Military Review

The place of the Rakovor battle

201
The place of the Rakovor battle
Rakovor battle. Miniature of the Facial Chronicle Code


Many people know about the Rakovor battle. But where is the battle? It turns out that historians do not care about this question. Estonian historians do not care about this, this battle is not theirs история... Although on the other hand - how to say. But Russian historians might be concerned.


The ruins of the Viru-Nigula chapel

Usually the place of the battle is associated with the "chapel of Mary" (Maarja kabeli) in the village. Viru Nigula. And this chapel really was from the 20th century. It is believed that the "chapel of Mary" was erected at the site of the battle. But those who really know these places will say that there could not have been a battle here, that this is not the right place. From Viru-Nigula to Rakvere about XNUMX km.

No sane commander would dare to take battle against superior forces at such a distance from his fortress. And other factors must be taken into account too.

To determine the place of the battle, source documents are needed. And in reality there are two of them: the First Novgorod Chronicle and the Livonian Rhymed Chronicles.

The fact of the battle is confirmed by both sides.

It is a fact. There are two descriptions of the same event. It remains only to interpret all this correctly, based on primary sources, logic, personal experience, common sense, knowledge of the area, etc.

“In summer 6776 [1268]. Dumasha Novgorodians with their prince Yuriem, want to go to Lithuania, and inii to Poltesk, and inii to Narova.

And as if you had gone to Dubrovna, there was a strife, and rose up and went for Narova to Rakovoru. "

From this place begins the story about the battle in the Novgorod Chronicle.

What is clear from the text read?

A group of Novgorodians led by Prince Yuri Andreevich decides where to raid. Someone wants to go to Lithuania, someone - to Polotsk, and others - across the river. Narov. Having argued a bit, they decide to go to Rakovor (Rakvere - from now on I will use modern names).

Apparently, the Novgorodians decided, using the factor of surprise, to seize the fortress, but failed. And, having lost 7 people, they returned home.

The question arises, why did they all suddenly agree to try to capture a well-fortified fortress with a small detachment?

It’s like gamble or madness, unless they’ve found out something that triggered such “emotions” in them. Or rather, revenge. And they, without hesitation for a long time, rushed to capture the fortress. This could be the news that the knights from Rakvere killed the Novgorod merchants or plundered the train. In general, something out of the ordinary. And therefore it is not surprising that later it was decided to collect regiments from all the northwestern principalities and go to take revenge on the Danes. For 7 people who died in an ordinary raid, it is unlikely that revenge would have been on such a scale.

There were masters of "vicious deeds" in Novgorod. In other words, craftsmen who can make various siege devices. And they got down to business. The Novgorod intelligence, analytics and operation planning also performed excellently. They knew in advance where and how the fortress was located, the height of the fortress walls and the exact plan of the fortress. This means that the Novgorodians had a real plan of how to besiege the fortress and take it by storm.

The Rakvere fortress has been well preserved to this day. And this is really a great fortification, especially for the XNUMXth century.


The photo shows the northern, oldest part of the Rakvere Fortress.

From the chronicle it is known that the Order is sending an embassy headed by Lazor Moiseevich to Novgorod.

"And sent her ambassadors to Nѣmtsi."

Order ambassadors arrived in Novgorod, as it is written in the chronicle, from Riga, Viljandi, Tartu and other cities. And they swore not to help

"Overcome with the call and eat the shell".

That is, with the Danes.

И

"Lazor Moisievich led all of them to the cross, bishops and nobles of God," I swear.

The question is very interesting, but who is Lazor Moisievich?

He, as it is written in the chronicle, heads the embassy of the Order, "leads" the bishops and knights to the cross to take a sacred oath on it. It can only be one person - the master of the order.

Otto was the master at that time. And at that time he was in Lithuania.

Most likely, the ambassadors actually arrived in Novgorod. But not in order, as it is written in the chronicle, to take an oath "not to help them from the Kolyvan and Rakorites." And Lazor Moiseevich arrived for a slightly different reason.

When, obsessed with the desire for revenge, the Novgorodians rushed towards Rakvere, then, most likely, their path ran through the Dorpat bishopric and partly through the territory of the Livonian Order. This is indeed the shortest route from Novgorod to Rakvere.

The Livonian Order constantly made attempts to conclude a peace treaty with Novgorod in order to stop the frequent raids of the latter. And we know that earlier such agreements were concluded with both Novgorod and Pskov. But they were not carried out.

Probably, at the time described, another peace treaty was concluded between Novgorod and the Livonian Order.

In the text of the chronicle, Lazor Moisievich says:

"We are peace with you",

Which, albeit indirectly, indicates that a peace treaty existed.

And the detachment led by the prince (the prince is an official) Yuri Andreevich de facto violated this agreement. It is clear that the plundering of the lands of the order and the bishopric was not without.

Lazor Moiseevich came to say literally the following:

revenge is your right, but organize a hike to Rakvere from the side of the river. Narova.

On January 23, 1268, the entire army left Novgorod.

There are two options for the route from Novgorod to the river. Narova: either through Luga (town of Luga), or through Pskov. The second is longer, but more real. The troops moved along the eastern shore of Lake Peipsi. On the right bank of the river. Narov and now there is a village called Perevolok. This is where the old road from Russia to Estonia passed before the city of Narva and St. Petersburg were built.

Local residents say that before the construction of the Narvskaya GRES, the river often dried up in this place in summer.

Having crossed the Narova, the regiments moved along the following route, which will lead to the place of the battle.


Scheme of the movement of Russian troops from the border to the battlefield

The road from the left bank of the river. Narov alone. It runs into the modern city of Jõhvi. On old Swedish and then on Russian maps this place was called Ewe.

Using old maps from open access and considering that when laying roads in those days they tried to avoid water obstacles (rivers) as much as possible. But if it was impossible to avoid rivers, then bridges were built in the most favorable place for this. Building and maintaining a bridge is troublesome and expensive.

When the route became more or less clear, it was discovered that at its key points there are still ancient buildings of varying degrees of preservation.


Purtse Castle

From Jõhvi the road led to the village of Purtse, where the Purtse kindlus castle is located. Nearby there is a bridge across the river. Then the road follows the edge of the cliff. Which coincides with the modern Tallinn-Narva highway to the Rannu village. After Rannu there are several roads towards the sea to the Kalvi manor (manor).


Calvi manor. Photo: © Oleg Podgaisky

Although Kalvi is now called a "manor" (manor), it is actually a medium-sized palace. And it has been beautifully restored in the 90s. Interestingly, a Danish company (Flexa Eesti AS).

At this point, the road makes a rather long descent to the base of the klint. The road starts here and goes through the villages of Pärna, Malla, Linnuse.

Now it is practically an unremarkable forest road. Small bridges were built in the forest across the river. Pada and p. Kongla. In this place, the rivers are calm and not wide.

Linnuze, in Russian it is "settlement". In the area of ​​Linnuse r. Kunda in its course rests against the rock of the cliff and spreads over its surface, forming a ford. The depth of the ford is about 30–40 cm. But the current is quite strong.

On the left bank of the river. Kunda is an old manor house. Her current state is deplorable.


Linnuse Manor

The Russian squad spent the night here before the battle. Going down to the sea, you find yourself on the shore of the bay, which the Danes used as a port.

The road from Rakvere to the "port" passed through Linnuse. Later, the Danes will build a castle on the shores of the bay - Toolse fortress to protect their ships from local pirates.

From Linnuse to Rakvere 20 km. And from Linnuse to Sõmeru, the supposed battle site - 13 km.

By describing the route in detail, I hope to remove the questions about the advance of troops in the northeastern part of modern Estonia.

Coordinates


Е59 ° 21'54.5 "N26 ° 26'12.6" - these are the geographical coordinates where the Battle of Rakovor took place.

Using Google maps services (namely "street view"), you will see how this place looks now.

The river flowing in the immediate vicinity of this point is now called Sõmeru. And earlier it was Kѣgola in the Russian version. Or "evil rivers" in the German version of the chronicles.

Now there is an old bridge in this place. During the construction of the Tallinn-Narva highway, the Symeru riverbed was moved 100 meters to the east. The old bridge is practically buried in the soil.


The modern view of the bridge over the river. Simeru

In this place the river Kogola flowed. And this bridge was crossed by Russian troops before the formation, preparing for battle.

Danish-Livonian troops were located opposite the bridge on a hill.

About the number of Russian troops


This is my evaluative opinion. 1200-1500 people.

With this number of vigilantes, the column in motion will stretch for 4–5 km. And the construction will take at least 1,5 hours. The longitude of the day on February 18, when the battle took place, is about 10 hours.

This also needs to be taken into account. If we assume that the Russian squads left at dawn (that is, at 7:00), add the travel time and the building time, it turns out that the battle began at about 14:00.

Sources say the battle lasted 4 hours. In other words, until 18:00. Which really coincides with the end of daylight hours.

About the number of the Danish order troops


The chronicle indicates that the detachments were from Tartu, Viljandi, Lihula. These are orders.

Paide is singled out separately from the Danish compound:

"Not much of Weissenstein, either."

Probably, really few people were sent.

Well, Tallinn and Rakvere.

There were 34 knights from the Order. But it is said that there were a lot of people with them.

The local population also took an active part in the battle.

In reality, the army from the side of the knights was probably 2 times less than the Russian troops.

About the course of the battle


I don’t think anyone will be very surprised if I note that the Danes' intelligence fully monitored the movement of the Russian troops.

And its number was known. And it was also known that the Novgorodians made siege weapons (devices). And where are they in the wagon train.

The place of the battle is chosen by the defending side. And the place was chosen very well.

Russian troops were allowed to cross the bridge for battle. There was a river behind them. Although small, but still a water barrier.

The wagon train remained on the opposite side of the river.

The Russian troops, seeing the order of formation of the enemy (the central regiment was built with a wedge or "pig" and the regiments of the right and left hand), lined up in a similar way. The main (and most numerous) central regiment (Novgorod) and, accordingly, the regiments of the right and left hand.

At the beginning of the battle, the knights (let it mean the Danish-order troops) managed to impose their battle plan. Weaker units of the knights were put up against the flanking regiments of the Russians.

And the whole battle is instantly divided into three fragments: the main one, where the knights have an advantage, and two flank ones, where the Russians are pushing the enemy. The enemy on the flanks is retreating, and the Russian flank regiments pursue him.

And only thanks to Prince Dmitry Pereyaslavsky, who struck the flank of the central regiment of knights, the central Novgorod regiment was saved.

Both in the chronicle and in the annals there is a description of a knightly military unit that appeared "out of nowhere" at the end of the battle.

It was, most likely, an ambush left by the knights on the right bank of the Kѣgola. When the battle broke out, this detachment attacked the wagon train in order to destroy the siege weapons (siege devices). Part of the detachment captured the bridge and ended up in the rear of the Russian troops,

(according to the chronicle

"Where they stood by the bridge"),

more precisely, the Novgorod regiment, and part of the detachment was destroying the train.

If this is so, then it becomes clear why the Novgorod regiment suffered huge losses and was practically surrounded. Some of the vigilantes, realizing what was happening with the wagon train, tried to cross the river (the bridge was captured). And some of them drowned in this attempt. And their bodies were not found.

Hence

"And others cannot be without weight."

"Spetsnaz" of the knights coped with their task. Most likely, the siege devices were set on fire.

Seeing the smoke, the knights began to retreat towards the fortress.

The plan of the Russian combined troops is the capture of the Rakvere castle. And the plan of the Danish-Livonian troops is to prevent the capture of the fortress.

One plan came true.

In the early Middle Ages, during the siege of fortresses, mainly three types of devices were used: stone throwers, siege towers and a ram.

Many historians believe that vices are stone throwers.

I don't think they wanted to use stone throwers during the siege. The following reasons.

1. Due to the terrain, it is difficult to install them close to the fortress, which significantly reduces the effectiveness of their use.

2. How many stone throwers do you need to carry with you to have the effect of their use?

3. Where did the Novgorodians plan to look for stones suitable for shelling the fortress in winter?

Most likely, it was a siege tower. Perhaps there was a ram too. The loss of this weapon or device completely deprived of the possibility of taking the fortress.

"Standing on the bones"

within three days - this is including the time for making a decision to continue the military campaign.

References:
Novgorod first chronicle
Livonian rhymed chronicles
Author:
Photos used:
photo from the Internet. photo of the bridge is mine
201 comment
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  1. sergo1914
    sergo1914 22 March 2021 18: 06
    +2
    The question is very interesting, but who is Lazor Moisievich?


    Hmm ... So this is ... Moiseevich. And even Lazarus.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. ee2100
      22 March 2021 18: 16
      +5
      So he was called in the Novgorod Chronicle laughing
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 22 March 2021 18: 33
        +5
        Quote: ee2100
        So he was called in the Novgorod Chronicle laughing


        Why did they immediately call me. Not called. Identified.
        1. ee2100
          22 March 2021 18: 39
          +3
          Same version!
          1. El Barto
            El Barto 23 March 2021 13: 36
            +5
            Confusion from the start.
            Lazar Moiseevich (Lazuta-Moizovich)
            boyar novgorod, ambassador to Riga 1268, 1270 ambassador to the prince. Yaroslav in Tver, 1273, ambassador to the prince. Vasily Yaroslavovich in Kostroma.

            The author could check the mentions of this character in the annals.

            After such an obvious mistake, everything else starts to raise doubts.
            1. ee2100
              23 March 2021 13: 38
              0
              To begin with, you will familiarize yourself with the chronicle
              1. El Barto
                El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 15
                +1
                Upon learning of this, Yaroslav went along this side (Volkhov) to Russa, and sat in Russa, and sent Tvorimir to Novgorod: "I refuse everything that they are dissatisfied with me, and all the princes vouch for me." The Novgorodians sent Lazar Moiseevich to him: "Prince, you decided against Saint Sophia, go away, let us die for Saint Sophia, we don't have a prince, but God is true and Saint Sophia, but we don't want you." And warriors from all of the Novgorod land, Pskov, Ladozhan, Korela, Izhara, vozhana came to Novgorod, and went to Golino, young and old, and stood for a week, and Yaroslav's army on the other side

                1270 "Novgorod First Chronicle" (according to the text of the "Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles", vol. III.)
    3. bk0010
      bk0010 22 March 2021 19: 10
      +3
      Quote: sergo1914
      Hmm ... So this is ... Moiseevich. And even Lazarus.
      Exactly. Israel does not yet exist, and the Zionist military is operating at full height!
  2. WHAT IS
    WHAT IS 22 March 2021 18: 39
    +5
    Who won in the end? Let's try to figure it out according to the principle "for whom is the battlefield left?" And the conclusion here is quite unambiguous from the fact that the Novgorodians were able to pick up their fallen and deliver them to their hometown, where they were buried. So the battlefield remained with the Russian army. Suffice it to say that it was after this battle that the Livonian Order was no longer able to recover from defeat and restore its former influence in northeastern Europe, and the Teutonic knights were ordered to the east for three decades.
    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 19: 26
      +1
      In many articles, the Rakovor battle is called a "forgotten victory", but winning the battle and winning the company are different values. There is nothing to be proud of.
      Kutuzov lost to Borodino and won the company. This is yes.
      1. Andy
        Andy 22 March 2021 20: 07
        +3
        why did you decide that he lost? kind of retreated after the battle, but not in time
  3. knn54
    knn54 22 March 2021 18: 48
    +3
    The fortress was not taken, which allowed the chroniclers of the Livonian Order to consider it evidence of the victory of "German" weapons. But according to custom, the victor in the battle was considered the one for whom the battlefield remained, so the success of the Russians is obvious, although the losses were heavy.
    MAIN THING, the Livonian Order never recovered, and the next year's campaign against Pskov was akin to agony.
    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 19: 13
      +2
      Everything was conceptual. If they had not gone to Pskov, they would have shown their weakness. We stood at the walls of Pskov for 10 days, and the surroundings were plundered.
      1. Richard
        Richard 24 March 2021 17: 41
        +1
        Alexander hi
        Thank. I liked the article. There are no comments, because the topic you raised for me is terra incognita.
        The writing style, illustrations and links are impressive. One thing is not clear why it is in "opinions" and not in "history". Indeed, in terms of its level, it is higher than many of the "historical" materials posted there today.
        1. ee2100
          24 March 2021 17: 50
          +2
          Hey! Regarding placement, this is not a question for me. Well at least so laughing
          It is a pity that there is little real discussion. Only Michael "gouges" a little and then somehow not reasoned and sluggish.
          The topic is really "narrow"
  4. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 March 2021 19: 11
    +7
    Bravo, Alexander!
    Great research!
    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 19: 21
      +5
      Hey! Thank.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 22 March 2021 20: 29
        +4
        Hello Alexander! I completely agree with Anton, the article is wonderful! good
        1. ee2100
          22 March 2021 20: 56
          +2
          Hi Konstantin!
          I wanted to write to Anton, as to Pitersky, for information. The Calvi Palace, according to rumors, and you can trust them, belongs to the son of Matvienko.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 22 March 2021 21: 23
            +4
            Write, it will be interesting to him.
            1. ee2100
              22 March 2021 21: 25
              +2
              Then he will probably read it. "Petersburg" was with a capital letter and it turned out as a surname laughing
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 22 March 2021 21: 29
                +2
                Rather like a klikuha. smile Yes, this is not the point, I also sometimes have word formations here that I did not write. request
                1. ee2100
                  22 March 2021 21: 33
                  +2
                  The main thing is that no offense
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 22 March 2021 21: 34
                    +4
                    Yes, there is nothing to be offended.))
                  2. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 23 March 2021 19: 49
                    +2
                    Thank you, Alexanr! "Petersburg" is a diagnosis.
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 14: 49
            +2
            The Calvi Palace, according to rumors, and you can trust them, belongs to the son of Matvienko.

            Hello, hello hi Sorry I didn't come under The Last Relic. I am very glad that you are writing, and if there are flaws, we will peacefully talk it over on the forum. With respect, Nicholai. drinks
            You mentioned Kalvi (rumored) - which one in Estonia? And then, having driven in a search for Google, I found such a name in the homeland of the "great emperor" - Corsica! laughing
            1. ee2100
              23 March 2021 14: 54
              +1
              Yes it is in Estonia. Previously, it was possible to rent the entire castle for some event, but now it is not. For about 10 years already.
              There is a decent SPA complex on the left of the main entrance
      2. El Barto
        El Barto 23 March 2021 13: 40
        +2
        If you are really interested in the history of the issue, take a look - on Klim Zhukov's YouTube channel, this battle is disassembled in detail
        1. ee2100
          23 March 2021 13: 45
          0
          Yesterday I answered the same offer and I will answer you. I watched and realized that this is a show of two bald men and there is nothing serious there.
          But I do not forbid you to teach history on YouTube.
          1. El Barto
            El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 20
            +2
            That is, you do not distinguish between different channels on YouTube? I say - Zhukov's own channel. He is called Klim Zhukov. He has a detailed analysis of the history of the Rakovor battle in several parts. Everything is quite academic.
  5. Andy
    Andy 22 March 2021 19: 57
    +2
    Most likely, it was a siege tower.
    ---------
    Why a siege tower for a castle on a mountain? but the stone throwers fit

    "Where did the Novgorodians plan to look for stones suitable for shelling the fortress in winter?" there are a lot of both limestone and granite stones in estonia
    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 20: 51
      -1
      In my previous article about the film "The Last Relic" there is a photo of the fortress from a bird's eye view and it shows that the southern side is the most vulnerable.
      You can look at a lot of photos of the fortress on the Internet, but judging by one photograph of the fortress, this is not very good.
      1. Andy
        Andy 22 March 2021 21: 36
        +1
        To you and on the other side send a photo? The hill is steep, from the south there is a small clearing with a moat and a precipice. You cannot find stones (there are koi on every field) in winter, but you can drag them through the snow and on a steep slope, God knows what ...
        1. ee2100
          22 March 2021 21: 42
          +2
          I don't need a photo. I have lived in Rakvere for over 20 years.
          Pay attention to the outrigger wall. It is separated from the main southern one by more than 200 m. So read how the trebuchet works.
          1. Andy
            Andy 22 March 2021 21: 58
            +1
            I also climbed the fortress and the hill. So siege towers have nothing to do. By the way, your route coincides with the place of exit to the surface, and I think it is logical to mobilize the local population for extraction and delivery in war conditions.
            1. ee2100
              22 March 2021 22: 10
              +2
              We do not know what the fortress looked like in the XIII century, there is a site of the fortress and castles of the Baltic (Latvian, it seems by the name of the creator Rimsha) there is a primary plan of the fortress. You can ask.
              At the expense of the local population. For them, the Russian invaders. And at the first approach of the invaders, they scattered across the swamp forests.
              The knights could still mobilize the male population for resistance and this is the maximum.
              There is modern research on trebuchets, of course,
              that English. To break a wall up to 2 meters thick, it is necessary to hit one point with a projectile about 50 kg 16-18 times.
              So draw your own conclusions.
              1. Andy
                Andy 22 March 2021 22: 14
                +1
                scattered, yes. but there were always prisoners. but as I said, on any field you will find boulders for catapults. you write, the reconnaissance worked, and the forces and the plan of the fortress are known, so really the governors did not think about what they would shoot.
                1. ee2100
                  22 March 2021 22: 22
                  +3
                  So I write that there were no trebuchets.
                  1. Andy
                    Andy 22 March 2021 22: 34
                    +1

                    south and southeast view. not only is the area not conducive to some kind of walking towers, so there is a 15m cliff at the edges of this site. catapults, crossbows and assault ladders are quite logical. but they were destroyed, and if memory serves, the military engineer who built them also died. That's why the siege was lifted
                    1. ee2100
                      22 March 2021 22: 55
                      +2
                      We do not know what the united Russian troops were counting on. We can only guess. You can discuss this, but there is a direct relationship: the weight of the projectile and the range of its flight. And we must take into account that there is decent accuracy, the shells must be of the same weight and shape.
                      In order for a 50 kg stone to reach the target, the trebuchet must be no more than 30 meters away from it (I could be mistaken)
                      So consider.
                      Back to the article.
                      "Spetsnaz" most likely destroyed 1 unit of an offensive device. And this is at least a few sledges.
                      If you carry the trebuchets, then there would be many times more of them.
                      The northeastern side is really suitable for the assault.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 March 2021 07: 44
                      +3
                      Good angle. From this wedge-shaped ridge of hills - a clear impression of the remnants of the fortifications.
  6. Crimea26
    Crimea26 22 March 2021 19: 59
    -2
    "From the chronicle it is known that the Order is sending an embassy headed by Lazor Moiseevich to Novgorod"

    Lazor Moiseevich von Kaganovich ????
  7. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 22 March 2021 20: 03
    -2
    the goblin klim beetles now perfectly describes it all
    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 20: 54
      +3
      The purpose of the article is to determine the place of the battle. And the goblin with Zhukov just have fun and carry an ideological blizzard.
      1. El Barto
        El Barto 23 March 2021 13: 44
        0
        Zhukov is a serious historian and he has his own channel on which the research is presented in a completely academic form.
        1. ee2100
          23 March 2021 13: 48
          0
          In your opinion, if there is no channel on YouTube, then this is no longer an expert?
          1. El Barto
            El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 23
            +1
            The point is that you are confusing Zhukov's performances on the Goblin channel with a lecture and recorded on his own channel. That's all. And it makes sense to get acquainted with these lectures, this is not a Golin show, but a serious thing
  8. Freeman
    Freeman 22 March 2021 20: 05
    +3
    The question is very interesting, but who is Lazor Moisievich?


    Novgorod boyar

    Lazar Moiseevich (Lazuta-Moizovich)
    boyar novgorod, ambassador to Riga 1268, 1270 ambassador to the prince. Yaroslav in Tver, 1273, ambassador to the prince. Vasily Yaroslavovich in Kostroma.
    https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enc_biography/68258/Лазарь


    Shl. Lazarus and Moses, very common while names among Orthodox Christians.
    Later they began to be used mainly among the clergy, when taking monastic vows.
  9. Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 March 2021 20: 29
    +4
    Thank. Liked. First of all, the logic of presentation.
    1. ee2100
      23 March 2021 01: 34
      +3
      It was nice to hear from you!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 23 March 2021 05: 12
        +5
        It's very interesting how the landscape is changing. And what happens, for example, with the old roads.

        This is an example of “voting with your feet” for me. Track.
        1. El Barto
          El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 28
          +1
          For natural reasons, the landscape does not change much (overgrowth with forest or, on the contrary, clear-cuttings do not change the landscape very much)

          Landscape archeology methods are now being used, for example using satellite imagery. It was in this way that the fortified camps of the Romans in England were restored and the most likely site of the Battle of Kulikovo was found.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 March 2021 22: 04
            +2
            And what about the riverbed change? Waterlogging? Formation of ravines and gullies?
            The advance of the forest to the steppe and the steppe to the forest?

            And landscapes are changeable. Remember Heraclitus.
            1. El Barto
              El Barto 24 March 2021 17: 10
              +1
              "... The Guatelmal jungle is not the most convenient region for expeditions. It is quite difficult to study this area, and even more so to conduct excavations in them. Therefore, to search for new data, archaeologists decided to use other methods. In particular, they surveyed the area using lidar. This the technology makes it possible to obtain data on certain objects remotely, using active optical systems that use the phenomena of absorption and scattering of light ...
              ... As a result, his team found traces of rural and urban Mayan settlements, detached houses, large palaces, ceremonial centers and pyramids. The total number of objects detected by the lidar was 61480 ...
              The researchers also found that road networks in cities, villages and between them covered almost 110 square kilometers. For some roads, the ancient inhabitants built fortifications. This find revealed links between urban centers and smaller settlements in the world ... "
              https://www.vesti.ru/nauka/article/1071898
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 24 March 2021 19: 54
                +2
                Lidar is an interesting thing. But darling.
        2. ee2100
          23 March 2021 14: 47
          +2
          Roads die very quickly if not used. New ones are being built, and the old ones are in desolation.
          The section of the road that I described in the article, Calvi - Malla, is now practically a forest road, and until recently it was very busy.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 March 2021 22: 05
            +2
            And there is. And busy tracts are overgrown with forest.
            1. El Barto
              El Barto 24 March 2021 17: 24
              +1
              The technologies showing ancient landscapes are simply the sea. And aerial photography and satellite, etc.
              They are not at all unique, they just didn't do it much before, but now it costs serious money, which archaeologists cannot always find.
              Example: I personally came across some time ago with the taxation of large areas of the forest fund in the North-West region by the method of stereo - aerial photography (the method and equipment are still Soviet). So, not only can you evaluate and measure almost every tree, in the forests you can clearly see old / ancient roads, places of ancient settlements (farms, settlements), places of economic activity of people. In fact, nature, forest, and steppe and the desert perfectly preserves traces of human activity (read about research in Africa, Asia, America, England, and, by the way, in Russia)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 24 March 2021 19: 58
                +2
                I am familiar with such methods.
                And I can imagine that in the place of the overgrown settlement the forest will be different. True, try it, prove it without a given answer.

                However, this does not negate the earlier arguments.
  10. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 22 March 2021 21: 18
    +3
    Livonian risky chronicles.

    It turns out. this is a dangerous business, to write chronicles! :)))
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 22 March 2021 23: 49
      +4
      Of course. Suddenly which prince does not like it.
    2. ee2100
      23 March 2021 00: 04
      +5
      Moderated error am
  11. Catfish
    Catfish 22 March 2021 22: 12
    +4
    In the early Middle Ages, during the siege of fortresses, mainly three types of devices were used: stone throwers, siege towers and a ram.

    A little bit of everything as illustrations.




    1. ee2100
      22 March 2021 23: 10
      +2
      Konstantin, thanks! Where are we without you !!!!
    2. El Barto
      El Barto 23 March 2021 13: 49
      +1
      Well, the first picture is very unreliable, mostly the artist's fantasy. The onager is much more reliable in the last picture (bottom left)
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 23 March 2021 13: 54
        +2
        Well, the first picture is very unreliable,

        In my opinion, it is just quite reliable, because it is an engraving of that time. The ram is a clear reconstruction of one of the simplest devices, in the third and fourth pictures, to a certain extent, the fruit of the creativity of the artists who created them.
        1. El Barto
          El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 46
          0
          This is a 19th century drawing. The most important thing is the wrong lever drive. The bow was not there, the lever was driven by a torsion bar with a rope spring. See the description of Marcellinus
        2. El Barto
          El Barto 23 March 2021 14: 54
          +1
          Reconstruction according to Marcellinus


          1. Catfish
            Catfish 23 March 2021 15: 16
            +4
            So there were a lot of them, of different types, but of the same purpose, each country and each army created what they needed.





            1. El Barto
              El Barto 23 March 2021 16: 24
              +1
              Well, I was talking specifically about onager. And by the way, their purpose and origin were different.
              The network has a good article "The device and classification of throwing machines" A. Zorich
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 23 March 2021 16: 52
                +2
                Alexey hi , thank. But I prefer firearms. smile
                1. Richard
                  Richard 24 March 2021 18: 17
                  +2
                  “A cobblestone in the hand of the proletariat is a formidable weapon (c)
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 24 March 2021 18: 19
                    +2
                    And two - already the end of the world! laughing
  12. kalibr
    kalibr 23 March 2021 07: 48
    +2
    What an interesting article! But here's how to understand it: Livonian Risky Chronicles.
    1. ee2100
      23 March 2021 09: 27
      +3
      Okay. Typo that passed moderation.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 23 March 2021 09: 55
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      But here's how to understand it: Livonian Risky Chronicles.

      When I read you, I often ask myself this question ...
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 23 March 2021 15: 17
        +1
        In someone else's eye, Ivan, everything is seen much more clearly than in his own.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 23 March 2021 15: 36
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          In someone else's eye, Ivan, everything is seen much more clearly than in his own.

          Exactly!
  13. Operator
    Operator 23 March 2021 08: 34
    -7
    The author clearly needs to identify himself - Russian Rakovor or Chukhonskoe Rakvere laughing

    And most importantly, there are no forays with vices in principle.
    1. ee2100
      23 March 2021 09: 32
      +3
      "In principle, there are no forays with vices." If not difficult, explain.
      The text says that modern names are used.
      I like Weisenberg better and nothing to do with self-identification.
      1. Operator
        Operator 23 March 2021 10: 20
        -5
        There is no need to pull the owl onto the globe - you even use the historical Russian name of the city in the title of the article, and in the text you slip into a mix of modern and historical names.

        No one makes a raid (raid operation) with vices in the wagon train.

        Well, write in the text the historical German names of Livonia (and not a hodgepodge) so that readers immediately understand who the author is.
        1. ee2100
          23 March 2021 10: 30
          +2
          You don’t need to tell me what to do, and I won’t tell you where to go.
          1. Operator
            Operator 23 March 2021 10: 49
            -5
            Published the text - if you please get it.
            1. ee2100
              23 March 2021 10: 54
              +2
              I am very sorry that the reader sees errors that have passed moderation and find fault with geographic terms.
              The bottom line is not commented on by anyone.
              The site visitor shrinks to the level of the exam.
              1. Operator
                Operator 23 March 2021 11: 07
                -5
                As far as I understand, in the next text about the Baltic States you will use geographical terms that are pleasant to you, such as governorship general, Ostland, etc. - type "the essence does not change from this" (C).
    2. Andy
      Andy 23 March 2021 12: 15
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      The author clearly needs to identify himself - Russian Rakovor or Chukhonskoe Rakvere

      I do not know the namesake for what you got mad at the author. the reader will find out what a sink / rakvere is ... with this the author has all the rules.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 23 March 2021 13: 10
        +3
        ... I don't know the namesake for what you got mad at the author.


        Obviously from a long-standing habit. laughing

        Good afternoon, Andrey. smile
      2. ee2100
        23 March 2021 13: 37
        +2
        After gaining independence in Estonia, a lot of geographical names were changed and the emphasis was on the Estonian language.
        Rakvere replaced the old Weisenberg.
        A word from two roots. Cancer - I don't know its origin and "vere" literally "blood"
        The first root is consonant with the old Russian name 'Rakovor'.
        The second root is often found in the names of settlements in the meaning of "community, community" for example: Venevere- (Venevere) literally "Russian blood", but it is understood that Russians lived here.
        Arbavere, Palmieri, etc.
  14. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 14: 41
    +5
    I'm very sorry I didn't notice this article yesterday. I regret even more that it was published in Opinions and not in History in the evening and not in the morning. This would allow me to stomp on it as it should in hot pursuit, and not after a certain amount of time.
    But anyway, I'll try, though, I'm afraid the volume will turn out, commensurate with the volume of the article.
    First.
    There are two descriptions of the same event. It remains only to interpret all this correctly, based on primary sources, logic, personal experience, common sense, knowledge of the area, etc.

    If everything were that simple, there would be no disputes on historical topics at all. They read it, interpreted it correctly - and the order. Logic and common sense, as well as personal experience (each has his own, by the way) and knowledge of the area (each, again, his own) rule. So, however, it will not work, or rather, it will be a personal opinion, of which different people may have a hundred and a thousand.
    With regard to this article, the author believes that it is enough for him to read only two (!) Sources, and in translation, and he is already well-versed in the matter to form and express his opinion.
    Let's see what this leads to.
    So, the Novgorodians set off on a hike, but halfway through (on Dubrovna) a strife begins and the direction of the campaign changes. Does the author know where this Dubrovna is? It cannot be found on the map; the sources do not say anything about it. This issue cannot be dealt with without involving other sources. It is good that there are such people - historians who found out that Dubrovna was located in the upper reaches of the Lovat River - one and a half hundred kilometers from Novgorod to the south.
    That is, the Novgorodians walked in the direction of Polotsk, although initially some of them wanted to go "for the Narova", that is, to Rakovor, but then changed their minds and nevertheless decided to go to Rakovor. Why? The author, without any hesitation, without bothering himself with the search for an answer to this question, comes up with a kind of "news". Before the start of the campaign, this news had not yet reached them, or what? Then why, even before the start of the campaign, part of the Novgorodians wanted to go “for the Narova”? Neither NPL nor LRH have answers to this question, but they are in other sources. Need to study them? It is necessary. But the author believes that it is not necessary. Okay, his will.
    Then carbon monoxide trash generally begins.
    From the chronicle it is known that the Order is sending an embassy headed by Lazor Moiseevich to Novgorod.

    What? And, I forgot, the author only reads two sources. Well, I notify him that Lazar Moiseevich is not at all the Master of the Order, which the author, apparently through a misunderstanding, calls Livonian. Lazar is a Novgorod boyar who is repeatedly mentioned in chronicles in connection with the dispatch of embassies by Novgorod to various lands, mainly to the Russian princes. And then he was sent to Riga, where he was present when the Germans took the oath that they would not help the Danes.
    So the author's further "most likely" is also sewn with beautiful snow-white threads.
    When, obsessed with the desire for revenge, the Novgorodians rushed towards Rakvere, then, most likely, their path ran through the Dorpat bishopric and partly through the territory of the Livonian Order. This is indeed the shortest route from Novgorod to Rakvere.

    The author had no time to study a little literature on the ancient paths of the Novgorod land, otherwise he would have known about the so-called. "Vodskaya road", which passed through Tesov and further along the river. Meadows to Koporye and to Kolyvan - Tallinn with a crossing in the Narva region. This is the shortest and most well-trodden path.
    The way to Pskov and then along the eastern shore of Lake Peipsi is the fruit of the same mistake.
    Now for common sense. Does the author imagine the volume of water carried by a river like Narva? How then, from the point of view of "common sense", will he explain to us this passage:
    Local residents say that before the construction of the Narvskaya GRES, the river often dried up in this place in summer.

    River? Narva? It carries out ALL water into the Gulf of Finland, which enters Lake Peipsi from rivers, streams and streams flowing into it, including the rivers Velikaya, Zhelchu, Emajõgi ... This is what should have happened so that these rivers all at once dry up and stop supplying water into the lake from which Narva flows? Where is common sense?
    Next.
    considering that when laying roads in those days they tried to avoid water obstacles (rivers) as much as possible

    The rivers cannot be avoided, they are long. You can only find a convenient place for the crossing and looked for them, as a rule, upstream, where there is less water. We avoided swamps and forests. Therefore, roads were often laid along rivers along the edge of the length. Moreover, it was along the rivers that people most often settled.
    The Novgorod army went to Rakovor along the beaten track along the Luga, crossed the Narva in Rugodiva (present-day Narva), immediately invading Danish possessions, without touching the German lands, as was stipulated by the agreement with the Germans.
    Further in the article are the author's assumptions based on his "common sense", not confirmed by any sources at all.
    The river flowing in the immediate vicinity of this point is now called Sõmeru. And earlier it was Kѣgola in the Russian version.

    Oh how. Where does this conclusion come from? People argue - where is Kegola? - and the author is like this, once, and everything decided. It is not clear only on the basis of what. Not sure, but Coyle's name sounds more like Kegol to me. And Koila is a village located on the banks of the river. Pada, on which, as historians believe (which the author does not read), the Rakovor battle took place.
    Well, then there is about the number and the course of the battle ... I will not analyze. I've written enough, as for me. Who wants to - can read my article here on VO, it is true, it was published under a different nickname many years ago. It is called "Rakovor battle. Forgotten victory". There, I probably did a little bit with numbers, but at least relied on the opinions of authoritative researchers. However, I think, if I was mistaken, it was not much. Thousands, ten on each side, I think there was.
    The author, Alexander, dear, I have already told you more than once that logic, common sense and personal experience cannot lead you to something correct if you do not have the appropriate knowledge base. Read, study, develop this base and only then try to conduct independent research. So far, your efforts are not impressive, because they are replete with the stupidest and most obvious mistakes.
    1. El Barto
      El Barto 23 March 2021 15: 19
      0
      There were even two main roads along the Luga (according to modern names, to make it easier to visualize on the map) - (1) Luga - Osmino - Kingisepp - Ivangorod
      (2) Plows / Plyussa - Lyady - Vyskatka - Kingisepp - Ivangorod

      On the first campaign, from the south, most likely they walked along the second road (by the way, it was along this road that the Germans transferred tanks from near Luga to Kingisepp in 1941)

      On the second trip - along the first, straight road
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 15: 37
        +3
        In the XNUMXth century, the road in question along the hill through Osmino has not yet been traced.
        In the period before the "take-off to the hills", that is, the transfer of the main agricultural activity from the river valleys to the watersheds, the main routes ran in the immediate vicinity of the rivers. Vodskaya road is a path in the direction (I give modern names) Novgorod - Yam-Tesovo - Tolmachevo - Hotnezha - Bolshoi Sabsk - Kaibolovo - Koporye, as the final point, the breeding center of Vody. Probably, from Kaibolovo there could have been a direct route to Narva through Kingisepp (which then did not exist smile )
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 15: 43
          +4
          Probably, from Kaibolovo there could have been a direct route to Narva through Kingisepp (which then did not exist

          Taki yes, Yam (modern Kingisepp), a small stone checkpoint on the eastern bank of the Luga, was founded in 1384. They built it right away in stone. They drove a lot of people, and the blessing for the construction was given by the archbishop of Novgorod, Vladyka Alexei, so we did it in 33 days! good This is not Roskosmos for you! Maybe then the rockets did not fly yet, but they built quickly, if Vladyka prayed especially diligently! wink
          In general, one can trace the expansion of the Russian lands in the North-West by the time of the construction of the fortresses. Koporye - 13th century, Yam - to the west - already 14th century, Ivangorod - even west - 15th century. drinks
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 15: 52
            +3
            Koporye is much older. In the XIII century. there only the Germans began to build a stone fortress.
            Kaibolovskoe settlement is also much older - XI century, possibly earlier. There are several more lost and forgotten settlements in the dense forests there - a whole chain from Koporye to Gdov. In general, the border of the Novgorod possessions proper already by the end of the XNUMXth century. formed along the river. Narva - further there were dependent territories that were not directly governed by Novgorod. And the chain of these fortifications controlled this very territory.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 16: 25
              +4
              Koporye is much older.

              Without a doubt. People lived there, which means that there was some kind of settlement there. drinks
              In the XIII century. there only the Germans began to build a stone fortress.

              Yes, I will. The Germans began to build a checkpoint, but they were driven out into the cold. request
              There are several more lost and forgotten settlements in the dense forests there - a whole chain from Koporye to Gdov.

              I don’t know how it is now, but earlier they were drawn in wikimapia in the area of ​​the road, EMNIP, from Kotlov in the direction of modern Ust-Luga. soldier
              In general, the border of the Novgorod possessions proper already by the end of the XNUMXth century. formed along the river. Narva - further there were dependent territories that were not directly governed by Novgorod.

              At the turn of the 14-15th centuries, border disputes were jointly dealt with by the mayor Yama and the forecourt of Narva.
              The Koporye fortress is unique in that it is the only one in the North-West that has survived a lifting lattice - gersa. Unfortunately, the arch collapsed last year, which I learned from my colleague in the VO, Leonid "The Keeper" (sorry he doesn't come!), And then I met Sergei Mikhailov, who is a wonderful member of our company. The arch has not yet been restored, there is no access to the inside of the fortress. sad
              Entrance to Koporye, March 2019. Filmed mine.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 16: 40
                +3
                Is it really impossible to get inside the fortress now? Did not know...
                1. El Barto
                  El Barto 23 March 2021 16: 54
                  +2
                  Prohibited, because the danger of collapse. But the youth creeps through
                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 17: 03
                  +4
                  Is it really impossible to get inside the fortress now? Did not know...

                  I checked the info on their website a month ago. You can't get in, unfortunately. Koporyu has no luck at all. Until 2001 (museumification), the fortress was simply falling apart, and no one needed it. There is a snapshot from Shpakovsky's book, where Koporye was captured in the late 1990s. "Overgrown" ... drinks
                  By the way - as we remember, Yam began to fall apart by itself by the beginning of the 80s of the 17th century, which is why the Swedes blew it up, out of harm's way, otherwise "suddenly a stone will hit the head" (except for Detinets, the oldest part of the fortress, which was dismantled already under Catherine II).
                  So, in 2011 in Koporye it was possible to penetrate the towers - two at the entrance, and in the Srednaya one. In 2014, this could no longer be done. In 2019, it was possible to enter only a part of the Northern Tower, and the tomb of the Zinovievs - it is strange that there was a tomb, but they were buried nearby, in the courtyard. request
                  In general, I would like the restoration of the fortress to be dealt with more closely! hi
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 23 March 2021 18: 45
                    +2
                    Koporyu has no luck at all. Until 2001 (museumification), the fortress was simply falling apart, and no one needed it. There is a snapshot from Shpakovsky's book, where Koporye was captured in the late 1990s. "Overgrown"

                    Yes, I was there several times, including in the 90s. Previously, it was simply abandoned, I remember barbecues were fried: nearby, of course, not in the fortress. The last time was five years ago, they were still allowed and even had excursions. The museum was announced, but the restoration was never undertaken, which is very sad. But let's hope that, like Izborsk, they will restore it. hi
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 10: 38
                      +3
                      But let's hope that, like Izborsk, they will restore it.

                      I would very much like to, Sergei! Izborsk is simply brilliant, there is a whole historical and ethnographic village there. We have been there four times in the last year alone.
                      In Koporye, now, instead of a dull booth with a ticket collector, a new building has been rebuilt in front of the entrance. What prevents the museum from doing? Even Kingisepp has a local history museum with ancient weapons. good
                      This is how the interior of the North Tower of Koporya looked like in March 2019:

                      That is, the following. Create a small museum with exhibits. Develop routes along Koporka. Do not forget the Zinoviev park! At the same time, tell about Orest Kiprensky, as well as Zinoviev Jr. and impressionable Japanese Sataro. The cherry on the cake is a memorial to the fallen soldiers, and a story about Koporye during the Civil and Great Patriotic War. It should be enough for a couple of hours, but not more. Provide food! drinks
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 24 March 2021 11: 15
                        +2
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        What prevents the museum from doing?

                        Nikolay, I agree with everything: there would be a wonderful tourist route and very close to St. Petersburg (Izborsk is much further), given the fact that we have one or two stone fortresses, I think it would be very popular. But it takes many, many millions to recover. Probably someday they will, but when?
                      2. El Barto
                        El Barto 24 March 2021 17: 41
                        +1
                        Why is it so dismissive "even in Kingisepp"? By the way, a city with a long and heroic history
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 09: 19
                        +1
                        Why is it so dismissive "even in Kingisepp"? By the way, a city with a long and heroic history

                        Alexey, this is my favorite city in the region, which I discovered for myself. drinks I know the history of the fortress well, despite the fact that it is the only fortress in the North-West of Russia that has not been preserved in stone. Moreover, it is the main stronghold of defense in the late 14th - early 15th centuries, which withstood a bunch of sieges, including the use of artillery from both sides (see my other comments).
                        Therefore, I have never felt any disdain for this city from a historical point of view. The word "even" refers rather to the modern stage of development - the town gives the impression of being rather poor. hi Well, that will all change over time.
                        There is another unique monument in Kingisepp - on the western bank of the Luga there is Romanovka Park, where General Bistrom, the hero of the War of 1812, is buried. On his grave stands a lion by Klodt. More such (grave monuments) have never been erected to anyone! My photo, March 2017.
                      4. El Barto
                        El Barto 25 March 2021 14: 44
                        +1
                        Good afternoon,

                        Actually, why should this city be rich? All the same, not Vyborg or Vsevolozhsk.
                        The history of the region is very interesting and eventful, it is also interesting in cultural and archaeological aspects.
                        Moreover, the most interesting thing is that this region is associated with almost all significant events in Russian history - from "Doryurik" to modern times. And traces of these events can be found there.
                        For me, by the way, the history of Kingisepp in the 20th century is no less interesting. It generally stands out among other regional cities.
                        The history of the events of the revolution and civil war in these places is interesting. The history of the Great Patriotic War is interesting (for some reason, the fact that the key battles on the Luga line did not take place in the direction of Plyussa-Luga, but in the Kingisepp area, and it was there that the Leningrad militia fought) did not take root in the mass consciousness.
                        Interestingly, during the battles of the Second World War, the city was completely destroyed. In the entire city, one single building has survived. After the war, it was completely rebuilt.
                        Its post-war history is also interesting - when the Phosphorite plant was being built, specialists from all over the Union came there for it. As a result, it turned out that it was they and their families who made up the majority of the population of the "new" Kingisepp. And for this reason, the population of Kingisepp as a whole differs from other regional cities in educational and cultural level (perhaps this explains the fact that Kingisepp has become a kind of "regional center" of the subregion).
                        The post-Soviet history of this city deserves special words. You can write a book about this, how the whole city, having been left without work, somehow organized itself, established contacts and organized the ferrying of used cars from Lithuania to St. Petersburg. There was a decade when all car markets in St. Petersburg were occupied by Kingiseppians, and almost every second car was brought by them. Plus an incredible number of taxi drivers - in Kingisepp it was cheaper to get by taxi than to walk on foot.

                        In general, an interesting place.
                      5. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 15: 09
                        +3
                        In general, an interesting place.

                        I agree completely. At the end of 2015, at the entrance to the city, an elk crossed the road to me. yes Are you from Kingisepp? drinks
                        The local history museum in this city is very cozy, there are also various circles.
                        For me, by the way, the history of Kingisepp in the 20th century is no less interesting. It generally stands out among other regional cities.

                        A separate room in the museum is dedicated to the "Yamburg Karl Bulle" - V.V. Fedorov. Filmed from 1912 to 1950s. He loved to go to clients in a cab, for which he received the nickname "Count Kolyaskin". It is a pity that his photo can hardly be found in the public domain, but there are a lot of them in the hall.
                        This photo is from the same room, but it is unlikely that Fedorov took it. Kolomiets has the best quality. But I had to take pictures through glass.

                        But the signature is wrong. It is not an armored train that is depicted, but a rare armored car from Bratolyubov's workshop on a Russo-Balta chassis. These armored cars turned out to be so unsuccessful that they were not allowed to the front, but the revolutionary forces fully used them - for the same protection.
                        Interestingly, during the battles of the Second World War, the city was completely destroyed. In the entire city, one single building has survived. After the war, it was completely rebuilt.

                        I glimpsed the military hall of the museum - I had to leave. But, it seems, the Germans managed to bloody "fool around" before leaving - they destroyed many residents.
                        Regarding the release of Kingisepp, it is worth noting the fact that the finishing blow was delivered through the Luga (opposite Romanovka, somewhere in the area of ​​the modern sports base from the other side). EMNIP, even the tanks went on the ice. The Germans wavered ... By the way, the marks of the war are clearly visible on the pedestal of the monument to Bistrom. And the story of the lion traveler is generally a miracle.
                        There is also a burial place for soldiers of the Estonian Corps in Kingisepp. More than a hundred of them never reached Estonia.
                        In general, I love this city ...
                        https://topwar.ru/119690-krepost-yam-gorod-kingisepp.html
        2. ee2100
          24 March 2021 08: 57
          +3
          Kaporier was about 4 years ago. Then they were allowed to enter the territory of the fortress only as part of an excursion. Archaeologists worked on the territory of the fortress.
          Indeed, at this place there was an attempt by the order to gain a foothold and most likely they built a temporary wooden settlement,
          in 1241 Alexander Yaroslavovich explained to them that they were wrong and that this was not their territory. The Germans agreed with his arguments and departed in the direction of modern Estonia.
          Why on this place the Novgorodians built a fortress for me is a mystery. She did not carry any boundary load.
          Yam on the Luga, but a 100% border fortress.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 10: 25
            +3
            Why on this place the Novgorodians built a fortress for me is a mystery. She did not carry any boundary load.

            One gets the impression that it was built as a point equidistant from the road to Novgorod and from the bay. Apparently, to maneuver forces and means. I don't see any other reason to put the fortress in that place.
            Archaeologists worked on the territory of the fortress.

            In 2019, single tourists were already allowed in, but most of the courtyard was enclosed - not to get into. Here is a view from the tomb of the Zinovievs along the eastern wall. March 2019, filmed mine.

            First, they fenced off the gravestones of the Zinovievs, and then they were already digging. There, along the wall, there have historically been various structures, including warehouses, cellars, and so on. There was also a secret passage between the Srednaya and Nugolnaya towers.

            And here's the old plan:
            1. ee2100
              24 March 2021 10: 32
              +4
              I understand why the order needed a fortress here, and Novgorod most likely just to take this promising place. Do not plant ivan tea laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 11: 03
                +4
                Do not plant ivan tea

                Well, why? wink In the 19th century in Russia there was a grandiose scandal associated with the counterfeiting of tea - in the sense that instead of normal Chinese tea, Ivan tea was sold, and domestic cabinetmakers even forged Chinese wooden boxes in which tea was actually sold. lol However, it is better to ask Sergey "Korsar4", he is in the subject. drinks
                About Ivan-tea as well. Once a year in Koporye, the festival "Koporskaya fun" is held in summer. Folk crafts, fortune-tellers, contests and KVN - right in front of the eastern wall, in the lowland. Last year, of course, it was not held! And how many types of willow tea are sold there .. With various herbs and other things .. Delicious! good
                and Novgorod most likely just to take this promising place.

                It is necessary to clarify why they did this. But for a reason. what
                1. ee2100
                  24 March 2021 11: 08
                  +3
                  when I was in the fortress, the guide only talked about tea.
                  "It is necessary to clarify why they did it that way. But for a reason."
                  I think there was an idea how to use this place, and then something did not grow together
                2. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 18
                  +3
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  About Ivan-tea

                  I heard that Ivan tea was at one time a very serious export item for Russia, and then the British pushed us out of the market with ordinary tea. True, I did not check the information. drinks
                3. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 24 March 2021 20: 04
                  +5
                  A bit of a story. Good Job 'Tea and Tea Trade' Subbotina.
                4. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 09: 26
                  +3
                  A bit of a story. Good Job 'Tea and Tea Trade' Subbotina.

                  Ah, we had a good chat! drinks This is what normal company means. Soul reckoned on knowledge. good
                5. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 11: 00
                  +2
                  Yes. The truth came to a nodding analysis. But you can always come back.
                6. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 11: 09
                  +4
                  Yes. The truth came to a nodding analysis. But you can always come back.

                  Yes, I also come to the nodding analysis. Shpakovsky is now usually published in the evening, and I rarely go in the evening. recourse Samsonov today unsubscribed according to Paul, and, I must say, not so much and lied. Oh, it's a pity that all the literature is at my place! drinks
                7. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 11: 22
                  +2
                  Each day has its own tone.

                  I see individual articles scattered from the newspaper issue.

                  And who will gather on the bench to discuss and which issue of the newspaper will be blown in by the wind is always a bit of a mystery.
                8. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 11: 28
                  +4
                  And who will gather on the bench to discuss and which issue of the newspaper will be blown in by the wind is always a bit of a mystery.

                  The main thing is to discuss thoughtfully and intelligently, and not throw out emotions like grandmas on a bench. laughing This article by Alexander raised questions from a number of our esteemed interlocutors. hi But! Alexander provided us with a wonderful platform for communication, where everyone could chat a lot! good That is, it is even important not to discuss what, but how and with whom. Remember how Professor Preobrazhensky spoke about food? drinks
                9. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 13: 30
                  +3
                  I remember. And about the Soviet newspapers before dinner too.

                  Emotions can also be. It's a pretty good seasoning. Dosage question.
                  And you can't guess which thought will find its place in the mosaic.
                10. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 13: 45
                  +4
                  Emotions can also be. It's a pretty good seasoning. Dosage question.

                  Some substitute them for the very subject of the conversation. request
                11. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 14: 40
                  +3
                  Conversation is like a river delta - it can go in different directions.
                12. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 14: 44
                  +4
                  Conversation is like a river delta - it can go in different directions.

                  Straight poetry! good
                  I sit with a bowl by the sakura.
                  I pretend to drink tea.
                  But in a bowl - sake. I'm cunning!
                  wink drinks
                13. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 15: 09
                  +3
                  Hanami. In hand
                  Bowl. And in it sake.
                  Perestroika is a mother.
                14. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 25 March 2021 15: 17
                  +4
                  Perestroika is a mother.

                  Crackling ass from the strain.
                  The area of ​​abuse on the forum spreads.
                  Samsonov wrote about superethnos ...
                  lol
                15. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 25 March 2021 18: 35
                  +2
                  Michael, Trilobite is the owner.
                  I plunged into Zen ...
                  A lonely superethnos stands.

                  It's time to go home. I will not build syllables correctly.
  15. Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 20
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    And how many types of Ivan tea are sold there .. With various herbs and other ..

    Recently bought in the market by weight of Ivan-tea, the price is about the same as for ordinary tea. My wife did not like it, but I drink sometimes, for me it looks very much like ordinary tea. hi
  16. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 22
    +4
    My wife did not like it, but I drink sometimes, for me it looks very much like ordinary tea.

    Here, the taste and color! request We are constantly buying and drinking with pleasure. drinks
  17. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 11
    +2
    And we do it ourselves. Not every year, but we collect, ferment, dry ... Since the year before last, there is still "Koporsky tea" left ...
  18. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 16: 15
    +3
    And we do it ourselves. Not every year, but we collect, ferment, dry ... Since the year before last, there is still "Koporsky tea" left ...

    Our friends do this - they collect, ferment ... yes Anton knows them - they all "used culturally" together. drinks When will the river open up, Mikhail? crying
  19. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 25
    +2
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    When the river opens up

    It depends on what. smile
    Some for a long time, some did not freeze at all, and some just about or in a month ... smile
  20. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 16: 31
    +3
    Some for a long time, some did not freeze at all

    If you are talking about Volkovka, then you won't even catch a rotan there, I think - the river looks absolutely dead ... recourse Let's wait until it thaws in my Southwest! drinks I've mapped out a couple of places to go ... yes
  21. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 34
    +2
    The video that I sent you yesterday was filmed in March this year. smile
    Considering the favorite places of its author, I dare to assume that he was fishing on one of the tributaries of the Luga in its middle reaches.
  22. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 16: 40
    +4
    Considering the favorite places of its author, I dare to assume that he was fishing on one of the tributaries of the Luga in its middle reaches.

    He fished wonderfully well! yes Last year I wandered around the forums of fishermen, for a year I laid out a map where he fished on Kovashi. A certain place in the forest is circled in red on the map, caption: "Carefully, in the spring I met a bear here". laughing
  23. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 54
    +2
    To meet a bear now is to get rid of constipation. People's sign. laughing
    And so, I think, if you feel itching, you can ride along rivers such as Limovzha, in the Mazanoy Gorka area, Vruda ... Closer to Peter - Izhora at its source (where it is still chmsty), Paritsa is Gatchina. Fast rivers with spring water - for sure, yes one hundred percent, have already opened, if at all frozen and you can catch it. The question is - will you catch ... smile
  24. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 17: 33
    +3
    To meet a bear now is to get rid of constipation. People's sign.

    With a glance ... Inexpensive ... wink drinks Yes, I will know, thanks!
  25. Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 March 2021 20: 08
    +3
    Yes. Everywhere has its own traditions of tea counterfeiting. In St. Petersburg, they added fireweed (Ivan tea). He's Koporye tea. In Moscow, dormant tea was collected. I will once again refer to Subbotin's detailed summary.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 15: 59
    +3
    It is believed that in the XIII century. The Koporskaya fortress stood on the shores of the Gulf of Finland, and the mouth of the Koporka was the most convenient harbor. I have not found normal scientific literature on this subject in which geologists would confirm or deny the possibility of such a rapid retreat of the coastal edge. Rather, such a rapid "rise" of the coast - the whole layer. There was only some work devoted to the origin of the Narva waterfalls, in which this uplift was mentioned as one of the reasons for their occurrence. In general, the hypothesis is as follows.
    In the XIII century. the way up the Narva was, in general, navigable, the present Narva was located directly on the seashore, and Lake Peipsi was a couple of meters lower than it is now. As a result of this local uplift of the coast, due to some geological reasons (for me, a dark forest), the riverbed of Narva was practically blocked at some point and the lake began to fill up. Having reached a critical point, the waters of Narva poured back into the bay, at the place of the breakthrough and waterfalls formed.
    If so, then why is such a catastrophe not reflected in the available sources? Or did everything happen gradually and there was no sharp breakthrough?
    But, in general, if we state that there really was such an uplift, and Koporye was indeed a seaport, its significance for the region will be simply enormous, especially given the absence of convenient harbors on the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland.
    1. ee2100
      24 March 2021 16: 34
      +2
      There are many works by hydrologists who prove that the Baltic Sea, well, the Gulf of Finland has become very shallow. And just in the 13th century the sea was still "full-flowing".
      Lake Peipsi is located 30 m above sea level. In Tallinn, on Pobeda Square, the excavated remains of a dwelling are visible under glass and it is said that it was a fisherman's hut.
      Considering that the hut was next to the sea, the sea level dropped by 10 meters.
      I read the study of Latvian scientists, they claim that the sea has sunk even lower, about 15 -20 meters.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 41
      +2
      This is not about shallowing the bay, not about falling water levels, but about raising the coast. The level of the world ocean, of which the Baltic Sea is a part, did not change significantly during this period, as did the essence of the law on communicating vessels. smile
    3. ee2100
      24 March 2021 17: 02
      +1
      Some scientists argue that the Baltic Sea was a lake in the recent past.
    4. El Barto
      El Barto 24 March 2021 17: 51
      0
      Eeee? What kind of scientists are they? Scientists just argue that Ladoga used to be part of the Baltic (even during the late Neolithic)
    5. ee2100
      24 March 2021 17: 53
      +1
      And they write about this too
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 17: 58
    +1
    How could it be a lake, if the water in it, according to your own words, was 10 m higher? Where is your vaunted common sense?
    And "in the vicinity" - this is when?
  • ee2100
    24 March 2021 18: 10
    +2
    It is believed that it was a lake earlier, and I am writing about the 13th century.
    read carefully
  • El Barto
    El Barto 24 March 2021 18: 21
    +2
    In this regard, studies of Europeans are interesting. Researchers of the Neolithic of northern Europe came to the conclusion that the level of the North and Baltic Seas was then much higher, the territory of present-day Denmark, Holland, North Germany was a half-flooded territory with a chain of islands. Actually, Scandinavia was an island
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 18: 27
    +1
    The water level could be the same. The earth was rising.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 March 2021 20: 10
    +2
    Is this considered a terrain change?
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 16: 35
    +3
    But, in general, if we state that there really was such an uplift, and Koporye was indeed a seaport, its significance for the region will be simply enormous, especially given the absence of convenient harbors on the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland.

    Yes, if that happened, we should have known. Although the nearest coast of the bay from Koporye is 13-15 km along the highway now. It was possible to move on foot in four hours, on horseback - much faster.
    And regarding the change of the sea - here is the Argassi bridge on Zakynthos. Built at the very beginning of the 19th century, across the river. Now it is "in the sea", but I didn’t notice the mouth of the river itself ... request
  • El Barto
    El Barto 24 March 2021 18: 06
    +1
    The presence of a convenient harbor alone does not make the place a convenient port. It also needs convenient transport links with further points of communication on land. In the 13th century, such routes of communication could only be water (rivers). In this regard, Koporye was not of particular interest - no matter how full of water Koporka was in ancient times, it is a road to nowhere, to deep forests and swamps. Overloading on land transport in those days did not make economic sense with a shoulder of more than 60 km. That is, if there was a port, it was of a purely local value. What could be an additional factor in relation to the administrative and military significance of the castle
  • El Barto
    El Barto 24 March 2021 17: 47
    0
    “... according to F.O. Tumansky,“ those traveling by sea see Koporye 40 miles away. ”However, the proximity to the coast only further strengthened the land value of Koporye. Possession of Koporye meant not only control over the roads, but also over the Izhora Upland. These circumstances and determined the role of Koporye as a militarily strategic point and as an administrative and economic center of the district ... "

    Very simply, this is not a border fortress, but a castle that controls the coast and the corresponding territory.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 March 2021 20: 05
    +3
    It will grow itself.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 24 March 2021 11: 22
    +3
    Quote: ee2100
    Why on this place the Novgorodians built a fortress for me is a mystery. She did not carry any boundary load.

    I do not agree with you: I did. The only fortress that covered the Novgorod lands from the northwest. Near the Gulf of Finland with several convenient bays (now in one of them is the modern port of Ust-Luga), that is, the risk of being transported by sea really existed. Threats from this direction also appeared periodically. Plus - it is the administrative center of the district, and what kind of center is it if it is not fortified. These lands are quite good by local standards and it is very reasonable to have a fortified center here. hi
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 11: 55
      +3
      that is, the risk of being transported by sea really existed.

      The first siege of Yama took place in 1395, 11 years after its construction. And not by the Germans, but by the Swedes! That is, the feeling that they were walking up the Luga. request I could be wrong, but then the Livonians owned Narva. Where do the Swedes come from then? Only from the bay along the Luga.
      In 1395, the Swedes unsuccessfully approached "a new town near the Yama, and Prince Konstantin (Belozersky)" beat up some others from the town, but ran away from others. " Two years later, seven villages in the vicinity of the city were subjected to a German raid, but the case did not come to a direct attack on the fortress.
      http://nwfortress.ifmo.ru/kreposti/yamgorodskaya-krepost
      In the XV century. Fortress Koporye transferred Yam its functions as the administrative center of the region.
      That is, it turns out that the center was the fortress "in the second row". The 15th century is the building of Ivangorod. Yam automatically becomes the second line of defense. Before that, the second strip was Koporye. If I am mistaken in my logical conclusions, correct it.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 06
        +3
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        If I am mistaken in my logical conclusions, correct it.

        There is no objection on my part.
        From the northwest, the Swedes were the first to threaten, but the Germans could have transferred troops here by sea, they had the opportunity. Therefore, it seems to me that Koporye is very reasonably set.
        That is, it turns out that the center was the fortress "in the second row". The 15th century is the building of Ivangorod. Yam automatically becomes the second line of defense.

        The system of defensive fortresses is a necessary condition for the control of the territory, especially the newly acquired one. Let us recall the Livonian War (or, as they say now, the Livonian Wars) - immediately the construction of fortresses and fortified points (if they do not exist), without this the territory cannot be held. hi
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 21
          +5
          immediately the construction of fortresses and fortified points (if they do not exist), without this the territory cannot be held.

          Direct analogies are the border with the Steppe, forts in Siberia, the war in the Caucasus. Fortresses were built immediately.
          In the Russian-Turkish wars of the late 18th - early 19th centuries, it was the Turkish fortresses that caused our main hemorrhoids. It took time to capture them.
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 24
          +3
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          Direct analogies are the border with the Steppe, forts in Siberia, the war in the Caucasus. Fortresses were built immediately.

          That is exactly how, let us remember, for example, how they took Kazan.
          And here the defensive lines were slowly pushed back to the west, the old fortresses, respectively, were already in the rear. hi
        3. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 26
          +5
          And here the defensive lines were slowly pushed back to the west, the old fortresses, respectively, were already in the rear.

          And competing firms also pushed in our direction their frontiers. When the intermediate "no-man's land" with expansive local peysans ended, clear borders of states, without buffer zones. hi Apotheosis - Narva and Ivangorod, from each other across the river. fellow
        4. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 32
          +3
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          pofeosis - Narva and Ivangorod, from each other across the river.

          Here is a great example of "meeting on the Elbe" drinks
        5. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 13: 40
          +6
          Here is a great example of "meeting on the Elbe"

          And both sides stared at each other with the muzzles of cannons ... wink
          The very first artillery duel between the besieged Russian city and the invaders was recorded in 1444. The cunning Germans brought the caramults to the Yam. At first they began to swear not in our language, someone even showed a bare pale ass, then they began to shoot. Suddenly, in response, cannonballs also began to fly - from the fortress! belay The Germans pulled up their pants, immediately stopped swearing, but continued to shoot. angry The boxing lasted five days, after which our core fell too well in the enemy camp, and, according to the chronicler: "Their deliberate great overseas cannon ... from the city of rozbisha and potbelly and many good Germans beat down". fellow In general, many "good Germans" (in the sense, "good" not because they came to us with bread, bacon and friendship of peoples, but because, apparently, the killed were prominent professionals in military affairs) turned into minced meat in half with with his overseas deliberate cannon. good The rest retreated. Three years later, the adversaries appeared again, and the siege of Yama continued for 14 days - with the same success.
          However, our people were also convinced that the small stone checkpoint had to be expanded. request As a result, already in 1448 the fortress expanded, and became about nine towers. This is how she looks at us from the picture of O. Kosvintsev in the Kingisepp Museum of History and Local Lore. drinks
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 36
    +3
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    Turkish fortresses and caused our main hemorrhoids. It took time to capture them.

    Moreover, sometimes quite small fortresses brought great trouble to large armies. Recall, for example, the siege of Opochka or the same Porkhov. If the garrison showed firmness, then it was very difficult to take a small fortress, there are many such examples. hi
  • El Barto
    El Barto 24 March 2021 19: 04
    0
    The entire 14th century is a war with the Swedes, not with the Germans. The Germans (by the way, which ones?) Were busy with completely different things. For example, the Duke of Mecklenburg received the Swedish crown as a result of the civil war, then surrendered it to the Danish queen, and Sweden itself was subordinated to the Kalmar Union ... Meanwhile, the Novgorodians not only set up fortresses along the Luga and the southern coast of the bay, but also captured all of Finland up to Oulu where the fortifications were placed. Then, however, they gave the coast of the Gulf of Bothnia to the Swedes, retaining control over the rest of Finland.
    By the way, the Swedes themselves did not mention the raid on Yam in 1395, apparently a minor episode of the general sluggish war
  • ee2100
    24 March 2021 17: 32
    +2
    Everything is correct. The Swedes raided and ran into the fortress on the Luga River. I also write that as a frontier fortress Kaporier zero. The Kaporka River is shallow and does not lead anywhere (forests and swamps)
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 07
    +3
    The Koporye fortress was by no means the only one at that time. There was a whole chain of fortified posts in this region, built, as if not from the time of Mstislav the Great, when he was the prince of Novgorod. The Kaibolovskoe settlement, Voronino settlement, Gdov immediately comes to mind ... Moreover, in any case, the Kaibolovskoe settlement was purely Slavic from the moment of its foundation, while Koporye is still the tribal center of Vody.
    There, above, I wrote to the author about Koporye as a possible seaport. Your opinion on this issue is interesting. smile
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 24 March 2021 16: 37
      +2
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      There was a whole chain of fortified posts in this region,

      Undoubtedly, Koporye was part of the defensive system of the Novgorod volost and was of great importance: to remember that Alexander Yaroslavovich immediately rushed from there to knock out the Germans as soon as they appeared there, all Novgorodians understood perfectly well: you cannot let them catch on here.
      There, above, I wrote to the author about Koporye as a possible seaport. Your opinion on this issue is interesting.

      Honestly, I can't say anything about this: an interesting version, but in the narrative sources it seems like nothing is mentioned about its coastal position. Although this happened in history: remember the Thermopylae Gorge, where now a vast plain and the sea are not even visible. But I do not know. Personally, it seems to me that Koporye is set up a little far from the coast in order to control several possible landing sites at once. hi
  • ee2100
    24 March 2021 16: 38
    +2
    Frontier fortress from whom? At that time, Novgorod did not have worthy opponents.
    A little later they built Yam on Luga, this is really a border fortress.
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 24 March 2021 17: 03
      +2
      Quote: ee2100
      Frontier fortress from whom? At that time, Novgorod did not have worthy opponents.

      In the XIII century? Yes, they only managed to fight back.
      1. ee2100
        24 March 2021 17: 07
        +2
        Who were they fighting off from? We agreed with the Mongols, and they themselves were more aggressors.
        and this article is proof of that
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 24 March 2021 17: 12
        +2
        Quote: ee2100
        Who were they fighting off from? We agreed with the Mongols, and they themselves were more aggressors.

        Swedes, Livonians, Lithuanians, similar neighboring Russian principalities are not always "friendly". And all this for about the 13th century is equal in strength.
        And Novgorod was lucky to come to an agreement with the Mongols.
      3. ee2100
        24 March 2021 17: 23
        +2
        Aleksandr Yaroslavovich once explained to the Swedes and they calmed down for a long time, the Livonians were weak and they themselves were almost never the first to "climb", the Lithuanians made predatory raids, and even then not so often. They waved more with the order.
        And they are neighbors!
  • El Barto
    El Barto 23 March 2021 16: 41
    +2
    The branch to the West along this road was to the south - to Volosovo (there was also the "royal road"), a corner through Kaibolovo-Koporye, a separate branch. Most likely there was no direct road to Narva, as there is not even now.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 23 March 2021 17: 21
      +3
      The branch to the West along this road was to the south - to Volosovo (there was also the "royal road")

      I found a makeshift map of the Novgorod-Narva road, made by a certain comrade:
      https://yandex.ru/maps/?l=sat%2Cskl&ll=29.351366%2C59.447276&mode=usermaps&um=mymaps%3A7ybgCRk4tOQUFza8sfw8EjtMezlA_07G&z=11
      Forum:
      https://www.forum.aroundspb.ru/index.php?t=msg&th=12627&goto=125570
      How close to reality?
      1. El Barto
        El Barto 23 March 2021 18: 15
        +1
        Here is a 16th century road map. There is a fairly substantiated (archeological) opinion that they generally correspond to the roads of earlier times.
        https://www.stena.ee/blog/oldnarva/v-poiskah-starinnoj-ivangorodskoj-dorogi
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 10: 55
          +3
          Here is a 16th century road map. There is a fairly substantiated (archeological) opinion that they generally correspond to the roads of earlier times.

          Thank you so much, Alexey! drinks I was also interested in the road from Novgorod to Pskov. In the summer of 2012, I was driving from Pskov to Novgorod, but a little further north - I turned at Theophilova Hermitage, and drove through Utorgosh and Shimsk. The sensations were ... No. The road is wide and even paved. fellow The question is that it is in such a state as if the Germans had bombed it, and has not yet repaired it. We had to crawl several tens of kilometers along the side of the road - literally. The radio does not catch, there is a forest around, villages are very rare and for one and a half people ... belay After the Bear, however, at the very least, it was already possible to accelerate.
          By the way, do you know what makes the Bear special?wink Japanese prisoners were kept there during the Russo-Japanese War. And very well kept! drinks
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 24 March 2021 11: 51
            +2
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            In the summer of 2012, I was driving from Pskov to Novgorod, but a little further north - I turned at Theophilova Hermitage, and drove through Utorgosh and Shimsk. The sensations were ...

            Last summer (2020) I traveled this road: first to Staraya Russa, then to Novgorod. Now the road Novgorod-Pskov seems to be in good condition, but there are many cameras.
            Japanese prisoners were kept there during the Russo-Japanese War. And very well kept!

            Sushi every day, sake, geisha ... wassat
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 02
              +3
              Last summer (2020) I traveled this road: first to Staraya Russa, then to Novgorod.

              Precisely through the Theophilus Hermitage and Utorgosh?
              Sushi every day, sake, geisha ...

              At least the officers were allowed beer for sure! Ordinary - I don't remember, but you can take a look. drinks
              The soldiers were fed well - much better than in the Japanese army. The food rations did not differ at all from the rations given to a Russian soldier. A lot of hearty porridge, soup, meat and bread - this was the diet of the Japanese in the Bear. The lower ranks were pleased, but they asked very much to replace the unusual semolina with their favorite rice. The officers had much more freedom. What to dress and how to eat, they decided on their own, and the Russian treasury allocated money for their maintenance: for headquarters officers - 900 rubles a year, for chief officers - 600 rubles. Taking into account the fact that, for obvious reasons, they did not have to pay for the apartment, the amount is more than sufficient.
              .....
              Every day, 70 bottles of beer (one per person) and several bottles of strong Russian bread wine were purchased for the command staff. Later, the amount of alcohol by order of the Russian administration was reduced to 30 bottles, as there were complaints about riots organized by drunken Japanese. But after complaints from officers, the number of beer was raised to 40 bottles, and the dispensing of strong alcohol was approved in the amount of one glass of vodka a day.

              Details on warhead.su:
              https://warhead.su/2020/09/20/kak-soderzhali-yaponskih-plennyh-v-nachale-xx-veka-russkie-kanikuly-samuraev
              But the Japanese mother, surrounded by our "jailers" laughing With a bottle! And, it seems, has already grown numb from drunkenness, and looks into the lens, like daimyo at the haimins. lol
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 09
                +2
                Quote: Pane Kohanku

                Precisely through the Theophilus Hermitage and Utorgosh?

                I don’t remember Utorgosh, but we passed Theofilov's hermitage and Shimsk for sure.
                The soldiers were fed well - much better than in the Japanese army.

                And then World War II broke out and everything became completely different.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 23
                  +2
                  And then World War II broke out and everything became completely different.

                  It is considered. that RYAV was the last war with a relatively humane attitude towards prisoners. I would add - the only one ...
                2. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 24 March 2021 12: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  It is considered. that RYAV was the last war with a relatively humane attitude towards prisoners.

                  It seems to me that in World War I it was still relatively humane, at least the mass conscious destruction of prisoners was not engaged in as in World War II
                3. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 12: 36
                  +3
                  It seems to me that in WW1 it was still relatively humane

                  Relatively. But not everywhere, and not always. Alexey Oleinikov once published about the atrocities of the Germans and Austro-Hungarians.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 17: 34
    +2
    There, as the road after Hotnezha left the swamps, there was, in fact, no separate strict road, as far as I understand, there was, rather, a direction from village to village. There were ten different ways to get to Rugodiv (Narva), and the main crossing through the Luga was just in the area of ​​the present Kingisepp, there the river is shallow and it is possible to carry carts along the flagstone in the channel even now in the summer without unloading. And then, of course, without any problems at all - everything was cleared, the entrances to the water on both sides, the ford itself ...
  • ee2100
    23 March 2021 16: 25
    +3
    Good afternoon!
    Thanks for reading my article. (trampled) In your comments, you raised several questions to which I will naturally answer you, but not now due to lack of time.
    It is a pity that yesterday there was no such opponent as you!
    Maybe the truth is somewhere nearby!
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 16: 39
      +3
      Good afternoon.
      I still have a lot of comments. smile
      And last night I was visiting Vaschenko. And in general I am a rare guest on "opinions".
      1. ee2100
        23 March 2021 17: 58
        +2
        Where they put me and I am there laughing
      2. ee2100
        23 March 2021 19: 36
        +2
        Max Vaschenko? Cool! 1000% respect.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 March 2021 20: 22
          +2
          At Eduard Vaschenko's! No less cool!
  • ee2100
    23 March 2021 18: 03
    +1
    Naturally, there are other sources of mention of this battle, and if I mentioned only two, it is because they describe the event most fully.
    I know where the village of Dubrovna is. I will tell you that I have studied quite thoroughly everything connected with this battle.
    No one can explain why the Novgorodians chose Rakvere as their target. There is not a word about this in the annals.
    But back to the episode with a discussion of a potential target for attack.
    Let's extrapolate this situation for our time.
    Imagine that Shoigu, Lavrov, the head of the GRU, and others gathered in the bathhouse and decide who to attack. One suggests Poland, the other Lithuania and Estonia also sounded. And should I believe it?
    Without the knowledge of the main power of Novgorod (veche - mayor), no one will move anywhere.
    You do not question the fact that the event that caused such a reaction among the Novgorodians was out of the ordinary. Thank you anyway. And then some historians write about some kind of oppression of merchants (probably in a dark corner).
    Regarding the "embassy", the Livonian Chronicle is generally silent about this. Those. if we believe in something document do we believe selectively or completely?
    And this story with the "embassy" was initially incomprehensible to me and was associated with an excuse like "they promised not to fight, but then they came and we did not count on it, that is, they deceived us."
    You have to somehow justify your failure.
    Maybe your path to Luga has the right to be, but my task was to determine the path through the territory of Estonia.
    But what I have written about the headwaters of the Narov River is not my idea. The level of Lake Peipsi is 30 m higher than sea level. the northern part of the lake rests against the klint. And that is why the river is very shallow in this section. As local residents said, in 1941 the Germans simply moved to the right bank.
    You do not question my vision of the movement of Russian troops in Estonia
    The popular belief is that the Koila River is the Kegola River. Purely toponymically stretch "by the ears." I do not know such a river flowing into the Pada river.
    There is the Kongla river (left tributary of the Pada river), but the road through it still leads to the place that I indicated. This is at least 25 km from Rakvere (daily crossing). And what normal commander, knowing that he will lose the battle for this, or rather certain death, agree?
    You do not question my assumption about the "spetsnaz" remaining in the rear of the Russian troops.
    But you multiply the number of participants. Is it really based on primary sources?
    It is good that no one mentioned the "cave" where the evil Estonians hid and the three ways in Rakvere.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 March 2021 20: 08
      +3
      Regarding the change in the direction of the first campaign to Rakovor, there is a completely exhaustive explanation that does not require the introduction of additional circumstances, such as "news".
      The Danes who settled in Reval began to claim intermediary functions in the trade of Novgorod with Gotland, that is, a share in this trade. Novgorod did not like it. The idea of ​​restraining the Danes has been ripening for a long time. Moreover, the von Kivel family, which owned the land in the Rugodiva area, behaved aggressively - there were even attempts to seize land on the eastern bank of the Narva. All this together set up Novgorod for a war with the Danes, which became inevitable.
      However, Yaroslav, the Grand Duke, had his own interests in this region, which were concentrated around the Polotsk lands, this is also indirectly mentioned in the sources. Hence the conflict between Yuri Andreevich, as his governor, and Novgorod. Yuri persuaded the Novgorodians to march on Polotsk, while the Novgorodians wanted to act exclusively in their own interests.
      Let's just say that they deceived Yuri - they allowed him to gather his army, but after moving away from the city at a certain distance, they arranged a veche and decided to change the direction of the campaign, forcing, moreover, Yuri, who faced a choice - to abandon the army and return (i.e., to lose Novgorod governorship) or join the campaign. He chose the latter. And no baths and extraordinary news.
      As for the embassy, ​​then it is generally not clear why you suddenly suggested that Lazar Moiseevich could be a German at all or act on their side. This is a natural Novgorod boyar who served Novgorod for a long time, who headed the embassies to the Russian princes.
      The embassy itself, of course, was sent to Novgorod in order to secure its own lands and, possibly, provoke Novgorod into aggressive actions. The Germans, like the Danes, of course, knew about the preparations of the Novgorodians. The defeat of the Novgorod army in Vironia would have played into the hands of literally everyone. The fact that LRH has no information about the embassy is also understandable. Perjury is not something to be proud of, but the chronicle was created precisely in order to be proud.
      The path through the territory of Estonia began in Rugodiva and went straight to Rakovor along the well-known road. "In three ways" means they were divided into three parts and substantively and thoughtfully plundered the land. You don’t think, I hope that the road in Vironia was the only one and the army was walking along it like a string. There are many roads, they converged, diverged from village to village, from farm to farm, so the Russian army snooped back and forth along them, grabbing everything they could get to. The episode with the cave is a clear confirmation of this.
      Regarding the Narva River, I suggest that you include that very common sense. The river carries out from the lake exactly as much water as it enters into this lake - no more, no less. Stories that such a river could dry up otherwise than a fairy tale. It cannot even really become shallow - Lake Peipsi with its volumes to a large extent compensates for any drought or flood.
      Quote: ee2100
      You do not question my vision of the movement of Russian troops in Estonia

      Are you laughing? I bet, of course. smile
      The Russians went straight to Rakovor without going too far south, where even now there are only forests and swamps, there they had nothing to do.
      I'll add it later, an urgent matter. smile hi
      1. ee2100
        24 March 2021 08: 42
        +1
        You say that the reason for the war with the Danes is the desire of the latter to participate in trade. And why was this the reason for the Novgorod aggression? Create favorable economic conditions and the merchants will come to you. All this is perfectly resolved in the course of negotiations. And in Riga and Tallinn there were trade representations of Novgorodians.
        If you think that one of the reasons is the territorial claims of the Danes on the eastern bank of the Narova, then as long as it is just a desire, then it is not a must.
        Based on your reasoning, Tallinn should have been besieged.
        There is an old road that runs along the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland, part of it from Purtse to Linnuse I have described, and it is one. From Purtse in the eastern direction it was really possible to get to Rugodiva along it.
        "In three ways" is the fantasies of the chronicler, as in fairy tales "you will go to the right ... on the left you will go ... you will go straight ahead"
        If you offer another version of the route from Narva to Rakvere, I am ready to consider it. And I assure you that Googl services will not help here.
        The road through Vasknarva towards Estonia is much older than the road through Narva.
        Your version of how Prince Yuri was tricked into changing the direction of aggression is interesting, but not real.
        The one who pays the money calls the tune. If the veche decided to go to Rakvere, the prince was obliged to obey.
        If he refused, he would say goodbye to the reign. And do not deceive anyone.
        The first attempt to take the Rakvere fortress, described in the chronicles, looks like a gamble.
        "And the tsѣlovasha ambassadors cross; and tamo ѣzdiv Lazor Moisievich / l. 144./ led all of them to the cross, piskupov 1 and God's noblemen, as if they did not help them from Kolyvan and rakhorod; and belted their husbands Semavin good from Novaglov . "
        Well, how do you explain this passage from the annals?
        According to your version, the reason for the war is economic. In this case, the weakening of the Danish positions in Estonia should be in the hands of the order, but they are on the side of the Danes, which is not very logical.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 11: 12
          +1
          The reason for any war is economic. Everything else is a reason.
          Quote: ee2100
          Create favorable economic conditions and the merchants will come to you.

          Holy simplicity! .. How do you imagine this "create conditions"? Higher market prices? Less fees at customs? Convenient shopping places under the roof and with heating?
          "Participation in transit trade" means that the volume of turnover has not changed, but it is divided among a larger number of participants. In practice, it looked like this: all merchants sailing past Reval were forced to moor and sell their goods not somewhere, but here, they also determined the price themselves. And they did not shy away from simple piracy.
          Quote: ee2100
          as long as it is just a desire, it is not a requirement.

          Attempts to build a fortification on the eastern bank of the Narva are not just a wish. And it is punishable. Just like the establishment of the Koporye episcopacy, while Koporye is controlled by Novgorod. There are enough reasons for war. Although the main thing, of course, is interference in trade.
          Quote: ee2100
          Based on your reasoning, Tallinn should have been besieged.

          This is from yours. Of mine, it would be somehow rash to lay siege to Revel, having Rakovor not captured in the rear of the communications.
          Regarding "three ways" and "road to Rakvere", I have nothing to add to the previous comment. There was no highway. There was no single road. There was a network of roads connecting settlements. This network could be traversed from one point to another in ten different ways. But there were also "bottlenecks" where the roads were connected, falling into some kind of "defile" created by natural conditions. In the case of the Rokorsky campaign, such a defile was a narrow section between the bay and a wooded-swampy area in the area west of Purtse. At the exit from this defile, the Germans were waiting for the Russians, and this is Viru-Nigula.
          Why should the Russians go to the Kunda region, where you sent them, and the Germans are completely incomprehensible to wait for them there. If the goal of the campaign is Rakovor, then they went to Rakovor, and not God knows where.
          1. ee2100
            24 March 2021 11: 53
            0
            You have some strange idea about the territory of Estonia since the 13th century. "settlements, road network".
            I understand that your idea is yours, but there was only one road from Tallinn to the east and it went along the sea.
            The fact that Russian troops could plunder the local population on the way is yes, but without being distracted from the main goal - moving forward. And in general, when the enemy approached, the entire population was scared into the forests and swamps.
            Your reasoning for choosing an object of attack is not clear, but an article about the place of the battle.
            I understand that you have not been to Viru-Nigula.
            Below are my arguments why this is not the right place.
            1. Which way did the Russian troops come to V-Nigula? I will not hide, there really is an old road, which most likely was in the XIII century, the direction of this road from north to south or vice versa. Now this section of the road overlaps with the Sonda-V-Nigula road. Those. the road led to the seashore.
            2. It is necessary to take into account the terrain. At this point, the banks of the Pada River are quite steep, and if we assume that the knights attacked the Russian troops by the river, then they would all have stayed there. it is impossible to retreat backward - a very steep climb, and even through the snow. It is necessary to turn your back to the enemy when retreating.
            3. Which commander will arrange a general battle 25 - 30 km from his fortress, and besides, the enemy has a numerical superiority.
            4. It is believed that the chapel of Mary was built on the site of the battle. This is mentioned in the Chronicles. They were written in Riga i.e. reports were drawn up on the activities of the Order on the basis of reports from the "places".
            So they linked the construction of a chapel on the bank of a river with a battle that had taken place in the same region on the bank of a river earlier.
            The chronicle also indicates that there were two battles on two rivers.
            In my opinion, the chapel was built as a counterbalance to the ancient temple of the Estonians located on the opposite bank of the Pada River, which is located about 2 km to the south and also next to the road.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 12: 47
              +2
              Quote: ee2100
              there was only one road from Tallinn towards the east and it went along the sea.

              And stringed all the settlements along the way? Did you go like a snake, from the bay to the swamps? I think no. Then the question is: how were the rest of the settlements that do not lie directly on this road connected? There is only one answer - by roads, right?
              Here's what: draw a circle on a piece of paper with ten dots around it in random order and connect them with lines, each to each. Draw another circle next to it, and around it there are also ten points, connected by lines each to each. Connect with lines the two nearest points located near different circles. Here is a road map of medieval Vironia. Count how many ways you can get from the rightmost point to the leftmost point. smile
              Now imagine yourself as Bishop Alexander of Dorpat, bending over this card. You know that the enemies go from the far right point to the far left. Where will you meet these enemies? smile
              And, by the way, in disputes, discussions, etc. I strongly advise against referring to personal experience and exclusive knowledge, which cannot be confirmed or refuted. This is what I mean
              Quote: ee2100
              At this point, the banks of the Pada River are quite steep.

              Quote: ee2100
              I understand that you have not been to Viru-Nigula.

              etc.
              I don't know whether you were there, whether you saw the banks of the Pada, how far, how carefully the banks of the Kunda proceeded, etc., that is, I don’t know how much you can trust your judgments, even if you unconditionally assume that you are absolutely conscientious in formulating them.
              1. ee2100
                24 March 2021 13: 26
                0
                Again you are talking about settlements!
                Name at least a few settlements, besides fortresses, on the territory of Vironia in the 13th century.
                Estonians lived on farms. There was a road from the farm to the farm, and if you call it a network of roads, then continue to think so. There is nothing to say about the condition of these roads. Estonians lived by subsistence farming and for them the fewer contacts the better.
                Naturally, there were roads, but they did not duplicate each other. There were roads from town to town and there were few of them and there were very few travelers, and the journey itself was not safe.
                I myself have lived in Rakvere for 20 years, and since I am still a fisherman, I know the surroundings well, and the Pada River is one of my favorites (I don't like this word). Well-groomed up and down. And now I'm catching it. I know these places.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 14: 24
                  +1
                  Again you about the farms ... In the XIII century. Estonians had not yet settled in farmsteads - the level of knowledge and technology simply did not allow each family to live separately, labor productivity was too low. Yes, plus also security issues ... Against the background of the then feudal anarchy, when only a few dreamed of legality, those who understood what it was, when everyone could take and took everything that he could reach, that he could take away, live separate family in an unfortified farm, far from the community ... Don't tell me. One mob of a dozen Tatei would have slaughtered the entire population of such an Estonia in a couple of years.
                  Estonians settled in farms only when two circumstances coincided, which were completely absent in the XNUMXth century. - the productivity of agricultural labor has grown to the required level (production technology, working tools, etc.), and the spread of a minimum legal culture, the imposition of legality, when the robbery of a neighbor began to be assessed not as a manifestation of daring and valor, but as an illegal act, for which were followed by imminent punishment.
                  And this happened, at the earliest, three hundred years later, after the events described. And before that they lived like everyone else - in villages, communities, clans.
                  Lord, Alexander, read the scientific literature on these issues, there is one, including the one written by Estonian historians ... All these Estonian farms, at most, three hundred years old, the most ancient!
                  1. ee2100
                    24 March 2021 16: 17
                    0
                    We discussed the settlements where the Estonians lived, but you could not name them, the road network across Estonia in the 13th century, but you could not lay at least one route alternative to mine.
                    Become about the place of the battle.
                    I explained to you point by point why the battle site was not in Viru-Nigula.
                    You can also explain to me why you do not like the place indicated by me.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 16: 32
                      +1
                      I can do what you are talking about - write everything down, etc. I am lazy because it will take too long and not worth it.
                      Why don't I like your place?
                      Very simple. The Russians went to Rakovor. The Germans blocked their way. Neither did it make sense to move north where you placed them. There, the Germans did not defend anything from anyone, and the Russians, coming there, would only move away from the goal.
                      If the Germans were exactly where you placed them, the Russians would simply pass by, reach their goal, lay siege to the castle and already determine where they would meet the Germans, choose a place for battle.
                    2. ee2100
                      24 March 2021 16: 57
                      0
                      How simple it is for you! And in addition, contradict yourself, how would the Russians have left a detachment of Germans in their rear?
                      They can't get through the Germans, only through the battle
                    3. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 24 March 2021 17: 54
                      +1
                      Do you not understand the difference between an army associated with the defense of the territory and a stronghold in your rear?
                      Quote: ee2100
                      They can't get through the Germans, only through the battle

                      Germans sitting in the vicinity of Kunda? Why go through them? ”We turned in the direction of Rakovor and went. And the Germans are already forced to catch up with them. After that, they surrounded the castle, set up their own stone throwers (vices - after all, it was stone throwers, by the way, of the trebuchet type), turned around and met the foe in a convenient place for you. And while you wait, you can thoroughly plunder the surroundings, as did Yaroslav on Omovzha. It would be just a gift for the Russians.
                      Unfortunately, the Germans did not provide us with such happiness.
                    4. ee2100
                      24 March 2021 18: 08
                      0
                      You probably didn't read the article carefully. The battle site is 7 km from Rakvere.
                      And the Germans really cannot be bypassed. This is what I am trying to convey to you.
                      Do you have any idea of ​​the widespread road network in the 13th century in Estonia.
                      Why then did they not bypass the Germans? And after the battle, the surroundings were perfectly looted.
                      The Pskov Chronicle mentions that Dovmont returned with rich booty
                      Stay with your opinion.
                2. ee2100
                  24 March 2021 17: 37
                  0


                  The first bridge over the Pada river, and the second over the Kongla river
                3. ee2100
                  24 March 2021 17: 41
                  0
                  Bridges are on the road that I described.
                  The second photo shows the stones overgrown with moss. These stones are almost all round in shape with a diameter of 45 - 50 cm. There are about 20 of them.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 March 2021 11: 35
    +3
    Let's just say that they deceived Yuri - they allowed him to gather his army, but after moving away from the city at a certain distance, they arranged a veche and decided to change the direction of the campaign, forcing, moreover, Yuri, who faced a choice - to abandon the army and return (i.e., to lose Novgorod governorship) or join the campaign. He chose the latter. And no baths and extraordinary news.

    A meeting on a ship, 1917. To lay mines or not. negative
    "In three ways" means they were divided into three parts and substantively and thoughtfully plundered the land.

    Ushkuyniki, only without rooks ... laughing
    1. ee2100
      24 March 2021 12: 02
      +1
      The version with Prince Andrey's deception is very original! wassat
      We must explain the meeting in Dubrovna!
  • Masha Our
    Masha Our April 14 2021 10: 00
    0
    The author did not understand the problem from the word at all. I quote from NPL: "And the ambassadors kiss the cross; and there they went to Lazor Moisievich ..." Translated: and the ambassadors kissed the cross; Lazar Moiseevich also went there. This is a Novgorod boyar who went to Riga to swear in the Order and the bishops. Further from the text it follows that he remained there as a hostage.