Military Review

Technical descent: Project 20386 Corvette was removed from the boathouse

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Technical descent: Project 20386 Corvette was removed from the boathouse
And this is it again. Drawing of the alleged project 20386 corvette, originally "Daring", now "Mercury". Drawing of TsMKB "Almaz"


In the first half of March 2021, a new turn took place in the fate of the Project 20386 Mercury "corvette" ill-fated for the Navy (before that - "Daring").

PJSC "Severnaya Verf", as they say in official documents, "carried out a technical launch" of the unfinished hull into the water. Well, or more simply, I pushed this monument to how you can't build ships from a building site in order to free it up for building other ships. Before trying to guess what this is connected with, let's briefly recall history this project.

At the beginning of "glorious" deeds


In the early 2010s, when the 20380 corvette was replaced by a project 20385 corvette with MTU diesel engines and a RENK transmission, somewhere in the depths of the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau, an ingenious plan to create a modular corvette was born. Presumably (in order to avoid conflict situations, we will not say unequivocally), this set of brilliant ideas mainly came to the head of I.G. Zakharov, Rear Admiral, former head of the 1st Central Research Institute of Shipbuilding, and then - Deputy Chief Designer of TsMKB. I. G. Zakharov has repeatedly stated his views in the press. As an example, let's take the publication of an interview with I. G. Zakharov on the website flotprom.ru in 2012 "The formula of the corvette remains unchanged":

The series of ships of the "Guarding" class is coming to an end, the modernization has passed and the construction of the upgraded ship - 20385 is underway. We already see that the pace of equipment generation change dictates the need to update this ship too. And somewhere by 2020, we will have to present not just a modernized ship, but a ship of a different generation.

What will make it different?

The ship will become somewhat larger, but it will keep the same cost indicators, and the principle of modularity will be implemented in it.

Another question - now ships are increasingly involved in special operations. For example, it can be the landing of troops, the deployment of inspection teams to fight pirates or the deployment of humanitarian operations (as a hospital or to evacuate victims of any disasters), mine risk management.

To do this, today we propose to create special rooms - and this is a global trend (we call them transformer rooms), which can be transformed in a short time due to the use of container and other mobile means and allow the ship to solve these problems. This will be their characteristic.

This is how it all began. In 2013 I. G. Zakharov took the post of vice president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC. At that moment, a series of diesel corvettes, which was mastered by the industry with great difficulties, was doomed.

Then the synergy of events began.

First, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral V.V. Chirkov, traveled to the United States, where he was convincingly demonstrated all the advantages of modular LCS ships.

'Admiral Jonathan Greenert, Commander of Naval Operations of the United States Navy, shows the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Viktorovich Chirkov, models of American ships. Ginert's finger points to a model of the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer from the first series (without a hangar), and he is holding a model of the Freedom-class littoral warship (LCS). Modular. The photo was taken in early 2013, and soon the modular-container architecture burst into the Russian Navy. Apparently this is a coincidence. Photo: US Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Peter D. Lawlor

It is difficult to say why the Americans did this - after all, by that time, the concept of modularity was failing with a bang. It is not on purpose that they are so with us, because then Crimea was still Ukraine, and everything in relations with the United States was good? They couldn't deliberately harm us, right?

It is also unknown whether Viktor Viktorovich believed the Americans. Trusting the Americans is a rather strange idea, in principle, and for the Russian military it is all the more strange, so we will not say anything unambiguously either. But modularity from that moment just burst into our shipbuilding and became mainstream for a long time.

And then “Zaslon” JSC entered the topic - an organization that, in theory, was supposed to supply multifunctional radar systems to the Navy ships. In practice, JSC "Zaslon" supplies the Navy with products (MF-radar), similar to multifunctional radar systems, which, however, in "room" conditions can sometimes reach (when firing SAM MF-radar) in their performance characteristics to the level of the SAM " Wave "of the times of" early Gorshkov "(well, not quite reach, because unlike the MF-RLK, the" Volna "air defense missile systems ensured the defeat of maneuvering targets. Slightly modern engineers did not catch up with their grandfathers).

All specialists knew about these problems in advance, but for the public it will be revealed in all its acuteness later. For anyone interested, you can read the articles of M. Klimov "Thundering" and others. Will our fleet receive effective ships of the near zone " и “The Leaky Umbrella of the Fleet. Technical analysis of the firing of the Thundering "... And then the energy of the guys from "Zaslon" and their "friends" at the Almaz Central Design Bureau became another of the driving forces of the new ship, which was yet to be born.

In 2013, a year before the Crimean events, in the press the following message has slipped:

“The main thing that does not suit us is the too high price and excessive armament - the Kalibr cruise missiles, which work against sea and ground targets. Project 20385 does not meet the requirements fleet", - said the interlocutor of the publication. According to him, the estimated cost of one ship is about 14 billion rubles, but in reality it can reach 18 billion. For a corvette with a displacement of 2,2 thousand tons, although made using stealth technology, this is a lot. The equally modern frigates of Project 11356, which are now being built for the Black Sea Fleet, have a displacement of almost twice as much - 4 thousand tons, and cost the same.

The frigates of this project are ships of the open sea, with a significant range, and the corvettes 20385 are intended for the near sea zone. Sailors believe that such a powerful weaponlike "Caliber" to these small ships unnecessarily.

Thus, plans to stop the production of corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 began to be implemented even before the Crimea (although later officials claimed something completely different), and the above persons and groups of persons played a significant role in this (although everything was not reduced to them, as to 20386) ...

In 2015, I. G. Zakharov, in a joint article with the head of the Almaz Central Design Bureau, A. V. Shlyakhtenko, made an important confession. The article "Corvettes today and tomorrow" in the publication "National Defense" we find the following passage:

“The practice of the second decade of the new century posed a number of new questions for naval sailors and designers of surface combatants. Their essence lies in the significant expansion of the functions assigned to these ships. Now, in addition to the traditional tasks: the fight against surface ships, submarines, air defense, fire support for the landing forces - they must provide search and destruction of mines, patrol and observation in the economic zone, protect oil production and fishing areas, conduct search and rescue operations, provide assistance to those in distress, and carry out other missions.

Taking into account the requirements for limiting the displacement and cost of corvettes, the way out of this situation is seen in the idea of ​​using replaceable weapons. "

What's the catch?

And the fact is that the listed "series of new questions", together with the previously existing old "questions", does not require any modularity, but requires a small compartment at the disposal of the BCH-3, which could store uninhabited underwater vehicles for mine clearance and a small primitive crane for launching them. Another rack with a control panel. Everything. Moreover, as a last resort, all these things can be provided on almost any warship without an additional compartment.

Based on this false thesis, the following sequence of priorities is announced in the article:

1. For the sounded list of tasks, modularity is needed (in fact, not).
2. The most suitable option for modularity is, sorry, container.
3. To put containers into the ship, you need to allocate a large area for them (a compartment in the stern and a helicopter lift, for example).
4. Since a lot of space is needed, the composition of the armament must be reduced, otherwise modularity will not fit (compare armament 20385 and 20386).
5. Also, for the same reason, it is necessary to reduce the crew (and this, obviously, will complicate the fight for survivability in battle, and very much) - for the sake of modularity.

That is, the principle "modularity at any cost, and the rest - as it turns out" was put at the forefront.

At the same time, the need for high speed was justified, which means a gas turbine power plant. We will return to the GEM.

This is how the story began. IG Zakharov wanted modules at any cost, Zaslon JSC wanted an innovative radar with antenna canvases in the superstructure. Almaz apparently wanted another new project. A number of people wanted to make money on this. And V.V. Chirkov at a certain moment wanted to agree on all this.

In the fall of 2016, the ship described in the article was laid down at the Northern Shipyard under the name "Daring". Its chief designer was I. G. Zakharov, "in combination". The dream of building a modular ship began to come true.

Cancer tumor


It is worth briefly describing the features of the project for those who did not follow the course of events.

On the ship, instead of GAS "Zarya" used on corvettes 20380 and 20385, there is a modification of "Platinum", the energy of which is significantly lower and the target detection range is also.

The advantages of Platina-M begin when an external low-frequency illumination is used, even with a towed GAS LFR, since its operating range includes lower frequencies than that of the Zarya. But without this, it is significantly inferior to "Zarya".

The 20386 armament composition is almost similar to the 20380 corvette (remember that for the sake of modularity, the armament composition needs to be significantly reduced), with a small difference - the artillery systems are less effective than that of the old 20380, but 4 more anti-aircraft missiles. The rest is the same. Against the background of 20385 with eight "Calibers" (and even "Zircons" in the future), "Mercury" looks frankly pitiful.

The helicopter was placed in an under-deck hangar with a lift, like on an aircraft carrier. This is an expensive and technically complex solution, which is nevertheless necessary - otherwise the containers will not get into the modular compartment. The latter, located under the flight deck, often turn out to be a thing in themselves, since the launching of the payload from these containers is hampered by the overlapping side ports of the boat.


Stern section of the project 20386 corvette. It can be seen that no payload from the containers can be lowered into the water while the boat is in its proper place. Drawing of TsMKB "Almaz"

At the same time, a dilemma arose - either a 40-foot container on a helicopter lift, or a helicopter. That is, in fact, for the sake of container modularity, a helicopter is thrown from the ship!


A special problem is the placement of the antenna sheets of the radar complex on the sides of the superstructure, which is made of composite materials.

Many experts believe that due to the inevitable deformations of the superstructure when moving in waves, the canvases will “play”, randomly changing their position, which will make accurate shooting impossible. True, it may be possible to solve the problem by constantly aligning the antennas. It is possible to find out whether this is so or not, as well as whether it is removable (if the problem turns out to be real), only after the ship is built. That is, the Navy has to take the inevitable risk of getting an incapacitated ship, just to find out how it will turn out.

But even if everything works, nothing will work anyway. The ship lacks a long-range target detection radar. At 20385, also with the "Zaslonovsky" radar station, the "Fourke" radar station was abandoned for these purposes. At 20386, the Fourke functionality does nothing. Strictly speaking, it is not at all clear how they are going to shoot from this ship? Moreover, it is even less clear how this ship should hit air targets without radio correction of the missile defense system, which was not originally equipped with multifunctional radar systems from JSC "Zaslon"? There is also no information that the RK SAM is envisaged for 20386.

Placing radar canvases on the superstructure aggravates the situation on the other hand. The Americans came to a similar decision in their time. And then the Chinese. But the fact is that their radar antennas are so huge that they cannot be placed on any mast, this is a necessary measure. And they stand at the same time on high superstructures made of steel, on heavy ships, which reduces the deformations of the hull and superstructures to values ​​that are not problematic for the radar. At the same time, their radio horizon is in any case less than that of the radar station on the mast - the antennas were forcedly removed down to the superstructure, and not because they wanted to.

In the case of 20386, they were removed to the "playing" superstructure precisely because they wanted to, the radio horizon on these ships is lowered without any purpose, just so that a box similar to the "Zumwalta" superstructure would rise above the ship, for aesthetic reasons. It was possible to design the superstructure in a different way.

The bottom line is that it will be very difficult to shoot at low-flying targets even when the radar is working. They will simply be detected too late - the antennas are too low.

The main power plant is a major problem. This installation is made very strange for a battleship.

A little clarification needs to be made here.

There are schemes with electric propulsion, when diesel generators or turbine generators on board the ship provide electricity to low-speed main electric motors (PMMs), which run on shaft lines. The advantage of such systems is low noise, which is especially important for anti-submarine ships. Also, in such schemes, sometimes there are no reducers, if it is not necessary to ensure the operation of the gas turbine installation on the shaft line. The downside is the huge mass of low-speed electric motors, hundreds of tons, and their large size.

There are well-known diesel-gas turbine systems, where a gear transmission provides either joint or alternate operation of a diesel engine or a turbine on a shaft.

Systems with partial electric propulsion, similar to those used on the project 22100 border ship, are not applicable on a warship. Their main advantage is that in the patrol mode, the diesel generator is enough for the travel, and for power supply, and in the patrol mode, this ensures fuel economy. Such a ship "lives" on patrol course 90% of its "life". The battleship does not have a patrol mode, and the power of electricity consumers is many times greater.

What did the designers of the Almaz Central Design Bureau do?

They went their own, untouched path. The architecture of a diesel-gas turbine plant was taken, that is, a turbine for afterburner, an electric motor for an economy drive and a gearbox that ensures their joint work. However, instead of a diesel engine with a gearbox, a high-speed electric motor was put to work.

That is, the GED here is not a heavy, low-speed machine that can turn the propeller, but a small hummer, the torque of which is raised by the gearbox, and it (which is logical) converts the speed. Less revs - more torque. Such an installation has all the disadvantages of a conventional diesel-gas turbine installation - a noisy gearbox, noisy economical engines (a high-speed GED is not the quietest mechanism). Plus equipment for controlling electric motors.

At the same time, the efficiency of such a scheme is a priori lower than that of a diesel engine operating on a gearbox due to one "extra" energy conversion. This power plant has combined the disadvantages of different types of power plants, but not their advantages.

At the same time, the designers of "Almaz" were not able to supply such engines that would correspond to the required parameters of the ship in terms of power. And they set "what happened." As a result, they missed the mark with power: the electric motors used are too weak for this ship with a towed GAS released to have a sufficient search speed. And the speed of the economy passage will be low there. The ship has larger dimensions than that of 20380, and the power of the hydroelectric engines is less than that of a pair of diesels 20380. 20386 has the total power of the two main electric motors - 4400 hp. with., and in 20380 a pair of diesels at a maximum can produce 12000 liters. with. "Loud" with such power ran at a speed of 20 knots. With what hull, larger in terms of basic dimensions, will the "Mercury" run without turbines? Of course, part of the "problem" will be played out by the obviously more "high-speed" contours of the hull. But which one?

Most likely, he will have to constantly walk "under the turbines" in order to have an acceptable speed (including the search speed with the towed GAS "Minotavr"). And this is a significantly increased fuel consumption and, consequently, money. And, most importantly, a radical reduction in range. The fleet usually put such ships on hold, solving problems with more budgetary means.

Here it is worth saying something good about this power plant - it has an inter-gear transmission, which allows the ship to turn two shafts with one turbine. Apparently, the search passage on this ship (if it is completed) will be under one turbine at incomplete power, working on both shafts. But building everything else for that plus is the wrong strategy.

But that's not all.

The 6RP gearbox for this ship should be produced by OOO Zvezda-reductor at the same capacities as the RO55 gearbox for Project 22350 frigates. They also have a lot in common in their design.


And this means the following - in order to produce a series of "corvettes" 20386, the series of frigates of Project 22350 will have to be discontinued. And this is the only serial ship in our country capable of performing tasks in the Far Sea Zone without restrictions. Moreover, it is a truly powerful ship capable of performing a wide range of missions, a carrier of modern guided missiles of the Caliber family, as well as the Onyx and Zircon anti-ship missiles. Comparing it to 20386 is just a mockery. But the fleet will nevertheless de facto have to choose.

And this is the main intrigue of 20386 - it is actually not a corvette that is being made, but an extremely poor replacement for the successful frigate of Project 22350. The question is - why?

Similarly, you will have to choose who to "give" the M-90FRU turbines to. They are needed for both 22350 and 20386.

Completing all this horror, we add that this "wonderful" ship is also very expensive.

In the well-known report of PJSC Severnaya Verf, a figure of 29,6 billion rubles appeared for this ship. But the fact is that the lead ship is usually financed not directly through the shipyard, but through the design organization. Thus, it is not all money. Moreover, the volume of rework of this project after 2016 was very large, and it also cost money.

Evil tongues from the relevant circles claim that the cost of this ship is already approaching 40 billion rubles. Meanwhile, a more or less simple diesel corvette, armed much better than the 20386, can even now be built for about 18 billion. And it will be cheaper in operation. The head 20385 at the start of the tests was worth 22,5 billion in 2019 prices.

In fact, the cost (taking into account the ongoing alterations) of 20386 has already come close to 22350, with absolutely disproportionate combat capabilities!

There are rumors that the ship was going to be "chicked" under the "insert" into it of the 3C-14 launcher for "Caliber". If so, then the price tag would be guaranteed to be higher than that of frigates 22350, which are “born in a normal way”, in contrast to this “unique” project. And which, unlike him, are real warships.

All this, however, did not stop the project.

History of shame


What was further known.

For two years nothing happened to the ship. And there were chances to stop this project at the cost of minimal losses for the country.

This was written in articles “Worse than a crime. Construction of corvettes 20386 - error " и "Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam".

According to a number of experts, in the period following the publication of the second article, changes were made to the design of the ship.

In 2018, in the fall, the ship began to actually be built. A little later, the Ministry of Defense threw out a trick with its ears - it renamed this ship to "Mercury" and, according to some informed sources (presumably - strictly presumably!) Tried to present to President V.V. Putin the case as if the docking of the blocks of the "Daring-Mercury" hull - this is the bookmark for a new ship. For the history of this alleged scam, see article "The shipbuilding mystery of 2019, or when four equals five"... The scam, however, presumably "did not take off", and allegedly had to pass off the icebreaker "Ivan Papanin" for the promised President the fifth ship of the DMZ, which is not really intended for the DMZ, although it has a long range.


Docking of the sections of the "Mercury" hull. The very event where he was supposedly supposed to be passed off as a new ship, but, again, presumably, someone warned the president. Photo: Alexander Polunin, sudostroenie.info

In parallel with this "sawmill" TsMKB "Almaz", using the "backlog" created during the design of 20386, began an attempt to enter the development of ships of the 1st rank, presenting an enlarged version of "Mercury" with a reinforced composition of weapons. About this in the material “Is alteration of the project 20386 planned?”.

All this time, the Navy defended the concept of 20386. Correspondence with the Navy regarding this project is given in the article “A victory of common sense: the corvettes are back. Bye for the pacific ".

Meanwhile, the corps of the "Mercury" continued to stand at the "Severnaya Verf" not fully formed. It is reliably known that the supplier of 6RP gearboxes for this miracle ship (OOO Zvezda-Reduktor) has just started assembling this gear. That is, in a finished and tested form, it will not appear tomorrow.

Zvezda-Reducer, which is the only manufacturer of gearboxes for naval power plants in the country and suffers from ineffective control, is handing over new designs, not to say that quickly. Optimistic calculations show that it is possible that the gearbox will be ready this year. Pessimistic - what's next.

Let us repeat an important point - the enterprise began to manufacture 6РП after the power required to create this transmission was temporarily "freed" from the production of components for gearboxes for the next frigate of Project 22350. And this despite the fact that frigates are being built, and gearboxes are needed for them ... The miracle corvette crosses the road to normal ships, but there is nowhere else to delay - the hull cannot wait for the main power plant forever.

In addition, there may be questions about other parts - about the composite superstructure, which, at large dimensions, must be rigid enough to carry the radar canvases. And on the very RLC, which is made by the same people who made the complexes for "Thundering" and "Aldar Tsydenzhapov", with all the ensuing consequences.

And finally, at the "Severnaya Verf", apparently realistically assessing the prospects of the "ship of the future", they simply pushed its hull out into the water. So that it doesn't take up space. We carried out a technical descent.


Here he is, an orphan, at the wall. April 4, 2021, photo: Curious, forum user forums.airbase.ru

Aftermath


Now the "monument" will not be in the boathouse, but at the wall. This is really the first good event with Russian corvettes since 2016.

Why good?

Because a building site has been freed up, on which something useful can theoretically be built.

The Mercury hull will have to stand for a long time. Even if Zvezda-Reduktor resolves the issue with the reduction gear this year (which is not a fact), even if other systems and components are ready, now it will be necessary to wait for a new place for completion. And one should not think that the launching of the Strogo will definitely solve something - it is quite possible that the reduction gear will not yet be ready for this moment. And when it’s ready, it’s not a fact that there will be free space.

The death of this project will be an unconditional boon for the Navy. Let's not forget that thanks in large part to this project, we have not laid ships of the near sea zone capable of fighting submarines for almost five years.

This "Daring-Mercury" was the reason for this, because the society would have to explain it like this: after the hyped super-ship of the future, it had to take a step back. Now, the townsfolk have simply forgotten about the advertising of those years, and the enthusiasts who follow the shipbuilding are too few in number to create a negative public opinion for the Ministry of Defense. 20386 has been erased from the consciousness of the people, now it is time to erase it from reality.

The damage from this project to the country's defense was phenomenal.

For the money, this is the loss of two full-fledged diesel corvettes, be they rationally designed. This money has already been wasted. And they cannot be returned. But it is better to lose this money than to lose both of it and more money that will be needed to complete the project. And they will be needed, and a lot. The same guys from "Zaslon" sincerely believe that their defects and marriage can be eliminated only at the expense of the state. And they are not alone.

In terms of time, as mentioned above, this is a loss of five years, during which nothing was done for our anti-submarine defense. At all.

Now that everything is already to such an extent obviously, the Ministry of Defense just needs to find an opportunity to finish off this project, write off the costs and forget about it as a bad dream. Build something different, sane on this case, or cut it into metal, and that's it. Firing a few switchmen, jailing a few more, and closing the issue for good.

It's a shame. Yes, and it is indelible. But attempts to torture the "Mercury" all the same will end in even greater disgrace. And it will also be indelible, just more. It will be tough politically. And it will not do without prejudice to the careers of many. But an attempt to finish building this ship will end in even greater damage to the same quarries. After all, then there will be tests, and the final price tag will be approximately clear. And then what to do? And on top of all this will be the real time for which this ship was built. In this case, our effective leaders have nothing to lose: we must "cut without waiting for peritonitis."

It's time to just stop denying the obvious and move on. Moreover, all those involved have already mastered the budget. The money has been received. Those who propelled this ship no longer need it. And those officers who still stop this scam will no longer have serious problems in the service because of the discontent with them among the "respected people". Well, if only a little. Dear people have already got what they wanted, mostly. And none of them wants to stand under the rubble of this undertaking.

The exception is I. G. Zakharov, who wanted a modular ship, and did not receive it. But something can be solved with this.

After all, everyone knew what was behind this project, so why wait?

The Ministry of Defense has a whole series of corvettes on the way, with inoperative radar systems, and a manufacturer who will never be able to finish them. An entire non-combatant fleet.

There will be enough problems without Mercury, and it is better not to aggravate them.
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  1. Eldorado
    Eldorado April 7 2021 18: 03
    +12
    And thank God!
    1. Machito
      Machito April 7 2021 19: 56
      +5
      For Mercury. Without clinking glasses. drinks
      1. avg
        avg April 7 2021 20: 45
        +6
        Quote: Bearded
        For Mercury. Without clinking glasses.

        For the glorious brig "Mercury" with three "Hurray!" But for those who, without thinking, or out of meanness, this glorious name flutters - do not pour!
        1. Machito
          Machito April 7 2021 22: 37
          +8
          It's not a sin to drink for the glorious brig Mercury. drinks But the miracle corvette Mercury is just the top of the dough cut.
          1. avg
            avg April 7 2021 22: 57
            -4
            I think that this is why they called him, so that it would be more convenient to cut.
  2. Ru_Na
    Ru_Na April 7 2021 18: 20
    +22
    Well, it's good that they abandoned this project 20386 scam! The ship is not only expensive, the price tag is at the level of frigates 22350, although the corvette itself is not even close to it, it is also at the level of corvettes 20380 in terms of its characteristics and is much inferior to its fellow 20385! Of course, its main feature was modularity, but as life and the example of the US Navy have shown, modularity is good on paper, in practice it is terribly expensive and inconvenient!
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 18: 38
      +33
      Until they officially refused, moreover, they may still try to finish building it according to the original project. The gearbox "Star-gearbox" is sawing. I am here, rather, urge than spread the insider.
      But the series, apparently, will not be, and this is very good.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 April 7 2021 19: 11
        +3
        although I remember Klimov stated with no alternative that he would be the only future for the fleet .. and it would be a shame if frigates were abandoned in favor of sixes ... In general, at the moment, the basis of the fleet will be the Fives hi
      2. Thrifty
        Thrifty April 7 2021 21: 19
        +5
        Timokhin - to finish building it purely as a training ship, on an electric ship, so that he can carry cadets over relatively short distances, a couple of hundred miles maximum. It will be bad if they decide to belch at him, the warship will not get out of him.
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 7 2021 22: 16
          +7
          Well, I suggested something like that.
      3. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl April 8 2021 00: 25
        +1
        For the money, this is the loss of two full-fledged diesel corvettes, be they are rationally designed.
        well, so we have, etc. 20380 to name exactly - rationally designed, at least difficult (!)... yes
        20385, certainly better, but even more expensive, and at the same time is just as slow-moving (!).
        Apparent efforts for the early development and launch of promising diesel engines of the "D-500" family (for 8000 hp) into series are not being undertaken ...
        project 11664 as a reasonable alternative for - rational design (for new TTZ, including "misfires 20380 and 20385") is not considered ...
        the fleet keep pushing 20380, judging by the fact that at the "Army-2020", state contracts were knocked out on them (!) ....
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 8 2021 01: 26
          0
          project 11664, as a reasonable alternative for - rational design (for new TTZ, taking into account "misfires 20380 and 20385"), is not considered.


          Vladimir, the MOST project had a different number. The last figure is different. Calm down please.
      4. bayard
        bayard April 8 2021 02: 52
        +12
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        But the series, apparently, will not be, and this is very good.

        Very bad conclusions follow from this whole story ... It just so happened in our Fatherland that the top leadership of the Navy, together with industry and design organizations, did (and continue to do) everything so that Russia does not have a Fleet. Everything necessary to sabotage the implementation of the fleet rearmament program was done, and instead of a fairly decent grouping of new ships by the end of 2020 ... there is almost nothing.
        And if the delay in the construction of frigates 22350 is still an excuse in the absence of a power plant after the coup in Ukraine, then everything else is pure sabotage ... of a very well-coordinated criminal group. This sabotage is especially expressive in the construction of anti-submarine forces in the near zone ... Here, in general, they approached the matter creatively - comprehensively and inventively.
        And the epic with this "rekorvet", just the height of cynicism and outrage over common sense
        ... To be honest, I was not familiar with the features of his "outstanding and revolutionary GEM", but after reading its description today ... belay ... I'm shocked gentlemen ... This is HUTSPA in a cube.
        As a result, over the entire period of the existence of the shipbuilding program for the rearmament of the Fleet, in 12 years ... what do we have?
        - two frigates,
        - a handful of corvettes, moreover, variegated in armament and equipment (avionics, radar),
        - one conditionally combat-ready MAPL \ SSGN of the "Ash" type,
        - half the norm of the expected number of SSBNs of the "Borey" type,
        - a flock of MRK type "Buyan" and "Karakurt" ...
        - yes 8 diesel-electric submarines of the antediluvian project, without BUGAS, without new torpedoes and anti-torpedo protection ... on the old energy ...
        yes, and perhaps all of the ships of new construction, having at least some kind of combat value ...
        There is still a problem with naval aviation ... especially with anti-submarine ... reconnaissance ... patrol ... MRA ... even just fighter ...
        There are no AWACS aircraft.
        Mistake ?
        Negligence?
        Incompetence?
        Of course not .
        Even middle school students would not have done such nonsense.
        Intent?
        The idea?
        And of course very unkind ...
        Sad
        But it would seem that the country has a Supreme Commander-in-Chief ... the Minister of Defense with his own Ministry ... the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy and his High Command ...
        Just take and burn a lot of time and money ... in a seemingly threatened period ...
        Leave the country unarmed ...
        ... With a fragmentarily rearmed Army ...
        And how "Hurray" do not shout, what parades do not roll ... defense does not arrive ...

        No, something has been done, of course ...
        That's just, if you look closely ... it is always like with the "Barrier", or this very - "Mercury", not remembered for the night ...
        ... Can't get drunk?
        ... If it were that simple ...

        After all, even the fact that this hull was thrown out of their boathouse does not yet guarantee that common sense won ... And even the fact that the construction of 20385 was resumed (which is certainly very good) does not guarantee that full-fledged corvettes will ever enter service ... with such and such a "Shield" ... made of gold with diamonds ... but not working ...
        1. antivirus
          antivirus April 8 2021 07: 32
          -1
          many years ago - missiles in civilian containers - threw everyone and that Zakharov.
          stealth, modularity. etc. now no longer in honor. but tried to play scouts - a peaceful tractor in an okiyan suddenly receives 2-5 containers (?) and goes to save Vinisuela or the Bahamas. destroy Guam or Diego Garcia. I threw empty containers - and sunbathe again.
          1. bayard
            bayard April 8 2021 08: 00
            +10
            Stealthy deployment containers are good. And on civilian ships such is possible. But you don't need such foolishness on warships. Modularity is justified only for more convenient modernization of ships - for easier dismantling / mounting of equipment and weapons.
            Everything else is from the evil one.
            And for exclusively sabotage purposes.
            The history of the USSR knew a long period of its history, when the head of the KGB was the main saboteur and enemy of the Soviet state and people ... And even earlier, his uncle was the same enemy and in the same position ...
            It looks like now we had something similar in the Navy.
            In any case, a uniform crap with this freak 20356, this stubborn and deliberate nonsense is nothing but deliberate and sophisticated sabotage.

            And containers in Venezuela and Cuba are a good idea.
            But not public.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 April 8 2021 11: 39
              +6
              When they recall the situation 7-10 years ago, for some reason they often forget that the INF Treaty was then.
              Regarding sabotage in the navy, don't be so upset. Not everything is so simple.
              Against the background of 20385 with eight "Calibers" (and even "Zircons" in the future), "Mercury" looks frankly pitiful.

              Timokhin knows that the Mercury project is quite different from the Daring project. He knows that on Mercury, unlike Daring, there are 2 UKSKs and that it is not necessary to throw out a helicopter on Mercury to place the CD.
              But the photo and arguments in the article used the old ones. hi
              Comparison of "modern frigate" 11356 with 20385 is very ambiguous, IMHO.
              What's the use of 11356 sailing far away? What can he do there, besides showing the flag?
              Rhetorical question. Everything on this topic has already been said before me.
              Similarly, you will have to choose who to "give" the M-90FRU turbines to. They are needed for both 22350 and 20386.

              I certainly agree that 22350 (especially with 4 UKSK) is "our everything". But why do we have to choose who to give the turbines to? I do not know what prevents our management from investing money in their production and significantly increasing it.
              I will not invent anything on this topic.
              Evil tongues from the relevant circles claim that the cost of this ship is already approaching 40 billion rubles.

              Estimation of the cost of Mercury is based mainly on emotions, IMHO.
              In general, there are a lot of emotions in this story.
              Take, for example, the assumption that the littoral ships were built by the States to confuse us. lol
              It is difficult to say why the Americans did this - after all, by that time, the concept of modularity was failing with a bang. It is not on purpose that they are so with us, because then Crimea was still Ukraine, and everything in relations with the United States was good? They couldn't deliberately harm us, right?

              And I will grab a lot of minuses for my post.
              But I will remain with my opinion that everything is not so stupid and hopeless with 20386 as stated in the article. hi
              1. bayard
                bayard April 8 2021 17: 42
                +1
                Quote: Alex777
                Regarding sabotage in the navy, don't be so upset. Not everything is so simple.

                In our imperfect world, in general, everything is ambiguous, and I'm definitely not going to smear everyone with one tar. But this whole story from 20386 is pure sabotage.
                Absolutely EVERYTHING associated with this freak.
                And I have never heard a single intelligible and professional argument for all these years for this "miracle of engineering fantasy".
                We talked a lot. But absolute nonsense.
                And the nonsense is clearly malicious.
                Any such story has its own intelligence.
                This one has such signs - darkness.
                And not a single intelligible pros.
                No one was able to explain WHY such a ship is needed, what are its goals and objectives, why it is exactly SUCH, and why EVERYTHING that is planned on it through the sirloin.
                The Navy does not need THIS.
                And THIS cannot be explained by greed alone.
                Only - treason.
                Quote: Alex777
                Comparison of "modern frigate" 11356 with 20385 is very ambiguous, IMHO.
                What's the use of 11356 sailing far away? What can he do there, besides showing the flag?

                And what is there to compare?
                The DMZ ship was built according to the export (!) Option as an escort frigate, and the BMZ corvette, the main task of which is PLO and the protection of the water area.
                Quote: Alex777
                But why do we have to choose who to give the turbines to? I do not know what prevents our management from investing money in their production and significantly increasing it.

                There is not so much a problem in the turbines themselves as in the gearboxes. The gearbox has not been produced in Russia before, these are only the first experiments and not a single one has yet been tested on the fly (I'm not talking about operation). And the complete cycle turbines are also new, but not as critical as the gearboxes.
                The trouble there is that the limited capacity for gearboxes for 22350 was tightened for the sake of producing the horror that is being prepared for 20386. It would be better to bet on this misunderstanding of the power plant from 22350, although the speed would be decent, and the Kolomna low-speed diesel engines do not make much noise. But there really is - through the ass and into an eversion ... noisy, with a monstrous loss of power ... WHY?
                And this is definitely not out of stupidity.
                Quote: Alex777
                Estimation of the cost of Mercury is based mainly on emotions, IMHO.

                No, the expected price was called there. And it is already close or equal to 22350.
                Why do we need this ugliness?
                BMZ needs PLO and OVR corvettes. There is a quite balanced (not without speed problems) 20385, but we also need a cheaper one, exclusively for ASW with moderate AA defenses.
                And nonsense about the "corvette of the far sea zone" belay ... it's just an oxymoron. There is a FRIGATE for this. And frigate 22350 is the best we can have for that.
                Quote: Alex777
                Take, for example, the assumption that the littoral ships were built by the States to confuse us.

                Yes, they confused themselves - after the "victory in the Cold War."
                And then us. But on purpose - in order to start up a dead-end path.
                And they succeeded, because - treason. and cheating with very good monetization.
                Quote: Alex777
                And I will grab a lot of minuses for my post.

                As you can see, no.
                Quote: Alex777
                But I will remain with my opinion that everything is not so stupid and hopeless with 20386 as stated in the article.

                Everyone has the right to make mistakes.
                But the truth is dearer.
                I choose - the truth.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 April 8 2021 21: 10
                  +5
                  But this whole story from 20386 is pure sabotage.
                  And I have never heard a single intelligible and professional argument for all these years for this "miracle of engineering fantasy".
                  We talked a lot. But absolute nonsense.
                  And the nonsense is clearly malicious.

                  Your position is clear.
                  As you can see, no.

                  Surprised pretty much.
                  Everyone has the right to make mistakes.
                  But the truth is dearer.
                  I choose - the truth.

                  You and I have close positions on many issues.
                  Let's see if, over time, progress will occur in this matter. hi
        2. Non-fighter
          Non-fighter April 8 2021 19: 11
          +1
          The reason is that our fleet lives under the motto "There will be no war anyway." The last time the fleet was preparing for war was during the Cuban missile crisis. I was there in the early 90s and I don't think anything has changed.
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 8 2021 21: 40
            +1
            Yes, that's right.
            Moreover, not only the fleet. In our country, both the apparatus of the Ministry of Defense are very strongly affected by this, and the industry.
  3. marchcat
    marchcat April 7 2021 18: 39
    +15
    Under Stalin, all these "creators" would have expected hard labor for sabotage.
    1. kapitan92
      kapitan92 April 7 2021 21: 13
      +13
      Quote: marchcat
      Under Stalin, all these "creators" would have expected hard labor for sabotage.

      They were expected to be shot, not hard labor!
      1. marchcat
        marchcat April 7 2021 21: 36
        +1
        Hard labor, at least.
      2. kig
        kig April 9 2021 18: 43
        -2
        Under Stalin, this article would have served as a pretext for arrests. Under Stalin, many engineers and designers were repressed, whose ideas did not give the expected results, and at the same time those who could not work together with their bosses. It is unlikely that you, kapitan, would want to live under Stalin. Or they would live without sticking out and not speaking out in the press. Well, perhaps by order.
        1. kapitan92
          kapitan92 April 9 2021 23: 48
          +2
          Quote: kig
          ... It is unlikely that you, kapitan, would want to live under Stalin. Or they would live without sticking out and not speaking out in the press. Well, perhaps by order.

          Unfortunately, I can't even call you by name, you have "nickname or drove", whatever you like! Are you afraid to speak at the forum under your own name?
          I was born in the early 60s, and you don't need to scare me with Stalin, my parents lived during Stalin's time, I was born in the USSR, received an education, served, worked.
          Many people who were born in the 80s are now trying to argue about how bad life was in the USSR, having absolutely no idea.
          Stalin is the history of the country, these are mistakes, these are victories, this is the Army, this is the nuclear shield of the USSR.
          What is happening now is not slovenliness and not theft, it is a betrayal and betrayal of the national interests and defense of the country.
          Quote: kig
          Under Stalin, many engineers and designers were repressed, whose ideas did not give the expected results.

          Can you list the names of those designers and inventors who perished in Stalin's camps?
          1. kig
            kig April 10 2021 03: 10
            0
            Quote: kapitan92
            You can list the names of those designers and inventors who disappeared in the camps

            I actually said "repressed", not "disappeared". These are slightly different things. Quite a bit different. As for the names, Korolev, Glushko, Taubin, Stechkin immediately come to mind. You yourself can find out about them if you show interest.
    2. Ratmir_Ryazan
      Ratmir_Ryazan April 7 2021 23: 48
      +4
      Under Stalin, that there were no failed projects?

      Or maybe under Stalin they managed to prepare for the war properly?

      Both under the tsars and under Stalin and everyone in the world had, are and will have projects that will turn out to be unnecessary, expensive and ineffective.

      This is not a mistake, this is an experience, experience that will be taken into account.

      And then it will be clear what and how there.

      Su-47, for example, did not go into production and that, too, wasted money in vain? No, not in vain, we got experience and understanding of what is possible and what is not. Some of the done will be used in other projects.

      It is impossible to build only good ships, planes and tanks. It is impossible not to make mistakes when doing something.

      In the meantime, indeed, if you choose between Project 22350 and Project 20386, then the frigate is indisputably more needed. And then it will be clear what is there and how. There will be an opportunity to make more engines, it's okay if the corvette of project 20386 is completed according to the original plan.
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 8 2021 00: 25
        +3
        It is good for you to say this, you will not rake the situation with a completely incapacitated ship.
        1. NKT
          NKT April 8 2021 11: 03
          -1
          And if you look at the situation from the other side. We need corvettes, especially these? Maybe it’s better not to build them at all and switch all power to the construction of a huge series of Project 22350 frigates?
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 8 2021 11: 07
            +3
            No, there is a gap in that money in the country is limited and if frigates are thrown for simple tasks at BMZ, then they will not be enough.
            1. dranthqu
              dranthqu April 15 2021 23: 57
              0
              Looks like a checkmate problem. optimization: you can estimate a set of resources (money, production capacity, available forces, available technologies and weapons - there is enough information in open sources); you can estimate the tasks and requirements (do we want to fend off the Ukrainian and Georgian gunboats? do we want to build anti-aircraft defense bastions? do we want to be able to find and destroy the KUG / AUG in certain areas?); on the basis of this, I believe, one can try to calculate the optimal composition of the fleet for ships of different classes (conventionally a minesweeper / corvette / frigate / ...).

              Without such models, everything somehow does not add up to the system, or it does not add up with a big creak. How many UKSK per frigate do you need? How many missiles are on SSBNs? Which of the existing SACs is better for providing PLO? Etc.

              Take the previous speaker, "We need corvettes, all the more so like these? Maybe it's better not to build them at all and switch all power to the construction of a huge series of frigates of Project 22350?" Mat. models can show that "for tasks A, project 22350 is equivalent to 5 corvettes, for tasks B it is generally out of competition, and for task C it is better to 20386" foot containers, then he will handle it better)
          2. Ratmir_Ryazan
            Ratmir_Ryazan April 8 2021 22: 18
            +1
            A corvette for the defense of its coast, and a frigate for long voyages.

            We need a lot of corvettes so that they can control a large area near our shores and above water and under water, and frigates will be used in operations at a great distance from our shores.

            It is expensive to build frigates alone; it’s like producing only trucks, so that you can transport sand on it and also taxi.
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 April 10 2021 12: 07
              0
              Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
              It is expensive to build frigates alone; it’s like producing only trucks, so that you can transport sand on it and also taxi.
              Expensive? But in the article they write that the new corvette comes out with the same money.
              1. Ratmir_Ryazan
                Ratmir_Ryazan April 10 2021 17: 17
                0
                This corvette of project 20386 comes out at the price of a frigate, and corvettes of project 20380/20385 are about half of the cost of a frigate of project 22350.
        2. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl April 8 2021 19: 04
          0
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It's good for you to say that you will not rake situation with completely incapacitated ship.
          ahahaha ... but not completely, And 3/4 incapable (without PLUR, without air defense, and without speed) corvette 20380 (!)how and who will rake ? Who will be attracted for the fact that let the fleet expensive junk ?
        3. Ratmir_Ryazan
          Ratmir_Ryazan April 8 2021 22: 21
          +1
          What to rake there?

          They will make one corvette of Project 20386 and will use it, they will reveal in practice all the pros and cons of such a ship, and then it will already be clear where to move in the construction of corvettes.
      2. bayard
        bayard April 8 2021 03: 09
        +2
        Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
        There will be an opportunity to make more engines, it's okay if the corvette of project 20386 is completed according to the original plan.

        Isn't it enough for you that this project has already done?
        Stop the construction of anti-submarine ships for five years ?!
        That instead of producing gearboxes for the power plant of project 22350, they are making a “no analogue in the world” power plant with monstrous (!!!) inefficiency and characteristics ?!
        Yes, to weld all the authors and initiators of this project into his ("Mercury") corps tightly ... until the fair trial of the Military Tribunal. Which they certainly deserve.
      3. ramzay21
        ramzay21 April 8 2021 09: 36
        +1
        Under Stalin, they were preparing for war, and not for parades as it is now. The situation is more reminiscent of 1905, an even parade line of stupid ships, satisfied respected people and then Port Arthur and Tsushima ...
      4. Alex777
        Alex777 April 8 2021 16: 09
        +2
        This is not a mistake, this is an experience, experience that will be taken into account.

        Creation experience will certainly come in handy.
        This is the first project of a Russian surface ship, which will include a gas turbine unit with partial electric propulsion. As an experimental one, in fact, it won't be cheap, alas.

        There will be an opportunity to make more engines, it's okay if the corvette of project 20386 is completed according to the original plan.

        It is already being built not according to the original, but according to the improved one.
        The addition of 2 UKSK significantly strengthened the ship.
        And his seaworthiness with autonomy is normal.
        Another thing is that such a corvette would make sense if the frigates were built according to the project 22350M (48 VPU). But for now, about 22350M, silence and it looks like an ordinary 22350 with 32 VPUs - this is what they decided to stop at. hi
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 8 2021 21: 39
          +1
          The addition of 2 UKSK significantly strengthened the ship.


          There, as it were, the deck is already laid and in it there are only openings for the "Redoubt" and the shoulder straps of the tower.
          Where is there UKSK?
          1. Alex777
            Alex777 April 8 2021 21: 42
            +1
            There, as it were, the deck is already laid and in it there are only openings for the "Redoubt" and the shoulder straps of the tower.

            Send the link - I will look with interest.
            It is difficult to imagine that the GDP, when re-laying, about 4 VPUs was interpreted, but they are being built with 2. hi
            1. timokhin-aa
              April 8 2021 22: 39
              0
              And did you talk about it with the GDP when you bookmark it?
              Here's about



              But about the GDP:
              https://topwar.ru/166729-korablestroitelnaja-zagadka-2019-goda-ili-kogda-45.html

              The link in the article came in handy.
              1. Alex777
                Alex777 April 8 2021 22: 42
                0
                I, of course, read this article even when it was written. wink
                Let's see how it all ends. hi
        2. Ratmir_Ryazan
          Ratmir_Ryazan April 8 2021 22: 24
          0
          I read that this year they plan to lay down the first ship of project 22350M
          1. Alex777
            Alex777 April 8 2021 22: 27
            0
            They won't. The boathouse for construction is scheduled for completion in 2022. hi
            https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10633515
  4. Ilya091
    Ilya091 April 7 2021 18: 43
    +1
    often turn out to be a thing in themselves, since the launching of the payload from these containers is hampered by the overlapping side air ports of the boat.

    To launch, as I understand it, it is necessary to install the container on the platform behind the boat. Judging by the image, it is not necessary to remove the boat, in the attached picture (it turned out crookedly repeat ) drew an approximate path for the container, in the end the crane is movable there, and the unit behind the containers is "tilted" from above, or if the dimensions of the boat and container allow the container to be held over it.

    And regarding the withdrawal from the boathouse, I heard that they want to transport the mercury to another boathouse, so there is a possibility that the author is happy early.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 19: 11
      +9
      And what are they going to do there? Latsports are right next to the boats, there is no separate launching equipment.
      1. Thrifty
        Thrifty April 7 2021 21: 22
        -4
        Containers could be made one-time, made of plastic, the weight would come out less, and ideally it is better to make them foldable, and sectional - one container for one rocket, and the section can be recruited on the deck even from 8-12 containers.
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 7 2021 22: 17
          +5
          Is the space for the container on the ship also made of plastic? And it has mass.
      2. Bashkirkhan
        Bashkirkhan April 7 2021 21: 27
        +2
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        There is no separate launching and lifting equipment.

        hi Is this pribluda a launching device?
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 7 2021 22: 15
          +8
          Is, how)
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. timokhin-aa
            April 8 2021 15: 42
            0
            It could be worse.
            1. Igor K
              Igor K April 8 2021 18: 21
              +1
              The decision to drown was implemented uncompromisingly.
    2. Titus_2
      Titus_2 April 8 2021 06: 58
      +1
      Are you going to ride the ace on the floor? Such mechanisms require hydraulics guide drives and so on.
    3. alexmach
      alexmach April 8 2021 14: 16
      0
      Maybe everything is a little simpler - the boat is back and the container is in its place?
    4. Phoenix
      Phoenix April 8 2021 14: 54
      +2
      The ship is very, very small, in just fresh weather the container, barely tearing itself off the deck on this crane, will turn the entire hangar and cannot be held back by anything. Smooth on paper, at sea, even on large ships on a normal crane, it is very difficult to work, not to do such nonsense ...
  5. Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 April 7 2021 18: 47
    +11
    It's already disgusting to read about our Navy! Continuous disappointments! Just raise your nerves! Better not to know, not to hear! Do not see! Painfully!!!
  6. Kotus
    Kotus April 7 2021 18: 52
    +4
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    The gearbox "Star-gearbox" is sawing.

    Hello Alexander! Still - sawing, finishing or just sawing?

    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 19: 09
      +10
      Let's just say the process is underway, it just won't be fast.
  7. rjpthju
    rjpthju April 7 2021 18: 56
    +6
    Still, Stalin's sharashka worked perfectly. Scientists and engineers were held accountable for their results. And now, to correct your marriage - only at the expense of the budget. At one time (USSR 70s - 80s) I worked on an expedition. You plow the whole field season (work piece-work), earn ... You arrived at the end of the season, calculate the tolerances, work performed. Out of clearance? Drive at your own expense, redo.
  8. donavi49
    donavi49 April 7 2021 19: 08
    +11
    They went their own, untouched path. The architecture of a diesel-gas turbine plant was taken, that is, a turbine for afterburner, an electric motor for an economy drive and a gearbox that ensures their joint work. However, instead of a diesel engine with a gearbox, a high-speed electric motor was put to work.


    Well, what other option?

    We take any rationalization proposals at the level of Karakurt and make the IPC - even more criminal. For there are incredibly loud 112 cylinder assemblies. He drowns himself on the move, and yells at the whole district who should be killed, even Kim's boat can conditionally or unconditionally sink him.

    Or use the tube tactics from the 70s - one listens, the other walks, then back.

    An electric ship under quiet diesel generators or even a battery (like the Koreans, for example, although it would seem that Kim's boats roar at the entire yellow sea) is the absolute minimum for a modern anti-submarine. And Russia is the only country with a large fleet, which has no horse in this direction.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 19: 13
      +11
      We take any rationalization proposals at the level of Karakurt and make the IPC - even more criminal. For there are incredibly loud 112 cylinder assemblies. He drowns himself on the move, and yells at the whole district who should be killed, even Kim's boat can conditionally or unconditionally sink him.


      A group of such ships with towed GAS will track Kim's Boat at a distance five times higher than its torpedo range.

      And our electric ship turns out the other way around - Loud. With such a scheme, the power plant.
      1. D16
        D16 April 7 2021 20: 51
        +3
        And our electric ship turns out the other way around - Loud. With such a scheme, the power plant.

        This steamer does not need electric motors to search for enemy submarines. They fix the main jamb of the power plant pr. 1135. These are trolling motors for maneuvering in tightness, mooring, etc. At 1135, these functions were performed by the GTU through a through transmission with all its inherent haemorrhoids at low speeds. In general, this project is similar to the reincarnation of patrol 1135. What makes you think that there will be no observation station at 86m? What do you think is the bucket on the superstructure between the mast posts? It will track the approaching targets and transmit them to the Shield as they enter its area of ​​responsibility. Why do you think that the superstructure's load-bearing frame will not be rigid enough to mount the radar blades? It is probably tied to the power set of the case and, if desired, this box can be made quite rigid. Composite sheathing does not play a significant role in providing superstructure rigidity. In general, 1135 was a very successful ship, built in a large series.
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 7 2021 23: 31
          +5
          This steamer does not need electric motors to search for enemy submarines. They fix the main jamb of the power plant pr. 1135. These are trolling motors for maneuvering in tightness, mooring, etc.


          Fuck. 4000 hp is it too much for mooring? Let me remind you, "Perry" on two auxiliary electric motors of 380 hp each. on calm water he gave 5 knots.

          This is unlikely to be true. Either you are mistaken, or some sick comrade invented this GEM.

          What makes you think that there will be no observation station at 86m? What do you think is the bucket on the superstructure between the mast posts?


          And here you go and tell me. Judging by the location of the "bucket", some twilight genius also drew it. Is the mast that "surrounds" it at least plastic, if it is a radar?

          Why do you think that the superstructure's load-bearing frame will not be rigid enough to mount the radar blades?


          I don't think so, very high-ranking people in our shipbuilding think so.
          And you didn’t understand. First, this is an assumption, and this is clearly stated in the text.
          Secondly, for fastening, it can be quite rigid, but to maintain the position of the canvases relative to the ship and each other?

          In general, 1135 was a very successful ship, built in a large series.


          I would not call it successful. It had good speed, it was very good for tracking, but otherwise it was a very unbalanced ship, unsuitable for battle with other NKs, with weak air defense, without a helicopter, but for some reason with two 76mm.
          The contours were good there. And so, I would think about luck.
          1. D16
            D16 April 8 2021 07: 49
            -2
            Fuck. 4000 hp is it too much for mooring? Let me remind you, "Perry" on two auxiliary electric motors of 380 hp each. on calm water he gave 5 knots.

            And you don't need to walk at a speed of 10-15 knots? I repeat that EVs cover the most uncomfortable power range for GT. The quality of gear processing has become better, and the measures for soundproofing the units did not start to be adopted from the submarine fleet yesterday.
            And here you go and tell me. Judging by the location of the "bucket", some twilight genius also drew it. Is the mast that "surrounds" it at least plastic, if it is a radar?

            RP materials have existed for a long time, judging by the layout, there is nothing heavy on it and there will be no big windage either.
            I don't think so, very high-ranking people in our shipbuilding think so.

            Do these dignitaries have a last name and track record? How many composite superstructure ships have they designed?
            for fastening, it can be quite rigid, but to maintain the position of the canvases relative to the ship and each other?

            That is, the very possibility of the existence of ties in a box-like structure, horizontal and vertical bulkheads, increasing its rigidity, you completely deny?
            I would not call it successful.

            Unsuccessful ships do not become a workhorse and do not go through so many upgrades and are not built in such a series.
            He had a good speed, it was very good for tracking

            This is the main task of the patrol ship. The armament on it changed as new numbers appeared after the five in the index. Well, 11356 as the pinnacle of evolution with the new Calm and BUGAS is quite a frigate for its own money. In fact, the main thing is the platform itself, with a reserve for upgrades.
            1. timokhin-aa
              April 8 2021 08: 35
              +1
              Do you need to walk at a speed of 10-15 knots?


              It happens that you need it. But it is a combat ship, if anything, and for such things as changing the search / patrol area, moving to the designated area, you need a high speed of ECONOMY. At the same "Gromkoy" on the same echelon - 20 knots, should he urgently run to the anti-submarine line, he will do it at normal speed and without horse fuel consumption. And after Mercury you will have to drive a tanker.

              RP materials have existed for a long time, judging by the layout, there is nothing heavy on it and there will be no big windage either.


              So do you know or wishful thinking? The materials exist, but they did not guess to make a radio-transparent mast on the same old 20380.

              Do these dignitaries have a last name and track record? How many composite superstructure ships have they designed?


              And there is and designed, but please do not wait for details.

              That is, the very possibility of the existence of ties in a box-like structure, horizontal and vertical bulkheads, increasing its rigidity, you completely deny?


              Of course not. I just assume that with this one could fly a little. and only tests can show whether I am right or not, that is, a high technical risk was initially included in the project.

              Unsuccessful ships do not become a workhorse and do not go through so many upgrades and are not built in such a series.


              Well, how is it - 1135 survived and was built.

              This is the main task of the patrol ship.


              In peacetime. And then there is the military.
              Have you forgotten about it? You are not from "Almaz" by chance? And then there are such skilled pacifists.
              1. D16
                D16 April 8 2021 22: 04
                0
                if he urgently ran to the anti-submarine line, he would do it at normal speed and without horse fuel consumption. And after Mercury you will have to drive a tanker.

                Should Mercury urgently run, he will run faster. Specific consumption M90FRU 230-240 g / kWh. Specific consumption 10D49 211 g / kWh The difference is not so dramatic. In addition, Mercury will have a propulsion unit with a CPP. It has a larger displacement and fuel tanks. And a 5000-mile range.
                but on the same old 20380 they did not guess to make a radio-transparent mast.

                Which one? Have you seen the dead zone on the ICO 20380?
                In peacetime. And then there is the military.

                So it is made modular in order to load everything you need in wartime. If it does not burn out, numbers will appear behind the six. There would be a good building with a power plant, and it is never too late to feed it. laughing
                1. timokhin-aa
                  April 9 2021 11: 22
                  +3
                  I see, you are one of the guys who feeds from this sawmill.

                  in order

                  Should Mercury urgently run, he will run faster.


                  At max. power. But then another question arises - at what distance.
                  Your 5000 miles is clearly not at full power. Rather - calculated crawling at 11 nodes on the ED. Yes?
                  And the transition to the search area must, on the one hand, be carried out quickly, on the other hand, it is necessary so that later the fuel remains for the fulfillment of combat missions.
                  Will you provide this on Mercury? For example, you will have to flee from Vladik to the fourth Kuril breakthrough, to stop the submarine breakthrough into the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.
                  How will it be there?

                  20380 of the Amur construction on two diesel engines easily runs at 20 knots, instead of the supposed 14 economy drive. And this hack?

                  Which one? Have you seen the dead zone on the ICO 20380?


                  Saw. Have you seen a dead zone on Karakurt? That's the same, guys.

                  So it is made modular in order to load everything you need in wartime.


                  This illusion has consistently failed wherever it appears.

                  the question is - why step on a rake that has already been hit on the head by the Danes and Americans? Are you a supporter of the fact that you cannot learn from the mistakes of others?

                  Well, yes - for the cost of one Mercury, you can build a pair of 20380, and with the jambs of this project removed.
                  The question is - can one ship perform the tasks of two?
                  Question 2 - is one anti-submarine unit better for defense capability or two for the same money?
                  1. D16
                    D16 April 9 2021 23: 38
                    0
                    I see, you are one of the guys who feeds from this sawmill.

                    From car service lol
                    At max. power.

                    There's a pass-through there. So half of the maximum power. The CPP should enable the GT to work in the optimal mode.
                    calculated crawling on 11 nodes on ED. Yes?

                    Not everyone is a marathon runner, someone has to go in for race walking and catch-up. He will walk fast on one turbine. Two very fast laughing Each ship is designed for certain needs of the fleet and why do you think that the people who make up the requirements understand the topic worse than you? And don't forget about the CPP. This thing, as a gearbox, will allow the GT to work in optimal mode.
                    Saw.

                    Share your revelation? From which mast? If from the grotto, then this is inevitable. regardless of the material of manufacture. It's not just painted black laughing
                    Have you seen a dead zone on Karakurt? That's the same, guys.

                    And there is no normal observation station. This is microAegis lol .
      2. D16
        D16 April 7 2021 21: 00
        -2
        A group of such ships with towed GAS will track Kim's Boat at a distance five times higher than its torpedo range.

        Yeah. Only in good weather. laughing
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 7 2021 23: 31
          +2
          Nonsense does not need to write.
          1. D16
            D16 April 8 2021 07: 52
            -2
            OGAS has serious restrictions on excitement.
            1. timokhin-aa
              April 8 2021 08: 16
              +3
              Everything has serious restrictions on excitement, but the difference between restrictions and "only in good weather", as it were.
              1. D16
                D16 April 8 2021 22: 11
                0
                Everything has serious limitations on excitement

                In this regard, OGAS is the most problematic. Excitement 3 points is good weather.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  April 9 2021 11: 23
                  0
                  Buks. GAS is used by small ships up to 4 points, some destroyer could drag by 5.
      3. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl April 8 2021 19: 29
        +1
        ... we take Karakurt and make the IPC
        ,
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        A group of such ships with towed GAS will track the Boat
        a group of such ships, you will wait a very long time (!)... So far only handed over four "Karakurt", out of the contracted eighteen !!!
        Calculate the rate of arrival of engines (GEM) for them ... for shipbuilders, and estimate when they move to the beginning of the construction of "high-profile MPK-Karakurt" ... ? !! at least in 7-8 years? !!
    2. bayard
      bayard April 8 2021 03: 24
      +2
      Quote: donavi49
      We take any rationalization proposals at the level of Karakurt and make the IPC - even more criminal. For there are incredibly loud 112 cylinder assemblies. He drowns himself on the move, and yells at the whole neighborhood, who should be killed,

      If we take the "Karakurt" body as a basis and stretch it to 1300 - 1700 tons, and as a power plant, take a ready-made one from 20380 - 24 l / s on low-speed diesel engines, then everything may well work out. And the speed will be decent, and the fish will not go deaf.
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl April 8 2021 22: 05
        +1
        Quote: bayard
        If we take the "Karakurt" building as a basis and stretch it to 1300 - 1700 t., and as a power plant take ready-made from 20380 - 24 l / s on low-speed diesel engines, then everything may well work out. And the speed will be decent, and the fish will not go deaf.
        sw. Vitaly, hi , then just insert this GEM in pr. 22500, add BUGAS, and don't bother with "Karakurt 22800" ... !! there is even a place for a turntable (!). wink
        1. bayard
          bayard April 9 2021 00: 53
          0
          hi It is unlikely that this will happen, the type of the main corvette has already been chosen - 20385 and transitional 20380. It's too late to rush about. But there is hope and opportunity (for Putin was shown a similar model) to get the so-called. "small corvette", or IPC in VI of the order of 1500 tons, with a normal speed, symbolic air defense, but good PLO with BUGAS. And for a helicopter - a maximum landing / take-off area. That is inexpensive, a lot and it is for PLO.
          If they are engaged in such a ship, it is better to just take a ready-made power plant from 20380 - it is serial, but it will allow it to have a speed of 30 knots, and it will not make much noise with low-speed diesel engines.
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl April 9 2021 01: 02
            0
            Quote: bayard
            This is unlikely to happen the type of the main corvette has already been selected - 20385 and transitional 20380 ... It's too late to rush
            mean selected way to overpay for an incompetent ship due to its higher price (and that means the possibility of "getting more from that big thing" !!) .... approximately from 5 to 8 billion rubles, for each unit (OVR / PLO) for the fleet ... ?! clearly !!!
            1. bayard
              bayard April 9 2021 04: 11
              -1
              If we abandon the obscure "Barrier" in favor of the radar station that is sane in terms of price and capabilities, then the price will not be so depressing.
              But you can earn more on the "Zaslon".
              request Capitalism.
  9. fa2998
    fa2998 April 7 2021 19: 17
    +8
    We build so little, but after such news, we want to spit! We built, built, and threw it away! Time and money. angry hi
  10. Hog
    Hog April 7 2021 19: 18
    +2
    IMHO will be completed according to the revised project with weapons from 20380/20385 and they will forget about it.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 23: 37
      +6
      And with a power plant from 22350. It would be the best option, if it was completed.
      1. bayard
        bayard April 8 2021 03: 30
        +4
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And with a power plant from 22350. It would be the best option, if it was completed.

        laughing Yes, the option is really the best, only it would be better to make a museum out of it - "Museum of bureaucratic greed, stupidity, meanness and betrayal."
        And the stuffed animals of the authors and initiators of this project are there - as exhibits ... stuffed with straw ...
        But the power plant from 22350 would really be just right for him - both the speed is good (over 30 knots), and the noise is low on the economical run and in the search.
  11. Kotus
    Kotus April 7 2021 19: 25
    -2
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    And our electric ship turns out the other way around - Loud. With such a scheme, the power plant.

    Why should he be quiet? winked
    If there is no UKSK, then everything is "logical". By the way, it was worth mentioning this moment in the article, since "Daring Mercury" is still a corvette, which means PLO OVR is the difference in range between MTT and 91R.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 23: 35
      +8
      Why should he be quiet?


      Well, first of all, it's beautiful ...

      But seriously, then on the one hand, the anti-submarine man, oh, how much will not interfere with the secrecy, and secondly, if not quiet, then why then the electric movement? Make it even more expensive?

      In terms of range, this is understandable, an anti-submarine without an anti-submarine missile. Well, let's just say, if we had normal helicopters, if we had two on board, let our hands use them as the Americans do, and something could have been done without the PLUR.
      But this fact would not have canceled the jambs of the project.
  12. Soldatov V.
    Soldatov V. April 7 2021 19: 40
    +4
    And who is now looking at the USC from the Navy? Not Admiral Chirkov? How does he comment on what is happening with the "Mercury".
  13. Aleksandr97
    Aleksandr97 April 7 2021 19: 56
    +4
    As the post resonates with the message from the press on 15.07.2019/20386/XNUMX: "The next ship will be the corvette of project XNUMX" Mercury ", on which a significant area, the so-called transformable feed, will be allocated for changeable types of load. As a result, we will get a ship -" Swiss utility knife ".
    Yes, the "knife" turned out to be just like the Swiss Navy winked
    The state armament program for the fleet most likely should be no less than 15-20 years, so that there are no such "frivolous" throwing ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 23: 33
      +6
      The state armament program for the fleet most likely should be no less than 15-20 years, so that there are no such "frivolous" throwing ...


      So it was written right up to 2050. To the point ...
  14. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 April 7 2021 19: 57
    -1
    my opinion is that it is necessary to reduce the nomenclature of ships, 1 type of frigate, 1 type of corvette, and I note that it is necessary to reduce the range of weapons, including electronics, for a corvette and a frigate it should be identical weapons and filling and nomenclature, it seems to me that a corvette is a frigate without a shock complex caliber, that's all, it will not go far, its main task is anti-aircraft missile defense, and self-defense air defense
  15. Kotus
    Kotus April 7 2021 19: 59
    +1
    Quote: V.
    How does he comment on what is happening with "Mercury".


    It is unlikely that he will comment on this, since the "" Glavkomat sees no prospects in the creation of ships previously designated as the "OVR Corvette". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now performed by coastal surveillance equipment, stationary hydroacoustic stations ... Instead, it is planned to create patrol ships.
    I don't know what happened to FOSS in the East, but the hole in the North was never officially closed. There is no optimistic information about "Sviyaga" and "Vyatka" in Kerch.
  16. Brenneke
    Brenneke April 7 2021 20: 29
    +3
    "Cut to hell without waiting for peritonitis! .."
  17. bandabas
    bandabas April 7 2021 20: 50
    +1
    Let's wait on April 21. What will "sound" the GDP in the next blah blah blah.
  18. Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter April 7 2021 21: 34
    +4
    They lowered and lowered.
    For NW, it's just moving the hull around the area. In order to free up production capacity for more urgent and realistically feasible orders.
    Here, a whole epic from the usual / ordinary production process was lit ... what
    With far-reaching consequences and conclusions! request
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan April 7 2021 21: 51
      +3
      Well, yes, the same buildings 22800 were transferred along the rivers for completion. By the way, Art was installed on "Storm"
      1. Petrol cutter
        Petrol cutter April 7 2021 21: 56
        +4
        This is already my "baby". Thanks. Pleased the old man.
        1. Bashkirkhan
          Bashkirkhan April 7 2021 22: 03
          +3
          I remember. In the video at the end, there will be "Storm" in the corner. In front of him is "The Tempest", already with cars, soon on running.
    2. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 23: 32
      +6
      In order to free up production capacity for more urgent and realistically feasible orders.


      That's right - really doable. What am I talking about?
  19. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo April 7 2021 21: 40
    -7
    Launching a new ship is still launching.
    Even if it is "technical".
    Completed, there will be a combat unit. Let it be imperfect.
    But another pennant, another crew, through which more than one call will pass. And this is both a trained reserve and the transmission of glorious traditions.
    So it's a reason to drink to the Russian fleet.
    You can not clink glasses (in every sense).
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 7 2021 23: 33
      +3
      Completed, there will be a combat unit.


      Believe me, this is still a very big question - will this unit be really combat.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo April 8 2021 07: 46
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Believe me, this is still a very big question - will this unit be really combat.

        This means that it will be a combat training.
      2. Marconi41
        Marconi41 April 8 2021 12: 17
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Completed, there will be a combat unit.


        Believe me, this is still a very big question - will this unit be really combat.

        Each country should have its own Zumwalt. Fortunately, our project is not that big. And to make a training ship on the basis of its hull is a very bright idea.
        1. timokhin-aa
          April 8 2021 14: 35
          +4
          The point is that while the fat one (USA) dries, the skinny one (we) will die. We cannot afford Zumwalt.
  20. YOU
    YOU April 7 2021 21: 47
    +4
    There have been too many articles and other praises lately glorifying 20386 as the only possible future of the Russian Navy. Apparently someone really wants to continue the series, or create public opinion of the "martyr and guardian" in order to avoid responsibility for this shame.
  21. Vladshat
    Vladshat April 8 2021 06: 22
    0
    It would be interesting to look at the shot of the deflated hull taken from above. If there, in front of the superstructure, they will really install UKSK 3s14 for 16 cells ,, Caliber ,, then this will change the matter. Corvettes pr. 20380/20385 and frigate pr. 11356, Admiral Grigorovich, remain astern. ,, Mercury becomes a competitor to the frigate pr.20350 ,, Admiral Gorshkov ,, The helicopter on ,, Mercury ,, can be lifted from the hangar and installed on an open helipad, securing with guy wires. He fulfills his task. In the vacated hangar, it is also an open hold, you can install the launch modules of the Redoubt air defense missile system, 16 cells will stand there unambiguously. Plus 16 standard cells located on the tank. Total 32 missiles. This is as an option for providing air defense for a group of ships. If a strike operation is planned, for example, shooting at Syria, then 3s14 modules with 16 cells ,, Caliber .. Plus 16 standard cells can be inserted into the hangar-hold. A total of 32 missiles in a salvo. This is more than that of ,, Gorshkov. and competes with pr. 20350M ,, Admiral Amelko ,, Behind the superstructure, on the sides on the main deck, you can put two 20-foot containers. There is a place for them and they do not block the hangar lid. Hangar access is retained. The containers can contain missiles, Uranus, or some kind of radio-technical systems or electromagnetic or laser or some new powerful GAS that are dropped overboard and other equipment. When hunting for submarines, Mercury switches to electric motion, which significantly reduces its acoustic field and which is not found on other ships. And this is a big plus. Temporarily, the corvette can take on board a second helicopter to search for boats. One stands on the hangar lid or hangar, and the other on the helipad. During the landing operation, Mercury has high-speed landing boats. The corvette is equipped with additional cockpits for the Marine Corps. There are also drones and robots, both airborne for reconnaissance and target designation, and surface and underwater ones for finding mines. The corvette project is interesting, breakthrough, it is undoubtedly necessary to complete it. The design idea should not stand still, and the school of domestic shipbuilding should develop. Even if some technical solutions are not justified, then a negative result is also a result and in the future they will no longer be used in design. The only corvette of Project 20386 needs to be completed. Let it cost like two corvettes of pr. 20380 for the price, but in terms of capabilities, they will be much inferior to him. Let's wait for the official launch of Mercury into the water. Some specific information will appear and then we will be substantively criticizing him.
    1. Simple
      Simple April 8 2021 09: 35
      0
      Quote: Vladshat
      Behind the superstructure, on the sides on the main deck, two 20-foot containers can be placed. There is a place for them and they do not block the hangar lid. Hangar access is retained.


      And how will the helicopter sit down and take off?

      In general, I did not know that Freedom - Klass served as a "role model" in the design of the project 20386 - there are also gearboxes of the German company Renk AG.
      1. timokhin-aa
        April 8 2021 09: 52
        +4
        This is not what the article says - Renk was supposed to supply the gearbox for the 20385. And the diesel - MTU.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Vladshat
        Vladshat April 8 2021 17: 56
        +1
        The helicopter will land on the helipad. It will not reach up to 20-foot containers, the feed is large. The blades are folded, the helicopter rolls onto the hangar cover and lowers it into the hangar. And also in the reverse order. But I don't really like the idea of ​​containers myself. Let's see what the ship industry will give out. The project changed along the way.
    2. timokhin-aa
      April 8 2021 21: 37
      +1
      You need to get acquainted with J.K. Rowling, write together Fantasy, something like "Harry Potter and the magic Russian corvette"
  22. musorg
    musorg April 8 2021 06: 33
    +2
    How many blunders on the Navy is bad and not serious. However, they throw money down the drain, and half of them are scammed. A SHAME!
  23. ramzay21
    ramzay21 April 8 2021 09: 23
    +4
    The main problem of our country is respected people. All this was supposed to end in real criminal cases with serious terms and the confiscation of the property of respected people and all participants in the scam, and while this is not the case, such scams will continue.
  24. Kotus
    Kotus April 8 2021 11: 42
    +2
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Well, first of all, it's beautiful ...

    I just made a bad laugh smile The message was that the "freak", in addition to the problems listed in the article, still does not have a long-range anti-submarine weapon. The paradox, however, is that if the UKSK were stuck on it, the damage to the fleet from 20386 would only increase with the addition of shock capabilities to the project.

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Well, let's just say, if we had normal helicopters,
    Alas, building a normal ship is much easier than poking a half-corpse of our anti-submarine component with a stick. sad
  25. Phoenix
    Phoenix April 8 2021 14: 57
    0
    The author has a lot of emotions in the article, full of "conclusions" and no sources at all. I would like to see on the basis of what "conclusions" are made, especially regarding the cost.
    The author, make it a habit to insert links so that it doesn't look like your personal interpretation or, God forbid, a fantasy.
    1. timokhin-aa
      April 8 2021 15: 31
      +6
      See the report of PJSC Severnaya Verf from 2018, it is available on the Internet.
      There, the amount passed through the SV for the construction is reflected. Well, the fact that funding goes through the ROC executor is the well-known established procedure.
      And from this it directly follows that 29,6 yards on SV is not all the money, not even close.
      In general, we have now begun to secret all this, and precisely so that such materials do not appear.
  26. 181msp
    181msp April 8 2021 21: 36
    0
    Not a scam, but a scam.
  27. rjpthju
    rjpthju April 9 2021 10: 05
    +1
    I wonder if anyone will answer for this profanity? After all, huge material damage has been done, plus the undermining of the country's defense (During this time, in this place, it would be possible to build a really necessary ship). I think they will quietly disperse and each will go to his place, sawing further our pie. So they will still feel like heroes, so they abandoned this project ... Damn, not the Ministry of Defense, but a sawmill.
  28. Skip
    Skip April 9 2021 15: 21
    +1
    Each participant has a name, surname and title.
  29. Arkon
    Arkon April 9 2021 15: 49
    0
    In practice, JSC "Zaslon" supplies the Navy with products (MF-radar), similar to multifunctional radar systems, which, however, in "room" conditions can sometimes reach (when firing SAM MF-radar) in their performance characteristics to the level of SAM " Wave "of the times of" early Gorshkov "(well, not quite reach, because unlike the MF-RLK, the" Volna "air defense missile systems ensured the defeat of maneuvering targets.


    The characteristics of the Barrier are classified. How does the author know that he does not have a radio correction channel? And if he doesn't know why this sarcasm and comparison with the antediluvian "Wave"?

    Where does this dislike come from?
  30. Stepan S
    Stepan S April 9 2021 15: 52
    -1
    The Ministry of Defense has a whole series of corvettes on the way, with inoperative radar systems, and a manufacturer who will never be able to finish them. An entire non-combatant fleet.


    That's how we live. Corrosion has corroded everything to the ground. Only personal interest and money at any cost are at the forefront. Well, effective managers, they are.
  31. junktowner
    junktowner April 10 2021 11: 09
    0
    Maybe try to sell it to Algeria or Vietnam - well, or who will "bite"? On the condition that the buyer buys a set of turbines for him in Ukraine?
  32. Alexandra
    Alexandra April 10 2021 14: 55
    0
    The downside is the huge mass of low-speed electric motors, hundreds of tons, and their large size.


    We have low-speed hydroelectric motors with the required power weighing a few tens of tons. But not for Zakharov's brainchild, but for ... tugs! :)))



    The inspirers of the project 20386 throughout this story demonstrated the competence of the level of the Marine Technical Committee (ITC), an organization at the end of the XNUMXth century that actively "prepared" the Russian Imperial Navy ... for Tsushima.
  33. anclevalico
    anclevalico April 12 2021 07: 45
    0
    How much dough was thrown into the wind?
  34. Victor Dubrovsky
    Victor Dubrovsky April 13 2021 18: 24
    0
    For some reason, our modular version of NK stubbornly communicates only with the United States. (It’s a habit, apparently ...) In fact, the FRG has been successfully building "modular" frigates for a long time, including for export. Can anyone tell us about this - positive, I think? - experience?