Military Review

Arrows of Perun. Armament of the Slavs of the VI-VIII centuries.

265

Perun. Drawing by the author.


This article continues the cycle about Slavic weapons early period on "VO". It provides a comprehensive analysis not only of this type of weapon, but also its connection with the mental ideas of the ancient Slavs.

Military Byzantine theorists reported that the bow and arrow were far from the main weapon of the early Slavs, in contrast to the spear. But when describing the hostilities, the sources inform us about the constant use of the bow by the Slavs.

Perun, his bow and arrows


The spear, which was actively used by the early Slavs, had a sacred meaning for many ethnic groups, but not for the Slavs. But arrows and a bow were directly associated with the god of thunder, whose attributes were these weapons.

The etymology of the term "arrow" remains open. According to M. Vasmer's "Dictionary", it has a pre-European origin. And among Bulgarians and Rezians, Slovenes from Italian Friul, the rainbow was considered God's bow. In Slavic languages, the common noun perun, motivated by the verb perti, means "the one who hits, strikes."

Other weapons were also associated with Perun.

Perun (like another famous thunderer, Zeus) went through a series of steps. And it seriously changed at different stages of the development of the tribal society, which is more or less clearly outlined on the basis of the analysis of ancient Greek mythology. In relation to the Slavic god the Thunderer, we do not have such information in historical sources, but we have data on different types of his weapons.

These types of weapons must be considered from the point of view of the evolution of the Proto-Slavic and early Slavic society and its views on the world around them, since they could not be used all together and at once. Simply put, what weapon prevailed or was of great importance for the tribe, the supreme deity was endowed with such weapons.

Therefore, the sword, for example, did not become the weapon of the supreme deity during the period when the Slavs appeared in the historical arena in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. due to the fact that such a weapon was practically inaccessible to them, as will be discussed in the next article. The sword could not in any way be associated with the weapon of the god.

Perun went through different stages of development along with the changing ideas of the ancient Slavs about the surrounding living and inanimate world. (A.F. Losev) Evolution went from the god of lightning, through the god who controls thunder and lightning, and the god of the raincoat, as a key god, influencing the agricultural cycle, to the god of war of the period of potestary society and the end of the tribal community. And the weapon that the lightning god used changed along with the development of the stages of the tribal system.

The origins of the worship of the Thunderer in the "cult of nature", characteristic of gatherers and hunters, where originally Perun

"Nothing more than an atmospheric phenomenon and only secondarily - a deity."

(H. Lovmyansky)

Perhaps that is why at the first stage his weapon was stone, associated with a stone hammer. In this regard, it is important that the etymology of the origin of the word "lightning" is built hypothetically, and is associated with "hammer". In Latvian it was called "Perun's hammer". There is a visible similarity with the "hammer of Thor" - "mjollnir" from the "Elder Edda", which is directly related to lightning. The sources do not find data on hammers as Slavic weapons. Although there is no such information about the use of hammers among the Germans, except for amulets of the Viking Age - the "hammers of Thor" or the sculpture of Thor with a hammer in his hand, described by Snorri Sturlusson.

But it is quite possible that the proto-Slavs also passed the stage of such weapons as stone hammers. In Belarusian fairy tales, Perun beats a snake with his weapon and stones. This weapon was not reflected in written sources that record the Slavs at a later time, when they ended up on the borders of the Byzantine Empire.

And in this, second period, the supreme deity - only

"Lightning creator"

as Procopius of Caesarea wrote about him.

And there is no lightning without thunder. In this situation, we are interested in the connection of this deity with weapons. In this connection, the information of Ambassador Herberstein, who in the XNUMXth century, according to the Novgorodians, described the appearance of Perun in his sanctuary near Novgorod in Peryn during the pagan period, seems to be very important to us:

“The Novgorodians, when they were still pagans, had an idol named Perun - the god of fire (Russians call fire“ Perun ”).

On the spot where the idol stood, a monastery was built, which still retained its name from it: "Perun Monastery".

The idol had the appearance of a man, and in his hands he held a flint that looked like a thunderous arrow or beam. "

In folklore, there is also evidence of the connection of the god of thunder with arrows or thunder, like the arrows of a god. It should be emphasized that etymologically "thunder" does not carry any other load than the generally accepted one today: to rattle, to make noise.

Herberstein's information and folklore make it possible to assert that the most important weapon of Perun was arrows during the period of the tribal system, on which the early Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries were also located. and Eastern Slavs in the X century.

Arrows of Perun. Armament of the Slavs of the VI-VIII centuries.
Thunderbolt Map

For a long time, various Slavic peoples have called and call Perun's arrows belemnites, fossilized remains of extinct cephalopods, which outwardly resemble a hollow arrowhead, "Perun's arrows", as well as fragments of meteorites.

The designation "arrows of the thunderer" under one or another name is found throughout the territory of the Slavs. These "arrows" were widely used as healing stones among the Slavs, and were inherited. (Ivanov Vch. V., Toporov V.N.)

What brings stone weapons and arrows together, like the weapon of a thunderer?

"Pyarun" in Belarusian and the designation of the shell, which, according to the conviction of the then village old people, strikes with thunder and lightning: "thunder" is the sound of a blow, "malanka" (lightning) is a flash of light from it, like a huge spark , and the thing with which the blow is made - "parun" - something like a stone arrow or a hammer. "

At the same time, we have information about the sacred nature of arrows.

So the shooting of prisoners with "dews" from bows, described by the Byzantine author - the successor of Theophanes, is interpreted not just as an execution, but as a rite of human sacrifice.

This event took place during the campaign of Prince Igor in 944 against Constantinople. During the sacrifices on the island of St. George, during the march from Kiev to Constantinople. Around the oak - the tree of the thunderer, the Russians stuck arrows into the ground.

After the stones, it was the bow and arrows that became the next weapon of the Thunderer God.

The emergence of "new weapons" undoubtedly testifies to the next stage in the development of ancient Slavic society, evolution in industrial relations and world outlook. All these moments were related. A step in mental representations, which undoubtedly stemmed from economic activity, where the bow was both a tool of labor and a weapon.

Herberstein's information and folklore make it possible to assert that the most important weapon of Perun was arrows during the tribal system. The building, on which the early Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries were located. and Eastern Slavs in the X century.

Therefore, arrows remained the main weapon of Perun throughout the entire period of his worship. Although he also had a club or a club, the Novgorod clubs of Perun were destroyed only in the XNUMXth century. But the hypostasis of Perun, Svyatovid, was already in the X-XI centuries among the Lyutichs (Western Slavs). dressed in armor and a helmet. Among the Western Slavs, potestary structures are formed, and squads appear. And along with this, the supreme deity also receives a new weapon.

Which undoubtedly indicates a new stage in the development of society.

Later in folklore, when the bearers of the attributes of the god of thunder (for example, Elijah the Prophet) were mentioned, arrows were replaced by bullets. And this, we repeat, only emphasizes the evolution of the deity's weaponry in relation to the mentality of different periods.

The close connection of the god of lightning with the mass weapons of the early Slavs is obvious.

The early Slavs endowed the supreme deity with the same weapons that they themselves used. The god of thunder and rain (the most important agricultural god of the early Slavs) was armed with a bow and arrow. To him, as reported by Procopius of Caesarea, oxen were sacrificed.

Ethnographers testify to the rituals (which have survived to this day in different countries among the Slavs) associated with worship and offerings to the hypostases of Perun. Its significance in the agricultural cycle is obvious and indisputable: the working life of a farmer is subject to constant threats - the elements.

Byzantine writers about the bow and arrows of the Slavs


Mauritius Stratig in the VI century. pointed to simple, small-sized Slavic bows. When firing from which, arrows soaked in poison were used to compensate for the weak impact force.

At a similar stage of development, the ancient Greeks, who used simple bows, also did with their arrows. Hercules himself, the son of the thunderer Zeus, shot poisoned arrows. Hence the term "toxic" associated with the Greek name of onion - toxos. Shooting from a technologically imperfect bow was compensated for by poison. First - on the hunt, and then - in the war.


The shooter is a Slav. Drawing by the author.

In an attempt to challenge the "injustice of history" in popular literature, groundless evidence is presented that the Slavs nevertheless successfully used the complex bow they had mastered almost since the time of the "Scythian plowmen". At the same time, forgetting that the use of one or another weapon is directly related to the formation of the worldview, environment and the level of production of one or another ethnic group during the tribal formation.

But some of the Germans did not use the bow at all. Although there are many archaeological finds of German arrowheads.

The Goths mastered it only in the 552th century, when they defended their own state in Italy from Byzantium. This often came out sideways to them, as in the battle of Tagin, in the summer of 553, when the Romans literally shot the cavalry attack of the Goths. Also in the battle of XNUMX on the Kasulin River near the town of Tannet (not far from Capua), when, repeating Hannibal's maneuver at Cannes, the Byzantine horse-drawn arrows from the flanks shot the infantry of the Alemans and Franks.

Despite the fact that the author of the "Strategy" of the late XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries. pointed to the secondary nature of the bow for the Slavs, it is difficult to agree with this. In economic activities and hunting, he could not help but be used.

In military affairs, the bow begins to play an important role when the Slavs, from captures from behind shelters and ambushes, move on to attacks on settlements. It is clear that it is extremely difficult to throw spears to the top of the walls. The well-aimed Slav Svarun threw a spear not up, but down - at the "turtle" of the Persians. The same cannot be said about arrows.

Already in the middle of the VI century. the Slavs took the first large city of Toper, while they knocked down the townspeople from the walls

"A cloud of arrows".

During clashes with the Byzantine army, the Slavs actively used archery. In one of the skirmishes, the Slavs fired arrows at the commander Tatimer, wounding him. No matter how weak the bow is, it still surpasses the throwing javelin in terms of combat range, especially during a siege, not to mention the rate of fire and the amount of ammunition. Two or three throwing spears against, for example, forty arrows. Forty arrows, according to Byzantine tactics, should have been a warrior-shooter.

In 615 (616), the Slavs, when they took Salona in Dalmatia, threw it then

"Arrows, then darts."

The attack was carried out from a hill. During the next siege of Thessalonica around 618, the Slavs

"They sent arrows to the walls like snow clouds."

“And it was strange to see this multitude [of stones and arrows], which obscured the rays of the sun;

as a cloud carrying hail, so [the barbarians] closed the vault of heaven with flying arrows and stones. "

The same situation arises during the siege of Thessaloniki in the 670s:

"Then every living creature in the city saw, like a winter or rain-bearing cloud, an innumerable number of arrows, with force cutting through the air and turning the light into night darkness."

"Rain of arrows", "arrows flying like a rain-bearing cloud" is not the will and weapon of God?

God helping to overcome. And a visible confirmation of his support.

Archeology about the bow and arrow of the Slavs


Mauritius Stratig's opposition to bows that are easy to manufacture and complex bows of nomads and Romans needs to be clarified.

Compound bows were most often used in horse battles, in which the Slavs practically did not participate. Even if we assume that in Italy the Antes served not in the infantry, but in the Roman cavalry, then, most likely, they would have used the bow of the nomads or the Romans.

The details of a composite bow found in Khitsy (Gadyachensky district, Poltava region, Ukraine) can confirm this version. But they may also indicate that this bone patch just somehow got to this Slavic settlement of the Penkovo ​​archaeological culture.

Of course, the Slavs could shoot from a complex bow that somehow got to them. But its mass use is out of the question. (Kazansky M.M., Kozak D.N.).

But a simple bow was easy to make, and was used in everyday life. In war (with its massive use), it ensured success for the Slavs.

Let us return once more to the sequence of capturing Mr. Topper.

At first, the Slavs lured out the garrison, which, having fallen into an ambush, was destroyed. Then they dropped a cloud of arrows on the walls of the city, using, among other things, the hills, from where it was much more convenient to shoot. The townspeople (ordinary inhabitants) could not oppose anything to this. And they either fled from the walls, or were "swept away" by the shooting. And the city was taken.

Given the advantage of the Slavs in numbers, the use of such weapons was relevant and ensured victory.

If the bows of the ancient Slavs were not found at all, then with arrows (more precisely, with arrowheads) things are somewhat better. However, there is not much material.

To date, several modern studies have been devoted to their codification.
M.M. Kazansky in its catalog has 41 arrowheads. While A.S. Polyakov - 63. Shuvalov believes that Kazansky did not take into account 10 more arrowheads from the territory of Wallachia and Moldavia.

The finds can be divided into three types: three-bladed, double-winged (double-winged), and leaf-shaped.

The question of the ethnicity of the arrowheads remains open. The leaf type has no clear ethnic correspondence. A dispute arose around the three-bladed tips. M.M. Kazansky attributed the three-bladed arrows to the Slavic type, and P.V. Shuvalov believes that these are exactly the arrows of the enemies.


Finds of arrowheads of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. Winter. Western Volyn. Ukraine.

Finds of these arrowheads are found throughout Eastern Europe among bearers of different archaeological cultures, not only nomads. But this does not mean their widespread use by the local population. In our case, the ancient Slavs.

In the interfluve of the Dnieper and the Neman, where the early Baltic tribes were located, 20 such arrowheads were found during this period. In Lithuania, in the Plinkaigale burial ground, two arrowheads were found in two graves with which men were killed. They became the "reason for the funeral." That is, the arrows did not belong to the local population, but to those who attacked them. (Kazakevichus V.)

The Slavs may well have used such arrowheads as a by-product after the attacks of the nomads. A “product” that has “migrated” in different directions. And there is nothing to indicate the fact that only a complex bow had to be used to use arrows with such a tip.

The above data confirm the reports of written sources that the early Slavs used a small wooden bow.

Double-spiked or double-winged socketed tips are correlated with both the Germans and the Slavs. A. Panikarsky studied the finds of such arrowheads in detail. Such an arrow had a serious penetrating power, as was shown by an experiment conducted in England in 2006 with an English bow and similar arrows.

But P.V. Shuvalov believes that only one type of arrow is suitable for small Slavic bows. And it is represented by the only find from the settlement of Odaya (Moldavia) around the 4,5th century. It is a petiole tip with a flat rhombic cross-section nib, tapering to the point, XNUMX cm long.


Prague-Korczak culture. State Historical Museum. Moscow. Russia.

Due to the fact that the blacksmith centers among the Slavs, according to archeology, do not appear earlier than the XNUMXth century, then (contrary to written evidence) the question remains how the Slavic blacksmiths provided their tribes with the proper number of arrowheads.

Perhaps the lack of an iron tip was compensated by a bone one? Or just sharpened tips, smeared with poison?

Summing up, we can say that the bow and arrow occupied an important place, both in economic activity and in war. Despite the fact that the written sources do not pay due attention to them, the analysis of the development of the tribal mentality testifies to the enormous practical and semantic significance that the Slavs attached to it.

The Slavs used arrowheads, both borrowed directly and copied from neighbors, compensating for the small impact force of a simple bow by using poison.


To be continued ...

Sources and literature:

Alekseev S.V. Great resettlement of the Slavs. 627–679 M., 2015.
Ivanov Vch. V., Toporov V.N. Research in the field of Slavic antiquities. M., 1974.
Ivanov I. The Cult of Perun among the South Slavs. M., 2005.
Kazakeyavichus V. Weapons of the Baltic tribes of the II-VIII centuries. on the territory of Lithuania. Vilnius. 1988.
Lovmyanskiy G. Religion of the Slavs and its decline (VI-XII). Translation by M.V. Kovalkova. SPb., 2003.
Losev B.A. The mythology of the Greeks and Romans. M., 1996.
Trubachev O.N. Ethnogenesis and culture of the ancient Slavs. M., 2003.
Thomas Splitsky “History of the Archbishops of Salons and Split” Translation, introductory article and comments by OA Akimova. M., 1997.
Froyanov I. Ya. Ancient Russia. M. – SPb., 1995.
Shuvalov P.V. Weapons of the early Slavs // "Cultural transformations and mutual influences in the Dnieper region at the end of Roman time and in the early Middle Ages", 2004. Volume 11. Proceedings of the Institute for the History of Material Culture. SPb., 2004.
Etymological Dictionary of Slavic Languages. Proto-Slavic lexical fund. Edited by O.N. Trubachev. Issue 20.M., 1994.
Kazanski M. L'armement Slave du haut Moyen-Age (Ve-VII-e siecles). A propos des chefs militaries et des guerriers professionnels chez les anciens Slavs // Pfehled vyzkumu. No. 39 (1995-1996). Brno.
Author:
Articles from this series:
"The spear of fate" of the ancient Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuriesSlavs of the VI-VIII centuries. With shield?
How the ancient Slavs fought
The siege of the Slavs in the VI-VII centuries
How the ancient Slavs took the city
As the early Slavs actually fought
Was the squad among the early Slavs?
The clan and military organization of the early Slavs of the VI — VIII centuries
Slavs and the First Bulgarian Kingdom in the VII-VIII centuries
The origin of the Slavs
Slavs and the beginning of the Great Migration
Slavs and Avars in the VI century
Slavs on the Danube in the VI century
Slavs, Avars and Byzantium. The beginning of the VII century
Slavs on the threshold of statehood
The first state of the Slavs
265 comments
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  1. Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 22 March 2021 18: 59
    +14
    Greetings Edward!
    Finally, or else we are tired of waiting! hi
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 19: 36
      +20
      All welcome! hi hi
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 20: 11
        +9
        After reading the first paragraph, without reading the text, I rewound to the bottom of the article and, to my delight, confirmed my guess!
        Dear Edward, I am sincerely glad to read you !!!
        Thank you for coming back with such a "gift" !!!! Take care of yourself and don't get lost anymore!
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          22 March 2021 21: 07
          +9
          Vladislav, good evening,
          business, illness ... I will try not to get lost! hi
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 49
            +4
            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            Vladislav, good evening,
            business, illness ... I will try not to get lost! hi

            We catch it at our word! And then, from time to time, with an honest company, we were sad and worried that we had not bothered with an alternative means of communication.
            Sincerely yours, Vlad!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 09: 55
              +3
              We catch it at our word! And then, from time to time, with an honest company, we were sad and worried that we had not bothered with an alternative means of communication.

              Penalty Eduardo! fellow Penalty-well! drinks
              Vladislav, I'll join you sideways! wink I am very pleased with the new article, although the author made me nervous. I mean, we've been waiting too long for this article. request But I hope Edward will improve, and will continue to delight us more often! drinks Otherwise, we will analyze his behavior at the party meeting. laughing
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                23 March 2021 20: 47
                +3
                Necessarily !!!! hi
      2. lucul
        lucul 22 March 2021 21: 05
        +2
        I greet everyone

        There is even nothing to complain about - neither formally nor mentally.
        The author is developing, it pleases.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          22 March 2021 21: 55
          +5
          There is even nothing to complain about - neither formally nor mentally.
          hi
      3. Alien From
        Alien From 22 March 2021 21: 45
        +8
        Thank you, welcome back! I join the forum users, the article is chic! We are waiting for the continuation of the series) hi
  2. martin-159
    martin-159 22 March 2021 19: 02
    +5
    I would like to know something about the composition of Slavic arrow poisons.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 23 March 2021 01: 34
      +6
      Quote: martin-159
      I would like to know something about the composition of Slavic arrow poisons.

      "newbie". yeah.
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 23 March 2021 16: 18
        +4
        You are right in the passage about the weakness and simplicity of the bow and, as a consequence, the poison in the arrows causes mistrust. Arrowheads were not sterile, many were used for more than one year, and poison was used like all other peoples for guaranteed killing of enemies
        So many absurdities are written about the weapons of our ancestors that they are simply overwhelmed. Simple bows (such as English ones) have never been used in RUSI, simply because in our climate it will only work in warm weather. Our ancestors managed to shoot from bows not only on foot but also on horseback, which is simply impossible with simple bows.
        Excavations also indicate the use of complex bows, both combat and hunting, oral folk art also confirms, so where do these passages about the simplicity of weapons come from?
        By the way, Hellenic culture began to develop ONLY after the Pelasgians brought culture to the Peloponnese peninsula (named after the Pelasgians). Pelasgians come from the places where the city of Voronezh stands today, but for some reason this causes so much rejection and even aggression among some figures from history.
        This is to the fact that the ancient Greeks armed their heroes with complex bows for which there is not only written evidence, but also drawings.
        1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
          Andrey Krasnoyarsky 24 March 2021 14: 19
          0
          I will reveal to you a mysterious secret: historians (professional) reject the origin of the Pelasgians from the place where the city of Voronezh stands, for the reason that none of the sources mentions their Voronezh origin. But if you have reliable data that the Pelasgians, before moving to the Peloponnese, lived in Voronezh on Lizyukov Street, I believe that historians will familiarize themselves with these data with great interest.
          1. Basil50
            Basil50 24 March 2021 18: 13
            +1

            Yeah. Here is the response.
            The ancient Greeks left many written sources both in the form of legends and in the form of a biography of their gods with details about the place of birth and about the deeds. The myths of ancient Greece were published more than once in different languages. Even the publishing house * Children's Literature * was noted, although many intimate details were removed. It is worth reading.
            1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
              Andrey Krasnoyarsky 25 March 2021 14: 01
              -1
              And even in their legends, the Greeks wrote that in the north there are people with dogs' heads and people with mouths on their stomachs. And many more interesting things. True, the Greeks did not specifically indicate whether the aforementioned people lived in Voronezh or in Naryan-Mar.
  3. Engineer
    Engineer 22 March 2021 19: 14
    +10
    Didn't expect it at all). I thought the author had left VO.
    Confused by the bias towards Perun proper and his attributes, the analysis of the tip typology took up little space. Very sorry.
    It would be possible to give a brief comparison of the bows of the Byzantines. Would enrich the article. And that about the actual arrows is not enough. Moreover, it is not clear whether they are all Slavic.
    A couple of moments cut my eyes, but not significantly.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 19: 37
      +12
      Denis welcome
      everything is close to the latest research, but the format of the article is not rubbery, in short, everything that is for today.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 22 March 2021 19: 46
        +7
        Good evening.
        Hopefully not the last article
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          22 March 2021 19: 58
          +9
          The next one is already ready hi
  4. bk0010
    bk0010 22 March 2021 19: 16
    +3
    "Arrows of Perun with multiple warheads" - this is the name I saw in the book, I remember it.
  5. paul3390
    paul3390 22 March 2021 19: 16
    +9
    It is highly doubtful that the Slavs, who had been in contact with the Steppe almost from the Cimmerian times, did not know anything about composite composite bows. Another thing is that such a bow is a very expensive thing, a weapon of a professional warrior. In the forest, however, such a thing is generally not very necessary, the shooting distance is quite small. The usual is quite enough for everyday needs. And the composite - it is also necessary to take care of it, it’s like a Mercedes in those times. However - like a sword. Weapons in the economy are completely useless, but prohibitively expensive. Yes, and a high-quality sword - still need to find, the vast majority of those then - sheer junk. Even in sagas, Avon talk about the unfortunate owners who, after several blows, are forced to leave the battle and straighten the blade with their foot ... A good welded one is a real work of blacksmithing, only very noble warriors can afford it ..


    So, the hide was spread between the fighters. Torgils held his brother's shield, and Tord Anrdisarson held Bercy's shield. Bercy struck first and tore a few splinters from Cormac's shield. Cormac struck the same blow. They both hacked and broke all three shields. Came through Cormac. He struck Bercy, who substituted his sword for Hwitting. Skofnung cut off the tip of his sword in front of the valley. The severed tip of the sword grazed Cormac and cut his thumb. Blood fell to the skin and the battle was interrupted.

    It is very characteristic of the quality of the swords ..

    Therefore, until the Slavs and Germans formed a class of rich warriors, they went to fight with what was at hand, a spear and an ordinary bow. More darts and an ax. Therefore, the gods are all armed in the same way .. And what should they break away from the people?
  6. knn54
    knn54 22 March 2021 19: 22
    0
    Such a poisoned Drevlyansky arrow with the venom of a viper (like they added milk of a dead cow to the composition) killed the "prophetic" Oleg, who was making a raider campaign to the lands of the Drevlyans. Killing Oskol Dyurovich (Dzyurovich / Yuryevich). Descendant of Kiy, the governor of the Khazars. Kiev was a frontier fortress of the Drevlyans. Slavutych, which was captured by the glade together with the Khazars.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 20: 33
      +9
      Quote: knn54
      Such a poisoned Drevlyansky arrow with the venom of a viper (like they added milk of a dead cow to the composition) killed the "prophetic" Oleg, who was making a raider campaign to the lands of the Drevlyans. Killing Oskol Dyurovich (Dzyurovich / Yuryevich). Descendant of Kiy, the governor of the Khazars. Kiev was a frontier fortress of the Drevlyans. Slavutych, which was captured by the glade together with the Khazars.

      Is it possible in more detail? Rather, the details themselves don't really interest me, I'm more interested in "where the fireballs come from" ... Where did this information come from?
      1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
        Andrey Krasnoyarsky 24 March 2021 14: 28
        +3
        I will answer you instead of the author of this passage: from the fantasies of some regular semi-literate folk historian. Well this is necessary, it turns out that the pagan Askold had a patronymic Yuryevich. And Yuri is a Slavicized form of the Christian name George. And all the other fables about Slavutich, Drevlyansky Kiev and the milk of a dead cow with viper venom are not noted even in fairy tales, not to mention written sources.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 14: 32
          +1
          Quote: Andrey Krasnoyarsky
          from the fantasies of some semi-literate folk historian

          It was interesting which one. smile I do not have time to follow them all, so I hope for the help of their followers. If you don't know the enemy by sight, then you should know at least by name ... smile
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 20: 36
      +9
      Quote: knn54
      Such a poisoned Drevlyansky arrow with the venom of a viper (like they added milk of a dead cow to the composition) killed the "prophetic" Oleg, who was making a raider campaign to the lands of the Drevlyans. Killing Oskol Dyurovich (Dzyurovich / Yuryevich). Descendant of Kiy, the governor of the Khazars. Kiev was a frontier fortress of the Drevlyans. Slavutych, which was captured by the glade together with the Khazars.

      Curious, but doubtful. Share the source.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 21: 02
        +4
        Vlad, welcome. hi
        Amused - we wrote two identical comments with a difference of three minutes. laughing
        Who is there, according to the school proverb, the thoughts converge? smile
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 12
          +7
          Hi Michael!
          At one time I bought a book for Velesov, read it with a bang! The only thing I did not find was anything reliable - another pearl with a claim to free cheese in a mousetrap with intimate secret knowledge !!!
          Here and here, but always like this - the fantasy splashes and emits vibes !!!
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 21: 25
            +8
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Veles's book, I read it with a bang!

            This revelation is not from there ... Or from there? I don’t remember already.
            I actually got curious. I don’t consider myself such a connoisseur of pseudo history, especially since these theories breed, multiply and mutate no worse than any coronavirus, but here the name "Slavutich" somehow interested me. Where is it from?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 40
              +5
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              This revelation is not from there.

              No Michael is not from there! New Slavism and neo-paganism are a vice of the modern gag of people from the realities of historical science far away. For example, I downloaded a collection of "Old Slavic" poems, where there were creative "chants of languid Magi" about an ax, a sword, a helmet and a chest.
              Well, you understand me! Although it should be noted that the pagan glorious had no hell !!!! And there were still not enough devils !!! tongue
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 21: 59
                +3
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                about an ax, a sword, a helmet and a chest.

                Ah ... Well, poetry, okay, this is possible.
                Oh you goy you good fellow heroic
                You walked about Kiev avenues
                Walked along the boulevards of Novgorod
                You were lying on the sofa in the mansion
                And now you lie in the damp ground
                With a craniocerebral trauma
                You gave your darling to the all-glorious Perun
                Due to bleeding arachnoid ...

                So somehow? laughing
            2. knn54
              knn54 22 March 2021 21: 51
              +2
              The source is Byzantine or Arabic. I don’t remember exactly, all the same it was 1981.
              I talked with an employee of the regional museum (Fergana Valley) and in parallel with a history teacher. He is Korean by nationality.
              By the way, I met the composition of the poison even earlier, but in some kind of artwork. And about the milk of a dead cow, too, amused.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 22: 04
                +2
                Quote: knn54
                The source is Byzantine or Arabic.

                If it's about poison, then consider it sorted out. I'm more interested in Oleg, Oskol and Slavutich. From what sources?
            3. Polymer
              Polymer 24 March 2021 11: 13
              +1
              The mockery of pseudo-historians is simply touching, despite the fact that this article is full of purely speculative assumptions:
              But it is quite possiblethat the proto-Slavs also passed the stage of such weapons as stone hammers

              Attention! , therefore, at the first stage, his weapon was stone, associated with a stone hammer

              then probably, they would use the bow of nomads or Romans

              Slavs could well use such tips as a by-product after nomad attacks

              Those. a bunch of assumptions and assumptions, but the author, shaking his regalia as a "true historian", does not see anything reprehensible in this.
              I am not at all a supporter of alternativeists, but before trampling them in the mud, it would be necessary for "real historians" themselves to abandon probabilistic conclusions and follow a strictly scientific approach.
              And here it is:
              Due to the fact that the blacksmith centers among the Slavs, according to archeology, do not appear earlier than the VIII century

              needs additional verification. It seems that the Slavs learned to extract and process iron from the swamps much earlier. Is not it so? Now there is no time, but I will definitely check.
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                24 March 2021 13: 58
                0
                It seems that the Slavs learned to extract and process iron from the swamps much earlier. Is not it so? Now there is no time, but I will definitely check.

                Check, check, open Wikipedia.
                1. Polymer
                  Polymer 24 March 2021 17: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                  open Wikipedia

                  Wikipedia is also possible, of course. But other sources also cannot be rejected. wink
                  And according to these very other sources, representatives of the Fatyanovo culture (D.A.Krainov) were also engaged in metallurgy. Iron, of course, they did not know yet. I understand that attributing them to the Slavs is too bold and even wrong, but genetic studies of recent years show that they are ancestors. Well, okay, let's leave alone the ashes of the Fatyanovites.
                  Further, representatives of the Milograd, Zarubinets, Dnepro-Dvinsk cultures have already precisely mined and processed iron - there are archaeological finds of both many products and craft workshops (V.V. Sedov). And this, for a moment, the XNUMXth century. BC e. - II century. n. e. You can say, of course, that the representatives of these cultures are not Slavs either. But were they the ancestors of the Slavs? After all, later on these lands we do not find anyone except the Slavs (the Balts are still included in the Dnieper-Dvinsk culture) - where did they come from, did they come from Mars? And with representatives of these cultures there is not only a genetic, but also a cultural connection. Such a very important marker, for example, as the rite of corpse burning.
                  1. andrew42
                    andrew42 24 March 2021 18: 45
                    +2
                    I read the article and remembered the song performed by Georgy Vitsin from the fairy tale "Finist-Clear Falcon":
                    I was born into the world - unkempt.
                    Since childhood, there is no happiness - it is not supposed to be ..
                    I am an orphan, an orphan, an orphan ...
                    In the concept of this article, all the Slavic warriors were exactly like that - stone axes and pointed wooden arrows.
                    The simple idea that hunting weapons and weapons of war are very different things used by people of different social roles - this idea does not come to the author.
                    The ancestors of the Slavs, the early Slavs, the same chipped off, apparently contacted both the Scythians and the Huns of Attila, who are unsurpassed archers in world military history. But at the same time, our ancestors were so incompetent (they lead to this) that they went to war with a simple bow for quails and hares. Well, except that the "good" nomads or Khazars supplied a more or less decent tip in the ass, which was a great success.
                    But about "Mjollnir" and "Lightning" interested.
                  2. Edward Vashchenko
                    24 March 2021 20: 39
                    +1
                    As usual, I will answer evasively, you are both right and wrong, following the highly respected V.V. Sedov.
                    But I would not, here is my subjective opinion, in this problem was not looking for a "black cat in a black room."
                    The first factor is the issue of the continuity of archaeological cultures, which you yourself have already mentioned. And I have been studying the historiography of the issue for about 25 years, and like any researcher, I have the right to conclusions, but the conclusions are simple: continuity is far-fetched, something was borrowed, something was not, but the genesis of the Slavs took place not so long ago, as the same writes Sedov, and philologists are also about this, the language is young, there is practically no access to the Indo-Aryans in terms of language, the ethnos was formed much later. How did this happen? One can only guess.
                    By the way, a good topic, there will be time and effort, I will write my fortune tellers here on VO.
                    We do not have data about the early Slavs on this account, as evidenced by such a minimal amount of iron products on excavations in such a vast territory.
                    About metallurgy, about iron mining, according to archaeological sources, I will give information in the next article, oddly enough, but in written sources (documents) we have more encouraging information on this score than in archeology. This once again confirms the promise of a historical idea (scientists, as they say, argue) that archeology works only in contact with written sources, and so, solid hypotheses.
                    And the key in this whole topic is the place where the early Slavs were. And this is a statement of fact, not a value opinion. The early stage of the tribal system, therefore there are no "forged swords", "plows" and "tractors". Each level of society has its own production relations, this is an axiom, no matter how many would try to challenge it.
                    Yours faithfully,
                    hi
                    1. Polymer
                      Polymer 24 March 2021 21: 54
                      +1
                      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                      the genesis of the Slavs took place not so long ago, as the same Sedov writes, and philologists are also about this, the language is young, there is practically no exit in language to the Indo-Aryans, the ethnos was formed much later. How did this happen? One can only guess.

                      The assertion that the Slavs are a very young ethnic group is still not logical. Yes, there are not enough written sources, but by the time these sources appeared, the Slavs had already occupied a vast territory and they already had a division into subethnos. This process is long, even for 300 years it could not go through. All this suggests that the ethnogenesis of the Slavs has not been sufficiently studied, and not that they "simply did not exist before." And there is no need to guess, we must continue to study.
                      Nobody disputes your right to draw conclusions, but it must be admitted that others have the same right. Even if their conclusions do not match yours.
                      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                      About metallurgy, about iron mining, according to archaeological sources, I will give information in the next article

                      That's interesting.
                      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                      The early stage of the tribal system, therefore there are no "forged swords", "plows" and "tractors". Each level of society has its own production relations, this is an axiom, no matter how many would try to challenge it.

                      Not an axiom at all. The production of carpets and fabrics in commercial quantities at BC, for example.
                    2. Illanatol
                      Illanatol April 1 2021 09: 06
                      +1
                      Plows go through the forest. Our ancestors used the plow even in the 19th century, not at all because they could not make a metal plow. We just knew that the plow is more suitable for our soils without causing erosion.
                      The level of technology does not always correlate with the level of industrial relations; vulgar Marxism is refuted at times. In the modern world, the real slaves can collect smartphones.
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 22 March 2021 21: 15
          +13
          And I was more interested in this recipe at what moment it is necessary to milk a cow ...
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 22 March 2021 21: 33
            +6
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            And I was more interested in this recipe at what moment it is necessary to milk a cow ...

            I suppose, Anton, only after she introduces herself, otherwise a useful sports ointment will turn out rather ... wassat
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 22 March 2021 21: 45
              +5
              No, Sergei, if you take a cow infected with brucellosis, you don't have to wait for her untimely death.
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 22 March 2021 21: 50
                +4
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                if you take a cow infected with brucellosis, then you can not wait for her untimely death.

                Yes, perhaps this is also possible hi and add anthrax drinks
              2. Lynx2000
                Lynx2000 23 March 2021 07: 55
                +5
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                No, Sergei, if you take a cow infected with brucellosis, you don't have to wait for her untimely death.

                If the "enemies" had infected someone with brucellosis, they probably would have waited a long time for the result ...
                Even in his youth in Gorny Altai, he treated himself to arachka and ate smoked cheese with kurut, hard as laundry soap, after 10 minutes his stomach was twisting. This is an instantaneous bacteriological weapon. wink
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 22 March 2021 22: 51
              +4
              Quote: Mihaylov
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And I was more interested in this recipe at what moment it is necessary to milk a cow ...

              I suppose, Anton, only after she introduces herself, otherwise a useful sports ointment will turn out rather ... wassat

              This option is also possible: milk collected from the first, in the life of a cow, milking was stored in an airtight container, in a cool dry place, until the cow dies on its own from old age ... I think that adding viper venom to this substance will even be somewhat redundant. )))
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 22 March 2021 22: 59
                +4
                Quote: HanTengri
                stored in an airtight container

                Now the history of the origin of the Slavic pot is being clarified. hi
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 March 2021 08: 03
                +5
                in an airtight container,
                This condition is imperative for the production of botulinum toxin.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 22: 26
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            And I was more interested in this recipe at what moment it is necessary to milk a cow ...

            The student trainee, holding the bull "Vuzuvila" by the horn with his right hand and slapping it on its mighty back, joyfully shared the future. Now we will milk this Zorka and live happily ever after. A two-year-old bull was squinting at the student with a purple eye and apparently deciding what to do with the trainee for such blasphemy. Immediately gore or enjoy an attempt to find an udder from him and only then stamp him with a hoof!
        3. Richard
          Richard 23 March 2021 18: 03
          +5
          such a poisoned Drevlyansky arrow with the poison of a viper (like the milk of a dead cow was added to the composition), the "prophetic" Oleg, who was making a raider trip to the land, was killed

          I doubt very much that the Slavs used for this such an acutely scarce product at that time, like milk (there were not many cows, mostly goats and bright ones) The death of a cow was a great grief for the tribe. And they hardly "milked" the snakes
          Around, and so it was full of sources of poisons - and vegetable (herbs and mushrooms), and mineral (mercuric chloride and mouse potion - arsenic), and organic (corpse). But cadaveric poisons were not prepared from cows, but from ... fish
          In the surviving chronicles, testifying to the poisoning of certain high-ranking officials, most often information about which particular poison was used is absent or incorrect.
          This is how one of the chroniclers described the death of Prince Dmitry Shemyaka, who died of poison in 1453: "... die in vain from the poison of fish potion, in which the tmrk people suffer"
          ... "They drown - they dunk, tmrka (tamarka) - an arrow," Die in vain "then meant only one thing - murder.
          In fact, it later turned out that fish poison had nothing to do with it, although this indirectly confirms its use in battle by the Russian army
          Shemyaka was poisoned with arsenic
          Only in the twentieth century, when scientists Kozlova and Krylova studied the remains of Dmitry Shemyaka, it became clear what kind of substance the poisoners used. This poison turned out to be arsenic, or as it was called in Russia "mouse potion". One of the indirect signs of arsenic poisoning is the mummification of a corpse, which happened to the body of the Grand Duke. The fact is that arsenic dehydrates the body, which leads to mummification. Thanks to this circumstance, some of Shemyaka's internal organs were also preserved so much that scientists found 0,21 milligrams of arsenic in their tissues. While the background rate is 0,01 to 0,08 milligrams.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol April 6 2021 13: 52
            0
            There is no need to cook cadaveric poison. Sticking an arrow into the remains of animals (humans) or excrement for a couple of hours is quite enough.
            This was used infrequently. Weapon characteristics affect tactics. Poisoned arrows are adequately used in partisan operations (the Slavs were very skillful as partisans). The poison does not act instantly, in an open battle it is of little use - the enemy will have time to respond. Wound him (or his horse) from an ambush, hide and wait for the poison to work.
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 22 March 2021 21: 03
        +11
        a poisoned Drevlyansky arrow with the poison of a viper (like the milk of a dead cow was added to the composition), the "prophetic" Oleg was killed

        I would take basilisk saliva and mix it with bonacon feces: believe me, it will be much more effective wassat
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 22 March 2021 21: 13
          +10
          I would also add:
          "From a dead donkey's ears" (C)
          I think it's no less effective than "dead cow milk"
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 21: 22
            +7
            Quote: Mihaylov
            I would take

            Quote: 3x3zsave
            I would add

            Wait, giggle already ...
            A person will now bring sources and you will be ashamed!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 22 March 2021 21: 29
              +7
              Wait, giggle already ...
              I haven't started yet!
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 44
              +5
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Wait, giggle already ...
              A person will now bring sources and you will be ashamed!


              The potentially dead cow of the cat Matroskin will file a complaint with Grette Trumberg and Trkmbler, so I can't remember her last name.
            3. Pavlos Melas
              Pavlos Melas 22 March 2021 21: 48
              +4
              I would take basilisk saliva and mix it with bonacon feces: believe me, it will be much more effective

              I would also add:
              "From a dead donkey's ears" (C)
              I think it's no less effective than "dead cow milk"

              On topvar it is already possible to open an alchemist's circle, who should only be assigned to the role of Professor Snep? laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 10: 00
                +4
                who should only be assigned to the role of Professor Snep

                Anton 3x3zsave, these constantly building solutions interfere with their own greedy method, he is no stranger to it. wink drinks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 23 March 2021 10: 37
                  +2
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  constantly interfering with mortars according to his own greedy method, he is no stranger to

                  Nikolay, "The solution is insidious!" drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 10: 44
                    +4
                    Nikolay, "The solution is insidious!"

                    Sergey, good morning! drinks It depends on what and how to interfere. wink
                    - Was there a conversation about me?
                    - Was ...
                    - What did they say?
                    - They said that you mix port with vodka!
                    - So what?! He said to him, and he: "Cocktail, cocktail" ... Uuuuu, shaggy hippie!

                    (film "Autumn Marathon"). laughing
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 23 March 2021 10: 51
                      +4
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      Sergey, good morning! drinks It depends on what and how to interfere.

                      It will be correct to interfere:
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 54
            +6
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            I would also add:
            "From a dead donkey's ears" (C)
            I think it's no less effective than "dead cow milk"

            Uh-huh Anton - have you ever tried your mother-in-law? They say a weapon of selective action !!! tongue
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 22 March 2021 21: 58
              +5
              I tried it, I developed a strong immunity.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 22: 06
                +4
                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                I would also add:
                "From a dead donkey's ears" (C)
                I think it's no less effective than "dead cow milk"

                Uh-huh Anton - have you ever tried your mother-in-law? They say a weapon of selective action !!! tongue

                Quote: 3x3zsave
                I tried it, I developed a strong immunity.

                Now you can demand free milk - for the harmfulness of the "production process" !!! drinks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 22 March 2021 22: 24
                  +4
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Now you can demand free milk - for the harmfulness of the "production process" !!!

                  I would be more careful with milk: the devil knows what kind of cow it is ... wassat
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 22: 40
                    +3
                    Quote: Mihaylov
                    I would be more careful with milk: the devil knows what kind of cow it is ...

                    Two options for an answer! The first is the horned one? The second one is furry! True, there is still a third option - a neighbor's.
                    Now no joke, presenting the way of the ancient Slavs and realizing the value of the domestic cow. I think for such blasphemy as the use of "dead milk", I'm afraid the society did not understand corny. Also the sides were crumpled !!!
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 38
              +4
              Considering that the name "mother-in-law of the tongue" is sansevieria. It is named after Prince Raimondo de Sangro. And he was still a magician.
          3. Hantengri
            Hantengri 22 March 2021 22: 32
            +5
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            I would also add:
            "From a dead donkey's ears" (C)
            I think it's no less effective than "dead cow milk"

            This is an option for the lazy, because removing the ears of a dead donkey is much easier than milking a dead cow.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 21: 26
          +7
          It's like in an anecdote - district drug addicts standing along the green fence, what are you waiting for? When ripe!
          So it is in reality "from a criminal chronicle in the evening newspaper." Three neophytes were caught in a terrarium with a snake named "Vasya", while trying to teach the latter to spit. Five adherents of the "Nyuchronolozhtsy" were hospitalized in an extreme degree of exhaustion. The presence of thirty night "vases" in patients and a page from a textbook with a picture of a bonacon did not help to establish from the motives of the patients.
    3. Flooding
      Flooding 22 March 2021 22: 54
      +2
      Quote: knn54
      the "prophetic" Oleg was killed, making a raider campaign on the lands of the Drevlyans

      "And they called Oleg the Prophetic, since the people were pagans and unenlightened"
      (Tale of Bygone Years)
      Let's write all the nicknames of the rulers with a small letter and quotation marks, which is already there.
      "kalita", "long-handed", "big nest"
  7. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 22 March 2021 19: 30
    +10
    Something is doubtful about the poison.
    Poisons must be produced, stored, carried with you,
    to dip the boom at the right time.
    Do not poison yourself.
    Organic poisons are unstable. How to prepare in an amount sufficient for
    battles?
    Only in a single application, in rare cases, I admit ... recourse
    Weaker bow? I just had to get closer.
    ----
    And why does the author think that all these arrowheads are precisely arrowheads,
    not darts. The throwing spear - the dart - was the cheapest and most common weapon
    antiquities.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 19: 38
      +8
      Alexey welcome! on darts in the previous article.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 23 March 2021 16: 43
        0
        It should be noted about our ancestors as the discoverers of this type of spear like a spear from a mammoth tusk. At the excavations of the Upper Paleotic site of Sungir, near Vladimir, they found a spear from a straightened mammoth tusk, the technology of making the spear is unknown, so ours were still arms manufacturers, since the 30th century BC. Probably complex bows were also known to them.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 24 March 2021 19: 17
          -1
          I was mistaken by an order of magnitude, from the 300th century BC, 30-40 thousand years ago.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 19: 44
      +7
      Darts were approximately 1,2 m to 1,8 (2) m in length ... more often from 1,5 m to 1,8 m ... and their heads were generally "more massive" than arrowheads ...
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 20: 39
        +5
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Darts were approximately 1,2 m to 1,8 (2) m in length ... more often from 1,5 m to 1,8 m ... and their heads were generally "more massive" than arrowheads ...

        Well, our everything is still a street, the length of which rarely exceeded 1,2 meters.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 21: 33
          +6
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Well, our everything is still a street, the length of which rarely exceeded 1,2 meters.

          Why is it rare? It is believed that the "usual" length of the sulitsa is 1,2-1,5 meters ... By the way, the length of the tips to the sulitsa is up to 20 cm, and the weight is up to 100 grams. ... This is for comparison with arrowheads! And by the way ... much less often, but there were also "heavy" sulitsa with a length slightly exceeding 1,5 m and with an "armor-piercing" tip, which could slightly exceed the weight of the tip for a "normal" sulitsa! Sulitsa belonged to light darts, but heavier long darts 1,5 - 1,8 meters long (sometimes up to 2 m) were widely used ... By the way, the famous Roman pilum is a kind of "heavy" dart.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 22: 13
            +3
            I don’t know Nikolaevich. The Slavs have equestrian armament for war. The length of the rod is over 120 cm, already redundant. And so a meter on the shaft and 20 cm on the tip - that's it.
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 22: 21
              +4
              Duc, sulitsa was used not only by equestrian warriors ... sulitsa is a common name in Russia for a throwing spear as a whole!
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 22 March 2021 22: 39
                +3
                According to Kirpichnikov:
                Sulitsy represent a cross between a spear and an arrow, that is, they are usually smaller than a spear and larger than an arrow. Their length is 15-20 cm (rarely more), the length of the blade is 8-12 cm, the diameter of the sleeve is 1,5-2 cm, while in the spears it is 2,5-3,5 cm. The shaft of the sulitsa was not only thinner penny, but shorter. As directed by L.K. Ivanovsky, the length of the dart shaft is 1,2-1,5 m, while the spears are 1,8-2,1 m.

                A dart length of 1,8 - 2 meters is unlikely.
                In addition, the growth of the warriors must be taken into account. Which was probably different from that of a modern person.
                1. Nikolaevich I
                  Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 22: 51
                  +2
                  Quote: Flood
                  A dart length of 1,8 - 2 meters is unlikely.

                  Long ("heavy") darts of 2 m were much less common than "heavy" darts 1,5-1,8 m long; that's why, probably, they were not remembered very much, since there were few of them ... but "heavy" (long) darts (1,5-1,8 m) are mentioned in various sources! I think you dug shallow!
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 22 March 2021 22: 59
                    +3
                    Quote: Nikolaevich I
                    I think you dug shallow!

                    I referred to a reputable scientist
                    at one time dug on an expedition
                    not only from wood, from iron almost nothing remains. footprint in the ground.
                    probably should have been deeper, but there was no one to tell
  8. forty-eighth
    forty-eighth 22 March 2021 19: 31
    +10
    Thanks to the author! In the modern dominance of the Aryans, Tartarii and other Hyperboreans, who almost flew to the moon 10 thousand years ago, this article is like a breath of fresh air!
  9. Vadim Golubkov
    Vadim Golubkov 22 March 2021 19: 49
    +1
    By the way, there are more burial mounds in the Moscow region than in Ukraine in the whole. There are cards.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 20: 36
      +9
      Quote: Vadim Golubkov
      There are cards.

      Excellent!
      Let's take them to the studio - both in the Moscow region and in Ukraine. And I will try to pull out and pull up the same thing about Belarus. It will be interesting. smile
      1. Vadim Golubkov
        Vadim Golubkov 24 March 2021 09: 30
        0
        You can see it on the Internet. I'm writing from the phone.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 March 2021 20: 42
      +8
      Quote: Vadim Golubkov
      By the way, there are more burial mounds in the Moscow region than in Ukraine in the whole. There are cards.

      Moscow region during the period described by the Author, the area of ​​residence of the Finno-Ugric peoples. There was no smell of Russian spirit and Russia yet. laughing
      1. depressant
        depressant 22 March 2021 21: 28
        +8
        In an attempt to challenge the "injustice of history" in popular literature, groundless evidence is presented that the Slavs nevertheless successfully used the complex bow they had mastered almost since the time of the "Scythian plowmen". At the same time, forgetting that the use of one or another weapon is directly related to the formation of the worldview, environment and the level of production of one or another ethnic group during the tribal formation.


        It is logical!
        However, more than once or twice I had to come across the opinion that the flight of the arrow of the Russian archer was farther than the flight of the arrow of the European warrior, and the combat bow in Ancient Russia was distinguished by the greatest design complexity - the so-called retroflex four-bend bow, which gave it the shape of the letter M, at the same time, the length of the Russian combat bow with the bowstring stretched over it averaged 1,3 meters.
        I remember that illustrations for Russian fairy tales, read a very long time ago, depicted just such a bow, and not a simple, arched, requiring a poisonous tip for an arrow, without which the bow is ineffective. Then, apparently, the question must be posed as follows: in what period of the existence of Ancient Russia were such complex bows used? It looks like not in the land of the Berendeys?)))
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 22 March 2021 21: 48
          +5
          Quote: depressant
          Then, apparently, the question must be posed as follows: in what period of the existence of Ancient Russia were such complex bows used?

          They were already used in the XII century - here is a genuine bow, dated to the XII century from the Novgorod Archaeological Museum:
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          22 March 2021 22: 01
          +5
          Then, apparently, the question must be posed as follows: in what period of the existence of Ancient Russia were such complex bows used?
          Absolutely right! The article deals with the early Slavs, and the same XII century, from the point of view of the development of weapons, is a completely different era. S including in terms of technological capabilities.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 23 March 2021 22: 33
        +3
        And when did the first Russian spirit appear in the Moscow region? With the first Vyatich? Krivich? Or Slovenes Ilmensky brought it?

        And where is the border? Today's administrative office? So even in our memory they were redrawing.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 March 2021 04: 28
          +1
          The conditional point of the report, Sergei, probably should take the no less conditional date of the appearance in the chronicles of Suzdal, Vladimir on Klyazma, Pereslavl Zalesky and Moscow itself.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 March 2021 06: 29
            +4
            That is, the urban Russian spirit?
            Will the settlement not be counted?

            But the first Vyatichi burial mounds in this region will probably be a hundred years older.

            I agree that the chronicle is probably the beginning of "historical time".
            But the "Russian spirit" is difficult to document.

            Is that the diet. But here everyone has their own preferences.
            1. depressant
              depressant 24 March 2021 11: 13
              +2
              I guess the boundaries are due to the swampy terrain.
              Good day, Sergey! )))
              You will not believe it when, quite a long time ago, in the early years of His Majesty's accession to the throne, I settled here, in the Moscow region, between the five-story buildings it was rather swampy, even reeds grew! And then I remembered from the school history textbook that because of the inconvenience of these wooded and at the same time swampy lands, no one pushed in here, and therefore Moscow rose and strengthened.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 24 March 2021 15: 44
                +2
                Good afternoon, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                Yes. Outskirts, woodland.

                “Someone knew that Moscow would be known as a state” (c).

                And what swamps are in Meshchera!
                1. depressant
                  depressant 24 March 2021 16: 19
                  +2
                  Meschera is to the east of me, and as far as I know, the residents of Psoglav live there. Therefore, I do not undertake to investigate that area for the presence of swamps. Or do you have reliable information? laughing )))
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 24 March 2021 19: 48
                    +2
                    Yes. Meschera - native land. Always glad to come there.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 24 March 2021 21: 22
                      +4
                      Oh yeah! Places sung in Russian prose. There were such titanic paragraphs that they can be used to study the climatic and landscape features of the area. Is Meschera really so beautiful? Looking around, in my suburbs, I do not find beauty. Roads, asphalt, windbreak in forests, houses, cars. And only when you go out to the loggia in late spring, when everything is still fresh, blooms profusely and obscures architectural deformities with lush crowns shining in the sun, you are surprised at the seasonal beauty of Russian nature, its idyllic personality. But it pleases the eye only for a short time, quickly wilting under the onslaught of cold weather. It gets wet, chilly, grows dull, reveals the skeletons of trees, puts on a snow cloak - brr! We've got these changes of the seasons!
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 24 March 2021 21: 32
                        +4
                        When you leave 90 km from Moscow railway stations, you breathe differently.
                        After the 2010 fires, about 120 thousand hectares of spruce forests have dried up.

                        Country roads are beautiful to me. True, now, more and more fences are blocking.

                        Delightful are the pines of Meshchera and Priokskie pine forests, KF Tyurmer's larch trees, rivers and streams, zapatka around trees, young foliage, the smell of sticky buds and the rustling of autumn leaves underfoot.
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 24 March 2021 22: 06
                        +3
                        I remember this summer of 2010. Choking in the thick smoke. I looked at the birches under the windows and thought: how will they light up? And tire swans in the flower beds. Burning rubber is something. Nothing caught fire. But only those who had the opportunity to leave remained healthy. The urban landscape is life-threatening, anti-human. And, I remember, it was during those times that I suddenly felt that not a single square meter beneath me was such that there, in the depths, in the soil layers, to which archaeologists would never reach, the bones of my ancestors would not lie - those killed in wars killed in the hunt, in random skirmishes, bogged down in swamps. They lie in layers mixed with animal bones - who were they? It will seem strange to you, but I always remember these people. Under my feet lies my Ancient Rus - the one that fired from bows, once quite simple.
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 24 March 2021 22: 48
                        +3
                        You should, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, write fantasy, dark, in the style of "Caskets with darkness" by Ursula Le Guin. I think it would have been no worse.
                      4. depressant
                        depressant 24 March 2021 23: 28
                        +3
                        Well no...
                        Best of all, the problem of memory was outlined by Kinchev - no fantasy before him will rise to his high, connecting times, poetics.

                        Bless on war
                        Save and save the house.
                        So going on a hike
                        Military people of Russia.

                        So, from the beginning of time,
                        Grace is given to the soldier
                        With God is safer to live,
                        It is easy to die with God.

                        The trail of a star is dusting along the roads
                        There is peace and quiet sadness in my soul.
                        From time immemorial borders on God
                        My Light Russia.

                        How much strife and confusion
                        Veda Mother Motherland,
                        How they wanted to bend us
                        How they tried to break us.

                        How many jackals and dogs
                        Rocking around
                        To the gold of our breads
                        On the gold of our icons.

                        What the fathers collected
                        We were taught to take care -
                        Faith of the home side
                        Song, prayer and sword.

                        So it happened from the roots,
                        The military service is
                        Everyone at their turn,
                        Monk, warrior and fool.
                      5. Undecim
                        Undecim 24 March 2021 23: 52
                        +1
                        I'm not talking about the problem of memory, fantasy has nothing to do with it. I mean that talent is lost.
                      6. depressant
                        depressant 25 March 2021 00: 23
                        +3
                        I am working hard to make it disappear! wassat ))) laughing ))))
                      7. Undecim
                        Undecim 25 March 2021 00: 36
                        +1
                        I am working hard to make it disappear!
                        And then we wonder why Samsonovs and Frolovs are around.
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 25 March 2021 04: 00
                        +4
                        But there are a lot of interesting people around too.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 25 March 2021 07: 44
                        +3
                        Viktor Nikolaevich, the Samsonovs and the Frolovs have conditions for creativity, whatever creativity it may be. I have no such conditions. After all, the main thing is the presence of a small circle of circumstances that give your soul freedom. Including for creativity. I am under heavy oppression. Do you think I came to VO two and a half years ago just like that? No! I naively believed that by public demands directed to political power, I could solve the problem that was overwhelming my life. Did not work out. The worst thing is that in order to free my soul from the oppression of life's circumstances, I can't even die, I have to carry my cross to the end. And let's not talk about it.
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 25 March 2021 03: 58
              +3
              Try not to remember.
              It is no coincidence that there is something in the annals, but the years of the fires were regularly noted.
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 25 March 2021 07: 57
              +2
              No, it won't show up.
              Even the stories of modern cemeteries are thought-provoking.
    3. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 25 March 2021 10: 34
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      and there, as far as I know, the people of Psoglav live.

      Oh, and I thought that the cinephals were already extinct hi
      1. depressant
        depressant 25 March 2021 11: 02
        +2
        And you look around! ))))
        Kinoids and Reptilians - they are already everywhere, they are among us wassat
        I have read an article in which, in all seriousness, it was said: "Look at this photo ... Look closely? Do you see a certain person next to the President of the United States? This is a reptilian!" But our life is such that - yes, you begin to believe in all kinds of aliens. Sometimes you look at the phone screen, and you involuntarily want to ask - no, not at your own reflection in the glass, but at the one who is shown to me: "Where are you from, my dear? From what moon did they fall to us? On an excursion, and then home?" "
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 25 March 2021 11: 09
          +2
          Quote: depressant
          Kinoids and Reptilians - they are already everywhere, they are among us

          That's not much yet.
          The medieval world of creatures was much more diverse:
          satyrs, androgynes, six-fingered, sirens, hippocentaurs, gorgons, harpies, incubi, snake tails, minotaurs, lynxes, leopards, chimeras, mice with sticky snouts, letting fire from their nostrils, catfish, centipedes, hairy reptiles, salamanders snakes, echidnas, two-headed with jagged ridges, hyenas, otters, magpies, crocodiles, hydrophores with horns like saws, toads, griffins, monkeys, psiglavtsy, circulators, mantichors, vultures, moose, weasels, dragons, hoopods, owls, wasokos , vipers, wart-legged, scorpions, lizards, whales, staff snakes, amphisbens, flying boas, dipsads, flycatchers, predatory polyps, moray eels and turtles
          hi
        2. depressant
          depressant 25 March 2021 11: 39
          +3
          Colleague!!! Hats off to your erudition! And I ask anxiously: have we lost our scent for the species and subspecies of others? I'll have to use your calculation as a reference, adding to it the characteristics of the relevant individuals in order to skillfully determine who lives behind my walls and take appropriate security measures hi wassat )))
        3. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 25 March 2021 11: 42
          0
          Quote: depressant
          Colleague!!! Hats off to your erudition!

          Thanks for the compliment, but I didn't show any erudition.
          This is a quote from "The Name of the Rose" by U. Eco, chapter "The First Day. SIXTH HOUR,
          where Adson is studying the portal of the church, and Wilhelm, after a long separation, sees Ubertin of Kazalsky " hi
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 March 2021 16: 09
    +2
    Sergei, in principle, yes, if you take the Moscow region in a broad sense. The fact of the simultaneous coexistence of Slavs and Finno-Ugric tribes on the territory of the future Vladimir-Suzdal land is not disputed.
    I really missed the factor of the beginning of the pagan expansion of the Slavs to the east. The Slavs and local tribes did not have serious contradictions and were not marked by wars in the annals.
    I suppose that the intensity of the development of the eastern lands was influenced by many factors, from religious to the steppe threat.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 24 March 2021 19: 51
      +2
      We still know little about those times. And the temporal rings, no matter how beautiful they are, are clearly not enough.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    22 March 2021 23: 42
    +3
    Incorrect formulation of the question of which burial mounds we are talking about, each archaeological culture has its own burials. Mounds, long mounds, hills. The Vyatichi (Moscow region) have their own burial places, the meadows or the Drevlyans have their own. What to compare then?
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 41
      +4
      In the Moscow region there are burial mounds - both Vyatichi and Krivichi. It is believed that the approximate border of the Klyazma River.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 22 March 2021 19: 56
    +5
    The above data confirm the reports of written sources that the early Slavs used a small wooden bow.

    I will add some comparative ethnographic material, I think it will be appropriate for this article.
    Sioux bows:


    Iroquois:

    From the collection of the Kunstkamera St. Petersburg
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 20: 09
      +7
      Thank you, the same story about poisons, Litavrin has an article about poisons among the Byzantines, V.V. Kuchma is also written about them in the comments to the Strategicon, but all this is about the Romans.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 23 March 2021 16: 34
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Litavrin has an article about poisons among the Byzantines

        Found about poisons among the Scythians, from Greek sources naturally:
        The first such statement is found in one of the students of Aristotle in the essay "On miraculous rumors." “It is said that the Scythian poison, which the arrows are impregnated with, is obtained from the echidna. Scythians ... lie in wait for ... cubs, catch them and leave them to rot for several days; when it seems to them that everything is rotten enough, they pour human blood into a pot, close it and bury it in the manure, and when this also decays, the watery sludge that forms over the blood is mixed with the pus of the echidna and makes a deadly poison. "
        In the scholias to the work of Nikandra "Antidote" (II century BC) it is said: "... such a poison is called archer because it kills immediately like arrows ...; Scythians, shooting from bows, smear them with arrowheads, ... it is called Scythian poison "
        Lucian of Samosatsky: "Scythian arrows are smeared with poison"
        Ovid Nazon: "... there is an absorbed poison in the volatile gland", "... in order to double the cause of death with a cruel wound, all arrows are smeared with snake venom"
        Gaius Pliny Secundus wrote that “the Scythians moisten arrows with the poison of snakes and human blood. It is an inevitable evil weapon and it brings immediate death even from the slightest touch. "
        1. Richard
          Richard 23 March 2021 18: 07
          +2
          Found about poisons among the Scythians, from Greek sources naturally:

          Greetings hi
          in the internet there are many articles about the poisons of ancient Russia. The same arsenic for baiting rodents was used widely and everywhere among all segments of the population.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 23 March 2021 20: 59
            +1
            Quote: Richard
            The same arsenic for baiting rodents was used widely and everywhere among all segments of the population.

            Good evening, it should be noted and not only for baiting rodents, if you remember the unfortunate Shemyaka hi
      2. Richard
        Richard 23 March 2021 18: 13
        +4
        Today, thanks to science, we know that cadaveric poison does not possess any magic. It's all about the substances it contains. These are toxins: cadaverine, putrescine and neurin, as well as various infections and microorganisms that can cause sepsis, that is, blood poisoning.
    2. depressant
      depressant 22 March 2021 21: 34
      +10
      From the collection of the Kunstkamera St. Petersburg

      I made such bows and arrows as a child! It was cool and very scandalous in terms of the consequences. wassat lol ))))
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 22 March 2021 22: 03
        +5
        Quote: depressant
        It was cool and very scandalous in terms of the consequences.

        Just about, so the Slavs with Toper turned out wassat
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 March 2021 20: 20
    +7
    For a long time, different Slavic peoples have called and call belemnites, the fossil remains of extinct cephalopods, resembling a hollow arrowhead, by the arrows of Perun.
    In the Vladimir region they were called "devil's finger", in the villages they were considered a haemostatic and antiseptic agent.
    Thanks Edward!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 20: 36
      +6
      Anton, welcome! thank
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 42
      +4
      In the Belgorod region, they still often come across.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 20: 48
    +7
    Edward, my compliments. smile hi
    At first I did not expect anything good by the title of the article - I opened it and immediately at the end, to look at the author ... And then ... a red griffin in one of the pictures ... Really? Can not be! And only after reading the signature under the article he exhaled. I went into the kitchen, made some tea, and slowly began to read.
    Thanks for coming back. smile
    Question.
    Don't you think that
    analysis of the development of tribal mentality
    still not a good enough reason to draw a conclusion
    about the enormous practical and semantic meaning

    especially if written and archaeological sources do not support such a conclusion?
    And in the article itself, I confirm exactly of a huge I never saw the meaning.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 21: 06
      +8
      Mikhail good evening, glad!
      Good question. Researchers, starting with Fraser, Levi-Strauss, Levy-Bruhl, have collected a huge amount of material in order to show that things in a tribal society are closely related to the ideas of the living. I wrote about this in all previous articles. We know very little about Slavic weapons, but the understanding that they are interconnected, especially with weapons, is obvious. Perhaps I did not fully show this in this article, but all the articles of this cycle are rigidly sharpened on the fact of mental representations of pre-economic society, both the early Slavs and the Eastern Slavs before the XNUMXth century. inclusive.
      hi
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 21: 48
        +5
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        things in a tribal society are closely related to the ideas of the living.

        This is not in dispute, as is the fact that people "armed" their gods with the weapons that they used themselves.
        But on what basis can we conclude that at a certain period the bow and arrows were sacred weapons among the ancient Slavs? Or did I misunderstand the message of the article?
        From the article, it only clearly follows that the Slavs were familiar with the bow, but it seems to me that it is not necessary to say that the bow and arrows had any special meaning for them. Auxiliary - yes. Both in war and in everyday life.
        Perun is the god of thunder and lightning. Does lightning look like an arrow? A clap of thunder can be associated with a hammer blow. In lightning, you can see the blow of a spear from top to bottom. You can imagine Perun with both one and the other. But flying arrows are different. Rather, it is an attribute of one of the younger gods, Stribog, like the god of the wind, for example. He has a name, by the way, corresponding. smile
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          22 March 2021 22: 06
          +5
          Michael, as you know, from the sources we practically do not know anything about the pagan gods, crumbs, it is mainly - the reconstruction of philologists.
          I drew a parallel with Zeus, A.F. Losev convincingly proved his hypostasis: from the god of the elements to the supreme deity of the slave-owning society. It is the same with him and other Greek gods.
          Sorry to repeat:
          Perun (like another famous thunderer, Zeus) went through a series of steps. And it seriously changed at different stages of the development of the tribal society, which is more or less clearly outlined on the basis of the analysis of ancient Greek mythology. In relation to the Slavic God the Thunderer, we do not have such information in historical sources, but we have data on different types of his weapons.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 22: 19
            +4
            This is all clear and not disputed. Like Stribog, I suggested well ... just as an example. I could at least name Pozvizd. smile
            I can’t find the link in your reasoning that unites two objects - Perun and a bow with arrows.
            While Perun was "armed" with a stone, it is understandable. If then the "stone" turned into an ax or a spear, it is also understandable - the main tools of labor, hunting, war. But onions? It is clear that he was, but it is obvious that he was not the main weapon. Is it possible that the supreme god was endowed with an auxiliary weapon?
            Or, nevertheless, at some stage in the development of the Slavs, the bow should have become their main weapon - and then, it was during this period that Perun could receive it, or Perun himself at some point lost the status of the supreme god and therefore was endowed with a secondary weapon ...
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              22 March 2021 23: 37
              +4
              Michael, it seems to me, although we are already going far, due to the fact that the spear, which I write about here and in the previous article, did not become a sacred weapon among the Slavs, unlike the Germans and Celts. And we know about the bow, the rainbow of the god of the Bulgarians and Slovenes. Belemites, stone arrows of god, etc. All these small evidences speak of the connection of the conditional Perun, perhaps he had not yet been called that, with a bow.
              And finally, in Novgorod, the perun held an arrow:
              The idol had the appearance of a man, and in his hands he held a flint that looked like a thunderous arrow or beam. "
              And the bow and darts were the mass weapons of the Slavs, there was no other way. If not a spear, then a bow. Moreover, the "collective unconscious" always endows the deity with its main weapon.
              About clubs or clubs, I will reveal a secret, I wrote in the next article, but perhaps this is a weapon for a new period in the development of Slavic society.
              Objectively speaking, the Slavs have just appeared on the historical stage, which I have written about more than once, we do not know anything about any other weapon, but what we have archeologically is extremely scarce material, which I have listed all: 60 arrowheads and that's it.
              Thanks for the comments, I will work on the argumentation. hi
  • Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp 22 March 2021 21: 23
    +3
    And yet, what was used as a chemical warfare agent?
    Its performance must be very high, i.e. instant, at a very low dosage.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 22 March 2021 21: 40
      +8
      I see that many are interested in this question. Only hypotheses are possible here
      1. Viper poison. It is toxic enough, although not slaughtered. In a dried state in a refrigerator, it is stored without loss of properties for 30 years. Without a refrigerator, six months should have been enough. The ability to dry and then seal with water is very valuable. Vipers are available in marketable quantities. From one viper receive up to 5 milligrams of poison - a dangerous dose, although not fatal
      2. Poison is known only from (pseudo) Mauritius. Perhaps he simply exaggerated the lethality of arrows, and complications from wounds were caused by simple infections. About English archers in the Hundred Years War, the French also wrote that they often poison arrows. In fact, they stuck them in the ground in front of them for convenience before fighting, and therefore often caused complications.
      1. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 22 March 2021 21: 58
        +5
        Quote: Engineer
        Viper poison. It is toxic enough, although not slaughtered.

        The first manifestations after a bite are from 15 to 30 minutes - it will not work as a combat agent, during this time they will have time to "knock on the cap", and the dosage needs to be horse-based for a significant effect. Do not inject it with a syringe.
        Vegetable fast-acting poisons in our strip the same is not found.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 22 March 2021 22: 06
          +4
          The Slavs then often fought semi-partisan methods. Smear it thicker, shoot and dump. Mauritius has it. Viper poison will do just fine.
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 22 March 2021 22: 17
        +5
        They write that aconite is a very poisonous plant.
        And as if used to be applied to weapons.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 22 March 2021 22: 23
          +3
          An excellent candidate. I keep forgetting about him.
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 55
          +4
          Legend connects the origin of aconite with the saliva of Cerberus.
        3. Ua3qhp
          Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 09: 12
          +1
          The lethal dose for humans is from 2 mg.
          But the action time is from 30 minutes to 2 hours.
          Suitable for hunting, doubtful for combat. Well, injecting 2 mg of poison is a difficult task. You can't get off with a scratch.
      3. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 22 March 2021 22: 18
        +4
        Quote: Engineer
        Viper poison. It is toxic enough, although not slaughtered.

        I also think about it and nothing but vipers comes to mind, but deaths from viper bites, although there are, are rare and usually from anaphylactic shock. A portion of the viper venom is designed for a small animal, such as a mouse, etc. At our dacha, a viper bit the neighbor's Yokshire terrier and nothing is more alive than all the living. Maybe if you collect more, somehow concentrate - then or somehow strengthen its action. But everything is too complicated somehow. I have to ask chemists or biologists.
        The second option seems to be more obvious. hi
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 22: 11
      +6
      I saw a movie about the hunters of the tribe. majorune
      on the Amazon. Extremely primitive bows, dipping arrows in frog poison and shooting at local wild pigs, you cannot kill a pig without poison)
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 22 March 2021 22: 14
        +6
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Extremely primitive bows, dipping arrows in frog venom and shooting at local wild pigs,

        I protest: their frogs are poisonous, and our frogs are exceptionally peaceful and benevolent, and if you kiss, then a princess can turn out wassat
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 57
          +4
          Only if you remember the song of the Princess and the Scientist from "The Shadow": "The reverse process is taking place."
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 23 March 2021 09: 42
          +3
          Quote: Mihaylov
          if you kiss, then the princess can turn out

          Well, if you don't forget to kiss your wife regularly and give gifts, then your wife will make a princess! wink
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 March 2021 22: 19
            +1
            And to see 12 cows in it is the maximum ransom.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 23 March 2021 00: 56
        +5
        The cocoi frog is one of the most venomous creatures on Earth.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 22 March 2021 21: 53
    +3
    where the bow was both an instrument of labor and a weapon.

    Here he was a weapon, it is clear, but what kind of an instrument of labor was he?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 22: 11
      +5
      hunting)))
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 22 March 2021 22: 40
        +2
        Well, maybe, although a little attracted.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 22 March 2021 22: 03
    +1
    Quote: Engineer
    Confused by the bias towards Perun proper and his attributes

    Much better about Perun, about etymology, etc. is written by Yu. Petukhov in "The Roads of the Gods"
    And what about the weapons of the ancient Slavs, that is, illogicality in the author's statements.
    The ancient weapon of the Slavs is the bow. And this bow was simple and weak. According to the author. At what distance can such a bow with a bone tip be used to kill a hoofed animal, an animal? How can such a bow "sweep the defenders of fortresses from the walls"? Didn't the defenders of the walls have bows? And so the attackers were able to get close enough to "sweep the defenders off the walls"? Something doesn't fit with the logic. Poison? Is he instantaneous? A slight wound from such an arrow will cause the warrior to leave the wall? An arrow with a bone tip fired from a "weak bow" at such a distance will pierce a warrior's leather protection?
    The Slavs did not have iron arrowheads; they borrowed them from the nomads. An interesting passage.
    The sedentary Slavs, having a bow as their main weapon both for hunting and for battle, for centuries could not improve it, they could not make iron tips, they could not do anything. Isn't it strange? But the nomads could.
    Although it is generally known that crafts are developed precisely among sedentary peoples.
    Well, one more question - the author represents how many archers it takes to shoot arrows
    = like a cloud carrying hail, so [the barbarians] closed the vault of heaven with flying arrows and stones. " =
    The stones, as I understand it, were thrown by the slingers. That is, half of the warriors are not archers. So how many archers do you need? To darken the sun
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 22: 49
      +4
      Well, one more question - the author represents how many archers it takes to shoot arrows
      = like a cloud carrying hail, so [the barbarians] closed the vault of heaven with flying arrows and stones. " =
      The stones, as I understand it, were thrown by the slingers. That is, half of the warriors are not archers. So how many archers do you need? To darken the sun

      This was written by the author of the Miracles of St. Dmitry of Thessaloniki, or his successor, should he, the author of a historical source, redirect the question, but he will not answer, he still lived in the XNUMXth century.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 22 March 2021 23: 21
        +3
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        This was written by the author of the Miracles of St. Dmitry Thessaloniki

        The point is not who wrote, but who inserts the folk epic into a supposedly scientific article.
      2. Richard
        Richard 23 March 2021 18: 15
        +2
        Great article. Thanks, Edward
    2. Slavutich
      Slavutich 22 March 2021 23: 00
      +2
      Much better about Perun, about etymology, etc. is written by Yu. Petukhov in "The Roads of the Gods"

      Petukhov is a writer, he can fantasize anything. It is all the same that, according to A. Dumas, to study the history of the English revolution. laughing
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 22 March 2021 23: 25
        0
        Quote: Slavutich
        Petukhov is a writer

        It is not good not knowing anything about a person, to talk about him. Yes, he is thin. He wrote works, but also engaged in scientific work. I. Efremov was also a writer, and very good. But this did not prevent him from being a scientist paleontologist.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 March 2021 23: 50
          +6
          I can't resist.
          In those early, old years, when I was still commenting on Samsonov's articles, I repeatedly expressed my opinion about the so-called. "scientific" work of Yuri Dmitrievich Petukhov.
          In short - do not read, after reading - forget and be ashamed for the rest of your life. The overwhelming majority of his ideas about "superethnos", "Scythian-Rus" and other nonsense, for which one must seriously check for sanity, Samsonov drew from the works of Petukhov.
          Delusional fantasies based solely on other delusional fantasies of their own production. At the same time, mixed with a fair share of extremist ideas, close in spirit to German National Socialism - this is what Petukhov is all about. This is a real enemy, a convinced Nazi and profanator, cynical and unprincipled, relying solely on the illiteracy of its readers and their historical inferiority complex, formed as a result of the dominance of pseudo-historians of the "liberal" persuasion in book publishing and on TV in the 90s.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 23 March 2021 09: 43
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I can't resist.

            I can't resist either. Shameless, impudent slander against a person who cannot answer.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            At the same time, mixed with a fair share of extremist ideas, close in spirit to German National Socialism - that's all Petukhov is. This is a real enemy, a convinced Nazi and profanator, cynical and unprincipled,

            It is after these words that I will begin to relate with great respect to his "Ways of the Gods". Because there is nothing that you incriminate him in this book.
            And after that, I will not be able to treat you with respect, because I see a personal motive in your attacks on Petukhov. Where did he cross your road?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 10: 38
              +3
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              personal motive

              Nothing personal, except for my personal attitude to to any a profanator from history, be it Fomenko, Klesov, Pyzhikov, Petukhov, Kungurov, Chudinov - I don't care. Here, I have forgotten Panasenkov. I write about all of them in the same way, put them on the same level and I am ready to answer for every word I say.
              I repeat once again: Petukhov's works are based solely on his fantasies and assumptions, and therefore can be regarded exclusively as fiction. They are designed for people who are extremely poorly acquainted (or completely unfamiliar) with historical science in principle, plus those suffering from a complex of historical inferiority, forcing them to invent a new, more, in their opinion, "worthy", "cool" history.
              It's time to recover from this disease. We have a beautiful, deep, varied, interesting and rich history without weaving the painful fantasies of irresponsible graphomaniacs into it.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 23 March 2021 11: 21
                -1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                a profanator from history, be it Fomenko, Klesov, Pyzhikov, Petukhov, Kungurov, Chudinov - I don't care. Here, I have forgotten Panasenkov. I

                Why isn't Yevgeny Spitsyn, a friend, colleague and colleague of Pyzhikov, on this list?
                All your insinuations are unsubstantiated. And you don't even try to prove them. Because as soon as you start doing this, then your failure will immediately be revealed.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 12: 12
                  +2
                  Spitsyn is not on the list because I personally did not bother to familiarize myself with his works, unlike the listed authors. Perhaps, if it’s really boring and nothing to do, I’ll watch a couple of videos with his performances.
                  Do you want me to criticize the writings of these characters? This is absolutely unnecessary. There is a lot of material on this topic, made much more professionally than I could have done. You have not read them, have not watched them, have not listened and are not going to, as far as I understand. So why then spend time on this matter to me personally? Will you read me? Am I really more authority for you than real scientific specialists? laughing
                  I can answer your specific question if you are interested, but do not demand from me fundamental works in the genre of "commentary on VO". smile
                  1. Edward Vashchenko
                    23 March 2021 14: 00
                    +2
                    Michael! And you are doing great, I would love to read your criticism, you have both style and syllable. hi
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 14: 47
                      +2
                      Thanks, Edward.
                      There is only no desire to study this rubbish. To understand that you are being offered to try rubbish, it is enough just to smell the dish, and, in any case, to eat one spoon will definitely be enough. But in order to understand all its ingredients, you will have to eat this rubbish completely. I do not want.
                  2. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 23 March 2021 14: 35
                    +1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    You have not read them, have not watched them, have not listened and are not going to, as far as I understand.

                    As always, you misunderstand. Yes, I didn’t read it, but not because I don’t want to, but because I didn’t meet any intelligible, without insults, well-reasoned criticism of Petukhov, Klesov, as well as those suspicious for me personally, FiNov, and others.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rTE0ldtfk
                    Here's a look at how the historian Yuri Afanasyev criticizes Finov "with good reason". Do you call this criticism? Is Afanasyev a historian?
                    I am not an admirer of FiNov, but I want to read real criticism, with arguments, not in the style of yours - the fiction of a crazy writer, but scientific ones that have an evidence base.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    but don't demand from me

                    I demand only one thing from you - do not offend people who have a different opinion from yours.
                    And I will be very grateful for the links, from which I will draw not insults, but scientifically substantiated, well-reasoned criticism, for example, the same Petukhov.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 14: 43
                      +2
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      links, from which I will draw not insults, but scientifically grounded, well-reasoned criticism, for example, the same Petukhov.

                      I'll try to search.
                    2. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 16: 07
                      +1
                      Here, offhand - what happened. Long time to look for lack of time, excuse me.
                      There are general points, not personally according to Petukhov, but I think it will be useful.
                      https://antropogenez.ru/article/697/
                      Here it is already substantively according to his constructions:
                      https://fabulae.ru/note.php?id=32584&N=1
                      https://vk.com/topic-32482446_33778983
                      You can find more, although there are certain difficulties in connection with the prescription of his works. It is already irrelevant.
                      1. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 10: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        https://antropogenez.ru/article/697/

                        = In the last decade, under the popular sauce of patriotism, smoothly turning into chauvinism and nationalism, publications, films and Internet resources of a pseudo-historical nature have been actively promoting on the Russian book and information market. =
                        A promising start. The main thing for "real historians" is first to accuse opponents of all conceivable and inconceivable sins. Start your accusatory speech with this.
                        And, one remark, when it is argued that the Jews are the most ancient people, and that all people descended from them, then Chubur sees neither chauvinism nor nationalism.
                        = Doctor of Historical Sciences P.M. Zolin unexpectedly moved from studying the socialization of the economy and the use of monuments in the ideological and educational work of the Soviets and the RCP (b) to composing a "history" of Russians in the Paleolithic and other primitive eras. =
                        Well, this one, you know, Zolin, had no right to do what A.A. Chubur did not give him permission to do.
                        = So, among the parahistorians of primitiveness, we see at least three certified philosophers with doctoral degrees, a doctor of medical sciences, a doctor of psychological sciences (co-author Zolina is the "high priest of the Rus" hypnotist VM Kandyba), two candidates of technical sciences, and one doctor of historical sciences , though from the cohort of graduates of the departments of the history of the CPSU, which itself was a parahistory. Not a single archaeologist. =
                        So it turns out that the trouble is - there are no archaeologists among them !!!
                        But Petukhov, by the way, took part, and not in one, archaeological expedition. Well, that certainly doesn't count.
                        = Only Yu.D. Petukhov designates the ancestral home of Homo sapiens, if not Africa, but at least the Middle East, noting that =
                        Actually - Altai, if my memory serves me.
                        I have doubts - but actually Chubur read "By the ways of the gods?"
                        Everything, nothing more about Petukhov, I did not find in this opus. I can’t say anything about the others - I haven’t read their works. Pay attention - there is only one phrase about Klesov.
                        The whole article - "horses, people mixed up in a heap" and a set of general accusatory phrases and no specifics in the evidence. Expected.
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 11: 20
                        +1
                        General article about the methodology of pseudo-historians. I warned you about this - what were you waiting for?
                        Wish you could benefit from it. Apparently certain categories of generalizations present some difficulty for you.
                      3. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 11: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master

                        Wish you could benefit from it. Apparently certain categories of generalizations present some difficulty for you.

                        "Certain categories of generalizations" allow you to form an opinion about a specific one? About a work or a person? Are you serious? And I think this is a superficial glance.
                  3. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 11: 21
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    https://fabulae.ru/note.php?id=32584&N=1

                    There is something to think about. I need to get it "By the Roads of the Gods" and compare it with what Skrytimir Wolf wrote (!)
                    I do not like phrases taken out of context.
                  4. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 11: 21
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    https://vk.com/topic-32482446_33778983

                    Server not found.
                  5. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 11: 33
                    +1
                    I checked it works.
                    Look at here:
                    https://vk.com/wall-32482446_115742
                    Or this:
                    Science fiction writer, pseudo-historian and linguist Yuri Dmitrievich Petukhov (May 17, 1951 - February 1, 2009)
                    It is recalled that in the 1990s his fantastic epic novel in 5 volumes "Star Revenge" (1990-1995) was popular among fans of science fiction. One of these books, The Sword of the Almighty, completed the Star Revenge series. The main character is the Russian space marines warrior Ivan, who is thrown into one of the "otherworlds" by the corrupt authorities of the planet Earth. Ivan survives fierce battles and returns home, where, together with his friends, overthrows all political regimes.
                    Its action takes place in the XXV century, when the Earth is occupied by space aliens who are trying to use earthlings in the form of biomass for their monstrous experiments. One of the leaders of these uninvited guests is a certain Avvaron, the lord of the underworld. He is opposed by Ivan, who does not part with his pectoral cross. Christian Ivan is patronized by a pagan sorcerer, inspiring him to exploits with his stories about the glory of ancient pagan ancestors.
                    On the path to victory and Truth, Orthodox Ivan is by no means led by Christ, but by Indra, Krishna and Odin, over whom the White God soars. And Ivan is strengthened in this struggle by indissoluble ties with ancestors - "you must be strong not only by your strength, but by the strength of all your grandfathers, great-grandfathers, ancestors, all your Family, from which you came out." Yuri Petukhov listed these ancestors, "the army of Svyatorussk", among which for some reason there are "Rasen-Etruscans", Tavro-Scythians, Thracians and some "Yarii from the Indus valleys", Celts and Vandals, and even "Arkaim squads".
                    However, unfortunately, Yu. Petukhov became famous not only as a science fiction writer, but also as a linguist and falsifier of history.
                    In particular, he argued that the inhabitants of Yarmo (a Neolithic settlement in Mesopotamia) and Choirokitia (a Neolithic settlement in Cyprus) were Rus.
                    Quote from Petukhov's book: "Rus Yarmo were farmers. They grew wheat, peas, barley, lentils ... Long before that, like other Russes (even Protorians and Boreals), they domesticated a dog ... Continuing the tradition of Rus-Boreals , the inhabitants of Yarmo made figurines of the mother goddess, Rozhanitsa-Lada, from clay.
                    ... The Rus of Khirokitia built roads - they paved a two-kilometer path from the settlement to the sea. No one then on the whole planet, except for the Russians, did not build roads and could not even think about their necessity (neither the hunters, nor the gatherers, nor the goat herders needed roads). This construction, carried out by the Russians for the first time in world practice, was a serious achievement for that time.
                    Choirokitia was distinguished by the high quality of buildings, thoughtfulness of "engineering and architectural" details, such as thresholds, sheds, steps, the consistency of dwellings and outbuildings with each other, the correct ratio of buildings to the main streets along which they stood. All this speaks of a higher level of organization and intelligence of the Khirokitians.
                    ... Noteworthy is the fact that here, on the island, none of the works of small plastic art can be called a god or an idol. Jewelry, toys, models ... but not a single fetish idol. A rather ridiculous version that the Russians, Slavs, and indeed the peoples of the Indo-European language family for thousands of years worshiped some kind of clay or wooden dummy that fit in their palm, a version imposed on the world by scholars-"biblical", with the sole purpose - to elevate only one people with a supposedly "monotheistic" religion and to belittle other peoples, supposedly "worshiping stumps and idols", does not stand up to the slightest criticism.
                    ... The etymology of the toponym "Choirokitia" is clear enough. It, as well as in many toponyms of the Rus, contains the root "yar-". This is not immediately apparent at first, unprofessional glance. Therefore, we will give an example. The capital of Crete (root-base "cover-hide"), the city of Herakleon - from the original Hirakleon-Herakelen, which means belonging to Hercules (the city of Hercules, more precisely: Heraclin). The initial "x" in "heracleone", and in "heracles", and in "choirokitia" is a late aspirated dialect sound. The etymology of the name "Hercules" is "Khara + Kleos", that is, a tracing paper from the Rus language "Yaro + Slav" (for example, "Gerovit" is a derivative of "Yarovit", an indisputable scientific fact). Consequently, Herakleon and Khirokitia in the original, original pronunciation sounded like Yarakleon-Yaraklin (in the Slavic version of Yaroslavl) and Yarokitia-Yarokheteya. The second component of the toponym "kitiya-kheteya" is more difficult to etymologize. But it also has a clear Indo-European sound-meaning: either from "ket-get-gat", that is, "road, paved path, paved square" ("to lay gati", etc.), or from the ethnonym "Hitt-Hitt-Geta" ". In any case, the origin of the name of the city of Khirokitia from the Rus language is obvious.
                    (Yu. Petukhov. The origins of the ancient Rus.http: //mreadz.com/read378576/p64)
                  6. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 12: 43
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    ... The etymology of the toponym "Choirokitia" is clear enough.

                    I am a layman in linguistics, so I eat whatever is served. I ate and went to the toilet, without any consequences. Those. I do not pay attention.
                    "Space" fantasy by Petukhov; I started reading, I don’t remember what exactly, I didn’t like it and therefore stopped reading it.
                    In addition to "The Roads of the Gods" I read, it seems, "The Son of Crohn". Not bad, not bad. That's all.
                    Those. As you probably already understood, I am not a fan of Petukhov, in spite of the fact that I liked "By the Roads of the Gods". I just do not like unfounded statements. Your link to Hidden Wolf is noteworthy. Because there is at least specifics. But, on the other hand, why should I trust the Wolf more? In matters of linguistics. On what basis should I admit that he is right?
                    Further. What Petukhov writes in works of art, he, as an author, has the right. For any piece of ART is a fiction of the author. And to mix in criticism the scientific views of the author and his thin. works, I think it is not correct.
                    Our dialogue was useful for me. hi
                  7. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 12: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    why should I trust Wolf more? In matters of linguistics

                    You don't need to trust anyone. But on the issues of linguistics there is an excellent article by Anatoly Zaliznyak "On professional and amateur linguistics". Try to read it - it is written simply and clearly, without abstruse terms.
                    https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya_biblioteka/430720/O_professionalnoy_i_lyubitelskoy_lingvistike
                  8. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 13: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    excellent article by Anatoly Zaliznyak

                    I know not by hearsay. I have no respect for this person.
                  9. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 14: 01
                    +1
                    Your will.
                    But in my opinion, this is a real scientist, the way he should be. Not forgetting, along with his scientific work, on a global, without exaggeration, planetary scale (in his field, of course), to engage in educational activities for neophytes.
                    And what, let me ask you, is your attitude to his person caused?
                  10. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 16: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master

                    And what, let me ask you, is your attitude to his person caused?

                    In short, it will turn out as you did with Petukhov. I don’t want to. And for a long conversation, I have neither the time nor the desire. Sorry.
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 14: 23
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Science fiction writer, pseudo-historian and linguist Yuri Dmitrievich Petukhov (May 17, 1951 - February 1, 2009)

            Did he really write all of the above?
          3. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 14: 29
            +1
            I wrote. And not only this. If you do not want to get acquainted with his works directly, Samsonov presents them to us in a simplified form in his stories at the "super-ethnos". Verbatim. Broad quotations (albeit without reference to the source). laughing
          4. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 14: 31
            +1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            If you do not want to get acquainted with his works directly

            I do not want hi
          5. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 14: 36
            +1
            I looked, I looked exactly, at one time "By the paths of the gods", it is impossible to read this thoughtfully. It’s true, it’s not a joke.
            And I am simply touched by Samsonov's tender and touching attempts to combine in one pot the works of Fomenko with his Tartaria and Petukhov with his "Boreal Rus" ... It's really fun. Although sad too. smile
          6. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 14: 39
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            And I am simply touched by Samsonov's tender and touching attempts to combine in one pot the works of Fomenko with his Tartaria and Petukhov

            Thanks to you, now at least I will know "who all these people are." hi
            My knowledge in this area is limited to Gumilev. wink
          7. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 15: 00
            +1
            Quote: Mihaylov
            Gumilev

            It all started with him, as it seems to me. The commercial success of his books in the early 90s. Well, yes, he will not be remembered by that ...
          8. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 15: 15
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            It all started with him, as it seems to me. The commercial success of his books in the early 90s. Well, yes, he will not be remembered by that ...

            You know, I have a book lying around, it seems the end of the 80s, or maybe the beginning of the 90s: and there were already Asgards and all that, I don't remember the author. Then it all began.
            As for Gumilyov - in principle, I would even classify him as a scientific theories, in any case, he is not like this whole company. He has some really interesting moments and the problem of the geographical factor in history deserves the closest attention. Claims against him are known, there is no point in repeating it.
            But in the 90s all this was terribly popular, and now it is a fact of historiography. hi
          9. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 15: 26
            +2
            For me, Gumilev is precisely that transitional link from pure science to pseudoscience. I have a certain respect for this author, yes, many of his thoughts deserve attention and discussion, but ... all the same, it is impossible. He inherited too much creativity from his parents, too ... smile
          10. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 15: 33
            +1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            For me, Gumilev is precisely that transitional link from pure science to pseudoscience.

            I agree, I just want to emphasize that now "no one tears his throat for him and does not beat his muzzles" as before, that is, he has peacefully sunk into the past.
            With all the characters listed above, it will be also and most likely even much faster. hi
          11. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 23
            +1
            Specific characters - to hell with them, but they also breed like cockroaches. One will dry up - others take his place and their work lives on. And he lives because there is no reliable scientific information on issues of interest to people.
            Where did the Slavs come from?
            Who is Rurik?
            Why did the Mongols come and defeat everyone?
            And so on ...
            People are offered simple answers to difficult questions and they accept them. But you can give just as simple, but CORRECT answers to the same questions. This is where the problem is.
            Gumilev wrote simply and clearly. Fomenko writes even easier. Petukhov, with whom we started here - generally a science fiction writer, wrote not simply, but primitively.
            Where are our "historical" cadres who would speak simply, clearly and correctly?
            Appear, of course. Zhukov, Chernyshevsky (Savromat), Yakovlev (Digital History), just recently stumbled upon the Red Something channel, I don’t remember, there young guys generally tell a story in the style of almost Satyricon, but they tell, in general, as far as I can tell , right ... I'll take a closer look at this channel, maybe I'll subscribe.
            In general, the struggle is going on, but somehow the scope of Fomenko, Klesov and others is still far away ...
            But the victory will still be ours. We have conquered this resource from them by joint efforts. Nearly. smile
          12. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 16: 57
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            People are offered simple answers to difficult questions and they accept them.

            Yes, this is the essence of the problem.
            It will be necessary to somehow discuss this topic: the reasons for the appearance of this phenomenon, the mechanism of occurrence, the reasons for popularity, etc.
            Surely many have thoughts about this. Personally, I see a religious basis in this phenomenon: did you notice that the adherents of all this behave very much like religious sectarians? hi
          13. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 18: 23
            +2
            Yes, the topic is interesting, if you write such an article, it will be a real trash. laughing
            And I also noted the similarity of the behavior of some (by no means all, but the most active) adherents of pseudo-historical theories with the behavior of religious fanatics.
            However, before writing such an article, it would be nice to do some research on the social composition of this, let's call it so, "communities". Age, education, property and marital status ... In short, draw up a portrait of a typical representative.
            I still have something like this:
            From forty years old (50-65), education is not lower than specialized secondary, technical, or familyless, or adult children living separately, average income, although there are also well-to-do ones. They became interested in history, as such, relatively recently, the first thing that came across were the books of just such authors. We are not familiar with scientific works on history. Basic knowledge at the secondary school level.
            Concomitant circumstances: severe psychological fatigue from "constant lies in the media", the so-called. "technical chauvinism" (like "all humanitarians are idlers") and developed "everyday logic" - the absolutization of one's own life experience, neglect of theoretical knowledge, inability to generalize.
            Any comments on the portrait? smile
          14. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 20: 01
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Any comments on the portrait?

            In general, probably not, I came to about the same conclusions.
            You can also note young people, there are also such people, but they are usually seen by a completely different level of knowledge, well, there are such people or not, or very few. And among young people there are many victims of modern propaganda.
            education not lower than secondary specialized, technical

            Basically, I think. Hence the idea of ​​human society as obeying strict logical laws: it should be so, period.
            In addition, one can also note the absence of a intelligible ideology in modern society, hence the desire to create one's own and believe in it or pick up a ready-made one, but since religion is not in vogue now, then all this goes into adjacent spheres, of which history is most favorable and convenient. But by the way, not only history, medicine is also full of this. hi
          15. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 20: 52
            +1
            Quote: Mihaylov
            the lack of a intelligible ideology in modern society, hence the desire to create your own and believe in it or pick up a ready-made

            Yes, and this is mandatory. And you are right, not only in history, to take the same flat-earthers or anti-vaccines, fighters with mobile communications and others, they are innumerable ... By the way, I also include the infection that has bypassed us so far - unconditional tolerance to everything, resulting in such ugly phenomena as this "Black Lives Meter", rabid feminism and other things simply unthinkable for me, such as gay pride parades.
            That is, adherence to pseudo-history and kissing the shoes of blacks are phenomena of the same nature, they simply manifest themselves in different ways.
            You need to think about it at your leisure.
            hi
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 16: 21
    0
    Quote: Mihaylov
    I do not want

    Correctly. Why have your own opinion if you can use someone else's. good
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 16: 40
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master

    Science fiction writer, pseudo-historian and linguist Yuri Dmitrievich Petukhov (May 17, 1951 - February 1, 2009)

    Fu, how ugly. Are we now talking about, even if speaking in your language, pseudo-history or a science fiction writer? It is not correct to mix two different kinds of activity.
    Would you, criticizing the work of paleontologist I. Efremov, start with words - a science fiction writer? After all, it sounds in a derogatory context.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 43
    0
    The evaluative opinions of the authors can be omitted. Understand the essence.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 11: 33
    +1
    Continued:
    Petukhov, in a linguistic spirit, argued that Palestine is in fact the land of the Pelasgians, that is, "white people:"
    "The toponym Palestine appeared no earlier than 1 thousand BC. As a result of the distortion of the ethnonym, the self-designation of the Philistine Rus in the newly formed Semitic-Hamitic proto-languages ​​(Philistine-Pelishtim-Pelasgi -" Pelasgi "from" Belaski ", that is," white "; and if the ethnonym "Pelish" - "Belish, Belyash" comes from the Russian "Belaska", then the toponym Palestine is Belestina, or rather, Belestan, Bely Stan or Stan Bely, Stan Belaskov-Pelasgov.
    There is a version that the toponym Palestine comes from the Old Russian Pale-stan, that is, Singe (scorched, hot) stan. But this is already from the category of "folk etymology" and another delight of lovers of "beauty". In real history, everything is simpler: "Stan of the Pelasgians" is "Pelasg-stan" = "Pela-stan" = "Pale-stan" = "Palestine". "Pelasg" = "pelyask" = "belyask".
    ... Most of the lands of the Middle East in 10 - 2 thousand BC. e. was called in one word. It has come down to us in the form of a “shape-shifter” (the result of the right-hand Semitic writing is another example of the transformation of the original toponyms, ethnonyms, etc.). This shape-shifter Surya (Syria), which is being restored as Rusia ... The true names of the lands of the Middle East inhabited by Indo-European Rus are Sury, Rus. The primary name of Jerusalem-Yershalem is Tier. This place name existed for many millennia before the Semites transformed it into Yershalem. In the word I-rusa we see a combination of two words "yariy-ariy" and "rus".
    The Russians themselves of that time did not know any other name for their country and did not add, of course, any adjectives to it. But in order to avoid confusion, we will sometimes do this in the future to distinguish between Middle Eastern Rus, Mediterranean Rus, Asia Minor Rus, Black Sea Rus, Iranian-Indian Rus, Siberian Rus, Scythian Rus, Central European Rus, Scandinavian Rus ... "
    (Yu. Petukhov. The origins of the ancient Rus http://mreadz.com/read378576/p65).
    Petukhov became famous for the purposes of a number of pseudo-historical works, such as “History of the Rus. 40-5 thousand BC ". Rus of the era of the "neolithic revolution". Rus to Eredu and Ubeida "(see the list of works on the pseudoscientific site" Academy of Trinitarianism "- https://pp.vk.me/c631423/v631423726/33459/4TIYTNuqdvE ..; these opuses are available at the link http: //www.trinitas .ru / rus / doc / avtr / 00 / 0124-00.htm).
    Yuri Petukhov argued:
    “We, the descendants of the Russ and Slavs, need to remember one immutable truth, confirmed by tens of thousands of facts, hundreds of thousands of toponyms, linguistics, archeology, anthropology, mythoanalysis - the Middle East, especially Suria, Palestine and the Mediterranean, is our home, our land, our ancestral home where our ancestors lived for thousands of years. Now the lands of our ancestral home are inhabited by young peoples, who have proliferated and forced our ancestors to the north and northeast, but this does not change the essence. " (Yuri Petukhov. Rus of Great Scythia. Http://fanread.net/book/6243170/?page=10)
    The famous researcher Viktor Shnirelman writes about Petukhov:
    “He picked up and developed the myth, set forth by Yemelyanov in“ Desionization, ”that the ancient Canaanites who once inhabited Palestine were the“ Rus ”who founded both Jaffa and Yarikho (Jericho). And he lamented that that the ancestors of the Jews, the tribes of nomadic pastoralists, destroyed “our ancient Jericho.” “We are the ones,” he argued, “whom the young and neighboring peoples, often invading our lands and expelling us, called Philistines, Canaanites.”
    ... Petukhov, not without malice, accused David of killing "our hero-knight ... Prince Goliath" by a thief's method. At the same time, accusing the "Semites" of usurping the cultural heritage of the "Rus", the author often attributed foreign gods to the ancient Slavs, generously distributed foreign territories to them and without a shadow of embarrassment included non-Slavic groups of the population in them. In particular, he made the Iranian gods Khors and Semargl the original Slavic gods, boldly recorded Rurik and his companions in the Slavs, declared the Hebrew concept of "angel" Slavic, not to mention the fact that he turned Sumerians, Hittites, Etruscans, Germans into "Rus" and many other ancient peoples.
    ... In the 1990s, having shown remarkable perseverance, Petukhov published his books prepared back in the 1980s. books in the style of fantasy, where the main pivot was the eternal struggle between the forces of Good and Evil. And although the action of these books supposedly took place in the distant future, this future was constantly intertwined and in the most bizarre way intertwined with the deepest past, where the Slavic magi and invincible heroes acted.
    Petukhov without regret forgot about his statements directed against racism, kulturtragerstvo and the idea of ​​the chosen people ... Armed with the ideas of "Russian Cosmism", he declared that the "ancestors-Ross" descended from demigods and heroes who came to Earth "in the form of cosmic radiation "and" struck the predatory, greedy, stupid flesh of the chosen two-legged at the genetic level ", endowing them with their spirit. “Ten millennia of Divine Breath! Hundreds, thousands of those originally chosen among millions of evil and cowardly animals! Genus created in Image and Likeness ”. These sages and heroes, like Prometheus, carried the light of knowledge to the “savages”, and they deified them, composed myths and legends about them.
    Now Petukhov was finally breaking away from the scientific ground, which he nevertheless tried to adhere to in his first pseudoscientific book on the history of the Indo-Europeans. He boldly picked up the myth of the Arctic ancestral home and the widespread settlement of "ancestors" in Siberia and further - to the Himalayas, the Near East and Europe. He painted grandiose waves of shepherds-warriors, “the chosen people”, light-eyed and fair-haired, who inhabited a large part of the Earth from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean and from the Polar region to Hindustan, Arabia and Nubia more than 40-30 thousand years ago. As if even then they were carrying the "fiery cross of Surya", the "sacred cross" above them.
    ... The author presented Jesus Christ and Christianity from a completely unexpected perspective. It turns out that Christianity is the most ancient Russian heritage, and the "Slavs" were "carriers of the cross" (the author explains: "brace", "swastikas") and worshiped "the one God of the Family" for at least 10 thousand years. Allegedly, even after the arrival of the Jews in Palestine, "Slavic Russian communities" were still preserved there, and it was from their midst that the Savior and his apostles emerged ...
    Petukhov interprets the ascetic activity of Jesus Christ in his own way .... He came to “return the accursed land to its holiness,” he came not to the “chosen ones,” but to the “rejected” who gave themselves up to evil “on those lands where he gave power to their children and where they lost it, having lost these lands under the onslaught of wild nomads ”. But his sacrifice in itself did not save the world from evil. But he awakened the twelve apostles, “fair-haired and light-eyed Ross,” who revived the world and created the Church of Christ, strengthening empires and burning out “evil spirits” (Petukhov 1998a: 335–336). Later, in the development of these ideas, Petukhov gave a new explanation of why Palestine is associated with the Holy Land ... According to Petukhov, it was about sad memories of those ancient times when the “southern Rus” were ousted from the Middle East by the “protosemites”. Allegedly, the northern magi, and then the Christian priests, kept the memory of the "original inhabitants" of the Middle East as "those who suffered from enemies for their faith." Supposedly, therefore, it would be more correct to call the Holy Land “Holy Russia”. In this extravagant version, Christianity loses its universal all-human meaning and turns into the religion of the "Ross". After all, the author saw almost the main mission of the Church in the fact that it “unites those who have forgotten that they are from the same Clan”. In other words, Petukhov tried in every possible way to bring Christianity closer to paganism and to impose pagan values ​​on it. He insisted that Christianity came to Russia as a "native blood faith."
    .... Now there is no longer any reason to oppose Christianity to paganism - after all, both of these religions were formed in the same "Russian" environment and are sisters, they have nothing to share. Secondly, “deicide” turns out to be a childish prank compared to the crimes that the Jews allegedly committed against the Russian people, occupying its “ancestral territory” in the Middle East and, in particular, in Palestine and appropriating its intellectual heritage336.
    ... reviving from oblivion the calls of the late Dostoevsky to seize Constantinople, Petukhov corrected the great writer - Constantinople should rightfully belong to Russia not because of its claims to the Byzantine heritage ("Moscow is the Third Rome"), but because, according to the concept of modern Russian neo-pagans “Troada from time immemorial was a Russian, Slavic land ...
  • Slavutich
    Slavutich 23 March 2021 11: 34
    +3
    Excellent company Klesov, Ponasenkov, historians of the fantastic genre or just liars.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 23 March 2021 13: 49
      0
      Quote: Slavutich
      Excellent company Klesov, Ponasenkov, historians of the fantastic genre or just liars.

      I would not risk putting Panasenkov and Klesov on the same board.
      Are you, as I understand it, a biochemist? Once Klyosov is a fantasy for you. Do you have any published work on biochemistry? Give a reference, at least one.
      1. Slavutich
        Slavutich 23 March 2021 16: 10
        0
        And what does biochemistry have to do with it?
        Are you an expert in history, do you read in Latin and Ancient Greek, or at least in Old Russian? Give a link to your works on history? laughing
        That's the trouble with the "lyric physicists" and biochemists, that they suddenly get into their heads that their methods for history are more correct and let's write "stories".
        The same Klesov himself may be neat, but his followers, write it’s gone ...
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 24 March 2021 10: 03
          +1
          Quote: Slavutich
          And what does biochemistry have to do with it?

          What, don't you even guess?
          Quote: Slavutich

          Are you an expert in history, do you read in Latin and Ancient Greek, or at least in Old Russian? Give a link to your works on history?

          Am I criticizing historians? I'm just asking questions. And I am eager to hear reasoned answers.
          Quote: Slavutich
          laughing
          ... it will suddenly occur to them that their methods for history are more correct ...

          Have you really read Klesov (listened to)?
          If - yes, then I have doubts about your abilities in the correct understanding of what was heard (read).
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 22 March 2021 22: 19
    +1
    I read it and how I got there - the Slavs appeared in the 5-6th centuries - you can stop reading everything. Unhappy Slavs - where did they come from !!! where were you before !! and why immediately in such a large number and immediately the siege of the cities went. Well, the author is a fan of neo-pagans or himself. To attribute the sacred meaning of the Slavs and a very great antiquity to the military god of the warriors-warriors. You must be able to do this.
    And for general information --- a complex compound Glued onion appeared in the basin of the Caspian Sea in the 9th century AD (according to archeology) And in another place it could not appear because of a special key raw material - glue.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 22 March 2021 23: 33
      +1
      Quote: Vlad-world
      Unhappy Slavs - where did they come from !!!

      How from where? They brought it from Alpha Centauri. laughing
      All "scholarly historians" know about this, but you do not even know. laughing
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world 23 March 2021 12: 16
        +1
        So they "learned historians" from Tau Kita and "Mongol-conquerors" transported zero transportation belay Together with horses that do not require fodder, they drove a uranium rod and ride for two years laughing
    2. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 08: 02
      +1
      Quote: Vlad-world
      And in another place, it could not appear due to a special key raw material - glue.

      What kind of glue?
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world 23 March 2021 08: 08
        +2
        The so-called fish glue. More precisely, the swimming bladder of the sturgeon. Beluga, stellate sturgeon, sturgeon.
        At one time, Khazaria was the monopoly supplier of this glue. At this point in time, literally worth its weight in gold.
        1. Ua3qhp
          Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 12: 28
          +1
          There are not so many sturgeon today. And the demand for fish glue is low, the industry prefers synthetics.
          And sturgeon not only in the Don and Volga with tributaries were found, but also in the Dnieper and Danube.
          1. Lynx2000
            Lynx2000 23 March 2021 13: 35
            +1
            Quote: Ua3qhp

            And sturgeon not only in the Don and Volga with tributaries were found, but also in the Dnieper and Danube.

            Even more ... sturgeon in the Irtysh (left tributary of the Ob), on the Amur. yes

            In the south of Western Siberia, weapons are also found in the mounds, incl. compound bows, dating of burials 3-1 centuries. BC.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 23 March 2021 15: 02
              +2
              Quote: Lynx2000

              In the south of Western Siberia, weapons are also found in the mounds, incl. compound bows, dating of burials 3-1 centuries. BC.

              Well, people with a developed culture lived in the south of Western Siberia. Unlike the wild Slavs, who were not even born in those days. laughing
    3. Lynx2000
      Lynx2000 23 March 2021 13: 26
      +2
      Quote: Vlad-world

      And for general information --- a complex compound Glued onion appeared in the basin of the Caspian Sea in the 9th century AD (according to archeology) And in another place it could not appear because of a special key raw material - glue.

      What do you think, on the vessel of which bow is the warrior pulling the bowstring, what kind of warrior, what age does he belong to?
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 23 March 2021 14: 35
        +3
        Quote: Lynx2000
        What do you think, on the vessel of which bow is the warrior pulling the bowstring, what kind of warrior, what age does he belong to?

        Scythians V-IV century BC A similar vessel is kept in the Hermitage:

      2. Vlad world
        Vlad world 23 March 2021 15: 39
        +1
        So dating questions to our "valiant" archaeologists. For them, for several hundred years, this role does not play. Especially if you need to justify something official. And our officialdom is not developed Slavs. They slurp cabbage soup. belay
        And who is the Scythians !! Whose predecessors. Like the Slavs and Russ. So why the author of the article shows other simple bows and you don't show him these images !!!.
        Although these images are more like toys. Chariots also initially had other functions - toys, escort to the other world.
        In the Ob, too, there is only local sturgeon with simple bows (from a flexible stick), so they hunted before the arrival of the Russians. There are samples in the museum in Omsk.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 23 March 2021 16: 23
          +2
          Quote: Vlad-world
          And who is the Scythians !! Whose predecessors. Like the Slavs and Russ. So why the author of the article shows other simple bows and you don't show him these images !!!.

          The Scythians are not related to the Slavs.
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          23 March 2021 17: 06
          +3
          And who is the Scythians !! Whose predecessors. Like the Slavs and Russ. So why the author of the article shows other simple bows and you don't show him these images !!!.

          The Scythians have nothing to do with the direct genesis of the Slavs, this is again a topic from B.A. Rybakov, no one takes it seriously, no continuity in archaeological cultures, etc.
          1. Vlad world
            Vlad world 23 March 2021 20: 48
            +1
            What is your categorical statement Nobody takes it seriously. I personally perceive. And there are many people. Maybe you will argue that the Scythians did not have agriculture.
            Yes, archaeological cultures - we like to divide one people speaking the same language. to different cultures. Almost one people lived on the territory of the Russian Plain after the exodus from India to their historical homeland. Under different names, the Scythians are the Slavs of Russ.
            If you refer to ceramics, then for your information - already the son of a potter molds dishes a little differently. Established by one professor from St. Petersburg. And even grandchildren, even more so. Moreover, the raw materials are different in different places. And there was no standardization in those days.
            Funeral customs among the people also change over time for various reasons. For example - an insight attacked the priest, the gods suggested, or some kind of epidemic.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              23 March 2021 21: 42
              0
              You have the right.
              But that's just an opinion. Just as I would argue that 7 + 0 = 70, is it logical? and mathematicians have no logic, whence it follows that 7 + 0 = 7, I believe in the first wassat
              1. Vlad world
                Vlad world 23 March 2021 23: 32
                +1
                Alas for you, but your categorical Nobody somehow hurts your eyes. And for information, during the time of Pushkin, the Slavs-Russians were taken out of the Scythians. And you Rybakov and nothing more.
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  24 March 2021 00: 40
                  -1
                  Vladimir, at the time of Pushkin there were no cars and airplanes, but serfdom. And science has come a long way in 200 years. And at the time of writing the Tale of Bygone Years, they thought that the earth was flat, this does not mean that any idea or hypothesis should be blindly believed. I have already written an article here on VO, what is the difference between the work of a historian and a writer about history, if interested, read it.
                  In science, this is called historiography, or which of the scientists said what on this topic, and each historian knows it very well on his topic, I say I can tell you a look at the Scythians from the time of Lomonosov, but why drag out all thoughts and nonsense for a general review ... Already the clowns pulled out Tartary, from deep ignorance. Something like this.
                  That is the problem with such discussions, that the historian knows all the professional literature, and the amateur reads a couple of books or the first article that comes across on the Internet and begins to prove that only he is right.
                  No offense hi
                  1. Vlad world
                    Vlad world 24 March 2021 08: 01
                    +1
                    Well, I have read more than a dozen books, monographs and sources on history. For the sake of the "generally recognized" official history Historians are lying the only way. They substitute some words for others - thereby distorting the story. An example is the replacement of the word Dress in the annals by an order of magnitude in textbooks and articles. And it is not necessary that it is the same thing.
                    An example - in a report to the German emperor it is said that the enemies left the area of ​​the Tang River. The historian writes that the river has not been established. We take another historian, and there - even before our era, the Greeks went to the Tang River and traded. Tan tanais is Don. And as you order it refers to the "true" official history. Another example - Christianity is officially taken from the Greeks. Hence, the words of church use should be from the Greek language. But the words of church use are from Latin. I asked one doctor specializing in church history, so he said in a fury that the books should be read correctly. And the whole answer.
                    And sometimes they carry such a blizzard - like Zapadlo was. So one candidate answered one question for me.
                    So the Tartaria appear. Although one Tartary appeared and was in the 13th century on the Russian Plain.
                    1. Edward Vashchenko
                      24 March 2021 08: 23
                      0
                      Another example - Christianity is officially taken from the Greeks. Hence, the words of church use should be from the Greek language. But the words of church use are from Latin.

                      By God, this is nonsense. We have both Greek and Latin words. Since the Roman Empire, the Christian Roman Empire was a Greco-Roman state in essence. Our service is not in Latin or Greek, but in Old Church Slavonic. Since the translations were made by Cyril and Methodius in her service long before the adoption of the Faith by the Russians. And even here they use the terms Greek and Latin or Latinized. I do not know with whom you are there communicating on this subject, but a lot of terms are transitional from one language to another. And at the time of the adoption of Christianity in Russia, both Constantinople and the Vatican had close contacts, however, Latin was not used in Byzantium for a long time, but there was no break of churches.
                      1. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 24 March 2021 09: 11
                        +1
                        Well, yes, nonsense for you. And in percentage terms, the advantage is also large in favor of Latin. But the officialdom from the Greeks was accepted, period.
                        Don't talk about Kirill's translations. During his diplomatic mission to the Khazars, Cyril read the sacred texts in the Slavic language and was very surprised.
                        And for what merits the service began to be conducted immediately in the Slavic-Russian language.
                        It seems that in those days the service was conducted in the Apostolic languages ​​and books were written in them. Here the French and the Germans in those days conducted services in Latin, and here at once, and in the Slavic-Russian language. There was not even a Greek period.
                        You start to understand and such ears come out.
                        And for information - the Scythian monks in the 4th century led theological disputes in Byzantium. They had their own faction. (Ecumenical Councils)
                      2. Illanatol
                        Illanatol April 6 2021 14: 00
                        0
                        Still, it is interesting how KiM created the Slavic alphabet based on the Greek alphabet. After all, the alphabet and the alphabet are two radically different language systems. How did they come up with the very concept of "alphabet"?
                        It would be logical to create a Slavic alphabet and not bother coming up with so many new letters.
                        By the way, and why?
                        Europeans, French and Germans listened to their masses in obscure Latin and did not leave. The first Bible in German appeared only in the time of Gutenberg, and even then the first edition was destroyed. And the "backward Slavs" have such an honor - divine services in their native language and their own written language.
                      3. Vlad world
                        Vlad world April 8 2021 22: 25
                        0
                        Well, we have it as usual - the Slavs of Russia are Backward people, period. Everything was brought to them by other nations. It was in this vein that Kirill allegedly created the alphabet. In this vein, Christianity from the Greeks seems to have been accepted. And the services were immediately conducted in Russian and the books were already written. And after all, both the services and the books should be written in those days only in the Apostolic languages. As was the case in France, in Germany, etc.
                        Actually, the Russian language was recognized as Equally Apostolic language 80 years before the "adoption" of Christianity from the Greeks by Vladimir. Think about it. As we show history.
                  2. Edward Vashchenko
                    24 March 2021 08: 38
                    -1
                    Historians lie only in this way.

                    Historians lie no less and no more than everyone else.
                    How did you find out about the Tang River, what language did you read it in?
                    Tanais, Don or not Don, how did you find out, collated all the sources in the original language, starting with Herodotus? Or maybe Tanais is the Nile? Volga? Where, from what historical monuments does it follow? How did you translate it, what lists did you compare?
                    If historians did not translate sources into Russian not only from Latin or Ancient Greek, but even from Old Russian, how would everyone know about this?
                    I repeat, in order to professionally argue with a historian at the same level, I'm not about "writers about history", you need to be able to read in the source language, by the way, someone has already written about this, and I am in the Article about historians on VO. Or know the methodology of how archaeologists work or read hundreds of books on anthropology. The "great debunkers" know nothing of this and are not able to.
                    Now write about Ivan the Terrible and discussions about who and how he killed, comparisons with St. Bartholomew's night, and where is all this read ?, in Wikipedia ?, the historian is about the exact knowledge of sources, most often in the original language.

                    I am sure that the overwhelming number of skeptics and the page will not be translated from the Chronicle, and the letter of Peter the Great, written in cursive in Russian, by the way, will not be read into life if there is no translation into the modern language nearby, but to talk about what historians do not understand, please ...
                    1. Vlad world
                      Vlad world 24 March 2021 09: 37
                      +1
                      When professional historians could be counted on the fingers of one hand, the times were wonderful for them. Write what you want. Friends of the German academicians will not mind. This is how the foundations of a lie for Russian history were laid.
                      Well, then and at the moment like mud. And they give out a lot of information, and besides, it is not coordinated. And all sorts of inconsistencies and direct lies creep out. And when they come across this, then a howl rises - you don't know, you don't understand other labels. As if people are fools. But continuity in officialdom is a big thing. Academics pull those who support their opinions. A step to the left, a step to the right - deprivation and shutdown of oxygen.
                      Well, I read the chronicles in those passages that interested me for a long time. Fortunately, I have a good textbook on the Church Slavonic language.
      3. Lynx2000
        Lynx2000 23 March 2021 22: 01
        -1
        The Scythians are most likely a conglomerate of tribes, which included representatives of the Mongoloid type. He spent the whole winter in Altai, previously there was no time to visit the National Museum named after V.I. Anokhin in Gorno-Altaysk ... In January, an exposition dedicated to the excavation of the Pazyryk burial mounds was opened. In the section devoted to the weapons of the Scythians, a combat bow was exhibited, composite. This is not the 9th century. AD ....
        1. Vlad world
          Vlad world 23 March 2021 23: 24
          +1
          Pancake. Composite Glued Onion. Glued from two types of wood. With glued-on conductors for elasticity. Bone linings Do not give elasticity and do not increase the force of the shot, but only to protect against mechanical damage. I can’t say anything about the mounds — I haven’t read it. The reliability of archaeological dating is very Doubtful. But there are no others yet. And so they twist in the light of officialdom and neither. By the way, the local population what bows they owned before the arrival of the Russians. Simple flexible sticks, but it seems if the heirs of the Scythians should be complex.
          And most likely not. But in our country it is impossible for the European-Slavs to be smart, so they include either the Türks or the Mongoloids. For information, the names of horse equipment among the Altaians come from the Russian language.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol April 6 2021 13: 43
            0
            In a compound bow, the center part could be reinforced with horn plates to make the bow tighter. The middle part is supposed to be more rigid than the "horns".
            It is believed that composite bows appeared even among the Hittites, and from them - among the Egyptians.
            1. Vlad world
              Vlad world April 8 2021 21: 56
              0
              Opinion may be, and they had a special fish glue .. I repeat, at one time Khazaria was a monopoly supplier of glue. On an industrial scale at the time.
              Somehow archaeologists dug up an arc of a glued onion that had been lying in the ground for at least 400 years, so it not only bent perfectly but also did not come loose - glued wood. Whatever the shaft does not lead during the drying and wetting process, it is best to make it from two different types of wood.
              And how do you think the horn plate will withstand the same number of bending cycles as a tree.
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol April 9 2021 09: 15
                0
                And it was about a different time.

                Industrial scale is not always required. The glue recipe could be different, we do not know for sure, such "know-how" was kept in strict confidence.
                The middle part of the bow was rigid, could not bend at all or bend very weakly. Mainly the "horns" are bent. In addition, the horn works great in compression (the horn was attached to the inside facing the bowstring), surpassing any tree.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 22: 37
    +4
    I wanted to put on the page a little material about Russian bows; as it seemed to me that in this article about bows it was stated rather insufficiently and very simplified! But then I decided that my addition would not be enough ... the bow is worthy to write a very extensive and detailed article about it, which I advise "gunsmithing writers" ... I am sure that you can write an interesting article! I have to leave the VO pages before the next day ... so I have no time, litter!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 22: 47
      +3
      Vladimir,
      about the bow of the early Slavs, we know only what is stated in the article, nothing else, at all. Found, as I wrote, only one pad. There is not much to write about here. Bows of the later eras are another matter, but even there archeology gives little, a lot of guesses. I write exclusively on historical sources, there are no sources, there is nothing to write about, this, alas, is an axiom. Here in the XVI - XVII centuries. many Russian bows, but the difference is more than 10 centuries.
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 22 March 2021 23: 03
        +4
        I had a hard day today ... I'm pretty tired, hence, perhaps, inattention! I did not notice that the article is about very early bows, somewhere in the middle of the first millennium! Therefore, I apologize! I must have material somewhere about Russian bows; incl. and about the early ones, but there is neither time nor energy to look at your "archive"! hi
  • BAI
    BAI 22 March 2021 23: 07
    +2
    Here
    https://perunica-ru.turbopages.org/perunica.ru/s/etnos/6582-slavyanskiy-kod-strely.html
    very good analysis of ancient Slavic literary sources at the expense of arrows.
    What can be highlighted in the literature:
    1. Poison for arrows was used snake:
    1.1. There are snakes very similar to the arrowhead

    1.2. Which is reflected in the legends:
    “And his (Vasily's) red-hot arrow flew,
    Like a snake exactly and under the skin"(AD Grigoriev." Arkhangelsk epics and historical songs ". Volume 3. SP 2003. №324" Vaska the drunkard and Butyga "; p.117).

    2. There were some double and triple arrows:
    “And the samodiva says:
    “Look you, Rabro-yunak,
    I'll send another arrow
    Another arrow, double
    Many wives this arrow
    Turned into combustible widows;
    I'll send a third arrow too
    Third arrow, triple ...! " ("Songs of the South Slavs. M. 1976." Rabro-Yunak and Samodiva. S. 49). In a footnote to this text, it has been suggested that this refers to arrows that are fastened together or have increased magical power.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 March 2021 23: 21
      +4
      Arrows from illustrations of Russian folk tales, such did not exist, from the word at all. laughing
      1. BAI
        BAI 23 March 2021 20: 48
        +2
        These are the heads of living snakes, not arrowheads.
    2. BAI
      BAI 22 March 2021 23: 28
      +3
      3.
      "Rain of arrows", "arrows flying like a rain-bearing cloud" is not the will and weapon of God?

      The article to which I gave the link provides a more complete description of the siege of Thessaloniki:
      eyewitness accounts of the storming of Byzantine Thessaloniki by the Slavs at the beginning of the 1995th century: “Slavic ships sailed two miles from the wall every day, looking for easily accessible places ... On the fourth day, with sunrise, the entire barbarian tribe simultaneously uttered a cry and attacked the city wall from all sides: some threw stones from prepared stone throwers, others dragged ladders to the wall, trying to seize it, still others brought fire to the gate, fourth sent arrows to the walls like snow clouds. And it was strange to see this multitude (of stones and arrows), which obscured the rays of the sun; as a cloud carrying hail, so (the barbarians) closed the vault of heaven with flying arrows and stones "(The Code of Ancient Written Records about the Slavs. Volume II (VII-IX centuries) M.129." Miracles of St. Demetrius of Thessaloniki "p. XNUMX) ...


      The drawing refers to later events, but it can be seen that the arrows were not saved.
      4. By the way, it is pertinent to note that the ability to shoot from a bow was obligatory or very desirable for the groom. Here you can also remember the frog princess.
      “Kali, the sons of pavyrastal, but father dau to the im pa luka I strale I skazau: - come out, sons, from the hut I pustsitse pustsitse arrows. Where palyatsi strala, there I shukayce sabe jonak. " (Charadzeinya Kazki. Minsk. 2003. No. 13, "Tsareuna-frog").

      5. The arrows served not only as a murder weapon, but as a means of communication:
      “He (Ilya) put the vet where the red-hot arrow was,
      Ishsh himself, he wrote on the arrows ...
      His red-hot arrow flew ...
      Ishsha here de Dobrynka picked up an arrow.
      Yes, on that arrow it would be signed:
      "... Help me to recapture the wrong force ..." (A.D. Grigoriev. "Arkhangelsk epics and historical songs. Volume 2"; SP, 2003; "No. 267" Conclusion of Ilya Muromets ").

      In general, the use of bow and arrow arrows was very diverse, which is reflected in the literature.
      The use of bows and arrows for cult purposes is a separate topic altogether. In general, a very interesting work (SLAVIC ARROW CODE), especially considering that the author is a woman (it is customary on the site to criticize women historians (Irina Frolova will not let you lie), sexism, however).
      1. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 08: 00
        +1
        I wonder what can be seen at a distance of two miles without optical instruments, or were the miles very different?
  • Denimax
    Denimax 22 March 2021 23: 11
    +4
    Although the bow is weak, you can keep your distance and inflict injuries. A wounded enemy is easier to defeat.
  • Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 08: 01
    +1
    Quote: Ua3qhp
    Slavic ships sailed two miles from the wall every day, looking out for easily accessible places ...

    I wonder what can be seen at a distance of two miles without optical instruments? Or are the miles slightly different?
    1. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 6 2021 14: 03
      0
      No, about the same. A mile is a thousand steps of a legionnaire. The Romans have one step - a left step and a right step.
      1. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp April 6 2021 16: 07
        0
        Those. about 3 km. Good vision!!!
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol April 9 2021 09: 17
          0
          Where is 3 km from? A step with one foot is about 70-80 cm. This means 1.5 km, approximately.
          1. Ua3qhp
            Ua3qhp April 9 2021 10: 38
            0
            Well, like in the army. Counting in pairs of steps, right, left, is one step, about 1,5 m.
  • Operator
    Operator 23 March 2021 10: 47
    +1
    Directly I see how one Proto-Slav condemns another Proto-Slav for using a spear when hunting an elk - like Perun without fail requires the use of some strel of "Proto-European origin" laughing
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      23 March 2021 11: 05
      +2
      strel "of Proto-European origin"
      laughing laughing laughing
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 23 March 2021 11: 43
        +1
        What is "European origin"? hi
  • Andobor
    Andobor 23 March 2021 12: 06
    +2
    The landscape of the Slavs - river valleys, the early Slavs on the rivers and fought, the point is to wave a spear on a boat,
    - an arrow, a sulitsa, which was what they hunted, they beat the fish, a knife and an ax for close combat, the same from the farm.
    1. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 23 March 2021 13: 49
      +2
      Sharp and fish and as a spear-trident completely.
    2. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 6 2021 14: 04
      0
      With a lead for a bear, wild boar or elk?
      A sure way to commit suicide.
      The main weapon of the hunter was all spears.
  • tacet
    tacet 23 March 2021 12: 24
    +2
    1. "... the most important weapon of Perun were arrows during the tribal system, on which the early Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries were also located. and Eastern Slavs in the X century"How then does the Zbruch idol (X century) fit into this? According to the official version, Perun is depicted on it with a sword and a horse."
    2.According to the arrowheads. On the practical side, flat tips (they are also cuts) could not be used in battle against a well-armed enemy, since they simply cannot penetrate even an inferior chain mail, and it is problematic to penetrate a weak bow and leather armor and poison will not help here. This type of arrowhead was most likely used for hunting big game (if it hits the target, it leaves a serious laceration. The victim will die from blood loss). Against the armor (I suppose the Byzantine troops were still in armor) an awl-shaped or triangular tip was used.
    Hence the variety of arrowhead types.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      23 March 2021 13: 56
      +1
      Vladimir,
      good day,
      when using this or that type of weapon, one should not proceed from the properties of the weapon, or only the properties of the weapon, we do not deduce the tactics of combat of a motorized rifle unit from the performance characteristics of Kalashnikov. In the case of the use of arrows by the Slavs, their tactics should also be taken into account, although, of course, everything is interconnected. That is why a number of articles in this series are devoted to tactics.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      23 March 2021 15: 56
      +1
      Vladimir did not answer the Zbruchev idol. We do not know anything about him for sure, the version that this is the hypostasis of Perun - B.A. Rybakov, but this is the version that the idol has a sword - a typical Khazar or Bulgar steppe, therefore there are many questions about the Zbruchev idol. From the fact that it may not be entirely Slavic, to the fact that it got there from the grave of a nomad and was used by the Slavs. About the sword - in the next article.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 23 March 2021 16: 18
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        We do not know anything about him for sure, the version that this is the hypostasis of Perun - B.A. Rybakov, but this is the version,

        There is generally an assumption that this is a fake of the XNUMXth century.
      2. tacet
        tacet 23 March 2021 16: 49
        +2
        Perun on a cloud. Old Ladoga. 9th century. Depicted without weapons (and without a beard), but throwing lightning.
    3. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 6 2021 14: 07
      0
      Perun in the Eastern Slavs was not very popular, a visiting character. More suitable for Lithuanians.
      The arrows of the Slavic gods are an analogue of lightning. After all, the heavenly deity strikes his opponents with lightning.
      Both Zeus and Jupiter had their own bow.
  • alimov76
    alimov76 23 March 2021 15: 06
    0
    Masterpiece. Mindflow. Let's pull the owl onto the globe. The pictures were especially amusing. Perun with a beam of arrows with cast plumage. And the "shooter is a Slav", oooh, breaking the pattern. I even stood in this position. Introduced like this. This is for our moviegoers and builders of monuments, they will go.
  • Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 23 March 2021 23: 30
    0
    How can you write a whole article about the Slavs without mentioning the "Slavic-Aryan Vedas"?
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 24 March 2021 00: 04
    -1
    Quote: Vlad-world
    Pancake. Composite Glued Onion. Glued from two types of wood. With glued-on conductors for elasticity. Bone linings Do not give elasticity and do not increase the force of the shot, but only to protect against mechanical damage.

    It is believed that composite bows appeared in regions with a shortage of wood. Elasticity always has a tensile limit (it breaks), bows glued from different woods reinforced with veins or combined from wood and horn pads are complex. In your opinion, what kind of mechanical damage does this method of making bows protect? Not from close combat, using it as a club.

    Quote: Vlad-world

    I can’t say anything about the mounds — I haven’t read it. The reliability of archaeological dating is very Doubtful. But there are no others yet. And so they twist in the light of officialdom and neither. By the way, the local population what bows they owned before the arrival of the Russians. Simple flexible sticks, but it seems if the heirs of the Scythians should be complex.
    And most likely not. But in our country it is impossible for the European-Slavs to be smart, so they include either the Türks or the Mongoloids. For information, the names of horse equipment among the Altaians come from the Russian language.

    In the southern regions of Western Siberia, there are enough archaeological sites of the Andronovskaya and Afanasyevskaya cultures. Moreover, there are enough items, including combat and hunting weapons.
    Do you think that before the arrival of the Russians in Siberia, the local population used bows from a "flexible stick"? what
    1. Vlad world
      Vlad world 24 March 2021 08: 50
      0
      Andronovskaya and Afanasyevskaya culture, they are who are Mongoloids or Europeans. The centers of European cultures were up to the Yenisei. And it is not necessary to derive the continuity of local Mongoloids from them.
      In Omsk, in a museum (in which I have already forgotten) there were samples of local bows - a flexible stick. Search.
      1. Lynx2000
        Lynx2000 24 March 2021 10: 09
        0
        According to anthropological characteristics (structure of the skull, skeleton, growth), they had features closer to Caucasians.
        Quote: Vlad-world

        In Omsk, in a museum (in which I have already forgotten) there were samples of local bows - a flexible stick. Search.

        Did I ask you if there is a simple bow in the form of a "flexible stick" in the museum? Making a simple bow also takes time and labor. In addition, the shoulders of the bow have a flat section, the central part (back-belly) is reinforced.
        We are discussing not the ancient inhabitants of Western Siberia, the Turks who did not come, nor the Mongols, etc.
        I'm wondering why you say that composite bows did not appear earlier than the 9th century. AD
        In the museum of Omsk, what was indicated in the plate for this exhibit? Presumably: combat or hunting? Where is found? What is the estimated date?
        The fact is that simple onions in natural conditions (acidic soil, moisture, etc.) rot and decompose.
        The finds, for which I wrote to you, were found on the territory of the mountain plateau in the south of Western Siberia, in such climatic conditions the so-called. natural mummification, as well as preservation in the glacier, as with Etzi. Therefore, leather goods, fabrics, military weapons, harnesses, household items have been more or less preserved.
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 24 March 2021 12: 40
    -2
    [quote = Eduard Vaschenko] [quote] Historians lie the only way. [/ quote]
    Historians lie no less and no more than everyone else.

    And the rest are scientists of other Sciences of Physics, chemists of mathematics, biologists and others. Alas, those who try to lie (to manipulate the facts) are punished there. Alas, since our historians lie about our history, no one is lying. Others lie exalting their (most often false) story. But ours lie, humiliating their history, especially at turning points in history. They don't even write the Truth. In small things, yes.
    1. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 6 2021 14: 18
      0
      The basis of true science is experiment, empirical knowledge, invariance.
      Only those facts are recognized as facts that can be verified by several independent studies. It works with the exact sciences, but "history" is not one of them.
      In the case of historiography, experimentation is impossible. If physicists will invent a time machine or a "chronoscope" at least - then we can seriously talk about history as a serious science.
      Until then ... well, guesswork and speculation.
      And let's not forget: "History is politics turned to the past." What kind of objectivity is there when you have to fluctuate strictly in time with the "general line of the Party."
      I remember how Russian humanitarians sang "Glory to the KPSS", and then abruptly began to sing odes to the Market and Democracy.
      Well, everyone wants to eat, they have to engage in "anal-lyzing" of the modern elite.