Military Review

26 August 1382 Tokhtamysh captured and burned Moscow

59
26 August 1382 Tokhtamysh captured and burned Moscow

26 August 1382. Khan Tokhtamysh’s troops burned down Moscow. After that, the Tatar troops captured Vladimir, Pereyaslavl, Yuriev, Zvenigorod, Mozhaisk and other Russian cities, laying tribute to them. The campaign of 1382 of the year was aimed at the restoration of the power of the Golden Horde “tsar” over Vladimir-Moscow Rus, which, after the Battle of Kulikovo of 1380, gained independence.

Tokhtamysh

Tokhtamysh was one of the descendants of the Juchi clan, the eldest son of Genghis Khan. His father was Tuy-Khoji oglan, the ruler of Mangyshlak (a peninsula on the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea), an influential prince under Khan Urus. After the father of Tokhtamysh was executed by order of the khan for disobedience, the young prince, saving his life, fled to the Samarkand ruler Timur (Tamerlan) in 1376. A year later, he, with the support of the troops of the ruler of Maverannahr (historical region in Central Asia, the land between the rivers Amu Darya and Syr Darya), began to conquer the Golden Horde.

His position was facilitated by the fact that the Golden Horde was weakened during the period of distemper. Tokhtamysh suffered several defeats from the troops of Urus, but Timur continued to support him, singling out new troops. After the death of Urus, Tokhtamysh was able to defeat Timur-Melik and became the ruler of the White Horde (eastern part of the Juchi ulus) with the center in Sygnak. In 1378, Tokhtamysh began a war with Mamai, who controlled the western part of the Golden Horde. The Kulikov battle, where Mamai lost his main forces, finally outweighed the balance in favor of Tokhtamysh. Mamai was able to gather another army, but when meeting with the enemy forces on the river. Kalka his Murza went over to the side of Tokhtamysh, who was “of royal blood”. Mamai fled with treasure to the Crimea, where he was killed by former Allies - the Italians. The prince seized the land of Mamaia up to Azov, including the capital of the Golden Horde, Sarai-Berke, and occupied the royal throne. It was Tohtamysh's finest hour, he united under his rule the Juchi Ulus.

Tokhtamysh invasion of Russia

Having headed the Golden Horde, Tokhtamysh naturally wanted to restore power over Northeast Rus. Khan sent ambassadors to the Moscow Grand Prince Dmitry Ivanovich and other Russian princes with the news of his victory over the enemy of Russia Mamai, as well as his reign in the Golden Horde. Moscow was informed that Tsar Tokhtamysh was grateful to Prince Dmitry for defeating Mamaia on the Kulikovo Field, since the Russian soldiers had defeated not the Khan of the Golden Horde, but Temnik, the usurper of the Khan's power. Now, when the legitimate king came to power in the Golden Horde, from the Chingizids family, Russia must pay tribute in the old days, for which Tokhtamysh promised Dmitry Ivanovich his mercy and protection from enemies (Lithuania). The Grand Duke greeted the Tatar ambassadors affably, bestowed upon them, sent gifts to Khan, but sovereign Dmitri deviated from the tribute ("exit") and humility.

In the summer of 1381, another Tatar embassy led by Ak-Khozu was sent to Russia. However, the ambassadors arrived only to Nizhny Novgorod, apparently, there the Tatars received news that Dmitry was not in the mood to pay tribute and returned to the Horde. Then Tokhtamysh decided to use military force. His decision was approved and the denunciation received from the Suzdal princes Vasily and Semen. Dmitry invited Metropolitan Cyprian of Kiev to Moscow. The Suzdal princes presented this step as a conspiracy of Moscow with Lithuania, the ally of its enemy - Mamaia.

Tokhtamysh raised an army, and in the summer of 1382, he occupied the lands of Volga Bulgaria. Russian merchants, in order to prevent information leaks, were killed or arrested, their vessels and goods confiscated. Tokhtamysh crossed the Volga and, taking the Suzdal princes as guides, set off on a march with “exile,” that is, without carts. Tatar army bypassed the Ryazan land from the south-east and went to Oka. Some researchers believe that Prince Oleg Ryazansky pointed out fords to Okhtamysh through Oka.

The news of the approach of the enemy troops, it was received "from some of the well-wishing, living within the Tatar", caught the Moscow government by surprise. Dmitri Ivanovich led the forces in possession (and his troops suffered huge losses on the Kulikovo field) towards the Horde. However, without receiving support from other princes, seeing the weakness of the existing forces and the lack of unity, he went north to Kostroma in order to assemble a stronger army. His cousin Prince Serpukhov and Borovsky Vladimir Andreevich went to Volok Lamsky. Moscow and his family, the Grand Duke entrusted Metropolitan Cyprian. Apparently, Dmitry Donskoy was convinced that the new stone walls of the city built in 1367 were unapproachable. In addition, the fortifications were equipped with long-range crossbows and "mattresses" (urban artillery). Light Horde cavalry was not able to take such a first-class fortress. The city possessed sufficient food supplies to withstand a possible siege.

The problem was different, the Grand Duke overestimated the managerial qualities of Cyprian, did not leave an experienced governor in the city. There were not enough defenders and the strength of the military spirit - the few professional squad left with the prince, the warriors who had won the Kulikovo field were dispersed home. Few boyars with servants and Moscow artisans remained in the city. This mass was not inclined to military discipline, order and long military operations. A penchant for self-will, arrogance, irresponsibility dominated their minds.

Fall of Moscow

Cyprian did not organize the defense and began to prepare for departure. Riots began in the city, some wanted to close the gates and keep the defense, others immediately leave the city, and skirmishes began between them. At the meeting, it was decided not to let anyone out of the city. The “Defenders” defeated the boyar cellars with wine and honey, the general drunkenness and robbery began. The townspeople could not even fulfill the decision of the veche - Metropolitan Cyprian and the Grand Duchess were released from Moscow, however, they looted their luggage beforehand. Princess Evdokia and her family went to visit Kostroma with her husband, and Vladyka Cyprian to Tver.

The temporary defense of the city was attempted by the Lithuanian prince, the grandson of Olgerd Ostei, who was in the Russian service. Researchers do not know whose son was Ostey. Perhaps Ostey was the son of one of the two Olgerdovich brothers, the sons of the famous Olgerd, the son of Gedimin - Andrei and Dmitry, the heroes of the battle on the Kulikovo Field. He was able to pacify the rioters, encourage the doubters, appointed commanders to the militia detachments. Under his leadership, the Muscovites were able to burn out the suburbs and prepare the walls for defense, prepared stones, tar, tar. Each defender was assigned his place on the wall.

The army of Tokhtamysh, crossing the Oka River, captured Serpukhov and headed for Moscow, "the townships and villages burn and fight, and the Christian race slanted and killed, and other people were completely full." 23 August advanced forces of Tokhtamysh's troops approached Moscow. The city was not blocked, the Tatar hundreds only circled around the city, robbing villages. Several Tatars approached the walls and they asked the defenders if Prince Dmitry Ivanovich was in the city. Having received a negative answer, the Tatars began to carry out reconnaissance. Muscovites insulted and mocked them.

On the morning of August 24, the main forces of Tokhtamysh went out to the walls. After the shootout, the Tatars went to storm the city, hoping to take the city in stride, taking advantage of the absence of the Grand Duke and his forces. However, the townspeople repulsed all attacks with great damage to the attackers. Horde was fired from "mattresses", crossbows, poured boiling water and resin. The walls, with a sufficient number of defenders and protective equipment, were impregnable. 25 August the enemy went to the second assault, but he was repelled.

The army of Tokhtamysh suffered significant losses and could not waste time on the siege, at this moment princes Dmitry and Vladimir Serpukhovsky gathered troops, peasants gathered in troops and attacked the enemy, the situation changed every day not in favor of the Tatar troops. Tokhtamysh decided to use a military trick. 26 August through the Suzdal princes, they were siblings to the wife of the Moscow Grand Duke, Grand Duchess Evdokia, he offered the townspeople an honorable peace, on condition that they let the Tatar embassy into Moscow. Believing the enemy and the traitors was very stupid, but the drunken crowd (the townspeople had been drunk for several days) accepted the condition of Tokhtamysh. Princes Basil Kirdyapa and Simon swore an oath on the cross.

The Tatar embassy came to meet the Prince of Osteys, the clergy, noble and simple people. Gate protection is not provided. The Tatar embassy penetrated into the city, and the rest of the enemy army rushed after it, the slaughter began. The first was slaughtered prince Ostey. Priests and other people began to cut him down. The townspeople were taken by surprise and could not organize resistance, there was a massacre and plunder throughout the city. Tatars captured the grand duke's treasury, a huge number of values, the city burned out. The entire population was slaughtered, burned, or gone into full. Upon further calculation, it turned out that only the dead citizens - about 24 thousand people. When the Grand Duke of Moscow and Vladimir Dmitri Ivanovich returned to Moscow, he saw only "smoke, ashes, bloody land, corpses and empty charred churches."

To capture more mining and people Tokhtamysh scattered his troops on the Russian land. Tatar troops ravaged Vladimir, Zvenigorod, Mozhaisk, Yuriev and Pereyaslavl. He forbade to touch the land of Tver, so there flowed a stream of refugees. A part of Tokhtamysh's army approached Voloka Lamsky, where the hero of the Kulikovo battle, Vladimir Andreevich Khrabry, was located. The Russian army under his command attacked and utterly smashed the enemy forces, many of the Tatars were captured. It was enough that Tokhtamysh hastily assembled troops and left the borders of the Russian land. On the way back, the army of Tokhtamysh destroyed Kolomna and the Ryazan land. Tohtamysh returned to the Horde with huge booty and full, having strengthened his power even more.

The Grand Duke of Moscow, Dmitry Ivanovich, began to restore the ruined settlements. In the autumn, the Tatar embassy arrived in Moscow with a proposal for peace. In the spring of 1383, Tsar Dmitry sent his eldest son Vasily to the Horde as a hostage. Tokhtamysh gave a label to the Great Reign of Dmitri Ivanovich, although Mikhail Tverskoy asked himself to do it. Moscow-Vladimir Russia was again forced to pay tribute to the Golden Horde kings and perform military service (send Russian squads to the aid of the Horde). The victory over Moscow did not bring good luck to Tokhtamysh - he began to fight with his patron Timur and was defeated in it.
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  1. redcod
    redcod 25 August 2012 12: 52
    +1
    The Genoese have long licked their lips over the control of the Silk Road, which the Golden Horde had at that time. To fight for trade routes, Mamaia was nominated from the temniks, who was never a khan, since only the descendants of Genghis Khan could become khans. By the way, Lame Timur was only a beck. Nevertheless, being a good enough military commander, Mamai was able to lead the army, which was supposed to crush the Golden Horde. The reason for the Battle of Kulikovo, in my opinion, was that Prince Dmitry did not recognize Mamai’s claim to the throne of the Golden Horde and refused to obey him. In addition, following an allied duty, Dmitry defeated the motley army of Mamai, which consisted not only of cavalry, as they say in textbooks, but also of Genoese spearmen and other mercenaries gathered throughout Europe who were ready to fight for the gold of Italian merchants.
    After the victory in the Battle of Kulikovo, Dmitry felt strong and refused to pay tribute, but what happened in the article didn’t increase.
  2. ShturmKGB
    ShturmKGB 25 August 2012 13: 19
    +1
    Always very interesting essays on the history of this site give diversity and value. Thanks!
  3. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 13: 50
    0
    Khan Urus - not too strange name for a khan?
    1. marshes
      marshes 25 August 2012 14: 05
      +2
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      Is Khan Urus a not too strange name for a khan?

      Urus (? - 1377) - the khan of the Syr Darya ulus from the Tukatimurid dynasty, managed to unite almost the entire Blue Horde under his authority, was the khan of the Golden Horde from 1372-1375, 1375-1377. From the descendants of Urus Khan, the khans of the Kazakh Khanate come.
      The pedigree of Urus-khan, according to "Tavarih-i Guzida-yi Nusrat Nam," appears as follows: Genghis Khan - Jochi - Tuka-Timur - Uz-Timur - Khoja - Badik - Urus-khan. According to this version, Urus inherited the throne of the White Horde after the death of Khan Tugly-Timur. According to Iskandar Anonymous, the genealogy of Urus Khan is described as follows: Genghis Khan - Jochi - Orda-Ichen - Kuli - Tumakan - Nokai - Sasy-Buka - Erzen - Chimtai - Urus Khan. According to this version, Urus inherited the throne of the White Horde after the death of his father, Chimtai.
      Relying on the nobility, made a campaign in 1372 in the Golden Horde, became the sovereign ruler of the Golden Horde. In the mid 1370s. captured Hadji Tarkhan (modern Astrakhan).
      Urus-khan loses the khan's title in Sarai in 1374, when he was in the east, Circassian becomes khan. Urus-khan returns to Sarai, there already rule the protege of Mamai Bulak khan. In June 1375 he became again Khan of the Golden Horde. Bulak Khan managed to recapture Sarai from Urus Khan and drive him to Sygnak.
      Soon, the emir Tamerlan from Samarkand entered the fight against Urus Khan, but the armed conflict between them did not take place due to the unexpected death of Urus Khan. According to (Genghis-name), he was killed by the son of Tokhtamysh Jalal Ad-Din during a minor skirmish.
      Many Russian and Kazakhstani historians call Urus Khan and Alash Khan one person. Kazakh khans traditionally express their descent from the descendants of Urus Khan.
      1. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 14: 39
        -4
        Urus = Russian? I don’t think so. that so much has changed in the language ..
        Literally Russian Khan - and I do not need to retell my tales, from whom who counts himself there ...
        This is what surprises me ...
        1. marshes
          marshes 25 August 2012 14: 56
          0
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          Urus = Russian? I don’t think so. that so much has changed in the language.

          Then there would be Orys Khan, it is customary for Kazakhs and Mongols to call children the names of enemies or friends of events. Here is an example: Temujin was born in the tract Delyun-Boldok [4] on the banks of the Onon River in the Esugei-bagatura family of the Bordzhigin family and his wife Oelun from Olkhonut tribe, which Yesugei repulsed from the Merkit Eke-Chileda. The boy was named after the captured Tatar leader Temujin-Uge, whom Yesugei defeated on the eve of the birth of his son.
          1. marshes
            marshes 25 August 2012 15: 24
            +5
            Gubaidulla Genghis Khan (Sultan Haji Gubaidulla Dzhanger-oglu Prince Genghis Khan) (May 6, 1840, Khan Headquarters, Bukeevskaya Horde - February 28, 1909, Yalta) - military leader of the Russian army, son of the khan of the Bukeev horde Zhangir, grandson of Bukei-khan, ching. Ethnic Kazakh. Member of the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-1878. General of the cavalry.
            “General-Prince Genghis Khan,” as they called him in the Russian imperial encirclement, was the head of the telegraphs of the Army, and served as head of the telegraph department of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Then he headed the department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on the issues of the Kazakh (then Kyrgyz) people and was the emperor’s personal adviser on Asian issues [1] [2]. Gubaidulla Zhangirov was directly involved in drafting a regulation on elections to the first State Duma of Russia. According to this provision, the Kazakhs for the first time received the right to elect representatives of their people into it.
            In the last year of his life, his wife was a hereditary noblewoman, actress Theodosia Velinskaya (1858–1931) (two months after her husband’s death she received the name Genghis Khan), the famous first performer of the Snegurochka party in the opera Snegurochka by N. A. Rimsky-Korsakova.
            In the Moscow Kremlin, a surname is carved on the white marble wall in the St. George Hall.
            He was buried in the Muslim cemetery "Derikoy" near Yalta.
            1. The centurion
              The centurion 25 August 2012 17: 13
              +5
              Nice to read a sane and qualified comment. This contrasts so much with the emptiness, bedlam and cockroaches in the heads of most commentators.
          2. marshes
            marshes 25 August 2012 17: 54
            0
            Quote: marshes
            , among Kazakhs and Mongols it is customary to call children the names of enemies or friends of events

            Here I have a middle name Aleksandrovich-Grandfather called his father in the name of a front-line friend, and the funny thing is there are many Kazakhs called Slavic names.
            1. marshes
              marshes 25 August 2012 18: 03
              +1
              Kornilov Lavr Georgievich - by mother from the Argyn clan.
              . Moreover, a mixed breed: father - Russian, mother - Kazakh Kornilov was born on August 30, 1870 in the village of Karkaraly. There is documentary evidence that his grandfather Nikolai Kornilov, one of the first settlers, was a interpreter at the sultan of the Karkaraly district. And then the sultan was Kunanbay Uskenbay - the father of the future great enlightener and poet Abai.
              1. marshes
                marshes 25 August 2012 18: 12
                +1
                Chokan (Shokan) Chingisovich Valikhanov (Kazakh. Shoқan Shyңғysұly Uәlihan, real name - Muhammed-Hanafia (Kazakh. Mukhammed фanafiya); November 1835, wintering horde Kuntimes, Aman-Karagay region, April 10, Siberia, April 1865, Siberia natural boundary Kochen-Togan, Semirechye) - a Kazakh scientist, as well as a historian, ethnographer, folklorist, traveler and enlightener, officer of the General Staff of the Russian Army, intelligence officer [1] [2]. Valikhanov's studies were published in the works of the Russian Geographical Society, and also appeared in Berlin.
                He is Genghiside.
                1. Brother Sarych
                  Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 18: 37
                  -1
                  Too lazy to swear and cons, now you won’t put as much as you want! Consider that I put ten minuses in each post ...
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 25 August 2012 18: 46
                    +1
                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    Too lazy to swear and cons, now you won’t put as much as you want! Consider that I put ten minuses in each post ...

                    Rakhimov Sabir Umarovich (in historiography also referred to as Rakhimov Sabir Umar-ogly [1]; Uzbek. Rakhimov Sobir Umarovich, Kazakh. Rakhimov Sabyr Omarұly; January 12 (25), 1902 - March 26, 1945) - commander of the 37th Guards Rechitsa twice Krasnozamennaya Orders of Suvorov 2nd degree Kutuzov 1st degree Bohdan Khmelnitsky 2nd degree infantry division of the 65th Army of the 2nd Belorussian Front, Guard Major General, Hero of the Soviet Union.
                    Born on January 25 (according to other sources, January 1), 1902 in Tashkent [2], according to another version - in the village of Kokibeli, Kazygurt district, South Kazakhstan region. According to his wife, Kuralay Natullaeva (Sabirova), Sabir Rakhimov, being an ethnic Kazakh, was mistakenly recorded as an Uzbek, and therefore was considered the first Uzbek general for a long time [3].
                    On January 6, 2011 in Tashkent on the territory of the Sabir-Rakhimov district (recently renamed the Olmazar district) a monument was dismantled to the hero of the Great Patriotic War, Major General Sabir Rakhimov.
                    A four-meter monument to the famous military leader, standing on a two-meter pedestal, with a rattle and clanking, six bulldozers were demolished. Fragments of concrete, granite and earth were loaded onto KamAZ trucks and immediately exported. All this happened under the watchful eye of numerous police officers and the khokimiyat (city administration).
                    The fact that the fate of the monument was predetermined became clear at the end of 2010, when a metro station was suddenly renamed in Tashkent, bearing the name of the only Uzbek general of the Second World War, and then the capital’s district named after him. It became known that in the Ferghana region, the region of the same name was also renamed. There were no explanations from the Uzbek authorities themselves as usual.
                    1. Brother Sarych
                      Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 20: 33
                      0
                      Type of demolished monument angry Uzbeks? And sent to the trash?
                      Not quite so - it stands elsewhere, in a clean well-kept park, not very far from the city center ...
                      1. marshes
                        marshes 25 August 2012 20: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Brother Sarich

                        Type of demolished monument angry Uzbeks? And sent to the trash?

                        The Uzbek drone violated the airspace of Kazakhstan, confirms the headquarters of the border troops of the National Security Committee.
                        "Currently, appropriate negotiations are underway between the relevant services of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan," said Kazakh Foreign Ministry spokesman Altai Abibullaev.
                        According to him, official information on this incident was sent to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Uzbekistan.
                        The Kazakh television channel KTK reported on Monday that the drone had crossed the state border and headed deeper into Kazakhstan.
                        According to the channel, the aircraft was in the Kazakh airspace for about fifteen minutes. It remained unnoticed for air defense due to too low flight altitude. He flew near two border outposts, turned around, then headed back towards the border and disappeared into the territory of a neighboring state.
                        The authorities of Uzbekistan have not yet commented on this situation.
                      2. Brother Sarych
                        Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 22: 41
                        0
                        If I’m not mistaken, is this news almost last year? And long disproved?
                        Just recently, in your sub-tables, as the future news, they reported on Clintonih’s last year’s visit - at least they would use a tyrnet, or rather, more accurately, sometimes they glanced at the dates ...
          3. Horde
            Horde 25 August 2012 19: 09
            +2
            Then there would be Orys Khan, it is customary for Kazakhs and Mongols to call children the names of enemies or friends of events


            and the fact that there were no Kazakhs in those days, then how do you know what was accepted from the ancestors of the Kazakhs at that time?
            1. marshes
              marshes 25 August 2012 19: 20
              +1
              Quote: Horde
              and the fact that there were no Kazakhs in those days, then how do you know what was accepted from the ancestors of the Kazakhs at that time?

              Here’s the question? Now I’m thinking of where the relatives of the names of November, Komsomol or ...
              The boy was named "The Flood" in memory of the tragedy in Kyzylagash
              The boy, born on the night when a dam broke in the village of Kyzylagash, is celebrating his second birthday. The villagers persuaded their parents to give him an unusual name - in memory of the flood, the newspaper Megapolis writes.

              The child appeared in the Kirbasov family. The baby was given the name Taskyn. In Kazakh, this means flooding. Parents hope that the son, when he grows up, will not be offended by such a name. According to them, they wanted to name him differently, but the villagers insisted on giving him the name Taskyn. They are sure that, becoming an adult, their son will talk about what year he was destined to be born.

              Recall that the tragedy occurred on the night of March 11-12, 2010. As a result of the breakthrough of the dam, 45 people were killed.
            2. romb
              romb 25 August 2012 19: 33
              +1
              A significant part of the tribes participating in the ethnogenesis of the Kazakh people were previously part of the Golden Horde. Consequently, the usual continuity was not violated.
        2. romb
          romb 25 August 2012 18: 42
          0
          The word Urys is not necessarily a synonym - Russian.
          This word in the Turkic languages ​​most often means - battle, battle, or ... swearing.
          The main verb is: ur (bey), from which comes such a medieval military term as "uranium" - a cry in battle.
          1. marshes
            marshes 25 August 2012 18: 56
            0
            Quote: romb
            The main verb is: ur (bey), from which comes such a medieval military term as "uranium" - a cry in battle.

            Uranus (patrimonial (battle) cry) - "Baktiyar". Tamga (generic symbol) - "Domalak". Etymology, the word "Domalak" is a totem of the Sun (Кн бнісі). Domalak ana-kүn domalaқ; Nurilla-kүn nurly; Sary baibishekүn sary; Zharykshak-kүn zharyқ; -Nұr ұl or Nurin-kүnnen taraғan.
            Shymyr is a Kazakh clan that is part of the Senior Zhuz, one of the four clans of the Dulat tribe. The origin of the ethnonym Shymyr is associated with the name of the ancestor, who lived in about 12 centuries. Legends and traditions about Shymyr Ata are preserved among the people. Shymyr Ata lived in the area of ​​the current city of Tashkent. The Shymyr Ata mausoleum complex is located in Tashkent, the Olmazor district (formerly Sabir-Rakhimovsky), Farabi street, the total area of ​​the complex is 4 hectares. Inside the mosque and the Shymyr Ata mausoleum.
        3. de_monSher
          de_monSher 25 August 2012 22: 34
          0
          Most likely it comes from the word - Ur-namys = the first U, with an element, as in the word Uzbekistan = ... which in everyday speech turned into Urus ... Literally means "pride" ...

          Like that...
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 25 August 2012 14: 31
      +1
      Our he, ours, do not hesitate.
    3. Nubia2
      Nubia2 25 August 2012 18: 11
      0
      Not at all strange.
  4. Flooding
    Flooding 25 August 2012 14: 31
    0
    I look forward to hearing the heavy artillery in the form of adherents of a new chronology.
    After all, in fact, everything was different ...
    1. Horde
      Horde 25 August 2012 18: 58
      +2
      Hello to Vladimir!

      Yes, the absolute ossified, retrograde point of view is not our story, especially cool "ruler of Mangyshlak".
      Let me remind you that Mangyshlak is a waterless desert to live there, it was impossible at that time, only to roam. Although archaeologists found some ruins, but to say that there could be some kind of serious civilization on Mangyshlak is a complete nonsense. It is called the point of view of the cabinet scientist. "In the foreseeable past, Mangyshlak is a hard labor for rioters.
      Even no one can deny such traditional-historical nonsense. For example, the Battle of Kulikovo has been carefully analyzed by F&N and it is quite clear that after the battle, Dmitry Ivanovich only laid the future Moscow on the battlefield. from which sick. Article minus.
      1. marshes
        marshes 25 August 2012 19: 09
        0
        Quote: Horde
        Let me remind you that Mangyshlak is a waterless desert to live there, it was impossible at that time, only to roam. Although archaeologists found some ruins, but to say that there could be some kind of serious civilization on Mangyshlak is a complete nonsense. It is called the point of view of the cabinet scientist. "In the foreseeable past, Mangyshlak is a hard labor for rioters.

        Do not offend the Adays - this is part of their habitat.
        1. Horde
          Horde 25 August 2012 19: 25
          0
          Do not offend the Adays - this is part of their habitat


          on Mangyshlak there is no WATER in abundance, this is the most important thing, you can live there, but badly. Let me remind you that Skobelev took Khiva the largest state of Central Asia with the loss of only 200 people. Tishniki rave about the "glorious heroes" of people from Mangyshlak.
          1. marshes
            marshes 25 August 2012 19: 34
            0
            Quote: Horde
            The SIS, however, rave about the "glorious heroes" of those who came from Mangyshlak.

            And who are the Silence?
            What I know myself: Mangyshlak-Mangistuy used to be part of the Bukeev horde. The trouble is that part of the Adays migrated, in difficult years, to Turkmenistan, Iran, Uzbekistan and other regions. Now they are returning.
            1. Horde
              Horde 25 August 2012 19: 49
              0
              And who are the Silence?


              Well, if you didn’t ask about F&N, it means you probably heard about Tishnikov. In general, these are "traditional historians" who follow the teachings of the medieval scholastic monks Scaliger (scale) and Petavius.
              1. marshes
                marshes 25 August 2012 19: 59
                0

                Thanks for the information.
                This is about myself, my tears are rolling where I would not be, that America or Africa.
                In the film, released in 1977, a fragment was "cut out" with the words: "Oh, Great world! Look at me, I am your speck of dust. Son of a Kazakh, I am!" It remains only: "I am the son of a Kazakh." This begs the question: for what purpose was this done? In order not to raise the spirit of the Kazakh people? Most likely, yes. After all, there was some idea about the creation of the Soviet man. So that he forgot his history and lived only with the ideas of communism. That is, it was carried out in a kind, mass hypnosis. What is well reflected in the work of Chingiz Aitmatov "Storm Stop" is to make a mangurt, a weak-willed slave and a zombie out of a man. In the east there is a proverb: "Forget traditions - forget ancestors, forget ancestors - forget yourself"
                This is for this segment ...
                1. Horde
                  Horde 25 August 2012 20: 24
                  0
                  ingiz Aitmatov "Burannyi polustanok" - to make a mangurt out of a man,


                  ... a mankurt by the way with Aitmatov.
                  We are a little distracted from the topic of discussion.
                  For example, how to explain the fact that Tokhtamysh’s troops didn’t have heavy guns, but probably nobody had them then, dared to go to war in Moscow at TI, which already had a stone fortress with guns on the walls?
                  How did Tokhtamysh dare to go to war on the winner of the Kulikovo battle, because the troops who won the war have an extremely high morale, and here, well, must Tokhtamysh dare to take military action?
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 25 August 2012 20: 35
                    0
                    Quote: Horde
                    How did Tokhtamysh dare to go to war on the winner of the Kulikovo battle, because the troops who won the war have an extremely high morale, and here, well, must Tokhtamysh dare to take military action?

                    Betrayal.
                    Prince of Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal Dmitry Konstantinovich, who was timely informed of the actions of Tokhtamysh, sent his sons Vasily Kirdyapu and Semyon to him by the embassy, ​​but those, due to the rapid movement of Tokhtamysh’s troops, did not catch the khan on the spot and, chasing, overtook him only a few days at the borders Ryazan principality. Oleg Ryazansky, in order not to ruin his principality, met Tokhtamysh outside his land and expressed humility, indicating the available fords on the Oka River. Tokhtamysh led the army around the Ryazan principality from the east.
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 25 August 2012 21: 03
                      +2
                      Betrayal.


                      and where did the invincible troops of Dmitri Ivanovich go? Let me remind you that according to the TI, Dmitry’s troops were called traders from 400 thousand. Nikon's chronicle (and, of course, the list, not the chronicle), up to 50 thousand soldiers (researcher Razin). After the defeat of Mamai, the Russians got all the weapons of the enemy and therefore Dmitry-Prince Moskovsky could arm twice the large army and of course it is easy to repel Tokhtamysh, the troops Dmitry, they failed somewhere. They defeated Mamai and self-destructed.


                      joke the invasion of Tokhtamysh, Tokhtamysh, which is not traditional in the Byzantine crown, and the army, something that is not like the Asians from Mangyshlak. The horses are clearly not Mongolian, inconsistencies and paradoxes accompany these stories.
                      1. Horde
                        Horde 25 August 2012 21: 54
                        0
                        The news of the approaching enemy troops, it was received "from some of the willing, living within the Tatar", took the Moscow government by surprise. Dmitry Ivanovich withdrew the forces (and his troops suffered huge losses on the Kulikovo field) towards the Horde. However, having not received support from other princes, seeing the weakness of available forces and the lack of unity, he went north, to Kostroma, to assemble a more powerful army.


                        It doesn’t happen that the victorious army ceases to exist and dissolves itself or self-destructs. And it always happens that after a loud, final success in the war, the commander becomes a national hero and has unquestioned authority, backed up by military force and even if envy and then betrayal take place, then it’s quite obvious that these are isolated cases. It is after such victories that what is called BECOMING A NATION happens.
                        The fact that Dmitry was not able to gather an army, although he knew that refusing to pay tribute, is a war with the Horde, another stupidity that does not fit into any logical framework.
                      2. Evrepid
                        Evrepid 27 August 2012 11: 29
                        0
                        This topic is widely considered in programs on YouTube, where inconsistencies of the history of which are taught at school are shown ...
                        Here's an example:
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnWrrFzbEVs
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKsHuMWL2gE&feature=related
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RirDNctvamM&feature=related
                        etc.
                  2. Brother Sarych
                    Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 20: 44
                    0
                    There are plenty of explanations for those who like what ...
                    There were some showdowns there ...
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 25 August 2012 21: 37
                      0
                      There are plenty of explanations for those who like what ..


                      I like believable stories, not nonsense about drunk Russians.
          2. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 20: 42
            0
            Nothing Skobelev Khiva took? At first he was in the wrong ranks, and then - no reason?
            He took Geok-Tepe and not two hundred people were lost, but twice as much, which was considered quite a lot for the fighting in Central Asia of that time ...
            1. Horde
              Horde 25 August 2012 21: 26
              0
              Nothing Skobelev Khiva took?


              what in general?
              Kostin Boris Akimovich researcher and writer.
              Verevkin ordered the assault, and Skobelev instructed to carry out reconnaissance in battle.
              Khiva residents poured Russian lead. The cannonballs, breaking, whipped up huge fountains of sand. But well-aimed shots of the Russian battery silenced their artillery. Skobelev was the first to get into the gap made at the Shahabat gate. Following him, two companies of his vanguard entered the fortress and, after a short-lived battle, took possession of the walls and towers. After which Skobelev with his detachment, conquering every street in battle, broke through to the Khan's palace. May 29, 1873 Khiva fell.
              1. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 22: 46
                0
                Is this when Kaufman calmly entered the other gate?
                There was such an incident - the defenders of the far edge of the city did not receive an order to surrender, and so there was a skirmish ...
                I repeat once again that Mikhail Dmitrievich was not in those ranks yet so that he could take cities, although he managed to commit many heroic acts ...
                1. Horde
                  Horde 25 August 2012 23: 07
                  -2
                  I repeat once again that Mikhail Dmitrievich was not in those ranks yet so that he could take cities, although he managed to commit many heroic acts ...


                  do not confuse General Skobelev, a military genius and patriot of the Russian people, with Timurovites from the Gaidar children's books. Skobelev FIRST burst into Khiva for the rest of the troops and his contribution to this is decisive. Kaufman was more of a hindrance throughout the war, as is usually the case with Russian Germans. His command of the troops was unsatisfactory.
                  1. Brother Sarych
                    Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 23: 15
                    -1
                    If you do not know this story, then better keep silent! And do not roll the barrel on Kaufman - he did not deserve it!
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 25 August 2012 23: 47
                      0
                      If you do not know this story, then better keep silent! And do not roll the barrel on Kaufman - he did not deserve it


                      in the case, that is, what is there to say, or put a minus current?
                      1. Brother Sarych
                        Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 08: 43
                        0
                        All the same, you can’t bet more than one minus on one snout of the opponent, with all desire, it won’t work ...
                        I look that there’s nothing to tell you on this topic ...
                      2. Horde
                        Horde 26 August 2012 09: 24
                        0
                        All the same, you can’t bet more than one minus on one snout of the opponent, with all desire, it won’t work ...
                        I look that there’s nothing to tell you on this topic ...


                        just the same, I expressed my doubts, the turn is yours, or on this forum are you just putting a minus?
  5. hommer
    hommer 25 August 2012 21: 27
    +1
    Dear Bolot and Horde, I also could not find a logically acceptable interpretation of all these events before. The approach to these things like Gumilyov, Karamzin, Solovyov, not counting earlier researchers and, especially, our national governments with their hyperbolized-distorted ideas completely did not suit me.
    The historian Sultan Akimbekov recently published his, I'm not afraid to say, "History of the steppes. The Phenomenon of the State of Genghis Khan". Do not take it for bias and advertising, indeed the interpretation of all the events that the author tries to explain on the basis of economic reasons has a right to exist.
    In short - there was a struggle for control over the Silk Road, trade routes between China and Europe. The rest are derivatives.

    The only thing that causes rejection is the position of the so-called. Brother Sarych. Somewhere in the discussions a respected commentator "aksakal" has already called him "the dust of our site" ....

    Quote: Brother Sarych
    Is Khan Urus a not too strange name for a khan?

    Only this one of your phrases shows absolute categorical aggressive ignorance.
    Dust is dust. Bauyrym, if you are an Uzbek, then for your information, Kazakhs always remember that we are one people. If you are not an Uzbek, it simply sounds like a provocateur.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 22: 51
      -4
      And in my opinion, not only this name looks strange enough, many more facts indicate that a well-edited story has come down to us ...
      And if we go back to the "Kazakh" rams, then it is clearly seen that their brains are generally rinsed to zero with tales of their former greatness ...
  6. Zmitcer
    Zmitcer 25 August 2012 22: 21
    0
    Become a niac. Some old news about the internal showdown inside the horde, between the Moscow ulus and the center. lol it just shows once again how much the importance of the Battle of Kulikovo was exaggerated, a common internecine war within the Horde at that time. But the battle on the Blue Waters in 1362 and the victory of the troops of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania over the Horde was really that victory that undermined the power of the Horde, made it possible to liberate Podolia and forget the Tatars' road to Kiev. And by the way, if on the Kulikovo field, Yagailo would "put a spear" to the Moscow Tatars, everything would be different.
    1. Bazilevs
      Bazilevs 25 August 2012 22: 33
      +1
      all this is bullshit, it would be if only, worthless garbage dear Zmitcer, there is Russia is Moscow and where is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania now?
      1. Zmitcer
        Zmitcer 25 August 2012 22: 42
        0
        Dear ... as I understand it, a man is hiding under your nickname. Well, be so kind as without the "woman's" hysteria, without splashing saliva, write what exactly "bullshit". Give the facts. This is the first thing. Second. There is no Roman Empire either, but there is Italy, just like the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruska and Zhamoist, and now there is Belarus. So keep an eye on the bazaar, and don't talk bullshit, as you put it.
        1. Horde
          Horde 25 August 2012 22: 56
          0
          There is no Roman Empire either, however there is Italy, just as there was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruske and Zhamoistkoy, and now there is Belarus


          you probably know the story well. Maybe a little off topic? The Livonian war -1558-1583 against Lithuania was fought by Russia, but this is the present Belarus, how did it happen that White Russia, which became Lithuania, fought with Russia. One part of the state fought with the other? Could this be?
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 25 August 2012 23: 01
            0
            Are you fooling around, or what? And where are you driving?
            It was not the states that fought, but the rulers, so it’s nothing strange that at one moment they were allies, and at another they were mortal enemies ...
            1. Horde
              Horde 25 August 2012 23: 34
              0
              Are you fooling around, or what? And where are you driving?


              take it easy buddy!

              It was not the states that fought, but the rulers,


              this is a very dubious point of view, because at that time the fragmentation of Russia had already been overcome, all the lands united around Moscow, the Horde was defeated and its troops became allies of Russia, Ivan4 took Kazan, the state was basically in order. The forces of united Russia were more powerful than coalition forces , the basis of which was Lithuania - the Belarusian state.
              It should be noted that the coalition of states against Russia is already very implausible Catholic Sweden, Denmark, Livonia and Orthodox Lithuania, against the Orthodox Russia?
              1. Zmitcer
                Zmitcer 25 August 2012 23: 56
                0
                Well, you can write a lot here, on the whole, you are right as regards the fact that the Moscow state survived, unlike the entire horde, and Lithuania was divided into Orthodox (eastern part) and Catholic (western part, including Black Russia , Grodno district). There was an attempt to go over to the Orthodoxy, but this all led to a war. By the way, this was one of the reasons for Ivan the Terrible to "stand up" for his fellow believers on the territory of Lithuania. As they say, if you want war, then there is a reason. Under him, 20% of the population of Moscow are Lithuanians. Who fled from the war, who were led by force (mostly they were artisans). Lithuania collapsed, divided by Poles and Muscovites, because of freedom of religion. At that time "democracy" cost us the state.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 27 August 2012 13: 14
                  0
                  Quote: Zmitcer
                  Jagailo "would put a spear" to the Moscow Tatars

                  Quote: Zmitcer
                  The Moscow state has stood, unlike the whole horde


                  It must be understood that Russia is the Horde? More and more interesting ...
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 27 August 2012 18: 21
                    0
                    It must be understood that Russia is the Horde? More and more interesting ...


                    Do you pretend that Vladimir’s fallen from the moon? The works of the financial and social sciences have been in progress for 40 years.
              2. Geton
                Geton 26 August 2012 07: 10
                0
                Perhaps religious differences were not great at that time, and similar unions took place? Or something like civil strife (remember the deplorable speech about Swedish Karl)?
                1. Horde
                  Horde 26 August 2012 08: 09
                  +2
                  Geton welcome.

                  Perhaps religious differences were not great at that time, and similar alliances took place


                  There can only be two points of view. One TIishnaya, the institution of Catholicism born a thousand years before these events was completely formed during this time. And represented by Western states. The Catholicity already fought with Orthodoxy for the minds, souls and territories of Orthodoxy, therefore religious there were contradictions and they were sharp. Therefore, the union of the Orthodox Lithuania and the rest of the Catholic Confederation looks unnatural.
                  Or the second point of view formed by academician Fomenko and Nosovsky. The Battle of Kulikovo is a religious struggle of TWO parts of Christianity of the patrimonial and apostolic. The Apostolic in the person of Prince Dmitry took over. pay the maintenance of the troops, and of course they were not as cruel and ruinous as the traditions broadcast to us - they were punishments for disobedience. The Livonian war is essentially a full-scale war of Western Europe against the metropolis of Russia - the Hordes. And not only the countries of the confederation participated in this war, but ALL Western Europe, undergoing the era of the Reformation.
                  1. Geton
                    Geton 26 August 2012 09: 48
                    +2
                    Hi . According to Fin Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy. Now it is very difficult to reconstruct the true events and their causes, especially after the activities of the "Russian historians, academicians" Bayer, Schlötser, Miller and their students, the writers Solovyov, Karamzin, Klyuchevsky.
            2. Zmitcer
              Zmitcer 25 August 2012 23: 38
              -3
              Quote: Brother Sarich
              Not states fought, but rulers
              - you fool around. That they would have fought so if they went into a pure field one on one. And so Muscovy drowned our people in the blood. Only during the Livonian War did we lose every second inhabitant .. when we were allies? perhaps only in the trenches of World War II, and before that the Muscovites are enemies. And that is a fact.
              1. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 08: 38
                -1
                Everything is clear with you - this is a clinic, this is not for us ...
              2. shkodnik
                shkodnik 28 September 2012 23: 14
                0
                in this, that is, if you believe the historical chronicles of the war with on lasted more than 100 years longer, the Principality of Moscow did not fight with anyone
          2. shkodnik
            shkodnik 28 September 2012 23: 02
            0
            how it turned out that White Russia, which became Lithuania, fought with Russia

            not with Russia but with the Principality of Moscow. Russia was just a part of incl.
      2. shkodnik
        shkodnik 28 September 2012 22: 59
        0
        indeed, by the time of the Kulikovo battle, Russia had already been liberated from the horde’s rule; in the horde, mostly woodland remained, which only at the beginning of the 18th century Peter 1 ordered to be called the Russian Empire
  7. Zmitcer
    Zmitcer 25 August 2012 23: 14
    +1
    fool I am not going to be involved in your education. Google, read. maybe you will understand. You can break the brain about what you wrote. wassat Do not confuse the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruske and Zhamoistkoy (sometimes also called Lithuanian Rus) and the Moscow State. And by the way, we allied with Poland, and began to be called the Commonwealth, just the same against the main historical enemy - Muscovy .. in short, good luck. learn history laughing
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 08: 39
      -1
      Damn, you won’t put a minus, but arguing is useless ...
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 27 August 2012 13: 19
      0
      Quote: Zmitcer
      and before that Muscovites are enemies

      Quote: Zmitcer
      And by the way, we allied with Poland, and began to be called the Commonwealth, just the same against the main historical enemy - Muscovy

      Well, of course. There was no Litvin fight with the Poles. There were no crusades against Lithuania.
      It’s fashionable to search for enemies in the east ...
  8. suharev-52
    suharev-52 26 August 2012 00: 11
    0
    Thanks a lot for the article and reasonable, sane comments. I read it with interest, learned a lot. Thanks again. Sincerely.
    1. Horde
      Horde 26 August 2012 01: 21
      +1
      Thanks a lot for the article and reasonable, sane comments.


      always please contact
      Long live the mind, let the insanity disappear! smile
      1. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 08: 40
        -1
        Sure. what did they write to you? laughing
        1. Horde
          Horde 26 August 2012 08: 57
          0
          Sure. what did they write to you?


          Sukharev52 wrote about reasonable comments, so it’s definitely not for you.
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 15: 59
            0
            Did he tell you this, or did you decide?
  9. maxiv1979
    maxiv1979 26 August 2012 07: 14
    +1
    the fool is still fools who believe in the Tatars, Mongols and others) ordinary internecine wars, argue that it was 50 and 100 years ago, but you’re here ... 1382 year !! how colorfully described)) one chronicle, confused, crazy what can, but not !! we need loot, we are historians, our children also want to eat, read, marvel))
    1. Geton
      Geton 26 August 2012 08: 01
      +2
      Bushkov said well: To summarize some results. Logically, history as a science comes down to three descriptive points.

      1. The basis is not exact knowledge, but
      some teaching
      distributed by a group of unquestioned authorities and not backed by tangible evidence.

      2. Only “initiates” can comprehend the essence of the teaching, while the rest, “profane”, are incapable of this.

      3. Everything that "authorities" teach should be accepted
      on faith
      without expressing doubts or entering into discussions.

      And in addition - a rigid system of vertical hierarchy, when the subordinates are completely dependent on the higher ones, and a well-developed system of repressions, which is used against those who dare to raise doubts or at least require logical and convincing evidence.

      Do you recognize? Before us is a classic description
      totalitarian sect
      like the White Brotherhood or the Branch of David. The characteristics coincide in all respects ... And the additional points, that is, the vertical hierarchy and repressions against dissidents, also bring historical science closer to the mafia "family". As a totalitarian sect and mafia organization, historical science extracts certain concrete, tangible material goods from the position that its members occupy from the preached teachings ... That's it, what did you think?
      1. Horde
        Horde 26 August 2012 08: 54
        0
        Do you recognize? Before us is a classic description
        totalitarian sect
        like the White Brotherhood or the Branch of David


        Withholding truthful historical information from peoples and replacing it with fiction with carefully selected facts is essentially an INFORMATION WAR that has been going on against the Russian people for hundreds of years. The actions of the rewriting company are well thought out and coordinated.
        FIs wrote how the campaign to rewrite history was carried out. A code of "forbidden books" was published and over the centuries all old books and chronicles were confiscated and destroyed, and instead of people they slipped nonsense like "The Tale of Bygone Years" with primitive comics, and even so corrected that forgery becomes visible to the naked eye. However, access to such information is strictly limited and only for "insiders".
        The story is written in such a way that the legitimate pride of the Russians for the victory in the Battle of Kulikovo should be replaced by bewilderment and disappointment from stupid and ridiculous defeats such as the invasions of Tokhtamysh or other equally devastating invasions. Moreover, note that the psychological impact of such a story on the minds of Russians is very similar to the presentation modern information on the media. The same uninterrupted wars, explosions, debauchery, corruption and arrogant discussions about the inability of Russians to restore any order in their own country.
        1. Geton
          Geton 26 August 2012 09: 51
          0
          Our country, but the state is not yet.
        2. Brother Sarych
          Brother Sarych 26 August 2012 16: 02
          +1
          Who said there was this battle? More precisely, in the form in which it is customary to present it in the "classical" history ...
          And was that Tokhtamysh in the same "classical" form?
        3. Flooding
          Flooding 27 August 2012 13: 25
          +1
          Quote: Horde
          and to replace the people they slipped nonsense like "The Tale of Bygone Years" with primitive comics, and even then so corrected that the forgery becomes visible to the naked eye. However, access to such information is strictly limited and only for "their own".

          Horde, of course, not everything is going smoothly. But you have a lot of questions.
          IMMEDIATELY the following is striking: the traditional history and the very historical documents that it is based on are branded. But at the first opportunity, from the same sources that you just paraffinized, you pull out individual images and fragments of them and refer to them with inconsistencies that prove the inconsistency of traditional history.
          No, since you are not satisfied with primitive comics, show us YOUR primary sources.
          1. Horde
            Horde 27 August 2012 19: 04
            0
            But at the first opportunity, from the same sources that you just paraffinized,


            Vladimir, what a terminology, we are not on the street, "voennoe obozreniye" is a respected resource that attracts the attention of ours, yours, young and old, and I think the leadership does not shun "the opinion of the people."

            No, since you are not satisfied with primitive comics, show us YOUR primary sources.

            willingly ...
            This is a fragment of the Yaroslavl icon "Sergei Radonezhsky with his Life" dates from the middle of the 17th century.
            the history of the icon is such in 1959 with the help of modern chemistry, the icon could be cleaned from subsequent layers of drying oil, which turns black over time. This is what saved the icon, if TIshniki, sorry-canonical historians, would have seen this before, we would NEVER they saw this historical artifact, don’t doubt the icon would have been destroyed, like many frescoes in churches and monasteries.
            And what do we see on the icon? Two troops of Dmitry Ivanovich and the dark man Mamai. But that the troops of Dmitry, that the troops of Mamai, ALL have the same EUROPEAN faces, but according to TI, the troops of Mamai are the majority of ASIANS! Further more Mamai's troops descend from the HILL and cross the river, in accordance with the "Zadonshchina", you can show where in the supposed place of the battle in the Tula region. according to the canonical version there is a hill with which you can go down and cross the river?
            Further, the troops of Dmitry and the troops of Mamaia battle under the same Red flag-banners.
            Well, why did I say so unflattering about the decoration of the "Tale of Bygone Years", because the QUALITY of the image is surprisingly low and does not go into any comparison with the image of the icon, and this is our main historical chronicle, on its basis most of the research has been done and conclusions. The image of the icon is better to look for yourself, in this picture it is not very clear.

            http://chronologia.org/Reconstr/Capital5-10.htm
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 28 August 2012 11: 35
              0
              Oh, the Horde.
              Hoping to leave your trump card in your sleeve. Hoping to pull the other out.
              It turns out that they are no more?
              As for the mentioned icon, in the absence of other information I agree - it raises many questions.
              But I will not undertake to hastily judge this issue. Maybe get acquainted with the version of traditional historians, if any))
              By the way, did you have a conversation about Latinizing the Moldavian language? Or with someone else?
              1. Horde
                Horde 28 August 2012 17: 51
                0
                It turns out that they are no more?


                Are you talking about a trump card? I have them. smile for example, an interesting fact, professional cartographer A.Yu. Ryabtsev made a map of the mutual arrangement of European capitals and a curious picture opened




                the Russian city of VLADIMIR was not in vain called the OWNER of the WORLD-this fact is historians
                not how not to comment, but what can they say. sad

                http://chronologia.org/xpon4/14_14.html

                about the romanization of the Romanian and Moldavian languages, our conversation was on the topic "Invasion of Batu"
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 29 August 2012 12: 43
                  +1
                  Quote: Horde
                  about the romanization of the Romanian and Moldavian languages, we had a conversation with you

                  an interesting fact, on the same seal of the ruler of Moldova from 1457 to 1504. Stephen III the Great (Stefan cel Mare) literally wrote the following "Voivode of the Moldavian Land". Naturally, in Cyrillic or Roman-Cyrillic. BUT it is important that it is literally in Russian. Not "voivode pemintului moldovenesc", as it would sound in Moldovan.
                  It is obvious that at that time the Moldavian language sounded completely different. But how much different? It seems to me that the Slavs occupied in it by no means a small fraction.

                  And as for the given map ... You should understand that in a two-dimensional projection the exact transfer of coordinates and proportions is very important. I don’t know, I need to check on a satellite map. And also see what happens if the center of an imaginary circle is to choose Rome, for example.
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 29 August 2012 19: 06
                    0
                    You must understand that in two-dimensional projection, the exact transfer of coordinates and proportions is very important.


                    you didn’t even follow the link, novochronologists would be nice if you thought that the Earth is flat. Everything is calculated. In addition to Vladimir, there is no longer such a city with such an effect.

                    an interesting fact, on the same seal of the ruler of Moldova from 1457 to 1504. Stephen III the Great (Stefan cel Mare) literally wrote the following "Voivode of the Moldavian Land


                    Yes, an interesting fact, can I ask you to give a link?
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 29 August 2012 20: 25
                      0
                      Quote: Horde
                      Yes, an interesting fact, can I ask you to give a link?

                      Link to print image? Please: http://kosarev.press.md/Utopia-menu-0.htm
                      True, I sorted the letters on my own. I have not read this link yet, I just found it today. But it seems that the author is thinking in the same direction.
  10. Magadan
    Magadan 26 August 2012 16: 04
    +1
    Swamps!
    Thanks for the posts! It’s a pity he could only plus one time, but consider that under your every post there are my pluses!
    We look forward to hearing from you a large article on a historical topic.
    In general, the topic is quite complicated. Then everyone fought against each other. But the country was unified along the way. Who was the biggest enemy of the Russians - Tatars or the Russians themselves is still a big question. I am rather a supporter of Leo Gimilev. On the example of specific great Russian surnames - Sheremetyevs, Yusupovs, Saltykovs, etc. who were Tatars, he personally convinced me that there was no permanent war with the Horde. There was a single state that lived by justice, according to the concepts that were acceptable in those days. There were interparticles, but if there weren’t the same Horde, we would now have not received great Russia from ocean to ocean, but a bunch of small states formed on the basis of the Kiev, Murom and Ryazan principalities.
  11. Setrac
    Setrac 26 August 2012 23: 30
    +1
    In the annals of dubious origin there are only a few lines, and the COMPOSITION wrote, damn it, what kind of crap is this article ???
  12. Oles
    Oles 7 October 2012 13: 19
    0
    Don cowardly dog ​​..... and drank Moscow .. that's not funny .. well, Russia .. well, things ......
  13. Head Physician
    Head Physician 4 November 2017 23: 09
    +15
    26 August 1382 Tokhtamysh captured and burned Moscow

    And D. Donskoy escaped "to collect troops" - that is, to "work with documents"