Military Review

Germany will create a 130-mm cannon for a promising MGCS tank "capable of withstanding the Russian T-14 Armata"

202

Rheinmetall (Germany) will create a 130-mm cannon for the newest European tank until the middle of this decade. The weapon already exists, but will still be refined.


Gerhard Heiming writes about this in an article published by the German edition of Europäische Sicherheit & Technik.

The timing of the completion of the work is coordinated with the development schedule of the future European MGCS (Main Ground Combat System) tank. According to the plan, the conceptual choice of weapons should take place by the end of 2022, and the demonstration phase is scheduled for 2024. The competitor of the German gun is the development of the French company Nexter - a 140-mm tank gun.

According to Rheinmetall estimates, there are no other projects on the market that require an accelerated pace of the creation of a 130 mm cannon.

It was this caliber that was chosen as the most optimal using mathematical modeling. It gives the best combination of high precision and high kinetic energy of the projectile. Also, about 50 other parameters were taken into account that can affect these characteristics, among which the most important are the diameter of the turret swing platform, recoil force and barrel length.


The first 130mm cannon demonstrator was manufactured in 2016 and demonstrated at the Eurosatory exhibition. The reason for this rearmament was the creation in Russia of the T-14 "Armata" tank. In Europe, they do not hide that they are creating a tank capable of withstanding the Russian T-14.

Photos used:
https://twitter.com/RheinmetallAG
202 comments
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    2. Quadro
      Quadro 10 March 2021 12: 28
      -15%
      Again fairy tales from the leader. They 2a7 cannot really do in large quantities and this is on the old base, and then suddenly more new tanks are riveted than reinforcement, ha-ha. We probably have T-90m with rebar more than 2a7 throughout the Wehrmacht.
      1. Postum
        Postum 10 March 2021 12: 31
        +7
        Why do they need 2A7 in large numbers, is someone seriously going to fight?
        1. Incvizitor
          Incvizitor 10 March 2021 14: 17
          -1
          Well, some Germans seem to think that the war will be a battalion of armatures against a battalion of mgcs head-on, that all their tanks will be knocked out by aviation, this does not bother anyone.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 10 March 2021 23: 59
            0
            Firstly, the FRG also has aviation. Including the contingents of the US Air Force deployed on their territory and neighboring countries, which will increase during the threatened period (remember, now in Europe there are within 50 thousand US military, and in 1989 there were more than 200 thousand).
            Secondly, their task is to hold out until the arrival of equipment and soldiers of the "elder brother".
        2. Quadro
          Quadro 10 March 2021 16: 54
          -7
          Quote: Postum
          Why do they need 2A7 in large numbers, is someone seriously going to fight?

          Do you live in a pink world? Every day they bark about "from a position of strength" and "Russian aggression", but at the same time the army is in a complete mess, half of the air force is nailed to the ground like the armored forces.
          1. Postum
            Postum 10 March 2021 19: 20
            +2
            And what?, In Russia, too, they constantly bark about the "bloody" and "insidious" NATA. There are no insurmountable reasons for the conflict, our money is brought there, resources too. Why ruin everything. And this is nothing more than for domestic consumption
        3. ironic
          ironic 10 March 2021 21: 58
          +1
          MBT in large numbers is not needed today for war either.
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 10 March 2021 13: 05
        0
        Yes, yes ... The Germans do not know how to do anything: neither cars, nor household appliances, nor weapons ... Thank you - they opened our eyes to life. I'll go and write to a colleague in Germany (a former Kazakh German) if he wants to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?
        1. smart ass
          smart ass 10 March 2021 13: 21
          +5
          First compare the price of grants with the German car industry and then pour mud
          1. mvg
            mvg 10 March 2021 14: 06
            -2
            Price first compare grants with the German auto industry

            Compare, Rapid or Jettu with Vesta ... so what? And if you take used options, without customs clearance, it's generally interesting.
            1. smart ass
              smart ass 10 March 2021 14: 28
              0
              Compared Vesta is cooler than Rapid, Jetta's price tag is higher than garazdo
              1. mvg
                mvg 10 March 2021 15: 52
                -3
                Compared Vesta is cooler than Rapid

                Don't make it up. The initial configuration of the Rapid is 430 thousand rubles (the beginning of the configuration of the Rapid is better than Vesta). I rode on Vesta ... not bad, but this is a VAZ with a Nissan engine. He sat down on Grant, swore, bought Kalina for his wife, quiet horror. There were 25-30 cars under the ass. From the classics to the Mercedes-coupe in the 210 and 124 body. There is something to compare with. Vesta is Lohan's level. At the same time, Lohan has better suspension. The service is not cheaper, I have been serving the best auto parts store in the region for 15 years, I represent the prices.
                PS: For me VW T-5 is the best car ... or Starex
                1. smart ass
                  smart ass 10 March 2021 16: 23
                  +1
                  Rapid starting price 430? !!!!! are you from 2014? When I watched the rapid, the minimum wage was 792 rubles in the configuration of which you would not wish the enemy. And I watched it six months ago
                  1. mvg
                    mvg 10 March 2021 17: 09
                    -2
                    Rapida starting price 430?

                    In the winter I was going to buy, a little deceived, Fabia, in the same class as Vesta. RAPID class C. Several salons were invited, just come. As a result, used Stareks added to his trade wind. About 15 years the second car in the family is a micrik. It is difficult to change from the bus to a small car.
                    // In Russia, the price of a new Skoda Fabia car from an authorized dealer was 419 - 000 rubles, the car was presented for sale in 639 trim levels. //
                    1. smart ass
                      smart ass 10 March 2021 18: 22
                      +1
                      On the comparison of Fabia and Vesta, you can end the conversation due to its futility
                      1. mvg
                        mvg 10 March 2021 21: 00
                        -2
                        On the comparison of Fabia and Vesta, you can end

                        Vesta and Fabia are of the same class. Class B. This is an axiom. Engines from 1,0 65 l / s to 2.0 l TSi up to 200 l / s. Same as POLO
            2. lucul
              lucul 10 March 2021 20: 45
              -8
              Compare, Rapid or Jettu with Vesta ... so what? And if you take used options, without customs clearance, it's generally interesting.

              What to compare? How are the Germans doing with space and aircraft construction?
              Germany was forbidden to have an army, so the best minds ended up in civilian life, hence the result.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 11 March 2021 12: 44
                +2
                Quote: lucul

                What to compare? How are the Germans doing with space and aircraft construction?
                Germany was forbidden to have an army, so the best minds ended up in civilian life, hence the result.

                Don't you know that 20 years ago the international concern EADS was created, which later became Airbus?
                And Germany and its Daimler-Benz Aerospace AG also have an equal share in it.

                And yes. learning materiel.
                DASA was Germany's largest arms exporter. ....
                and Germany's contribution to the successful launch of the European space rocket Ariane. In addition, the company was the main contractor and subcontractor in the production of many scientific satellites, space projects, including the Columbus ISS module.

                What now?
                Like this:
                EADS is the sole shareholder (100%) of Airbus SAS, a company manufacturing passenger, freight and military transport aircraft. The concern also owns:
                100% Eurocopter (helicopters).
                100% EADS Astrium (satellites).
                50% ATR (turboprop aircraft).
                47% Dassault Aviation (fighters).
                46% Eurofighter GmbH (fighters).
                40% MBDA (missiles).
                Airbus Military.

                PS
                You have already been written so many times about your militant ignorance that any reasonable person would have learned to think with his head before writing ...

                But apparently, a normal phenomenon of thought use does not visit you.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 11 March 2021 20: 05
                  -2
                  And yes. learning materiel.

                  Izzy you're wrong)))
                  Don't you know that 20 years ago the international concern EADS was created, which later became Airbus?
                  And Germany and its Daimler-Benz Aerospace AG also have an equal share in it.

                  Having a share does not mean developing yourself)))) India won a share in many of our projects, but that does not mean that they developed it themselves.
                  What now?
                  Like this:
                  EADS is the sole shareholder (100%) of Airbus SAS, which manufactures passenger, cargo and military transport aircraft.

                  Military transport aircraft, in terms of technology, lag behind fighters, if anything.
                  47% Dassault Aviation (fighters).
                  46% Eurofighter GmbH (fighters).

                  This is just a fraction - Germany itself does not have the technology necessary to produce a fighter of the level of advanced countries.
                  You have already been written so many times about your militant ignorance that any reasonable person would have learned to think with his head before writing ...

                  No need to project your hidden complexes on me)))
                  It was you who wrote to all of Haifa - that "There are no calibers, these are all cartoons shot at Soyuzmultfilm." )))
                  Then they wrote the same thing about Caliber, you generally deny everything that Russia can produce. Due to the intransigence of Russophobia, even Bandera are having a rest in comparison with Haifa.
                  1. SovAr238A
                    SovAr238A 11 March 2021 20: 44
                    +2
                    Those. company MBB, which later became DASA, Having merged with two more aircraft manufacturing companies - ceased to be a manufacturer of combat aircraft?
                    Typhoon - no?
                    Although production was distributed among the participating countries, did Germany cease to be an aviation country from this? Moreover, all the tests of the aircraft were in Germany - and all the latest versions are also tested and flown in Germany, in Munich ...
                    They did the same with the excellent Eurojet EJ200 engine ... And MTU is a full participant in the development and production of this engine and a fully automated engine management system is their development, which they 100% shared with the rest of the participants.

                    For this, European consortia are being created so that all participating countries are at the same level of development.
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 11 March 2021 20: 52
                      -6
                      Those. company MBB, which later became DASA, Having merged with two more aircraft manufacturing companies - ceased to be a manufacturer of combat aircraft?
                      Typhoon - no?

                      And think with your head? )))
                      Both ZAZ-968M and Mercedes are formally also cars, but they do not compete with each other.
                      So in aircraft construction - Typhoon is far from Sushki. The Indians have recently conducted training battles against the British in Typhoons, the result is 18-0 in favor of the Su-30.
                      1. SovAr238A
                        SovAr238A 11 March 2021 21: 32
                        0
                        Quote: lucul
                        Those. company MBB, which later became DASA, Having merged with two more aircraft manufacturing companies - ceased to be a manufacturer of combat aircraft?
                        Typhoon - no?

                        And think with your head? )))
                        Both ZAZ-968M and Mercedes are formally also cars, but they do not compete with each other.
                        So in aircraft construction - Typhoon is far from Sushki. The Indians have recently conducted training battles against the British in Typhoons, the result is 18-0 in favor of the Su-30.

                        And what is not 50-0?
                        Is the Russian newspaper the correct source of information?
                        We should note that there were no official comments on the results, since the victory or defeat of the sides was not expected.

                        https://rg.ru/2015/08/07/sukhoi30-site.html

                        Even an Indian, one Indian wrote about 12: 0, which caused bewilderment even in the Indian Air Force from his words ...
                        And then even the Indian press wrote why India buys Rafali, which lost air battles to typhoons, which in turn lost (according to the lone captain of the Indian Air Force) the Su-30MKI? Then you would have bought another 40 Su-30MKIs, but for some reason you bought a rafali?

                        And yes.
                        Do you know how the aerial training battles go and what scenarios?

                        For example, the "balsamic" victories of the Indians over the Americans at the Red Flag were in scenarios 1 F-15 against 3 Su-30MKI, and the most massive and most "balm" was in the ratio of 6 F-15 against 18 Su-30MKI.
                        And all this without radars.
                        BVB only.
                      2. lucul
                        lucul 11 March 2021 21: 38
                        -5
                        And what is not 50-0?

                        So this information appears after joint exercises, approximately every 5 years.
                        And now why are the British on the front page of The Times shouting that "Hurray, we lost to our former colony, a mock battle with a score of 18-0"? No, they do not comment on the loss, just as they do not deny it.
                        Over the past 20 years, there have been several such training battles, and the Indians won in Sushki.
                      3. SovAr238A
                        SovAr238A 11 March 2021 21: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: lucul
                        And what is not 50-0?

                        So this information appears after joint exercises, approximately every 5 years.
                        And now why are the British on the front page of The Times shouting that "Hurray, we lost to our former colony, a mock battle with a score of 18-0"? No, they do not comment on the loss, just as they do not deny it.
                        Over the past 20 years, there have been several such training battles, and the Indians won in Sushki.


                        Once again - why 18: 0?

                        In 2011, the Indians lost out to the British in a devastating manner.
                        This is a fact.
                        The Indians themselves wrote about this.
                        In 2015, we won the BVB and lost the average fight cleanly.

                        In 2004 or 2005, we won something on Redflag, apparently there was also one Indian, but I wrote the scripts for you. when 18 against 6 at the same time is a defeat of course ...
                        But who benefits from it?
                    2. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 11 March 2021 21: 39
                      +2
                      Video of a training dogfight between Su-30MKM and F / A-18D. Hornet with two PTBs.

                      P.S. Su-30 lost all 3 training battles.
          2. mvg
            mvg 11 March 2021 18: 53
            0
            that's why the best minds ended up in civilian life, hence the result

            And what, the Germans suffered from this? What makes the world's best cars, beer and sausages? That they did not take part in either the Vietnam or the Korean Wars, they did not give the Araps equipment worth hundreds of billions of dollars, they didn’t pump money into a hopeless type of Buran-Energia, Orlyonok, and hundreds of other failed projects. But they are respected all over the world, they do not have Ukraine, Georgia, sprat republics on the border, they do not fight in Syria, Libya and the Caucasus.
            PS: Despite the fact that we missed a lot in our life, they live well ..
            1. lucul
              lucul 11 March 2021 20: 13
              -1
              And what, the Germans suffered from this? What makes the world's best cars, beer and sausages?

              I understand that your default is "Katz offers to surrender."
              But the level of technology of the country manifests itself precisely in the military sphere, as the most critical for survival, and not in consumer goods - in the form of 200 varieties of sausage, or who has a more luxurious carriage (popovka).
              But you are far from this understanding - you have been invested in the subcortex since childhood that the loan interest will decide everything. But this is far from the case.
              Vaughn Fidel Castro died a natural death of old age, despite the billions spent by the Zionists on his murder, despite hundreds of attempts on his life, over the past 50 years.
              1. mvg
                mvg 11 March 2021 21: 01
                0
                But the level of the country's technology is manifested precisely in the military sphere, as the most critical for survival.

                What nonsense ... Think like in North Korea. Let people starve, but there is a vigorous club and 12 political camps for hundreds of thousands of people.
                I don't care what tanks, ships and missiles we have, if there is nothing to eat.
                And about military technologies: they should be displayed in civilian life, but something will not be displayed in any way, a mirror is bad (curved) or a differential.
                Have we got an advanced heavy industry? Or something else advanced. Well, there are turbines, civil (and military) shipbuilding, aircraft manufacturing, are there any developments in construction? Microelectronics? Where is the Russian Federation among the leaders?
                PS: What does Castro have to do with it? Do the Zionists know they spent a billion on his assassination attempts? De Gaulle also has over 100 assassination attempts, so what?
                1. lucul
                  lucul 11 March 2021 21: 20
                  -2
                  What nonsense

                  I confirm - all this is written by you.
    3. tralflot1832
      tralflot1832 10 March 2021 13: 33
      +3
      hi And at the same time ask the port of the free city of Hamburg, it is not a Chinese case, the plant there already belongs to Pella. what
      1. smart ass
        smart ass 10 March 2021 13: 57
        0
        A colleague of Padi bought a Bosch mixer and thinks that the Germans collected it for him))))
        1. tralflot1832
          tralflot1832 10 March 2021 14: 02
          0
          Yes, it says in small print, made in China, very small.
        2. Roman070280
          Roman070280 10 March 2021 14: 59
          +3
          However, the whole country prefers Bosch ..
          Not Chinese / Russian rock drills / plates ..
          Strange, huh ??)
          1. smart ass
            smart ass 10 March 2021 15: 41
            +1
            Bosch, by the way, power tools are assembled in russia, which is not in russia, then in china
            1. Roman070280
              Roman070280 10 March 2021 15: 52
              +2
              Which only emphasizes that it's not just about where they collect ...
              You also need to be able to "do" ..
            2. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 10 March 2021 20: 45
              -6
              It's not your truth - I speak Hungarian. Satisfied with the quality.
    4. Simargl
      Simargl 10 March 2021 14: 17
      +2
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Does he want to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?
      I do not even know...
      1. smart ass
        smart ass 10 March 2021 14: 31
        +1
        I have a Vesta sedan cross at maximum speed, happy as an elephant. Yesterday I went to TO 30 thousand
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 10 March 2021 14: 38
          +1
          Quote: Clever man
          I have a Vesta sedan cross at maximum speed
          There was a sedan 1,6, now like a splash screen, but a gray 1,8 tongue
          So far, only MMS is infuriating, or rather - CityGad am
          1. smart ass
            smart ass 10 March 2021 14: 53
            -4
            there are people who like to invest in a 10 year old German bucket. And mms does not piss me off, I turn on the music on the bluetooth and drove
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 10 March 2021 15: 10
              -1
              Well ... if only a 10 year old ... with the same MB-124: not everyone realizes that this is a taxi.
            2. SovAr238A
              SovAr238A 10 March 2021 15: 14
              +3
              Quote: Clever man
              there are people who like to invest in a 10 year old German bucket. And mms does not piss me off, I turn on the music on the bluetooth and drove

              Have you looked at the number of imported parts in your car?
              To the level of 70% could only be reduced for almost 5 years.
              Below is no way.

              So Vesta is not our car.
              Even if one manufacturer such as Bosch stops supplying products to Izhmash, Vesta will disappear.
              1. smart ass
                smart ass 10 March 2021 15: 40
                0
                I agree with you completely and I am very happy for the Germans.
              2. cat Rusich
                cat Rusich 10 March 2021 19: 59
                -1
                Quote: SovAr238A

                So Vesta is not our car.
                Even if one manufacturer such as Bosch stops supplying products to Izhmash, Vesta will disappear.
                And if Gazprom stops "warming" Germany ...
                There is a variant of LNG from the USA or "Greta Tumberg with wind giants" ...
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 10 March 2021 23: 53
                  +1
                  Then the budget of the Russian Federation will noticeably receive less funds. Who should be cut in funding: doctors or teachers (I am prudently silent about officials)? smile
                  1. cat Rusich
                    cat Rusich 11 March 2021 00: 18
                    0
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Then the budget of the Russian Federation will noticeably receive less funds. smile
                    I'm talking about the fact that in the "world of capitalism" everything is interconnected ... Who knows how to benefit (profit ...) even under sanctions and other prohibitions.
                    This is about a conversation - how are things going with the "Russian car industry" (or with its absence ...) - "German" can cover the supply of auto parts, but they will be replaced - "Chinese". "German" will lose "a few euros" of profit ... and someone in Germany will also "tighten the belt one more hole" (perhaps even on the neck ...). By the way, I'm watching the news on TV - "Metal flasks and bowlers in the army will be replaced with PLASTIC ..." soldier
                  2. SovAr238A
                    SovAr238A 11 March 2021 12: 29
                    +2
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Then the budget of the Russian Federation will noticeably receive less funds. smile
                    I'm talking about the fact that in the "world of capitalism" everything is interconnected ... Who knows how to benefit (profit ...) even under sanctions and other prohibitions.
                    This is about a conversation - how are things going with the "Russian car industry" (or with its absence ...) - "German" can cover the supply of auto parts, but they will be replaced - "Chinese".


                    Remember how a few years ago, American banks were forbidden to finance our budget.
                    How many shouts of "hurray, hurray" - now the most powerful Chinese banks will come, they are our friends and will give us cheap money ...
                    Did not come.
                    Not a single high-level Chinese manufacturer with global trade works with any of the companies that are on the sanctions list.
                    No one.
                    For our market is penny, and no one wants to lose the world market because of the "penny".
                    Take it for granted.
                  3. cat Rusich
                    cat Rusich 11 March 2021 20: 53
                    0
                    Quote: SovAr238A

                    For our market is penny, and no one wants to lose the world market because of the "penny".
                    Take it for granted.
                    Well at least they buy OIL WITH GAS ... wassat
      2. smart ass
        smart ass 10 March 2021 15: 45
        0
        By the way, this color is called Mars, and I know this because I have the same
    5. yehat2
      yehat2 10 March 2021 15: 07
      +5
      I have a Toyota cow 2008.
      145k mileage, not a single independent breakdown and a planned replacement of the clutch after 100k (just in case). I look into the hood only to replenish the washer.
      Germans, weep with envy. tongue
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 10 March 2021 15: 15
        +3
        Quote: yehat2
        I have a Toyota cow 2008.
        145k mileage, not a single independent breakdown and a planned replacement of the clutch after 100k (just in case). I look into the hood only to replenish the washer.
        Germans, weep with envy. tongue


        Amarok is a worker.
        Works 24/7.
        for 20 months, the mileage is 500 thousand km.
        8 different drivers working on a shift-sliding schedule.
        Cheer now.
        1. ironic
          ironic 10 March 2021 21: 55
          +1
          And I like compact cars. Golf plus, turbodiesel, from this machine of traffic jams and megacities.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 10 March 2021 15: 51
        +2
        Toyota is the best in its class "compact family". The Germans are far from them in quality.
        1. ironic
          ironic 10 March 2021 21: 52
          0
          But I would not have exchanged for King Jetta for any rugs. Yes, cows rarely break, but you don't want to ride them.
  • mojohed2012
    mojohed2012 10 March 2021 15: 58
    0
    Better Lada-Priora ...
  • Quadro
    Quadro 10 March 2021 16: 50
    -3
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Yes, yes ... The Germans do not know how to do anything: neither cars, nor household appliances, nor weapons ... Thank you - they opened our eyes to life. I'll go and write to a colleague in Germany (a former Kazakh German) if he wants to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?

    What does this have to do with cars and household appliances? Or just say something? Although write to your comrade, the pace of production and deployment to the troops of 2a7 will not increase, the first EU economy, with a meager fleet, which is still more than half under repair, along with a tornado in the air force. And yes, the Germans do not drive German cars, except perhaps for such repatriates, which immediately speaks of who is a stranger here.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 10 March 2021 20: 49
      -8
      I'm sorry, what?!!! Germans don't drive German cars? Who poured this nonsense into your ears? Have you ever been to Germany? Just watch a video about the country and count how many German marks are on the roads, and how many others! Lord, they would have kept silent - and no one would have noticed your incompetence!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 10 March 2021 23: 50
      0
      This will not increase the pace of production and deployment of 2a7 troops, the first EU economy, with a meager fleet, which is still more than half under repair, along with a tornado in the air force.

      I would say that this is a matter of priorities, not a lack of production capacity.
      And we inherited a huge fleet of tanks, which we are modernizing. A fundamentally new one is going very hard.
  • lucul
    lucul 10 March 2021 20: 42
    -3
    Yes, yes ... The Germans do not know how to do anything: neither cars, nor household appliances, nor weapons ... Thank you - they opened our eyes to life. I'll go and write to a colleague in Germany (a former Kazakh German) if he wants to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?

    Everything is according to the manual - "with a direct comparison of technologies, it is imperative to focus on Avtovaz products"))))
  • Dkuznecov
    Dkuznecov 10 March 2021 23: 39
    0
    "Kazakh Germans", as well as "Krasnoyarsk",
    they have nothing to do with the Germans.
    I assure you. By the way, by the way, they do not consider themselves to be Germans.
    They speak Russian.
    In German society, they are Russians, outcasts, untouchables,
    because they think in Russian.
    With a Russian, a tough temperament.

    The trouble of resettlement, integration.
    These people and their children are not mounted
    into German society and live in their own communities.
    Something like that.

    I bought shawarma from a Turk in Cologne, asked
    what a wildest accent, I don’t understand a damn thing ...
    In response - do you need it? "Daddy, come here and explain it to me."
  • figwam
    figwam 10 March 2021 13: 11
    -7
    By the time such a tank is created, Armata will already have a 152 mm gun.
    1. smart ass
      smart ass 10 March 2021 13: 21
      +8
      And a blaster on the roof
    2. dgonni
      dgonni 10 March 2021 13: 54
      0
      The 152mm workings remained in Kharkov!
      As for loading and layout!
      The boxer / hammer was on the way out. A plant was built for it. The pre-series workers are still standing at the KhBKM and even in 2005 they rode at the training ground. Quite working cars!
      P.S. The sycentricity was laid back in the 80s in the hammer / boxer. Even on that element base!
      When working out, the unmanned turret brought an overwhelming amount of problems. Especially when driving through the forest! Therefore, in the final version, it acquired a body kit made of armor that prevented branches from entering the shot supply system. And protected from small fragments and bullets at the end!
      P C.2. The tank turned out to be over expensive even with the alliance.
      The amount of titanium just went off scale. 7, the BTU support suspension was not really perceived. That, in principle, such tanks did not differ in agility. Armata is in the same category!
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 10 March 2021 13: 59
        +3
        Quote: dgonni
        When working out, the unmanned turret brought an overwhelming amount of problems. Especially when driving through the forest! Therefore, in the final version, it acquired a body kit made of armor that prevented branches from entering the shot supply system. And protected from small fragments and bullets at the end!
        You are clearly not describing a tower but a carriage layout.
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 10 March 2021 14: 40
          +3
          Well, if feng shui? That same and yes! Although a lot has changed since the Boxer!
          The tank was really breakthrough. Even a pancake read the instruction manual. Space for those times. Some 20+ sensors for firing and countering.
          In my opinion, something was from space. On the tower in terms of communication.
          YES! Pre-serials started and fired normally in the 2000s! Agility is certainly not 64ka or 72ka!
      2. figwam
        figwam 10 March 2021 14: 41
        +3
        Quote: dgonni
        The 152mm workings remained in Kharkov!

        Kharkov has nothing to do with it. Object 195. For a long time everything is in iron and a cannon, and a projectile, and an automatic loader, and Armata is its continuation.
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 10 March 2021 14: 51
          0
          Don't tell my trucks!
          And if I accept the T-95 as something new in Omsk! That Armata is a palliative and wild sawing the dough with Tagil! What, however, they all their lives and were engaged in sawing the loot pushing semi-working equipment into the army!
          In fact, in his entire life, Tagil has not made a single pocket machine!
          It was and is a plant for the mass production of a mob tank. T-90? This is a piece of iron with fire control systems installed at 64/80 much earlier!
          Who has been to landfills knows!
          They won 64 b / b for the prize money!
          Because the torsion bars are coaxial and 80ka will never give those hits on the move with the same turret. With the same stabilizer!
          1. figwam
            figwam 10 March 2021 14: 56
            0
            Quote: dgonni
            They won 64 b / b for the prize money!

            So keep driving the T-64.
            1. dgonni
              dgonni 10 March 2021 14: 58
              0
              Donbass is not complaining!
              1. figwam
                figwam 10 March 2021 15: 03
                0
                Quote: dgonni
                Donbass is not complaining!

                This tank is for southern latitudes, and the suspension is weak.
                1. dgonni
                  dgonni 10 March 2021 15: 10
                  0
                  Do not read Tagil engineers!
                  I, as an expo-attorney, will tell you!
                  On weak soils, there is no better 64k tank! Goose discharges were on the first series!
                  Where are 64ki on the peat bog? There 72e sit on the belly immediately!
                  BUT! If stone and mountains? Here the 72ki goose is out of competition!
                  80ka? Something in between. On peat sand loses 64ke, on stones? 72ke. But on the road does both!
                  This is generally lame and if there is fuel to give someone a lift.
                  1. figwam
                    figwam 10 March 2021 15: 16
                    0
                    Quote: dgonni
                    Do not read Tagil engineers!

                    Even in Soviet times, the T-64 was not deployed to the north, only the T-72, and even better the T-80, because the GTE.
                  2. dgonni
                    dgonni 10 March 2021 16: 25
                    +1
                    Well, tell me about the launch of the turbine over -30 +!
                    And that is interesting! 64ku there just tagil filled up with stories. However, like Peter 80koy!
                    64ka was the base! On which NORMAL crews and commanders were trained!
                    After 54/55 and 62? This is space!
                    Even 64a! And 64b? This is for a company and above a stupidly incomprehensible tank which they could not master!
                    Red-faced leitenants did them at once in any situation!
                    Competent battalion commanders selected lieutenants from Kharkov and Omsk and piled up training on them.
                    The illiterate tried to get out on the former knowledge.
                    Youth have always won!
                    In the ZGV 500 km, the march with firing of 64ki was perfect.
                    With regards to 72ki! This is ersatz!
                    Any platoon lump knew that!
                    It was simple in terms of exploitation, but it was never a front line tank!
                    P.S. 64 b / b and 80 b are tanks for which a pro crew was needed.
                    72ka, the extreme series also allowed tractor drivers to roll.
                    But it has nothing to do with combat effectiveness!
                  3. figwam
                    figwam 10 March 2021 17: 05
                    -2
                    This is the only tank that goes to service in the Arctic! It takes 52 seconds to warm up)
                  4. dgonni
                    dgonni 10 March 2021 17: 52
                    +1
                    52 to warm up? Come on ! Open the instructions and read!
                    At minus 30, you get tortured!
                    No, maybe in a minute and a half. But the turbine is out after that. No problem! If there is no fire!
                    Although unlikely!
                  5. dgonni
                    dgonni 10 March 2021 21: 20
                    0
                    Come on! Well, let's open the manual for the mechanic drive and talk about it!
                    Handsome men!
                2. The leader of the Redskins
                  The leader of the Redskins 10 March 2021 20: 51
                  0
                  And what does Omsk have to do with it? There, after all, not commanders, but engineers were released!
                3. dgonni
                  dgonni 10 March 2021 21: 34
                  +1
                  And they were taken in bulk by platoon commanders and rembats in FGP!
                  For the tower and the concept of the turbine, well, when the 80s went!
                  Or do you think the 80s were easy?
                  At first there were a lot of flooded and damaged turbines in the 80s.
                  By the way! Somehow, in one moment, the old shots left after 64x and then 80x!

                  Here he is a handsome former in the Czech Republic and a battalion commander with a star. Oops! Figs draws a tank for you.
                  In my opinion, by the middle of the 75th in the FGP, the old personnel were gone.
                  Well, they began to send smart fighters.
                  And if you spilled oil at 54ki when you put it in? That is his mother and so is it.
                  In 64ki, the cooling system immediately clogs.
                  And on loess soils in Germany, this is an unambiguous overheating and the end of the engine.
                  While they taught the fighters to lay the rugs correctly when refueling, they were worn out.
                  In this regard, the place of filling with oil 64ka is not a fountain.
                  Without a mat, how not pour oil and the wind falls on the radiator. And considering the ejection cooling system? Even more so.
                  Not simple in the plan.
              2. Sergey Kulikov_3
                Sergey Kulikov_3 11 March 2021 02: 29
                0
                He served in the GSVG 83-85, watched the 500 km march of the T64, 3 remained from the company !!! tank, after which the "march" stopped. Just do not say that it is the mechanics who are to blame, have at least a little conscience. Tell us where and when was it different with the T64?
          2. yehat2
            yehat2 10 March 2021 17: 17
            +1
            Quote: dgonni
            But on the road does both!

            Once a tanker from near Omsk boasted to me that in a T-80, when it was being driven for storage along the highway, a Zhiguli 9-ku was overtaken. He says that it was quite possible to accelerate downhill to 90 km / h.
          3. dgonni
            dgonni 10 March 2021 18: 00
            0
            On the asphalt? My mezvod in the FGP told me for 120 tons! Although I understood that he was driving somewhere in the area of ​​one hundred square meters.
            In terms of revolutions, it simply did not slip away!
            Is that so? Yes! 80ka is fast and dynamic.
            Tower? Gut. Goose? Gut on the asphalt. Why not drive along the roads of Europe?
            Kerosene / solarium eats unmeasured hippopotamus like cabbage. Well, you won't put a tvktorist with a mechanic driver!
            Ce la vie pancake!
          4. Sergey Kulikov_3
            Sergey Kulikov_3 11 March 2021 02: 42
            0
            What is FGP? I served in the GSVG, but everything was somehow different there and T64 was clearly Mr. even against the background of T54. I did not serve as a tanker, but the tankers were located nearby, and we often crossed paths with them during training.
  • Quadro
    Quadro 10 March 2021 16: 57
    -1
    Quote: dgonni
    Don't tell my trucks!
    And if I accept the T-95 as something new in Omsk! That Armata is a palliative and wild sawing the dough with Tagil! What, however, they all their lives and were engaged in sawing the loot pushing semi-working equipment into the army!
    In fact, in his entire life, Tagil has not made a single pocket machine!
    It was and is a plant for the mass production of a mob tank. T-90? This is a piece of iron with fire control systems installed at 64/80 much earlier!
    Who has been to landfills knows!
    They won 64 b / b for the prize money!
    Because the torsion bars are coaxial and 80ka will never give those hits on the move with the same turret. With the same stabilizer!

    Genius, and now try to modernize the "wonderful T-64", hell, you modernize it with such a wretched chassis. Ukropsky damask is barely woven and overloaded.
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 10 March 2021 18: 02
      0
      64ka started with 37 tons and right now it is calmly rolling from 42/45!
      Okostya! Morozov made a tank with a reserve for centuries!
      You will write in the subject! If not? Come on by!
      1. Quadro
        Quadro 10 March 2021 18: 31
        -2
        Quote: dgonni
        64ka started with 37 tons and right now it is calmly rolling from 42/45!
        Okostya! Morozov made a tank with a reserve for centuries!
        You will write in the subject! If not? Come on by!

        What nonsense are you writing? Do you think that fools were sitting in the USSR Ministry of Defense? To whom will you tell stories that he can ride with 45 tons without any problems? Or is it an indicator of your pokatushki at the exhibition? Well, it will not fall apart right there, only the resource will be zero. And this is only the first problem. The second is a complex engine, for the repair of which separate specialists are needed. And also a vicious circle - the engine cannot cope with modernizing the protection, the chassis cannot cope with changing the engine. And also a flawed vertical carousel, the tower will be thrown right there.
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 10 March 2021 18: 34
          +1
          Have you personally rolled it? Or were they sitting in the tower?
          Or is it so easy to fart on the site?
          For the highly advanced! Tower 80ki is similar to 64ke!
          1. Quadro
            Quadro 10 March 2021 18: 58
            -2
            Quote: dgonni
            Have you personally rolled it? Or were they sitting in the tower?
            Or is it so easy to fart on the site?
            For the highly advanced! Tower 80ki is similar to 64ke!

            You, instead of grinding nonsense, would have written on the case. And in general, it's funny to watch another iksperda that considers himself smarter than the USSR Ministry of Defense and starts to take "on show" they say whether I rode a T-64. Firstly, there is no T-64 in Russia, and secondly, almost no one in the world uses the T-64, unlike the T-72/90. And here you are fighting in hysterics with a typical Ukrov "vyvsevrete".
          2. dgonni
            dgonni 10 March 2021 19: 20
            +2
            Once again for the advanced! 64 b / b and 80 b / b have a similar tower and control system!
            64KA was first shown at the EMNiP parade in 86! In this case, again in option b!
            After the collapse of the union, they were bought from Moldova as a set and tested on Aberdeen!
            Then a short article about the potential came out.
            A meeting of NATO tanks with the 64th would have more serious consequences for them than those of the Deutsche in the 41st with 34!
            For the LMS and everything else, not a single question followed!
            These are the conclusions of the enemy!
            P.S. We asked something like that at the polygons! And figly on 72k there is no ZPU like 64ki! It is already there and sensible!
            Do you know what the representative of the plant answered?
            And this in 5 years we will make an order and we will receive medals with prizes!
            Tagil he is so tagil for life!
            Cram the bullshit into the part but it's kind of cheap. And then it cost an order of magnitude more expensive!
            Even Peter in those days at least did something of his own. Omsk tried. And tagil parasitized and told jokes for the conveyor!
          3. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 March 2021 11: 22
            +1
            Quote: dgonni
            Tagil he is so tagil for life!
            Shove the bullshit into the part but it's kind of cheap.

            So it is not Tagil's fault, but the USSR Ministry of Defense - which, when switching to the T-64, laid the concept of tanks of the first and second lines. Because even the USSR did not have the money to re-equip completely on the T-64 of the basic configuration. Therefore, Kharkov made the first-line T-64, and Tagil was tasked with making a "second-line", simplified and cheap version of the T-64 - for the internal districts, the Asian and DV theaters.
            But Tagil, as you know, did not pull the Kharkiv product. Or he simply did not want to tinker with a "foreign" product (EMNIP, sw. M. Svirin wrote that in order to organize the production of the T-64, Tagil demanded unrealistic - to carry out modernization at a cost of a third of the new plant and stop production for two years). And he rolled out his "objects" instead, of which the result was the T-72 - a cheap and massive second-line tank. As the USSR Ministry of Defense wanted it.
          4. dgonni
            dgonni 11 March 2021 12: 05
            0
            Well, almost so. The question is that Tagil simply did not WANT and could not use 64ki technology. Therefore, I pushed 72ku. What then backfired on the union with terrible problems in logistics. As for spare parts and OMS. Morozov spoke about this already. Instead of a mobilization 64ka with an engine by the great-grandson of the V-2, we got a completely different tank.
            P.S. And at the end of the union there was generally trash and frenzy. For there were 4 main tanks in service at once! 64BV, T-72B, T-80BV / U and the cherry on the cake T-80UD birch!
            The zampotechs were completely out. And if you also remember the T-55AM of all series that were also in service with the extreme T-62e. That the zoo was just resting in comparison with the tank units of the USSR Armed Forces.
          5. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 March 2021 12: 22
            +1
            Quote: dgonni
            And at the end of the union there was generally trash and frenzy. For there were 4 main tanks in service at once! 64BV, T-72B, T-80BV / U and the cherry on the cake T-80UD birch!
            The zampotechs were completely out. And if you also remember the T-55AM of all series that were also in service with the extreme T-62e.

            And that's if you still don't remember that each of the six (five and a half - if you count the diesel T-80 as half) of the main models of the USSR MBT had three or four modifications - with different KUV, DZ and KAZ. In short, a logistical nightmare.
          6. dgonni
            dgonni 11 March 2021 12: 39
            0
            That yes :(. Well, the distribution of tanks by divisions shone with intelligence. 2 regiments for 64BV, and one for T-72B. Shine!
          7. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 March 2021 18: 03
            +1
            Quote: dgonni
            That yes :(. Well, the distribution of tanks by divisions shone with intelligence. 2 regiments for 64BV, and one for T-72B. Shine!

            Well, that's nothing - the same type of equipment, at least at the shelf level.
            Remember the tank brigades of 1941, which had a tank battalion of heavy and medium tanks and two battalions of light tanks in their tank regiment. Three types and three classes of tanks per regiment, and two of them are in one battalion ... belay
          8. dgonni
            dgonni 11 March 2021 19: 24
            0
            Well, I'm not that old to remember that. This is my late neighbor, starting at BT-5 under Halgingol on the western side at BT-7 and up to Prague. 7 tank burned down under him. But he survived.
            And that's how I found the union. Life left both the tanks and the navy.
            But when do they send you a mechanic drive from 72k to 64k? And this is, in fact, like one division. And you understand that you put him in a tank and don't move right away!
            Circus in this regard in the FGP also took place
          9. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 12 March 2021 10: 27
            +1
            Quote: dgonni
            But when do they send you a mechanic drive from 72k to 64k? And this is, in fact, like one division. And you understand that you put him in a tank and don't move right away!

            T is tradition. smile
            Arriving average commanders for the posts of radio units - wireworms and radio facilities in the majority do not know.
            © Report of the commander of the 11th MK, Major General Mostovenko.
            And my favorite is when those expelled from the party are sent to the posts of political instructors:
            For example, out of 8 people sent by the 45th rifle division on the post of company deputy commanders for political affairs 6 have negative characteristics:
            Ml. political instructor R. - in December 1940 expelled from the candidates of the CPSU (b);
            (...)
            From the 8th Panzer Division arrived ml. political instructor B., expelled from the CPSU (b) District Party Commission back in September 1940.
            © Report on the manning of the 20th division as of March 10, 1941
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 11 March 2021 00: 25
    +1
    With such a margin that pins had to be welded into the “Bulat” hodovka so that it would not sag, yeah. In fact, 64 was the weakest of the entire Soviet troika, partly leaving for the MSA
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 11 March 2021 12: 06
      0
      Well, what pins and where did they weld in? Or is it so easy to write a thread?
  • ironic
    ironic 10 March 2021 21: 48
    +1
    And what else can be placed there, besides a cannon and a machine gun? And besides the three armchairs, is there still a passage to them? And where is this long column to do if the battle is not in an open field? And how quickly does it go from one target to another?
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 10 March 2021 14: 47
    +6
    Quote: dgonni
    The 152mm workings remained in Kharkov!
    As for loading and layout!

    And what about our T-95 (object 195), which has undergone a full test cycle, with a 152 mm cannon? was the gun manually loaded?
    Quote: dgonni
    When working out, the unmanned turret brought an overwhelming amount of problems.
    How did it become unmanned if there were a commander with a gunner in it?
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 10 March 2021 14: 56
      +1
      I unsubscribed! There is an interesting system. The undergrowth forced to put screens. Working out 152mm in my opinion was carried out on 80ke!
      For chassis 80ki 152 was redundant! But the recoil of the weapon and general concepts, in principle, in my opinion, skated on it. In terms of tank ballistics, the weapon came to the boxer well-rounded!
  • PROXOR
    PROXOR 10 March 2021 14: 25
    +1
    It is. It only needs to be brought up to date in the context of current computer modeling and materials science. Let me remind you that there is an object 120 with a 152mm gun.
  • vadim dok
    vadim dok 10 March 2021 15: 38
    +1
    Why be ashamed - take the 283mm cannon!
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 10 March 2021 18: 15
      0
      Well, you can exaggerate! I no longer remember the name of the person who on the training ground on two fingers spread out for the caliber and penetration
      In my opinion, from the GRAU gunners!
      There was a big howl at the table. He called the adbutant and showed the table!
      After that, only a 152 mm gun went to the Boxer / Hammer.
      If on your fingers?
      In typical combat situations with the same hit probability? The 152mm round penetrated a typical NATO tank with an 87-92 percent probability!
      125mm standard gun from 55 to 62.
      At the same time, 152mm inflicted critical damage by the hit itself, taking out the chassis and transmission on clean energy.

      BC was critically small! Fact!
      1. ironic
        ironic 10 March 2021 21: 30
        0
        How about charging it? And how much ammunition will fit? And what will have to donate?
  • Sidor Amenpodestovich
    Sidor Amenpodestovich 10 March 2021 12: 29
    +3
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    I would not be surprised if the Germans develop their weapon and put it on the tank before they form the first sufficient unit based on "aromas".

    Which tank? MGCS?
    An excerpt from an article published on VO 12.11.18/XNUMX/XNUMX
    According to the plans of KNDS, the main development work on the program of the Main Ground Combat System will start in 2019 year. By the middle of the decade, the designers will complete the design, and then an experienced tank of a new model will be built. The first half of the thirties will be spent on tests, refinement and preparation for future mass production. Thus, the stage of research and development work in total will take about two decades, if you count from the moment of the formation of the joint venture.

    Or do you have information that work on this tank has accelerated tremendously? Or did you mean one gun on one tank?
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 10 March 2021 13: 06
      -11%
      I mean our long-term construction in the "modern" tank building!
    2. mvg
      mvg 10 March 2021 14: 10
      +3
      Which tank? MGCS?

      Yes, a 130/140 mm gun was put on both the Leopard and Leclerc ... if that.
      https://naukatehnika.com/v-germanii-predstavili-tank-leopard.html
      1. lucul
        lucul 10 March 2021 20: 58
        -2
        Yes, a 130/140 mm gun was installed on both the Leopard and Leclerc ...

        So they bet that they had to develop a new 130mm gun? )))
        1. mvg
          mvg 10 March 2021 21: 03
          +1
          did you have to develop a new 130mm gun?

          This weapon was presented in 2016 at the Eurosatory exhibition in Paris.

          https://naukatehnika.com/130-mm-gladkostvolnaya-tankovaya-pushka-rheinmetall.html
          naukatehnika.com
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  • tikhonov66
    tikhonov66 10 March 2021 12: 34
    -1
    "... Well, that mythical battalion that some people watch in the morning when it leaves for the training ground, I do not consider
    ..."
    - Well - why ONLY "do not count" something ?!
    To have a carouse - so to have a carouse!
    - Simply - I DO NOT SEE STOPPING! Well, like NOT him - that's all. Don't believe your eyes ...
    This is the right approach!

    - That is the case of cartoons and promises of "shitty geyropa" !!!
    here is THIS - "I believe" IMMEDIATELY!
    - Well, like, it's enough just to say - And I swear by my "German mother" ... - and that's it ... And quite enough ...
    Already I BELIEVE. For the GEYROPIAN word is TRUE by definition ...
    8-))
    - ABOUT! - licked the gayrope - so REALLY LICKED!
    MA-LA-DETZ. - Take a pie from the shelf.
    9-)))
  • Your stranger
    Your stranger 10 March 2021 12: 24
    -1
    I wonder if it is possible to put a new tower with that weapon on leopards, leclercs, abrams, and challengers
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 10 March 2021 12: 27
      +5
      Yes, you can. On this and the calculation.
      Experimental Challenger 2 armed with a 130-mm Rheinmetall cannon:

      1. Flooding
        Flooding 10 March 2021 12: 41
        +1
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Experimental Challenger 2 armed with a 130-mm Rheinmetall cannon:

        As an experiment, and on the T-34 set 100mm.
        This does not mean that the sample successfully passed all the tests and the experiment was a success.
        1. NDR-791
          NDR-791 10 March 2021 12: 57
          -2
          In any case, we have completed these developments a long time ago and they are in the tables until better times, I think so. maybe it will be possible to put on the Armata (and not even necessarily on everything), but as I understand it, they will first figure it out with the engine.
          Attempts to introduce 152 mm guns on domestic tanks
          The first tank with an 152-mm LP-83 gun was the “292 Object” of the Leningrad Kirov Plant and the Transmash Research Institute, created on the basis of the T-80BV tank. Due to the financial difficulties of the end of the 1980 and the beginning of the 1990, in the autumn of 1990, only a single prototype tank was created. In 1991, tests began with test firing, during which a significant superiority of the 152-mm cannon was revealed compared to the main tank cannon in the 125 caliber mm 2-46. In particular, this concerned a larger one and a half times shot pulse with an approximately equal rollback of the gun, which allowed, without significant modifications, to install the gun on the T-80BV tanks, significantly increasing their firepower.
          However, in the 1990s, due to the underfunding of the armed forces, the 292 Object did not pass all tests. In the future, the 152 mm LP-83 gun should have been used on the 477 Object Hammer, and its equivalent, the 152 mm 2 83 gun, on the 195 Object Black Eagle.
          “The 477 object” The Hammer did not receive development due to the unfortunate location of the ammunition and was soon closed.
          For the “195 Object” “Black Eagle”, a new 9А2 cannon with a 83 mm caliber was created at the Ekaterinburg Plant No. XXNX. The first tests of the gun 152А2 took place on the tracked platform B-65, where it showed the same high results as the LP-2. The direct shot range was 83 m, armor penetration - 4 mm of homogeneous steel, which exceeded 83А5100. However, in the 1024 year, the work on the “2 Object” “Black Eagle” was stopped in favor of the new universal armor platform “Armata”.


          2А83 on a B-4 gun carriage during trials
          1. NDR-791
            NDR-791 10 March 2021 12: 58
            +2
            Prospects for implementation and options for using the gun 2А83 on the tank T-14
            It is quite safe to say that a variant of the T-14 tank with the 152-mm gun will be created. As early as February 2016, the T-14 military acceptance procedure began, including the version with the 152-mm gun. Rosatom's specialists are already working on the creation of super-powerful explosive sub-caliber shells of caliber 152 mm from depleted uranium.
            The problem of the low amount of ammunition in the 152-mm version of the tank can be solved by placing additional shells in the turret niche.
            Since the T-14 has its own radar station (radar), in the 152-mm version of the tank is proposed the use of guided projectiles such as "Krasnopol". In this scenario, the T-14 is more like the SAU than the tank, so it is possible that the 152-mm version of the T-14 in the documentation will have the abbreviation "Combat Artillery Machine" (BAM).
            From the above, we can conclude that the main weapon for the T-14 tank will remain the 125-mm 2-82-1-gun. With a 152 caliber mm 2A83 gun, a limited series of tanks will be produced - to perform narrower tasks as part of a tank group. The scenario of using 152-mm guided projectiles is possible when destroying enemy fortifications, delivering high-precision strikes on armored vehicles or enemy air defense systems over a range of 20 km or more (the Krasnopol 2K25 projectile allows this). Therefore, the T-14 tank with the 152-mm cannon will not be the main version of the tank on the Armata platform, but will serve as a highly specialized fire support vehicle.
          2. Flooding
            Flooding 10 March 2021 12: 59
            0
            Quote: NDR-791
            I think so. maybe it will be possible to put on the Armata

            I am sure that it was created with an eye on a gun of a larger caliber
            1. NDR-791
              NDR-791 10 March 2021 13: 18
              +1
              Quote: Flood
              I am sure that it was created with an eye on a gun of a larger caliber

              And so it is because the 72nd and 64th on which the weak bases were tested.
          3. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 10 March 2021 14: 58
            +1
            Quote: NDR-791
            For "Object 195" "Black Eagle" ...........

            "Black Eagle" is object 640 from Omsk
          4. dgonni
            dgonni 10 March 2021 18: 48
            -1
            A bit wrong! At the 80th St. Petersburg for the Hammer, the gun was rolled in!
            Under the Hammer, a plant was built in Kharkov in the 80s and early 90s. Destroyed in the 2000s!
            Pre-production copies more
            rolled in the 2000s on the ranges!
            Armata? Smiled!
          5. dgonni
            dgonni 10 March 2021 21: 56
            -1
            At 80k, a solution was tested with impulse, rollback and rollback of the gun. Neither MZ nor AZ was there at all! It didn't fit in any way!
            There was a question in the fundamental decision of the possibility of installing a gun of this caliber on a tank!
            Once again for the apologists for the exclusiveness of Armata!
            A plant was under construction in Kharkov under the Hammer!
            Pre-production copies are still on the KBCM!
            The hammer was made on 3 types of chassis! 64 GBTU scored 72 as well as expensive. The last option was on the running 80ki.
            But again, the semi-support and long suspension is not a fountain.
            And the presence of titanium in huge quantities made it golden even in the realities of the union!
            Although I personally kept the instructions for it in my hands in 92 it seems like. They were already expected in the Kharkov school!
            The union collapsed but not our fault.
        2. Your stranger
          Your stranger 10 March 2021 12: 59
          -1
          But from 76 to 85 caliber in t 34 was raised
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 10 March 2021 13: 07
            +2
            Quote: Stranger
            But from 76 to 85 caliber in t 34 was raised

            caliber 76mm was not the limit for the chassis and was considered satisfactory for the task at that time.
            but the 85mm gun turned out to be the limiting one for the design decisions and the safety factor incorporated in the tank.
            we do not have such information about modern western tanks. time will tell. now one thing is clear - an increase in caliber will lead to a significant reduction in ammunition storage while maintaining dimensions.
            1. Your stranger
              Your stranger 10 March 2021 13: 48
              -1
              But we do not know how much will be the limit for a leopard and so on.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 10 March 2021 14: 02
                0
                Quote: Stranger
                But we do not know how much will be the limit for a leopard and so on.

                Maybe modern Western tanks will pull 130 or even 140 mm, but only at least some booking in excess of the existing one is no longer there, or even the existing one will have to be reduced.
                1. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 10 March 2021 15: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Maybe modern Western tanks will pull 130 or even 140 mm, but only at least some kind of booking in excess of the existing one is no longer there, .....
                  The problem is different: who will load the gun? 130mm - the loading unitar will still pull, but larger calibers are unlikely. It is necessary to introduce either separate loading, with an appropriate rate of fire, or install a machine gun. And here only Leclerc is ready for this.
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 10 March 2021 15: 43
                    0
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    The problem is different: who will load the gun? 130mm - the loading unitar will still pull, but larger calibers are unlikely.

                    There is no such problem, do not come up with it. There are AZ and 130 mm and 140 mm and 155 mm. France, Germany, Israel, USA, etc.
                    1. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 10 March 2021 15: 44
                      +1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      There is no such problem, do not come up with it. There are AZ and 130 mm and 140 mm and 155 mm.

                      And where are they?
                      1. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik 10 March 2021 16: 18
                        +2
                        There are no 130-140 mm tank guns in the series. There are a lot of prototypes. Leclerc and Leopard with 140 mm and AZ in my post below, Challenger with 130 mm and AZ in the post above.
                        Here is an Abrams with an XM291 smoothbore gun and an XM91 autoloader


                        ACS with AZ 152/155 mm pile, fully automatic and partially. For example, Archer.

                        AZ is a simple mechanism, implemented in the 60-70s of the last century. In general, no developed country has a breakdown with it. But AZ, in addition to its advantages, has significant disadvantages, so it is not put on a part of equipment or semi-automatic mechanisms are used.
                      2. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 10 March 2021 19: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        AZ is a simple mechanism, implemented in the 60-70s of the last century.
                        Nevertheless, only ours (+ Chinese clones), the French on Leclerc and, almost a copy of it, on the South Korean K2 are in stock with machine guns on tanks.
                        The fact that everyone has development is about nothing. We need to talk about them when they go into the series. And self-propelled guns as examples of automatic cannon, as well as ship machine guns - as an example of tank automation are not suitable.
                2. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 10 March 2021 15: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  The problem is different: who will load the gun

                  This is not a big problem, at the cost of losing the rate of fire it is quite solvable, but the armor is no longer solvable, and even 125 mm tanks will be quite tough, so without a new tank 130-140 mm are meaningless, it seems to me.
              2. Alf
                Alf 10 March 2021 18: 32
                0
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                otherwise, you will have to subtract what is available.

                Why ?
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 11 March 2021 03: 11
                  0
                  Quote: Alf
                  Why ?

                  Elementary, the large mass of the implement, due to the much greater recoil, will put even more stress on the already overloaded front rollers. Actually, the mass of the main Western tanks has already crept up to reasonable limits, among other things.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 11 March 2021 15: 52
                    +1
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Quote: Alf
                    Why ?

                    Elementary, the large mass of the implement, due to the much greater recoil, will put even more stress on the already overloaded front rollers.

                    They will add another pair of skating rinks, they added the same to the T-14 and the skies did not crack.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    got to reasonable limits

                    And how much is the reasonable limit? 60 tons, 70, 80, so there is no particular difference. The railway platform still does not lift more than 60 tons, but to make a special one, it is all the same already, under 70 or under 80 tons. Bridges are also all the same, more than 60-tonne in Europe, one hell is not.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 11 March 2021 17: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Alf
                      They will add another pair of skating rinks, they added the same to the T-14 and the skies did not crack
                      For a minute, we're talking about Abrams and Leo-2, what pair of skating rinks are there? A pair of rollers is a new tank, as well as the T-14.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Maybe they can pull modern Western tanks

                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      so without a new tank


                      Quote: Alf
                      60 tons, 70, 80 - there is no big difference anymore
                      Well there is no way.
              3. ironic
                ironic 10 March 2021 21: 26
                +1
                Most modern tank models were originally designed with a reserve of turrets for replacing the gun with a larger caliber. As for the armor, then further it is only technologies to increase its durability.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 11 March 2021 03: 13
                  0
                  Quote: ironic
                  Most modern tank models were originally designed with a reserve of turrets for replacing the cannon with a larger caliber.

                  Where does this nonsense come from? With a stretch Leclerc can be substituted, but not Abrams and Leo. And the demonstrators do not count; the T-34 was also equipped with a 100 mm cannon.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 11 March 2021 15: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    With a stretch Leclerc can be substituted, but not Abrams and Leo. And the demonstrators do not count; the T-34 was also equipped with a 100 mm cannon.

                    And on the next model, on the T-54, they stuck a weave, the armor was strengthened so strongly, and the weight increased by only 9%. Abrams also grew heavier during his service from 54 tons to 63 tons.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 11 March 2021 17: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Alf
                      The T-34 also had a 100 mm cannon.

                      And on the next model, on the T-54, a weave was stuck, the armor was strengthened so strongly, and the weight increased by only 9%
                      Even formally, the T-34 was followed by the T-44 - a completely NEW tank.

                      Quote: Alf
                      Abrams also grew heavier during his service from 54 tons to 63 tons.
                      The fact that 105 mm was replaced by 120 in the course?
                    2. Alf
                      Alf 11 March 2021 17: 28
                      0
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      The fact that 105 mm was replaced by 120 in the course?

                      In the course, in the course. The weight has grown, especially none of this problem did. For the fact that the weight slipped past the standard standard, no one was worried either.
                    3. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 12 March 2021 03: 29
                      0
                      Quote: Alf
                      In the know, in the know.
                      And do you think 130-140 mm can be crammed into the same calculated tower as 105 mm?
                      Quote: Alf
                      especially none of this problem did not
                      Well, yes, well, yes, no one at all:
                      The increase in its mass limits the tank's tactical transportability. M1A2 SEPv3 cannot be transported using modern evacuation vehicles, tactical [army collapsible] bridges or tractors
                      - think Pentagon leadersresponsible for testing the tank.

                      The fact is that bridges and roads simply cannot withstand its mass ... ... As a result, the military leaders responsible for the modernization of the US tank forces, as reported by the American media, are skeptical about the new Abrams. They are inclined to recognize it as incapable of tactical use in Europe. Moreover, according to journalists, some suggest abandoning the Abrams M1A2 altogether, calling it a "stupid mastodon"

                      Just nobody at all!
                      To hell with them with bridges, they are already afraid of the roads!
                  2. Alf
                    Alf 11 March 2021 17: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Even formally, the T-34 was followed by the T-44 - a completely NEW tank.

                    Thicker armor on all sides, a more powerful weapon, the weight remained the same ...
                  3. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 12 March 2021 03: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Alf
                    Thicker armor on all sides, more powerful weapon, the weight remains the same
                    A fundamentally different layout of the MTO, weight distribution, a fundamentally different suspension do not bother you in any way?
            2. ironic
              ironic 13 March 2021 02: 18
              0
              Both Leopard and Challenger 2 and Abrams and Merkava initially assumed the possibility of placing large lalibre cannons. This is nonsense when such an opportunity is not included in the project. Moreover, Merkava and Leoprad expected the possibility of as much as 140mm with separate charging.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 13 March 2021 06: 05
                0
                Quote: ironic
                Both Leopard and Challenger 2 and Abrams and Merkava initially assumed the possibility of placing large lalibre cannons.
                Where do these fairy tales come from? Okay, Leopard can still be believed, but the rest of them have raised the caliber to 120 mm and that's it. The rest of the reserve for strengthening the protection is gone, well, and about the Merkava, it's not even a fairy tale but some kind of stupidity.
              2. ironic
                ironic 14 March 2021 18: 47
                0
                It is known for certain about the 140mm option on the 4th. Refused due to separate charging. And the weight of a unitary for manual loading turned out to be generally prohibitive. But the turret was built for a 140mm gun.
              3. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 15 March 2021 03: 28
                0
                Quote: ironic
                It is known for certain about the 140mm option on the 4th.
                Do you know? Share your evidence.
                Quote: ironic
                Refused due to separate charging. And the weight of a unitary for manual loading turned out to be generally prohibitive.
                Haha, they already wrote about 100 mm in the T-34 turret, the same meaning is in the supposedly adapted Merkava turret.
              4. ironic
                ironic 15 March 2021 18: 10
                0
                / / / /
                And of course that 140mm gun was also supposed to be mounted on a Merkava 4 tank, but that was canceled obviously.
                / / / /
                For Abrams was also tested and also refused.

                I just didn't understand the second phrase.
              5. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 16 March 2021 04: 17
                0
                Quote: ironic
                And of course that 140mm gun was also supposed to be mounted on a Merkava 4 tank, but that was canceled obviously.
                Is this a murky comment as evidence? But. Bring an article, at least some.
                Quote: ironic
                I just didn't understand the second phrase.
                Yes, judging by the rating, and not surprising.
              6. ironic
                ironic 16 March 2021 21: 24
                -1
                For example :
                https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/issues/2015/jan_mar/Elmonairy.html

                Judging by the ratings of many generalissimos here, thousands of likes were given to clowns and complete zombies, it is not surprising that poking your face into this fact will cause a corresponding stream of minuses. It would be a shame if these minusers gave me pluses. That would be offensive.
              7. ironic
                ironic 16 March 2021 21: 35
                -1
                Here's another read, not from heaven:
                https://www.satworld.org/t33673-topic
              8. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 17 March 2021 03: 24
                0
                But Israel Military Industries (IMI) have been requested to develop a 140mm APFSDS shell for the Swiss 140mm L47 gun program for their Leopard.
                ..... has been cooperating with Switzerland with the purpose of mounting the 140mm gun on the (then in development) Merkava 4 in case NATO decided to adopt a new caliber.
                Not many may know but when the designers of Merkava 4 talked about modularity, they were not only speaking about the armor

                But the gun did not come out of the testing stage, only the barrel and the projectile were fired for ballistics.
                It is emphasized that the Swiss 140-mm smoothbore cannon is currently a test gun and has not yet been fully developed, and if we take into account the threat reduction since the conception of this gun, then it is likely that it will not be put into operation in the foreseeable future.
              9. ironic
                ironic 17 March 2021 18: 21
                0
                That's right, the development was canceled, for the reasons I voiced, but the tower was counted on for an option, which I was actually talking about, and what are you talking about?
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 10 March 2021 14: 17
    +4
    Leclerc was originally designed for 140 and 120 mm cannon. On the Leopard 140 mm was installed. There are no particular problems. An automatic loader is installed with a 130-140 mm cannon. On Leclerc AZ there is also for 120 mm.
    In my opinion, it will not go into the series. It makes no sense. There are already a lot of anti-tank weapons, and it is very expensive to introduce a new standard for ammunition.

    1. Alf
      Alf 10 March 2021 18: 34
      0
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      It makes no sense. There are already a lot of anti-tank weapons, and it is very expensive to introduce a new standard for ammunition.

      But what will be a high-explosive action ... good
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 10 March 2021 19: 06
      +1
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      On the Leopard 140 mm was installed. There are no particular problems. An automatic loader is installed with a 130-140 mm cannon.

      on 140mm on the Leopard, information is too scarce to judge how problem-free this option turned out to be.
      I didn’t find anything on this prototype.

      PS
      found on the English site
    3. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 22
      -1
      The Merkava 140 was also created for the ability to put up to 4mm, therefore such a huge tower, but the problem is that then only separate charging, and this is too stressful in battle. I no longer talk about the option of a 140mm machine with a unitary one because it comes out gold and takes up space. How many of these will be able to fit into the automatic loader? But the intermediate 130mm looks still acceptable.
  • Alf
    Alf 10 March 2021 18: 31
    +2
    Quote: Flood
    but the 85mm gun turned out to be the limiting one for the design decisions and the safety factor incorporated in the tank.

    A 34-mm LB-100 cannon was stuffed into an experienced T-1, everything was almost normal, although the springs of the front rollers were "very unhappy" with such a "gift".
  • dgonni
    dgonni 10 March 2021 22: 02
    +2
    At the end of the 44th beginning of the 45th, they stuck the tower and a hundred square meters at the limit of the linear diameter.
    The question is that the chassis did not stupidly hold.
    Overloading the front rollers was off the charts.
    44ka also did not stretch.
    Here is Morozov and created a masterpiece in the form of 54/55. Eternal pancake tank!
    Simple like Kalash.
  • ironic
    ironic 10 March 2021 21: 28
    +1
    It is possible, they were designed immediately for the option of installing more powerful guns.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 10 March 2021 12: 51
    0
    Germany will create a 130-mm cannon for a promising MGCS tank "capable of withstanding the Russian T-14 Armata"

    Has it already happened ... or have they already done it and all that remains is to paint it?
    1. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 17
      +1
      Armata what?
  • Evil 55
    Evil 55 10 March 2021 12: 53
    +1
    Wouldn't the "tolerant" unitars be swollen around the tower to carry this toy for this?
    1. Kurare
      Kurare 10 March 2021 12: 59
      +6
      Quote: Angry 55
      Wouldn't the "tolerant" unitars be swollen around the tower to carry this toy for this?

      Judging by the information about this project, there will be AZ / MZ.
    2. Crimean partisan 1974
      Crimean partisan 1974 10 March 2021 13: 11
      -5
      Wouldn't the "tolerant" unitars be swollen around the tower to carry this toy for this?
      ...... they will add another loader .. there will be two leaky ones ... gaster with vnau for 1000 marks a month will easily tear their butts
  • knn54
    knn54 10 March 2021 13: 02
    -4
    Dynamic protection "Malachite", resistant to ANY anti-tank ammunition of caliber up to 150 mm.
    1. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 15
      0
      Let them first demonstrate how resistant it is to the cannon of Anglican tanks, and then we will look at the German ones.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 10 March 2021 13: 03
    +4
    The Germans have long been playing their subtle, far-reaching game - even now their romantic cooperation with the French can be explained by the sequence of moves in this game, and the very design of such a product - Germany wants to gradually squeeze the US out of Europe and take the security of the EU into its own hands - even if in an alliance with the eternal European opponents. It is not stupid people who are sitting there who understand that Europe will not survive either the next world conflict affecting its territory, or the prolonged position of a forced game on the American economic field. The line of benefits for the EU and the US has diverged dramatically for 20 years now, and the dynamics of this indicates that this gap is growing. We have to do something about this - so they are doing, calmly and systematically preparing the ground for a future European army instead of a bloated and abstract NATO.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 10 March 2021 14: 50
      -2
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      The line of benefits for the EU and the US has been diverging a lot for 20 years
      20? For the last 20 years, Europeans can at least do something against ... while thinking and even ... planning ...
      And so - in 1945 it was already clear to whom where what is profitable.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 10 March 2021 15: 16
        +1
        While the USSR was alive, the United States was not linked to the issues of defense and security - the issues of doing business by European states. And for this reason, such things as the sale of a nuclear reactor to Libya or elements of Bull's super-powerful ballistic weapon to the same Iraq were quite normal. In fact, the "deal of the century" with gas pipes for the USSR also did not provoke a batthert from the United States. Europe was free to conduct business and business, to trade in weapons and technologies within a very wide range, the Americans understood that if the screws were twisted, then the De Gaulle's variant, which is called a "knight's move", could happen, and the USSR would only play into its hands. After the collapse of the USSR, this line continued for some time, maybe up to Yugoslavia, maybe up to 9/11, it's hard to say, but at some point the United States began to often click a whip and say - so, we don't sell this, we don't do business with these, here it is impossible, it should not be. And every year, as the "axis of evil" expanded and US sanctions-operations expanded, the issues of solidarity of restrictions also expanded. Europe was doing quite well with Gaddafi and Hussein and Assad, and now there is what is called ashes and refugees - and all this should naturally infuriate their authorities more and more.

        True, so far events are developing very slowly, because no one wants to be the first to go under the tractor on the one hand, on the other hand, the EU is bloated, and the prospect of breaking the defense alliance with the United States may cause a crisis or even a split in the EU. So they act extremely delicately, which is called summing up the letter.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 10 March 2021 15: 53
          -1
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          The United States did not link it to defense and security issues - the issues of European government business.
          Security? Sales markets were interesting to them!
          All Nata is for the protection of trade and ... robbery.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          or elements of a super-powerful Bull ballistic weapon for the same Iraq
          This is ridiculous: the maximum it can do is to launch light satellites (theoretically strong) and scare the neighbors.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          Yes, in fact, the "deal of the century" with gas pipes for the USSR - also did not cause a batthert from the United States.
          Until normal technologies with LNG were pulled up, it was possible. Now there is something and how to transport and store.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          but at some point, the United States began to often click a whip and say, so, we don't sell this, we don't do business with these, this is not allowed, this should not be
          The lobby has always been there. The first 20 years after the war - so the Europeans did not have their own opinion, in fact, in foreign policy.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          And every year, with the expansion of the "axis of evil" and the expansion of American sanctions-operations, the questions of solidarity of restrictions also expanded.
          The problem is not in the collapse of the USSR, but in the fact that the globe is over.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          Europe was doing quite well with Gaddafi and Hussein and Assad, and now there is what is called ashes and refugees - and all this should naturally infuriate their authorities more and more.
          Here, too, one can argue: they entered the country on business (pumping oil), but wanted more. And the struggle for oil democracy began. Bribes are cheaper than taxes. And the consequence of the war is anarchy.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          on the other hand, the EU has bloated a lot, and the prospect of breaking the defense alliance with the United States could cause a crisis or even a split in the EU
          Once again: Nata is a structure for protecting trade and sales markets!
          As a consequence of the end of the globe, the current events take place:
          - Globe for the EEC, USA and China is not enough,
          - the United States unleashes wars to reduce the tax burden and simplify access to resources,
          - Bonus to the previous point - refugees in the EEC who undermine the economy,
          - The UES, not getting proper access to the feeding trough (plundered resources and sales markets), are beginning to look for alternatives.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          So they act extremely delicately, which is called summing up the letter.
          Do you think they themselves have no influence agents? Otherwise, the same refugees in the camps rotted away from old memory.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 14 March 2021 20: 08
            0
            The United States unleashes wars to reduce the tax burden and improve access to resources,

            Such “concepts” arise from the peculiarities of our economy, where most of the budget revenues come from the sale of hydrocarbons. (So ​​everyone is also interested only in oil and gas).
            In the USA, it is only 10% of exports.
            Most of this is automobile and mechanical engineering, nuclear energy, chemistry, agriculture.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 14 March 2021 22: 12
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              Such “concepts” arise from the peculiarities of our economy, where most of the budget revenues come from the sale of hydrocarbons.
              This misunderstanding arises from the limited thinking.

              Quote: 3danimal
              In the USA, it is only 10% of exports.
              It depends on how you look at it. Who owns the lion's share of PI production?
              In addition, their transport is so bad that it is easier to take out (sell) from the Pacific coast, and load (buy) in the Atlantic.

              Quote: 3danimal
              Most of this is automobile and mechanical engineering, nuclear energy, chemistry, agriculture.
              Do you know what it's called? Highly processed goods.
              I'm only FOR if we come to this.
      2. ironic
        ironic 10 March 2021 21: 13
        +1
        History does not repeat itself. Scientifically proven.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 10 March 2021 23: 53
          0
          Repeats. Only at first it is a tragedy, and then a comedy ... or vice versa.
          1. ironic
            ironic 13 March 2021 02: 15
            0
            This philosophical fake for suckers has long been a reason for ridicule.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 13 March 2021 05: 10
              0
              Quote: ironic
              This philosophical fake for suckers has long been a reason for ridicule.
              Ага.
              Literally, of course not, but the spirit of the statement is as it is: the first defeat of Napoleon is the tragedy of the nation, the second is a pattern.
              1. ironic
                ironic 14 March 2021 18: 49
                0
                Those. sucked out of the thumb for another thesis of sour cabbage soup? Lowers.
                Such pseudoscientific explanations have corrupted the credibility of many truly scientific discoveries.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 14 March 2021 22: 03
                  0
                  Quote: ironic
                  Those. sucked from the finger
                  If we talk about literal quotations, you are absolutely right. If speak about...
                  Quote: ironic
                  History does not repeat itself. Scientifically proven.
                  ... it is better to believe Hegel.
                  How many Iraqi wars were there? And they attacked Russia / the USSR twice (however, it is not entirely appropriate here - this cycle of wars has been dragging on since Napoleonic times and has not yet ended, it seems)?
                  1. ironic
                    ironic 15 March 2021 18: 18
                    +1
                    You don't need to believe anyone, you need to know. No Iraqi war is a repetition of the previous one. It's the same with Russia and the USSR. PMV Russia lost miserably. Civil war is not a victory, but a disaster. The Napoleonic invasion was never repeated in Hitler's. How many wars has modern Israel fought? None is alike and the results are not the same. You can find some features hinting at similarity in historical cycles, but this is more homeomorphic than direct similarity. Everything is fine, of course, only Hegel's "pure thinking" is actually not accessible to man, the truth, in principle, is not comprehensible, and a semblance of objectivity is achieved only by statistical research, and then with an accuracy ...
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 16 March 2021 03: 59
                      0
                      Quote: ironic
                      No Iraqi war is a repetition of the previous one.
                      What are you trying to prove to me now? That there is no absolute repetition. I agree.
                      But if we take into account what Hegel said (and even how he was altered), everything fits together: the first time, WWI, Russia was trampled, the second time (WWII) had to be trampled on ... but it turned out differently ...
                      1. ironic
                        ironic 16 March 2021 21: 37
                        -1
                        Considering what Hegel said, it’s better not to take it into account. wink Convergence is obtained at infinity. lol
  • tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 10 March 2021 13: 35
    0
    For 152 mm, after 130 mm, will the blacks be subscribed from the USA?
    1. Alf
      Alf 10 March 2021 18: 36
      +2
      Quote: tralflot1832
      For 152 mm, after 130 mm, will the blacks be subscribed from the USA?

      The Arabs will be accommodated, for just that, whether the allowance should be paid to them? And in order not to jump out, they will tie pork on top of the hatches.
    2. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 12
      0
      And who will do that on the tank?
    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 14 March 2021 21: 29
      0
      130mm is long enough. And a unitary projectile is still possible.
  • Klingon
    Klingon 10 March 2021 13: 41
    +2
    Maybe a promising electrochemical weapon will be put on the Armata, there the caliber is the same, the whole chip is in a special explosive that ignites an electric arc. As a result, the power of shots with the same caliber will increase several times. But these are of course new technologies and all the related limitations.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 10 March 2021 14: 54
      +2
      Quote: Klingon
      which ignites the electric arc
      You will not believe! The Coalition has already.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 14 March 2021 20: 02
      0
      Not interested, a rail gun is better smile
      1. Klingon
        Klingon 14 March 2021 22: 21
        0
        will not work. a railgun requires tens of times more energy. Are you suggesting that Armatha carry a mini-power plant with him on the joint? In addition, in view of the high energy and speed of acceleration of the blank of the projectile, the guides will have to be changed after every five shots due to material wear.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 15 March 2021 00: 54
          0
          BAE Systems have a ready-made sample of the railgun, and there we are talking at least dozens of shots.
          1. Klingon
            Klingon 15 March 2021 09: 09
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            BAE Systems have a ready-made sample of the railgun, and there we are talking at least dozens of shots.

            Well, yes) BAE has, and the Chinese and Turks have. Ship options. Well 10 shots. Further, it is all the same to change the rails. What does it change? Well, the problem of energy supply has not gone anywhere, you will not put such a bandura on a tank. Easier and cheaper to push a laser onto a tank
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 10 March 2021 13: 54
    -3
    Flag in hand and a shell in the "breech". what If they decide to fight, let them learn to pronounce loudly and clearly "NATO kaput!"
    1. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 10
      0
      So they will work it out and sell it to everyone in NATO. Gesheftno? Undoubtedly.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 10 March 2021 14: 52
    -2
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Yes, yes ... The Germans do not know how to do anything: neither cars, nor household appliances, nor weapons ... Thank you - they opened our eyes to life. I'll go and write to a colleague in Germany (a former Kazakh German) if he wants to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?

    And about the pots "Zepter", ask which are brought from China and packed in boxes laughing
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 10 March 2021 15: 06
    +1
    Russia also announced that the 38th Research and Testing Institute of Armored Weapons and Equipment has released a report on the possibilities of upgrading the Armata T-14 tank with a new uninhabited turret and a more powerful cannon capable of delivering strikes with supersonic armor-piercing sub-caliber shells, volumetric explosion ammunition and even rockets operating on the principle of "fire - forget - fire again." laughing
    1. ironic
      ironic 10 March 2021 21: 11
      0
      The main thing is that it goes to the troops and does not turn out to be more expensive than the French Leclerc. wink
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 10 March 2021 16: 42
    0
    Quote: Gennady Fomkin
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Yes, yes ... The Germans do not know how to do anything: neither cars, nor household appliances, nor weapons ... Thank you - they opened our eyes to life. I'll go and write to a colleague in Germany (a former Kazakh German) if he wants to change his "bucket of nuts" for "Kalina" or "Grand"?

    And about the pots "Zepter", ask which are brought from China and packed in boxes laughing

    Do not minus anymore and there is nothing to argue with proofs and angry denials laughingDue to innate harm, I always liked to watch how stereotypes break down in people. For the observed themselves, this process is usually very painful and they prefer to return again to the bosom of their virtual world. 
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 10 March 2021 16: 45
    0
    Reality is already more absurd than fiction. And after all, someone still believes in this ...

    I'm thinking I can write a book "Loch is not a mammoth, rethinking ..." laughing
  • Maxwrx
    Maxwrx 10 March 2021 16: 53
    +1
    It's a pity the tables with comparative performance characteristics were not laid out. I've seen them. So the 130 mm cannon has no competitors. 140mm complicates the whole structure too much (not to mention the rate of fire), and 130mm does not require such significant modifications that you can even put it on a leopard 2.
  • ironic
    ironic 10 March 2021 21: 08
    +1
    When finished, buy the right to manufacture and replace 120mm with a Merkava.
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 11 March 2021 00: 19
    +1
    Too lazy to read everything, how many times was the T-14 buried in the comments?
  • Bogalex
    Bogalex 27 March 2021 20: 50
    0
    There is no strength to read everything below, especially since it is mainly about politics, not about weapons.
    But what I would really like to discuss with those who are "in the subject" is the choice of caliber.
    We have exaggerated 152 mm.
    Ten or twenty years ago in the West, everyone was talking about 140 mm.
    Today (not literally) the Germans have submitted 130.
    It is clear that there is a complex of contradictions between power, cost, ammunition load, operational complexity, production capabilities, etc. etc.
    So after all, there are available methods of how to choose the optimal caliber in modern conditions, or is everything based on the notorious finger rushing from floor to ceiling?