Military Review

"We must choose a tsar for ourselves, free from the Russian clan"

43

The leaders of the First People's Militia Prokopy Lyapunov, Dmitry Trubetskoy and Ivan Zarutsky. Discussion of the letter of Patriarch Hermogenes.

Hood. B. A. Chorikov

Enemy in the capital


After the death of the Russian army in the battle of Klushin (Klushinskaya catastrophe of the Russian army) outraged Muscovites in July 1610 overthrew Tsar Vasily Shuisky. The boyars, led by Fyodor Mstislavsky, formed a provisional government, the Seven Boyars. A Polish detachment headed by Hetman Zolkiewski approached Moscow. Taking into account the threat from False Dmitry II, whose army again went to Moscow and stood at Kolomenskoye, the boyars decided to come to an agreement with the Poles. In August, the boyars signed an agreement with the Poles, according to which the prince Vladislav Vaza, the son of King Sigismund III, became the Russian sovereign. Fearing the supporters of the impostor, the boyar government in September sent Polish troops into the capital city (How Russia almost became a colony of Poland).

Following Moscow, many provincial cities swore allegiance to the Polish prince. Voivode Pozharsky sworn in Zaraysk, Lyapunov - Ryazan. For a short time, the illusion arose that peace had come.

The Moscow boyars expected Vladislav to arrive in Moscow without delay, and prepared for his meeting. However, Muscovites waited in vain for the Tsarevich. Surrounded by Sigismund, they decided that the Russian kingdom had fallen, so the most daring plans could be realized. Sigismund was not going to send his son to Moscow.

The king himself, by right of power, was now going to take the Moscow throne. He distributed his fiefdoms to his Russian supporters, planted his people in the orders and took money from the Russian treasury. Sigismund granted Mstislavsky the highest rank of servant and equestrian, which before him was worn only by the ruler Boris Godunov under Tsar Fyodor. The appanage prince received new income. Mikhail Saltykov, one of the developers of the project for the election to the Moscow table of the Polish prince and the head of the Russian embassy of the Russian nobility to Sigismund III near Smolensk, took possession of the Vazha land. His sons were granted to the boyars. Fyodor Andronov became the confidant of the Polish monarch in Moscow. Under Shuisky, this thieving merchant fled to the Tushino camp. Sigismund made the thief the head of the Treasury order and the guardian of the royal treasury.

Sigismund did not want to hear about the cleansing of the captured Russian lands and about the withdrawal of detachments to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which were still ravaging the Russian years and villages. He demanded the surrender of Smolensk. Saltykov advised the Polish king to announce a campaign against the impostor and, under this pretext, occupy Moscow with large forces. Also, the Poles did not want to hear about the baptism of Vladislav into the Orthodox faith.

The Seven Boyars took over the maintenance of the Polish garrison in Moscow. Russian nobles served from estates, so the treasury spent relatively little money on them. Western mercenaries received large salaries. According to Zholkevsky, in just a few months the boyars gave him 100 thousand rubles to the soldiers. Such spending quickly devastated the treasury, which was already gutted by False Dmitry I. Then the boyars gave the Poles to feed the city. Each company received its own city and sent its foragers to them.

The mercenaries, feeling themselves victors in a conquered country, did not hesitate. They took not only money, various goods, provisions and fodder, but also wives and daughters of townspeople, even noble ones. This provoked resistance. Boyar's government, in order to avoid the uprising and the deposition of cities, withdrew the Poles. They began to withdraw precious objects from the treasury, silver, sending them for melting. Coins with a portrait of Vladislav were struck from silver.

Polish occupation


Zolkiewski was a reasonable man and tried to prevent a clash between the royal soldiers and the local population. His charter threatened with harsh punishments for looting and violence. At first, the commanders tried to fulfill the requirements of the hetman. However, he soon left for Smolensk to the king. Before his departure, the head of the boyar government, Mstislavsky, promised new concessions to Poland: he called on Sigismund, along with his son, to Moscow to rule the Russian state until Vladislav matured. Instead of Zholkiewski, the Polish garrison was headed by Alexander Gonsevsky.

The position of Mstislavsky and the politician of the Polish king, who generously distributed Duma ranks to “thin people” in order to create a support for himself in the Russian capital, caused a split in the Semboyarshchyna. Patriarch Germogen, princes Andrei Golitsyn and Ivan Vorotynsky were dissatisfied with Mstislavsky. Golitsyn openly demanded that Sigismund stop interfering in Moscow affairs and rather send his son to Moscow. Otherwise, Moscow will consider itself free from the oath. Vorotynsky supported these demands.

Gonsevsky, in order to suppress the Moscow opposition, organized an intrigue. With the help of Saltykov and other accomplices, he concocted a case against Hermogenes and his supporters on the basis of false denunciations. Allegedly, the conspirators planned to let the impostor Cossacks into Moscow and seize the capital. They planned to kill the Poles, except for the most noble ones, to bring Mstislavsky to the Tushino thief. Mstislavsky was convinced that the conspiracy was directed against him personally and the best people of the capital. The rebels, according to them, were going to kill all the nobility of Moscow, and give their wives, sisters and daughters to the Cossacks and slaves. There was a lot of evidence of the preparation of the uprising in Moscow. Supporters of the impostor agitated the people against the Polish prince almost openly. Golitsyn easily proved his innocence in court. However, Gonsevsky feared Golitsyn most of all, he ordered his arrest. The prince was killed in custody.

Vorotynsky was also taken into custody. He was an agreeable person, quickly reached an agreement with opponents and he was returned to the Boyar Duma. Hermogenes was the most determined opponent of the impostor and the Kaluga camp. Therefore, no one believed in his connection with the Tushino thief. However, the court convicted him. The Patriarch was imprisoned.

Having broken the boyar opposition, Gonsevsky strengthened the occupation regime. He brought the soldiers into the Kremlin. At the gates were now not only archers, but also German mercenaries. The keys to the Kremlin gates were handed over to a mixed commission of representatives of the Duma and the Polish garrison. The Russian streltsy garrison of the capital (about 7 thousand soldiers) was gradually disbanded. The rifle squads were sent to the cities. As winter approached, the Russian nobles, as usual, dispersed to their estates. As a result, the royal soldiers in the capital became the leading military force. However, they could only control the central part of the capital.

The strengthening of the Polish position in Moscow allowed the royal diplomats to increase the pressure on the Moscow embassy near Smolensk. On November 18, 1610, they demanded the immediate surrender of Smolensk. Vasily Golitsyn and Filaret Romanov, after a meeting with zemstvo representatives, defended the terms of an honorary peace. After that, the ambassadors actually became hostages in the Polish camp.

"We must choose a tsar for ourselves, free from the Russian clan"
Armor of the Polish hussar during the Great Troubles

Popular resistance


The troops of the Semboyarshchyna, with the support of Polish detachments, launched an offensive on the Kaluga camp of the impostor. They drove the Cossacks out of Serpukhov and Tula and prepared for an offensive on Kaluga. The impostor began to prepare a rear base in Voronezh and at the same time in Astrakhan. At the same time, the troops of the impostor remained operational.

Ataman Zarutsky in late November - early December 1610 defeated the troops of Jan Sapieha (former hetman of the Tushin thief, then went over to the side of the king). Cossacks seized nobles and soldiers, took them to Kaluga and drowned them. The Kaluga camp was more and more involved in the war with the Polish invaders and acquired a patriotic color. However, in December, the pretender was killed by his chief of security, Prince Urusov (How False Dmitry II almost became the Russian Tsar).

Sapega approached the city, but did not dare to storm and left. In Kaluga, no one knew what to do next. The Kaluga rebels began to seek agreements with Moscow. The Boyar Duma sent Yuri Trubetskoy to Kaluga to take the local residents to the oath. The insurgent world (community) did not listen to the boyar. Kaluga residents chose zemstvo representatives and sent them to Moscow to study the situation. The elected representatives visited Moscow and returned with disappointing the news... Cossacks and townspeople saw foreigners who felt themselves masters in the capital, and an angry people, ready at any moment for an uprising.

The world has sentenced not to recognize Vladislav's authority - until he arrives in Moscow and all Polish troops are withdrawn from the Russian state. Trubetskoy barely escaped. Kaluga rebelled against Moscow again. Meanwhile, Marina Mnishek gave birth to a "vorenka". Otrepieva's widow lived with a new impostor unmarried, and she “stole with many” (the child's real father was unknown), so Marina was despised. Kaluga residents solemnly buried False Dmitry II and "honestly" baptized the heir. He was named Tsarevich Ivan. The movement seemed to have acquired a new banner. However, the people remained indifferent to the "tsarevich".

The capital is boiling


The death of the impostor delighted the Moscow nobility, but the discontent of the common people did not diminish from this. A social explosion has been brewing in Moscow for a long time. Hatred of the dashing boyars was now combined with the actions of the interventionists. In addition, the situation of the townspeople worsened. The capital has long forgotten about the cheap Seversky bread. The riots in the Ryazan region also cut off this food source. Prices went up sharply. Muscovites had to tighten their belts. But the royal soldiers considered themselves the masters of the city and did not want to put up with the high cost. They imposed their prices on traders or took goods by force. Quarrels and fights took place in the markets every now and then. They could turn into a general revolt at any moment. More than once in the city the call-out alarm of bells sounded, and crowds of excited people poured out onto the square.

Boyars and Poles began to take new security measures. From the previous sieges, large numbers of cannons were installed on the walls of the Wooden (Zemlyanoy) and White Towns. There were many of them under the canopy of the Zemsky Court. The authorities ordered to drag all the guns to Kitay-Gorod and the Kremlin. All the stocks of gunpowder, which were withdrawn from the shops and saltpeter yards, were also brought there. Now the cannons installed in the Kremlin and Kitay-gorod held the entire posad at gunpoint. Gonsevsky's soldiers patrolled the streets and squares of the city. A curfew was imposed. All Russians were forbidden to go outside after dark until dawn. Violators were killed on the spot.

Muscovites did not remain in debt. They tried to lure enemies into remote places of the settlement and there they exterminated foreigners. Cab drivers took the drunken "Lithuania" to the Moscow River and drowned them there. An undeclared war broke out in the capital.

In Moscow, the patriotic movement among the nobility was headed by Vasily Buturlin, Fyodor Pogozhiy, and others. They established contact with Prokop Lyapunov in Ryazan. This Ryazan nobleman consistently fought for False Dmitry I, Bolotnikov, Vasily Shuisky. Under his command were numerous noble detachments of the Ryazan region. Then he campaigned in favor of Skopin-Shuisky, and after his death supported the opposition to Shuisky and the decision of the Duma to elect Vladislav as the Russian tsar. Procopius learned about the failure of negotiations with the Polish side near Smolensk from his brother Zachary, who was a member of the embassy. Then he met with Buturlin and agreed on a joint action against the Poles.

Learning about the storming of Smolensk, Lyapunov openly opposed the boyar government. The leader of the Ryazan militia accused the Polish king of violating the treaty and called on all patriots to resist. Procopius promised that he would immediately go to Moscow with the aim of liberating the Orthodox capital from the infidels. He sent his man to Moscow to agree with Buturlin on a joint performance. However, the boyars uncovered the conspiracy. Buturlin and the messenger from Ryazan were seized. Under torture, Buturlin confessed everything. Lyapunov's servant was executed, Buturlin was thrown into prison.


A. Vasnetsov. Walls of the Wooden City over the Yauza River

Role of Hermogenes


New executions and repressions did not frighten Muscovites. The ranks of resistance grew. Many hoped that Patriarch Hermogenes would lead the popular movement. The open speech of the church hierarch against the betrayal of the boyars earned him popularity. His fervent calls for struggle played an important role in popular resistance and the formation of militias. But his official position closely tied him to the Semboyarshchina. Mstislavsky swore allegiance to Orthodoxy, and the patriarch did not dare to completely break with him. Therefore, he did not support either the Kaluga camp, which had long fought against the interventionists, or the rebellious Ryazan people. So, at the height of winter, a large Cossack detachment appeared in Moscow, led by atamans Prosovetsky and Cherkashenin, a Tushinsky thief. They were recalled from near Pskov to Kaluga, but on the way they learned about the death of the impostor. Not knowing who to swear to, they turned to the patriarch for advice. Hermogenes ordered the Cossacks to swear allegiance to Vladislav. The patriarch forgave the Tushino boyars, but did not want to enter into an alliance with the former thieves' Cossacks.

Hermogenes believed that the mission of the struggle for faith and kingdom should best be entrusted to cities that are not tarnished in the "thieves" performances. The main of these cities was Nizhniy. In deep secrecy, the patriarch compiled an extensive message to the people of Nizhny Novgorod. Hermogenes announced that he was releasing all Russian people from the oath to Vladislav. He begged the people of Nizhny Novgorod not to spare their lives or property to drive out the Latins and defend the Russian faith.

“The Latin king,” wrote the head of the church, “is imposed on us by force, he brings death to the country, you need to choose a tsar for yourself, free from the kind of Russian».


Pavel Chistyakov. "Patriarch Hermogenes in dungeon refuses to sign the charter of the Poles." 1860 g.

To be continued ...
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
43 comments
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 2 2021 06: 45
    +4
    author: "Hermogenes announced that he was releasing all Russian people from the oath to Vladislav. He begged the people of Nizhny Novgorod not to spare their lives or property to expel the Latins and defend the Russian faith. Hermogenes announced that he was freeing all Russian people from the oath of allegiance to Vladislav. , no property for the expulsion of the Latins and the defense of the Russian faith. "

    Hermogenes to the Poles: "Why are you threatening me? I am afraid of one God. If all of you Lithuanian people leave the Moscow state, I will bless the Russian militia to go from Moscow, if you stay here, I will bless everyone to stand against you and die for the Orthodox faith."

    Orthodoxy created and preserved Russia.
    1. horus88
      horus88 April 2 2021 08: 20
      +3
      Orthodoxy has nowhere to go, either exist together with Russia, or disappear. So it was, so it is and so it will be.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 2 2021 09: 50
        -3
        Quote: horus88
        Orthodoxy has nowhere to go, either exist together with Russia, or disappear. It was, so it is and so it will be.

        This was not the case until the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

        And then, yes, Russia is the stronghold of Orthodoxy.

        It is no coincidence that the Russian state is a thousand years old and Orthodoxy in Russia is a thousand years old.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub April 2 2021 12: 15
          +9
          Olgovich, out of harm: Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Greeks are completely Orthodox. And Orthodoxy did not appear with them yesterday either.
          Belarusians and Ukrainians are also Orthodox. However, it was the only state
          1. Sovpadenie
            Sovpadenie April 2 2021 13: 02
            -1
            Well, don't tell me. All of them were not drawn to the center of world Orthodoxy. And they don't pull
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 2 2021 13: 16
            -4
            Quote: vladcub
            Olgovich, out of harm: Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Greeks are completely Orthodox. And Orthodoxy did not appear with them yesterday either.

            I agree.

            BUT! Third Rome it is with us!
            1. vladcub
              vladcub April 2 2021 13: 57
              0
              "Moscow is the third Rome, and there will be no fourth" I don't remember who said that
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 April 2 2021 18: 10
                +3
                The monk of the Pskov Eleazarov monastery Felofey, 16th century. hi
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub April 3 2021 17: 21
                  0
                  Thank. I'll know.
    2. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 April 2 2021 08: 32
      +5
      Olgovich, I rarely agree with you, but in this case I agree.
      In conditions when the "government" is compromised, and the enemies rule in the capital. Only Hermogenes retained authority
    3. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 2 2021 13: 31
      +3
      Come on. In fact, the Russian Church did not pass that test either; many hierarchs caved in under the invaders. "There is no power, if not from God," yeah.
      Who anointed the False Dmitrys for the kingdom? Are the shamans Siberian?
      And he saved the civic spirit of the "common people", which the powers that be did not manage to exterminate to the end.

      Concerning Orthodoxy. The term is not entirely correct, since originally, this was the name of the pagan faith of our ancestors. The Byzantine branch of Christianity should be called orthodox, which translates as "orthodox" or "originally true." This term was used by Patriarch Nikon. But the term "Orthodoxy" was too popular among the people, so the Christian priests appropriated it for themselves, especially since it was not possible to completely eliminate the remnants of paganism among the people (despite all the "reforms").

      I would not overestimate the role of the Christian religion in the formation of our country. They took place as a nation and without these priests. Moreover, the Christianization of Russia gave rise to the first split of the people, which is reproduced again and again with enviable regularity ...
      Then - "Christians" and "filthy pagans", now - "New Russian" and "Sovki".
    4. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk April 2 2021 16: 16
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      Orthodoxy created and preserved Russia.

      I doubt however. Although I give credit to the influence of Orthodoxy on the DEVELOPMENT of Russia in a certain direction. But ... do not forget that it was Orthodoxy that destroyed the monuments of the history of ancient, pre-Christian Russia. Then Nikon, with his reforms, destroyed the monuments of early Christian Rus. That is why Russia-Russia has only
      Quote: Olgovich

      It is no coincidence that the Russian state is a thousand years old and Orthodoxy in Russia is a thousand years old.

      I am surprised that you are seriously discussing this article. In my opinion, it is so easy for Mr. Samsonov to sleep with the laurels of D. Balashov, V. Ivanov, and other "historians" from literature. So he gave birth to this article.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 2 2021 17: 24
        -4
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        I doubt however. Although I give credit to the influence of Orthodoxy on the DEVELOPMENT of Russia in a certain direction.

        Orthodoxy has brought up our people as they are: the most conscientious and kind, in my opinion, and he expressed his soul in amazingly beautiful and skillful Orthodox churches and paintings.

        And so they walked hand in hand for a thousand years.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        But ... do not forget that it was Orthodoxy that destroyed the monuments of the history of ancient, pre-Christian Russia.

        eg? Only reliably
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        I am surprised that you are seriously discussing this article.

        The topic and those times are interesting in themselves.

        Yes, and there is no "matrix", "service society", etc.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk April 2 2021 18: 37
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich

          Orthodoxy educated our people as they are: the most conscientious and kind, in my opinion, and he expressed his soul in

          In Soviet times, when the number of believers could be counted on one hand, up to the 90s our people were such. And the church had nothing to do with it. Now the church is gaining strength again, and what are we seeing? Fall in morals, selfishness, money-grubbing. Did the church try? Of course not. Being determines consciousness, not the church.
          Quote: Olgovich
          eg? Only reliably

          Alas. Everything is cleaned up thoroughly. Only logical conclusions. The people could not come from nowhere. He was up to 800 years, he was and developed, and created and created. And where did it all go? - Destroyed. Do you think that Christianity itself has become popular in Russia? Alas. He was planted with fire and sword. Just like Nikon's reforms. All written sources of early Orthodoxy were destroyed. I hope this is where you don’t need proof?
          Quote: Olgovich
          The topic and those times are interesting in themselves.

          Who can argue with that.
          PI.SI. I am not an atheist, but I do not consider myself a believer either. But I respect the faith of my ancestors. Both to Orthodoxy and to "paganism". Otherwise, how can I respect my ancestors without respecting their faith?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 3 2021 07: 21
            -5
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            In Soviet times, the time when believers could be counted on one hand.

            nothing comes from nowhere and even decades of atrocities and violence could not erase the craving for Orthodoxy from the people: as soon as the rapists disappeared, temples appeared and millions went to temples.

            Like old women / old people are communists.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            until the 90s, our people were.

            He was brought up by Orthodoxy for 1000 years - it cannot be destroyed in 70 years.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            ... Now the church is gaining strength again, and what are we seeing? Did the church try? Of course not. Being determines consciousness, not the church

            The fall in morals, selfishness, money-grubbing in the early 90s, where did they come from - out of thin air? Where and when were people brought up with all this? in the USSR.

            Where tens of millions charged the water and watched Slave Izaura and shit?
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Alas. Everything is cleaned up thoroughly. Only logical conclusions. The people could not come from nowhere. He was up to 800 years, he was and developed, and created and created.

            naturally, he could not. But the level of development was such that there was nothing significant to survive - the Russian people are young by historical standards.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Do you think that Christianity itself has become popular in Russia? Alas. He was planted with fire and sword.

            it was different
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            I am not an atheist, but I do not consider myself a believer either. But I respect the faith of my ancestors. how

            To be Orthodox is respect for their ancestors: they were and they wanted their descendants to be so.

            We carry out. And the grandchildren are already Orthodox.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk April 3 2021 08: 47
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich

              nothing comes from nowhere and even decades of atrocities and violence could not erase the craving for Orthodoxy from the people: as soon as the rapists disappeared, temples appeared and millions went to temples.

              What kind of violence are you talking about? There was anti-religious propaganda, there was no ban. Do not exaggerate and do not believe the stories. I am a communist, I baptized my friend's daughter in church. Not because I or the girl's parents are believers, but because this is the USUAL of my ancestors. And no one executed me for that.
              The temples came about as a result of the government's policy of supporting the church. The church is exempt from taxes, and the church builds its religious buildings not only from its own funds and donations from parishioners and money-bags who want to atone for their sins of the 90s, but also with the help of the state.
              And millions went to churches not because they were believers, but they were forbidden, etc., but because of the despair of the 90s. People who lost faith in themselves and in the ability of the united people to resist the thieves' regime, which, in turn, consecrated the church, went to the church. Hand washes his hand.
              The Soviet government did not need the church. Because the government cared about all the people - read the Soviet laws, Labor Code. Compare with today's Labor Law. Today the worker has no right to speak at all. If you want to prove your case, go to court. And the Soviet worker did not have to go to court, the Labor Code defended him!
              That is why the current government needed the church, to "sanctify" its crimes against the working man. The current government protects not the entire people, but a separate category of citizens. Are you going to argue?
              Quote: Olgovich

              He was brought up by Orthodoxy for 1000 years - it cannot be destroyed in 70 years.

              Don't be silly. A person is brought up when he "lies across the bench, and not when he does not fit along." Something Mowgli was not helped by centuries of Catholic (Protestant) education.
              Quote: Olgovich

              The fall in morals, selfishness, money-grubbing in the early 90s, where did they come from - out of thin air? Where and when were people brought up with all this? in the USSR.

              And in the line above, you spoke about the 1000-year-old Orthodox education. And how do you understand?
              In Soviet times, there were more honest, sympathetic and decent people than now. Even though we didn't go to church. Are you going to argue?
              Quote: Olgovich

              -Russian people are young by historical standards.

              This nonsense was hammered into your head by would-be historians. Russian is the most developed language on the planet. How can he be young then? It became like this as a result of a very long development. Very.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 3 2021 11: 33
                -2
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                What kind of violence are you talking about? There was anti-religious propaganda, there was no ban. Do not exaggerate and do not believe the stories

                Why this agitation, today is not a time of continuous 70 years of lies of the USSR.

                out of 65 thousand parishes in 17, after 20 years 6, thousand parishes remained, the Patriarchal Church had the largest number of followers. Almost all of her episcopate, a significant part of priests, monks and active laity were shot or exiled to the camps; theological schools and other forms of religious instruction, except private, were prohibited.

                Only for their faith were repressed, 05 million people, some were shot, the shrines of Orthodoxy and the Russian people were blown up
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                And millions went to churches not because they were believers, but they were forbidden, etc., but because of the despair of the 90s. People who lost faith in themselves and in the ability of the united people to resist the thieves' regime, which, in turn, consecrated the church, went to the church. Hand washes his hand.

                people went to church for spirituality, which the Bolsheviks deprived them of
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                The Soviet government did not need the church. Because the government cared about all the people - read the Soviet laws, Labor Code.

                spit She was against the people: only 13,5 million people died of hunger, many millions were exiled and hundreds of thousands were shot-WHERE, IN WHICH country, THIS was, eh? Nowhere!
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                his Labor Code defended!

                lol
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                That is why the current government needed the church, to "sanctify" its crimes against the working man. The current government protects not the entire people, but a separate category of citizens. Are you going to argue?

                today people have RIGHTS that did not even smell then
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Don't be silly. A person is brought up when he "lies across the bench, and not when he does not fit along

                by whom brought up? Bolshevik Mowgli? No, Orthodox parents
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                And in the line above, you spoke about the 1000-year-old Orthodox education. And how do you understand?

                70 years of madness were not in vain.
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                Soviet times there were more honest, sympathetic and decent people than now. Even though we didn't go to church. Are you going to argue?

                more intimidated and deceived
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                This nonsense was hammered into your head by would-be historians. Russian is the most developed language on the planet. How can he be young then? It became like this as a result of a very long development. Very.

                show the Russian pyramids. Russian tombs. Cities 3/4/5 thousand years old.
                Statues, coins.
                What, all the damned priests and the Germans destroyed? lol
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk April 3 2021 20: 19
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Almost all of her episcopate, a significant part of priests, monks and active laity were shot or exiled to the camps;

                  For what? But the boil does not sit down for nothing. "All authority is from God" isn't it? But for some reason, the ministers of the church proclaimed an anathema to the Bolsheviks, called on the flock to resist the authorities. Is not it? If they dealt with issues of faith, the spirituality of parishioners and did not get involved in politics, no one would touch them. And since they opposed the government, then ... everyone is equal before the law. By the way, on the territory of the USSR occupied by the Germans, the priests collaborated with the occupation authorities. There are many examples of this. And on the Soviet territory, on the contrary, the hierarchs of the church began to cooperate with the Soviet government and immediately received relief.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  the shrines of Orthodoxy and the Russian people were blown up

                  This, too, I blame. There was such a sin. In my city, the bell tower was blown up under Nikita - the brick was needed for construction. And in the Kostroma region. (I served there as an urgent, went around the whole region on foot and by car),
                  Temples, churches, almost in every village, are standing, untouched. True, they did not act - there were no parishioners. All (!!!) were shot, as you write. And in the village. Ilyinskoe, Susaninsky district, in 1978 the church worked. He went in, with the permission of the father, admired. But in 80 it was closed - the parishioners were gone. Perhaps the komunyaki were forbidden to go to church. lol So?
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  people went to church for spirituality, which the Bolsheviks deprived them of

                  Don't talk nonsense. Compare Soviet Spiritless films and modern SPIRITUAL films. In which was more spirituality? And where is the church looking? And where does spirituality take root? In schools, in movies, theaters, in songs, after all. Compare the Soviet song and the modern one (two pieces of sausage and me were lying on the table ... You kiss me everywhere, I'm already drunk)
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  she didn't care about the people: 13,5 million people died of hunger alone, she exiled many millions and shot hundreds of thousands

                  1. People died of hunger in tsarist Russia. Don't you know?
                  2. The figure is taken - "and so that it was not enough."
                  3. In no country did power pass from the bourgeoisie into the hands of the people. Hence such opposition and bitterness of people.
                  (Only in China, so there were even more victims)
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  today people have RIGHTS that did not even smell then

                  And what are they? My daughter was in debt for 2 months, the third went, the salary. She has the right to go to court. True, she will be fired the next day, well .., this is such, nonsense. The main thing is that she has the RIGHT!
                  And in Soviet times there was a law - if an advance or salary was paid on Saturday, then it was issued on Friday, and if on Sunday, then it was paid on Monday and not a day later. And if they did not pay in due time, then this is a state of emergency on a regional scale! But I don’t remember this in 23 years of Soviet experience.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  who was brought up by? Bolshevik Mowgli? No, Orthodox parents

                  My parents were not believers. Not a thief, not a drunkard, 43 years of work experience at the same enterprise, I have government awards.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  70 years of madness were not in vain.

                  Yes, that's for sure. During the years of insanity, every village had a feldsher-midwife station. Today (information from the neighboring branch) tests are taken in Ukhta, and for research they are taken to Syktyvkar, because it is impossible to do this in Ukhta. And in the years of madness - easily. Yes, by the way, I signed up for a heart ultrasound, I was scheduled for May 28. But it's free. Do you want it faster? - Pay
                  .
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  more intimidated and deceived

                  laughing That's what I see you stutter, all so deceived.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  show the Russian pyramids. Russian tombs. Cities 3/4/5 thousand years old.
                  Statues, coins.
                  What, all the damned priests and the Germans destroyed?

                  Russian princes were not e-di-ot-s, so they did not need pyramids in the FOREST zone. They preferred wooden mansions; in a harsh climate, a wooden structure does not have a negative effect on the body. Tombs? What for? The Russians had a completely different culture of burial. She, this culture, did not need tombs. Cities? So there were wooden ones and I explained why. Statues? The Russians worshiped only their gods, making a statue (read the idol) of their prince was considered bad form. Coins? So initially they appeared among the huckster people. The Rusichi did not belong to them. Therefore, they used "currency"
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 3 2021 21: 41
                    -2
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    But for some reason, the ministers of the church proclaimed anathema to the Bolsheviks, called on the flock to resist the authorities.

                    1.Bolsheviks Illegal, unelected government.

                    2. They also shot those who did not call for anything
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    And since they opposed the government, then ... everyone is equal before the law.

                    almost all sentences were overturned as illegal
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    As they opposed the government, then ... before the law, everyone is equal. By the way, on the territory of the USSR occupied by the Germans, the priests collaborated with the occupation authorities. There are many examples of this. And on the Soviet territory, on the contrary, the hierarchs of the church began to cooperate with the Soviet government and immediately received indulgences.

                    cooperated with the people, and there and there, in the majority.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    ... And in the Kostroma region. (I served there as an urgent, went around the whole region on foot and by car),
                    Temples, churches, almost in every village, are standing, untouched.

                    blown up pearl of Russia-Kostroma Kremlin.

                    And there are tens of thousands of such monuments
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Probably komunyaki were forbidden to go to church

                    Yes. And yet the villages died out with them - exactly half of them disappeared - and you don't know that?
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Don't talk nonsense. Compare Soviet Spiritless films and modern SPIRITUAL films. In which was more spirituality? And where is the church looking? And where does spirituality take root? In schools, in movies, theaters, in songs, after all. Compare the Soviet song and the modern one (two pieces of sausage and me were lying on the table ... You kiss me everywhere, I'm already drunk)

                    funny: "the party is our helmsman", etc. nonsense-A gift to you.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    1. People died of hunger in tsarist Russia. Don't you know?

                    in the 19th century, and then, most of the cholera and not millions. With yours - in the middle of the 20th century, in years of peace-Many million deaths with mass cannibalism and corpse-eating - this has never happened in Russia, as in the world.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    2. The figure is taken - "and so that it was not enough."

                    1921-22,32,33,46,47 - all figures are documentary. But they were dying of hunger and in 1930,36,37,24,25 and the entire GV-see documents of the Istmath
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    3. In no country did power pass from the bourgeoisie into the hands of the people. Hence such opposition and bitterness of people.

                    the Bolsheviks had nothing to do with the people, hence such atrocities against him
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    And in Soviet times there was a law - if an advance or salary was paid on Saturday, then it was given on Friday,

                    all this died during the Soviet era.
                    Tell us about the "sick leave" and "salary" of the peasants in the 1930s. and their pensions
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Yes, that's for sure. During the years of insanity, every village had a feldsher-midwife station.

                    only the villages have disappeared, along with the inhabitants. And a third of the items have disappeared, and half of the rural schools are all with your
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Russian princes were not e-di-ot-s, so they did not need pyramids in the FOREST zone. They preferred wooden mansions; in a harsh climate, a wooden structure does not have a negative effect on the body. Tombs? What for? The Russians had a completely different culture of burial. She, this culture, did not need tombs. Cities? So there were wooden ones and I explained why. Statues? Rusichi worshiped only their gods, make a statue (read and


                    Ie. You have NOTHING. Except for words. And this is nothing.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 3 2021 22: 36
                      +1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      1.Bolsheviks Illegal, unelected government.

                      The king was not elected either.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      2. They also shot those who did not call for anything

                      And you don't need proof? Are you the herald of the truth?
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      almost all sentences were overturned as illegal

                      Well that's right, they were canceled by the anti-communists - the Trotskyists. A raven will not peck out a raven's eyes. Everything is logical.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      cooperated with the people, and there and there, in the majority.

                      That is, there is nothing to cover. Clear.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      blown up the pearl of Russia - the Kostroma Kremlin.

                      ??
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      Yes. And yet the villages died out with them - exactly half of them disappeared - and you don't know that?

                      I don’t know. I know that when the collective and state farms were dispersed and people had no jobs, all the peasants flocked to the city to look for work. Can you dispute this?
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      funny: "the party is our helmsman" and other nonsense-you as a gift.

                      Olgovich, aren't you tired of carrying all sorts of nonsense? All the people are singing Soviet songs. And he will sing about "our helmsman party"? Of course not. But the songs are sung. Watch wonderful Soviet films. And where in them about the "party ....." What are you talking nonsense? I give you specific examples from today's life in comparison with Soviet life. And you are engaged in idle talk.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      the Bolsheviks had nothing to do with the people, hence such atrocities against him

                      Are you really that naive? If the people did not support the Bolsheviks, would they have been able to win the civil war at the same time repelling the intervention of Germany, France, England, USA, Japan, Poland, Czechoslovakia? It was the PEOPLE OF RUSSIA, under the leadership of the Bolsheviks, who defeated all these interventionists and White Guards. Without nationwide support, the Bolsheviks would have failed.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      only the villages have disappeared, along with the inhabitants. And a third of the items have disappeared, and half of the rural schools are all with your

                      That is not necessary from a sore head to a healthy one. Sov. The power began to destroy the Trotskyist Khrushchev, the anti-communist continued (he himself admitted it) Gorbachev, finished off your favorite pseudo-democrat Yeltsin.
                      And the villages disappeared in your blessed 90s.
                      Enough, Olgovich, don't make me lose respect for you. You are zombified with cave anti-communism and therefore you cannot (do not want to, as an option) face the truth.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 4 2021 06: 21
                        -2
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        The king was not elected either.

                        at the Council elected
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And you don't need proof? Are you the herald of the truth?

                        there is such a thing as the presumption of innocence. Priests were killed for their priesthood.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well that's right, they were canceled by the anti-communists - the Trotskyists. A raven will not peck out a raven's eyes. Everything is logical.

                        The USSR recognized extrajudicial triplets, etc., illegal.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        That is, there is nothing to cover. Clear.

                        Are you talking about a million fellow citizens who served the Germans?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        blown up the pearl of Russia - the Kostroma Kremlin.

                        ??

                        You don't know that either?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I don’t know. I know that when the collective and state farms were dispersed and people had no jobs, all the peasants flocked to the city to look for work. Can you dispute this?

                        30 years by 1989, HALF of the settlements of Russia had disappeared from the face of the earth. Millions of hectares of agricultural land have been abandoned.

                        And the collective farms, in which a THIRD of the harvest went under the snow, are not needed by anyone. And from the "conditions" of labor 44)% of the population fled to the cities.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Olgovich, aren't you tired of carrying all sorts of nonsense? All the people are singing Soviet songs. And he will sing about "our helmsman party"? Of course not. But the songs are sung. Watch wonderful Soviet films. And where in them about the "party ....." What are you talking nonsense? I give you specific examples from today's life in comparison with Soviet life. And you are engaged in idle talk.

                        90% of owls' films will never be watched by anyone, they are party films, it is impossible to watch them. "Lenin is always alive" - ​​singing?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Are you really that naive? If the people did not support the Bolsheviks, would they have been able to win the civil war at the same time repelling the intervention of Germany, France, England, USA, Japan, Poland, Czechoslovakia?

                        The armed bandit will also defeat you.

                        no "battles" with the interventionists, by and large, were not: call "battles" with the French and the United States.
                        The Entente dissolved the Brest betrayal and liberated Russia from the Germans. And the Bolsheviks gave them FOREVER one third of the Hebrews. Russia. Japan was kicked out by the United States. Poland came to the lands that the Bolsheviks recognized as theirs in 1918
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Sov. The power began to destroy the Trotskyist Khrushchev,

                        under Khrushchev, people ate, dressed and lived much better than before.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        finished off your favorite pseudo-democrat Yeltsin.

                        EBN was brought up in the Stalinist USSR - forgotten?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And the villages disappeared in your blessed 90s.

                        You are simply illiterate, alas, half of the NP disappeared before 1989
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        You are zombified with cave anti-communism and therefore you cannot (do not want to, as an option) face the truth

                        You are given FACTS, your answer is simply Faith and Conviction.

                        By 1991, the country came dying out, with coupons and collapsed. Who ruled alone, huh?
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 4 2021 10: 08
                        0
                        [quote = Olgovich] was elected at the Council [/ quote]
                        Yeah. Mikhail Romanov. And the rest were also elected? [Quote = Olgovich] Priests were destroyed for their priesthood. [/ Quote]
                        No. For anti-Soviet propaganda. By the way, the tsars, their enemies, also did not issue tickets to Karlovy Vary. Some to the gallows, some to Siberia. Nothing personal.
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        The USSR recognized illegal extrajudicial killings in triplets, etc. [/ quote]
                        Troikas were created on the basis of a decree of the legitimate Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. For the first time, troikas were created by the tsarist government. They wouldn't hurt today. An example is the leaders of criminal communities - "thieves in law" themselves do not commit crimes, and it is impossible to bring them to justice according to the law, or it will take a lot of time and money to prove their criminal activity. Therefore, troikas were created. There is a lot of work for triplets today.
                        [quote = Olgovich] are you talking about a million fellow citizens who served the Germans? [/ quote]
                        Compared to 180 million, this is not so much. Every family has its black sheep.
                        [quote = Olgovich] You don’t know that either? [/ quote]
                        Are there people who know everything? Are you not one of them for an hour? Then you shake the foundations of the universe!
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        30 years by 1989, HALF of the settlements of Russia had disappeared from the face of the earth. Millions of hectares of agricultural land have been abandoned.
                        [/ Quote]
                        You're scaring me. Yes, it was, small farms (settlements) were taken to one village, the state built housing for them. They thought it was cheaper this way. Build a kindergarten, school, medical center, shop, club and all this in one place. And try to do all this in 5 settlements. Normal everyday logic. [Quote = Olgovich]
                        And the collective farms, in which a THIRD of the harvest went under the snow, are not needed by anyone. And from the "conditions" of labor 44)% of the population fled to the cities. [/ Quote]
                        Well, a third is not a third, but this happened, to be honest.
                        One might think that today "working conditions" have changed dramatically. But that was not why they fled to the cities. Are you going to live in the village? I’m sure not. And me too. Due to the fact that our state is industrial, the outflow of the population to the city is an objective process and does not depend on the form of government. Whether socialism, even capitalism, or even feudalism. All countries, Karl everyone !!!, have gone through this.
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        90% of owls' films will never be watched by anyone, they are party films, it is impossible to watch them. "Lenin is always alive" - ​​singing? [/ quote]
                        Again twenty-five and a pittance for the fish ... And there were no other songs? Have you ever been to weddings, homelands and other family celebrations? What songs are sung there? Is "God Save the Tsar"? Tired of my stupidity, honestly.
                        [quote = Olgovich] 90% of owls of films, no one will ever watch them, [/ quote]
                        Just now, Soviet films are in demand. And it is good that they created the "Retro" TV channel. It was not for nothing that it was created - it is in demand.
                        [quote = Olgovich] The armed bandit will also defeat you.
                        [/ Quote]
                        Indisputably. So bandits signed up for the Red Army? And they were headed by former tsarist generals, colonels and other lower officers. So?
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        no "battles" with the interventionists, by and large, were not: call "battles" with the French and the United States.
                        The Entente dissolved the Brest betrayal and liberated Russia from the Germans. And the Bolsheviks gave them FOREVER one third of the Hebrews. Russia. Japan was kicked out by the United States. Poland came to those lands that the Bolsheviks recognized theirs in 1918 [/ quote]
                        Oh God, who taught you history? Shpakovsky?
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        under Khrushchev, people ate, dressed and lived much better than before. [/ quote]
                        I do not know where you lived under Khrushchev, but in Ukraine, I lived there at that time, there were two hundred meter long queues for CORN bread, there was no other way.
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        EBN was brought up in the Stalinist USSR - forgotten? [/ quote]
                        No, I haven't forgotten. I told you - the family has its black sheep, and everything does not reach you.
                        [quote = Olgovich] You are simply illiterate, alas, half of the NP disappeared before 1989 [/ quote]
                        I may be illiterate, but - honest, unlike you. You are small villages that are disappearing for objective reasons, which I have indicated, by cunningly referring to NP, and you forget the abandoned CITIES in the 90s. Take courage, google, unpleasant discoveries await you.
                        [quote = Olgovich] You are given FACTS, [/ quote]
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        30 years by 1989, HALF of the settlements of Russia had disappeared from the face of the earth. Millions of hectares of agricultural land have been abandoned. [/ quote]
                        And you call this a fact?
                        [quote = Olgovich]
                        no "battles" with the interventionists, by and large, were not: call "battles" with the French and the United States.
                        And you call this a fact? Fear God.
                        [quote = Olgovich] Who ruled alone, huh? [/ quote]
                        An anti-communist, he himself admitted this, I did not pull his tongue. Or are you unable to understand this? Anyone understands this, even those who have graduated from the Soviet eight-year program.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 4 2021 11: 29
                        -2
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Yeah. Mikhail Romanov. And the rest were also elected?

                        elected a Tsar, not a president.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Troikas were created on the basis of a decree of the legitimate Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR.

                        The USSR recognized them as ILLEGAL
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Therefore, troikas were created. There is a lot of work for triplets today.

                        Are you on the top three accused, will you go? Without protection, without trial, in 15 minutes?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Compared to 180 million, this is not so much. Every family has its black sheep.

                        this was never the case, neither in OW 1812, nor in WWI, nor in the RYAV, etc.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Are there people who know everything? Are you not one of them for an hour?

                        the tragedy of the Kostroma Kremlin is known and it is being restored today, yes.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        You're scaring me. Yes, it was, small farms (settlements) were taken to one village, the state built housing for them. They thought it was cheaper this way. Build a kindergarten, school, medical center, shop, club and all this in one place. And try to do all this in 5 settlements. Normal everyday logic

                        stupid and criminal "logic" that led to the depopulation of Russia: and how to carry people to the FIELDS, for many tens of kilometers for inexpensive, etc.?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well, a third is not a third, but this happened, to be honest.

                        exactly a third. and 40% of the reclaimed land is NOT used. Moreover, on the one side of the land they were reclaimed, on the other .... they were thrown. Lack of feed-50%, etc.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But that was not why they fled to the cities.

                        from this: from heavy irregular, almost free labor
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Due to the fact that our state is industrial, the outflow of the population to the city is an objective process and does not depend on the form of government.

                        a wild shortage of workers is a constant problem of collective farms.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Weren't there any other songs? Have you ever been to weddings, homelands and other family celebrations?

                        and folk sing and modern and Soviet
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Just now, Soviet films are in demand.

                        10% masterpieces, yes. But who said that there would be no more of them without the wort?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Indisputably. So bandits signed up for the Red Army?

                        Find out - they did not sign up in the Red Army, but were mobilized by force, blackmail, hunger, hostages, executions, bail
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Oh God, who taught you history? Shpakovsky?

                        these are just facts, not lie.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I may be illiterate, but - honest, unlike you. You are small villages that are disappearing for objective reasons, which I have indicated, and cunningly refer to them as NP

                        so they are called by the state - and it also recognizes it as a tragedy - the population density of territories is decreasing, the degradation of roads, infrastructure, the savagery of territories
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And you call this a fact?

                        yes, read Denisova's monographs for example
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And you call this a fact? Fear God.

                        you name it, name it, it’s funny.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Who ruled alone, huh?
                        Anti-communist,

                        rules PARTY-single-handedly.
                        The result is in the window.
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 4 2021 14: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        elected a Tsar, not a president.

                        What is the main function of the president and the king? How does this function differ between the one and the other?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The USSR recognized them as ILLEGAL

                        Throw the trash out of your head and everything will fall into place. Not the USSR recognized, but the POLITICAL LEADERSHIP. Who was in our leadership then? I have already explained.
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        Are you on the top three accused, will you go? Without protection, without trial, in 15 minutes?

                        They won't take me. I am not a member of organized crime.
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        this was never the case, neither in OW 1812, nor in WWI, nor in the RYAV, etc.

                        Well, there has never been such a war.
                        [/ Quote]
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        the tragedy of the Kostroma Kremlin is known and it is being restored today, yes.

                        And I HAVE to know that?
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        stupid and criminal "logic" that led to the depopulation of Russia: and how to carry people to the FIELDS, for many tens of kilometers for inexpensive, etc.?


                        I realized that in agriculture you are neither ear nor snout. In your opinion, it happened like this - from a remote farm, the collective farmer's family was transported along with all his goods to a large village, with a shop, a school, a first-aid post, a club, they settled him in a house built for him (two-room three-room), but he did not like it (?) and he rushed into the city. And the poor Russian land immediately became depopulated. Bravo, Olgovich.
                        And the land that was cultivated by the inhabitants of the farm was also cultivated by them. They came to these fields on equipment, together with a cook and everything necessary. For 3-4 days, they did all the work and moved to another site. The place where they stood was called a field camp. And in the 90s, everything was really abandoned, the collective farms were gone, and the fields were overgrown with bushes.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        exactly a third. and 40% of the reclaimed land is NOT used. Moreover, on the one side of the land they were reclaimed, on the other .... they were thrown. Lack of feed-50%, etc.

                        It took place. I do not deny. I disagree with the numbers. She's from the ceiling.
                        [quote = Olgovich] Find out, they were not registered in the Red Army, but they were mobilized by force, blackmail, hunger, hostages, executions, bail

                        Yes Yes Yes. Former soldiers of the tsarist army armed (!!!) by force ... laughing And the officers too ?! Horrible! laughing
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        yes, read Denisova's monographs for example

                        And the tales of grandmother Arina, as an addition. So?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        rules PARTY-single-handedly.

                        Party - 18 million people. Where have you seen that so many people have at least something to rule? Are you smart friends? The rules, as now and then, are a small group of people. And rightly so, because seven nannies have a child without an eye. And the fact that this group of people, for quite certain reasons, I will not explain which ones, you still don’t understand, turned out to be anti-communists and led the USSR to a catastrophe.
                        A earnest request - let's stop the useless dialogue. I will not answer you anyway. Tired of reading your nonsense.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 4 2021 16: 32
                        -3
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        A earnest request - let's stop the useless dialogue. I will not answer you anyway. Tired of reading your nonsense

                        let's. For
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Tired of reading your illiterate rave.
            2. Illanatol
              Illanatol April 4 2021 08: 43
              0
              The Romanovs came to power thanks to the Great Troubles, another Troubles and ended their reign. Themselves and brought the country to the zugunder.
              The disappearance of villages is a consequence of the objective process of urbanization. How many rural people (percentage) were there in England on the eve of their Industrial Revolution, and how many are there now?
              The villagers have moved to the city, the majority do not really regret it. You yourself, go, too, do not live in a hut and the "amenities in the yard" do not greatly entice, go.

              The severity of the Soviet system is explained by the fact that it had to solve problems that were essentially capitalist (industrialization) and, at times, capitalist methods, very tough. We had no overseas colonies; we had to turn part of our own population into "blacks". Progress always went over corpses, alas ...
              But if industrialization had not been carried out, they would have become grazing forage for imperialist predators like Zimbabwe. There were enough people who wanted to profit at our expense in any era.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk April 4 2021 13: 45
                0
                Quote: Illanatol
                The Romanovs came to power thanks to the Great Troubles,

                Thanks for the help. But, it seems to me, there is a clinical case. No logical reasoning can prove anything.
        2. Illanatol
          Illanatol April 4 2021 08: 49
          0
          Everything can be destroyed, if desired.
          But the language cannot be destroyed or forged.
          Fuck our ancestors of the tombs? They preferred cremation.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko April 2 2021 11: 31
    +2
    with Prokopy Lyapunov in Ryazan. This Ryazan nobleman consistently fought for False Dmitry I, Bolotnikov, Vasily Shuisky.
    consistently betrayed everyone, especially Bolotnikov, when, during the battle near Moscow, his troops went over to the side of V. Shuisky. To betray in time is to foresee. smile
  • vladcub
    vladcub April 2 2021 12: 12
    +4
    "according to which the prince Vladislav Vaza became the Russian sovereign" the Samsonovs have a common feature: we forget the details or even interpret them at our own discretion.
    So it was with Vladislav, this agreement provided for: Vladislav's acceptance of Orthodoxy and his observance of Russian customs
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 April 2 2021 14: 35
    +1
    "she lived with a new impostor of a sketched" colleague, the author or authors forgot that the so-called "Tushino thief" was posing as: "miraculously escaped from death" Tsarevich Dmitry. And Marina Mnishek was considered the legitimate wife of the prince. Posu the child yourself: the husband escaped death, meets with his "lawful" wife, and with what fear will they go to get married?
    As far as I remember, divorce was not encouraged in Orthodoxy. Colleagues, does anyone know about Orthodoxy, were divorces allowed in Orthodoxy?
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 April 2 2021 18: 12
      +1
      Allowed and allowed. For a number of reasons. You can easily find these reasons in the internet. If there is a desire to know them. hi
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 April 3 2021 09: 03
        0
        Was divorce allowed during the Time of Troubles?
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 April 3 2021 12: 28
          0
          And even earlier. Well, look on the Internet and you will have info. If it’s so interesting. All information is in the public domain, click on the search engine * Orthodox Church and divorces *. Everything, nothing complicated. request
  • vladcub
    vladcub April 2 2021 14: 54
    +2
    "made the thief wear the Treasury order and the guardian of the royal treasury ..... threw the pike into the river" exactly
  • vladcub
    vladcub April 2 2021 15: 04
    +3
    "I stole with many" I thought that this act was called the same now and then. Not the point, but that Marinka felt the strength behind her, or was False Dmitry the second impotent?
  • Alexander Betonkin
    Alexander Betonkin April 3 2021 01: 10
    0
    "Seven Boyars" (term) since 1831.
    When the modern sources of the Time of Troubles describe the boyar commissions, there are phrases about the "seven-numbered boyars"
  • ksv36
    ksv36 April 3 2021 10: 39
    0
    Storyteller, and only.
  • Tneburashka
    Tneburashka April 3 2021 13: 58
    0
    It was a crisis, the Poles had seized their hands on the western Russian lands and, as they legally believed, since Danil Galitsky was from the senior branch of the Rurikovich, the king of Poland wrote to the Pope that Ivan the Terrible could not be the king of Russia, but only the king of Moscow and after his death, and since he was the last of the ruling clan, the division of the Russian inheritance began, it still haunts, the real coat of arms of Galitsky is a black jackdaw on a silver field, look at Wiki, and a golden lion on a blue one is the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Russia in Wiki. Russian lion, and this is what happened to Bandera 500 years later, under the Russian flag, they go to smash Russia, as if things are still there, here without faith this is self-identification
  • Shahno
    Shahno April 4 2021 13: 56
    0
    That's what I am. I will tell you my thoughts about the arrival of this dynasty.
    Not the best choice due to circumstances. It happens, no one can understand whether there is a plan or not.
    Ps. Roughly speaking, there is a proverb. Who dared, he ate.
  • Piligrim
    Piligrim 5 May 2021 22: 55
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Orthodoxy has brought up our people as they are: the most conscientious and kind, in my opinion, and he expressed his soul in amazingly beautiful and skillful Orthodox churches and paintings.

    This is not an argument. I can object to you that these qualities were preserved not thanks to Orthodoxy, but in spite of it. And after all, no one will adequately refute ....)))
  • Piligrim
    Piligrim 5 May 2021 23: 01
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    under Khrushchev, people ate, dressed and lived much better than before.

    This is in what period? And nothing that Stalin raised a cow, saved, and even milked a little, and this bald man only skimmed the cream and as soon as they ran out ... then you yourself know what
  • Piligrim
    Piligrim 5 May 2021 23: 05
    0
    Quote: Illanatol
    But the language cannot be destroyed or forged.

    I agree with the second part, but with the first .... look at how young people are now talking (texting) ... there are some angicisms on business and without business. Someone strikes a blow to the heart and knows exactly what he is doing.