"As a temporary measure": American AH-64 Apache helicopters received an Israeli Spike NLOS missile

The American Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter has received an Israeli Spike Non-Line-Of-Sight (NLOS) guided missile as a temporary weapons... This is reported by flightglobal.com with reference to the press service of the US Army.

According to the portal, the Israeli Spike NLOS missile has been adopted as a "long-range weapon" for AH-64 Apache helicopters. However, it is emphasized that this is a temporary option, then the United States intends to use a rocket of its own design on helicopters, but with characteristics like Spike NLOS.

The decision to adopt the rocket into service was made after successful tests, in which a Spike NLOS rocket launched from an AH-64 Apache helicopter successfully hit a stationary target at a distance of 32 km.

This weapon can hit targets at four times the range of current Apache ammunition.

- stated in the command of the US Army.

It was reported back in 64 that the US military is testing the Spike Non-Line-Of-Sight (NLOS) guided missile as a new weapon for the AH-2019E helicopter. Tests began in Israel, where the Americans observed the use of Spike NLOS from Israeli AH-64 Delta helicopters. After that, the series of tests was continued in the United States.

It is emphasized that the Spike NLOS will not replace the Hellfire missile, which has a range of approximately 8 kilometers. The US Army wants to keep alternative weapons.

Comments

[Dread]

"As a temporary measure":
American AH-64 Apache helicopters received an Israeli Spike NLOS missile ...
Israel is in mourning, and here friends do not recognize the obvious. Not everything is visible as it really is!

[APASUS]

Quote: Dread

Israel in mourning

Israel has arrived, and it is not yet known how temporary this missile is

[Kaman]

A very interesting story of the adoption of this missile into service. During the anti-terrorist operation in Gaza in 2014, Israel ran out of stock of Helfire missiles, Barack Hussein Obama, wishing to help his fellow believers, refused to supply Israel with missiles. Israel was forced to urgently "on the knee" adapt for Apaches and Spike NLOS drones. This decision turned out to be so successful that it worked for the Americans as well.

[dauria]

This decision turned out to be so successful that it worked for the Americans as well.

32 km is not just a good solution. This is something that can restore the value of the attack helicopters to their former value. In the conditions of air defense of the leading edge, 10-12 km to the target is already on the verge of a foul for the helicopter. A little hesitated in time - play the funeral march.
Jews are really great. They were the first to cross the 11 km line of missiles.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: APASUS

and to what extent this rocket is temporary is not yet known

That's right.
There is nothing more permanent than temporary.

[Flooding]

Quote: APASUS

Israel has arrived, and it is not yet known how temporary this missile is

especially since its production was planned in the United States, at the facilities of Lockheed Martin in Alabama.
So you can take your time to develop your own alternative.
PS
but in Oleg Granovsky's LiveJournal I found the following

According to the publication "Haaretz" dated 19.01.20, we are talking about the purchase of missiles in the amount of up to 60 million dollars. Moreover, "Haaretz" writes about the price of the rocket at $ 100,000 and the purchase of 2-4 missiles for each of the 300 available AH-64E Apache Guardian.

so it's not a fact that the localization of production, which was written about in 2019, will be implemented

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: APASUS

Quote: Dread

Israel in mourning

Israel has arrived, and it is not yet known how temporary this missile is

Everything in this world is temporary. They will develop something better and replace it. The usual process.

[Pandiurin]

If this missile is "certified" not only for helicopters that are in service with the United States and Israel, it will also be purchased in other countries.
And even if the United States later makes an "analogue", it is not a fact that everything will switch to the American version.

Moreover, the difference in range of 8 km and 32 km is very significant.

[shahor]

Quote: Pandiurin

Moreover, the difference in range of 8 km and 32 km is very significant.

The difference is not only in the range, but also in the method of guidance. The Hellfire's active radar head and the IR optoelectronic head are on Spike. Both have their pros and cons. Combined application can significantly expand the conditions of use and the range of tasks to be solved.

[ironic]

But the speed is also different.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Pandiurin

And even if the United States later makes an "analogue", it is not a fact that everything will switch to the American version.

It seems like the word "will do" should be quoted.

[zwlad]

It is interesting how the target designation for this missile was carried out.

[OgnennyiKotik]

The UAV will carry out search and target designation.

[Yujanin]

Approximately so

[OgnennyiKotik]

NLOS is temporary pending the results of the Long-Range Precision Munition (LRPM) project. All this work is being carried out within the framework of a new strategy for breaking through ground-based air defense, it is called ALE. There will be new helicopters, new missiles and the main focus on new multi-functional UAVs. Northrop makes drones based on the Hero-400, in collaboration with the Israeli company UVision. They are launched from helicopters, guides from hellfires are suitable for this.
These works will lead to the fact that the helicopter will be capable of destroying air defense systems, outside the coverage area of ​​ground-based radars, even theoretical direct radio visibility. Excluding factors impairing visibility.

[alexmach]

The Spike NLOS rocket launched from the AH-64 Apache helicopter successfully hit a stationary target at a distance of 32 km

Hmm .. and when our helicopters tested long-range products on helicopters, there was just a discussion about "why a helicopter is this?"

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

When and what products were tested on Russian helicopters?

the discussion broke out on the topic "why is a helicopter like this."

But the discussion is sane anyway. For over-the-horizon launch of anti-tank missiles, you can find a better carrier than attack helicopters.

[Your stranger]

71 kg in TPK, and 35 km range,
They can put such rockets on drones,
The armor will be taken out, and the beech will not be healthy

[3danimal]

What are you talking about: The shell cannot be "taken out".
He himself must shoot down all the missiles. In theory..

[3danimal]

There are questions about the Spyke NLOS radar visibility: it has a very large plumage (in comparison with the Hellfire). And the more noticeable you are, the easier it is to intercept you

[Your stranger]

Intercept Spike?

[3danimal]

By analogy with intercepting MLRS missiles. And here the speed is noticeably lower

[Your stranger]

Is there a video of how the torus knocks down the rszo hail?

[3danimal]

Did not met. But in theory it is possible.

[Your stranger]

In theory, you can wear trousers over your head.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: 3danimal

his plumage is very large

It is made of radio-absorbing composites, Spike's EPR is minimal.

[Gavrohs]

here is the full video - we multiply the second by the speed, and there is definitely not 32 km increased by 10 km compared to the previous version!

[Foul skeptic]

here is the full video - we multiply the second by the speed, and there is definitely not 32 km

Multiply 246 seconds by 130 m / s)))

[Gavrohs]

so, what is next,? This is such a speed, only at the final stage of the flight, most of the time the rocket flies 170 m s-180 m s! Multiply

[Foul skeptic]

This is such a speed, only at the final stage of the flight, most of the time the rocket flies 170 m s-180 m s!

The main section of the rocket's flight is horizontal, with a constant engine operation. In the final section, in the area of ​​capture of the target by the seeker, the rocket begins to dive. Here this is a conventional term that does not mean an angle of inclination of the trajectory of more than 30 degrees, it simply means that gravity begins to help, and not interfere with, movement. And then the speed gains up to 190 m / s.

[xorek]

Everything is temporary, more often it turns into permanent ... Moreover, if these are supplies from Israel .. The Amers have not yet understood this, the trillion-dollar military budget needs to be cut, especially since Biden came to power .. They will weld well!

[Emil Azeri]

Depending on the trajectory and altitude of the launch from the turntables, the NLOS (II) range can exceed 32 km.
Yes, the flight speed is at least twice less than the Hellfire, but this rocket in the second version is already super smart, it can receive target designation even from a UAV. This is not speed, but the technological qualities of this rocket ahead.
Will destroy any Russian air defense system, while remaining undetected by their radars.
Only a few countries have this super "smart-ass" ammunition in service with their turntables.

[Dread]

Quote: Emil Azeri

Destroy any Russian air defense system, staying undetected by their radars.

Strategist - don't write your "children's stories" not knowing the characteristics of the air defense systemstanding on armament of Russia!

[3danimal]

There are precedents for the destruction of Russian-made air defense systems. They are trying to explain them somehow, but there is an indisputable fact: any air defense system can, at least, be overloaded and destroyed.

[Emil Azeri]

[Revolver]

And why in America cries like “once in a beer hall the guys told me that they crucified God a long time ago” and “stole, I know, they all the bread of the past year's harvest from the people” are not heard. © V. Vysotsky

[Until Ger]

Pale of Settlement in America
did not have @ )))

[Emil Azeri]

There is a faster rocket at IAI called Lahat, only the range is only 10 km when launched from a helicopter, according to other sources up to 13 km.
About a year ago, Rafael presented a commercial with the installation of new Spike ER IIs on helicopters, the missile's flight range was 16 km, when launched from ground-based installations, the same rocket flies 10 km.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Emil Azeri

There is a faster rocket at IAI called Lahat, only the range is only 10 km when launched from a helicopter, according to other sources up to 13 km.
About a year ago, Rafael presented a commercial with the installation of new Spike ER IIs on helicopters, the missile's flight range was 16 km, when launched from ground-based installations, the same rocket flies 10 km.

Lahat is not an ATGM, but a TUR. As far as I remember, they were supplied to Azerbaijan, in addition to India, but in a modification for a helicopter container they were installed on the Mi-17.

[Emil Azeri]

Aron, this photo is still the installation process, but then they did not install Lahat on these helicopters (these are MO helicopters) Rafael did it instead, installing all the equipment from the Spike complex, and NLOS missiles. So the army aviation received the Spike complexes.

And we got Lahat helicopters from the GPS (they are green), I was in the cockpit of one of these helicopters, the GPS at the exhibition, I even talked to the commander of this helicopter, he didn't want to say anything too much about equipment, he said "no comment."
But the OES MOSP-3000D was fixed under the helicopter, and launchers with the inscription IAI (Lahat) on the wings. Answering the question, he said that yes, this is Lahat, and the flight range is 10 km. Nothing else. And he gave me a seat in the place of the co-pilot, purely for a photo.

[Professor]

Quote: Emil Azeri

There is a faster rocket at IAI called Lahat, only the range is only 10 km when launched from a helicopter, according to other sources up to 13 km.
About a year ago, Rafael presented a commercial with the installation of new Spike ER IIs on helicopters, the missile's flight range was 16 km, when launched from ground-based installations, the same rocket flies 10 km.

Spike is fire-forget. Backlighting is optional. Moreover, UFO means shooting out of line of sight. The helicopter does not even need to jump for a shot.

[Emil Azeri]

Quote: professor

Quote: Emil Azeri

There is a faster rocket at IAI called Lahat, only the range is only 10 km when launched from a helicopter, according to other sources up to 13 km.
About a year ago, Rafael presented a commercial with the installation of new Spike ER IIs on helicopters, the missile's flight range was 16 km, when launched from ground-based installations, the same rocket flies 10 km.

Spike is fire-forget. Backlighting is optional. Moreover, UFO means shooting out of line of sight. The helicopter does not even need to jump for a shot.

Well, yes, we know how the spike works, and what "Non Line Of Sight" means, and I have never said that this rocket needs illumination.
About "You don't even need to jump a helicopter" - I didn't quite understand what it was about

[Professor]

Quote: Emil Azeri

About "You don't even need to jump a helicopter" - I didn't quite understand what it was about

It is not necessary to see the target before firing when substituting for air defense.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Emil Azeri

Aron, this photo is still the installation process, but then they did not install Lahat on these helicopters (these are MO helicopters) Rafael did it instead, installing all the equipment from the Spike complex, and NLOS missiles. So the army aviation received the Spike complexes.

And we got Lahat helicopters from the GPS (they are green), I was in the cockpit of one of these helicopters, the GPS at the exhibition, I even talked to the commander of this helicopter, he didn't want to say anything too much about equipment, he said "no comment."
But the OES MOSP-3000D was fixed under the helicopter, and launchers with the inscription IAI (Lahat) on the wings. Answering the question, he said that yes, this is Lahat, and the flight range is 10 km. Nothing else. And he gave me a seat in the place of the co-pilot, purely for a photo.

Thank. Very interesting.

[Zaurbek]

According to the portal, the Israeli Spike NLOS missile has been adopted as a "long-range weapon" for AH-64 Apache helicopters. However, it is emphasized that this is a temporary option, then the United States intends to use a rocket of its own design on helicopters, but with characteristics like Spike NLOS.


Most likely they will offer to sell a license or buy a manufacturer. But this is Israel's success anyway.

[Azimuth]

The best anti-tank missile to date. Due to the long launch range, or rather the ultra-long range, the Apache survivability increases. That is, the output is an excellent system, taking into account the characteristics and capabilities of the rocket, and the characteristics and capabilities of the carrier.
Due to the combined guidance system of the ATGM Spike NLOS, the Apache operator can rely on external reconnaissance data and launch on a target that is not initially observed by means of on-board detection systems. At the same time, I repeat, the launch range allows him not only to survive, but rather confidently destroy air defense systems of a small radius - ZU / ZSU / SAM. In short, a dangerous anti-tank system, which can very quickly appear on any sector of the front within the Apache combat radius, move along the front and in depth, confidently fight not only with tanks, but also with air defense systems, and other various targets.

I think the Americans are cunning talking about their own development. Judging by experience, for example, a single FN MAG machine gun, a manual FN Minimi, a Piranha armored personnel carrier from Movag (in the Stryker States), a Beretta pistol, an ASRAAM air defense system, etc., they will tilt Israel and deploy licensed production of a modified version.
The combined fire-and-forget guidance system and the ability to control the missile at any stage of the flight, with such a launch range, is much more efficient than the American fire-and-forget missiles. Having experience and having received new ones in the process of testing, the Americans cannot but understand this.

It is a pity that such systems are not even foreseen in our country.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Azimuth

they will tilt Israel and start licensed production of the modified version.

So it goes without saying, otherwise they will not buy.

Quote: Azimuth

I think the Americans are cunning talking about their own development.

They are not cunning, there is a Long-Range Precision Munition (LRPM) program. They are not satisfied with the spike speed. They want transonic. Own it means on their money and the result will belong to them, and what roots of the contractor will not matter Rafael or BAE will be able to participate in the competition without any problems. You need a legal entity in the states, production is also located in the United States and approval for participation in military programs.

[Azimuth]

By the way, although you deny, but as a minmum you are a pro-Azerbaijani comrade Tell me, tell me why the Azerbaijanis did not equip their Mi-24 / -35 helicopters with these missiles?
At a minimum, this would allow them to use attack helicopters more intensively, more efficiently and with minimal risks, and they were practically not visible due to ATGMs with a launch range in the zone of MANPADS damage and the presence of a large number of MANPADS in the Armenians.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Above, they wrote:

Quote: Emil Azeri

Aron, this photo is still the installation process, but then they did not install Lahat on these helicopters (these are MO helicopters) Rafael did it instead, installing all the equipment from the Spike complex, and NLOS missiles. So the army aviation received the Spike complexes.

And we got Lahat helicopters from the GPS (they are green), I was in the cockpit of one of these helicopters, the GPS at the exhibition, I even talked to the commander of this helicopter, he didn't want to say anything too much about equipment, he said "no comment."
But the OES MOSP-3000D was fixed under the helicopter, and launchers with the inscription IAI (Lahat) on the wings. Answering the question, he said that yes, this is Lahat, and the flight range is 10 km. Nothing else. And he gave me a seat in the place of the co-pilot, purely for a photo.

Today there is a new video about that war, from 1:50 the spikes work.


A lot of information is classified, only by snatches one can guess what was really there. It is customary here to belittle the Armenians, with which I strongly disagree. They were prepared, courageous, adequately armed. It is all the more interesting how Azerbaijan opened up its defense.
I am interested in new technologies, new tactics, new ideas. Turkey / Azerbaijan use them, I am amazed at what leap Turkey has made over the past two decades, it is a full-fledged regional power.
Telegram has a channel Russian Orientalist, I highly recommend
https://t.me/russ_orientalist

[Azimuth]

I read about Lahat on the Mi-8 / -17, and there is also an article with many comments.
The question about Spikes and Mi-24 / -35 attack helicopters, somewhere from the middle of the war in Karabakh, I subscribed to many channels, but I have never seen Crocodiles with Spikes or Mi-8 / -17 among Azerbaijanis even at the parade, and so more cadres with their participation in the war.
There are launches from Israeli 4x4 armored vehicles. Desert Cats are on the Pipe, there are none from helicopters.

Curiously, I will search, but do the Israelis themselves have Spike UFOs on their Apaches? ...

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Azimuth

Curiously, I will search, but do the Israelis themselves have Spike UFOs on their Apaches?

Yes, of course there is. They don't give birth to new ones. Here is:

Quote: Azimuth

Question about Spikes and attack helicopters Mi-24 / -35

I also did not see it, there were 1-2 videos of the Mi-24 being used, but only with the NAR.
I can guess. The Mi-8/17 is the best option for a relatively cheap upgrade, everything is hung on the pylons the same as on the drummer, there is a lot of space for equipment inside. On the third crew member, you can hang smart weapons control or make a separate place for the weapon operator, but at least 10 places. Where should the equipment be installed on the Mi-24? Is there a reserve of energy and space? Who will be in charge? There you need to redo the floor of the helicopter. Expensive and pointless.
In general, the Mi-8 is a masterpiece of the Mil KB. The helicopter will not lose its relevance for the next 20 years. The best option for many weapons systems, electronic warfare, communications, etc.

[Azimuth]

Quite an interesting video, for the first time I saw that Polonaises were also used.

[OgnennyiKotik]

It is interesting to know about the electronic warfare systems that were used, but it will not be very soon or we will never know at all. It looks like they have a strict ban on information about it.
Here is an interview with the commander of the Armenian special forces:

Interesting for me: 15 minutes about electronic warfare, about headphones 31 minutes

[3danimal]

We got a ready-made, fully worked out analogue of Hermes, with a longer range (25-30 km versus 15-20 km of the Hermes-A aviation version.)
And even better if it is a version with a thermal imaging seeker. The Spike NLOS caliber (170mm) also increases the power of the warhead, in comparison with the Hermes-A (130mm).
Apparently, there shouldn't be any problems with the volume of supplies.

[Phoenix]

"The rocket has an average speed on the trajectory: 130-180 m / s" ... An easy target for Thors. It will be unpleasant, of course, to fight off missiles without being able to hit the carrier. On the other hand, in 4 minutes that the rocket flies at 30 km - at the command "air" the armored vehicles will set smoke and the target can go into cover. Below is a screen with a video of the same shooting at 32 km, the countdown of the flight time was kindly provided by the Pentagon.
It becomes obvious that in battle formations, BMPs are needed with the ability to hit such targets with standard cannon armament, and receive target designation from tanks with a KAZ of the Afghanita type, whose missile radar detects 10+ km ...

[OgnennyiKotik]

Tori "see" a target with an RCS of more than 0,05 m2, take into account the flight altitude, it is not at all a fact that the torus will detect Spike, so that target designation will give zero hope at all.

Quote: Phoenix

battle formations need BMPs with the ability to hit such targets with standard cannon armament

Here's what you need:

[Azimuth]

Shorad in my opinion will generally be useless against an ATGM like Spike.
The maximum is an active defense system, which may save the complex itself, but it will not be able to prevent Spikes from destroying other equipment in the army that does not have active defense.

[OgnennyiKotik]

The issue of saturation, if a 4 Shorad enhancement per Striker platoon (1 pieces), then it will cover. The concept is reminiscent of the BMPT.
By the way, it is against the spike that the chances are great, at least the radars and their control system on it are Israeli, and this is more than half of the success. As you know, your weapon works better against your own.

[Dread]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Torahs "see" the target with RCS more than 0,05 m2, take into account the flight altitude, it is not at all a fact that the torus will detect Spike, for the fact that target designation will give zero hope at all.

For SAM "Tor-M1, M2" the smallest image intensifier of the target is 0,05 sq. meters according to open data.
OgnennyiKotik - you and did not understand the physical meaning of the direct range equation.
"In the case of strengthening the air defense system of ATS with anti-aircraft missile systems" Tor ", and especially" Tor M2U ", it will be possible to successfully fight all types of cruise missiles and UABs of various types, including small-sized" Spice-250 ", GBU-39, GBU -53, Tamuz-class long-range missiles (Spike NLOS). "

[Dread]

OgnennyiKotik - do not deliberately write lies about IM-SHORAD!
"The" analogue "of the United States loses to the Russian complex in a number of parameters. Thus, the Israeli radar stations are capable of intercepting targets moving at a speed of no more than 1482 kilometers per hour, while the" Pantsirey "radar bar is 3600 kilometers per hour. the number and characteristics of anti-aircraft weapons, especially when it comes to missiles "Stinger" the speed of approach to the target of which is two times inferior to the missile defense system used on the "Pantsir-S". "

[Azimuth]

In my humble opinion, both of these complexes have no chance against an armed ATGM attack helicopter with a range of 20-25 km and a combined guidance system. They will not be able to hit either the carrier or the missile, and with an organized and coordinated attack by a pair of helicopters, these air defense systems / air defense missile systems have no chance at all.

[Dread]

Quote: Azimuth

In my humble opinion both of these complexes have no chance against an attack helicopter armed with an ATGM with a range of 20-25 km and a combined guidance system.

On your childish opinion it cannot be otherwise. To begin with, learn the radar and parameters of the air defense system, than write your children's fairy tales and openly lie. Weakly calculate the distance - at which the attack helicopter of the "Tor-M1, M2" air defense missile system will be found and then destroyed ...

[Phoenix]

Why, then. The rockets are very slow-moving and have huge wings. A typical target for TOR, for example, on all training firing, is the Saman target missile, this is a modified Osa air defense missile. The spike flies several times faster, the spike is much smaller in size. The NLOS spike flies quite high, you can see it remarkably because the target is contrasting against the background of an empty sky. By all the main parameters, we can judge that TORs can shoot down this easily. The question of the quality of management personnel is more relevant: D

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Phoenix

A typical target for TOR, for example, on all training firing, is the Saman target missile,

There is only one small nuance. Corner reflectors and transponders are placed on these targets to increase visibility. "Saman" has EPR of at least 0,36 sq.

Quote: Phoenix

tremendous wings.

These wings for the radar do not exist. They are made of radio-absorbing composites, like most of the rocket.

[Phoenix]

In the rocket there is a seeker directly "on the face", which quite reflects itself. And the EPR of such a clever thing is probably newer than that of a flat surface. There is nothing to argue about without accurate information about the EPR spike. But if you google the EPR spike, then we can discuss: D

[Azimuth]

Quote: Dread

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Torahs "see" the target with RCS more than 0,05 m2, take into account the flight altitude, it is not at all a fact that the torus will detect Spike, for the fact that target designation will give zero hope at all.

For SAM "Tor-M1, M2" the smallest image intensifier of the target is 0,05 sq. meters according to open data.
OgnennyiKotik - you and did not understand the physical meaning of the direct range equation.
"In the case of strengthening the air defense system of ATS with anti-aircraft missile systems" Tor ", and especially" Tor M2U ", it will be possible to successfully fight all types of cruise missiles and UABs of various types, including small-sized" Spice-250 ", GBU-39, GBU -53, Tamuz-class long-range missiles (Spike NLOS). "

SAM "Thor" is unlikely to be often designated as a target for attack helicopters, their enemy is SAM / SAM of a lower rank. Here the question is, what will be able to oppose and make the Pantsir air defense missile system or the Sosna air defense missile system, or the Derivation avenue air defense system?
With SAM "Tor", etc. other means will struggle. The long launch range ensures the safety of the attack helicopter from MANPADS and ZU / ZSU / SAM / ZRPK in tactical formations or in columns on the march, what else needs to be proved?

Returning specifically to the Thor air defense missile system and the first war in which they took part.
The Armenian complexes, as I understand it, knocked down 1 unit. Su-25 and several Azeri UAVs, their own losses amounted to 4 units. these air defense systems out of the available 6 units.

The cadets are Armenians, they study with us, not on Mars, they have their own general military school, but nothing more. We conduct joint exercises and, in fact, are the backbone of military science and a source of knowledge in the CSTO, here, first of all, we had gaps, but we persistently do not want to admit this. Explanations like those that the "Tor" air defense missile system turned out to be ineffective, because the Armenians are crooked and simply mean, and they have no basis.
Again, the war in Karabakh is the first real war for the Tor air defense system, and the war was fought with the most modern Western systems. Instead of dipping or dipping into the well-known Armenian anti-aircraft gunners, it is necessary to disassemble and study their experience down to microns. They fought, and did not flee from the battlefield, throwing the air defense system to the enemy as trophies. And they fought relying on the knowledge and weapons received from us and from us, their defeat is essentially our defeat. We look very ugly when we push everything onto them.

You write - if you put the "Tor" air defense system in the SAR; and what will change? My opinion is that Thor will be beat and screwed up again. The Syrian calculations are no better than the Armenian ones, the Armenian ones are not worse than ours, but the army with experience and capabilities will be much richer and stronger, respectively, than the Azerbaijani army to fight against them. One cannot expect a better result than in Karabakh.

There is a fact, the first real war and the "Tor" air defense missile system FUCKED, our system and the vision that we taught the Armenians screwed up. Perhaps technically "Thor" is more perfect than any analogues, but it is a piece of iron without people, systems, experience, and a piece of iron useless, because our system has shown itself to be worthless.

[Dread]

Quote: Azimuth

There is a fact, the first real war and the "Tor" air defense missile system FUCKED, our system and the vision that we taught the Armenians screwed up.

This "screwed up" the crooked hands of the illiterate and not only ... The Armenians in the recent war with Azerbaijan used outdated SAM "Wasp", according to their illiterate commanders and strategist - Pashinyan the little soro - hence such a deplorable result.
And don't give a damn about "Pantsir-C1", which after 2 upgrades has unique characteristics. Minimum image intensifier for hitting targets
is equal to 0,0002 sq. meters or 2 cm2. Therefore, do not write your fairy tales, children's strategist!

[Your stranger]

You can always add that the eop spike nlc will be 0.00002 square meters

[Azimuth]

Look closely at the first shots.

[Azimuth]

Quote: Dread

Quote: Azimuth

There is a fact, the first real war and the "Tor" air defense missile system FUCKED, our system and the vision that we taught the Armenians screwed up.

This "screwed up" the crooked hands of the illiterate and not only ... The Armenians in the recent war with Azerbaijan used outdated SAM "Wasp", according to their illiterate commanders and strategist - Pashinyan the little soro - hence such a deplorable result.
And don't give a damn about "Pantsir-C1", which after 2 upgrades has unique characteristics. Minimum image intensifier for hitting targets
is equal to 0,0002 sq. meters or 2 cm2. Therefore, do not write your fairy tales, children's strategist!

The Armenians used not only the Osa air defense system, but also the Tor-M2KM air defense system 4 and 6 of which were destroyed by the Azerbaijanis. I repeat, you are above proposing to put the same "Thor" air defense system in the SAR, you are broadcasting about the fact that he is supposed to be able to do something against the Israelis. But I repeat once again, the Syrian calculations are not better than the Armenian ones, but the Israelis are a much stronger adversary than the Azerbaijanis, and what will be the result? My opinion The "Thor" air defense missile system of the Syrians will be destroyed by the Israelis even faster than the Armenian "Thor" air defense missile systems by the Azeris.
And you continue to tell me about the eop and be clever and rude.
And I repeat once again, the Armenian anti-aircraft gunners studied in our schools, they participated in joint exercises with us, and they were not more stupid or dumber than you, and it was not Pashinyan who sat there and fired from a "Tor". They faced a situation and a war that no one had ever encountered before. The same actions of the Turks in Syria or Libya, when they used their TV2 "Bayraktar" drone on a relatively large scale, this is childish fuss, compared to what the Azerbaijanis did and what the Armenian anti-aircraft gunners faced.

Well, to your eop ZRPK "Pantsir" - it was destroyed by the Turks in Syria and Libya, and the Israelis in Syria.

I repeat again, the ZU / ZSU / ZRK / ZRPK is just a piece of iron, even if it is a magnificent piece of iron and surpasses its counterparts in many respects, outside the system, without human brains, it is NOTHING. And this has been proven over and over again, but instead of analysis and conclusions, albeit at our level, we blame everything on others and continue to broadcast about performance characteristics.

[Phoenix]

Nevertheless, in Khmeimim, the air defense group copes with its tasks and intercepts small targets, including high-speed MLRS shells and stealth loitering ammunition. While your statements are unfounded. Moreover, the statistics of the use of Shells in Syria and Libya speaks of their very high efficiency even in the hands of the Sadyk and Libyans. And there are always losses. Maybe there are no such big problems with application skills? There are problems of perception of reality and distortion of information, because of which emotional personalities either panic and turn on others or rejoice. Depending in which direction the disorder happened.

[Azimuth]

Quote: Dread

Quote: Azimuth

The Armenians used not only the Osa air defense system, but also SAM "Tor-M2KM" 4 and 6 of which were destroyed by the Azerbaijanis. I repeat, you are above proposing to put the same "Thor" air defense system in the SAR, you are broadcasting about the fact that he is supposed to be able to do something against the Israelis.

An illiterate strategist - no need to frankly write a lie. The only destroyed "Thor" was off, which was brought by the Armenian strategists to the barn ... About the rest - this is your blatant unsubstantiated lie.

Quote: Azimuth

Well, to your eop ZRPK "Pantsir" - it was destroyed by the Turks in Syria and Libya, and the Israelis in Syria.

A propagandist with childish babble - change your training manual and do not write your insolent lies!

"The only destroyed" air defense missile system "Tor" was discovered and observed by a UAV in a fully operational condition. At the same time, the "Thor" itself did not find the UAV, so the crew calmly moved to the shelter.
Therefore, I suggested that the "genius strategist" and the marshal of the sofa troops watch the video in detail.
The second Armenian air defense missile system "Tor" was destroyed on the march when changing positions, 3 and 4 were destroyed in positions and working.

Perhaps the Armenians are lying in order to inflate the loss to bring down their Pashinyan, but the information is so far. It is impossible to understand everything, because the Azerbaijanis do not publish all the videos of the destruction of this or that equipment, hiding the tactics, techniques and means of destruction used in a particular case.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Azimuth

The second Armenian air defense missile system "Tor" was destroyed on the march when changing positions, 3 and 4 were destroyed in positions and working.

And where does such detailed information come from?

I only read about this:

Armenia lost four of the six Russian-made Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems (the most modern models) deployed in Karabakh in the first 15 days of the war, and half of the entire NKR air defense was destroyed in 15 minutes on September 27.

This was stated by the former secretary of the Security Council of the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic Samvel Babayan.
According to him, after the destruction of the "Thors", four more complexes were sent to the combat zone.

Of the six Buk air defense systems, only one was in working order. In the first minutes of the war, units of the Azerbaijani Armed Forces destroyed 10 Osa air defense systems and one S-300 air defense system.

Quote:
"There was no weapon. The air defense was at zero. There were 6 TORs, of which 4 were destroyed in the first 15 days. Then they sent 4 more, which can provide a maximum of 45 km. Of the 6 BUK-5 units were inoperative, a repair team was waiting from Moscow to to be used by the 10th. "

Congratulations, you are in Ali's pet club

[Azimuth]

Damn, I don't want to be Ali's favorite at all and is not included in the plans, is there no prettier Gulchatay there?

By the way, about Ali, from what opera or anecdote? Too old I can't know all the jokes of the current generation.

Regarding the information, apparently, and what is given above, I read it here, and the root crop knows it elsewhere - only that which hooked was deposited in the head. It is also not indifferent and hurts pride, but I am not shell-shocked like a "comrade marshal", I try, already at an "amateur" level, like solving a crossword puzzle, to find the reasons and understand what is the catch and the reason for the defeat.
The complex in terms of performance characteristics is one of the best, as well as the ZRPK Pantsir, S-300 and S-400, and they beat him, and Pantsir beat him, and S-300 beat him, turn for the S-400, and he is our hope, after all, but not just a product for sale.

PS By the way, I went to Telegram, which was advised by a "Russian orientalist" or the like. What a Russian he is, he is an Armenian and their channel.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Azimuth

By the way about Ali, from a kaeoi opera or anecdote?

This is the first account of "Dred", he writes to me from the third account https://topwar.ru/user/Али/. Последние комментарии особо весёлые, он тут пока сдерживается

Quote: Azimuth

The complex in terms of performance characteristics is one of the best, as well as the ZRPK Pantsir, S-300 and S-400, and they beat him, and Pantsir beat him, and S-300 beat him, turn for the S-400, and he is our hope, after all, but not just a product for sale.

Paper performance characteristics do not mean anything. There are a lot of nuances and outright lies. In general, air defense is a weapon of deterrence and last chance. The main task is not to allow aviation to work quietly on the ground and to destroy objects that have accidentally broken through. The main role in any case for the Air Force, without AWACS aircraft / helicopters, the principle of air defense is impossible.

Quote: Azimuth

What a Russian he is, he is an Armenian and their channel.

Oh, are you not used to it yet? Whoever uses the word "Russian" most often in speech has any nationality, but not Russian.
This dude is from Odessa, I don't remember his nationality. The main interest is that he is an orientalist and "walked" with his legs all over Syria and many other "eastern" countries. Naturally, you need to filter what he says, in principle, like the words of any person.

[Azimuth]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Quote: Azimuth

By the way about Ali, from a kaeoi opera or anecdote?

This is the first account of "Dred", he writes to me from the third account https://topwar.ru/user/Али/. Последние комментарии особо весёлые, он тут пока сдерживается

Quote: Azimuth

The complex in terms of performance characteristics is one of the best, as well as the ZRPK Pantsir, S-300 and S-400, and they beat him, and Pantsir beat him, and S-300 beat him, turn for the S-400, and he is our hope, after all, but not just a product for sale.

Paper performance characteristics do not mean anything. There are a lot of nuances and outright lies. In general, air defense is a weapon of deterrence and last chance. The main task is not to allow aviation to work quietly on the ground and to destroy objects that have accidentally broken through. The main role in any case for the Air Force, without AWACS aircraft / helicopters, the principle of air defense is impossible.

Quote: Azimuth

What a Russian he is, he is an Armenian and their channel.

Oh, are you not used to it yet? Whoever uses the word "Russian" most often in speech has any nationality, but not Russian.
This dude is from Odessa, I don't remember his nationality. The main interest is that he is an orientalist and "walked" with his legs all over Syria and many other "eastern" countries. Naturally, you need to filter what he says, in principle, like the words of any person.

It is clear, either NOT worth it, or NOT giving. In the literal sense, if they do not become, but morally slide down to rear-wheel drive and rear-wheel drive behavior.

I agree, there is no way without the Air Force, but where our aviation industry Taburetkin will lead, only God knows.

Regarding the Armenian spill from Odessa, I and one "Russian patriot" Bagdasarov are enough. I treated them normally before, and then as I looked, they were going to spit saliva in their cafe next to me, healthy foreheads, not one went, but how are we so OBLIGED. Well, all of them, they put freeloaders on their necks. As a crowd of someone to extinguish ours, so you are always welcome, but how to really behave like men, so Vanya save the ancient people. Thanks to the watermelons for showing us their insides. Although some of the others are standing, there was nothing to stop them all there, or even some of the others escaped with a slight fright.

[Azimuth]

Quote: Phoenix

Nevertheless, in Khmeimim, the air defense group copes with its tasks and intercepts small targets, including high-speed MLRS shells and stealth loitering ammunition. While your statements are unfounded. Moreover, the statistics of the use of Shells in Syria and Libya speaks of their very high efficiency even in the hands of the Sadyk and Libyans. And there are always losses. Maybe there are no such big problems with application skills? There are problems of perception of reality and distortion of information, because of which emotional personalities either panic and turn on others or rejoice. Depending in which direction the disorder happened.

Perhaps you are an expert and you are right. I think they are different.
Calculate the cost of our equipment destroyed or damaged in parking lots during attacks from MLRS to artisanal strike UAVs ... As far as I know from the media, we were able to reduce the losses of our aircraft on the ground not due to the Pantsir air defense missile system, but due to the construction of fortified shelters for equipment, pushing the security perimeter even further forward and increasing the number of cover.
War is also money, while in this regard, in terms of efficiency, we cannot boast of anything particularly in terms of the discussed air defense missile systems and air defense systems.