Military Review

Attack of the century myths

228
Attack of the century myths

Any heroic deed always has moral, propaganda and military aspects. And there is nowhere to get away from this: this is how people and the world are arranged. Even the designation of the "S-13" strike as the attack of the century carries all three elements.


If from a military point of view and in the twentieth century, I would still call the attacks of the century the sinking of the British battleship Royal Oak by the Germans in the Scapa Flow harbor, the sinking of three British cruisers of the German U-9 Weddigen and the attack on the aircraft carrier Taihu American submarine "Albacore". A matter of taste. I think these are the best in the world. Although you can mention other things. The latter was in 1982, when a British nuclear submarine sank an Argentine cruiser.

You can only take our submarines - the Soviet Navy. But here, too, there were different things, but centuries that were pulling on attacks: from the breakthroughs of babies into the fiords to the attack of Lunin's K-3 on the battleship Tirpitz, albeit unsuccessful, but masterful and desperate.

To widely advertise a single attack, albeit on a large, but auxiliary warship in range conditions ... No, of course, any submariners' campaign during the World War is a feat and mortal risk, who would argue. But feats are also different and of various scales.

Advertise right up to the film "The First After God", where a young, handsome and heroic captain wants to be killed by an evil security officer, and he performs a feat in spite of everything.

There is also an opposite opinion: the villain Marinesco drowned a peaceful civilian, almost a hospital ship. Moreover, this fake pops up regularly. And some believe in him. All this created such a layer of legends around the boat and its commander that it is difficult to figure it out - what happened on that January night in 1945?


Myth 1. Peaceful German tractor


Let's start with who was attacked by Marinesco?

It seems that everything is clear, the liner "Wilhelm Gustlov", on board which was ... More on that later.

But this ship was a liner before the war. And with the beginning of it - he became a hospital ship. But only for a year. In 1940, the ship was handed over to the Kriegsmarine and became the floating barracks for the school of submariners. Accordingly, the enemy's military auxiliary ship, not a hospital ship, was sunk (Gustlov had not been there for four years). Not a civilian liner, but a battleship carrying weapons (albeit symbolic) and camouflage livery. In addition, "Gustlov" was sailing at sea under the protection of the destroyer "Leve". And from the raid of the naval base Hel (the same, the former Polish).

And no atrocities, no Soviet crimes fleet there is no, how do not suck them out of your finger. During the war, a Soviet warship sank a German warship in the auxiliary fleet.

Why were the civilians taken out together with the servicemen on such a ship? A question for the Germans. This is a serious question.

In fact, the leadership of the Kriegsmarine put their own refugees under attack. Moreover, many times. In addition to the Gustlov, there were two more sunk liners. And in all cases, the ships did not fall under the Hague Convention.

There are, I think, two reasons: the haste, when the population of East Prussia was taken out, on which there is also a fire brigade. And ordinary cynicism - if drowned, then an extra argument for the propaganda of the mythical atrocities of the "Bolshevik hordes". And those who were not sunk will defend the Reich more fanatically, or rather, the skins of its leadership.

Myth 2. "Ten thousand couriers alone"


"The sinking of the liner" Wilhelm Gustloff "inflicted an irreparable blow on the submarine fleet of Nazi Germany, since the sinking killed such a number of submariners, which would have been enough to staff 70 submarines of medium tonnage. With this blow, the S-13 submarine under the command of Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco thwarted the plans of the fascist invaders at sea. "

Who was on the liner?

There are no exact figures, except for the military personnel. Killed - 406 cadets and instructors of submariners, 250 women auxiliary service of the fleet, 168 wounded Wehrmacht and 90 sailors of the ship's crew. The rest are refugees: from 4 to 10 thousand people.

Did this damage the Kriegsmarine?

Undoubtedly.

Could 70 crews be equipped with them?

Of course not.

Is our propaganda lying?

Again, no.

It was somehow a little difficult to count the passengers from the submarine on a January night, the Germans themselves did not share the data for a completely understandable reason, after the war the documents went to the Americans, they classified them. What we had was a British article published a long time ago by Miroslav Morozov, the best researcher stories of our fleet in that war:

"The 25000-ton German liner of the Power Gained Through Joy" company Wilhelm Gustloff, which evacuated 3700 submariners and 5000 refugees from East Prussia, was sunk after leaving Danzig, according to Finnish radio.
About 1000 passengers were saved.

According to the information received from the broadcast of Stockholm radio, the liner was hit by a torpedo and sank within a few minutes.

The article was picked up by the media of neutral countries. And she smoothly migrated to our officialdom.

Years in the 60s, when the world began to understand, and what was all the same in that war, in connection with the cooling of passions, the data, of course, surfaced widely, but ... It so happened that Marinesco himself was among the offended Stalin. And the S-13 attack is official. And there were no people willing to destroy the accidentally arisen myth. Moreover, basically something: the huge Kriegsmarine liner was sunk - a fact. There were submariners on it - also a fact. Everything is done according to the law of the sea - and again a fact. Why clarify the details? Like that it was a simple (against the background of other things) attack, in fact, defenseless from the threat from under the water of the enemy? There is nothing bad in this, of course, but also heroic - not enough.

And in those times, when the history of the war became the cornerstone of ideology, it did ... Moreover, our people were lazy, having dozens of hero-commanders of submarines, they all followed in the footsteps of the Soviet agitprop, making an enormous feat out of ordinary combat work. And the film later - for the mass audience gave the now popular touch of "victory in spite of". Like, a beast-like special officer on the orders of Stalin and Beria personally ... This Marinesko was strangled, strangled, and in spite of the authorities he took and won.

By the way, about the personality.

Myth 3. A knight without fear and reproach



Alexander Ivanovich Marinesko, born in 1913, Odessa, in 1933 graduated from the Odessa Naval School. Drafted into the RKKF, became navigator of Sch-306 "Haddock" of the Baltic Fleet. Since 1936 he was a lieutenant and chief officer of the submarine "L-1". Since 1939, the commander of the "M-96". He commanded well. In 1940, the boat was recognized as the best in the fleet. Marinesco was awarded a gold watch.

A career typical of those times. The submarine fleet grew exponentially, there were not enough people. And competent smart sailors quickly made a career.

But in the war, Lieutenant Marinesco was unlucky. Two military campaigns yielded no results. Although it is stupid to blame him. Sinking the enemy on the "Baby" is a matter of luck, not skill. The boats with two torpedo tubes and no autonomy were too poor.

Nevertheless, the simple service of the "Baby" was not - the landing of the DRG behind enemy lines, military campaigns, in one of which the boat crossed 26 (twenty-six) minefield lines ... As a result - the Order of Lenin and ... exclusion from the candidates in the ranks of the CPSU (b) with the wording:

"For systematic drunkenness, for the collapse of discipline, for the lack of educational work among the personnel, for insincere admission of their mistakes."

Which, however, did not become a hindrance to the promotion. The S-13 was removed for the indecision of the previous commander, although he actually won two victories. And they put our hero in 1943. Than saved both him and the boat.

The strategy of 1943, when our submarines broke through to the Baltic and died without purpose and purpose, is still waiting for its researchers. But this boat, in connection with the change of the commander, did not go on a campaign. The increase in the work style of the captain of the 3rd rank, Marinesco, did not affect:

It has been established that Comrade Marinesko A.I. On August 14, 1943, he got drunk, overslept, in the morning he was not present in the commission for receiving the submarine. For negligence in service, the commander of the 1st DPL was arrested for 2 days and kept in the garrison guardhouse.

Nevertheless, he was forgiven a lot, and was forgiven for the cause:

In 1941-1942, commanding an M-class submarine, he made several daring military campaigns, for which he was awarded the Order of Lenin. He controls and commands the ship perfectly. The officers and crew are well trained. The material part is in good condition, it is used correctly. Before Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco took command on the S-13 submarine, the crew was not united, the organization of the service was not adjusted, now this situation has been corrected by the commander, and the service on the ship is going well. Determined and proactive. Disciplined, but in everyday life requires constant supervision. Tactful. The state of discipline of the crew is quite satisfactory. The commander is demanding. He works to improve his knowledge and train his subordinates.

An experienced military officer, respected by the team, with one problem as old as Russia itself - systematic drinking. Because of them, he flew out of the fleet:

On January 5, 1945, during his stay in the port of Hanko for repeated unauthorized departure from the ship, drunkenness on the shore and communication with Finnish women, at your order, Marinesko was to be brought to trial by the Military Tribunal, but in connection with the upcoming combat exit of the submarine to the captain of the 3rd rank Marinesco the opportunity was given to improve, to atone for their guilt in a military campaign.

Returning from a military campaign, Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco did not correct his behavior and continued to behave extremely undisciplined.

On June 24, at 2 o'clock, he drank with the commander of the Smolny PB, Lieutenant-Commander Lobanov, made a fight, which attracted the attention of all the officers and personnel sailing on the ship ...

At the beginning of July, the S-13 submarine, as part of other submarines of the submarine, was relocated from the ports of Finland to the port of Libava (as in the document. - Comp.), Where the captain of the 3rd rank Marinesko, taking advantage of the absence of the DPL commander, from 10.07 also systematically began to make unauthorized absences in Libava, drinking, meeting with unknown women and bringing them to his base, where the submarine personnel are stationed. Due to the systematic consumption of alcohol in large quantities, recently Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco had several epileptic seizures.

Based on the foregoing, I consider the further stay of Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco in the position of submarine commander is impossible. The educational measures I have taken are completely exhausted.

For my part, I petition Captain 3rd Rank Marinesco to remove from his post and enter into a petition to the People's Commissar of the Navy for demotion and dismissal from the ranks of the Navy.

The commander of the Red Banner submarine of the KBF Rear Admiral Kournikov.

Because of him, he ended up in prison, already a civilian, for abuse of office under Article 109 of the RSFSR Criminal Code.

Was he the picture that was drawn later?

Of course not.

Was he a brave man and a military professional?

Yes.

Everyone has their own reaction to war, stress and separation from loved ones. He showed it in vodka, which ruined a good professional. And he was tough as a pro. And the attack on "Gustlov" is not an indicator.

By the way, about the attack.

Myth 4. Attack of the century


Tuesday at 21 o'clock. 10 min. 30.01.45/55/02, at W = 2 ° 18′11 D = 5 ° 280′18, the commander found a liner heading 20 ° in the area of ​​the southern coast of the Baltic Sea, with a displacement of 23–08 thousand tons. At XNUMX o'clock. XNUMX minutes attacked and sunk with a three-torpedo salvo. The hit of all three torpedoes and the sinking of the liner was visually observed.

The liner killed a number of events, and they began in the afternoon, long before the meeting with the "S-13".

First, the second transport of the Hansa convoy hit the wreck of the sunken Shelswig-Holstein and was damaged. Then a leak was discovered at the torpedo, and the guard from the scanty two ships fell to a completely ridiculous one. And then the commander of the ship decided to leave the deep-water fairway in the evening in order to avoid mines and attacks. aviation in the calculation that the speed of 12 knots will not allow the Soviet submarines to go on the attack.

As a result, the huge ship accelerated and went in a straight line, without even using an anti-submarine zigzag. I went to go straight to the "S-13". The rest was a matter of technique. In fact, the Germans unwittingly checked whether Soviet submariners were capable of sinking a target in the range conditions. For Marinesco, who later drowned:

The vessel was sailing at high speed (about 16 knots), variable course, at night, in poor visibility and with the lights off. His escort consisted of the T 196 destroyer and the TF 10 torpedoes. For four hours Marinesco maneuvered, knowing about the presence of the enemy only thanks to the data of the hydroacoustic station, and observed him only for the last 40 minutes. To pursue the target (according to Marinesko's assessment, the light cruiser Emden) had to be pursued at speeds from 12 to 18 knots. Due to the strong security, the volley was fired from a distance of 12 cables. The commander fired both "fish" from the stern torpedo tubes, and both hit.

"General Steuben" in much worse conditions - this task was one tooth. The rest is lyrics.

The Irony of Fate. An hour after "Gustlov" the heavy cruiser "Hipper" was to pass the same fairway. If everything went a little differently, and there would really be an attack of the century, with the sinking of the largest enemy warship in the entire history of the Soviet Navy.

Сonclusion


There is nothing to be ashamed of.

But when you see the lacquered biography of “Submariner No. 1” on The People's Feat, you remember others, the same masters, but not so lucky and not repressed.

And it's a shame that some of the good commander blinded an idol, and the second - an antihero.

And yet he was doing his duty. And the man had victories. And besides this attack.

Yes, and it should not be over-inflated. No, the Germans themselves set up the refugees. There is not even a shadow of guilt on us. But inventing non-existent crews of 70 submarines and other feats is also wrong.

Easier to say - the crew and the commander have done their duty professionally.

Still, a feat is the result of leadership mistakes. And Marinesco acted perfectly on that trip. Like many others in other trips, about whom you also need to remember.
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish April 11 2021 04: 54
    +22
    I liked the article, thanks to the author for a balanced and realistic approach.


    Sanitary transport "General Steuben".
    The transport sank 15 minutes later, with more than 3600 people killed (the following figures are cited: 3608 died, 659 people rescued) [3].

    “The salvo fired from the feed apparatus at 02:50 am was exceptionally accurate. Both torpedoes hit the target, the explosion was of such force that the cruiser sank within a matter of minutes (Marinesco believed from the silhouette that the Emden was torpedoing). From the bridge "S-13" two tall sultans were visible, and then one after another three more powerful explosions were heard - probably, the ammunition detonated. This time, Marinesco preferred not to maneuver in a submerged position, but, taking advantage of the confusion in the enemy's camp, to sharply break away from the attack area. Instead of an urgent dive, he commanded “full speed ahead!” And at full cruising speed under diesel engines went into the open sea. ”[4]

    Until December 1944, Steuben made 18 flights, evacuating a total of 26 wounded and 445 refugees.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 11 2021 04: 59
      +14
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Ambulance transport "General Steuben"

      Such "Steuben" was only similar in German documents. It was not painted like a hospital ship, it was armed, it was not even converted into a hospital. Typical military transport.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 11 2021 06: 13
        +15
        Hello Vladimir. hi
        Specially rummaged in the net in search of a photo of "Steuben", there is not a single photograph of it with the identification marks of a hospital ship on board, but there are several of them in camouflage.

        There is a text from the wiki:
        "During World War II, until 1944, the liner was used as a hotel for the senior command staff of the Kriegsmarine in Kiel and Danzig, after 1944 the ship was converted into a hospital and participated in the evacuation of people (mainly wounded soldiers and refugees) from East Prussia from the advancing Red Army. "(from)
        So, perhaps you are right.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty April 11 2021 12: 10
          +1
          Specially rummaged in the net in search of a photo of "Steuben", there is not a single photograph of it with the identification marks of a hospital ship on board, but there are several of them in camouflage


          It is possible that the photo was in camouflage before 1944.
          Then it does not prejudge anything
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 11 2021 12: 17
            +2
            I agree, does not prejudge, but also does not refute.
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              Vladimir Mashkov April 11 2021 21: 08
              +14
              The article is, of course, interesting.

              Only the author has grossly distorted the "attack of the century". Amazed that none of the commentators did not comment on the author's description of the "attack of the century" (it was such):
              “As a result, the huge ship accelerated and went in a straight line, without even using an anti-submarine zigzag. I went in order to go straight to the S-13. The rest was a matter of technique. In fact, the Germans unwittingly checked whether Soviet submariners were capable of sinking a target in range conditions . "

              After all, the matter was not at allas Roman describes! But as? It so happened that A.I. Marinesco (the changed surname of the Odessa citizen with Romanian roots by his father Marinescu), could not attack “Gustlov” immediately and he began to quickly leave. I had to surface and, with roaring diesels, chase the stormy sea at full speed in pursuit for several hours, risking being discovered every moment. It was successful because the observation on the Gustlov towards the coast was weak. At the end of the frantic race, the C-13 turned around and fired a three-torpedo salvo that sent the Gustlov to the bottom. This is NOT at all like Roman's description of the "attack of the century" or "sinking a target in polygon conditions"!
              1. Proxima
                Proxima April 11 2021 21: 39
                +5
                Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                Only the author has grossly distorted the "attack of the century". Amazed that none of the commentators did not comment on the author's description of the "attack of the century" (it was such

                I agree with YOU. While I was writing my post, only then I saw yours. It turns out that I was not the only one who was affected by the "polygon conditions".
              2. Comrade
                Comrade April 12 2021 02: 14
                +2
                Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                it was not at all the way Roman describes it!

                Incompetence in the topics covered is Roman Ivanov's calling card.
                1. Vladimir Mashkov
                  Vladimir Mashkov April 12 2021 11: 22
                  +3
                  Quote: Comrade
                  Incompetence in the topics covered is Roman Ivanov's calling card.

                  I do not look closely and do not follow the work of "Roman Ivanov". But it was amazed that a person who writes about the "attack of the century" and compares it with others, about the attack itself, turns out to be they do not know nothing, considering the attack itself a trifle! Or is he intentionally diminishes her risk, luck, skill of the commander and dedication of the boat crew?
              3. Engineer
                Engineer April 12 2021 11: 46
                +2
                With the naval theme, you are as sad as with the aviation
                Miroslav Morozov
                http://www.submarines.narod.ru/Books/Morozov_M_Gustlov_01.htm
                .
                The enemy seemed to be checking the readiness of Soviet submariners to carry out an attack in
                the simplest conditions. Passing from one domestic publication to another version about the special "skill" of Marinesco, who entered the attack from the coast, from where the enemy did not expect an attack due to the shallow depth, does not stand up to criticism. Firstly, the target was initially seaward than the S-13 and throughout the entire attack the boat remained closer to the shore, secondly, fairway no.58 passed from the coast at a distance of 12 miles, which
                did not rule out the possibility of submarines emerging from any direction. The depth of the bottom in the place of torpedoing "Gustlof" reached 61 meters, while during the war years, there were repeated attacks by Soviet submarines from depths of up to 15 meters (or even 8 meters in the Odessa Gulf, where boats of the "M" type operated). Yes, that night all circumstances turned against the passengers of the unfortunate liner. Captain Petersen,
                Knowing that several more German convoys were at sea, he ordered the position lights to be turned on (it was "thanks to them" that "Gustlof" was detected at a great distance at night), and after that he gave the command of the destroyer "Leve" to move to the aft heading angles of the vessel. Soon, unable to withstand the 12-knot speed with strong waves and a side north-westerly wind, the "Loewe" began to lag behind. Obviously the commander
                destroyer Lieutenant Commander Paul Prufe did not attach too much importance to this. He did not have data on the presence of an aggressive Russian submarine in this area - the warning about the presence of the S-13 in the Stolpe bank area, transmitted by the headquarters of the security forces of the naval base Gotenhafen, was not received on the ships

                Attack of a 12-knot non-maneuvering target with lights on without any opposition... Weather is the only obstacle, but it also camouflaged the boat the best. The conditions are really close to polygon.
                From the position of contact, Marinesco could not go into the attack. I had to overtake and go out again. Fortunately, the enemy did not interfere in any way. Special skill is not visible. Determination and perseverance is quite.
                1. Vladimir Mashkov
                  Vladimir Mashkov April 12 2021 16: 16
                  +6
                  Quote: Engineer
                  With the naval theme, you are as sad as with the aviation

                  Quote: Engineer
                  From the position of contact, Marinesco could not go into the attack. I had to overtake and go out again. Fortunately, the enemy did not interfere in any way. Special skill is not visible.

                  I am always amused by modern illiterate arrogant "researchers" who now, after the death of participants, witnesses and eyewitnesses, make their hype sensational "discoveries", "know" to read between the lines and "see" what not it is written, they claim that no one knows anything except them, and they condescendingly advise everyone to shut up, listening with an open mouth to everything they carry. One will write some ... garbage, and others pick up and spread the crap around the world.

                  Here you, like "Ivanov", like Morozov assert that "Gustlov's" attack took place in the "simplest" "polygon" conditions and was extremely simple. What were these "simplest conditions"? Storm. Moreover, such that the captain of "Gustlov" even turned on the lights and walked at a depth without an anti-submarine zigzag, without fear of submarines in such weather, the observation was weakened, and the destroyer began to lag behind because of the storm... You, of course, like the Germans after the defeat in Russia, justifying themselves by the fact that they were defeated by frost and cold, you can argue that the storm acted only on the Germans. But what about the S-13, which is much smaller not only "Gustlov", but also a destroyer, rushing at full speed in pursuit and burrowing into the wave under the diesel engines working at the limit, which could fail at any moment, choking? "The weather ... disguised the boat ..." laughing Much worse than "Gustlov", and than "Loewe"! Moreover, the nerves of the Soviet sailors were strained to the limit: every minute they were in danger of detection, shelling, and a destroyer attack. Then dive - and goodbye to the attack of "Gustlov"! True to you, not a sailor who does not understand what a storm is and what it is like to attack in it the purpose of this not understand. Either you understand everything, but you are obviously lying. By the way, torpedoes in a storm could go off course. But they have fallen in "Gustlov"!

                  No, it was still upscale workshop "attack of the century" both in difficulty and in result!

                  Are you not the reincarnation of "Roman Ivanov"? Or just a one-thinker? Engineer, this is not the first time that you persistently suggest that I quit writing. I understand you perfectly: you want to sniff your lies to suckers and inattentive people without interference. Again I answer: you will not wait!
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer April 12 2021 16: 28
                    -2
                    Engineer, this is not the first time that you persistently suggest that I quit writing.

                    In no case, write again. Without people like you on VO as without a chemist on a submarine according to naval wisdom
              4. Biodred
                Biodred April 12 2021 20: 45
                -4
                Well? Marinesko overtook the Gustlov, took up a position and fired torpedoes as at the range. The target did not maneuver, walked at a constant speed, carried navigation lights and had no security. In itself, a military campaign on those boats is a feat. Destruction of the enemy is a feat. But call it the "attack of the century"? The attack of the century is Lunin, who managed to break into the anti-submarine warrant and attack the flagship.
                1. Vladimir Mashkov
                  Vladimir Mashkov April 12 2021 20: 55
                  0
                  Quote: BioDRED
                  Well? Marinesko overtook the Gustlov, took up a position and fired torpedoes as at the range. The target did not maneuver, walked at a constant speed, carried navigation lights and had no security. In itself, a military campaign on those boats is a feat. Destruction of the enemy is a feat. But call it the "attack of the century"? The attack of the century is Lunin, who managed to break into the anti-submarine warrant and attack the flagship.

                  For those who have not gone to sea, have not been in storms, playing "war" on the computer never do not understand what is happening at sea. If anything, then I am a sailor in the past. And I know what a storm is not from books and movies.
                  Well? laughing
                  1. Biodred
                    Biodred April 12 2021 21: 00
                    -2
                    Once again: the sinking of "Gustlov" is a feat. A military campaign in itself is a feat. But what is it about "Gustlov" to call it an attack of the century? And it is not necessary, with bulging eyes, to tell about a kilometer. A kilometer is only a quarter of the 53-38 torpedo's travel at high-speed mode, the torpedo will cover this distance in 45 seconds, you don't even need to aim too much.
                    1. Andrey sh
                      Andrey sh April 24 2021 23: 47
                      0
                      You will first aim at the storm with this torpedo, be able to a kilometer away, when the boat is thrown in different directions. And to drive at maximum speed into a storm between the SHORE and the target - yes, anyone at the temple will twist, the risk is crazy. What nafig polygon conditions ...
                      1. Biodred
                        Biodred 25 May 2021 01: 25
                        0
                        sir, I understand that your intellect is bad, so read the recollections of submariners, play Silent Hunter, maybe an understanding will develop. The attack on the "Gustlov" is exactly what the polygon conditions. A non-maneuvering illuminated target less than a minute away from the torpedo. Even a seventh grade student who has mastered the calculation of triangles would have done it.

                        PS that in your primitive understanding, by the way, "drive between the coast and the goal"? For the submarine, there was a decent depth even for diving, Marinesco dived and did not know his grief.
            2. Proxima
              Proxima April 11 2021 21: 29
              +6
              "Widely advertise a single attack, albeit on a large, but auxiliary warship in polygon conditions... "- from the text. WAY RANGE CONDITIONS! belay Chase the ship for about two hours (and this is a submarine, not a racing boat), choosing a place to attack. Attack from the coast, where no one expected him. Launch three torpedoes and three at the target! And the distance is decent - about a kilometer. All specialists speak with one voice - what Marinesco did, from a tactical point of view - HIGHER PILOT! And for the Author it is a polygon ... request
            3. Constanty
              Constanty April 12 2021 08: 47
              +2
              Moreover, painting alone does not make the ship hospital.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 12 2021 16: 32
                +2
                I agree. The absence of any deck armament is required, and the cargo transported by the ship is of no less importance. "Lusitania", for example, among other things, transported openly military cargo, nevertheless, Schwiger was completely asleep for the sinking of this liner. request
          2. dauria
            dauria April 11 2021 20: 12
            +6
            It is possible that the photo was in camouflage before 1944.
            Then it does not prejudge anything


            The adversary is deliberately notified of the ship's hospital status. This is apart from coloring, lighting and so on, so on ... So everything is clear and there is nothing to muddy the waters. So you can put any transport under the protection of the Red Cross. The crew is civilian, no weapons, the cargo is food for the poor.
            Well, to the author - "a normal attack on the range." And this is the Baltic, stuffed with mines, for which the German "seven" is great, not to mention the "Escu". It's just a feat to return home there. Then Prien also fired at the Oak at the firing range. As many as two approaches, but in a standing position, point-blank, and from a surface position.
            Only Marinescu, instead of "honors", was discharged from the army and imprisoned for stealing two briquettes of coal in a hostel. Why bother with his name?
        2. antivirus
          antivirus April 11 2021 12: 56
          +9
          28.3.17.
           antivirus 2 Today, 19:36 ↑ 
          On the issue of starched shirts and honor.
          Yakov Mikhailovich Glazunov, captain of the Volga Shipping Company, brother-in-law of my acquaintance, b.
          “They call him, in the summer, to the shipping company’s department, to Gorky (perhaps Kuibyshev?), They say:
          - "go to Stalingrad, everyone who can be evacuated there"
          Loaded at the pier. A raid began, they were quickly kicked out of the pier.
          He went along the shore.
          - "If you get, then swim to the shore, and others who survive"
          And the second ship went in the middle and drowned,
          children injured.
          They laid out white sheets with red crosses on the deck.
          "The fascist threw, threw, but missed. I kept dodging, and left."
          "Every time I spoke with a cry"
          1. Looking for
            Looking for April 11 2021 18: 28
            -1
            what do you really want to tell fairy tales? The last year of conscription is 1945 - conscripts born in 1927.
            1. antivirus
              antivirus April 12 2021 05: 44
              +1
              What are you about?.............................................. .................................................. ..............
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 April 12 2021 08: 31
                -3
                Quote: antivirus
                What are you about?.....

                That your acquaintance captain was 42 years old in 14!
                1. antivirus
                  antivirus April 12 2021 09: 00
                  +3
                  reading letters assumes knowledge of the alphabet
                  ------- my friend's son-in-law, b.1928

                  the son-in-law is a relative of the father-in-law, and + the father of his wife

                  interesting little things - the mother (from the words of a neighbor when visiting for the 90th birthday) wrote it down 28 grams - so as not to go to war, and in 2017, the end of December, celebrated 90 years.
                  there was no war - apparently there were 27 citizens, and when it was pinned, they were named on the assignment commission in 1928. such a wild, isolated life.
                  for which it took the central government
                2. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny April 12 2021 11: 29
                  +3
                  Seryog, hello. My teacher in NVP, a former fire instructor at the Omsk Military University, said, look, Gaidar commanded a regiment at the age of 17 !!! Can you imagine the level of development of the soldiers of the regiment that they were commanded by a 17-year-old boy ???
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 April 14 2021 11: 14
                    +3
                    hi Приветствуем!
                    Quote: Okolotochny
                    Can you imagine the level of development of the soldiers of the regiment that they were commanded by a 17-year-old boy ???

                    It's a little different here, here it is purely according to Vysotsky wink
                    We lacked a leader:
                    Real violent little -
                    So there are no leaders.
                    laughing
                  2. Andrey sh
                    Andrey sh April 24 2021 23: 49
                    0
                    Not the level of development, but the commander's understanding of HOW to fight. Not only that - to win the respect of men who are older and very. Under other conditions, hell would he have fought for a long time.
                3. antivirus
                  antivirus April 12 2021 19: 41
                  -1
                  I'm sorry about the meaning of life I thought. I wrote a long time ago and called it wrong - father-in-law, of course
        3. Constanty
          Constanty April 11 2021 13: 03
          +12
          However, it should be emphasized that in 1945 "Wilhelm Gustloff", "Steuben" and "Goya" were not included in the above category of hospital ship. They didn't wear the colors of hospital ships were not communicated to the other side as such, and most importantly - did not refrain from participating in hostilities! The evacuation of military personnel, the arming of anti-aircraft weapons or the formation of a convoy cannot be considered as such.

          On November 20, 1940, the Wilhelm Gustloff raised the Kriegsmarine flag as the base ship for the 2nd U-Boot-Lehrdivision (2nd Submarine Reserve Division). At the turn of December 1940 and January of the following year, it was stripped of the color of a hospital ship and painted gray. Some studies also mention anti-aircraft weapons installed on the ship. As a military transport ship "Wilhelm Gustloff" left Gdynia on January 30, 1945 with the headlights off. So he could be attacked and sent to the bottom without warning.

          The loss of three units (Gustloff, Steuben, Goya) and the death of about 20 thousand people. Of course, it was a huge tragedy, but contrary to what some comments say, it was not a war crime. The pre-war agreements of the disarmament conventions, most notably the Second London Treaty of 1936, allowed submarines to attack without warning and board warships, armed support units and ships in convoys. The three Soviet submarine victims described belonged to the second category, armed and escorted. On the other hand, both Soviet commanders attacking at night had no way of checking whether the ships were loaded with civilians - and let's remember that each of them also had a lot of soldiers. At the time of the sinking, none of them had the status of a hospital (contrary to what is written in some publications).
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich April 11 2021 06: 13
      +16
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Thanks to the author for balanced and realistic an approach.

      Greetings, Konstantin

      This is exactly what I was going to write myself.

      As for "Guslov" and "Steuben", of course, I feel sorry for the refugees, but their deaths none deliberately did not seek (the armed ships of the navy were destroyed). Unlike those refugees who were chased after in 41st Messers.

      In this, I think, there is some higher justice: what the Nazis carried to others, returned to them and very painfully.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 11 2021 06: 20
        +11
        Good morning Andrey. hi
        And what did they count on by sending such huge boxes with little or no security. It's like saying to our sailors and pilots: "Guys, this is a fat goal for you." There, after all, even air cover did not seem to exist, Marinesko left the Steuben on the surface under diesel engines. Everything is logical and logical, these courts were a priori doomed.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 06: 38
          +10
          Quote: Sea Cat
          And what did they count on, sending such huge boxes with little or no security

          Bring out as many people as possible. And indeed they took out under two million. Yes, they lost a few percent, either 1 or 2. But in general, Hanibal is considered a great success for the Germans and personally for Doenitz.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 11 2021 06: 58
            +3
            I was referring to specific events with the death of these ships, and not the entire operation "Hannibal".
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 07: 01
              +6
              The formation of convoys greatly slows down the turnover of ships. And there was a German Dunkirk, get everyone out. So the decision is correct, despite all the losses.
        2. bubalik
          bubalik April 11 2021 08: 17
          +6
          Catfish
          Today, 07:

          Hello Uncle Kostya!
          During the war, all the belligerents had cases, and it is probably wrong to single out some episode separately.

          ,,,Joseph Stalin". During the Battle of Stalingrad, the steamer was used to evacuate the wounded and the civilian population of Stalingrad. On the night of August 27, 1942, performing a flight from Stalingrad to Kuibyshev, He came under concentrated artillery and mortar fire from the enemy, who had reached the Volga, and, having received many hits, sank. Of the more than 1200 people on board, no more than 200 managed to escape.
          ,,,, "Cap Arkone", May 3, 1945 the liner was sunk by British bombers. Most of the people on board were also killed, mostly prisoners of concentration camps. Those of the prisoners who managed to escape the sinking ship were shot by the German guards. A total of 5594 people died on Cap Arcon.
          ,,,, The Australian hospital ship "Centaur" (AHS Centaur) was attacked and sunk by a Japanese submarine off the coast of Queensland (Australia) (Australia) on May 14, 1943. Of the 332 medical personnel and civilian crews, 268 died, including 63 of the 65 army personnel.
          ,,,, The ship Awa Maru was a Japanese ocean liner. Written by Nippon Yusen Kaisha. While sailing as a support ship under the auspices of the Red Cross in 1945, she was torpedoed by the USS Queenfish (SS-393), killing all but one of the 2004 people on board.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 11 2021 08: 30
            +4
            Hello, Sergey! hi
            So after all, here is an article about a specific episode, I just mentioned two more recessed boxes in the same area and in the same period. request
            And you would take and, having collected in a heap all such episodes, would make a big article on all fleets and theaters, it would be interesting.
            And then from your post earlier I knew only "Joseph Stalin" and "Cap Arkona", something else happened with our transport worker at the beginning of the war in the Baltic, but I don’t remember exactly, Ruge, it seems, wrote about an abandoned steamer crammed with corpses ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 12 2021 15: 15
              +1
              Quote: Sea Cat
              There was something else with our transport worker at the beginning of the war in the Baltic, but I don’t remember exactly, Ruge, it seems, wrote about an abandoned steamer crammed with corpses.

              VT-521 "Joseph Stalin". Participated in the evacuation of the Hanko garrison. 03.12.1941, having on board about 6000 people, was blown up by three mines, and then by one more. 4 BTShch and 5 military units under fire 12 "batteries were able to remove 1740 people, after which the rescue operation was interrupted. By December 5, VT-521 drifted to the Estonian coast, where the survivors were taken prisoner.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 12 2021 16: 21
                +1
                Thank you for reminding me, Alexey. hi I also had this case in mind. I read somewhere in the early seventies with Admiral Ruge, our people were "embarrassed" to write about it.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA April 12 2021 17: 41
                  +1
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  I read somewhere in the early seventies with Admiral Ruge, our people were "embarrassed" to write about it.

                  Well, what is the name on board. Plus two and a half thousand prisoners.
          2. Niko
            Niko April 11 2021 09: 10
            -10%
            Quote: bubalik
            Catfish
            Today, 07:

            Hello Uncle Kostya!
            During the war, all the belligerents had cases, and it is probably wrong to single out some episode separately.

            ,,,Joseph Stalin". During the Battle of Stalingrad, the steamer was used to evacuate the wounded and the civilian population of Stalingrad. On the night of August 27, 1942, performing a flight from Stalingrad to Kuibyshev, He came under concentrated artillery and mortar fire from the enemy, who had reached the Volga, and, having received many hits, sank. Of the more than 1200 people on board, no more than 200 managed to escape.
            ,,,, "Cap Arkone", May 3, 1945 the liner was sunk by British bombers. Most of the people on board were also killed, mostly prisoners of concentration camps. Those of the prisoners who managed to escape the sinking ship were shot by the German guards. A total of 5594 people died on Cap Arcon.
            ,,,, The Australian hospital ship "Centaur" (AHS Centaur) was attacked and sunk by a Japanese submarine off the coast of Queensland (Australia) (Australia) on May 14, 1943. Of the 332 medical personnel and civilian crews, 268 died, including 63 of the 65 army personnel.
            ,,,, The ship Awa Maru was a Japanese ocean liner. Written by Nippon Yusen Kaisha. While sailing as a support ship under the auspices of the Red Cross in 1945, she was torpedoed by the USS Queenfish (SS-393), killing all but one of the 2004 people on board.

            Yes, but the author is ABSOLUTELY right that turning "the cases that everyone had" as you write into the ATTACK OF THE AGE and for many years being proud of the murders of innocent people is too much
            1. bubalik
              bubalik April 11 2021 09: 24
              +7
              in ATTACK OF THE AGE and for many years to be proud of the murders
              -the name was given by the German magazine Der Spiegel.
              1. Niko
                Niko April 11 2021 09: 25
                -7
                Quote: bubalik
                in ATTACK OF THE AGE and for many years to be proud of the murders
                -the name was given by the German magazine Der Spiegel.

                This is, of course, a worthy excuse - once Spiegel gave ...
                1. bubalik
                  bubalik April 11 2021 10: 00
                  +6
                  ,, again, you do not understand. In the USSR, this topic was not particularly covered.
                  1. Niko
                    Niko April 11 2021 10: 26
                    -5
                    Quote: bubalik
                    ,, again, you do not understand. In the USSR, this topic was not particularly covered.

                    Come on ... I lived in the USSR. As soon as about submariners, so right away ...
                    1. Siberian54
                      Siberian54 April 15 2021 15: 03
                      0
                      Niko \\ I read about Lunin as a schoolboy in the sixties .. About Marinesko during the catastrophe from the Jewish mouthpiece, the "light" learned and it was then that this really feat was promoted to the "attack of the century" .. And then the liberals, foaming at the mouth, unleashed this event. that their ideals decided to betray?
            2. ecolog
              ecolog April 11 2021 22: 26
              +3
              Considering how the Germans treated our prisoners of war and the civilian population, the USSR had every moral right to genocide all of Germany at its discretion. And here is some kind of lousy ship, especially a formally military one. You will remember a million more raped German women.
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 11 2021 07: 04
      +8
      Quote: Sea Cat
      I liked the article, thanks to the author for a balanced and realistic approach.

      Greetings Buddy! drinks I agree with your opinion, but on my own behalf I want to add that the degree of righteous anger among Soviet soldiers was so high that it becomes surprising how these same soldiers did not smash all of Germany to hell for the troubles and sufferings brought to our land.
      Shots from the movie "Torpedo bombers" rise before my eyes: Punish! Punish! Even at the cost of your own life.
      On those ships that Marinescu put under the water, there were bitter enemies and they had to be destroyed, all other talk in favor of the poor! soldier
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 11 2021 08: 13
        +5
        Hello to Desantura! soldier

        During this period, our submariners crashed another transport under the name "Goya", the submarine L-3 under the command of Vladimir Konovalov distinguished himself.

        L-3, a boat, in general, not new at all, entered the fleet in 1933.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Siberian54
        Siberian54 April 15 2021 15: 05
        0
        Now we just do not know how many patriotic avengers got into penal battalions and Dudinka for "punishing and punishing again"!
    4. URAL72
      URAL72 April 11 2021 08: 01
      +20
      Until December 1944, Steuben made 18 flights, evacuating a total of 26 wounded and 445 refugees. "

      And what do we worry about the refugees and the wounded? Didn't the Germans bomb our trains with refugees and wounded? But what if the blockade of Leningrad is not called genocide? Or were the Anglo-American carpet bombings humane? Let's remember the destruction of Dresden, where there were more refugees than local ones? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Tokyo? Our humanism has led to the fact that the memoirs of the Nazis on the shelves more than the memoirs of the winners. Nazism raised its head not only in Ukraine - they did not finish off, they regretted ...
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 11 2021 08: 07
        +1
        And who is worried here? I did not say a word about experiences. This is statistics and if you find any emotions in it, then this, excuse me, is already your problem.
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 14
        +3
        If the American carpet bombing saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier, they are fully justified.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 48
          +1
          Quote: Krasnodar
          If the American carpet bombing saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier, they are fully justified.

          And if gigantic funds were wasted and the war dragged on, then no.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 11 2021 12: 50
            +2
            I think that they contributed to the quickest end of the war.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 12: 55
              0
              Quote: Krasnodar
              I think that they contributed to the quickest end of the war.

              It depends on what they were made instead. Each Lancaster or Liberator is 3 Centurions or Pershing.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 11 2021 12: 59
                +2
                And each Pershing - more killed North Koreans and Chinese (appeared on the fields of WWII only in February 1945)
                Each Centurion is an increase in the firepower of the IDF fellow (first combat use in Korea)
        2. TANKISTONE
          TANKISTONE April 21 2021 19: 51
          0
          Krasnodar April 11, 2021

          If the American carpet bombing saved the life of at least one Soviet soldier, they are fully justified.
          If, "heroically" "carpet" did not bomb the clusters of enemy groups, protected by air defense and fighters, but created a quest for the SA in the form of roads and streets littered with ruins, then - yes, they saved ...
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 21 2021 19: 58
            0
            Do you think that the bombing of the Ruhr, to which the Soviet troops did not approach and Schweinfurt (tank bearings, Bavaria), as well as the Zeiss plant in Dresden, saved the lives of our soldiers or made something difficult?
            1. TANKISTONE
              TANKISTONE April 21 2021 21: 41
              0
              Krasnodar Today, 19: 58
              0

              Do you think that the bombing of the Ruhr, to which the Soviet troops did not approach and Schweinfurt (tank bearings, Bavaria), as well as the Zeiss plant in Dresden, saved the lives of our soldiers or made something difficult?
              Dresden top on your list? Do you think that the Nazis defended Dresden at the end of the war, like our tractor plant in Stalingrad ??? You answer me: how many optics have been produced by AND! sent the Nazis to the front before the arrival of the SA?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 22 2021 06: 23
                0
                How did you decide that the main one on this list is Dresden, the battles for which lasted exactly 2 days? laughing
                And not indicated by the first RUR?
      3. boris epstein
        boris epstein April 11 2021 14: 46
        +6
        A real hospital ship "Armenia" was sunk by German aircraft in the Black Sea. Unarmed, with all the recognizable signs of the Red Cross.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 15: 16
          +3
          Quote: Boris Epstein
          a truly hospital ship "Armenia". Unarmed, with all the recognition marks of the Red Cross.

          Four 21K 45mm. Plus an escort (including air).
    5. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin April 11 2021 20: 34
      +2
      I don’t know if I’m right or not, but for me the criterion of truth has always been when neither achievements nor mistakes are obscured. In this regard, this article is a model, which is why you believe the author. And as for booze and women, let us recall the cavalier guards of the XNUMXth century model! The rakes were still the same, and with the same passion that they gave themselves to champagne and beautiful ladies, with the same passion they fought for the Motherland! None of them are angels, but all are living people, capable of heroism and self-sacrifice, and of ordinary human weaknesses. And we appreciate them for one thing, and for another! So it is with Marinesco.
  2. WHAT IS
    WHAT IS April 11 2021 05: 39
    +14
    Marinesco acted perfectly on that trip.

    Yes - he is unequivocally (without the slightest reservation - in terms of the total tonnage of sunk enemy ships!) Submariner No. 1! Equally, there is no reason to doubt that on January 30, 1945, he carried out the "attack of the century." "was first named abroad. In Swiss newspapers - in 1945, and later in English, when the corresponding documents seized by the British from the Germans and exported from Germany were declassified. This definition was repeatedly repeated both in periodicals and in scientific and journalistic literature until the early 80s. Until, finally, it was not picked up by the domestic media.
    the crew and commander did their duty professionally.

    I will add that neither during the Cold War, nor afterward in the West, few doubted the outstanding achievement of Alexander Marinesco and the legitimacy of his actions in relation to "Wilhelm Gustloff" and "Steuben".
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 11 2021 06: 13
      +6
      Quote: WHAT IS
      unequivocally (without the slightest reservations - according to the total tonnage of sunk enemy ships!) Submariner No. 1

      From the Soviet.
      Quote: WHAT IS
      in the west, few doubted the outstanding achievement of Alexander Marinesco and the legitimacy of his actions in relation to "Wilhelm Gustloff" and "Steuben".

      In the West, no one cares, basically. No one likes to remember submarine warfare in general and Operation Ganibal in particular.
  3. Nazar
    Nazar April 11 2021 05: 43
    +13
    From the submarine it is not visible who is on board, refugees or warriors, but from the planes it is clear who is on the deck - the aircraft sank the "Armenia" and, as if with the refugees, it seems like "normal" - right? There were also "Russians" there, so why not drown them? And then the "Germans" aboard them then for sho? And for 75 years now this stench has not subsided.
    And just say - this is for "Armenia" and walk in the forest ... and we are all proving something, we are looking for some documents - why?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 11 2021 06: 18
      -12%
      Quote: Nazar
      from the planes - you can see who is on the deck - the aircraft sank the "Armenia" and, as if with the refugees - it seems like "normal" - right?

      Was Armenia sunk by aviation?
      Quote: Nazar
      And just say - this is for "Armenia" and walk in the forest

      A strange model of relations between the Soviet fleets.
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol April 11 2021 08: 38
        +4
        Was Armenia sunk by aviation?


        Type yes.

        https://www.interfax.ru/russia/718332
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 17
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine

        Was Armenia sunk by aviation?

        U-87th, EMNIP
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 24
          -5
          Quote: Krasnodar
          U-87th, EMNIP

          They weren't there.

          In the best case for the Navy, it was a He-111 torpedo bomber. At worst, a mine.
          Its.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 29
            -1
            Yes hi
            According to the operational report of the headquarters of the OVR GVMB Black Sea Fleet No. 001578 at 11:25 a German torpedo bomber attacked "Armenia".

            Tentatively, two torpedoes hit the ship, since the message of the Black Sea Fleet military counterintelligence says about two torpedoes.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 44
              -2
              Quote: Krasnodar
              in the message of the military counterintelligence of the Black Sea Fleet says about two torpedoes.

              And how did the military counterintelligence know this? The ship was lifted from 1.5 km?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 11 2021 12: 48
                +1
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Quote: Krasnodar
                in the message of the military counterintelligence of the Black Sea Fleet says about two torpedoes.

                And how did the military counterintelligence know this? The ship was lifted from 1.5 km?

                Probably overrated the German reports. They are not divers, sir, they are intelligence
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 11 2021 12: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  Probably overrated by German reports

                  Probably?

                  They are still looking for these reports.

                  And "counterintelligence" interviewed either 7 or 8 survivors.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar April 11 2021 13: 00
                    +3
                    I use data officially published in the public domain hi
                  2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 15: 26
                    +2
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    And "counterintelligence" interviewed either 7 or 8 survivors.

                    Well, yes, and there were apocalyptic tales about 40 'pieces' and especially about the fact that Soviet sailors did not immediately 'uncover anti-aircraft guns'. This pearl is generally a masterpiece. And I don’t understand - why interrogate the survivors if there are crews of escort boats?
            2. frog
              frog April 11 2021 15: 59
              +2
              By April 2020, it was possible to establish the location of the ship at the bottom of the Black Sea and carry out a preliminary inspection with an underwater vehicle. According to the results of this inspection, no damage to the vessel was found, characteristic of a torpedo attack.
          2. Shiden
            Shiden April 11 2021 15: 17
            +1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            In the best case for the Navy, it was a He-111 torpedo bomber. At worst, a mine.
            Its.

            In the first case, you are right, "Armenia" was sunk by torpedo bombers, but "Lenin" was blown up by Soviet mines, and there were also many victims. But in Soviet historiography, the tragedy with "Lenin" was not mentioned or was attributed to the Germans.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 16: 08
              -1
              Quote: Shiden
              In the first case, you are right "Armenia" was sunk by torpedo bombers

              Which the? How many were there?
              1. Shiden
                Shiden April 11 2021 16: 56
                +1
                Well, the He 111 could carry two torpedoes, but usually they took one so they hit about the battle. As far as I remember, this was the first torpedo bombardment on the Black Sea before that over the sea, ships worked with bombs. In Kringsmarine there was no aviation of his own. ... The He111 pilots were not newcomers and could not miss in ideal conditions. Do not forget that they had experience in the Mediterranean against the British. "Armenia", like "Gustloff", was destroyed by the Vishie commanding officers who gave orders without proper cover and time to sail.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 11 2021 18: 56
                  0
                  Quote: Shiden
                  As far as I remember, this was the first torpedo attack on the Black Sea.

                  What an interesting coincidence.
                  Quote: Shiden
                  The He111 pilots were not newbies and could not miss in ideal conditions.

                  The ideal conditions are 7-point excitement, EMNIP.
                  Quote: Shiden
                  "Armenia" as well as "Gustlof" was ruined by the Vishie commanding officers who issued the order without proper cover and time to go to sea.

                  I have already written about Gustlov, but what about Armenia ...

                  So what about the Germans? What do they write? Gustlov drowned Marinesko, who exactly is Armenia?
                  1. Shiden
                    Shiden April 11 2021 19: 30
                    0
                    I wrote that the Lutwaffe did not obey the Kingsmarine as well as the Wehrmacht, they brought up their torpedoes and hung them up if there were no torpedoes, they hung up the bombs. Where did you get the 7-point excitement, maybe you confused it with visibility, I'm not sure that Moshki could go out to sea in such excitement. Already at the crossing, "Armenia" was given the command to enter Yalta, although it was already loaded with personnel from the army and naval hospitals. What was the reason for this order. I don’t know the names of the pilots.
                2. Avior
                  Avior April 11 2021 19: 36
                  +1
                  The He111 pilots were not newbies and could not miss in ideal conditions.

                  conditions are not very ideal.
                  Wave and air escort
        2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 15: 30
          +1
          Quote: Krasnodar
          U-87th, EMNIP

          If there were 'things', then the pilots of the escort 'gulls' patrolling at 3000 m could not not notice them. But the low-marching torpedo bomber (emnip, the torpedo was dropped from the Xe-111 according to the instructions from a height of about 40 m) - could well have missed.
      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 15: 37
        +2
        What do you think - if Gustlof had been painted all over with red crosses and instead of ball was painted with virgin white paint - would that have stopped Marinesco?
        My opinion - no, would not stop... And the rhetoric of his apologists would be absolutely the same.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 16: 09
          -4
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          if Gustloff had been painted all over with red crosses and instead of ball was painted with virgin white paint - would that have stopped Marinesco?
          My opinion - no, it would not stop

          Some kind of delusional formulation of the question. As if the Soviet government and the liberation army did little to make things up additionally.
        2. Shiden
          Shiden April 11 2021 18: 06
          0
          Marinesco had no choice but he knew that the clouds were growing over him, in the war they could shoot for such antics with drunkenness. If "Gustlof" was an ambulance and carried a red cross, I think there was no attack. Let me explain why, orders usually always mention what actions are prohibited for servicemen, this is marauding, shooting of prisoners and wounded, violence against civilians. And during the war this rule worked in the Red Army. Probably, the orders of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet also mentioned this point.
        3. alstr
          alstr April 12 2021 12: 18
          0
          It would stop. Because for example, our Swedish ships did not sink. Although they could.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 12 2021 12: 58
            -1
            Quote: alstr
            Because for example, our Swedish ships did not sink. Although they could.

            What does this have to do with it? The Swedes, firstly, are neutral, and secondly, the submarines of the RKKF completely drowned the Swedes, despite a direct instruction not to touch their ships. The debut took place at Öland in June 42nd, when Sch-317 drowned Ada Gorton. In general, the Swedes have claims to the sinking of 6 ships in 1942. So - no need for unquestioning following orders, etc.
            1. alstr
              alstr April 12 2021 14: 55
              0
              This does not negate the fact that there was a refusal to launch an attack on Swedish ships.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 12 2021 15: 45
                -1
                Quote: alstr
                This does not negate the fact that there was a refusal to launch an attack on Swedish ships.

                This does not negate the fact that Marinesco could have attacked the sanctuary, citing poor visibility and the inability to identify the vessel.
    2. kytx
      kytx April 11 2021 06: 52
      +5
      with Armenia, too, is not entirely smooth. she was armed, accompanied by an escort, along with the wounded there were military passengers on board.
      war is such a sad thing :(
    3. Niko
      Niko April 11 2021 09: 17
      0
      Quote: Nazar
      From the submarine it is not visible who is on board, refugees or warriors, but from the planes it is clear who is on the deck - the aircraft sank the "Armenia" and, as if with the refugees, it seems like "normal" - right? There were also "Russians" there, so why not drown them? And then the "Germans" aboard them then for sho? And for 75 years now this stench has not subsided.
      And just say - this is for "Armenia" and walk in the forest ... and we are all proving something, we are looking for some documents - why?

      WHAT FOR? Just fortunately, we also have and have always been PEOPLE and not animals, but by comparing them with the Nazis (like ours are the same, they can and WE will, we have the right) you have not offended anyone? Excellent words about this were in the movie "Soldier's Father"
      1. Nazar
        Nazar April 12 2021 00: 28
        -2
        Niko - well, yes, well, yes, they hit you on the right cheek - turn your left, very noble, especially in war. And how do you think about the Germans "how many times you see - so many and kill" - I did not come up with this slogan, in your opinion it also "offends" someone?
    4. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 09: 32
      +1
      Quote: Nazar
      but from the planes - you can see who is on the deck - the aircraft sank the "Armenia" and, as if with the refugees - it seems like "normal" - right?

      That is, the pilot of the He-111, entering in a torpedo attack, could see in detail the deck of the attacked ship ?? In my opinion, the main thing for him is fighters and escort vessels, as well as barrage fire from the 'peaceful' ship itself. This is the main marker that the goal is legitimate. In addition, the Germans were well aware that ours were transporting military materials and personnel under the cover of the red cross - "Georgia" under the red cross was quite transporting marching replenishment and ammunition.
      1. Nazar
        Nazar April 12 2021 00: 20
        -1
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. - 40 meters height when launching a torpedo, the deck is in full view.
        And so - yes, the war - they drowned everything, I wrote about that - again "double standard" - our submariner is a "killer", but the pilots are not?
  4. Proton
    Proton April 11 2021 06: 22
    +5
    Thanks to the author!
    I liked the material, I feel that the author is not afraid to express his point of view. This is worth a lot in our time.
    Sometimes a bitter truth is better than a sweet lie.
    1. Asad
      Asad April 11 2021 06: 33
      +4
      I support your opinion, there are rarely articles without urapatriotism or fsep.
  5. Intruder
    Intruder April 11 2021 07: 41
    -20%
    During the war, a Soviet warship sank a German warship in the auxiliary fleet.
    However, isn’t a hospital ship even!?, Not included in the auxiliary fleet in the Navy ???
    Three torpedoes, for a defenseless barracks ship with
    There are no exact figures, except for the military personnel. Perished - 406 cadets and diving instructors, 250 women auxiliary service of the fleet, 168 wounded Wehrmacht and 90 sailors of the ship's crew. The rest are refugees: from 4 to 10 thousand people.
    heroic battle, what can I take ...
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 April 11 2021 08: 52
      +8
      Well, that * kohl from Urengoy * hatched with his judgments about the war.
    2. kytx
      kytx April 11 2021 09: 22
      +11
      in the article it is written in Russian that the ship was in the Kriegsmarine department, armed and carrying submariners. what else is not clear?
      the fact that they took refugees on board is the problem of the Indians.
    3. Doctor
      Doctor April 11 2021 09: 25
      +12
      However, isn’t a hospital ship even!?, Not included in the auxiliary fleet in the Navy ???
      Three torpedoes, for a defenseless barracks ship with
      There are no exact figures, except for the military personnel. Killed - 406 cadets and instructors of submariners, 250 women auxiliary service of the fleet, 168 wounded Wehrmacht and 90 sailors of the ship's crew. The rest are refugees: from 4 to 10 thousand people.
      heroic battle, what can I take ...

      In your opinion, Alexander Ivanovich should have looked into the transport and counted how many poor fascist cadets - future officers of the Kringsmarine - are sailing there?

      Or the unfortunate women of the auxiliary service of the fleet, feeding, washing and pleasing the tired pilots of the Ju-88?

      Next, how can we agree?

      The soldiers of our assault groups in Berlin were supposed to cover civilians with their bodies?
      Or an Il-2 pilot accidentally killed a transport horse in an attack - the AU animal welfare fund!

      There can be no double interpretations, Marinesco is a hero and an excellent sailor.
      And these - ALL AT THE BOTTOM!
      Together with the refugees. angry
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 10: 02
        -1
        Quote: Arzt
        There can be no double interpretation

        Ok, it can't. What then with Armenia and Georgia? Why is this a war crime, and Gustlof is a feat and # attack of the century ?? Justice of the winners? Butcher Harris - a hero or a criminal? The Germans, slowly getting rid of the guilt complex, are calling (so far not loudly) to recognize the bomb war as a war crime. Which is perfectly fair.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 19
          +9
          And what is fair? They also started it
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 25
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          declare a bomb war a war crime

          Is there any doubt about this?
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 11: 28
            +1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Is there any doubt about this?

            Is it (the bomb war) recognized as a crime? I'm not talking about Coventry and London, but FnM, Cologne, Dresden, etc.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 32
              +4
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Is there any doubt about this?

              Is it (the bomb war) recognized as a crime? I'm not talking about Coventry and London, but FnM, Cologne, Dresden, etc.

              Dresden with Zeiss factories should have been bombed earlier, if possible.
              Kaki RUR and Hesse
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 42
                +2
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Dresden with Zeiss factories

                This does not mean factories, but first of all dehausing.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 11 2021 12: 46
                  +2
                  I understand perfectly well what I mean, but the accuracy of the means of destruction of that time made it possible to destroy the object only by bombing the squares
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine April 11 2021 13: 33
                    +2
                    The difference between dehausing and, say, the fuel program, that is, the British from the Americans, was that for the Americans, at least formally, civilians were collateral damage, and the goal was a plant. But in the case of the British, it was housing and peacekeepers that were the only goal. Which translates Harris' activities from the category of "horrors of war" to the category of "crimes against humanity."
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 11 2021 15: 32
                      +3
                      This is sophistry. Sawing of the peace, in itself ugly, inhuman and cruel, can be classified into three categories of warfare:
                      1) A blow to the mobilization resource;
                      2) Destruction of the infrastructures of a hostile state;
                      3) A blow to the labor force for military production.
                      Performs the following tasks:
                      1) Reducing the number of l / s of the enemy at the front;
                      2) Hinders the normal functioning of the enemy rear in terms of logistical support for the conduct of war;
                      3) Reduces the number of weapons received by enemy combat troops.
                      Not to mention the diversion of forces and means of aviation and air defense artillery from front-line activities.
                      Therefore, in such a cannibal and terrifying activity there was a sense - saving lives in the TS. soldier of the Red Army.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 16: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        1) A blow to the mobilization resource;
                        2) Destruction of the infrastructures of a hostile state;
                        3) A blow to the labor force for military production.

                        All of the above are war crimes. England signed conventions, unlike the USSR, it is difficult to jump off here.
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Therefore, in such a cannibal and terrifying activity there was a sense - saving lives in the TS. soldier of the Red Army.

                        As I said, the question is where these efforts were made instead. Let me remind you that Britain is not even the United States, its resources are limited. If the Reptilians offered to exchange 15 thousand English four-engined engines for 15 thousand Centurions, I would not think for a minute.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 11 2021 17: 03
                        +2
                        I agree - war crimes. The problem is that all of the above was done by the Nazis before them.
                        And what would these centurions do? Were they sold in larger numbers to Jewish Arabs or would they have thrown the Chinese back beyond Tumangan? laughing
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 19: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        The problem is that all of the above was done by the Nazis before them.

                        On this scale? Not. Coventry? This is an economic bombing raid, Coventry was the center of the aircraft industry.
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        And what would these centurions do?

                        Since 40, when did the four-engined engines go? There would be tasks.
                      4. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 11 2021 19: 47
                        +1
                        Starting from Rotterdam. The action of cutting out the peace man for the sake of intimidation.
                        Centurions appeared after WWII.
                      5. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 03
                        +2
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Centurions appeared after WWII.

                        They appeared in April, but not the essence. I said that strategic aviation took over those resources that could be spent more meaningfully. Honestly, it's hard to imagine how they could be spent less meaningfully.
                      6. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 11 2021 20: 12
                        +2
                        Did they drag 50% of the fighter aircraft of the Germans from the Eastern Front to the West? Thanks already!
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 47
                        +3
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Did they drag 50% of the fighter aircraft of the Germans from the Eastern Front to the West?

                        1. Actually, almost everything.
                        2. It was 8BA, not RAF.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 42
    +1
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Has it (the bomb war) been recognized as a crime?

    In an undertone.
    I think we heard that Harris of the victory marshals tried to somehow lose as quickly as possible.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 12: 10
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      I think we heard that Harris of the victory marshals tried to somehow lose as quickly as possible.

      The butcher was really a maniac.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 12: 22
        0
        Yes, Britain had its own shameful pages in history.
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 11 2021 12: 47
        +2
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        I think we heard that Harris of the victory marshals tried to somehow lose as quickly as possible.

        The butcher was really a maniac.

        Quite right. However, after the casualties among the British civilians caused by the bombing of the Luftwaffe, it is not surprising that he became so.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 15: 42
          -1
          Quote: Krasnodar
          it is not surprising that he became so

          And who declared war on whom on September 3, 1939?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 11 2021 15: 48
            +1
            And who attacked Poland on September 1, 1939? Did the naive Fuhrer believe the assurances of his partyigenosses that the South Caucasus and France would remain on the sidelines? laughing
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 16: 32
              +1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              The naive Fuhrer believed the assurances of his partyigenosse

              Unfortunately for everyone, the Fuhrer too believed in himself and his luck. This happens. The boy went to success, it did not work, it didn’t fail.
            2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 18: 55
              -1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              And who attacked Poland on September 1, 1939?

              The question is the same, rhetorical - who declared war on whom on 03.09.39?
            3. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 11 2021 19: 33
              0
              France and the UK to the Nazis.
              A counter question - who during WWII was the first to start bombing civilians, and by no means English and French?
            4. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 19: 41
              0
              Yes, Rotterdam was the prologue. Although Goering's falcons had already been fancy-dressing, having mistakenly bombed their peacekeepers. But dumping, kanesh, everything is on the brit. So, the first civilian who died under the bombs was the Germans))
            5. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 11 2021 19: 45
              -1
              That is, in any case, the Luftwaffe!
              QED hi
            6. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 20: 32
              -1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              That is, in any case, the Luftwaffe!
              QED hi

              And, here's how, do you want the Hamburg account? OK.
              The first 'peacekeepers' were the Danes, who were killed by 'erroneous' British bombs in the raid on Wilhelmshaven 4 September 1939... And in January 40, the British bombed Sylt, and specifically - the city of Westerland. With victims among the peaceful. The first British "peacekeeper" was killed by German bombs only in March 40 during the Orkne bombing. islands.
              The Germans bombed their Freiburg by mistake only on May 10.
              So - no, not the Luftwaffe, but the KVVS.
            7. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 11 2021 21: 00
              +1
              According to the Hamburg score, the Luftwaffe inflicted bombs on Rotterdam as an act of intimidation of the country's population. It is in the format of pressure on the governments of a hostile country through the cutting of peace and destruction of civilian infrastructure from the air.
  • Doctor
    Doctor April 11 2021 13: 03
    +1
    Ok, it can't. What then with Armenia and Georgia? Why is this a war crime, and Gustlof is a heroic deed and # attack of the century ??

    Because the fascists are illegal. There is such a concept.
    They set themselves that way, with their methods of waging war.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 14: 19
      +1
      Quote: Arzt
      Because the fascists are illegal. There is such a concept.
      They set themselves that way, with their methods of waging war.

      Well, why then run over the Yankees for Kid and Fat? Ah, ah, barbarians ... peaceful Japanese ... must repent and apologize ... What, the tojo did not put themselves outside the law and did not deserve retribution?
      1. Doctor
        Doctor April 11 2021 16: 30
        +1
        Well, why then run over the Yankees for Kid and Fat? Ah, ah, barbarians ... peaceful Japanese ... must repent and apologize ... What, the tojo did not put themselves outside the law and did not deserve retribution?

        The Yankees knew perfectly well that there were peaceful Japanese people. By the way, this is their strategy. In a large-scale war, they consider the civilian population as a non-renewable (quickly) resource, and the main one.

        And Marinesco saw a military transport.
    2. Avior
      Avior April 11 2021 19: 47
      +2
      there is no such thing.
      The Nuremberg Tribunal ruled strictly the opposite - the implementation of the conventions is mandatory even if the other party does not comply
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 05
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        The Nuremberg Tribunal ruled strictly the opposite - the implementation of the conventions is mandatory even if the other party does not comply

        Yeah. And that's a damn strange thought. Some revisionists translate this statement so that it is mandatory for the loser to comply with any conventions there, but not for the winner.
        1. Avior
          Avior April 11 2021 20: 28
          +1
          Reconsidering the decisions of the tribunal is a very bad idea.
          If someone decides that he can do it, one cannot expect that others will not do the same.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 54
            0
            Quote: Avior
            Reconsidering the decisions of the tribunal is a very bad idea.

            Yes? And personally, I am for the truth. Events with the participation of comrades. Vyshinsky, Nikitchenko, Rudenko cannot cause any doubts, they were people of unerring ethical instinct.
            1. Avior
              Avior April 11 2021 21: 14
              +2
              The decisions made at the tribunal are universally recognized in the world.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 11 2021 21: 29
                0
                Quote: Avior
                The decisions made at the tribunal are universally recognized in the world.

                Did the winners recognize their decision as correct?

                This is not an argument for me.
                1. Avior
                  Avior April 11 2021 22: 08
                  0
                  As far as I understand, they do not expect your approval and do not even know about your position. :)
                  And who told you that these decisions were recognized only by the winners? All recognized, unanimously
                  UN General Assembly Resolution 95 (I)
                  "Confirmation of the principles of international law,
                  recognized by the Statute of the Nuremberg Tribunal "
                  from December 11 to 1946

                  https://undocs.org/ru/A/RES/95%28I%29
                2. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 11 2021 22: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Avior
                  As far as I understand, they do not expect your approval and do not even know about your position. :)

                  You see, your "Barnaul, Altai Territory" has never been and never will be a satisfactory argument.
                  Quote: Avior
                  UN General Assembly Resolution

                  It’s not easier yet. The best people cities.
  • Avior
    Avior April 11 2021 19: 45
    +1
    The Hague Convention at the time considered this to be the usual method of warfare.
    So it can't be a war crime.
    An additional convention was adopted after the war, in 1949.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 11 2021 10: 05
    0
    Quote: Intruder
    heroic battle, what can I take ...

    Sheath Happens.
  • bubalik
    bubalik April 11 2021 10: 44
    +8
    heroic battle, what can I take ...

    ,, Paul Tibbets, Charles Sweeney.
    90-000 in Hiroshima
    60–000 in Nagasaki.
    And no condemnation or remorse.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 06
      +6
      Quote: bubalik
      no condemnation or remorse.

      If I am not mistaken, Tibets was asked in one of the post-war interviews "And now, knowing everything, would you drop a bomb on the Japanese?" Answer - "If I had an order, I would have dropped it on New York."

      There is no demand for soldiers in such a situation. During the war, people are killed by politicians. These people were killed by Edward Stettinius and James Byrnes, 48th and 49th US Secretaries of State.
      1. frog
        frog April 11 2021 16: 03
        +4
        "The performers have a clear conscience, the theorists have clean hands"
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 11 2021 16: 47
          +1
          Ethics are subtly and precisely thought out
          Any major bloodshed:
          Clean hands - the theorist,
          The performer has a clear conscience.
          1. frog
            frog April 11 2021 17: 09
            0
            Exactly. Therefore, everything is spinning. But many here consider themselves to be theorists. performers usually live in other places)))
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 11 2021 11: 20
      0
      Quote: bubalik
      heroic battle, what can I take ...

      ,, Paul Tibbets, Charles Sweeney.
      90-000 in Hiroshima
      60–000 in Nagasaki.
      And no condemnation or remorse.

      And for what to repent? Perhaps for the deaths of tens of thousands of Korean SLAVES in Japanese cities, and even then - it was not the pilots who put them there
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 14: 22
      +2
      Quote: bubalik
      And no condemnation or remorse.

      There is no remorse - and rightly so. And condemnation from our side is constant. But they don't give a damn. And we should not give a damn about the condemnation for Goya and Gustlof.
  • Operator
    Operator April 11 2021 07: 49
    +5
    On January 30, 1945, in the winter Baltic, in the area of ​​the sinking of the Kriegsmarine "Wilhelm Gustloff" auxiliary ship, there were not test conditions, but stormy wind and rain with snow charges.

    The notorious Russophobe Maxim Klimov likes to speculate about the range conditions of the torpedo attack of the Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Marinesko.

    Monuments to A.I.Marinesko have been installed in Kaliningrad, Kronstadt, St. Petersburg, Odessa and Lokhvitsa.
    In Kronstadt, a memorial plaque was installed on the house in which Marinesko lived.
    An embankment in Kaliningrad and a street in Sevastopol and Chisinau are named after A. I. Marinesko.
    Stroiteley Street in Leningrad, where Marinesko also lived, was renamed in 1990 to Marinesko Street. A memorial plaque is installed on it.
    The flag of the submarine "C-13" is on display at the Central Museum of the Armed Forces.
    In St. Petersburg there is the Museum of the Russian submarine forces named after I. A.I.Marinesco.
    In Nizhny Novgorod, where the S-13 submarine was made, a model of its cabin and a memorial plaque with information about Captain Marinesko and two sunken ships were installed in the Kremlin.
    A stone block with a memorial plaque is installed in Vanino.
    On the alley in memory of the Hero of the Soviet Union, captain of the 3rd rank A. Marinesko with a monument to the hero and a monument to the crew of the S-13 submarine in the city of Mikhailovsk, Stavropol Territory.
    In 2013, in honor of the 100th anniversary of the birth of the legendary submariner of the USSR Navy, the "Union of Military Sailors" established and issued a commemorative medal "100th anniversary of the birth of the hero of the Soviet Union A. I. Marinesko."
    A memorial plaque with the outline of the S-13 boat and with the text, as on the monument in Kronstadt, is installed in the city of Tsur-Igale (Israel), on the house where Mikhail Gennadievich Zolotarev lives - the only member of the submarine crew who is still alive at the beginning of 2020 S-13.
    1. Normal ok
      Normal ok April 11 2021 16: 25
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      On January 30, 1945, in the winter Baltic, in the area of ​​the sinking of the Kriegsmarine "Wilhelm Gustloff" auxiliary ship, there were not test conditions, but stormy wind and rain with snow charges.

      The notorious Russophobe Maxim Klimov likes to speculate about the range conditions of the torpedo attack of the Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Marinesko.

      Monuments to A.I.Marinesko have been installed in Kaliningrad, Kronstadt, St. Petersburg, Odessa and Lokhvitsa.
      In Kronstadt, a memorial plaque was installed on the house in which Marinesko lived.
      An embankment in Kaliningrad and a street in Sevastopol and Chisinau are named after A. I. Marinesko.
      Stroiteley Street in Leningrad, where Marinesko also lived, was renamed in 1990 to Marinesko Street. A memorial plaque is installed on it.
      The flag of the submarine "C-13" is on display at the Central Museum of the Armed Forces.
      In St. Petersburg there is the Museum of the Russian submarine forces named after I. A.I.Marinesco.
      In Nizhny Novgorod, where the S-13 submarine was made, a model of its cabin and a memorial plaque with information about Captain Marinesko and two sunken ships were installed in the Kremlin.
      A stone block with a memorial plaque is installed in Vanino.
      On the alley in memory of the Hero of the Soviet Union, captain of the 3rd rank A. Marinesko with a monument to the hero and a monument to the crew of the S-13 submarine in the city of Mikhailovsk, Stavropol Territory.
      In 2013, in honor of the 100th anniversary of the birth of the legendary submariner of the USSR Navy, the "Union of Military Sailors" established and issued a commemorative medal "100th anniversary of the birth of the hero of the Soviet Union A. I. Marinesko."
      A memorial plaque with the outline of the S-13 boat and with the text, as on the monument in Kronstadt, is installed in the city of Tsur-Igale (Israel), on the house where Mikhail Gennadievich Zolotarev lives - the only member of the submarine crew who is still alive at the beginning of 2020 S-13.

      I will add that in Odessa there is (street) "Descent of Marinesko" (he lived nearby) and a nautical school named after Marinesco (he studied there).
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 11 2021 08: 31
    +13
    First, we create myths, then we expose the myths, then we expose the debunkers of the myths ...
    And so in a circle.
    Strange as it may seem, but in German literature everything is concrete and objective.
    "Die Versenkung der Wilhelm Gustloff entsprach geltendem Kriegsvölkerrecht. Als Truppentransporter hatte sie den rechtlichen Status eines Kriegsschiffs, das von der sowjetischen U-Boot-Besatzung auch nur als wahr als wahrgens. zum Zeitpunkt der Torpedierung abgeblendet durch Kriegsgebiet und wurde von dem Torpedoboot Löwe begleitet. Zudem war die Wilhelm Gustloff mit Flugabwehrgeschützen bewaffnet [19] und hatte kampffähige Soldaten an Bord. . "
    The short meaning of the quote: "The sinking of" Wilhelm Gustloff "was in accordance with the current norms of international law. As a military transport, it had the legal status of a warship, had camouflage, was in the combat zone and was accompanied by a torpedo boat Löwe. In addition, Wilhelm Gustloff was armed with anti-aircraft guns and had armed servicemen on board. "
    1. Niko
      Niko April 11 2021 09: 24
      +1
      Quote: Undecim
      First, we create myths, then we expose the myths, then we expose the debunkers of the myths ...
      And so in a circle.
      Strange as it may seem, but in German literature everything is concrete and objective.
      "Die Versenkung der Wilhelm Gustloff entsprach geltendem Kriegsvölkerrecht. Als Truppentransporter hatte sie den rechtlichen Status eines Kriegsschiffs, das von der sowjetischen U-Boot-Besatzung auch nur als wahr als wahrgens. zum Zeitpunkt der Torpedierung abgeblendet durch Kriegsgebiet und wurde von dem Torpedoboot Löwe begleitet. Zudem war die Wilhelm Gustloff mit Flugabwehrgeschützen bewaffnet [19] und hatte kampffähige Soldaten an Bord. . "
      The short meaning of the quote: "The sinking of" Wilhelm Gustloff "was in accordance with the current norms of international law. As a military transport, it had the legal status of a warship, had camouflage, was in the combat zone and was accompanied by a torpedo boat Löwe. In addition, Wilhelm Gustloff was armed with anti-aircraft guns and had armed servicemen on board. "

      I understand German quite well "each of these points separately ... made it a legitimate target" That's right - BUT BUT THIS AGE - No. And why then do we not apply "each of these points" to Armenia, for example? (Of these, only there was no painting, the guns were on board, the military were on board). The author wrote well - the legality of the attack - Yes.
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 11 2021 08: 35
    +6
    Regarding the usual, on this occasion, srach about "violation of the civilized norms of warfare by the barbaric USSR."
    The USSR at that time did not properly ratify the Geneva and Hague Conventions and was not obliged to comply with their norms. "No law - no crime." From the formal legal side, the USSR could wage the war as it liked.
    And from a moral and ethical point of view ... given how the Germans behaved on the Eastern Front, it was quite fair to pay them in the same coin, without bothering with the death of civilians.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 09: 04
      -1
      Quote: Illanatol
      how the Germans behaved on the Eastern Front

      Not at the front, but rather in the occupied territories. The difference, IMHO, is.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 11 2021 10: 58
      +1
      Quote: Illanatol
      From the formal legal point of view, the USSR could wage the war as it liked.

      Yes. And he, and with him.

      True, the Nuremberg Tribunal did not agree with the second part of this statement.
    3. boris epstein
      boris epstein April 11 2021 15: 30
      +1
      The USSR ratified the Geneva Convention on 25.08.1931/XNUMX/XNUMX.
      I give the text.
      "Declaration.
      The undersigned People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the USSR hereby declares that the USSR accedes to the Convention on Ameliorating the Fate of Prisoners of War, Wounded and Sick in the Field Army, concluded in Geneva on July 27.07.1927, XNUMX.
      In witness whereof, the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs, duly authorized for this, signed this Declaration of Accession.
      According to the decree of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR dated May 18.05.1930, XNUMX, the present accession is final and does not need to be further fixed.
      Done in Moscow on 25.08.1931/XNUMX/XNUMX
      Signature-Litvinov
      TsGAOR USSR, fund 9501, inventory 5, storage unit 7, sheet 22 "
      1. Avior
        Avior April 11 2021 19: 52
        +2
        this is Veremeyev's famous fake.
        The word prisoners of war has been inserted into the text.
        Actually about prisoners of war - another convention
      2. Illanatol
        Illanatol April 12 2021 09: 03
        -1
        An empty unsubscribe that has no legal effect.
        Litvinov does not have the authority to revise the ratification rules approved by the Constitution.
        This issue, in accordance with the Basic Law, is under the jurisdiction of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR.

        Article 49. The Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR:
        a) convenes sessions of the Supreme Council of the USSR;
        .................................. .................................
        o) announces general and partial mobilization;
        o) ratifies and denounces the international treaties of the USSR;

        No one, neither Litvinov, nor even the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, has the right to revise constitutional norms at their own whim.
        The fact of ratification and entry into force of the normative norms should have been recognized by the international community. Who recognized that the USSR joined the conventions?
        1. Avior
          Avior April 12 2021 10: 12
          +3
          it does not matter.
          According to the generally accepted decisions of the tribunal, the rules written in them are the generally accepted rules of war, and their violation is a war crime.
          It doesn't matter who signed and recognized what.
        2. boris epstein
          boris epstein April 12 2021 14: 02
          -1
          It is easier to answer who didn’t admit it. Germany and its satellites have not been recognized, and you and Avior. Warm company. And the USSR observed the points of the Convention and the rules of the Red Cross in relation to prisoners of war and civilians.
    4. Avior
      Avior April 11 2021 19: 50
      +3
      The USSR at that time did not properly ratify the Geneva and Hague Conventions and was not obliged to comply with their norms. "No law - no crime." From the formal legal side, the USSR could wage the war as it liked.

      you are not right
      The Nuremberg Tribunal ruled strictly the opposite - each of the parties must comply with the conventions, even if they did not sign, regardless of the actions of the other party.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 09
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        each of the parties must comply with the conventions, even if they have not signed them, regardless of the actions of the other party.

        And here you misinterpret the Nuremberg innovators of law. The tribunal ruled that Germany, a signatory to the convention, must comply with it by waging hostilities against the USSR, which did not sign it. But the USSR has no obligations under this convention.

        Considering that in terms of the rights of prisoners of war, the Americans got up with the British in the same year 45, the position of the convention tribunal is one of the most peculiar pages of this already peculiar event.
        1. Avior
          Avior April 11 2021 20: 40
          +3
          And here you misinterpret the Nuremberg innovators of law. The tribunal ruled that Germany, a signatory to the convention, must comply with it by waging hostilities against the USSR, which did not sign it. But the USSR has no obligations under this convention.

          The tribunal ruled that the implementation of the convention, whether signed or not, is mandatory, since conventions are generally accepted customs of war.
          In the Kononov case, for example, reference was made to this tribunal's decision.
          In addition, the USSR signed the Hague Convention after the outbreak of the war, and did not sign the Geneva on prisoners of war.

          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 11 2021 20: 56
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            since conventions are generally accepted customs of war.
            In the Kononov case, for example, reference was made to this tribunal's decision.

            Was it a trial over a winner or a loser?
            1. Avior
              Avior April 11 2021 21: 22
              +1
              I read somewhere that during the war, military tribunals condemned about a million people, including 150 thousand - to death. They were winners.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 11 2021 21: 31
                0
                Quote: Avior
                I read somewhere that during the war, military tribunals condemned about a million people, including 150 thousand - to death. They were winners.

                Do you mean that the Soviet government was not going to take a break during the Second World War in its habit of shooting Soviet people? It's true, but what does Nuremberg have to do with it?
                1. Avior
                  Avior April 11 2021 22: 16
                  +1
                  and what does your question have to do with it?
                  Was it a trial over a winner or a loser?

                  The principles established at the tribunal apply to everyone now.
                  We do not discuss the guilt of specific defendants.
          2. Illanatol
            Illanatol April 14 2021 09: 09
            0
            Uh-huh.
            Tomorrow, representatives of a local commercial bank will come to you and demand from you a certain amount in foreign currency.
            What, you did not have financial relations with this bank, did not take out a loan?
            Ну и что?
            Taking loans from banks and repaying them with interest is a "common custom".
            So money for the cashier or wait for strong guys from the Vesely Collector agency.
            Do you like this alignment, consider it normal?
            That's the same ...

            Signing any treaty without ratification in the manner prescribed by law is not valid.
            1. Avior
              Avior April 14 2021 09: 14
              +1
              According to the decision of the tribunal, neither ratification nor even signing of these specific agreements is required - their requirements are mandatory for everyone.
              As for the ratification of other agreements, this is required if this was stipulated in the text of the treaty.
        2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 20: 41
          -1
          Yeah, MTN is a legal mystery buff.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 11 2021 21: 25
            +2
            it was more of a political conference than a court in the strictly legal sense of the word.
            Nevertheless, there is political recognition of the results, whatever you call the action.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 11 2021 21: 32
              0
              Quote: Avior
              it was more of a political conference

              Yeah. In the tradition of comrade. Vyshinsky, at that time a great Soviet diplomat.
              Quote: Avior
              Still, there is political acknowledgment of the results

              There is. So what?
              1. Avior
                Avior April 11 2021 22: 13
                +2
                The fact that they have entered the international legal system, and international courts are guided by them.
                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нюрнбергский_процесс#Влияние
                These are the so-called Nuremberg principles.
                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нюрнбергские_принципы
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 11 2021 22: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: Avior
                  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нюрнбергские_принципы

                  Quote: Avior
                  The principles established at the tribunal apply to everyone now.

                  You better tell me. When the "principles established by the tribunal" concerned someone on whose side there was power. The current head of state (any), the former head of state of the first row.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior April 12 2021 10: 07
                    +1
                    There is no perfection in this world.
                    and it does not confine itself to several states.
                    1. Illanatol
                      Illanatol April 14 2021 09: 02
                      0
                      Sure. It closes in on one state. For this closure, this state prepared and provoked two world wars.
                      It is not difficult to understand who we are talking about.
                      And now this most "exclusive" state is trying to extend the jurisdiction of its laws to the whole world. If we succeed, we will have the most perfect totalitarian dictatorship in history.
      2. Illanatol
        Illanatol April 12 2021 09: 09
        +1
        The Nuremberg Tribunal actually acquitted the Nazi criminals under this article of the charge: inhumane treatment of Soviet prisoners of war.
        What punishment did the Nazis suffer?
        It is not the public statements that matter, but the nature and severity of the sentences handed down.
        The Nuremberg Tribunal is the tribunal that justified Nazism. Very few Nazi criminals received capital punishment. Many - received the terms that a petty thief gets, who stole a suitcase. And many more did not go to jail at all, as they were useful for the new owners.
        1. Avior
          Avior April 12 2021 10: 09
          +1
          The Tribunal has developed principles, and this is its main result.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol April 14 2021 08: 58
            0
            Parted modern Natsiks on his principles. Moreover, their owners, who were still in Nuremberg ousted the Nazis, not only do not mind, but also encourage their "pocket Fuhrer".
            That the principles of Nuremberg, that the Minsk Agreements ... fig leaves covering the political indecency of the "Western democracies" and their lackeys.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 09: 03
    +6
    The most enchanting myth is 'Hitler's personal enemy'.))
    1. Richard
      Richard April 11 2021 09: 47
      +8
      Contrary to the assertions of a number of military and historians, a three-day mourning for the sunk ship in Germany was not declared (for the whole war it was declared only after the 6th Wehrmacht army destroyed in Stalingrad) and Hitler did not declare Marinesko his personal enemy
  • Lynnot
    Lynnot April 11 2021 09: 36
    +5
    ... before the attack of "K-3" Lunin on the battleship "Tirpitz"

    Isn't it K-21?
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker April 11 2021 10: 08
    +8
    In the light of the article under discussion, I would like to remind some liberals trying to bring their "peaceful views" of today under the morality of the Great Patriotic War ...
    1. Not a single Soviet officer, Red Army soldier or sailor had any doubts about what to do with those who walked through their homeland with bombs and shells, destroying everything and everyone, including the civilian population, in the period from 1941 to 1944 ...
    2. How many civilians were shot in 1941-1942? in the process of evacuation to the eastern regions of the USSR by Luftwaffe aviation on the roads? How many railway trains were shot by Messers and finished off by Ju-87 both with and without the red cross signs? How many sea and river transports with civilians were sunk by Goering's pilots in the Black and Baltic Seas, on the Dnieper and Volga?
    Only the former and today's Bandera members can condemn with a tear in the eye the actions of the Red Army and the USSR Navy during the Great Patriotic War, not noticing the literal extermination of the civilian population of Donbass over the past 7 years, starting from the attack of the Bandera Luftwaffe on the building of the Luhansk administration in 2014, ending with the latter tragedies, when a sniper shot a pensioner in his own garden, and a drone dropped a homemade bobma on a 4-year-old kid.
    And at the positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, during the visit of the clown in the armor, the flag of Nazi Germany was raised ...
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 11 2021 11: 34
      +2
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      remind some liberals

      I'll stay for a liberal.
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      Not a single Soviet officer, Red Army soldier or sailor had any doubts

      OK.
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      How many civilians were shot in 1941-1942? in the process of evacuation to the eastern regions of the USSR by Luftwaffe aviation on the roads?

      Not at all, except by chance. The German air force was busy as hell.
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      How many railway trains were shot by the Messers and finished off by the Ju-87 both with and without the signs of the red cross? How many sea and river transports with civilians were sunk by Goering's pilots in the Black and Baltic Seas, on the Dnieper and Volga?

      Excuse me, but who should count it? And for what?

      What do you want to bring this speech to? Compare the USSR with the Third Reich? So the State Duma of the Russian Federation does not approve of such comparisons, keep in mind.

      Quote: stalkerwalker
      not noticing the literal extermination of the civilian population of Donbass over the past 7 years, from the attack of the Bandera Luftwaffe on the building of the Luhansk administration in 2014, ending with the latest tragedies when a sniper shot a pensioner in his own garden, and a drone dropped a homemade bobma on a 4-year-old baby ...

      It’s not easier yet. Anything can be said about the Second World War, but it really existed. In contrast to the alternative reality of Novorossiya's reports. Anyone else, but for me an insult to veterans, how many of them are still left - this is just attaching the Second World War to any current shit.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker April 11 2021 12: 25
        -2
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        I will stay for a liberal

        Oh how ...
        On Bandera, and the hat is on fire ...
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker April 11 2021 12: 31
        -1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Anyone else, but for me an insult to veterans, how many there are still - this is just attaching the Second World War to any current shit

        Gordey Belov?
        I didn't recognize thee in makeup ...
        This is now your trademark Bandera trick - to the exclamations of a common Victory in 45, in every possible way to belittle the significance of the Great Patriotic War for the Soviet people and their heirs.
        To you, the accomplices of Hitler and Goebbels, who fought against their own people from 1941 to 1945, and now from 2014, this applies only in the light of future tribunals like the Nyurberg ...
      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 12: 33
        +6
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        this is just clipping the Second World War to any current shit.

        I, too, sometimes get pissed off by these stupid parallels of WWII-Donbass. Favorite amusement of passionary asses with brains washed out by propaganda. And I do not understand this polar throwing about Marinesco's 'hero ... criminal'. Found a target - drowned. Ah, confused Steuben with Emden ... So what?
        1. Avior
          Avior April 11 2021 19: 54
          +6
          Ah, confused Steuben with Emden ... So what?

          the difference is 18 thousand rubles.
          For transport 2 thousand, for a cruiser 20 thousand.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 11 2021 20: 43
            0
            Quote: Avior
            Ah, confused Steuben with Emden ... So what?

            the difference is 18 thousand rubles.
            For transport 2 thousand, for a cruiser 20 thousand.

            Shit ... yes, sensitive)
  • svp67
    svp67 April 11 2021 11: 06
    +7
    In 1940, the ship was handed over to the Kriegsmarine and became the floating barracks for the school of submariners.


    Sailors of the 2nd Kriegsmarine Submariners' Training Division on the deck of the Wilhelm Gustloff cruise ship. Year unknown
    Source: https://fotostrana.ru/public/post/231934/1674765767/
  • Constanty
    Constanty April 11 2021 11: 21
    +4
    before the attack of "K-3" Lunin on the battleship "Tirpitz", albeit unsuccessful, but a masterful and desperate.


    On July 5, 1942, the German battleship Tirpitz was attacked by a Soviet submarine K-21 under the command of Captain Second Rank Nikolai Lunin.
  • Constanty
    Constanty April 11 2021 11: 41
    +1
    the villain Marinesco drowned a peaceful civilian, almost a hospital ship. Moreover, this fake pops up regularly.


    This is not so much a fake as ignorance and overlapping of several pieces of information. Before the Civil War "Wilhelm Gustloff" (owned by the state organization "Kraft durch Freude" ")
    was a civil and passenger ship


    , after the outbreak of the war, served briefly as a hospital ship.

    It was then handed over to the Kriegsmarine as an auxiliary for the U-Bootwaffe training unit personnel. It was also used to transport the army. It was equipped with anti-aircraft guns and grenade launchers for depth charges.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 11 2021 11: 43
    +1
    Good analysis. Respect to the author. I would like to add a little off-topic article.
    an article published long ago by Miroslav Morozov, the best researcher of the history of our fleet in that war:

    Miroslav Morozov is, of course, a competent naval historian. But for some reason, in his interpretation of Lunin's attack on "Tirpitz" as a very solid argument for the failure (?) Of the Lunin attack, he wrote that the journal of our p / l is filled with one handwriting, which is incredible in a military campaign. Accepted. This is an argument. However, he did not take such an approach to Tirpitz's magazine, he did not see the magazine, nor wrote about what he did not see - it would be more objective. He told a lot about Lunin and his attack - in particular, that Lunin was a victim of an optical mirage (and auditory hallucinations? - this is from me). The question of why Tirpitz suddenly decided to return after Lunin missed is also vague.
    And the original article on Marinesco is good. I wonder if Marinesco himself would have forgiven such spree on the shore of someone from his crew? So he had nothing to be offended.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 12 2021 15: 01
      +1
      Quote: Aviator_
      The question of why Tirpitz suddenly decided to return after Lunin "missed" is also indistinct.

      Just there, everything is clear - after the third consecutive interception of the German RR message about the discovery of the Tirpitz group (Lunin, DB-3F, British), the Kriegsmarine command decided that they did not need a second Rheinübung, because for the loss / heavy damage of their only aircraft they won't pat it on the head. And the Germans knew about the presence of the LK long-range cover of the KOH.
      Moreover, the task of the ship group was completed - the convoy scattered.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ April 12 2021 19: 22
        +1
        Moreover, the task of the ship group was completed - the convoy scattered.

        Well, this is perhaps a minimum task. The maximum task is to destroy the entire convoy with the main caliber. My main complaint to Miroslav Morozov was that he saw the K-21 magazine, but did not see the Tirpitz magazine. And nobody saw him. And he should have written about this. And with one or two torpedoes such a colossus, in principle, cannot be sunk, only slightly scratched.
  • iouris
    iouris April 11 2021 13: 00
    -1
    One should not expect that real folk heroes and patriots in this country always become official heroes. Marinesco is a prime example. With regard to the citizen's attitude to this story, one can understand what is inside the citizen without opening the skull.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk April 11 2021 13: 16
    +5
    Paying tribute to Marinesco, I cannot fail to mention all our submariners - even reaching a position through minefields is already a feat in itself. Low bow to all of them.
  • Colonel
    Colonel April 11 2021 13: 35
    +2
    Killed - 406 cadets and instructors of submariners, 250 women in the auxiliary service of the fleet, 168 wounded Wehrmacht and 90 sailors of the ship's crew. The rest are refugees: from 4 to 10 thousand people.
    Author, go cry. And best of all at the Piskarevskoye cemetery. Whistleblower.
  • alstr
    alstr April 11 2021 14: 33
    +4
    First, I want to correct the author. Under the command of Marinesco, M-96 sank 1 transport. Moreover, if I remember correctly, it was the only transport sunk by babies in the Baltic.
    So, there were reasons for the rise.
    In addition, there is a tradition in our country to raise the guilty, i.e. in fact, get rid of uncomfortable people by transferring them with a promotion. Perhaps with Marinesco - that was the case.

    As for Marinesco himself, the fact that he drank and walked on women of easy virtue was known to everyone. And in the campaign in which Gustav S-13 was sunk, they pushed out to hush up the last incident, which saved him for a while from the tribunal (court).

    So Marinesco is to blame for his further fate, since continued in the same spirit further.
  • Tests
    Tests April 11 2021 15: 02
    0
    Operator (Andrey), dear, flag "S-13", thanks to the initiative of the party organizer of the fourth "Shark" "TK-13" (in those years, Lieutenant Commander Viktor Anatolyevich Svintsov), veterans of "S-13" were devoted to the crew of "TK -13 "and at the end of the 20th century" breathed the air of the Arctic ".
  • faterdom
    faterdom April 11 2021 16: 06
    +2
    This is a very philosophical question ...
    More than once during a long service I had to hear the characteristic: "He does not drink, it seems like there is nothing to complain about, but there are no successes, and other merits, too."
    Or "He will hit anything from the first bullet / shell / rocket / torpedo, or just a stone in the head, the fighters respect like a father, but he drinks / babbles / the Party's politics (!) Criticizes with shameful words - this has no place in our ranks ( especially in peacetime - he does not want to paint the grass, the political officer calls him a troubadour, or a duratrub - well, where to put up with this, he ... undermines the Authority! And in general, he is not here!)
    So - the first, these are not commanders, they are officials in the worst sense of the word.
    I am not writing this as a plus to alcoholism, by no means what is the disintegration of personality when you see a robot-addict under the guise of your acquaintance many times. And to the fact that the absence of other advantages, while unnoticed in use, was often a preferred feature for growth prospects, and sometimes up to significant ranks.
    Only to fight under the command of such is still happiness. Better under the guidance of a drinking, but competent, decisive and successful Alexander Ivanovich Marinesko.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 12 2021 15: 04
      +2
      Quote: faterdom
      Or "He will hit anything from the first bullet / shell / rocket / torpedo, or just a stone in the head, the fighters respect like a father, but he drinks / babbles / the Party's politics (!) Criticizes with shameful words - this has no place in our ranks ( especially in peacetime - he does not want to paint the grass, the political officer calls him a troubadour, or a duratrub - well, where to put up with this, he ... undermines the Authority! And in general, he is not here!)

      I remember the karakteristika cap-two Balka.
      Captain of the 2nd rank S.Z. Succumbing to alcoholism, in peacetime, a captain of the 2nd rank Balk is in many cases an element for service not desirable, but his decisiveness and selfless courage shown in the war, his impeccably honest and handsome nature give the right to be condescending to his lack. Beloved subordinates, in wartime cap. 2 p. The beam will make them heroes, and in peace - it will make you willingly carry out any difficult work, any emergency work, surprising others with the speed of its execution.
  • stroybat ZABVO
    stroybat ZABVO April 11 2021 16: 41
    +2
    "If from a military point of view and for the twentieth century, I would still call the attacks of the century the sinking .................. I think these are the best in the world. miscellaneous. The last - in 1982, when the British nuclear submarine sank the Argentine cruiser. "
    When are you going to come to Argentina?
    It will be necessary to gather here the veterans of that war, so that your face would be stuffed in the face from a military point of view.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 11 2021 17: 35
      +3
      in 1982, when a British nuclear submarine sank an Argentine cruiser.

      This is an overkill for the author. An attack in polygon conditions outside the declared zone of the blockade of the Falklands is not a feat. At all.
  • Charlie
    Charlie April 11 2021 20: 28
    0
    What is the article about? About the fact that Marinesco was drinking and fighting bravely? At the end of the 80s, a whole article was devoted to Marinesco's "Marine collection". The article was not very positive. With extracts from various characteristics and magazines of all kinds. From the article it followed that he was passive as a commander. He was at sea, in position, already at the beginning of the spring of 45, he had the opportunity to attack enemy ships, which were sailing without protection. But he did not attack, he chewed snot. In the "Marine collection" the sailors themselves wrote. I don't remember a lot about him. But for some reason there was no good
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman April 12 2021 06: 42
    -1
    1) the attack of Marinesku (his surname is correct) is the most complicated in fact, clearly not a "polygon".
    2) Lunin's attack on Tirpitz was blurred by the Anglo-Saxons. Upon Lunin's attack, Tirpitz hobbled to the base and licked his wounds for a long time, Hitler forbade risking a major trump card after Lunin's slap in the face. Having reinsured, the Germans themselves drove Tirpitz into a trap, such fighters are strong in the open with a warrant, and in the harbor he was gouged by "allys" as in exercises, and then they strained for a long time.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 12 2021 11: 11
      +1
      Quote: Fisherman
      Upon Lunin's attack, Tirpitz limped to the base and licked his wounds for a long time

      don't talk nonsense. Neither Tirpitz, Scheer, Hipper, nor the escort EMs even noticed the Lunin torpedoes.
      Quote: Fisherman
      Lunin's attack on Tirpitz was blurred by the Anglo-Saxons.

      Again this crap about "rewriting history"?
      Quote: Fisherman
      after slapping Lunin

      This "slap in the face" exists only in the fantasies of hyperpatriots.
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik April 12 2021 12: 21
    +1
    Quote: Proxima
    Attack from the coast, where no one expected him. Launch three torpedoes and three at the target! And the distance is decent - about a kilometer. All the specialists unanimously say that what Marinesco did, from a tactical point of view, is HIGHER PILOT!

    Look on the map, how many kilometers were there to the coast? A distance of about a kilometer is "point blank". To miss on such a colossus it was necessary to try very hard. Who are all the specialists? 70s-80s propagandists?
    For comparison, read about Lunin's attack on Tirpitz. Or the attack on Shinano.
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik April 12 2021 12: 25
    +3
    Quote: Fisherman
    2) Lunin's attack on Tirpitz was blurred by the Anglo-Saxons. Upon Lunin's attack, Tirpitz hobbled to the base and licked his wounds for a long time, Hitler forbade risking a major trump card after Lunin's slap in the face.

    Shaw, again? winked
    The British congratulated us on our success, after our cheerful report on our success. Moreover, as a decent person, Lunin reported only that he had carried out the attack and heard some explosions. Everything else was completed by the imagination of the leadership.
  • fomin
    fomin April 12 2021 18: 53
    0
    Everything is learned in comparison, for example I will give a list of passengers published by Heinz Schön - a man who survived the sinking of the liner "Wilhelm Gustloff", as he is called, as he survived we will talk about it later.

    918 - officers, non-commissioned officers and cadets of the 2nd battalion of the 2nd training submarine division
    173 - members of the civilian crew (seamen of the merchant marine)
    162 - seriously wounded soldiers from hospitals in Danzig and Gotenhafen
    373 - women auxiliary of the Navy
    8956 - refugees, mostly women with children and old people from East, Danzig, Gotenhaven and West Prussia.
    Total: 10.582 people
    To further continue the conversation about the passengers of the liner, let's see the list of those rescued, 1239 people survived the crash, including:
    528 - submariners of the 2nd battalion of the 2nd training submarine division (57%)
    123 - women auxiliary personnel of the Navy (33%)
    86 - seriously injured (51%)
    83 crew members (merchant seamen) (48%)
    419 - refugees. (4,6%)
    The composition of the rescued says a lot, imagine - having received three torpedoes on board, the liner tilted, and began to sink on the ship, a terrible panic began, a huge crowd of passengers crushing each other rushed to the boats. A terrible crush began on the gangways and stairs, which was aggravated by the presence of a significant number of firearms in people. (The life-saving equipment of the liner included 12 large boats designed for 50-60 people each, 18 boats for 30 people and 380 inflatable rafts for 10 people, i.e. only 5000 people, after the liner heeled, the life-saving equipment of the right the board could no longer be used, therefore, in reality, the funds for the rescue were recruited for 2500-3000 people). But strong guys from the 2nd battalion of the 2nd training division of submarines, pushing all the women and children apart, quickly evacuated themselves, while the question may arise, were there 918, the remaining 390 woke up conscience? No, of course not who will believe in the theory of conscientious suicide. The fact is that when the torpedo explosions were heard, the captain of the ship, according to the instructions, ordered to block the watertight compartments in the lower decks, thereby cutting off the escape routes for part of the ship's crew and passengers.

    The girls from the auxiliary personnel of the Navy did not lag behind the guys from the 2nd battalion, dashingly jumping over, and where they trampled the children who fell under their feet, they broke through to the boats. Here again an inquisitive reader may ask, but there were 373 of them, 250 may have woken up conscience and they decided to give up their place in the boats to children. Again by, the second torpedo hit the side just opposite the pool, in which the "assistants" were located, while a large number were wounded by pieces of scattered facing tiles and were shell-shocked. As a result, they did not catch up with their faster and more successful girlfriends and were apparently wiped out by the crowd.

    The members of the liner crew also did not forget themselves and, not caring about the passengers, began to save themselves (like rats escape from a sinking ship), led by the captain of the liner (the aforementioned mate Mr. Of the 2nd battalion and captain Petersen, who commanded on board the ship, and so on. All those who, according to the maritime (written and unwritten) laws, had to fight for the lives of passengers to the end).

    I want to draw special attention to the number of rescued wounded out of 162, 86 were saved. If they were ordinary soldiers, who would remember about them in such a panic. Naturally, the wounded need to have great ranks so that in such a crush someone would begin to transfer them to boats, holding back the pressure of the crowd. And in general, doubts arise that these wounded were wounded!

    Of the 8956 cadets, assistants and crew members of the liner, women and children, abandoned after the "valiant evacuation" from the sinking ship, only 416 were saved, these were those who were incredibly lucky to get on a boat or life raft.
    An inquisitive reader can say here - And, where are the functionaries? I will answer this question with an excerpt from Grasse G.'s book "The Trajectory of the Crab": "... I can only state what is given in various sources as evidence of eyewitnesses who survived this catastrophe. Old men and children were trampled to death on wide staircases and narrow gangways. Everyone thought only of themselves. Those who cared about others tried to get ahead of the painful death. There is a story about an officer-teacher who shot first three children in his cabin with a service pistol, then his wife, and then shot himself. The same is told about the party functionaries and their families, who occupied the special apartments that were once intended for Hitler and his loyal associate Lei and which have now become the backstage for the act of self-liquidation. "

    Those. if one of the cadets was able to force to transfer some of the wounded to the boats, then no one thought or cared about the party functionaries, and if they tried to command and pay attention to their own person, they were simply ignored. It was incredibly difficult to break through alone to the cherished boats, although it is possible that some muzzle-faced Partagenossians managed, pushing the unfortunate children away, to take a place in the boat and get into the lucky number - 416 women and children saved (according to Mr. Shen).
    Source: https://liewar.ru/mify-i-mifotvortsy/263-a-marinesko-geroj-ili-zlodej.html
  • naGua
    naGua April 13 2021 06: 38
    0
    Um ... actually, Nikolai Aleksandrovich Lunin commanded K-21, during the attack of the German squadron, where the LK Tirpitz was also ... No? bully
    However, after reading the comments below, some very, very interesting, it became clear that they paid attention to the slip.
    By the way, happy Cosmonautics Day, comrades! Let this holiday be yesterday. I would like to congratulate all those involved in this topic. All those involved and not so much. Happy Holidays!
  • Olga Sukhova
    Olga Sukhova April 13 2021 21: 08
    -1
    About ten years ago I had a chance to communicate with a relative of my wife - a captain of the first rank, previously a submariner, then a staff officer. And, one evening, on TV there was a laudatory program about the "attack of the century." I was surprised by the reaction of the naval officer - he switched to another channel and said that this event is shameful for the Baltic fleet. That evening, the topic was not developed, but I, a rocket officer, was not interested in it at that time. But periodically meeting with laudatory programs and articles, and remembering the reaction of the naval officer, I became interested in this topic. I read a lot of literature, both domestic and foreign, with maps and diagrams. In principle, I agree with what the author described. It is necessary to add to the general picture of the event - the area of ​​responsibility of the commander of the S-13 submarine was assigned position area No. 3 with the task of countering enemy surface ships approaching the coast and inflicting artillery strikes on the Red Army units, which suffered tangible losses from these strikes. While in PR No. 3, the commander of the S-13 submarine avoided contact with the enemy and dodged attacks (according to the recollections of the crew members, even the enemy submarine was observed in the immediate vicinity, but the commander did not undertake fire contact). However, having received information from the remote command post, transmitted to all submarines every day, about the planned exit of Gustloff, the route of his movement and the prohibition to attack the liner (do not be surprised, at that time, in conditions of panic and mass movement of civilians, reconnaissance worked perfectly), left his area of ​​responsibility (without informing the headquarters), moved to the border of positional areas No. 4,5, where he torpedoed the liner Gustloff. If we consider this fact without emotion, the commander of the S-13 submarine in this episode violated the order of the fleet headquarters at least twice. It should also be noted that in the area of ​​the detonation of Gustloff there was another submarine of the Baltic Fleet, which did not undertake an attack on Gustloff, but, subsequently, launched an unsuccessful attack on the approaching enemy cruiser. A very big request, before lashing out with any accusations, study the materials, but everyone draws conclusions for himself.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov April 13 2021 23: 03
    +1
    Killed - 406 cadets and instructors of submariners,

    1. Part of the submarine crews were trained on Gustlov. So at least 10-15 submarines died.
    2. There were 900 cadets-submariners on board, 500 were saved, but their training was also interrupted, and this was the crew for another 10-15 submarines.
    3. It became impossible to train another 900 new cadets in the following months - crews for another 20-30 submarines.
    If summed up, it turns out that the death of Gustlov deprived the German submarine of replenishment for 40-60 submarines. And it can hit even more - it all depends on which part of the crews trained on Gustlov and how long the training lasted.
    The rest are refugees: from 4 to 10 thousand people.

    This is very imprecise. In January 1945, everyone had not yet been evacuated. On Gustlov, the party activists of the Nazi party from East Prussia were beating along with their families, but the vast majority on board were beaten by additional recruits who were to enter the Wehrmacht and the conditions for their training on the spot were not hit. Using the term "refugees" they create the impression that only women, old people and small children were beaten on the ship.
  • SSS1965BK
    SSS1965BK April 14 2021 08: 58
    0
    A question to the author, how does "General Belgrano" radically differ from 'Wilgem Gustloff "? In my opinion, only the presence of" a certain number of 6 "guns".
  • old sea dog
    old sea dog April 16 2021 19: 39
    0
    1971 Kiel Bay. Monument to the fallen sailors. Model "Gustlov" a. Data: dimensions, when and where built, etc. Last lines: ... sunk by a Soviet submarine ... I don't remember exactly, (but not 10) refugees and crew. There were no SS men and no submariners.
  • Konstantin Sokov
    Konstantin Sokov April 16 2021 20: 24
    0
    The latter was in 1982, when a British nuclear submarine sank an Argentine cruiser.
    Is it okay that the attack was out of the combat zone?
    But this is different ...
    And I like the burning Sheffield ...
  • Andrey Sorochkin
    Andrey Sorochkin April 17 2021 17: 10
    -1
    before the "attack of the century" Marinesko had no experience of a successful torpedo attack - the Finnish dry cargo ship, whose tonnage was overstated in the report by 10 times, was not damaged, and the tugboat was unfinished and came to the port on its own. during the Second World War there was a rubber boat with its scouts, and even then it had its own boat. After the "New Year's breakdown", when 50 submariners waited in a cold semi-dark submarine for three days for a cap, a military campaign took place with a Combat Mission to be on duty at Klaipeda Where did this outstanding strategist find it, it can be assumed from a previous incident (summer 28.01.45), when a patrol boat found a surfaced submarine C-1943 in an abnormal location (near the Swedish coast) and almost drowned it. modestly. And without ever getting in touch (they could track their own), in February the C-13 pinned itself to the old base of Hanko Island, and the Submarine Base moved to Turku. I had to trudge under its own power through the ice for more than a hundred kilometers and lie on the bottom near Aleksandr Ivanovich was sure that they would shoot him and finish off the "ammunition" of alcohol. Only a day after the diver's descent, knocking out the order to ascend with Morse code, the submarine "surrendered" and the captain's body was delivered into the hands of the authorities. And then it happened - FEAT - there is simply no one, except for this WORTHY was attributed to the exploded on mines "V. Gustlov" and "Emden" (as it was until the 13s). The radio operators did not make out the name of the sunken "Steuben" and Marinesko had to "sink" the cruiser instead of the passenger (the silhouettes are, well, just "similar, similar"). And the cap of "Gustlov", who felled at night without a minesweeper, of course assured that two explosions (and there were two) were caused by the submarine. Polish scuba divers saw a liner with Holes on the RIGHT side. After it was blown up by our divers so as not to embarrass the heroic Baltic Fleet with the search for the truth. So they wrote off the drunk quietly from the fleet, the bosses knew everything about the assigned tonnage and who else let it slip until the writer Kron inflated a sensation.
  • serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow April 18 2021 14: 57
    0
    Another crap !!! The further, the more there will be such "qualified" specialists.
  • wassermine
    wassermine April 22 2021 17: 48
    0
    ... Who was on the ship? There are no exact numbers ...

    That's right, the author of the article does not have these numbers. And in the order of the chief of the port of Kiel on the order of meeting "Wilhelm" on January 31, 1945, they are. And in the correspondence between the chief of the port of Kiel and the military commander of the city of Kiel, they are also present. They are also in the testimony of the interrogated captain zursee (captain 1st rank) Viktor Schütze.
  • non-savoy
    non-savoy April 29 2021 19: 59
    0
    The author has failed. Lunin attacked "Tirpitz" on K-3?!?! Or maybe it's K-21 after all? Well, as already written, the description is not at all an attack on the VG). Well, in conclusion: in my opinion, the attack of the "Archerfish" on the "Shinano" is more serious than the sinking of the "Taiho", if only because of the more than 2 times greater displacement of the victim and more difficult conditions. But for me, the attack of Marinesco is precisely the attack of the century, according to the totality of all conditions. Something like this.
  • Oleg Igorevich
    Oleg Igorevich 9 May 2021 17: 03
    0
    Dear author. Attack C -13 is far from range conditions and you are deeply mistaken. The commander found the convoy at a distance where he could not get it with torpedoes. After that, at his own peril and risk, he surfaced and on the surface, having developed a speed of 16 knots on diesel engines (night, excitement, darkness and shallow water) began to chase the convoy for almost 4 hours !!!!!!!!!
    The whole convoy was expecting a threat from the sea, not from the shore !!!! Because a boat in shallow water is easily vulnerable and no sane commander will lead her there. During the chase, Marinesco ordered to put up signal lights imitating a Swedish fishing schooner. The German convoy requested them in Morse code with a searchlight. WHO YOU ARE ? WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? And the crew of the submarine answered: SWEDEN, fishermen, we are experiencing a storm. Fortunately, they were believed. When the boat overtook the convoy at a convenient distance (January, storms, winter Baltic), the commander of Marinesko fired bow and stern torpedo tubes. This maneuver, naval art and plus the luck of the crew. They were lucky enough to survive after a terrible depth charge bombing
  • fomin
    fomin 30 May 2021 17: 50
    0
    More information about the death of Wilhelm Gustlov and the number of victims can be found here: https://flot.com/blog/katastrofa/sirotskiy-parokhod.php
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 31 May 2021 15: 49
    0
    Quote: Old sea dog
    There were no SS men, no submariners either

    The SS ovtsi may not have been beaten, but mostly by the prizewinners. The submariners were not beaten either, but the cadets for the submarines were beaten - 918 people, along with instructors. These are the crews for the new submarines.