Which is more useful, "Admiral Nakhimov" or ten "Buyans"?

Not so long ago, our audience, which is attentive to naval subject, expressed pleasure in the fact that the second heavy cruiser of the Orlan project, Admiral Nakhimov, is being overhauled. And one more representative of the project, "Admiral Lazarev" is going under the knife on needles. And this news, of course, saddened everyone.

But now I would like to think about how promising this path is in general. More precisely, we will count first in rubles, and then in rockets.

The whole problem is that the real total cost of the modernization of "Nakhimov" is unknown. Well, it has become the custom in our country, just what is being classified is what would not be worth it. But it is clear that the amount is very huge, because the cruiser stood idle for a very long time. All my, so to speak, adult life.

In 2012, Anatoly Shlemov, at that time the head of the department for state defense orders of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, estimated the restoration of the cruiser at 30 billion rubles, and taking into account the installation of new weapons - up to 50 billion rubles.

At the same time, the planned cost of the project 20380 corvette was 10 billion rubles, the project 11356 frigate - 13 billion, and the project 22350 frigate - 18 billion.

Yes, here it is worth explaining the following nuance: these figures for "Nakhimov" are not final. These are rough estimates, for the first, so to speak, plan. They were named BEFORE the contract was signed and BEFORE full fault detection was carried out. That is, without actually knowing the state of the ship's hull, general ship systems and cable routes.

And then, almost 10 years have passed since the rough estimate. During this time, there was a collapse of the ruble and a rise in prices. Approximately 70-80%. So today we can say that the overhaul and re-equipment of "Nakhimov" will cost at least 90 billion rubles. And if we also take into account the blooming corruption in our country, then the figure of 100 billion rubles does not seem so overstated.

Let's just say: a very controversial decision and a rather expensive pleasure. And here it is worth thinking about, since we will talk about very difficult things.

Heavy nuclear cruiser of project 1144 "Orlan". The deadly quintessence of Soviet shipbuilding. Only American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and Russian strategic submarine cruisers can be more monstrous than this monster.

It seems to be a huge warship, capable of solving tasks of varying complexity in different regions of the World Ocean. Theoretically capable of fighting an aircraft carrier strike group of the US Navy.

In practice, of course, no one checked it. And this is probably a good thing, because most likely the result would be disappointment. However, we will talk about this separately in the very near future.

And now is the time to recall the recently quoted words of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, about the fact that our fleet will carry out some tasks there in the South Atlantic, Indian Ocean and other strange areas in which we seem to have interests.

Interests are good. And God forbid that we first have a fleet that would be able to solve the problem of protecting these interests. Then there would be sense in the emergence of these interests. And since we do not yet have a fleet capable of protecting the interests of Russia on the other side of the globe, then, probably, there is no need to acquire problems there.

Peter the Great is, of course, a significant ship. But even such a ship is beyond the power of months-long campaigns in the style of underwater missile cruisers. The ship's autonomy is only 60 days. And then he needs water, food, a bunker (sorry for the intimate details) and much more. Including a supply vessel with the same missiles and shells. We are performing a combat mission, judging by the words of the admiral?

Accordingly, even such a unique and versatile ship as Peter the Great will need an escort. A couple (at least) destroyers, an anti-submarine ship, a tanker with fuel for the suite, supply vessels with water and provisions, it would also be nice to have a radio reconnaissance ship. In general, it is comparable to American orders. Only the Americans have them, but we do not. Only plans and ambitions, nothing more.

But I would like to look at the problems that do not lie somewhere on the other side of the globe, but somewhat closer, near our shores.

How useful will a mastodon like Peter the Great in the White Sea or Admiral Nakhimov in the Okhotsk Sea be?

In general, it is very doubtful. The whole world is moving towards stealth and miniaturization, stealth technology, stealth, raised to the rank of the most important task ... And here is such a ship that can be seen from space without strong optics ...

An excellent target for both the radar of enemy ships and missiles. And, if the missile boat has minimal chances to remain unnoticed by the enemy's radars, then the Orlan will shine on all screens like a Christmas tree. Because a ship 20 or 30 years ago was still built without taking into account all these subtle innovations.

And if the enemy near our shores will be met not by huge cruisers, but by ships that are much smaller in size, but not inferior in functionality?

Let's take a look at Orlan.

Can fight off submarines? Theoretically, yes, but the bulk of the ship does not differ in controllability, and inertia is the same in general, 25 tons is not a little. So a torpedo is the worst thing you can think of for a cruiser, and the best thing that the enemy can use.

There is "Waterfall". There are 10 torpedo tubes, from which you can shoot 10 missile-torpedoes "Waterfall". Nice system, yes, but 10 torpedoes are 10 torpedoes. There are 10 more in stock, but reloading takes a long time.

Aircraft. The cruiser also seems to be doing fine. The 48 Hornets of any American aircraft carrier will have to work hard to get into strike position. 48 S-300FM missiles at long range can greatly complicate the life of aircraft. But there are only 12 missiles in the Fort-M drums, the rest will need to be reloaded. Time…

Medium distance - SAM "Dagger". 16 launchers for 8 missiles. 128 missiles are serious.

Short range - ZRAK "Kortik", 6 units of 24 missiles, a total of 144 missiles. Pretty impressive too. In general, from the calculations of the air defense system "Peter the Great" and the air wing of any American aircraft carrier, perhaps, I would put on the calculations of the air defense system of the Russian cruiser.

The only bad thing is that we have only two cruisers, while the United States has ten aircraft carriers ...

And if not huge cruisers, but small rocket ships? How are our security guards?

For example, Project 21631 Buyan-M small missile ships.

Yes, only 950 tons of full displacement. Yes, the crew is only 36 people (maximum 50), and not 750, as on the cruiser. Yes, this ship will not be able to carry out tasks of "protecting interests" somewhere near the coast of South America, but near its own shores - easily.

8 missiles of "Caliber" or "Onyx" type. Yes, they are two times inferior to the "Granites" in terms of the starting mass and the mass of the delivered charge. It is a fact.

But one "Buyan-M" costs 9 billion rubles. Overhaul of "Admiral Nakhimov" may cost 90 billion. That is, 1 to 10. Okay, let's have 8 ships. Just in case, taking into account the rise in prices, embezzlers and our other realities.

8 small rocket ships instead of one cruiser. 8 new small rocket ships instead of one old cruiser.

What are 8 Buyan-M-class ships? It is, as it is easy to calculate, 64 "Onyx" and "Caliber". Let's take a look at the numbers.

Warhead weight "Granite" - 500-600 kg. Onyx has 300 kg. The Caliber has 400 kg. It seems that "Granites" look more impressive, but ... let's use a calculator.

We get that in a salvo of 20 "Granites" of the cruiser - 12 kg of explosives.
In a salvo of 8 MRK "Buyan-M" in the case of "Onyx" there will be 19 kg of explosives, "Caliber" will give 200 kg.

That is, in fact, "Onyxes" and "Calibers" carry twice as many explosives to enemy ships. Let's leave the issue of speed and accuracy aside for now, since this is a separate conversation. As well as the neutralization of missiles by the enemy. Although, it seems to me, "Caliber" will be somewhat more difficult to lead astray than "Granite". Still a more modern product.

In addition, the Buyans are still less noticeable than the Orlans. Stealthy boats, armed as efficiently as a huge cruiser. In addition, if you apply a calculator, then 8 RTOs will carry 288 or 416 crew members. This is slightly less than 750 people on the cruiser. And the chances of losing trained specialists are still less in the case of RTOs.

Hypothetical situation: AUG of the US Navy is approaching, say, the Kuriles. A detachment of 8 RTOs comes out to meet and fires a preemptive salvo, hiding behind the islands. 64 rockets. Or 20 missiles from the Admiral Nakhimov.

Some will be shot down by air defense and electronic warfare systems, some will definitely fall. Naturally, the escort ships will fire back. They just have to give. Perhaps the aircraft on duty will be able to detect the ships and launch the attack.

However, even if planes can do damage, it will not be huge. Here, rather, destroyer missiles. However, who is easier to hit? In RTOs that will try to hide using their stealth, or in a cruiser that you disguise, do not disguise, but still the flagship of the Pacific Fleet will be a more luxurious target than RTOs?

Yes, of course, as mentioned above, the Orlan has more chances to fight off the aircraft of the aircraft carrier. And let's face it, these F / A-18s are not the worst opponents.

Yes, the air-launched Harpoon anti-ship missiles (which are AGM-84E) with their 225 kg of warhead are, of course, more dangerous for MRKs than for the Orlan-class mastodon.

The bombs GBU-32 JDAM (450 kg) and GBU-31 JDAM (907 kg), although adjustable, but ... getting a free-falling bomb into a small and maneuvering MRK will be more difficult than into a cruiser. Although, considering that the cruiser will actively resist being hit by all its air defense systems ...

But tactical and anti-ship missiles from escort destroyers, I'm afraid, will become a very big nuisance for the Russian cruiser. Yes, there will be a lot of them. But what American destroyers and cruisers have no problem with is the launch cells. There is something to shoot. It's just a matter of accuracy and ability to hit.

Difficult reflections. There is an opportunity to spend money on the restoration of a huge cruiser, which can become the flagship of one of the fleets. It can "display the flag" somewhere out there, on the distant shores.

In general, to be honest, all these "demonstrations" are just useless money transfers. There is no sense in them, and the money is burning in furnaces and reactors by trucks. And what is the real benefit of seeing this cruiser somewhere in a terribly developed country like Venezuela ... Or in Bolivia.

Forgive me, even the cost of food cannot be recouped by driving the old huge ship on not entirely clear missions to "demonstrate" the countries of the third or even the fourth world.

Or build ten small, but modern and very effective ships with the latest missile weapons, which, of course, will not be able to stagger about all kinds of "demonstrations", but will very effectively join the ranks of the real defenders of the country's water lines?

Well, since we decided to keep the second Orlan afloat, let it be. If the flagship is so needed, the sight of which will shake the veins of everyone in Papua New Guinea or the Marquesas Islands - no question. Well, it's just that the American fleet can hardly be frightened, I suppose, by the spectacle of one (and even two "Eagles") in the sea near the American borders. There, in the Pacific, in the Atlantic Ocean, a group of 2-4 aircraft carriers, a dozen "Ticonderogs" and a couple of dozen "Arlie Berks" are quietly gathering. And on this show-off of the cruiser, albeit very heavy, ends.

And, most likely, without even starting.

It is difficult to say what the top ranks of our country were guided by when approving such a project, but since they decided that a second cruiser is simply necessary, there are no questions. Moreover, despite the fact that "Nakhimov" is 10 years older than "Peter the Great", its resources, consider it, have not been worked out. The ship in eternal repair stood and rusted.

But I warmly welcome the fact that they decided not to restore Lazarev. There is no sense. There exactly one hull remained from the ship, built in 1981.

And the money, which we, as we know, never have enough, is really worth spending on something more useful and meaningful. On the real security guards. Buyanov, Karakurt, Cheetah.

These are ships that are less expensive in every sense, and have one huge advantage over the Orlans - they can be built in modern Russia.

It is clear that we will not be able to build anything like the Eagles today. There is no one and nowhere. But they are not needed, they are huge ships. Well, perhaps only for the destruction of budgetary money of expensive and useless operations to "demonstrate the flag and greatness of Russia", which the overly patriotic part of the population of our country needs so much.

Although why the spectacle of the newest ships, albeit not so huge, can not cause a fit of delight and joy for the country?

In general, I hope that instead of the "Admiral Lazarev", with whom we said goodbye, our fleet will receive more useful and, most importantly, new ships. Although the huge sums that will be spent on putting in order "Admiral Nakhimov", too, frankly, it is a pity. It would be better if ten Buyans were built. Delight is delight, but protection is still protection. There is a difference, as it were.

Comments

[carstorm 11]

You shouldn't get into topics where you don’t understand anything, Roman ... Even I’m a landlord from head to toe, and I realize it ...

[Ross xnumx]

Thank you, Roman!
Excuse me, gentlemen of the jury. How many of you have a misunderstanding of the topic? Who did not understand the message? Who did not understand the comparative analysis, characteristics and other nuances?
There is already a strong impression that the interests of the Navy are interesting only in the aspect of allocating a lot of funds for the creation of "even if something and as much as necessary" ...

Quote from Uncle Lee

Novel for "Mosquito Fleet" .... So let's get down to rubber boats with one "Caliber".

I understand that Roman is for the prudent use of budgetary funds and the compliance of the combat capabilities of the fleet with the tactics of countering a potential (real) enemy in real conditions. No fiction. No snot and hands free. No pipe bells and whistles. No intimidation by "dad or older brother".
And his thoughts are transparent and understandable.

[lucul]

Excuse me, gentlemen of the jury. How many of you have a misunderstanding of the topic? Who did not understand the message? Who did not understand the comparative analysis, characteristics and other nuances?

To me )))
Roman described the situation with the old weapons of the cruiser. But, installed on this cruiser, during the modernization of the Zircons, and the Pion launched into orbit, this year (God forbid), everything is sharply turned upside down. Peony will calmly give target designation to a cruiser for 1000+ km or more. And in this case, Orlan, the main threat, is only the enemy's submarines, because he will cope with the enemy's AUG alone.
But the cover of the cruiser by 2-3 by our submarines, plus a pair of BODs, stop the threat from this side as well.
So, the expected most powerful ship on the planet, the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is quite reasonable for itself, and definitely better than 10 Buyanov))).

[Alexander Matrosov]

Peonies are needed 12. Minimum 6.

[lucul]

Peonies are needed 12. Minimum 6.

As far as I remember, Peonies need 5.
He will fly in an orbit of 900 km, in this case he will have a huge radio horizon.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Alexander Matrosov

Peonies are needed 12. Minimum 6.

".... According to information disseminated in the media, the Liana should include two Lotos-S and two Piona-NKS." In a conversation with RT, Honored Pilot of the Russian Federation Major General Vladimir Popov said that today this number of satellites is quite enough to carry out current tasks in the interests of the RF Armed Forces ..... "
https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/724540-sputniki-pion-nks-sistema-liana

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Bad_gr

In a conversation with RT, Honored Pilot of the Russian Federation, Major General Vladimir Popov, said that today such a number of satellites is quite enough to perform current tasks in the interests of the RF Armed Forces ..... "

Only, unfortunately, he did not indicate what he understands by current tasks
But most of all I liked these words of Popov

Likely, these devices are equipped with different types of electronic reconnaissance equipment

That is, a person does not even know what exactly these satellites can do, but he confidently says that there are enough of them.

[bk316]

Peonies need 12.

What the fuck? According to all calculations, 5 with 2 or 3 of them in reserve.

[AC130 Gunship]

For bearing accuracy, dear. 35 years ago, when I was in the army, three rays in the intersection gave a triangle. More rays are needed. And then there are clouds. And then all these satellites end up in a deep well.

[bk316]

And then there are clouds.

And lotus and peony satellites of RADAR INTELLIGENCE where does the clouds?

For bearing accuracy, dear.

What the fuck is the bearing, God forgive me. Do you think the cartography that you use in Yandex (and there is a binding with an accuracy of 5 meters) is filmed with three cameras?
Indeed, it is better sometimes to remain silent

[VladGTN]

There may be one camera. But GLONASS or GPS satellites at the time of using I-maps need several. My phone uses 5 to 12 ....

[bk316]

But GLONASS or GPS satellites

How does Earth remote sensing technology relate to global positioning technology?
You better shut up if not in the subject at all. By the way, you are now trying to tell something to the person whose programs are most likely "using your phone"

[VladGTN]

You then I look in the subject. Are you going to do topographic reference by eye? Or will you use satellites?
By programs. By the way, the latest version of Yandex maps is extremely crooked.

[Doctor]

So, the expected most powerful ship on the planet, the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is quite reasonable for itself, and definitely better than 10 Buyanov))).

Here is the battle of the "Orlan" with the West.

[lucul]

Here is the battle of the "Orlan" with the West.

This is not at all military fiction - everything depends on Peony. Zircons 2.0 promise to double the range, but without satellite targeting, such a range is useless.
Therefore, launching Peony is priority number one.

[Doctor]

This is not at all military fiction - everything depends on Peony. Zircons 2.0 promise to double the range, but without satellite targeting, such a range is useless.
Therefore, launching Peony is priority number one.

In my opinion, not a specialist - it is written well.
At least it gives a general idea of ​​what such a cruiser can do.

[zloybond]

It was high time to classify all military contracts. Too much fuss about production and repair. Moreover, it should be classified so that any attempt to sniff out ends in a pick in the mine.

[bk316]

Therefore, launching Peony is priority number one.

I've been writing about this for 5 years, but the naval commanders want aviki, although the peony is 10 times cheaper and this does not take into account the order and the air wing. In other matters, while the public was breaking spears about the need for AUG, they quietly developed zircon and launched lotuses.

[whiteidol]

An exciting series of books. (Posted on "Pulp." Not an advertisement for the author) There is a sequel. The second book is fire. The rest are a little more boring, but still good. The author is preparing a sequel.

[max702]

I read, read, and recommended it on this resource .. By the way, everything is written very decently, especially about how it will all be without nuclear weapons .. Only the attack on the boarding of the Marines amused .. The author is a fine fellow that he left Peter as he is without clinging to him nishtyakov modern ..

[Starover_Z]

Quote: Arzt

Here is the battle of the "Orlan" with the West.

I read it, read the sequel. I liked that without embellishment and that no one alone could cope with the whole group. And hats won't help!

[Machito]

Quote: lucul

Excuse me, gentlemen of the jury. How many of you have a misunderstanding of the topic? Who did not understand the message? Who did not understand the comparative analysis, characteristics and other nuances?

To me )))
Roman described the situation with the old weapons of the cruiser. But, installed on this cruiser, during the modernization of the Zircons, and the Pion launched into orbit, this year (God forbid), everything is sharply turned upside down. Peony will calmly give target designation to a cruiser for 1000+ km or more. And in this case, Orlan, the main threat, is only the enemy's submarines, because he will cope with the enemy's AUG alone.
But the cover of the cruiser by 2-3 by our submarines, plus a pair of BODs, stop the threat from this side as well.
So, the expected most powerful ship on the planet, the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov is quite reasonable for itself, and definitely better than 10 Buyanov))).

From the text of the article, I immediately understood what Roman Skomorokhov had written. The article is a plus for provoking Klimov and Timokhin to a detailed answer.
Bolivia will not see the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, it has no access to the sea.
After modernization, there will be no Granites on Admiral Nakhimov, there will be Calibers, Onyxes, Zircons.
Comparison of Eagles and Buyans does not make sense, because these are ships for different tasks. It's like comparing the Grad with the T-90.
The main advantage of Buyans is that they are river-sea ships and they can be transferred along the internal river routes from the Black Sea to the Northern Ocean and the Baltic. You can maneuver the deployment of cruise missiles without disrupting the deceased INF Treaty.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Bearded

Comparison of Eagles and Buyans does not make sense, because these are ships for different tasks.

And that's it !!!

A plus!
In addition, Mr. Skomorokhov's "bloopers" were stolen from me ... Now do not postebatsya .... Sadness.

[Machito]

Once before the war with Chile, Bolivia had its own coast, but that was a long time ago.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Bearded

Bolivia will not see the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, it has no access to the sea.

Does it really matter if Bolivia has an outlet to the sea if Nakhimov does not go beyond the Barents Sea? so not only Bolivia, but also Chile and Argentina and Japan and Trinidad and Papua New Guinea and Mozambique can sleep peacefully ...

[ironic]

With AUG he by oneself copes in whose dream? Yes, even if I was twice as strong ... just wondering what you need to take before going to bed in order to dream of such a thing? Well, let's say the satellite issued a tip-off, they say, for 1000 km, AUG was detected. And the AUG type does not even know that a missile cruiser with a displacement of 1000 kT hangs 25 km away from it? Is it waiting for all the anti-ship missiles to take it up into the air? AWACS planes do not fly and their satellites fell asleep? LRASM is no longer in production and have the superbets forgotten how to wear it? And one, two Virginias circling around each AUG have lost their Axes, which in the Block 5 version hit anything with the same passionarity? But this block went into series this year. So even worse, the 4th block is upgraded to the same ability in version one, so that those already in service do not turn sour. And I, as it were, did not take into account the F-35C at all, which is not yet fully combat-ready, but theoretically could come within the range of launching anti-radar missiles and a scribe to the radars, and after it the supercats in pursuit ...

This ship had to be turned into a museum of military glory. But I'm sure you will also modernize Peter according to the full program of Nakhimov. You will see.

[lucul]

With AUG, he alone copes in whose dream? Yes, even if I was twice as strong ... just wondering what you need to take before going to bed in order to dream of such a thing?

Wake up - times have changed))))

Well, let's say the satellite issued a tip-off, they say, for 1000 km, AUG was detected.

And in 10 minutes Zircon will ALREADY fly to Avik.

And the AUG type does not even know that a missile cruiser with a displacement of 1000 kT hangs 25 km away from it?

And if a cruiser of 25Kt goes in radio silence mode? ))))

Is it waiting for all the anti-ship missiles to take it up into the air?

The point is this - for example, the satellites gave target designation to both that and the fact that the enemy is located 1500 km away from him. It is enough for Nakhimov to approach 1 km and launch Zircon (more than one), the distance of 000 km is covered by Zircon in 1 minutes. Let's say the avik raises its F-000s, with a combat radius of 10 km, carrying LRASM with a range of 18 km. The LRASM will cover the 750 km distance in at least 900 hour, just like the Tomahawks Block 1 will fly more than 000 hour to the target. Zircon only needs 1 minutes for this distance.
And look - guaranteed not to take air defense AUG Zircon, against enemy missiles, which can hit targets with a success rate of 50%. But on the way Zircons with twice the range.
How do you like this alignment? ))))

[ironic]

Times change, but uryaks remain uryaks.

Yeah, in a dream such a person will fly with a wizard in a blue helicopter. It is still not clear at all what this Zircon is and why and when they will be armed with it.

If at all he will go somewhere in the number of one piece, then he will be led from the pier itself, even if he is a bigger stealth than Sumvolt.

The satellites will not give out any target designation. They will give out the coordinates of the detected connection. At the same time, even the penguins at the Pole will know about Nakhimov's approach, and the patrolling group from the air wing will be in the air for a long time, and the escort boats will long aim at the Nakhimov detection square. And even if all the Americans went to bed, from their satellite tracking system to the crew of the AWACS on duty, the very first start will wake them up, and the Zirkons will not fly for 10 minutes at all. It is only in dreams with a blue helicopter that missiles reach 8-9M in the atmosphere and immediately. This means that in reality it will fly for about 20 minutes, because its average flight speed is about half the maximum attainable transatmospheric one. Within a few minutes, the AUG will turn from the course and begin to increase speed to maximum and cover itself with all possible electronic warfare, and missiles from 3-4 Berks and a pair of Ticonderogs will fly into zircons and go know where else, and this is a lot of missiles. And at this time, hornets from LRASM and Axes from submarines will already fly to Nakhimov. Whether the missiles from 6-8 escort ships that have not yet been adopted for service and it is not known which Zircons will overcome the palisade of missiles from XNUMX-XNUMX escort ships, is an open question, but the fact that Nakhimov will not return home is not even a question.

[lucul]

Times change, but uryaks remain uryaks.

Likewise, Caliber was denied)))

and missiles from 3-4 Berks and a pair of Ticonderogs will fly into zircons, and go know why, and this is a lot of missiles.

Generally useless, even though all 10 air defense units combined are collected)))

The satellites will not give out any target designation.

That is the whole tsimes of Pion, that he can)))

[ironic]

And they were denied? Is this also from dreams with a blue helicopter? Laughed at their number in service, yes. Well, even today, after many years, they are not gardens.
How many uryaks were there for the Dagger? And as soon as they assumed that it was not something transcendental, it turned out. Exclusively a measure of bezishodnost, taking into account the rework of the MiG-31.

[lucul]

And they were denied?

Of course, so much so that all the monitors spat - it's enough to raise those topics)))

[ironic]

Yes, garbage, no one adequate to them, except for a small number, did not deny, in contrast to some incomprehensible hypersounds. For the technology as a whole is clear and proven. And what is this the first long-range CD in the USSR / RF? There was no sea, but they were in the Air Force. There is no need to come up with blue helicopters and everything immediately falls into place.

[lucul]

Yes bullshit, no one adequate to them except for a small number did not deny,

Well, the Russians did not deny - but the oppas, all as one.

For the technology as a whole is clear and proven

Now Russia can already say so about hypersound - it is in the final tests.

[ironic]

From when it becomes clear that where and how, even at the general educational level, then we will grind for this, but for now we have not yet seen atmospheric hypersound, and the rest and the BR have been able to do so until now.

[lucul]

From when it becomes clear that where and how, even at the general educational level, then we will grind for this,

I take it at his word, when he appears in the troops - then we will grind, only then do not say that you did not deny.)))

[ironic]

And what did I deny? I have said and still say that it is not clear what it is at all yet. You will not find a single post with a different meaning in any topic.

[mvg]

Likewise, Caliber was denied)))

From what such Caliber was denied, if the 3M10 Grenade flew a long time ago, only with special warheads. And it was in a piece, in contrast to 6000 axes.

[Akela]

Well, be it - in your opinion, fly the Zircon 1000km for 20 minutes, while the boatswain scratches the eggs, puts on sandals, laces them up, fills and smokes a pipe, blows a pipe, and opens the rusted lid of the rocket shaft with a crowbar - 10 minutes will pass. But in 20 minutes the AUG will not go anywhere from the square, and the Zircons flying in a flock will easily find it. All. No missile defense will save you from hypersound. You can release supernets, axes of at least the tenth block, they fly for at least an hour. You can kiss the Eagle on the stern in an hour. It will no longer be in this square. And the clouds of interceptor missiles fired towards the SUBSONIC axes cannot be overcome by them. The enemy's submarines will be sunk simultaneously with the Zircon salvo. They are for the ship, as in the palm of your hand - it is enough to turn on the sonar ONCE, hydrophones will be placed around the area by helicopters.

[ironic]

Is this boatswain also from dreams about a wizard in a blue helicopter? AUG will not go away from the square, but it will move 20 kilometers for sure. But in order not only to detect but also to capture on a new target with the maximum counteraction of electronic warfare nuzna systems similar to LRASM or Axes bolk 5, and this is not trivial at subsonic speed. And what Zircon can do there and how he flies and is guided in general is not known even in general terms. Any hypersound does not fundamentally save from missile defense. Flying towards the interceptors at a lower speed, but the ability to maneuver is much greater than a missile tearing at hypersonic speed, visible on the radar screen like a Christmas tree. Tsimes is here in the speed of approach and the number of attacking missiles, but 10 minutes is enough for the escort ships to fire dozens, if not hundreds of interceptors (there are no less than 40 of them on each Burke and Tukonderoga) against dozens of attacking missiles. But the Axes of the 5th block and the Super Summit, who came out to meet Orlan, will perfectly find him with the help of AWACS planes, even if he moves aside 70 km in an hour and with active homing heads can easily capture his unique signature even for 100 km. Enemy submarines will be sunk by what? The enemy has them, for a second, of the last generation only, about 23-24. And how many potential opponents do they have? One? Two? This is from what distance their helicopters will be able to detect? And will the air group on duty allow them to reach this distance or send them behind the sonars to make sounds in the water?

[Akela]

You have some strange, unhealthy fixation on wizards in blue helicopters. Why? All interceptors against hypersound are absolutely useless, and your opinion here cannot outweigh the opinion of military experts. No electronic warfare will hide the AUG from the optical homing head from 20 km. But the axes of the 10th block, supernets and all the vaunted DLRO will be extinguished by Orlan's electronic warfare, which has already been proven on the "Donald Cook" in the Black Sea. The submarines will be flooded with Orlan's missiles, it is enough to place hydrophones for 100 km, the air group on duty, if it comes up, will be sent to emit sounds in the water.

[ironic]

Well, because the nonsense that you write is worthy of the wizard from the blue helicopter, which gives free popsicle. Military experts, who are in fact experts, and not experts for the loot, do not know at all what is there and how will happen with hypersound, since no one has atmospheric yet, and ballistic missiles, which are hypersonic beyond the atmosphere, shot down missile defense interceptors both in Israel and in USA. So this is already game from the very beginning. An even bigger game is the optical guidance of a warhead moving in a cloud of plasma. As well as the belief that the electronic warfare of one ship can extinguish dozens of active seeker heads of Axes and AFARs of dozens of fighters. The wizard of the blue helicopter with ice cream is waiting for you in your sleep. And the hydrophones will be deployed by an unfortunate pair of fan-winged machines, without cover, which will successfully catch boats located hundreds of kilometers from the cruiser, and even have something to shoot at them hundreds of kilometers away with a maximum firing range of 20 km ... well, fierce game. And the air group on duty, of course, will climb right into the radius of the shot from the "Fort" and this is not counting the fact that theoretically it can contain a pair of F-35Cs, which will be refueled in the air by drones and which, from a maximum distance of up to 150 km, will hit anti-radar missiles on the radars, and Orlan will never know that they were there.

[Akela]

The storyteller from the blue helicopter, about which you speak, you yourself. Your topic is unhealthy. By the way, why didn't you like my bike about the boatswain? After all, this is exactly how Russia is represented. They're shooting movies too. And, by the way, this is a continuation of your tale about the Zircon flight time from 1000 km, equal to 20 minutes. , which is actually less than 10 minutes. Who are you, expert? But the opinion of foreign experts, in comparison with whom - you are nothing. :
The British are the most depressed. The Mail Online (the online version of the Daily Mail) quotes military expert Pete Sanderman as saying: “Defending against hypersonic missiles is a huge challenge for surface ships. There is very little time to react to this, and even if detected, the protective measures taken may be completely inadequate. "
Another military expert - Paul Harper - in The Sun gives a rather original strategy for keeping the British fleet safe and sound: "With no way to defend against missiles like the Zircon, the ship will have to remain out of reach, hundreds of miles at sea." ... In essence, this means the refusal of the Royal Navy to participate in hostilities.
At the same time, the British are analyzing the possibilities of countering the Zircon not only with existing, but also promising naval missile defense systems. So the Sea Ceptor complex, which in the foreseeable future should enter service with warships, has a deliberately weak missile, the firing range of which is 25 km. The missile has a radar homing head. It weighs about a centner and is capable of developing a speed of up to 3 M. The Zircon, as shown by the past tests, is almost 3 times higher. Experts believe that the Sea Ceptor anti-missile will have targets with a speed not exceeding 3,5 M.
But the situation is aggravated by the fact that the radar seeker is capable of directing an anti-missile to a target whose speed does not exceed 5 M. For example, the anti-ship missile "Granit". "Zircon" flies in a cloud of plasma, from which radar waves are not reflected.
The situation in the American navy is no better. The National Interest magazine predicts: "These missiles could turn America's superships into multi-billion dollar graveyards for thousands of sailors."
Anti-missile defense of aircraft carriers is carried out by 1–2 missile-defense ships with the Aegis missile defense systems deployed on them. That is, this is the "Standard" air defense system with SM-2 and SM-3 missiles. The maximum speed of the best American interceptor missile, like that of the British, is 3 M. But at the same time, the ability to work with ultra-high-speed targets is higher. Aegis tests have shown that the SM-3 missile can shoot down medium-range ballistic missiles as well as satellites in low orbits. At the same time, the anti-missile is equipped with an infrared homing head and is capable of maneuvering. However, maneuvering is sufficiently effective only when intercepting targets whose speed does not exceed 3M-4M. Already at a meeting with the RCC Granit, Aegis may have certain difficulties. The situation will be even worse as a result of a massive attack by Granites. The fact is that this Russian anti-ship missile has group intelligence. In flight, missiles distribute targets among themselves, choosing the most important for attack. When a missile is hit, other Granites take over its target. At the same time, the group constantly evades anti-missiles and includes electronic countermeasures.
In the case of hypersonic targets, the Aegis system calculates the trajectory of the missile and finds the point of convergence with the trajectory of the anti-missile. And shoots. With the "Zircon" the same number will not work, because it is an actively maneuvering hypersonic missile. Earlier, when it was believed that its speed reached 6 M, Western experts considered it impossible to intercept. Now that the speed has been adjusted to 8 M, the despondency of American strategists has increased .------ svpressa.ru
“Hypersonic missiles are nearly impossible to stop,” a senior British naval source told The Daily Mirror. “Without defenses against missiles like the Zircon, the British aircraft carrier would have to remain out of range, hundreds of miles at sea,” he added. "His planes will be useless, and the entire carrier strike group will be superfluous."
The true capabilities of the new weapons of Russia and China, which Moscow and Beijing can use against aircraft carriers, are still unknown, but recent tests show that the unconditional dominance of ships of this type in the oceans is coming to an end, Business Insider concludes.
As for the optical guidance of a warhead moving in a cloud of plasma, I can please you that there is not only this, but also a multi-channel connection, which you have never dreamed of even in a dream.
"And the air group on duty, of course, will climb right into the radius of the shot from the" Fort "and this is not counting the fact that theoretically it may contain a pair of F-35Cs, which will be refueled in the air by drones and which, from a maximum distance of up to 150 km, will hit anti-radar missiles on the radars, and Orlan won't even know that they were there. "- Tell me, how long will it take for drones to cover 1000 km? 5:XNUMX ! And also overcome the cloud of interceptor missiles! And electronic warfare! Storyteller!

[ironic]

Unlike you, I know the value of these Western opinions, they are all called give dough. And in this respect they are acting correctly. They need loot. In order to fly in 10 minutes, Zircon must almost immediately reach the maximum speed and maintain its entire three-way, which is already game. These experts know very well that the same Barak-8, not exceeding 2M, knocks down Bramos, driving him down into the water with a downward blow. Therefore, the Indians were wildly enthusiastic and now they want it also in a terrestrial version. They also know that an Arrow interceptor with a speed of 8M is capable of intercepting warheads one and a half and even twice as fast. But they persistently write about the impossibilities of Aegis and interceptors, also designed for missile defense. As for the granites, which were tested, judging by the information on the VO, once in a flock and then in a flock of two and without the opposition of modern electronic warfare, for which they were not designed, then these are already obvious scarecrows. Well, it is clear why this is needed. So that the loot is not cut. I don’t even know what to say about active maneuvering in the atmosphere at hypersonic speed, well, fierce game. What have the experts invented the new physics? Well, you need to read at least with minimal filters. What kind of connection there is is not yet clear, but optical guidance and plasma is definitely a game and you do not need to assure me of a game, it will not cease to be a game from this, just as new physics will not be invented in the foreseeable future. How long will it take for a refueling agent to reach the air group on duty? Not more than an hour, for the air group will be closer than the ship itself. At the same time, there will be no anti-missiles at all, because the Fort does not shoot at such a distance. And it is useless to use electronic warfare against it, because at such a distance, more power is needed than all Orlan's radars combined. Do you even think when you write?

[Akela]

"Unlike you, I know the value of these Western opinions, they are all called give the dough." - well, how normally do you get paid? You give yourself a definition. You certainly don't think, think when you write. I will not even bother to quote a similar opinion of Russian experts. This is the opinion of The Sun, The Daily Mirror, Business Insider, Mail Online (online version of the Daily Mail newspaper), The National Interest. And who are you, expert? You are talking about the invincibility and greatness of the western fleet with outdated subsonic missiles, and about the great striking power of drones, they have already been grounded normally in Karabakh.

[ironic]

As the chief of software for a modern startup, I am naturally paid well. You give the definitions, and stugmatic ones. Yeah, I’m twice, twice, I don’t repeat myself, I don’t repeat myself. You weren’t taught to think like that, so you don’t know what other thoughts are besides stigmatic ones, and in the West, stigmatic thinking is considered to be the lot of rogue, and a critical attitude towards any promoter is a normal phenomenon. The same publications reprinted both interesting and sensible articles and gestural game. You need to have your own opinion. And I am a proto elementary educated person from the high-tech world, this is enough for difficulties for those who want to carry out the process of examining my moscow, no matter from the pages of which edition. There are no invincible fleets. The American navy is simply stronger. Subsonic missiles are more than modern and much more stealthy than supersonic ones. Their advantages in accuracy and search radius and stealthy approach to the target are obvious. The advantages of high-speed missiles are only in the time of approaching the target. Brad is your alternative physics from a wizard from a blue helicopter. The power of drones is not in itself, but in combination with a different approach to the conduct of modern combat, and no matter how much they are grounded in Karabakh, the result is obvious - defeat.

[Akela]

"As the head of the software of a modern startup, of course, I get paid normally. You give the definitions, and the stugmatic ones. Yeah, I don't repeat myself twice, twice, I don't repeat myself, I don't repeat myself. You just haven't been taught to think so, so you don't know what other thoughts there are, except stigmatic, and in the West, stigmatic thinking is considered to be the lot of rogue, and a critical attitude to any promoter is a normal phenomenon. The same publications reprinted both interesting and reasonable articles and gestural game. You need to have your own opinion. And I am a proto elementary educated person from the world hi-tech, this is enough for difficulties for those wishing to conduct the process of examining my moscow, no matter from the pages of which edition. "-------------------------- Epic nonsense ! Your blue helicopters did not bring you to any good, chief of software for a modern startup.

[ironic]

But they brought you to nonsense, nonsense, without repeating themselves without repeating themselves. Well, yes, I have no interest in such goodness.

[Akela]

Well, tell me something else, amuse the people, "a proto elementary educated person from the high-tech world, this is enough for difficulties for those wishing to conduct the process of examining my moscow.
"stigmatic thinking is considered to be the lot of rogue" - you urgently need to "carry out the process of examining my moscow". "You weren’t taught to think like that, so you don’t know what other thoughts there are"
Angel, urgently to the doctor!

[ironic]

There were three times when I worked in Switzerland to gain access to classified banking information, when I worked in Canada to gain access to commercial secrets and when I worked for an Israeli military officer to gain access to state secrets. The doctors considered my mental state to be satisfactory. And you urgently go to the circus, there are still blue helicopters flying and wizards give out popsicles to Cheburashkas. Although if you are not released because of the crown, cartoons will help.

[Akela]

Angel, good to carry nonsense. "the chief of software of a modern startup" - the maximum you can do - give out brooms to the windshield wipers. You are obsessed with wizards in blue helicopters, something like that, you are not indifferent to this topic. "Yeah, I am twice, twice, I don't repeat myself, I don't repeat myself." - and why - do you repeat yourself? Is it jammed? Well, of course, spring ... You urgently need to "carry out the process of examining my moscow" - This is for your own good, urgently see a doctor! In general - to the circus for you, the people were amused. What other thoughts do you have?

[ironic]

Well, you are talking nonsense, but it doesn’t bother you. The most you can do is to be rude. This is your obsession with being a Cheburashka. Why am I repeating myself? I am giving you examples of your pearls. As I already told you, three doctors have already convinced themselves of my sanity for the level of official, banking and military secrets, but for your level of intelligence this is not comprehensible, I get it. You only know the word "doctor". No, the circus left long ago, but the clown Akela remained. You have no thoughts, so there is no point in further telling you mine.

[Akela]

To be rude? - What are you, I'm extremely polite! "This is your obsession with being a Cheburashka." "But the clown Akela remained. You have no thoughts," - a continuous stream of insults. Secret bearer of Israel, tell me better, what is the shekel to the Swiss franc now? "the chief of software of a modern startup" - no one will even entrust you to give out sweepers to the wipers. "This is your obsession with being a Cheburashka." - How did Cheburashka interfere with you? I didn't say a word about him. Either you have wizards on blue helicopters, or Cheburashka! Harry Potter did not run?

[ironic]

You are not polite, you are rude, and you would be sarcastic if you could, but you are trying ...
An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Serves you right, for on business.
Cheburashka interfered with you, you stopped at his level since the last watching of the cartoon and the song accompaniment, respectively.
Potter didn't run, you haven't grown up to have Rowling characters yet.

[Akela]

With you, everything is clear, because such delirium as yours can only be carried by a psychiatric patient. But I am not offended by madmen. I want to help you, but you are angry! Why are you so afraid of the word Doctor? Nothing, the orderlies will cure you!
"You weren't taught to think like that, so you don't know what other thoughts there are," "You have no thoughts, so there is no point in further telling you mine." - is rich in thoughts! About Cheburashka, please, in more detail, amuse the people! And about Harry Potter!

[ironic]

No, no, no, that's enough for me your infantile childhood with a drum ...

[Akela]

Yes, this is your nonsense about Cheburashka, and a wizard on a blue helicopter, who made an indelible impression on you with his magic wand and the fact that he gave his popsicle to lick. Fuuu ... As they say, do not shift from a sore head to a healthy one. We started about ships, and ended up ... as a child. Spring...

[ironic]

You have nothing to blame for this, do not attribute impossible actions to me. You have not finished, you have not left your childhood yet. Well at least we noticed that it was spring. I leave you the opportunity to write the last post in the dialogue and be proud of it.

[Akela]

Say something else, make us laugh! Encore !

[Charik]

Nice humor at night, especially with helicopters

[Xscorpion]

Quote: ironic

Times change, but uryaks remain uryaks.

Yeah, in a dream such a person will fly with a wizard in a blue helicopter. It is still not clear at all what this Zircon is and why and when they will be armed with it.

If at all he will go somewhere in the number of one piece, then he will be led from the pier itself, even if he is a bigger stealth than Sumvolt.

The satellites will not give out any target designation. They will give out the coordinates of the detected connection. At the same time, even the penguins at the Pole will know about Nakhimov's approach, and the patrolling group from the air wing will be in the air for a long time, and the escort boats will long aim at the Nakhimov detection square. And even if all the Americans went to bed, from their satellite tracking system to the crew of the AWACS on duty, the very first start will wake them up, and the Zirkons will not fly for 10 minutes at all. It is only in dreams with a blue helicopter that missiles reach 8-9M in the atmosphere and immediately. This means that in reality it will fly for about 20 minutes, because its average flight speed is about half the maximum attainable transatmospheric one. Within a few minutes, the AUG will turn from the course and begin to increase speed to maximum and cover itself with all possible electronic warfare, and missiles from 3-4 Berks and a pair of Ticonderogs will fly into zircons and go know where else, and this is a lot of missiles. And at this time, hornets from LRASM and Axes from submarines will already fly to Nakhimov. Whether the missiles from 6-8 escort ships that have not yet been adopted for service and it is not known which Zircons will overcome the palisade of missiles from XNUMX-XNUMX escort ships, is an open question, but the fact that Nakhimov will not return home is not even a question.

Wake up, the Americans do not have axes in the anti-ship missile version, and there will not be at least until 2030. This has been stated more than once. And LRASM with hornets will not fly as only a few of them are made and they are only in initial operation of the US Navy. if reached in 10 years, since there is not even a hint of new contracts for their production, and the old one will expire this year. You should not rely on the patrol from the air wing, since most of their fuel will already be used up and they will fly hundreds of kilometers And it takes 45 minutes to form an air strike group from an aircraft carrier according to the standards, if everything goes off ideally and without incidents, so they won't even be able to take off normally.

[ironic]

You wake up, they are there and the modernization of the 4 blocks began last year and this year the planned release of the 5th and new version of the Harpoon for medium distances began. LRASMs have long been in service with B-1Bs and supernets, and are now beginning to be fitted to other carriers. The contracts have already reached 4/5 lots and a new contract was approved in February for 414 lemons. When an enemy is detected, no formation of a new group will be required; refuellers will simply be sent to the duty group, which can be both the supernets themselves and new refueling drones. And the new air groups will raise the alarm not at all in 45 minutes after the launch of the first missile. Check out the speed at which Avik can lift airplanes into the sky. And if it is still Ford, even more so. Just don't need me that he will remind combat readiness in the 22nd. Nakhimv will also not be ready this year.

[Charik]

I remember how one guy here, too, Burke-one Su24m killed-that was fun, but the fact that everything rises in price every two months is garbage, Zircons is a panacea for all ills. Although why fight with Russia, they have already strangled economically.

[Avior]

everything is too simple for you
the frequency of updating the coordinates depends on the number of satellites and the frequency of their flight over a given area of ​​the sea, taking into account the need to scan with a given resolution.
in practice, this means that with a pair of active reconnaissance satellites, the update will be once a day, while the aircraft carrier will travel more than a thousand kilometers from one detection to another. The orbits of the satellites are known and the time of obtaining the coordinates of the AUG is also known, at this point in time it will be beyond the radius of destruction from Nakhimov. But Nakhimov himself will be constantly monitored by a coastal or fishery AWACS with refueling, and the coordinates and direction of his movement will be known to the Americans constantly.
The range of the superhornet with one refueling and an additional internal tank is one and a half thousand kilometers; the Americans' refueling by carrier-based aviation has been worked out to the smallest detail. In practice, this means that the Americans will have XNUMX hours to close the distance, strike, and retreat if they fail. And try another day.
Until it works.

[lucul]

the frequency of updating the coordinates depends on the number of satellites and the frequency of their flight over a given area of ​​the sea, taking into account the need to scan with a given resolution.

What is the main disadvantage of a radar satellite? It is passive, because an active radar requires a lot of energy, the satellite's solar batteries are not capable of delivering it. Pion's predecessor had a nuclear reactor on board to operate an active radar. In Peony, this problem was solved differently.

in practice, this means that with a pair of active reconnaissance satellites, the update will be once a day, while the aircraft carrier will travel more than a thousand kilometers from one detection to another

You are now quoting Timokhin to me, I also told him that his information is correct ... but in 1980.
Now the period of revolution of the satellite around the earth is 1 hour, in 1 hour AUG can go no more than 60 km. What thousands, no need to repeat nonsense. The peony will fly at an altitude of 900 km - at this altitude, depending on the radar resolution, the radio horizon will be from 3 km to 000 km.
3 km is the distance from St. Petersburg to ..... Cairo (this is Egypt, if anyone does not know). And in orbit there will be as many as 000 Pion satellites. Imagine their area of ​​coverage of the Earth's surface.

The range of the Super Hornet with one refueling and an additional internal tank is one and a half thousand kilometers,

Combat radius of 750 km at Hornet reaches with a minimum of suspensions under the wings. If he takes the outboard tank (and this is the load), then he will take less missiles. Everything is simple here - you took a suspension tank for 4 tons, and you have a total carrying capacity of 5 tons, then you will take a minuscule missile.

But Nakhimov himself will be constantly monitored by a coastal or fishery AWACS with refueling, and the coordinates and direction of his movement will be known to the Americans constantly.

Nothing of the kind))) Amers have only passive satellites that react to a working radar - they turned off the radar (radio silence mode) and the satellite does not see you, it will only see you in the optical channel, fog, clouds will already be reliably hidden.
The DLRO Hawkeye aircraft has a range of 350 km + a radar range of 350 km. A total of 700 km of detection range, and Zircon hits 1000 km and, thanks to the satellite, will hit the avik even before detection. )))

[Grits]

The whole controversy returned to the topic again - one US aircraft carrier group against one of our "Orlan". They count hundreds of Axes hitting Orlan, hundreds of rockets from Hornets, the air defense capabilities of one (ONE!) Cruiser against a whole pack. Yes, Orlan with such an introduction will not be very sweet. Most likely fatal. But he will drag down a good half of the entire American order to the bottom. One! No American ship is capable of this.
Why not put an introductory one - 1 state AUG against 1 Russian KUG headed by Orlan? With an escort of a pair of BODs, several frigates and at least a couple of "Leopards" under water. This is where all the power of the shtatovites will be blown away. And no supercats and AWACS planes will save you.
Hence the conclusion - the cruiser Orlan, accompanied by an appropriate escort, and even with new weapons - this is certainly very good. Just great. I would say deadly. But better - two Orlan cruisers. Better yet, three Orlan cruisers. 30 Buyanov is also wonderful. And also deadly. But for Buyans.

[ironic]

At best, he will drag one escort ship and if he is very lucky, he will be able to damage one or two more. Well, if the Americans themselves screw it up, it will also damage Avik, not fatally. But honor the whole crew will be dragged to the bottom with you, because they will turn it into colossus. But if such an IBM is assembled, then it will be a large part of the modern fleet of the Russian Federation and not one, but a couple of AUGs will be thrown at it (out of 11, they will not become poorer) and while the IBM tries to deal with one, the second and the Americans will walk through it. with losses, but they will celebrate the beheading of the entire fleet of the oceanic zone of the Russian Federation. Those. Tsushima-2.

[max702]

You forgot the most important thing, namely the Strategic Missile Forces, if our KUG butts with their AUG, this means that the silo mines are empty, and the Yars are nesting in the woods after shooting their gifts and there is no place for our KUG to return ... You will forgive, but today that We are embarrassed that they illuminate each other's planes with a radar, in naval battles for 75 years the main means is bulk (can a ram on ships be returned to heighten the effect?) What are such full-length battles using the entire arsenal of KUG and AUG? Excuse me if this happens, then all the amba of civilization .. All these naval battles are the fruit of the fantasies of Morephiles such as Timokhin and Gidromayor (Physicist) and no more, in real life all these "arguments" were drunk by the military-industrial complex and officers of the Navy, no one else is serious about it does not put .. At the General Staff, thank God, they understand this and do not allow waterfowl to walk around too much ..

[Avior]

... What is the main disadvantage of a radar satellite? It is passive, because an active radar requires a lot of energy, the satellite's solar batteries are not capable of delivering it.

A satellite with a radar is active by definition, otherwise the radar will not be there, it will be on the passive receiver.
And you are right, the current active satellites are low-power, and because of this they are low-orbit, that is, they are vulnerable to existing weapons, with a narrow viewing area, which means that many orbits are needed to view the Earth, and are therefore subject to enemy EW.
Therefore, this is not a wunderwaffe in any way.
Passive satellites are also not a panacea - in the AUG radio silence mode, they have been running for a very long time.
As for the combat radius of 750 km, this is in shock mode (suppression mode - interdict) with a fairly large load and without an internal tank. With an internal tank, the range is 980, with outboard ones, even further. in addition, other Sperhornets can serve as refuelers - they have special suspension equipment for this.
First, the tankers take off, then the percussion tankers, the tankers accompany some distance, then the combat tankers refuel, and return.
The second time they take off for refueling, when the combatants return. The Americans have no problems, if necessary, get a 1500 km radius.
Drlo that Hawkeye, that of a coastal one, is capable of refueling from a coastal refueling tanker, but the enemy will not succeed - carrier-based fighters will not allow someone else's AWACS to hang or refuel it

[Rostislav Prokopenko]

and what a surprise for the F-18 pilots - you fly back, and the airfield is no longer floating, but underwater ...

[Serg65]

Quote: ironic

this I, as it were, did not take into account the F-35C at all, which is not yet fully combat-ready, but theoretically could come up to the launch distance

Sasha, buddy, I'm still in shock ..... how did the American Jews manage to spin you on the F-35 ???? And toko do not say sho your Benny Gantz is a real pap and to other people's pennies is as calm as Madame Matara from Zaporozhye!

Quote: ironic

you also modernize Peter according to the full program of Nakhimov. You will see.

Oh and sho are you so jealous, Sasha? Buy yourself a Zamwalt and you will be happy ... all Arabs will go crazy .... your psychologists will be crazy to work! Just recoup this big fillet ..... even more so they are planning a big sale!

[Sahalinets]

Roman should know that:
1. Brawlers are incapable of fighting in the ocean.
2. They have no anti-aircraft weapons and practically no air defense. The Americans will simply fill up frags.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: ROSS 42

And his thoughts are transparent and understandable.

Pancake! So it breaks from the tongue: "SIMPLICITY IS WORSE than theft!", But this is beaten. So I'm ... politically correct, and the author's address is:

[alexpro66]

Is your last name Kudrin by chance? We have taught you a bunch of advantages .. Local thinking, limited by the view of the room from the couch, does not allow you to simply comprehend the understanding of what a fleet is for a country washed by the seas from 4 sides. Peter the Great 300 years ago understood much better that in galleys, not only in the ocean, in the sea you will not go out! And if we approach it from your point of view, then it is not necessary to develop anything at all, but only strategic nuclear weapons (after all, what kind of economy and prudent spending of funds!). Well, if that ... Bach and the whole world in dust .. Hope that overseas understand this is possible, but as I wrote above, just a little shtetl!

[Novichek]

Budget spending? Yes, in Russia they allocate 300 billion simply for the abstract "support of alternative energy sources", but in fact they simply "cram into their pockets", but here "as much as 100 billion" is just unrealistic a pity to keep a ship that is unique in all respects

[Akela]

The Central Bank bought a billion $ of American securities; the State Duma regards this as a sabotage. This dough was enough to upgrade Lazarev and Kirov. And in 2015, the export of capital from Russia, according to the Accounts Chamber, amounted to $ 500 billion. Cool ! Some, damn it, a yard could not be zealous for the protection of the country that is being robbed! It's like slaughtering the goose that lays the golden egg! Turn on your brain! Otherwise, there will be nowhere to steal! And the world without parity will turn into a nuclear dump. Do you want that ?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: carstorm 11

You shouldn't get into topics where you don’t understand anything, Roman.

And he is not going to understand, it seems.

But one "Buyan-M" costs 9 billion rubles

Only rubles cannot be crammed into the engine room, but there is a lot of tension in the country with ship diesel engines.

We get that in a salvo of 20 "Granites" of the cruiser - 12 kg of explosives.

Everything, by this the author completely revealed himself. What nafig "Granites", what 20 pieces ?! from 80 to 240 vertical missile launchers are indicated in modernization.

Well, 100 billion rubles. this is the price of a maximum of three IL-76MD-90A.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, 100 billion rubles. this is the price of a maximum of three IL-76MD-90A.

Mistake! Thirty ...

[Aleksandr1971]

Roman, you have taken for comparison "Orlan" and "Buyanov" only the capabilities of the PRK, and even then only with the indication that "Granites" are on the "Orlans". Although after the modernization of the Eagles, they can be equipped with the same Onyxes or Calibers, or even Zircons.

But I have a few questions for you:
1) Why didn't you compare the capabilities of 8 or 10 Buyans with one Orlan in terms of air defense and anti-aircraft defense? Probably because even 40 "Buyans" with only one "Orlan" on these sides cannot be compared?

2) As regards anti-ship detection and target designation systems, what is the range for one Orlan and 8-10 Buyans? I dare to assume that the Buyan's target detection radius is many times smaller than that of the Orlan.

3) Of course, the Buyans, unlike the Orlan, have nothing to do off the coast of South America, the Horn of Africa or in Southeast Asia.
Don't you think that Russia's enemy is exclusively the United States and NATO? Don't you think that Russia has no interests in the distant seas? That Russia should not perform gendarme functions against any small enemy states and groups?

4) Do you think that it is so difficult and expensive for Russia to create KUG support ships?

5) If the "Eagles" on the previous points of your answers still turn out to be bad, then do you suggest cutting the "Eagles" on pins and needles?

[antivirus]

And the money, which we, as we know, never have enough, is really worth spending on something more useful and meaningful. On the real security guards. Buyanov, Karakurt, Cheetah.

-the question is not in "violent" "eagles" --And in the number of cattle and sheep in a combination (oddly enough) of factories for the production of cargo and passenger internal combustion engines + X? thousand km of 4-lane highways.
STARTING WITH NIK2 (END OF THE 19th CENTURY) - INDUSTRY Lagged behind and the FSE ENDED (the fleet has not yet been destroyed in Tsushima).
THE GREATNESS OF THE FLEET --------- IN THE QUALIFICATION AND NUMBER OF TOOL MECHANISTS and the diet of those locksmiths.
from the standpoint of a professional military to look at the cash cow, a native country, a crime like "want-want-give-give." does not give GDP and Shoigu. Roman is not the point.

[midivan]

Quote: Alexander1971

Of course, the Buyans, unlike the Orlan, have nothing to do off the coast of South America, the Horn of Africa or in Southeast Asia.
Don't you think that Russia's enemy is exclusively the United States and NATO? Don't you think that Russia has no interests in the distant seas?

Russia has warned that the deployment of American missiles in Japan could threaten security in the region. In response, Japanese users were divided. Some said that it was necessary to send “not simple missiles” towards Russia, others noted that it was time for Japan to act independently, and not rely on US assistance. the Japanese media has been vibrant. Some suggested deploying missiles now and “directing them towards Russia,” others warned against such plans.

“We need to host more than simple missiles. Send 500 nuclear missiles towards Russia! And if you can, then hit! Turn Russia into a sea of ​​fire! " - quotes RIA Novosti the words of a Japanese user under the nickname ywc. He wrote his statement in response to Zakharova's statement posted in the Japanese media ............ Newspaper ru.

[bk316]

But I have a few questions for you:

But that's not the point, Alexander.
Water cannon rowdy with 2,5 meters of precipitation, they will not come out into the ocean, not only in a storm, but with medium waves. You can probably even shove zircons into them, and receive target designation from Pion, only they will stand in Avacha Bay and then neither. And then why are they better than the coastal complex? Moreover, the complex will be covered by the air defense of Kamchatka and no submarine will torpedo it.

[ccsr]

Quote: bk316

But that's not the point, Alexander.
Water cannon rowdy with 2,5 meters of precipitation, they will not come out into the ocean, not only in a storm, but with medium waves.

I think that Skomorokhov's mistake lies in trying to compare two completely different types of ships, in order to choose which is more important for us, based on the cost of one large ship and several small ones, and at the same time, more important criteria are not considered when making such a decision.
In fact, this approach always distinguishes military professionals who understand military economics and those journalists or other naval enthusiasts who have no idea how it all works when it comes to modernizing or building a new series.
I will try to briefly explain how this was done in Soviet times, when this process was approached from a scientific point of view, provided that money from the budget would be allocated.
1. From the very beginning, the prospects of the upgraded ship (or other product) are determined. They proceed not only from physical aging, but also from how much such a ship will be in demand by the fleets. As an example, Khrushchev's reduction, when it was decided that we did not need battleships, and they were either cut or removed from the fleet, and in principle no modernization was considered, regardless of the year of production. I think that the "Admiral Nakhimov" will go according to this option - judging by the information of recent years about the development of our fleet.
2. After determining the prospects of modernization, a detailed calculation of the cost of modernization is made, in order to understand what will be more profitable for us, modernize the old ship, or build a new one. As a rule, in Soviet times, it was considered acceptable for weapons and equipment if the cost of modernization did not exceed 40% of the cost of a new product. If only this figure was exceeded, then the decision was unambiguously made to make a new sample. True, the customer had some trick, when the modernization was allegedly carried out for money, but in fact they were creating a new product - this is usually the case when many components from other manufacturers were used.
3. Further, less significant parameters were taken into account, including whether the ship's crew would be reduced, by how much its combat power would be increased, whether it was possible to install new weapons, whether operating costs would be reduced, etc.
And only after such a deep study, for which research work could be carried out in the event of an expensive modernization, the final decision was made what would be better for the fleet and the country.
This is just an algorithm for a reasonable approach of the Soviet era, but I don't know what our naval commanders now have in their heads, but I believe that state people serve there and understand their responsibility to the fleet and the country.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Alexander1971

Don't you think that Russia has no interests in the distant seas? That Russia should not perform gendarme functions against any small enemy states and groups?

4) Do you think that it is so difficult and expensive for Russia to create KUG support ships?

you read for yourself what you wrote ... why shed your blood somewhere in the world where American capital still rules? if it is so easy to build a KUG, then take it and build it, and we will look at you Alexander ... or is your guts too weak? ... that's the same

[Simargl]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Everything, by this the author completely revealed himself.

Of course he didn't! The ship also has an AK-130. It's too much! Better to deliver 10 AK-190s: the mass of a minute salvo is greater.
And in general: why not just to demonstrate interests anywhere in the world - to get involved with water in general? Pull the ship ashore and concrete!

[Proxima]

Roman has strange logic. This is from the series that the cost of the IS-2 tank is 264 rubles, but the cost of the ZIS-000 anti-tank gun, which penetrates it, is about 2 times cheaper. So let's better produce 15 guns instead of one tank! Only Roman missed one "BUT". If a tank can replace an anti-tank gun, then guns, no matter how many riveted them, will not replace a single tank! The same thing, a missile cruiser can replace the Buyan, but a whole pack of Buyan Orlan will not replace! They have a completely different FUNCTIONALITY! And so, yes, you can calculate a minute volley of IS and 15 guns, as Roman did with ship missiles, and then build meaningful conclusions ...

[Charik]

Or "One Palace"

[Nazar]

carstorm 11 - Well, a person does not understand that with such dimensions - "... only 950 tons of full displacement." - it is impossible to launch missiles even with small waves, these boats were built for the Caspian. From poverty, look at China - destroyers are serially riveted, because they know how and have the means. And we have neither the competencies nor the funds for new ships of the 1st rank, so articles appear in the style of that fox with grapes - they say no, we don't need it. ... That is, they urge our neighbors to follow the path, they also bleat something about the "mosquito fleet" that they are pulling us there too?
And as for the "prudent use of budgetary funds" - at the current oil prices, again all the super-profits are put into the "money box" in billions, then, as always, they will be taken to the banks - this is "prudent" - right? and to direct this money to a normal fleet - the toad presses ... or the "curators" do not order?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Nazar

it is impossible to launch missiles even at small waves

so all these ships on your stupidity? Are you smarter than all the admirals and ministers? why look at china? he is that the light in the window and what does China have to do with Orlanov .. the collapse of logic, some slogans .. well, and the pearl about which there is a lot of money ... you have them in your pocket that you use them so easily ... easy for you to live like I will die with such happiness and not freedom ... not for that money was collected in order to send it down the wind

[Nazar]

vladimir1155 - "admirals and ministers" understand everything perfectly, that's why they repair the cruisers, since we can't build yet. And these boats were built for the Caspian Sea, and only when the construction of frigates stopped due to the lack of engines, it was necessary at least to give the "Karakurt" to the fleet.
And you have "some slogans", the Chinese have built a real fleet and China does not need the "Eagles" they are building 055s in all, they are in no way inferior in power to Orlan and there are not two of them being built there, like we have, but really serially and not just "to be", but meaningful - to staff full-fledged AUG, since they also build aircraft carriers and destroyers 052 there.
As for RTOs or corvettes, here too China is "on horseback" - since 2012, it took less than nine years to build 72 combat units with a total displacement of 1500 tons each. For comparison: on average, the Russian Navy annually receives from industry one Buyan-M (949 tons). - so far only 9 pieces (!)
That's why you write: “Why look at China?” - You are certainly more pleased with the comparison with Ukraine - right?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Nazar

As for RTOs or corvettes, then here too China is "on horseback" - since 2012, for the construction of 72 combat units with a total displacement of 1500 tons

Well, it turns out that all the same, MRK makes sense even for China with its budget ...

[Nazar]

vladimir1155 - I probably didn’t formulate my idea exactly, new RTOs and corvettes of course should be built for the fleet, and in the article the very statement of the question is not correct - which is better than several RTOs or a cruiser? - there is no place for "or", because the "and" is definitely better, the whole line of surface ships is needed.
For a number of reasons, we are not yet able to build ships of the 1st rank, and therefore the repair and modernization of Soviet cruisers is the right decision.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Nazar

there is no place for "or", because the "and" is definitely better, the whole line of surface ships is needed.

again the collapse of logic, all at once and a lot will not work, ... this does not happen, either one or the other, this is called the MO budget limited by the budget law

[bk0010]

Quote: vladimir1155

so all these ships on your stupidity?

These ships are the offspring of the INF Treaty. After its termination, their construction has lost its meaning. They are just launchers for Calibers, just floating, and therefore expensive. They cannot shoot at ships. Karakurt (and analogs) can, but they are not far away and they are even more expensive.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: bk0010

These ships are the offspring of the INF Treaty.

true on the one hand ..... and I think in general surface shock ships are not needed, and I see that the respected Roman Skomorokhov deliberately chose the most unsuccessful MRK to prove that against the background of the failure of 1144, even Buyan does not look so bad, losses from him an order of magnitude less than 1144. And what was your Kuzya a product of? a product of pride and stupidity, it was initially problematic and without tasks, and instead of Nakhimov = Kirov, it would be better if they made 10 vmp 1155, they would provide approaches to Petropavlovsk and Severomorsk.

[ramzay21]

One modernized Orlan, with two hundred Calibers or Zircons cannot be compared with any number of useless MRKs, the crews of which should simply die heroically in an unequal battle with a helicopter or any submarine

[Doccor18]

Quote: carstorm 11

You should not, Roman, get into topics in which you do not understand anything ...

You said everything.
There is nothing to add.

[bayard]

Quote: carstorm 11

You shouldn't get into topics where you don’t understand anything, Roman ... Even I’m a landlord from head to toe, and I realize it ...

I don't even know what to say about the above opus ... I still had a lot more opinion about Skomorokhov ... but THAT heap ... like the Murzilka magazine for preschoolers.
Well, by God, like a kindergarten - "Buyany" give it, but more ...
Yes, together with "Karakurt" (which is much better) have already been built and laid / ordered 30 pieces! What is there to do with this armada - there is no PLO, the seaworthiness is weak, and the Buyans and the air defense do not.
Shoot "Calibers" from the shore?
So "Calibers" only on the ground, with a supersonic second stage, were not accepted for service.
Onyxes?
So for this there are coastal complexes - "Bastions", they will eventually be able to shoot with "Zircon", with a special desire.
And it will go out to sea on its own - the enemy submarine will be devoured with giblets. And aviation.
About "20 anti-ship missiles" Granite "... it's generally a masterpiece. Next year "Admiral Nakhimov" with 80 "Zircons / Onyxes" is returning from modernization. And "Peter" leaves. For modernization.
And everything else is also at the level .... beyond any level.
Truly:

Quote: carstorm 11

You should not, Roman, get into topics in which you do not understand anything ...

[TermNachTer]

the author contradicts himself. He talks about the expediency of modernization and rearmament, but cites as evidence of his point of view the performance characteristics of "Orlan" as of the 90s, and not those that are supposed to be obtained as a result of modernization. I would like to remind, dear author, that Russia can build "brawlers" in any reasonable amount. But the "eagles", alas, in the near future is unlikely. I think that "Lazarev" should be restored. Combat efficiency is not measured in rubles.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: TermNachTER

Russia can build "brawlers" in any reasonable amount. But the "eagles", alas, are unlikely to be strong in the near future. I think that "Lazarev" should be restored. Combat efficiency is not measured in rubles.

you have paralysis of logic in one sentence, like everyone who criticizes the respected Roman here, some slogans and a bunch of emotions, and not a single argument ... well, it is logical if they build what they can, and not what they cannot (and this also applies to money and technology) .... is it crazy for you? are you all always accustomed to doing what you are not able to do? ... but how to restore that Lazarev? he has already been cut, finally descend from your clouds to the sinful earth ... accept reality as it is ... yeah ... here is a typical representative of the aircraft carrier lobby ... no matter how much you put an owl on the globe, your lonely cruiser with all its bells and whistles will sink in your Indian Ocean, not a rocket, but a simple sea mine ... and that they took up arms against the respected Roman that he lowered you to the ground, your wunderwolf needs drinking water and provisions for the crew .. what a horror what a blow to the blue dreams of pink ponies seeing themselves on the bridge of a super ship dissecting the vastness of the Bolshoi Theater, and everyone was amazed by the Soviet ballet (in the form of Kuzi, probably) .. .... and the cowardly Malays all run away like hares, .... they did not run away in tsushima, although your beloved Rozhdestvensky was twice as many ebras, and they won’t run away from Petya, but drown him, there men serve, and not pink ponies .... https://www.youtube.com/ watch? v = F68bbzOOOdY from 6 minutes

[TermNachTer]

So explain to me, logical you are ours, why break something that we cannot do in the near foreseeable future?))) What if you need it and what to do? Even 10 "brawlers" will not replace one "Nakhimov", and after modernization even 20. And what next? Will we add inflatable boats to the "brawlers", like banderlog?))))

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: TermNachTER

Why break what we cannot do in the near foreseeable future?

and you are writing this to me to the very one who defended your Nakhimov, and now I regret that they sawed so much dough on this repair that it would be better not to repair it, but made 5-6 11356 with this money. Of course, what is needed and used prudently, Kuzya should be sold to India to China, the cruiser should be kept in combat readiness until decommissioned, but trying under the guise of repairs to rebuild the old hull is stupid, and Nakhimov's experience showed that it made no sense, therefore Lazarev was cut ... by the way and my auto mechanic, on the quiet, recently sawed one of my cars for metal, it turned out to be more profitable to rent it in metal than to repair it, so it is not always profitable to repair, although we will restore a couple of very old rarities with it, not everything is clear.

[TermNachTer]

Excuse me, I have nothing to do with your "Nakhimov". I live in Ukraine, I just feel sorry for the state. When suddenly, after a couple - three years, it turns out that the "eagles" are needed "to the cut", but they will not be, and it is not possible to build - what will you do?)))

[FRoman1984]

Quote: vladimir1155

Quote: TermNachTER

Why break what we cannot do in the near foreseeable future?

and you are writing this to me to the very one who defended your Nakhimov, and now I regret that they sawed so much dough on this repair that it would be better not to repair it, but made 5-6 11356 with this money. Of course, what is needed and used prudently, Kuzya should be sold to India to China, the cruiser should be kept in combat readiness until decommissioned, but trying under the guise of repairs to rebuild the old hull is stupid, and Nakhimov's experience showed that it made no sense, therefore Lazarev was cut ... by the way and my auto mechanic, on the quiet, recently sawed one of my cars for metal, it turned out to be more profitable to rent it in metal than to repair it, so it is not always profitable to repair, although we will restore a couple of very old rarities with it, not everything is clear.

Vladimir, no 8-9 Buyanov without anti-aircraft defense and anti-aircraft defense, nor 5-6 patrol boats 11356R with a weak, ancient GAK, will not replace one ocean-going ship with powerful strike weapons, strong anti-aircraft defense and anti-aircraft defense and seaworthiness. This is a coastal fleet that will be completely useless in a hypothetical war with Japan, China, and even more so the United States.
To hit the Mujahideen in Syria with "Calibers" is yes, a stationary target, there is no resistance, they cannot answer either. But the brawlers will not be able to cause any harm to destroyers, nuclear submarines, aviation.
Correctly said above, Lazarev can be cut into pieces, if there is a replacement, at least the same destroyer 23560, but after all there is nothing and is not planned.

[Vladimir1155]

agree that mrk was a mistake (caused by DRMSD)

Quote: FRoman1984

one ocean ship

so the fact of the matter is that one ocean ship is useless, simply useless, because one in the sea is not a warrior ... that's why it turns out that the entire function of surface ships is reduced to an ASW within a radius of up to 3000 ks from Severomorsk and Petropavlovka Kamchatka, so that 5 11356, although rather weak, is more useful than one albeit powerful ocean cruiser in the role of a coastal frigate ...

[yehat2]

Quote: vladimir1155

in tsushima did not run away

Quote: vladimir1155

there men serve

oh, how he turned it over))) firstly, the Japanese had a group of about 170 pennants, which was waiting for Rozhdestvensky. They could have sunk our squadron with destroyers alone, but they did them the honor and put out their entire main fleet.
and secondly, any fleet is a pretty harsh thing. It's not easy everywhere. Even in the US Navy, where popcorn lies in the command center of the URO cruiser and gays serve with women.

[Andrey sh]

Not only will the Buyans not reach, but they will not even sail far from the coast. The author did not even hint about their autonomy - it is not at all. As well as the detection range of the enemy - they will be drowned before they find the same AUG.

[matross]

Quote: TermNachTER

the author contradicts himself

Not. Doesn't contradict. This is one huge system error. Roman is a professional dilettante of the fleet. How to convey the request not to write anymore on these topics? It’s very embarrassing to read it later.

[TermNachTer]

However, democracy, sir. Everyone is free to write whatever he wants. And the number of hacks is growing exponentially. Previously, there were two full-time "all-out", now there are four of them. Although I think that these are just different nicknames, and the authors are the same)))

[mvg]

From the language removed ...

[savage1976]

What for? Well this is such a volume of unwritten articles and lost royalties. Well, you can criticize any plane for a small chassis, that a larger engine does not become, that heating radiators of the wrong model are installed in hospitals, films are shot with the wrong content. The novel doesn't like it - it means it's not right, you have to write an article and spend the fee. Does it make sense or not, is it so important?

[Herman 4223]

I immediately looked at who wrote and realized that it was not worth reading.

[venik]

Quote: carstorm 11

You shouldn't get into topics where you don’t understand anything, Roman ... Even I’m a landlord from head to toe, and I realize it ...

========
To be honest - I often "conflict" with Roman on the site ... But in this particular case, he is somewhat RIGHT! To create at least TWO AUG, including a cruiser, 2-4 destroyers and 4-6 frigates (security), we simply do not have enough strength ... And not only because large-capacity warships were built (during the Soviet era) mainly (not completely, namely, mainly) at ChSZ in Nikolaev (now it is bankrupt and is being sold for "needles"), but also because we have very big problems with ship-based gas turbines, which were built mainly in the same Nikolaev .... Now NPO "Zarya-Mashproekt" - "lies on its side" and will soon also cease to exist ...
There is, of course, Rybinsk "Saturn", but the capacity is sorely lacking! And the situation with gearboxes is not so good ..... That is why two frigates of Project 11356 are successfully rusting on the Yantar, and the Black Sea Fleet needs them so much !!! Well, what can you do? The priority is just frigates 22350, but they are also being built slowly (the reason is the same - problems with the power plant)!
For long trips, pr. 22350M is extremely necessary! And already "the day before yesterday"!

The existing ships of the 1st rank are already completely outdated .... Without powerful escort protection, the dream of "long voyages" will remain just a dream! Beautiful, but alas - not realizable ...
Strongly disagree with Roman that 10 Buyanov can replace 1 nuclear cruiser! But 3-4 frigates 22350, and even better 3 frigates 22350M - this is already "closer to the body"! Besides, not only for the protection of the coast or the protection of "monsters" but also for long trips will fit!
PS This is exclusive private an opinion in no way claiming to "the ultimate truth"

[Dart2027]

Quote: carstorm 11

You should not, Roman, get into topics in which you do not understand anything ...

That is to say the least.
The author does not even know that no one will build any Buyans, simply because a series of much more seaworthy Karakurt MRKs is already being built, as anyone who follows the news at least a little knows about.
And the comparison of the volley of 8 Buyanov and Orlan is just one laugh, given the fact that it will be rearmed with modern launchers when modernizing it. 8 RTOs for the same money? So the modernized Nakhimov will have a salvo like 10 MRK (80 missiles), which has already been written a hundred times.

[yehat2]

very one-sided analysis in the article.
In short, Roma compares the function of presence and the function of the area's defense.
which is actually strange to compare. A normal fleet should consist of both types of ships. But you need to start with the little things. And judging by the composition of our fleet, we are creating a very formidable strike fleet, but at the same time the possibilities to protect our interests at sea are very modest. And this is the bias that Roman had in mind. To many, it seems strange and illogical. We are sad with the search for sea mines, sad with the search for submarines, sad with the patrol, etc.

[Bar1]

The eagle needs the protection of submarines as much as an aircraft carrier.
In general, all the conclusions about large weapons carriers can be continued on amphibious carriers, both sea and air. Modern air defense is so developed that the implementation of amphibious operations is simply deadly for the landing. Now it is impossible to say 100% that the enemy's air defense has been suppressed, and without this it is impossible to carry out the landing.
Small carriers of weapons, like boats, have missiles that can hit large ships, so the Angles, for example, who have always been the rulers of the seas, have understood this and try not to overextend themselves with large ships and have pushed all the costs to America.

[Uncle lee]

It would be better if ten Buyans were built.

Novel for "Mosquito Fleet" .... So let's get down to rubber boats with one "Caliber".

[mitroha]

Exactly, and some author will give a justification, in the article
"Log rafts as platforms for launching" Calibers "" cheap and asymmetrical

[dauria]

"Log rafts as platforms for launching" Calibers "

Expensive. Ice floe, frozen water with sawdust and hay. It's cheap and an entire aircraft carrier can be frozen. The idea is not mine, if that.

[TermNachTer]

Yes, Churchill loved all sorts of crazy projects)))

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Mitroha

Log rafts as platforms for launching "Calibers

Here is a typical proponent of aug = kug, all that stupid is offered or rafts or aug, And the third smart balanced is not given? for example, nuclear submarine + MPK + MRK + KRV + FR + coastal aviation + minesweepers

[Alexander X]

Just wanted to write a similar comment. It is strange that the author did not count the cruiser into inflatable boats. After all, you can buy thousands of them for the same money ...
I remembered a quote from an old movie:
"- Professor, I did not sleep at night and wrote a fugue ...
- you have to sleep at night, young man, but the fugue has failed "

[Aleks2048]

Overhaul of "Admiral Nakhimov" may cost 90 billion. That is, 1 to 10. Okay, let's have 8 ships. Just in case, taking into account the rise in prices, embezzlers and our other realities.

Roman is an incredible optimist! If they suddenly write off an Orlan-class cruiser, then no one in the Ministry of Finance will give money for the construction of 8 RTOs, albeit very necessary, this money will simply be deducted from the MO budget in the worst case, and in the best case, the Ministry of Defense will build something else with this money. And this is one of the main problems.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Alex2048

MO will build something else with this money. And this is one of the main problems.

this is YOUR main problem, and the problem of all blind pink ponies of KUG AUG supporters who have lost touch with reality and suffer from manic aircraft carrier ideas, without any logic and common sense, I answer .... that's it! instead of your unnecessary wushderwafles, the MO will be able to order the extremely necessary YARS, S400, TU 160, su57, nuclear submarines minesweepers and in large quantities .... for which all the adequate smart professional forum participants are fighting, we do not want PMV when there were three unnecessary battleships but there were not enough 7 cartridges and field artillery shells, we do not want 62, when all useless battleships turned into infantry suppliers, and there were not enough aircraft tanks and cartridges. Soldiers, fathers and grandfathers, died because of the proud and stupid ideas of Haller Kuznetsov ... but even then and now it turns out that the stupid senseless crowd is more numerous, and minus for the truth furiously, although apart from insulting two words they are unable to connect ... https: // www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh1941k3qEFVk0

[Jacket in stock]

I disagree on at least 2 items.
1 - disposal of "Lazarev" was not very free, practically minus one conditional "Buyan".
2- taken as an example "Buyan", as the most controversial ship in the fleet, rather discredits the proposed idea. It would be better if the author counted not in "Buyans", but, say, in frigates 22350, at least suitable for real combat service.

[mark1]

It is necessary to count in parrots. When I started reading, at first I was a little dumbfounded, I thought that Timokhin had gone to pieces (sorry, Alexander, for God's sake), urgently ran to the end of the author's article to watch ... Roman ...
Well, why not consider the situation in terms of the effectiveness of use in a tank-hazardous direction somewhere near Voronezh in comparison with a motorized rifle division?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: mark1

Timokhin went to razor

Timokhin has nothing to say, all his arguments have long been defeated by me, it is weak for him to argue, so he became thoughtful,

[V1er]

The ships have completely different classes and tasks. Answer: Nothing is better, you need both That and That. Better 2 missile cruisers for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet. Better 20 Karakurt (reworked Brawler) for each of the 4 fleets.

[Per se.]

Quote: V1er

Answer: Nothing is better, you need both That and That.

[pin_code]

The author considers the modernization of Nakhimov in current prices, and the price of the brawlers of the "days of the past" ... I think, after all, not 10 or even 8 brawlers for 90 lard can now be ordered. and this is just the first. Now they are building brawlers and karakurt. in total about 30 units will be over time. build corvettes and frigates. but they do not build larger ships. therefore, in my opinion, it is necessary to modernize both the Atlanteans and the Eagles in order to extend their service life by another 15-20 years. also 1155 needs to be upgraded.

[Graz]

on the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Ocean there must be in each fleet either 1 flagship of the Orlan project or one flagship of the new destroyer project Leader

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Graz

should be in every fleet and

who needs it and why?

[Runway]

Theories and dreams are smashed against the texture of "Fight with what we have."
Taking into account the multiple preponderance of the Yankees + NATO + non-NATO (Japs / Yuzhkors and other Australopithecus) in the number of steamships / boats / airplanes over the Russian Navy at any time, the military men are faced with the task of ensuring the deployment of missile defense systems and not drowning the steamers in the PB (covering the sea sections of the corresponding TVD).
The author's idea of ​​Buyans / Karakurt and other RTOs instead of "white elephants" is not new. Combat performance comparisons are not entirely correct.
The existing and planned "white elephants" - two 1144 and three 1164 can gather in a "mighty heap" in one of the two naval theaters. The same TO (the shortest distance to the States, and the air is only due to AUS in 3-4 air steamers).
Such a group will be able to throw the mainland states of the Kyrgyz Republic with SBS even on the condition of a "one-way trip."
A highly controversial article ...

[Simargl]

Quote: WFP

A highly controversial article ...

Extremely controversial?
The whole message is that we sit and do not protrude until the world becomes calmer without us.

[Runway]

The article is a subjective view of what is happening in the sausage society.

[3danimal]

If they have a pair of AUG on their way, they will not pass. Hokai - for patrol, and a dozen MAPLs can attack.
It's a bad idea to send ships on such voyages.

[Runway]

"We fight with what we have." In the situation with our military men, the creation of a strike group in one of the two theaters of operations in a special period allows creating the likelihood of a threat.
Accordingly, the adversary (to whom the partner is a matter of taste) must increase his SIS in the theater of operations.
Given that the AVO will push everything into the seas, the Yankees traditionally, in order to ensure superiority as a guarantee of victory, must have a triple advantage in corps, having absolute air superiority outside the combat radius of the Aerospace Forces.
Warmoors are martyrs and will go to heaven (as the head of the club said).

[jonht]

Roman, 8 Buyans will not be able to solve problems in the ocean zone. They are for the coastal area and they need shelter in storms, the same cruiser has no restrictions not in terms of seaworthiness, not in the range of passage. There are no restrictions on drinking water for a long time, there are desalination plants everywhere, products are replenished in neutral ports and for this there is no need to carry them in a refrigerator. Replenishment of weapons and wartime at sea is unlikely, for this our fleet reopens PMTO points abroad.

[Non-fighter]

As for "Kirov", the numbers were voiced to us at the construction site. There are 8 desalination plants on the ship, 1 ton of water per hour. The crew needs 20 tons of water per day under conditions of temporary water supply (yes, there were commands for the broadcast "Water supplied to the cabins and washbasins", "Water supplied to the dishwashers of the personnel"), and 120 tons for a bath day once a week, as a rule on Saturday.

[3danimal]

It is strange that the author so grasped at these Buyans. From its price tags it turns out that at the price of repairing Nakhimov, you can take 2 frigates 22350 and 3 corvettes 20385. Which is much better.

[Roman81]

By the same logic, retrogrades from the Ministry of Defense buy planes instead of MANPADS and tanks instead of ATGMs. Yes, and artillery is not needed, there is AK ... One thing I do not understand - why then Buyany? The calibers should be launched from the shore and all business ...

[TerraSandera]

Hmm, to compare the combat effectiveness of a cruiser and an MRK in kg of explosives? Well, any tanker, dry cargo ship will do them all, after modernization)
Well, and somehow strange, to compare 10 coastal boats (modern) and a ship built 30 years ago. At the same time, do not consider what and how it is being modernized. Ie, count in the current body kit, but already with 90 billion spent.
The article is even fake at first glance. And it's not up to us to compare them.

[antivirus]

it is necessary to spin up the discussion. the goal is achieved. arguing piquant vests about Clemenceau .. and ..?

[Per se.]

It would be better if ten Buyans were built.

Hardly any better. It's not just quantity versus quality, cruiser modernization, it is the preservation and development of technology, the accumulation of experience. To begin to design and build battleships, cruisers, at one time the Soviet Union had to cooperate with the Italians before the war, then study captured ships, gain their experience to create an ocean-going fleet. Money cannot buy it, it cannot be received instantly.

One nuclear cruiser will not replace one hundred such "Buyans" as one hundred bicycles will not replace one tank. It is clear that this is "either-or", not from a good life, but such a life is not from the good logic of "effective managers" who will not change their Lexuses and Bentleys for a hundred bicycles, but for the fleet one can also engage in demagogy hiding behind a folk penny. We cannot build ships of this class now, and refusing to modernize would be stupidity, sabotage, to the delight of our "partners".

[jayich]

This is damn nonsense, takr is the core of the fleet and squadron, this is a powerful extinguisher, this is a powerful air defense, the smaller the ship, the less it sees who will give the karakuts tsu, and the use of weapons in difficult weather conditions. And so you can endlessly enumerate.

[Azis]

Money...

overhaul and re-equipment of "Nakhimov" will cost at least 90 billion rubles

15-20 "Colonels Zakharchenko" (governors, their deputies, mayors, other officials) can be found in modern Russia. And you need !.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Azis

15-20 "Colonels Zakharchenko" (governors, their deputies, mayors, other officials) can be found in modern Russia. And you need !.

Money alone will not help. It is only liberal economists who have a direct conversion of money into goods. In real life, there is a small intermediate link between money and goods - the manufacturer. And this is where the main difficulties begin: remember how the management of Zvezda, having signed a contract for DEU for RTOs, suddenly discovered that it would not be possible to increase output to the volumes required by the contract - there were no personnel and technical capabilities. Money - here it is, but there is no product. Or take Taganrog, which successively flunked three government contracts for the Be-200, and the second had to be torn apart in court after a three-year delay in the release of the lead aircraft (after the contract was renewed, the aircraft took off at the end of 2020 - instead of 2014).
Plus to that. each manufacturer has a cloud of subcontractors (many of which are monopolists, i.e. walk around the market and look for useless), and they have their own subcontractors - and one should not expect a rapid increase in output from this chain either.

[Azis]

You're right. But money, in current realities, can still solve at least staffing opportunities. If a qualified employee is guaranteed a job, and not a contract for 2-3 months, and then a kick in the ass, according to the personnel policy of the USC ... For technical INABILITIES, it would be desirable to ask the "effective" and those who were before them - all kinds of privatizers often both equipment and technologically worked out - alas ... sold out, plundered and lost. Well, just for a laugh:

Astrakhan shipyards may receive a breakdown of contracts due to the departure of workers for fishing.

URL:
http://sudostroenie.info/novosti/32623.html?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fyandex.ru%2Fnews%2Fstory%2FAstrakhanskie_verfi_mogut_poluchit_sryv_kontraktov_iz-zaotezda_rabotnikov_narybalku--563a2ae00324d5d2a23b62a3375bedbe
Fishermen in a season can get a little more than a ship hull at the factory.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Azis

Well, just for a laugh:

Astrakhan shipyards may receive a breakdown of contracts due to the departure of workers for fishing.

What is there to laugh about? A well-known picture for any shipyard in Russia ... at the end of the XNUMXth century.
Then Kazi still complained that in the spring and autumn, work at the shipyards was practically impossible due to the mass departure of workers (first of all, unskilled workers) to their families in the villages for agricultural work.

[Bez 310]

"AUG of the US Navy is approaching, say, the Kuriles."
Why, in what place, at what distance?

[3danimal]

Spherical horses in vacuum ..

[Tneburashka]

More importantly, a drill or a jackhammer

[Stas157]

Quote: Tneburashka

More importantly, a drill or a jackhammer

Of course, a drill)) I have five drills and not a single bump stop. Because the drill is certainly more important for me personally. But the choice between a hammer drill and a drill does not look so straightforward. By necessity, they are about the same. At home, of course.

[Couchexpert]

Not even so: which shoe size is better: 35th or 42nd?

[Boa kaa]

Quote: CouchExpert

Which shoe size is better: 35 or 42?

For Yankee Marines - 35th, if 34th is not found!
And for a ballerina - 42nd, and even better 45th, with an iron horseshoe!

In fact, the Scots were right when they said:

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

More importantly, a drill or a jackhammer

At home, a puncher is a must have.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Tneburashka

More importantly, a drill or a jackhammer

Yes, you, my friend, are not a dentist !?

[FRoman1984]

Author,
1. An eagle does not need an escort.
2. After the upgrade, there will be 80 cells for Caliber / Onyx / Zircon.
3. Buyans have almost zero air defense and anti-aircraft defense.
4. Lazarev would definitely be needed. Let it be worth 10 brawlers. This is the Ocean Zone ship.

[3danimal]

1. An eagle does not need an escort.

4. Lazarev would definitely be needed. Let it be worth 10 brawlers. This is the Ocean Zone ship.

He alone has nothing to do in the ocean. AUG has the advantage in awareness, strike distance, and the number of weapons.
It also has modern 1-2 MAPLs that will sink any ship.

Buyans have almost zero air defense and anti-aircraft defense.

And knowing this, you can send a couple of MPSs from the escort "to their souls" and drown them with impunity, or highlight them with "Hokai" and score with "Harpoons" from several F-18s.

[lucul]

AUG has the advantage in awareness, strike distance, and the number of weapons.

What advantage will it have if Peony hangs in orbit? ))))

[3danimal]

Satellites do not hang, but fly in the first space.
And only aircraft / UAVs can reliably give target designation.

[lucul]

Satellites do not hang, but fly in the first space.

Well, for this, several are launched to cover the dead zones.

And only aircraft / UAVs can reliably give target designation.

So it was before))) But with the launch of Peony, everything will change)))

[3danimal]

They were launched by 4 pieces. Even one narrow section of the water area (the exit from the bay, for example) they will not be able to view regularly.
And these are RTR satellites, therefore, knowing their trajectory and orbital period, you can pass unnoticed in radio silence.
There are no miracles.
Without AV nearby and AWACS, the missile battle cruiser is severely limited.
I am not saying that the attack can be complex, with the participation of the Premier League.

[lucul]

They were launched by 4 pieces. Even one narrow section of the water area (the exit from the bay, for example) they will not be able to view regularly.
And these are RTR satellites, therefore, knowing their trajectory and orbital period, you can pass unnoticed in radio silence.
There are no miracles.
Without AV nearby and AWACS, the missile battle cruiser is severely limited.
I am not saying that the attack can be complex, with the participation of the Premier League.

There are 5 passive satellites Lotus-S in orbit. Each contact spot (on Earth) is about 3 km.
If you focus only on the approaches to Russia, then there will be no dead zones.
We also need 5 active satellites Pion-NKS (the first will be launched only this year). And now you can't hide from them.

[3danimal]

The dimensions of the "contact patch" do not mean anything, you still need to make out something.
And they will not give out target designation, they will serve as something like a ZGRLS in space.
And the "large" size of the group will make it easy to knock it out in the appropriate period.
You need at least something like AV Varan with deck AWACS.
It will not work “cheap and cheerful”, going out to “make war” in the ocean is suicide, without the possibility of even completing a combat mission.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: 3danimal

And knowing this, you can send a couple of MPSs from the escort "to their souls" and drown them with impunity, or highlight them with "Hokai" and score with "Harpoons" from several F-18s.

are you talking about the BF and the Black Sea Fleet? and what for coastal aviation underwater tracking systems and coastal missile systems? so in our example, just Buyans with karakurt will perform a combat mission, and 1144 will ingloriously sink in the Indian Ocean

[3danimal]

are you talking about the BF and the Black Sea Fleet

I'm talking about the ocean (read the comments above), where sending one is definitely not worth it.
But, unlike Buyans with Karakurt, he will NOT drown / cripple during excitement, he will be able to snap back for a while, incl. from submarines.
And small things in the ocean will be melted like in a dash (nuclear submarines and carrier-based aircraft).

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: 3danimal

And small things in the ocean will be melted like in a dash

will not sink because she will not go there alone

[3danimal]

Who will he go with?
In addition, in unfavorable weather, it will not go anywhere. Unlike Cruisers and frigates. (Restrictions on seaworthiness)
Let me explain for the lin cruiser (Nakhimov):
with him he needs at least one 21350th, 2-3 20385th and MAPL. The same helicopters are larger.
And the ships of the near sea zone have no place there.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: 3danimal

Unlike Cruisers and Frigates. (Restrictions on seaworthiness)

at least karakurt, at least 1144, even though frigates cannot break away from the coast and coastal means, in addition to the wind in the open sea, there are also enemies ... only nuclear submarines go far

[3danimal]

If they are not "led", even more so with the aim of destroying them.
The lin cruiser and frigates are better adapted to the oceanic zone, when attacking (if everything is in good order and the crews are prepared), they can fight back for a while. For maximum efficiency, of course, you need some kind of AB.
A trifle, even if there is a lot of it, is helpless.

[ironic]

1. Without an escort, he will go to the bottom faster, that's right.
2. Ie one hit to the ship and minus 80 tons of launchers.
3. The museum did not work out of it anymore, so it went for scrap, but from Nakhimov it could work.

[3danimal]

New ones cannot be made. With the same Gorshkovs - not a lot, project 20385 - too, they are scattering their forces on the production of small things.
Without an escort, it's madness to release into the ocean (in a war, of course).

[ironic]

Well, they are doing the 350th. It already turns out them. Those. if, as they like to write here, take an example from an adversary, you need to put in a series and figure out like an adversary Burke. Vaughn Americans begin a series of frigates. So it seems that at least 20 pieces will be thrashed at once. And the fact that they come up with all alone in the dust, well, this ... that ... you want to wave a saber virtually, and the saber is not yet that much in stock. So people write rare game.

[3danimal]

I think the re-equipment of the URO cruisers was conceived due to the impossibility of making frigates 21350 quickly and in a large series.
Which, in the amount of at least a couple of pieces, (instead of the Nakhimov upgrade) would look more preferable.
And, if it is covered by frigates and corvettes and MAPLs, it will be able to act on the anti-ship missile / KR platform and long-range air defense, "replacing" 2-3 frigates in this capacity.

[ironic]

I think yes, they realized that there would be no oceanic fleet left, but they didn’t figure out what it would result in if they tried to turn such a giant ship upside down. I think there were a lot of interested parties because the volume of work and, accordingly, the money is great. And the practical value of 3 350 is certainly more than one such mastadont. If you create a battle group for him, then of course he can be useful as an arsenal ship. But for this it is necessary to cram half of the new ships of the Northern Fleet into this group. And at TF I don't even know ...

[codetalker]

For some reason, the author is guessed from the first lines of the article ... Or even from the title)

[shoroh]

It turns out interesting. The point of the article is that you do not need to build something very expensive and complex, preferring to be limited to a bunch of simple and inexpensive ones. This is the same as the USSR in the 50s, instead of developing rocketry, would spend all its energy on creating a huge number of strategic bombers. It is unlikely that then we would become a superpower, without space. We need both Buyans and Orlans. And conditional superpots. Are Hypothetical Leaders Needed? Probably, in the end, we really need the ships of the first rank. The only question is the speed of their construction and the preservation of competencies for their production.

[Franc]

Are the capabilities of finding and using weapons in the waters of the North Atlantic comparable to the ships of Project 1144 and, not even Buyan and Karakurt, but Project 22350? Around the world, travel between ports, do not take into account.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

48 S-300FM missiles at long range can greatly complicate the life of aircraft. But there are only 12 missiles in the Fort-M drums, the rest will need to be reloaded.

First, not 48, but, most likely, 92 or even 96, since the Nakhimov's Fort installations are being upgraded to Fort-M. Secondly, I don’t understand at all how one can undertake to write about the navy, but don’t know that Nakhimov does not have “12 missiles in drums,” but 12 installations containing 96 missiles, and there is no need to reload them. Peter the Great has one "Fort" for 48 missiles and one "Fort-M" for 46 missiles, which is why I do not quite understand the total number of missiles on the modernized "Nakhimov". But we are talking about 92-96 missiles.

What are 8 Buyan-M-class ships? It is, as it is easy to calculate, 64 "Onyx" and "Caliber". Let's take a look at the numbers.

And we will see that the modernized "Nakhimov" carries the UKSK for 80 cells, that is, 80 "Onyxes" and "Calibers". In other words, even in terms of the number of cruise missiles, the Nakhimov outperforms the brawlers by a factor of 1,25.

Hypothetical situation: AUG of the US Navy is approaching, say, the Kuriles. A detachment of 8 RTOs comes out to meet and fires a preemptive salvo, hiding behind the islands.

I don't even know how to comment on it. Placing eight Buyans on the disputed islands means losing them there, since these islands are within the range of the most powerful Japanese Air Force, which we simply have nothing to reflect - well, there is no way to place serious air forces there, and the existing Su-35 link on Iturup weather won't do. We have no aircraft carriers that could help. And the United States does, so it is a matter of technology to identify the ships and destroy them, especially since there is no air defense on them from the word "absolutely". Place them somewhere behind the islands in Okhotsk, removing them from under attack? So they will not have time to go anywhere, with their parade speed of 25 knots maximum in calm water. The Sea of ​​Okhotsk is a little bit not a lake.
TARKR, who wanted to spit on excitement, and which can quickly advance to the line of a missile attack, maintaining a speed of 30 knots for a long time, is a little different matter.

However, even if planes can do damage, it will not be huge. Here, rather, destroyer missiles.

Napalm :)))) In fact, it is aircraft that are the main striking force, not ships. And the unfortunate RTOs they "snap" without any problems at all, not really straining.

The bombs GBU-32 JDAM (450 kg) and GBU-31 JDAM (907 kg), although adjustable, but ...

Novel! Stop !! I beg!!!:)))))
Both of these bombs are not designed to hit a moving target. For this they have the AGM-154 JSOW. And old Mavericks will be enough for our Buyans

it will be more difficult to hit a small and maneuvering RTO with a free-fall bomb than a cruiser

H ... what? :))))) Well, yes, it's such an unbearable difficulty - getting into a ship under a thousand tons of displacement going at a maximum speed of 25 knots (46,3 km per hour). Roman, continue to "talk" further - a tank that has a much lower mass and multiples of smaller dimensions, despite the fact that its speed is much higher (up to 70 km per hour) will easily dodge any ATGM!
In general, the article is yet another proof that the "mosquito fleet" is supported by those who know absolutely nothing about the modern fleet.

[Bez 310]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Well, yes, this is such an unbearable difficulty - to get into a ship under a thousand tons of displacement going at a maximum speed of 25 knots (46,3 km per hour).

And you yourself tried to get into a motionless
ship with an ordinary bomb? In a past life to me
I had to do this, and I'll tell you what -
hit a ship with an ordinary bomb from a Tu-22m3 aircraft
length of 130 meters is possible only by accident.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Bez 310

And you yourself tried to get into a motionless
ship with an ordinary bomb?

:))))) I believe that you were misled by the phrase

It will be more difficult to hit a small and maneuvering RTO with a free-fall bomb than a cruiser.

So yes, of course, it is very difficult to get into the ship with a free-falling (that is, uncontrolled) aerial bomb. But Roman in his article incorrectly uses the term "free falling" :)))) He writes

The bombs GBU-32 JDAM (450 kg) and GBU-31 JDAM (907 kg), although adjustable, but ... getting a free-falling bomb into a small and maneuvering MRK will be more difficult than into a cruiser.

That is, he does not know that "corrected" is one class of bombs, and "free-falling" - another, having made a mistake in this. And he invites RTOs to dodge homing ammunition

[Bez 310]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Of course, it is very difficult to get into the ship with a free-falling (that is, uncontrolled) aerial bomb. But Roman in his article incorrectly uses the term "free falling"

Yes it is.

[Ivanchester]

I thought that unguided ammunition on ships is used only by the Argentine Air Force, and that is not because of the good life.
Was this really planned in our MRA?

[Bez 310]

Quote: Ivanchester

Was this really planned in our MRA?

I will not talk about the MRA plans, there is no MRA, there are no plans either. But
bombing the enemy naval base was considered ..
On our test site as one of the targets for visual
bombing was a transport ship, hence the work experience.

[EvilLion]

And "Orlan" will make the weather?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

And "Orlan" will make the weather?

Weather - in what sense? Its seaworthiness allows missiles to be used up to the borders at which these missiles can fly. If we talk from the point of view of the war at sea, then not a single Orlan, nor 8-9 MRKs to replace it on their own will make any difference.

[EvilLion]

Well, what is the conclusion from this besides the fact that there is no way to defeat a technologically comparable enemy if he has 10 times more units?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

Well, what is the conclusion from this besides the fact that there is no way to defeat a technologically comparable enemy if he has 10 times more units?

We have no goal of destroying the US Navy with the forces of the Russian Navy. We have tasks to provide NSNF and be able to "punish" the Navy of any country except the United States in a local conflict

[EvilLion]

For example, the Navy of China, or Japan, which does not have a normal army, have an equal population to us and a fleet of any more powerful than what we might have in the Pacific?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

For example, the Navy of China, or Japan, which does not have a normal army, have an equal population to us and a fleet of any more powerful than what we might have in the Pacific?

Yes. And yes, such a task can only be solved taking into account the inter-theater maneuver of forces. But this is already a matter of politics

[EvilLion]

Can it still be easier to destroy a couple of naval bases with nuclear bombs?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

Can it still be easier to destroy a couple of naval bases with nuclear bombs?

Simpler. But it certainly isn't better. Firstly, it is far from the fact that the destruction of a pair of naval bases will resolve the issue that needs to be resolved in the course of a local conflict. Secondly, the mass death of the civilian population (and it is inevitable when using nuclear weapons) will lead to the fact that the rest of the world will "attack" us, moreover - in reality, and not at the level of today's sanctions.
No power wants to do business with those who are ready to be the first to use nuclear weapons on a secondary matter.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

No power wants to do business with those who are ready to be the first to use nuclear weapons on a secondary matter.

what nonsense, what kind of power where did you see it the whole world under the boot of American TNCs and the Federal Reserve System, they have dollars in their eyes, and "Powers" can swoon even without hitting the vmb, just give CNN the command to face ... but they respect the strong and afraid, so that nuclear weapons are our everything.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

what nonsense

Don't be so nervous about humiliation of your favorite mosquito fleet again

Quote: vladimir1155

what power where did you see it the whole world under the boot of American TNCs and the Fed, they have dollars in their eyes

It’s strange. But what about the reptilians from Nibiru?

Quote: vladimir1155

and the "Powers" can get angry without hitting the vmb, only CNN give the command to face ...

Already given. And nothing, we live. But by using nuclear weapons on a secondary occasion, you will truly quarrel with the whole world, and today's sanctions will be remembered as heaven on earth.

Quote: vladimir1155

but they respect and fear the strong, so that nuclear weapons are our everything.

Vladimir, I have to admit that you are unable to distinguish strength from stupidity.
In all countries, be they democracies or despots, there are certain taboos inherent in these countries. Sometimes they are unique (say, dictated by religion), sometimes they are common to a number of countries. So the use of nuclear weapons in a local conflict is taboo. That is why the United States, having reached an impasse in Korea and, in fact, having lost in Vietnam, did not dare to use nuclear weapons.
Today, from the Russian Federation in the same West, they are diligently molding the image of an enemy. It turns out quite so-so, because the people of the West are very interested in working with us. Hence the slipping of a number of sanctions, and the absence of sanctions that could really put us in the lotus position. And the fact that China and many Asians don't care about US sanctions at all.
The use of nuclear weapons would convince everyone that we are enemies. They would have shied away from us for real.
Unlike you, the leadership of the Russian Federation understands how utterly stupid it would be to use nuclear weapons in a local conflict. That is why the Russian Federation has identified 4 cases in which the Russian Federation will use nuclear weapons
1) the receipt of reliable information about the launch of ballistic missiles that attack the territory of Russia or its allies;
2) the use by the enemy of nuclear weapons or other types of weapons of mass destruction against Russia or its allies;
3) the enemy's influence on critical state or military facilities of Russia, the disabling of which will lead to the disruption of the response actions of the nuclear forces;
4) aggression against Russia using conventional weapons, when the existence of the state is threatened.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In all countries, be they democracies or despots, there are certain taboos inherent in these countries. Sometimes they are unique (say, dictated by religion), sometimes they are common to a number of countries. So the use of nuclear weapons in a local conflict is taboo. That is why the United States,

used nuclear weapons against Hiroshima and Nagasaki with no other purpose other than intimidating the Russians ..... young man you are at least twice my age and have never been involved in international politics, unlike me ... only the presence of nuclear weapons stopped the use of US nuclear weapons in the USSR, or they fought with such weak countries that the use of nuclear weapons was unnecessary, and they fought for the sake of seizing the resources of these countries, and not for the sake of getting a desert in their place .... read those protocols by which the United States live their axiom "right in force ", or" ethics aesthetics and other nonsense is just his personal servant ... "and in general where did you dig up the term" the whole world "? the West hates Russia for centuries and dreams of dismembering it and seizing resources, while the peoples of other countries have already been dismembered and robbed, they hate the United States and the EU so much that they have no hatred for the Russian Federation, rather sympathy ...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

young man you are at least twice my age

So you are 92 years old? Well ... that explains a lot. At this age, the inability to perceive the opponent's argumentation and absolute confidence in one's own righteousness, in general, is understandable.

Quote: vladimir1155

used nuclear weapons against Hiroshima and Nagasaki with no other purpose than intimidating the Russians ...

I understand that this is what they told you at school, but actually everything was much simpler.
First, the Americans did not understand the consequences of the use of nuclear weapons. They took atomic weapons seriously as a "very powerful bomb" and nothing more. This is absolutely true - if it were otherwise, they would never have conducted a series of Desert Rock exercises. For example, on November 1, 1951, 11 thousand soldiers observed an atomic explosion of more than 18 kilotons, then part of the forces made a foot march towards the epicenter, stopping and retreating at an elevation of one kilometer from it.
Of course, you can hit on conspiracy theories, and assume that the Americans put experiments on the soldiers themselves. But even in this case, it is quite obvious that the Americans did not understand the consequences of nuclear weapons. If you understood - why would you experiment?
Secondly, the Americans did not understand the real state of affairs in Japan itself. They had just fought in Iwo Jima and had seen the fanatical tenacity with which the Japanese were fighting in their territory. Accordingly, the American military seriously believed that the landing on the Japanese islands would cost them at least a million deaths.
In view of the foregoing, it is obvious that the Americans had more than enough grounds for the use of nuclear weapons, in addition to the impression they planned to make on the USSR.

Quote: vladimir1155

and have never been involved in international politics like me

You have no idea about international politics. Even if they did it, which I do not believe at all.

Quote: vladimir1155

from the use of US nuclear weapons was stopped only by the presence of nuclear weapons in the USSR

That is, in your opinion, the USSR would have got into a nuclear war over North Korea? Vietnam? Seriously?:))))))

Quote: vladimir1155

or they fought with such weak countries that the use of nuclear weapons was not necessary

They LOST the Vietnam War. But nuclear weapons were not used.

Quote: vladimir1155

and they fought for the sake of capturing the resources of these countries, and not for the sake of obtaining a desert in their place.

Uh-huh. And what resources did the United States plan to receive in North Korea?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Uh-huh. And what resources did the United States plan to receive in North Korea?

you show a complete lack of understanding ignorance of situations, North Korea was a confrontation between the West of the USSR + China, Russian pilots and Chinese soldiers fought against the United States, so the use of nuclear weapons against North Korea is the beginning of the third world, it was clear to everyone ... oh, naive Americans did not know about radiation .... you sanchess word kindergarten nursery group?
.... When US President Harry Truman was reported in July 1945 about the successfully tested first atomic bomb, the politician exclaimed: "Finally, I have a club against these Russian guys!" And in December 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff adopted the Totality plan, which called for the bombing of 20 Soviet cities with bombs similar to the one that the Americans dropped on Hiroshima. In 1948, a new plan was adopted - Trojan, according to which 70 Soviet cities were to be smashed to smithereens with 133 atomic bombs. A year later, another plan appeared - Dropshot: 104 target cities and 292 atomic bombs. America did not have that much, but according to the plan, by 1956 it should have accumulated. The strike was scheduled for January 1, 1957. And if the USSR had not had its own atomic bomb by August 1949, who knows how the war with the United States, scheduled for 1957, would have ended.
Source: https://versia.ru/zapad-otvergaet-strategiyu-otvetnogo-udara-po-rossii-i-sobiraetsya-nachat-vojnu-pervym

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

you show a complete lack of understanding ignorance of the situation, North Korea was a confrontation between the West of the USSR + China, Russian pilots and Chinese soldiers fought there against the United States, so the use of nuclear weapons against North Korea is the beginning of the third world, it was clear to everyone

:)))) That is, killing Soviet and Chinese soldiers with bullets, bombs and shells is possible, this does not lead to the beginning of the third world war, but nuclear weapons - is it impossible? :)))) As I already wrote

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

You have no idea about international politics. Even if they did it, which I do not believe at all.

Quote: vladimir1155

.... When US President Harry Truman was reported in July 1945 about the successfully tested first atomic bomb, the politician exclaimed: "Finally, I have a club against these Russian guys!"

So what? How does this contradict what I wrote? :))))) Try to read it again. Well, or ask your nurse to read it aloud to you.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

In view of the foregoing, it is obvious that the Americans had more than enough grounds for the use of nuclear weapons, in addition to the impression they planned to make on the USSR.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

this does not lead to the beginning of the third world war, but nuclear weapons - is it impossible? :)))

the obvious is not clear to the kindergarten? the security system will not wait for a second strike, but rather inflict it immediately after the takeoff of enemy missiles, and will not find out if it is flying to Korea or Vladivostok, is this new to you? Note that there is no way to neutralize, disable or destroy the "Perimeter", because it was created to work in the conditions of "applied armageddon". In the event of damage to the main communication lines (or blocking them by the enemy's electronic warfare systems), the system launches command ballistic control missiles, which will transmit the starting impulse directly to the Strategic Missile Forces mines, submarines and other complexes that survived the enemy strike, for a nuclear response without the participation of the high military command. It is no coincidence that Western military analysts have called this system "Dead hand". https://ria.ru/20170821/1500527559.html

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

the obvious is not clear to the kindergarten? the security system will not wait for a second strike, but rather inflict it immediately after the takeoff of enemy missiles, and will not find out if it is flying to Korea or Vladivostok, is this new to you?

Grandpa, I understand that "the affairs of bygone days" is hard for you to remember. We discussed the war in NORTH KOREA. This is what you wrote (I repeat, but then suddenly dementia tortured you):

Quote: vladimir1155

you show a complete lack of understanding ignorance of the situation, North Korea was a confrontation between the West of the USSR + China, Russian pilots and Chinese soldiers fought there against the United States, so the use of nuclear weapons against North Korea is the beginning of the third world, it was clear to everyone

The war went on from 1950 to mid-1953. I’m not saying that at that time there was no early warning system in nature. But the first American ballistic missile went on duty in 1959, the first Soviet - in 1962.
And in those days, they threw nuclear bombs, which could easily be used in Vietnam - and no early warning system would have done anything.

Quote: vladimir1155

It is no coincidence that Western military analysts called this system "Dead hand"

Which is ABSOLUTELY not designed to react in the event that a certain power (not ours) is attacked by nuclear weapons.
Vladimir, you are not tired of being disgraced yet?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Which is ABSOLUTELY not designed to react in the event that a certain power (not ours) is attacked by nuclear weapons.

you are a young man completely unaware of that time, you are a product of the traitor Gorbachev, and you do not have block thinking, my generation also knows films about spies and saboteurs, we ourselves caught saboteurs, in the form of a suspicious mushroom picker in the forest and the counselors took it seriously, and only then decided that it was probably just a mushroom picker crawling in the grass in search of mushrooms. and not a mining forest ... you are probably a wild young man? you do not judge about the time that you know him at all, learn history, you have a two in history ... at that time there was another analogue of a dead hand, in the form of an instant reaction to a nuclear strike against the USSR and its allies who had appropriate military treaties, security .... do you really think that the United States could bomb Germany, Poland, Korea, Cuba with impunity? here he is an example of a modern young man dunno .... also tell me that there was no bread in the USSR and there was a shortage for everything? complete nonsense in your head.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

you are a young man completely unaware of that time

"Don't go into yourself, mechanic, they will find you there in no time!" (from)
In short, the only meaningful phrase in your stream of consciousness is

Quote: vladimir1155

at that time there was another analogue of a dead hand, in the form of an instant reaction to a nuclear strike against the USSR and its allies, who had appropriate military agreements, security ...

Show me such an agreement between the USSR and the DPRK
THERE WAS NOT. And you, Vladimir, are not even able to realize what nonsense you are talking about.
If the USSR and the DPRK had such an agreement, the USSR would have been forced to side with its ally, that is, the DPRK - well, or betray it. The USSR didn’t come forward, it’s a fact (whether the matter was limited to si chin, that is, unofficial support). That is, in your opinion, there is a betrayal of an ally, which (again, in your opinion) should have ended with all the allied countries turning away from the USSR. But instead, they signed the Warsaw Pact with the USSR AFTER the Korean War :))))))
In general, you are not like history, you are at odds with logic.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

go into yourself, mechanic

but where are you without a mechanic, even be a captain, and without a mechanic, a ship is not a ship but a barge, so respect

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

That is, it is possible to kill Soviet and Chinese soldiers with bullets, bombs and shells, this does not lead to the beginning of the Third World War,

the Americans, as it were, were absent there, like China and the USSR, it was supposedly inside the Korean conflict ... but a nuclear strike brings the confrontation out of the shadows and requires an answer, otherwise all the allies of the USSR will turn away from him as a weakling ... is this new to you? you don’t understand ... horror! sadly I look at your generation ..... young man

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

the Americans, as it were, were absent there, as were China and the USSR, it was supposedly inside the Korean conflict ...

Don't write nonsense, please. American troops were officially sent to the aid of South Korea, with the official permission of the UN. "As if" only our and Chinese troops were present there

Quote: vladimir1155

but a nuclear strike brings the confrontation out of the shadows and requires an answer, otherwise all the allies of the USSR will turn their backs on him as a weakling ...

This is baby talk. The USSR did not even become an official military ally of the DPRK, we did not officially fight South Korea. This was done by China, attacking the troops of both South Korea and the UN. And if the Americans used nuclear weapons, it would simply be broadcast as an American-Chinese mess on the territory of a third country.
And if you knew even a little about international politics, then you would have known that the USSR, having withdrawn itself, in fact, from direct military assistance to the DPRK, ALREADY showed weakness. And where are the allies falling away? :)))))

[Vladimir1155]

- Let me remind you that the Soviet Union was the first among the world states to recognize the People's Republic of China on October 2, 1949, the very next day after its formation. This is quite natural, given that the USSR provided serious assistance to China during the war with Japan and contributed a lot to the CPC's victories in the revolutionary struggle and the civil war. Soon after the establishment of diplomatic relations, the first ever Chinese ambassador abroad, Wang Jiaxiang, left for Russia, followed by Mao Zedong in December 1949 on his first foreign visit. He made a request to Joseph Stalin to provide large-scale assistance in building New China. Sino-Soviet relations needed a modern treaty base, which would serve as the basis for the development and strengthening of political, economic and humanitarian ties. This was the Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance concluded on February 14, 1950.

History has shown that that document determined the main directions of development of bilateral relations for at least a decade. Despite his difficult fate, he became a powerful factor in stabilizing the international situation, played a key role in the security and state building of New China, contributed to the economic formation of the People's Republic of China and, perhaps most importantly, brought the peoples of our countries closer together.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

Let me remind you that the Soviet Union was the first among the world states to recognize the People's Republic of China.

Vladimir, what was told to you?

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The USSR did not even become an official military ally of the DPRK, we did not officially fight South Korea.

What does China have to do with it ?! Or do you seriously think that the agreement with the PRC provided for the assistance of the USSR in the event that the PRC troops attack the UN troops outside the territory of China, as in fact happened?
Are you out of your mind or not already?

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

due to the fact that your favorite mosquito fleet

don't lie, you know very well that my favorite submarines, tu160, su57, YARS, SARMAT, cannot be humiliated

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

you do not lie

Such a pain:)))))))

[EvilLion]

You generally understand that by Fri. 3-4 is it elementary to bring any full-scale aggression? Otherwise, it turns out to be an absurd situation that if the Japanese want not just the Kuriles, but the entire Far East, then Russia will not seem to disappear from this. In general, everything that is beyond the Moscow Ring Road can be given away, and Moscow can be declared Russia. No need to engage in sophistry. No one will bomb for a company of soldiers that crossed the hill, it will simply be covered with "hail", and that's all, or incidents with aircraft shot down in the border areas, Pakistan shot them down in the Afghan border area, and the USSR shot down the airliners that violated the border, and on all the courts came out to the right. But it will not be possible to involve 100 thousand people with ships and planes and say that this does not threaten the existence of the country.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: EvilLion

You generally understand that by Fri. 3-4 is it elementary to bring any full-scale aggression?

he does not understand this, although he is still only 46, or already 46, "The first visit to Krutitsky. Muse! Let's sing
a valiant husband and his projectors. You can't quite stop looking at you
venerable old man! Tell us, tell the world how you contrived to live up to
sixty years of age, keep your mind intact
a six-year-old child? "http://www.world-art.ru/lyric/lyric.php?id=1189&public_page=11

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

You generally understand that by Fri. 3-4 is it elementary to bring any full-scale aggression?

I understand that it does not fail. You do not understand

Quote: EvilLion

Otherwise, it turns out to be an absurd situation that if the Japanese want not just the Kuriles, but the entire Far East, then Russia will not seem to disappear from this. In general, everything that is beyond the Moscow Ring Road can be given away, and Moscow can be declared Russia.

Now read the "Decree". You will be surprised, but the Russian Federation does not undertake a GUARANTEED response to nuclear weapons in the event of aggression "with the help of conventional weapons, when the existence of the state is threatened." She only RESERVES THE RIGHT (but not the obligation!) To do it.

Quote: EvilLion

No need to engage in sophistry.

We must learn the laws, and not fantasize on a given topic. Learn to perceive the world as it is, and not as you want it to be.

[EvilLion]

Once again, you physically cannot clearly articulate when Fri. 4 takes place and when not. This means that either it is not taken into account, or everything that resembles at least a little is brought under it. The defeat in the Russian-Japanese war of 1904-05, which practically did not affect the overwhelming part of the population of Russia, led to the first Russian revolution of 1905-07. Only then did they manage to screw up the country.

All that Russia takes upon itself is the rejection of nuclear aggression, or blackmail with such aggression.

RESERVES THE RIGHT (but not the obligation!)

Well, if the hypothetical Japanese squadron near the Kuril Islands, suddenly, within a day, drowned anti-ship missiles fired from the Su-35 of the 22nd and 23rd IAP, and the Japanese units on the islands, left without support, surrender, then probably no one will bomb Tokyo will not. How no one will bomb Ankara if the Turkish bases on the Black Sea coast are immediately destroyed by missile and air strikes, and the Turks will only have to surrender.

But most likely, this will not happen, and the war with conventional weapons will be difficult.

In the conditions when the population, who survived the total war, was taught for generations that the nuclear shield is a guarantee of the absence of a major war, the authorities simply have no choice.

However, by definition, a "nuclear power", from which something can be squeezed out by military force, is not a power.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

Once again, you physically cannot clearly articulate when Fri. 4 takes place and when not. This means that either it is not taken into account, or everything that resembles at least a little is brought under it.

In your universe, perhaps. In practice, this means that even if a full-scale attack by all NATO armies is carried out on the Russian Federation, which the Russian Armed Forces cannot resist, the President of the Russian Federation will not be OBLIGED to use nuclear weapons. Only the RIGHT (may apply, or may not apply).
So that you understand the difference. If this decree clearly stated that the Russian Federation undertakes to use nuclear weapons in the event of such aggression, then the president's refusal to use nuclear weapons in such a case makes him a violator of the law, and gives reason to remove him from office. In the current version, if US tanks are at the walls of Moscow, but V.V. Putin decides not to use nuclear weapons - there will be no legal basis for his displacement.

[EvilLion]

The rest of the world in the years of WWII bombarded each other with bombs only in this way. Do not teach us to the world. Full-scale aggression is not a secondary reason, one should not think that the Japanese can land on the Kuril Islands and say that we are "at war a little." Either we are at war or we are not at war.

The fact that in the case of the same Georgia, Russia only limited itself with a fist in the snout and did not finish off the defeated one, so this is Russia's choice from the position of the strong. But if they entered Tbilisi, and Mishiko was put on trial, then the world would not have any claims either, since it was not possible to scream for a long time about Russian aggression. Moreover, in the case of Japan, its territorial rights were established not even by us, but by the Americans, and no Kurils or South Sakhalin, which the Japanese themselves received exclusively by military means, after the break of the 1875 treaty, are not included in Japanese jurisdiction.

When they say in our country that our authorities have given something to the Chinese, then people do not really understand that with these agreements on an island in the center of the river, any possible territorial claims against us were leveled. And this is a very serious thing. And the same Chinese now cannot go to international courts and demand something. There they will simply be told, you yourself have concluded the border demarcation agreements, what do you want now? There are several territories in the world that are left without a master, simply because, within the framework of a territorial conflict, the parties want to get better territories and are not ready to fix borders.

Limited nuclear strikes against the military targets of the aggressor are perfectly legal and will not raise any questions. Rather, on the contrary, they will make you think whether it is necessary to quarrel with Russia.

If we say that no one is observing the treaty, then why should we at all somehow limit ourselves in brandishing a nuclear club. We have, but you do not => you are wrong.

In Russia, the non-use of nuclear weapons will inevitably lead to a serious popular revolt, since people are not at all going to send tens of thousands of men under bullets, a nuclear shield is an extremely expensive pleasure, and if it does not protect against a big war, then the question arises, why should he generally needed.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

Limited nuclear strikes against the military targets of the aggressor are perfectly legal and will not raise any questions.

Only in your imagination. In fact, they are illegal both from the point of view of international law (there is no direct ban on the use of nuclear weapons, but it does not correspond to the generally accepted forms of hostilities in many parameters), and from the point of view of our legislative documents - the current Fundamentals of State Policy of the Russian Federation in areas of nuclear deterrence ”(signed by the President) presuppose the use of nuclear weapons in the four cases I have listed above.
1) the receipt of reliable information about the launch of ballistic missiles that attack the territory of Russia or its allies;
2) the use by the enemy of nuclear weapons or other types of weapons of mass destruction against Russia or its allies;
3) the enemy's influence on critical state or military facilities of Russia, the disabling of which will lead to the disruption of the response actions of the nuclear forces;
4) aggression against Russia using conventional weapons, when the existence of the state is threatened.
So there will be questions, to put it mildly.

Quote: EvilLion

If we say that no one is observing the treaty, then why should we at all somehow limit ourselves in brandishing a nuclear club.

Don't limit it, bardzo is simpler. And get ready for a new Iron Curtain, much worse than in the days of the USSR. Only then did we build it ourselves in many respects, and now it will be erected around us.

[EvilLion]

There is no direct ban on the use of nuclear weapons, but in many parameters it does not correspond to the generally accepted forms of hostilities

That is, there is no prohibition, but it does not correspond to some mythical forms. Here, the legalized restrictions would be respected.

And get ready for a new Iron Curtain, much worse than in the days of the USSR. Only then did we build it ourselves in many respects, and now it will be erected around us.

Your historical ignorance is amazing. In fact, the USSR did not erect any iron curtain, on the contrary, in the 20-30s he willingly bought nishtyaks in the USA and trained his engineers, and, realizing his technological weakness, he was not going to give up this, which means he was ready to negotiate with the West ... The curtain was erected in the west, Churchill's Fulton speech, etc. => Until you prove that you can push in the face, they will not communicate with you, if you have not come out with a snout, especially in the Anglo-Saxo society, which is still estate, and for them their proletarians are not people, not like some natives. By the way, the Japanese, by the way, were also given a ride at the beginning of the 20th century, although they hoped that once they put on tailcoats and European hats with pince-nez, and moreover, they could pile on white Russians, which previously did not happen with Asians, they would be mistaken for their own. Break off. Well, the Japanese were offended, and all their savagery in WWII stems from this, they do not want to consider us civilized, well, okay, we will live according to our samurai concepts.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: EvilLion

That is, there is no prohibition, but it does not correspond to some mythical forms.

"Mythical" forms are the rules for waging war. Those who violated them were sometimes judged a little like that (see Nuremberg Trials).

Quote: EvilLion

Your historical ignorance is amazing. In fact, the USSR did not erect any iron curtain, on the contrary, in the 20-30s, he willingly bought nishtyaks from the USA

Let's remember tsarist Russia, yeah.
I wrote to you about the "iron curtain", which, so you know, has been taking place since 1946 (Churchill's Fulton speech). You don’t know basic things, but write to me about illiteracy.

Quote: EvilLion

and, realizing his technological weakness, he was not going to give up this, which means he was ready to negotiate with the West. The curtain was erected in the west, Churchill's Fulton speech, etc.

That is, this evil west did not allow us to listen to foreign radio and watch Hollywood films. It was the west that did not allow our tourists to go on vacation abroad. It was the West that introduced censorship on foreign literature in the USSR ...
The USSR, so you know, was ready to agree on a number of positions that were needed for its development, and nothing more. But for the rest, it was the USSR that diligently protected our citizens from contacts with the outside world, from the possibility of acquiring imported consumer goods, etc. That is why I wrote

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Only then did we build it ourselves in many respects, and now it will be erected around us.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

That is, this evil west did not allow us to listen to foreign radio and watch Hollywood films. It was the west that did not allow our tourists to go on vacation abroad. It was the West that introduced censorship on foreign literature in the USSR ...

and this is written by a "journalist", shame! misunderstanding of the essence of things in journalism, you Andrey disappoints me more and more! shame shame on you! .. don’t you realize that information is power and it was the unprofitable, false and funded by the owners of the FRS Hollywood that destroyed the USSR, carrying lies about the imaginary Western wealth and justice, it was through the enemy's voices on the radio and through your favorite Hollywood that the country's treachery was laid by its population, for lentil soup who gave the birthright, betrayed the memory of their fathers and grandfathers. ... do you even understand what the Cold War is, its methods and techniques? read W. Lippman young man. ..... Just as you like beautiful but deceitful Hollywood productions, you also like beautiful but meaningless aircraft carriers! this is the essence of your delusions and delusions of all stupid supporters of aircraft carriers and surface monsters, you do not look superficially at the root, but perceive everything with your emotions, which Lippman wrote about, but in his opinion, this is a sign of a crowd of stupid people who are in the majority, and as proof look at the forum, how many minuses to those who think and how many to those who write beautiful but stupid nonsense ... that's why you thought to belittle me as a mechanic, but you see yourself no less than an admiral, you are superficial, without mechanics and the admiral will turn into an infantryman. do not like the nuclear submarines, they are not visible! quietly doing their job, give you, though stupid, but prominent and beautiful ... AB or KR no less

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vladimir1155

don't you realize that information is power and it was the unprofitable deceitful and funded by the owners of the FRS Hollywood that destroyed the USSR by carrying lies about the imaginary Western wealth and justice, it was through the enemy voices on the radio and through your favorite Hollywood that the country's treachery was laid by its population

:)))))) Are you serious ?! :))) M-dya, everything is even worse than I thought.
To win the information war (or at least achieve some kind of parity in which we do not allow foreign propaganda to brainwash us), we must not prohibit it, but oppose it with our own centralized propaganda. But propaganda will be effective only when it is targeted at a group of people who have similar views on the structure of the state. Thus, official propaganda will be successful among a large part of the country's population if this population is united by some common views, common ideas about the state structure, about life goals, about the country in which they live. That is, a national idea.
Hollywood did not destroy the USSR. We destroyed it ourselves, having lost the national idea that once united the peoples of our country.
Such things, grandfather :)))

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

We destroyed it ourselves, having lost the national idea that once united the peoples of our country.

this is true, but to support this idea, it is necessary to submit information in our interests and crush the one that is not in our interests ... it's like in a war shots suppression of firing points, etc.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: EvilLion

Limited nuclear strikes against the military targets of the aggressor are perfectly legal and will not raise any questions. Rather, on the contrary, they will make you think whether it is necessary to quarrel with Russia.

If we say that no one is observing the treaty, then why should we at all somehow limit ourselves in brandishing a nuclear club. We have, but you do not => you are wrong.

In Russia, the non-use of nuclear weapons will inevitably lead to a serious popular revolt, since people are not at all going to send tens of thousands of men under bullets, a nuclear shield is an extremely expensive pleasure, and if it does not protect against a big war, then the question arises, why should he generally needed.

that's it! here it is! she will take her!

[Foxnova]

Subs that humiliate

[Sergej1972]

Well, the population of Japan is still less than ours by 20 million.

[Avior]

What was it? Article is a joke?
So it seems that until April 1, it is still far away. Or is it a warm-up?

That is, in fact, "Onyxes" and "Calibers" carry twice as many explosives to enemy ships. Let's leave the issue of speed and accuracy aside for now, since this is a separate conversation. As well as the neutralization of missiles by the enemy.

It is necessary to load a dry cargo ship with explosives and send it to sea on a combat mission. Let's leave the issues of speed, accuracy and neutralization by the enemy alone for now.

[Undecim]

What was it? Article is a joke?
And you still haven't figured it out? This article is a sketch, the most popular genre on the site today, whose task is to provoke turbulence and provide clickbait.
Almost all sections from "News" to "History" are filled with similar content.

[Zhenya Khazarsky]

I beg your pardon, but Nakhimov has no more Granites.

[3danimal]

They are outdated and few. No longer produced.
Equipping the UKSK for 80 missiles is the best solution.

[EvilLion]

Theoretically, yes, but the bulk of the ship does not differ in controllability, and inertia is the same in general, 25 tons is not a little.

The battleships are at a loss. Due to their size, they had everything, from a hospital to a very high specific gravity of the power plant.

The main problem of the Orlan is that it will simply leave for repairs, and this will end the fleet until it is repaired. And military equipment spends more time in repair than in service, therefore they order ships in triplets for rotation.

[Sancho_SP]

Build 1-2 - WE CAN. But this VAT 25% will be guaranteed.

Trying to respond symmetrically to the us navy will go broke. Other solutions are needed.

[3danimal]

Having ambitions for a fleet of comparable strength, it is not bad to first have a strong economy and bring the budget to ... the level of Japan ($ 1,5 trillion).

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

A strong economy is a stereotype imposed by the West.
Russians do not need these bourgeois values; spirituality can also fight the enemy.

[carstorm 11]

At the same time, consumer prices like Japan?)))

[3danimal]

No, the prices are the same as in the USA.
(There are quite a few reviews on YouTube from Russian émigrés from grocery chains, by the way).

[Sancho_SP]

Will not be enough. The United States is sitting on a separate continent; in addition to the fleet, we must also have a land component.

[3danimal]

With a budget of about half the US budget, these ambitions are easier to achieve than a budget 1/13 of the same.

[Sancho_SP]

The budget is the numbers. It would be more correct to speak about the share of the population employed in the military-industrial complex and labor productivity.

If we drive half of the country into defense enterprises and make them work for food, then in dollars it will be small numbers, and there will be a lot of tanks and submarines.

For example, the military budget of the DPRK, if you calculate it in dollars at the market rate, would be at the level of countries with an army two orders of magnitude smaller.

Yes, only the whole question is, are you personally ready to work for a minimum wage, but will our heels of full-fledged AUGs go to the oceans?

[3danimal]

Are you personally ready to work for a minimum wage, but will our heels of full-fledged AUGs walk the oceans?

Definitely not.
But another option is also possible - to increase the economy without lowering wages.

[Sancho_SP]

Are you going to rub your economy booster three times a day?) It's easy to say, but almost impossible to do.

"To expand the economy" is either to increase industrial production (produce more domestically and buy less), or provide various services (with varying degrees of compulsion for recipients) in foreign markets.

Industrial production, in turn, can be increased either through external technological investments (and this is incompatible with an authoritarian political regime), or through our own funds, as in the post-war USSR (and here again hello to work for food).

Well, we don't want to impose tribute on the colonies, we want to call them allies, arm and feed them. Well, good luck ..

[3danimal]

Dead end, however ..
But, I think, if (suddenly) someone was concerned about creating conditions for the development of the economy (or guarantees that your business will not be taken away, but will not be killed in a pre-trial detention center), tax holidays when opening a new business, reducing corruption costs, it would become better with finances
Although this is also not very compatible with the current regime ..

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Sancho_SP

Are you going to rub your economy booster three times a day?) It's easy to say, but almost impossible to do.

it is possible and not difficult, 1 stop feeding the usa 2 stop feeding the extortionist officials = disperse fire supervision, guardianship, Rospotrebnadzor, state construction supervision, Rostekhnadzor, land supervision, tax, gati, traffic police and other parasites extortionists cancel technical inspection and OSAGO, cancel insurance medicine 3) c As a result, to abolish all taxes except the tax (increased by two times) and excise taxes on alcohol and tobacco ... that is, to turn into a huge offshore company, then investments and technologies themselves will come, and even workers will come.

[3danimal]

If you drive half of the country into defense enterprises and make you work for food

And people will start to run, fence the country with barbed wire and shoot at the "fugitives", suggest?
Wrong train of thought.
I was talking about development.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: Sancho_SP

... in us besides fleet also you must have a land component.

..
In the post Soviet space, "ruling circles", successfully and sufficiently HAVE: and the fleet, and the land component, and the population of their countries in general !!!

[Artemion3]

Another thing is that Nakhimov is old, if not modernize, and 10 mrk are new

[3danimal]

Our shipyards cannot now build a rank 1 ship.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: 3danimal

Our shipyards cannot now build a rank 1 ship.

Well, yes ... well, yes ... And in Kerch shipbuilders BOTTK Peter-I laid in 2 copies!
Would you think before you put pressure on Claudia ...

[3danimal]

I'll clarify: we are talking about a rank 1 URO ship. Which .. are somewhat more complicated than UDC.
It all fits together now

[tralflot1832]

I saw Kirov when he first came to the Northern Fleet. Not a single bastard appeared in Barentsukh when he went beyond the line of Kolguyev Island and Rybachy Peninsula. Apart from Maryata, this is such disgusting, but if it was necessary the fishermen dealt with it.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: tralflot1832

Apart from Maryata, this is such disgusting, but if necessary, the fishermen dealt with it.

I don't know about the fishermen. But Tymoshenko and Isachenkov took the "lady" from both sides into close contact and, on command, thrashed at her with everything that could radiate from the RES ...
How many screams there were - you cannot convey ... Well, they sent a "musical notation" to our Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and they also complained to the League of Sexual Reforms ...
And how can we do without it ... You can't live without it !!! (from).
Yeah here ...

[KCA]

And so the article is decadent, but when the author called "Caliber" a new product, something did not work out in my head, does the author really not know that "Caliber" is nothing more than a "Granat", which is 40 years old, converted for new tasks. "Granata" was only TABCH, "Caliber" had a wider assortment

[Paphnutius the Unforgettable]

"Can fight off submarines? In theory, yes, but the bulk of the ship does not differ in controllability, and inertia is generally the same, 25 tons is not little. So a torpedo is the worst thing that can be imagined for a cruiser, and the best that can be applied enemy." He wrote this about "Admiral Nakhimov". Then it turns out, if you believe him, that American aircraft carriers are completely uncontrollable, and inertia generally makes them worthless pieces of iron !!!!! And it is easy to hit them with torpedoes, and even more so with a rocket!
These are the "military experts" now who write articles on naval topics! Arguments at the kindergarten level, an elephant is larger than a tiger, so he will defeat him! And the point!

[Niko]

Quote: Uncle Lee

It would be better if ten Buyans were built.

Novel for "Mosquito Fleet" .... So let's get down to rubber boats with one "Caliber".

And why spend money on the caliber? How did AK become bad?

[Niko]

Just kill me, well, I don't believe that he is serious

[Your stranger]

Azerbaijanis from the bayraktar got into the UAZ, why won't the Americans get into the boat?
By the way, why should the hornets come close, they will fire off missiles perfectly from 250 km,
And in the eagle there are only 12 fighters,
They will count how many missiles were fired at them and fly up to 100 km

[3danimal]

It's even simpler: Eagle sees within the radio horizon. Having reconnoitered its location and issued target designation, you can bring in pieces of 8 Hornets at low altitude - and hello ..
Modern aviation will always "disassemble" a lonely ship.

[lucul]

It's even simpler: Eagle sees within the radio horizon. Having reconnoitered its location and issued target designation, you can bring in pieces of 8 Hornets at low altitude - and hello ..
Modern aviation will always "disassemble" a lonely ship.

Read about Liana and Peony-NKS))))

[3danimal]

I read it. The most powerful group of four (!) RTR satellites, apparently capable of contemplating "as in the palm of your hand" the entire globe
In fact, the system has very limited functionality, hopes for it, as a panacea - against weakness and poverty (there are few modern AWACS, there are no deck AWACS and AVs themselves).

[lucul]

I read it. The most powerful group of four (!) RTR satellites, apparently capable of contemplating the entire globe "in full view" smile

5 passive reconnaissance satellites Lotos-S and 5 active reconnaissance satellites Pion-NKS cover the entire globe. It's all about the altitude of the orbit, and it is 900 km. Let me remind you that already at a height of 10 km above the ground, the radio horizon is as much as 400 km. And here not 10 km, but 900 km - there is a difference.

In fact, the system has very limited functionality, hopes for it, as a panacea - against weakness and poverty (there are few modern AWACS, there are no deck AWACS and AVs themselves).

In fact, Peony is the same breakthrough and advantage in technology as Zircon)))

[Bez 310]

Quote: lucul

In fact, Peony is the same breakthrough and technological advantage as Zircon.

Unfortunately, neither the Zircon nor the Pion is in service.
There is no need to talk about breakthroughs and advantages ...

[3danimal]

5 passive reconnaissance satellites Lotos-S and 5 active reconnaissance satellites Pion-NKS cover the entire globe. It's all about the altitude of the orbit, and it is 900 km

From a given orbit, what accuracy? Let me remind you again that these are RTR satellites.
They will not be able to issue target designation, they will only serve as a means of additional reconnaissance.

[iouris]

These questions are answered by military doctrine (or what replaces it). If a military conflict with the United States begins, the cruiser and the aircraft carrier are "light figures". They will have to be sacrificed to gain time and to protect the retaliatory strike potential. And the end in any case is known: "We will go to heaven, and they are vice versa."

[3danimal]

And to get to the "magic land", you must first die, is that correct?
But the use of nuclear weapons will not end there.
The war will continue with the remaining funds.

They will have to be sacrificed to gain time and to protect the retaliatory strike potential.

The United States has the advantage that its SSBNs are safe under the cover of the fleet. And we have a shortage of MAPLs to protect our "strategists". To keep them “at the berth” is to turn them into an easy group target for a disarming strike.

[north 2]

and in order for the Buyans to be able to carry out the tasks of protecting Russia's interests somewhere off the coast of South America, Russia must have naval bases in the states off the coast of South America. And if Russia has its own interests off the coast of Africa, and there Russia should have its naval bases. The same is true off the coast of North America and off the coast of which it is washed by the Indian Ocean. I repeat that Russia should have such naval bases there not because of nothing to do or out of boredom, but if Russia really has interests of geopolitical importance there.
Ten new "Buyans" instead of one old "Orlan", I suppose, off the coast of its base in South America will protect Russia's interests even more convincingly than one "Orlan". And if you take into account the fact that Buyany is modernized with each construction of a new ship and the latest Buyan project is much more modern than the first built not so long ago, it is obvious that the so-called partners of Russia would be infinitely happy if they were on their ships with a displacement of only 900 Tone could accommodate as many missiles as the Russian brawler can accommodate. Oh, he is now hosting 8 Calibers ...
Yes, Buyan's air defense is weak, so Buyan's bases off the coast of North America must be guarded by Russian S-400s. They will fully protect Buyany from the air at that distance in the water area where the interests of Russia will be protected by the MRC of the constantly improving Buyan project. Well, I do it, so, I guess ...

[DmSol]

You still consider seaworthiness. What the fuck South America

[north 2]

And what is the problem with the Buyans' seaworthiness? Drive them to a base off the coast of North America? So they were not transported by air or by rivers to the Mediterranean Sea to a base on the shores of Syria. And how did the Soviet RTOs get to the bases of the USSR Navy in Ethiopia, Cuba, Vietnam? And they served there beautifully ...

[DmSol]

served in addition to the main forces.

[3danimal]

And how did the Soviet RTOs get to the bases of the USSR Navy in Ethiopia, Cuba, Vietnam?

With difficulty, guessing the weather. And sometimes getting up for repairs after the transition.

[Kalmar]

Quote: north 2

Buyan base off the coast of North America

"Brawler" will not get trite to North America. At one time, even the transition from the World Cup to the Baltic in the mode "sideways-sideways along the coast" was very difficult for them. The lot of these boats: work in the coastal zone, they are not designed for more.

[3danimal]

And if Russia has its own interests off the coast of Africa, and there Russia should have its own naval bases

A good project on the topic "soon these Russians will go broke."

[DmSol]

I apologize for the offtopic. But I have only one association with the name of the ship "Admiral Nakhimov".

[Red Alert]

Why does the author not suggest spending money on 10 Buyans, and not on 4-5 frigates of the 2350 project? The motor boat is even cheaper than the MRK.

[Artemion3]

There is such an article that it is better than Nakhimov or 3 frigates 22350, IMHO, the best option

[Galleon]

I believe that for the combat stability of the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser, at least 3 frigates with a good air defense system and 1-2 nuclear submarines should be added to the order. One should never be released into the sea, just to the shooting range or to the delivery of the K-2 task. Under these conditions, this heavy cruiser is a formidable force. Alone, he, like any other, is a suicide bomber. If you answer the title of the article, then answer like this: we need both "Admiral Nakhimov" and 10 "Buyanov". And even better - 10 frigates - "admirals" for "Nakhimov". The rest of the answers are variants of compromises with equally low combat effectiveness.

[dgonni]

Right now Timokhin or Klimov will come and explain to the author on the fingers why he is wrong.
Starting with the concept of target designation and detection range depending on the height of the radar and the concept of external target designation. And ending with the fact that the MRK n when they could not and cannot fight off the aviation and anti-missile forces.

[Kalmar]

The article is entertaining in its own way, but the impression leaves an ambiguous: we compare the doubtful with the even more doubtful.

"Eagles" were not bad for their time, but very, very expensive, which is why the project was born simpler - 1164. The modernized "Nakhimov" looks very solid in terms of weapons, but the timing and cost of modernization has already gone beyond reason. As a result, he has every chance of becoming too heavy for the fleet.

In the other corner of the ring - "Buyans", ships that were built more in the interests of the landowners, and not the fleet. Symbolic air defense, indistinct seaworthiness, zero PLO - all this sharply limits the possibilities of using these ships in real conflicts. Here is perhaps what rockets to shoot at the barmaley.

As a result, perhaps, the truth is somewhere in between: both those and other ships are simply inexpedient? Not in the sense that they urgently need to be put on pins and needles, after all, the money has already been invested and must be "worked out". And the fact that efforts should be focused on something more suitable for the Russian Navy in its current state: corvettes and frigates. Plus the modernization of the surviving Soviet first ranks, which can be brought to a more or less modern level for reasonable money; with Shaposhnikov, for example, this transformation came out relatively well.

[ccsr]

Quote: Kalmar

"Eagles" were not bad for their time, but very, very expensive, which is why the project was born simpler - 1164. The modernized "Nakhimov" looks very solid in terms of weapons, but the timing and cost of modernization has already gone beyond reason. As a result, he has every chance of becoming too heavy for the fleet.

This is what will bury the modernization - when the naval fleet rolls out the cost of the modernization, and requires them to make a decision on what other projects this amount will appear, then the naval commanders frown their brows and give out - "Fuck it ..."
I think that everything will end with this.

[Kalmar]

Quote: ccsr

This is what will bury modernization

Well, in the case of "Nakhimov" there is still no way back: money and time have been spent, you need to get something at the exit. Moreover, in theory, there is very little to finish.

[ccsr]

Quote: Kalmar

Well, in the case of "Nakhimov" there is still no way back: money and time have been spent, you need to get something at the exit.

This is a question of several specially drawn up reports, when the new bosses will blame everything on the mistakes of their predecessors, and, referring to the state interests, will slowly cover up this case so that there are no jailings.
I remember well the story of the Ural, which is now in demand more than ever, but it was sent for decommissioning, although its modernization is much easier than that of warships. I think the fleet is now simply not interested in "Nakhimov", due to many problems that will surely arise during its operation. However, I may not understand something, then the experts will tell you how everything really is.

[Rome]

I am not a naval man, so sympathetic. Is this some kind of trolling? The meaning of the article: "we sit at home and do not rock the boat!"
Sailors, you have already decided on the over-the-horizon control center! and then when it comes to amersky AUG, then it can not be found, tk. any ship in the ocean is a needle in a haystack and finding an aircraft carrier is far from a trivial task, and our cruiser cannot be hidden because it is HUGE!
A question to the author: "why is our cruiser going ONE in the battle for the Kuril Islands! And an aircraft carrier with an escort?" from the article: "he may fight off the planes, but the escort will finish him off," and what prevents the cruiser from giving additional strength? He is FLAGMAN, and this title is given not because he is the healthiest, but because he can control the sea forces better than others!
What can "Buyans" against aviation? just hide and fight off the ammunition fired at them and that's it! Why not compare the capabilities of the radar? "Buyans" are capable of issuing control points for fighters? and the cruiser can, and its radar is guaranteed to be able to see E2 Hokkai, which will direct the F18 and missiles at it, and "Nakhimov" will be able to give out the control center where this bastard flies! Further MIG31 with R37 and no Hokkaya , what will F18 do after that? They will come to tear their butt off low heights and rise to find a cruiser, and then either the S300 air defense missile system or again issue the SU30 command control system, which will definitely cover it near the Kuriles! And the battle with the AUG will be conducted not only by Nakhimov but also by Tu22 and corvettes with Onyxes and frigates, God forbid, there will be nuclear submarines with Granites and Calibers, and powerful radars from Nakhimov will play an important role in controlling the battle without such ships "Buyans" are blind kittens, they are needed just to strengthen the ships like Nakhimov, and not instead of them!

[Kalmar]

Quote: Eroma

and what prevents the cruiser from giving additional forces?

At the current stage, there is a deficit of these very forces. We have almost no ships left in the ocean zone, so the scenario "Nakhimov against all", alas, is not so far from reality.

Quote: Eroma

What can "Buyans" against aviation?

Beg for mercy, mainly) Well, maybe drive away some not too persistent helicopter.

Quote: Eroma

Further MIG31 with R37 and no Hokkaya

It is difficult with this: it turns out that the cruiser will be tied to ground airfields on which these same MiG-31s ​​are deployed. And the Hawkeye will not wait until the 31st takes off and approaches the missile launch range.

Quote: Eroma

And the battle with the AUG will be conducted not only by Nakhimov but also by Tu22 and corvettes with Onyxes and frigates, God forbid, there will be nuclear submarines with Granites and Calibers

But this is the correct approach: AUG is a difficult goal, it must be brought down comprehensively. Scenarios in the spirit of "drowning the aircraft carrier with one cruiser, and unwinding the escort" are fairy tales.

[lucul]

But this is the correct approach: AUG is a difficult goal, it must be brought down comprehensively. Scenarios in the spirit of "drowning the aircraft carrier with one cruiser, and unwinding the escort" are fairy tales.

No longer )))

[ironic]

Fairy tales, moreover, for the evening.

[lucul]

Fairy tales, moreover, for the evening.

Specifically, on 15.03.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX - yes, these are still fairy tales, because Nakhimov is not yet there, but soon everything will change)))

[Rome]

[quote = Kalmar] [quote = Eroma] and what prevents the cruiser from giving additional forces? [/ quote]
At the current stage, there is a deficit of these very forces. We have almost no ships left in the ocean zone, so the scenario "Nakhimov against all", alas, is not so far from reality.

Such a fight, this is nonsense! As I understand the battle with the AUG, this is an Air-Sea battle, where there are key elements: missiles as a means of destruction, aircraft as a means of delivering missiles and AWACS as a means of over-the-horizon control center And if you do not have a means of counteracting every element of the enemy's battle, then is there any point in joining such a battle ?! Nakhimov has a short-range air defense system against missiles (he can fight off a certain amount), there is a long-range air defense system against aircraft trying to attack using a bot radar (they seem to have to enter the zone of destruction of the air defense system otherwise the cruiser will not see), but against AWACS Nakhimov has nothing to put up (except maybe some kind of electronic warfare and that's all), so he will simply be pissed off from behind the horizon, attacking outside the radius of the air defense! Therefore, without proper support, he will be forced to retreat.
But against, for example, a Japanese squadron, he can show his prowess! Japanese EVs need to go at least 300 km unnoticed in order to reach the range of their anti-ship missiles. Nakhimov, upon detecting the Japanese, simply by keeping his distance, will stupidly shoot them! The Japanese will be in the position of Nakhimov against the AUG.

[quote = Eroma] Further MIG31 with P37 and no Hokkai [/ quote]
It is difficult with this: it turns out that the cruiser will be tied to ground airfields on which these same MiG-31s ​​are deployed. And the Hawkeye will not wait until the 31st takes off and approaches the missile launch range.

The MiG31 can be refueled in the air, I think with the help of the IL78 it is possible to provide a flight on duty in the battle area for the duration of the battle, without MiGs the chances tend to zero. Aviation should be in battle, drive Hokkai, control the sea surface from missile-hazardous directions in order to detect approaching missiles, and, if the situation is successful, attack the F18 going at low altitude.

And one more thing, these are collective means of electronic warfare, are they only on Nakhimov? Or is there something in the air to interfere with the Hockey players?

[Kalmar]

Quote: Eroma

And if you do not have a means of counteracting every element of the enemy's battle, then is there any point in such a battle to enter?

In general, yes, that's right. But everything happens in life. Let's say the enemy turned out to be more cunning and found him, as they say, "in an open field with his pants down" - you will have to accept the battle as it is.

Quote: Eroma

Japanese EVs need to go at least 300 km unnoticed in order to reach the range of their anti-ship missiles. Nakhimov, upon detecting the Japanese, simply by keeping his distance, will stupidly shoot them!

Here everything is decided by intelligence, this is a fact. Unfortunately, we still have a lot to work on in this direction.

Quote: Eroma

The MiG31 has air refueling, I think with the help of the IL78 it is possible to provide a flight on duty in the battle area for the duration of the battle

The key point is to understand when this very fight will take place. Again, a lot depends on intelligence.

[Artemion3]

Nakhimov can fight for the Kuriles under the cover of coastal aviation, by the way, plus Lada and Warsaw women

[Kalmar]

Quote: Artemion3

Nakhimov can fight for the Kuriles under the cover of coastal aviation, by the way, plus Lada and Warsaw women

How to say. The Kurils are at a decent distance from our military airfields, so it will be difficult to adequately cover the Nakhimov with base aviation. There are exactly two Varshavyanoks at the Pacific Fleet (plus two are expected in 21-22), Ladas are not there at all (one is planned by 22).

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Artemion3

Fight for the Kuriles Nakhimov

will not work .. a ship constrained by its draft and does not have a port of basing at the Pacific Fleet, choose Magadan, Petropavlovsk .... it is far from smoking and there is no infrastructure. So the uselessness of 1144 in the Kuril Islands has been objectively proven, only on the Northern Fleet they can be based and perform the functions of 1155, plus self-defense, ... Or Kamchatka, when establishing the infrastructure of ship repair warehouses, the supply of which is not yet expected and is not expected.

[Artemion3]

So, we need an air base on the Kuril Islands))

[Basarev]

Yes, small ships are really needed and useful. But I would only like not all this menagerie, similar to the Soviet tank, but a single project, which will make it possible to save money even better.

[Artemion3]

This begs the idea of ​​a Russian Arlie Burke - 22350M

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Basarev

Yes, small ships are really needed and useful. But I would only like not all this menagerie, similar to the Soviet tank, but a single project, which will make it possible to save money even better.

I agree sadly, but all this menagerie turned out to be one-sided, after the collapse of the drmsd, and now it will no longer be pledged, but the very necessary IPC = Karakurt will begin, that is, the diversity will be further aggravated ... no matter how sad

[Narak-zempo]

90 billion rubles is a trifle.
Calculate how much money is spent on retirement.
You can order a couple of full-fledged AUGs per year on them, without too much straining.
It is necessary to continue the pension reform until the final resolution of the issue.
Then we will be able to really compete with the United States in the power of the fleet.

[Basarev]

Yes, actually funny.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Narak-zempo

It is necessary to continue the pension reform until the final resolution of the issue.

[Vladimir1155]

Quote: Narak-zempo

It is necessary to continue the pension reform until the final resolution of the issue.
Then we will be able to really compete with the United States in the power of the fleet.

appreciated your sad humor, you need it to reach the blind supporters of KUG and AUG for whom there is a limitless cloud budget of pink ponies stretchable according to their wishes

[Aleksandr1971]

Quote: antivirus

And the money, which we, as we know, never have enough, is really worth spending on something more useful and meaningful. On the real security guards. Buyanov, Karakurt, Cheetah.

-the question is not in "violent" "eagles" --And in the number of cattle and sheep in a combination (oddly enough) of factories for the production of cargo and passenger internal combustion engines + X? thousand km of 4-lane highways.
STARTING WITH NIK2 (END OF THE 19th CENTURY) - INDUSTRY Lagged behind and the FSE ENDED (the fleet has not yet been destroyed in Tsushima).
THE GREATNESS OF THE FLEET --------- IN THE QUALIFICATION AND NUMBER OF TOOL MECHANISTS and the diet of those locksmiths.
from the standpoint of a professional military to look at the cash cow, a native country, a crime like "want-want-give-give." does not give GDP and Shoigu. Roman is not the point.

It is a pity that you consider the "Buyans", "Karakurt" and "Cheetahs" to be the real guards of Russia's maritime security. But will they protect the maritime borders of Russia from the AUG and the NATO submarine? You yourself understand that they will not protect.

1) And although anti-ship missiles can certainly be put on a mosquito fleet, target designation for these anti-ship missiles will be ridiculous, and therefore anti-missile systems on mosquitoes against a serious enemy are useless. 2) Air defense and anti-aircraft defense on mosquitoes are such that they can be neglected.

These are the mosquitoes you want to protect the maritime borders of Russia. This is sabotage.

[Ryusei]

Reading your articles, you keep thinking, this is the bottom, but you do not calm down, always strive for new depths ... well done
But it is interesting, do you write to order, or deep in your heart?
As for the torpedoes, you clearly explained this, straightforwardly so, the truth is that you do not know a damn thing about military history, otherwise you would not have written such nonsense.
10 Buyanov is power, like that grocer, so what if Orlan will erase these pelvis even "without sweating", that Berk and AV, and even UDC will drown them, you think we will send 360 people to the bottom without giving them a chance, this is not your relatives are true, we don’t feel sorry for them, but we’ll save some money ... I don’t remember what they call those who are willing to deliberately send people to death in vain?
I would tell you, but too lazy to start a new account then because of the ban ...

[The Siberian barber]

Such fierce nonsense, I haven't read it for a long time))

[Evil 55]

And also on these such approximate grandmothers, you can build no less than four BOREEV .. and you will have a huge cocoa ..

[Artemion3]

What would be the best option

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Evil 55

And also on these such approximate grandmothers, you can build no less than four BOREEV .. and you will have a huge cocoa ..

Better a couple of MCSPLs and a brigade of the MPK and TSC. Because there are no problems with the "Boreas", but there are big problems with their exit from the base and ensuring security on the database.

[alstr]

Here the question has two questions with limited financial resources:
1. The priority of the assigned tasks (which is more important to protect the near zone or the projection of force in the far)
2. Physical capabilities of the industry

Depending on the answers to these questions, it will be the best solution.

And of course, as an alternative, you need to take not Buyan, but something more useful, which has a decent anti-aircraft defense, self-defense air defense and 4-8 cells for calibers (or it is possible, in principle, without them, but then the air defense should be more serious) ...

[Wilderness]

I will try to criticize the author in an amateurish way.
Upgrade cost. Modernization / renovation, there is an "Eldorado" for all sorts of muddy schemes. If you go through the estimate carefully, pressing the tail of especially cunning embezzlers, then the zero from the amount can be safely discarded. I don’t know about the Moremans, but on the ground it works.
Further. How many conventional rockets does it take to sink a missile boat? I think one is enough. Sentry / corvette - 1-2 pieces and rescue the crew, sink the ruin. What is 1-2 missiles for a cruiser? I don't think he'll even notice them. No, well, he will receive damage, something will fall off or burn, but it is difficult to drown him, because duplication / redundancy, shift watches, damage control and simply enormous dimensions. No wonder they say "Big ship - big torpedo". Often they write here about a kind of balanced fleet, but I think it is precisely such large ships as tenacious carriers of long-range, heavy missiles, accompanied by every little thing, that is the basis of a balanced fleet.
Now about why all this is generally needed. From the point of view of world imperialism, Russia is a very "inconvenient" country. Because of the potential. Yes, now we are selling everything and everyone, to the detriment of the population of the present and future. But there is a hypothetical possibility that everything will change. It doesn't matter under what flag, empire or union or what kind of caliphate. To eliminate the threat in the bud, it is best to split the country into a bunch of small, poor, angry bantustans. This can be done, I think, by direct intervention, having previously demoralized the enemy with a series of humiliating, local defeats. In the conditions of Russia's chronic "non-arrival" to the war (well, we are not attacking NATO countries) - only an invasion. There are two options. Overland via Europe or sea. With the first, everything is simple - ground forces + a belt of radioactive glass from sea to sea. But with the reflection of the sunset from the sea is more difficult. From the Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet it is clear, there are small seas, everything is shot from the coast. Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet is another matter. For fans of the use of "vigorous-loaf", I already wrote once, I will repeat once again - the bombing of the New York and Washingtonians does not affect the combat effectiveness of the landing force that has landed and occupied, for example, Primorye. And bombing your own cities under occupation is a bad idea. The only way out is to intercept the landing at the crossing by sea. Small ships will not be able to do this, because with each sunk boat, the combat effectiveness of the entire detachment will decrease. Only a squadron of large, tenacious ships, covered with small ones. Think of it as a military district (or army) pushed forward.
Unfortunately, the country will no longer be able to build such cruisers. This is probably why you need to take care of those that remain.

[Akela]

"The zero from the sum can be safely discarded. I don't know about the Moreman, but it works on the ground."
The way it is. No, - we urgently need to get Ivan Vasilyevich out for at least a year, he would not have to change his profession (the crowned monarch). He would sit quietly in his NP on the crest of the Kremlin wall and watch the execution: clumsy, and crank it up! Those wishing to enroll in the guardsmen would have to arrange a competition!

[mister-red]

By analogy, these missile boats are approximately like an armada of Soviet light tanks, which disappeared in the first year of the war. Someone doubts that it would have been better to have on June 22.06.1941, 10, instead of 26 thousand T-37s with a 3,5mm cannon and 37 thousand T-38(7,62) with 3mm machine guns!!! at least 34 thousand T-76s with a 1,5mm cannon, of which at the beginning of the war there were only XNUMX thousand and not all in the western districts.

[Victor Tsenin]

>It’s clear that we won’t be able to build anything like the Orlans today. No one and nowhere.
In the future on Zvezda?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Victor Tsenin

In the future on Zvezda?

For what? All 1144 were built in Leningrad at the Baltic Shipyard:

The plant is still alive today, and still builds ships with nuclear power plants (NPP, icebreakers).

[Victor Tsenin]

Hmm, then statements about impossibility are generally incomprehensible.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: Victor Tsenin

Hmm, then statements about impossibility are generally incomprehensible.

you are not attentive -

Quote: Alexey RA

icebreakers

now a priority in the Baltic !!! and on Zvezda there are Afromax tankers, for decades to come!!!
The ruling elite does not NEED cruisers or destroyers, from the word “at all”.... don’t push here in discussions...
а the choice has already been made for you for ten years forward: Icebreakers and tankers!!!.
But beautiful and patriotic “toasts”, to you and by February 23, and by May 9, - there will be!!! what are they rich in

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Vl Nemchinov

The ruling elite does not NEED cruisers or destroyers, from the word “at all”.... don’t push here in discussions...

And if Baltic Plant had not built ALED, then you would be indignant at the fact that the “ruling elite” do not need the Northern Sea Route and the North as a whole.
Baltic Plant is building ALED because the old ones are dying out in their last years. The legacy of the USSR is not eternal - out of 6 "Arktik" only two remain operational, and they were launched 25-30 years ago.

Quote: Vl Nemchinov

and the choice has already been made for you ten years in advance: Icebreakers and tankers!!!.

Hehehehe... the ambush for the elite is that the presence of a merchant fleet entails the need to create a military fleet. For international law has now slipped into the eighteenth century with “armed neutrality” and military force as a guarantee of the implementation of signed treaties.

[Victor Tsenin]

For international law has now slipped into the eighteenth century with “armed neutrality” and military force as a guarantee of the implementation of signed treaties.

Yes, it has always been so, is and, it seems, will be, there is nothing new under the sun.

[Dmitry Wolf]

Well, even if they want to, they won’t go to the Northern Sea Route - they don’t have ice ships.

[Xnumx vis]

You may not be a “poet,” but you must be a citizen. The article is provocative!

[Warrior MorePhoto]

It is better to compare one Orlan or 3 22350 of the latest modification with an increased number of zircons (calibers)

[ANB]

. It would be better if they built ten Buyans.
Better yet, 100 rubber boats. How is it in Ukraine?
And they are not visible on locators at all.
:)

[Akela]

The government procurement portal announced a contract with 30 shipyards for the disposal of the cruiser TAKR "Admiral Lazarev". Cutting the ship into metal will take 5 years and will cost 5 billion rubles. - Yes, put it at the pier - in a week without a trace they will take away!
The ship entered service with the Pacific Fleet on October 31, 1984.
On April 22, 1992, the Frunze TARK was renamed to Admiral Lazarev. In the 1990s, the ship was not capable of combat, as a result of which it was mothballed and withdrawn from the fleet, leaving it in storage in the Abrek Bay. 8 years older than Petr Great ", but only 8 years was in the ranks, having made one transition, the rest of the time - on conservation. New ship, from conservation.
And only 5 years older than Nakhimov, who, for some reason, is profitable to modernize, but Lazarev is not. In 2004, the ship was delivered to the Zvezda ship repair center in the city of Bolshoy Kamen, where nuclear power plants were unloaded and the period of stay was extended in a mothballed state In 2005, the ship returned to the slop in Strelok Bay.
Moscow (missile cruiser) was commissioned on December 13, 1982, 2 years older than Lazarev.
Due to the impossibility of reloading the reactor core in the Zvezda CS, it was intended for disposal. This is indirectly confirmed by the plans to transfer the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" to the Pacific Fleet after the completion of its repair. However, according to press reports that appeared in 2011, the modernization of the cruiser was still planned.
The speed is 17 knots on boilers, on fuel oil 1000 miles (with a minimum refueling) on ​​standby boilers KVG-2 at 17 knots. It will go under its own power on fuel oil, on boilers to Seerodvinsk, Sevmash, where it will dock in place of "Nakhimov", which was moved to the outfitting embankment. There is also a place nearby for "Kirov". Actually, after de-mothballing - a fully combat-ready ship, you don't need to upgrade much.
Ship from conservation. The USA does not have missiles like Granit, S-300 even now.
Install on it Installations "Sunstroke", "Fog", hypersonic missiles "Zircon", Tesla Sphere, providing protection against a nuclear strike. In the United States, we managed to move the destroyer Eldridge in space, and we also did such work. Put on it all that is good and that which is not. If it turns out to make an interstellar ship out of it, it's great, but no, let them think what happened.
It was necessary to carry out the modernization of Lazarev, which had already been worked out at Nakhimov. It would make up the core of the surface strike forces of the Pacific Fleet (Pacific Fleet), having a long arm in air defense, strike capabilities, and the necessary communication systems for controlling the forces of the fleet and coordinating with the overlying headquarters.

The Yak-141 will not be restored for a long time for these aircraft-carrying ships, and the DLRO aircraft are already ready (long-range radar detection).
Honored military pilot, deputy editor-in-chief of Aviapanorama magazine, Vladimir Popov, said that the most promising is the restoration of developments under the Yak-141 program and their full use, taking into account the fact that recently new materials and technologies have appeared. a modern adaptation of the platform could deploy the deadly new K-77 air-to-air missiles, based on the R-77, but widely modified for deployment by next-generation fighters and retaining an unprecedented strike range of 193 km and a high degree of accuracy.
With significant demand for low-cost aircraft capable of operating from light aircraft carriers, such countries as China, Thailand and South Korea - potential clients that exhibit such warships - the Yak-141 could potentially become a major export success for Russian military aviation in the future.
And then there is the TARK "Admiral Ushakov" - the former "Kirov". The condition is satisfactory, it has been mothballed since 1992, it was delivered due to a steam leak, there was no radiation. The only problem is money.
The American "Nunn-Lugar Program" for the dismantling of submarines and ships is operational - $ 2008 billion apiece. Well, in your pocket. This is how the Akula TK-13 submarine was cut in XNUMX. - COMBAT. NOT UNDER YELTSIN.

On the federal service of open letters, my letter to the President - "Rational proposal", about the need to preserve these ships - TARK project 1144, and the world's largest submarines - Akul, Severstal and Arkhangelsk. And all the skirmish with the trolls, who need Russia in bast shoes, or better, without them. The answer is business.
They cannot build (ships) of the 1st rank, but they are happy to let them into metal.
No money left? Why did the Central Bank just invested a billion in US government bonds? Just the cost of modernizing "Lazarev" and "Kirov". No rollbacks. The "elite" exported almost 300 tons of gold to their beloved island in a year. They do not want the island to be threatened by the ARMY and the Russian Navy, they need it without teeth.
Statements that - it is expensive, with this money you can build 10 small ships - from Uncle SAM, one hundred bicycles will not replace one tank. Well, don't build something! -Correct - no capacity. So let's get down to rubber boats with one "Caliber". And here you do not need to build anything, and the cost of modernization is the cost of new weapons that will not fit on the boats. And which is better - a bite of 100 mosquitoes, or one hornet? Or maybe a wolf? Yes, these mosquitoes are on
it will shake the wave so much that they will not be able to aim. They need 10 communication systems, navigation, locators, instead of one, but powerful. But Project 1144 TARK is an aircraft-carrying cruiser! The Yak-141 aircraft was created for it! Does Russia have a lot of aircraft carriers? Atomic! With unlimited range!
Last week, Norway became the site of a virtual battle between Russia and NATO over the Arctic, writes Forbes. Off the west coast of the country, a Canadian frigate, Norwegian missile boats and an American F-35 fighter jet were trained to shoot down anti-ship missiles. On the east side, the Russian missile cruiser Marshal Ustinov was training to sink enemy submarines, hiding in the border Varanger Fjord. The confrontation is heating up, it will not be possible to hide.
Chinese analysts at Sohu talked about how the decision of the Russian Ministry of Defense to commission the cruiser Moskva not only came as a complete surprise to NATO forces, but also caused a nervous reaction in its leadership. - you can imagine how NATO will be "delighted" with the commissioning of "Admiral Lazarev", "Kirov". It will be even easier (and cheaper) for Sevmash to simultaneously upgrade two ships according to the same project (the planned "Peter the Great"), or "Kirov" and "Admiral Lazarev") - this also applies to the order of materials and contractor supplies, a huge tower 128-meter crane " Vityaz ", specially built, will serve both ships, being between them. And there is enough space in the dock for another 10 such ships, or submarines. When working in 3 shifts, the upgrade will take a year.

1 more on the topic of optimizers:
The Vladimir Tractor Plant has been dead for two years.
In the summer of 2018, the plant was finally liquidated, now it is urgently demolished so that even the idea of ​​resuming production does not arise. The construction of the plant began in 1943.
Hitler is probably happy in the next world.
Let me remind you once again that the plant was liquidated, and the last 300 workers were thrown into the street in July 2018. This is for those who say that Yeltsin and Gorbachev are to blame for everything.
Maybe we should invite Lukashenka to the kingdom? ”“ Like Rurik, all his factories are working, and every centimeter of land is sown. This is without minerals, and unification with Belarus will take place right away.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Akela

The United States does not have missiles similar to the Granit S-300 even now.

Missiles similar to "Granit", neither does the Russian Federation.
And as for the S-300... for the USN, the air defense system is the last line of defense, a means of finishing off anything that has broken through the 300-mile “fighter” air defense zone. However, for their “Standards” the Yankees have already solved the main problem of the air defense system - shooting beyond the radio horizon.

Quote: Akela

Maybe we should invite Lukashenko to reign? - Like Rurik - all his factories are working, and every centimeter of land is sown.

You can invite me. The question is, who will give him non-performing loans for Russia? We know the source of the “Belarusian economic miracle”.

[Akela]

“The Russian Federation does not have missiles like Granit either.” - Yes. "Granites" are still Soviet. There are plenty of them in stock, they were released like sausage from the conveyor. But there is even better - "Zircons". Do you know the source of the "Belarusian economic miracle"? - Maybe share? You look, such knowledge will come in handy for Russia. There is gas, oil, everything is there, even money is there, but there is no miracle! Please teach us where the dog rummaged!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Akela

“The Russian Federation does not have missiles similar to Granit.” - Yes. "Granites" are still Soviet. There are plenty of them in stock, they were released like sausage from an assembly line.

If the USSR had produced all its missiles like sausage from an assembly line, it would have collapsed by 70.

Quote: Akela

Do you know the source of the "Belarusian economic miracle"? - Maybe you can share?

After the famous interview with the Russian Ambassador to the Republic of Belarus, everyone knows this source.

... from 2000 to 2010, the level of annual financial support to Belarus or the shortfall in Russian income in our economic relations ranged from hundreds of millions of dollars to 2-3 billion, and now it is already 5-6 billion a year.

Someone really does not want to admit completely obvious facts. And the numbers. And they are as follows: out of 5,13 billion dollars of Belarusian agricultural products export, which our friends are so proud of, 4,1 billion falls on the Russian Federation, that is 80%. In milk, of the total exports of Belarus in 2018, this is 85%, butter - 72%, cheese and cottage cheese - 84%.

Two sources and two components of the “Belarusian economic miracle” - direct and indirect subsidies from the Russian Federation + a guaranteed sales market for products produced in Belarus or re-exported through Belarus (like the same apples, the export of which from Belarus exceeded production).

[Akela]

"If the USSR were releasing all the rockets like sausage off the assembly line, it would have bent down to the 70th year." - How do you know? Can you justify? Russia still hasn't bent; it produces RD-180 rocket engines on the conveyor and sells them to the USA! The conveyor is the most cost-effective form of industrial production, so you know.
An ambassador, a diplomat should not utter such nonsense. Nobody gives subsidies so easily, Belarus feeds all of Russia, and not vice versa. And defends the western borders. So, your arithmetic is twofold. What prevents Russia from filling Belarus with milk and tractors? Only that the production was killed, and Lukashenka also built! For each plant killed, the "elite" received kickbacks from the West. Under the conditions of political blockade and pressure, attempts to assassinate the Old Man, he did not bomb the factories, but again started those closed by Shushkevich. I DO NOT understand Belarusians who are against Lukashenka! Well, if you don't like it - go to Kazakhstan, live, rejoice! Or to the EU country - Moldova! Russia, Ukraine! But nobody wants to! Daddy created paradise for them, but everything needs to be destroyed. So that whoever was nobody becomes everything. Oh, yes, you have to work! And how you just want to relax!

[Bashkirkhan]

Quote: Akela

Install on it the “Sunstroke”, “Fog” installations, hypersonic missiles “Zircon”, Tesla Sphere, which provides protection against a nuclear strike. In the United States, they managed to move the destroyer Eldridge in space, and we also carried out similar work.

Add more nuclear torpedoes to the cruiser

[Akela]

It is possible to add atomic torpedoes, even thermonuclear torpedoes, such as "Poseidon". Do you have any other suggestions?

[bk0010]

And only 5 years older than Nakhimov, who for some reason is profitable to modernize, but Lazarev is not.

They seem to have done something with the reactor there, after which they try not to climb too much into the ship.

[Akela]

There was a steam leak, there was no radiation. There's just something to do, replace the gasket, between the steering wheel and the seat.

[Pavel57]

Quote: ANB

. It would be better if they built ten Buyans.

It's cheaper to not have a fleet at all.

[bk316]

Roman, everything sounds reasonable, but the question is seaworthiness. The brawlers don't have it. What's the use of 10 small missile ships if they can't go to sea? Fly to Kamchatka, book a jeep excursion to the “three brothers” in a light breeze. Walk a little further and go out to Tikhoy - you will immediately understand everything: here, at a minimum, a frigate is needed. By the way, zircons will stand on it and PLO is no good.

[Connor MacLeod]

It is impossible to abandon cruisers, because it is necessary to show off at parades. It would be nice, of course, to build an RTO with all the money and get kickbacks from private shipbuilders, but it’s impossible - the commander-in-chief will scold. In our country, the first thing is show-off, and then theft. Well, according to the residual principle, the money goes to frigates and corvettes.

Generally speaking, the ideal option is for our Navy to have only cruisers and small missiles. Corvettes and frigates are really an eyesore. You start to suffer, you can’t find a place for yourself, imagining how cool it would be to have dozens of the latest corvettes and frigates in the Navy, because for this there is money and production capacity... No! We need to get all this nonsense out of our heads! There should only be strictly cruisers and MRKs! And then you can sleep peacefully!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Connor Macleod

Generally speaking, the ideal option is for our Navy to have only cruisers and small missiles.

RTOs are better - more coastal structures can be created for them. Divisions, brigades, flotillas - commanders, headquarters, rear. In general, a formidable coastal fleet.

[Connor MacLeod]

Plus kickbacks! Kickbacks!!!

[xomaNN]

Colleagues, well, for another 10 years in the design bureaus and shipyards of the Russian Federation it is unlikely that they will be able to develop a real project and build a high-pressure ship with a capacity of even 10-15 tons. What about Project 1144 as a missile platform? It seems like there will be power. Is this the asking price?
What does RK Lazarev look like today? Maybe at least as a donor of spare parts for 2 brothers after disassembly? It's a pity for the body

[Old26]

Quote: lucul

Peonies are needed 12. Minimum 6.

As far as I remember, 5 peonies are needed

No one knows how many "Peonies" will be needed. THREE deployment options are known "Liana" systems (according to open sources)
The first option - 2 satellites of the "Lotos-S" type and 1 satellite of the "Pion-NKS" type
The second option is 4 satellites of the Lotos-S type and 1 satellite of the Pion-NKS type.
The third option is 2 satellites of the Lotos-S type and 2 satellites of the Pion-NKS type.
Taking into account open data on the operating time of satellites (Lotos-S - 5 years, Pion - 4 years) at the beginning of 2022, we will be able to have, at best, ONE capable system "LIANA". How many systems are needed to completely close the whole space is unknown. Maybe 5 systems, maybe 10 - unknown.

Quote: lucul

He will fly in an orbit of 900 km, in this case he will have a huge radio horizon.

Lotos-s will fly at an altitude of 900 km (orbital inclination - 67°). "Pion" will fly at the same orbital inclination at an altitude of 500 km.
In addition, the orbital altitude is not equal to the satellite's swath. Flying it at an altitude of 500 km (or 900, as you wrote) does not mean that it will have a swath of several thousand kilometers wide. Most likely much, much less
The same American “Keyhole”, at a flight altitude of 600-900 km, had a swath width of 400 km, and their radar satellite, with approximately the same orbit, had a swath width of approximately 1000 km

Quote: lucul

Zircons 2.0 promise to double the range,

Let at least Zircon 1.0 enter service. Otherwise you’re already dreaming about version 2.0

[Irbiz123]

You can throw sand at the window as much as you like - it will survive, or throw one pebble - the window is broken, the same with the main calibers of MRKs and cruisers.

[Valter1364]

I don't agree! The reality is that if Russia claims to be one of the world's centers of power, then it will have to rebuild its fleet. And the fleet is real.

[Vladimir1155]

the stupid, senseless crowd is not able to understand the arithmetic that is obvious to all sensible specialists, even in the example of the respected Roman Skomorokhov, who chose the rather modest Buyan M... and it is obvious that 10 Buyans are more effective than one, albeit powerful, ship... And if you take the Cheetah? or 20380? After all, they can also be made for this money, not 10 but 5, and the effectiveness of the PLO will increase five times! It has been clear for a long time that large ships are outdated, and only very stupid people can deny this obvious fact.

[Akela]

One hundred bicycles will not replace one tank. Well, don't build something! -Correct - no capacity. So let's get down to rubber boats with one "Caliber". And here you don't need to build anything, and the cost of modernization is the cost of new weapons that will not fit on the boats. And which is better - a bite of 100 mosquitoes, or one hornet? Or maybe a wolf? Yes, these mosquitoes are on
it will shake the wave so much that they will not be able to aim. They need 10 communication systems, navigation, locators, instead of one, but powerful. But Project 1144 TARK is an aircraft-carrying cruiser! The Yak-141 aircraft was created for it! Does Russia have a lot of aircraft carriers? Atomic! With unlimited range!

[Peaceful SEO]

The whole article consists of manipulations and attractions. No offense, author, this is not your topic

[Aleksandr1971]

Quote: vladimir1155

Quote: Alexander1971

Don't you think that Russia has no interests in the distant seas? That Russia should not perform gendarme functions against any small enemy states and groups?

4) Do you think that it is so difficult and expensive for Russia to create KUG support ships?

you read for yourself what you wrote ... why shed your blood somewhere in the world where American capital still rules? if it is so easy to build a KUG, then take it and build it, and we will look at you Alexander ... or is your guts too weak? ... that's the same

insult.

[Redsun]

I don’t agree with the comparison with MRK. They are almost nothing in themselves. No matter how small they are, something will fly into them, but there is no air defense as such. They don't need much. These are ships for the Baltic, Caspian, and Black Sea. But a nuclear cruiser is not sent there. A comparison with 22350 would be more appropriate. However, at least one flagship in the northern fleet will definitely not interfere. And you can already get a warrant for it even from a new building

[av58]

Oh, Skomorokhov has now also become an expert in naval weapons? I haven't read his works for a long time. I thought that he had already been taken to the circus as a carpet artist, to make the “most respectable audience” laugh, but he is still here entertaining people

[Tektor]

Without options, one 1144.2M cruiser is much more valuable than 30+ Buyans with Karakurts. Because only Orlan can create a closed access and maneuver zone with a radius of 400 plus km. No one will be able to penetrate it with impunity under the influence of EGSONPO.

[Rlptrt]

Yes, sir, Roman. You should write novels. Non-sci-fi.
The fact is that naval science has long proven that the mosquito fleet is not combat-resistant without a large fleet. He can fight in certain tasks, but he cannot win the war! First of all, due to its small size, it is impossible to place the required weapons on it. The cheap Buyans you love so much have neither anti-aircraft defense nor air defense. And the larger ships, which our military industry gives birth to with great labor and pain, also have these problems. But at least there are ersatz anti-aircraft defense and air defense systems that are almost unusable. And the Buyans are doomed to be shot in the event of war.
I don’t know what it is about the interests of the oligarchy on the other side of the Earth, but the fleet has a more important task: to save Russia from destruction. Which will come from under the water. And for this we need FOSS systems, anti-submarine missiles, reconnaissance and anti-submarine aircraft.
Stealth and miniaturization are, of course, wonderful things. But we need weapons, not their visibility on useless boats. Better build yachts for the oligarchs. At least you can make money from them. If you can.

[certero]

Until the concept of using Russian photos is clear, nothing is clear about what kind of ships are needed

[petrol cutter]

The author's opinion is generally close to me personally.
True, it is not entirely clear why the link is specifically to “Buyan”.
Perhaps just for clarity.
Since “Buyan” is far from the best that our designers have invented to date. And there is plenty to choose from.
In any case, one proponent of the doctrine is worse than several.

[siemens7774]

Admiral Nakhimov is a representative ship. And the MRK is consumer goods

[3danimal]

Exchange Nakhimov's repairs for frigates 21350 and corvettes 20385 - please. But NOT at the helpless kamikaze carriers of the UKSK, which are the Buyans.
And someone should give them target designation for the approaching AUG, which will go as unpredictably as possible, using radio camouflage and creating false ship orders.

[skipper83]

Tell me, why does a nuclear-powered ship need a bunkering tank? And how does this bunkering ship differ from a retinue tanker?

[andrew42]

I reviewed this article for the 3rd time. 1 unit "Nakhimov" or 10 units. "Brawler" - ? Yes, neither one nor the other. 4 units of “Leader” (which was shoved under the carpet) is what is needed.

[Petroff]

Author. You said three things at the very beginning.
1 Waterfall
2 two months and the possibility of a long hike
3 three-level insurmountable air defense system.
This is where it should have ended.
He himself said that the mosquito fleet can only cover its shores, it does not have powerful air defense and the same Waterfall. That is, it absolutely cannot replace Orlans, no matter how many.
All calculations are in vain.

[Vadmir]

Which is more useful, "Admiral Nakhimov" or ten "Buyans"?

And how many oared galleys can be built with the same money is beyond counting - a whole armada. How many MS-1 tanks can be made instead of one T-90M, not to mention the Armata? How many I-16 fighters can be made instead of one Su-57?
This kind of arithmetic is breathtaking.

[Fisherman]

Big old mastodons - to intimidate or internally support the authorities of countries of their level (Africa, Middle East, part of Asia, Latin America), for the “petty kids”, where show-offs and punches are needed to get what we need. Small, new, effective ones - to counteract the “grown guys” who cannot be driven by show-offs beyond Mozhai, but an inconspicuous, sharp, but strong and effective blow is needed so that the brains fall into place. So the answer is: “You need both”! Money is not a problem; capacity and competence cannot be increased so quickly in shipbuilding.

[AC130 Gunship]

Not long ago there was a big scandal in the Navy. "Kuznetsov" had been moored at the pier for several years at that time. So: all these years they continued to blame him for the diesel fuel, as if he were going at full speed across the sea... They put someone there. The consequence was... What I mean is that, as long as there is no contract with a fixed price (which performers really don’t like), it is useless to guess and compare. The author has set kickbacks of 10-20%. Yes, in Russia it has been 100% for the last 10-15 years - this is not news. It's all sad...

[shonsu]

Just a couple of boring paragraphs and you can guess the author. Well, there’s no point in reading further - the polymers are all gone.

[Denton]

Author, it is clear that you are not an expert, but to be honest, even with logic there are problems here.

Stealth. In terms of ships, the concept is, well, yes, there is a Zumvolt, but in the amount of three, after which that’s it, then the Arly Burkes, which are not stealth in any place. Probably the Americans guessed something))). For general development, read what is generally meant by the concept of stealth, as well as about EPR. There is no need to read about the operation of radars and, most importantly, signal processing, there is too much language.
And now a little logic. Detecting an enemy ship with the help of your ship is a so-so idea for the simple reason that there is such a vile thing as the radio horizon. Hence the conclusion that it is better to search for enemy ships from the air (UAVs, helicopters, and the best part, AWACS aircraft). From the Hawkeye, the boat can be seen about 500 kilometers away (hello radio horizon). And taking into account the latest advances in the field of radar, well, these are the same ones that allow you to see a fighter (3m2, you’ve already read about ESR?) at a distance of 400 km, with the help of a fighter’s radar they seem to hint that stealth on ships will not work. So Nakhimov doesn’t care if they see him, he’s not hiding. But electronic warfare systems, its own radars with air defense systems, are what will allow the cruiser to withstand the first strike, and possibly prevent it, simply by shooting down an AWACS aircraft and receiving target designation (its own systems, interaction with aviation and submarines, satellites, etc.) d.) strike. The advantage of a missile cruiser (although it would be more correct to call it a battleship, or even more correctly a battleship, to accurately reflect what it can do) is that it can launch missiles in a fairly short time. Unlike the AUG, which takes 20 minutes to lift an air group under ideal conditions
But the MRKs from the Hornets will sink and, by and large, it doesn’t matter how many there are, they will kill everyone.

[ROSS_51]

What are all the discussions about? Our surface fleet is so small and old that the Americans do not perceive it at all...

[ilpine]

Large ships have large admiral's cabins and are a good place to travel while displaying the country's flag. On small ones, the admiral will not be able to arrive comfortably even to his neighbors.

[Dmitry Wolf]

Prestige or show-off? A monster capable of single-handedly turning any fleet into radioactive dust or a bunch of guards with reed guns that will be sunk by one Harpoon?
You have already scared yourself with your endless cries about the terrible and unpredictable Russians. And if this miracle forces the AUG to stay away from our shores, then it will justify itself - 1 to the north of the Atlantic, 1 to the north of the Pacific. I don’t think anyone will check it in practice.
Otherwise, you will have to meet the enemy on the threshold of your home - like in 41.

[Akela]

That's it ! As Napoleon said - "Who does not want to feed his army - will feed ALIEN"! Now every barrel counts! And the population needs to issue weapons from warehouses, with cartridges. Have some fun over the weekend with a beer! Setting fire to dry grass from a machine gun on a wasteland is so beautiful! And then go to sleep with a bottle of vodka and hugging a bear on a personal nuclear reactor! Yes, the West will think a hundred times before starting a war. And whoever gets killed by their own people is right, so the genes of stupidity, natural selection, die off! My father told me that the vintari hung on the walls and checkers. And they were goldfinches along the streets with these weapons, dragged through the dust, played war games. And nothing - everyone is alive! They grew up as men, not lbgt, as warriors, and fought!

[DedNaVolge]

You can continue the thought. If you install a Bassoon or a recoilless rifle on a Gazelle, and cover the sides with BSLs, it will turn out to be very budget-friendly. Instead of one tank, there are twenty little ones, and we can build them ourselves.

[Tambov-there is god]

Ten Buyans will repel 10 torpedoes. With oars.

[DBB4247]

Which is better, mother-in-law or mother-in-law? What is healthier: onions or apples? What do you need more: a car or a tractor? These are, to put it mildly, incorrect questions. But this is only one thing.
And secondly, and most importantly, to sit down in advance only on the defensive and not be able to simply go on the offensive is a failed idea in advance.
And third: study history! This attitude towards the Northern Fleet resulted in a lot of bloodshed and the inability of the Northern Fleet to protect its communications and convoys. The German fleet wandered around in the Arctic wherever it could and wanted

[Devil13]

Roman, you’re talking about Nakhimov, but he’s comparing him to Peter, who was designed when? Maybe then we can compare it with the MRC of that year?
So. Nakhimov means 80 missiles, 150+ missiles of the Poliment-Redut complex in addition to the S-300F or S-400, a new radar, and so on, so on.
Let's compare it with him, will the message be clear to you?

And now another minute of information:
Mrk Buyan-m is just fodder for airplanes and so on. They do not have anti-aircraft defense or anti-aircraft defense. At all. These are missile gunboats that will not even see the target; moreover, they will fire with subsonic calibers. Which are good, but not supersonic or hyper.

And then, imagine, in the modern world, the size of the ship and its energy are very important. This is the basis of the huge complex that is the ship. You can, of course, stupidly count missiles, but that’s stupid.
Energy is agility. This is a range, and for a nuclear cruiser - even at full speed and around the entire globe. This means the speed of deployment, availability of any region, etc.
Energy is the provision of systems, primarily radars, detection systems and weapon systems. Powerful radars with AFAR, based on gallium nitride elements (for reference, such technologies have not yet been dreamed of) consume a lot of energy, even the power units of destroyers are not guaranteed to have enough for them.
But normal radars, more powerful ones, are air defense, about missile strikes.
And this is also a more powerful (more space, more electricity) GAS, GAS.
A large ship also means conditions for the crew and living conditions.
A large ship is also conditionally unsinkable, and taking into account its air defense “auras”, no one else has anything like it, and it is the most durable.
He can fight off a missile attack, but what will a brawler do? From a shell, or one AK-630 from an unstable platform, figure it out, a few seconds before the missile approaches, and pray?

Nobody argues that a reasonable approach is needed.
There is no doubt that weapons are now being used in a comprehensive manner, in the aggregate, and the fleet needs to be formed in the same way.
But to suffer from imbecility, such as 10 pelvises can be compared with a nuclear cruiser - no one has ever suffered like that, you are the first. But no, like liberal idiotic characters from 90, even Navalny realized that the army was needed.

Yes, for one such cruiser, proportionally, three or four destroyers/large frigates are needed, corvettes are needed, AWACS and reconnaissance are needed, and ideally an aircraft carrier. Yes, for the coastal zone we need corvettes, MRKs (but not gunboats, but planes, PLO, Karl)
But no one has ever tried to replace a battleship consisting of a dozen corvettes, or an aircraft carrier with a pair of barges with turntables or seaplanes.

Their combat capabilities cannot be compared as stupidly as you did.
Moreover, you can read how they tried to compensate for the Arli-Burkes with corvettes 20380-20385, which turned out funny, 1 destroyer is 3,25 corvettes, yes.... But in terms of combat effectiveness, the destroyer is orders of magnitude better, and in terms of economic efficiency too, subject to mass production.
It’s also easier to produce, and its manufacturability is also orders of magnitude better.
That's great, is not it?

[sirim]

The author tried to justify the abnormal situation in the Navy, but the logic of reasoning is at the elementary school level. I am sure that the article is custom-made. They steal in Russia so much that you can build more than one AUG with this money. The author's arithmetic is humiliating. This way you can justify anything, and this article clearly shows this.

[Evgeny Seleznev]

"Hypothetical situation: the US Navy's AUG is approaching, say, the Kuril Islands. A detachment of 8 MRKs comes out to meet them and fires a preventive salvo, hiding behind the islands. 64 missiles. Or 20 missiles from the Admiral Nakhimov. - who or what will direct the small gunboats to the target? since they are blind from birth? - but how do they resist an AUG raid, there is also a Hawkeye AWACS aircraft and the gunboats have no air defense? These are dead ends for BO ships and only those that do not have an ASW function. But there are many of them.