Military Review

Losses of the Wehrmacht. The Mueller-Hillebrand system of fraud

135

The Mueller-Hillebrand falsifications


In a comprehensive study of the works of Müller-Hillebrand "Land Army of Germany 1933-1945" (1958), Rudiger Overmans "Military losses of Germany in World War II" (1999) and the chapter "Human losses of the enemy" Krivosheev (1993) on the topic of losses of the Wehrmacht and SS , the goals and objectives of both German fundamentalists are clearly identified. Both have built a competent system of falsifications, which is revealed by a whole chain of jewelry coincidences with an accuracy of up to a thousand people in millions of arrays.


Losses of the Wehrmacht. The Mueller-Hillebrand system of fraud
Major General B. Müller-Hillebrand

It is strange that over the past decades, no one has come up with an inherently simple approach - expose the falsifications of both fundamentalists and you will go to the closed archives of the Bundeswehr. Otherwise, ask the question: "If these are not real archives, then why was it necessary to create such a competent falsification that could not be opened for more than six decades?"

The analytics itself is quite complex, so in this topic I will only present the end results. In the future, perhaps, I will post an analyst where the readers themselves will reveal all the falsifications, and I will only consistently indicate the quotes and tables where the next forgeries of both fundamentalists lie. I apologize for some dryness of the presentation, since according to his basic education he is a representative of the exact sciences, in connection with which the topic has not so much cognitive as practical historical value for determining the losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS for periods of war. I also apologize for the untimely answer to the questions, as I work closely on the schedule two in two.

What You Should Know About The Müller-Hillebrand Book "German Land Army 1933-1945".

If you want to take into account the real number of soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS, who left the Wehrmacht and SS forever, then consider the following four points.

1 moment. Müller-Hillebrand underestimated the article "Killed" for the period from 1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944 exactly three times. Accordingly, in order to determine the real number of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers killed by the months of the war, you must open "Supplement A" of the book and multiply all data on the article "Killed" strictly by three.

The article "Killed" contains six sub-articles:
- "Those who died on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation";
- "Dead from wounds in the rear hospitals" (loss of the reserve army);
- “Missing” (servicemen, whose death in the encirclement and on the battlefield has not been recorded by anyone);
- "Died from Disease";
- "Fatalities from careless handling of military equipment and ammunition";
- "Shot by a military tribunal."

Thus, Müller-Hillebrand scrupulously counted the losses in all six sub-items, summed them up and then ... unceremoniously divided them into three, displaying the article "Killed" by month.

2 moment. The article "Missing" in "Appendix A" on periods of war contains strictly only prisoners of war soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS. There are no unaccounted for killed on the battlefield, since they are all accounted for in the article "The Killed", and there are no deserters either - they are accounted for in a separate article, "Deserters and Convicts."

At the time point of 30.11.1944/176/300, an underestimation of 176 in the number of prisoners of war of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers occurs. This is a purely technical underestimation, since with a triple underestimation under the article "Killed" there is an overflow of 300, which was compensated by the author at the expense of prisoners of war of the Wehrmacht and SS soldiers in the ground forces on the Eastern Front.

With the identification of 176 hidden prisoners of war plus 300 "Missing", according to M.-Gillebrand, we clearly reach the number of 2 prisoners on both fronts from 870 to 404, which is obtained in a different independent way. Such a jewelry coincidence suggests that the “Missing” according to M.-Gillebrand are purely prisoners of war.

According to this article in "Appendix A" for months of war, the ratio is 1: 1, that is, a missing person is equal to a prisoner of war soldier of the Wehrmacht and SS.

3 moment. In order to understand the complete irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS by the months of the war, it is also necessary to take into account the disabled - the sanitary article "Commissioned for disability due to wounds, contusions, severe burns and frostbite" (hereinafter for the sake of brevity, the article "Disabled"). According to the Wehrmacht, the ratio of the article "Killed" to "Invalids" was:

- 5 / 733 = 000 for the period from 1 to 891;
- 1 / 157 = 000 from 418/400/2,7653 to 1.12.1944/30.4.1945/XNUMX;
- 6 / 890 = 000 - the averaged ratio for the entire period from 2.9826 to 2,9826 (for the RKKA, this averaged ratio was 1.9.1939: 30.4.1945).

*** Another 58 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers will die on the Eastern Front from 000 to 1.5.1945, reaching a total of 11.5.1945 "Killed" on both fronts.

Thus, in order to determine the irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS by the months of the war, you must multiply the "Killed" strictly by three, add the "Missing in action" to the result obtained, as indicated by M.-Gillebrand one to one, and also take into account " Disabled people "according to the above formula, depending on the period under review.

4 moment. To the amount received, it is necessary to add the sanitary article "Recognized as unfit for military service due to two or more wounds."

In the period from 1.9.1939 to 22.6.1941, during the conquest of Europe, several hundred thousand soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS were injured. On the Eastern Front, they began to receive repeated wounds, which made them unsuitable for further service in the Wehrmacht and the military SS. The servicemen were sent to the paramilitary guards, to the industry.

From 1.9.1939 to 30.4.1945, this article amounted to 2 people, but given that repeated injuries began with the beginning of the Eastern Front, it can be calculated using a simplified formula:

2/000 000 days ~ 1 people per day, or approximately 410–1 per month (420–42600 days).

This article is not irrevocable, since, unlike the three previous articles, there is a rotation - a person is sent to the paramilitary security or to the industry, and the freed one comes to his place in the Wehrmacht and the SS.

The complete system of falsifications is rather complicated, but I have explained to you the basic principles of accounting for the losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS by the months of the war.

Example. Let's calculate the losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS for July 1941 on both fronts (see table in Appendix A).

1. 51 * 000 = 3 under the item "Killed" (according to the revealed coefficient of underestimation of three, under the item "Killed", for the period from 153 to 000).

2. 3 under the article "Prisoners of war".

3. 153 / 000 ~ 3.03 under the article “Disabled”.

4. 44 "Recognized as unfit for combat due to two or more wounds" (estimated value).

Thus, in July 1941, at least 250 people left the Wehrmacht and the military SS for good, of which 700 were irrevocable. At least, since it is also necessary to take into account the article "Commissioned due to acquired chronic diseases", as well as the article "Deserters and convicts" for this period.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that "Killed" and "Prisoners of war" are not calculated values, unlike "Invalids" and "Unsuitable for combat due to two or more wounds." This is the data of Mueller-Hillebrand himself, but taking into account the revealed falsifications.

General balance of mobilized in the Wehrmacht and the military SS


Most of the research on the subject of human losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS is reduced only to the "Killed", "Prisoners of war" and "Invalids", that is, to irrecoverable losses. At the same time, five more articles are overlooked, according to which servicemen permanently retired from the Wehrmacht and the military SS.

Below I will give the full balance of those mobilized in the Wehrmacht and the SS, based on the identified falsifications.

21 - the total number of those mobilized in the Wehrmacht and the military SS, taking into account German citizens, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich, Soviet collaborators.

This number is divided into two groups - 806 Soviet collaborators and 000 German citizens, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich.

806 - servicemen of the Red Army and citizens of the USSR, of which:
357 - died in the course of hostilities with the Red Army, partisans of the USSR and Europe, allies, and were also captured and shot by a military tribunal from the summer of 000 to the summer of 1942 (then they began to send them to special camps of the NKVD, with the subsequent dispatch of soldiers and sergeants to settlements, and officers - in the GULAG);
449 - captured during the hostilities and sent to settlements and the Gulag, deserted from the Wehrmacht and the SS into the partisan movement of the USSR and Europe, retreated beyond the line of demarcation and were not surrendered by the allies.

Müller-Hillebrand and Rüdiger Overmans exclude Soviet collaborators from the following eight balance sheet items.

20 - German citizens, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich, of which:
16 - citizens of Germany;
4 - citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich.

For eight items of the balance sheet, both fundamentalists painted only this composition, excluding Soviet collaborators.

1. Sanitary clause.
2 - “Recognized as unfit for combat duty due to the presence of two or more wounds and demobilized into industry, into the paramilitary guard from 000/000/1.9.1939 to 30.4.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX” (“Suitable for non-combatant service”). Lost to the army, but not lost to the economy.

2. Sanitary article. Permanent staffing of hospitals.
700 - "Wounded in hospitals at the time of the end of hostilities" on 000/30.4.1945/XNUMX.
The permanent staffing of hospitals was formed during the first two months of the war and was maintained in the range from 700 to 000 during the war. Nominally they are, but they are constantly absent at the front - one is discharged, and another immediately comes in his place.

3. Sanitary clause.
438 - "Commissioned for acquired chronic diseases in the period from 000 to 1.9.1939 with exclusion from the register." Lost to the army, but not lost to the economy, since chronic illness is not an obstacle to work.

4. Sanitary article (non-returnable article)
2 310 100 - "Commissioned due to disability with exclusion from the register" from 1.9.1939 to 30.4.1945, of which:
- 1 due to bullet and shrapnel wounds;
- 560 due to contusions (blind, deaf), severe fractures from a shock wave, extensive burns and frostbite.
People with disabilities are lost to both the army and the economy.

Article 5. Others (irrevocable article).
153 - "Not found deserters, sentenced to places of confinement" from 000 to 1.9.1939.
Lost both for the army and for the economy during the war.

Article 6. Prisoners of war (irrevocable article).
3 651 700 - "Captives during the hostilities" from 1.9.1939 to 11.5.1945, of which:

2 785 500 - on the Eastern Front for the entire period from 22.6.1941/11.5.1945/2 to 180/500/22.6.1941, (30.4.1945 605 000 in the period from 1.5.1945/11.5.1945/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX and XNUMX in the period from XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX);
866 200 - on the Eastern Front for the entire period from 1.9.1939 to 30.4.1945.
The prisoners are lost to both the army and the economy during the war.

The hostilities on the Eastern Front ceased and a massive surrender began on 2.5.1945. No 4 were taken prisoner by the Allies on 209!

Article 7. Fatalities (irrevocable article).
6 - "Those who died in the course of hostilities for the period from 948 to 000" (those who died on the battlefield and the sanitary evacuation stage, died from injuries in hospitals, not recorded death in battle, died from diseases, died from careless handling with military equipment and ammunition, shot by the court of a military tribunal), of which partly by calculation method, but mainly on the basis of revealed falsifications:

5 - on the Eastern Front, including during periods of war:

741 - in the period from 000 to 22.6.1941
(690 - in the ground forces, 000 - in the Air Force, Navy);

4 - in the period from 010/000/1.12.1941 to 31.12.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX
(3 655 000 - in the ground forces, 355 000 - in the Air Force, Navy);

819 - in the period from 000 to 1.1.1945 (11.5.1945 to 761, 000 to 30.4.1945, but it was not possible to divide by the type of troops).

1 - on the Eastern Front, including by periods:

1 - in the period from 145/000/1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX
(906 - in the ground forces, 000 - in the Air Force, Navy);
233 - in the period from 000 to 1.1.1945, but it was not possible to divide by type of troops.

The dead are lost to both the army and the economy.

Article 8. Surrendered after 30.4.1945.

4 - the total number of those who surrendered after 100, of which:

391 800 - on the Eastern Front after 9.5.1945;
3 708 200 - on the Eastern Front (3 405 000 from 1.5.1945 to 9.5.1945, 303 200 after 9.5.1945).
They are not irrevocable, since they surrendered after the end of hostilities.

And here it is very interesting with Rüdiger Overmans!

While the historical community carefully studied the work of Rudiger Overmans, accepting his data in 4 dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS as the most reliable, Overmans "got" the same historical community from the other side.

The fact is that 3 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers surrendered during the "period of the eclipse from 405 to 000", that is, during the period of the actual cessation of hostilities on the Eastern Front before the official surrender on 1.5.1945. So, Rüdiger Overmans first counts them as "Surrendered", and after the official surrender he re-counts them as "Prisoners in the course of hostilities."

Thus, the real number of 4 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers, "Captured in the course of hostilities until April 209, 000" and "Surrendered after April 30.4.1945, 30.4.1945" to the Americans and the British, soars to 7 in space.

At the same time, the French, Canadians and other "Captured" and "Accepted by surrender" of another 365 400 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers.

The total real number of 4 prisoners, "Captured during the hostilities from 574 to 400" and "Surrendered after 1.9.1939" on the Eastern Front, takes off to space 30.4.1945.

The re-registration of 3 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers in the Anglo-Saxon captivity was carried out by Rüdiger Overmans at the expense of three balance sheet items:

1. 700 - "Wounded in hospitals at the time of the end of hostilities on 000/30.4.1945/XNUMX";

2. 438 - "Commissioned for acquired chronic diseases in the period from 000 to 1.9.1939";

3. 2 267 000 - unaccounted for “Killed during the hostilities from 1.9.1939 to 11.5.1945”, which make up 2–6 sub-articles of the article “Killed” (Rüdiger Overmans took into account only the first sub-article - 4 681 000 “Fatalities on the battlefield and those who died during the sanitary evacuation "; 4 681 000 dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS, 459 000 dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS, 178 000 dead in paramilitary formations, in total make up 5 318 000 of all dead and dead in captivity according to Rüdiger Overmans).

Losses of the parties in the Great Patriotic War


Irrecoverable losses of the parties from June 1941 to June 1943 (dead, disabled and prisoners of war) were:

10,3 million soldiers of the Red Army (3,9 million dead, 1,3 million disabled, 5,1 million prisoners) plus 0,9 million militias (0,4 million dead, 0,5 million prisoners of war)
против
3,9 million Wehrmacht and SS troops (2,7 dead, 0,9 million disabled, 0,3 million prisoners of war) plus 0,6 million Germany's allies (dead and captured).

Thus, the ratio of losses for the specified period:
11,2 million: 4,5 million ~ 2,5: 1 in favor of Germany.

Irrecoverable losses of the parties for the period from July 1943 to May 1945, the remaining 22 months of the war (dead, disabled and prisoners of war) were:
5 million soldiers of the Red Army (3,5 million dead, 1,2 million disabled, 0,3 million prisoners of war)
против
7 million Wehrmacht and SS troops (3,2 million dead, 1 million disabled, 2,8 million prisoners of war) plus 1,1 million German allies plus 1,1 million Volkssturm (data on the Wehrmacht and SS, taking into account 0,33 million Soviet collaborators in them).

Loss ratio for the specified period:
5 million: 9,2 million = 0,55: 1 in favor of the USSR.

The overall final ratio of irrecoverable losses, according to the principle "All against all", was in favor of the enemy:

1,19: 1 for the dead;
1,19: 1 for prisoners of war;
1,17: 1 for disabled people.


"WINDOWS TASS"

Afterword


Germany lost the war at cost per unit of soldier and equipment.

The cost price and training time of the initial professional staff in 1941 turned out to be so large that two years before the Kursk Bulge, Germany was not able to rebuild the economy and personnel training in such a way as to make up for the volume and quality of the loss of the XNUMXst professional staff on the Eastern Front.

The last color was collected at the Kursk Bulge, where it was ground into the dead, disabled, prisoners of war and unfit for combat due to repeated wounds.

The extensive type of economy of the USSR versus the intensive type in Germany turned out to be more advantageous. The losses of all the Armed Forces of the USSR were only 20% higher than the losses of all the Armed Forces adversary, but the cost of these resources turned out to be several times cheaper than the enemy's resources, which made it possible to mobilize bоmore manpower and more equipment.

Germany, in general, did not count on the mass conscription of the civilian population, since everything was supposed to be done at the expense of the forty-first professional staff, which was prepared for 4 years and tested for another 2 years on the battlefields. Even in XNUMX, they got out of total mobilization at the expense of allies and Soviet collaborators from the prisoner of war camps, realizing that the quality of the conscript-burgher would be significantly lower than the professional staff, and the mass conscription would cause discontent among the population with the ruling elite of Germany. A simple burgher was ready to work for a victorious war, but not to fight and die himself!

The tasks of the Blitzkrieg in 1941 were not fulfilled, primarily due to large losses in the combat strength of German divisions while maintaining the number of support units, as well as the inflexibility of the economy and the reserve army to replenish these losses!

The reasons for the defeats of the Red Army in 1941 lie, first of all, in the professionalism of the Wehrmacht army, which simple mobilized Soviet workers, collective farmers and employees knocked out before the summer of 2,5, albeit in a ratio of 1: XNUMX.

And let at least one country in the world repeat this ratio - ten ordinary citizens against four trained and tested army professionals!

The Kursk Bulge was a fundamental change in all respects, including the ratio of casualties. And if in the future, in the places of the breakthrough, the Red Army suffered losses comparable to the Wehrmacht, then with access to the operational space it more than compensated for its losses with enemy prisoners of war.

A new, strongest land army of its time entered Europe, firmly pushing the Wehrmacht and the military SS into the background.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 27 March 2021 15: 18
    +5
    Müller-Hillebrand underestimated the article "Killed" for the period from 1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944 exactly three times. Accordingly, in order to determine the real number of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers killed by the months of the war, you must open "Supplement A" of the book and multiply all data on the article "Killed" strictly by three.
    Honestly, I did not understand by what logic the machine should be multiplied by three! With Overmans, the logic is clear.
    The fact that these Germans blatantly underestimated it is clear, the article is a plus.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 27 March 2021 18: 03
      +9
      more interesting are the screams of our "who understand totalitarian practices" - 27 million total losses (with not born !!!!!!!!! and Died civilians from the hardships of war in the rear !!!!!) from the USSR.
      How many of these TOTAL LOST IN Z. EUROPE AND THE FINNS? Romanians, et al fought on two sides - how much loss?

      THE MAIN THING :::::: by 01.06.45 the population loss of ZEurope is also the military of all countries who came to the USSR at different times + civilians who died without treatment at their places of residence + unborn (IVS AND VKPb THIS IS THE GUILT)
      and the carpet bombing of the USA and the WB and those who died in all sorts of Dresden - whose merit?

      ??????????????????? unanswered questions
    2. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 27 March 2021 18: 35
      +12
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The fact that these Germans blatantly underestimated it is clear, the article is a plus.

      Colleague, in fairness, I must say that the Germans are pedants in everything and even sometimes it happened that the number of those killed on our side of the Red Army became known only after the 45th year. In addition, we must clearly understand that we fought with the very same united Europe and then, burning with shame, many countries recounted their losses, as if in the fight against Nazism, for example, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, Norway, Yugoslavia, Spain, Italy ...
      My cousin, a participant in the Battle of Stalingrad as a medical instructor, told how she personally shot three Italian prisoners of war, well, like, so that they would not suffer, although there was such steel in her eyes that I think it was a real front-line revenge for the dead comrades.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 27 March 2021 19: 26
        +8
        Quote: Stroporez
        that the Germans are pedants in everything
        This does not prevent lying, Munchausen was by no means French. wink
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 27 March 2021 20: 07
          +5
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          it doesn't hurt to lie, Munchausen was by no means a French

          Duc, I'm talking about this, they are not really lying, and long ago after the war, military losses were recognized as 1: 1, well, of course, with errors.
          Again, I repeat, if you count the size of the divisions for June 41 and the size of the Red Army for the same period, and then the same for December-January 41-42, and you will discover amazing facts.
          I repeat once again that all the regulations and documents state that in the offensive the troops should have a threefold superiority, rather than in defense, it may follow that the cadre units of the Red Army, putting up heroically stubborn resistance to the enemy, even in encirclements and cauldrons, grinded the top, personnel.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 00: 20
            -10%
            Quote: Stroporez
            long ago after the war, military losses were recognized as 1: 1

            On the Russian Internet.
      2. Avior
        Avior 27 March 2021 23: 42
        0
        In the memoirs of the Italians, they write about such executions, from their memoirs it turns out that your grandmother's act was quite typical for that moment, they did not stand on ceremony with them, there was no time for that, the bitterness was strong, and there was no time to tinker.
        For example, there is a fairly well-known memoir by Corti "The Few Returned", which was reprinted many times, in which he writes about such cases during and after the Battle of Stalingrad.
        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/other/corti/index.html
        ... At the end of 1942, of all the prisoners, they systematically killed only Germans. As for the Italians, Hungarians and Romanians, regardless of whether they were clergy or not, they killed only those who could not walk, since the rest were driven on foot to the collection points on the banks of the Don. ... by the testimony of Mario Pedroni, junior lieutenant of the 81st Infantry Regiment. He was taken prisoner together with the 111th field hospital of the Torino division ... the seriously wounded were separated from the rest (there were about 150 of them), they were taken to the wall of some hut and shot. ... Everything happened very quickly and routinely .... About 30 officers and soldiers, who continued to lie in the hut, because they could not stand on their feet, were mercilessly killed, and the hut was set on fire ... the Russians lined up the rest of the prisoners in columns and drove to a concentration camp ...


        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/other/corti/app.html
        The intensity of hatred was very high, so it was not surprising.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 30 March 2021 06: 43
          +2
          He apparently wants to be pitied.
          1. Akuzenka
            Akuzenka 30 March 2021 17: 49
            0
            I agree, the Italian is lying. How many atrocities they committed, and then they began to lie that the Soviet beasts are even worse! It is a pity that they did not all become fertilizer for our fields. Then there would be no one to lie to.
      3. Barberry25
        Barberry25 29 March 2021 10: 01
        +1
        well, pedantry does not negate the fact that they changed the data.
    3. Zakirov Damir
      27 March 2021 23: 32
      +5
      Quote: Vladimir_2U

      Honestly, I did not understand by what logic the machine should be multiplied by three! With Overmans, the logic is clear.
      The fact that these Germans blatantly underestimated it is clear, the article is a plus.

      There is a topic "The real number of dead and died in captivity of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers." In it, in four ways, I go to the number 6 948 000. If you are interested, read the link:
      https://history-forum.ru/viewtopic.php?t=19208
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 06: 51
        0
        Quote: Damir Zakirov
        https://history-forum.ru/viewtopic.php?t=19208

        Well, why were you ashamed to show your brilliant methodology? Very in vain.

        1 METHOD. AT HITLER'S STATEMENT.

        Krivosheev has a quote in the paragraph "Human losses of the enemy":
        "Two months before his death, Hitler announced that Germany had lost 12.5 million soldiers, of which half were killed." Hitler himself said !!!

        2 METHOD. BY RATE OF LOSS REDUCTION.

        ~ 6 - the preliminary total number of deaths and deaths from injuries for the period 950 to 000 based on Hitler's statement

        For those who did not understand. The "source" is the same Hitler line to which the author adds his own considerations. Something like this:
        ~ 6 - the preliminary total number of deaths and deaths from injuries for the period 950 to 000 based on Hitler's statement
        MINUS
        1 - killed and died from wounds in the period from 052 to 000 overmans (1.1.1945 on the Eastern Front, 11.5.1945 on the Western Front)
        Total: 5 - fatalities and deaths from injuries in the land, air force, navy in the period from 898 to 000.

        And now the most interesting thing:
        5 898 000 - fatalities and deaths from injuries in the ground, air force, navy according to the preliminary data received in the period from 1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944;
        1 965 300 - killed and died from wounds in the Wehrmacht and the SS, Air Force, Navy according to Müller-Hillebrand in the period from 1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944 (see Appendix A, "German Land Army 1933 - 1945)
        Total: 5 898 000/1 965 300 = 3.001 068 539.

        For those in the tank. In his calculations of German losses for the PROOF of the coefficient 3 for the classics, the author ALREADY USES the coefficient 3 AS AN ALREADY PROVEN FACT. Such is the technical education of the author.
        3 METHOD. ON THE STATEMENT OF THE HEAD OF THE OPERATIONAL STAFF YODL.

        In Krivosheev's section “Human losses of the enemy” we find a quote: “After the end of the war, General Jodl said that the German army had lost a total of 12.4 million people, of which 2.5 million were killed, 3.4 million were missing and captured and 6.5 million . wounded, of which 12-15% did not return to service. "

        4 METHOD. ON OPEN FALSIFICATIONS MÜLLER - GILLEBRAND.

        The fourth, according to Müller-Hillebrand, is quite voluminous and more sophisticated, and I will not disclose it within the framework of the topic.


        To summarize. Against the lies of Goebbels, the author sang along with the divine revelation, revealed by the lips of three prophets - Hitler, Jodl and the author himself. Great company, great job.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          28 March 2021 14: 41
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Well, why were you ashamed to show your brilliant methodology? Very in vain.

          We did not let this topic go to the Military Review site, since it was already posted on another site. I tried twice.

          Quote: Cherry Nine
          For those in the tank. In his calculations of German losses for the PROOF of the coefficient 3 for the classics, the author ALREADY USES the coefficient 3 AS AN ALREADY PROVEN FACT. Such is the technical education of the author.


          The first way. According to Hitler.
          In it, by the calculation method, I go to 6:
          - according to Hitler's statement from the beginning of March 1945, I receive 6 "Killed";
          - then I give the calculation of the dead for the remaining period of March - May 1945 according to the loss of strategic operations. I get about 670, and on the Voennoye Obozreniye website I find "about 000 million" for the specified period;
          - I add up and get the preliminary number 6.

          Then I make the following calculation:
          - 6 total estimated death toll;
          - 2 the number of deaths according to Müller-Hillebrand on 230/324/30.4.1945;
          - 6 / 950 = 000.

          This coefficient indicates that there was a time point at which the coefficient was exactly three, that is, there is a purely technical understatement by three times, that is, forgery! According to Müller-Hillebrand, 1944% of the losses can be attributed to "the specifics of German multichannel accounting, violation of accounting at the turn of 45-1945 and incompleteness of data for 30", but not threefold spacing!

          I explain.
          Consider the data on the Red Army (the principle of analogies on large numbers). The total number of servicemen classified under the "Killed" article is 7, which are divided into six sub-items:

          -5 226 800 (70.89%) "Killed on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation" (1st sub-article of Krivosheev)
          - 1 102 800 (14.96%) "Died in the rear hospitals" (2nd sub-article of Krivosheev);
          - 555 (500%) "Died from diseases, who died from careless handling of military equipment and ammunition, shot by the court of a military tribunal" (7.53rd, 3th, 4th subarticles of Krivosheev);
          - 488 (000%) "Servicemen, about whom no information was revealed during the investigative, post-war work of the NKVD" (killed in the encirclement; the forty-first encirclement, who switched to guerrilla tactics and died before the registration of partisan detachments was introduced; direct hit by large-caliber shells and aerial bombs - nothing remains of a person) (6.62th sub-article, my meaning, revealed by the falsification of Krivosheev).

          Thus, those who do not fall into the first sub-article, "Those who died on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation," make up 29.11%. According to the analogy and large numbers, according to the Wehrmacht, about 30% should also fall out of the "Killed", based on the specifics of the German accounting, taking into account only "Killed only on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation." We are observing a THREE TIME SPACE, and any analyst will understand that this is a blatant forgery!

          Further, I hypothesize that the time point, where the coefficient was exactly three, is 31.12.1944/1945/XNUMX. It is here that "the notorious failure of the German accounting and the incompleteness of the German data for XNUMX" occurs.
          6 estimated value of "Killed"
          minus
          1 killed by Overmans in 052
          Total 5 Killed as of 898/000/31.12.1945 calculated value

          Next:
          5 "Killed" as of 898/000/31.12.1945 by calculated value
          1 965 324 "Killed" according to M-Gillebrand
          5 / 898 = 000 !!!

          I ADVANCED THE HYPOTHESIS AND RECEIVED CONFIRMATION! Well, after all, it is obvious that the coefficient of underestimation was exactly three, otherwise, doubters, it would be nice to explain such a jewelry coincidence.

          Then I make a correction:
          1 965 324 * 3 = 5 895 972 "Killed" as of 31.12.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX
          plus
          1 052 000 0 "Killed" for 1945 by Overmans
          Total: ~ 6 total death toll.

          Third way. According to Jodl.
          “General Jodl, after the end of the war, said that the German army lost a total of 12.4 million people, of which 2.5 million were killed, 3.4 million were missing and captured and 6.5 million were wounded, of which 12-15% did not return to build. "

          Using the received balance sheet items, I lay out its data, NOT knowing the number of victims.

          "6 wounded":
          - 2 310 100 "Disabled";
          - 153 "Not found deserters and convicts";
          - 3 046 700 "Prisoners on 30.4.1945 on both fronts";
          - 990 200 is an unknown number.

          And now I add:
          2 killed
          plus
          3 million missing
          plus
          990 200 unknown number
          плюсы
          the difference between 12 and 457 in 900 dead after 12/400/000
          Total 6 948 100 !!!
          Once again, it would be nice to explain this coincidence!

          It is clear that the numbers 2, 500, 3 are the dead and we will deal with the unknown number. We connect the principle of analogies on large numbers and get:
          1 102 800/7 373 100 = 14.95% for the Red Army;
          990 200 / (2 500 000 killed + 3 400 000 missing + 990 200) = 14.37% for the Wehrmacht.
          These are those who died from wounds in hospitals - "Loss of the reserve army"!

          990 / 200 = 6% and we read the phrase from the quote “of which 500-000% did not return to duty.” Those who died from injuries in the rear hospitals are difficult to return to duty.

          4 method according to M-Gillebrand.
          We use the resulting balance and determine the upper bar of irrecoverable losses:
          20 300 900 mobilized citizens of Germany, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich
          minus
          2 "demobilized as unfit for combatant"
          minus
          700 "Injured in hospitals on 000/30.4.1945/XNUMX
          minus
          438 "Commissioned for chronic diseases with exclusion from the account"
          mine
          4 "Surrendered"
          Total: 13.

          13 are irrecoverable losses under four items
          minus
          605 "Prisoners on the Eastern Front after 000/30.4.1945/XNUMX"
          minus
          2 "All killed on 230/300/30.4.1945" according to M-Gillebrand
          minus
          2 870 400 "All prisoners on both fronts on 30.4.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX"
          minus according to M-Hillebrand
          minus
          2 310 100 "All disabled people as of 30.4.1945" according to M-Gillebrand
          minus
          153 "Not found deserters and convicts"
          In total, 4 is an unknown remainder, which YOU WILL NOT SEE TO ANY OF THE SEVEN ARTICLES, EXCEPT THE DEATH!

          Then he uses a technique that I called "Dual-use number" - this is when the largest fraud is halved and placed in different parts. One unit, 2 dead, he places in the number 447 "In service on 000/7/590", the second part in the block of irrecoverable losses and carries out a stunning manipulation, underestimating this block to the form set forth in Appendix A.
          The same technique was used by the commissions of the Gorbachev Commission of the ADH and Rüdiger Overmans with 3 "Surrendered", taking into account again 405 and "As captured in the course of hostilities."

          Now you understand the principle of detecting falsifications? We reveal a chain of jewelry coincidences, which can hardly be called anything other than a well-built system of falsifications. This chain allows you to identify all eight balance items mobilized in the Wehrmacht and the SS. Eight items of the balance make it possible to unambiguously identify two items in relation to which so many copies have been broken - "Killed" and "Captured in the course of hostilities".
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 29 March 2021 00: 34
            +3
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            The first way. According to Hitler.

            Did it really not occur to you that the Fuehrer, even in his best years, was inaccurate in details, and to refer to his statements from the spring of 45 is somewhat strange at all? By the way, you conducted your ingenious research based on the results of reading one of Krivosheev's books, did I get it right?
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            according to the loss of strategic operations

            Yes, I appreciated.
            Although Wikipedia lists ridiculous numbers, the genius of defense Model was not the man to surrender his army of 430 thousand for several thousand killed. Moreover, with the fall of the Ruhr industrial area, the second most important after the fall of the Silesian industrial area on the Eastern Front, the further ability to resist was determined by two or three weeks (there is still enough weapons and equipment, but ammunition and fuel are already in short supply).
            It is not for nothing that, due to the fierceness, intensity of battles and losses on both sides, the allies call the Ruhr operation the Second Stalingrad and the largest battle on the entire Eastern Front from 1.9.1939 to 30.4.1945 (of course not our Stalingrad in scale, but for them yes). Therefore, the approach is simple - there were 430 thousand, 325 thousand were taken prisoner by M-Gillebrand, 105 were killed.

            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            We are observing a THREE TIME SPACE, and any analyst will understand that this is a blatant forgery!

            A threefold difference between the figure you have taken, allegedly named by Hitler, and the figure of historians.
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            it would be nice to explain such a jewelry coincidence.

            Do historians take data from the same archives, in which Hitler's unpublished memoirs do not appear? No, won't it?
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            Using the received balance sheet items, I decompose its data

            Do you take the figure of demographic losses invented by you, from which you subtract the Jodl figures that you twisted, considering all of them correct, except for the killed?
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            Once again, it would be nice to explain this coincidence!

            Do not misinterpret Jodl's numbers?
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            20 mobilized citizens of Germany, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside of the Third Reich ... Total, 300 is an unknown remnant, which YOU WILL NOT COME TO ANY OF THE SEVEN ARTICLES EXCEPT THE DEAD!

            How much capslock. And why such bloodthirstiness? Why don't they, I don't know, dismiss them home? Especially, for example, the units sitting in Bavaria, with which no one is at war? Any air defense personnel with Volkssturm in the cities? And even more so "outside the Third Reich"?
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            Now you understand the principle of detecting falsifications?

            Of course I understand. You have read the book by Krivosheev, who has seven-digit holes in Soviet losses, and in general an amateur in the case of the Germans, and, enriched with this knowledge, refute the basic fundamental German works on WWII.
            1. Zakirov Damir
              29 March 2021 02: 29
              -2
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Did it really not occur to you that the Fuehrer, even in his best years, was inaccurate in details, and to refer to his statements from the spring of 45 is somewhat strange at all?

              Following your logic, did he overestimate the losses of the Wehrmacht in March 70? Explain why the first man of the Third Reich needed this? Wasn't it time to explain to the German people why, with such small losses of the Wehrmacht, according to Goebbels' propaganda throughout the war, Volkssturmists and Hitler Youth went into action, and Soviet troops were stationed XNUMX km from Berlin?

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              By the way, you conducted your ingenious research based on the results of reading one of Krivosheev's books, did I get it right?

              No, I also read a book by M-Gillebrand, the works of the historian Viktor Zemskov on repatriation and the Gulag, as well as everything that I found according to Rüdiger Overmans in Russian translation. Do you see a bunch of these sources?

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Three-fold spread between the figure you have taken, allegedly named by Hitler, and the figure of historians


              Are you a stickler for archives, archives only and archives exclusively?

              70-80% of intelligence information is obtained on the basis of analysis of generally known information available to everyone. If you do not have analytical thinking and a discursive approach at all, then I can not help you. This is, in principle, the problem of humanitarian education, so you are not the first.

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Do you take the figure of demographic losses invented by you, from which you subtract the Jodl figures that you twisted, considering all of them correct, except for the killed?

              Reread the previous post again. If the upper ceiling of irrecoverable losses is 13, then from what fright, 062 may include 900 sanitary losses, which are not irrecoverable and must lie in the range 12 - 400, that is, in excess of irrecoverable ones.

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Do not misinterpret Jodl's numbers?

              I am not misrepresenting, but decomposing 12 into the components of irrecoverable losses, according to the balance obtained earlier, and again I get 400 dead. This is called a discursive approach - using previously obtained data.

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              How much capslock. And why such bloodthirstiness? Why don't they, I don't know, dismiss them home? Especially, for example, the units sitting in Bavaria, with which no one is at war?

              The Bavarians are among the 4 who surrendered, and 100 who surrendered, in turn, in the range of 000 - 4. The Anglo-Saxons, for your information, took the guys in the period 100-000
              They cannot enter the unknown remainder of 4, which lies in the range 894-000.


              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Of course I understand. You have read the book of Krivosheev, who has seven-digit holes for Soviet losses, but for the Germans he is generally an amateur, and, enriched with this knowledge, you refute the main fundamental German works on WWII

              Krivosheev is not your level at all. The book is called "The classified information has been removed" and it was removed, if you did not understand, back in 1993.

              Krivosheev hoped that an attentive reader:
              - will take into account the work of Viktor Zemskov on repatriation and the GULAG, published back in 1991;
              - decrypts Dalin's table;
              - will take into account the published data on prisoners of war in German, Finnish and Romanian captivity;
              - will take into account directly his work and about twenty stuffing that he left
              All the archives of the Ministry of Defense, after that, are disclosed with an accuracy of one hundred people.

              Who knew that history dilettantes at all levels would begin to build their guesses about "the millions of victims hidden by Krivosheev." He certainly could not have imagined such idiocy when he published his work.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 29 March 2021 06: 56
                +2
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                Following your logic, did he overestimate the losses of the Wehrmacht in March XNUMX?

                Following my logic, Hitler was a liar even in the 30s, and his statements from the spring of 45 are of interest to psychiatrists, but not to historians. Man already considered himself a theatrical character.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                Do you see a bunch of these sources?

                No. Since you have arbitrarily identified Krivosheev as the "correct" source, who is nobody in this matter.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                If you do not have analytical thinking and a discursive approach at all, then I can not help you.

                Yes, you definitely do not need help from you.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                This is, in principle, the problem of humanitarian education, so you are not the first.

                Yeah, your visits to technical education immediately remind Acad. Fomenko, unforgettable.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                If the upper ceiling of irrecoverable losses 13 062 900

                Which is installed by whom, by you?
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                I am not misrepresenting, but decomposing 12 into the components of irrecoverable losses, according to the balance obtained earlier, and again I get 400 dead.

                Of course you are misleading. Your prisoners are somehow deducted from the wounded. This is not to mention the fact that Jodl is also not a historical source. The whole memoir is not, and you have a completely casually thrown phrase.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                Krivosheev is not your level at all.

                No not my. Questions to Krivosheev were immediately after the publication. But, alas, this is probably the first and last systematic work on Soviet losses. Not the most popular topic.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                Krivosheev hoped that an attentive reader:

                What Krivosheev was counting on, he wrote. Your considerations that he actually meant, only you are interested.
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                "millions of dead, hidden by Krivosheev"

                The main complaints that I saw against Krivosheev boiled down to cheating between the categories of losses. He overestimates the peacekeepers and underestimates the military.
              2. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 31 March 2021 15: 15
                0
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                Are you a stickler for archives, archives only and archives exclusively?


                You are ignorant.
                At least we got acquainted with what is recognized in history as a fact - only documents and their analysis, no statements of interested parties are taken into consideration.
                1. Zakirov Damir
                  31 March 2021 22: 43
                  0
                  Müller-Hillebrand wrote his book from the archives. Accordingly, revealing the falsifications, we go to the closed archives of the Bundeswehr. The idea is as simple as two or two, what is incomprehensible?

                  Why should I reinvent the wheel - sorting through scattered, far from incomplete and dubious archival data. It's easier for me to take the fundamental work of the author and, revealing all the forgeries, go to the real archives. This is not available to you, but not to me!

                  And your statements are well known to me. Such adherents of the "correct historical approach". But I am not writing a story, but I am revealing the SYSTEM OF FALSIFICATIONS OF THE BASIC FUNDAMENTAL LABOR FOR LOSSES OF THE VERMACHT. Therefore, I have my own approach, analytical, incomprehensible to you.

                  The fact that Enigma was opened analytically, according to a system incomprehensible to many, did not diminish the importance of the final result. And my analytics will be available to many, and therefore understandable. And when we touch it, then we'll see which of us is ignorant
          2. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 31 March 2021 15: 10
            0
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            - according to Hitler's statement from the beginning of March 1945, I receive 6 "Killed";


            Believe Hitler?
            This is something new in historical science, historians believe only in documents, and not in the statements of historical figures - why on earth can this figure be taken on faith, you naive author.
            1. Zakirov Damir
              31 March 2021 22: 52
              0
              First, explain the triple underreporting factor of 3.001 on 31.12.1944/1945/XNUMX, which pops up on the basis of Hitler's statement, data from Rüdiger Overmans for XNUMX and data from Müller-Hillebrand himself. Hitler's statement only accelerates the process of identifying this coefficient.
              When you explain, then I will believe in my naivety.
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 28 March 2021 09: 08
        0
        Quote: Damir Zakirov
        There is a topic "The real number of dead and died in captivity of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers." In it, in four ways, I go to the number 6 948 000. If you are interested, read the link:
        https://history-forum.ru/viewtopic.php?t=19208

        Thank you, I'll start.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          28 March 2021 14: 45
          0
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Thank you, I'll start.

          Read my answer to user "cherry nine" next to your answer. It will make it possible to more clarify what was read in the topic "The real number of dead and died in captivity of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers"
      3. Kuroneko
        Kuroneko 29 March 2021 14: 17
        0
        Damir, I have a question for you - did you somehow take into account the partisans? They do not pass through the military department as soldiers of the Red Army. Those. formally it is "shpaki". And the partisan movement made a huge contribution to the destruction of the enemy's forces.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          29 March 2021 14: 45
          0
          Quote: Kuroneko
          Damir, I have a question for you - did you somehow take into account the partisans? They do not pass through the military department as soldiers of the Red Army. Those. formally it is "shpaki". And the partisan movement made a huge contribution to the destruction of the enemy's forces.

          Only those who fought at the front on both sides. The partisans were not counted - approximately 492 dead, including 000 Red Army servicemen.

          Also, the losses of power structures in the occupied territories of the USSR are not taken into account, namely:
          - GESTAPO, SD, military field police on the territory of the USSR from citizens of Germany, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich (57 prisoners of war and about 300 dead);
          - Soviet collaborators in military formations outside the Wehrmacht, in police formations (60 438 captured police officers and about 173 900 killed in both formations).
          1. Kuroneko
            Kuroneko 29 March 2021 15: 00
            0
            Thanks. Then I just do not understand why the Volkssturm was taken into account, tk. this is also "shpaki".
            1. Zakirov Damir
              29 March 2021 15: 27
              0
              Quote: Kuroneko
              Thanks. Then I just do not understand why the Volkssturm was taken into account, tk. this is also "shpaki".

              On our side, the "people's militia" was taken into account, and on the enemy's side, the Volkssturm is an analogue of our "people's militia".
              1. Kuroneko
                Kuroneko 29 March 2021 15: 48
                0
                And the partisans - it turns out - NOT part of the people's militia? Have you said before that they were not taken into account? Understand, I am not nagging, but by education I am also a mathematician, and I am looking for logic in calculations.
                1. Zakirov Damir
                  29 March 2021 18: 16
                  0
                  Quote: Kuroneko
                  And the partisans - it turns out - NOT part of the people's militia? Have you said before that they were not taken into account? Understand, I am not nagging, but by education I am also a mathematician, and I am looking for logic in calculations.

                  It will be clearer if I quote part of the text from the topic "The ratio of losses of the parties in the Great Patriotic War."
                  All four groups listed below are included in the military losses of the USSR Armed Forces and the military losses of the Opponent's Armed Forces. Therefore, when determining the ratio of losses, it is necessary to take into account "All against all".

                  PART 1. EQUILIBRIUM LINKS OF THE USSR AF AND THE OPPONENT'S AF.

                  During the Great Patriotic War, formations were involved from both sides, which I defined as equilibrium.
                  To begin with, I will give a definition of equilibrium.

                  Equilibrium compounds are compounds that have:
                  1. Approximately the same level of weapons.
                  2. Approximately equal combat capability.
                  3. Same functionality.

                  I have identified four groups and named them as follows.
                  1. The regular army.
                  2. Volunteers.
                  3. Bandits (well, I couldn't find another name).
                  4. Employees.
                  Now let's look at all the groups in detail.

                  GROUP "REGULAR ARMY".

                  This group includes: 
                  - from the side of the USSR Armed Forces, the Red Army;
                  - on the part of the enemy's armed forces, the Wehrmacht and ss, Germany's allies.

                  1. Armament: small arms, guns, armored vehicles, aviation, air defense systems, the navy.
                  2. Combat capability: military personnel had a sufficient level of military training to participate in hostilities.
                  3. Function: were the main participants in hostilities, fought directly at the front and made a decisive contribution to the destruction of the enemy.
                  4. Theater of military operations and time: the European territory of the USSR, the countries of Eastern and Central Europe in the period from 22.6.1941 - 11.5.1945.

                  GROUP "VOLUNTEERS".

                  On the part of the USSR Armed Forces, the XNUMXst People's Militia, which includes:
                  - the popular militia of the Soviet cities;
                  —Fighter battalions.
                  - battalions of local militia and local air defense.
                  On the part of the Opponent's Armed Forces:
                  - Volkssturm, Hitler Youth.

                  1. Armament: mainly small arms and minimal anti-tank weapons.
                  2. Combat efficiency: they had an insufficient level of military training to participate in direct combat operations, a low level of combat effectiveness.
                  3. Function: to close the shortage in the manpower of the regular army, gaps in the defensive line at a critical moment for the country.
                  4. Theater of military operations:
                  —The territory of the USSR, mainly July-November 1941 for the militia;
                  —The territory of Hungary, Austria, Poland (Breslau), East Prussia, Germany from November 1944 to May 1945 for the Volkssturm.

                  GROUP "BANDITS".

                  From the side of the USSR Armed Forces:
                  --partisans and underground fighters;
                  - sabotage groups of the NKVD, abandoned behind enemy lines;
                  --RKKA servicemen and militias who successfully escaped from captivity;
                  - deserted Soviet collaborators from the Wehrmacht and SS, from military units outside the Wehrmacht and police formations.
                  On the part of the Opponent's Armed Forces:
                  --GESTAPO;
                  - SD security service;
                  - military - field police;
                  --Soviet collaborators from among the soldiers of the Red Army and citizens of the USSR in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and in police formations.

                  1. Armament: mainly small arms.
                  2. Combat efficiency: insufficient level of military training, low level of combat effectiveness relative to the regular army.
                  3. Function: 
                  - on the part of the USSR Armed Forces, violation of transport communications, destruction of warehouses, equipment and manpower of the enemy, obstruction of the resumption of industrial production in the occupied territory;
                  - on the part of the enemy's armed forces, maintaining order in the occupied territories, safeguarding transport communications and warehouses, suppressing acts of sabotage by the civilian population.
                  4. Theater of military operations: European territory of the USSR from 22.4.1941 to August 1944.

                  Partisans and underground fighters had the German classification "Bandits". And who is the opposing side for the terror organized in the occupied territory against the civilian population? That is why the name for everyone comes from here.

                  GROUP "EMPLOYEE".
                  On the part of the USSR "Workers of civilian departments allocated to special formations to meet the needs of the army":
                  - workers of automobile and railway transport;
                  - employees of the river and sea civil fleet;
                  - employees of the Ministry of Civil Engineering and unarmed militias taken on the construction of defensive structures;
                  - employees of the Ministry of Health and Communications;
                  .
                  On the part of the enemy's aircraft, the following connections were lost:
                  - Imperial Railways Service;
                  - Imperial Labor Service;
                  - Todt's construction organization.

                  1. Armament: absent.
                  2. Combat efficiency: lack of a level of military training for participation in direct hostilities.
                  3. Function:
                  - on the part of the USSR Armed Forces, additional provision of the army's needs with qualified personnel;
                  - on the part of the enemy's armed forces, additional provision of the needs of the army with qualified personnel and training in the initial military skills of the young replenishment.
                  4. Theater of war and time: 
                  - from the side of the USSR Armed Forces, the European part of the USSR, the countries of Eastern and Central Europe from 22.6.1941/11.5.1945/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX;
                  - from the side of the enemy's armed forces the territory of the Reich, the occupied territories of Europe from 1.9.1939 to 11.5.1945.
      4. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 31 March 2021 15: 06
        0
        Quote: Damir Zakirov
        There is a topic "The real number of dead and died in captivity of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers." In it, in four ways, I go to the number 6 948 000. If you are interested, read the link:


        There is the only correct way to calculate - to sit in the archives and meticulously take into account the losses in the reports.
        Your methods of statistics do not inspire the slightest confidence, and historians have nothing but laughter.
    4. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 00: 19
      0
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Honestly, I did not understand by what logic the machine should be multiplied by three!

      The author is the most alternative friend that I have come across to date. You rarely see such clarity. He brought the German falsifiers out into the open, well done.
    5. Jura 27
      Jura 27 28 March 2021 07: 28
      +1
      The author’s balance does not agree, moreover, for several million in the losses of the USSR.
      The author writes that the casualties were 7,8 million (3,9 + 0,4 + 3,5), and 5,9 million prisoners.
      In fact, there were 3,465 million people with disabilities and commissions; 0,14 million were shot by the tribunals, 0,44 million were convicted and sent to the camps, about 0,25 million remained in the west, 0,212 million were not found deserters (all this as of 01.07.45).
      As of 01.07.45, the USSR Armed Forces numbered 12,84 million, of which about 0,9 million were released prisoners, without whom 11,94 million were left.
      We subtract 34,476 million prisoners from the 22.06.41 million mobilized during the entire war (including those in the Armed Forces on 5,9/28,576/XNUMX) (to exclude their influence on the overall picture), we get XNUMX million.
      From the last figure, we subtract 11,94 million servicemen as of 01.07.45/0.1/7,8 (without those called up after captivity), shot, convicted, disabled and commissioned, demobilized into industry (4,229 million), as well as the amount of casualties indicated by the author of the post (XNUMX million .) and we get XNUMX million people unaccounted for by Damir.
      Where did you lose more than four million people mobilized in the USSR Armed Forces, and Comrade Zakirov?
      If we add these almost 4,3 million to the 7,8 million killed at the front, according to the author of the post, we get 12,1 million killed. Which leads to a ratio of killed more than two to one in favor of the GG.
      By the way, according to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 12,7 million dead are named by name in their archives, the reconciliation of the latter and the exclusion of double and triple counts was done for the 75th anniversary of the Victory and was announced on TV. These are only those for whom there are documents.
    6. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 28 March 2021 19: 58
      0
      But I didn’t understand, did the Germans forget how to fight sharply in 1943, or did the losses in defense exceed losses in the offensive?
      1. Zakirov Damir
        29 March 2021 00: 08
        0
        Quote: Pilat2009
        But I didn’t understand, did the Germans forget how to fight sharply in 1943, or did the losses in defense exceed losses in the offensive?

        The average coefficient is taken for the period June 1941-June 1943, for the soldiers of the Red Army and the militia on the one hand against the Wehrmacht and the military SS, Germany's allies on the other. It is 2.5: 1 in favor of the opponent.

        The averaged coefficient for the period July 1943 - May 1945 is also taken and it is 0.55: 1, but in favor of the USSR.
        The enemy of the Red Army in this period is the Wehrmacht and the military SS, the allies of Germany, the Volkssturmists.
        If we take the boundaries of the interval, then the ratio of losses is 1: 1 in July 1943 (loss parity) and 4: 1 in January - May 1945 in favor of the USSR (blitzkrieg forty-fifth). The transition from 1: 1 to 4: 1 is gradual, not stepwise!
      2. chenia
        chenia 29 March 2021 08: 32
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Or are losses in defense greater than losses in an offensive?

        More, if you do not start a timely withdrawal (which the Germans did better than ours).

        An offensive against a defending enemy, and in particular a breakthrough, is one thing.
        And on the retreating (pursuit), when he (having left a small barrier), climbed out of the land and ticks to the intermediate line (and there partially our formations of the development of success are already there - so a blow to the flanks and rear is guaranteed there). And to attack the enemy in an open field until he reaches this line, dismembering him is a sacred cause.
        And here the ratio changes dramatically.
  2. tatra
    tatra 27 March 2021 15: 26
    +3
    Always in world history, opponents fighting against each other tried to minimize their losses, and exaggerate the losses of the enemy. BUT just not an anomaly of humanity - the enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR, who, starting with their Perestroika, are trying to exaggerate the losses of their country in the Great Patriotic War, and play down the losses of the Hitlerite coalition that attacked the USSR.
    1. evgen1221
      evgen1221 27 March 2021 17: 28
      +6
      This is the politics and conjuncture of this or that moment. In any case, with our guianist mentality, our losses will be greater. After all, we tried to protect a stranger in every possible way at the cost of our losses, which was never a principle in Europe in relation to our citizens. Our territory is too large and frightening in size in the eyes of Europeans, so they draw a purely logical conclusion - the more Russians die, the easier.
      1. Civil
        Civil 27 March 2021 17: 47
        -1
        After all, we tried to protect a stranger in every possible way at the cost of our losses, which has never been a principle in Europe in relation to our citizens.

        The history is written by the winners.
        "Mirnyak" in war is like furniture and dishes during a fight, it's a pity, but no one pays attention to the end of the carnage. The same "peace man" saw your supposedly righteous wars in his grave.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 29 March 2021 14: 58
        +2
        Quote: evgen1221
        After all, we tried to protect a stranger in every possible way at the cost of our losses, which has never been a principle in Europe in relation to our citizens.

        As for the protection of the peaceful population, it is necessary to clearly separate the prohibition of the targeted destruction of civilians from the reduction of civilian casualties during the conduct of hostilities in the areas inhabited by this population.
        The first in the Red Army was 146%.
        The second was carried out as far as possible, the primary one was saving the lives of our servicemen, who by the end of the war (when we just began to meet an enemy civilian) were sorely lacking. As a result, in urban battles they did not hesitate in means - 8 "howitzers were the norm, and in some places it reached 11" and 12 ". Engineers did not lag behind - in Berlin, assault troops went" in azimuth ", undermining the walls of houses on They did not spare explosives - to prevent German sabotage groups from entering the rear of the 29th Guards SK, sappers of the 2nd Shisbr blew up the S-Bahn tunnel under the Landwehrkanal, dragging a charge of 1,8 tons into it.
        The apogee was Koenigsberg, which was filled with shells and bombs "in general", and the survivors were dismantled into servicemen and civilians only at the collection points for prisoners of war.
    2. Hagen
      Hagen 28 March 2021 11: 49
      +3
      Quote: tatra
      enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR, who, starting with their Perestroika, are trying to exaggerate the losses of their country in the Great Patriotic War, and play down the losses of the Hitlerite coalition that attacked the USSR.

      If you risk getting carried away by the history of the issue, then you may suddenly find that the numbers of spacecraft losses began to grow even during the Soviet era. In the early 50s, it was about 16 million, under Khrushchev it grew to 20 million, under Gorbachev - up to 27. Something stuck you on the "enemies of the communists." There is no such comment of yours that this category of citizens - "enemies of the communists" was not mentioned. Would you describe in detail what kind of people they are? How do they differ from other members of the CPSU of the 60s and 80s? What is their share in the total mass of members of the CPSU? And then more and more it resembles paranoia.
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 28 March 2021 20: 00
        0
        Quote: Hagen
        And then more and more it resembles paranoia.

        Read the trend to rewrite history
  3. rocket757
    rocket757 27 March 2021 15: 29
    0
    Heavy arithmetic.
    That would be to remind everyone in gayrope how it actually turns out, and not in the bravura plans of their politicians, the military.
  4. Flooding
    Flooding 27 March 2021 15: 37
    +2
    I know for sure that the fairest arithmetic is how many fascists came to our land, so much remains in it
    but real life, unfortunately, has little to do with justice
  5. ccsr
    ccsr 27 March 2021 15: 46
    +6
    The words of the author that everything should be increased threefold sound not entirely convincing, but the very formulation of the question is very interesting. If at least a more detailed article or even a book comes out, then probably its discussion can take place at once in several historical forums, where this issue has been repeatedly considered.
    I think the author will continue his research, or at least report where his work has already been discussed.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 00: 30
      0
      Quote: ccsr

      The words of the author that everything should be increased threefold sound not entirely convincing, but the very formulation of the question is very interesting. If at least a more detailed article or even a book comes out, then probably its discussion can take place at once in several historical forums, where this issue has been repeatedly considered.
      I think the author will continue his research, or at least report where his work has already been discussed.

      A little higher I left an answer on about the same question and a link to my own topic, where in four ways it turns out 6 "Dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS".
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 28 March 2021 10: 26
        0
        Quote: Damir Zakirov
        A little higher I left an answer on about the same question and a link to my own topic, where in four ways it turns out 6 "Dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS".

        The fact is that a link to a forum does not mean anything at all, because you can write anything there, and you cannot bear any responsibility for it. Answer more simply - do you have a monograph published on some OFFICIAL site, or in print media, so that you can understand how complete your work of authorship is. Maybe there is a book? And believe me, the point is not that you use four methods, but to what extent your calculation method does not contradict the generally recognized one, at least in our armed forces.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          28 March 2021 15: 42
          0
          Quote: ccsr
          The fact is that a link to a forum does not mean anything at all, because you can write anything there, and you cannot bear any responsibility for it.

          So far, this is the only site available. Sometimes it is an order of magnitude easier to identify fraud than to promote the results to a wide audience.

          Quote: ccsr
          Answer more simply - do you have a monograph published on some OFFICIAL site, or in print media, so that you can understand how complete your work of authorship is.

          Do you really think that someone will allow me to post the topic "Balance of those mobilized in the Red Army. Closed archives of the Ministry of Defense" on the official website? Don't be so naive!

          Quote: ccsr

          And believe me, the point is not that you use four methods, but to what extent your calculation method does not contradict the generally recognized one, at least in our armed forces.

          We are talking about opening a well-constructed system of falsifications of Müller-Hillebrand, which reveals a full eight-item balance, to which 21 mobilized were dispersed. We are talking about the analysis of fundamental work, and not about "adherence to the methodology for calculating the losses of the MO".
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 28 March 2021 16: 21
            -2
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            We are talking about opening a well-constructed system of falsifications of Mueller-Hillebrand,

            I have no doubt that there are falsifications in their work, which is not surprising for the vanquished, who somehow need to justify their defeat.
            But your analysis of the work does not yet inspire confidence, and different people point out to you about this. So I would like to know if your work will remain in the form of scattered texts on the forums, or you will still create a finished work, a link to which can be given on other sites.
            1. Zakirov Damir
              28 March 2021 17: 55
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              I have no doubt that there are falsifications in their work, which is not surprising for the vanquished, who somehow need to justify their defeat.

              This is not an initiative of the vanquished, but of their "overseas curators".
              Firstly, Müller-Hillebrand underestimates the real losses under the heading "Killed" to 2 in all three branches of the armed forces. In fact, he substantiated the data of Goebbels' propaganda with fundamental work, which voiced the losses of the Wehrmacht for its citizens during the war. Thus, he laid down the conditions for manipulating the ratio of losses in favor of Germany in multiples. And if not for the help of our allies, then we would have been simply knocked out with such proportions.

              Secondly, he indicates the number 7 "In service" on 590/000/30.4.1945, which has the following real content:
              - 4 "Surrendered" (100 on the Vostochny, 000 on the Vostochny after 391) - real data and were in service on 800;
              - 605 "Captives" before 000 on the Eastern Front - real data and were in service on 11.5.1945;
              - 2 "Killed" long ago is a forgery;
              - 438 for a long time "Commissioned for chronic diseases" - a forgery.
              Thus, he leaves a lot of groundwork for the manipulation of prisoners of war. After all, it is known that the USSR took reparations as prisoners of war, which means that the number of 605 captured and 000 surrendered was known. Accordingly, all the rest of the 391 fell into Anglo-Saxon captivity.

              41 years after the publication of the book by Müller-Hillebrand, in 1999, Overmans realized this groundwork. And let at least someone after that say about the decisive role of the USSR - 3 prisoners and captives who surrendered in Soviet captivity versus 177 prisoners and those who surrendered in captivity to the allies.

              Quote: ccsr
              But your analysis of the work does not yet inspire confidence, and different people point out to you about this. So I would like to know if your work will remain in the form of scattered texts on the forums, or you will still create a finished work, a link to which can be given on other sites.

              First, you need to provide the methodology itself. I plan to post such analytics in which the members of the Voennoye Obozreniye site themselves, as well as on three historical forums, will reveal all the falsifications. In other words, I will only indicate the quotes and tables where the next falsification lies, I will determine the sequence of actions, and the participants themselves will reveal it.
              Falsifications revealed personally will be better understood and well remembered. In particular, all the myths that are created on these, not yet identified, falsifications will be understood.
  6. iouris
    iouris 27 March 2021 15: 53
    -4
    In the period from 1939 to 1945, hostilities were very different in nature, so the statistical material is characterized by great heterogeneity. It is advisable to isolate and analyze different periods. I think that accounting for the losses of Hitler's allies on the Eastern Front is a certain problem.
    It should be noted that the concept of "cost" of a soldier (life) is an unscientific concept. The cost of a person's life for the state (side of the war) should be taken into account. If not, it's racism.
    1. Barmal
      Barmal 27 March 2021 19: 56
      +7
      the training of a serviceman has its own energy and resource costs. The author is talking about this as a mathematician, and not as a racist.
      1. iouris
        iouris 28 March 2021 17: 06
        0
        French Ambassador Palaeologus, demanding the Russian army to advance, just pointed out to Nicholas II that the human losses of France are incomparably higher, given the highest "cost" of the French soldier, while the Russian soldier had practically no value for the allies.
        1. Barmal
          Barmal 29 March 2021 22: 08
          0
          Well, let's compare the cost of pilot training resources and the cost of training an ordinary infantryman of the Second World War in the USSR. Does this bother you in any way? The French soldier doesn't bother me in any way. If N. 2 was led into such reasoning and admitted. that his slaves are cheaper than the slaves of France, then he has long disappointed me and this is only to him in the karma of losing the autocracy.
    2. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 01: 03
      +4
      Quote: iouris
      In the period from 1939 to 1945, hostilities were very different in nature, so the statistical material is characterized by great heterogeneity. It is advisable to isolate and analyze different periods. I think that accounting for the losses of Hitler's allies on the Eastern Front is a certain problem.

      Absolutely agree! If we take the Great Patriotic War, then I would single out five periods:
      1.German blitzkrieg, 22.6.1941 -5.12.1941 (the most severe losses of the Red Army due to prisoners of war with a comparable number of victims)
      2. fruitless attempts to return their territories after the success near Moscow, December 1941 - August 1942 (the most severe losses of the Red Army, now dead);
      3. fundamental changes in the war, September 1942 - August 1943 (this is where the Krivosheevsky ratio of losses of 1.3: 1 still appears in favor of Germany);
      4. complete superiority of the Red Army in the strategic initiative, September 1943 - December 1944 (the largest in terms of the number of Wehrmacht and SS losses, prisoners of war and dead; losses in favor of the Red Army);
      5. blitzkrieg forty-fifth, January 1945 - May 1945 (mirror image of the German blitzkrieg forty-first and the highest losses of the Wehrmacht from the loss / time ratio; multiple loss ratio in favor of the Red Army).
  7. Alien From
    Alien From 27 March 2021 15: 58
    +5
    One thing is clear! You need to find all your own!
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 28 March 2021 03: 48
      +2
      Quote: Alien From
      One thing is clear! You need to find all your own!

      Not always found. My grandfather, for example, was in the penal battalion for one day, he was wounded in the first attack. It was not on the lists, they did not have time to add it. And where he was before, he forgot the part number.
      1. Avior
        Avior 28 March 2021 06: 48
        0
        Have you tried to look at the site?
        https://pamyat-naroda.ru/?utm_source=podvig_lnk
        Unlike the base of the People's Feat, there are documents here not only for awards, but also for the passage of service. It is quite possible that your grandfather will be found in the lists of the part in which he was before, or some other documents will come up.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 28 March 2021 08: 28
          +1
          Quote: Avior
          It is quite possible that your grandfather will be found in the lists of the part in which he was before, or some other documents will come up.

          There is no nifig. They wrote to the Ministry of Defense back in the 90s, it does not appear on the lists.
          1. Avior
            Avior 28 March 2021 08: 46
            +2
            Got it, I sympathize
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 28 March 2021 08: 48
              +2
              My grandfather is on the right.
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 28 March 2021 20: 24
      +1
      Quote: Alien From
      One thing is clear! You need to find all your own!

      For such a long time there has been an electronic card index of the dead, and there are 19 million names there.
      1. Zakirov Damir
        29 March 2021 00: 42
        0
        Quote: Pilat2009
        For such a long time there has been an electronic card index of the dead, and there are 19 million names there.

        These are the figures of the deputy Zemtsov, who pushed 19 million dead soldiers of the Red Army and 24 million dead civilians through the State Duma in 2017. Have you tried to think on your own?

        The losses of the Red Army were:
        6 885 100 "Officially recorded dead";
        488 "Disappeared following the results of post-war investigative work of the NKVD, SMERSH, MGB";
        2 - "Killed from 000 released prisoners of war, recruited from 141 to 300";
        114 200 - "Prisoners of war and deserters who successfully escaped from the enemy ranks, who died in the partisan movement of the USSR and Europe";
        2 - servicemen of the Red Army who died in captivity (625 in German, 400 in Finnish, 2 in Romanian);
        Total: 10 114 700 killed and died in captivity of the RKKA servicemen.

        Another 444 perished in the Wehrmacht and the military SS, in military formations outside the Wehrmacht, in police formations, including about 100 of the 100 Krivosheevskies, who were captured and shot by a military tribunal.
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 29 March 2021 07: 46
          0
          Quote: Zakirov Damir
          Quote: Pilat2009
          For such a long time there has been an electronic card index of the dead, and there are 19 million names there.

          These are the figures of the deputy Zemtsov, who pushed 19 million dead soldiers of the Red Army and 24 million dead civilians through the State Duma in 2017. Have you tried to think on your own?

          The losses of the Red Army were:
          6 885 100 "Officially recorded dead";
          488 "Disappeared following the results of post-war investigative work of the NKVD, SMERSH, MGB";
          2 - "Killed from 000 released prisoners of war, recruited from 141 to 300";
          114 200 - "Prisoners of war and deserters who successfully escaped from the enemy ranks, who died in the partisan movement of the USSR and Europe";
          2 - servicemen of the Red Army who died in captivity (625 in German, 400 in Finnish, 2 in Romanian);
          Total: 10 114 700 killed and died in captivity of the RKKA servicemen.

          Another 444 perished in the Wehrmacht and the military SS, in military formations outside the Wehrmacht, in police formations, including about 100 of the 100 Krivosheevskies, who were captured and shot by a military tribunal.

          What does Zemtsov have to do with it if I'm talking about the electronic archive of my Memorial
      2. Alien From
        Alien From 29 March 2021 11: 16
        +2
        There is. And then there are the graves of the unknown SOLDIER! (emotions). Not trolling.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          29 March 2021 13: 17
          +1
          Quote: Alien From
          There is. And then there are the graves of the unknown SOLDIER! (emotions). Not trolling.

          Trolling is more than appropriate here, since the opponent has no logic at all.

          In the total number of mobilized 34 476 700 three trains were taken into account:
          1.approximately 32 million are the servicemen of the Red Army,
          2. Citizens of the USSR, called up and replenished the troops and organs of the NKVD, border troops;
          3. employees of civilian departments allocated to special forces to meet the needs of the army (railroad workers, motorists, employees of the river and sea civil fleet, medical personnel for hospitals from the Ministry of Health, employees from the Ministry of Communications, civil construction workers; .403 on the balance, and about 200 dead, 1.7.1945 dead in German captivity, as well as those who agreed to cooperate with the German administration in article 65 "Aimed at replenishing the troops and bodies of the NKVD, other special formations)

          And then, we carry out elementary calculations:
          32 500 000
          minus
          11 390 600 servicemen under the article "In the ranks"
          minus
          1 servicemen under the article "In hospitals"
          minus
          about 1 who joined the Wehrmacht and SS, into military units outside the Wehrmacht, into police formations
          Total: 19 servicemen under the heading "Fatalities", as well as "Dead in captivity".

          And where are the other five balance sheet items, according to which the soldiers of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht were out of action:
          1. "Recognized as unfit for combat due to two or more wounds and demobilized into industry, paramilitary guards; demobilized due to scarce working specialties (3), as well as demobilized during the war years after the age of conscripts (614)
          2. "Commissioned due to received chronic diseases" (747 400)
          3. "Commissioned for disability as a result of injuries, contusions, burns and frostbite" (2);
          4. "Not found deserters, as well as convicted and sent to places of detention" (212 400 + 62 300);
          5. "Captives during hostilities" who survived in captivity until liberation (1 who returned to the USSR and 518 emigrated)

          The Wehrmacht and the SS were at odds on eight articles, and the soldiers of the Red Army, if you follow the electronic database of 19 million "dead and dead in captivity", only on three balance items. Here are the unlucky ones!
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 29 March 2021 15: 07
        0
        Quote: Pilat2009
        For such a long time there has been an electronic card index of the dead, and there are 19 million names there.

        There are 19 million entries. Some of which are duplicated 2-3-4 times - due to errors in writing the full name, dates of birth, place of birth, etc. the same person can be recorded several times.
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 29 March 2021 20: 17
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Some of which are duplicated 2-3-4 times - due to errors in writing the full name, dates of birth, place of birth, etc. the same person can be recorded several times.

          Well, you can confuse 1904 and 1917. The data were recorded by apparently deaf and dumb
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 30 March 2021 10: 35
            0
            Quote: Pilat2009
            Well, you can confuse 1904 and 1917. The data were recorded by apparently deaf and dumb

            So this is not a passport office. The data was recorded 80 years ago - on what was, what was, and those people who were. Wrapping paper written in pencil in the handwriting of a seasoned doctor is still a good quality. smile
            Pomnitz, Mehlis in 1940 asked to send him literate people. For it was impossible to understand the protocols that were written by the locally available personnel.
  8. Cheerock
    Cheerock 27 March 2021 15: 59
    +10
    Well, according to the results of the recalculation in 2015, it comes out 1.2-1.3 to one in direct combat losses.
    I read the memoirs of the Germans, but not those who looked at the maps in the headquarters, but those who looked through the sights in the field. They already in July 1941 understood that everything was going very badly for the Wehrmacht.
  9. paul3390
    paul3390 27 March 2021 16: 06
    +15
    Actually - if the grandfathers treated the German prisoners the same way they treated ours - so the ratio of losses would be soooo far in the Soviet favor .. At the end of the war, the Germans scored a fig. I’m not talking about the loss of civilian population. And the treatment of him .. How are they - and how we are. But the Soviet government was humane, it didn’t swear in revenge, and now they’re trying to poke us in the nose with this, like - how much evon have you lost, and how much we have ... Ugh ..
    1. Barmal
      Barmal 27 March 2021 19: 58
      0
      Koli - urin-goi to the same place.

    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 28 March 2021 03: 52
      -1
      Quote: paul3390
      Actually - if the grandfathers treated the German prisoners the same way they treated ours - the ratio of losses would be soooo far in the Soviet favor ...

      You know, my grandfather was in captivity. One Wehrmacht soldier boozed with him, another, an SS man, took him to execution, his grandfather got his head, they did not shoot him.
  10. steelmaker
    steelmaker 27 March 2021 16: 37
    +3
    And I made my conclusion long ago - there is no need to take enemies prisoner, to finish off, finish off and finish off again. And to restore the economy at the expense of the population of the occupied territory. Europe on the genetic level hate Russia and Russians. They quickly forget the good. Therefore, they do not deserve good !!!
    1. saigon
      saigon 27 March 2021 17: 40
      +6
      But you are wrong, you need to be taken prisoner, you need to tell how they will be fed, cured and protected in captivity.
      Why the hell would the enemy fight to the end, let them surrender.
  11. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 27 March 2021 16: 38
    +7
    = Irrecoverable losses of the parties from June 1941 to June 1943 (dead, disabled and prisoners of war) were:

    10,3 million soldiers of the Red Army (3,9 million dead, 1,3 million disabled, 5,1 million prisoners) plus 0,9 million militias (0,4 million dead, 0,5 million prisoners of war)
    против
    3,9 million Wehrmacht and SS troops (2,7 dead, 0,9 million disabled, 0,3 million prisoners of war) plus 0,6 million Germany's allies (dead and captured).

    Thus, the ratio of losses for the specified period:
    11,2 million: 4,5 million ~ 2,5: 1 in favor of Germany. =
    But in addition to the Wehrmacht and the SS troops, the armies of other states also fought against the Red Army.
    It is not clear why the author forgot about the soldiers and officers of the armies of Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, etc., killed during the same period? They also contributed to the losses of the Red Army.
    1. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 01: 11
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      10,3 million soldiers of the Red Army (3,9 million dead, 1,3 million disabled, 5,1 million prisoners) plus 0,9 million militias (0,4 million dead, 0,5 million prisoners of war)
      против
      3,9 million Wehrmacht and SS troops (2,7 dead, 0,9 million disabled, 0,3 million prisoners of war) plus 0,6 million Germany's allies (dead and captured).

      Thus, the ratio of losses for the specified period:
      11,2 million: 4,5 million ~ 2,5: 1 in favor of Germany. =
      But in addition to the Wehrmacht and the SS troops, the armies of other states also fought against the Red Army.

      It is not clear why the author forgot about the soldiers and officers of the armies of Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, etc., killed during the same period? They also contributed to the losses of the Red Army.

      Why did you forget? Look at the text - 0.6 million in the first half of the war and 1.1 million in the second half of the war.
  12. dgonni
    dgonni 27 March 2021 17: 17
    -12%
    To understand that the author puts the horse in front of the cart, you just need to read Stalin's speech at the meeting to celebrate the victory. And just go with the search engines to raise our unburied soldiers!
    And you stupidly understand that here there are really mountains of shell casings from MG. And over there in the hollow? Don't dig up there. And not to raise all who lay there!
    And the Germans were there? Well, the department, maybe less?
    And there in the hollow are ours. Person 600-800 +
    Therefore, all these actions are for new generations.
    The Germans fighting on 2 in fact 3 fronts had enough brains and the ability to fight with their brains!
    And such stuffing just lowers the feat of our brits. Which, in fact, are without control and command. No logistics and normal food supply. They just won with blood!
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 27 March 2021 18: 17
      -8
      EMPTY WATCHING - HERO.
      approx at 08 g on TKZvezda about weapons of Victory - "until the fall of 43, the number and density of small arms and cartridges per 1 km of the front in favor of the Germans!"
      it is a little PPSh and other machines + mosinki and Maxims AGAINST GERMAN.
      20-30 years before the shot - build factories (not cartridge and weapons)) - ------- A GENERAL MECHANICAL ENGINEERING, METALWORKING AND METALLURGY. AND OUT OF RELEVANCE - THE GENERAL LEVEL OF INDUSTRIAL CULTURE (number of toolmakers, etc.) .. + DEVELOPMENT OF THE ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE ..

      it is in what year the industrial revolution began in a particular area? in Germany - the middle of the 19th century. from RI - the beginning of the 20th century (see the memoirs of LIBrezhnev - about his father - he worked at the first factories in the south of Russia). "WE ARE 50-100 YEARS LAGGED ... WE WILL DREAM ...". did not crumple .. ran .. the price is high
    2. meandr51
      meandr51 27 March 2021 19: 03
      +12
      Again, a version of the traditional "showered with meat"? Facts into the studio, please! And my father saw so much German meat in Königsberg on the seashore that it was beyond his head. It was impossible to approach the shore - the corpses lay right next to the horizon in a strip of 200 m. They wanted to escape in boats, but they were not allowed. Nobody counted them.
    3. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 01: 30
      +8
      Quote: dgonni
      To understand that the author puts the horse in front of the cart, you just need to read Stalin's speech at the meeting to celebrate the victory. And just go with the search engines to raise our unburied soldiers!
      And you stupidly understand that here there are really mountains of shell casings from MG. And over there in the hollow? Don't dig up there. And not to raise all who lay there!
      And the Germans were there? Well, the department, maybe less?

      The search engine itself in 1985-86, on the battlefield of the 2nd Shock Army from February to June 1942. All prospecting work, mainly, was carried out in the places of "boilers" June 1941 - August 1942. What ratio of losses do you want from the "boilers"?

      In general, the period from June 1941 to August 1942, the first fourteen months, is the favorite period of our liberals from history, including modern filmmakers. Another Great Patriotic War, the remaining 32 months of the war, they do not want to know and not to see at close range!
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 27 March 2021 17: 46
    +4
    The analytics itself is quite complex, so in this topic I will only present the end results.
    Another Frolova on the site?
  14. Pavel57
    Pavel57 27 March 2021 18: 05
    -1
    No story with its factual content is 100 percent reliable.
  15. Stas1973
    Stas1973 27 March 2021 18: 21
    +4
    What is this article for with such assumptions and complex calculations?
    For 20 years it has been determined that the total irrecoverable losses of Germany on all fronts are about 11 million (including the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Luftwaffe, Crixmarine), excluding prisoners, there are about 5 million on all fronts. On the Eastern Front, the figure is about 10 million - 8,8 million Hans, the rest - allies, satellites and traitors, but not collaborators. For the rest - including prisoners.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 27 March 2021 18: 28
      +2
      Quote: Stas1973
      For 20 years it has been determined that the total irrecoverable losses of Germany on all fronts are about 11 million
      This is clear to you and me, but someone like dgonni is no longer quite.

      Quote: dgonni
      And the Germans were there? Well, the department, maybe less?
      And there in the hollow are ours. Person 600-800 +
      Therefore, all these actions are for new generations.
      The Germans fighting on 2 in fact 3 fronts had enough brains and the ability to fight with their brains!
    2. Avior
      Avior 27 March 2021 23: 07
      -2
      Sorry, but can you give a link, from which source are these numbers taken?
      1. Zakirov Damir
        28 March 2021 02: 22
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        Sorry, but can you give a link, from which source are these numbers taken?

        Chapter "Human Rubbing the Enemy" of Krivosheev's book:
        4 "Fatalities";
        7 "Prisoners of War".

        There is a very peculiar balance, but there are three data that Mueller-Hillebrand does not have:
        1. The total number of mobilized 21;
        2. 4 "Surrendered";
        3. 153 "Deserters".

        It is these three data that spin the Mueller-Hillebrand system of falsifications with pinpoint accuracy of up to 1000 people on the million-strong massifs. This is possible only on one condition - Krivosheev was familiarized with the archives of the Bundeswehr.

        Krivosheev underestimated the losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS, and Germany turned a blind eye to a million soldiers and 200 ordinary citizens in its ranks. For this reason, there are no colobrants in Krivosheev's balance sheet!

        Such an agreement, apparently, was reached by the parties.
        1. Avior
          Avior 28 March 2021 06: 05
          -2
          Such an agreement, apparently, was reached by the parties.

          Are you aware that the Germans kept surname records?
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 00: 27
      -3
      Quote: Stas1973
      For 20 years it has been determined that the total irrecoverable losses of Germany on all fronts are about 11 million.

      Determined by whom?
  16. Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 27 March 2021 18: 43
    +1
    "Germany, in general, did not count on the mass conscription of the civilian population, since everything was supposed to be done at the expense of the forty-first professional staff, which was prepared for 4 years and tested for another 2 years on the battlefields" - this phrase alone is enough to doubt the whole article.
    In the ground forces of Germany there were divisions:
    1932 g. - 10
    1935 - 31
    1936 - 41
    1937 - 42
    1938 - 52
    1939 - 109
    1940 - 157
    1941 - 208
    A total of 99 divisions (almost half) existed for less than 2 years.
    As for the 2-year field trial, it is three weeks in Poland, eight weeks in France and about two weeks in the Balkans. In total, no more than 8 months in total. I do not take into account Norway and Africa because of the scanty troops in one case and complete isolation in the second.
    The one who really got serious combat experience was the Luftwaffe.
    The USSR, by the way, had its own run-in, though on a smaller scale, but nevertheless it was.
    The author's desire to overestimate the losses of Germany is understandable to me, but this must be done seriously, and not unfoundedly proclaim - "you must multiply the" Killed "strictly by three."
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 28 March 2021 00: 08
      +3
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      A total of 99 divisions (almost half) existed for less than 2 years.

      How long do you think it takes to prepare a soldier and ml. commander? I mean com. squad, platoon. The Germans, let it be known to you, retained all their officers of the 1st World War. They did not have military schools like ours. It was enough for the Germans to write a statement about the desire to become an officer. And that's all, the service-study began with a private. So, the Wehrmacht had very good training. From private to officer. By the way, the SS troops had the worst training in comparison with the Wehrmacht, but were more politically motivated.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 28 March 2021 08: 41
        0
        I know all this.
        "Retained all their officers of the 1st World War" - not all, but many. One "but" - people have grown old, and the lieutenant of 1918 could no longer command a platoon in 1938 due to his age, and not everyone served in the Reichswehr.
        You should be aware that the preparation of a platoon and a division takes very different times. And lastly, who did not allow the USSR to cook high-quality hp?
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 28 March 2021 18: 07
          +1
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          One "but" - people grew old, and the lieutenant of 1918 could no longer command a platoon in 1938 due to his age, and they did not serve in the Reichswehr.

          Quite right, he couldn't. But, while in the Reichswehr, he studied and, by 41, he was already in command of a battalion or regiment.
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          And lastly, who did not allow the USSR to cook high-quality hp?

          General educational level of a soldier. In Germany, it was much higher than in the USSR.
          Therefore, before teaching a future officer in military affairs, in the Soviet military school he was taught general education.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 28 March 2021 19: 54
            +1
            "But, being in the Reichswehr" - let me quote myself - "not everyone served in the Reichswehr"
            "In the Soviet military school he was taught the general education" - not quite so, but in principle it is correct, but who prevented him from teaching longer? Who prevented you from teaching better? In 1944, after the 8th grade, my father entered the flight school, they were not taught any general education subjects. At the beginning of the 10s, he took a 50-year school as an external student in order to be able to enter the academy.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 28 March 2021 23: 59
              +1
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              "But, being in the Reichswehr" - let me quote myself - "not everyone served in the Reichswehr"

              "Far from all" does not mean that it is not enough. You are busy with verbiage.
              The Reichswehr was established at 21. According to the Versailles Treaty - 100 people. Who was trained in the Reichswehr? - Officers. How many officers have trained in 000 years of existence? So they became the core of the Wehrmacht.
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              Sciences "- not quite so, but in principle it is correct, but who prevented you from teaching longer? Who prevented you from teaching better?

              Time. Teachers.
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 29 March 2021 07: 09
                0
                “Who was trained in the Reichswehr? - Officers. " - don't come up with it. There were military schools for the training of officers.
                "Time. Teachers. " - 20 years have passed between the two world wars. This is not enough ??? Read how many tsarist officers remained in the USSR and how many of them served in the Red Army.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 29 March 2021 10: 22
                  0
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  “Who was trained in the Reichswehr? - Officers. " - don't come up with it. There were military schools for the training of officers.

                  I repeat, there were no military schools in Germany at that time.
                  But in universities, ordinary, civil, education lasted 9 (!!!) years.
                  How many years did you study at the universities of the USSR before the war?
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 29 March 2021 11: 59
                    0
                    You are right, there were no military schools, they were called schools. wink
                    The Allies allowed the Reichswehr to have four schools for the training of officers: an infantry school - first in Munich and then in Dresden; a cavalry school in Hanover, {390} an artillery school in Yuteborg (founded in 1919); and School of Engineering, Munich
                    https://studopedia.ru/16_18112_obuchenie-ofitserov.html
                    "But in universities, ordinary, civilian"
                    And what have the civilian universities ??? Are you changing the topic?
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 29 March 2021 13: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      And what have the civilian universities ??? Are you changing the topic?

                      No.

                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                      General educational level of a soldier. In Germany, it was much higher than in the USSR.

                      To this should be added - the general education level of the officer
                      1. Sergey Valov
                        Sergey Valov 29 March 2021 13: 40
                        0
                        "To this should be added - the general educational level of the officer" - and someone questioned this? belay It was about where the officers of the Reichswehr were trained stop
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 29 March 2021 13: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        It was about where the officers of the Reichswehr were trained

                        In the Reichswehr.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 29 March 2021 19: 20
              +1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Who was trained in the Reichswehr? - Officers. How many officers have trained in 14 years of existence? So they became the core of the Wehrmacht.

              Not so simple with the Reichswehr.
              It was really not created as a fighting army. but as a large training unit, an "army of officers", which was to be designed exclusively for training command personnel for the future large German army. Formally, there were few officers in the Reichswehr. But the training of personnel in it, EMNIP, was conducted in a rather peculiar way: officers - one step higher, non-commissioned officers - according to officer's programs, privates - according to non-commissioned officers.
              Because Germany did not have another way to quickly create a full-fledged army in the future - the terms of service in the Reichswehr set by Versailles were killing the possibility of creating a reserve of trained personnel for the deployment of this army.
              Article 174
              The recruitment of non-commissioned officers and soldiers must be carried out for twelve years without interruption.
              The proportion of persons leaving the service for whatever reason before the expiry of their term of employment shall not exceed five per cent annually of the total strength established by this Treaty (Article 160 (1), Section 2).

              Article 175
              Officers who will be retained in the army must commit to serving until at least forty-five years of age.
              Newly appointed officers must commit to active duty for at least twenty-five years without interruption.

              Therefore, von Seeckt began to prepare the skeleton and brain of the post-Versailles army.
              And then, when the Germans managed to weaken the vigilance of the guarantors of Versailles, some of the privates began to prepare as normal privates in the reserve, according to a 2-year program (instead of 12 "Versailles" years). smile
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 29 March 2021 22: 30
                0
                The Germans also created a border guard, which was twice the size of the Reichswehr and, in fact, was its active reserve.
  17. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 29 March 2021 18: 22
    +2
    Quote: Sergey Valov
    A total of 99 divisions (almost half) existed for less than 2 years.

    In the Red Army, the picture is no better:
    1935 - 84 rifle divisions, of which only 20 are personnel. The rest are territories that did not differ in terms of mobilization from newly formed divisions, and the command staff in them, from gathering to gathering, degraded so much that the chief of staff of the regiment of the territorials could not assign a combat mission to the battalion.
    1939 - 98 rifle divisions.
    1940 - 176 rifle, 32 tank and motorized divisions.
    ... the ground forces of the Red Army in the second half of 1939 - the first half of 1941. significantly increased and organizationally transformed. During this time, the directorates of 42 rifle, 29 mechanized, 5 airborne corps, 125 rifle, 31 motorized, 61 tank divisions, 108 artillery regiments, 3 separate artillery divisions, 29 motorcycle regiments and other support units were formed.
    © Meltyuhov
    Quote: Sergey Valov
    As for the 2-year field trial, it is three weeks in Poland, eight weeks in France and about two weeks in the Balkans. In total, no more than 8 months in total.

    The ambush is. that during these 4 months, in practice, OShS of such a level were tested and worked out that the Red Army could only dream of. Poland - military operations on an army scale for the infantry and divisional - for mechanical units. France - operations of the "front" and "tank group" level, moreover, together with backlashes.
    Quote: Sergey Valov
    The USSR, by the way, had its own run-in, though on a smaller scale, but nevertheless it was.

    The USSR had a rather specific run-in. Khasan and Khalkhin-Gol are at the corps level, and almost all the participants remained in the Far East. Poland - the introduction of troops with rare battles. Finland - a specific experience of breaking through the DOS line in a wooded and swampy area. The Red Army had no experience in operating the same motorized mechanized formations of the division-corps level.
    1. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 29 March 2021 22: 26
      0
      “The picture in the Red Army is no better” - the situation in the Red Army was even worse, after WWI the Germans retained and increased their personnel somewhat, we engaged in the class struggle and, as a result, got what they got.
      “Which the Red Army could only dream of” is for sure, but not two years of full-fledged hostilities, as my opponent wrote.
      "The USSR had a rather specific test run" - nevertheless, there was a run-in, there was also experience in the practical management of large masses of troops during the liberation of Western Ukraine and Belarus. Plus there was an opportunity to learn from the two-year experience of the war already underway.
      But these are all trifles, basically I completely agree with you.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 30 March 2021 10: 54
        +1
        Quote: Sergey Valov
        nevertheless, there was a run-in, there was also an experience of practical control of large masses of troops during the liberation of Western Ukraine and Belarus.

        Yes ... our armored vehicles have gained invaluable experience there in paralyzing the rear of their own troops. smile Marshal Budyonny, who was organizing the supply of fuel to the equipment that had stood up, had to pull the grandiose traffic jam away.
        According to the experience of the Polish campaign, large motorized mechanized units were disbanded as poorly managed. And literally immediately they began to form them anew - after the successes of the Germans in France.
        Quote: Sergey Valov
        Plus there was an opportunity to learn from the two-year experience of the war already underway.

        Just to understand which one two years of experience in the war already underway could learn the Red Army - this is what intelligence reported about the French campaign:
        ... for the offensive, the Germans deployed 90 divisions on the Dutch, Belgian and Luxembourgish border, including 15 tank and motorized ones, and 40 more divisions on the French border (and on May 10, 1940, according to intelligence, the Germans had more than two hundred divisions). Acting under the cover of about nine thousand combat aircraft, widely using "new techniques and methods of warfare" and "new offensive weapons (heavy tanks, motorcycle units, dive bombers, airborne troops)", German troops in the shortest possible time "penetrated deep into the territory of France, reached the coast of Northern France and thus separated the Belgian grouping of allies from the main forces of France, surrounded the Belgian grouping of allies of up to 60-70 divisions ”, however, losing two thousand combat aircraft and about half a million people killed and wounded. "Only in the vicinity of Rotterdam was a landing of 15 thousand people armed with machine guns, light weapons, anti-aircraft guns and light tanks."

        The Wehrmacht, according to Soviet intelligence, hacked the fortifications of the Maginot Line with heavy tanks armed with 100-mm cannons (however, the data on the combat weight of heavy tanks varied - according to some sources, German heavy tanks "T5" and "T6" weighed 60 tons , other sources were limited to "only" 32 tons). At least 2-3 German tank divisions, according to the same valiant reconnaissance, had one regiment of heavy tanks each, however, other sources reported the creation of two divisions from 35-ton heavy tanks. German motorcyclists, according to comrades Stirlitz, rolled across the fields and roads of Belgium and northern France in groups of up to sixty thousand people.
        © Ulanov / Shein
        Looking at all this, the reasons for some ... extraordinary decisions in the construction of pre-war armored vehicles, and the army as a whole, become clear.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 30 March 2021 14: 04
          0
          “Invaluable experience of paralyzing the rear of our own troops” - was this experience taken into account or repeated two years later?
          “Looking at all this, the reasons for some ... extraordinary decisions become clear” - and we again return to the personnel and their qualifications. By the way, after WWII there were also many "interesting" decisions in the military sphere of the USSR. Whatever one may say, but almost everything rests on the notorious human factor, or in other words, on the qualifications of personnel.
  • tatra
    tatra 27 March 2021 19: 30
    +2
    I was always outraged - why the dead collaborators and other dead accomplices of the Nazis from among the citizens of the USSR, and there were from 200 to 400 thousand people, are included in the losses of the Soviet people.
    1. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 27 March 2021 22: 31
      +2
      So before the war they were Soviet citizens, and after the war they were gone. This means the losses of the USSR.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 00: 29
      +1
      Quote: tatra
      there were from 200 to 400 thousand people, included in the loss of the Soviet people.

      To include 150 thousand people shot by military tribunals in the losses of the Wehrmacht, or what?
    3. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 02: 40
      +7
      Quote: tatra
      I was always outraged - why the dead collaborators and other dead accomplices of the Nazis from among the citizens of the USSR, and there were from 200 to 400 thousand people, are included in the losses of the Soviet people.


      444 soldiers and 100 ordinary citizens died in the Wehrmacht, in military formations outside the Wehrmacht and in police formations. Yes, they are included in the losses of the Soviet people.
      In addition to them, the losses of 26.6 million included:
      - 451 citizens not extradited by the allies (mostly colobrants who managed to retreat beyond the Line of Delimitation and their family members);
      --890 citizens who found themselves behind the Curzon Line when the new border of the USSR was established on August 300, 16;
      - 4 children under the age of 328 who died of natural causes from 600 to 5;
      - 2 citizens who died as a result of increased mortality during the war years, including 671 Soviet Romanians and Germans who took the citizenship of these countries during the war (were not subject to repatriation).
      All these citizens are included in the 26.6 million "dead" and are on the conscience of the "dictator" Stalin, the butcher Zhukov, etc.

      Real direct losses of the USSR:
      11 811 000 - military losses;
      5 - peaceful losses;
      Total, 17.
  • Operator
    Operator 27 March 2021 19: 33
    +5
    Official German data falsify national military losses killed by a simple and trouble-free method - by not including the losses of countries and regions that became part of the Third Reich after 1938: Bohemia and Moravia, the Polish General Government, the Baltic Ostland (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) ... Taking into account the massive conscription of the Volksdeutsch residing in these territories, as well as the losses of Austria, the German national losses should be doubled.

    The number of losses should also be added to the completely unaccounted for military losses of the Third Reich in 1945, when there was no record of those killed among the Wehrmacht, SS troops, female Luftwaffe air defense units (not considered military personnel) and Volkssturm.

    Moreover, it is also impossible to calculate the number of losses by the usual demographic calculation of the change in the number of the population of Germany as of 1939 and 1946, since immediately after the war several million German refugees from East Prussia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Alsace and Lorraine were deported to Germany.

    Plus the loss of the allies of the Third Reich - Italy, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Croatia.

    Plus the loss of France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in part of the volunteers who joined the ranks of the SS forces.

    Plus the loss of the support personnel of the Wehrmacht, recruited from among the Soviet prisoners of war.

    It may well turn out that the total military losses of the killed citizens of the Third Reich, its allies and collaborators in WWII will exceed the losses of the Red Army and the expeditionary forces of the United States and Britain in the European theater of operations.


    -
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 27 March 2021 21: 03
    +1
    The extensive type of economy of the USSR versus the intensive type in Germany turned out to be more advantageous.

    no, Germany has lost informationally. She openly showed the World what awaited him after the victory of Germany, so everywhere she had hidden and obvious opposition, for many in Europe the war was a way to make money ... And for us to survive.
    besides in Germany in 1941. the economy was not mobilization. And in the USSR, it has been like this since 1939.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 28 March 2021 17: 10
      +4
      Quote: aybolyt678
      The extensive type of economy of the USSR versus the intensive type in Germany turned out to be more advantageous.

      no, Germany has lost informationally. She openly showed the World what awaited him after the victory of Germany, so everywhere she had hidden and obvious opposition, for many in Europe the war was a way to make money ... And for us to survive.
      besides in Germany in 1941. the economy was not mobilization. And in the USSR, it has been like this since 1939.

      Colleague, Germany has lost ideologically and economically. Which speaks very strongly in favor of socialism.
    2. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 28 March 2021 19: 59
      +1
      "Germany lost informationally" - Germany lost stupidly because it got involved in a war with the whole world. The United States alone was economically immeasurably stronger than Germany, instead of all of its allies. After December 1941, the defeat of Germany was only a matter of time.
  • Avior
    Avior 27 March 2021 23: 12
    +1
    ... The analytics itself is quite complex, so in this topic I will only present the end results.

    With such a level of arguments and reasoning that all German losses need to be multiplied by three, the article only discredits the site: ((
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 00: 31
      +2
      Quote: Avior
      the article only discredits the site

      After all the rest of the historical work? No. Well, at least in "opinions" and not in "history".
      1. chenia
        chenia 28 March 2021 16: 43
        +4
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        No


        The best method is really big numbers.
        Germany for the summer of 1940 -70 million
        - for the summer 1946 -64 million (in 1945, two million more, but here when they ran from zone to zone, and immediately after the war, the numbers are dubious).
        And it should be (taking into account the fall in the birth rate by 1/3) - 72 million
        And if we take into account that from 3 to 5 million Germans dumped in Germany (almost from all of Europe), then in Germany there should be another 4 (about) million more. (i.e. -76 million people)
        That is, excessive losses of specific Germans (within the borders of purely Germany) -12 million people.

        3 млн... -the loss of the civilian population, 9 млн. military personnel.

        And taking into account Austria and other Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and Finland and other collaborators, the losses of the Red Army are approaching 1: 1, 2.
        So the author (in numbers) is right in principle.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 28 March 2021 17: 38
          0
          "The best method is really large numbers" - the method may be good, but you have one serious mistake. It is very pleasant to add to the losses during the entire war more than 4 million surrendered servicemen, who for the most part survived, and not to add them to the population in 1946.But there were still millions of Germans who were captured before April-May 1945 and who returned after 1946 So in reality in 1946 there were much more living Germans. This is on a large scale, but you can also walk on trifles.
          1. chenia
            chenia 28 March 2021 19: 30
            +1
            Quote: Sergey Valov
            It is very pleasant to add to the losses during the entire war more than 4 million surrendered military personnel


            Right. Two years are knocked out (1947-1948), where the increase does not correspond to the presence of the population (up to 3 million people). But weren't the prisoners taken into account as the population of Germany? But the Germans of Yugoslavia driven from the lands (3 million) are the Czech Republic (up to 1,5 million), Poland, even Luxembourg (like the same Germans). and this happened not only until the end of the war, but mainly after.
            And isn't this what gave such an increase in the population of Germany? There is a figure 9 млн... German refugees, (but I think it was exaggerated) from places outside of Germany ..
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 March 2021 23: 30
          0
          Quote: chenia
          The nicest method

          Roll-call.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 29 March 2021 19: 26
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Roll-call.

            Have tried it. We got multiple duplicate entries - in different documents the same person was spelled differently. For the combination "bad connection + not too high literacy" can do nothing like that.
            And one killed turned into three or four.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 30 March 2021 06: 51
              0
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Have tried.

              You see, you need to work, and not just spread it on the Internet.
    2. Zakirov Damir
      28 March 2021 02: 52
      +3
      Quote: Avior
      ... The analytics itself is quite complex, so in this topic I will only present the end results.

      With such a level of arguments and reasoning that all German losses need to be multiplied by three, the article only discredits the site: ((

      This is what the Mueller-Hillebrand system of falsifications is designed for, since no serious historian would believe that it is possible, stupidly, three times, to underestimate the losses under the item "Killed" for the period from 1.9.1939 to 31.12.1944. One article, not eight, to make it clear!
      He underestimated and said: "The Third Reich against the Third Rome underestimated the death toll exactly three times!"
      1. Avior
        Avior 28 March 2021 06: 00
        -1
        Of course he won't. The Germans have a surname record of the overwhelming majority of those killed, drawn up during the war to notify relatives. Do you know about this?
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 28 March 2021 00: 07
    -2
    Our soldier was inferior to the German at the beginning of the war, but our conscript because of the same TRP was, on the whole, better than the German. Damage is damage, you can't trample on demography, Germany + satellites were more than twice as low as the USSR in demography, German equipment as a whole was more complicated and less relied on conscripts, in this regard, we also beat them. But behind all this there is something that I could never understand and lay down - How could you have poured out so much in defense on such a huge front at the beginning of the war ?! After all, our districts were very saturated with weapons and equipment, shooting training could not be called weak, pilots and air defense were also not unequivocally worthless by European standards. Technically, our gap from the Wehrmacht was not so capital (excluding communication and with certain corrections for the quality of aviation and reconnaissance) - and if we meditate on all this, then the picture of all these losses on some kind of defense and with a fairly confident advantage-parity of forces on our side, this is a completely inconceivable, illogical picture.
  • Zakirov Damir
    28 March 2021 01: 58
    +2
    Quote: Stas1973
    For 20 years it has been determined that the total irrecoverable losses of Germany on all fronts are about 11 million (including the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Luftwaffe, Crixmarine), excluding prisoners, there are about 5 million on all fronts. On the Eastern Front, the figure is about 10 million - 8,8 million Hans, the rest - allies, satellites and traitors, but not collaborators. For the rest - including prisoners.

    Balance on the revealed falsifications in front of you:
    5 "Fatalities"
    plus
    2 875 500 "Prisoners of war" (without 391 800 "capitulated", in fact released)
    plus
    ~ 5 / 570 = 000 "Disabled"
    plus
    330 Soviet collaborators killed in the Wehrmacht and SS troops
    Total: approximately 10 irrecoverable losses, and taking into account the 643 liberated soldiers of the Wehrmacht, approximately 500 irrecoverable losses on the Eastern Front. What is not clear?
    1. Avior
      Avior 28 March 2021 05: 57
      -1
      Nothing from your presentation
      Germany's demographic losses on all fronts amounted to 5,318 million people.

      Now read your post
      1. Zakirov Damir
        28 March 2021 16: 23
        +2
        Quote: Avior
        Nothing from your presentation
        Germany's demographic losses on all fronts amounted to 5,318 million people.

        Now read your post

        1. First, first, figure out who the 5 people are - how many of them are the Wehrmacht and how many paramilitary units. We are talking purely and the Wehrmacht and the military SS!

        2. Secondly, 3 surrendered from 405 to 000 were first recorded as "Surrendered", and then re-recorded as "Prisoners in the course of hostilities" after the official surrender was announced on 1.5.1945.
        Re-read the topic again and you will understand through what articles he did it.

        3. Thirdly, it would be nice for you to understand analogies on large numbers - they never lie!
        5 226 800 "Killed on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation" in the Red Army
        2 576 000 "Commissioned for injuries, contusions, frostbite and burns"
        Total: 5 / 226 = 800 the ratio of those killed on the battlefield to the disabled.

        4 "Killed" by Rüdiger Overmans
        2 310 100 "" Compensated for wounds, contusions, frostbite and burns "according to Müller-Hillebrand
        Total: 4 681 000/2 310 100 = 2.026.

        Proportions see how close you lay? So who are the 4 "Killed" Overmans?

        This is only "Those who died on the battlefield and died at the stage of sanitary evacuation", since Rudiger Overmans did not consider it necessary to take into account the rest, namely:
        - 990 "Dead in the rear hospitals from wounds";
        - 1 277 000 "Missing, but in fact dead, whose death has not been recorded by anyone", "Died from disease", "Died from careless handling of ammunition and equipment", "Shot on the court of the military tribunal."



        In the Red Army, these articles are taken into account, and therefore the dead are not 5, but 226 according to Krivosheev, but taking into account the 800 missing, 6.
        1. Avior
          Avior 28 March 2021 18: 47
          -2
          Empty verbosity. You didn't read your own post
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 28 March 2021 13: 08
    0
    Objective and thorough analysis. Thanks to the author.
  • smaug78
    smaug78 28 March 2021 14: 49
    -1
    Is the author another relative of Samsonov and Frolova? laughing
  • Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 28 March 2021 20: 46
    0
    Honestly. I could not read the article. But my ex-wife really appreciates Mueller-Hillebrandt's "research". He says you read a couple of pages - and a healthy child's sleep. smile
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 29 March 2021 11: 44
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    The losses of the Wehrmacht as a whole are very well known.
    Wehrmacht lost irrevocably ALL mobilization as it capitulated.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 31 March 2021 15: 21
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    The article is rubbish - complete rubbish.
    I just lost my time delving into fancy calculation methods.
    What kind of nonsense is now being published on VO ... not even amateurs, but frank alternatives, who do not know about history as a science, but who are trying to gouge their conjectures.
  • Thompson
    Thompson April 1 2021 20: 43
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    Quote: Avior
    ... At the end of 1942, of all the prisoners, they systematically killed only Germans. As for the Italians, Hungarians and Romanians, regardless of whether they were clergy or not, they killed only those who could not walk, since the rest were driven on foot to the collection points on the banks of the Don. ... by the testimony of Mario Pedroni, junior lieutenant of the 81st Infantry Regiment. He was taken prisoner together with the 111th field hospital of the Torino division ... the seriously wounded were separated from the rest (there were about 150 of them), they were taken to the wall of some hut and shot. ... Everything happened very quickly and routinely .... About 30 officers and soldiers, who continued to lie in the hut, because they could not stand on their feet, were mercilessly killed, and the hut was set on fire ... the Russians lined up the rest of the prisoners in columns and drove to a concentration camp ...

    Did they come to us to do charity work? What they sowed is what they got for the harvest
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 2 2021 14: 04
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    What is the "extensive type of economy" in the USSR? Like, they did not create new technologies, did not develop the industry efficiently, did they stupidly drive the "shaft"?
    You can recall Paton's method of in-line welding. In the "intensive German economy," the armor plates were riveted.
    Do not exaggerate so much.