Military Review

Breechblock pistol for high impulse cartridges

209
Breechblock pistol for high impulse cartridges

Introduction



Currently, the main type of short-barreled weapons, used in the army, law enforcement agencies, private security companies and civilian circulation, are self-loading pistols with a movable barrel and a bolt rigidly attached to it, designed for the use of high-impulse cartridges of 9x19 and 9x21 mm calibers. Simpler models of pistols with a fixed barrel and a free breech, using low-impulse cartridges of 9x17 and 9x18 mm calibers, are gradually being removed from service and forced out of circulation. This is due to the insufficient stopping effect and penetrating ability of the latter in the conditions of the proliferation of body armor.

In addition, the movable barrel reduces the accuracy of short-barreled weapons, limiting the effective range of fire to 25 meters. The fixed barrel allows this distance to be increased up to 50 meters.

In the early 1990s, an attempt was made in our country to modernize the most common PM pistol with a free breech by creating cartridges with a larger weight of powder charge, which coincide in size with standard cartridges 9x18 mm. The modernized PMM pistols entered service with law enforcement agencies, but were soon sent to warehouse storage due to the small resource of the weapon due to the high recoil momentum.

To eliminate this problem in the early 2000s, an OTs-27 pistol was developed chambered for 9x19 mm with a free breechblock, a heavy breechblock and an elastomeric buffer, which solved the problem of a small frame resource, but had a lot of weight, which made it uncompetitive in comparison with such widespread pistols such as the Glock-17 of lesser weight. In the German pistol HK VP70 with a free blockage of 9x19 mm, which was put into service in 1970, a spring recoil buffer was used, which also significantly increased the mass of the pistol.


The use of a free bolt in pistols with a caliber of 9x19 mm and more is complicated by two factors:

- rupture of the spent cartridge case in the process of its exit from the barrel under the conditions of the pressure of the powder gases until the bullet was released (the safe constructive exit of the cartridge case is 3 mm, which is ensured in pistols with a movable barrel and a bolt coupled to it);

- the multiply increased recoil speed of the free bolt in comparison with the recoil rate of the coupled barrel and bolt, as a result of which the frame experiences heavy loads when the bolt strikes it.


The rupture of the liner is eliminated by increasing the mass of the bolt from 300 to 400 grams. Reducing the shock load on the frame is achieved by using a buffer, including a pneumatic one - the lightest known, used in the designs of submachine guns with a free breech: the Finnish KR-31 Suomi and the German MR-38/40. In the first PP, the working cylinder of the pneumatic buffer was located behind the gate and was equipped with a valve, which was triggered at the moment the gate came to the extreme rear position, releasing the pressure in the cylinder. In the second PP, the working cylinder was made in the form of a telescopic casing of the return spring, equipped with throttling holes with a flow area an order of magnitude smaller than that of the casing.

In both cases, the pneumatic device worked as a two-way brake / damper of the shutter - in the compressor mode during the rollback phase and in the pump mode during the rollback phase (as opposed to the return spring, which brakes the shutter during its rollback and accelerates when it rolls over).


The pneumatic buffer did not gain further distribution in automatic PPs due to the rapid heating of the working cylinder when firing bursts. On the other hand, this device was not used in the design of self-loading pistols due to the significant dimensions of the known designs of the pneumatic buffer.

Proposed technical solution


In order to reduce the mass of a pistol with a free bolt of 9x19 mm and more to the level of its competitors with a movable barrel and a bolt coupled to it, the VP-20 pistol concept offers:

- to reduce the weight of the bolt to the level of PM (300 grams) by increasing the distance of the safe exit of the cartridge case by “drowning” the cartridge case in the barrel chamber and entering the ejector into the chamber;

- use an integrated spring-pneumatic bolt recoil brake, arranged in the dimensions of the front part of the pistol around its barrel without increasing the dimensions of the structure.

The cartridge sent to the barrel is immersed in the chamber 1 mm deeper than in conventional pistols so that only the sleeve flange protrudes beyond the breech end of the barrel. The spent cartridge case ejector goes into the depth of the barrel chamber by 1 mm (the thickness of the cartridge case bore). The dimensions of the groove in the chamber are 1x1x2 mm, which is comparable to the dimensions of the Revelli grooves in the chambers of the weapon barrels with semi-free locks, which provide permissible plastic deformation of the metal sleeve when fired.

The ejector is located at the upper point of the shutter mirror, so the cartridge flange fits freely under its tooth (in contrast to the lateral placement of the ejector in known pistols). The reflector of spent cartridges / misfire cartridges is installed on the frame in the same vertical plane with an ejector with a slight shift to the left to eject the cartridges in the forward-up-right direction.

The spring-pneumatic brake consists of a return spring, put on the barrel, but at the same time contacting only with the inner surface of the bolt, and the working cylinder of the pneumatic buffer formed in the annular space between the barrel and the inner cylindrical surface of the bolt. On opposite sides, the space of the working cylinder is limited by the ends of the bolt and the barrel breech.

The coils of the return spring, wound from square wire, close when the shutter rolls back to the extreme rear position. The return spring presses the throttle sleeve to the end of the bolt, and the compression ring to the end of the barrel breech.

The throttle sleeve overlaps the gap between the bolt face and the barrel surface when the bolt rolls back quickly after firing (increasing the braking force by connecting the pneumatic buffer) and does not overlap the specified gap when the bolt is slowly retracted during manual reloading (reducing the force of the arrow to the compression force of the return spring) The compression ring bridges the thermal gap between the bolt and the barrel breech.


On the inner surface of the shutter, there are grooves passing over the compression ring at the moment the shutter speed is reached, in order to release the pressure in the working cylinder to atmospheric, after which the pneumatic buffer begins to work in pump mode when the shutter is rolling under the action of the return spring, softening the impact of the shutter on the frame at forward position.

Detailing of the pistol concept


The concept of the pistol is configured like a PM pistol, differing from it in the handle for a double-row magazine, a shock trigger and the absence of any controls on the side surfaces. The controls include only the release button, located inside the protective bracket, and the magazine latch, located on the front lower tide of the pistol grip.

Protection against an accidental shot when the pistol falls is provided by inertial devices as part of the trigger. The shutter delay is turned off automatically when an empty magazine is removed from the pistol.

The external dimensions of the pistol are selected in accordance with its intended purpose - to serve as the main short-barreled weapon for the army, law enforcement agencies and civilian use (within the framework of current legislation). In this regard, the length of the pistol barrel is assumed to be 115 mm (versus 114 mm for the "Glock-17"). The length of the pistol is 185 mm (versus 202 mm) due to the fixed barrel and more compact design of the trigger, the height is 132 mm (versus 138 mm), the width is 25 mm (versus 25,5 mm for the bolt and 34 mm for the side controls) ...

The length of the sighting line is 176 mm (versus 164 mm for the Glock-17), the tilt of the handle is 107 degrees (versus 108 degrees), the distance from the butt plate of the frame to the table axis is 14 mm (versus 18 mm) while maintaining the normal grip of the shooter's hand in contrast to the piled-up sports grip of the PL-15. The normal grip allows, at a short distance, to intuitively aim the pistol at the target without using sighting devices, focusing on the direction of the index finger of the hand lying on the trigger.

The magazine capacity is 15 rounds (versus 17 for the Glock-17) due to the insertion of the loaded magazine into the pistol only when the bolt is located in the extreme forward position and the pistol grip width is limited. The length of the breech part of the barrel increased to 50 mm with a greater wall thickness allows the use of reinforced cartridges of the 9x19 + P + and 9x21 mm type with a maximum pressure in the barrel of up to 3000 atmospheres.

The muffler is installed with a loose fit on the smooth muzzle of the barrel protruding beyond the butt end of the bolt with fastening by hooks on the side guides of the frame. The length of the side guides is sufficient for simultaneous installation with a silencer of an underbarrel tactical flashlight / laser pointer and a supra-barrel optical sight (fixed relative to the shutter).


By optimizing the design, the concept of a pistol without a magazine includes only 16 assembly units, which is almost half the size of the Glock-17 (29 units). The shutter consists of a casing and a larva mounted in the breech of the casing with the aid of a rear sight with a dovetail-type spike fastening. The shutter is guided by a frame coupling with knife projections on the outer surface.

The barrel is installed in the hole of the frame coupling by means of thermal diffusion welding in order to form a non-separable structure to prevent abnormal replacement during operation. The safe exit of the spent cartridge case is 3,83 mm.

As a structural material, it is proposed to use stainless steel with molding of parts under pressure into investment molds (according to the type of production technology of ChZ pistols). With subsequent machining, rotary forging of the barrel, electrochemical polishing of contact surfaces, shot blasting (matting) of visible surfaces, as well as finishing oxycarbonitration of all parts.

The weight of an all-metal pistol without a magazine is estimated at around 700 grams due to the compact design, low weight of the bolt and deep grooves of the surface of the frame and bolt (average thickness of 2 mm) by corrugating the handle, molding the side rails of the frame and notching the bolt casing for manual reloading.

Pistol concept trigger


The proposed pistol uses only double-acting striker trigger without preliminary cocking of the mainspring.

The trigger section of the trigger includes the trigger, the trigger and the return spring.

The release button is installed in a seat in the front wall of the handle and moves only in the longitudinal direction.

The trigger rod on one side is pivotally connected to the key, and on the other side - to the protrusion of the drummer. With its end, the thrust contacts the frame guide so that when moving backwards, the thrust decreases and comes out of engagement with the protrusion of the striker. After firing and releasing the press from the release button, the associated thrust is returned to its original position under the action of the return spring. As the latter, one of the feathers of a two-leaf leaf spring, located inside the butt plate of the handle, is used. The other feather serves as a return spring for the slide stop.

The striking part of the trigger is completely mounted in the bolt head and includes a striker, combat and rebound coil springs, wound from a wire of rectangular cross-section. The striker consists of a head part with a diameter of 2 mm (located in the cavity of the larva and serving as a guide for the striker spring) and a tail part with a diameter of 8 mm (located outside the cavity of the larva and serving as a guide for the mainspring). A support for the trigger rod is located between them.

The profile of the coils of the mainspring in relation to the axis of the striker is oriented axially (which provides it with a small working stroke with minimal preliminary compression). The profile of the bounce spring coils is radial. The mainspring rests on the inner surface of the butt plate of the bolt head, the baffle spring - on the inner surface of the shutter mirror. When the trigger is pressed, the striker shank extends 8 mm beyond the longitudinal dimension of the pistol through the corresponding hole in the end face of the bolt head.

The striking part of the trigger is non-separable during operation (similar to the "Tiger" carbine) - the head and tail parts of the striker with the springs mounted on them are connected by means of a temperature tension directly in the cavity of the bolt larva. Dismantling of the resulting connection is carried out in a weapons workshop using multidirectional heating / cooling of parts.

Cleaning the striker part from powder carbon deposits during operation is carried out using a soap solution, aviation kerosene or specialized cleaning agents.

The USM includes two inertial fuses.

As the inertial blocker of the striker, a bouncing spring is used, wound from a rectangular plate with a large ratio of width to thickness (2x0,5 mm). In the unloaded state, the coils of the spring are located normally to the surface of the striker. In the case of shock loading from the side of the pistol barrel, the turns take a position at an acute angle to the surface of the striker, blocking its movement due to the increase in the stiffness of the spring. When the shock load ceases, the turns return to their original position.

As an inertial blocker of the release button, a lightweight U-shaped one-shoulder lever is used, located inside the button and resting on a helical torsion spring. When struck from the side of the butt plate of the pistol, the lever is deflected up to the stop in the magazine, blocking the inertial movement of the key and the associated trigger rod. After the shock load has ceased, the lever is returned to its original position by the torsion spring.

Conclusion


The presented concept of a free-action pistol is characterized by increased firing accuracy.

Has a wide operating temperature range from –50 to +70 ° C (in contrast to the temperature range of guns with a plastic frame from –30 to + 50 ° C).

Can be used as a concealed carry weapon. Half the complexity of the design compared to the known models.

Safe to use without using a manual safety device.
Author:
Photos used:
modernfirearms.net; worldweapon.info; fastmarksman.ru
209 comments
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 18: 16
    +4
    striker trigger only double action
    Doesn't this contradict the declared "increased firing accuracy"?


    (which provides it with a small working stroke with minimal pre-compression).
    And the "low speed" does not convince at all, it clearly threatens with a fuzzy pricking of the primer and hence misfires!
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 22 March 2021 19: 36
      +2
      And the "low speed" does not convince at all, it clearly threatens with a fuzzy pricking of the primer and hence misfires!
      exactly, and posthumous awards !? wink
      1. hrych
        hrych 22 March 2021 21: 17
        +4
        Let's start with the fact that the effective managers of Izhmash, etc., with a brain gaidar, decided to enter the western arms market, apparently decided that everyone would come running in unison and grab budget trunks for greenery. But the trouble is, the market is cunning, sheer protectionism and it is not the economy that dominates, but politics. And the trunks will be taken as they are needed and at the price that is needed and dumping will not help. Having broken off in the foreign market, these managers fell on their own and let's tyrannize our military personnel through bribed bureaucrats, including general's shoulder straps. And for decades, the good old PM has been tearing up these newfangled Yarygins, GShs and other nasty things that have been pushed into production and are now being converted into injuries and awards, i.e. don't know how to get rid of. A fable about vests, because bandits in 99,99% of them do not wear vests at all. With regards to the militants, they are armed with AK and to go against them with a short-barrel is nonsense and suicide. But the trouble is, the use by militants-users of AK, armored vehicles is equal to errors. Those. for police operations, including counter-terrorism, relying on an armored vehicle is nonsense.
      2. hrych
        hrych 22 March 2021 21: 32
        -2
        The Luger patron is a legacy of the Reich's dominance in Europe. And not only that, he was originally from WWI, where the Germans drank a trench war, in which the Mauser cartridge did not stop the enemy, even a stitched through and mortally wounded, therefore an expensive and muddy Mauser side. And Parabellum, also expensive and unreliable, at least stopped better. Here is the Parabellum patron and history began. They were also armed with submachine guns MP-38/40 (which is the shame of the German gunsmiths) to the Walters and Parabedum. The British under this, for the use of stencil cartridges released Sten. The Red Army chose Mauser and almost under its standard and released TT, PPSh and PPS. And they completely surpassed the counterparts of the enemy in terms of combat qualities. The aiming range of the MP-40 is 200 meters, while the PPSh has 300 meters. And ours correctly guessed the combat distance of the WWII. hypothetically, our soldier shot a German with impunity, who had to overcome a hundred-meter distance under a hail of bullets from a disk magazine in order to reach the range of his shooting.
        1. Avior
          Avior 22 March 2021 21: 46
          +8
          The British under this, for the use of trafy cartridges released Sten

          and how many usable trophy cartridges did the British have when Stan was adopted?
          And they completely surpassed the counterparts of the enemy in terms of combat qualities. The aiming range of the MP-40 is 200 meters, while the PPSh has 300.

          Only the sight of the PPSh was at 100 and 200 meters crossover
          1. hrych
            hrych 22 March 2021 22: 01
            -2
            The British took the German MP-28 under the Luger as a basis and, on its basis, made a simplified, almost artisanal Wall for partisans in the rear of the Wehrmacht under the patronage of the enemy and his trophies. Also, their own army was eventually armed with them and naturally received their own production of ammunition. Unlike the Germans and Russians, the British, by the beginning of the war, underestimated the submachine gun as the future dominant class of the fighter's personal weapon. Therefore, they stupidly took a German sample and redid it. Sten is a typical legacy of the Reich.
            1. Avior
              Avior 22 March 2021 22: 07
              +5
              The Schmeiser brothers' system with a free breech was used by almost all pistols - machine guns of the Second World War.
              1. hrych
                hrych 22 March 2021 22: 18
                +4
                Nobody argues with this,
            2. John22
              John22 23 March 2021 11: 09
              +2
              Many pistols were made chambered for 9x19 mm until 1939. The same High Power Browning. It was the optimal cartridge for pistols with good stopping power. It was also used for PP. since it was mass-produced. And the technological efficiency (poverty) of the USSR made it stop at one caliber. The fact that the cartridge 7,62x25 mm would be better when used in the PP, no one then could have imagined. There were no statistics.
              1. hrych
                hrych 23 March 2021 11: 19
                -3
                Quote: John22
                The fact that the cartridge 7,62x25 mm would be better when used in the PP, no one then could have imagined. There were no statistics.

                You are so smart. Smarter than Russian gunsmiths and Generals of the Red Army. And they say the accident is to blame. Great !!! This is how the shooting and testing was carried out. Or do you think there were no Parabellums and Mauser in the hands of the responsible persons? Didn't have statistics and experience of WWI? Was there no civil war in Russia? Where by the way they kicked one place for the interventionists, the same Germans, the same Americans, Franks and British. Not to mention the Chinese, etc. Was there no Finnish? Where the Red Army examined submachine guns. Hassan and Hanhingol were not there? Wasn't Spanish? Poverty led to the release of TT? Poverty has led to the production of the best submachine guns. Poverty led that our soldiers met the war with an automatic SVT, but the Germans did not have such a rifle? In short, learn history, and you will not write the stupidest comments.
                1. lelik613
                  lelik613 April 1 2021 06: 33
                  0
                  Please, fewer slogans. Indeed, the rearmament of our army was determined by the scarcity of finances, technological backwardness, the absence of a weapons school and the enchanting stupidity of the highest ranks of the Red Army who became field marshals from warrant officers and non-commissioned officers (at best). We still do not have a 7,62 × 54 mm cartridge without a rim, but this stopped the development of a high-quality light (and single) machine gun and a reliable automatic rifle. It's the same with pistol cartridges. They could not develop lines for cartridges themselves, there was no money to buy. And the army was ruled by violinists, pharmacists and artisans.
                  1. hrych
                    hrych April 1 2021 11: 07
                    +1
                    And how did we win without your wisdom? How did the enchantingly stupid commanders of the Red Army smear the enchantingly clever field marshals of the Reich? So far, I see the enchanting bias and stupidity of the commentator making such enchantingly stupid statements. The absence of a gun school you say? After that, there’s nothing to talk about with your brother. Where did Degtyarev come from, where did Tokarev come from, where did Shpagin come from, where did Goryunov come from? Where did Sudaev and Simonov come from? Have you fallen from the moon? Why did they make the best WWII weapons? Not my words, but an assessment of the world, arms beau monde. And where did Fedorov fall from? From Mars? The rim, you say? So what? Why have our samples outperformed the flangeless silo? Who said the lack of a flange is a blessing? You said? And what kind of special are you, enchanting? There are advantages and disadvantages of cartridges such as these. And if the weapon using the flange cartridge is superior in all respects to others, then why go the way of those who constantly get rakes in the face because of the unreliability of their mechanisms, refusing to work in mud and cold. The advantage of flangeless cartridges is essentially only in the supply of cartridges from magazines, tapes, etc. All the problems of the flange when feeding our gunsmiths easily solved. So what? Are we having problems feeding cartridges? No. But all the advantages of the reliability of the flange are obvious. And insecurity is death. Therefore, we shot the Germans, the Vietnamese shot the Americans with flanged cartridges from our weapons. Slogans, you say? And he himself recited not purulent slogans?
                    1. lelik613
                      lelik613 April 2 2021 07: 35
                      0
                      1. How many field marshals of the III Reich defeated Tukhachevsky, Blucher and Yegorov to the pile?
                      2. How many weapons schools or design bureaus were there in Russia on 7.11.1917/XNUMX/XNUMX?
                      3. Tokarev and Degtyarev were self-taught without an engineering education in the field and become
                      the great ones were given the opportunity by the Soviet government, which decided that it needed industry, not handicraftsmen.
                      4. Shpagin, Goryunov, Simonov took over from the Kovrov design bureau at the arms factory
                      On January 18, 1918, the Main Artillery Directorate sent VG Fedorov and VA Degtyarev to the gunsmiths plant. V.G. Fedorov was appointed to the post of technical director of the plant

                      5. Sudaev took over from the school of gunsmiths of the F.E.Dzerzhinsky Artillery Academy
                      6. The rim on the cartridge 7.62 * 54 simplified production, but complicated the creation of automatic weapons. This did not allow the creation of a self-explanatory store food (like Bren) on the Degtyarevsky DP-27 and worsened the reliability of automatic rifles.
                      7. There should not be a lack of opportunity to pass off as an advantage. DP tape feeding was made only in 1944 and this nuance cost the Red Army many lives.
                      And please, read carefully what you criticize and do not get personal, this makes your argumentation shaky.
                      1. hrych
                        hrych April 2 2021 23: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: lelik613
                        don't get personal

                        So it was not worth stuttering about the slogans laughing I perceived this as a transition to personality. Gorlov-Mosin-Fedorov-Degtyarev-Shpagin, etc. This is school, continuity, etc. The word is self-taught, conditional. A person learns from a sample of weapons and begins to innovate a ready-made, someone's sample, and not from scratch. If he offers something sensible, he is brought up to the design bureau, given the opportunity to create, they will teach, they will prompt, and he does not work there alone, but with a team of engineers, technologists, foremen, testers and managers of design bureaus, production facilities, etc., including bookkeepers, commodity specialists, etc. No one in the barn collects from scrap more worthwhile, but only within the framework of the weapons SCHOOL. Tula gunsmiths shooters, their school is more than 400 years old. For the Red Army. The Commission of the Scientific and Technical Committee of the Artkom decided the issue of adopting the standard of the patron in the most severe disputes, here the Luger standard loomed and the Brownig standard. Everything was decided by shooting ranges and the experience of wars. The most authoritative expert was Fedorov, without his decisive vote the standard would not have been accepted. The Red Army was built and created by such people as the officer of the General Staff of the Tsarist Army, who graduated from the Academy of the General Staff, Shaposhnikov, who was marked by the highest benevolence for WWI. During the Civil War, Shaposhnikov developed most of the main directives, orders, orders to the fronts and armies. White generals and interventionists were defeated not by gray-footed sergeants, etc., but by such tsarist strategists of Kutuzov's level. In 1930, Shaposhnikov, just the Chief of Staff of the Red Army, the highest operational organ of the Army High Command, when they adopted the standard cartridge 7,62 by 25. Fedorov from gunsmiths, and Shaposhnikov from the Red Army. The genius is an engineer and a great strategist, thanks to whom they defended Moscow in 1941 and, on the whole, defeated the enemy. The battle for Moscow and the Red Army counteroffensive thwarted the Barbarossa plan and, in fact, decided the outcome of the war. And it was Shaposhnikov who was a member of the judicial body that sentenced MN Tukhachevsky, IE Yakir, IP Uborevich to death. Those. Shaposhnikov is not only one of the main strategists who defeated the whites and the interventionists, not only one of the main strategists of the Second World War, but also the one who destroyed the traitors, mediocrities and conspirators. Zhukov is the executor, and Shaposhnikov and Vasilevsky are strategists, the brain, the center of decision-making and the development of operations that outplayed an intelligent and powerful enemy. Unfortunately, the month did not live to see the Victory, and Vasilevsky also blasted the millionth Kwantung army to pieces with lightning speed.
                      2. gromoboj
                        gromoboj April 11 2021 15: 54
                        0
                        Citing the example of marshals executed in 37-38 years, this is what? Eternal liberal whining about bloody repression?
                  2. hrych
                    hrych April 1 2021 16: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: lelik613
                    We still do not have a 7,62 × 54 mm cartridge without a rim, but this stopped the development of a high-quality light (and single) machine gun and a reliable automatic rifle.

                    According to the American gunsmiths of the Center for the Study of Foreign Science and Technology] of the US Army, who tested it for wear, the PC is one of the best machine guns in the world, distinguished by its simplicity and reliability. Something the Americans were not embarrassed by the protruding edge, something it did not affect the reliability, even in the enemy's assessment. It didn't work with a single machine gun, can you troll the SVD? wassat
                    1. lelik613
                      lelik613 April 2 2021 07: 55
                      0
                      You see, 1961 is not 1941. Road spoon for dinner... The circumstances of 1941 were determined by the decisions of the twenties, the roots of which were in the affairs of the 19th century in general.
                      And the SVD, why troll it? It is a product of the technical specifications for the development and another cartridge was not provided. Within these limits, she took her well-deserved place.
            3. Terran ghost
              Terran ghost 25 March 2021 09: 55
              0
              a simplified, almost artisanal Wall for guerrilla warfare in the rear

              the British underestimated the submachine gun by the start of the war

              First, it’s not that underestimated. The British, as well as the Germans, saw the machine gun as the basis of the infantry squad's firepower. Moreover, in the case of the British, this was so pronounced that the usual infantry shooter REDUCED the rifle ammunition he carried in comparison with the standards of the First World War. Especially so that the aforementioned infantryman can better perform the function of "carrier of cartridges to the machine gun."
              Secondly, "Sten" was intended not for "partisanship behind enemy lines", but as a very cheap and easy-to-manufacture "mobilization weapon" intended as a "weapon of personal self-defense" for those soldiers whose duties usually do not include firing at the enemy from weapons carried in the hands, plus - as a weapon for arming the troops of the "second line", the civilian militia ...
          2. hrych
            hrych 22 March 2021 22: 08
            -3
            Quote: Avior
            Only the sight of the PPSh was at 100 and 200 meters crossover

            The aiming range is an ideal value without taking into account external factors, the effective range is of practical importance, but it correlates with the aiming range. If the PPSh has an effective range of 200 meters, then the MP-40 has only a hundred meters. The sight is not up to 200 meters, but over 200 meters. Bet on the maximum, on 200 and boldly aim at the body for three hundred and further. Maximum range (another concept laughing ) allows. For automatic shooting, a "cloud" of bullets and the probability of hitting is greater ...
            1. Avior
              Avior 22 March 2021 23: 08
              +3
              do you know why the scope is set at different ranges?
              to compensate for the decrease in the trajectory of the bullet.
              In your opinion, how far will the flight trajectory of the TT bullet decrease by 200 m and by 300 m?
              1. hrych
                hrych 22 March 2021 23: 18
                -2
                All i know laughing I repeat. The sight is not BEFORE, but FURTHER 200 meters and the topic is closed. The rest is details. The range of the PPSh and PPS allows for successful automatic fire at half a kilometer or more. So what? Read from the teaching staff:
                The rear sight has two fixed positions, 100 and 200 m, denoted by the numbers 10 and 20. Conducting aimed fire in the "20" position is possible up to 300 m.
                I also repeat that bet at 200 m and aim at from 200 to 300 m. You can continue, but the probability of hitting falls sharply.
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 23 March 2021 00: 31
                  +5
                  I also repeat that bet at 200 m and aim at from 200 to 300 m. You can continue, but the probability of hitting falls sharply.
                  probability does not fall sharply - it lies in the region of absolute zero laughing (not temperature)!
                  1. hrych
                    hrych 23 March 2021 00: 35
                    -6
                    Absolute zero - your knowledge of shooting wassat
                    1. Intruder
                      Intruder 23 March 2021 00: 58
                      +4
                      Absolute zero - your knowledge of shooting
                      Duc, according to your comments, you can see !!! laughing Others are already comrades for you, so they wrote:
                      if you set the sight at 200 m, then at 300 m the bullet will go 2,2 m below the aiming point.
                      Karl, 2,2 m. BELOW!!! It's not around absolute zero! ??? fellow
                      1. hrych
                        hrych 23 March 2021 01: 04
                        -4
                        Do not refer to someone else's, erroneous comment. Your comrades ... while alone wassat though trying to apply arguments. The key word is trying. wassat
                      2. Intruder
                        Intruder 23 March 2021 01: 13
                        +4
                        Your comrades ...
                        Do we know each other !? Where and when they drank vodka to switch to "You"! ??? recourse
                        What's the point, to explain to you, you spit on arguments from your high ...!? Also, wasting time, you are here 300 m and further, from an open mechanical PP, fire like milk, and the potential enemy drinks coffee and does not even laugh, he has already laughed ... (and to himself, too, you honestly my day is done, I will go to the shooting gallery this weekend I will laugh, there are old friends, for a cup of americano drinks ) !?
                    2. mmaxx
                      mmaxx April 1 2021 06: 23
                      0
                      And then she bounces right into the lop laughing
              2. Avior
                Avior 23 March 2021 00: 40
                +3
                if you set the sight at 200 m, then at 300 m the bullet will go 2,2 m below the aiming point.
                As you can imagine, no one will spend ammunition like that and will not heat the barrel.
                1. Konnick
                  Konnick 23 March 2021 04: 00
                  +2
                  As you can imagine, no one will spend ammunition like that and will not heat the barrel.

                  It depends on what the goal is.
                  "If Lieutenant Pluzhnikov knew who he was meeting, he would have released the entire disc."
                  1. beeper
                    beeper 23 March 2021 11: 26
                    +1
                    Quote: Konnick
                    As you can imagine, no one will spend ammunition like that and will not heat the barrel.

                    It depends on what the goal is.
                    "If Lieutenant Pluzhnikov knew who they are meeting, he would have released the entire disc.".

                    hi Also, reading these comments, at once I remembered exactly this episode from the novel by Boris Vasiliev, so engraved in my memory back then, in the mid-70s.
                    After all, it was such a pity and such an annoyance until now that the lieutenant did not shoot then .... very much, for the rest of my life, I was hooked by these author's lines and the whole novel "It did not appear in the lists" ... trampling death with death!
            2. hrych
              hrych 22 March 2021 23: 58
              -2
              The sector sight PPSh, model 1941 (and not yours, flip 1942) had divisions from 50 to 500 meters in increments of 50. Explain why the division into 500 meters of this sector sight?
              1. Avior
                Avior 23 March 2021 00: 18
                +6
                there is no need, so they quickly abandoned it.
                to use such a sight with a weapon with a TT pistol bullet, you must first measure the distance to the enemy with a tape measure, then tell him not to move, and only then return, set the sight and shoot.
                because if you are mistaken, and the distance to the enemy will be 550 meters in reality, and you set 500 on the sight, then your bullets will pass 2,5 meters below the target, so the distance to the target must be set with very high accuracy, which is possible at the shooting range to do without problems, but in a real battle, not very much.
                This does not take into account the fact that there may be a crosswind, and the target will decide to get off the ground.
                As for the shooting at 500 meters from the PPSh, in which at the beginning of release the sight was marked just to such a range, then in reality everything is pretty sad. With the sight set at "500" and the error in determining the range of only 10 percent (which is a very good result for measuring "by eye"), the vertical miss was 1,8 meters up if the target was actually at 450 meters, and by 2,5 , 550 meters down if the target was at 1942 meters. Therefore, since 200, on the PPSh and then on the PPS, the sights had markings only up to 9 meters, and most of the foreign samples under 19 x9 too. Indeed, even for the most powerful 1.7-mm cartridge "only for submachine guns" - for example, the English post-war 1A1,6, the corresponding vertical misses ranged from 2,2 to 3 meters, and even a relatively weak side wind of 9 m / s took a 2,5-mm bullet to the side by more than 500 meters. And this is not to mention the fact that a pistol bullet flies at 7.62 meters for almost two seconds, and the target on the battlefield very rarely remains stationary. For a lighter XNUMXTT bullet in a similar situation, the wind drift to the side will be over three meters.

                The pistol bullet is not designed for such combat distances.
                In order to actually shoot a similar bullet at 300 meters, at least single, the Americans in their M1 Carbine had to provide the power of the cartridge
                .30 Carbine (7,62 x 33 mm)
                Bullet energy, J 1308

                that is, it is 2-3 times more powerful than that of the TT cartridge (about 450-500 J).
                This is the price of these extra 100 meters of effective distance.
                1. hrych
                  hrych 23 March 2021 00: 54
                  -8
                  And why write all this? The sight was changed for simplicity and based on the battle distance of the WWII fronts. The real sighting range of the PPSh is half a kilometer. Question ... of the sight wassat Price of one hundred meters - Fritz's way to Valhalla wassat For what is aiming, what is effective, that the maximum range of the MP-40 is less by an order of magnitude. And so, for your information. Especially the defenders put landmarks for sighting positions, pegs for example, etc. And rangefinder optics divisions were in use in WWII. Therefore, at least the squad leader is obliged to inform his fighters about the distance to the enemy. laughing Ideally, of course ...
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 23 March 2021 01: 02
                    +5
                    I explained to you in detail why a pistol bullet is extremely difficult - but in reality, in a battle it is impossible - to effectively shoot at a distance of more than 200 m.
                    This is prevented by the ballistics of a pistol bullet, therefore, as soon as the mass use in real conditions began, it became obvious, and therefore they limited it to 200 m.
                    1. hrych
                      hrych 23 March 2021 01: 13
                      -4
                      Stop talking nonsense. A bullet from a PPSh retains its lethality up to 800 meters, at 500 meters there are no problems with ballistics. That was the original, sectorial sight.
                    2. Avior
                      Avior 23 March 2021 01: 33
                      +4
                      just look at the ballistic table for the TT cartridge or use the ballistic calculator and you will understand that the lethality is far from the only important characteristic. Pistol cartridges have low flatness by definition and a direct shot range. The bullet shape is not suitable for long range shooting. After a distance of 200 m, the trajectory of the bullet falls sharply downward.
                      For the TT cartridge, a 100 m decrease in the trajectory of a bullet is about 30 cm, a 200 m decrease by 1,4 m, a 300 m decrease by 3,7 m.
                      accordingly, to shoot at such distances, you need to know the target range with very high accuracy, otherwise the height error will be very large.
                    3. bistrov.
                      bistrov. 23 March 2021 03: 16
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      After a distance of 200 m, the trajectory of the bullet falls sharply downward.

                      These data are for the TT pistol, and the PPSh had a 26 cm barrel, which with a sector sight it was quite possible to fire at 500 meters.
                      And, for example, the aiming bar of the famous Mauser S-96 pistol, which has a barrel of 14 cm, is generally graduated to 1000 meters.
                    4. Avior
                      Avior 23 March 2021 08: 51
                      +4
                      It was a common publicity stunt. Mauser counted on commercial use.
                      In a carbine based on a Mauser pistol, they were shy and made a sight at 500 m.
                      The real range with the butt is the same 200 and.
                      What about
                      These data are for the TT pistol, and the PPSh had a 26 cm barrel, which with a sector sight it was quite possible to fire at 500 meters.

                      It could be. On a shooting range where the distance to the target is known with great precision.
                      After the bullet comes out of the barrel, it makes no difference from what it is shot - the speed and mass of the bullet, as well as its shape, is important, and not where it flew from.
                      You do not think that the PPSh and PPS were pests, and the sight was set less than the real effective firing range? However, you don't read that on VO lately: ((((
                      Take a ballistic calculator and count it yourself.
                    5. bistrov.
                      bistrov. 23 March 2021 11: 43
                      +2
                      Quote: Avior
                      less than the real effective firing range?

                      Quote: Avior
                      ballistic calculator

                      Well, you say that the length of the barrel does not affect the speed, but everything depends only on the cartridge and the bullet? Yes, I think about 30%, maybe 40%, the ballistics and speed of the bullet depends on the caliber, shape and mass of the bullet and the weight of the powder charge, but the remaining 60% directly depend on the length of the barrel and the pitch of the rifling .. In order not to go far, we take the same PPSh and MP-, with a relatively equal barrel length (for the PPSh-26, and for the MP-24,8, but the mass The MP had more bullets, which caused the worst flatness of the fire, and the absence of a muzzle brake of the compensator and much greater dispersion, and the Mosin rifle of the 30-year-old model, which had a barrel length of 74 cm, had a bullet velocity from 850 to 865, depending on the cartridge. for an infantry rifle with a barrel length of 82 cm, the bullet velocity was from 880 to 890, when fired with the same cartridge.
                    6. Avior
                      Avior 23 March 2021 14: 47
                      +1
                      Well, you argue that barrel length does not affect speed

                      Affects speed. In the ballistic calculator, the speed is set, and the barrel length is taken out of consideration.
        2. Intruder
          Intruder 23 March 2021 01: 46
          0
          Price of one hundred meters - Fritz's way to Valhalla
          Well, yes, it’s you about 36 million losses, tell me! That everything is simple - 100 meters and a little over 4 years of the Second World War !? fool
          1. bistrov.
            bistrov. 23 March 2021 03: 27
            +5
            Quote: Intruder
            36 million losses

            In fact, the losses of all countries participating in the Second World War amounted to about 50 million people, and if you mean the losses of the Red Army during the Second World War, then, according to various versions, they amounted to 7 to 11 million and more than 70% of these losses accounted for losses from artillery fire and bombing.
          2. hrych
            hrych 23 March 2021 09: 39
            -1
            Stalin announced 7 million total losses of the USSR, including the civilian population. Goebbels wrote about 20 million in leaflets. The Americans voiced 7 million 500 thousand. Those. the divergence of Stalin - the most informed person, if not in the world, and independent Americans in half a million. Khrushchev, when he declared war on the dead and was crazy about losing it (Churchill's words), for some reason turned to Goebbels' data and his lies. But when the liberal democrats came, they stupidly added up the data of Stalin and Goebbels-Khrushchev. This is how the figure of 27 million appeared. Whether 7 million is not enough, it is seven million in total. Taking into account the fact that we have won, and the enemy is defeated, then his losses are higher. And the funny thing is that the data on the number of citizens of the USSR in 1939 was 170 million, and the data on the number in 1945 was 172 million. And even taking into account the losses, even taking into account the natural loss of the population, which has not been canceled, the population grew by 2 million during the war. Now the mortality rate in Russia is under 2 million per year, and the Russian Federation is less than the USSR in the forties. Those. for five years without war in the Russian Federation, on average, about 10 million people die for natural reasons, with a decent level of medicine. This is offset by about 2 million newborns per year. But in the 40s, medicine was weaker and the high infant mortality rate was high up to a year. So they just tried not to give birth during the war, and the warring men, of reproductive age, were physically unable to conceive children during the war years. Therefore, add to 7 million - military losses, including the death of civilians, also natural deaths, natural loss over 5 years, just informational meanness. If now the natural decline in 5 years of the one hundred and forty million population of the Russian Federation is under 10 million in five years, then the natural population decline in the war years of the one hundred and seventy million of the USSR, even in proportion and without taking into account the level of medicine, is more than 12 million. Khrushchev. About 20 million natural losses and 13 million losses. Those. of course Khrushch did not look at Goebbels. But what is his meanness, you understand.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 23 March 2021 01: 22
      +1
      and you set 500 on the sight, then your bullets will pass 2,5 meters below the target, so the distance to the target must be set with very high accuracy, which can be done without problems at the shooting range, but not very much in real combat.
      That's right, and here one comrade, 300 meters or more, firmly believes in this zaboristy fantasy ..., with a growth target of 2,5 meters, this is for a dinosaur or a straight walking species of bear, some kind of normal laughing , as well as zoldaten, with an increase of 2,5 meters in the Second World War - like that, laughing wink !!!
  2. Alexfly
    Alexfly 24 March 2021 17: 49
    0
    Are you, a respected fire specialist, from Kalash at 1000 meters? How many times? Got it? There are also markings up to 1000m ...
    1. hrych
      hrych 24 March 2021 18: 00
      0
      If you are me? Then start a dialogue without sarcastic "fire specialists" and in return you will receive respect. The AK has an aiming range of 1000 meters. Therefore, the sighting device matches. If it is oblique, it does not mean that others cannot. wassat
      1. Alexfly
        Alexfly 24 March 2021 18: 17
        0
        Exactly, YOU were shooting at 1000m? From Kalash? Me not. I use .308 for this. Not an easy thing at all ..
        1. hrych
          hrych 24 March 2021 18: 20
          0
          If I say shot and hit a squirrel in the eye? Will you believe it? wassat
        2. hrych
          hrych 24 March 2021 18: 33
          0
          Okay, a tricky question. At a distance of a kilometer (established by the unit commander's rangefinder), a truck with enemy personnel arrived. You have AK in stock. Your actions? Will you surrender, run away, or will you move the aiming device bar to a predetermined distance and open fire? The great challenge of hitting a truck-sized target for a mile? Will your fire be considered aimed? Will you need to move the aiming bar to 1000 meters or will it work like that?
        3. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 25 March 2021 09: 48
          +1
          At a distance of a kilometer

          Great problem to hit the target

          There, a serious problem will be simply to see the target in general, provided that the weapon has an open sight (not optics or aperture (diopter)).
          At a distance of a kilometer (established by the range finder of the unit commander), a truck with enemy personnel arrived

          In general, this is the goal for the unit's 14.5mm armored personnel carrier machine gun, or even a 30-mm autocannon (infantry fighting vehicles, the newest armored personnel carriers).
        4. hrych
          hrych 25 March 2021 10: 03
          -1
          Those. Give you an armored personnel carrier, a gun, and why not a strategic bomber at once? So they put the fighter to control the sector and that's it. And he has AK and nothing more. The machine gun jammed, the commander was killed. Can't you see anything in a kilometer of line-of-sight? Take your glasses if you are disabled laughing
        5. Alexfly
          Alexfly 25 March 2021 18: 48
          0
          A bit of theory: at such a distance of 1000 m, the aiming point should be between 2,5 and 3 meters, plus a correction for the wind, a bullet flight time of 2,8 seconds, a drop in speed by 3 times and energy by ten times. What we have? Shooting with your eyes into the void, and YOU are talking to me about cowardice, captivity, retreat ... Good day to you ..
        6. hrych
          hrych 25 March 2021 19: 17
          -1
          Now, what about the two students and the victims of the exam? wassat Even if the initial bullet velocity of an AK is more than 700 meters per second, like a bullet will fly almost 3 seconds per thousand meters, if it is a little more than a second, even with an initial velocity wassat What is the wind correction for automatic fire and this is not a sniper weapon wassat What a drop in the speed of a bullet, if, when shooting along a flat trajectory, strictly horizontally, the bullet will fall simultaneously with the bullet you just hold in your hand and release it from the same height as the bullet in the barrel. Remember again, AT THE SAME TIME, only at a shot bullet 3 kilometers away, if it does not get anywhere, and released by hand right there. Of course, if there is a theoretically level surface with the same height above sea level. Just a pond in calm weather, for example, is suitable. This is the Law of Gravitation so and so. From which the laws of ballistics leap. And for a kilometer, they shoot with direct fire. Okay, if you fire at 45 degrees, only at whom? wassat This is not a weapon wassat To school, urgently to school.

          And also remember that the muzzle velocity of the bullet at the barrel cut is ... less than the maximum bullet velocity. Remember this.
        7. hrych
          hrych 25 March 2021 21: 33
          -1
          Even the Mythbusters have confirmed that falling and flying bullets fall at the same time. The speed of the bullet affects the range, the more powerful and long-range firearm, the further the bullet will fly, for example, 300 meters or 3000 meters, but the time it falls to the ground is just a falling bullet. wassat at least 300 meters, she flew away, at least 3000 wassat Headwind can reduce the range, but the bullet fall time will remain unchanged. And the milliseconds of a bullet fall or at the beginning of a ball. What are 3 seconds? HALF SECOND. To school immediately. Look first at the confirming experience series wassat Knock you out of the socks of ignorance wassat
  3. Alexfly
    Alexfly 25 March 2021 18: 06
    +1
    Uncle, you are a theorist .... Here, just in the truck, YOU will not get into ....!
  4. hrych
    hrych 25 March 2021 18: 19
    -2
    Said everything? Have you done your homework? wassat
  5. Alexfly
    Alexfly 26 March 2021 16: 38
    +1
    Yes, I have nothing to say about ... All your experience, apparently, is buried in knowledge at the level of destroyers .... What a horror !!!
  6. hrych
    hrych 26 March 2021 16: 46
    -1
    This is not my experience, but a teaching truth, which I learned from physics lessons, before the existence of this transmission. And what the guys put on a practical experience, well done. And education. At least a wide audience of viewers will not carry a blizzard like yours. Not everyone remembers physics lessons, not everyone understands the laws of gravitation and ballistics (you are an example), but here is enlightenment through a memorable show.
  7. Alexfly
    Alexfly 26 March 2021 17: 09
    +1
    Well done, now imagine from what heights the bullets must fall to fall to the ground at the same time with the bullets fired from the AK (in our case)? This height is the excess over the straight line between the eye, the scope and the target .. I hope you understand that between the distances of 300 and 3000 meters there will be some difference in the heights of the fall of a free-falling bullet? And no one has canceled the laws of gravitation, regardless of the fact that there are first doubts in the quantum theory .. By the way, tell me, not too far off, how, with a constant sight at 300 meters, a bullet hits a target + - 50 cm lower?
  8. hrych
    hrych 26 March 2021 17: 36
    -1
    In short, stop already carrying a blizzard under your untenable version. All changes due to a parabola of a few centimeters, not only with a kilometer range, but also with a hundred-meter distance, something below the error wassat Everything, there is no time to teach you, quickly to school. And so I enlightened you enough, I hope there is a benefit.
  9. Alexfly
    Alexfly 26 March 2021 18: 31
    +1
    And what is the sin of THAT? Several tens of centimeters between distances of 100 and 1000 meters. Or is it not so?
  10. Intruder
    Intruder April 1 2021 11: 30
    -1
    In short, stop already carrying a blizzard under your untenable version. All changes due to a parabola of a few centimeters, not only with a kilometer range, but also with a hundred-meter distance, something below the error
    Can you tell us more, such idiots and victims of the Unified State Exam of the Russian Federation bully (when, personally, I studied, there was no trace of it ...) about: ballistic coefficients, offsets and ordinates with drifts, wind speed, especially thermal flows near the ground, you have a flat trajectory of 1000 m. , to a bunch of natural indicators of wind speed and direction in the field ... laughing wink !?
  11. Intruder
    Intruder April 1 2021 11: 23
    -1
    bumps into knowledge at the level of destroyers
    Precisely, if I would give this to my instructor because of my youth in the past, he would have me ... belay and made it drip from it until dinner, combining space and time for sure, with a crowbar and not unbending ... winked wink
  12. Intruder
    Intruder April 1 2021 11: 20
    -1
    Here, just in the truck, YOU will not get into ....!
    maybe it will, only by chance, or according to the theory of probability and large numbers !!! laughing hi
  • Intruder
    Intruder 23 March 2021 00: 28
    +3
    The sight is not up to 200 meters, but over 200 meters. Bet on the maximum, on 200 and boldly aim at the body for three hundred and further. Maximum range (another laughing concept) allows.
    In a body made of PP (even in a growth target), without optics and at 300 m!?, Monsieur knows a lot about perversion !!! laughing wink
    1. hrych
      hrych 23 March 2021 00: 33
      -3
      Decent LGBT Commentary wassat
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 23 March 2021 00: 55
        +5
        Decent LGBT Commentary
        what !? Dear, these are your wet dreams or hidden inclinations to the side ... well, the same one, I hope you understand me !? laughing wink
  • Intruder
    Intruder 23 March 2021 01: 28
    +1
    The aiming range is an ideal value without taking into account external factors, the effective range is of practical importance, but it correlates with the aiming range.

    Canonically, like this:
    the aiming range is determined as the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to the point of intersection of the aiming line and the trajectory of the bullet. However, this does not take into account the accuracy of shooting, which depends on various factors, such as the quality of the aiming device, the shaking of the weapon when firing, dispersion on the way to the target, atmospheric conditions when shooting, etc.
    ! fellow
    effective range, of course, an important factor in the effectiveness of fire is the kinetic energy of the bullet. Therefore, large-caliber machine guns are effective at a distance of up to 2500 m, while standard rifle cartridges lose most of their kinetic energy at a distance of up to 1500 m. Effective range for small arms has two meanings: for single targets and for group targets. At the same time, it is believed that effective automatic fire can compensate to a certain extent for the inaccuracy of shooting at a given distance.. At the same time, one should take into account the fact that a shooter without an optical sight is not able to see a single target in khaki clothing against a landscape background at a distance of more than 200 meters.
    Bingo, if you know ... wink hi
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 26 March 2021 08: 10
    +1
    We smoke materials from the NIIPSMVO report of April 45th year "Tests of 9-mm German pistol cartridges with a surrogate and ordinary bullet"
    Actually, in those tests, the PPSh was used as a control sample, when firing with ordinary bullets, the effective range of the MP40 and PPSh is approximately equal to about 200, when comparing the PPSh and MP40 with a surrogate bullet, the PPSh already merged 40 MP along the range, albeit a little. The reason is the greater dispersion of the PCA and single fire and bursts,
    At the same time, having introduced the Pistole patrone 08 mE cartridge, the Deutsche "straightened" the trajectory, making the bullet lighter and giving it greater speed, as a result, along the ME trajectory, it began to yield a few centimeters to 7,62X25, and in dispersion it surpassed the PPSh - R100 by 300 meters for the PPSh 100cm for the MP40 s 08mE 72 cm.
    1. hrych
      hrych 26 March 2021 11: 27
      -1
      Stoned again, Connoisseur? wassat The superiority of the PPSh in the initial speed of the bullet and the best penetrating ability of a smaller caliber, because it is necessary to pierce helmets, infantryman's shelters and even a short fur coat. Muzzle velocity gave superior range. Everything else, including approximately equal accuracy, does not matter. When you were finished off from a greater distance, you can shamefully cover up the NIIPSMVO report wassat There is also the reliability of the PCA and the unreliability of the MP. And refusal to fight is death. Moreover, all sorts of tests in the yews are one, but the Russians left the wooden-gun stock and the shooter, pressing the butt with his cheek, UNIFOUGHT makes the best aimed and heaped shot. And the flawed, shattered butt of the MP? Initially, they wanted to give the MP a rifle stock, but they mistakenly refused. Like the Mauser rifle will cope, and the MP for trenches and urban battles. But in the trenches, they got it in the necks ... with a PPSh butt. The trench war, ala PMA, did not happen. WWII - mobile war and the Mauser rifle did not survive. Therefore, the TOTAL superiority of the PPSh. MP is so - a disgrace of the German gunsmiths. And the main shame is not even in the failed performance characteristics, but in the unreliability of the design, inability to work normally in winter and in the mud. And war is filth. Russia is winter. And if the gunsmith did not take this into account, then the lousy gunsmith. And the flawed performance characteristics, rather not from the MP itself, but the flawed standard - the Luger cartridge. Due to the larger caliber, the worst penetration, with a larger mass of a bullet, the same weight of gunpowder, even slightly less and because of this, a lower initial velocity of the bullet, which, in addition to the worse range, also affects the penetration and preservation of lethality. These are postulates and your blizzard will not change anything here. The mistake of choosing the standard of the Germans and the correct choice of the Red Army. The result is the total defeat, including the loss of the shooter, which is 15-20% of losses.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput April 3 2021 10: 26
        0
        Quote: hrych
        The superiority of the PPSh in the initial speed of the bullet and the best penetrating ability of a smaller caliber, because it is necessary to pierce helmets, infantryman's shelters and even a short fur coat. Muzzle velocity gave superior range.

        We smoke the history of steel bibs of the Red Army - "Already in the process of testing on 25.05.1943/XNUMX/XNUMX, one more armor from both parties was additionally submitted with a postscript - please give considerations about the desirability of thickening the shields with justification for the recommended thickness as with the brand
        steel 25N3, as well as with special shield grades. Tests of shells at the test site were carried out
        During the period from 18.05 to 29, not only the bullet resistance from the fire of submachine guns was tested, but also the comfort of wearing. The main leader of these and all subsequent tests of the PZ-
        ZIF-20 became a test engineer of the 2nd department of the landfill, Captain Solntsev Alexander Andreevich (who participated not only in the tests, but also in the development of drawings and technical specifications). Shooting was carried out at the shell, put on a canvas bag tightly packed with pieces of felt, single fire and bursts.
        The test results showed the following - the steel shell provides protection (in case of normal hits) from shelling: from a 9-mm MR-38 submachine gun with a lead-core bullet from a distance of over 20 m, a bullet with a steel core over 115 m; from a 7,62-mm PPD submachine gun with a standard bullet with a lead core over 75 m. "

        For those who are poorly versed in the history of the shooter, I inform you - since 1942. among the Deutsches, the main cartridge for pistols and submachine guns was the Pist.Patrone .08mE cartridge with a bullet with a steel core, the bullet of this cartridge was lighter than a bullet with a lead core had a high muzzle velocity, penetration of solid barriers in this bullet was higher than that of the main cartridge of the Red Army 7,62 , 25X40 with a bullet "P", the ballistics of this cartridge from MP7,62 in terms of flatness was at the level of the same 25XXNUMX from PPSh.
        Quote: hrych
        Due to the larger caliber, the worst penetration, with a larger mass of a bullet, the same weight of gunpowder, even a little less and because of this, a lower initial bullet velocity, which, in addition to a worse range, also affects the penetration and preservation of lethality. These are postulates and your blizzard will not change anything here.

        You just now en masse enrolled in the "blizzard racers" at the same time the testers of the NIPSMVO GAU KA, and the ammunition designers who, on the basis of the ideas embedded in the core and the design of the Pist.Patrone .08mE bullet, created a PM bullet with a steel core.


        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput April 3 2021 10: 27
          0
          Quote: hrych
          And the main shame is not even in the failed performance characteristics, but in the unreliability of the design, the inability to work normally in winter and in the mud

          And again, we read something more serious murzilok from the category of "weapon of victory" The MP38 / 40 had problems with functioning, mainly related to the rearrangement of cartridges when feeding, only the PPSh was very far from ideal, especially the PPSh of military issues, multiplied by the quality of wartime cartridges, especially those equipped with non-native gunpowders - and such a wartime TU was massively allowed to use substitute gunpowder -P-220, VP, and gunpowder of accelerated fabrication.
          the same P-220 too sharp for the PPSh gave a n / s drawdown up to 70-50 m / s.


          1. hrych
            hrych April 3 2021 11: 22
            +1
            Why are you spreading all this to me? I have nothing to do to read? wassat The Germans have lost the war and are going through the forest laughing The core may have influenced the penetrating ability, but the aiming range is small, where the Fritzes flicked like pigs. And the shells on the poor Fritzes are not satiated, so your news is like releasing miasms into a puddle. My thesis is about the mass standard, and not about the particulars, and even if the MP-40 is transferred to the Mauser cartridge, it will be one hell of a muck that does not work in the mud and cold. Well, for leaders with the letter P, who consider themselves more advanced in history, there is a TT cartridge with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet P-41, which has been used since 1941. And the nomenclature of the TT cartridge later (for the Korean Wars, etc., our army then switched to AK), included tracers and steel cores. Therefore, he did not surprise him with anything and did not change the course of the war.
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 23 March 2021 03: 11
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    Only the sight of the PPSh was at 100 and 200 meters crossover

    This is for automatic fire. And according to the instructions, the distance of hitting the target by single three hundred meters. In the first series, the PPSh sight was generally sectorial and graduated to a distance of 500 meters. Then it was abandoned in order to reduce the cost, such an aiming bar required milling work.
    And the German MP-38/40 has available single fire, as correctly stated, up to 200 meters, and the real distance of effective automatic fire is only 70 meters, this is due to the peculiarity of the 9x19 cartridge and the lack of a muzzle brake at the MP, which caused a large dispersion of bullets. Moreover, the folding metal butt also did not add to the accuracy of shooting, however, in 1941, a version of the MP with a wooden butt appeared, but it was released only in a small batch.
    The PPSh was equipped with a convenient wooden stock, which can be used even in hand-to-hand combat.
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 26 March 2021 08: 15
      +1
      Quote: bistrov.
      l sectorial and graduated at a distance of 500

      And the Mauser S96 has up to 1000 meters, the Browning HP is 500 meters - try to hit with a pistol, even with a butt holster at such a distance :)
      Marking the bar at such ranges is not a confirmation of the effective range, but the ability to fire at such a range in the UNITS on command and at a clearly visible large target, especially in those days when cavalry attacks with "lava" were practiced.
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx April 1 2021 06: 33
      +1
      What can be a single one if the entire shutter of the PPSh was released during the release? There is a weighty piece of iron.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 05: 23
    +3
    Quote: Avior
    Only the sight of the PPSh was at 100 and 200 meters crossover

    For a simplified model, and initially sectorial up to 500 m.
  • John22
    John22 23 March 2021 11: 18
    +1
    Have PPSh arr. In 1941, the sight was sectorial up to 500 m. Since 1942, they began to put the crossover rear sight at 100 and 200 m. This is already based on the experience of use and to simplify the production of PP.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 23 March 2021 11: 54
      +1
      The last PPSh with a sector sight were released in September 42nd.
  • hrych
    hrych 22 March 2021 21: 51
    -4
    By the way, the TT was also at the level and the myth that it was inferior to the enemy's samples, and the problems with the unreliability of pistols with a short barrel stroke were a systemic problem of all samples with a short barrel stroke. So, the appeal of the Germans to Fedorov's prophecy and the creation of Sturmgever under an intermediate patron, not from a good life, but from despair. Introducing a new standard and starting the production of new models during the agony is an attempt to reverse the catastrophic situation in terms of the complete superiority of the Red Army submachine guns. The Reichstag was taken from the PPSh and PPS. And NATO out of capitalist greed because it is a pity to throw out millions of barrels and the production of Luger filth. The Italian Beretta was under the control of the Reich, the Austrian Glocks were the heirs of the Reich, not to mention Sieg Sauer with Henkler & Koch. And in the Union, based on the EXPERIENCE OF VICTORY, they introduced their own standards, leaving the Mosin cartridge for machine guns and sniper rifles, introduced an intermediate cartridge of the same caliber and introduced the standard 9X18 pistols. By eliminating the shortcomings of their TT and Luger dirty tricks. We increased the caliber and made a rounded bullet to increase the stopping effect, we got away from the flawed short stroke of the barrel. We made a PM for the police and army staff officers, but AT THE SAME TIME for the army, for the crews of cars, floating, driving, crawling and flying, we made APS. So this APS standard 9x18 uses to its fullest, remaining a reliable pistol without a short barrel stroke and an aiming range of 200 meters, as well as a compact submachine gun. And if you need to make holes in the vest, you do not need to change the standard and the barrels, but it is enough to take armor-piercing ammunition and you will be happy.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 23 March 2021 01: 38
      +2
      Quote: hrych
      So, the Germans turned to Fedorov's prophecy and the creation of Sturmgever under an intermediate patron, not from a good life, but from despair.
      And what does Fedorov have to do with it? There he was not remembered, probably.
      The birth of 7,92 × 33 and StG-44 under it is, rather, the envy of the Americans and their M1 Carbine with a cartridge ... 7,62 × 33 (do not strain! It is almost "pistol-like", with a tapered, almost cylindrical sleeve and blunt bullet).

      Quote: hrych
      And NATO out of capitalist greed because it is a pity to throw out millions of barrels and the production of Luger filth.
      They drowned tanks out of greed, and here - the trunks ...

      Quote: hrych
      And in the Union, based on the EXPERIENCE OF VICTORY,
      Not. Out of economy (or greed?).

      Quote: hrych
      We increased the caliber and made a rounded bullet to increase the stopping effect, we got away from the flawed short stroke of the barrel.
      Why is the short move flawed ?! 90% of all barrels in the world are precisely with a short stroke in different variations.
      And no one forbade making a semi-sheathed bullet with a flat nose at 7,62. By the way, as it turned out, all these "stopping" actions of the bullet work only for hunters. And then - only needed for the second, more accurate shot.
      The proof is the adoption of PDW cartridges, where the caliber is even funnier than the 7,62.
      At the same time, if you do not know, the 9x19, 7,62x25 and 9x18 bullets are blunt, and the 5,7x28 bullets are pointed
      1. hrych
        hrych 23 March 2021 09: 05
        -3
        Quote: Simargl
        90% of all barrels in the world - with a short stroke in different variations
        Now the whole "civilized" world tells you that LGBT people are the norm. Your actions?
        Firstly, the leaders of small arms of the 19th century, the Americans, by the middle of the century sharply surrendered their positions to the Europeans and Germans, who had a splash at the beginning of the 20th century. Which, in turn, were furnished by Russian gunsmiths and kicked one place in the Great War. And NATO is not the USA, but the USA and the FRG, and Britain, and Belgium, and Austria, and Italy, etc. all2 that was under the Reich, except for the United States and Britain. But they sorted it out with Britain, because Sten was Germanic from the very beginning. This whole NATO pack had to be armed. And what? When the mountain lies with trunks and a bunch of finished factories. It's not even greed, but there's nowhere to go. Plus, the Cold War began immediately, trophies went to the BV, Arab-Israeli showdowns, etc. Naturally, the trunks went to Indo-China. Therefore, the Uzi was made under the Luger cartridge, and the United States itself had to bend under the legacy of the Reich, and not vice versa.
        Quote: Simargl
        And what does Fedorov have to do with it?

        And, moreover! Because of the philosophy, if you will, of the intermediate patron. Which still reigns as the cartridge of the fighter's main weapon. Automatic fire is superior to single fire, and a submachine gun has a shorter range of combat, but in street battles it is king. The Germans realized that the Russians, using the PPSh, stupidly shot the carriers of the MP, in which the SYSTEM trouble of the Luger standard, of course, in an order of magnitude lower initial speed, hence all the ranges, striking abilities, etc. Rifle, single fire turned sour, although our war started with a semi-automatic SVT. A separate topic is machine guns. In part, the Germans relied on them in the superiority of small arms, and yes, at the beginning of the war it was. A PM with a luger for trenches and cities. But they broke off.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 23 March 2021 14: 57
          +2
          Quote: hrych
          Now the whole "civilized" world tells you that LGBT people are the norm. Your actions?
          Believe it or not: LGBT people are rate by population up to 10% Bonus terms and conditions apply in varying degrees of deviation. Do you want to equate the construct with the LGBT distribution? Flag in hand and meet the train! And I repeat: there are pistols under 9x17 (the one that is weaker than 9x18) with a short barrel travel.

          Quote: hrych
          And NATO is not the USA, but the USA and the FRG, and Britain, and Belgium, and Austria, and Italy, etc. everything2 that was under the Reich, except for the USA and Britain.
          Something you do not finish! Britain, and, suddenly, Italy, Turkey, Canada were not under the Reich ...
          The cartridge was approved by the standard for the NATO armies after 70 !!! years after its inception. And how did the Americans miss their 0.45 ACP ?! But they could push through. But no: the number of cartridges in the store outweighed.

          Quote: hrych
          But they sorted it out with Britain, because Sten was Germanic from the very beginning.
          Didn't figure it out. British Rifle is a separate topic.

          Quote: hrych
          This whole NATO pack had to be armed.
          The PP was no longer the main weapon. Stoner did his job ...

          Quote: hrych
          And, moreover! Because of the philosophy, if you will, of the intermediate patron.
          Don't make people laugh! He used rifle cartridge!!! Yes, the 6,5x50mm was weaker than the 7,62x54R, but it was still a rifle one.
          The first, actually intermediate, cartridge was 7,65 × 32 XPL, although the carbine for it was called Pistolskarabiner M1903. And it was, in fact, a pistol with an elongated barrel.

          Quote: hrych
          using the PCA, they stupidly shot the MP carriers, in which the SYSTEM trouble of the Luger standard
          What is the trouble that destroyed the Mauser standard (7,62x25, nee 7,63x25 mm Mauser) and now even the heiress of the USSR, Russia, has adopted (one of) 9x19 as a standard?
          1. hrych
            hrych 23 March 2021 16: 36
            0
            Firstly, not 10%, but 1% of patients. There are hotbeds in metropolitan areas, but generally so. And don't take on a lot. A short barrel stroke increases the cost of the sample, complicates production and increases the number of parts. This increases the likelihood of failure of each part, worsens resistance to pollution, etc. With a more powerful cartridge, the load on the units and parts increases, and the dimensions have to be increased. This is the law of weapon mechanics and manufacturing. Therefore, trying to refute this law, only disgrace. NATO in 1949 did not contain Turkey for example. We are talking about the founders of 1949. Canada is still, both legally and in fact, not an independent state, but the dominion of Britain and the head of Canada - the British Queen. The history of British submachine guns is not directly a SEPARATE topic. but very simple. We took the German MP-28, copied it completely under the name Lanchester and forward. Then it was further simplified to the artisanal level and called Sten. Without the Reich, there are no British PPs in service. Italy is an Axis country, and after trying to overthrow Duce, most of Italy is simply occupied by the Germans, including the Beretta factory. And who of the founders of NATO can be suspected of being independent from the Reich, only Portugal. But this, then it is, that neither Portugal, nor even the non-founder - Turkey and not Canada with its owner - Britain, somehow did not vouch for a submachine gun and their own separate standard of cartridges. Therefore, the Reich and again the Reich. Russia accepted the standard 9 by 19 conditionally, at the top I wrote about managers with a brain Gaidar. Further small-scale production did not go. The police and the army use the PM and will continue to use it. GSh and Yarygin have already failed, and the submarine has been undergoing a test for 3 years and in no way, the good old PM is tearing them up and will continue to tear. Therefore, the adoption of the Luger standard is conditional and close to an error. And Yarygin has nothing to do with it, he is no worse than Beretta, and she could not stand the test of the war in the United States. Zaglyuchila. and this is a cemetery. Here the US Army is again changing the awl for soap, i.e. Silver finalist ZigZ) Auer was approached, and Colt had done it even earlier. Glock didn't even get to the podium there. Such was the tough tender of the US Army, Beretta won and such an inglorious end after Iraq and Afgan. You can change the awl again, but it is clear to everyone that there is a systemic error in the design and standard of the ammunition. All these are heavy pieces of iron, wedging and afraid of the slightest pollution, but war, not a hospital operating room, but dirt, overheating, damp and dirty cartridges. Here PM passed all the tests, but Beretta, Yarygin and Co. NO.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 23 March 2021 19: 18
              +1
              Quote: hrych
              Firstly, not 10%, but 1% of patients.
              Less than 1% radicals. However, read carefully what I am writing.

              Quote: hrych
              A short barrel stroke increases the cost of the sample, complicates production and increases the number of parts.
              With regard to "high-impulse", this is not the biggest "evil": there are exactly two parts added (if we consider the minimum necessary): the spring guide (and then - some with a rigid barrel have it, for example - Margolin, and in a perverted form) and a bolt lock cylinder or a tooth / tracer groove on the barrel.
              In your case, this is a minimum of 3-5 high-load parts.

              Quote: hrych
              We are talking about the founders of 1949.
              Are we starting to play around? Standardization took place in the late 70s. We started thinking at the end of the 60s. This is when the composition has grown.

              Quote: hrych
              The history of British submachine guns is not directly a SEPARATE topic. but very simple.
              That's just the point: third-party and very mediocre models were adopted. Those. the topic, nevertheless, is a separate one.

              Quote: hrych
              And who of the founders of NATO can be suspected of being independent from the Reich, only Portugal.
              In your opinion, the USA depended on the Reich ?! It’s strange.

              Quote: hrych
              GSh and Yarygin have already failed, and the submarine has been undergoing a test for 3 years and in no way, the good old PM is tearing them up and will continue to tear.
              Take a pill. They were adopted by the General Staff, and the PYa, and the SPS, and the submarine. The latter, it seems, will also go to the police. PM does not tear, did not tear and is not eternal, although it is simple.

              Quote: hrych
              And Yarygin has nothing to do with it, he is no worse than Beretta, and she could not stand the test of the war in the United States.
              I wonder what they have been using for 40 years? And what kind of war, can you tell me? And they adopted the same barrel with a movable barrel. Just not Beretta, which has a larva locking (like the SPS), but SIG Sauer P320 (locking like Glock and ... Colt).
              Beretta lost not for reliability, by the way!

              Quote: hrych
              Here PM passed all the tests, but Beretta, Yarygin and Co. NO.
              They all passed ALL tests. The PM did not even begin to be considered by the Americans. Beretta did not pass in terms of modularity and mass. Do not lie!
              1. hrych
                hrych 23 March 2021 22: 54
                -3
                So I would read it carefully. The United States really caved in under the Reich, or rather its fosterlings in Europe by weapon standards. The Reich production remained, the weapons school remained, the Reich gunsmiths engineers were taken to their design bureaus, etc. Moreover, now the US security forces, in addition to European pistols, also use HenklerKoch assault rifles. Even the Abrams cannon, and it comes from the fascist Rheinmetall laughing And the von Braun rockets?
                Beretta for modularity? Yes, yes, of course. Well, she won the tender both in modularity and in weight from the same Sauer? The replacement is not for a laser blaster, but for the same one. You're lying, because changing the standard pistol of the most powerful army is a shock and not from a good life.
                Quote: Simargl
                what have they been using for 40 years?

                With pampers. In short, there is nothing to talk with you about, for the gaps in the very nearest history are monstrous. Shame! How to talk about World Wars in general and the history of weapons? The United States simply did not fight after the Vietnam collapse. After the adoption of the Beretta, they were worn in a holster and shot at a shooting range. The first Iraqi war in 1991 (Desert Storm) was contactless, aviation and missiles, i.e. there was no invasion and occupation. And only 10 years later, the invasion of Afghanistan and later Iraq, already in the 21st century. Wars always result in tough decisions on weapons. So, following the results of WWII, it was, in particular, the adoption of the AK and PM. The experience of Iraq with Afgan was the thrown into the trash Beretta and not only. And since a new standard is not introduced, a new principle of operation of automation is not introduced, then this speaks not of mythical modularity, but of a complete failure of the sample. Completely. And the main criterion is reliability. Confused by the superiority in energy intensity and penetrating ability, when this muck pereklinit. And the failure of a weapon in battle is death.
                Quote: Simargl
                Take a pill
                And you have rectal suppositories. Lebedev's pistol is not in service. There is NO interest from the Ministry of Defense. ATP generally chambered for 9x21. Almost every employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs is assigned a PM, in the Ministry of Defense and in storage there are millions of these pistols. When at least 10%, as you say, your brother wassat in the Russian Federation there will be samples under the Luger cartridge, then come.
                Quote: Simargl
                Are we starting to play around?

                Are we starting to be rude? Teach materiel, Teach the founders of NATO. Learn history. I do not need to answer, I will not read in principle.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 24 March 2021 02: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: hrych
                  So I would read it carefully.
                  What to read then? Delirium drives you nonsense.
                  However, you didn't bother to read what was written about %%.

                  Quote: hrych
                  The United States really caved in under the Reich, or rather its fosterlings in Europe by weapon standards.
                  Well, let's check what is there in fact?
                  NATO patrons
                  9x19 - there is nothing to cover - Luger, time of appearance - 1902, it seems to be the second Reich.
                  5,56x45 or .223 Remington - I find it difficult to answer ... isn't it an American development?
                  7,62x51 or .308 Winchester - again I find it difficult to answer ... is it not an American development? 12,7 × 99 or .50 BMG, where BMG is Browning Machine Gun, and John Moses Browning is uh ... American, not so is it? But yes: lay down! Moreover, PPs were practically not used anymore ...

                  Quote: hrych
                  Even the Abrams cannon, and it comes from the fascist Rheinmetall
                  There is nothing to cover.

                  Quote: hrych
                  And the von Braun rockets?
                  And where are they? In the museum? We also had it. So what? The USSR also "lay down"?

                  Quote: hrych
                  Beretta for modularity? Yes, yes, of course. Well, she won the tender both in terms of modularity and weight from the same Sauer?
                  Exactly!!!
                  On January 19, 2017, it was officially announced that it was adopted by the US Army as a service weapon designed to replace the existing models of the Beretta M9 line.
                  Source
                  https://www.kalashnikov.ru/novyj-pistolet-dlya-armii-ssha-sig-sauer-p320/

                  Quote: hrych
                  In short, there is nothing to talk with you about, for the gaps in the very nearest history are monstrous. Shame!
                  I completely agree! Shame! The Americans themselves carried the M1985 until 1911, and then the M9 (Beretta). Both have a movable barrel. And, oh, horror, M-96, TT - were with a movable barrel. Luger, R-38 ... - a movable barrel ... Nambu .... you can enumerate according to the Beetle's list - there are 99,9% of army pistols - with a movable barrel.

                  Quote: hrych
                  The experience of Iraq with Afgan was the thrown into the trash Beretta and not only.
                  Is it true ?! Not its mass and troubles with the complexity of the design?

                  Quote: hrych
                  And since a new standard is not introduced, a new principle of operation of automation is not introduced, then this speaks not of mythical modularity, but of a complete failure of the sample.
                  Locking Method Standard? This is something new! In the M9, the barrel is coupled to the bolt with a separate part (larva), like in the SPS. In the P320, the bolt is linked to the barrel like a Glock or PYa / PL - a copier groove (heir to Browning's earring). The reliability of the P320 is hardly less than that of the PM.

                  Quote: hrych
                  Lebedev's pistol is not in service.
                  Recommended. And KK will push it through.

                  Quote: hrych
                  When at least 10%, as you say, your brother in the Russian Federation will have samples under the Luger cartridge, then come.
                  HIT on "you", with a capital letter!
                  10% I spoke about the world. And not about 9x19, if that! Do not juggle!

                  Quote: hrych
                  Teach NATO founders
                  USA. In order to frighten the "European Union" with horror stories about the USSR and not lose the zone of influence. I, higher (maybe not higher - in another thread), wrote for what NATO was actually created. So who needs to learn history here?

                  Quote: hrych
                  I do not need to answer, I will not read in principle.
                  Oh oh! I would answer you in a personal. And so - let everyone see how the bottom is breaking through.
                  And you don’t know how to read (and don’t want to) - you signed for it.
            2. Alexfly
              Alexfly 26 March 2021 18: 44
              0
              I do not understand, Khrych, the word DOMINION, please translate it for me ignorant .. otherwise it somehow turns out not in Russian. No, so to speak, the national core ..
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 26 March 2021 08: 23
          0
          Quote: hrych
          And, moreover! Because of the philosophy, if you will, of the intermediate patron.

          We smoke not the Internet murzilki, but the primary sources of the very same Vladimir Grigorievich, and we are surprised to learn that he did not offer any concept of intermediateness, the essence of his work REDUCING THE CALIBER OF RIFLE cartridges, which would allow keeping ballistics like those of normal caliber cartridges, to get cartridge mass and reduce recoil momentum.
          The intermediate cartridge is a different concept - it is a cartridge of lower power and worse ballistics than a rifle cartridge, but with an effective range higher than a pistol one, covering all common scenarios of combat using shooters, i.e. up to 400-600, while with DPV along the chest at least 300 meters.
          1. hrych
            hrych 26 March 2021 11: 04
            -1
            You smoke. Where do you come from? Do not understand the philosophy of weapons, but you climb to argue wassat The philosophy of Fedorov is in the continuous, automatic fire of a soldier, which was revealed by WWI and confirmed by WWII. And his philosophy was also embodied in the massive use of WWII submachine guns. His philosophy came true. And the result of it to this day is the submachine gun, as the main weapon of the soldiers of the armies of the world. Not only that, he was also the first to make an automaton, as the pinnacle of this philosophy. Nicholas II responded to his philosophy of continuous fire as a fighter from personal weapons: "We don't have enough cartridges for a machine gun, we need to shoot from rifles." And these are not purely the words of the Tsar, but a generally accepted stereotype that Fedorov fought about. Two world wars passed to confirm his innocence and came to what he had already done in iron. And even his machine gun is only a consequence, an intermediate cartridge is only a consequence, and the basis of his philosophy is the continuous fire of a soldier from personal weapons. Not units, as in machine-gun crews, but the main fighter, of whom the overwhelming majority are in the millions-strong armies. And unlike you, Hugo Schmeiser and the strategists of the Reich, they knew this philosophy of Fedorov, had at their disposal a ready-made sample of his machine gun, and even are familiar with the experience of its combat use. And when, with the beginning of the war, they realized their mistake and underestimation of even submachine guns and semi-automatic rifles. For the Red Army staked not only on the PPSh, but also the SVT appeared. Snipers mowed the Fritzes out of them. The Germans went through the war even without a semi-automatic rifle (which Fedorov also dealt with and Tokarev, Degtyarev and Shpagin with Sudaev, his fosterlings). They made a worthless submachine gun and the Parabellum cartridge showed worthlessness even then. Therefore, Schmeiser and the strategists, having received in the face, believed in the correctness of Fedorov's philosophy and bungled Sturmgever, in the image and likeness. We also turned to the intermediate cartridge. Fedorov's main commandment is continuous fire from the main infantry soldier. Remember this, and everything else is details.
            1. Alexfly
              Alexfly 27 March 2021 12: 40
              0
              Hrych, are you the wrong person? What do you smoke, share? Sorry, of course, you don’t work as a deacon? And then, at the prayer service, I apologize, it seems ... You are mumbling something and there is nothing worthwhile in YOUR information ...
      2. Intruder
        Intruder 23 March 2021 15: 14
        -1
        5,7х28 - pointed
        "hole punches" from FN (a), just to guarantee to sew light (wearable) armor in urban conditions, and beyond the barrier there, in the form of bioshock of soft tissues and internal organs of the bio-target, is not bad ... hi
        it provides greater flatness of fire, lower recoil, greater effective firing range, armor penetration, and also has a reduced degree of ricocheting.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 23 March 2021 15: 49
          0
          Quote: Intruder
          "hole punches" from FN (a), just to be guaranteed to sew light (wearable) armor in urban environments
          ... although most of the cartridges do not know how.
          They were created just like low-impulse ones. To simplify the design of the weapon.
          And, by the way, to some extent - an increase in ammunition: the diameter of the cartridge is less than 9x19.
          Ours could step over themselves and buy a license ... or pile something like that on their base ... it was 5,45x18 ...
      3. gross kaput
        gross kaput 26 March 2021 08: 29
        0
        Quote: Simargl
        And what does Fedorov have to do with it? There he was not remembered, probably.
        The birth of 7,92 × 33 and StG-44 under it is, rather, the envy of the Americans and their M1 Carbine with a cartridge ... 7,62 × 33 (do not strain! It is almost "pistol-like", with a tapered, almost cylindrical sleeve and blunt bullet).

        Nothing so that the Deutsches began work on intermediate cartridges in the early 30s, the first Volmer autocarbine for the intermediate Gecko cartridge was created in the 35th, the "Kurz cartridge" 7,92X33 was worked out in the 39th, and since 1940 the Wehrmacht weapons department issued a task for the development of carbines for it.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 23 March 2021 01: 41
      +5
      And NATO out of capitalist greed
      Envy and pride that they have, loot was and is !?
      The Italian Beretta was under the control of the Reich, the Austrian Glocks are the heirs of the Reich, not to mention Sieg Sauer with Henkler & Koch
      So what!? Recognized world brands in the arms world, and what others have done in 75 years, "slurp soup", on the merits of their ancestors, since the end of the Second World War !? repeat
      Luger mischief
      so, smart and ingenious, because the world standard is to name !?
  • Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 25 March 2021 09: 32
    +1
    who had to overcome a hundred-meter distance under a hail of bullets from a disk magazine in order to reach the distance of his shooting

    Go to the shooting range of what? From the Mauser 98K magazine rifle, which has an effective firing range of 400-500 meters? In reality, "in the open field" subunits of submachine gunners really created "a dense shaft of fire at the last line of defense." This is when the enemy fighter had to overcome the last hundred meters to get to the distance at which you can already throw hand grenades. But the PPSh really showed itself in conditions of intense battles in urban areas, where its effective firing range of 200 meters (versus 100-120 meters for submachine guns chambered for 9x19mm cartridge) made it possible to "cover" most of the actual combat ranges.
    1. hrych
      hrych 25 March 2021 10: 57
      0
      The experience of battles has shown that automatic fire of a submachine gun is more effective than a single rifle fire. Those. in a kilometer you cannot see anything, but in half a kilometer you can, because you are a native Mauser. The target per kilometer looks only 2 times less than half kilometers and try to refute it. And the distance of the battle in the "field" really turned out to be guessed by Russian gunsmiths and strategists. Those. 300-600 meters. Not 200 meters - effective range. Effective, because closer to the German percent under 99,99, it does not come at all. You understand the terms, they are straight in Russian and do not need translation. Effective range - the elimination of the enemy is guaranteed, little dependent on the shooter. Sighting - the elimination of the enemy is guaranteed if the shooter is average, and not cross-eyed, a side wind, squall wind and other external factors will not come. Maximum firing range - a high probability of defeat if the shooter is above the average level, or by concentrated fire of several fighters at one target. And there is one more concept - the preservation of the lethal effect of a bullet. Those. a bullet can kill the enemy, but the defeat of the enemy is accidental, or the shooter is a virtuoso, and the sighting device does not take into account this at all. Such fire was deliberately fired at the enemy's concentration. In practice, this is approximately one and a half times from the aiming range, less often twice. If the PPSh has an aiming range of 500-550 meters, the extreme bar division is 500 m, but the bar step is 50 m. when translated to a value of 500 m, the fire was fired at the target of OT 500, up to 550 meters and beyond. According to the sector sight of the 1941 sample. But the bullet still retains its lethal force at 700-800 meters. Although the PPS, that with the PPSh, are brothers of the same age, in general, the maximum range is set at 1000 meters, which, of course, is more likely to preserve the lethal effect of the bullet. All these terms, of course, are designed for a humanoid target, do not take into account that the enemy is peeping out of cover, crawling, etc. Therefore, in a real battle, the term that you noticed as a barrage of fire plays more. But the fact of the matter is that it again correlates with ideal, shooting range terms. And here the importance of accuracy, rate of fire and ... the volume of the store is added. That again our gunsmiths allowed the enemy to surpass. In street battles, the MP just pulled himself up, but its unreliability ... If there is a scourge in the field - dirt. On the Russian Plain, it is clay - a soft, finely dispersed substance, while in street battles it is building mud, of an imaginative nature, close to sand. So concrete, cement and bricks are actually made from sand. Here the MP is in trouble, and if in the clay mud he periodically refused to shoot, then here he went out of order. Our weapons school relies on dirt and frost. Therefore, the reliability of the PPSh was inherited by the AK and PM. But the fear of dirt and frost passed from Parabellum, MP by inheritance, to Berettas, M-16 and other Henklers.
      1. Terran ghost
        Terran ghost 25 March 2021 14: 06
        -1
        Effective range - the elimination of the enemy is guaranteed, little dependent on the shooter. Sighting - the elimination of the enemy is guaranteed if the shooter is average, not cross-eyed

        We open GOST 28653-90 "Small arms. Terms and definitions" and look
        332. Sighting range of small arms - the distance from the point of departure of the projectile to the intersection of the trajectory with the line of sight of small arms, corresponding to the largest division of the sight

        that is, the aiming range is the maximum range for which the weapon's sight is marked. Regardless of whether it is possible to hit the target at this range at all or not.
        From there
        335. Range of effective fire from small arms - the distance at which, with a given probability, it is ensured that the target is hit by one burst of shots or one single shot from small arms

        Again, there is no question of any "guaranteed liquidation".
        But the bullet still retains its lethal force at 700-800 meters. Although the PPS, that with the PPSh, are brothers of the same age, in general, the maximum range is set at 1000 meters, which, of course, is more likely to preserve the lethal effect of the bullet

        At PPP arr. 1943, the sight had positions corresponding to ranges of 100 meters and 200 meters. All. There weren't any 1000 meters there.
        it relies on dirt

        But the fear of dirt and frost passed from Parabellum, MP by inheritance, to Berettas, M-16 and other Henklers.

        As they say, instead of a thousand words (s)
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyXndCxn9K4
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyaSAuT0NR0
        1. hrych
          hrych 25 March 2021 14: 43
          -1
          Do not lay out these terms to me, I read them perfectly on the Internet. And how does this contradict the fact that the target is guaranteed to be hit, if not cross-eyed? Combined rear sight and front sight and hit, if not defective.
          Quote: Terran Ghost
          Regardless of whether it is possible to hit the target at this range at all or not.

          If you think so, then go to school. wassat At least turn on the brain. And then you spread the TERMIN to me and do not get into the words, they say, the coincidence of the trajectory of the bullet (projectile) with the aiming line. So aim and hit, if it matches wassat Arguing for the sake of arguing? So turn on your brain. I'm not even going to look at your links. Keep yours instead of a thousand words. For PPS, see the characteristics, even in VIKI, there is a maximum range of 1000 meters. Go argue with the editors of Wikipedia, not me. If you have set your clever sights from 200 meters, this does not mean that shooting at 200 meters. This is shooting FROM 200 meters and above. UP TO THE MAXIMUM RANGE. Ferstein? The target can be both a congestion of manpower and huge trucks with personnel on board. Is this not a goal anymore? Give you a gun and an armored personnel carrier again? Shoot from what was given, and do not philosophize. In the case of the PPSh, there is an initial, sectorial sight with a mark of 500 meters, at least according to GOST, at least not according to GOST, and you cannot change this. And since the PPSh has not changed constructively, then gulp what they give. The aiming range of the PPSh is 550 meters in accordance with GOST and its initial, sectorized sight. The line of sight coincided with the trajectory of the projectile. Or is it not so? Although it was later given a simplified, cheap sight, its aiming range has NOT CHANGED. And the new sight was adjusted for effective shooting and cheapness, but the sector sight is original and you can't get away from it. And even a simplified sight from 200 to 300 meters and ABOVE, up to the maximum range. Nobody canceled the amendment, take it with the amendment. Maximum range - characterized by the limiting or maximum possibility of using weapons. And your brother is not embarrassed by the sight mark at 1000 meters on a Mauser pistol with the same cartridge, but for some reason the entry in Wikipedia caused diarrhea (I just gave it) that the maximum range of the PPS is 1000 meters. Everything, urgently to school.
          1. Terran ghost
            Terran ghost 25 March 2021 16: 48
            -1
            If you have set your clever sights from 200 meters, this does not mean that shooting at 200 meters. This is shooting from 200 meters and above. UP TO THE MAXIMUM RANGE.

            What is the "maximum range"?
            Combined rear sight and front sight and hit, if not defective.

            In the case of the PPSh, there is an initial, sectorial sight with a mark of 500 meters

            Just for your reference. For PPSh, when firing at a distance of 300 meters, the excess of the bullet trajectory over the line of sight is 98 centimeters. In a simple way - you need to aim the arrow at a point one meter above the target. In this situation, the shooter does not really see the goal itself from the word "in general". Taking into account the fact that when shooting at a distance of 200 meters, the figure of this excess is only 36 centimeters ...
            but for some reason the entry in Wikipedia caused diarrhea (I just gave it) that the maximum range of the PPS is 1000 meters

            I do not know who it was supposed to "cause diarrhea", but this entry is simply illiterate. Easily refuted by the "Manuals on Shooting Business", in which there is no such figure even close.
            1. hrych
              hrych 25 March 2021 17: 29
              0
              For example, AK has a division with the letter P on the bar, so that the bar does not touch at all when shooting from point-blank to half a kilometer. The direct shot range of the AK-74 assault rifle is approximately 440 meters. It is for this distance, on average, that the sight is designed, installed at the first risk (ie, in the "P" position), and at a firing range of over 400 meters it is recommended to aim at the middle of the target, and up to 400 meters - slightly lower. Please use the algorithm for the PPSh flip sight. So, actually, they worked, and successfully, since they took the Reichstag ..
              Quote: Terran Ghost
              this entry is simply illiterate
              No, not illiterate, but real. The cartridge is not frail and completely retains its destructive effect, and the Mauser, with a shorter barrel and bar divisions, only confirms this. It's just that the Mauser manufacturers have graduated to the maximum range of the weapon. Good Mauser, and poor TT. He has a bullet range of 800-1000 meters, with a small sighting. With his short barrel opposite to PPS. Therefore, your instruction is apparently left.
              1. Terran ghost
                Terran ghost 26 March 2021 12: 14
                -1
                equal to about 440 meters. It is for this distance, on average, that the sight is designed, set at the first risk (that is, in the "P" position)

                Actually, this is exactly how the position of the "P" sight on the AK74M allows you to fire at a distance of up to 440 meters at a chest figure and up to 540 meters at a height figure. Therefore, these ranges are called direct shot ranges for this type of weapon. But the key word here is "UP TO a certain distance."
                use the algorithm for the PPSh flip sight

                It remains only to find out what the PPSh has a direct shot range. There is an assumption that this figure will be somewhere between 150 and 200 meters. It is up to this distance that you can "use your proposed algorithm."
                Now there is one more moment, far from the last one. The blunt-nosed, relatively low-speed (compared, for example, with the same 5,45mm automatic bullet), the bullet of the 7,62mm TT cartridge begins to suffer quite noticeably from the phenomenon of derivation. That is, only due to this phenomenon, a scatter of bullet hit points appears, even if the weapon is accurately aimed at the target and fixed on the shooting stand, and there is no side wind.
                And if, when firing from a PPSh at a distance of 100 meters, the derivation will give a spread of only 10 centimeters in diameter, and at 200 meters - 20 centimeters, then at 350 meters only due to derivation the spread of hit points will be a circle with a diameter of 50 centimeters, and at 500 meters - 1 meter.
                1. hrych
                  hrych 26 March 2021 13: 16
                  0
                  Not every bullet has its own derivation, but all bullets have approximately the same derivation. Therefore, the sighting device is adjusted for it in advance when zeroing in. The distance of several hundred meters is not great and a decent muzzle velocity of a bullet, not a relatively low velocity one. This is comparatively low-speed for the MP. Automatic fire, where PPSh is the king, also has its own rules. And I beg you, don't say anything about the stand and the yews. The fight is not a stand, and the hands of a fighter are not yew. The PPSh has a wooden-rifle bed opposite the loose under-attachment of the MP. And this gives the best-real accuracy, the best-real sighting range. And here, of course, the comparison with the unfortunate MP is simply inappropriate. Let's compare with PPS and PPSh here again the king. Algorithm with division "P" in terms of aiming, i.e. aim lower or higher using the reversible sight. And for some reason you are all appealing with a single, growth goal. And the accumulation of manpower is not the goal? Is the manned truck not the target? Therefore, the aiming range for a congestion of the enemy is always farther than the aiming range for a single, growth target. And in a real battle of the Second World War, it is the concentration of the enemy that is hit by continuous fire and at the limit of the lethal force of a submachine gun. And the barrage is created from the distance - the limit of destructive power and closer, and not vice versa. For the enemy is approaching, not receding. And if the unfortunate MP forces the fighter to pass a hundred-meter shaft of fire without the opportunity to respond, to press the enemy and thus at least reduce the density of the oncoming fire, then this is suicide, laid down in advance. And although on average 20% were amazed from small arms, but this is not a joke and a significant contribution to the Victory. Also, the terrible psychological effect and horror of the Germans in such clashes, where they wavered, although the fighting qualities of the Germans are very high, and Sturmgever did not have time to turn the tide. Although it would certainly have given the Germans an advantage and has already shown this in a real battle.
          2. Alexfly
            Alexfly 27 March 2021 12: 48
            0
            Tell me my friend, Hrych, if the maximum range of the PPS with 7,62x25 current is 1000m, then what is the maximum range for Mosin-Nagan with 7,62x54R? Well, so, at a glance ...
        2. hrych
          hrych 25 March 2021 15: 31
          +1
          All the same, I looked at your links. And what does this prove? Anointed and sprinkled on top? So what? It is the finely dispersed dust that is terrible, which is the suspension. It penetrates the ears, nose, all mechanisms, including the trunk. If you watched how the AK is being tested, then this is a dust chamber, plus they did not sprinkle it with a jar, but 10 kg of quartz dust and shoot 6 stores with queues, and not single ones. As the saying goes: "Feel the difference." Enjoy.
          1. Terran ghost
            Terran ghost 26 March 2021 12: 03
            -1
            Well, firstly, not just sprinkled with sand on top, but from all sides and shaking the weapon well.
            It is finely dispersed dust that is terrible, which suspension

            Well, that's just the tests with suspension. The results are about the same as in those videos in which I gave the link earlier.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrPjlcJ3rtY
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hBXCvYIuk
            1. hrych
              hrych 26 March 2021 12: 14
              +1
              This is the street and the disgusting thing - fine dust flies by. In the chamber, it is precisely the worst case, it is not carried away by the wind, but fills all cavities, including the barrel. Sawed the casing? Some? wassat What does this prove? AK has more than 70 years of impeccable service in the sands, jungles, mountains and freezing temperatures. This is his main test. When these rifles pass, then they can be compared. So far, only some kind of selfie-game of stupid people.
          2. Alexfly
            Alexfly 27 March 2021 12: 54
            -1
            With such tolerances as AK, it can be dunked into concrete and it will shoot .. Nothing more .. Nothing new .. In the USA or NATO, as you like, cartridges come from civilians: from shooters and hunters, almost everything. The army selects what becomes relevant. In the USSR and its successor, what they give ... Therefore, development is not enough ...
  • Simargl
    Simargl 23 March 2021 00: 21
    +1
    Quote: Intruder
    exactly, and posthumous awards !?
    Why not? We win in the distance - we get protection by super-tight pressing.
  • Avior
    Avior 22 March 2021 19: 54
    +4
    Glock has a single action trigger with a pre-platoon drummer.
    Maybe this is what you need?
  • mark1
    mark1 22 March 2021 18: 38
    +3
    I bring in my 2 kopecks. A very good high-impulse cartridge in a blowback pistol is combined with a powerful return spring (which will dampen this high impulse). But the use of this leads to serious physical efforts when cocking the shutter casing (an example of Dreise pistols from the WWII era). Therefore, the spring must be replaced with two - the main (very tight) and the auxiliary (not very ...). One under the barrel, the other on the barrel. The main spring is made to be disconnected (by means of a latch) and does not create resistance when manually charged (pulled). Also, the main spring can be turned off (or even removed) when using low-impulse cartridges. I think a front damper is desirable
    1. Operator
      22 March 2021 19: 33
      +4
      A powerful recoil spring will break the bolt and breech when the bolt is rolled to the extreme forward position.

      Therefore, instead of one powerful return spring, a standard spring is used in combination with a buffer - elastomeric (OTs-27), spring (VP70) or pneumatic (PP Suomi).
      1. mark1
        mark1 22 March 2021 19: 44
        +3
        I said about the buffer (when returning to the front position).
        A free shutter circuit with a powerful spring was used in Draise, the only thing I suggested using instead of one spring is 2 of them, one can be disconnected (how? If you have an engineering education, this is not a problem for you. There are many options)
        1. Operator
          22 March 2021 21: 27
          +2
          A front breech buffer is not possible by definition - then the breech will bounce back instead of closing the bore.
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 05: 28
        +1
        Explain, please, how "only double trigger" is combined with the increased accuracy of your concept?
        1. Operator
          23 March 2021 08: 44
          0
          Double trigger means that the force on the trigger / key must be at least 1,5 kgf (elastic force of the mainspring plus friction losses). Sports pistols for practical shooting are equipped with a single trigger and have a force of 1 kgf - the difference is not great.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 09: 49
            +1
            Quote: Operator
            Double trigger means that the force on the trigger / key must be however 1,5 kgf
            Let's not believe it! For the PM, the descent forces are indicated, at self-cocking as 3,5 kg, and with a preliminary cocking of 1,5 kg, there can be a striker mechanism only with self-cocking less effort for cocking requires, but personally I doubt that much less.
            1. Operator
              23 March 2021 10: 24
              0
              I told you the standard effort on the trigger of the Glock-17 with a striker trigger, and not the effort on the trigger of the PM with the trigger trigger.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 10: 34
                0
                Quote: Operator
                I told you the standard effort on the trigger of the Glock-17 with a striker trigger, and not the effort on the trigger of the PM with the trigger trigger.
                Not certainly in that way.
                Quote: Operator
                Double trigger means that the force on the trigger / key must be at least 1,5 kgf (elastic force of the mainspring plus friction losses).


                Well, the figures of the Glock trigger are somewhat different.
                The trigger pull is 2,5 kg and can be adjusted from 2 to 4 kg

                And the grades are not very
                great effort and the length of the trigger stroke, which in general are quite acceptable, but nevertheless negatively affect the accuracy of aimed shooting, say at a distance of 14 meters, in comparison with pistols equipped with a double or single action trigger.
                1. Operator
                  23 March 2021 10: 59
                  +2
                  Let it be 2 kg, an effort of 4 kg is used mainly in the USA, where poor shooting training of police officers leads to a large number of cross-arrows from the popular "Glocks" at the moment of getting / inserting from / into the holster of this pistol without a safety lock. - injured policemen put their index finger on the trigger even before the weapon exits / enters the holster, and an obstacle in the form of clothing or the edge of the holster leads to a spontaneous shot.

                  Another thing is that the police regularly wear a holster on their side and in the case of a lean build, the bullet would have passed the thigh or buttocks, but the victims are usually well-fed people laughing
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 22 March 2021 19: 34
      0
      Therefore, the spring must be replaced with two - the main (very tight) and the auxiliary (not very ...). One under the barrel, the other on the barrel. The main spring is made to be disconnected (by means of a latch) and does not create resistance when manually charged (pulled). Also, the main spring can be turned off (or even removed) when using low-impulse cartridges. I think a front damper is desirable
      Something is difficult even in real combat conditions, to control all this additionally, also a "latch platoon", and two springs, how will they compensate, they will work with each other! ??? request
      1. mark1
        mark1 22 March 2021 19: 41
        +3
        Quote: Intruder
        Something difficult ... .... how they will compensate for something will work, each other! ???

        You will understand, I believe in you.
    3. Ingenegr
      Ingenegr 22 March 2021 20: 32
      +6
      In systems with a free shutter, no return spring is able to dampen the recoil pulse of the shutter. It is precisely for this reason that it is called return, and not buffer or damper.
      Such an interesting discipline as "Dynamics and Strength of ITM" is taught in technical universities at specialized departments. Take an interest. Very informative and helpful.
      Now for some arithmetic:
      - the mass of the shutter is 300 g;
      - shutter speed (for cartridge 9x19 Para) 8x365 / 300 = 9.7 m / s;
      - we take the shutter travel equal to 35 mm, then the acceleration required to reduce the shutter speed upon arrival at the KZP to 3 m / s will be (3 ^ 2-9.7 ^ 2) / (2 × 0.035) = - 85.09 / 0.07 = -1216 m / c ^ 2;
      - the spring force required for braking (average) will be 0.3x1216 = 365 N or 37 kg.
      The maximum force will be approximately 2 ... 3 times greater with a spring stiffness of 35 kN / m or 35 kg / cm. Such a lousy spring, huh?
      Real braking is provided by the frictional force of the shutter when it moves along the guides of the frame.
      1. Operator
        22 March 2021 21: 36
        0
        The shutter rollback at VP-20 is 40 mm, the calculated pressure in the working cylinder of the pneumatic brake in the KZP before being discharged into the atmosphere reaches 30-40 atmospheres.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 23 March 2021 04: 09
          0
          There are elastomeric buffers that allow 5000 ATM, but of course not in pistols.
      2. Intruder
        Intruder 23 March 2021 00: 38
        -2
        In systems with a free shutter, no return spring is able to dampen the recoil pulse of the shutter. It is precisely for this reason that it is called return, and not buffer or damper.
        You overtook me, I waited a long time for the answer of "science fiction writers", after that:
        You will understand, I believe in you.

        Real braking is provided by the frictional force of the shutter when it moves along the guides of the frame.
        many do not know about it, although it is obvious ...wink :
        1. mark1
          mark1 23 March 2021 07: 57
          +1
          As soon as the friction force becomes somewhat significant in the operation of the free shutter automation, the shutter immediately turns from free to semi-free. It is obvious wink
      3. mark1
        mark1 23 March 2021 07: 17
        +1
        Let's look at Draize M1912 with a cocking lever (by the way, he fought) ... and the impossible becomes possible. The only thing I was concerned about was how to do without the lever mechanism and, accordingly, simplify (as well as universalize) the design.
        PS It is not worth blaming Dreise for the imperfection of the design, he was quite efficient and was on sale until the early 30s. But for the prototype, I would still take the 1903 Browning and add a spring to the barrel and refinements.
    4. Simargl
      Simargl 23 March 2021 01: 47
      -1
      Quote: mark1
      A very good high-impulse cartridge in a blowback pistol is combined with a powerful return spring
      Doesn't match! Even in the PM, the return spring is too tight and the pistol kicks more than the 9x19. And as a withdrawal from the line of sight ... there is even a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 380 under .380 ACP and with a short barrel travel ...
      1. mark1
        mark1 23 March 2021 07: 21
        +1
        Quote: Simargl
        the pistol kicks harder

        Subjective feeling, I didn't kick anything. Well, besides, forgive the entire text - the front damper (yes, at least pneumatic)
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 23 March 2021 07: 34
          -1
          Quote: mark1
          Subjective feeling, I didn't kick anything.
          May be. But the PM takes away from the line of sight more.
          Quote: mark1
          And besides, forgive the entire text - front damper
          How do you imagine this?
          Quote: mark1
          Therefore, the spring must be replaced with two - the main (very tight) and the auxiliary (not very ...)
          Well, there will be a disconnectable main spring, so what? Either way, both will work when firing.
          1. mark1
            mark1 23 March 2021 07: 44
            +1
            Quote: Simargl
            How do you imagine this?

            For example, air bypass inside the guide tube of the lower spring. You see, everyone is torturing me, what and how and when they refer to their technical education. But if you have a good education, why don't you see the obvious and ask about nonsense decisions?
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 23 March 2021 15: 41
              -1
              Quote: mark1
              For example, air bypass inside the guide tube of the lower spring.
              Pneumatic brake - there are such solutions. So what?

              Quote: mark1
              But if you have a good education, why don't you see the obvious and ask about nonsense decisions?
              I am trying to isolate a possibly valuable solution from bullshit.
  • Aag
    Aag 22 March 2021 19: 25
    +3
    I have blunted something, already in the drawing (this cannot be called a drawing) AJLahti, Fig 1 ... Detail 3 (presumably, a store fixing device) where (how) can it move? ...
    Item 5 is a skin deflorator arrow between the thumb and forefinger of the arrow?
    1. agond
      agond 22 March 2021 19: 58
      0
      It seems to me that in order to reduce the mass of the free bolt, it would be possible to attach a swivel washer with internal grooves sliding along special grooves on the outer surface of the barrel (approximately like a drill) to the bolt in the front sight area, when fired, the bolt will pull the clutch, which will rotate around the barrel and slow down shutter speed, and all this will happen without the use of a powerful return spring and without increasing the mass of the shutter as a whole
      1. Operator
        22 March 2021 21: 40
        +3
        Friction pairs are extremely unreliable in small arms, since they have to work in dirty conditions with a range of friction coefficients from 0 (liquid clay) to 1 (dry sand).
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 23 March 2021 01: 48
        -1
        Quote: agond
        it would be possible to attach a swivel washer with internal grooves sliding along special grooves on the outer surface of the barrel to the bolt in the front sight area
        Do you know what it looks like? PP Kalashnikov wink
  • Intruder
    Intruder 22 March 2021 19: 32
    0
    This is due to the insufficient stopping effect and penetrating ability of the latter. in the context of the proliferation of body armor.
    finally fellow , we remembered that now you can legally buy armor in the store, and plus, additionally hang plates at home .., and then on the street, alas, for patrol! wink
  • Intruder
    Intruder 22 March 2021 19: 39
    +1
    use an integrated spring-pneumatic bolt recoil brake, arranged in the dimensions of the front of the pistol around its barrel without increasing the dimensions of the structure.
    it will clog up with dirt or smoke, with poor cleaning, then there will be no rollback brakes, not all arrows are official and personal, they clean "to a white shawl" ...!?
    1. Operator
      22 March 2021 21: 48
      0
      The compression ring in VP-20 cuts off powder carbon deposits from the working cylinder of the pneumatic brake (in contrast to the MP-40), and the same "Glock" is perfectly clogged with dirt through numerous slots


      Personal small arms in the field must be cleaned regularly - that's the whole secret.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 23 March 2021 01: 49
        -1
        Quote: Operator
        with a ryaz the same "Glock" is perfectly hammered through numerous cracks
        How can you ?! Pour mud on the icon?
  • MORDVIN13rus
    MORDVIN13rus 22 March 2021 20: 24
    0
    OTs-27 "Berdysh" "will be more pleasant in terms of internal constructive, without any dancing with a tambourine.
    1. Operator
      22 March 2021 21: 51
      +1
      All OTs-27 are either in storage in the system of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Federal Penitentiary Service, or distributed as a weapon of self-defense to prosecutors, investigators, etc. The reason is the extremely low resource of the elastomeric buffer.

      Plus the weight of the OTs-27 is 930 grams due to the large weight of the shutter (400 grams) due to the low energy consumption of the elastomeric buffer, which makes the OTs-27 uncompetitive compared to the Glock-17 (625 grams) and PLC (730 grams) ...
  • Pontifex
    Pontifex 22 March 2021 22: 03
    +4
    Stop playing sports!
    A combat pistol is not required to hit a point 50 meters ...
    There are other types of weapons for this ...
    And the muck is not in the PY or GSH, but most likely in the author's head ...
    If nobody wants to buy our short-barrels, then we need to look at the domestic civil market and lobby for their legalization ...
    Weak?
    Apparently, yes ...
    And about the concepts, first revive or re-create the design personnel ... and make or buy machines, since there is no brain to create ...
    And here everyone can use the tongue .... good without bones ...))))
  • Avior
    Avior 22 March 2021 22: 36
    -1
    By optimizing the design, the concept of a pistol without a magazine includes only 16 assembly units, which is almost half the size of the Glock-17 (29 units).

    this is an incomplete disassembly of the Glock - 4 parts

    compare with the given

    The difference is obvious.
    The fact that the Glock trigger is possibly more complicated is the result of the fact that in a real pistol a lot of attention is paid to reliability and safety, in contrast to the preliminary computer layout.
    1. Operator
      23 March 2021 01: 12
      +2
      The second figure shows full disassembly of VP-20.

      A complete disassembly of the Glock looks like this

      1. Avior
        Avior 23 March 2021 01: 20
        0
        why are you comparing a real pistol with a simplified layout in terms of the number of parts?
        Not to mention the fact that the USM of the unit has been tested by time and operation (and most of the details are there), and yours is only a picture so far.
        Compare the partial disassembly illustrating your suggested diagram - this is the top of your drawing.
        A USM is a separate topic. As well as any grip pads, fuses or slide delay.
        1. Operator
          23 March 2021 02: 29
          0
          The explosion diagram VP-20 shows a complete set of parts (16), however.

          Incomplete disassembly of the VP-20 is carried out by dismantling the rear sight (1) with a dovetail attachment, removing the larva (2) from the bolt and removing the bolt (3), throttle sleeve (4), return spring (5) from the frame (6) and compression ring (7).
          1. Avior
            Avior 23 March 2021 09: 01
            -1
            You have, judging by the diagram, savings in the number of parts is achieved by a very simple trigger mechanism and the lack of available additional parts in the Glock, which improve this operational properties.
            And, as I understand it, you have not actually tested the design of your trigger, and you don’t know how it will work with real operating experience.
            In general, the design of the automation is much more complicated than in the Glock.
            1. Operator
              23 March 2021 09: 15
              0
              Indeed, the VP-20 in its composition contains an assembly of a larva and a drummer mounted in it from two parts, a combat and a rebound spring. When disassembled in a weapons workshop, four more parts are added to the number of pistol parts - a total of 20 primary parts.

              "Glock-17" contains two units:
              - a returnable spring device of two springs and a guide;
              - trigger rod with trigger, safety pedal, hook and pedal axles, pedal spring.
              A total of 7 additional parts and a total of 35 primary parts.

              What is the complexity of the design of the fully functional VP-20 USM, which contains 6 primary parts (instead of 12 for the Glock-17) and works on the principle of a slingshot (without preliminary cocking of the mainspring)?
              1. Avior
                Avior 23 March 2021 11: 00
                -1
                Did I write about complexity?
                On the contrary, the Glock is more complicated, he has a single action trigger with a pre-platoon, therefore there are more details, this is understandable.
                He has a proven circuit that works stably, including the fuses, and yours is only in theory.

                And until it is tested in practice, it is difficult to talk about the reliability of the trigger and the possibility of its application.
                Glokovites, perhaps, went through a hundred options, until they achieved their goal, and you have only the initial stage.
                1. Operator
                  23 March 2021 11: 17
                  0
                  Glock's design is a "deep tradition" (C) 40 years ago.

                  History is silent about the number of options that were considered during the creation of the Glock in the Austrian company for the production of entrenching tools. In general, any engineering design is first developed in the mind, then worked out on paper / in a computer, and only then a prototype is made. The 3D image of the concept was created in AutoCAD and checked for the fit of all parts in dynamics.

                  At the beginning of the article, its subject is called a concept, and only in this capacity is it compared with the conceptual approaches used in Glock.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 24 March 2021 09: 26
                    -1
                    Glockstal is a kind of standard for the modern pistol.
                    Here is a more recent Zig Sauer 320

                    Look at the complexity of its trigger.
                    Can you show a diagram of a real-life pistol with a trigger similar to the one presented by you, which has proven itself to be successful?
                    I don’t understand why you didn’t take a ready-made USM from a real pistol and focus on the automation, which you emphasized.
                    These are two completely different tasks.
                    The picture will withstand everything, you can draw a trigger from a children's pistol with caps, the diagram will also work formally in the picture, but in reality a huge amount of tests is being carried out.
                    1. Operator
                      24 March 2021 14: 46
                      +1
                      40 years ago Gaston Glock made his trigger the way he could, 110 years ago John Browning made his trigger the best he could. 180 years ago, Samuel Colt made his trigger the best he could.

                      In your opinion, should you always return to the primary sources? laughing
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 24 March 2021 15: 13
                        0
                        Not. But from the picture it is impossible to assert about the effectiveness of the USM application. Otherwise, the trigger from a children's pistol will be the best - it will work great on the model
                      2. Operator
                        24 March 2021 16: 19
                        +1
                        I adhere to the principle of evolution - if the Glock has a shock trigger with a pre-fired mainspring, then why not make a trigger without pre-firing (and easier and more reliable)?

                        The drawing is secondary, the main thing is the function, in this case the trigger of the crossbow.
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 22 March 2021 23: 10
    +5
    The accuracy or inaccuracy of the pistol is ensured by the reliability of the barrel LOCKING at the moment of the shot. And this is achieved in several ways. For example, the accuracy of the fit. These are the so-called "race guns", pistols specially made for competition. As a rule, this is a model of an already serial pistol, fitted to the limit. An example of such a pistol is the Tanfoglio Witness match Extreme, https://eaacorp.com/product/tanfoglio-witness-match-xtreme/. By the way, even such a race gun, as a rule, then each shooter modifies for himself. The second option is the so-called "slide within frame". when not the shutter "hugs" the frame, but the frame hugs the slide. This solution is used in Chz75 and its heirs, for example Tanfoglio Witness of all brands. Another option, demonstrates the Beretta PX4 pistol, where the barrel rotates around its axis. It also works on the Grand Power K100, the concept is the same, the performance is slightly different. Another option is Arsenal Strike 1. There the trunk is locked not with a skew, but with a special shift, with a straight backward movement. Blow back system pistols should really be more accurate IN THEORY, but this is a spherical horse in a vacuum. You see, to the market of practical shooting, when people spend 2000-3000 dollars on a race gun, and then they still adjust it, if the THEORY that blowback pistols are more accurate, then it would have already been made, the market for it, especially in the USA - huge. But theory and practice are two different things. Precise fit of parts, with minimal tolerances, good clear trigger action, good interior finish of the barrel, and fit to the arm, in practice, affect accuracy and accuracy much more than whether the barrel is moving or not. Another practical factor is a common shooter's skill level. If your aiming line is 4-5 inches, then it is very difficult to achieve high accuracy when shooting at 50 meters with a pistol, I do not argue that there are people who can do this. But the average police officer, even in the United States, where they are given a large amount of ammunition for training, the accuracy of police fire from pistols is 35%, it is generally that they hit a criminal. Anywhere. And given that they usually shoot from a distance of 50 feet or less. And the reason is not that the "barrel moves" but that: a) the sighting line is short, b) shooting from hands without a stop (there is no stock), c) Shooting is conducted under HUGE nervous tension. Whether the barrel moves or not, there will be no difference, since the specifics of the work. If a police officer has to open fire from a distance of 50 meters, then for this he has an M4, or, in some small towns, a carbine for a pistol cartridge. If you are making a pistol for the POLICE, then it makes no sense to issue race guns to the police. At the shooting range, even from standard glocks, they calmly put 10 shots at a target less than a person's head from 10-12 meters. And during a shootout with criminals, they (like everyone except the special forces) will be shaken, so even with a race gun, as there were 33-35% accuracy, they will remain. And consider the specifics of the work. Policemen rarely shoot pistols from a distance of 50 meters. Civilians who wear a conceal carry also do not shoot from 50 meters, as a rule, they work at even shorter distances, 5-10 meters. Nobody in practical life shoots at 50 meters from a pistol. It is easy to miss, and for all the cases that the bullet will do them, you will have to answer, even if you just drop someone's glass - they will be dragged through the courts for a "nervous shock". If you are making a universal pistol for civilians, then, firstly, most civilians do not spend 250-500 rounds per month on training, their training is initially low, and they do not need a new concept weapon (which, due to its novelty, will be expensive) ... There just won't be any difference. Athletes will buy race guns and finish them off. Individual tuning, as well as minimum tolerances, precision in machining, as well as fit for the hand, will be needed even on a "theoretical" pistol with a fixed barrel. Otherwise, the accuracy will be at zero. In the United States and Europe, a different path has been outlined - high-impulse cartridges with low recoil. For example 5.7x28. A Ruger 57 pistol was made for it in the USA, which shows very good accuracy and penetration at 50 meters, with a recoil only slightly different from 5.6 (22lr), there are other calibers, for example, the rather old 22WMR, revolvers and a Kel Tek PMR30 pistol are made for it , this is a very good ammunition for RIFLE, but in the pistol, due to the slowly burning powder, the potential is not fully used. In rifles, the 22WMR shows results comparable to the 5.7x28, at a cost two times lower. The Rock Island Arsenal company created its own cartridge, 22TCM is a shortened 5.56 NATO sleeve compressed under a 5.6mm cartridge, the ballistics is identical to 5.7x28, but such a cartridge is cheaper to manufacture, and it is cheaper to make pistols for it, since the bottom of the sleeve is almost identical to 9mmx19, and 9x19 gates work quietly for this caliber. Rock Island arsenal produces the M1911 in this caliber.
    A system with a fixed barrel for calibers 9mm and higher is either a heavier system, or its complication (with a decrease in reliability and an increase in price). Precise fit, tight tolerances, precision interior finishing + low impulse cartridges are a much cheaper way to improve PRACTICAL firing accuracy. It must be remembered that the Olympic shooting is one thing, ISPC is another, the work of a police officer, this is the third, the conceal carry, this is the fourth, the army pistol is the fifth, and the civilian pistol is the sixth. It is simply impossible to make ONE pistol for ALL requirements at an acceptable price, although the cz75 and Ruger 57 came close to this.
    1. Operator
      23 March 2021 01: 38
      0
      The technical accuracy of shooting from firearms, including pistols, is ensured by a set of solutions:
      the most significant is a fixed and free-hanging barrel (which is the case in free-action pistols and not in pistols with a short barrel stroke);
      second in importance is small tolerances for the manufacture of parts (but this reduces the reliability of the pistol's automation in the field);
      the third in importance is the length of the sighting line (the VP-20 has seven inches).

      The bolt guides in the VP-20 are the barrel breech (and not the frame, as in all other pistols). This is the most optimal solution for shooting accuracy.

      In calibers 9x19 and 9x21 there is a large number of cartridges with bullets weighing up to 5 grams and an initial velocity of up to 500 m / s, which provide flat shooting at a distance of 50 meters or more, so you do not need to experiment with other calibers.

      As for shooting training, this is the subject of a separate article.
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 23 March 2021 08: 33
        +3
        I repeat. If a fixed bolt were the most important factor in shooting accuracy, then all exercises at 3 and 7 meters would be won by Walter PPK, Makarov, and Cz82 / 83, and others like them. But we DO NOT OBSERVE this. Of non-tuning pistols at these distances, who rules? Cz75 and derivatives, M1911 in 45ACP, 38 Super and 9mm and Walther PPQ. Why? And because the CZ75 and its derivatives have a slide within frame, the M1911 has an excellent trigger, and besides, there are several design features. Well, Walter has an excellent fit of parts and workmanship and an excellent trigger, very light and sensitive. By the way, PPQ is NOT recommended for police, but recommended for special forces. Precisely because of the very light tension on the trigger ... If a pistol with a fixed barrel was needed for super accuracy, it would be made. Fortunately, pistols in the USA, Italy, Germany and the Czech Republic know how to do what.In general, the accuracy of a pistol depends on the following features:

        Mechanical Accuracy Features: (repeatable lock-up): (Mechanical factors affecting accuracy)
        20% eliminate rear barrel play. (Fixing the trunk in the rear position with a full rollback, it must be motionless)
        20% consistent vertical lug lock-up. The shutter must lock completely and always in the same way. (I know that it is bone-lingual)
        20% barrel / slide bushing fit. (no gaps between the barrel and the front of the bolt)
        15% frame / slide play. (no dangling between the shutter and the frame)
        10% match grade barrel. (barrel specially made for target shooting)
        10% headspace. (so that the size of the chamber matches the cartridge - that is, if we have 9x19, then the headspace should be exactly 19mm, and not 18.9mm or 19.1mm
        5% unreachable.

        Shooter Assisting Features:
        50% good trigger. (good trigger)
        25% good sights. This includes long sight radius. (good sights, this includes scope radius)
        25% Misc., Like good ammo, grips, etc. (Ammunition, grip, ITD)

        Forgive me that in English, I don’t know half of these terms in Russian at all.

        You can add factors such as the height of the trunk line above the hand. But on the other hand, it is quite high in the Springfield XD pistols and in the Sig Sauer pistols, but in practice this does not manifest itself, moreover, Sig won the competition against Glock for the contract of our Army. According to THEORY, the high barrel line increases the toss and complicates the follow-up shots, in practice and in our army tests this has NOT been confirmed.

        If the theory that the misalignment of the barrel (that is, its movement) affects the accuracy, then this would be proven by practice. Pistols Beretta PX4, Beretta 92, Coguar and Grand Power K100, work on barrel TURN and not on skew. ON THE IDEA, they should have taxied in the minus of their competitors, but this DIDN'T HAPPEN. Because the PRACTICAL accuracy is different from the THEORETICAL. According to THEORY, yes, the PH4 should surpass the same cz75 COMPACT in accuracy, but this DOES NOT HAPPEN in practice, even when shooting from the stand. The "fixed barrel" theory is better than the movable one, as well as the theory that a system working on a bore misalignment is less accurate than a system where there is no bore misalignment (PX4), it is also a THEORY that is NOT CONFIRMED by practice. Here in the USA people have a lot of pistols. But ISPC and IDPA are still ruled by old systems. The same M1911, cz75, Springfield HD, Smith & Wesson M & P, Beretta 92. And their derivatives. Right now, Walter PPQ long slide has begun to be used.Even in the Compact division, although the PX4 is compact, it is not used much. If the THEORY that the system with a skewed barrel is less accurate, then everyone would have switched to PH4 and Beretta 92, this did not happen. Practice did NOT confirm the theory.


        By the way, one of the problems of direct blowback pistols is increased recoil, since no mechanisms slow down or absorb the impulse, and the addition of "recoil devices" to the pistol will only complicate and increase the cost of its design.
        That is, we first SIMPLIFY the design so that fewer parts move and increase accuracy, and then we COMPLICATE it back to reduce recoil, since increased recoil badly affects accuracy. It's Crazy. When I served, our first sergeant had TWO favorite expressions. Both are applicable to this situation: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" - if something is NOT broken, don't fix it. And the second is an abbreviation - KISS "Keep It Simple, Stu5! D" - in order to avoid problems with the administration, I will not translate this. The proverb is not addressed to YOU ​​personally, but simply what our sergeant said - do not look for difficult solutions to easy problems. So, to simplify the design so that the barrel does not twitch, and then complicate it to get rid of recoil is a dubious progress. But the rise in price, complication and decrease in the reliability of the structure is guaranteed. Do you want the perfect pistol, hassle-free and inexpensive? Lord, here you are, and we don't scratch our left ear with our right hand.
        a) we take the trigger from the M1911, that is, the trigger moves back, and does not turn on the axis. And at the same time, it is quite simple to manufacture and reliable.
        b) The frame hugs the shutter. (As in the CZ75), moreover, we make the frame lengthened so that it hugs the shutter for as long as possible (Tanfoglio Witness). This makes the balance of the pistol more towards the barrel, but reduces the toss when fired.
        c) For Beretta 92 and PX4, the barrel locks without skewing (if you really do not like the system with a skewed barrel, although in practice there is no difference in accuracy), this can be done so that the system is locked not by skewing but by turning. If you believe in Theory. So far, as I already told you, the theory that systems working with a tilting barrel are less tagged than systems where there are none has not been confirmed.
        d) We make a 5.3-inch barrel for the maximum sight radius, and to squeeze everything we can from the 9x19 cartridge. In theory, you can tighten the barrel up to 6 inches, but in competitions they introduced restrictions on the length of the barrel, so in competitions, barrels longer than 5.3 inches are not allowed. Therefore, GLock stopped producing the GLock 17L. Tanfoglio produces the Hunter with a 6 '' barrel chambered for 10mm, but this is not a competition model, but a hunting model.
        e) We make the magazine and feed system like a Steyr M. pistol. That first, the bolt pulls the cartridge back, and then feeds it into the chamber, this reduces the overall length of the pistol and reduces the weight a little.

        You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Do not follow the example of Tom the cat from "Tom and Jerry" who invented wildly complex mousetraps, do not follow the example of Wile E Coyote, who also loved to invent complex systems. For neither Tom the cat nor Coyote, the love of complex systems "to improve the original" did not work.
        1. Operator
          23 March 2021 08: 59
          0
          All the factors you have cited are secondary in comparison with the main one - the trunk is mobile or motionless. At the same time, the effect of the standard barrel tilt when disengaging from the bolt is also secondary, since it occurs after the bullet has escaped.

          A movable barrel (it doesn't matter if it is rotating or canted) means the inevitable play between the barrel and the bolt. While a specially made sports pistol for target shooting with a tight fit of the barrel and bolt has a shot within 1000 shots and, accordingly, a small backlash, the weapon shows better accuracy than a gross copy of the same PM. After 1000 shots, their technical accuracy is compared - and this is subject to an order of magnitude difference in prices for sports and gross models, as well as no performance of the first in army tests for dust and moisture.

          The length of the VP-20 barrel is practically equal to the length of the Glock-17 barrel - 115 and 114 mm, respectively (the difference of 1 mm is taken to compensate for the ejector entry into the barrel chamber).

          I did not understand - where did you see the complexity of manufacturing a VP-20 from 16 assembly units compared to the Glock from 28 assembly units?
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 23 March 2021 20: 00
            +1
            I don’t know how many times to explain to you. Your idea for a fixed-barrel fix is ​​a spherical horse in a vacuum. even at a distance of 7 meters, Berettas, Glocks and others like them are superior in accuracy to both PPK and Chz82 (at least they are NOT inferior to them, did not shoot from PPK, but shot from cz82). About Cz75 or Walter PPQ, I just keep silent. And no "fixed trunk" helps. This is a THEORY that is NOT CONFIRMED by practice. And it's not that 9x19 is more powerful, there is not much difference in trajectories by 20 feet. All this has already been tested and tried to do before you. Yes, any gunsmith will say that "IN THEORY" yes, you are really right. And a fixed-gate system "should" be more accurate. But this is not happening. As well as "In theory" all gunsmiths will say that systems where the barrel does not twist to lock should be more accurate than tilt barrel lock systems. But again, THEORY is one thing, REALITY is another. No race gun, for competition, was made with a pivoting barrel or a straight barrel system. No one. Moreover, in theory, you can make a pistol for 9x19 with a fixed barrel and hang a muzzle brake on the nose. Nobody did this either, although it would seem that it could be simpler. If fans of target shooting spend 2500-3000 bucks per gun, and then they finish it, then if your idea were not unfounded Theory, then it would have been done here long ago. In the United States, where there is no prohibition on the civilian possession of short-barrels. This is what kind of money could be cut down if this theory is at least somehow confirmed by practice. Make yourself a pistol out of 16 parts, screw on the muzzle brake, and sell for 2500-3000 bucks what business, what profits, and how "stupid" American, Italian, German and Czech gunsmiths did not think of it, but you did it. What a pity that theory is not reality.

            Even in economics, theory is one thing, practice is another. There is a theory of "Trickle down wealth", which is beautiful in theory, but not in practice. In practice, no one saw her. As well as your idea of ​​a fix - a fixed trunk. You will not get accuracy. But you have to come up with all sorts of crap to absorb the impact. That will only make the gun more expensive and more complicated.

            I understand that there is a desire to be known as the new Kalashnikov, New Tokarev, new Browning or Walter, and they will make some money. First for development, then for revision, then for revision, then for production, then for revision of production, and so on ad nauseum. somewhere I have already heard this, then it ended sadly for the "genius innocently repressed designer", but now go for it, the system has learned to forgive, unfortunately. So go for it. But I'm ready to bet 500 bucks against the cuff that nothing good will come of your concept. It can and will work. But it will be a complex, expensive machine, which will not have any advantages over even the standard Glock, M&P or HDM, moreover, even the standard Sarsilmaz 2000 or Tristar P120 will not have. And the standard, non-tuning Cesettes and Tanfoglio will drive your "brilliant" car to the minus. Wile E Coyote with you, an hour out of your family? He, too, loved to invent "new and brilliant" ideas.

            In any case, you want to make a really simple and clear kid's pistol - I have already given you the ideas. the loot in half. To me for the idea. In contrast to the "increased accuracy of a system with a fixed barrel", the set of ideas that I suggested to you showed themselves and proved themselves not on pieces of paper (which will withstand everything, as you know), but in real life.


            You ask me very condescendingly whether I know the manufacturing technology of VP20. No, I do not know. And I’ll ask you, how many pistols did you fire? How many different systems do you personally own? For example, I have every right to compare the Grand Power K100 with the Beretta PX4 - I have both. I have every right to compare Chz75 with Tanfoglio Witness match, I have both. In the Army, I fired from M9, moreover, I have m9 expert qualification. (the lowest level, but still there). And the fact that Chz75 is more accurate than Glock, I can tell you from personal experience. Even when it comes to quantity, detail, let me teach you a lesson, Monsieur Zaznayka. Look at the barrel of the K100 pistol and compare it to the barrel of the Glock. One detail both there and there, what do you think is more difficult to do? Glock barrel or K100 barrel. so the QUANTITY of parts does not mean anything if we do not have the comparative COMPLEXITY of the parts. Moreover. The AK receiver can be made either by milling or stamping. Question on filling, Mse "Expert", which of these details is more difficult and more expensive to do. One detail, but still cheaper to stamp (hint). Moreover, the upper part of the M4 receiver can be made milled or "forged". Forged is not only cheaper but also generally more durable. So the sheer amount of detail is not an indicator.
            1. Operator
              23 March 2021 20: 27
              -2
              I fired an AKM at 100 meters singles in 1974 in a training regiment as part of the school's basic military training program and from PM (100 shots) and Glock-17 (100 shots) this year at a shooting range with an instructor at 10, 15 and 25 meters.

              In all cases, I fulfilled the army shooting standards without preparation - a native ability, not otherwise :)

              Subjectively, the Glock-17 sits much more comfortably in the hand, the recoil is perceived as in the PM, despite the difference in muzzle energy and pistol weight. However, the accuracy of my fire from the PM for some reason (fixed barrel, no?) Surpassed the accuracy of fire from the Glock-17, despite the fact that the technical condition of both pistols was very good.

              Yes: I was also taught intuitive shooting "from the hip" at a distance of 10 meters - without using sights only in the direction of the index finger of a strong hand, lying on the frame above the trigger guard before pulling the trigger. This is what I liked the most.

              In any case, at my disposal in the shooting range there are many models of undisturbed pistols, rifles and carbines, but I have no desire to shoot since childhood, since it is not interesting to punch the center of the target to rags from time to time. Street racing and diving are my sports.
            2. Pavel Ryabov
              Pavel Ryabov April 17 2021 05: 45
              0
              It seems that the Alien pistol is now widely advertised, specially designed for sports practical shooting. He has a fixed barrel and automatic equipment according to the Barnitske principle (gas braking of the bolt). It seems that the first impressions of people are positive.
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 23 March 2021 02: 01
      0
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      And given that they usually shoot from a distance of 50 feet or less.
      Exercises 15, 7 and 3 m. Yes.

      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Beretta PH4, where the barrel rotates around its axis.
      And GSh-18
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 23 March 2021 08: 45
        +1
        At home I have both the PH4 and K100, K100, by the way, it is more convenient and personally for me to shoot from it is easier. ... There is no GSh18, there was not even an opportunity to hold it. There was an opportunity to hold Strike 1. I decided not to take it, despite the good price. In which case, no spare parts or stores can be found. By the way, I liked Strike 1. Very comfortable, lying in the hand like a glove. True, I could not arrange "Dmitry's Trials" for him. Dmitry Test "Dmitry Test", this is my test for the reliability of the pistol. At the same time, you do not need to beat or drag on the sand or mud. A pistol is taken, and 12 magazines loaded with Tula or Wolfe cartridges are passed through it (200 shots somewhere). After each magazine, the pistol is given a Minute to cool down a little. If there are no delays, then the pistol has passed the simplest reliability test. Cartridges Toole and Wolfe are famous for their "dirty", and if after 200 shots the pistol works, then the pistol is not shit at least. Although I read that GSh18 also has problems, that the pistol simply does not differ in durability and falls apart quickly enough. I don’t know if it’s true, I don’t know if this problem has been solved. I would buy Strike 1 if there was a service center in the US. But I would gladly take Gyurza :-) But who will sell it to me in the USA :-)
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 23 March 2021 15: 04
          -1
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          Wolfe are famous for their "dirty", and if after 200 shots the pistol works - then the pistol is not shit at least.
          In fact, it only depends on how competently the automation system works and how late the sleeve starts to start.
          For example, in the Beretta it starts when the pressure in the barrel has practically dropped and gases do not break through towards the bolt, in the classic system with an earring - the sleeve begins to "crawl" almost immediately, in modern systems with a copier groove or "tooth" - the sleeve starts when it is dropped. pressure, and you can design the gun for maximum pressure relief by lengthening the coupled stroke.

          Quote: Baron Pardus
          I read that GSh18 also has problems, that the pistol simply does not differ in longevity and falls apart quickly enough.
          I think the problem is that there is no one to bring it up. The pistol, as it turned out, is a more complex weapon than a submachine gun.
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 23 March 2021 17: 45
            +1
            Taurus pistol 24/7 OSS, wedged during the 7th store. The sleeve got stuck in the chamber, after which delays began, every 3-4 shots. The pistol was sent back to the firm and was replaced. The new pistol passed the Dmitry Test without any problems. By the way, the VZ58 rifle of the Sentury Arms company failed the test in the same way, I test rifles with 10 magazines, Vz58 began to choke on the 5th magazine. Full sleeve extraction did not take place. Was sent to the Sentury Arms and replaced, the second rifle passed the test. Thus, testing the pistol with "dirty" ammunition in any case reveals defects. I'm not going to drown rifles in the mud or put metal dust in the bolt group and chamber there, but the weapon must fire factory ammunition, including Wolfe and Thula. By the way, in the USA the cartridges Monarch, Barnaul, Silver Bear and Golden Bear are considered to be more "pure" than Wolfe and Tula, and Bronze Bear.
            Tula and Wolfe are considered Reliable "go bang each time you pull a trigger", but not "match" or "dirty". However, that does not prevent the people from shopping with them. Cleaning Kit + 300 Wolf Ammo costs less than 300 Winchester Ammo.

            Well, about the pistols. After TT, nothing particularly worthwhile from serial pistols in the USSR and in Russia was done. I have 4 TTshki, Polish Radom (by the way, the most accurate), Romanian and two Yugo M57. All have been modified (fuse added), I can not say anything but good about TTs. Not a single misfire. They are still flat, so it's easy to carry them around. For some time I carried Radom + 2 shops as a conceal carry. Now I wear cz82 + 2 stores. Makarov is inferior to cz82 in ALL indicators. Stechkin is too heavy for a pistol, and is inferior in power to both Uzi and Vz24 (Czech ancestor of Uzi). It was a huge mistake for the USSR not to adopt the cz75. And from the pistols I read good reviews about Gyurza and Arsenal Strike One, you, EMNIP, call it Strizh. Although they said that the gyurza is heavy, and the 9x21 cartridges are inferior in power to the 357 Sig cartridges. But this is again what I read. He held Strike 1 in his paws, heavier than a Glock, but comfortable, by the way, many forget that the heavier the pistol, the less recoil a person feels. This plays a cruel joke with many Americans, especially women. They take a light pistol, even in caliber 380, and with surprise, having already paid, realize that a light little plastic pistol in 380 caliber kicks no less, and sometimes even more, than a 9mm Beretta or Smith and Wesson Military & Police.
  • Split
    Split 22 March 2021 23: 24
    +2
    The author somehow forgets that the solution lies in the other direction. And the fact that the main energy and impulse when the bullet passes through the channel is received by the shutter. The force with which the spring presses is negligible compared to the force that presses on the bottom of the liner (moreover, the maximum pressure is reached at the moment of penetration, i.e. when the liner is still resting dribbling in place - 3mm). And the resulting pulse of the bullet will be equal to the received pulse of the shutter. Accordingly, Obtained shutter speed = Bullet impulse / bolt mass. Accordingly, the return spring needs to absorb it, everything else will fall on the extreme position of the shutter and which directly affects the resource of the automation. And since the energy comes from the square of the speed, then in general there is a need for a low-impulse cartridge and play primarily from this (remember the same fnl with its 5,7). And to try on a free scheme to realize 9x19 higher from the evil one.
    Those. total
    1.small-pulse cartridge (here you have the penetrating power of the machine gun)
    2. Staple absorption of the energy of the shutter about the frame
    those. for example, a type shutter has a separate movable cylinder ... it is extinguished by a smaller spring. But in the rear part, this additional construction, due to the need for chambering, is unrealistic, i.e. we essentially arrive at the classic short stroke design laughing, we use the trunk as an additional mass, only not with lowering, but with a turn or a lever. No wonder the P38 is the best pistol IMHO WWII. The resource of his emnip was 10k shots. The same Beretta 92 ... and no one complained about her too much with proper care. Yes, the PM has more ... but in our realities, we do not shoot so much. The entire resource merges with practice, but the fact that a short straight move gives excellent accuracy and at the same time has an unattainable PM energy - I myself have personally observed - I fired from Glock 34 and TAurus 92 (Brazilian copy 92). The results are 1,5 times higher and in the pleasure of the arrow - heaven and earth hi! And the fact that Makarov is oblique - I know not by hearsay (shot about 2k, not much, but conclusions can be drawn).

    ZY And the gas extinguishers in the pistol, well, how many gunsmiths thought, thought and thought drinks ... a Jewess - you need to make oil wassat good "Shyutka ..." (c)
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 23 March 2021 08: 46
      +2
      Makarov is not very precise, it's true. But the problem here is not in the system, but in performance. The Czechs made a cz82 pistol, chambered for the same 9x18 cartridge. Makarov drives in minus, both in accuracy and in ergonomics.
      1. Split
        Split 23 March 2021 18: 14
        +1
        And the declared PM resource of 50 thousand shots is in fact the strength of the articulation of the barrel with the frame in view of the design, the barrel resource is very low (less than 7-8 thousand, emnip, I don’t remember more precisely). In fact, the declared 50 thousand, this is when you have to change the frame. Our system for calculating the resource is somewhat different - you have zips until the bolt or frame is worn out - the pistol retains a resource, and not with us - this is a resource for shooting without replacing the main mechanisms, except for consumables (springs, ejectors, etc.)

        I saw Makarovs, in which almost all the rifling was erased in the trunks, but he was recognized as suitable, i.e. the resource is not exhausted, it can shoot, but the fact that everything was changed for him except the frame and the bolt - no one worried
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 March 2021 09: 29
      0
      Quote: Split
      in general, you need a low-impulse cartridge and play primarily from this

      It is difficult to provide a combination of breakdown and stopping actions with low-impulse ones. It's still critical for a pistol.
      1. Split
        Split 23 March 2021 17: 59
        +1
        Just that low-impulse correspond to the topic touched upon by the author ... the presence of body armor. Have you seen the speed at which state cops drop off their service glock stores? Yes, I do not shoot so much with a dart with a cutoff of 3 not in a stressful situation. If we are talking about either you will not break through the armor, or you will pierce confidently with at least how much damage there is - mine 2e is better. They tried to introduce 40 caliber, etc. - practice has shown that the stopping action depends on the state of the person being shot at and the skill of the shooter, and not on the weapon. In a stressful situation, they shoot not in the arrow, but in the direction. When they shoot at you or even try to start - I was in such a situation ... you need professional training not on the shooting range, but in stressful conditions. It only comes with experience. I think their police officer in shooting skills will make any professional shooter - the conditions are different
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 23 March 2021 18: 11
          +1
          Quote: Split
          availability of body armor

          Does an ordinary police officer often come across criminals in armor?

          Quote: Split
          either you won't break through the armor, or you will pierce confidently with at least how much damage there is - my 2nd is better

          It depends on what kind of armor: nobody canceled the action beyond the barrier. Taking a 40-gauge bullet into a soft Kevlar vest will be very unpleasant and potentially fatal (even if not penetrated).
          1. Split
            Split 23 March 2021 18: 32
            +1
            In the coming year, I want to afford concealed wearing for myself, although now I don't even have an injury. They are quite accessible, and if someone from the shadows is planning something seriously, I think there is more than a class 2 armored vehicle from 99% of our entire police ... I just often notice for some reason who has what weapon, not because I want to rob winked )

            Regarding the penetrating, simple titanium sheet of 1mm (which costs a penny, although titanium, believe me, is very difficult to process, often cracks), which is not shoved due to the mass production of such lightweight ones.
            If you get confused for yourself, in artisanal conditions you can fit it for yourself even with joints ... it weighs nothing, but it will hamper mobility, of course, but distributes the impact over the area.
            Although the main task of aramid fabrics up to our level 3 is just to stop the bullet, in 3+, on the contrary, it is to stop the fragments of the bullet from the main plate. By the way, in the centurion, or how he was essentially switched to plate armor IMHO
          2. Split
            Split 23 March 2021 18: 41
            +1
            The problem with aramid fabrics is that with a large diameter of the impact object, they take the impact and dissipate energy, and if the diameter is small, they simply pierce it, pushing the fibers of the fabric apart. This is the essence of low-impulse cartridges, there have been cases and a lot of armor piercing with a knife, even 2 levels, which they hold, in theory, and vols.

            Well, as a topic, neighing from the past ... I wore a cuirass 3 btm (I don't remember exactly the name, I can be mistaken), it weighs horror and I want to take a sword in it and go to the enemy with a mosink or SVD and hack to death! He holds them almost point-blank and you feel like a knight of the 15th century in almost full armor. laughing good drinks

            Somewhere even on YouTube there is a test where a plate from this armor withstood 20 hits, including from a B-32. At the same time, the author of the video, with all the arsenal provided to him, gets confused with the types of bullets, calling them this or that lol
          3. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 23 March 2021 20: 29
            +3
            In the US, you can run into anyone. When I arrived in the USA, the poorer bandits pasted over heavy leather coats from the inside with several layers of industrial duct tape, the 9mm expansive bullet sometimes stopped. And the police and most citizens use just such for self-defense. Bullet-proof vests are easier to acquire than weapons. so it's easy to run into a bandit in a bulletproof vest. By the way, none of those who arrived at 5.7x28 said that they "felt almost nothing" :-). The stopping action of the bullet does not always work. When people are on drugs, it is possible to hit him with buckshot - not the fact that it will stop. On the web, there is a video on the youtube, a man with a knife climbed onto the policeman. Received 5 hits with a 9mm expansive bullet - IN THEORY 5 expansive bullets in a carcass = death on the spot from pain shock. However, the policeman received 3 stabs. EMNIP survived neither a policeman nor a maniac (by the way, white). In the overwhelming majority of cases, even hitting a criminal by a relatively weak 22LR leads to the cessation of aggression. Here's a link to the table by the way, this is a study done by the Ogaio State Police Department.

            https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

            So that's it. Small cartridge 22LR, stopped the attack with one hit to the carcass 31%, the average number of hits for the attacker to stop is 1.38, the percentage of killed 34%
            percentage not stopped from one hit 31. The percentage of incapacitated from one hit to the body 60.
            Compare this to the .45 ACP cartridge, which IDEA has a tremendous stopping power. The percentage of stopped (Stopped) from one hit -39, the percentage of killed 29 (22LR is more lethal - greater penetration - damage to internal organs), the percentage of not stopped from one hit 14. Number of hits on average) so that the attacker stops 2.08 (22LR stops with 1.38 hits ). Percentage knocked out from one hit to the body 51. Percentage NOT stopped from one hit 14. Interesting, right?

            So - the stopping effect of a bullet / cartridge is far from being a direct dependence on the diameter of the bullet and its speed. 22LR, turned out to be a rather serious argument in self-defense, and this is exactly what no one expected. But the revolving 38 Special, in theory less powerful than the 9mm Luger, turned out to be a more serious argument than the latter.
            1. Kalmar
              Kalmar 24 March 2021 09: 26
              0
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              The stopping action of the bullet does not always work. When people are on drugs, it is possible to hit him with buckshot - not the fact that it will stop.

              It goes without saying, 100% effectiveness only has a warning in the head. I read that American police officers are taught to shoot until the patient stops showing signs of activity. Whether it's true or not, I can't say.

              Quote: Baron Pardus
              https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

              Thanks for the link, interesting. True, there are some nuances in terms of assessing the results presented.

              Let's say, "one-shot-stop": in many cases, the "stopping" factor is the very fact that the victim of the attack has a weapon. Not every criminal is psychologically ready to go under the bullets for the sake of someone else's wallet, even if we are talking about 22LR. Moreover, not everyone will immediately understand what exactly they are shooting at))

              Then, the author writes that he took into account only hits to the head and torso (if he understood correctly). This is also a nuance: at "self-defense" ranges (within a few meters), even the notorious 22LR leaves little chance, having flown into the head.

              From the article, I also did not quite understand what meaning the author puts into the term "incapacitated". Here, it seems, we are not talking about "cutting down" (loss of consciousness, etc.), but rather about neutralization, when the criminal is no longer physically and psychologically ready to continue the attack. And this is again a nuance: even a small bullet hits very, very painfully. If the recipient is not pumped up with substances and does not have a high pain threshold, it may well fall from a relatively minor injury.

              In general, I took two thoughts from the article for myself:
              1. It is really very difficult to objectively assess the stopping effect, because there are plenty of subtle moments.
              2. Even a little thing like 22LR in self-defense will be much better than nothing at all))
  • Konnick
    Konnick 23 March 2021 03: 53
    0
    Quote: Intruder
    The sight is not up to 200 meters, but over 200 meters. Bet on the maximum, on 200 and boldly aim at the body for three hundred and further. Maximum range (another laughing concept) allows.
    In a body made of PP (even in a growth target), without optics and at 300 m!?, Monsieur knows a lot about perversion !!! laughing wink

    The decrease in accuracy at long ranges is compensated by the rate of fire of the PPSh. And the old PPSh can compete in high-speed destruction of targets at distances of 300 meters with super-duper assault rifles with a collimator sight. While they are aiming with an assault rifle, they simply shoot a bunch of bullets from the PPSh in the direction of the target. Aiming at ranges over 300, when the angular size of the target is comparable to the size of the front sight, then leave the sniper to shoot a single person at such a distance. And the sight on the PPSh was changed to a flip one because of the simplification and difficulty of achieving the required accuracy of manufacturing a sector sight and targeting at such a distance. With modern technologies and the quality of cartridges, the old PPSh could show himself, since the main battle distance in a city or forest area is the very thing for this "meat grinder".
    1. Avior
      Avior 24 March 2021 09: 36
      -1
      And the sight on the PPSh was changed to a flip one because of the simplification and difficulty of achieving the required accuracy of manufacturing a sector sight and targeting at such a distance.

      And on the Mosin rifle, too, was changed to a cross-over?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 24 March 2021 10: 16
        +1
        Mosinka was made only at the Tula and Izhevsk plants with the appropriate quality, in contrast to many factories for the production of PCA.
        1. Avior
          Avior 24 March 2021 10: 43
          -1
          No one bothered to make separate sights, and the PPSh was not done under the fence.
          There were other solutions - a three-position sight, a sight at 150-300 m.
          But to artificially lower the firing range by one and a half times, such a betrayal draws on close communication with Lavrenty Pavlovich's subordinates.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 23 March 2021 08: 49
    0
    There will be a small resource of a square spring. Manufacturing the pneumatic part will require precision precision. High sensitivity to dirt. Some kind of non-Russian weapon.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 March 2021 09: 23
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      High sensitivity to dirt. Some kind of non-Russian weapon.

      The military does not really need a pistol, but it’s time for other law enforcement agencies to learn how to keep track of their weapons))
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 23 March 2021 11: 59
        0
        Well, I’m saying) They will drag them to the gunsmith, as usual, and whine, whine ...
  • Kalmar
    Kalmar 23 March 2021 09: 22
    0
    The concept is interesting. But the pneumatic buffer is very confusing in terms of resistance to pollution, because everything works in grinding. However, for sporting or police weapons, this may not be critical.
  • vl903
    vl903 23 March 2021 10: 05
    0
    initially the train of thought is not correct. there have been solutions for a long time. you need increased accuracy - suspend the barrel not on one but on two earrings, or make it rotate like on rsh18. and a trigger with a pre-cocking like a glock or a trigger like a chzet.
    1. vl903
      vl903 23 March 2021 10: 06
      0
      although for a non-sports pistol this is a whim
      1. vl903
        vl903 23 March 2021 11: 13
        0
        although I see in the comments above, they have already chewed everything up and explained to me)))
  • dgonni
    dgonni 23 March 2021 11: 55
    0
    Well? Theoretically a bomb. But it won't work!
    In terms of accuracy, the French MAS with a rotating barrel is ideal.
    But the reliability let us down.
    Heckler with a semi-free shutter will push this device into both bootlegs.
    This is an attempt to make money on old solutions. Moreover, it is not very correct in terms of layout.
    This in general!
  • Split
    Split 23 March 2021 19: 02
    +1
    By the way, it is strange that the shutter braking mechanism was bypassed by the powder gases themselves! The ingenious HK P-13, with a gas cylinder, is rumored to be a reliable machine. Remember Die Hard 1 - Hans Gruber has it in his hands. With proper care, namely cleaning the gas piston or using expensive cartridges with high-quality gunpowder, it should certainly not wedge in a battle of 50-100 heights.
    YES the design is monstrous, very picky should be to maintenance (the piston clogs up quickly). But for the battle and subsequent maintenance, in theory, he makes all the other structures on his head, although the scheme is not new IMHO
    ZY Well, very handsome, this is perhaps the only pistol, which, not only to shoot, to hold repeat
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 23 March 2021 19: 06
    +4
    As for the Sector sights, PPSh, M1 and everything else.

    Sector scope is NOT an indicator. Makarov under the name Baikal was imported to the United States, with a sectorial scope. I hope you won't speak. On the Luger, the Artillery model, there was also a Sector Sight, and even an 800m ramp. To get 700 meters into something from the Luger is possible only with the help of Odin. The sector sight on the Mauser is more "optimistic", since the 7.62x25 cartridge has a more flat trajectory. But all the same, before firing a Mauser, even with a butt holstered at a distance of 800m, you need to draw runes for a long time and make sacrifices to Odin. Otherwise, you will not get there. It was actually a publicity stunt.

    As for the 7.62x25 cartridge and weapons for it. a) None of those who got hit by this patron shouted that it was "just a flesh wound".
    b) Penetration matters. People don't fight in the shooting range. They hide behind whatever they can, behind trees, behind bushes, behind any cover. 7.62x25 simply and trite punches more than 9x19, and even more so .45 3-inch board from 9x19 is likely to save, but from 7.62x25 most likely no longer. By the way, from 35 feet 7.62x25 sometimes even breaks through class IIIA body armor. Is it possible to shoot from a PPSh at 500 meters? Can. It will be difficult to get in. But at 200-250 meters, as far as I read, you can confidently shoot and hit the enemy.
    Ballistic tables of 9x19 versus 7.62x25 are often cited. But, as always, there are several points. The tables are ... pistol. In the pistol barrel, the 7.62x25 cartridge simply does not have time to burn all the powder (therefore, the flash when firing from TTshki and Cz52). In the longer barrel, the powder burns out completely. However, this is a situation not only with TT. When the Kel Tek Company made its pistol chambered for 22ВМР, they said that "The power of 22 WМR is comparable to the power of 5.7x28". Yes, comparable, FROM a RIFLE with a barrel of at least 16 inches. But not in the pistol. The reason is the same - gunpowder. Slow burning at 22 WMR, it simply fails to burn completely in the pistol barrel. Although getting 40 gray 22 WMR in the chest, I think, is also very unpleasant, even from a pistol.
    In Iraq, many of our guys, and I too, had the opportunity to hold and shoot with PPSh and other weapons. Let's just say that PPSh made a good impression on me. Yes, this is not an M4 or an AKM, but the walls in the houses of the bouncers (and the Beretta is not). The accuracy was mediocre, but again these were broken, broken, worn out Cars, in the one that our platoon got, the rifling was practically worn out, especially at the muzzle, and the inside of the barrel was in an extremely mediocre condition. Moreover, the upper and lower parts of the receiver were not rigidly fixed and backlash. It is clear that the device in this state will have zero accuracy.


    About the M1 carbine. This is NOT an ASSAULT RIFLE, it has never been and has never been blown away as such .. I have read more than once or twice in Runet how the M1 is compared with the STG44, and they say, "Oh, these Americans are stupid, they made such a left cartridge." The M1 was conceived as a weapon for the second line soldiers. Our Army has tested and found that it is much easier to train a soldier to fire a rifle than a pistol. Which is not surprising. Thompson is too expensive to manufacture, moreover, it does not have a serious effective range of fire, and he is also heavy. Therefore, it was decided that it would be better for radio operators, artillerymen, cooks, and chauffeurs to issue not M1911, but something more powerful, but light, and not cut off Garand or Springfield, but something more convenient and at the same time effective. (Much wiser than giving second line soldiers a cut-off magazine rifle). So that if something happens they could fight back, no more. The task was to make the cartridge more powerful than the .45 but less powerful than the 30-06. We took the old .32 Winchester hunting cartridge, redesigned it, reinforced it and got the .30 Carbine cartridge. The blunt bullet was part of those specifications. The M1 Carbine was not the equivalent of the STG. This is, in fact, the equivalent of P90. The first production copy of PDW. The idea was that if the enemy infantry breaks through to the battery, then the gunners will be able to stand up for themselves, and at the same time the weapons will not be heavy and cumbersome to interfere with their immediate duties when the enemy is not around. Gradually, the Carbine appeared among paratroopers, gliders and marines. Moreover, back in 1943, some gunsmith sergeant figured out how to convert the M1 carbine into an automatic weapon. And this was done often. In the battles in the jungle in the Pacific, it paid off. In battles in Europe and Italy, it gave the soldiers a little more self-confidence. But the M1 was never conceived as the primary weapon of the infantry. Moreover, many soldiers, having received the M1, tried to exchange it for the Garand. Even the gunners. And the tankers rode first with the Thompsons, and then with the M3. Moreover, the M3 remained in the army and the National Guard among tankers right up to the 70s, and the M1 carbine can now be seen either in private hands or in some police stations in small quiet towns.

    I have an M1 Carbine at home, made in the 60s. Very, very soft machine in shooting. Tula ate 300 rounds in a row and didn't choke :-). Recoil is about the same as a 9mm carbine. By the way, it is the M1 Carbine that is my "home defense weapon". More powerful than a 9mm carbine, much easier to handle than any pistol, and will not make holes in the walls when flying to neighbors like AK, SKS or even AP15. I'm generally more used to rifles. In the USA, there is even a joke "you need your pistol so you have something to use while you are getting your rifle" - you need a pistol just so that you have at least something while you get to your rifle.
    1. agond
      agond 23 March 2021 20: 02
      0
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Baron pardus

      You write in a very informative and interesting way, you can learn a lot of new things in one place at once, but what is your opinion on the pistol, gunsmith Andreas Schwarzlose with an automatics based on the movement of the barrel in front, there were quite a lot of such pistols sold in your time
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 24 March 2021 03: 30
        +1
        To be honest, I never even held such in my hands. The oldest pistol that I have is either one of my TTshek or Cz52 (I'm sure that everyone here already buzzed with their love for the Ceska Zbrojovka company). Of the older pistols, the Luger was HANDLING. Nothing more convenient has yet been created. But the prices for lugers and their clones are prohibitive, for these grandmas you can safely buy a couple of pistols. In one pawnshop I came across a Steir 1912, converted for a 9x19 luger. Nice machine, but they didn't let me shoot. The price was 600 bucks, it was possible to buy, but then I did not have 600 bucks in cash, and a month later this barrel was already bought by someone. Here I just remembered using the Schwarzlose system, EMNIP (a sliding back bolt locked by a larva moving up and down) was made by Arsenal Strike 1, known in Russia as Strizh. By the way, can you tell me why they didn't take it into service? Those few pistols that have sold in the USA - they have very good reviews.
        1. Operator
          24 March 2021 14: 59
          -3
          Luger / Parabellum is the most inconvenient pistol for intuitive shooting: it has a too large angle of the handle. It is designed for target shooting

          PM / Walther PP is the most comfortable pistol for intuitive shooting: it has a small angle of inclination of the handle.

          The Glock is a versatile pistol for both intuitive and targeted shooting.

          PS Target shooting - for sportsmen and amateurs. Army and police special forces shoot intuitively from the hip / chest without bringing the pistol forward to the sighting line on the principle that whoever fired first is alive.
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 March 2021 18: 15
            +1
            Oh my god, what nonsense. Nobody shoots "from the hip" here, only in action films and in "cowboy competition shooting". Nobody will let the policemen engage in shooting from the hip, or shooting in the style of "quickdraw", since the policeman is ALSO responsible for EVERY BULLET that he released. What a nightmare that our police officers are deprived of your knowledge, especially your hip shooting skills and its theoretical basis. You need to be a comedian with your theories of the angle of the arm, and speak in front of our police. True, they will start colic from laughing. Intuitive shooting is not "from the hip" from the word at all. The "grip angle effect" theory has long been disproved, as is your "super precision fixed shutter" theory. Therefore, here almost all pistols are sold with the ability to change the "grip angle" using pads. Moreover, in most police departments and sheriffs, police officers are not given personal weapons, but given money - buy what you want, but you want to go with what we give you. It's just that several requirements are set for weapons: 9mm or 40, the barrel length is at least 4 inches, the capacity is at least 15 cartridges, etc., etc. Therefore, the police go with Glocks and HDM, and with M&P, and with Rugers, and with Cesettes, and with Berettas and Taurus. Naturally, few police officers spend their hard-earned money on Sig Sauer or Heckler Koch there. When I arrived in the United States in 1991, some police officers were still walking around with revolvers. Especially in quiet areas. And if shooting "from the hip" is so important for the military and police, then explain to me why the Army never chose the Glock, but chose first the M9, and then the Sig Sauer, but the Glock is popular in the police (really very popular), and now explain Why did they decide to start competing with the Glock, and Springfield with its Springfield HD, and Smith and Vessno, opted for designs with a smaller handle angle than the Glock. If this is for the sake of "shooting from the hip", if you please explain why in all competitions they use both glocks and pistols with a lower inclination of the handle, because ISPC and others like it, this is target shooting and even at speed. You understand pistols and pistol shooting, sorry, like a pig in ballet, Sir. Don't confuse Olympic target shooting with ISPC. Don't confuse high-speed intuitive shooting with western hip shooting. Let me tell you a secret. IN THEORY, a large "grip angle" should be helpful when shooting with one hand. "Should" and "in theory" the results of practice are completely opposite. It is very convenient to shoot with one hand, for example, from 1911. And there the Grip angle is 11 degrees. On the Glock, by the way 22. As our Army trials showed, the Glock lost over and over to models with a low tilt angle, and everything is used in competitions. From Glocks and high Grip Angle pistols to 1911 chambered in 9mm. The Glock is very convenient, but I am better at shooting with, for example, M&P and Chz74, although I usually shoot with one hand and IDEA Glock should show better results. It all depends on the individual anatomy.
            The angle of the handle is only one factor. Believe it or not, most companies understand that people will not buy one handgun for self-defense and home defense and another pistol for accuracy training. People buy one or two pistols - one for discreet carry and the other for everything else. And you will not train for home defense on Glock, but ride an ISPC with a Zatyuninin Chz or a Zatuning Kanik. What you train best with and shoot, especially pistols. By the way, direct competitors of Glock - M&P and HD / HDM have a lower Grip angle than Glock, but that is not what decides the demand for these pistols. Research results show that there are arrows that are easier to shoot from the Glock, on the same ISPC, there are arrows that are easier from, HDM or someone else. Individual anatomy of the hand and hand is what determines the success of PRACTICAL shooting with any pistol and how "comfortable" it is. More than once or twice I have seen and heard people say, "I bought a Glock at first, but I'm better at it from a Beretta" or vice versa "At first I bought a Beretta, but I'm better at shooting with a Glock." So it's not the Grip Angle that matters, but the custom fit. I repeat now that a lot of pistols are sold with Grip angle change kits, a change in the back of the grip. And other pistols have overlays. The pistol is fitted under the arm. There is no universal angle even for police weapons. There are still professionals - policemen and sheriffs, who assure that there can be nothing better than M1911. I understand that I want to be branded as a new Browning or Mauser, and to receive grants for development, revision, revision development, revision of development, etc. But please, stop studying theory and just read, or talk to police officers in the United States, you will learn a lot of new and real. The theory of "ideal grip angle" is from the same series as the theory of "high precision fixed barrel". These are THEORIES that are NOT confirmed by practice.
            I repeat once again ISPC requires both speed and accuracy, and there you can see everything, from Glocks to M1911, and there is no "ideal" weapon for ISPC. Otherwise, everyone would have used it.
            1. Operator
              24 March 2021 18: 36
              -1
              ISPC is a pure sport with inherent perversions in the form of special holsters, weapon belts, grips with an extended magazine entrance, ultra-high sights, mincing gait, etc. In fact, the pistols used there are sports equipment, not weapons.

              The level of shooting training of American police officers in terms of the practical use of short-barreled weapons is very low - in almost all videos, with unexpected fire contact at a short distance (10-15 meters), they try to make the first sighting shot with raising the pistol to eye level (as they were taught in conditions shooting range), after which the police naturally become victims of armed criminals.

              Follow the example of FSB agents and SWAT fighters, trained to intuitively fire the first shots, and live a long life in the country of the victorious BLM laughing
              1. Baron pardus
                Baron pardus 24 March 2021 19: 29
                +3
                SWAT fighters run around with M4s, Pistols, machine guns, snipers and shotguns, and for them the pistol is a secondary weapon. SWAT doesn't run after pickpockets and small drug dealers. SWAT does not catch drunk drivers, and SWAT does not disperse drunken brawls in the bar. If the police call SWAT it is very, very serious. No need to overclock SWAT demo. It is used when the police know for sure: a) Where is the criminal b) Who is the criminal. c) That the criminals just like that, they will not take on their own. And SWAT arrives when the police clearly know that they can't do it on their own. For example, when another amer rips the roof off and he arranges a game in a shooting gallery. Although at first the police are trying to take such fans of DOOM live, themselves, for example, recently in Colorado. If they run into something that turns out to be too tough for them (a well-armed man who actively resists), then the police cordon off the place and call SWAT. So he arrives - fully armed, with snipers, people with MP5, M4 and shotguns. The SWAT pistol is a secondary weapon. Lord, well, at least do a little self-education. You have absolutely no idea what you were talking about. You have read textbooks on theoretical mechanics and physics, and with a clever look make conclusions about what you have no idea about. Either about the design of pistols and their practical application, then about SWAT tactics. Read, talk to police officers from the United States, they will tell you a lot, as a rule, everything except "professional secrets". And the police in the USA do not make the "first shot" while aiming, but on the contrary, they use intuitive shooting (not from the hip), and "Weaver Stance". Watch the tutorial videos, they are in the public domain. And best of all, shoot yourself from different things, different price levels. And on the ISPC, fancy holsters and belts are not required at all. And this is the sport of PRACTICAL SHOOTING, for speed and accuracy. By the way, if you don't know, then I tell you, there is no standard issue holsters in the US police, yes, they give out the simplest equipment, but if you want to buy yourself something fancy, go ahead, if only it meets the requirements of this police department. There are pistol holsters here: for the police, for concealed carry, but for anything - this is a huge business. I understand that paper will endure everything, but stop with a clever look to write absolute crap and indulge in fantasies and theories that have long been refuted in the United States, where, believe me, pistols are much more common than in Russia, and are used for completely different purposes. I repeat, there is no universal angle, otherwise pistols with this angle would have replaced others, but this did not happen. As well as there is no "magic precision of a fixed barrel" otherwise something would have been put into mass production a long time ago. Various gags and recoil absorbers have been known for a long time. However, do not be upset, having arrived in the USA I "invented" a pistol with counterbalance, I was very proud of myself, I was already 17 years old. The idea I had was that when the massive bolt of the pistol flies backward during a shot, its part moves as a counterweight, forward, and is set in motion by the removal of powder gases, the barrel itself is in a cylindrical casing, and when the bolt flies backward, hugging the barrel of the counterweight inside the casing flies forward, and then a special return spring returns (pun intended) the counterweight to its place. The development was for a pistol in a cartridge of 30 Carbin. I even went to the local gunsmiths with sketches of drawings, they praised me, they said that the patent for such garbage was made a long time ago, and no one started production since reliability is going to hell.
                Do not misunderstand me, perhaps you will definitely be able to tell me the number of man-hours required for the production of a barrel, frame, bolt and other parts. But you, excuse me, have neither access nor personal possession of a serious amount of weapons. I would bet that you didn’t shoot from the Kanik TP9XFS to compare it with the Glock 34. That you didn’t shoot from the Taurus PT92, to compare it with the M9. And you didn't compare the PH4 with the K100. Moreover, I am sure that you did not take classes on the use of a pistol in combat, either in the army or on the same courses for the police / civilians (not special forces, I say right away, such courses are VERY expensive). I'm far from an expert. I never used a pistol in battle. In a self-defense situation, too. I train regularly, go to different courses sometimes. A couple of times I went to the local ISPC competitions where I performed mediocre. which is not surprising since I spend most of my time at shooting ranges with rifles. But I regularly read what our police officers write, who have more experience, believe me, than yours. what are your words that the police "naturally become victims of criminals" to carry such nonsense, what kind of arrogance and hypertrophied conceit you need to have ... I envy. Policemen die, as a rule, because of their mistakes or because of a surprise attack .. Not bad training, but their mistakes. Relaxed for a second, distracted. Didn't know what the criminal was armed with, decided to take a risk to save people (like a Police Officer in Colorado, or corny shot from behind, how they killed a black police girl in New York, just came up to the back of the car where she was sitting and shot. and not some mythical “white neo-Nazis.” So write to our police officers, they will be happy to share with you. Visit our forums, there are a lot of knowledgeable people, both police officers, and teachers of tactical and defensive shooting. Then you can make smart theories without getting your finger in the sky and not looking like a complete ignoramus.You can hang your noodles in Russia, where people have no pistols in their hands, and the police are not very trained in the use of service. they will simply laugh at you with your theories, at first they will try to explain everything, then they will laugh at you.
                1. Operator
                  24 March 2021 19: 36
                  -4
                  You, like the vast majority of Americans, draw your knowledge from Hollywood films and articles by weapons "experts" - in reality, when repelling an unexpected attack at a short distance, FBI and SWAT use a pistol, not an M4 carbine. But you will never be told about this by instructors in the shooting range who can only teach shooting sports.

                  About FBI agents with M4 carbines you turned it cool laughing
                  1. Baron pardus
                    Baron pardus 25 March 2021 19: 15
                    +1
                    You, sir, not only are ignorant, with a clever look and aplomb carrying utter nonsense, you are also a liar. I didn't even mention the FBI. And for SWAT the pistol is a SECONDARY weapon.
                    1. Operator
                      25 March 2021 20: 35
                      -2
                      But I mentioned it twice, and you ignored it and started hounding Hollywood stories about SWAT. Do not forget to send your photo with M4 in automatic execution with specification - with or without the right to wear laughing

                      You there in the USA have completely lost touch with reality: we now have almost any short-barreled weapon legally available for gaining personal experience (in the form of lease in a shooting gallery, of course), as well as various methods of shooting training. Therefore, it's not a fig here to brag about your scanty arsenal of short-barrels and the level of training in shooting business at the level of housewives.
                      1. Baron pardus
                        Baron pardus 25 March 2021 22: 59
                        +1
                        You are Hamlo and an ignoramus, and in general canals and radishes. Stop lying, although of course, a charlatan and an ignoramus have nothing left but lies, how you lied that I said about the FBI, you are also lying about what I said that I have an automatic M4. Talking to a liar and a charlatan is like playing chess with a pigeon, he will knock over the pieces, shit on the board and proudly fly away to tell the same stupid pigeons as he won at chess. Continue to charlatan further, unfortunately for Russia, charlatans no longer do what they deserve. The Learned to Forgive system has the same results. Go for it.
                      2. Operator
                        25 March 2021 23: 37
                        -3
                        All the best in USA - and Biden Vegetable with BLM to help bully
                      3. Baron pardus
                        Baron pardus 26 March 2021 21: 42
                        +1
                        Yes, you are absolutely right, we have huge social problems in the United States. But let me remind you the proverb "While the fat one loses weight, the thin flippers will stick together", at the moment the United States is on its feet stronger than Russia. Although it is not known what will happen in 10 years. If the Republicans come to power, then the big white fox will not come so quickly. My task now is to decide which language to learn. Chinese or Arabic or Spanish. And oligarchs, bandits, youth AUE and "small but very independent and proud Caucasian peoples" will help you :-)
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 24 March 2021 17: 50
    0
    An interesting idea, it would be very interesting to see in metal and read about the tests ...
  • Mikhail Sterzer
    Mikhail Sterzer April 1 2021 01: 18
    0
    Such pistols (meaning the design nuances) were already mass-produced by Izhmeh in 1978. Probably forgotten. As for the export models, which sold out like hotcakes, they also forgot. Although they themselves took them out of production since 1979 (as part of a sabotage), everything is new - well forgotten old!
  • Pavel Ryabov
    Pavel Ryabov April 17 2021 05: 26
    0
    In 1775, the Paris Academy of Sciences decided not to consider projects of a perpetual motion machine due to the obvious impossibility of their creation. But can this really stop the brave minds challenging the dull and inert physics of the world around them?
  • knyazevpit
    knyazevpit April 29 2021 23: 10
    0
    Quote: hrych
    The Red Army chose Mauser and almost under its standard and released TT, PPSh and PPS. And they completely surpassed the counterparts of the enemy in terms of combat qualities. The aiming range of the MP-40 is 200 meters, while the PPSh has 300 meters. And ours correctly guessed the combat distance of the WWII. hypothetically, our soldier shot a German with impunity, who had to overcome a hundred-meter distance under a hail of bullets from a disk magazine in order to reach the distance of his shooting.

    You probably are not aware that the main weapon of the Wehrmacht squad was the MG machine gun and the K-98 rifle, and the MP-38 \ 40 auxiliary weapon. Squad 10 people, and weapons 1pc. MG + 9pcs. K-98 + 1pc. MP-40. Now the question is: at what distance is the PPSh-41 effective and at what distance is MG? The only plus of the PPSh-41 is a forest battle, a battle in the city and in a tank assault, when the distance for effective firing up to 100 meters of the PPSh-41 can be reduced in a short period of time while riding on armor.
  • Dmitriy Zadorozhniy
    Dmitriy Zadorozhniy 26 May 2021 09: 28
    0
    Again the projectors. French gign. The revolver is in use. And very, very successful.
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel 1 June 2021 07: 29
    0
    Quote: Avior
    The Schmeiser brothers' system with a free breech was used by almost all pistols - machine guns of the Second World War.

    Or the Revelli system? :)