Russia plans to "modernize" towed artillery means due to special equipment

Specialists of the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute "Signal" report on plans to modernize domestic artillery complexes and systems. First of all, we are talking about the modernization of towed guns.

The plans of VNII "Signal" are shared by the press service of the institute, which is referred to RIA News... So, it is indicated that they are ready to create a special set of equipment that could provide automated data entry on towed guns. We are talking about the data for the implementation of shooting, as well as the guidance of artillery weapons at the target.

At the moment, information for firing for many guns in service with the RF Armed Forces is entered manually. Artillery guidance is carried out in a similar way.

The new equipment will make it possible to modernize the towed gun mounts, to use them in the format of a single RSS (reconnaissance and strike system).

The equipment planned for implementation will make it possible to automatically enter data on the coordinates of the target after their identification and transmission via special communication channels. This will definitely reduce the preparation time for striking.

The VNII press service notes that some scientific research has already been carried out on this issue, including those that make it possible to turn towed guns into modern artillery systems with automatic data processing and target guidance.

The development itself, designed mainly for non-self-propelled howitzers, is reported to be carried out "in the coming years."

Comments

[Lech from Android.]

It's a good thing ... In Syria, this problem has clearly emerged, the gangs of militants there are very mobile on their carts and time plays a very important role in covering them with artillery fire.

[Yves762]

Quote: Lech from Android.

It's a good thing ... In Syria, this problem has clearly emerged, the gangs of militants there are very mobile on their carts and time plays a very important role in covering them with artillery fire.

... The equipment planned for implementation will automatically enter data on the coordinates of the target after their identification and transmission through special communication channels...

Maybe I'm wrong, but the longest is just "identification" and not "input" and "transfer" - the smartphone does not handle it, following the example of the same ones, "on carts".

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Yves762

the longest is just "identification" and not "input" and "transfer" -, and the smartphone does not cope with it,

Identification is a separate task for individual agents.
And here we are talking just about the same "smartphone" that needs to be regularly fitted to each existing barrel.

[Yves762]

Quote: Jacket in stock

Identification is a separate task for individual agents.

Although ... what about the "art duel" situation?
Not the point ...

But the fact of the matter is that in the current conditions (according to the experience of the same Syria, to which you are referring), this task is of higher priority - this is for "going."
And this "smartphone", which must be regularly fitted to each existing barrel " there is for "checkers".
By the way, the "towed" LS also often pulls with handles. Excess weight will not be in their favor for sure.
Macaw tuning it.
"Anti-aircraft" would go, al another "stationary".

P-s. S-s. Expressions like:

... the ability to automate barreled towed artillery for a sharp ( ) increasing its efficiency ...

- the RIA article clearly hints at a "divorce" and a desire to "push"

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Yves762

that in the current conditions (according to the experience of the same Syria, to which you refer), this task is of higher priority - this is for "going."
And this "smartphone", which needs to be regularly fitted to each existing barrel, is worth "checkers".

Nifiga.
These tasks are both about "driving".
Only now you can't teach a cannon to identify it, no matter what you attach to it. This is a separate topic. But to receive information from the "detection" in automatic mode, and not from the voice, this is exactly what is being decided.

[Yves762]

Quote: Jacket in stock

Nifiga.
These tasks are both about "driving".

Basically - yes (I'm not talking about that ), priority - no (and about this ).

Quote: Jacket in stock

Only now you can't teach a cannon to identify it, no matter what you attach to it.

FAQ? "PSNR-8M", "Sobolyatnik", AN / TPQ-48 (/50)....etc. - this is essentially what then ???

Quote: Jacket in stock

This is a separate topic.

That's just nifiga. This is all to one thing: the architecture of the LMS in the framework of the network-centric principle of warfare.

Quote: Jacket in stock

But to receive information from the "detection" in automatic mode, and not from the voice, this is exactly what is being decided.

And this is a logical contradiction with the above.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Yves762

"PSNR-8M", "Sobolyatnik", AN / TPQ-48 (/50)....etc. - this is essentially what then ???

This is a separate topic, not screwed to the gun in any way.
It exists by itself and is interfaced with the gun only with the help of a communication line and that "smartphone", which they were finally honored to start developing.
For there is not much sense from these "companions" if his operator will dictate target parameters to the gun commander by phone, and he will calculate the shooting table on the calculator of the shooting table.

[Yves762]

Quote: Jacket in stock

This is a separate topic, not screwed to the gun in any way. ...

MT-12R / 2A29R "Rapier" with a sighting complex with radar 1A31 "Ruta".

[frog]

if his operator will dictate target parameters to the gun commander by phone, and he will calculate the target parameters on the firing table calculator.

IMHO, but a long time ago all this has been done on tablets. Not particularly lazy officers ... If only the authorities suddenly banned, tady oh))

[hagen]

Quote: Yves762

And this "smartphone", which needs to be regularly fitted to each existing barrel, is worth "checkers".

If I understand correctly, the term "smartphone" means both calculators and electric drives of horizontal and vertical guidance mechanisms. And this is far from being "checkered". The calculation will only have to pull the lace (and that can enter the "smartphone") and "throw" shells.

[Yves762]

Quote: Yves762

By the way, the "towed" LS also often pulls with handles. Excess weight will not be in their favor for sure.
Macaw tuning it.
"Anti-aircraft" would go, al another "stationary".

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

They were always embarrassed by the ZU-23-2 installations or 2B9 mortars welded to the roof of the BMP transported in the back. Why weren't they put on a 4-wheeled chassis with immediate readiness to open fire? So an additional electric drive will be in place for them. They are also stationary firing points at the outposts.

[hagen]

Quote: Yves762

By the way, the "towed" LS also often pulls with handles.

Didn't you confuse the D-30 with the M-42? The fact that today you cannot pull with handles in service ...

[Yves762]

And 2B16 "Nona-K" or "Cornflower"?

[hagen]

Quote: Yves762

And 2B16 "Nona-K" or "Cornflower"?

Oh yes ... There are such. They fell out of sight ... But they can also throw a kilo of 30-40 for the sake of automating difficult processes.

[seregatara1969]

Will anti-tank crews also target smartphones?

[hagen]

Quote: seregatara1969

Will anti-tank crews also target smartphones?

If we introduce a system of corrections for target movement, why not? If the guidance drives are mechanized (electrified), then electronics can provide great opportunities, up to reconnaissance, prioritization and tracking of targets (not even one). There are already questions for the programmers.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: seregatara1969

Will anti-tank crews also target smartphones?

And why not?
If the target is out of line of sight, but is observed by reconnaissance equipment. Get target designation and dolby.

[seregatara1969]

So such electrified artillery was already in the Second World War. Right now, in any park or museum, you can touch these guns and look through the sight.

[lucul]

Good deal

It is high time .
Because in the usual version, towed artillery is no longer a tenant on the battlefield.

[bk0010]

Quote: lucul

Because in the usual version, towed artillery is no longer a tenant on the battlefield.

Yes? And the states do not suspect this: they ditched their new SPG (Crusader), sit on old Paladins, and are developing just towed 777s.

[Free wind]

Self-propelled units are much preferable. Much more mobile and cheaper. Each installation requires a towing vehicle. Time to bring the gun to the stowed position, and to put the earring on the hitch, requires skill.

[Professor]

Quote: Free Wind

Self-propelled units are much preferable. Much more mobile and cheaper. Each installation requires a towing vehicle. Time to bring the gun to the stowed position, and to put the earring on the hitch, requires skill.

As an intermediate option, the installation of a towed weapon on a mobile platform. It is much cheaper than an SPG.

[Zaurbek]

As I understand it, he was going to modernize ... and so there was an article about 152mm on the chassis BAZ 8x8.

[bk0010]

Quote: professor

It is much cheaper than an SPG.

The advantages of towed artillery disappear, but the advantages of self-propelled guns do not appear.
1) Cross-country ability: a truck with a gun on the "hump" is far from MTLB cross-country ability
2) The car broke down - the weapon is out of the battle, for the towed one they will simply drive another
3) Opportunities for transporting railway and air transport are deteriorating
4) Mask is harder
5) Harder to produce
There is only one merit - there is a chance to quickly get out of position.

[Professor]

1) The passability of towed artillery is even worse. The caterpillar is better, but only when all the logistics are also on the tracks.
2) The car broke down - tow it
3) The railway platform is like carrying a self-propelled wheeled gun or a towed gun. And if you also need to carry a towing vehicle, then here is a clear win over the self-propelled gun.
4) Masking is much easier. He shot himself in a couple of minutes and for cover.
5) Much easier to produce than tracked ACS. This is the chassis of a standard truck. The difference in price and service is significant.

[bk0010]

Quote: professor

) The passability of the towed artillery is even worse. The caterpillar is better, but only when all the logistics are also on the tracks.

Why all? Enough guns and shells. This is how I write - MTLB

Quote: professor

2) The car broke down - tow it

Tow to battle ... Yeah ...

Quote: professor

3) The railway platform is like carrying a self-propelled wheeled gun or a towed gun. And if you also need to carry a towing vehicle, then here is a clear win over the self-propelled gun.

Two guns can be crammed onto the platform, and more towed ones will fit into the transport plane. The towing vehicle can be mobilized on the spot, not MTLB, but you do not need to carry it.

Quote: professor

4) Masking is much easier. He shot himself in a couple of minutes and for cover.

What hideout? You need to hide either a healthy truck with a gun on the "hump" and shells or a gun.

[Professor]

Quote: bk0010

Why all? Enough guns and shells. This is how I write - MTLB

No, not enough. Reconnaissance, command, communications, kitchen and a whole bunch of other things must keep up with artillery. Put everyone on the tracks and you're fine.

Quote: bk0010

Tow to battle ... Yeah ...

Aren't you towing a towed weapon?

Quote: bk0010

Two guns can be crammed onto the platform; more towed ones will fit into a transport plane. The towing vehicle can be mobilized on the spot, not MTLB, but you do not need to carry it

In theory, in practice, air transport was useful only to bourgeois. They have made a weapon from titanium alloys and carry it on a turntable. And only they are able to bring down the turntables and ammunition and everything else. Nobody else in the world can afford this.

Quote: bk0010

What hideout? You need to hide either a healthy truck with a gun on the "hump" and shells or a gun.

The weapon is not alone at war. You need to mask the entire position. And as we observed in Karabakh, it is easier and easier to just leave the position and as far as possible.

[bk0010]

Quote: professor

In theory, in practice, air transport was useful only to bourgeois.

Quote: professor

And as we observed in Karabakh, it is easier and easier to just leave the position and as far as possible.

We are talking about different things. I am interested in air portability in terms of the rapid transfer of weapons somewhere to the Far East from near Ryazan, and camouflage is not only for avoiding a retaliatory strike. For small conflicts, we have enough ACS.

[Professor]

Quote: bk0010

We are talking about different things. I am interested in air portability in terms of the rapid transfer of weapons somewhere to the Far East from near Ryazan, and camouflage is not only for avoiding a retaliatory strike. For small conflicts, we have enough ACS.

In this case, transport aircraft will pull wheeled self-propelled guns.

[hagen]

Quote: professor

Much easier to manufacture than tracked SPGs.

I would add here, as a positive quality, the ability to multiply the mileage and the ability to move on existing roads without restrictions. Considering that the likelihood of local anti-Barmalian conflicts today is higher than a global world war with a general destruction of infrastructure, this is a very significant characteristic.

[lucul]

The advantages of towed artillery disappear, but the advantages of self-propelled guns do not appear.

You can try to put the gun on a car chassis, with the possibility of descent.
Well, in the sense that a car tow truck pulls a car onto a carriage with a cable for transportation. So here, when necessary, they pulled the cannon onto the carriage of Kamaz, laid it out, secured it, it turned out an ACS, when not necessary, we lowered the cannon, dug in, we got towed artillery.
Versatility is the advantage of both the one and the other option.

[bk0010]

Quote: lucul

Well, in the sense that a car tow truck pulls a car onto a carriage with a cable for transportation.

It will be difficult: the cannons have a strong recoil, it will be difficult to ensure both the stability of the vehicle and the mobility of the structure, and the possibility of the guidance angle at the same time.

[Free wind]

If you didn't manage to dump, then all the pluses are multiplied by zero.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

A self-propelled installation cannot be dragged by a helicopter, and cannot be dropped by a parachute, everything has its own application.

[Free wind]

A helicopter shoots down a trained shooter from the DShK, like a bully from a sparrow's slingshot.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

To do this, you have to transport the DShK on donkeys to the enemy's rear. Howitzers, they hit from afar. Can you handle it?

[Free wind]

In the enemy rear, are the enemies transporting howitzers by helicopters? And donkeys are very cool animals, unlike donkeys in

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

You are poorly oriented in space, helicopters transporting howitzers will operate in their own rear, which for you, who is going to shoot them down from the DShK, will be enemy. Your path with anti-aircraft machine gun installations behind enemy lines will not be strewn with roses.

[Free wind]

Dear, I'm not poking you. Why carry howitzers in helicopters to the rear. Moreover, the self-propelled guns will reach faster than the towed guns can be transferred by helicopters. They need to be delivered to airfields, loaded, distributed, secured, and cars are needed for this, then you need to do everything in the reverse order, a couple of soldiers will not be able to drag the howitzer. The forces are not enough.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Why do the Americans transport their M777A2 howitzers by helicopters in their own rear? They probably forgot to consult with you.

[mojohed2012]

What if the US and other "partners" against our military formations use EMIs or otherwise damage "automated information input" to such weapons?
Then everything will be the old-fashioned way ... by hand?

[Ros 56]

An interesting approach, and if you increase the accuracy and rate of fire, then it has no price. Although the loading is manual, the rate of fire can only be increased by reducing the aiming time. But in general, not bad, people are creative.

[Nikolaevich I]

And yet ... they were ahead of us! For example, the Vietnamese (although, not only they ...)! As it was said in one review-critical article, "they decide ideas how to put a nuclear reactor on a Columbian caravel"!

[rocket757]

The new equipment will make it possible to modernize the towed gun mounts, to use them in the format of a single RSS (reconnaissance and strike system).
The equipment planned for implementation will make it possible to automatically enter data on the coordinates of the target after their identification and transmission via special communication channels. This will definitely reduce the preparation time for striking.

You must do it.
A unified reconnaissance system, an automated fire control system ... this is what you need!

[maiman61]

This is cool! Well done Shoigu! Imagine how many guns we have, including at storage bases. I think thousands! Modernize, and they will be like modern weapons of today! Cheap and cheerful! You have to be ready for war NOW. And as new self-propelled guns enter the troops, these can be sold to poor countries! And such tools will be bought with pleasure!

[chenia]

Quote: maiman61

Modernize, and will be like modern weapons

They won't.
For permanent readiness troops, only self-propelled guns (120 mm battalion - type VENA, 152 mm - from the regiment and above MSTA-S, Coalition). You can also wheeled, but only armored (not open).

But the mobilization option, the very thing. And the best weapon for this is the D-30. And we need to make it self-propelling,
И

Quote: maiman61

Cheap and cheerful!

Quote: maiman61

can be sold to poor countries

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

What's the point of making the D-30 self-propelled? The shells will still have to be transported separately. And the possibility of landing will most likely be lost.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

What's the point of making the D-30 self-propelled?

Change of OP after HE, without involving tractors (speed, stealth). BP are laid out in advance on the main and spare. OP. Moving to another area of ​​the base, naturally with the help of tractors (and in a certain area of ​​the base, they don’t fucking crawl out of cover. Well, use the engine to speed up the transition to a combat position. And use the system as a mobilization option.
And landing is just more profitable with a self-propelled one (after all, the engine is not from KAMAZ). So it was with the SD-44 (the main airborne system.).

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The SD-44 weighed 2,5 tons, and the D-30 is already 3200 empty, a further increase in weight may be critical for transportation. For the Mi-8AMTSh, the existing mass of the gun is already limiting.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

and the D-30 is empty already 3200

So it is necessary to modernize. In some places (if specifically for the Airborne Forces.) To use new materials. Although I repeat, this is the mobile option. And the main artillery for the Airborne Forces (and these troops, it is desirable to have, as a constant readiness) NONA, supplemented by BMD-4 with the module "Bakhcha".

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

NONA's firing range is half that of the D-30, as well as the gun of the Bakhcha module. And the decrease in the mass of such a powerful weapon does not always have a good effect on its characteristics. There are many questions, it is too early to abandon the D-30, while its replacement is not visible.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

D-30 to refuse early

I admit it is a good system. But now the tactics have changed. OP only for one HE. (further change). The speed of completing a firing mission is much higher. All this can only be provided by self-propelled artillery, and this is a fact.
But in the mobile version, (I repeat again) the ideal system (until the factories stamp the self-propelled vehicles).

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The D-30 is in service only in the Airborne Forces, where there are no self-propelled howitzer units and is not expected in the near future.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

D-30 is in service only in the Airborne Forces,

Quote: chenia

And the main artillery for the Airborne Forces (and these troops, it is desirable to have, as a constant readiness) NONA, supplemented by BMD-4 with the module "Bakhcha".

Nona's range 3/4 D-30. enough for a defensive battle, survivability is much higher, the system is armored (supplemented with elements of built-in camouflage and self-entrenching). Introduce ASUNO, which means zonal occupation of the OP, the rate of fire is higher (the time for completing the fire mission is less), the change of the OP is much faster. Well, and so on. etc.

I repeat, for the troops of constant readiness. Moreover, the Airborne Forces are needed either before the war (as an option at the very beginning, when the uncertainty about pressing the "button" is still present), where the principle is - who is the clearing. that and a picnic .. Or at the end of the war, when the enemy's air defense is suppressed.
And so they must be prepared as "heavy formations" with all the attributes inherent in the MSD.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I do not share the confused concepts of the use of the Airborne Forces, and even more so, attempts to falsify by comparing the firing range of the NON and the D-30.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

I do not share a similar concept of the Airborne Forces

Yes. I wanted to know, maybe I missed something. And do not confuse the tactical landing (DShBr - which were pushed into the Airborne Forces under Russia), with the operational, and even strategic actions of the Airborne Forces.
Well, on paper it is. But how in real life? Well, with an equal opponent.

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

fake by comparison of firing range

Well, compared with ARS. But the essence has not changed, the survivability of the D-30 units is extremely low.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The concept of the use of airborne troops does not apply to the topic of this article in any way.

[chenia]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The concept of using airborne troops is not relevant to the topic of this article.

So that's great.
When mobilizing (anything can be) and deploying new divisions. The D-30 will become the main system there in the artillery division of SMEs (and even in divisional artillery regiments) unambiguously (until the self-propelled guns are stamped). And the modernization I proposed, at least somehow helps to increase the survivability of the regimental artillery.
That's all. what I wanted to say on the topic.

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

it is too early to abandon the D-30, while its replacement is not visible.

PAT-B
Carriage from D-30
Caliber 152mm
Weight 4350kg
Range 15200m

PAT-S
The series did not go, the chassis was used for SAO 2S31 Vienna.
There was also a PAT-K version - a wheeled version on the Ural 5323 chassis, but it also did not take off.
Developed back in the USSR ...

[stalki]

And if the connection is drowned out, how then to identify and what to enter? No, I understand everything: faster, easier, maybe more accurate, but no one canceled "every fireman". This I mean that the fighters themselves must be able and able to do everything, otherwise they will suddenly forget how to do it. What then?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I have a bad idea of ​​how it is possible to attach an electric drive to the D-30 howitzer, the task seems to me too difficult. But to change the chassis for the AGS-57 or "Vasilka", it will be easier to create an opportunity for immediate opening of fire with the addition of an electric drive.

[Dmt]

It is impossible to make a homing D-30 without rebuilding the entire guidance mechanism (whoever twisted the VN or GN handle at least once). This is not an MLRS, where an electric drive for the package is immediately provided. So the installation of ASUNO on samples that are in storage is simply impractical.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The modernization can be profound. You can radically alter the entire carriage, leaving only the barrel unchanged.

[Dmt]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The modernization can be profound. You can radically alter the entire carriage, leaving only the barrel unchanged.

And how, then, such a modernization will differ from the new design? It is not always financially profitable to simply take an old barrel and put it on a new system.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And such a task seems difficult to me, but once we have undertaken, it means that we already have some work.

[Dmt]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

And such a task seems difficult to me, but once we have undertaken, it means that we already have some work.

There is! Each of the gun commanders has an electronic device, so that commands, a sight and a protractor are displayed on it, and not the SOB yelling, breaking the voice, all the settings due to the fact that nothing is heard on the r-159 (discharged / broken).