"Russia will sell new batches of AL-31 only when purchasing Su-35 aircraft": German observer on the terms of the sale of engines to China

In January 2011, China discouraged the Western community by announcing the first flight of the J-20 stealth fighter. In October of the following year, the second stealth, the Shenyang FC-31, flew into the air. However, until now, Beijing has not been able to solve the fundamental problem for its new cars caused by the lack of its own power plant.

Is China able to create its own engine for its fighters?

- ask a question in the edition of Flug Revue (FRG).

As noted, almost all the J-20 built so far fly on Russian AL-31FN engines from NPO Saturn. The development of the WS-15 powerplant has been stalling for many years. Finally, as far as the German press knows, the Chinese developers cannot cope with the WS-15's severe thrust loss (around 25%) when it reaches its critical operating temperature. This significantly reduces the reliability of the engine.

According to the German observer, China fears that it will not be able to adequately solve the problem on its own:

Only limited help can be expected from the Russians. Russia will sell new batches of AL-31s, especially in a modernized version, only if China acquires additional [fighters] Su-35.

That is why Beijing was trying to "lay its paw" on the Ukrainian Motor Sich, which had lost its most important Russian sales market. But the United States thwarted a deal that would put the company under Beijing's control.

The United States, like Russia, fears that engine sales could boost China's powertrain efforts.

- writes the observer, explaining that it is this state of affairs that allows Moscow to put forward conditions for the sale of engines to the PRC.

Comments

[TerraSandera]

You have to deliver the finished product, right. Otherwise, it will soon be like space

[xorek]

Is China able to create its own engine for its fighters?

Not yet, they are taking a simpler path to scam technology and copy .. Well, they have such a national nature .. They are still traders in their essence, but very numerous.!
So far, there are at least no Nobel laureates among the Chinese. Although the nation is still quite closed and everything can be .. Well, Russia should not be afraid of the Chinese so far .. If we stop that.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: xorek

Not yet, they are taking a simpler path to dig technologies and copy ..

They go their separate ways.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: xorek

no, they take a simpler path to dig technology and copy

Well, yes, simple, you say too.
The easiest way is to buy technology.
And it is impossible to steal high technologies.
They can only be mastered.
It's not just someone else's trousers to rip up and redraw the patterns, this is equipment, materials, and what is actually called "technology" - a way of processing these materials. Here you need to have an appropriate level of industry.

[Wolf]

Technology is actually KNOWLEDGE, and if you know the equipment rivets. Technology is a scientific school with a tradition of long-term experience. On this until now the samurai "Katana" only the Japanese were able to do, if they did not score today as it is done. Kluchevi steps in production are forgiven for the owner of the technology (who knows), but for others it is incomprehensible.

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Wolf

Technology is really KNOWLEDGE,

No.
I know how the iPhone works, but I can't do it. Because I can't.
Technology is skill.

[Wolf]

[quoteTechnology is skill.] [/ quote]
To be able to know. The foundation is the foundation of knowledge.

[sharp-lad]

European swords of the same time were much superior in quality to Japanese handicrafts.

[Vasyl K.]

Damascus before and even better!

[unhappy]

Still?
I will reveal a terrible secret - modern metallurgists produce steel much superior to "damask, damascus and katana", instead of blacksmiths, rolling mills work better
PS: Europeans produced better quality weapons (better steel) than katanas.

[Couchexpert]

Not entirely true. Speaking specifically about the product, then for the creation of edged weapons, heat treatment will still be very important, which can be done after shaping the same billet from rolled products or forging. And if we bear in mind the initial raw materials, then yes, without a doubt, modern steel is much better, mainly due to a clear maintenance of the percentage composition and a decrease in the proportion of harmful impurities of sulfur and phosphorus. Therefore, the skill of blacksmiths before in many respects consisted precisely in the possibility from the one that was g ... to make, if not "candy", then at least something working. And if you know what the blacksmiths in Japan and Europe made of weapons, then the katana is really a good thing, corresponding to the time, local opportunities and conditions.

[unhappy]

And if we bear in mind the initial raw materials, then yes, without a doubt, modern steels are much better, mainly due to a clear maintenance of the percentage composition and a decrease in the proportion of harmful impurities of sulfur and phosphorus.

I spoke about the "recipe" of the alloy, about the alloying additions that were not available "for then", as well as heat treatment technologies and other features of the technical process (science and experience). Katana in my opinion is a kind of Damascus steel (I don't remember exactly what it is called - old, ancient, or something like that, in general, primitive).

[Couchexpert]

Apparently, we need to clarify a little. Bulat and Damascus are not steel grades with some specific content of chemical elements. This is exactly the technology of manufacturing steel products. Bulat - roughly speaking, such a mixture of steels with different carbon content, which are mixed in a molten state and distributed inside the casting, forming a structure in which areas with a high carbon content (which give hardness) and low-carbon areas (act as a binder, giving strength ). Damascus is the same, but the "mixing" of properties does not take place at full melting, but by forging welding of several strips / wires from steels of different composition with multiple forging (which is simpler and, naturally, appeared earlier, because heated iron began to be forged long before how it was possible to melt it).

You can make damask and damask products from a variety of steels. From the materials of the Middle Ages, this made sense, since it greatly increased the characteristics of the final product, compensating for the imperfection of the blast iron. It is also possible to work with modern materials using these technologies, but the relative increase in characteristics will not be so significant (although it will naturally surpass both medieval products and slightly modern homogeneous steels), and the cost price will increase many times over (but what it looks like!). The content of alloying elements applied to weapons and tools also does not change their properties as significantly as the structure and carbon content. If earlier it was simply not possible to control the chemical composition (a marriage of 15-20% did not bother anyone, but the rest after quenching and tempering turned out to be +/- the same), now it is easier to set properties already during steel melting, excluding the subsequent heat treatment from the technological chains (this greatly reduces the cost).

The only problem is that the product must combine the opposite qualities: to be solid and durable at the same time. It is possible to make a very hard blade from modern steel, but it will break / crumble upon impact, and if an impact-resistant blade is made of modern steel, it is unlikely that it will keep sharpening for a long time due to its low hardness. You can choose steel with a more or less desired ratio of these properties (as the manufacturers of folding knives do, for example, in this size it is acceptable). And you can also take a strip from some U10A (1% carbon, as a cutting edge) and weld it to a strip of 45 steel (0,45% carbon, future butt), harden it correctly ... and get the desired properties in the desired places. If you do the same katana in this way, then forging and folding the workpiece several times does not make much sense (since initially the metal is of high quality and it is not required to squeeze out impurities), but it is still necessary to ensure the hardness on the edge and the strength of the butt, and apart from the blacksmith it is nobody will.

A blacksmith in the Middle Ages is a full-cycle metallurgical plant, an engineering plant and a materials science laboratory in one person, where you bring money and receive a product. And he, in turn, prepares ore and fuel for the forge, forging tools, abrasive materials, creates metals from ore, combines them into a workpiece with the desired properties, gives it the desired shape, performs plumbing and assembly, decoration (at the request of the customer) ... This is not a man who knocks with a hammer (he is just a hammer), he is a specialist in the field of metalworking with extensive experience.

And the rolling mill rolls only ingots. And the chemical composition has nothing to do with it. It is critical for a turbine blade, a transformer armature, or for imparting some other special properties to steel. Since then, there has not been much progress in heat treatment as such (except that a complete understanding of such processes has been added, previously they acted empirically), more precisely, progress is in the plane of volumes, not quality. The mechanical characteristics are still dominated by grains, carbides, the ratio of "iron-carbon" and that's all.

[unhappy]

You know better, I just read that when the rolling mill gives a higher quality steel than when forging (the structure is more homogeneous, less microdefects, etc.). Also, with the advent of massive armies, "wunderwaflies" have lost the point of manually weld-on strips for a batch of a million swords? Lighter from rolled steel, as it was done before the First World War. Needless to say, the Romans, having mediocre gladiuses, defeated Carthage with the best fighters and quality weapons.

[Maikcg]

Any dunce could make a katana (and now they do (not balances :), Russian blacksmiths as well), this is an ordinary sword, all Japanese perverts when forging only because of the lack of decent raw materials on the islands .. Bulat will be steeper. Or Damascus.

[Thrombus]

The main part of the turbine, which takes over the entire thermal shock, is its blade; the operation of the entire engine depends on its heat resistance. How and from what materials are created that are resistant to temperatures of a thousand degrees Celsius? In Russia, the All-Russian Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM) has been developing heat-resistant parts for jet engines for many years. The maximum that they can do is to carry out spectral analysis and find out the chemical. composition, and why such? Manufacturing technology will remain a mystery, molding, or casting or metalworking from a piece? What are the modes of heat treatment and the method of applying a protective coating? Why exactly such a form (there, aviation dynamics must be known separately at our level), In short, they have everything without an answer, and this is just a scapula, and there it is not alone)))))))

[Alf]

Quote: xorek

Well, Russia should not be afraid of the Chinese so far .. If we stop that.

Did you put on the sticker on the car "Can we repeat it"?

[Civil]

Thanks to the USSR, I left it with good developments and a material base ...

[Wolf]

The USSR also put scientists in basic science, and they made technologies. Ludi kotori know this technology. Thanks to the designers (scientists) they did it. Eti ludi were the MOST GOOD USSR !!! For this reason Stalin made a closure of the city that would save the lives of these people !!! And today it is so SCIENTIST DESIGNER IS THE TOP OF PRODUCTION AND THE MOST GOOD PEOPLE! IT'S HEROES ONLY THEIR HEROISES DO NOT THAT WOULD Fight WITH A RIFLE AND THAT WOULD WORK HEAD FOR YOUR PEOPLE!

[Wolf]

The vitality of one people in direct connection with the science and teachings of the Ludmi, the army is just protecting them and the state.

[Zaurbek]

And here Al31.? It was already sold ... in marketable quantity, you can also sell Al41, In the place of comrades from China, I would first transfer new-built heavy fighters (and clones Su27 and J-20 and J-10) to Al41, and then already made his versions of the turbojet engine. The criteria for which to strive will be clear and you can always buy in addition if something does not go well. And it is beneficial for the Russian Federation to have a mass production of AL-41

[Alexander 3]

Our factories must be loaded with orders, constantly improving their products.

[Per se.]

Quote: Alexander 3

Our factories must be loaded with orders

If we are talking about the military-industrial complex, then these orders, first of all, should be for our army and navy. The AL-31 will be sold separately, or in a deal with the Su-35, the Chinese will have the engine. For our "managers" this is just a matter of a large transaction amount.
For your information, in 1946 Rolls-Royce put up its Derwent V and Nene I / II engines for sale, and on June 17, 1946, the USSR Council of Ministers decided to buy these engines in Great Britain. Then it was decided to buy these engines in the UK or another country at any cost and then copy them. So, to a large extent, we have the RD-45, and from it the VK-1 and VK-1F, for the MiG-15 and MiG-17.
The Chinese will not always buy our engines in order to "load with orders" our factories, this must be understood, as well as the fact that today's muddy friends, tomorrow may become competitors at best, with clones of our engines, and at worst, a potential enemy, for territories rich in raw materials.

[Zaurbek]

Al31 has no connection with the Su35S ..... and China has exhausted (like us) the ability to copy modern turbojet engines. If it were that simple, China would have no problem with Civilian turbojet engines.

[Per se.]

Quote: Zaurbek

If it was that easy

This is not easy, and I did not claim that the AL-31 is related to the Su-35, but the title of the article “Russia will sell new batches of AL-31 only when purchasing Su-35 aircraft". In any case, it is better for China to have the AL-31 and AL-41 samples than not to have them.

[Zaurbek]

China has Al31 for J-10 J-11, J-20 .... and, apparently, Al31 supplies are serial.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Per se.

The AL-31 will be sold separately, or in a deal with the Su-35, the Chinese will have the engine.

They already have it in sufficient quantities. But their "copier" is not ready for it yet.
Apparently the copier does not have enough resolution

[Sayan]

The Germans reasonably reason about this

[Popandos]

Russia will sell new batches of AL-31s, especially in a modernized version, only if China acquires additional [fighters] Su-35.

If so, then this is a very correct decision. And from an economic point of view, and good for future negotiations.

[Ka-52]

with a strong loss of thrust WS-15 (about 25%)

up to 16%

when it reaches a critical operating temperature.

when t reaches 2000K, problems begin with the combustion of fuel in the gas turbine engine. This requires not only the correct calculation of the stoichiometric HM, effective mixing of homogeneous mixtures, stabilization of combustion and intensification of heat transfer in the channels, but also the correct organization of isothermal expansion in the turbine.

[Boratsagdiev]

They also copy out of habit, but in this case this trick does not work.
And they have a very backward "materials science", the nomenclature is not enough, there is nothing to build from and not where "important components" are.

[Azimuth]

Quote: Ka-52

with a strong loss of thrust WS-15 (about 25%)

up to 16%

when it reaches a critical operating temperature.

when t reaches 2000K, problems begin with the combustion of fuel in the gas turbine engine. This requires not only the correct calculation of the stoichiometric HM, effective mixing of homogeneous mixtures, stabilization of combustion and intensification of heat transfer in the channels, but also the correct organization of isothermal expansion in the turbine.

I think in theory the Chinese know this as well as you and me, but in practice the result is zero. The accident rate of fighters on their own engines is very high. Although back in 2019, they knocked themselves on the chest with the heel and talked about abandoning our engines and completely switching their J-11 and J-10 to their own engines. They promised mountains of gold to the same Pakistan, which needs a heavier machine than the licensed JF-17, demonstrated the J-10 with a variable thrust vector, but so far the show has not gone further.

[Castro Ruiz]

Videiko, Allahu akbar. :)

[TermNachTer]

It was clear from the very beginning))) it is not clear only - why the Chinese "puffed out their cheeks and made a mysterious face"?))))

[Alf]

Quote: TermNachTER

why did the Chinese "puff out their cheeks and make a mysterious face"?))))

Sun Tzu - Deceive the enemy. If you are weak, show your strength.

[TermNachTer]

A bit not the case))) when the enemy (ally) knows that you are just puffing out your cheeks and nothing more - this is not Feng Shui)))

[Alf]

Quote: TermNachTER

A bit not the case))) when the enemy (ally) knows that you are just puffing out your cheeks and nothing more - this is not Feng Shui)))

Maybe so. Mentality, sir ...

[Jacket in stock]

Russia will sell new batches of AL-31 only when purchasing Su-35 aircraft ": German observer

And where did the German publisher get this information?
Was it officially announced somewhere?
Or was he just dreaming?

[Romanenko]

Here friendship is friendship, but technology, excuse me ...
If you want an aircraft engine - create, just copy, as before, will not work.
That is why it and aviation, very few have technologies for the production of jet engines and gas generators. And it is not a fact that, having acquired Motor Sich, the Chinese could establish a serial production. Something from the groundwork would of course be embodied in metal, of course.
Otherwise, a long journey of trial and error, victories and losses is required.
This is how big aviation is.

[AC130 Gunship]

Now friend Xi will hint that friendship has to be paid. And a friend will sell the engines separately

[Romanenko]

Black forecast, but I hope this will not happen.
Friendship is friendship, and tobacco apart and C's friend also uses it well and understands

[Alexander Kulikov]

NPO Saturn AL-31 is not produced

[eburg1234]

The Chinese need Motor Sich, because there they make engines for their combat training L-15, as well as for Mi-8/17 helicopters. Of course, they would like to get all these technologies.
But I doubt that this will help them with an analogue of modern modifications of the AL-31.

[Pankrat25]

Here are the debaters, too lazy to look at the source? For those who are lazy, read:

AL-31F - basic. Installed on Su-27, Su-27UB, Su-30, Su-34, Su-35. Initially, the assigned resource of the serial AL-31F was only 100 hours, when the Air Force required 300 hours, but then over time it was brought to 1500 hours.

AL-31K is an engine for the Su-33 carrier-based aircraft. Afterburner thrust increased to 13300 kgf. Differs in additional anti-corrosion protection.

AL-31FM1 - ​​modernized. Afterburner thrust increased to 13500 kgf. With a four-stage low-pressure compressor KND-924-4 with a diameter increased from 905 to 924 mm, providing a 6% higher air flow rate, as well as a more advanced digital automatic control system (compression ratio 3,6). The temperature of the gases in front of the turbine of this engine is increased by 25 ° C. The engine is two-circuit, the first circuit passes through the "jacket" for cooling, then it is mixed downstream of the turbine with a hot second two-shaft circuit. Serially produced since 2006 for fighters of the Su-27 family, installed without modifications in any fighters, including early years of production, installed on 1 Su-27SM / SM2 regiment and are already installed on produced Su-34s.

AL-31FM2 - forced up to 14000 kgf. It features a three-stage low pressure compressor. The assigned resource of the upgraded engine exceeds 3 hours. It does not require modification of the aircraft board when installed on aircraft such as Su-000, Su-27, Su-30, in contrast to engines of other series.

AL-31FM3 - forced. 3rd stage of modernization of AL-31F MMPP Salyut, additionally a new three-stage LPC is installed with wide-chord blades of spatial profiling and an increased degree of pressure increase up to 4.2 (KND-924-3), which makes it possible to increase thrust up to 15 300 kgf (obtained from static tests) ... The blades and disk of a 3-stage LPC are a single whole (blisk), instead of 9 stages of HPC it is planned to reduce the number to 6.

AL-31FP (AL-31FU) - with a rotary nozzle. Developed in 1988-1994. Weight increased by 110 kg, length - by 0,4 m. Installed on Su-33KUB, Su-37. The main difference from the base AL-31F engine is the controlled thrust vector, which significantly increases the maneuverable characteristics of the aircraft. The vector can be changed by an angle of up to ± 16 ° in the vertical plane and up to ± 15 in any direction. "FP" means afterburner rotary. The engine was developed at NPO Saturn and is manufactured at UMPO. AL-31FP engines are installed on 4 ++ generation fighters - Su-35.

R-32 - the forced AL-31F engine for the record-breaking P-42 aircraft, created on the basis of the Su-27. Engine afterburner thrust was increased to 13600 kgf.

AL-31FN - with the bottom location of the drive box. Developed by order of China.