Military Review

Why Russia in 1921 gave part of its lands to Poland

219
Why Russia in 1921 gave part of its lands to Poland

March marks one hundred years since the peace treaty between the RSFSR and Poland was concluded, which put an end to the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1921. By analogy with the "obscene" Peace of Brest, the Peace of Riga can be called "shameful", since, according to the terms of the peace, the Soviet side ceded to Poland a significant part of the West Ukrainian and West Belarusian lands that were previously part of the Russian Empire, and had to pay the former vassal significant reparations.


Failures of the Bolsheviks at the front


Naturally, the question arises - why did the Soviet government, after impressive victories in the Civil War and over the interventionists, so gave up before Poland, its protectorate of the empire, annexed in the 18th century by Catherine II?

As a result of the defeat of Germany in November 1918, the independence of Poland was proclaimed, led by Pilsudski, who announced the restoration of the Commonwealth within the borders of 1772 and began to take steps to implement this plan, taking advantage of the weakening of Germany and Russia. The question immediately arose about the recognized borders of Poland, which led to the Soviet-Polish war.

British Foreign Minister Lord George Curzon suggested that the parties withdraw their troops along the Grodno - Brest - Przemysl ("Curzon Line") line and establish a border there, roughly corresponding to the borders of ethnic Poles. The outbreak of the war went on with varying success, and, after the defeat of the Soviet troops of Marshal Tukhachevsky in August 1920 near Warsaw, the Poles went on the offensive in August and by October captured Minsk, Bialystok, Baranovichi, Lutsk, Rovno and Tarnopol, forcing the Soviet government to begin peace negotiations (RSFSR together with Ukraine and Poland on the other side). They began in Minsk on 17 August 1920 and continued in September in Riga against the backdrop of the Polish offensive in Volhynia and Belarus. As a result of negotiations, an armistice agreement was signed on October 12, and hostilities at the front ceased.

During the negotiations, the Poles carefully formulated their territorial claims. On the one hand, they proceeded from the possibility of maximizing the return of their lands inhabited by ethnic Poles, on the other hand, they were rather cautious about the annexation of lands with a predominance of the non-Polish population, moreover, they had to take into account the position of the Entente, which sought to limit the too serious strengthening and revival Poland.

At the beginning of the negotiations, when the Poles were advancing, the Bolsheviks offered them to recognize the independence of Belarus and hold a referendum in Galicia, the Poles rejected it. Then the head of the Soviet delegation Ioffe proposed to give the Poles all of Belarus in exchange for weakening the Polish demands on Ukraine, the Poles did not agree with this, that is, Belarus acted as a subject of bargaining between the parties in the negotiation process.

In September, the Polish delegation announced that it was ready to agree to the creation of "buffer" states, including Belarus, on its eastern borders, or to draw the border considerably east of the "Curzon Line". The Bolsheviks accepted the second option, and the parties agreed not to consider the "Curzon Line" as a future border between states.

The Polish delegation was surprised by the pliability of the Soviet side, and they could put forward even greater territorial claims, and the Bolsheviks, most likely, would satisfy them. But the Poles, contrary to the position of their radicals led by Pilsudski, who demanded the maximum increase in territory, understood the danger of such an acquisition. They understood that these lands were inhabited ethnically, culturally and religiously by a different population, for example, in Volyn, Poles accounted for less than 10% of the population, and the inclusion of these territories in Poland could lead to far-reaching consequences and problems. In addition, the prevailing opinion in Poland was that the Bolsheviks would not last long, and the returned supporters of the "one and indivisible" would demand the return of the seized territories, and this could lead to territorial conflicts.

The problems of the Bolsheviks


The Bolsheviks sought to conclude an agreement as soon as possible and were ready to make any territorial concessions, since they urgently needed to solve the aggravated problems of building the Soviet state and complete the defeat of the White Guard armies.

Wrangel's army was still in the Crimea and threatened to enter the vast Tauride steppes, it was finished only in mid-November 1920. Wrangel decided to enter into an alliance with Pilsudski, who has the most powerful army in Eastern Europe, opened his office in Warsaw and began to form the 3rd Russian Army under the leadership of Boris Savinkov with the aim of creating a "Slavic front" against the Bolsheviks. In this regard, Lenin later made an important statement that

"... lately we have decided to make some concessions not because we considered it fair, but because we considered it important to disrupt the intrigues of the Russian White Guards, Socialist-Revolutionaries and Mensheviks in Warsaw, the Entente imperialists, most of all striving to prevent peace."

The Bolsheviks had a lot of problems with the peasantry because of the policy of war communism and requisitions in the form of surplus appropriation. Throughout the country there were mass peasant uprisings of the "green", workers were on strike in the cities due to lack of food and poor provision, unrest in the army was brewing, which resulted in the Kronstadt mutiny in March 1921. Due to the policy of war communism and crop failure in 1920, famine was brewing, and the Bolsheviks had to by any means save most of the territory of Ukraine with its fertile lands; the loss of Ukraine could turn out to be a disaster for the Bolsheviks.

The Bolsheviks needed a respite to solve the accumulated burning problems, their power could fall at any moment. In this regard, Lenin instructed Ioffe about the need to conclude peace by means of serious territorial concessions, peace was vital for the Bolsheviks.

Peace was also wanted in Poland: under pressure from the Entente countries, the deputies of the Polish Sejm called on the Polish government to sign a peace treaty as soon as possible, and the “chief” of the Polish state, Pilsudski, supported it, stressing that the lands that had gone to the Bolsheviks could be returned in the future.

The most serious disagreements arose over the article of the treaty on the refusal to support forces hostile to each other. The Bolsheviks demanded that their most notorious opponents, such as Savinkov and Petliura, be expelled from Poland, and Poland put forward a condition for the release of all Polish prisoners and the transfer of gold to her as indemnities. In the peace treaty, these requirements were taken into account, and in October 1921, the RSFSR transferred the first part of the gold provided for in the treaty, and the Poles expelled persons objectionable to the Bolsheviks.

A shameful treaty


Long negotiations after serious and humiliating concessions from the Bolsheviks ended with the signing of the Riga Peace Treaty on March 18, 1921, according to which Grodno and part of the Minsk provinces, as well as Galicia and Western Volyn, were transferred to Poland, and the border ran much east of the "Curzon Line". Poland was given a territory of about three thousand square kilometers with a population of almost 14 million people, the overwhelming majority of which were Belarusians and Ukrainians.

In addition, Russia was humiliated by rather onerous reparations. Poland demanded the return of all historical and cultural values, payments for contributions to the economy of the Russian Empire 300 million gold rubles and two thousand steam locomotives. Under the agreement, Russia pledged to transfer to Poland all cultural and historical values, as well as war trophies exported from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since 1772, including war trophies, libraries and art collections, archives of authorities and public organizations, documents and maps, scientific laboratories and instruments, up to bells and objects of worship. All Polish capital and deposits in Russian banks were to be returned, while all debt obligations of tsarist times were withdrawn from Poland.

In addition, Russia had to pay Poland 30 million gold rubles within a year and transfer property in the amount of 18 million gold rubles (300 European gauge steam locomotives, 435 passenger cars and 8 freight cars). Russia fulfilled all the requirements imposed on it, the transfer of the main part of cultural property ended in an agreement in November 100.

In accordance with the treaty, Poland was to grant the linguistic and cultural rights of national minorities to the Ukrainian and Belarusian populations on its territory. Despite this, a policy of polonization began on the annexed lands, with the prohibition of the use of the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages ​​in all state institutions, the general closure of the media and persecution of the Orthodox faith.

After the treaty came into force, the Polish government, despite the protests of the Soviet side, was in no hurry to fulfill the terms of the treaty: it did not stop supporting anti-Soviet groups on its territory and sabotaged the return of Red Army prisoners of war, keeping them in appalling conditions. It should be noted that in accordance with paragraph 2 of Article 10 of the agreement, the parties waived claims for

"Misdemeanors against the rules binding on prisoners of war, civilian internees and, in general, citizens of the opposing side."

Thus, the Bolsheviks doomed a significant part of the captured Red Army soldiers to certain death in the Polish camps. According to various estimates, about 130 thousand Red Army soldiers were captured, of whom about 60 thousand died in the camps due to inhuman conditions of detention.

The conclusion of the Riga Treaty marked the end of the Civil War, secured the western border from invasion and gave a respite to start the transition from the policy of war communism to the new economic policy, adopted at the 10th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks on March 16, 1921, just on the eve of the conclusion of the Riga Treaty. This respite came at too high a cost - territorial concessions, large reparations and the death of tens of thousands of captured Red Army soldiers. The correction of the negative consequences of this "shameful" peace was carried out by Stalin in 1939, returning the seized lands and reuniting the Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples.
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  1. Malyuta
    Malyuta 22 March 2021 04: 23
    +16
    The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.
    But in 1939 the former border was completely and even
    more than restored.
    These events are documented by the historian Spitsin.
    And here's a little more about the Polish hyena.
    https://youtu.be/WI9uwKuw7pc
    1. Malyuta
      Malyuta 22 March 2021 04: 36
      +11
      Poles have always hated all neighbors and threw everyone they could
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 04: 44
      0
      Quote: Malyuta
      The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.
      Gave time and then took theirs.

      In accordance with the treaty, Poland was to provide the person located on its territory linguistic and cultural rights of national minorities to the Ukrainian and Belarusian population. Despite this, on the annexed lands began to be carried out polonization policy with the prohibition of the use in all state institutions of the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages, the general closure of the media and persecution of the Orthodox faith.
      Even in this situation, the Bolsheviks thought about the rights of the people! But the Poles, as true Westerners, spat on the treaty!

      After the treaty came into force, the Polish government, despite the protests of the Soviet side, was in no hurry to fulfill the terms of the treaty: it did not stop supporting anti-Soviet groups on its territory and sabotaged the return of Red Army prisoners of war, keeping them in appalling conditions.
      Westerners, one word! No faith can be it, except with force support.


      It should be noted that in accordance with paragraph 2 of Article 10 of the agreement, the parties waived claims for
      "Misdemeanors against the rules binding on prisoners of war, civilian internees and, in general, citizens of the opposing side."
      Thus, the Bolsheviks doomed a significant part of the captured Red Army soldiers to certain death in the Polish camps. According to various estimates, about 130 thousand Red Army soldiers were captured, of whom about 60 thousand died in the camps due to inhuman conditions of detention.
      But this is already the author's twitching! Obviously, no claims were made for events PREVIOUS to the treaty, so the Bolsheviks did not doom their own, another thing is that the Poles did not give a damn about the clauses of the treaty!
      1. BAI
        BAI 22 March 2021 08: 41
        +1
        the Bolsheviks doomed a significant part of the Red Army prisoners to certain death in the Polish camps.


        Note Verbale from the Embassy of the RSFSR in Poland to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Polish Republic
        January 6 1922 years

        The Russian government has repeatedly been forced to draw the attention of the Polish government to the extremely difficult situation of Russian prisoners of war in Poland. Unfortunately, at the moment, almost a year after the signing of the peace treaty, Russian prisoners of war still receive an attitude from the Polish authorities that is an absolutely incredible manifestation of rudeness, mockery and cruelty. On December 29, 1921, the Russian-Ukrainian delegation of the Mixed Repatriation Commission, in its relations for Nos. 4414 and 4415, informed the Polish part of the delegation about the completely unacceptable conditions for the existence of Russian prisoners of war and internees in the Strzhalkovo camp [...] In all their ideas about the abnormal and difficult conditions the existence of Russian prisoners of war in Poland repeatedly had to point out the difficult situation in the Strzhalkovo camp. Moreover, the extremely difficult objective conditions of existence in this camp, due to its extreme poor conditions, are further aggravated by a completely inhuman attitude towards prisoners on the part of the camp administration [...] Beating of prisoners of war is a constant phenomenon, and it is not possible to register all these cases. The Russian-Ukrainian delegation, in a number of ways, cited long lists of beaten prisoners. All these beatings not only remain unpunished, but to date, contrary to the decision of the Mixed Repatriation Commission, the order of August 6, 1921, prohibiting the beating of prisoners, has not been published, and thus the fight against this criminal attitude towards prisoners is inhibited. On any occasion, arrest is applied to prisoners, and its conditions are extremely difficult. Those arrested are forcibly used methods of walking, which are not a relief for them, which should be a walk, but deliberate torture and mockery. The arrested are driven out into the street every day and instead of walking, exhausted people are forced to run on command, ordering them to fall into the mud and rise again. If the prisoners refuse to lie down in the mud, or if one of them, following the order, cannot get up, exhausted by the difficult conditions of their detention, then they are beaten with rifle butts [...] The Russian Embassy expresses its categorical protest against the incredible conditions of detention, against bullying and atrocities used against Russian citizens, and expresses the firm belief that criminal actions by the administration of the Strzhalkovo camp will not remain without the strictest punishment. At the same time, the Russian embassy declares that the Russian government cannot allow such an attitude towards its citizens. The Russian government firmly believes that decisive measures will be taken immediately by the Polish government to ensure that Russian citizens in Polish camps are treated with due respect in accordance with the principles of international law.
      2. Civil
        Civil 22 March 2021 09: 34
        +2
        Chickens are counted in autumn, in the end where are Belarus and Ukraine? Where is the border of the Russian Federation?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 09: 52
          -1
          Quote: Civil
          Chickens are counted in autumn, in the end where are Belarus and Ukraine? Where is the border of the Russian Federation?
          And what is it for? And where is the border of the German or Austrian empires?
          1. Civil
            Civil 22 March 2021 09: 55
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And what is it for? And where is the border of the German or Austrian empires?

            What I mean is that by March 2021, the lands that Stalin later returned were transferred to other states. Poland has moved forward in development. Russia is in decline.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 10: 00
              -1
              Quote: Civil
              What I mean is that by March 2021, the lands that Stalin later returned were transferred to other states. Poland has moved forward in development. Russia is in decline.
              They did not leave but became states, Putin is certainly not Stalin, but you should not forget about Crimea either. I smiled about Poland, yes.
            2. bk0010
              bk0010 22 March 2021 12: 05
              +3
              Quote: Civil
              Poland has moved forward in development. Russia is in decline.
              Seriously? Forward? Transformed from an industrial power (built ships, cars, even computers of its own (I saw Mazovia 1016)) into a "great apple power"?
              1. Civil
                Civil 22 March 2021 12: 14
                +2
                Quote: bk0010
                Seriously? Forward? Transformed from an industrial power (built ships, cars, even computers of its own (I saw Mazovia 1016)) into a "great apple power"?

                There are only 2 indicators of the success of the state - life expectancy and income level. Everything else is noodles for the unlucky residents of 3-4 countries of the world.
                Google the difference. For example, the presence of nuclear weapons in Pakistan does not exclude the country from the category of developing countries in the third world.
                1. bk0010
                  bk0010 22 March 2021 12: 26
                  -1
                  Quote: Civil
                  There are only 2 indicators of the success of the state - life expectancy and income level.
                  Yes? That is, the only criterion for your success is the size of the trough? Oh well...
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 13: 18
                    +6
                    Quote: bk0010
                    the only criterion for your success is the size of the trough? Oh well...

                    Those who at the broken trough, come up with other criteria for success.
            3. Cympak
              Cympak 22 March 2021 14: 23
              +1
              The reason is that the Poles "cleverly" use EU subsidies and are actively attracting investments. Ten years ago, when we had not yet quarreled with "partners", the following example was cited as a difference in the level of investment: the Polish telecommunications company had a capitalization (was worth) more than Lukoil with all its factories and fields.
              And so the fate of the "arrogant pshek" sandwiched between Russia and Germany is to yell angrily at their neighbors, looking back at their geopolitical competitors: before, it was France and Great Britain, and now the United States. Only they did not help the "lyaham" either in 1939 or in 1944.
              Europeans have probably already regretted more than once that they took Poland into the EU
              1. Civil
                Civil 22 March 2021 14: 43
                +4
                The reason is that the Poles

                And what difference does it make to the majority of the population, where does the money for it, the population, come from? You cannot close loans with patriotism, you pay for the education of your children, you can buy food in the store. For treatment, too, patriotism is not taken.
              2. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid 22 March 2021 15: 03
                +1
                ......... they never helped "lyaham" ......

                Here, involuntarily, the words of the father, spoken to the traitor-son, are recalled:
                "What, son, did your Poles help you?"
              3. No name B
                No name B 22 March 2021 19: 38
                +2
                Smiling naive maxims about "poor" Poles with an average salary of 1000 €, Poles have been living at a decent level for 8 years already. Maybe ships are no longer being built, but chemical, paper and mechanical engineering are already highly developed, more than once I have already transported all this to Western Europe, Europeans do not hesitate to invest in Poland, a stable economy, stable prices.
        2. Illanatol
          Illanatol April 30 2021 14: 05
          0
          Who said that autumn has already arrived?
          "February" in the yard. Obviously protracted.
      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 11: 03
        0
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        We gained time.

        to lose the war = gain time?
        Enchantingly
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        and then they took theirs.

        yes, practically taking advantage of the fruits of the Polish-German war in accordance with the agreements adopted. Solving its problems, the Reich dragged chestnuts for the USSR as well.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 11: 36
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          to lose the war = gain time?

          The agreement was signed, it is written in the article and in the commentary, wipe your eyes.

          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Solving its problems, the Reich dragged chestnuts for the USSR.
          What are chestnuts ?! Facilitated the conduct of the war in the future, that's all "chestnuts", think what you write!
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 12: 15
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What are chestnuts ?!

            is it not obvious to you? Or do you think the Liberation Campaign would have been the same walk if the Wehrmacht had not defeated the Polish army? So the Reich saved material and human resources to the USSR.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 14: 38
              +1
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Or do you think the Liberation Campaign would have been the same walk if the Wehrmacht had not defeated the Polish army?

              And where did you get the idea that the hike would take place in principle? The stupidity is obvious, everyone would happily fit in against the USSR for Poland.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 15: 41
                -2
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And where did you get the idea that the hike would take place in principle?

                Of course, it would not have happened if it had not been for the Soviet-German Gesheft. But it took place precisely in view of the fact that the Wehrmacht ruined the Polish army and laid siege to Warsaw, allowing the Soviets to take control of the east to Brest, declaring it ownerless.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                The stupidity is obvious

                Yes, no more than the Winter War.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 17: 05
                  -2
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  But it took place precisely because

                  In view of the Munich agreement, the British policy of appeasing Hitler, the strange war, and finally the Polish plum in the form of the shameful flight of the Polish government.
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 17: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In view of the Munich agreement

                    Stop piling up. In view of the Covenant, Mr.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    and finally the Polish plum in the form of the shameful flight of the Polish government.

                    And so I wrote:
                    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    allowing the Soviets to seize control of the east to Brest, declaring it ownerless.

                    Doesn't the semantics suit you?
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 17: 33
                      0
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Stop piling up.
                      There is nothing to oversimplify and pretend that only the MR Pact was to blame.

                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      finally, the Polish plum in the form of the shameful flight of the Polish government.


                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      And so I wrote:
                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      allowing the Soviets to seize control of the east to Brest, declaring it ownerless.
                      Doesn't the semantics suit you?
                      I'm not happy with ripping out the phrase from your own comment with a corresponding change in meaning:

                      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      that the Wehrmacht ruined the Polish army and laid siege to Warsaw, allowing the Soviets to seize control of the east to Brest, declaring it ownerless.
                      The siege of the capital is not yet a reason for the government to flee leaving the country and the army without control. Namely, the flight of the Polish government gave a completely legitimate pretext for the USSR.
                      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 17: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        There is nothing to oversimplify and pretend that only the MR Pact was to blame.

                        Okay, okay - the Reich and the USSR divided Poland as a result of the Munich Agreement and the MR Pact. Is that okay?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Namely, the flight of the Polish government gave a completely legitimate pretext for the USSR.

                        And I did not touch on legality or illegality, I wrote that the victory of the Reich made it possible for the USSR to practically bloodlessly seize the memory and the ZB in accordance with the agreements adopted with the Germans. In view of the termination of the existence of the state "Poland". What's wrong? The reason why Poland remained ownerless is the Wehrmacht and its Weiss. If you want to weave Munich, Zitzkrieg, Chamberlain's rectal cancer here - yes, your business, go ahead, spread your thoughts.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 17: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Okay, okay - the Reich and the USSR divided Poland as a result of the Munich Agreement and the MR Pact. Is that okay?

                        The middle is half.

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        that the victory of the Reich made it possible for the USSR to practically bloodlessly seize the memory and ZB in accordance with the agreements adopted with the Germans.
                        But this is not a fact at all, a strange war as a consequence of Munich and "appeasement" gave Poland to roll out with impunity, so the Wehrmacht is secondary here, like the pact.

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        go for it, spread out Mysia.
                        If this is not a typo, then I take off my hat. hi
                      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 19: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        so the Wehrmacht is secondary here, like the pact.

                        Whatever you take from you - everything is secondary. And what is primary?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        strange war as a consequence of Munich

                        Well, yes, and Munich is a consequence of Versailles, and Versailles is Compiegne, and so on - past Gavrila Princip to the Vienna Congress. laughing
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 05: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        And what is primary?

                        Certainly not the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact.

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Well, yes, and Munich is a consequence of Versailles
                        No, Munich is a consequence of the desire of England and others to destroy the USSR. Revanchism is only a formal reason, not even the reason for the creation of Nazi Germany.
                      5. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 23 March 2021 09: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Certainly not the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact.

                        What about? Evolution of the thumb in great apes?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        No, Munich is a consequence of England's aspirations

                        Yes, I know - "Hitler was fed ..", "set on the USSR ...", "Russophobes ...", "pacifiers", "they traded with the Nazis throughout the war" and other blizzards in the spirit of "Samsonov".
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Revanchism

                        come on, it is inherent not only in the policy of Germany during the interbellum period.
                      6. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 09: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        What about? Evolution of the thumb in great apes?
                        Are you sucking arguments out of there?

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Yes, I know - "Hitler was fed ..", "set on the USSR ...", "Russophobes ...", "pacifiers", "they traded with the Nazis throughout the war" and other blizzards in the spirit
                        Those. real facts of real history for you a blizzard, clearly understandable.

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Revanchism


                        come on, it is inherent not only in the policy of Germany during the interbellum period.
                        Something you frankly degrade, clung to a single word, even Ol'govich is rare.
                      7. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 23 March 2021 09: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Those. real facts of real history for you a blizzard, clearly understandable.

                        "Blizzard" is your free interpretation within the framework of the chosen matrix.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        clung to a single word

                        And you carefully choose the vocabulary for your thought, there will be no reason to cling.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        That you are frankly degrading

                        Well, you are, of course, progressing, rubbing away the dirty clichés.
                      8. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 10: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        "Blizzard" is your free interpretation within the framework of the chosen matrix.
                        Wow, what a powerful philosophical argument, blizzard, matrix, what's next - gestalt?

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        And you carefully choose the vocabulary for your thought, there will be no reason to cling.
                        Why did the phrase not please?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Revanchism is only a formal reason, not even the reason for the creation of Nazi Germany.
                        So what does reality reflect?

                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Well, you are, of course, progressing, rubbing away the dirty clichés.
                        To bear sniffed anti-Soviet and Russophobic clichés is so fresh, creative and progressive!
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 30 2021 14: 06
    -1
    to lose the war = gain time?


    Yes. For subsequent revenge.
  • GTYCBJYTH2021
    GTYCBJYTH2021 23 March 2021 02: 21
    -2
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Quote: Malyuta
    The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.
    Gave time and then took theirs.

    In accordance with the treaty, Poland was to provide the person located on its territory linguistic and cultural rights of national minorities to the Ukrainian and Belarusian population. Despite this, on the annexed lands began to be carried out polonization policy with the prohibition of the use in all state institutions of the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages, the general closure of the media and persecution of the Orthodox faith.
    Even in this situation, the Bolsheviks thought about the rights of the people! But the Poles, as true Westerners, spat on the treaty!

    After the treaty came into force, the Polish government, despite the protests of the Soviet side, was in no hurry to fulfill the terms of the treaty: it did not stop supporting anti-Soviet groups on its territory and sabotaged the return of Red Army prisoners of war, keeping them in appalling conditions.
    Westerners, one word! No faith can be it, except with force support.


    It should be noted that in accordance with paragraph 2 of Article 10 of the agreement, the parties waived claims for
    "Misdemeanors against the rules binding on prisoners of war, civilian internees and, in general, citizens of the opposing side."
    Thus, the Bolsheviks doomed a significant part of the captured Red Army soldiers to certain death in the Polish camps. According to various estimates, about 130 thousand Red Army soldiers were captured, of whom about 60 thousand died in the camps due to inhuman conditions of detention.
    But this is already the author's twitching! Obviously, no claims were made for events PREVIOUS to the treaty, so the Bolsheviks did not doom their own, another thing is that the Poles did not give a damn about the clauses of the treaty!

    Man, and after all, you have reviewed unnecessary TVs ... My mom was born in 1926 ... The village of KHOTISLAV, Brest region ... We lived under the Poles, but the church was Orthodox ... the school was in Polish ... .Have a lot of land, hired WORKERS in the summer ....... ate from ONE table ..... and in the fall paid honestly to someone a one-year-old heifer, another a foal .... And at -39 came the communists and ALL And they drove EVERYTHING into a compartment ..... In the winter -41, half of the cattle died of HUNGER .... The chairman of the collective farm Leontyevich was taken away and was never seen again .......
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 05: 17
      0
      Quote: GTYCBJYTH2021
      My mother was born in 1926 .... Village KHOTISLAV, Brest region

      What, another "officer's daughter"? How old are you, with your mother born in 26?
      1. GTYCBJYTH2021
        GTYCBJYTH2021 23 March 2021 07: 49
        -1
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Quote: GTYCBJYTH2021
        My mother was born in 1926 .... Village KHOTISLAV, Brest region

        What, another "officer's daughter"? How old are you, with your mother born in 26?

        I'm not a woman and I'm not ashamed of my age - fifty-seven was last year ..... Got it? If not, they pull in the words of the Yegeshniki, 19.12.1963/XNUMX/XNUMX. If we haven't moved in here either, I can't help ... request request
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 23 March 2021 08: 12
          0
          Quote: GTYCBJYTH2021
          If not, they pull in the words of the Yegeshniki-19.12.1963

          Are you a late child for a country woman?
          1. GTYCBJYTH2021
            GTYCBJYTH2021 23 March 2021 08: 47
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quote: GTYCBJYTH2021
            If not, they pull in the words of the Yegeshniki-19.12.1963

            Are you a late child for a country woman?

            Late ..... And you came out of your twenty-year-old mother ... Raise us mom and dad ......
  • Far B
    Far B 22 March 2021 05: 12
    +3
    In general, posing the question in a stupor introduces. The author asks the question as if the Bolsheviks in 2021 had all the tools on hand to cut the state borders at their own discretion, yeah. A country ravaged by wars, a weak (frankly speaking) army, industry - even the one inherited from tsarism, in ruins - that's all that the Bolsheviks had at that time. In general, they should be given great credit for the fact that in the shortest possible time they were able to return the territories captured by the centrifugal forces of February-1917 into the orbit of a single state. And 4-5 years is really the shortest time, given the forces opposing the Bolsheviks.
    1. apro
      apro 22 March 2021 05: 22
      +1
      Quote: Dalny V
      In general, they should be given great credit

      It is not honorable today to talk about the positive activities of the Bolsheviks. They only planted mines and made galoshes. Today, the trend is to blame the Bolsheviks for all the troubles of Russia, from the borders to the oil needle. From ineffective industry to the welfare state.
      1. lucul
        lucul 22 March 2021 06: 03
        -14%
        Today, the trend is to blame the Bolsheviks for all the troubles of Russia

        Well, yes, well, yes, there was no Red Terror, did it? Is this all fiction?
        By the way, did you deliberately write Russia with a small letter?
        1. Far B
          Far B 22 March 2021 06: 07
          +6
          Do not remind me, in response to what events the Red Terror was declared? Or is it only at the request of Comrade Sverdlov's left heel?
          1. lucul
            lucul 22 March 2021 06: 11
            -12%
            Do not remind me, in response to what events the Red Terror was declared? Or is it only at the request of Comrade Sverdlov's left heel?

            What? Are you saying that if the Germans genocide the Russians in World War II, then the Russians were also obliged to genocide the Germans in return?
            1. Far B
              Far B 22 March 2021 06: 27
              0
              No analogy. I will repeat the words of Lenin's grandfather: "Any revolution is only worth something if it knows how to defend itself." The Bolsheviks defended themselves by applying completely symmetrical measures to their class enemies. The Germans exterminated the civilian population indiscriminately, generally losing the coast. To answer them symmetrically then meant to lose their human appearance, having exterminated an entire nation of millions. The USSR did not agree to this (and did not allow the Brits, although they offered). Feel the difference. And do not pull the owl on the globe anymore, otherwise I will file a complaint against you at Greenpeace for cruel treatment of birds.
              1. GTYCBJYTH2021
                GTYCBJYTH2021 23 March 2021 08: 11
                0
                Quote: Far In
                No analogy. I will repeat the words of Lenin's grandfather: "Any revolution is only worth something if it knows how to defend itself." The Bolsheviks defended themselves by applying completely symmetrical measures to their class enemies. The Germans exterminated the civilian population indiscriminately, generally losing the coast. To answer them symmetrically then meant to lose their human appearance, having exterminated an entire nation of millions. The USSR did not agree to this (and did not allow the Brits, although they offered). Feel the difference. And do not pull the owl on the globe anymore, otherwise I will file a complaint against you at Greenpeace for cruel treatment of birds.

                Citizen and PERSON -I'm with you ..... Retired, really, but I can ...... I'm not a staff officer .... Doesn't let the site video ......
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 08: 30
            -2
            Quote: Dalny V
            do not remind, in response to what events the Red Terror was declared?

            DECISION
            from 5 September to 1918 year


            ABOUT RED TERROR


            The Council of People's Commissars, having heard the report of the Chairman of the All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for the Fight against Counter-Revolution, Speculation and Crime by Position on the activities of this Commission, finds that in this situation, ensuring the rear through terror is a direct necessity; that in order to strengthen the activities of the All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for the fight against counter-revolution, speculation and crime in office and to make it more systematic, it is necessary to send as many responsible party comrades as possible there; that it is necessary to ensure the Soviet Republic from class enemies by isolating them in concentration camps; that all persons touched by White Guard organizations, conspiracies and rebellions are subject to execution; that it is necessary to publish the names of all executed, as well as the grounds for applying this measure to them.

            Signed: People's Commissioner of Justice D. KURSKIY
            People's Commissar for Internal Affairs G. PETROVSKY
            Manager of the Council of People's Commissars Vl. BONCH-BRUEVICH

            Because why not? Guess right, guessed right?
            1. Far B
              Far B 22 March 2021 08: 40
              +3
              finds that in this situation providing the rear by terror is a direct necessity
              And to what place should this resolution be applied? What does this situation include? What is it? Do not explain yet for "this situation" - no, you have not guessed.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 08: 50
                -5
                Quote: Dalny V
                What does this situation include? What is it?

                Comrade Dzerzhinsky wanted to kill more people. If possible, everyone.

                No, the answer will not go?
                1. Far B
                  Far B 22 March 2021 08: 57
                  +6
                  Comrade Dzerzhinsky wanted to kill more people. If possible all
                  Therefore, comrade. Dzerzhinsky took the lead (and very successfully) in bringing homeless children back to normal life. It is logical, cho.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 09: 00
                    -3
                    Quote: Dalny V
                    Therefore, comrade. Dzerzhinsky led (and very successfully) the work to return street children to normal life

                    Comrade Dzerzhinsky loved children and disliked their parents. Well, I heard.
                    1. Far B
                      Far B 22 March 2021 09: 05
                      +3
                      Are you:
                      Comrade Dzerzhinsky wanted to kill more people. If possible all

                      Are you:
                      Comrade Dzerzhinsky loved children

                      To summarize: children are not people. Offset!
                    2. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 09: 14
                      -1
                      You see, addicts don't have to be consistent in their actions. I would say that this, in principle, should not be expected of them.
                    3. Far B
                      Far B 22 March 2021 09: 16
                      +5
                      You see, addicts don't have to be consistent in their actions.
                      Kolchak approving.
                    4. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 09: 31
                      -2
                      Quote: Dalny V
                      Kolchak approving

                      Yes, God sent Russia the Supreme Ruler.
              2. Illanatol
                Illanatol April 30 2021 14: 14
                0
                He is not alone. One of the characters "It is difficult to be a god" cult among the liberals authors Strugatskikh dreamed of how nice it would be if the entire adult population of the entire planet disappeared: it was immediately possible to force progressors' activities.
                Okay, this is literary fiction. But in the 90s liberal reformers showed in practice how little they care about their "costs of the process" in building democracy and a market economy. Chubais did not even hide this and spoke openly.
              3. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 30 2021 21: 54
                0
                Quote: Illanatol
                Chubais did not even hide this and spoke openly.

                What other Chubais? Anatoly Borisych, a member of the CPSU since 1978? Yes, the communists are straightforward, principled people.
                Quote: Illanatol
                The oppressed have more reason to hate, which is quite logical.

                You see, in Russia there were not so many landowners and industrialists to really kill many people in order to restore justice. So it was not necessary to be too picky with the biographies of the victims of the Soviet regime.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter 22 March 2021 06: 18
    +21
    Quote: lucul
    Well, yes, well, yes, there was no Red Terror, did it?

    The Red Terror was declared in response to the White Terror.
    To those especially gifted, let me remind you that the Bolsheviks let go of this counter Krasnov on the word of honor of the officer.
    Although he should have been shot like a mad dog.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 22 March 2021 07: 40
      -7
      Quote: Stroporez
      The Red Terror was declared in response to the White Terror.

      we remind the ignorant that BEFORE the red thief and the dispersal of the nationwide US there were no whites, no GW, no mass terror

      All this is the result of exclusively the actions of the VOR.

      Russian citizens who have chosen its power in the world's first free elections to the CA, do not have to recognize a handful losers this election of criminals who treacherously seized power by force.

      And only the usurpers themselves did not understand that their coup and aiding the German occupation inevitably lead to hepatitis B and intervention
      Quote: Stroporez
      To those especially gifted, let me remind you that the Bolsheviks let go of this counter Krasnov on the word of honor of the officer.

      especially illiterate lovers of the Bolsheviks. nonsense recall that it was the Bolsheviks the first they promised Krasnov during the negotiations NOT to arrest him, but they arrested him.

      The result of the VORs is the wild losses of the GW, several times higher than the losses in ... World War, the destroyed economy, the destroyed freedom and poverty of the Russian people for many decades.

      ALL so-called. the "worlds" concluded by the Bolsheviks in 1918-1921 are extremely shameful, anti-Russian and treacherous - Brestkiy, Tartus, Riga, Moscow and their purpose was to preserve their anti-people power to the detriment of the preservation of Russia and the Russian people. Russian lands, Russian people, Russian gold and wealth were distributed by them left and right without counting and regret, for example, as here:
      Russia was humiliated with rather onerous reparations. Poland demanded the return of all historical and cultural values, payments for the contribution to the economy of the Russian Empire 300 million gold rubles and two thousand steam locomotives. Under the treaty, Russia undertook to transfer to Poland all cultural and historical values, as well as war trophies, exported from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since 1772,
      Russia was handed out to all sorts of Estonians, Lvivs, Lithuania, Poland, Turkey, etc., and was NEVER returned to her again.

      Author:
      Pilsudski, who announced the restoration of the Commonwealth within the borders of 1772 and began to take steps to implement this plan, taking advantage of the weakening of Germany and Russia. The question immediately arose about the recognized borders of Poland, which led to the Soviet-Polish war.

      The author did not mention the main thing: the traitorous Bolsheviks in 1918 themselves abolished ALL partitions of Poland, thereby abolishing the borders of Russia in the West and recognizing the borders of 1772.

      Then they organized an insane campaign to capture Europe (and these people yelled about ... a world without annexations and indemnities!):
      High in the clear sky, a scarlet banner is hovering,
      We rush on horseback to where the enemy is visible.
      And in a battle of ravishing
      A swift avalanche -
      Give Warsaw, give Berlin ...
      (A. Frenkel, March of Budyonny, 1920)

      The gamble naturally ended with terrible losses and problems and claims that have not ended so far ...

      Article plus.
      1. Far B
        Far B 22 March 2021 07: 54
        +5
        BEFORE the red thief and the dispersal of the nationwide US there were no whites, no GW, no mass terror
        Congratulations to you lying. If this is not a Civil War, then what is it ?:
        The July days (the July uprising, the July crisis) - anti-government demonstrations on July 3-5 (16-18), 1917 in Petrograd, following the military defeat at the front and the government crisis (the departure of the cadet ministers from the government under the pretext of concessions made by the government delegation in negotiations with the Central Council). The July events upset the unstable balance of power between the Provisional Government and the Petrograd Soviet ("dual power"). The unrest that began with the spontaneous actions of the soldiers of the 1st Machine Gun Regiment, workers of Petrograd factories, Kronstadt sailors under the slogans of the immediate resignation of the Provisional Government and the transfer of power to the Soviets, took place with the direct participation of anarchists and part of the Bolsheviks [
        The Kornilov speech (in Soviet historiography - the Kornilov mutiny, Kornilovshchina) is an unsuccessful attempt to establish a military dictatorship, undertaken by the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, General of Infantry L.G. Kornilov in August (September) 1917 with the aim of restoring "solid power" in Russia and with the help of military force, the coming to power of left radicals (Bolsheviks) [
        Everything else you have written does not even need a comment.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 22 March 2021 08: 11
          -5
          Quote: Dalny V
          Congratulations to you lying. If this is not a Civil War, then what is it?

          learn to begin with, WHAT is GV and finally find out that even your Swiss foreign tourists announced GW only AFTER the thief -in November 1918
          dawned not?
          Or are you smarter than your Ulyanov bronsteins?


          Quote: Dalny V
          Everything else you have written does not even need a comment.

          certainly all the truth. yes
          1. Far B
            Far B 22 March 2021 08: 25
            +2
            learn to begin with, WHAT is GV
            So learn what is stopping you?
            even your Swiss foreign tourists announced about GW only AFTER the thief - in November 1918. got it, didn't it?
            And why are you referring to Soviet historiography? Well you hate everything Soviet. So look at the picture as a whole, with an open mind. If the horizon allows. Got it, didn't it?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 22 March 2021 09: 47
              -4
              Quote: Dalny V
              So learn what is stopping you?
              even your Swiss foreign tourists announced about GW only AFTER the thief - in November 1918. got it, didn't it?
              And why are you referring to Soviet historiography? Well you hate everything Soviet. So look at the picture as a whole, with an open mind. If the horizon allows.

              ONCE AGAIN: you DO NOT agree with your leaders, who announced the onset of the GW only in November 1918 (although it would be more profitable for them to say the way you do)?

              They, contemporaries, were wrong, and you ... no? lol


              They just KNEW what GV is, and you, ignoramus, -no.

              PS Didn't get to you, didn't ....
          2. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 09: 49
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            learn to begin with, WHAT is GW and find out, finally, that even your Swiss foreign tourists about GW said only AFTER the THIEF

            Teacher Olgovich, you can only teach nonsense, lies and tattered quotes.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 22 March 2021 10: 42
              -1
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Teacher Olgovich, you are only nonsense, lies and tattered quotes and you can teach.


              your so-called "leaders" taught you a lie: from their first day to their very last, they only did that shamelessly and continuously to you lied, lied and lied: about the world, about the land, about freedom, about demography, about losses, elections, the standard of living, prospects and achievements.

              The result was, in the end, an unimaginable shameful incident: after 70 years of avid vigorous reports of congresses about the "achievements" of more and more shining "peaks", the country found itself ... in deep holes: collapsed into pieces, dying out and with coupons for underpants.
          3. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 22 March 2021 11: 17
            +3
            WHAT is GW

            What is GW? Historians still cannot define themselves unequivocally, but everything is so easy with you. Everything was narrowed down to primitive - if the losses of the opposing sides in an intrastate conflict reached 1000 people, then a civil war has begun and until there are less than 1000 people a year, then it is still going on.
        2. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 22 March 2021 09: 48
          +18
          Quote: Dalny V
          Everything else you have written does not even need a comment.

          Comrade, remember when the nominees for the best commentator of the year were discussed?
          Duc Olgovich was given the general opinion for being stubborn! yes I know him for a long time, he can carry such a blizzard about three spikelets and how Stalin and Lenin ate children, then they shot everyone, and then they sent them to the gulag, they shot them there again, but they asked for time off and went to take Berlin, after which they were shot by a detachment and again They sent him to the gulag, but he was born from someone and the Bolsheviks forcibly taught him to read and write while they beat him for a long time. So I think, quite a lot of fellow citizens were taught to read and write in vain.
          Only Tatra feels comfortable with him, God grant her health!
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 08: 34
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        And only the usurpers themselves did not understand that their coup and complicity with the German occupiers would inevitably lead to the Civil War and intervention.

        They understood perfectly well, first of all, Lenin. He was an extremely gifted man, in his own way, of course. You cannot build a new government without a large movement, let alone such.
      3. Hagen
        Hagen 22 March 2021 09: 31
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        All this is the result of exclusively the actions of the VOR.

        You impermissibly greatly simplify the situation in Russia in 1917 and the social tension that was ripe by that time. The ideas of VOSR captured a significant part of the population of Russia, which followed the so-called. "Thieves". And for this they had reasons that arose as a result of the internal policy of the state. I don’t think that the role of the public masses in history can be so easily neglected. This is a dead-end reasoning.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 22 March 2021 10: 57
          -2
          Quote: Hagen
          The ideas of VOSR captured a significant part of the population of Russia, which followed the so-called. "Thieves"

          1. VOR became VOSR in the 1930s

          2.Most of them went against the thieves-see. the results of the world's first free elections.

          3. Moreover, the thieves lied even to their voters: they promised exactly peaceful work in parliament -US (for the sake of the US, they allegedly committed a thief), and not ... its dissolution, the overthrow of the legitimate government, a wild slaughter of 12 million people , famine with cannibalism, war communism, betrayal of Brest, etc.

          Those. they outright deceived their own voters, who would never have agreed to what the Bolsheviks had done and would never have voted for them.

          Think about WHY. the Bolsheviks NEVER held popular elections. Yes, they were afraid of them, like the devil of incense, for they knew that they would be thrown off with a bang
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 22 March 2021 12: 01
            +1
            VOR became VOSR in the 1930s

            More precisely, on the 20th anniversary of the revolution.
            Can you show where the combination of the words "great" and "October" was used before the word "revolution" until the 30s? In addition to the combinations "October revolution", "October coup", there was a combination of "Great proletarian revolution", where "great" was associated with the word "proletarian", but not "October". I have never met other options where the word "great" was. If you can show me where you can see such a combination, I will be grateful.
      4. gsev
        gsev 22 March 2021 11: 17
        +2
        Quote: Olgovich
        and dispersal of the nationwide US

        The CA refused to approve the Land Decree and signed its own verdict. In the summer of 1917, the Russian peasantry destroyed the landlord's land use. After that, a political force was to come to power, which would legally approve the summer land revolution. This force turned out to be the Bolsheviks and the grassroots organizations of the Socialist-Revolutionaries and anarchists. During the dispersal, the Bolsheviks, represented by Yakov Sverdlov, simply approved the actions of Anatoly Zheleznyak's anarchist detachment.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 12: 12
          +1
          Quote: gsev
          In the summer of 1917, the Russian peasantry destroyed the landlord's land use. After that, a political force was supposed to come to power.

          How interesting. And in fact, in November 17th, mainly the Socialist-Revolutionaries got into the Constituent Assembly, who then lost to their more determined brothers, who had amassed gangs of deserters and marauders.
          1. gsev
            gsev 22 March 2021 13: 10
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            mainly the Socialist-Revolutionaries were included in the constituent group, who then lost to their more determined brothers

            In Russia, often sluggish rogues often get into parliament, and history is made by more resolute and strong-willed people. Compare Putin and his polite people with the United Russia party in the Duma.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 13: 28
              +2
              Quote: gsev
              Compare Putin and his polite people with the United Russia party in the Duma.

              )))
              Great analogy, thank you.
          2. boris epstein
            boris epstein 22 March 2021 16: 11
            0
            "... in November 17th, it was mainly the Socialist-Revolutionaries who got into the Constituent Assembly ..,"
            And these same SRs refused to approve the Decree on Land, which was written off by the Bolsheviks from the program of the SRs themselves. And it was already impossible not to accept the Decree on Land after the spontaneous division of the landowners' lands by the peasants. The Bolsheviks understood this, but the Socialist-Revolutionaries did not. So we lost.
            And they showed their crooked face many times. The organization of the uprising in Yaroslavl (Savinkov and Perkhurov), the creation of the anti-Soviet army by the SS Antonov brothers, with the help of the White Czechs, in Simbirsk and Kazan (the KomUCH Committee of the Constituent Assembly members), where, by the way, they seized the gold reserve of the Russian Empire, with the help of anarchists in Moscow (Popov's detachment), the assassination of the German ambassador Mirbach Blumkin and Aleksandrovsky, which caused the end of the truce between Germany and the RSFSR and led to the conclusion of the shameful Brest Peace and the complete occupation of Ukraine by the Germans, support for Kolchak in Siberia. Yes, and Savinkov did not calm down until Artuzov lured him out during the operation Trust in the USSR, where he was tried.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 17: 31
              +2
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              it was no longer possible to adopt the Decree on Land after the spontaneous division of the landowners' lands by the peasants

              As if they were dispersed by peasants with pitchforks, and not soldiers with sailors.
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              And they showed their crooked face many times

              Naturally. For 50 years they fought with the tsar with bombs, they decided to continue in the same spirit. But they underestimated their former colleagues.
              1. boris epstein
                boris epstein 22 March 2021 19: 01
                0
                Yes, the landowners' lands were divided by soldiers who deserted from the front with arms, but this does not change the guilt of the Socialist-Revolutionaries for not accepting the Decree on Land, which was written off from the program of the Socialist-Revolutionaries themselves.
                "... we decided to continue in the same spirit. But they underestimated our former colleagues."
                There was a fundamental difference: There were Right SRs who denied the armed path of coming to power, and there were Left SRs, led by Savinkov, who used weapons. That's just in Yaroslavl, Simbirsk, Irkutsk, Moscow, Kazan, the Antonov brothers, they - both the right and the left - were together. And the Bolsheviks were not their colleagues. ONCE, in Tbilisi, the Bolsheviks (Ter-Petrosyan-Kamo) used a bomb. Money was expropriated. But the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of Ingushetia sent to all countries the numbers and series of the transported bills and they were not accepted for payment anywhere. The expropriations have lost their meaning. But the tsar did not object to the Left SR expropriations, that is, he did not send out numbers and series of bills and they were accepted for payment. Likewise, the "shy" RIGHT SRs, who themselves did not use weapons, took money from the LEFT SRs and they did not burn their hands. Duplicity.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 22 March 2021 12: 24
          -1
          Quote: gsev
          The CA refused to approve the Land Decree and signed its own verdict.

          The US ACCEPTED the Law on the Land and it was immediately dispersed by the bandits - it never reached the people. Therefore, there can be no question of any "sentence"
          Quote: gsev
          ... During the dispersal, the Bolsheviks represented by Yakov Sverdlov simply approved the actions of the anarchist detachment Anatoly Zheleznyak.

          Yes, you are simply illiterate: on January 6, the so-called. "vtsik" adopted the so-called The decree on the dissolution of the CA "and thus unleashed bloody BATTLE instead of peaceful work in parliament.
      5. bk0010
        bk0010 22 March 2021 12: 15
        +3
        Quote: Olgovich
        All this is the result of exclusively the actions of the VOR.
        No, this is all the result of the actions of the whites. The Bolsheviks did not need all this, they had power.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Russian citizens who have chosen its power in the world's first free elections to the CA, do not have to recognize a handful losers this election of criminals who treacherously seized power by force.
        DC was not power. Generally. Read about his tasks. An ordinary talking shop.
        Quote: Olgovich
        The result of the VORs is the wild losses of the GW, several times higher than the losses in ... World War, the destroyed economy, the destroyed freedom and poverty of the Russian people for many decades.
        No, this is the result of the actions of the king (who destroyed the empire) and dissent.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 22 March 2021 13: 15
          -2
          Quote: bk0010
          No, this is all the result of the actions of the whites. The Bolsheviks did not need all this, they had power.

          where is it "with them"? They seized it by FORCE, deception and betrayal, and Russia did not agree with this.

          Let me remind you again: the Bolsheviks nobody, never, nowhere chose.
          Quote: bk0010
          DC was not power. Generally. Read about his tasks. An ordinary talking shop.
          1.
          1.read about branches authorities, incl. about the legislative.

          2. Find out that the task of the CA was also to form executive the authorities just did not give the bandits.
          Quote: bk0010
          No, this is the result of the actions of the king (who destroyed the empire) and dissent.

          Before the thief, no GW, no 12 million victims of GW, no cannibalism, no destroyed industry (growth only stopped in 1917), no independence and interventions, these ALL "achievements" - only after and as a result of the thief, just look timeline.
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 22 March 2021 16: 00
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            where is it "with them"? They seized it by FORCE, deception and betrayal, and Russia did not agree with this.
            She agreed: see "The Triumphal Procession of Soviet Power."
            Quote: Olgovich
            1. Read about the branches of government, incl. about the legislative.
            2. Find out that the task of the US was and the formation of the executive branch - just the bandits did not give it.
            The US was not a legislative power: its task was to determine the state structure of Russia. We managed without it.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Before the VOR, no GW, no 12 million victims of GW, no cannibalism, no destroyed industry (in 1917, the growth only stopped), no independence and interventions, these are ALL "achievements" - only after and as a result of the VOR, just see the chronology.
            I looked. All of the above takes time, from February to October they simply did not have time to arrange all this.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 23 March 2021 07: 54
              -3
              Quote: bk0010
              She agreed: see "The Triumphal Procession of Soviet Power."

              this stupid lying agitation-roll up in a tube and, yes.
              Quote: bk0010
              The US was not a legislative power: its task was to determine the state structure of Russia.

              nonsense: it WAS the legislature and ADOPTED THE LAWS on the land and the Republic. and her plans included the formation of executive authorities
              We managed without it.

              Failed, see. in the window. And at the same time look into history - tens of millions of corpses of their fellow citizens on the way of the "coped", and the result is a destroyed country, extinction and coupons for cowards.
              Quote: bk0010
              I looked. All of the above takes time, from February to October they simply did not have time to arrange all this

              October arranged all this: this always happens when an insignificant minority, disregarding the will of the majority, disregarding social laws, history and, driven by stillborn chimeras, rapes them.
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 23 March 2021 19: 36
                -1
                Quote: Olgovich
                this stupid false propaganda-roll up into a tube and, yes.
                This is a historical fact, and the fact that you do not like it cannot undo it.
                Quote: Olgovich
                nonsense: it WAS the legislature and ADOPTED THE LAWS on the land and the Republic. and her plans included the formation of executive authorities
                It is not considered: 1) they were adopted after the departure of the Bolsheviks and SRs (who were the majority) 2) The same laws were previously adopted by the All-Russian Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars, the US shamefully copied them. By the way, how do you like the decree on the proclamation of the Russian Democratic federal republics?
                Quote: Olgovich
                Failed, see. in the window. And at the same time look into history - tens of millions of corpses of their fellow citizens on the way of the "coped", and the result is a destroyed country, extinction and coupons for cowards.
                We did it. They restored, industrialized and defended the country, after which they gave up power at the request of the people. As for the corpses, imagine that now they will begin to impose law and justice with an iron hand. How many millions will be repressed? And this is without a civil war, with it it will turn out no less.
                Quote: Olgovich
                October arranged all this: this always happens when an insignificant minority, disregarding the will of the majority, disregarding social laws, history and, driven by stillborn chimeras, rapes them.
                And then by. A tiny minority could not have won the civil war.
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 24 March 2021 09: 56
                -2
                Quote: bk0010
                This is a historical fact, and the fact that you do not like it cannot undo it.

                this is a medical fact of the sick imagination of some: the so-called. sovlvast was immediately sent: Little Russia, Moscow, Don, Kuban, Terek, Volga region, Orenburg region Sr Asia, Irkutsk, Transbaikalia, Siberia (there is a lot of power). Kaluga, etc., etc.
                Quote: bk0010
                It does not count: 1) they were adopted after the departure of the Bolsheviks and SRs (who were the majority) 2

                they were accepted by the remaining MOST, after the departure of the infamous-loser MINORITY
                Quote: bk0010
                2) The same laws were previously adopted by the All-Russian Central Executive Committee and Council of People's Commissars, US shamefully wrote them off

                1. lol laughing government ... making laws? belay lol
                2. The Council of People's Commissars adopted the LAWs, not illegal, unrecognized by the Sovnarkoms.
                Quote: bk0010
                We did it. They restored, industrialized and defended the country, after which they gave up power at the request of the people.

                they failed, they destroyed Russia from 1917 to 1940 into small parts, your industrialization was destroyed first, and so it went on without yours, the country defended itself as it was defended 1000 years before, there were no VKPBee near Borodinoi Poltava, just remember this FACT
                Quote: bk0010
                As for the corpses, imagine that now they will begin to impose law and justice with an iron hand. How many millions will be repressed? And this is without a civil war, with it it will turn out no less.

                and what is .. "justice"? Everyone has their own judgment and the only possible action is the observance of the LAW by ALL. And for any changes, there is a Duma and elections. Stupid Bolshevik actions are millions of corpses

                Quote: bk0010
                And then by. A tiny minority could not have won the civil war.

                an armed bandit in the alley will also defeat you. And by taking away the food, it will make you understand everything. According to you, he is RIGHT
              3. bk0010
                bk0010 24 March 2021 12: 18
                -1
                Quote: Olgovich
                this is a medical fact of the sick imagination of some: the so-called. sovlvast was immediately sent: Little Russia, Moscow, Don, Kuban, Terek, Volga region, Orenburg region Sr Asia, Irkutsk, Transbaikalia, Siberia (there is a lot of power). Kaluga, etc., etc.
                The Soviets were sent not by these regions, but by a pitiful handful of dissent in these regions.
                Quote: Olgovich
                1. lol laughing government ... making laws? belay
                That is, you are not aware that the councils were simultaneously representative-legislative, administrative and control bodies?
                Quote: Olgovich
                2. The Council of People's Commissars adopted the LAWs, not illegal, unrecognized by the Sovnarkoms.
                To accept the LAWS, you need to have the power to insist on their implementation, the DC did not have the power, so these are not LAWS, but tseduli.
                Quote: Olgovich
                they failed, they destroyed Russia from 1917 to 1940 into small parts, your industrialization was destroyed first, and so it went on without yours, the country defended itself as it was defended 1000 years before, there were no VKPBee near Borodinoi Poltava, just remember this FACT
                No, industrialization was destroyed by your crystal bakers. France, for example, also defended itself for 1000 years before, and what did it help them in 1940?
                Quote: Olgovich
                and what is .. "justice"? Everyone has their own judgment and the only possible action is the observance of the LAW by ALL.
                Exactly.
                Quote: Olgovich
                And for any changes, there is a Duma and elections.
                Yes, we are seeing it now. How the people yearn for new bans, extortions and fines! Everything is in his best interest!
                Quote: Olgovich
                Stupid Bolshevik actions are millions of corpses
                The Bolshevik actions are absolutely the same as those of their opponents. Something you do not blame them.
                Quote: Olgovich
                According to you, he is RIGHT
                No, it's your opinion, if the gang held elections, then the bandit can rob you (there are more of them, they voted!).
              4. Olgovich
                Olgovich 24 March 2021 13: 36
                -1
                Quote: bk0010
                The Soviets were sent not by these regions, but by a pitiful handful of dissent in these regions.

                the ignorant know: Kaledin, Dutov, Kerensky, and many others are ELSECTED deputies.
                Quote: bk0010
                To accept the LAWS, you need to have the power to insist on their implementation, the DC did not have strength, so these are not LAWS, but cedules

                and with whom did they fight, but they could never defeat yours? lol
                Quote: bk0010
                No, industrialization was destroyed by your crystal bakers.

                YOUR civil war destroyed it - teach history
                Quote: bk0010
                France, for example, also defended itself for 1000 years before, and what, did it help them in 1940?

                France could not, but Russia could, for an unimaginable price.
                And yes, without the Bolshevik coup-WWII, there is simply no and Karlhorst 1945 would have been in 1918
                Quote: bk0010
                Yes, we are seeing it now. How the people yearn for new bans, extortions and fines! Everything is in his best interest!

                choose YOUR bans, fines, extortions, like a peasant in 1953, after paying all taxes on a cow, there was only one manure from her.
                who's bothering?
                Quote: bk0010
                The Bolshevik actions are absolutely the same as those of their opponents. Something you don't blame them

                bullshit-13 million corpses from hunger, 750 thousand shot in peacetime, etc. and so on, neither Russia nor the world has ever been anywhere else
                Quote: bk0010
                No, it's your opinion, if the gang held elections, then the bandit can rob you (there are more of them, they voted!).

                if there are more of them, it means that the bandits are not them, but ... you
              5. bk0010
                bk0010 24 March 2021 13: 48
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                the ignorant know: Kaledin, Dutov, Kerensky, and many others are ELSECTED deputies.
                So what? Take a look not today's deputies, what are role models?
                Quote: Olgovich
                and with whom did they fight, but they could never defeat yours?
                We won, actually. The last of yours were crushed in the caches in the 50s.
                Quote: Olgovich
                YOUR civil war destroyed it - teach history
                The civil war is yours, the Bolsheviks already had power, they did not need war.
                Quote: Olgovich
                And yes, without the Bolshevik coup-WWII, there is simply no and Karlhorst 1945 would have been in 1918
                What is this nonsense? Wouldn't Germany get robbed? England voluntarily surrendered its colonial system and the position of world leader to the states? Japan would calm down?
                Quote: Olgovich
                who's bothering?
                The deputies are in the way, the police.
                Quote: Olgovich
                bullshit-13 million corpses from hunger, 750 thousand shot in peacetime, etc. and so on, neither Russia nor the world has ever been anywhere else
                In the peaceful, no, but in the civilian - everywhere. And yes, more corpses from hunger! Not 13, but 33!
                Quote: Olgovich
                if there are more of them, it means that the bandits are not them, but ... you
                That is, you have the one who defends himself from the gang of gopniks who "according to his understanding, they have spread everything" - a bandit? Everything is clear with you.
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 30 2021 14: 25
    0
    to the ignorant, we recall that BEFORE the red thief and the dispersal of the nationwide US there were no whites, no GW, no mass terror


    Lies. There was no dispersal of the "Constituent Assembly" by the Bolsheviks. But there was Kornilov's mutiny against the Provisional Government.
    After the Council's refusal to approve the resolution on the transfer of power to the Bolsheviks, the latter, together with the Left SRs, left the meeting in protest. As a result, the Assembly lost its quorum and was unable to pass a single resolution, engaging in fruitless disputes for many hours. In the end, the sailor Zheleznyak (who was a member of the anarchist party at the time) went out to the delegates and invited them to go home without wasting time. The delegates had nothing to argue, they, too, were tired, no less than the sentries. So we just went home. The Bolsheviks did not persecute delegates, some delegates of the US will continue to work for the Soviet government.
    But Kolchak acted differently. When several ex-delegates fell into the clutches of the "Supreme Ruler", he sent them under the ice to look at the fish.
    Such a squiggle.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 22 March 2021 16: 11
    +3
    ...... the Bolsheviks let go of this counter Krasnov ......

    And not only him. Purishkevich, a Black Hundred man, was given only a year in prison, but on May 1 he was released under an amnesty, on the Don he became one of the leaders of the White Guards.
    Vyrubova was released ... The former tsarist dignitaries were released, incl. the former head of the tsarist secret police A. Gerasimov, they were imprisoned under Kerensky.
    In general, the Bolsheviks were very naive, they believed that NOW, under the rule of the People, everything would be fine. The death penalty was abolished. "The Epoch of Beautiful-mindedness". There is such an expression in the book "The Other Lenin" "by A. Maysuryan. A.N. Tolstoy and A. Belyaev also have a description of such fine-mindedness or a mention of something like that.
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 22 March 2021 07: 58
    +6
    Yes Yes
    mister nobleman, tell us about the white terror
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 22 March 2021 08: 51
    +1
    Quote: lucul
    Well, yes, well, yes, there was no Red Terror, yes
    As was the White Terror, and it seems just for the sake of blood.

    Quote: lucul
    What? Are you saying that if the Germans genocide the Russians in World War II, then the Russians were also obliged to genocide the Germans in return?
    Have you heard about the reprisals? And the Red Terror was pinpoint by the standards of that time.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 22 March 2021 09: 35
    +2
    Quote: lucul
    Today, the trend is to blame the Bolsheviks for all the troubles of Russia

    Well, yes, well, yes, there was no Red Terror, did it? Is this all fiction?
    By the way, did you deliberately write Russia with a small letter?

    Civil war is scary.

    In northern Russia, 38 thousand people were sent to Arkhangelsk prison on charges of Bolshevik activity. About 8 thousand prisoners were shot, and more than a thousand died in prison.
    In the same 1918, about 30 thousand people became victims of the "white terror" in the territories under the control of General P.N. Krasnova. Here are the lines from the order of the commandant of the Makeyevsky district of November 10, 1918: “I forbid workers to arrest workers, but I order them to be shot or hanged; I order all the arrested workers to be hanged on the main street and not to be removed for three days. ”
    In November 1918, Admiral A.V. Kolchak actively pursued a policy of expulsion and execution of the Siberian Socialist-Revolutionaries. D.F. Rakov wrote: “Omsk simply froze with horror ... The killed ... there were an infinite number, at least not less than 2500 people. Whole carts of corpses were transported around the city, as they carry in winter lamb and pork carcasses ... "




    1. boris epstein
      boris epstein 22 March 2021 19: 10
      -1
      General Wesley Groves, who commanded American troops in the North of Russia in 1918-1919, wrote in his book that for every shot by the Bolsheviks, there were 8-10 shot by whites.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 23 March 2021 12: 08
        0
        Quote: Boris Epstein
        General Wesley Groves, who commanded American troops in the North of Russia in 1918-1919, wrote in his book

        How many interesting things he did not write in this book of his, judging by the Soviet references to it. A funny thing, probably.

        What kind of book is it called?
        1. boris epstein
          boris epstein 23 March 2021 15: 58
          0
          Books about the White Terror (in all books this is exactly how it is written with a capital letter) in bulk.
          William (Leslie) Richard Groves. Memoirs.
          "Red Terror" "White Terror" in Russia. During the Civil War through the prism of historical concepts of the 20th and 21st centuries
          MS Ratkovsky. Chronicle of the White Terror in Russia. Repression and lynching.
          These are the most relatively impartial.
          In the North of Russia alone, 38000 people were killed in white concentration camps on Mudyug Island, in Yokanga, in Arkhangelsk and simply in barges. And not only whites, but also invaders. It was there that William Richard Groves commanded the American troops. So he knows perfectly well what he is writing about. The British completely shot the crew of the battleship "Chesma".
          In the South of Russia, PN Krasnov, Kornilov, Drozdovsky, Wrangel, Shkuro were distinguished. Kornilov generally said: “We came to power to hang, but we had to hang to come to power.” They shot in 1918 and until mid-1919 ALL Red Army prisoners. Semenov, Kappel, Kolchak, Ungern, Molchanov committed atrocities in the Far East. Until now, in Siberia, especially evil chain dogs are called Kolchaks. Members of the KomUCH and White Czechs in Yaroslavl and the Volga region have especially distinguished themselves.
          In the South, Denikin, in his book Essays on Russian Troubles, called extrajudicial shootings and Jewish pogroms black foam on a white banner. Petliurists and Makhnovists did not hesitate. French counterintelligence service sank the barge with imprisoned Bolsheviks in Odessa. Wrangel in the Crimea, too, did not stop before executions and hanging, and white officers also fell under the noose and bullet. Memoirs of PN Wrangel "The War of 1914-1920."
          In Transcaucasia, the Musavatists and the British were involved in the White Terror.
          In Central Asia, Basmachi.
          In 1918-1920, the Poles committed atrocities in Belarus and Ukraine (ask for Gillaka).
          General Tyutyunnik repeatedly invaded the territory of the Ukrainian SSR from the territory of Poland and Romania (until the defeat in 1929). He burned villages, agricultural machinery of collective farms, grain and grain, shot and hanged Bolsheviks, collective farm chairmen, sympathizers with them (and with whole families).
          In total, according to estimates by various authors, the victims of the White Terror were from 300 to 000 people.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 23 March 2021 21: 58
            +3
            This is an extravaganza, of course.
            Quote: Boris Epstein
            William (Leslie) Richard Groves. Memoirs.

            Leslie Groves is head of the Manhattan Project for a minute. The comrade in question is William S. Graves, The American Intervention in Siberia 1918-1920
            https://www.marxists.org/archive/graves/1931/siberian-adventure/index.htm
            Quote: Boris Epstein
            there and commanded the American troops by William Richard Groves

            Of course, he was on the Transsib. Where did not do more or less a damn thing. No, a certain number of people, of course, were planted on bayonets, in those days one cannot live without this, but against the general background it is simply ridiculous.
            Quote: Boris Epstein
            Books about the White Terror (in all books this is exactly how it is written with a capital letter) in bulk.

            Still would. The Soviet government gave sausage for such books.
            Quote: Boris Epstein
            Petliurists and Makhnovists were not shy

            Not a fig to myself, who was recorded in the white movement. However, it is normal for the Soviet regime, until 41 all bad people were white, after 41 all bad people became fascists.
            1. boris epstein
              boris epstein 24 March 2021 16: 03
              0
              "Petliurists and Makhnovists were not shy"
              But what the hell does it matter who shot the Boesheviks and sympathizers? They all worked at the same cashier.
              "Of course. The Soviet government gave sausage for such books."
              Uh-huh. Finnish. Salami By the way, Melgunov also wrote about the White Terror in Paris, but he did not have time to get the sausages. And it is difficult to suspect him of sympathies for the Soviet power - before the book about the White Terror, he wrote the book The Red Terror. And foreign, white-guard authors also wrote a big list on the Internet. I clearly and clearly wrote: these are more or less impartial.
              "... after 41 all bad people became fascists."
              Is that not true? P N Krasnov (commander of Hitler's cavalry), Semenov, Shkuro (his deputies)
              Turkul and several thousand more came with them to the USSR in 1941, worked in the Abwehr, fought in the 15 Don Cavalry Corps, in the Ministry of Propaganda, as translators in commandant's offices, commanded anti-partisan activities, served in the German ground forces.
              Or recall the Krasnodar trial in 1961?
              "The fellow in question is William S. Graves,"
              The Tambov wolf is his friend. It is easy to change one letter and the person seems to be a different one.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 24 March 2021 19: 48
                +2
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                Who cares about who shot the Bolsheviks and their sympathizers?

                Everyone shot Bolsheviks and sympathizers, so this is not an indicator. And then you have comrade. Yezhov will become a hare.
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                the most or less impartial.

                The most or less impartial wrote that civil war is bad and should be avoided whenever possible.
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                It is easy to change one letter and the person seems to be different.

                Graves disguised himself as Groves and signed up to make an atomic bomb so that all the Bolsheviks would be exterminated at once, did I get your idea right?
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                after 41 all bad people became fascists. "
                Is that not true?

                Of course not.
                By the way, bad people became fascists in the 20s.
                The story of Gavril was concluded in seventy-two lines. At the end of the poem, the letter-bearer Gavril, struck down by a fascist bullet, nevertheless delivers a letter to the address.

                - Where did the case take place? - asked Lapis. The question was legitimate. There are no fascists in the USSR, there are no Gavril or members of the Union of Communications Workers abroad.

                - What's the matter? - said Lyapis. - The matter is happening, of course, with us, and the fascist is dressed up.


                Of course, yes. In fact, Mr. Churchill is now in the position of warmongers. And Mr. Churchill is not alone here - he has friends not only in England, but also in the United States of America.

                It should be noted that Mr. Churchill and his friends are strikingly reminiscent of Hitler and his friends in this respect. Hitler started the war by proclaiming a racial theory, declaring that only people who speak German represent a full-fledged nation. Mr. Churchill also begins the cause of unleashing the war with a racial theory, arguing that only the nations that speak English are full-fledged nations called upon to decide the fate of the whole world. German racial theory led Hitler and his friends to the conclusion that the Germans, as the only fully-fledged nation, should rule over other nations. The English racial theory leads Mr. Churchill and his friends to the conclusion that the nations that speak the English language, as the only full-fledged ones, should dominate the rest of the nations of the world.

                In fact, Mr. Churchill and his friends in England and the United States are presenting something like an ultimatum to nations that do not speak English: accept our domination voluntarily, and then everything will be all right, otherwise war is inevitable. But nations have shed their blood during five years of brutal war for the freedom and independence of their countries, not in order to replace Hitler rule with Churchill rule. It is likely, therefore, that nations that do not speak English and at the same time constitute the vast majority of the world's population will not agree to a new slavery.
              2. boris epstein
                boris epstein 25 March 2021 16: 36
                -1
                "Graves disguised himself as Groves and signed up to make an atomic bomb to kill all the Bolsheviks at once, did I get your idea right?"
                You become very similar to Tsymbalyuk, who, in direct lines with Putin, perverts everything inside out.
                On the subject of repression, I don't really give a damn about Grace or Groves. There is a modern saying: "Do you want checkers or go?" But if you go, then the fact is obvious - the recognition that there were many times more victims of the White Guard terror than the Red terror. And it doesn't matter who wrote it. At least H.G. Wells.
                Back to Grace and Groves, when did the civil war in northern Russia end?
                And in the Far East it lasted until the end of 1922, although the official date of its completion is 1921. And the Basmachi were cultivated until the mid-30s. And there were British advisers, also colonels and generals, British money and British weapons. In general, do you see a gopher? Not. And he is there. Lapis Trubetskoy is the head. And Ostap Suleiman Berta Maria Bender Bay is also the head.
                Yes, and Yezhov, whoever he was, was shot.
                In general, stop spam. I will not reply anymore.
              3. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 25 March 2021 21: 36
                +1
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                there were many times more victims of the White Guard terror than the terror of the Red

                This, of course, is a lie. To find the predominant victims of the White Terror, one should firstly consider specific territories and periods where the Reds have not yet had time to deploy - as the period of the FER. Secondly, it is very useful to inscribe in the White movement any trash, like Petliura or Semyonov, or in general great friends of the Bolsheviks, like Makhno.
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                I will not answer any more.

                Well and goodies.
              4. Illanatol
                Illanatol April 30 2021 14: 33
                0
                Concerning the so-called. "red terror". Often it was not caused by ideology, but by the natural hatred of the oppressed towards the oppressors. The oppressed have more reason to hate, which is quite logical.
                Emelyan Pugachev's comrades were not Marxists, but they treated the nobles very harshly. What is called, boiled.
                The merit of the Bolsheviks is that they were able to structure this energy of hatred and use it not only for destruction.
                A revolt is much worse than a revolution.
  • apro
    apro 22 March 2021 09: 37
    +4
    Quote: lucul
    There was no Red Terror, did it?

    As well as the conspiracies of the white armies of foreign intervention .. it's all fiction.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 22 March 2021 15: 47
      +3
      ........ foreign intervention .......

      I remember Yesenin's poems:
      That same night
      And fog
      Shot them
      The detachment of the British.
      ************************
      26 them,
      26.
      Their graves sands
      Do not borrow.
      No one will forget
      Their shooting
      On 207
      Verste.
      **********************
      It is not the wind that makes noise
      Not fog.
      Can you hear how he speaks
      Shaumyan:
      "" Japaridze,
      Or am I blind
      Look:
      The workers have bread.
      Oil --- as black
      Blood of the earth.
      Locomotives around ...
      Ships ...
      And in all ships
      On trains
      Our red is driven in
      Star"".
      And this happened in different places in our country!
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 March 2021 08: 00
        +1
        Quote: Reptiloid
        I remember Yesenin's poems

        Yes Yes. Sergei Alexandrovich, too, could not refuse himself, he took up propaganda. Poets also need to eat.

        In reality, the story with the commissars is an unremarkable episode of the inter-party discussion of the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries. For obvious reasons, it was presented mainly by the Bolsheviks.
  • lucul
    lucul 22 March 2021 06: 05
    -7
    A country ravaged by wars, a weak (frankly speaking) army, industry - even the one inherited from tsarism, in ruins - that's all that the Bolsheviks had at that time

    So why did you go to Poland? Could make peace along the Curzon line, no? There would be no such territorial losses.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter 22 March 2021 06: 16
    +18
    Quote: Dalny V
    And 4-5 years is really the shortest time, given the forces opposing the Bolsheviks.

    Comrade, you and I understand that if it were not for the Bolsheviks, the country would not exist, only the bakeries would come flying in and tell how wonderful and satisfying the peasants lived in the Russian Federation.
    1. Far B
      Far B 22 March 2021 06: 34
      +3
      ... and to the accompaniment of Schubert's waltzes, they drove round dances to Ivan Kupala, drinking drunken honey and eating jelly shores. They can do that, yes.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 22 March 2021 06: 37
        +19
        Quote: Dalny V
        And to the accompaniment of Schubert's waltzes, they drove round dances to Ivan Kupala, drinking drunken honey and eating jelly shores. They can do that, yes.

        Nobles, what can you take from them, blue blood wassat
    2. lucul
      lucul 22 March 2021 06: 43
      -8
      Comrade, you and I understand that if it were not for the Bolsheviks, the country would not exist,

      Why ? I am not a supporter of the Provisional Government, but it could just as well have come out of the war by concluding a peace with Germany, and not as obscene as Brest.
      And then, elections and so on. Even if others had thrown them off (not the Bolsheviks), the Civil War would not have happened.
      Do you envisage this scenario?
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 22 March 2021 06: 50
        +18
        Quote: lucul
        Do you envisage this scenario?

        This option was not possible, but it was not particularly considered then, the allied debt to the Entente, however, her mother ...
      2. mat-vey
        mat-vey 22 March 2021 07: 09
        +3
        Quote: lucul
        Why ? I am not a supporter of the Provisional Government, but it could just as well have come out of the war by concluding a peace with Germany, and not as obscene as Brest.

        "The so-called" accompanying note "of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Provisional Government P. N. Milyukov was intended to reassure Russia's allies in World War I. - primarily England and France - about Russia's possible withdrawal from the war. . "
        On July 24 (August 6), 1917, the second coalition Provisional Government was formed, with Aleksandr Kerensky as the minister-chairman and the military and naval minister ... The government's decision to launch an offensive at the front caused a new, July crisis. Having formed a large grouping of troops in the South-West direction, the Headquarters intended to start active hostilities as soon as possible. The start of the offensive at the front was given on June 18 (July 1), initially it developed quite successfully. But it was not possible to develop victorious actions, and the subsequent failure of the offensive caused a stormy protest from soldiers in the capital, who did not want to be sent to the front. Already on July 2 (15), rallies of many thousands began in Petrograd. The situation was complicated by the ambiguous state of affairs in Ukraine: there was an active formation of national military units, and the Central Rada, which led the Ukrainian national liberation movement, despite the objections of the Provisional Government, unilaterally proclaimed the autonomy of Ukraine. On the night of July 3 (16), the cadet ministers, due to disagreements on the Ukrainian question, resigned from the government, which seriously aggravated the situation in Petrograd. Under these conditions, soldiers began demonstrations in the capital, which were strongly influenced by the anarchists and Bolsheviks.
      3. tatra
        tatra 22 March 2021 08: 24
        0
        WHY was the Brest Peace Treaty needed at all? And because, praised by the enemies of the Bolsheviks, 30 years after the capture of Russia by you cowardly dumping responsibility for the capture of the USSR on the Communists, Nicholas II surrendered to the Germans the territories in which more than 20 million subjects of the Russian Empire lived. And everything else you have is unfounded fantasies.
        1. Woodman
          Woodman 22 March 2021 08: 40
          0
          Quote: tatra
          Nicholas II surrendered to the Germans the territories in which more than 20 million subjects of the Russian Empire lived. And everything else you have is unfounded fantasies.

          You have no problems with imagination either. Before the abdication of the tsar, the Empire did not lose any significant territories, especially territories with a multimillion population. The loss of territories occurred after the abdication. And thanks to the desire of some individuals to turn the "imperialist war into a civil war." See the chronology of events.
          1. tatra
            tatra 22 March 2021 08: 48
            0
            Stop lying. Occupied by the Germans on the day of the abdication of the Russian Emperor - 02.03.1917/0,3/23,2 - and actually lost Russian lands had an area of ​​1914 million square kilometers with a population of XNUMX million people (in XNUMX). And the Bolsheviks had to disentangle the fact that Nicholas II dragged Russia and the Russian people into the First World War, which they did not need, surrendered these territories to the Germans, and then abandoned the country and the people.
            And besides that, he gave Russian territories to the Japanese after the Russian-Japanese war.
            1. Woodman
              Woodman 22 March 2021 08: 56
              +2
              Quote: tatra
              Occupied by the Germans on the day of the abdication of the Russian Emperor

              If I'm not mistaken, this is a quote from the forum of your associates? Look at the front line at this date, and not at the date of the signing of the Brest Peace Treaty, if you have no other sources.
          2. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 22 March 2021 09: 18
            +1
            Before the abdication of the tsar, the Empire did not lose any significant territories, especially territories with a multimillion population. The loss of territories occurred after the abdication.

            Does the water in your kettle boil because steam bubbles appear or because there is a fire under the kettle?
            1. Woodman
              Woodman 22 March 2021 09: 20
              +2
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              And the water in your kettle boils because steam bubbles appear

              As far as I understand, you have no sane counterarguments?
          3. apro
            apro 22 March 2021 10: 04
            +2
            Quote: Lesovik
            Territory losses occurred after the abdication

            Yes .. and the seizure of Warsaw and Riga. And the formation of pro-German state education. This is somehow not considered.
            1. Woodman
              Woodman 22 March 2021 10: 44
              +1
              Quote: apro
              Yes .. and the capture of Warsaw and Riga

              Riga fell five months after Nikolai's abdication. Warsaw at that time was a border city and, in fact, the Empire was waging a war on the periphery, preventing the enemy from entering the internal regions of the Empire. The secession of Poland from the Empire was formalized after the abdication of Nicholas under the Provisional Government. And if not for the further collapse of the army, the Empire, even without Nicholas on the throne, could get out of the war at least without losing territories. Nicholas, of course, is a frankly weak ruler, but the Empire was not going to capitulate under him.
              1. apro
                apro 22 March 2021 11: 13
                +3
                Quote: Lesovik
                but the Empire was not going to capitulate under him.

                I readily believe. It remained to win in the war, where not only the Germans, but also the Russians and their allies did not regret victories for the empire.
                1. Woodman
                  Woodman 22 March 2021 11: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: apro
                  but also the Russians with their allies.

                  Here I agree. It's complicated. And if you can still ignore your allies, then with your own it will not work. Here either act extremely tough, or withdraw yourself. We know the result.
              2. gsev
                gsev 22 March 2021 11: 24
                +3
                Quote: Lesovik
                The secession of Poland from the Empire was formalized after the abdication of Nicholas under the Provisional Government.

                If you read the memoirs of Chernov, the leader of the Right Socialist-Revolutionary Party, you will learn that in the spring of 1914 he discussed with the emissary Pilsudski how much land would go to independent Poland after the World War. Chernov did not leave information as to how much the Poles demanded of him. But some data say that the Polish claims covered the whole of Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine right up to the Azov and Kuban regions.
          4. Illanatol
            Illanatol 1 May 2021 08: 42
            0
            And thanks to the desire of some individuals to turn the "imperialist war into a civil war." See the chronology of events.


            It would be nice to see it yourself.
            The abdication itself launched the process of the collapse of the empire. Why, for the sake of the outskirts, had to recognize the power of incomprehensible masters over themselves, that in tsarist times they sold haberdashery or fluttered their tongues in courts?
            So even before October there was no longer a single state. Gone are Ukraine, Finland, Georgia, the Caucasus, Central Asia. Its own "parade of sovereignties", as at the end of perestroika.
            And the remaining stump of the state was too weak, and the fighting spirit was undermined, above all by the desertion of Nikolashka himself.
            Well, and the democratic decrees of the Provisional Government in the military sphere.

            -On the agenda is the question: are we going on the offensive against the German or continue to eat moonshine.
            -We vote. Approved unanimously. We continue to eat moonshine.

            By the way, the antiwar propaganda was not only carried out by the Bolsheviks. Anarchists were even more effective .. And propaganda was conducted on both sides, which will play an important role in the defeat and collapse of the German and Austro-Hungarian empires.
        2. bk0010
          bk0010 22 March 2021 12: 19
          +1
          Quote: tatra
          WHY was the Brest Peace Treaty needed at all?
          That the Germans did not take Petrograd. The old army practically disappeared, there was no protection between St. Petersburg and the Germans.
      4. gsev
        gsev 22 March 2021 13: 23
        +2
        Quote: lucul
        I am not a supporter of the Provisional Government, but it could just as well have come out of the war by concluding peace with Germany

        The problem of the government of the capitalist ministers is that it led the country much more mediocre than the tsarist dignitaries. It was under him that nationalism seized the army, and a separatist movement was organized. The burden of the surplus appropriation fell practically only on the peasants, and the landowners received the right to surrender grain with a delay and at a higher price.
      5. Illanatol
        Illanatol 1 May 2021 08: 50
        0
        Would a government so weak that even its own capital was not controlled (armed opposition is at hand), to keep such a large country under control?
        Definitely not. Our allies, "Western partners" have done everything to chop off fatter pieces for themselves.
        As they are doing now, trying to establish their control over the republics of the FSU.
        We have already lost Georgia, Ukraine, the Baltics, it seems, for a long time. We almost lost Belarus.
        Then it would be worse ... there was no only deterrent - nuclear weapons.

        So the picture would be bleak: the Russian North would go to the British, Ukraine to the French, Far East and Siberia would be divided by the Yankees and the Japanese. Would have shrunk until Muscovy of the 16th century.
        Well, yes, but there would be democracy and freedom of speech, although it is unlikely for a long time.
    3. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 22 March 2021 16: 29
      0
      ........ how wonderful and satisfying the peasants lived ...

      Well yes! Well yes! It is so wonderful that according to the only population census in Ingushetia in 1898, the average life expectancy was 30 years! For men, a little less. At the same time, elderly people are known. And all this is the rich: merchants, bankers, officials. Repin's painting "Meeting of the State Council". If the tsar's mother lived> 80 years, then what are the numbers, that on average it turned out 30 years! .. How many young children died to get SUCH an average.
      Out of 18 children of Gorky's grandmother, only three of them survived to the age of majority. But Gorky's grandfather was not poor, not a peasant!
  • Bar1
    Bar1 22 March 2021 06: 45
    -10%
    Quote: Dalny V
    A country ravaged by wars, a weak (frankly speaking) army, industry - even the one inherited from tsarism, in ruins - that's all,


    what are you weaving? You confused 1m.v. From the 2nd century in Soviet Russia, ALL pre-war enterprises remained workers. The military industrial centers of Moscow, Tula, St. Petersburg, Yaroslavl all worked in Soviet times. And the fact that the Jew Tukhachesky fucked up the war with the Poles, it follows from the very essence of the Bolshevik government .Bolsheviks surrendered
    -Finland
    -Given the land to Poland
    -Given away to Manchuria
    - why did they help the eternal enemies of Russia, the Turks, instead of helping Greece.

    The weakness of the Bolshevik state is due to the fact that the Bolsheviks banned trade. An idiotic situation arose: people had money on hand, the peasants brought goods to the city, but could not sell them because there was no trade.
    The Bolsheviks staged an arbitrariness in the country and an idiotic experiment when the natural conditions of trade were prohibited and instead an army of bad Bolshevik officials distributed goods among the population.
    What is it called Socialism? This state of workers and peasants does not belong to either the workers or the peasants. There is nothing social or popular in this; it is TYRANIA.

    1. Far B
      Far B 22 March 2021 07: 04
      +2
      what are you weaving? You confused 1m.v. from the 2nd century in Soviet Russia, ALL pre-war enterprises remained workers
      Well, come on, tell me about how spaceships roam the Bolshoi Theater, the output of these enterprises as of 1921.
      The Bolsheviks surrendered
      -Finland
      -Given the land to Poland
      -Given away to Manchuria
      - why did they help the eternal enemies of Russia the Turks, instead of helping Greece
      Tin, as it bombs you. Finland: de facto independent when the Bolsheviks came to power. Poland: Likewise. Manchuria: RI never belonged to the word "in general". Rent - not identical of property... About the Turks and Greeks - well, probably, from the standpoint of their time and their position, they could see a little better than you, no?
      The Bolsheviks staged arbitrariness in the country and an idiotic experiment when the natural conditions of trade were prohibited and instead an army of bad Bolshevik officials distributed goods among the population
      The Bolsheviks were building a new social system from scratch, with no historical examples to guide them. Mistakes were inevitable. They were smart enough not only fast to correct mistakes, but also to re-assemble a huge country that has fallen into many pieces into a single whole, having won a fierce war with many opponents. And yes, they managed to achieve tremendous support from the population. So much so that after 20 years the entire Soviet people rose up to defend the Soviet state.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 22 March 2021 07: 56
        -7
        Quote: Dalny V
        Finland: de facto independent when the Bolsheviks came to power


        These are the dilettantes from history, like you, and confuse all cause and effect. There were NO forces in Finland that could defend their independence. All these "seims" could be dispersed with a stick and no one would have uttered a peep.
        The Bolsheviks are part of the big POWER, which distributed forces and convened new states at the expense of Russia and to the detriment of Russia.
        The fact that Prince Lvov recognized the independence of Poland, so by this he created a strong enemy for Russia.
        The artificial mess created by the Bolsheviks led the country to chaos and thousands of deaths. Russia responded to the arbitrariness of the Bolsheviks with HUNDREDS of peasant uprisings. This speaks to how much this power was "popular".


        Quote: Dalny V
        They were smart enough not only to quickly correct mistakes


        The Bolsheviks did not correct anything, but suppressed the Russian community by "collectivization".

        Quote: Dalny V
        And yes, they managed to achieve tremendous support from the population. So much so that after 20 years the entire Soviet people rose up to defend the Soviet state.


        do not lie, do not lie. The Russian people rose to the great war, because the Germans staged extermination of the Russians.
        1. Far B
          Far B 22 March 2021 08: 00
          +4
          The Bolsheviks are part of the big POWER, which distributed forces and convened new states at the expense of Russia and to the detriment of Russia
          Reptilians, overlaid, you bastards!
          don't lie, don't lie
          You persuade yourself, you cannot persuade in any way? Pichalka.
    2. gsev
      gsev 22 March 2021 11: 34
      +2
      Quote: Bar1
      Why did they help the eternal enemies of Russia, the Turks, instead of helping Greece.

      If the Bosphorus were in the hands of the Greeks, it would have been open to the British and French navies in the 1920s and 1930s. In this case, it would be difficult to avoid a new intervention.
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 22 March 2021 15: 37
    0
    And the author also does not take into account that after the end of the First World War, huge stocks of weapons, ammunition, ammunition were accumulated, which were rapidly losing market value, morally and technically obsolete ... That is what France, England and the United States supplied the White Guards (yes-a-aleco not free , and for part of the gold reserve of the Russian Empire from Kolchak), Yudenich, Denikin, Wrangel, Semyonov, Kolchak, White Czechs and others, and also armed Poland TWICE, in 1918 and in 1920 after the defeats organized by the Red Army. NOBODY supplied the Red Army from outside. Without this, no General Sikorsky could have performed his miracle on the Vistula even with Tukhachevsky's strategic mistakes.
  • lucul
    lucul 22 March 2021 06: 00
    -6
    The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.

    What are you? ))))
    Maybe Tukhachevsky didn’t have to go into Poland AT ALL, in order to "blow up the shake of the Flash G'evolution"?
    1. Far B
      Far B 22 March 2021 06: 14
      +3
      That is, Poland, having gained independence, calmly sat on the fifth point, did not bother anyone, did not interfere in the events of the Civil War on the territory of Russia, but here - on you! Evil Bolsheviks came and how can we win the lords! In short, the Poles were simply dragged into the war by force, otherwise they would have lived white and fluffy until 1939. So what do you think?
      1. lucul
        lucul 22 March 2021 06: 16
        -6
        So what do you think?

        In my opinion, it was possible to immediately conclude peace along the Curzon line, that is, along the line of the modern borders of Poland and Belarus.
        Not?
        1. Far B
          Far B 22 March 2021 06: 33
          0
          In my opinion, it was possible to immediately conclude peace along the Curzon line
          That is, virtually unconditionally agree to the terms of the Western powers. If this happened, then new conditions would follow, which would have to agree, then - new, and again, and again, and there is no end to this novel. In the end, it's good that the Bolsheviks didn't do it your way.
          1. lucul
            lucul 22 March 2021 06: 45
            -4
            then new conditions would follow, which would have to agree, then - new, and more, and more, and there is no end to this novel.

            Your logic is lame)))
            In the same way, they could set conditions
            then - new, and more, and more, and there is no end to this novel.

            and after the Riga Peace, no? ))))
            1. Far B
              Far B 22 March 2021 07: 20
              +1
              Not. It is you she is limping because you are confusing belligerent peace treaty (albeit very unprofitable) and unconditional obedience to third party requirements:
              On July 11, 1920, Great Britain sent a note to the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs G.V. Chicherin demanding to stop the offensive
              If the Bolsheviks had accepted Curzon's demands, they would in fact admit that England could dictate her will to them. And England, as you know, should not be allowed to dictate its will, it is too expensive.
      2. lucul
        lucul 22 March 2021 06: 47
        -4
        That is, Poland, having gained independence, calmly sat on the fifth point, did not bother anyone, did not interfere in the events of the Civil War on the territory of Russia, but here - on you! Evil Bolsheviks came and how can we conquer the lords!

        Poland itself offered peace along the Curzon line, didn't it? ))))
        1. Far B
          Far B 22 March 2021 07: 27
          +1
          Poland itself offered peace along the Curzon line, didn't it?
          Where, when, to whom ??? The Soviets actually sent England into a pedestrian erotic with her "mediation", inviting the Poles to apply directly for an armistice. But...
          Only on August 17, 1920, the Polish government agreed to send its delegates to the peace conference in Minsk. By this time, the Red Army suffered a heavy defeat at Warsaw. Although in Minsk Soviet representatives still defended the Curzon Line as the basis for the demarcation of the Soviet-Polish border, the Polish negotiators now flatly refused to recognize it.
          Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers! (from)
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich 22 March 2021 07: 59
        -6
        Quote: Dalny V
        in the events of the Civil War on Russian territory did not interfere

        of course not, you would have to know, finally, not an inch of the territory of Russia Poland did not fight and did not claim it: it fought in the territories of the STATES of the Ukrainian SSR and the LBSSR, recognized by the RSFSR
        1. Far B
          Far B 22 March 2021 08: 04
          +2
          And I wrote somewhere that Poland intermeddle in the territory of the RSFSR? I wrote - on Russian territoryAre there any claims to the fact that the territories of the Ukrainian SSR and LBSSR are part of the territory of the former Russian Empire, i.e., Russia (not the RSFSR!)?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 22 March 2021 08: 20
            -4
            Quote: Dalny V
            And I wrote somewhere that Poland intermeddle in the territory of the RSFSR? I wrote - on the territory of Russia.

            for me and for normal people, this is the territory of Russia.

            And for you Bolsheviks, this is now only the territory of the STATES of the Ukrainian SSR and LBSSR.

            Or are you against .... the decisions of the Bolsheviks ?! Against Ulyanov and K? belay request lol
            1. Far B
              Far B 22 March 2021 08: 29
              0
              this is for me and normal people
              Who do not consider the USSR as a single state? Thank you, neighing. You made my day.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 22 March 2021 10: 01
                -2
                Quote: Dalny V
                Thank you, neighing

                apparently oats are too much ... yes
                Quote: Dalny V
                You made my day.

                American -... Bolshevik. belay lol

                And yes, not for you, distributed 5 million km2 of Russian territory all kinds of turkey and ukraine, etc., robbed her to Odessa, Nikolaev, Kars, Uralsk and so on, who raped Russians into Ukrainians, who blew up the monuments of Borodino and the graves of her Heroes, - talk about ... a "single" state and about Russia: look out the window and see WHAT for "single" the state your idols have built and what scraps they left Russia.
    2. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 22 March 2021 06: 52
      +17
      Quote: lucul
      Maybe Tukhachevsky shouldn't have gotten into Poland AT ALL

      First, the Panovs reached Kiev, and then everything else. Colleague, teach materiel.
    3. apro
      apro 22 March 2021 10: 09
      +2
      Quote: lucul
      The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.

      What are you? ))))
      Maybe Tukhachevsky didn’t have to go into Poland AT ALL, in order to "blow up the shake of the Flash G'evolution"?

      Yes ... yes ... that's right ... at the same time and Kiev to the Poles to leave ... and recognize the border along the Dnieper.
    4. boris epstein
      boris epstein 22 March 2021 19: 25
      0
      There is no need to pervert the great Russian language. Yes, and Tukhachevsky was not a Jew, he was a nobleman, otherwise he would not have been an officer in the Life Guards regiment. And it was the Poles who started the Polish-Soviet war in 1918 and managed to occupy 3/4 of Belarus and half of the Ukraine with the help of local Petliurites. And the Wishlist were right up to Smolensk. And near Warsaw, the Red Army turned out to be not for political purposes, but crushing the Poles who wanted to restore Rzhech Pospolita at the expense of Russia. Or again, like the Ukrainians: "And what about the Poles?"
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 22 March 2021 06: 45
    -5
    Quote: Malyuta
    The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.
    But in 1939 the former border was completely and even
    more than restored.
    These events are documented by the historian Spitsin.
    And here's a little more about the Polish hyena.
    https://youtu.be/WI9uwKuw7pc

    The new Soviet state has been distributing land and population since the 17th year. To give 14 million of the population, it was possible to form five armies. It's not like fighting the whites with a tenfold superiority. And then, although they were annexed
    back, but the people had already tasted the delights of the market economy and were looking to the West. The British offered a completely reasonable compromise, but the ideas of a world revolution were firmly in the minds of the Jews. As a result, the land and population were lost, a huge indemnity was paid, which raised the economy of Poland
  • svp67
    svp67 22 March 2021 15: 16
    0
    Quote: Malyuta
    The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga.

    And here is the question. What a Soviet state in March 1921. It is still a long time before the USSR was created in December. And what legal relationship did the RSFSR have on those territories? Yes, not any. It turns out that the bargaining was in the lands of the Lithuanian-Belarusian and Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republics
  • apro
    apro 22 March 2021 04: 28
    +1
    Again, the name does not correspond to the content. The RSFSR was defeated in the war. There were no forces and means to change this, so the measure was forced, not voluntary. In the war with Poland, the Poles were just helped by the Russians, against the Reds, so the Russians helped the Poles to conquer the territories controlled by the Reds.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 08: 41
      -2
      Quote: apro
      Russians helped the Poles to conquer territories controlled by the Reds.

      Unfortunately, this idea did not reach everyone and with a great delay. Most of the time, for gentlemen officers, the Poles were worse than the Bolsheviks. Like the rest of the lovers to pull apart the one and indivisible.

      At the same time, it should be noted that the wind of freedom also greatly inflated the Panamas. Poland from sea to sea, this is the whole story. They didn't calculate a little.
      1. apro
        apro 22 March 2021 09: 58
        +2
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Unfortunately, this idea did not reach everyone and with a great delay.

        I understand that you regret that the Russians did not help the Poles in the conquest of territories ???
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Like the rest of the lovers to pull apart the one and indivisible.

        As Russian imperial general Manerheim. As Russian officer Bulak Balakovich.
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        At the same time, it should be noted that the wind of freedom also greatly inflated the Panamas. Poland from sea to sea, this is the whole story. They didn't calculate a little.

        You again regret that the Poles seized little and did not reach the Dnieper? Odessa? Yes ... the Russian approach.
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 22 March 2021 10: 19
          +2
          Quote: apro
          You again regret that the Poles seized little and did not reach the Dnieper? Odessa? Yes ... the Russian approach.

          You do not understand, "real patriots", they are even with the devil, if only against the communists. Vlasov, Krasnov, exarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Sergiy (Voskresensky), here is an example to follow from such characters.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 11: 10
          -1
          Quote: apro
          I understand that you regret that the Russians did not help the Poles in the conquest of territories ???

          I regret that all of Eastern Europe at the end of the 10s was moved by the mind. Alas, Pilsudski was no exception. His guilt for the coming catastrophe is immeasurable.
          Quote: apro
          As Russian imperial general Manerheim. As Russian officer Bulak Balakovich

          Yes of course. I remember that the discussion of His Excellency Nikolai Nikolaevich with His Excellency Gustav Karlovich on the topic of a goose is not a pig, among other similar discussions with other Excellencies, led to the failure of the whole case and the arrest of His Excellency Nikolai Nikolayevich by his nobility Stanislav Nikodimovich, whom you remember so by the way.
          Quote: apro
          You again regret that the Poles seized little and did not reach the Dnieper? Odessa? Yes ... the Russian approach.

          This is a good thing, of course, but not viable. The empire is too big a load and too big risks, the supporters of Mezhemorye did not really understand this. The concept of the German General Staff with an independent Baltic, BNR, UNR, Kuban, Caucasus is the only reasonable one. It didn't work out that time.

          By the way, since the conversation has already started. What does Odessa and Dnipro have to do with Russians?
          1. apro
            apro 22 March 2021 11: 21
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            I regret that all of Eastern Europe at the end of the 10s was moved by the mind

            This is God's punishment ... and the actions of the authorities are so. Everything was for the good.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Alas, Pilsudski was no exception.

            He acted for the good of Poland. What claims to him is a deliberate choice.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Yes of course.

            That is, the activities of a Russian general directed against the empire are normal. I understand you.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            It didn't work out that time.

            But now, to the great joy of the Russian patriots, it has developed what they were striving for during the civil war.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            By the way, since the conversation has already started. What does Odessa and Dnipro have to do with Russians?

            It's strange to hear this from a Russian patriot.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 11: 41
              0
              Quote: apro
              the actions of the authorities are so. everything was for the good.

              Perhaps the Finnish ones.
              Quote: apro
              He acted for the good of Poland. What are the claims to him ???

              The idea to grab also German lands proved to be extremely unsuccessful.
              Quote: apro
              That is, the activity of a Russian general directed against the empire is normal

              It depends on what. Mannerheim kept more Schubert waltzes and French rolls in Finland than remained in all of Soviet Russia. But Brusilov is a shame of his people. It is incredibly regretful that Comrade Yezhov did not have time.
              Quote: apro
              But it happened now

              Not quite.
              Quote: apro
              It's strange to hear this from a Russian patriot.

              Are you talking about me? There is an opinion that it is high time for Russian patriots to take care of their own home. Dnieper and Odessa will somehow not disappear without their attention.
              1. apro
                apro 22 March 2021 12: 26
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Perhaps the Finnish ones.

                You know better from the cellar.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The idea to grab also German lands proved to be extremely unsuccessful.

                Do not understand???
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                It depends on what

                This is exactly the main thing that the ass was warm.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Not quite

                Yes, there is still much to degrade.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                There is an opinion that it is high time for Russian patriots to take care of their own home.

                Only judging by the screams. They can not decide where their home is. Alaska. Warsaw. But they settle in London and different Paris. Along the way, they become citizens of these states.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 12: 37
                  +1
                  Quote: apro
                  Do not understand???

                  What did you not understand? Look at the borders of the Second Reich.
                  Quote: apro
                  the main thing was that the ass was warm

                  Are you talking about Brusilov? And the ass and the reinforced ration.
                  Quote: apro
                  there is still room for degradation

                  Always is.
                  Quote: apro
                  settling in London and various Paris. along the way, becoming citizens of these states.

                  Russia is a very large country, it is more convenient to love it from afar.
                  1. apro
                    apro 22 March 2021 13: 04
                    +1
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    What did you not understand? Look at the borders of the Second Reich.

                    I didn’t understand how this is to relate to Russian patriots.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Are you talking about Brusilov? And the ass and the reinforced ration.

                    He also defended the right of the people to speak their own language. And to develop. Unlike the Russian general Mannerheim, who carried out ethnic cleansing. And was essentially a separatist.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Always is.

                    And I see that there is a desire.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Russia is a very large country, it is more convenient to love it from afar.

                    This is in Russian.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 13: 16
                      -1
                      Quote: apro
                      how does this relate to Russian patriots

                      No way. Unless the Russian patriots then also had a hard time.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      preserved more Schubert waltzes and French rolls,

                      Quote: apro
                      carried out ethnic cleansing.

                      What to do, Schubert is not enough for everyone.
                      Quote: apro
                      was essentially a separatist.

                      The victorious separatists are the fathers of the nation and the founders of the state.
                      1. apro
                        apro 22 March 2021 13: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        No way. Unless the Russian patriots then also had a hard time.

                        Why would the Russian patriots very much even know how to cooperate with the natives. And civil and domestic clearly showed.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What to do, Schubert is not enough for everyone.

                        Yes ... Russian patriotism did not help. And the shoulder straps of the Russian general do not press.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The victorious separatists are the fathers of the nation and the founders of the state.

                        The main thing is to catch the moment in time and push past settings
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 13: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: apro
                        Russian patriots very much even know how to cooperate with the namts. and civil and domestic vividly showed.

                        And, well, yes, everyone knows how to cooperate with the Germans.
                        Quote: apro
                        Russian patriotism did not help. And the shoulder straps of the Russian general do not crush.

                        Not at all. There are rolls, Schubert is, balls, beauties, footmen, cadets - everything is there, Bolsheviks - no, I did everything right.
                        Quote: apro
                        The main thing is to catch the moment in time and push past settings

                        Yes of course. Not to swear allegiance to the Soviet government.
                      3. apro
                        apro 22 March 2021 13: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        There are rolls, Schubert is, balls, beauties, footmen, cadets - everything is there, Bolsheviks - no, I did everything right

                        And there are no Russians either.
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 14: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: apro
                        And there are no Russians either

                        Why is his Excellency Gustov Karlovich not Russian to you? Didn't come out like a skull?
                        Quote: apro
                        As I understand it, the Russian did not swear allegiance either.

                        Temporary? Why, he swore an oath.
                      5. apro
                        apro 22 March 2021 14: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Why is his Excellency Gustov Karlovich not Russian to you? Didn't come out like a skull?

                        During the civil war in Finland, ethnic cleansing took place. Russians were killed not only as Reds, but because they were Russians. Mannerheim is an ethnic Swede. But this does not play a role. He was brought up by the Russian world.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Temporary? Why did I swear

                        And did not fulfill its obligations. Is normal.
                      6. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 14: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: apro
                        During the civil war in Finland, ethnic cleansing took place. Russians were killed not only as Reds, but that they were Russians.

                        Wow, what a nuisance.

                        Here Alexey RA liked to post his memoirs on this topic. I once asked to clarify the source.
                        Source - applications of victims of looters and their families to the magistrate for compensation. Right away, in the 18th year.
                        Quote: apro
                        And didn’t fulfill my obligations.

                        Before the temporary ones? In the summer of the 17th, he was in no way the chief in the RI army, and the front commanders did nothing. In Finland, he appears in December, when Kerensky is already wandering around the dacha cooperatives between Petrograd and Estonia.
                      7. apro
                        apro 22 March 2021 14: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Wow, what a nuisance.

                        Yes ... nothing to say.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Before the temporary ones?

                        Before the Russian world.
              2. apro
                apro 22 March 2021 13: 46
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Yes of course. Not to swear allegiance to the Soviet government.

                As I understand it, the Russian did not swear allegiance either.
      2. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 22 March 2021 13: 30
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Are you talking about Brusilov? And the ass and the reinforced ration.

        Brusilov then what did not please you?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 14: 17
          +1
          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          Brusilov then what did not please you?

          Love him.
          Give up the shameful role in the service of the Polish lords and French usurers, lay down your arms dishonorable against your own people. Those who honestly and voluntarily went over to the side of Soviet power will not be punished. We guarantee a full amnesty to everyone who goes over to the side of Soviet power.

          Wrangel's army officers! The workers 'and peasants' government has extended its hand of reconciliation to you for the last time.

          Pravda, No. 202, September 12, 1920

          The appeal was signed by:

          Chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee M. Kalinin.
          Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars V. Ulyanov (Lenin).
          People's Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs L. Trotsky.
          Commander-in-chief of all armed forces of the Republic S. Kamenev.
          Chairman of the Special Conference under the Commander-in-Chief of all the armed forces of the Republic A. Brusilov.

          The historian S.V. Volkov gave such calculations

          under the Russian Wrangel Army, there were up to 300 000 military and civil servants, including up to 50 000 officers;
          up to 70 000 military personnel and employees were evacuated, of which approximately 30 000 officers;
          according to the guidelines approved by the Crimean authorities, all officers and officials of the military department, as well as soldiers of "colored units" were subject to destruction;
          according to data from Soviet sources, 52 000 people were executed;
          this figure is consistent with the number of people in the Russian army who could not or did not want to be evacuated and were assigned to the category to be destroyed.
          At the same time, the historian draws attention to the fact that the witnesses of the incident were so impressed by the scope of the killings that the figures of the people executed in 120 000 or even in 150 000 were indicated.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 10: 06
    +3
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    At the same time, it should be noted that the wind of freedom also greatly inflated the Panamas.

    Absolutely right. This success created a painful superiority complex. And away we go - demands to share African colonies, claims to neighbors, swollen ambitions, threats to "take their own", etc. They played along well with the Fuhrer by concluding a pact with him, which was not worth the paper on which it was written. But Lipski proudly declared that Poland "no longer needs France." And in 1939 these idiots were outraged that the French were not going to kick their ass for an "ally", pricking the German reservists in the Saar with bayonets.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 22 March 2021 11: 13
      0
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Absolutely right. This success created a painful superiority complex.

      Rather, it was a relapse ...
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 11: 46
      +1
      Yes.
      That the Czechs, that the Poles have done things. They could not deny themselves anything. Happiness cannot be built on someone else's grief.

      Especially in German.

      Sikorsky's government behaved smarter, but too late, too late.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 22 March 2021 10: 10
    -3
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Unfortunately, this idea did not reach everyone and with a great delay.

    you still know that the Poles SAVED the Reds in 1919 at the time when
    before the liberation of Moscow from the bandits, only a few days remained, concluding an armistice with them and allowing the transfer of Latvian and Estonian mercenaries against the Russian Army.

    the same thing happened in 1920 in the fight against the Russian Army in the Crimea.

    Russophobes sang in a united impulse against Russia.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 11: 47
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      you still know that the Poles SAVED the Reds in 1919 at the time when

      Naturally. The United and Indivisible was for the Poles an enemy worse than the Bolsheviks.
    2. Looking for
      Looking for 22 March 2021 16: 55
      -2
      Quote: Olgovich
      Latvian and Estonian mercenaries

      Name the source and announce the amount of monthly payments to these so-called mercenaries. If you can't, keep an eye on your broomstick.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 22 March 2021 08: 15
    +2
    Colleagues, it seems that the author was setting out a Western view of the Soviet-Polish war, and his own ending. To please readers ..
    1. apro
      apro 22 March 2021 10: 10
      +2
      Quote: Astra wild2
      To please readers ..

      That would be consistent with today's official view of history.
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 11: 20
      0
      Quote: Astra wild2
      Colleagues, it seems that the author was setting out a Western view of the Soviet-Polish war, and his own ending. To please readers ..

      As far as I understand, the Samsonov brand is so spattered with general negativity that the artel of “historians from God” decided that by changing Samsonov to Apukhtin, it would at once increase its authority in the eyes of the audience. But the nonsense is quite Samsonian. Whom did they decide to divorce? ))
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 March 2021 11: 28
        +1
        changing "Samsonov" to "Apukhtin"
        Apukhtin is a really existing individual. He simply writes "in the spirit of modern requirements" against the background of a depressive state.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 22 March 2021 18: 00
        0
        Probably.
  • tatra
    tatra 22 March 2021 08: 32
    0
    The comments under the article once again proved that all 103 years of the Soviet and post-Soviet periods on the territory of the USSR there is a "cold" Civil War between "red" and "white", and it will never end. Only here the "red" always had and still have FOR for their country and people, and for all these 103 years the "whites" had and are for their country and people only evil AGAINST the "red", AGAINST everything that they have done.
  • BAI
    BAI 22 March 2021 08: 35
    0
    In addition, Russia had to pay Poland 30 million gold rubles within a year.

    And apparently, not a ruble was paid at the same time. Because:
    Representatives of Poland's ruling Law and Justice Party said that Moscow must pay Warsaw reparations under the 1921 treaty. According to them, we are talking about the Riga Peace Treaty, on the basis of which Soviet Russia should have provide Poland with 30 million rubles in gold. Earlier, the Polish authorities raised the issue of reparations from the FRG, but the German Cabinet made it clear that it considers this issue closed. In Russia, the chances of Warsaw to receive any payments from Moscow were called zero.

    Polish parliamentarian Jan Mosinsky said that the Russian Federation is "the legitimate heir to Soviet Russia" and, therefore, should think about "what to do with the Riga Treaty." The deputy considers it fair to demand "to sit down at the table and talk about how to make these war reparations." Deputy Minister of Justice of Poland Patrick Yakiy agreed with Mosinsky's opinion
    1. apro
      apro 22 March 2021 10: 14
      0
      Quote: BAI
      therefore, one should think about “what to do with the Riga Treaty”.

      Which actually ceased to operate in 1939. and officially in 1946 after the conclusion of the USSR and Poland's treaty on border and friendship.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 09: 55
    +4
    What childish spontaneity:
    Why did Russia in 1921 give
    So I imagine the index finger thrust into the nostril to the second phalanx ...
    Yes, because, damn it, practically won the campaign was leaked to the Poles, child.
    The winner cuts the defeated one who is rightfully "strong in the moment" - what is there to weave lace?
    Poland, its protectorate of the empire, annexed in the 18th century by Catherine II?
    had to pay the former vassal significant reparations.

    how much arrogance. All the more humiliating for the heir to the former suzerain.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 22 March 2021 12: 54
      -2
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Yes, because, damn it, practically won the campaign was leaked to the Poles, child.

      what, in, "won" campaign? belay

      Ruined, devastated, dying of hunger and loss of the Bolshevik territory, where cannibalism was already in full swing, was opposed by the West with its overwhelming economic potential: defeat was inevitable: even if they took Warsaw with huge losses.

      They didn't want to stop: the goal was Europe ("over the corpse of White Poland."), Looking at the approaching "ryvolyutsiners" with no less fear than the Poles, who spat on the so-called. "People's Polish government of Dkherzhinsky", which the Bolsheviks dragged in a train for Poland.
  • wkat
    wkat 22 March 2021 10: 04
    0
    Again stories about their lands
    1. apro
      apro 22 March 2021 10: 39
      0
      Quote: wkat
      Again stories about their lands

      So there are plenty of Poles of these tales.
      1. wkat
        wkat 22 March 2021 12: 09
        -2
        They all, only some of them expose them as an absolute truth.
        1. apro
          apro 22 March 2021 12: 59
          0
          Quote: wkat
          only some

          Isn't ??? and the rest are not absolute ???
  • yehat2
    yehat2 22 March 2021 10: 08
    +1
    I just don't understand one thing - why after the Polish company Tukhachevsky was not punished in any way.
    After all, it was his rather strange decisions near Warsaw that led to colossal damage to the country.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 22 March 2021 10: 12
    -1
    "According to various estimates, about 130 thousand Red Army soldiers were taken prisoner, of whom about 60 thousand died in the camps because of the inhuman conditions of detention." And after that, the Poles talk about massive repressions among Polish officers. It must be remembered that Comrade Stalin was a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the First Horse. He had a good memory. And those of the captured Polish officers who were involved in the death of the captured Red Army soldiers got theirs.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 22 March 2021 10: 23
      +2
      Quote: tank64rus
      "According to various estimates, about 130 thousand Red Army soldiers were taken prisoner, of whom about 60 thousand died in the camps because of the inhuman conditions of detention." And after that, the Poles talk about massive repressions among Polish officers. It must be remembered that Comrade Stalin was a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the First Horse. He had a good memory. And those of the captured Polish officers who were involved in the death of the captured Red Army soldiers got theirs.

      How did he define their involvement?
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 22 March 2021 10: 50
      +5
      Quote: tank64rus
      It must be remembered that Comrade Stalin was a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the First Horse.

      do not remember this nonsense. Stalin was a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the South-Western Front.
      Quote: tank64rus
      And those of the captured Polish officers who were involved in the death of the captured Red Army soldiers got theirs.

      That is, the vengeful Stalin ordered to spank officers in Katyn because of the events of twenty years ago? Did you serve the dish cold, so to speak? Seriously?
  • vladcub
    vladcub 22 March 2021 10: 36
    +3
    "after the defeat of the Soviet troops of Marshal Tukhachevsky," but nothing that: "The personal military rank of Marshal was introduced in 1935"? In August 1920, Tukhachevsky could not possibly have been a marshal.
    It is advisable to know at least a little bit of your history
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 22 March 2021 11: 30
      +1
      It is advisable to know at least a little bit of your history
      And what is the story for the author "own"?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 22 March 2021 19: 11
        +1
        Fig knows him: "someone else's soul of acceptance"
  • Constanty
    Constanty 22 March 2021 11: 25
    -2
    Why Russia in 1921 gave part of its lands to Poland


    One sentence and two lies.

    The Riga Peace Treaty was signed between Poland and the RSFSR and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

    The RSFSR, commonly known as Soviet Russia, had as much in common with Russia as a chair with an electric chair. I will express the thesis that for the Bolsheviks, Russia (real) was a worse and dangerous enemy than Poland. The Bolshevik offensive ended in defeat, the battle on the Neman was a success for Poland, and Wrangel, who represented the interests of real Russia, posed an increasing threat to the Bolsheviks.

    Moreover, Soviet Russia, Russia did not give up anything in the Riga Peace Treaty, because the lands that were within the borders of Poland according to it were lands taken from Poland during the partitions.
    The Soviet delegation wanted to make much greater concessions to Poland (just read Ioffe's memoirs), the Dąbskiego delegation, min. decided not to include Minsk in the borders of the Republic of Poland.

    In general, with regard to territorial settlements, Poland abandoned the lands of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth located east of the border established in Riga, and Soviet Russia and Ukraine abandoned claims to lands west of the established border line.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 March 2021 11: 55
      +4
      Quote: Constanty
      Moreover, Soviet Russia, Russia did not give up anything in the Riga Peace Treaty, because the lands that were within the borders of Poland according to it were lands taken from Poland during the partitions.

      More importantly, these territories were included in the BSSR and the UPR / Ukrainian SSR, which the RSFSR recognized as independent states. The USSR has not yet been formed.
      1. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 13: 53
        0
        In general, H. Wells described the situation in Soviet Russia and the position of the Bolsheviks at that period and moment quite objectively in his "Russia in the Dark". This is exactly 1920 ... In addition, ALL opponents of the Bolsheviks then already had their own problems "above the roof". Both internal and external ... And the "winner" Poland was no exception here. After all, its "miracle on the Vistula", when objectively examined, is a more natural consequence of the military and political adventures of Trotsky and Tukhachevsky than the result of the military strategic "insights" of the gentry or its ANTAN-tov curators. Or, in general, the politics of the Bolsheviks, as such. JV Stalin, in Pravda, in the series of articles "The Polish Front," which just appeared in the period described, argues very well that "campaigns on Warsaw" are unnecessary and harmful to the cause.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 22 March 2021 15: 12
          -1
          And the "winner" Poland was no exception here. After all, her "miracle on the Vistula", when objectively examined, is a more natural consequence of the military and political adventures of Trotsky and Tukhachevsky than the result of the military strategic "insights" of the gentry


          And not sometimes, it was not the result of Stalin's disobedience near Lvov? Tukhachevsky blamed Joseph Stalin for the defeat of the Russian troops in the Battle of Warsaw. He argued that Kamenev's directive on the transfer of the 1st Cavalry Army and the 12th Army at his disposal had just been blocked by Stalin.

          And on an operational scale, the breaking of the Bolshevik codes by Lieutenant Jan Kovalevsky. Thus, the maneuver of the Polish counteroffensive was successful, in particular, thanks to the knowledge of the plans and orders of the Soviet side and the ability to use them. knowledge of the Polish command: “the enemy himself accurately informed our command about his moral and material condition, about his numbers and losses, about his movements, about victories and defeats achieved, about his intentions and orders, about the location of troops. his teams and areas of deployment of his divisions, brigades and regiments ”.
          1. ABC-schütze
            ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 16: 01
            +1
            And not sometimes, it was not the result of Stalin's disobedience near Lvov? Tukhachevsky blamed Joseph Stalin for the defeat of the Russian troops in the Battle of Warsaw. He argued that Kamenev's directive on the transfer of the 1st Cavalry Army and the 12th Army at his disposal had just been blocked by Stalin. [Quote = Konstanty] [quote] No ... Stalin's "disobedience" was completely justified precisely in the military strategic plan. In Poland, with its "Sovietization" through a military defeat, in general, there was no political and military sense for the Bolsheviks and Soviet Russia. And Stalin proved this quite clearly in the aforementioned series of articles. For the "military" retention of even defeated Poland, Soviet Russia simply did not have the necessary (political, economic, military and human resources). And in Poland itself, among the population, there were far more active opponents of Soviet power (and Russia "as such") than its supporters. With Poland, the Bolsheviks were conducting peace negotiations BEFORE Tukhachevsky's "throw" on Warsaw. By their provocative adventures (including propaganda), they thwarted the truce with Poland. The adventurer Tukhachevsky could have "asserted" anything. But even his hypothetical military victory near Warsaw would not have led to a "victory" for Poland. And it would become for Soviet Russia, a debilitating, long-term and overwhelming problem. And a reminder of the well-known fact of breaking the cipher correspondence of the Soviet command to the Poles is a PURE situational factor. He only aggravated the consequences of the adventurous military plans and actions of Tukhachevsky and Trotsky in a particular situation. But it would not have become a decisive factor in Poland's "victory" over Soviet Russia if the latter, at the "conceptual" level, had set itself the task of a half-year military defeat and conquest of Poland. The question is, let me remind you once again, what was THEN the Bolsheviks to do with this "Poland"? .. And it was Stalin who clearly and concretely showed, there is absolutely nothing ...
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 22 March 2021 16: 15
              -1
              According to you, Stalin even sabotaged Tukhachevsky's actions in order to demonstrate the superiority of "socialism in one country" over Trotsky's "world revolution".
              Only Poland was not an end in itself - it was an obstacle for revolutionary Germany, which, according to the ideologists of communism, was necessary for the success of the revolution.

              And this open sabotage and actions to the detriment of the Soviet troops went unpunished by Stalin. Perhaps this was the explanation for the absence of punishment for Tukhachevsky - no one was interested in looking for guilt - he could have lost too much
              1. ABC-schütze
                ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 22: 49
                0
                Stalin's arguments about the harmfulness of any Bonapartist plans and actions to bring a revolution to Poland "on bayonets" are clearly stated in the series of his article in Pravda that I mentioned. I have absolutely nothing to add to them. The adventurism of Tukhachevsky's intentions and actions is clearly confirmed by his orders on the Western Front (No. 1423, dated July 02, 1920, and No. 1847, dated August 20, 1920). Just a couple of quotes from the first ... "Through the corpse of white Poland lies the path to a world fire. On bayonets we will carry happiness and peace to working mankind! ..." And now, open the materials of the 9th Congress of the RCP (April 1920). The official policy of the Bolsheviks is the transition from "fighting on the military front" to "fighting on the labor front." Lenin (the leader of the Bolsheviks, after all ...) IS COMPLETELY OPEN, in the FINAL REPORT he recognizes "peace (with the capitalists), from the point of view of the WORLDWIDE HISTORICAL SCALE, of course, is possible ..." Try to find there something similar to the one given above " the revolutionary "clamor of Tukhachevsky ... The main tasks are to finish off Wrangel, reduce the army, form labor armies and are engaged in the restoration of the country destroyed by the war and its development. ALL!! What and where is the "world revolution" with the accompanying "fire" and "bayonets" here? ..
              2. ABC-schütze
                ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 23: 07
                0
                Excuse me, why did you mention "revolutionary Germany"? .. Back in January 1919, the local bourgeoisie firmly crushed it. A year and a half before the "jerks" of the adventurer Tukhachevsky "to the West." Through the aforementioned "corpse of White Poland". The communist rebellion, local in scale, took place in March 1921, when the Peace of Riga had already been signed and for a loud designation - the "revolution" did not pull at all ...
            2. boris epstein
              boris epstein 22 March 2021 16: 26
              +1
              Well, firstly, the decision not to transfer the 1st Cavalry to Tukhachevsky was made not by a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the front, Stalin, but by the front commander, Yegorov. Secondly, in order to transfer the 1st Cavalry, it first had to be withdrawn from the fighting and replaced with rifle divisions. Thirdly, it needed to be replenished with personnel, horse personnel, weapons, ammunition. And this is far from one day's business. Fourthly, it had to be transferred from Lvov to Warsaw, which is also not close. And there was no time.
      2. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 14: 10
        0
        And what is the point, in general, to mention some "borders of Poland" if in this state entity, as such, before the mentioned "divisions" there was never state and political unity? .. And the process of internal squabble of gentry was continuously going on, accompanied, besides, operetta inflated foreign policy ambitions? .. Alas, Poland's neighbors, one way or another, were able to successfully overcome their internal strife. And, as a result, they built their sovereign states and, in an international treaty way, in the format of the legal norms in force at that time, legalized their borders. And the hysterical and ambitious gentry could not do this (create a unified state) in the end. As a result, Poland lost its statehood ...
    2. Unknown
      Unknown 22 March 2021 14: 55
      +4
      Quote: Constanty
      a growing threat to the Bolsheviks was posed by Wrangel, who represented the interests of real Russia

      Was it Wrangel who represented the interests of Russia? What is the question? What kind of Russia did all the leaders of the white movement see without exception? This was seen by Wrangel .....) Recognize all the obligations of Russia and its cities in relation to France with priority and payment of interest on interest. 2) France will convert all Russian debts and a new 6,5% loan with partial annual repayment over 35 years. 3) Interest payments and annual repayments are guaranteed by: a) transfer to France of the right to operate all railways of European Russia; b) the transfer to France of the right to levy customs and port duties in all ports of the Black and Azov Seas; c) providing France with a surplus of grain in Ukraine and the Kuban region; d) placing at the disposal of France 75% of oil and gasoline production; e) transfer of 1/4 of the coal mined in the Donetsk region; Items b), c), e) enter into force immediately upon the occupation of the corresponding territories by the troops of General Wrangel. 4) Under the Russian ministries of finance, trade and industry, French financial and commercial offices will be established in the future .. "

      Source: https://fishki.net/3006317-dogovor-mezhdu-vrangelem-i-francuzskim-pravitelystvom.html © Fishki.net Savior of the fatherland, where is his country !? Clever people who reproach the Bolsheviks for the collapse of R.I. , for all they do not want to admit at all that to ruin and
      Empire began with F.R., the outskirts began to scatter, and its end was a matter of time. Under what slogan should all the outskirts be assembled? One and indivisible? It will not work, the local princes, the bourgeoisie and the national intelligentsia, who have already tasted the power, will not give it. Under the banner of monarchism? A cross has been put on the monarchy in the form that coexisted. It must be admitted that only the Bolsheviks had an ideology of internationalism that suited all the peoples of the former empire. Under it, the gathering of the country began, personnel focused on the Union were selected. The country has actually been at war since the age of 14, it was not possible to fight further, people were tired. It is necessary to build a peaceful life, build an economy, conduct general education, there is no end to the work. Everything flows, everything changes, the time will come, we will act according to the circumstances.
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 22 March 2021 13: 41
    +1
    I believe that the author's assertion that the power of the Bolsheviks, in 1921, "could have fallen at any moment" is a clear, emotional inflection that distorts the objective perception of the situation in Russia and "around it" at that time. Well, then there was no longer an external or internal, anti-Bolshevik military, political force capable of overthrowing Soviet power. Although, outside of Red Russia, the political enemies of the Bolsheviks were then ABSOLUTELY ALL external players. That on the part of the ANTANTA interventionists, that on the part of the former "German" invaders, that on the part of the United States or Japan. They could and did bite Red Russia, but there is no longer any "gnawing" ... And the internal criminal-counter-revolutionary revolts (with adjoining them, at the initial stage, a significant part of the dissatisfied peasantry) were territorially, temporarily, organizationally and politically) scattered, and in the worst case, they threatened a regional complication of the situation, but in no way wrecked the country and the power of the Bolsheviks.
  • Richard
    Richard 22 March 2021 14: 00
    +2
    Riga Treaty of 1921


    1. Richard
      Richard 22 March 2021 14: 13
      +4
      results of the Riga agreement
      (materials from the newspaper "Izvestia" for 1921)
      March:

      November


      1. Constanty
        Constanty 22 March 2021 15: 19
        -1
        There is a very real anecdote. In Pravda there is no news, in Izvestia there is no truth.
  • bandabas
    bandabas 22 March 2021 15: 09
    0
    There were problems. Later they managed to return the lost. Now we are losing further. In economics.
  • Looking for
    Looking for 22 March 2021 16: 36
    0
    I did not see the answer to the question. It was included in the title of the article. So WHY ??? !!
  • Igor Litvin
    Igor Litvin 22 March 2021 20: 19
    0
    If inaccurate - correct me:
    Polish Foreign Minister - Jozef Beck in 1935 in the League of Nations officially announced that Poland refuses to respect human rights. This concerned, of course, Belarusians and Ukrainians in the occupied territories. Therefore, one should not be surprised that in 1939. Soviet tank crews were greeted with apples and flowers. Especially after the Skidel execution.
  • SANITAR LESA
    SANITAR LESA 14 May 2021 21: 14
    0
    instead of the Belarusian territories given to the Poles, they later "slaughtered" the primordially Russian Vitebsk and other territories ... "The new Soviet state had no other choice but to conclude the Peace of Riga." they will also acquit in half a century, for example, Gorbachev and Yeltsin ...