Myths about the Battle of Kulikovo: the opinion of a historian

The farther into stories remains this or that event, the more mythology it acquires. This is especially true when it comes to wars. Moreover, myths can be formed in two directions. One of them is the exaggeration of this or that event, feat, even the glorification of persons who did not take direct part in the event. Others are the so-called "black myths", when the historical role of an event is tried in every possible way to belittle, offend the participants, etc.

A classic example of the "black myth" is associated with the Great Patriotic War. For example, these are well-known statements about allegedly one rifle for three or that the war "was won not by a Soviet soldier, but by an Anglo-American Lend-Lease."

What can we say about the events that remained in the distant past.

The most heated discussions have recently been going on in our country on the topic of the Mongol-Tatar yoke and the events associated with it. There is a group of people, including historians, who generally reject the very existence of the yoke, finding options for arguing their point of view.

A fair amount of judgments of a mutually opposite nature concerns the Battle of Kulikovo. It is unlikely that there is a person in our country who would not have heard anything about this battle at all, however, if you delve into the study of history, many questions arise. One of the main questions is the exact time and exact location of the event. Until now, historians dispute the hypothesis put forward about the very Kulikovo field where Dmitry Donskoy fought with Mamai.

The historian Oleg Dvurechensky notes that even the very concept of the "Battle of Kulikovo" is a myth, since the event is not mentioned in such a formulation in ancient sources. More often you can come across the concept of "Don battle".

Comments

[AML]

Humanity reliably knows its history for only 200 years. Everything else can be written down in fiction

[Machito]

Eh, we are on the left, and we are on the right ...

[Sling cutter]

And who knows from those present what Shcheglovsky Zaseki is? Well, just for fun?

[ZAV69]

Place in Tula.

[ZAV69]

There is a serif. The Kaluga Ryazan highway in the Venevsky district runs partly along the line itself. Even the village of Zasechny is
Actually, here's a movie about catching the line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4t73frkXU

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: AML

Mankind reliably know its history only for 200 years

and you are an optimist
I can give you screenshots of books where it is described how the sailors stormed the winter
Americans believe the south-north war was to abolish slavery

[aybolyt678]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Americans believe the south-north war was to abolish slavery

not only Americans .... in general, history is studied by "Gone with the Wind" and "Gulag Archipelago". these are such "historical bloggers" in a digestible form for the mentally underdeveloped, who pride themselves on being able to read "interesting" books.

[Free wind]

I tried to read WAR AND PEACE three times, it was very tedious and hard to write, I could not. I wanted to see a movie, but I couldn't. The gulag tried to read, could not. Gone with the wind, well nafig, didn't even. And here is QUIET DON, I read it with pleasure

[GTYCBJYTH2021]

Quote: Free Wind

I tried to read WAR AND PEACE three times, it was very tedious and hard to write, I could not. I wanted to see a movie, but I couldn't. The gulag tried to read, could not. Gone with the wind, well nafig, didn't even. And here is QUIET DON, I read it with pleasure

"Gloomy River" ..... This is with a soul ...... not Prilepin's stuff .. (I haven't read this at all )

[Cat]

I tried to read three times

I even envy you ... So many good books to read

[aglet]

"Gone with the wind, well nafig, didn't even."
I would advise you to start with Russian folk tales, you will definitely understand that. though...

[Petrik66]

Well, the first half of "Teremka" up to grade 3 is overcome.

[aglet]

"Well, the first half of" Teremka "up to grade 3 is overcome"
it seems not all

[mister-red]

I tried to read WAR AND PEACE three times, it was very tedious and hard to write, I could not. I wanted to see a movie, but I couldn't. The gulag tried to read, could not. Gone with the wind, well nafig, didn't even. And here is QUIET DON, I read it with pleasure

I read war and peace at school, instead of the prescribed passage from the anthology. The beginning is difficult, a lot of French. Probably there and stumbled
The archipelago is very tedious, Solzhenitsin was generally gifted with not particularly literary talents. I would say mediocrity. But I read it in due time.
Gone with the Wind is excellently written, easy to read and interesting.

[avg]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Americans believe the south-north war was to abolish slavery

These are still flowers, from what kind of discoveries await us from the "historians of BLM", etc. already takes your breath away

[Virus-free crown]

Quote: AML

Humanity I know my history for sure only 200 years. Everything else can be recorded in fiction

But in vain !!! you all minus this post
Only 21 years have passed since my wife and I submitted an application to the registry office ... and you know what the joke is ?!

My wife is sure that when we passed the ZAKS (just like that, walking in the park near the ZAKS) it's me !!! I dragged her to the ZAKS ... Well, I EXACTLY remember it !!! that I did not think then "surrender at the mercy of the Winner"

That's how we still argue - who dragged whom to the ZAKS ... and BOTH !!! sure - it was done by another

so ... I think ... in 200 years there will be a LEGEND of how my wife and I got married))))))))))

[AML]

Quote: Crown without virus

Quote: AML

Humanity I know my history for sure only 200 years. Everything else can be recorded in fiction

But in vain !!! you all minus this post

And this is from a small mind. It’s easy when I’ve read 2 books in my life - a blue book and a primer. Therefore, the answers are simply given - there are simply no other options in the skull. They cannot divide by zero, and the Bolsheviks organized a revolution and unwashed Russia.

For example, what they have not invested in the head.

- Previously, the climate was different. The average temperature was about 50 degrees. Although at school they taught about different ice ages, but somehow passed by. The ice age is completely related to ice. And the fact that we are now living in the Little Ice Age does not fit in the little head. And the great ice age, in general, is able to wipe out all the signs of civilization from the face of the earth, since many kilometers of ice blocks begin to move along the earth.

- Is the earth round or flat? There is even nothing to think about, of course it is round. That is, with the theory of relativity, we poke into all the cracks and understand what a starting point is, but this is inapplicable with the Earth. At times I start a "dispute for the sake of a dispute", this is when you take a side with which you can disagree and give reasoned arguments. So one friend told me that if I am so stupid, I can check it - inflate the geosonde, tie a camera to it and see with my own eyes. And there is nothing to argue with such a comrade, because instead of knowledge and understanding there is a hole.

What can we say about history. Is Tartary on the cards? There is. Has anyone at school or institute heard of her?

Here they wrote to me below about birch bark and a smart boy from the 13th century who could write. It's a pity the scientists did not find out, but could he read? And why the 13th century? Did the boy write?
And if we consider that the ancestors lived according to the "wrong calendar", should we consider the boy gifted, because at the age of 3, being able to write and read is strong.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: AML

- Previously, the climate was different. The average temperature was about 50 degrees

Where?!
do not be offended but you wrote nonsense, the average temperature of what ?!
summer, winter, average annual, average water temperature?

Quote: AML

- Is the earth round or flat?

really flat ?!

[Usher]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: AML

- Previously, the climate was different. The average temperature was about 50 degrees

Where?!
do not be offended but you wrote nonsense, the average temperature of what ?!
summer, winter, average annual, average water temperature?

Quote: AML

- Is the earth round or flat?

really flat ?!

Average annual. The Vikings lived in Greenland (it's a fact, they found dwellings). In general, all life on Earth, and even more so human, completely depends on the climate.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Usher

Average annual.

annual average PLUS FIFTY ?!
the warmest period in the history of the earth in the Mesozoic with an average annual temperature of + 25 ... + 30 ° C

[Usher]

I mean she was taller. I also did not understand the pearl about 50 degrees.

[Mooh]

Plus I put it, but I will make a remark: LAW - the legislative assembly, the registry office - civil registration.

[Virus-free crown]

Quote: MooH

Plus I put it, but I will make a remark: LAW - the legislative assembly, the registry office - civil registration.

Plus you put it too

I ... just ... I HOPE you know that here on VO I know Russian the worst of all - I wrote about this on several occasions

Well ... as my first Teacher in the days of the USSR said about me in the first grade - "The crown will not be a crown if it does not make a bunch of achaputks"

[Mooh]

Enemy of the people
I put a plus for the story, and not for the spelling. History is excellent, especially in relation to historical science. And the ashipkas do everything. My wife thinks that she has absolute literacy and an innate sense of language, but at the same time in Whatsapp sometimes writes such a game that the meaning is difficult to understand;)

[Virus-free crown]

Quote: MooH

Enemy of the people
I put a plus for the story, and not for the spelling. History is excellent, especially in relation to historical science. And the ashipkas do everything. My wife thinks that she has absolute literacy and an innate sense of language, but at the same time in Whatsapp sometimes writes such a game that the meaning is difficult to understand;)

Duc-s ... I wrote about history after all ...
Something's not beating with me ... For 200+ years, Tatars and Mongols raped Russian women ... but ... something in Russians, even in a microscope, you won't find features of Tatars with Mongols ... riddle, huh ?!

[Andrey Korotkov]

[/ Quote]

Quote: Crown without virus

[quote = AML] Humanity I know my history for sure only 200 years. Everything else can be recorded in fiction

But in vain !!! you all minus this post
Only 21 years have passed since my wife and I submitted an application to the registry office ... and you know what the joke is ?!

My wife is sure that when we passed the ZAKS (just like that, walking in the park near the ZAKS) it's me !!! I dragged her to the ZAKS ... Well, I EXACTLY remember it !!! that I did not think then "surrender at the mercy of the Winner"

That's how we still argue - who dragged whom to the ZAKS ... and BOTH !!! sure - it was done by another

so ... I think ... in 200 years there will be a LEGEND of how my wife and I got married))))))))))

Happy for you, on the topic-

[Virus-free crown]

Quote: Andrey Korotkov

Quote: Crown without virus

Quote: AML

Humanity I know my history for sure only 200 years. Everything else can be recorded in fiction

But in vain !!! you all minus this post
Only 21 years have passed since my wife and I submitted an application to the registry office ... and you know what the joke is ?!

My wife is sure that when we passed the ZAKS (just like that, walking in the park near the ZAKS) it's me !!! I dragged her to the ZAKS ... Well, I EXACTLY remember it !!! that I did not think then "surrender at the mercy of the Winner"

That's how we still argue - who dragged whom to the ZAKS ... and BOTH !!! sure - it was done by another

so ... I think ... in 200 years there will be a LEGEND of how my wife and I got married))))))))))

Happy for you, on the topic-

Clarify why the "minus" on the topic for me ?!

[aglet]

"This is how we still argue - who dragged whom to the ZAKS"
I'll tell you honestly, just don't be offended: ZAKS is spelled correctly like this - registry

[Petrik66]

It is immediately clear that we have a lady on our site (judging by the minus).

[Yuriy71]

With all due respect to the Author, as a historian, I ask him to answer a number of questions about the Yoke that lie on the surface:
1. Everyone knows that during the seizure and colonization of vast territories, the local population is being cross-linked! Look at Latin America, for example. Mestizos, mulattoes were formed ... Why is this not so in Russia? Or, did the Mongols spoil Russian girls? Or, Iga was not?
2. The number of the Horde reached, according to historians, Hundreds of thousands of people! Let's take, say, 200 thousand! Each had a horse and 4-5 replacement horses! Have you digested this amount? A million, at least! Every horse needs food! Can you imagine its amount ?! After all, the Horde allegedly moved in winter! How do you represent the Million Horses Waterhole !? It would stretch for hundreds of kilometers!
3. Every horse needs a shoe and a spare shoe! Can you imagine how much One horseshoe weighs and how much metal the Mongols needed to have Only for horseshoes !? And yet it is also necessary - edged weapons, arrowheads, spears, armor .... For all this, a Metallurgical Base is needed! Where did you see her in Mongolia !? There was no such opportunity even in the conquered countries !!!
4. Have you ever been to Mongolia? Two or three yurts for many square kilometers! Where could the Mongols recruit hundreds of thousands of warriors?
5. Why during the "IGA" time more churches were built in Russia than in the entire previous Christian history?
6. Why is the conquest of this level not reflected in the History of the Mongols?
These are only Superficial questions, as they say, Offhand! You can continue this topic indefinitely!

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

there is one more moment the horde is not an army this is a camp of nomads, with women, children, old people, yurts, flocks of sheep and, most importantly, why did they all flood across the mainland to its other end ?!

[Yuriy71]

I completely agree! ))) You can add item # 7

[Catfish]

... for what hell did they all flood across the mainland to its other end ?!

Exclusively for the love of travel.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Sea Cat

Purely for the love of travel

and if you consider that in the steppe where they walked in winter to minus forty and a terrible wind, then in the coffin I saw such trips

[Catfish]

The taste and color ...

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Sea Cat

The taste and color ...

here it is extremely controversial, even now if in winter the car has stalled in those places, a very large Shenzhen will never get home

[Catfish]

The horse does not stall, you can eat it on the edge of it, which is what other five people did at a later time.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Sea Cat

The horse does not stall

Are you seriously?!
in a blizzard near Tselinograd never hit?

[Catfish]

I didn’t have a chance, but somehow I had to fiddle with the stalled "Half-four" in winter. But everything worked out, we did not go to the winter exercises without vodka. And on summer ones too ...

[Undecim]

we did not go to winter exercises without vodka. And on summer ones too ..
Was vodka used to launch the T-54?

[Catfish]

Absolutely and obligatory. In winter, in the cold, it is very problematic to start a diesel engine without a heater.

[Undecim]

So vodka doesn't burn, does it?

[Catfish]

But it warms and invigorates.
The engine also has a regular heater.

[Fan-fan]

I was in the steppe in winter, the Kazakhs call the death of horses Jut - a massive death of livestock caused by icing of pastures or heavy snowfall, which makes it difficult for livestock to graze. So everything about the Kulikovo battle is doubtful. I was interested in this issue before, and so - the first mention of this battle was written 150 years after the battle itself. What do you think, over 150 years, have they misinterpreted a lot or a little?

[Free wind]

Very tasty meat, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Catfish]

There is nothing shameful in the fact that people eat horse meat, shameful is present when they eat their own vehicle. And this is not the fault of the one who eats his horse, but of the commander who brought his subordinate to such a state.
This is what we are talking about.

[Free wind]

So the horses were used, for these purposes, both a vehicle and a hedgehog. Bulls are exactly the same, deer, llamas. And the vehicle and food, and there is nothing to be ashamed of, and dogs too. By the way, the horses are quite happy to eat dried and salted meat and fish, though if they are accustomed to this from fervor. The Mongols have seized an inexhaustible source of salt.

[Catfish]

But not in the European army of the nineteenth century?
For the rest, of course, you are absolutely right.

[Free wind]

So we are in Siberia and live in such conditions. They went to look for places where it is warmer.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

We lived a millennium before, but then they decided that it was cold?

[Korsar4]

Stepan Razin - for zipuns.
And these worthy people behind the magnets?

[Catfish]

And no matter how you call him - a bandit, he is also a bandit in Africa.

[Nazar]

Vasilenko Vladimir - And the same question. for example Dezhnev, or would you not like to ask Khabarov?

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Nazar

And the same question. for example Dezhnev, or would you not like to ask Khabarov?

do not confuse the gift of God with scrambled eggs, they had clear incentives that did not arise suddenly over a cup of tea during breakfast and they did not contradict their mentality

[LTMax]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

And most importantly, what kind of hell did they all flood across the mainland to its other end ?!

Well, the Jews went, and the Mongols are worse ???

[true_rover]

As for Mongolian horses, and by the way it is mentioned that Mongolian horses were not shoehorned https://proza.ru/2016/05/16/1818. And you also imagine a horde of 200 thousand in the 13th century, if, for comparison, about 250 thousand people participated in the Battle of Borodino on both sides

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: true_rover

And you also represent a horde of 200 thousand in the 13th century

even 10 thousand is already too much for the steppe

[Yuriy71]

Take the history textbooks of the USSR, any, raise the topic, take the books about Baty .... how Historians represented the Invasion and see how many they gave! I also say that this is ridiculous !!! And to say that Russia was conquered by the Horde of 10-15 thousand is not to respect the Ancestors and consider them complete ...

[Yuriy71]

Can you imagine what will happen to a horse that has to travel thousands of kilometers if it is not shod? It is immediately clear that you have not seen this animal in the eyes and you have no idea of ​​what hooves are!)

[Usher]

Quote: Yuriy71

Can you imagine what will happen to a horse that has to travel thousands of kilometers if it is not shod? It is immediately clear that you have not seen this animal in the eyes and you have no idea of ​​what hooves are!)

Have you ever ridden a Mongolian horse, my dear?

[Yuriy71]

I watch how they "minus" me here - it's just ridiculous! As for horses, I have an idea, really NOT ABOUT MONGOLS! It still remains for you to add, in the light of Traditional History, that "There were such wonderful horses that could go without food for weeks, without water! And in general, they were Extremely Not demanding! And, even, not shod and hungry, thousands of km and participate in battles "! Dear, if there were such Beings in the world, then people would never have invented tanks !!!

[Usher]

Quote: Yuriy71

I watch how they "minus" me here - it's just ridiculous! As for horses, I have an idea, really NOT ABOUT MONGOLS! It still remains for you to add, in the light of Traditional History, that "There were such wonderful horses that could go without food for weeks, without water! And in general, they were Extremely Not demanding! And, even, not shod and hungry, thousands of km and participate in battles "! Dear, if there were such Beings in the world, then people would never have invented tanks !!!

What does the tanks have to do with it? Tanks are a response to the increased firepower of infantry on the defensive. Mongolian horses are just that. There is a related breed, the Yakut horse, it lives in free grazing even in winter. And feeds on pasture. These are not fairy tales.

[GTYCBJYTH2021]

Quote: Yuriy71

Can you imagine what will happen to a horse that has to travel thousands of kilometers if it is not shod? It is immediately clear that you have not seen this animal in the eyes and you have no idea of ​​what hooves are!)

Zebras and onagers live without horseshoes and do not grieve ..... They run on the ground ..... A horse-horse, why should you shoe? Tell us...

[Yuriy71]

Break away from the metropolis, go to a village where there are still horses and ask this question!

[Andobor]

Quote: Yuriy71

Can you imagine what will happen to a horse that has to travel thousands of kilometers if it is not shod?

Read Pliev about the Manzhur operation, he also had no idea, and the Mongols did not forge, and there was a joint, and only because they were left with one horse, they sent the rest to the front, and this is their food and shift, and they could not eat porridge, for them it is not much better than sawdust.

[Usher]

Quote: true_rover

As for Mongolian horses, and by the way it is mentioned that Mongolian horses were not shoehorned https://proza.ru/2016/05/16/1818. And you also imagine a horde of 200 thousand in the 13th century, if, for comparison, about 250 thousand people participated in the Battle of Borodino on both sides

And who is talking about 200 thousand at a time?

[Sergey Valov]

"According to historians Hundreds of thousands of people!" - it depends on which historians. I have met a more or less real number of 50-70 thousand people. About 4-5 replacement horses can also be said to be a myth. Although Napoleon brought several hundred thousand of them ...
“We need a metallurgical base” - If you make it at a time, then you need it, but if you accumulate for years, especially weapons, which in those days were valued dearly and were never thrown away, then a completely solvable task.
“To recruit hundreds of thousands of soldiers” - as I wrote above, not hundreds, but dozens, and secondly, about the blood tax, I hope you've heard?
“More temples were built” - because it was more profitable for the Mongols not to cut out the population under the knife, but to milk the countries they conquered, giving them internal self-government.
"Not reflected?" - I don't know, but it is reflected, for example, in European documents (the Mongols, after all, have sunk to Italy), but I myself have been to the ruins of Samarkand, I have seen them.
“To continue indefinitely” - of course you can, if you don’t believe the documents in principle.

[andrew42]

For all the delusionalism of the official Karamzin concept of the "Mongol" invasion, the topic of the Don massacre is a completely different topic. In the first case, the Batuy "warriors of the winter forest" smashed the city to smithereens hundreds of miles away in the "non-stop" mode, while the Russian "natives" never dared to conduct large-scale military operations in winter, the maximum could conditionally from Pereyaslavl to Kostroma drive away - "get zipuns" and the prince-competitor from the city to turn, and that is not a fact that for a long time. This is the whole delusion. But the Battle of Kulikovo, whatever you call it, is a different topic. Concentrated confrontation of large combined military forces. On both sides, the troops "rallied", the opposing armies were multinational, and the most interesting thing is that the Russians won a victory over the "nomads" in a horse battle, which hitherto did not smell, starting from the meeting with the Advanced Regiment and ending with the cavalry strike of the Ambush Regiment. And the "nomads" are credited with the presence of the Genoese mercenary infantry, which is more than strange. Although, in both stories. separated by 2 centuries, there is one common strangeness: the problem of identifying the opposing sides.

[Cartalon]

1) Because the Mongols conquered the Steppe and lived there, there were only a couple of campaigns to Russia.
2) the number of hordes in the western campaign is a maximum of 50 thousand, of which no more than 30 thousand are in one place.
3) are you sure that the Mongol horses needed horseshoes, are they really needed in the steppe?
4) the Mongols did not recruit hundreds of thousands, 110 thousand, the entire militia of the Halki steppe dwellers can mobilize every fifth.
5) during the Yoke, stone construction in Russia ceased, with the exception of Novgorod.
6) the author of the Secret Legend does not agree with you

[Korsar4]

And just read Kalashnikov - half of the questions will disappear.
It is upsetting that these questions are repeated every time. But just a carbon copy. It's just not even interesting to answer.

[Kirill Petrov_2]

YES, because the "Mongols" are not the ones that came from the Urals and Siberia, just mestizos - a mixture of Slavs. Aryans and Tatars ...

[Yuriy71]

Smart ass! There were no Tatars then! There was BULGARIA - the ancestors of the Tatars! And the "brothers" of the Bulgarians who reached the Balkan Peninsula !!!

[Kirill Petrov_2]

Smart guy and when then? Which of the Bulgarians are warriors - it is better not to have fun

[Usher]

Quote: Yuriy71

With all due respect to the Author, as a historian, I ask him to answer a number of questions about the Yoke that lie on the surface:
1. Everyone knows that during the seizure and colonization of vast territories, the local population is being cross-linked! Look at Latin America, for example. Mestizos, mulattoes were formed ... Why is this not so in Russia? Or, did the Mongols spoil Russian girls? Or, Iga was not?
2. The number of the Horde reached, according to historians, Hundreds of thousands of people! Let's take, say, 200 thousand! Each had a horse and 4-5 replacement horses! Have you digested this amount? A million, at least! Every horse needs food! Can you imagine its amount ?! After all, the Horde allegedly moved in winter! How do you represent the Million Horses Waterhole !? It would stretch for hundreds of kilometers!
3. Every horse needs a shoe and a spare shoe! Can you imagine how much One horseshoe weighs and how much metal the Mongols needed to have Only for horseshoes !? And yet it is also necessary - edged weapons, arrowheads, spears, armor .... For all this, a Metallurgical Base is needed! Where did you see her in Mongolia !? There was no such opportunity even in the conquered countries !!!
4. Have you ever been to Mongolia? Two or three yurts for many square kilometers! Where could the Mongols recruit hundreds of thousands of warriors?
5. Why during the "IGA" time more churches were built in Russia than in the entire previous Christian history?
6. Why is the conquest of this level not reflected in the History of the Mongols?
These are only Superficial questions, as they say, Offhand! You can continue this topic indefinitely!

Judging by your questions, you are not at all in the subject. You don't even know such trivial questions about metallurgy among the Mongols. Do you know that the Mongolian peoples have the best silver coinage in the world? Or about mestizos, you know what the Mongolian army was famous for? Not horse archers (there were plenty of them in other armies), not tactics (the commanders were no more stupid). And an iron discipline, the same as that of early Rome. And if there was an order to destroy a village / city, it was destroyed, not raped, not taken prisoner (how will you drag slaves with horsemen?), But simply killed. And the dead give birth? An army came and destroyed the city. Anything about what impurities you can talk about here? They brought the locals into submission and left. There were no garrisons and all that. The Mongols did not settle with the Russians or someone else, with the exception of several clans who went to Central Asia. If the Mongols did not settle, where did the genes come from? But even such a simple analysis is apparently beyond the power of some people. And they prove something. Even the materiel did not bother to find out and still criticize. Do you know that any faith was supported in the Mongol Empire? Anyone, there were many Nestorian Christians among the Mongols. That's amazing, huh? About a quarter of the troops. And the Genghisids understood that religion controls the population, if you control religion, then you control the people. The letter "L" from the word "Logic"

[Yuriy71]

I recommend buying a train ticket to Ulan Bator and familiarizing yourself with everything on the spot, and not offending people asking Fair questions !!!

[Usher]

Quote: Yuriy71

I recommend buying a train ticket to Ulan Bator and familiarizing yourself with everything on the spot, and not offending people asking Fair questions !!!

Believe it or not, I live nearby and have traveled to Ulaanbaatar many times, since visas are not needed, as well as foreign passports for residents of the surrounding areas.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

That's not all, we need mobile forges and blast furnaces. And then the wagons of iron ore on the rails. Mobile factories, of course, sew the same type of ammunition. At the same time, they managed to get close not noticeably and quickly. I understand in the days of the Romanovs to engage in substitute history, but Soviet and modern .. to expand imagination instead of looking for more real events? Perhaps these people who will play all sorts of nonsense, do not identify themselves as a simple Russian people, but as nobles who speak exclusively German and French. Moreover, many understand that during the time of the Romanovs there was a lot of golim propaganda, strict censorship, but they continue to die from the imp. Peter, imp. Augusta and other counts, princes of St.

[Petrik66]

1. "Everyone knows that during the seizure and colonization of vast territories, the local population is being cross-linked!"
Bravo - I have never met such a term. Apparently this is a continuation of N. Tikhonov's verse:
Nails would be made from these people:
Harder would not have been in the world of nails.
Is that about it? )))))))

[Yuriy71]

Bravo - NO COMMENTS has never met such a term!

[Antidote]

Interestingly, 28 Panfilovites is what a myth?
The fact that in each village there were several Trumans and Wilis is probably also a myth.

[Yuriy71]

This is probably the Author - the historian minus! )))

[didra]

I'm minus. I express my attitude to the statement.

[mark2]

One of the main questions is the exact time and exact location of the event.

Another spring exacerbation of the restless alternatives named after Fomenko-Nosovsky?
What's the difference what it was called then and when it happened to the nearest hour? Just take it for granted.
The exact date of Christ's birth was taken for granted, December 25 or January 7, without establishing the exact fact of his existence. And as the son of God, i.e. demigod, he was considered much later. So what? has it somehow influenced the development of civilization? So why the hell is the "historians" itching to deal with the history of Rus-Russia? There is only one answer. This is not a struggle for the truth, as they present it. This is a work to break down the historical self-awareness of the peoples inhabiting Russia. More precisely, even one people - those who consider themselves Russian.
Conversations about the impossibility of hordes of Mongols and the lack of written confirmation from the Mongols themselves are conversations from the evil one. There is no written evidence of the existence of Adam and Eve either, but this did not affect anything, does not affect and will not affect anything. This is just one of the myths of the Jewish people.

[sergo1914]

Quote: mark2

Another spring exacerbation of the restless alternatives named after Fomenko-Nosovsky?

Fomenko has a very beautiful version of this event. But we don't read books.

[mark2]

Fomenko has a very beautiful version of this event. But we don't read books

Especially if you know that these two wonderful "historians" are mathematicians, then the version is not just beautiful, but fantastic.

[sergo1914]

Quote: mark2

Fomenko has a very beautiful version of this event. But we don't read books

Especially if you know that these two wonderful "historians" are mathematicians, then the version is not just beautiful, but fantastic.

Well, not stupid at least read it ...

[didra]

You'd better read the historians. It's more useful.

[sergo1914]

Quote: didra

You'd better read the historians. It's more useful.

Was reading. They are all morons. What's next? These Achtungs have IQ = 3. What to do?

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: didra

You'd better read the historians. It's more useful.

historians claim
Ivan the terrible killed his son
Peter the first great ruler

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: mark2

Especially if you know that these two wonderful "historians" are mathematicians

and it was on the basis of mathematics that they built their theory, have you even read it?

[sergo1914]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: mark2

Especially if you know that these two wonderful "historians" are mathematicians

and it was on the basis of mathematics that they built their theory, have you even read it?

It's pointless. They are either dumb or ex-military. That is, they are very stupid. They and logic live on different planets. Humble yourself. But they are funny. This saves the site.

[mark2]

Sergio, your level of intellectual limitation is enchanting and worthy of respect.

[sergo1914]

Quote: mark2

Sergio, your level of intellectual limitation is enchanting and worthy of respect.

Well, here we are, civilians. We will disassemble the rifle. But they are comfortable for the Leader. But. Read it. Fomenko, he is an academician. Rather, Academician. He's smarter than most of the generals and marshals here. But it hurts them.

PS The fact that the local generalissimos and admirals consider me stupid - I am sincerely happy.

[Usher]

Quote: sergo1914

Quote: mark2

Another spring exacerbation of the restless alternatives named after Fomenko-Nosovsky?

Fomenko has a very beautiful version of this event. But we don't read books.

What does beauty have to do with it?

[Yuriy71]

This is from you - from the Evil One! Why is the search for Truth evil for you? And why should everyone take your interpretation for granted !? Are you taking on too much?

[mark2]

And why should everyone take your interpretation for granted !?

I am very flattered that someone is interested in my interpretation. and a counter question: why is the interpretation raised in the article true? because you like her better?

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: mark2

Another spring exacerbation of the restless alternatives named after Fomenko-Nosovsky?

tell me winter sailors stormed ?!
but the fact that by the "yoke" period there are a lot of questions that historians fundamentally ignore a fact that is undeniable

Quote: mark2

The exact date of Christ's birth was taken for granted, December 25 or January 7, without establishing the exact fact of his existence. And as the son of God, i.e. demigod, he was considered much later. So what?

with this date, everything is much simpler, it is tied to an astronomical event

Quote: mark2

This is a work to break down the historical self-awareness of the peoples inhabiting Russia. More precisely, even one people - those who consider themselves Russian.

what's the scrapping ?!

Quote: mark2

Conversations about the impossibility of hordes of Mongols and the lack of written confirmation from the Mongols themselves - conversations from the evil one

yes no, just not from the evil one, this is from the series that Russian slaves are from the end of the century, but a real description of the history of Russia can just refute this dogma

Quote: mark2

There is no written evidence of the existence of Adam and Eve either.

do you believe in adm and eve ?!

[mark2]

tell me winter sailors stormed ?!

stormed, but you probably think otherwise.

but the fact that by the "yoke" period there are a lot of questions that historians fundamentally ignore a fact that is undeniable

I remember how in the film "High Security Comedy" the actor Sukhorukov in the role of Lenin said: "One fool can ask so many questions that a thousand wise men will not be able to answer them." I am not sure for the accuracy of the quote.

with this date, everything is much simpler, it is tied to an astronomical event

Are you talking about a supernova called the Star of Bethlehem?
Scientists' opinions:
Halley's comet - 63 days in the fall of 12 BC e.
-the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in the sign of Pisces November 15, 7 BC BC, and the conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars in early March 6 BC. e. (according to Johannes Kepler);
-Connection of Jupiter with Regulus on August 12, 3 BC e. and Venus with Jupiter June 17, 2 BC. e., and on December 27 of the same year 2 BC. e. namely, that the stop of Jupiter among the stars as a result of the usual transition from direct motion to backward motion (according to the Australian scientist Dave Renecke);
- a new star that flared up near Beta Capricorn - was observed for 70 days in the spring of 5 BC. e. (known from Chinese and Korean annals
-Supernova, similar to Tycho Brahe's supernova - (according to Gerolamo Cardano);
- a new star in the constellation Orion - between 5 and 3 years BC e. (according to Chinese and Persian sources);
Which one is Bethlehem?

what is the scrapped?

and the scrapping is that you, as a Russian, if this is so, will be told that our whole history is complete nonsense, so that the gray bast shoes do not know a tribe, let alone the civilized West. And by agreeing with this, you agree that you are second class.

yes no, just not from the evil one, this is from the series that Russian slaves are from the end of the century, but a real description of the history of Russia can just refute this dogma

This is how the offenders reason. Poles and Ukrainians, eternal offenders, are also writing a "Great" story for themselves. The point is not whether it was slavery or not, the point is that Russia was able to throw off this yoke and then develop further.

do you believe in adam and eve ?!

I am not concerned with matters of faith. I only trust facts.

[sergo1914]

Quote: mark2

I am not concerned with matters of faith. I only trust facts.

Dude, this is called REGULATIONS. But there are other books. Here's how to explain it ... are there books smarter than statutes?

[mark2]

Are there books smarter than statutes?

There are, but you don't know for sure, dude

[sergo1914]

Quote: mark2

Are there books smarter than statutes?

There are, but you don't know for sure, dude

How can we ...

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: mark2

stormed, but you probably think otherwise.

apparently you studied the story from the film "Lenin in October" let it be known to you that there was no storming of the winter and Kerch in a woman's dress and where he did not run

Quote: mark2

and the scrapping is that you, as a Russian, if so, will be told that our whole story is complete nonsense

my advice to you find out what they say about our history now

Quote: mark2

I am not concerned with matters of faith. I only trust facts.

Do you think Adam and Eve are a fact ?!

Quote: mark2

This is how the offended women reason. AT

very comfortable position

[mark2]

very comfortable position

Comfortable for you.
on a parallel branch read a great phrase:
There was a woman of questionable behavior on the beach (this is about the hero of the video) and soon a large number of doubters gathered on the beach (this is just about you, offended)

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

in elderberry garden
what about the storming of the winter?

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

You may not care what kind of fiction is there, the main thing is memorized. And others are a tease. From scratch, a different look is not born. "Star Wars", this is also a story, you can discuss, to the point of turbidity, the events in each season, say - it's fantastic! - What's the difference.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Either the author claims that the Russian soldiers did not have any professionalism, then on the contrary, he speaks of the high training and experience of the commander leading the horse lava into the attack. A lot of words, repetitions. Is the author trying to convince him that he is right with his verbosity?
Where does the myth about the Genoese infantry come from then?
And another question - why did the author decide that the army is going to be assembled as much as possible, and not out of sufficient necessity?

[sergo1914]

... There is a group of people including historians

I admire this phrase. Are historians human?

[nikvic46]

I respect these guys. And most importantly, they came to the conclusion why the excavations did not give anything. All metal objects were very expensive at that time. Even in America, after a fire, only nails were collected. And everything else could simply rot in the soil. And what about the fact that we know only 200 years ago is too much. For example, a boy's birch bark was found in Veliky Novgorod, which shows that a boy of the 13th century could write. Rejecting the Tatar-Mongol yoke, thereby burying the history of all of Russia.

[Yuriy71]

I do not reject Igo! I asked the Author to answer a couple of surface questions! However, he apparently considers himself a Celestial! "This is not a Tsar's business"!

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: nikvic46

Rejecting the Tatar-Mongol yoke, thereby we bury the history of all of Russia.

What is it like?!!!
rejecting the storming of the winter, we bury the history of the USSR ?!

[nikvic46]

Vasilenko Vasily. The Tatar-Mongol yoke showed that at a critical moment the Russian people can become a single people. All over the world, in order to light up, there are historians who want to turn everything upside down. It would seem that very little time has passed since the WWII period, and how many fables have already been written.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: nikvic46

The Tatar-Mongol yoke showed that at a critical moment the Russian people can become a single people

What are you? !!!
just on the basis of the official interpretation, there was nothing like that, they robbed each other on the sly and shit behind their backs

[smaug78]

Quote: sergo1914

Quote: mark2

Fomenko has a very beautiful version of this event. But we don't read books

Especially if you know that these two wonderful "historians" are mathematicians, then the version is not just beautiful, but fantastic.

Well, not stupid at least read it ...

Have you read Fomenko's mathematical works?

[Cartalon]

An excellent video describing the real work of historians and archaeologists.
But the local coven of the Fomenkoids and other Arryans has at least a stake on the head of the scales.

[Andrey Korotkov]

[quote = nikvic46] Rejecting the Tatar-Mongol yoke, thereby we bury the history of all of Russia.
On the topic raised by the author, so many copies have been broken in modern history that it was possible to arm a dozen ambush regiments

[AB]

Historians have not yet been able to determine the 300-year period of the so-called. The Mongol-Tatar yoke in Russia, and even about the Kulikovo battle, you can not even remember. It is better to let everything remain as it is written in the History of the State of the Russian Mr. N.M. Karamzin.

[Illanatol]

Ruled out. After all, even the official historian had to revise Karamzin's theses about the "Mongol-Tatars". How does Karamzin describe them? Some savages in animal skins, armed with primitive and crude weapons, defeated their enemies with their biomass.
But as time went on, the views on the "Tatar-Mongol" had to be revised, the picture was too implausible. "Countless hordes of Mongols" became more and more estimated, but the Asian savages acquired advanced weapons and tactics, were in armor, like those of wealthy samurai. All the more wonderful and wonderful, as Alice put it.
It is characteristic that only the 3rd edition of Karamzin's opus has come down to us. The first two were rejected by the august editor and censor. So, not everyone wants to believe such an "edited" and tendentious work of a student of Miller and Schletzer.

[Usher]

The "stories" appeared. How are you not tired of the same procrastination already? "Yoke was not" "why there are no genes" "what they ate" "as best they could". Do you at least study the materials and works of normal historians? Or is it just the same thing you pull out of the Internet?

[Siberian54]

Genes, genes ... approached, navigated, men were almost exhausted, the girls were fucked many times and the slaves with them took those that remained, let's move away from modern stereotypes - 10-15 children for a woman is normal, 4-6 among them this Tatar will survive will not be because in the very first hungry winter they will stop feeding him so that one of his born without violence will survive (such is life then harsh and terribly pragmatic!) .. There are no genes for men and women almost equally (the institution of polygamy did not take root in Russia) ..and don't fuck it up here disputes ..

[Illanatol]

Where were the slaves taken? To Mongolia? So after all, the Mongols are genetically very homogeneous, which is not typical for the "imperial" people.
By the way, how to distinguish those born from violence from those born without? Not written on the forehead.
There was a yoke, there was not ... but the Mongols have nothing to do with it. The Chukchi had a better chance of creating an empire than these steppe losers.

[Siberian54]

ask your wife, she will tell you about the difference .. At that time, the city of Kafa flourished, one of the largest slave markets ..

[Illanatol]

Slave markets existed in Italy when the Golden Horde was already forgotten.
In the Cafe, the markets were dominated by slaves - not Slavs, but the inhabitants of the Caucasus. Logistics costs are less, it is easier to deliver the goods.
The relationship between Kafa and the Horde has not always been smooth. The Horde fought more than once with the inhabitants of Kafa, so severe restrictions were imposed on the Horde in the Cafe. Kafu cannot be viewed as a "business branch" of the Horde.

Are you aware that, starting from the beginning of the 14th century (possibly earlier), the "Tatars" began to move to Russia? They went to the service of the princes, adopted Christianity, acquired families. Noblemen - became nobles. Was their offspring also genocidal, starved to death?
So the genes had to stay, anyway. And they are not.
It's just that the Horde were not strangers from distant lands, representatives of a different race. They were the same Russians, for the most part. The Horde is the "Dark Half" of Russia, generated by its problems, strife and contradictions.

[Siberian54]

How many slaves became wives in the horde? .. the rest of the survival of children is 1 out of 10 .. Twenty-thirty Tatar surnames among 15,000 Russian noblemen .. No need to create unnecessary entities .. About logistics-Volga and Don for what or merchants of that time for idiots hold? After a couple of centuries, with unchanged logistics, about 5,000,000 Slavs left through Kafa to the Ottoman port.

[AML]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: AML

- Previously, the climate was different. The average temperature was about 50 degrees

Where?!
do not be offended but you wrote nonsense, the average temperature of what ?!
summer, winter, average annual, average water temperature?

Sad but expected. Is there a fundamental difference in this context? You see, there is even a wiki.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%B4

Do not believe the wiki, look elsewhere. I don't think there will be problems with the search. Nobody makes a secret out of this.

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: AML

- Is the earth round or flat?

really flat ?!

And think about it, it can be round and flat at the same time. And you know, the funniest thing is that this is not alternativeism, but ordinary relativistic physics. But ... a blue primer.

[Maks1995]

Wah! As proraldo then commentators.
Grown men, but they write as if they haven't even read school textbooks.

Good transmission. Radio. Only late. Historians have been promoting these views for 10 years now, and there are cooler videos, at least with faces ...

[Illanatol]

I remember how in Soviet times they wrote in school textbooks that more armies met on the Kulikovo field than at Borodino in 1812.
Such "tutorials" into the furnace :)

[Illanatol]

The Battle of Kulikovo has the same relation to "liberation from the Tatar-Mongol yoke" as Napoleon's fiasco at the Berezina to the Red Banner over the Reichstag. On the Kulikovo field, there was no confrontation between the Russians and the Horde, since Mamai himself cannot be identified with the Horde. In relation to the Horde, Mamai was a usurper, a renegade traitor. The Moscow army defended not only its principality, but the interests of the Horde itself, which Mamai, if successful, would have made an instrument of external forces, Western puppeteers.
Shortly before the battle, Mamai was expelled from the capital of the Horde by the faithful Horde patriot - Khan Tokhtamysh, although he managed to pocket the Horde treasury.
Dmitry, to whom both Mamai and Tokhtamysh made an offer of an alliance, made the right choice - he took the side of Tokhtamysh. Moscow's position in the conflict was not "peak", Mamai had more reasons for despair (a truly "Mongolian" name, yeah). So Dmitry could quite confidently go to the “arrow”. The only chance left for Mamai was to smash the allies in parts. But his army, which consisted not only of combat-ready Horde people, but also of the steppe rabble (Polovtsy, Nogai, etc.) turned out to be weaker than the Moscow one (although it had 1.5-2 times the numerical superiority).
After the repeated defeat, from Tokhtamysh, Mamai will flee to Kafa, to the Genoese (they probably played the role of representatives of the "puppeteers"). But, as an unlucky and useless slave, he will receive a reward from his masters - edged weapons with introduction into the body. The career of "Trotsky of the 14th century" ended there.
The "Igo" will last another 100 years, although Dmitry probably tried to speed up the process of getting rid of him. However, his attempt was thwarted by Tokhtamysh, which was right and met with understanding by the Russians. It was still early for Rus to get rid of the Horde "roof", it had too little of its own forces, and its western neighbors were too strong.

[Usher]

Quote: Illanatol

The Battle of Kulikovo has the same relation to "liberation from the Tatar-Mongol yoke" as Napoleon's fiasco at the Berezina to the Red Banner over the Reichstag. On the Kulikovo field, there was no confrontation between the Russians and the Horde, since Mamai himself cannot be identified with the Horde. In relation to the Horde, Mamai was a usurper, a renegade traitor. The Moscow army defended not only its principality, but the interests of the Horde itself, which Mamai, if successful, would have made an instrument of external forces, Western puppeteers.
Shortly before the battle, Mamai was expelled from the capital of the Horde by the faithful Horde patriot - Khan Tokhtamysh, although he managed to pocket the Horde treasury.
Dmitry, to whom both Mamai and Tokhtamysh made an offer of an alliance, made the right choice - he took the side of Tokhtamysh. Moscow's position in the conflict was not "peak", Mamai had more reasons for despair (a truly "Mongolian" name, yeah). So Dmitry could quite confidently go to the “arrow”. The only chance left for Mamai was to smash the allies in parts. But his army, which consisted not only of combat-ready Horde people, but also of the steppe rabble (Polovtsy, Nogai, etc.) turned out to be weaker than the Moscow one (although it had 1.5-2 times the numerical superiority).
After the repeated defeat, from Tokhtamysh, Mamai will flee to Kafa, to the Genoese (they probably played the role of representatives of the "puppeteers"). But, as an unlucky and useless slave, he will receive a reward from his masters - edged weapons with introduction into the body. The career of "Trotsky of the 14th century" ended there.
The "Igo" will last another 100 years, although Dmitry probably tried to speed up the process of getting rid of him. However, his attempt was thwarted by Tokhtamysh, which was right and met with understanding by the Russians. It was still early for Rus to get rid of the Horde "roof", it had too little of its own forces, and its western neighbors were too strong.

To the point

[AML]

Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

Quote: Usher

Average annual.

annual average PLUS FIFTY ?!
the warmest period in the history of the earth in the Mesozoic with an average annual temperature of + 25 ... + 30 ° C

What you can see in the warming reports is delta.
And if so? Over the past 100 years, the average annual temperature in Russia has increased by about 20 degrees. Does the figure of 50 degrees still confuse you? I repeat, we are still in MLP, or at the end of it.

[Sychev Vitalii]

One gets the impression that this Russian-Tatar get-together (in fact, did not decide anything cardinal) was beneficial exclusively to the Muscovite priests (from the Trinity-Sergius Monastery), so they heaped up so many myths ...

[Rod Vyshny]

A bit of reality from the ancestors and at the time of ancestors: the root of Ner (below, below) from him are the following words: Nert / North / Nord (North). We look at the ancient maps: North is below. Nothing complicated.

[avaks111]

Another myth-maker! Storyteller! Who finances the banquet at whose expense?