Military Review

The tarnished triumph of the Cossack cavalry: the raid of General Mamantov

162
The tarnished triumph of the Cossack cavalry: the raid of General Mamantov

When all the stars came together



If in the XX century somewhere there were ideal prerequisites for a spectacular and truly large-scale horse raid, then this place was the Don steppes of August 1919. A modern meme about Don -

"Lord, how at ease!"

- appeared for a reason. The ground, level as a table, was an ideal field for cavalry operations.

But it was not only the local conditions. Although the Reds were in a far from hopeless, but very, very difficult situation. They actively fought on several fronts, fighting off white offensives, and were to a certain extent connected by these events. There was no need to fear the immediate arrival of mobile reinforcements.

In addition, the Red Army had not yet managed to reach the peak of its power - when perfectly (by the standards of the Civilian, of course) well-equipped and highly disciplined troops drove the Poles out of Kiev with kicks or effortlessly re-conquered the Transcaucasus. Yes, this was no longer 1918 - the order in the Red troops since the time of some Ice Campaign has been brought to a fair amount. But there were still many weak links - there were unreliable units in the Red Army in abundance, ready to run at any moment.

Especially when these "links" were hastily mobilized from peasants who were reluctant before the war. Moreover, this was that rare case when a person with combat experience was even worse than an unshot newcomer - the trench experience of the Great War was often enough for him up to his throat. And, not having time to get to the new duty station, he was already thinking how to escape. Considering that such deserters often huddled in armed gangs of hundreds, and sometimes even a thousand people, it becomes clear that there was something to do with red in this turbulent and unpredictable time.


Konstantin Mamantov

At the same time, the whites had an excellent tool for ripping and operating the red rear swamp - the Cossacks of General Mamantov. The latter was the ideal cavalry commander - brave, decisive, dashing. His people more than once had to beat the Red Army cavalry that had not yet become legendary. The Cossacks did not lack confidence in themselves.

The forces at Mamantov's disposal were selected according to the main principle of any raid -

"Too large to be overwhelmed, compact enough to move quickly."

The general had six thousand sabers, divided into three cavalry divisions, machine guns, horse batteries and three armored cars. Behind these mobile forces was a foot detachment of three thousand Cossacks who remained horseless during the war. They had a relatively powerful artillery fist - 6 guns. And the task is to finish off especially strong knots of resistance, while the horse mass that has bypassed them advances further and captures key points.

Mamantov spat on regular communication from the very beginning. Sometimes a plane came to him with a messenger. And from time to time, the Cossacks transmitted something to the white headquarters from captured radio stations. True, this was done without any special art - without encryption, in plain text. Some of these messages, of course, were intercepted by the Reds, and immediately drew the appropriate conclusions.

A dashing start


In the summer of 1919, the Armed Forces of the South of Russia laid out all the cards on the table. The Whites did everything that their physical and psychological resources allowed (although the qualities of the latter should not be exaggerated) in order to take Moscow, and, if not win the war, then at least achieve a fundamental change.

Raid Mamantov was supposed to directly influence this struggle - releasing the guts of the red rear. A Cossack general could undermine the forces of the Reds and disorganize their actions, strike a blow at the belief in victory and the desire to fight. And in the end, almost decide the outcome of the war.

It all began on August 10, 1919, when the Mamantian forces crossed the Khoper River. Already from the reaction of the Reds, it is clear how conditional the front line was, and how what was happening differed from the recently thundered World War I. The enemy's patrols, of course, saw a horse mass crossing. But, in fact, it did not change much - it was not really possible to react with the existing level of command and control and the number of soldiers covering the front.


One of the bridges blown up by the Cossacks of Mamantov

The result was a tremendous blow to the positions of the 40th Army of the Red Army - the Reds fled from the trenches, leaving a hefty gap of 22 kilometers in the front. This is where Mamantov rushed - ahead of the Cossacks a long and victorious march was waiting for the enemy rear.

This was the main principle of any successful raid. Large and staunch units of the enemy simply could not keep up with the mighty cavalry mass, and small ones, at best, could do the maximum in harassing actions. And everything that came across on the way was fragile to the blow by the rear personnel. Moreover, they are inferior in numbers.

On August 15, Mamantov had already managed to penetrate enough into the red rear. By that time, he had also conducted reconnaissance enough to understand that the largest Red base in the district (Tambov) was left practically without protection. So, we need to move there as quickly as possible before it changes.

Behind the red lines


The Cossacks went forward for a reason - they made their pursuit as difficult as possible, destroying telegraph lines, burning bridges, damaging the railway. The strength of the Reds was everything related to complex technical devices and industry in general. Mamantov understood this. And he was not going to allow echelons with infantry divisions to regularly catch up with him.

Of course, the Reds also had cavalry, but specifically here and now there were few of them. And the quality of the white riders for the summer of 1919 was still better. Therefore, the red horsemen were limited to the presence and maximum of mosquito bites, which did not allow the enemy to become completely insolent. In addition, the cavalrymen pursuing Mamantov interrogated local residents, trying to find out any information that could help in the future.


Disabled railway junction

Despite the general weakness of the forces, the Reds were preparing to stubbornly defend Tambov. But they were let down by one of the typical "Achilles heels" of that time - the general unreliability of the commanders from the former officers of the tsarist army (just a little - they went over to the side of the whites). Two "old" colonels in charge of the city fled to the Cossacks. And the plan for the defense of Tambov immediately became known to Mamantov, and in detail.

During the assault, one of the colonels led the attack at all - he led the "infantry" part of the raid forces. And Mamantov with his cavalry broke into the city from the other side. Both blows were struck at ideally weak points, so the defense cracked like a rotten nut. And the city itself fell into the hands of the White Cossacks.

Already to Tambov, the Cossacks took many prisoners. And they dealt with them as it was often in the unpredictable (sometimes in extreme cruelty, sometimes in frivolous humanity) Civil War. Namely: they harshly dealt with the commissars and ideological ones. And they let go home simple mobilized soldiers. Those who did not want to go home were taken to their place. There were already a whole battalion of them.

At first, of course, they were practically not trusted. But then, when they looked at yesterday's prisoners in action, everyone was given weapon and ammunition. Some of them fought in the ranks of whites right up to the Novorossiysk evacuation in 1920. And eventually settled abroad.

At first, this battalion moved between cavalry and infantry. And practically without ammunition - yesterday's defectors, for obvious reasons, were not particularly trusted. But later things got better - as a result, many of the volunteers who went to Mamantov survived in their role right up to the evacuation from Novorossiysk in 1920.

Red reaction


Mamantov, of course, could not always rush around the rear of the enemy. Sooner or later, such a dashing horse crowd would have been paid attention to and taken measures, allocating forces to throw out the Cossacks, even despite the difficult situation in other places. The white general himself understood this perfectly, so he did not sit in Tambov for a long time, having moved out of there already on August 20.


Raid Mamantova

Two days later, he took the city of Kozlov, breaking everything that could be useful for the war there, and taking everything that he could take with him.

But with another city - Ranenburg - there were problems. The Red forces located there managed to organize a defense. And they rested. And when they were kicked out of the city, they went over to counterattacks. Ranenburg managed to change hands several times before Mamantov, with the sobriety of a good raid commander, decided that the matter was not worth it. And he went home.

If everything that happened earlier showed the strength of the raid forces, then история with Ranenburg, on the contrary, showed their weakness. The manifestations of the latter, however, did not mean that the horse stream of Mamantov was stopped - soon the Cossacks seized Lebedyan without any problems. Yelets fell after her. Moreover, in the case of the last captured Red Army soldiers, they were even assigned to guard the convoys with the looted goods - there were so many of them.

The richest booty collected during the raid, multiplied by the robber (to be honest) Cossack nature, in general, led to the fact that the (in an operational sense, brilliant) Mamantov raid did not bring any visible strategic result. At least, Denikin will later blame the Cossacks for this - they say, they were carried away by prey, and did not destroy the rear system of the Reds, but only blew her.

To Mamantov's credit, it should be said that he nevertheless tried to somehow "lighten" his strength, at times giving out the quartermaster's surplus to the locals, then selling it for a very reasonable price. But all this was a drop in the ocean - the Cossacks, accustomed to exist for centuries due to legalized robbery, still strove to drag with them everything that was not bolted to the floor. And Mamantov, absorbed in other tasks, could not be engaged in just "cutting off the tails".

Having decided that it was time to leave the game, the general made a cunning feint - turning to Voronezh, he began to spread rumors that he would almost go to Moscow. With the expectation of increasing many times over at the expense of peasant uprisings rising along the way. The workers of the fields at that time had already managed to taste the charms of the Bolshevik version of the surplus appropriation system. And the threat seemed very real. Therefore, the Reds began to cover the corresponding directions.

Mamantov was just waiting for this - now he received complete freedom to choose the direction of the exit.

By September 19, he found a convenient place to cross the Don. Didn't even make contact with the enemy. And he united with the troops of General Shkuro, finally withdrawing his forces from under any danger.

The raid was brilliantly completed - the rear of the Southern Front was notably battered.

But shabby doesn't mean destroyed. Mamantov's forces were sent into the raid not for the sake of the most dashing raid - the task was to influence the course of the campaign.

After the war, there were active disputes between the former Cossacks and army officers - either the white armies could not take advantage of the results of Mamantov's raid, or, on the contrary, he could not create the effect required of him.

For us it is absolutely unimportant - the bare facts are much more valuable.

Moscow - the main target of the campaign - was never taken. This meant that the history of Russia would follow a completely different path.
Author:
Photos used:
homsk.com, white-idea.livejournal.com, olegsazonow.ucoz.ru, prometej.info
162 comments
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  1. apro
    apro 24 March 2021 04: 55
    0
    If a military operation does not bring victory, then why are these beats? The goal is to disorganize ... and the result is the settling of the Reds in this direction. The Red forces are not destroyed, and the direction of the main blow is revealed.
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 24 March 2021 05: 05
    +12
    At least, Denikin will later blame the Cossacks for this - they say, they were carried away by prey, and did not destroy the rear system of the Reds, but only blew her.

    To rob this, yes ... to this the Mamantov Cossacks turned out to be masters ... but it turned out to be a little guts to fight the Reds seriously.
    After that, wonder why the people did not support the whites is not worth it.
    What could such white leaders offer the population?
    Whipping and executions ... it is natural that they lost the civil war in a clean one.
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit 24 March 2021 07: 49
      +13
      Wrangel, a comrade in the white case, did not highly assess Mamantov:
      “In any case, I consider it absolutely necessary to give me the opportunity to choose my closest assistants, in particular, a good cavalry commander should be placed at the head of the cavalry. As long as the cavalry group is led by General Mamontov, nothing can be demanded from the cavalry.
      General Denikin noted that replacing General Mamontov with another person could offend the Donets. However, after my objection that after the planned by the Commander-in-Chief of the transfer of another cavalry division from the Caucasian army, more than half of the Kuban would be in the cavalry group, General Denikin agreed, if I accept the army to replace General Mamontov with General Ulagay. "

      In general, Wrangel calls this raid predatory and harmful. As a result, the Cossacks fled to the huts with the looted goods and completely decomposed like soldiers.
      1. tatra
        tatra 24 March 2021 07: 55
        +15
        Denikin cites an illustrative story of the chairman of the Tersk circle: “Of course, it’s not worth sending out uniforms. They've changed their clothes ten times already. The Cossack returns from the campaign loaded so that neither he nor the horse can be seen. And the next day he goes on a campaign again in one torn Circassian coat ... And the telegram of General Mamontov, who was returning from the Tambov raid, sounded like a death knell. We are bringing rich gifts to relatives and friends, 60 million rubles to the Don treasury, expensive icons and church utensils to decorate churches ... "
      2. apro
        apro 24 March 2021 07: 55
        +2
        Quote: Moskovit
        As a result, the Cossacks fled to the huts with the looted goods and completely decomposed like soldiers.

        Which speaks of extremely low discipline and a special Cossack path, and the absence for them of an authoritative leader of the white movement, the goals of waging war, except for the predatory ones.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 24 March 2021 10: 07
          +2
          Quote: apro
          Which speaks of extremely low discipline and a special Cossack path, and the absence for them of an authoritative leader of the white movement, the goals of waging war, except for the predatory ones.

          Duc, it's not for nothing that for a long time the Cossacks were irregular troops ... like, for example, the mounted Bashkirs and Kalmyks!
      3. bober1982
        bober1982 24 March 2021 09: 06
        +5
        Quote: Moskovit
        General Denikin noticed that replacing General Mamontov with another person could offend the Donets

        This, by the way, is the whole liberal essence of Anton Ivanovich
        Denikin himself had real squabbles with Krasnov, that is, with these very donors.
        1. boris epstein
          boris epstein 24 March 2021 18: 26
          +6
          Is it only with Denikin and Krasnov? Although the same Denikin (Entente) did not disdain the weapons received from Krasnov, he received them from the Germans from the Ukraine occupied by them. Kutepov complained about Drozdovsky (Drozdovsky did not help Kutepov in the first battle on the Kakhovsky bridgehead), the chief of staff of Denikin’s army Romanovsky was killed by a lieutenant, May-Mayevsky drank without restraint and missed the leadership of his division, Kaledin shot himself, Wrangel intrigued against Denikin. Denikin professed a policy of non-determination, and as a result, one division fought for the monarchy, another for the Constituent Assembly, the third for a military dictatorship ... As a result, they did not always interact with each other.
      4. Richard
        Richard 24 March 2021 14: 49
        +10
        Greetings, Alexey hi
        After this raid, Mamontov appeared before a commission consisting of military Cossack chieftains. The stenograms of this meeting are on the internet and anyone can watch them. Here are just some of the speeches
        G. A. Vdovenko Terek military chieftain:
        Mamontov could do incomparably more: using the exceptionally favorable situation in the rear of the Bolsheviks of the horse mass and keeping his corps from collapse, he looked not for prey, but for the defeat of the enemy's manpower, which, undoubtedly, would cause a major turning point in the operation.

        P.N. Wrangel commander at the time of the raid of the Caucasian Volunteer Army and I.O. Ataman of the Cossack troops of Russia:
        I consider the actions of General Mamantov not only unsuccessful, but clearly criminal. Having penetrated into the rear of the enemy, having in his hands a large mass of excellent cavalry, he not only did not use the advantage of his position, but clearly avoided battle, all the while avoiding collisions.
        The regiments of General Mamantov returned burdened with huge booty in the form of herds of pedigree cattle, carts of manufactures and groceries, table and church silver. Coming to the front of our units, General Mamantov sent his greetings to the "native Don" by radio and said that he was carrying "Quiet Don" and "relatives and friends ... rich gifts." Further there is a list of "gifts", including church utensils and vestments. This radio telegram was received by all radio stations. She could not but be known to the headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief. However, General Mamantov (sic) was not only not dismissed from office and brought to trial, but his rate clearly covers ...

        P. Krasnov Don military chieftain:
        I consider the raid to be successful. It was carried out in sufficient connection with the main operations of the front, which had the task of disrupting the impending Red offensive and facilitating the success of the Cossack offensive;
        During the raid, gene. Mamantov distracted from the front and rear 5 rifle divisions, one brigade, part of the 3rd brigade, Budyonny's cavalry corps, 5 communard regiments, Tambov infantry courses, numerous local formations and detachments, armored trains and flyers;
        Mamantov's raid radically disrupted the control of the Southern Front, forced its headquarters to rush between Kozlov and Orel;
        Has thoroughly destroyed the railway network;
        Destroyed the warehouses and bases of the Southern Front, inflicting a heavy blow on all its supplies.

        Filippov - Kuban military chieftain:
        Successful? Don't, Pyotr Nikolaevich, he became successful only for you, gifted with "mammoth gifts". If it were not for General Denikin's urgent demand for the return of Mamantov's corps, he would still be robbing there. Instead of giving away the captured peasantry, as it was strongly imputed to him, he looked for booty exclusively for himself. Mamantov, having started well, did not achieve the main thing: the peasantry did not revolt, but only became more bitter ...

        BOTTOM LINE:The commission of military Cossack atamans by a majority of votes ("against" one Krasnov) requested Denikin to remove Mamontov from command of the corps
      5. Time traveller
        Time traveller 9 June 2021 22: 07
        0
        Wrangel brought great harm to the whites, consistently removing their best commanders - Mamontov and Slashchev, who proved their competence in deeds.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 March 2021 08: 29
      .
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      What could such white leaders offer the population?
      Whipping and shooting ...

      Whites offered the people democracy, freedom, free labor for themselves and their families.

      Under the Whites, there has never been a multimillion most painful starvation mortality with cannibalism in the peaceful years of 1922,32,33,46,47, 37, 38, 640, XNUMX; h. million children) to the north, the islands of the cannibals Nazino, i.e. what the reds suggested.

      Mamantov's raid is a glorious page of Russia's struggle for its freedom and normal development
      1. tatra
        tatra 24 March 2021 08: 36
        +8
        And at the same time, you will continue to impudently assert that it was not the enemies of the Bolsheviks who unleashed the Civil War, in which millions of Russian citizens died. Under the spells of "freedom" the enemies of the communists for 70 years longed to arrange a counter-revolution, and when they did, they began to arrange coups against each other, and ALWAYS to the detriment of their country and people, and you do not care about tens of millions of victims of your "freedom".
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 24 March 2021 10: 19
          .
          Quote: tatra
          And at the same time, you will continue to impudently assert that it was not the enemies of the Bolsheviks who unleashed the Civil War, in which millions of Russian citizens died.

          with what "at the same time", Enemies of the Communists?

          Learn the CHRONOLOGY of the Thief and GV at least according to the tutorial, Enemy Communists:

          1 VOR,
          2. the beginning of the GW - read the so. so-called decrees "Soviet power" November 1917
          3. Acceleration of the US, Brest betrayal
          4. Complete hepatitis B and intervention

          Do you remember at last? FIRST-THIEF, everything else is caused by her.
          Quote: tatra
          ... Under the spell of "freedom", the enemies of the communists for 70 years longed to arrange a counter-revolution, and when staged

          so against whom they staged, eh, the Enemies of the Communists? What is the name of the RIGHT rape-overthrown Leninists-Bolsheviks the leadership of the country and the party!
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 24 March 2021 10: 33
            +17
            2. the beginning of the GW - read the so. so-called decrees "Soviet power" November 1917

            And what, the November decrees are talking about the beginning of a civil war? Wow, I missed it. Can you tell me what decree you mean? I will gladly fill the gap.
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 24 March 2021 18: 25
              -6
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              And what, the November decrees are talking about the beginning of a civil war?
              It is about the implementation of Lenin's plan to turn the imperialist war into a civil war. And finally stop praising the heroes of the civil war. The officers, cadets and cadets, Cossacks, workers and peasants who went against it as part of the White movement are the same Russian people as the Red Army men. There is no reason to rejoice at such victories.
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 25 March 2021 09: 22
                0
                It is about the implementation of Lenin's plan to turn the imperialist war into a civil one.

                Perhaps this will be a revelation, but this is not Lenin's plan. This is the international position of all revolutionary socialists of that period. This is evident from the decisions of the Stuttgart, Copenhagen and Basel international congresses. Therefore, it is natural that this position is present in Lenin's works. Moreover, the political opponents of the Bolsheviks in the days after February and until the end of the civil war - the Socialist Revolutionary Party (Socialist Revolutionaries) - from 1914 to February was guided by the same slogan. And if you look at the global picture, you will see that Russia was not the only country with revolutionary upheavals in the 10-20s. PMV actually acted as a catalyst for revolutionary processes.
                Well, it remains to find out where I am talking about the civil war something positive.
                And finally stop praising the heroes of the civil war.
          2. clerk
            clerk 24 March 2021 10: 38
            +13
            ... the beginning of the GW - read the so-called. so-called decrees "Soviet power" November 1917
            The beginning of the Civil War was not decrees, but the creation in December 1917 of the White Army by the generals who had betrayed the tsar. Moreover, they created it specifically on the Don, so that the Bolsheviks' retaliatory measures would provoke initially neutral Cossacks. Which perfectly characterizes the vile nature of the white leaders, who did not care about the people.
          3. tatra
            tatra 24 March 2021 11: 08
            +14
            I'm not going to read your "footcloth" until you stop calling the October Revolution as a criminal.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 24 March 2021 14: 01
              .
              Quote: tatra
              I'm not going to read your "footcloth" until you stop calling the October Revolution as a criminal.

              socially close you the criminals did not name her at all.

              Great it was called YOURS, October Revolution is also YOURS, abbreviations for everything (VChK OGPU LSUMZ) -YOUR also loved.

              so against WHOM the enemies of the communists staged a seizure, huh? What is the name of the RIGHT rape-overthrown Leninists-Bolsheviks of the leadership of the country and the party!
          4. bk0010
            bk0010 24 March 2021 14: 19
            +7
            Quote: Olgovich
            Do you remember at last? FIRST-THIEF, everything else is caused by her.
            "After that does not mean in consequence of that" Remember, finally?
        2. tacet
          tacet 24 March 2021 11: 06
          .
          In January 1918 the BOLSHEVIKS dispersed the constituent assembly and unleashed a civil war.
          On January 5 in Petrograd and on January 6 in Moscow, rallies in support of the Constituent Assembly were shot. On January 6, by Lenin's decision, the Bolsheviks dispersed the Constituent Assembly and began repressions against their former comrades in the struggle against autocracy: the socialist parties were declared counter-revolutionary, their newspapers were closed, their leaders and activists were arrested. The only political force that supported the dispersal of the Constituent Assembly was the Left Social Revolutionaries, whose representatives received three seats in the Council of People's Commissars in December (the Bolsheviks took over them six months later). The dispersal of the popularly elected Constituent Assembly under the pretext of its "counterrevolutionary nature" clearly revealed the desire of the Bolsheviks to retain the seized power by any means, and thereby shaken the sympathy for the Bolsheviks among the peasants and part of the workers, caused an increase in hostility towards them among the intelligentsia, the petty and middle urban bourgeoisie
          1. tatra
            tatra 24 March 2021 11: 12
            +14
            The enemies of the communists do not even understand the meaning of their malicious and cowardly anti-Soviet methodological guidelines. Even on the website of the military, they need to be explained what the Civil War is. And according to their moronic "logic" - if Nicholas II dispersed two Dumas - by this he unleashed the Civil War. If they themselves, after their seizure of Russia, shot the Supreme Soviet in October 1993, this is how they unleashed the Civil War in Russia.
            1. tacet
              tacet 24 March 2021 12: 31
              -4
              Civil war is an organized armed struggle for state power between classes and social groups within a country, the most acute form of class struggle (see Class struggle). This definition should be closer or familiar to you.
              1. Kolya No. 2 did not disperse, but dismissed (this slug is not capable of independent decisions, all the more harsh - the dissolution is the work of Stolypin) The difference between the dissolution according to the decree and the dispersal with the use of arrests and executions is not at all significant, isn't it?
              2. Regarding 93, hasn't it started? Very short-lived and with a continuation in 94, during which one of the parties slipped into outright terrorism.
              3. Stop hysteria, it prevents you from thinking soberly.
          2. clerk
            clerk 24 March 2021 11: 48
            +11
            ... In January 1918 the BOLSHEVIKS dispersed the constituent assembly and unleashed a civil war.
            The formation of the White Army, who had betrayed the tsar and the generals who had violated their word of honor to the Bolsheviks, was completed in December 1917. On the question of that, the GW really unleashed it.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 24 March 2021 12: 44
              .
              Quote: clerk
              The formation of the White Army, who betrayed the tsar and broke the word of honor given to the Bolsheviks by the generals, was completed in December 1917.

              was not finished: In the proclamation December 27th In 1917, it was indicated that the Volunteer Army was still being CREATED to resist the "German-Bolshevik invasion."

              Kornilov, Alekseev, Denikin did not give any "honest words" to the bandits, but Krasnov was vilely arrested by them during negotiations, although they promised not to touch
              Quote: clerk
              On the question of that - really unleashed the GW.

              Thieves unleashed - learn History, chronology at least:

              1.THIEF,
              2. the beginning of the GW - read the so. so-called decrees "Soviet power" November 1917
              3. Acceleration of the US, Brest betrayal
              4. Full GW and intervention.

              Before the thief, there were NO whites and GWs, as well as interventions and independence. These are just FACTS.

              yes, maybe at least you will answer the simplest question that puts in your STUPOR: what a fright tens of millions of people who elected in the world's first free and equal elections to the US its power, had to obey ... cheated minority, elections to the loser, but to the one who seized power? moreover, contrary to their own promises and insolently deceiving their own voters?

              Legal power in Russia ended during the February Revolution.
              The emperor instructed LVOV to form a government without limiting it to anything. The government was formed headed by Lvov.

              Nikolai and Mikhail called for submission to the Interim Government.

              The EaP was recognized and formed by EVERYTHING, incl. and advice

              everything is legal and legitimate.

              But the invaders / bandits are not recognized by anyone and are illegal
              1. clerk
                clerk 24 March 2021 13: 01
                +10
                ... The formation of the White Army, who betrayed the tsar and violated the word of honor given to the Bolsheviks by the generals, was completed in December 1917.

                was not finished: In the appeal of December 27, 1917, it was indicated that the Volunteer Army was still being CREATED to resist the "German-Bolshevik invasion."
                In early December 1917, units of the Volunteer Army took part in the battles for Rostov and suffered the first losses, including those killed by high school students. For this 62 prisoners of the Bolsheviks were shot.
              2. clerk
                clerk 24 March 2021 13: 24
                +10
                ... Kornilov, Alekseev, Denikin were not given any "honest words" to the bandits, and Krasnov was meanly arrested by them during the negotiations, although they promised not to touch
                Will you assure us that they did not betray the king either?
                ... chronology at least:

                1.THIEF,
                2. the beginning of the GW - read the so. so-called decrees "Soviet power" November 1917
                3. Acceleration of the US, Brest betrayal
                I gave you an example of the beginning of GW White in early December 1917. And decrees are not GW.
                ... Legal power in Russia ended during the February Revolution.
                The emperor instructed LVOV to form a government without limiting it to anything. The government was formed headed by Lvov.
                The emperor did not have the right and authority to transfer to the head of the government all the supreme power. Therefore, after the abdication of the tsar, the legal power in Russia ended.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 24 March 2021 14: 12
                  .
                  Quote: clerk
                  I gave you an example of the beginning of GW White in early December 1917. And decrees are not GW.

                  you are ignorant-the beginning of the war-October 25 1917 yearbut already people died.

                  Terrible battles were in Moscow in October and so on. -you at least prepare yourself better.
                  Quote: clerk
                  The emperor did not have the right and authority to transfer to the head of government all the supreme power.

                  it is not for the non-emperor to decide what the emperor is entitled to. Therefore, your categorical "therefore" is worth nothing.

                  And I will once again: Nikolai and Mikhail called for submission to the Interim Government.

                  The EaP was recognized and formed by EVERYTHING, incl. and advice... Those. fully legitimate and legal government.

                  didn't get it? I will not repeat it any more.
                  1. bk0010
                    bk0010 24 March 2021 14: 21
                    +7
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    you are ignorant-the beginning of the war-October 25, 1917 people have already died.
                    February 1917 also did not pass without blood.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    I will not repeat it any more.
                    Can we really count on this?
                  2. clerk
                    clerk 24 March 2021 14: 30
                    +9
                    . gave you an example of the beginning of the GW White in early December 1917. And the decrees are not GW.

                    you are ignorant-the beginning of the war-October 25, 1917 people have already died.

                    Terrible battles took place in Moscow in October, etc., at least prepare yourself better.
                    You mean the case when the cadets shot captured soldiers in the Kremlin? But then count the massacre of Baltic Fleet officers in the spring of 1917 for the GW.
                    ... The emperor did not have the right and authority to transfer to the head of government all the supreme power.

                    it is not for the non-emperor to decide what the emperor is entitled to. Therefore, your categorical "therefore" is worth nothing.
                    Do you seriously think that only the Emperor could understand the Code of Laws of the Russian Empire?
                    And I will once again: Nikolai and Mikhail called for submission to the Interim Government.

                    The EaP was recognized and formed by EVERYTHING, incl. and advice. Those. fully legitimate and legal government.
                    Legitimate (partially) - yes, legal - of course, legal - in no case. Explain on the fingers - Turchinov was a legitimate Acting. President of Ukraine, but completely illegal. Is it clear now?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 24 March 2021 15: 07
                      .
                      Quote: clerk
                      You mean the case when the cadets were shot in the Kremlin by captured soldiers?

                      I mean the battles in Moscow, which you have no idea about
                      Quote: clerk
                      Do you seriously think

                      I believe that you, Nobody, nobody, to decide what is legal and what is not. Emperor of All Russia, possessed unlimited, absolute power
                      Quote: clerk
                      Legitimate (partially) -yes, legal - of course, legal - by no means.

                      legitimate in full, i.e. recognized by ALL.

                      and legality means ... legality lol

                      Quote: clerk
                      I will explain on fingers - Turchinov was a legitimate Acting. President of Ukraine, but completely illegal. Is it clear now?

                      Turchynov is NOT legitimate (because not everyone recognized him) and illegal (illegal), because no one, according to the law, removed the president.

                      so only the famous figure came out of the fingers ...
                      1. your1970
                        your1970 April 4 2021 13: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        legitimate in full, i.e. recognized by ALL.

                        and legality means ... legality

                        You are wrong - because if we proceed from Your this position - the RSFSR was absolutely legitimate and legal - since it was recognized by all foreign powers and greater part of its own population. It is the greater- together those who opposed the Soviets did not even make up 10% (for the entire period of the Civil War) of the population of the Empire.
              3. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 24 March 2021 13: 34
                +5
                Krasnov was meanly arrested by them during negotiations, although they promised not to touch

                You present information in a peculiar way. In early November, Tarasov ASKED Krasnov to go to Smolny for an hour to negotiate what to do with Krasnov's Cossacks after accepting the terms of the armistice. Dybenko said that by 10:11 Krasnov would be taken by car to Smolny, and by 11 pm the issue would be settled. In fact, he went home to Officer's Street not at 11 in the afternoon, but at 2 in the afternoon. Since a) the car was detained for 12 hours b) the decision on whether to leave the Cossacks, in addition to personal weapons, also artillery, when they returned to the Don, was delayed. If you call these XNUMX hours of staying in Smolny an arrest, then some of it is very short. And not announced.
              4. clerk
                clerk 24 March 2021 13: 38
                +5
                ... Before the thief, there were NO whites and GWs, as well as interventions and independence. These are just FACTS.
                One of the measures that, according to Kornilov, could radically increase the combat capability of the troops, was the creation of large national military formations - primarily Ukrainian ones: according to Kornilov, it was the Ukrainians who directly defended their native land that showed the greatest stamina and discipline in battle. In August 1917, at the suggestion of L. G. Kornilov, Skoropadsky began to "Ukrainize" his corps (104th and 153rd Infantry Divisions)
                1. bober1982
                  bober1982 24 March 2021 15: 02
                  0
                  Quote: clerk
                  One of the measures that, according to Kornilov, could radically increase the combat capability of the troops, was the creation of large national military formations - primarily Ukrainian

                  It was not for nothing that evil tongues spoke about Kornilov, that he had the heart of a lion, but the head of a ram.
              5. clerk
                clerk 24 March 2021 13: 40
                +6
                ... yes, maybe at least you will answer the simplest question that puts you in the STUPOR: why did the tens of millions of people who chose their power in the world's first free and equal elections to the DC have to obey ... a cheated minority, elections to a loser, but power capturing
                The question is really the simplest and most ignorant (at the level of a teenage schoolchild). And the answer to it is elementary - the State Council was not an organ of power at all. From the word ALL.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 24 March 2021 14: 45
                  .
                  Quote: clerk
                  The question is really the simplest and most illiterate one (at the level of a teenage schoolchild). And the answer to it is elementary - US in general was not an organ authorities. From the word ALL.

                  , so much aplomb at the troll (you themselves so called, I remind) with ... no knowledge. request

                  You first go to school, ignoramus, and then here:

                  US of Russia is the highest representative public authority , according to the official. definition.

                  Your definitions are the least that interests.

                  US was officially declared independent state body with supreme power and complete freedom in decision making.

                  ps and no one answered the question, yes ...
                  1. clerk
                    clerk 24 March 2021 15: 10
                    +4
                    ... so much aplomb in a troll (you called yourself that, I remind you) with ... no knowledge. request

                    You first go to school, ignoramus, and then here:

                    US of Russia is the highest representative body of state power, according to the official. definition.
                    Ignorant (with a capital letter) is you, dear friend. There are no “representative” authorities. Power is legislative, executive and judicial. And the "representative body" is nonsense in its form, but in essence it is politicking.
                    The SC was officially declared an independent state body with supreme power and complete freedom in decision-making.
                    Who announced it?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 24 March 2021 16: 13
                      .
                      Quote: clerk
                      Ignorant (with a capital letter) is you, dear friend. There are no "representative" authorities

                      LITTLE - big in all letters, it's you, dear troll.

                      CA in Russia is the highest representative public authority possessing supreme power и complete freedom in decision-making - this is how the EaP was defined during the preparation of elections.


                      so it is like higher body of state power, and carried out and legislative power: accepted the Land and Republic Laws and was going to appoint executive power.
                      1. clerk
                        clerk 24 March 2021 16: 47
                        +3
                        []
                        ... The CA in Russia is the supreme representative body of state power, which has supreme power and complete freedom in decision-making - as determined by the Interim Government when preparing the elections.
                        Which once again proves that the Provisional Government was not going to give up real power to the purely political and senseless essence of all this fuss with the US.
                        ... therefore, as the highest body of state power, it also exercised legislative power: it adopted the Laws on the Land and the Republic and was going to appoint an executive power
                        Great. And when did this happen? PS We will return to the text of this "Law on Land" a little later - the Bolsheviks probably erased their palms from applause laughing
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 25 March 2021 10: 38
                        -4
                        Quote: clerk
                        Which once again proves that the Provisional Government was not going to give up real power to the purely political and senseless essence of all this fuss with the US.

                        this proves once again that it was said by an empty ignorant chatterbox, I say again - speculations / assessments a la a political and nonsensical entity nobody cares, you are nobody for that.

                        1.I'm talking about facts, again:
                        The CA in Russia is the highest representative body of state power with supreme power and complete freedom in decision-making.
                        -.and this recognized by all, incl. and the Bolsheviks-they adopted their decrees BEFORE they were approved by the CA.

                        2. The VP laid down powers at the beginning of the work of the authorized CA.

                        Quote: clerk
                        Great. And when did this happen?


                        here is not an educational program.

                        ps I said everything already three times, if it didn’t come to your problem, your repeated insinuations / assessments are not interesting.

                        Like all red ones to answer a simple question and you don’t .. lol can lol

                        so don’t bother to answer, because I will not even read, feed trill ..
                      3. clerk
                        clerk 25 March 2021 14: 11
                        -1
                        ... talking about facts, once again:
                        The CA in Russia is the highest representative body of state power with supreme power and complete freedom in decision-making.
                        - and this was recognized by everyone, incl. and the Bolsheviks, they adopted their decrees BEFORE they were approved by the CA
                        The Congress of Soviets of the USSR [1] (All-Union Congress of Soviets) is the highest body of state power in the USSR from the moment of the formation of the Union until the adoption of the All-Union Constitution of 1936. (c) Also a supreme authority of the US type laughing
                  2. Looking for
                    Looking for 24 March 2021 17: 29
                    +1
                    you have knowledge at the level of a school elective in history.
                  3. clerk
                    clerk 25 March 2021 14: 13
                    -1
                    ... you have knowledge at the level of a school elective in history.
                    Do not insult school electives, there children are trying to study history, and not scum, like Olgovich, according to a false rotten training manual
                2. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 24 March 2021 18: 16
                  +3
                  adopted the Laws on Land and Republic

                  1) The first 10 points were read out of the land bill, which were adopted without debate, the consideration of the bill as a whole was postponed for 7 days.
                  2) What is the law on the republic? Is that what you call the resolution on sovereignty?
                  3) A normative legal act acquires legal force after it is entered into the base of laws with the assignment of codification and subsequent publication. Therefore, do not call bills laws.
        3. bk0010
          bk0010 24 March 2021 14: 20
          0
          Quote: Olgovich
          Before the thief, there were NO whites and GWs, as well as interventions and independence. These are just FACTS.
          Well, yes, you can't do that quickly.
        4. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 24 March 2021 17: 00
          +5
          Quote: Olgovich
          Before the thief, there were no whites and GW

          And the free democratic press wrote that Kornilov began the GV in August ... stop
        5. paul3390
          paul3390 24 March 2021 18: 21
          +6
          Why did the tens of millions of people, who elected their power in the world's first free and equal elections to the Supreme Council, have to obey ..

          Maybe you will finally turn on your brains and bother to think - how then this very minority of the type not supported by the population managed to win the Civil War against all the numerous opponents ??
        6. sniperino
          sniperino 24 March 2021 18: 51
          -3
          Quote: Olgovich
          Before the thief, there were no whites and GW
          In theory, GW has been around since 1914:
          Revolution during the war is a civil war
          IN AND. Lenin. MSS edition 5 volume 26.
  • Far B
    Far B 24 March 2021 09: 10
    +9
    Under the whites, there has never been a multimillion-dollar agonizing starvation mortality with cannibalism in the peaceful 1922,32,33,46,47 years
    Does it bother you that there were simply no whites in peacetime? So the whites disappeared - and the years of peace came (and before that the whites appeared - and the bloody Civil War began). That is, war is the product of the white movement. "Stirlitz has never been so close to failure" (c).
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 March 2021 10: 33
      .
      Quote: Dalny V
      Does it bother you that there were simply no whites in peacetime?

      they were in power in years of peace.
      Quote: Dalny V
      Here the whites disappeared - and the years of peace came

      Whites appeared as a RESULT and AFTER the appearance of the Reds - during the Moscow battles of the legitimate government with the usurpers who seized power - you do not know this either?
      Here the whites disappeared - and the years of peace came


      what, in, "peaceful years", what's the matter with you? belay

      Stalin at least read: the class struggle of enemies against the government over the years only INCREASED!

      By 1938, how many millions had been shot, imprisoned, deported - have they forgotten? Yes, in World War-less, and you say "peaceful" years ... request
      1. clerk
        clerk 24 March 2021 12: 12
        +10
        ... Whites appeared as a RESULT and AFTER the appearance of the Reds - during the Moscow battles of the legitimate government with the usurpers who seized power - you do not know this either?
        Of course not. Legal power in Russia ended during the February Revolution. Then there was only confrontation between political forces claiming power of varying degrees of legitimacy. This confrontation ended with the victory of the Bolsheviks, who became the legitimate government.
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 24 March 2021 19: 16
          -2
          Quote: clerk
          Of course not. Legal power in Russia ended during the February Revolution.
          Oh no no no! Who did it ?!
          The workers and soldiers who rose up in February 1917 under the leadership of the Bolshevik Party overthrew tsarism and created Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies. "
          TSB, 1941. T.48, p. 383.
          Led by the Bolsheviks, the proletariat, demanding peace, bread and freedom, led the majority of the army, consisting of workers and peasants, and overthrew the autocracy.
          TSB. 1975, vol. 19, p. 348.
    2. tatra
      tatra 24 March 2021 11: 16
      +11
      What awaited the Russian people in the event of the victory of the "whites" can be clearly seen in the example of Finland. Finnish researcher Marko Tikka in his book "Time of Terror" ("Terrorin aika", 2006) was able to point out that after the fall of Tammerfors in early April 1918 The Finnish government yielded to the demands of the army and the White Guard to organize military courts. In 2004, the State Historical Commission "Victims of the War in Finland" reported that in the short period (spring-summer) of this campaign, executions were carried out with a rarely reduced intensity - almost 10 thousand people were executed.

      In total, over 3 thousand people were arrested in Finland, 80 million people, almost 3% of the country's population, of which 75 thousand were sent to hastily organized camps, where prisoners did not have enough space, water, food and medical care. Due to poor conditions, 13 people died, that is, 500 percent of the prisoners. In the worst of the camps, Ekenes, where about 15 prisoners were held, 9 percent died.
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 14 June 2021 14: 44
        0
        Quote: tatra
        almost 10 thousand people were executed.

        Ay yay ay.And how many were killed and executed as a result of the Civil War and the 30s? But then it was quiet and calm in Finland.
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 24 March 2021 09: 28
    +10
    Quote: Olgovich
    Mamantov's raid is a glorious page of Russia's struggle for its freedom and normal development

    what kind of development if they all burned and robbed ?! wassat
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 March 2021 10: 39
      .
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      what development

      in Russian it is written NORMAL!

      Those. without elephants, gulags, without 13 million who died of hunger in years of peace, without 640 thousand shot in 1937-68 alone, without a million exiled children (+1,6 million of their peasant parents.), etc., etc.

      This is normally for normal people.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 24 March 2021 11: 09
        +8
        Quote: Olgovich
        This is normal for normal people.

        But for this, you must first burn everything and plunder. Well, everything is as it is now - first to destroy the Soviet legacy, and then, like, we will build something! True, we still can't wait for this built, but in the nightstands of the governors they find half a billion request
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 24 March 2021 11: 46
          -8
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          But for this, you must first burn everything and plunder.

          everything is plundered before-read the so-called decrees. "Soviet power" - your apartment, by the way, according to those decrees should be taken away, as well as to deprive you of your inheritance, as well as gold, etc.

          Quote: Stirbjorn
          Well, everything is as it is now - first to destroy the Soviet

          have you ever seen something exceptionally good and successful ... fall apart? Not? Here I am, no.
          1. clerk
            clerk 24 March 2021 12: 15
            +6
            ... have you ever seen something exceptionally good and successful ... fall apart? Not? Here I am, no.
            And nobody saw. Because it begins to fall apart after the “good and successful” turns into “bad and backward”. And it doesn't matter - we are talking about RI or the USSR laughing
      2. Kwas
        Kwas 26 March 2021 13: 01
        -2
        For NORMAL development, it would be nice to start with:
        1. to have some kind of unity, so as not to fight right away.
        2. have at least some kind of program to know what to do next.
        3. DO NOT HAVE a program of universal destruction of political opponents. And it did exist (the Bolsheviks and all those who sympathized with the lanterns - and these are millions of people).
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 26 March 2021 14: 35
          -1
          Quote: Kwas
          1. to have some kind of unity, so as not to fight right away.

          real unity in the madhouse and in the gang. In a NORMAL society, there is a difference of opinion on one basis, the rule of law.
          Quote: Kwas
          have at least some kind of program to know what to do next.

          there were a lot of programs, but the decision was due to the nationwide US-how it decides, so it will be
          Quote: Kwas
          have some kind of program so you know what to do next.
          3. DO NOT HAVE a program of universal destruction of political opponents. And it did exist (the Bolsheviks and all those who sympathized with the lanterns - and these are millions of people).

          Lying.
  • clerk
    clerk 24 March 2021 10: 35
    +12
    ... Under the Whites, there has never been a multimillion most painful starvation mortality with cannibalism in the peaceful years of 1922,32,33,46,47, 37, 38, 640, XNUMX; h. million children) to the north, the islands of the cannibals Nazino, i.e. what the reds suggested.
    Whites returned to power in 1991 and over the 10 years of Yeltsin's rule only Russia (not even the former USSR) lost more than 10 million people due to a decrease in the birth rate and an increase in mortality compared to the last stagnant years.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 March 2021 11: 26
      +3
      Quote: clerk
      Whites returned to power in 1991

      The Lord is with you, we have found the "whites"!
      Yeltsin has been a member of the CPSU since 1961 (Central Committee since 1984). Gaidar has been a member of the CPSU since 1980. Chubais joined the party in 1978, his brother taught Marxism-Leninism in general ...
      1. clerk
        clerk 24 March 2021 11: 37
        +8
        ... Whites returned to power in 1991
        //// ::
        The Lord is with you, we have found the "whites"!
        Yeltsin has been a member of the CPSU since 1961 (Central Committee since 1984). Gaidar has been a member of the CPSU since 1980. Chubais joined the party in 1978, his brother taught Marxism-Leninism in general ...
        So Lenin from the nobility, and Trotsky from the rich and the rest, too, did not slurp cabbage soup with bast shoes. It’s not a personal biography, but a policy.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 24 March 2021 11: 48
          -3
          Quote: clerk
          So is Lenin from the nobility

          Strictly speaking, no.
          But that's not the point. Lenin and others like him did not serve in the presences and did not stand guard in the Winter Palace, but these "comrades" were completely devout communists.
          Just when the October Revolution happened, the "whites" were able to organize themselves and fought for their convictions for four years. And the "red" in a similar situation rushed ahead of their own screeching to rip off public property.
          1. clerk
            clerk 24 March 2021 12: 03
            +5
            ... Lenin and others like him did not serve in the presences and did not stand guard in the Winter Palace, but these "comrades" were completely devout communists.
            Just when the October Revolution happened, the "whites" were able to organize themselves and fought for their convictions for four years. And the "red" in a similar situation rushed ahead of their own screeching to rip off public property.
            I didn't quite understand - what kind of "beliefs" were the Whites fighting for? Well, except how to “throw off the Reds?
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 12: 15
              -2
              Quote: clerk
              I didn't quite understand - what kind of "beliefs" were the Whites fighting for?

              Hard case! (I didn't think that everything was so serious)
              The beliefs were as follows:
              Preservation of "one indivisible Russia".
              Convocation of the All-Russian Constituent Assembly.
              Preservation of private property and market relations.
              1. clerk
                clerk 24 March 2021 12: 21
                +8
                ... The beliefs were as follows:
                Preservation of "one indivisible Russia".
                In fact, the Reds fought more for this.
                ... Convocation of the All-Russian Constituent Assembly.
                These are not beliefs.
                Preservation of private property and market relations.
                In fact - for the power of foreign capital over Russia.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 24 March 2021 12: 28
                  -6
                  Quote: clerk
                  In fact, the Reds fought more for this.

                  Not true. The Reds squandered everything they could, then they had to collect.
                  Quote: clerk
                  These are not beliefs.

                  For you, maybe.
                  Quote: clerk
                  for the power of foreign capital over Russia.

                  Demagogy.
                  1. clerk
                    clerk 24 March 2021 12: 45
                    +9
                    ... In fact, the Reds fought more for this.

                    Not true. The Reds squandered everything they could, then they had to collect.
                    With the exception of Finland, which was semi-independent even under the tsar, the Reds did not squander anything. Poland and the Baltic states, in fact, were loved back in WWI.
                    ... These are not beliefs. ////:

                    For you, maybe.
                    For nobody. The Constituent Assembly is not a form of organization of political power at all, but just a constitutional conference.
                    ... for the power of foreign capital over Russia. /////
                    Demagogy.
                    This is your demagogy about market relations and private property. De facto, most of the largest private enterprises in Ingushetia belonged to foreign capital. "Thank you" Witte.
                  2. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 24 March 2021 13: 22
                    -3
                    Quote: clerk
                    With the exception of Finland, which was semi-independent even under the tsar, the Reds did not squander anything.

                    If you don’t know something, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. The same Finland was released so that later, before the Winter War, Leningrad was under attack. Estonia gained independence in some strange way together with Ivangorod, which is why there are still problems, and there are a lot of such examples.
                    Quote: clerk
                    The Constituent Assembly is not a form of organization of political power at all, but just a constitutional conference.

                    Not certainly in that way. Whites believed that after the civil war, the political structure of the country should be determined by the All-Russian Constituent Assembly. In other words, they were for parliamentarism and democracy. (How they would have succeeded is another question)
                    Quote: clerk
                    De facto, most of the largest private enterprises in Ingushetia belonged to foreign capital. "Thank you" Witte.

                    Excuse me, can you somehow illustrate these words with numbers? And that is often encountered, but as apologists get to the point, they are blown away. Just for example, before the revolution, EMNIP had six large shipyards in Russia. Exactly two of them belong to "foreign capital". Naval and the Society of Franco-Russian Factories, the latter being transferred to the treasury in 1891 (just under Witt). In general, "most" does not work in any way.
                    In general, this very "dominance" is strongly demonized and, as for me, absolutely in vain. Well, Naval belonged to the Belgians. Did this somehow prevent the construction of battleships for the Black Sea Fleet on it? Or take Opel for example. It began to belong to the Americans even before WWII, but this did not stop him from working for the good of the Reich.

                    Returning to the topic of discussion. How does all this make Yeltsin and k. - "Bely"?
                    Your reference to the origin of some Bolsheviks is completely unconvincing, since Ulyanov was not the leader of the "Union of October 17", and no one met Bronstein in the ranks of the "Union of the Archangel Michael" :)))
                  3. clerk
                    clerk 24 March 2021 13: 54
                    +6
                    ... With the exception of Finland, which was semi-independent even under the tsar, the Reds did not squander anything.
                    / / / /
                    If you don’t know something, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. The same Finland was released so that later, before the Winter War, Leningrad was under attack.
                    Well, de facto, they were released temporarily and tried to return it back in the years of the Civil War. Unfortunately it was not possible.
                    Estonia gained independence in some strange way together with Ivangorod, which is why there are still problems,
                    Ivangorod is a particular thing; in general, the Baltics were not released of their own free will.
                    ... Whites believed that after the civil war, the political structure of the country should be determined by the All-Russian Constituent Assembly. In other words, they were for parliamentarism and democracy.
                    Provided that democracy is the rule of democrats (c). These are the beliefs of whites I will believe much more willingly. laughing
                    ... Just for example, before the revolution, EMNIP had six large shipyards in Russia. Exactly two of them belong to "foreign capital". Naval and the Society of Franco-Russian Factories, the latter being transferred to the treasury in 1891 (just under Witt). In general, "most" does not work in any way.
                    well, let's in detail on these factories. Be so kind as to list the 4 remaining ones - we will analyze specifically.
                  4. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 24 March 2021 14: 00
                    -2
                    Quote: clerk
                    Ivangorod is a particular

                    Very indicative, in the sense that the Bolsheviks of that time did not care about the territorial integrity of Russia at all.
                    Again, no separate Ukraine existed in the views of the whites. (I do not give an assessment, this is just a fact) and they would not negotiate with the local nationalists.
                    In general, they were all right with their convictions. In that sense they were.
                  5. clerk
                    clerk 24 March 2021 14: 41
                    +4
                    ... Very indicative, in the sense that the Bolsheviks of that time did not care about the territorial integrity of Russia at all.
                    Again, no separate Ukraine existed in the views of the whites. (I do not give an assessment, this is just a fact) and they would not negotiate with the local nationalists.
                    A little higher, I gave information about how Kornilov in August (!) 1917 negotiated with Skoropadsky about the "Ukrainization" of his corps. On the question that "Ukraine was invented by the Bolsheviks."
                    In general, they were all right with their convictions. In that sense they were.
                    The porridge there was from empty slogans, not convictions.
                  6. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 24 March 2021 17: 11
                    +2
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    In general, they were all right with their convictions. In that sense they were.

                    Someone had the conviction: "Beat the Jews, save Russia" - where would you come with this conviction?
                  7. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 24 March 2021 17: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Someone had the conviction: "Beat the Jews, save Russia"

                    And some suggested socializing women.
                    And in general, "beat the Jews" is for the Black Hundreds, and even then not for everyone, but not for the whites.
                  8. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 25 March 2021 03: 26
                    -1
                    Judging by the real deeds, and not by the slogans - just in time for the whites.
                2. Oleg Aviator
                  Oleg Aviator 25 March 2021 02: 28
                  +1
                  Did Trotsky have dissimilar convictions? Only exactly the opposite.
            2. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 14: 17
              -2
              Quote: clerk
              well, let's in detail on these factories. Be so kind as to list the 4 remaining ones - we will analyze specifically.

              No, my friend. You made a statement about "most", you need to prove it.
              However, with shipbuilders, in any case, nothing shines for you.
              The Baltic plant is state-owned.
              Novo-Admiralteisky - state-owned.
              Nikolaev Admiralty, it is Russud. - state-owned.
              The private Putilov plant and the Russian-Baltic shipbuilding society remain. The last one is the shipbuilding branch of RBVZ.
              There was still not a very large Nevsky plant, but it was transferred to the treasury in 1910.
              Provided that democracy is the rule of democrats

              I beg you, but that there were many proletarians in the Leninist Politburo? Although it seems like their "dictatorship" ...
            3. clerk
              clerk 24 March 2021 14: 57
              +4
              ... However, with shipbuilders, in any case, nothing shines for you.
              The Baltic plant is state-owned.
              Novo-Admiralteisky - state-owned.
              Nikolaev Admiralty, it is Russud. - state-owned.
              The private Putilov plant and the Russian-Baltic shipbuilding society remain. The last one is the shipbuilding branch of RBVZ.
              There was still not a very large Nevsky plant, but it was transferred to the treasury in 1910.
              Thanks for the info .. I will add a little: the Putilov plant belonged to the Russian-Asian Bank, which was controlled by French capital. That is, foreign. There remains only the JSC Russian-Baltic Shipbuilding Society, about which I know that the capital was formed by shares in half, they tried to attract the French for the second, but they did not have time before the war and turned to the state for help. In total, of the 8 named shipyards, 4 are state-owned, 3 are foreign and 1 - the owners have not been determined (with a very big stretch, half can be considered private). So you say that whites fought for private property? Oh well....
            4. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 15: 22
              -1
              Quote: clerk
              The Putilov factory belonged to the Russian-Asian Bank, which was controlled by French capital. That is, foreign.

              Strictly speaking, this does not make it foreign. By no means all shares of the Putilov Plants Society belonged to the Russian-Asian Bank, which, in turn, was not purely foreign. The same is with RBVZ.
              Only Naval was a purely foreign enterprise.
              Quote: clerk
              So say that

              I say that you have not yet been able to
              a) confirm your thesis about the dominance of foreign capital.
              b) explain what's wrong with it?
              Well, I would still like to know how, from all of the above, a member of the CPSU Central Committee Yeltsin became "white"?
              Quote: clerk
              Well, what kind of democratic convictions of the Belykhs are we talking about?

              ??
            5. clerk
              clerk 24 March 2021 15: 45
              +3
              ... The Putilov factory belonged to the Russian-Asian Bank, which was controlled by French capital. That is, foreign.
              /////:
              Strictly speaking, this does not make it foreign. By no means all shares of the Putilov Plants Society belonged to the Russian-Asian Bank, which, in turn, was not purely foreign. The same is with RBVZ.
              Strictly speaking, we are not talking about non-resident enterprises, but about the ownership of Russian industry and finance to foreign capital. And from this point of view, both the Putilov plant and the Russian-Asian Bank were controlled by foreign capital.
              ... I say that you have not yet been able to
              a) confirm your thesis about the dominance of foreign capital.
              b) explain what's wrong with it?
              a) Using the example of the shipyards you cited, I showed that the thesis about the alleged struggle of whites for private property, in fact, reflected the struggle for the interests of foreign capital. b) In small volumes - nothing and even a lot of useful things. In those that took shape at the end of WWI, this already threatened with a real loss of sovereignty.
            6. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 15: 49
              -2
              Quote: clerk
              Strictly speaking, we are not talking about non-resident enterprises.

              Strictly speaking, you stated that "most" of the enterprises were foreign
              Quote: clerk
              And from this point of view, both the Putilov plant and the Russian-Asian Bank were controlled by foreign capital.

              Let's say you're right. Does that make them the majority?
              And what's so terrible about that?
            7. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 16: 00
              -3
              Quote: clerk
              On the example of the shipyards you cited i showed

              When?!! what what does the belonging of the shipyards, which developed by the end of the reign of Nicholas II, have to do with the White movement?
              You have not proved or shown anything, do not invent anything.
              Quote: clerk
              In small volumes - nothing and even a lot of useful things. In those that developed at the end of WWI, this already threatened a real loss of sovereignty.

              So what's the problem? Tell in all chilling details about the scale of this "dominance" and give an example of "loss of sovereignty." So far, there has been nothing but slogans.
            8. clerk
              clerk 24 March 2021 16: 28
              +2
              ... Tell in all chilling details about the scale of this "dominance" and give an example of "loss of sovereignty." So far, there has been nothing but slogans
              ... “The growing economic dependence of Russia on foreign capital during the war is also evidenced by the data cited by PI Lyashchenko himself. According to his data, as well as according to the data of other authors who were engaged in the study of foreign capital in Russia (P. Ol, L. Eventov, M. Golman, E. Granovsky, etc.), the total amount of foreign capital in joint-stock companies in Russia was calculated as of January 1, 1917 in the amount of 2 million rubles, of which 243 million fell on bond capital and 256 million - on credit institutions. The share of foreign capital in the main capital of industrial joint-stock companies in Russia was thus about 237 million rubles. If we take into account that the entire fixed capital of the corporatized industry in Russia was about 1 million rubles as of January 750, 1, then more than 1917% falls to the share of foreign capital. At the same time, the share of French capital accounts for 3%, English - 185%, German - 50%, Belgian - 32,6%, American - 22,6% and other countries - 19,7%. .. "
            9. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 18: 14
              0
              Quote: clerk
              cited by P.I.Lyashchenko himself

              wow, already "by yourself" ...
              Quote: clerk
              At the same time, the share of French capital accounts for 32,6%, English - 22,6%, German - 19,7%, Belgian - 14,3%, American - 5,2% and other countries - 5,6%. .. "

              That is, no country has total dominance.
              and most importantly, why is it bad?
            10. clerk
              clerk 24 March 2021 19: 42
              +1
              ... the share of French capital accounts for 32,6%, English - 22,6%, German - 19,7%, Belgian - 14,3%, American - 5,2% and other countries - 5,6% ... "
              /////:
              That is, no country has total dominance.
              One does not. And the Entente has 55%.
              ... and most importantly, why is it bad?
              This is bad because the country is losing real sovereignty in political decision-making.
            11. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 22: 30
              +1
              Quote: clerk
              And the Entente - 55%

              As if it were one thing. In fact, businessmen even from the same country could doggle among themselves with terrible force, let alone from different ... competition, sir!
              Quote: clerk
              the country is losing real sovereignty in political decision-making.

              This was not the case, at least because of the investment. Because of loans, and not commercial, but political, this is possible, and perhaps that was. But Witte, so unloved by you, and his successor Kokovtsev took mainly commercial loans, which later became railways and factories.
              But for some reason we have diverted from the original topic somewhere ... perhaps that's enough.
            12. clerk
              clerk 25 March 2021 09: 44
              +1
              ... the country is losing real sovereignty in political decision-making.

              This was not the case, at least because of the investment. Because of loans, and not commercial, but political, this is possible, and perhaps that was. But Witte, so unloved by you, and his successor Kokovtsev took mainly commercial loans, which later became railways and factories.
              Large-scale and long-term attraction of foreign capital leads to a reformatting of the consciousness of a significant part of their elite and the middle class, who begin to feel themselves not so much citizens of the country as employees of foreign and international corporations or simply "universal values" (which is financially encouraged), lobbying their interests often in damage to the state. It is not in vain that Putin started "nationalizing the elite."
              .But for some reason we have diverted from the original theme somewhere ... perhaps that's enough.
              We were not distracted, but delved into finding out whose real economic interests could be behind the declared beliefs of the whites. However, I do not mind and finish.
  • clerk
    clerk 24 March 2021 16: 34
    +2
    . And I would still like to know how, from all of the above, a member of the CPSU Central Committee Yeltsin became "white"?
    If you are interested in the transformation of his personality, then this is not for me. If the meaning of the question “what has manifested itself”, then the policy being pursued is rigid liberalism in the economy, sagging towards the West in foreign and domestic policy, declarative parliamentarism.
  • clerk
    clerk 24 March 2021 15: 01
    +1
    ... Provided that democracy is the rule of democrats
    ///////./
    I beg you, but that there were many proletarians in the Leninist Politburo? Although it seems like their "dictatorship" ...
    Well, what kind of democratic convictions of the Belykhs are we talking about? laughing
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 March 2021 13: 47
    -7
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Hard case! (I didn't think that everything was so serious)

    comrade just trollite-he himself I admitted this more than once and, in my opinion, not Russian (google-translating pearls slip through)

    Hones, possibly on assignment, skills
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 March 2021 13: 50
      -3
      Hmm ...
      Quote: Olgovich
      Hones, possibly on assignment, skills

      It turns out not so good ...
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 March 2021 17: 15
    +1
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Preservation of private property

    Than, in general, and turned the peasants against themselves ...
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 24 March 2021 18: 49
    +6
    And during the breaks of the "deriban" defeated the armies of 15 interventionist countries and their henchmen-whites of all stripes-Yudenich, Kornilov, Denikin, Wrangel, Komuch, Kolchak, Molchanov, the Northern White Army, the Merkulov brothers, Bulak-Bulakhovich, Ungernu, Skoruopadsky , Basmachs, Dashnaks, Musavatists ...
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 14 June 2021 15: 06
      0
      Quote: Boris Epstein
      defeated the armies of 15 intervention countries

      Cite references to direct clashes, otherwise it turns out that they left on their own. By and large, only White Czechs and the British fought in the Baltic
      1. boris epstein
        boris epstein 14 June 2021 15: 13
        0
        Read the book "White Movement (Historical Portraits)" Astrel Publishing House, Moscow, 2012 There are about 27 military leaders of the white movement.
        And in general, my comment was on March 24, and today is June 14.
  • Richard
    Richard 24 March 2021 15: 45
    +4
    clerk (Eugene) : So is Lenin from the nobility

    Senior Sailor (Ivan Ochenkov): Strictly speaking, no.

    Ivan is absolutely right.
    To finally put an end to this issue, I orientate.
    By the decree of the Governing Senate for the Department of Heraldry dated November 25, 1871 No. 5326, the tradesman Ilya Nikolaevich Ulyanov was promoted for length of service to state councilors, and hereditary nobility with seniority from November 11 1870.
    And Lenin was born April 10 (22), 1870So he had no rights to the nobility.
    Nobles among the children of I.N. Ulyanov were considered only:
    Olga (born in 1871).
    Nikolay (born in 1873).
    Dmitry (born in 1874).
    Maria (born 1878).
    Something like that hi
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 25 March 2021 03: 37
      0
      Quote: Richard
      petty bourgeois

      And it turns out that he was not a personal nobleman? Jumped straight into hereditary?
      1. Richard
        Richard 25 March 2021 06: 17
        +2
        it turns out like this
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 25 March 2021 09: 00
          -2
          Phenomenal ...
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 March 2021 13: 21
    -6
    Quote: clerk
    Whites returned to power in 1991 and over the 10 years of Yeltsin's rule, only Russia (not even the former USSR) lost more than 10 million people due to a decrease in the birth rate and an increase in mortality compared to the last stagnant years.

    The EBNs and Gaidars are not white, but the most red, flesh of flesh and bright representatives of the Bolsheviks in all their glory: as they acted in 1917, so they acted in 1991, and the result is the same.

    If we talk about demographic losses under the Reds, then only by 1954 the country was missing 76 million people. Http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/knigi/modern/modernizacija_ch5.pdf
    1. clerk
      clerk 24 March 2021 14: 01
      +3
      ... The EBNs and Gaidars are not white, but the most red, flesh of flesh and bright representatives of the Bolsheviks in all their glory: as they acted in 1917, so they acted in 1991, and the result is the same.
      You have a confusion of concepts. Bolshevism is not an ideology, but a methodology. In propaganda, this is not distinguished, but in a discussion it is important. EBN and Co. were indeed Bolsheviks, but not red, but white.
      1. clerk
        clerk 24 March 2021 14: 03
        +2
        ... If we talk about demographic losses under the Reds, then only by 1954 the country was missing 76 million people.
        You are incorrectly attributing to red the consequences of the demographic transitions that occurred at their time. In contrast, there were no demographic transitions in the 1990s compared to the 80s.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 24 March 2021 15: 21
        -7
        Quote: clerk
        You have a confusion of concepts. Bolshevism is not an ideology, but a methodology. In propaganda, this is not distinguished, but in a discussion it is important. EBN and Co. were indeed Bolsheviks, but not red, but white.

        they were the Bolsheviks to my liking in everything. It-important for understanding
        Quote: clerk
        You are incorrectly attributing to red the consequences of the demographic transitions that occurred at their time.

        Who are you, Nobody, to determine correctness / incorrectness? belay
        в their time they performed such man-made disasters that have never happened either in Russia or in the world - multimillion starvation deaths in the peaceful years of the middle of the 20th century, multimillion evictions, multimillion-dollar camps, executions and 200 million abortions, etc.

        link to scientific studies are given - when challenge the same - come
        1. clerk
          clerk 24 March 2021 15: 30
          +2
          ... EBN and Co. were indeed Bolsheviks, but not red, but white.
          /// ::
          they were Bolsheviks in every way. This is important to understand
          Hike that it is with understanding that you have great difficulties.
          You are incorrectly attributing to red the consequences of the demographic transitions that occurred at their time.

          Who are you, Nobody, to determine correctness / incorrectness? belay
          in their time, they carried out such man-made disasters that have never happened either in Russia or in the world - multimillion starvation deaths in the peaceful years of the middle of the 20th century, multimillion evictions, multimillion dollar camps, executions and 200 million abortions, etc.
          You began to slip into naked and deceitful propaganda.
          ... a link to scientific research is given - when you dispute the same - come
          You do not distinguish scientific research from science-based propaganda. The Demoscope website is sponsored by Soros and there you can use only primary statistics, and his "research" is a banal political order
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 24 March 2021 16: 22
            -7
            Quote: clerk
            Camping tripwhat exactly with understanding you have moree complexity.

            I sneeze on yours, ts ,,. "mind" of the conclusion - has it really not reached you, Nobody?
            Quote: clerk
            You began to slip into naked and deceitful propaganda.

            I don't care about your grades. Is it clear now?
            Quote: clerk
            You do not distinguish scientific research from science-based propaganda. The Demoscope website is sponsored by Soros and there you can use only primary statistics, and his "research" is a banal political order

            and you refute, simplyboltunnesoros, the cited figures, documents and sources.
            1. clerk
              clerk 24 March 2021 16: 40
              +1
              ... I sneeze on yours, ts ,,. "mind" of the conclusion - has it really not reached you, Nobody? I don't care about your grades. Is it clear now? and you refute, simplyboltunnesoros, the cited figures, documents and sources.
              That is, you have run out of your thoughts and you prefer to hide behind a cheap custom-made false brochure. Received. You are not interesting. Crawl away (s)
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 25 March 2021 10: 58
                -3
                Quote: clerk
                That is, you have run out of your thoughts

                is:
                Quote: clerk
                Hike that it is with understanding that you have great difficulties. you have ... Quote: clerk
                You began to slip into naked and deceitful propaganda. Is it called thought?
                you have .... called "thought"? belay lol laughing
                Quote: clerk
                you prefer to hide behind a cheap custom-made false brochure.

                you opposed serious work ...empty chatter :
                quote: clerk ... sponsored by Soros
                lol And yes, hack into your forehead and tie yourself lol - a knot: it was the Bolsheviks who created man-made disasters, which have never been in Russia or in the world- millions of starvation deaths in the peaceful years of the mid-20th century, multi-million evictions, multi-million camps, executions and 200 million abortions, etc.
                Quote: clerk
                Received

                your muddy, meaningless chatter, which is sterile, like a dried-up old maid, is not accepted already, while tiresomely obtrusive and boring .... I'm tired.

                Free! S (s)
        2. Oleg Aviator
          Oleg Aviator 25 March 2021 02: 26
          -2
          Old man ... It is useful to prove without. I read the comments ... In general, they probably did not stand in line after the service for sausage and sour cream, it's so easy for comparison) I then ate in the flight canteen, but the family had to feed and hang around in line.
          1. clerk
            clerk 25 March 2021 09: 35
            -1
            ... In general, they probably did not stand in line after the service for sausage and sour cream, it's so easy for comparison) I then ate in the flight canteen, but the family had to feed and hang around in line.
            There are two big differences between standing in line for sausage and just licking your lips because of lack of money.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 25 March 2021 11: 01
            -2
            Quote: Oleg Aviator
            Old man ... It is useful to prove without. I read the comments ... In general, they probably did not stand in line after the service for sausage and sour cream, it's so easy for comparison) I then ate in the flight canteen, but the family had to feed and hang around in line.

            and in the officer's room they fed me wonderfully, even the waitresses ran around with trays.

            And the family had to get it to eat ...
  • Moore
    Moore 24 March 2021 11: 31
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    Whites offered the people democracy, freedom, free labor for themselves and their families.

    Yes Yes. Offered laughing ... Precisely because they could not offer the people anything due to their obstinacy and disagreements, the forces of solidarity and discipline prevailed.
    Quote: Olgovich
    There has never been a multimillion-dollar, agonizing starvation mortality with cannibalism under whites.

    Tyuyu ... There was no famine of 1891-92 (we take not the most distant times of the reign), right? Did the evil Bolsheviks invent cannibalism too?
    Well, then they are not white, then they are completely, completely different.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Mamantov's raid is a glorious page of Russia's struggle for its freedom and normal development

    Is normal development a Pale of Settlement, the law on "cook's children", class division, "the lower ranks and dogs are prohibited from entering"?
    It was always curious who the newly-minted monarchists see themselves in this "free" society?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 March 2021 15: 27
      -9
      Quote: Moore
      united and disciplined forces prevailed.

      in the gang, too, are united. AND?
      Quote: Moore
      Tyuyu ... There was no famine of 1891-92 (we take not the most distant times of the reign), right? Did the evil Bolsheviks invent cannibalism too?
      Well, then they are not white, then they are completely, completely different.

      of course, both in scale and in casualties and for reasons (epidemic).

      Cannibalism is not recorded. But with your good Bolsheviks, in the middle already..20 century-mass of docks.
      Quote: Moore
      Is normal development a Pale of Settlement, the law on "cook's children", class division, "the lower ranks and dogs are prohibited from entering"?

      these are free elections, freedom of parties, speech, conscience, movement, work, peaceful development of society and adequate pay. What was with RI and disappeared with yours.
      1. place
        place 24 March 2021 17: 22
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        Cannibalism is not recorded. But with your good Bolsheviks, in the MIDDLE already ... the 20th century, a lot of docks.
        Quote: Moore


        And cannibalism is something that corresponded to the laws of the USSR al how? And what about the "mass of docks" - where exactly? Did his relative tell your great-grandfather this? And also, like, "people with dog-headed heads lived in the USSR, they ate each other and made rockets ..." And "a lot of that docks" naturally ... but from the archives of the NKVD .... and blah .. blah ...

        Quote: Olgovich
        these are free elections, freedom of parties, speech, conscience, movement, work, peaceful development of society and adequate pay


        Why is this? From the fact that "the white master was good-natured, and the red one was evil?"
        Your arguments, frankly, are at the level of a kindergarten. Especially about the "decent wages" from the generosity of a kind-hearted owner and "freedom" in the class society.

        In short, only Hitler said; "Bolshevism is a curse and a crime against all mankind ... The most terrible example in this respect is Russia, where the Jews, in their fanatical savagery, killed 30 million people (by 1924), mercilessly slaughtering some and subjecting others to inhuman hunger pangs ..." Hitler. Mein Kampf. 1924 g.
        WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE POSITION OF HITLER AND Mr "Olgovich"?
        That Hitler makes a logical conclusion; "This is possible only in an inferior people. Who needs to be" helped. "A full-fledged nation will not allow such a thing." And Mr. "Olgovich" modestly dwells on the "crimes of the Bolsheviks" and does not draw a conclusion.
        This is the worldview of all "humanists", from Denikin and Hitler to the "Olgovichs" and "friends in the West."
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 25 March 2021 11: 28
          -2
          Quote: ort
          And cannibalism is something that corresponded to the laws of the USSR al how?

          it meets the FACTS, like the multi-million starvation mortality carefully hidden by your pathological liars
          Quote: ort
          And what about the "mass of docks" - where exactly? Did his relative tell your great-grandfather this?

          it is written in the documents of the USSR, carefully classified and hidden from the people:
          TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. Op. 11. D. 42. L. 62, 63, 64.
          1933 g

          EISKY DISTRICT. Cossack village Dolzhanskaya - 22 / I tr. G **** eaten corpse of owl of deceased sister.

          In the same stanitsa it was established that Gr. D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with by small sisters and brothers, he ate the meat of brothers and sisters who had died of hunger.

          St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd collective farm brigade, wife E *** hacked and with "ate her 3-year-old child, withFamily E *** consists of 8 people who eat various substitutes (rape, silage, etc.) and meat of cats and dogs.

          In the 3rd brigade, the wife of S *** drags corpses of children from the cemetery and eats. A search of the apartment and interrogation of the children of S *** established that several corpses were taken from the cemetery for food.
          The apartment is found the corpse of the girl, with the legs cut off and boiled meat was found.
          thousands of such documents
          Quote: ort
          Why is this? From the fact that "the white master was good-natured, and the red one was evil?"

          From the fact that the white man lived on normal the laws of the development of society, where the aforementioned horror was not.
          Quote: ort
          Your arguments, frankly, are at the level of a kindergarten. Especially about the "decent wages" from the generosity of a kind-hearted owner and "freedom" in the class society.

          you have "arguments" not at all, but the level of consumption of food, clothes in 1913, yours just COVERED ... 40 years later - = report of the Central Statistical Board in 1955 to help - after incredible victims
          Quote: ort
          WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE POSITION OF HITLER AND Mr "Olgovich"?
          That Hitler makes a logical conclusion; "This is possible only in an inferior people. Who needs to be" helped. "A full-fledged nation will not allow such a thing." And Mr. "Olgovich" modestly dwells on the "crimes of the Bolsheviks" and does not draw a conclusion.
          This is the worldview of all "humanists", from Denikin and Hitler to the "Olgovichs" and "friends in the West."

          do not confuse the Bolsheviks and the people: the people of the Bolsheviks never chose anyone anywhere and did not entrust anything (not without reason they were afraid of elections before enuresis), but the regime endured them, at the same time it built, loved and fought and defeated Hitler (like Napoleon, Charles, etc.), and then removed them
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 25 March 2021 11: 43
            0
            thousands of such documents

            So add variety, otherwise with thousands of documents you don't even bring a hundred, but always only one.
            and the level of consumption of food, clothes in 1913, yours just COVERED ... in 40 years - = report of the Central Statistical Office of 1955 to help

            Perhaps this is so, who argues. The catch is that it is impossible to draw such a conclusion from this report.
            Please name the population in 1940 and 1913 within the borders of the USSR.
            the Bolshevik people never chose anyone anywhere and did not entrust anything

            And why did you write a quarter of the country's population as "not the people", did you decide to engage in segregation?
            fought and defeated Hitler

            Again, some kind of segregation. Do you think that among those who fought and won there were only those who did not like power?
    2. moreman78
      moreman78 24 March 2021 16: 01
      +3
      [quote = Moore] [quote = Olgovich]
      Is normal development a Pale of Settlement, the law on "cook's children", class division, "the lower ranks and dogs are prohibited from entering"?
      It was always curious who the newly-minted monarchists see themselves in this "free" society? [/ Quote]
      Naturally, they think of themselves as PRINCES, who are given by birthright to rule the uncomplaining slaves!
  • tacet
    tacet 24 March 2021 12: 10
    +3
    Andrey, don't juggle!
    According to the "Memorandum of the Prosecutor General of the USSR R.A. Rudenko, Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR S.N. Kruglov and Minister of Justice of the USSR K.P. Gorshenin on the number of those convicted by the OGPU collegium, NKVD troikas, Special meeting, military collegium, courts and military tribunals for counter-revolutionary activities in 1921-1954. " // GARF. F. 94016. Op. 26, D. 4506. LL. 30-37
    32 people were sentenced to death in 642 years. 980 people were sentenced to detention in camps and prisons for a term of 2 years or less. And 369 people - to exile and deportation.
    This also applies to your later post about the expulsion of a million children and one and a half million of their parents.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 March 2021 13: 54
      -9
      Quote: tacet
      Andrey, don't juggle!
      According to the "Memorandum of the Prosecutor General of the USSR R.A. Rudenko, Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR S.N. Kruglov

      according to Pavlov's certificate of 11.12.1953/XNUMX/XNUMX was 681 thousand VMN for 37-38 gg-read it
      Quote: tacet
      This also applies to your later post about the expulsion of a million children and one and a half million of their parents.

      you should know that these poor millions of citizens didn’t hit those numbers AT ALL: they were robbed without a court decision, like cattle
      1. clerk
        clerk 24 March 2021 14: 07
        +5
        Pavlov's certificate of 11.12.1953/681/37 was 38 thousand VMN for XNUMX-XNUMX years-h
        The prototype of the cotton business - 2/3 of the postscript and "dead souls"
        1. tacet
          tacet 24 March 2021 14: 45
          +3
          Chances are you are right. Malenkov and Khrushchev requested information. The maize man was preparing for the 20th congress, and he could have hinted at the amount he needed.
          1. clerk
            clerk 24 March 2021 15: 20
            +2
            ... Chances are you are right. Malenkov and Khrushchev requested information. The maize man was preparing for the 20th congress, and he could hint at the amount he needed.
            This is not even the point - according to the documents, most likely there were 680 thousand to the VMN in 1937-38. But judging by the number of those buried - three times less. It is much easier to account for the postscripts of the executed than for those who were imprisoned and exiled - I drew several pieces of paper and the report is ready.
      2. tacet
        tacet 24 March 2021 14: 29
        +3
        Are you not interpreting it too freely? VMN - 681 thousand, although for anti-Sovietism 291 thousand, that is, all 291 thousand were shot !? And robbers, murderers, maniacs, etc. were fed ice cream and sent to Gagra?
        There is nothing supernatural and "terrible" in the population of the Gulag and other places of imprisonment in the USSR: it does not differ from the number of penitentiary systems in other countries.
        Thus, in the 1930s, the Soviet Socialist Republic had an average of 583 prisoners per 100 people. population. , and in the USA - 000.
        The predominance of political prisoners in places of detention was only in 1946 and 1947, when convicted Vlasovites, Bandera, "forest brothers", policemen and other evil spirits began to enter the camps. In general, during the years of Soviet power (as of 1955 .) 9,5 million prisoners have visited all places of imprisonment in the USSR, of which 2,37 million were convicted for political reasons, which is 25% of the total number of prisoners. There were no more than a million people in the Gulag at a time, which was less than 1% of the population.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 24 March 2021 15: 40
          -7
          Quote: tacet
          Are you not interpreting it too freely?

          you read it, huh?

          Condemned for a counterrevolutionary crime 1 million 372 thousand. VMN 681 thous. for 37 and 38 g.

          in 1936 VMN for ALL - 1119 people. in 1937 already VMN ,,,, 358 000 people

          Did you catch the difference?
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 24 March 2021 16: 55
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Under the Whites, there has never been a multimillion most painful starvation mortality with cannibalism in the peaceful years of 1922,32,33,46,47, 37, 38, 640, XNUMX, there was no execution in one peaceful year (XNUMX-XNUMX) XNUMX thousand fellow citizens

    Because their hands were cut off in time. And so they would arrange this ... the whole of Russia would become a continuous Nazin.
  • Looking for
    Looking for 24 March 2021 17: 14
    +3
    Whites offered the people democracy, freedom, free labor for themselves and their families. - Disrespectful. Even the most stubborn liberals do not voice such nonsense.
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 24 March 2021 22: 34
    +3
    Quote: Olgovich
    Mamantov's raid is a glorious page of Russia's struggle for its freedom and normal development

    This was especially "admired" by the local robbed and beaten residents, who were glad that the entire infrastructure in their province was destroyed.
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 24 March 2021 09: 26
    +7
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    After that, wonder why the people did not support the whites is not worth it.

    It is worth wondering why the Cossacks are offended by the Soviet regime, after they robbed Russian cities and villages with might and main. Moreover, they also robbed their fellow countrymen who had gone to the Reds. Such an episode is described in "Quiet Don". Was it any wonder when the answer came from the Reds ?!
    1. apro
      apro 24 March 2021 10: 03
      +2
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      It is worth wondering why the Cossacks are offended by the Soviet regime,

      This is different. They are innocent victims, but they are believers. And the red atheists. God ordered them to suffer for the race ... and that there are not many other cities. So they need it so ... they are not Cossacks. They do not know their will. We looked at the Cossack land.
      Cossacks have any power across their throats. Separatyugs are small.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 March 2021 11: 19
      -1
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      Such an episode is described in "Quiet Don".

      Sholokhov wrote a lot. Including that the uprising on the Don began after what Podtyolkov and Bunchuk did. And before that, many Cossacks, especially front-line soldiers, were more than loyal to Soviet power. And Melekhov was so generally red.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 24 March 2021 12: 47
        +4
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Including that the uprising on the Don began after what Podtyolkov and Bunchuk did.

        what have they done ?! Was Chernyakhovsky's detachment chopped up? So that, as it were, the enemy was and he himself did not give mercy. Especially if you remember how the 1905 Revolution was crushed.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 24 March 2021 12: 56
          0
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          what have they done ?!

          Have you read it? So read it, there is a lot of detail about the actions and the reaction of the Cossacks to them.
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          Was Chernyakhovsky's detachment chopped up?

          EMNIP is Chernetsova after all. Chernyakhovsky is a different story.
          1. Stirbjorn
            Stirbjorn 24 March 2021 13: 58
            +3
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Have you read it? So read it, there is a lot of detail about the actions and the reaction of the Cossacks to them.

            I read it, I read the whole "Quiet Don" - that's why I ask
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            EMNIP is Chernetsova after all. Chernyakhovsky is a different story.

            Yes, I confess, I confused - Chernetsov hi
            PS By the way, you too, confused Bunchuk with Krivoshlykov. Bunchuk is just a literary character, not a real person
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 March 2021 14: 22
              0
              Quote: Stirbjorn
              I read it, I read the whole "Quiet Don" - that's why I ask

              Apparently like me, for a long time hi
              In short, there the Red Army men retreating from the Ukraine frolicked so that the Cossacks struck a flare. Well, Podtyolkov and Bunchuk, of course, fumbled.
              In general, civil wars are the worst. And pacifists and humanists did not meet there. Everyone was good.
              1. Richard
                Richard 24 March 2021 16: 45
                +3
                Dear Ivan, good afternoon hi
                I absolutely agree with you. It was the murder by Podtyolkov of the famous WWI hero and deputy of the Great Don Troops Circle in 1917 V.M. Chernetsov that divided the Cossacks into white and red.
                “The wounded Chernetsov rode off to his native stanitsa Kalitvenskaya, where he was betrayed by one of the one-page residents and captured the next day by Podtyolkov, at whose hands he died.
                All the way to Novocherkask, Podtyolkov mocked Chernetsov - Chernetsov was silent. When Podtyolkov hit him with a whip, Chernetsov snatched a small Browning from the inner pocket of his fur coat and point-blank ... clicked at Podtyolkov, there was no cartridge in the barrel of the pistol - Chernetsov forgot about it, without feeding a cartridge from the clip. Podtyolkov grabbed a sword, slashed it in the face, and five minutes later the Cossacks drove on, leaving the chopped up corpse of Chernetsov in the steppe. Golubov, having learned about the death of Chernetsov, attacked Podtyolkov with curses and even burst into tears ... Sholokhov. "Quiet Don"

                Sholokhov's version is not entirely true. According to the grandson V.M. Chernetsova E. P. Chernetsov in the book "My grandfather did not shoot Podtelkov!" ( link- http://www.donvrem.dspl.ru/Files/article/m5/4/art.aspx?art_id=626):
                "The wounded Chernetsov, who was unconscious on the bed in his family hut, was simply hacked to death by Kaledin's matchmaker and the chairman of the special commission for mobilization into the Red Army, Podtyolkov, who refused to carry out the order of the chairman of DonRevCom Golubov to deliver him to Novocherkask.

                This is also evidenced by the entry of January 31, 1918 in the Panteleimonovskaya church of the Ivankov farm in the village of Kamenskaya, left by the priest Alexander Smirnov and the psalm reader Vasily Baizdrenkov. In the column "From what he died" it is written - "Numerous chopped wounds to the head. Killed in a civil war. " EMNIP, this is the first written documentary mention of the civil war
  • antivirus
    antivirus 28 March 2021 00: 45
    0
    antivirus 2 Today, 08:52 New
    father studied at Yves Energy Inst and "lived, 3 students in an apartment in 52-55 years, on the Worker Village", it is nearby. "The owner of the house was Konnik-Chapaevite, came with Furmanov, Ivanovo weavers"
    There were 2 rooms in the house, in one of the owners (I remember by association that Gorky’s grandfather and grandmother are small. Puny (?) As it should be for a jockey rider — it’s easier for a horse, a grandmother is a large, tall, high-born), 2 sons grew up and lived separately already, their room was rented out. in 55 g, dormitories were built on the Paris Commune, and resettled there.
    I didn’t write it down and, after several years, I forgot the names of the owners of the square.
    "He said," they did everything right. so now we live like that. "I understand how --- I was pleased with my life in the 50s and my life.

    father showed
    GESTURE (ALL YOUR (them) HATE AND ALL RUSSIAN 20 CENTURY) ------

    !!! fist from chest level vertically down, like a saber from a saddle on foot !!!

    It is necessary to look at the living conditions in the center of Russia which supported the Bolsheviks.
    They fought for the lives of their children (each), saved from hunger and disease.
    The north, the less likely it is to survive the winter without Tambov bread.
    there was no single nation, the process of creating a Russian-Russian nation has not been completed yet.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 14 June 2021 14: 39
    0
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    What could such white leaders offer the population?
    Whipping and executions ... it is natural that they lost the civil war in a clean one.

    You might think the red could offer something. The peasants, especially the wealthy, didn’t need either the white or the red. To sit on their farm and make moonshine. If you think that everyone in the Red Army fought at will, then this is not so. As here already was in the article, and the Whites and Reds simply mobilized the population. The Reds mobilized much more + the main factories and warehouses were on their territory. The people were promised a sweet gingerbread, and as a result, no one received either land or factories.
  • Far B
    Far B 24 March 2021 05: 08
    +5
    How many during the Civil War there were such "brave, decisive, dashing" who, like Mamantov,
    could undermine the forces of the Reds and disorganize their actions, strike a blow at the belief in victory and the desire to fight. And in the end, almost decide the outcome of the war
    Where did they end up? This is to the question of whether the majority of the population of Russia supported the Reds, or the overwhelming majority did not sleep with the crunch of the French roll, yes.
    1. tacet
      tacet 24 March 2021 11: 13
      -1
      The majority did not support any of the many parties.
  • Free wind
    Free wind 24 March 2021 05: 40
    +6
    Sometimes reading about the betrayals of the former tsarist officers, their executions do not seem particularly unjustified, the two former surrendered the city, and rivers of blood flowed, and the Reds did not kill his wife.
    ... By the way, mamAntov, the accent is on the second a.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 March 2021 06: 41
    +10
    Well, how many uprisings did Mamantov raise, with the help of the toilers of the fields, who had time to try the delights of the Bolshevik version of the surplus appropriation system?
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 24 March 2021 17: 23
      -1
      Surely fewer than those who experienced Cossack robberies and landlord repression for the taken land ...
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 March 2021 07: 53
    +2
    And why the general began to be called MamAnts, and not Mamontov, just because Wikipedia decided so?
    1. place
      place 24 March 2021 15: 43
      +5
      Quote: bober1982
      And why the general began to be called MamAnts, and not Mamontov, just because Wikipedia decided so?


      Probably because the "man of the South" Timur Sherzad, as far as I know, is not yet 30. He does not know any other sources. However, it is already intricate in the syllable!
      What is, for example, such his opus; how; "... release the guts to the red rear" ....?
      Firing pin abrek, oh firing pin!
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 24 March 2021 17: 20
        +1
        Quote: ort
        ... release the guts to the red rear "....

        This is because ............. MamAntov just spat on regular communication,, and further in the text of the article.
  • mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 24 March 2021 08: 20
    +1
    I do not know of more than one battle where the Cossacks were put in a line. Plunder the train, cut the foragers, yes. A man who lives in war knows the value of his life.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 24 March 2021 08: 20
    +5
    And how many churches were robbed during this raid. The author does not indicate. But okay how many, but simply does not write about it. And that the looted property, without church property, fell into the hands of the poorest peasantry, but the same village and the rural rich.
  • Avior
    Avior 24 March 2021 08: 45
    +3
    Mamantian forces crossed the Khoper River

    Remembered

    smile
  • Growlers
    Growlers 24 March 2021 14: 31
    +11
    The author is somehow modestly silent about the fact that the Cossack units were followed by the convoys of the village dwellers and took out almost everything ... (Denikin wrote about this, since the carts fettered the mobility of the compound) ... There are indistinct references in the memoirs and in the study of the white investigator Ivanov. But what a stench rose when the stanitsa began to "level" their own methods. Burning villages and farms, cutting out stripes for the Cossacks ...
    1. Oleg Aviator
      Oleg Aviator 25 March 2021 02: 12
      -1
      It would be better with such enthusiasm that both of them fought with the Germans. Maybe the inspiration for atrocities towards their compatriots would have diminished)
  • place
    place 24 March 2021 14: 47
    +1
    Let's say, not "in the rear of the Reds," but in the rear of the regular army of the Russian Federation. Well, "letting out the guts of the red rear" - IT'S JUST A MASTERPIECE! Ai entertainer Timur Sherzad ..... Those who want to "release guts" to the civilian population naturally come across a bayonet, releasing smelly guts by themselves. That would be what I would look at with great pleasure!
  • geologist
    geologist 24 March 2021 18: 21
    0
    To rob and ruin your country means to put (substitute) the Cossacks and your business outside the law, with all that it implies. Immediately prepared for himself the fate of the invaders - defeat, destruction or flight.
  • Oleg Aviator
    Oleg Aviator 25 March 2021 02: 08
    -1
    I read my memoirs like that in front of the civil one, the Cossacks did not really want to fight at all. And when it began, they began to stir only when they were bend over directly and the economy began to be theirs. And then ... But would not have been ...
  • Azamat Ramazanov
    Azamat Ramazanov 26 March 2021 08: 37
    +1
    Winning a battle does not mean playing a war
  • hermit
    hermit 27 March 2021 00: 35
    +1
    The general's mustache is valid. And so - nothing special.
  • Tagil1
    Tagil1 5 May 2021 22: 00
    0
    Something I do not understand how to correctly Mamontov or Mamantov? In one place it is, in another it is different
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 5 May 2021 22: 26
    -1
    Is six guns a lot? belay
    This is zero, which means that the unit was doomed at any encounter with artillery.
    Napoleon also carried mobile artillery with him in large quantities.
    horse-drawn. And it was with her that he achieved success.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 14 June 2021 15: 20
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      was doomed at any meeting with artillery

      However, something has not been heard about the inglorious death of the detachment, probably because it was not supposed to enter into clashes with significant forces
  • cherkas_2
    cherkas_2 6 May 2021 10: 14
    0
    A simple calculation shows that the number of Red Army troops was 5 times greater than that of the Whites, the Reds introduced surplus appropriation to supply the army (while the Whites bought fodder and food). general mobilization. All factories for the production of weapons were at the Bolsheviks, this is central Russia. England threw the whites without putting weapons waiting for the collapse of Russia and the division of zones of influence. Here's what the result is ...
  • Time traveller
    Time traveller 9 June 2021 22: 15
    +1
    Quote: tatra
    And at the same time, you will continue to impudently assert that it was not the enemies of the Bolsheviks who unleashed the Civil War ...
    It is a shame not to know that the Bolsheviks themselves not only admitted that they had unleashed a civil war, but were proud of it.
    Only if we can split the village into two irreconcilable hostile camps, if we can ignite there the same civil war that went on not so long ago in the cities, if we manage to restore the rural poor against the rural bourgeoisie - only if we we will be able to say that we will do in relation to the village what we could do for the cities.
    (c) Ya.M. Sverdlov. Speech at a meeting of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee of the IV convocation on May 20, 1918 "Selected articles and speeches. State Publishing House of Political Literature, L., 1939.