Betrayal of 1941: order not to defend the state border

The outbreak of the war, even after almost 80 years, remains a mysterious period in stories our country. It is difficult for a new generation to discern the truth amid the pile of numerous liberal myths and Western attempts to rewrite history. Therefore, we will repeat in a collective form the stories of military historians about the very first days of the Great Patriotic War.

In the first days of the war from June 22, 1941, the Nazis tank wedges struck in the direction of the armies of the 8th and 11th ("Betrayal 1941: the turmoil of the first days"), as well as the 4th and 5th ("Betrayal 1941: Was It or Not"). Let's try to trace what happened to other armies during these days of the Great Patriotic War. And to figure out why, along with the heroism of the above armies, historians write about treason and betrayal on the same days.

In addition to the 5th Army of the SWF, historians also point to the heroic efforts that were made near Przemysl by individual units of the Red Army. For example, the right-flank 99 Red Banner Division of the 26th Army.

One of this division was opposed by two or three Germans, who pressed it in this very sector.

Of books N.N. Inozemtsev's "Front Diary" (2005):

"The echoes of artillery cannon are heard: it is the Red Banner 99th division holding Przemysl from three German divisions."

Moreover, she threw the fascists back, across the San River. And it was with this Russian / Soviet division that the Fritzes could not do absolutely nothing. Regardless of the massive onslaught that they tried to unleash on these Red Army men. And even without looking at the numerous air attacks. As historians testify, in the very initial period, the offensive of the fascists against other units (divisions) of this army was not carried out.

In the first part of this cycle ("Betrayal 1941: the turmoil of the first days") we formulated the question:

"Was the Red Army really weaker than the Wehrmacht in everything?"

And to this question, with their actions and real heroism, those of its units formulated the answer - our armies and divisions, which in the very first days of the Great Patriotic War fell the main onslaught and all the might of the Hitlerite offensive.

And this answer is unequivocal

«No».

No quality the Wehrmacht had no superiority over Soviet servicemen.

And it is this answer, like nothing else, that highlights the contrast of the situation at the very beginning of the war. We are talking about a significant polarization, which some historians even call a serious catastrophe.

If the domestic armed forces, on which the horde of Germans pounced with all their might, repelled the battles successfully and heroically, then how did hundreds of thousands of servicemen end up in captivity?

How did it happen that the USSR lost vast territories, lost tanks and planes in huge numbers?

Mysterious 12th Army

Historians ask the following questions.

And how, for example, did the 12th Army fight?

And did the units of this army fought so heroically against the Nazis, which either did not come under the massive blow of the first days of the war, or, if they did, then under the attacks of a much lesser force?

Let's take a look at this very 12th Army. It was led at that time by General Pavel Grigorievich Ponedelin.

This army was located on the front from the border with Poland (south of Lvov region), two divisions (13th rifle corps) covered the passes of the Carpathians (border with Hungary). Further, the corps of the 12th Army were deployed to Bukovina along the length of the border line with Romania.

Experts point out, by the way, that on June 22, Hungary did not intervene in the war.

Of memories officer of the border troops Mikhail Grigorievich Padzhev "Through the whole war" (Notes of the border guard) (1972):

“Only on the second day after the German attack on the USSR, the Hungarian government was 'invited' to take part in the war against the Soviet Union.

This explains that in the sector of the 94th border detachment, most of the outposts of which were located on the border with Horthy Hungary, in the first days of the war the enemy did not take active action, although his troops were concentrated on the roads of Uzhoksky, Veretsky and Vyshkovsky passes.

Only five days laterwhen the Germans were already rushing to Lvov and Minsk, Hungarian troops crossed the bordery.

Historians note that on the first day of the war, divisions of the 12th Army raised the alarm and went to the defense of the lines from weapons and ammunition.

In the course of their movement to the forward positions, they were overtaken by enemy bombing.

However, the air formations, which were under the jurisdiction of the 12th Army, did not defend the air lines on June 22 and did not bomb the Germans, that is, did not take off at all. They were not ordered to defend their army units in the sky. No such order came that day from either the army commander or the army headquarters. Or did the commander (headquarters) of the 13th rifle corps, whose units were bombed by the enemy from the air, did not require air cover?

Thus, when the troops of the 12th Army entered the field positions, they practically did not undergo attacks on the ground: there were no attacks.

Triple evidence

Historians mention about the testimonies from the border guards of not one, but three border detachments at once (which guarded the Soviet borders south of Przemysl, and then along the Carpathian Mountains) that the first five days (that is, from June 22 to June 26), the Nazis did not take offensive actions.

Does this mean that on this entire extended section of the front (many hundreds of kilometers) on the 13th rifle corps, as well as on the division of its neighbor on the left flank - the units of the 26th army, there were simply no attacks and attacks from the German invaders?

Let's turn to documentary evidence.

Here is what N.N. Inozemtsev in his book "Front Diary" (24).

“There is nothing special at the border yet. Occasionally a light skirmish at the border guards, and so the war is not felt to any extent ...

Our division occupies a very large area - 60 km along the front.

In fact, we form small cover groups in critical areas; there is no solid line of defense.

But the Germans here, apparently, do not have great forces. "

Link

We are talking about the published diary entries (diaries and letters) of the artilleryman Nikolai Nikolaevich Inozemtsev. On the first day of the war, along with the artillery battery of the 192 rifle division, he was ordered to the position. And after a few days they received an incomprehensible order - to withdraw. As they explained to the Red Army men - the threat of a detour.

«Received the order to immediately withdraw and move through Streams to Drohobych.

Although the order was rather unexpected, we knew that things were bad near Lvov and there was a threat of encirclement ”.

They retreat after a little over three days (during which, according to testimony, no one stepped on these units and did not attack them at all) - this (according to Inozemtsev's recollections) on June 25, or rather on the night of the 26th. From the headquarters of the South-Western Front, no order was received for the retreat of the 12th Army. But it was from the headquarters of the corps.

«Ordered to move mountains, by the shortest way to Stream, and then to Borislav. "

“There is no information about the Germans. A calm, normal life is going on ...

The retreat is going along the entire front. "

"June 28. At 5 o'clock in the afternoon we get further withdrawal order».

Link

According to the recollections of the border guards from the outpost at Veretsky Pass, they were removed from the outpost by order of the rifle corps headquarters. That is, there was a written order.

"By the evening of June 26 by order of the commander 13th Infantry housing Major General N.K. Kirillova and our 94th frontier detachment, never coming into contact with the enemy, began to move away from the border».

Link

It is curious that from the very first day of the war, Ukrainian nationalists very actively helped the Nazis, they harmed the border guards from the rear, cutting off telephone lines.

"The bandits from organizations of Ukrainian nationalists cut wires, damaged telephone nodes. This prevented timely transmission of the necessary orders, clarification of the situation in certain areas. "

Link

A German leaflet that reads “The German (read: European Union) Army will provide you a quiet job for a brighter and brighter future. Work the same, Ukrainians! " 1941 Source: topwar.ru

After the war, documents were found showing how the border guards of neighboring detachments entered the battle and met the enemy.

Here is what Major Tselikov, Chief of Staff of the 93rd Border Detachment (neighbor on the right flank), wrote in a report:

“From 22 to 26 June 1941, the detachment continued to guard and defend the 177-kilometer section of the border.

The enemy did not show active hostilities in the guarded area.

On the night of June 27, by order, the detachment departed from the border. "

Link

Situation on the site of a neighbor from the left flank (95th border detachment):

"From 22 to 26 June, the detachment's sector is calm."

Link

The third certificate is Colonel-General of the Technical Troops of the Soviet Army, a participant in the Great Patriotic War, Pavel Alekseevich Kabanov.

He then served as the commander of the 5th railway brigade of the Special Corps of Railway Troops.

Outlined by P.A. Kabanov his testimony in his book "Steel Ferries" (1973). Then, on duty, he interacted with the 13th rifle corps.

"On June 24, I was in Zbarazh again."

On the same day, June 24, 1941 (tells P.A.Kabanov) the chief engineer of the corps, Colonel F.N. Doronin entered the office and said:

“Just from Ternopil. I was there at the headquarters of the Southwestern Front.

Colonel Korshunov, head of the VOSO district, summoned me.

Your brigade operates in the zone of the 12th and 26th armies.

The brigade is assigned ... border sections: State Border - Turka - Sambir and State Border - Lavochne - Stryi.

Your task is to protect these lines, and in case of withdrawal, destroy».

Link

A day later (June 25), the head of the Stryi branch of the movement A.I. Bogdanov entered evacuation orderbut it looked like provocation... And Kabanov asks to double-check the sources of this order. It turned out that it was definitely a provocation. There was no longer any connection with the higher authorities. And confidence that the order was received from the chief of the road - too.

P.A. Kabanov:

“You can't leave. Think: Stryi is a knot, through it trains go from the side of Przemysl, Khirov and Sambor. Ahead of us is the Sambir branch. All his people are in place.

So, let's leave our comrades in trouble. "

And then

“Bogdanov made the necessary inquiries, which confirmed my assumption:

order head of the road to evacuate the department fabricated by enemy scouts».

Link

German leaflet. 1941 Source: mirtesen.ru

The team of P.A. Kabanova in those days supervised the railway junctions in the south of the Lviv region: Sambor, Stryi, Turka, Drohobych, Borislav. According to the memoirs, on the morning of June 25, a detachment of railway explosives, arriving at the location of the headquarters of the 192 rifle division (part of the 13th rifle corps of the 12th army), wanted to receive and carry out orders to blow up. But they the headquarters were no longer found there... And they found only the Red Army men completing the withdrawal from previously defended positions.

“At dawn on June 25, P.A. Frolov with several fighters went on a railcar to the State Border to the headquarters of the 192nd Mountain Rifle Division. It was necessary to get an assignment from her command.

Everywhere the troops were withdrawn from their positions and went towards the Turk station.

The division headquarters was not there either.».

Link

Complete irresponsibility?

In the center is the captured Major General P.G. Ponedelin, commander of the 12th Army. And on the left: Major General N.K. Kirillov, commander of the 13th rifle corps. Uman, August 1941.

In the combat report of the 12th Army, which was posted online as an operational summary of the 12th Army Headquarters No. 04 / op by 7 o'clock on June 24, 1941 "On the state of the army's troops," Ponedelin reports:

«13th Rifle Corps - no information available».

Link

In addition, we present another declassified document on the situation with the transfer of information in Ponedelin's 12th Army, published on the Memory of the People website, dated July 23, 1941:

"Commanders of formations and units and their staffs show complete helplessness and irresponsibility to provide timely and comprehensive information on the condition of parts ".

Link

The order to leave the outpost and remove, in fact, the defense of the state border, apparently, was erroneous. Since the border guards of the outpost, who previously guarded the Veretsky Pass, after the departure again receive permission to return to the outpost. But now they meet the Nazis already on the descent from the pass.

The border guards drove the fascists out of the pass. But the Fritzes got there easily and simply, from the territory of Hungary, which had not yet entered the war, and also directly as a result of the "erroneous" order to retreat, which came from the corps.

Or was it not his order, but another sabotage of Ukrainian nationalists?

Well, and about the order from the then Kremlin - not to leave the Germans a single bottom or a tire.

Railway officer P.A. Kabanov recalls that the battalion commander reported:

“One hundred and ninety-sixth division ... received an order to withdraw to the Drohobych region.

A detachment of miners is allowed to set up a complete fence on the entire section from the State Border to Sambor. "

And further:

“Yesterday a detachment of miners received from the commander of the 192 rifle division strange written permission and plan for setting up a fence. "

"Why strange?"

“Instead of destroying large objects, he suggests make out two military dead end and destroy the communication line, and then only from the State Border to the Turk ”.

Link

In the very days when Soviet railway explosives were destroying the main facilities and life support depots, the Nazis bombarded the same border areas with their leaflets with threats of reprisals if something was destroyed before they arrived.

Hitler's leaflet. 1941 Source: topwar.ru

But the Germans, judging by the leaflets, seem to know that “their people” there (intentionally) leave important structures and communications intact for them ...

In the book by P.A. Kabanov, there is another episode about non-destroyed strategically important objects.

“I am the head of the warehouse,

The quartermaster said, worried. -

I can not give the fascists aviation petrol. You see, I can't!

If they don’t shoot me for this, then I’ll shoot myself in the forehead! ”

This time it was a question of a huge fuel storage, which was nevertheless blown up, but solely due to the demand of the head of this warehouse, which threatened to shoot himself if the facility refused to be liquidated.

On August 11, 2010, the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper published an article by S.G. Pokrovsky "Treason 1941", which indicates that

«the order of the headquarters of the Southwestern Front for the withdrawal of the 12th and 26th armies was received... It was worked out at the front headquarters at 21 o'clock in the evening 26 June.

И was subsequently declared unfounded.

Due to the fact that the troops the left-flank divisions of the 26th army and the right-flank 13th divisions of the 12th army were not subjected to pressure.

The front headquarters hastened.

But at the same time, he indicated to the 13th rifle corps exactly those lines of withdrawal to which the corps departed on its own accord on June 24-25».

Link

And if such an order of June 26, 1941 on the abandonment of positions by the military for no reason and without pressure from any enemy in the areas of the guarded state border still existed (and was not an organized sabotage of Ukrainian nationalists), then why did not follow any reaction?

И what separates this kind of allegedly erroneous wartime orders from the concept of "treason"?

We will consider the further fate of the surrendered 12th Army in the next part.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Nikolay293]

Interesting facts about the beginning of the war! There is a weak command and control of troops and no interaction with other units, aviation, due to the inexperience of the top commanding staff of the Red Army.

[RUSS]

Quote: Nikolay293

Interesting facts about the beginning of the war! There is a weak command and control of troops and no interaction with other units, aviation, due to the inexperience of the top commanding staff of the Red Army.

Well, and the commander-in-chief is still that strategist, Tsaritsyn initially proved this.

[Vladimir_2U]

The Wehrmacht did not have any qualitative superiority over the Soviet military personnel.

Garbage, at least superiority, and significant, was in the means and organization of communications, and at all levels! And this is the best reaction and much better interaction between the combat arms.

[vladcub]

Vladimir, this is clear to you and me, but for Madame Frolova the means of communication are secondary.

[mpr200]

No, it was in something else. The German army at that time was completely mobilized, its organizational structure was more perfect, at the time of the beginning of the war it was an active army with the greatest modern experience of a victorious war. All its structures have already worked as a functioning well-coordinated mechanism. As for the means of transportation and communication, the horse-drawn artillery in the Wehrmacht was full, as well as infantry on foot, armed with rifles. There were tracked-wheeled tractors, but in percentage terms, there were not so many horse-drawn tractors. Receiving and transmitting devices were far from being on all equipment, this is a myth. The question in general is how the Germans used what they had in their hands, and how ours. In the organizational structure of our troops and the German. In modern combat experience. And we didn’t have the same tanks with walkie-talkies - as few as it might seem.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mpr200

All its structures have already worked as a functioning well-coordinated mechanism.

Undoubtedly, this was achieved by communications delegates, pigeons and wire devices, especially in the offensive.

Quote: mpr200

Receiving and transmitting devices were far from being on all equipment, this is a myth.

On the one on which the radio is needed, on that one. The myth, moreover, is rather stupid, what the author wrote.

[Lex_163]

After all, it seems to be clearly stated comparing the military personnel. Not providing them. Their skills. Their physical health.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The Wehrmacht did not have any qualitative superiority over the Soviet military personnel.

Quote: Lex_163

After all, it seems to be clearly stated comparing the military personnel. Not providing them. Their skills. Their physical health.

What is clear to you? The Soviet servicemen and the VERMACHT are mentioned, the Wehrmacht was an army like that, and there is no army without support. It is incorrect to compare some servicemen, by the way it is not clear which ones, privates, platoon commissars or brigade commanders, with the ARMY, which means that the ARMY is compared with the ARMY.

[apro]

The Wehrmacht did not have any qualitative superiority over the Soviet military.

A very bold statement. And on management and communications? On transport security?

[perm23]

The Germans had an excellently organized interaction of all types of troops and reconnaissance and rear and aviation and tanks, artillery. well trained and trained troops. ... They knew where to strike, and knew how to organize a panic in the location of our troops. Most likely there was a betrayal among us.

[WHAT IS]

We will consider the further fate of the surrendered 12th Army in the next part.

Yes, on August 2, a significant part of the army was surrounded and fought heavy battles for 5 days. Separate groups fought until August 13, breaking through with weapons in their hands to the east, the encircled continued to go out to their own throughout August and early September , some went to the partisans. There was no order to surrender, Ponedelin was taken prisoner when they knocked out the tank on which he broke through.

[Richard]

In addition to the 5th Army of the South-Western Front, historians also point to the heroic efforts that were made near Przemysl by individual units of the Red Army. For example, the right-flank 99 Karsnoznamennaya division of the 26th Army.

Not Karsnoznamennaya, but the Red Banner
Although, to be precise, it was not Red Banner at the time described by the author, but became only on July 22, 1941, but this is also a minor oversight.

The first military unit, which became the Red Banner during the war, was the 99th Infantry Division (commander - Colonel Dementyev N.I.), which was awarded such a high award for the liberation of the city of Peremshlja from the Germans by the evening of June 23, 1941. The division held the city until June 27, after which it withdrew to the east on the orders of the command. By the end of the war, this unit accomplished many feats, received the rank of Guards, and began to be called the 88th Guards Zaporozhye Red Banner, Orders of Lenin, Suvorov and Bogdan Khmelnitsky Infantry Division. It is noteworthy that in 1940 this division was named the best in the Red Army, when it was commanded by the later infamous General A. Vlasov.

[Richard]

The 99th SD took Przemysl not alone, but together with the 133rd Mountain Rifle Regiment of the 72nd Rifle Division. It would also be nice to point this out.

The 26th Army, repelling the enemy's attempts to cover the right flank and rear, by 13 o'clock occupied the front: Sokolya, Zadvorets, the forest northeast of Butsuv, Przemysl, Bakhuv, Lipa Dolna, Dobra Shlyakhetska and further along the river. San.
The 99th Rifle Division with the 133rd Mountain Rifle Regiment of the 72nd Rifle Division captured Przemysl by 13 o'clock and occupied the line of Sokol, Godyn, Volya Lacka, Shekhine, Medyka, Przemysl, Bakhuv.
The 72nd Infantry Division takes up defensive positions on the line (suit) of Bahuv, Lipa Dolna, Dobra Shlyakhetska; by the end of the day, the division had withdrawn the 14th and 187th mountain rifle regiments to the Olshany, Ustishki Dolne line.
173rd Infantry Division - no changes.
link: Operational bulletin No. 05 By 20.00 24.6.41. THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE SOUTH-WESTERN FRONT. Tarnopol Appendix - Map 500 000

1. The army, repelling the enemy's attempts to cover the right flank and rear, by 13 o'clock occupies the front: Sokolya, Zadvorets, forest northeast of Butsuv, Przemysl, Bakhuv, Lipa Dolna, Dobra Shlyakhetska and further along the river. Sun unchanged.
2th Rifle Corps and 8th Fortified Area:
The 99th Rifle Division with the 133rd Mountain Rifle Regiment of the 72nd Mountain Rifle Division, holding back the offensive to one infantry division reinforced by tanks and artillery and opposing the outreach of its right flank, by 13 o'clock captured Przemysl and occupied the Sokol, Godyn line, Will Lacka, Shekhine, Medyka, Przemysl, Bahuv. Fights very well.
Division headquarters - Gusakuv.
The 72nd Mountain Rifle Division takes up defensive positions on the line (claim.) Bakhuv, Lipa Dolna, Dobra Shlyakhetska, further along the river. San do Manastezhets, as directed by the commander. Today it is assigned to the line of Olshany, Ustrzyki Dolne. In the morning, the 187th and 309th mountain rifle regiments are fighting with enemy units that have crossed into the Sedlisk areas and spread to Zhogatin, with the task of destroying them.
Division headquarters - Voitkova.

Chief of Staff of the Army Colonel Varennikov
Head of the Operations Department Colonel Stupnikov
link: Operational bulletin No. 05 K 15.00 24.6.41 SHTARM 26 Sambir. Application - Map 100

[Richard]

Also, together with the 99th and 72nd SD, the 92nd border detachment of the NKVD took direct part in the capture and defense of Przemysl.

“Directly the center of the city was liberated by the border guards of the 92nd PO NKVD. The invaders were most strongly entrenched in Five Corners Square. Machine guns fired from the windows of the four-story building as from embrasures. The border guards nevertheless made their way into this building. Komsomolets Shcherbitsky threw the enemy machine gunner out of the second floor window. Sergeant Major Malkov threw grenades at the Nazis who had settled in the basement. The guide Andreev with two border guards followed the dog, which unmistakably found the disguised submachine gunners. At 14.00, two enemy tanks appeared on the square, and our gunners arrived in time to shoot them.
special correspondent of "Pravda" D. Novoplyansky
link "Pravda" June 24.06.41, XNUMX

The battles for the city continued for quite a long time. Three times the Nazis captured it, and each time units of the glorious 99th and 72nd rifle divisions and border guards knocked them out again.
Our troops held Przemysl until they received an order to leave it.

[The leader of the Redskins]

By the way, Przemysl is OFFICIALLY the first city liberated from the Nazi invaders. 23.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX.

[bubalik]

received the 92nd border detachment of the NKVD.

It's good that you mentioned 92 VP.
,, until 12.00 on 22.6.1941, the detachment with its own forces held the line of the state border in stubborn battles
At 12-00 on 22.6.41, an order was received from the head of the troops to withdraw behind the line of the Red Army units
Fulfilling the order, a detachment as part of the service units of the headquarters, and 4 commandant's offices at 13-00 on 22.6.41 g left the city of Przemysl and concentrated in the village of Nizhenkovichi, which is 12 km east of Przemysl. from battles on the border, 26 and 28 of the commandant's office
At 19-00 22.6. 41 g in the village of Nizhenkovichi, the command of the detachment received an order from the commander of the 99th SD. Using the forces of the detachment and one of the regiments of the division, to drive the Germans out of the mountains. Przemysl
The head of the detachment, under-command Tarutin, gave an order to the consolidated battalion, under the command of senior officer Polevod (consisting of 215 people) with 4 heavy and 6 light machine guns and 4 commandant's office with the support of 61 artillery regiment 99 SD, machine gun and anti-tank companies, one of the regiments of the 99th SD to drive the Germans out of Przemysl
The offensive on Przemysl began on 23.6.1941/9/00 at XNUMX-XNUMX. After a fierce battle on the outskirts of the city, the first to break into Przemysl were fighters from the station. l-ta Polevoda
Under the onslaught of the border guards, the enemy withdrew, leaving up to 300 corpses of soldiers and officers on the streets of the city. Przemysl was taken at 17-00 on 23.6.1941.
My grandfather's brother served in 92 PO, a machine gunner, died in captivity.

Richard (Richard)

,,, if you are interested, you can read the article (you will find it in my profile) "Heavy 41st". There I described as a grandfather in 41. retreated with battles.

[nikvic46]

Of course there was no panic. There was comprehension. Why? Speaking only about successes, we are doing a disservice to history. I understand the author. It was necessary to show all the lies about the Red Army. The film "Battle of Moscow" clearly shows both heroism and failures in the first days of the war. Six hours of watching will help a lot to figure it out.

[Cartalon]

The Wehrmacht did not have a qualitative superiority over the spacecraft.
Of course not, combat experience, communications, control, mat support, interaction of the combat arms, we go nafig

[strannik1985]

No pecuniarysuperiority

The fact that the formations of the covering armies were located in the PPD regiments and battalions at a distance of up to 40 km (some up to 60) from the border, i.e. the enemy was met by separate battalions / divisions of these armies (for example, in the direction of the main attack on the South-Western Front, the formal ratio 8 divisions 5 A against 15 6 A and 1 TGr, the real is much worse) to quality has nothing to do with superiority? Another "Rezun"?

[Boris55]

Western Ukraine, western Belarus, the Baltic states - all these territories were returned to the USSR two years before the start of the war. We just didn't have enough time to build completely new fortified areas. The main prisoners were construction battalions (mainly from the local), working on the construction of fortifications and armed with scrap, a pick and a shovel.

In addition, there was a place for solving their own (Trotskyist) political tasks in the upper echelons of government with the help of external forces (fascists), which is quite common in the history of the World.

Beria's "folder", with the investigation of the reasons for the failures of the first days of the war, is still waiting in the wings.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Boris55

Western Ukraine, western Belarus, the Baltic states - all these territories were returned to the USSR two years before the start of the war. We just didn't have enough time to build completely new fortified areas. The main prisoners were construction battalions (mainly from the local), working on the construction of fortifications and armed with scrap, a pick and a shovel.

In addition, there was a place for solving their own (Trotskyist) political tasks in the upper echelons of government with the help of external forces (fascists), which is quite common in the history of the World.

Beria's "folder", with the investigation of the reasons for the failures of the first days of the war, is still waiting in the wings.

And why bother to abandon the old, unfinished line of defense and start building a new one?

[tasha]

"And Vaska listens, but eats ..."

Let's take one paragraph.
In Pokrovsky's article: On June 22, the troops of this army were alerted, received weapons and ammunition, and took up positions.
Here: Historians note that on the first day of the war, units of the 12th Army raised the alarm and went to defense of the lines with weapons and ammunition.

In the article by Pokrovsky: When troops moved to combat positions, they were bombed.
Here: During the movement to the forward positions, their overtook the bombing the adversary.

In the article by Pokrovsky: Aviation subordinated to the command of the 12th Army did not take to the air on June 22. They did not give an order to take off into the air, bomb someone or, on the contrary, cover their own troops from the air.
Here: However, the air formations, which were under the control of the 12th Army, did not defend the air lines on June 22 and did not bomb the Germans, that is, did not take off at all. They were not ordered to defend their army units in the sky.

In Pokrovsky's article:
The army commander and headquarters did not give the order. The commander and headquarters of the 13th rifle corps, parts of which were exposed to enemy aviation.
Here:
No such order came that day from either the army commander or the army headquarters. Or did the commander (headquarters) of the 13th rifle corps, whose units were bombed by the enemy from the air, did not require air cover?

I hope we're not trying in vain? Look, after all, at the end of the article, the author still is indicated(hehe):

On August 11, 2010, the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper published an article by S.G. Pokrovsky's "Treason of 1941", which states:

Isn't it easier to place this footnote at the beginning of the article and you won't have to suffer when choosing replacements?
PS Just in case - an illiterate presentation of material, and even someone else's, completely discourages the desire to somehow discuss the topic of the article.

[Olgovich]

Quote: tasha

"And Vaska listens, but eats ..."

After the previous opus of the author, more of her articles don't read: neither mind nor heart.

I went straight to the comments (there were a lot of funny things last time), but, I see, many decided the same way ...

[Million]

Some dastardly articles have recently begun to appear on VO, with very loud headlines discrediting the feat of the Soviet people ...
Who needs it?

[evgen1221]

Excellent work of sabotage teams in the conditions of initial confusion and surprise. That's the whole secret.

[Sergey Valov]

"Excellent work of sabotage teams" - not a single saboteur is able to do as many misfortunes as he can with initiative.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Sergey Valov

"Excellent work of sabotage teams" - not a single saboteur is able to do as many misfortunes as he can with initiative.

This is for sure ... 19th brigade, October 1941:

The offensive starts at 8.00. Prior to the brigade's offensive, by dawn 12.10 the rear of the brigade arrived and the materiel began to replenish with ammunition and fuel. At 6.30 the enemy himself launched an offensive. The brigade commander ordered a counterattack, for which seven T-34 tanks advance on the forehead, and ten T-34 tanks circumvent the right flank and rear of the enemy. Approaching Zhulev, the tanks were met by Major General Dreyer, who, not knowing the order of the brigade commander to bypass tanks on the right flank and the rear of the enemy, gave the order to advance also in the forehead.
As a result of changes in the combat course of the tanks and a frontal attack by enemy fire, 8 T-34 tanks (burned) were withdrawn from the battle.

© Ulanov / Shein. The first T-34. Combat use.

[Undecim]

The mockery of history in the performance of the autoress continues, and her statement: "It is difficult for the new generation to discern the truth amid the pile of numerous liberal myths and Western attempts to rewrite history" looks like an oxymoron against the background of her writings, because in the number of "piles" and obvious lies with this labor hard.
However, the air formations, which were under the jurisdiction of the 12th Army, did not defend the air lines on June 22 and did not bomb the Germans, that is, did not take off at all.
On June 22, 1941, there were no air formations under the jurisdiction of the 12th Army.

[tasha]

On June 22, 1941, there were no air formations under the jurisdiction of the 12th Army.

May be. Here is the thought. In the aforementioned book by Kabanov on the situation with the fuel storage:
"- I am the head of the warehouse, - the quartermaster said worriedly. - I cannot give the Nazis aviation gasoline. - Half a kilometer from here, no more. Near the Sokoliki junction, in the mountains.
- Here they were preparing gasoline for the whole army ... "
That's the question - aviation gasoline, but there is no aviation (?). And even for the whole army ...
However, maybe they got it wrong, because after the explosion:
"- Gasoline is a light product, but it burns with a red fire, like tar."

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Undecim

The mockery of the story in the performance of the autoress continues,

"They let Dunka into Europe"! ...

[tasha]

After all, there was most likely aviation in the 12th Army. “The situation in the Air Force of the 12th Army was even more complicated. The command of the 64th mixed air division was formed at the airfield in the Stanislav area (now Ivano-Frankovsk). The 12th Fighter Aviation Regiment, which consisted of 66 old machines, was also based there, and there were only 48. Roughly the same situation was observed in the remaining regiments.
The enemy, who launched massive raids on our airfields, damaged 12 aircraft in the 36th Fighter Aviation Regiment, and in 149 destroyed 21 new MiG-3 aircraft. "

And further. Pokrovsky S.G. and "Irina Frolova"

However, the air formations, which were under the control of the 12th Army, 22 June the air lines were not defended and the Germans were not bombed, that is, they did not take off at all.

On the morning of June 22.06.41, 12, German aviation launched a raid on the Bovshev airfield of the Stanislavsky air hub. Flight commander 153 iap ml. Lieutenant L.G. Butelin took off on an I-88 plane to repel the raid. In one of the attacks, he managed to shoot down one Ju-200. The ammunition ran out, and Boutelin, coming close to the tail of the other Junkers, chopped it off with the propeller of his plane. The German plane fell to the ground and exploded. The ram was made at an altitude of XNUMX m, so Butelin could not use the parachute and died.

"In total on June 22, according to the headquarters of the 12th IAP, nine raids were made on the Bovshev airfield, in which 27 Ju 88s took part. The regiment's pilots announced 14 victories over bombers, and, judging by the fact that KG 51 lost 15 aircraft irrevocably, and six more were damaged, Soviet pilots did shoot down and damage more than a dozen Junkers. The 12th IAP lost 33 I-153 and eight I-16s destroyed and damaged on the ground, one pilot died, and 22 technical personnel were There were no casualties in the air, except for junior lieutenant Butelin. "

[Undecim]

Still, aviation in the 12th army was most likely
In the article autoressa we are talking specifically about June 22, 1941. On June 22, 1941, the 12th Army did not have any aviation units, all aviation units were front-line subordination.
Aviation parts, namely - 44 iad, 19 bad, 17, 46 gardenwere attached to the 12th Army
July 01, 1941, that is, eight days after the start of the war.
There was no 64th mixed air division, there was the 64th front-line fighter air division.

[tasha]

"There was no 64th mixed air division, there was the 64th front-line fighter air division." It immediately came to my mind:

- We are road workers of front-line subordination, - the major explained. - We are dealing with bridges.
- Excuse me, what does "front-line subordination" mean? - Fyodor Ksenofontovich was surprised.
The major averted his eyes as if he was embarrassed, then looked at the telephone operator and, lowering his voice, answered:
- Well, in the sense of district subordination ... You understand yourself ... The district headquarters can become the front headquarters at any hour. Time is like that.

I. Stadnyuk. "War"...

I am inserting a picture from the magazine DB SWF. Please note: "22.06.1941/12/12. Cooperated with units of the Air Force 22.06A, being part of the Air Force XNUMXA. The Front Air Force headquarters did not set combat missions on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX (there was no connection)."

The point, however, is not the terminology. .

[Undecim]

You can indicate the primary source where the magazine was taken from. Because the "Journal of Combat Operations of the South-Western Front", stored in TsAMO, begins on July 21.07.1941, XNUMX.

[tasha]

Sorry, I was wrong when I wrote the comment. This is the journal "Journal of Combat Actions and Records of the Combat Personnel of the Southwestern Federal Air Force Command (1 formation)"
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451004748
see page 15

[Undecim]

Then it all comes together.

[Engineer]

Irka, tell us about the palace
With aquadiskoteka and girls
What Adolf the Scoundrel Erected in the Woods
With faithful Fritz henchmen

Tell me about the screams of the libery
Vicious and criminal detractors
How the Leader and Beria saved everyone
Shooting heels or two of pests

Prepare a killer vinaigrette
For show-off, cover with archival information
And let it make no sense at all
The hamsters will be back for more.

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

The hamsters will be back for more.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++

[Pane Kohanku]

The hamsters will be back for more.

Denis - bravo! I didn't want to leave comments here, but I couldn't get past your verses ...

[Engineer]

It's not really verse. It is necessary to sing to the tune "Kolshchik, pierce me with domes ..."

[smaug78]

This is not even Samsonovism, but an outrageous rezunizim in its worst form. We rip out of the context the quotes and events we need, we abundantly spice them up with a mixture of the author's half-truths and lies. And to consolidate success: reasoning and logic at the kitchen level, just counting on the inexperienced reader. And here is the result - another pseudo-historical opus with an antipatriotic second bottom is ready.

[A. Privalov]

The beginning of the war, even after almost 80 years, remains a mysterious period in the history of our country. It is difficult for a new generation to discern the truth amid the pile of numerous liberal myths and Western attempts to rewrite history.

What is the author trying to convince us of here? In the heroism of the Red Army? Here, no one doubts it, despite the "heap of numerous liberal myths and Western attempts to rewrite history."
For 50 years under Soviet rule and 30 years of the modern period of Russia, professional military historians did not condemn / could / did not want to tell the TRUTH. It is hidden from people to this day, hidden under locks and seals of secret archives. As a result, the "new generation" has to speculate and make up for the frankly weak writings of amateur analysts like this.

[A. Privalov]

Although, there are some progress:

The publication of the full 12-volume encyclopedia “The Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945) has been completed on the official website of the RF Ministry of Defense. The electronic encyclopedia is in the "Victory May" section dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the Victory. On Thursday, May 9, the final volumes 11 and 12 appeared there.

However, this is a frankly weak edition. Two volumes have already had to be rewritten ...

It was about the fundamental work, which is published by order of the President of the country. Labor, which, as has been said many times, should become a benchmark. This is a work that has received absolutely unthinkable epithets in the press, in reviews, and so on: "12 volumes of truth", "incredibly high quality", "written by the best specialists", "the attack of the revisionists was repelled during the work." I thought: this must be some kind of amazing edition! However, in my opinion, it did not match all these reviews.

We did not see there references to war logs, historical forms, or any other rare documents ...

[Sergey Valov]

“Did not condemn / could not / did not want to tell the TRUE. It is hidden from people to this day ”- where is it hidden? In the domestic archives? Yes, there are a lot of unpublished documents there. But the German archives are open, study. The details are unknown, and from our side, and the overall picture has long been in the palm of your hand. It's just that the reality of very many is unhappy, so conspiracy theories begins, the search and appointment of traitors and traitors, the denial of objectionable facts, etc.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: Sergey Valov

But the German archives are open, study.

German archives have been studied far and wide in the part that remained in the West and fell into the hands of the Allies. A huge number of serious works by professional military historians have been written on them. But this is, in the opinion of some, the same "Western attempt to rewrite history"! At the same time, the archives of German documents located in the Russian Federation are protected by secretaries almost stronger than Soviet documents about the Second World War. Moreover, according to information sparingly and rarely coming from civil archivists, these documents gradually, in a completely inexplicable way, disappear from the places of storage. Sometimes without a trace, sometimes, at the place of the storage unit, the official blank "ISSUED". Without any explanation. At best, the date ...

[Vlad world]

And what to report to historians !!! About the incompetent plans of the General Staff and its incompetent Leader Zhukov. So he was declared an icon and put on a pedestal.
Remove from the pedestal. So there will be such a howl.
About the flight of the party activists ahead of their own screeching, looking at which many lost their desire to fight. In the USSR, there were no attempts to do this. And at the moment, too, will not. One officially announced Skrepa is the Second World War and the heroism of the people. And that's why heroism had to be shown !!! And what holes were being patched up with this is not to say. Not that situation. So historians are not looking for the truth either. Why get on a hat.

[Igoresha]

In the USSR, there were no attempts about this

in the novel "Young Guard" I don’t remember who shouted and waved a pen after the evacuated party activists and the militia "Ayu guardians" .. so it was a little)

[Vlad world]

Well, so is the Artwork. The type of fantasies of the author are allowed. But in Scientific Works this is allowed. This is a minimum membership card for the table.

[Igoresha]

The type of fantasies of the author are allowed

like what fantasies, 100 censors read and missed

[Vlad world]

1 There were not 100 censors. No exaggeration is needed.
2 If you do not understand the difference between a work of art and an official historical work, then I can’t help you.

[victor50]

Quote: Vlad-world

If you do not understand the Difference between a work of art and an Official Historical Work, then I can’t help you.

Yeah! With such literacy, and even helping someone !? Not! Only ambition!

[BAI]

The Wehrmacht did not have any qualitative superiority over the Soviet military personnel.

Here, like Napoleon's: one janissary is worth 10 French, a company of French is a company of janissaries, a squadron of French will disperse a regiment of janissaries.
1 soldier of the Red Army - he was better than a German, but as the number of units increased and the rank of commanders increased - the situation deteriorated catastrophically. One German division posed a grave threat to an entire army.

[ivan2022]

Quote: BAI

One German division posed a grave threat to an entire army.

It seems that you served in this division. Then the question is; "What has changed in your German division in six months?"
My answer is this; in 1941 the same thing happened as in 1812. The only difference is in the political situation- for which they extol Kutuzov to Heaven, who surrendered Moscow to the French, for the same they stigmatize the leadership of the Red Army, which did not surrender Moscow to the Germans.
"Ward No. 6" - everyone pokes his finger at the "superiority of the German nation", no worse than Goebbels, but no one bothers with comparing the technical resources of the industry of the USSR and its adversary.
I believe that the Germans lost the War precisely because of a strategic organizational error - they made an adventurous bet on their technology and a quick victory, without having sufficient natural resources for a long war.
For example, they created such a miracle of technology as the "Tiger" tank, but only 1400 units were able to produce them. They created jet planes, missiles and hell knows what else, but they could not release them in large batches. They rushed about in search of a "miracle weapon" precisely because they could not catch up with the USSR in terms of production of not only tanks, but even submachine guns Guderian wrote about this in his memoirs "Memories of a Soldier" - he knew his divisions better than you.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: ivan2022

I believe that the Germans lost the War precisely because of a strategic organizational error - they made an adventurous bet on their technology and a quick victory, without having sufficient natural resources for a long war.

This is not a bug, but a feature. ©
In the sense that the Germans had already tried to wage a long war - a quarter of a century before WWII. It all ended with the collapse of the Second Reich.
The next time the Germans tried to take into account the mistakes of the past and by all means to avoid dragging out the war, and even more so - turning it into an all-out one. Hence the blitzkrieg, and the rate on the wunderwaffe - because the leadership of the Third Reich tried with all its might to get out of the crooked path of the leadership of the Second Reich: waging a long war with a shortage of natural and labor / mobilization resources. The Reich in the war could only hope for a quick victory, he simply did not have a chance in a protracted war - the Allies and who joined them The USSR is still thicker.

This is what the Third Reich came to after a year of a great war in the USSR:

- The state debt of the Third Reich as of May 1942 is about one hundred and fifty billion marks, that is, at least a third of all money in circulation.
- The foreign exchange reserves of the Reichsbank are practically at zero.
- State bills issued for twenty-five billion, and they are not provided with anything.
- The administrative apparatus has increased sixfold compared to 1934.
- Shortage of skilled labor - more than a quarter of the needs.

© gunter-spb

[t-34 marina]

What is the labor shortage? They have millions of prisoners and ostarbeiters.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: t-34marina

What is the labor shortage? They have millions of prisoners and ostarbeiters.

Qualified work force.
Because the Teutonic genius was truly gloomy ... and the flip side of all his wunderwaffe with wunder characteristics was extremely high demands on personnel in production.

Did you know that the "Panther" (and other Fritzs until 1944) had their sides milled in order to install the final drives? Did you know that the Panther tower was cut out by the mold-makers - it was not welded? How was the tower treadmill assembled? Putting one ball at a time through a special rack ... And in order to change the middle road roller, it was necessary to disassemble half of the board, or even the entire board - from half a day to two days.
And the torsion bars could only be tightened at the factory ... and the fluid in the recoil brake of the gun was changed only in the workshop ... and the shells that could be used only in a tank, but not in a field gun (however, this is the trouble of all German tank guns ). A mechanic with a special education was allowed to assemble the Panther.

© M.Svirin

[Vlad world]

Like in September 1941, the Minister of Industry of Germany spoke out that Strategically the war was lost.

[t-34 marina]

And this even before the counter-offensive near Moscow!

[Constanty]

1 soldier of the Red Army - was better than a German

As can be read in many studies, German soldiers showed initiative and creativity. Although the Russians were brave and loyal to their homeland, they relied heavily on the orders of the command - and it was this command that failed the most at the beginning of the war.

[Glory1974]

As can be read in many studies, German soldiers showed initiative and creativity.

German soldiers and officers acted clearly, worked out, but stereotyped. Let us recall, for example, "9 o'clock in the morning, the German had breakfast, now he will start shooting," and at exactly 9.00:XNUMX the first shot.
At first, this advantage allowed them to act confidently in battles.

Although the Russians were brave and loyal to their homeland, they relied mainly on the orders of the command - and it was this command that failed most of all at the beginning of the war.

Of course, they relied on orders, but in the absence of such, they acted according to their own understanding. And when they understood how the Germans act stereotypically, we learned to beat them.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: BAI

1 soldier of the Red Army - was better than a German

Is this the Red Army soldier who, in four months, brought the rifle to rust in the bore? Or the one that going on reconnaissance, crawled to the German dugout and, not knowing what to do next, crawled back?
On average, in 1941, a Red Army soldier is 3-6 (at best, and up to a third - only 1-3 or even 0) classes of education, a lot of enthusiasm and little knowledge. However, the commanders were not much different from the fighters - since they had to explain the provisions of the charter in the orders of the front-line level.

[Vladimir]

And how, in your opinion, the course of a young soldier 2 cm tall up to 153 kg in weight of the soldiers of the Red Army (after all, mostly victims of the Holodomor), which took place in 50 weeks, could have been better than a scientist for six months from dawn to dawn, a 180-centimeter fat Fritz (170 cm they have left-flank undershoots) ? Not to mention the 35% illiteracy of our defenders of the homeland.
About military experience. They have 5 weeks in Poland and the same in France for 2 million bayonets. We have 14 weeks of Finnish forests and swamps for a million bayonets. Yes, a little less in man-days. They and our khalkhingols are mutually destroying.
And about our command staff, at best, sergeant-major PMV with 5 classes of TsPSh completely agree. An academy with such a powerful foundation is not for him.

[Unknown]

Free retelling of S. G. Pokrovsky's "Betrayal of 1941". The purely military reasons for the failures were revealed by A.V. Isaev in the books ,, Boilers 1941,. To give him his due, he shoveled the archives of M.O. and the Bundesarchiv. It’s about betrayal that needs to be dealt with. Treason of the top commanders of the Red Army? This topic is generally forbidden, and the archives of the Special Departments of those years, with seven seals and are not going to be declassified, since the materials stored there can cast a shadow on many generals of the Red Army. Those rare materials like publications
Meltyukhov M.I. “The materials of the special departments of the NKVD about the moods of the Red Army soldiers,” make one think. For example ... The lack of support for the infantry by tanks, aviation and artillery causes bewilderment among the highest command personnel of the armies and negative sentiments among a number of unstable commanders and fighters.

Some commanders assess the current situation as a betrayal on the part of the high command, which has not yet been revealed, and believe that our tactics are tactics on the support first of the infantry, and then of the tank units, not supported by the infantry and aviation. Anti-Soviet elements stir up these sentiments and create panic among the personnel of the army units ..... Speaking about the behavior of the commanders walking in the group during the exit from the encirclement, it should be noted that basically everyone went with the decision to either get to their own or die.

The behavior of the Deputy People's Commissar for Defense Marshal Kulik is unclear. He ordered everyone to remove the insignia, throw away the documents, then change into peasant clothes and himself changed into peasant clothes. He himself did not have any documents with him, I don’t know if he took them with him from Moscow. He offered to throw down the weapon, and I personally had orders and documents, however, except for his adjutant, a major in rank, he forgot his last name, no one threw down documents and weapons. He motivated this by the fact that if we get caught by the enemy, he will take us for peasants and let us go ... June 2 of this year. the chief of artillery of the 12th Army, Major General Gavrilenko, said: “The Germans will begin to attack and beat us. Everything that was taken in 1939 will be taken away. We have ugliness at every step. In the 16th mechanized corps, the shells do not fit the gun system, you cannot shoot. In the artillery brigades, there is nothing to carry the material part. The Germans will take us away like chickens without firing a shot. "

On June 23, an employee of the 12th Army's artillery department, Major Serofanov, said: “We were beaten, beaten and will be beaten because of disorganization, lack of discipline and order .... This mood of the commanders of the Red Army is striking. parts. And what were they doing at the time? In peacetime, conduct, reviews, gatherings, etc. they are masters, as the war is all to blame except them. What happened after all? Treason, or the usual, perhaps, I suppose, but how not to be? Another interesting recollection of N.K. Popel. brigadier commissar .... It is difficult to recognize the division commander. Bozhenko attacks me on the move.

- You are responsible for people. To destroy a people is not great wisdom. And so how much did they put in ... And the result? Speaks muffled, not hiding irritation

- To take oaths, to pronounce beautiful words ... We are not here in the theater ...

I don't have to listen to angry grumbling.

- Enough! What are you offering?

- What you yourself think, what among yourself, I suppose, more than once whispered, - Bozhenko looked with hostility towards Sytnik and Oksen, who were sitting under the tree. - If you don't have the courage to say it bluntly, entrust your chief of staff or some other chief ... We have enough bosses, thank God. The lieutenant colonel no longer remembers himself, he has lost power over himself. He waving his arms, breaking into a scream, then into a furious whisper.

- Why wag? Every competent commander must figure out - with such a detachment as ours, only to break through to the next world ...

I'm starting to understand where the zamkomdiv is heading.

- Well, well, lay out your plan.

- What's the plan! It is clearer than it is clear that the detachment must be disbanded. In small groups, one at a time, maybe we'll get out somehow. Living force will survive. At least fifty percent. And so - to all the khan.

- So, put a cross on the detachment? - Petrov wonders.

- You should, Comrade Captain, be silent when the elders are talking.

"May I, Major, be allowed to ask?" - Sytnik intervenes. - How can we throw the wounded in the forest or hand over to the fascists?

- Wounded? - Bozhenko hesitated. - Wounded? .. We'll have to sacrifice someone to save the bulk. This is the law of war ... [210]

But he already speaks without recent fervor.

- If I understand you correctly, Comrade Lieutenant Colonel, - Oxen is barefoot with the usual correctness, - we must give the command: save yourself as you can. There is only one problem: to shoot the wounded themselves or to leave it to the SS ...

I have nothing more to listen to Bozhenko, and this dispute is useless.

- Once again, somewhere, to someone you will stutter about your Solomon's decision, you will be shot. And the old merits will not save, and the rank will not help out .... Yes, the Soviet government raised officers on its own head, but there were others decisive, like N.K. Popel, honor and glory to them. Thanks to them, we survived in a difficult 41-year.

[VS]

Well, what are you - to say that among the top commanders there could be those who deliberately - by their actions or inaction or by the same pre-war plans - framed the Red Army for slaughter - not lying)))

[Gardener91]

In Soviet times, he served as an urgent service in Belarus and from the stories of warrant officers - old-timers I heard the following: - In the spring of 41, at the local airfield, "old" engines were dismantled and packed from fighters, allegedly according to an order from above, to be replaced with "new" ones. So, by June 22, the "new" engines were never even delivered to the airfield! According to them, the flight crew, in blue uniform, was hastily loaded onto a lorry and departed to the east. And the airfield was not even bombed. How does one feel about this "fact", well, I don't even know now.

[VS]

it is always not difficult to write off everything on the mythical Russian slackness - all the more the betrayal of the command ..)) At the same time, for some reason we forget - WHO DESTROYED in the end the USSR and the Soviet regime - did what the Germans could not do ... At the flag of the state RF and look - Vlasovsky - can you understand and start)))

[smaug78]

Once I was vacationing with friends in winter in Karelia. We stopped for the night in a small village. Our noisy company gathered in the evening at the club, dumping skis and backpacks in the corner. The old man sitting in the corner suddenly said: "Just like then, in 1939" - What how then? - Skiing. In 1939, skis were also dumped at the border like this. So the old Finn answered me and thoughtfully lit his pipe. The rest of the evening he remained silent, answering our questions in monosyllables. Then he suddenly covered his face with his hands and wept bitterly, smearing tears over his grimy face: "S-s-s!" And from that moment on, I began to research the history of the Winter War, realizing how we were all wrong, how we were all blind. How could Stalin, who himself at a meeting of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee on January 4, 1918, spoke out with a detailed justification for recognizing Finland's independence, suddenly invade this country for its "Sovietization"? Joseph Vissarionovich in 1918 said that the accusation of the Soviet government that it "lost Finland" is untenable, since it "in fact was never our property." And suddenly a striking change, the USSR starts a war with the Finns. Something is wrong here. And the Finnish citizens themselves asked themselves questions to which they could not find an answer. “It was then that it occurred to me: is it really necessary to fight? I knew that the USSR demanded Finnish territories in the fall for its safety. Proceeding from the fact that the Finnish government chose a war against a huge people, and not a territorial concession, apparently, the Soviet proposals were excessive. As I later found out, these proposals were acceptable. " (War diary of Martti Salmien, GUMMERUS, 1999). And I was struck by the idea: the war of the USSR against Finland was preventive! Let me now write "winter war" with a small letter.

[Gardener91]

Quote: smaug78

Proceeding from the fact that the Finnish government chose a war against a huge people, and not a territorial concession, apparently the Soviet proposals were excessive. As I later found out, these proposals were acceptable. "

That's all right. Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany. The distance from the Finnish border to Leningrad allowed direct shelling of Soviet territory. It was precisely to "pull back" the lines that made it possible to avoid a breakthrough in this sector and completely capture the city, controlling the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic from the first days of the outbreak of the war. But how Hitler influenced the Finnish government in 1938-39, you probably need to look in the archival diplomatic documents of these countries, or the intelligence of that time of the Soviet intelligence, or maybe something on these issues is available in the public domain, but I think that the factual will be greatly distorted, therefore I do not strain myself to search for this information.

[Constanty]

A German leaflet that reads “The German (read: European Union) Army will provide you with a quiet job for a brighter and brighter future. Work the same, Ukrainians! " 1941 g.

This lady either can't read or she has hallucinations.
The leaflet clearly reads "German Army". Everything else is nonsense to someone who is more of a party agitator and political scientist than a historian.
I am surprised that articles with such a low level of substantive content are being released by the BO editors for publication.

[Niko]

I have not read the previous article from this series (and I think it’s not worth it), But from this I absolutely cannot understand where the author is driving. A set of one-sided, taken out of context phrases and descriptions of events (on certain sections of the border, completely without comprehending the general situation on the fronts and, accordingly tasks solved by the command) It seems that the author seriously considers finding troops on the border line (in a separate sector) the main task of the army, while in other sectors the enemy successfully solves strategic tasks.

[Alexey RA]

The Wehrmacht did not have any qualitative superiority over the Soviet military personnel.

We are still talking about the real Red Army arr. 1941? The one whose leadership a year before the war did not even know its numbers?
Here is the situation for the winter of 1940-1941. in ZOVO:

... operational training of senior command personnel significantly increased and evaluated mediocre.

... units and formations of the district, fulfilling your demand for the coordination of companies and battalions completely ready for simple combat missions.

The preparation of mortar units and subunits is mediocre, with the exception of 24 ombi, the preparation of which is poor. The preparation of 45 and 76 regimental artillery is mediocre.
...
The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared to perform combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
...
The training of ARGK regiments is mediocre, with the exception of 311 popes and 318 hap RGKs, whose training is poor.

© Report on the results of the preparation of the ZOVO for the winter period of the 40/41 academic year.
In KOVO, the situation was no better. The situation was especially bad with the training of personnel in the infantry.

In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.

The knowledge of ordinary cadets is low.
They are completely unaware of automatic weapons and are only able to carry rifles and pull the trigger. Extremely poor knowledge of the materiel of small arms and, in addition, the artillerymen do not know at all the names of the parts of the DP machine gun and the revolver. Machine gunners do not know the name of the parts and the rules for disassembling the rifle. To great shame and chagrin, cadets of regimental schools have knowledge of small arms below the knowledge of the Red Army, and yet despite this they are issued by junior commanders.

© thanks uv. A. Ulanov
And this is in the best division in the Red Army.

The headquarters of the division was rated as the most advanced in the Red Army and was awarded the challenge prize of the General Staff. For the organization of combat and political training and the training of troops, the division commander, Major General I. Sherstyuk, was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.

[Kushka]

Simple the reality does not suit very many people,[b] [/ b] Here begins conspiracy theories, the search and appointment of traitors and traitors, denial of objectionable facts, etc.
[i] [/ i]
True reality is inexpressible, expressed is not true.

[dgonni]

As I understand it, a new growth is writing that has no idea even of reading memoirs!
It's unrealistic to meet a 41-year-old veteran right now. And I talked with them. This is in general. as an anecdote. Senya won a week ago, 10 thousand rubles! I didn't win, I lost at cards! And not 10 thousand, but a thousand. And in general, my wife is drunk!
Well, here's a review.

[andrew42]

Goering's vultures, tank wedges, communications and clear interaction between enemy combat arms starting from the battalion / battery level - these arguments are clear and understandable. But not defining. In fact, in June-July 1941, the Abwehr beat us, and beat us in full. The rest of the enemy's "arguments" were gradually picking up what had been prepared.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: andrew42

In fact, in June-July 1941, the Abwehr beat us, and beat us in full.

Yes, yes, of course. Abwehr.
And three GA, 44 corps, 127 divisions, 3.5 million hp. - this is so, appendix ...

[Gvardeetz77]

Suspicions are closed that the author is applying for a doctoral (well, or at least a candidate's) degree in history, soon defense, so he publishes "articles" to refer to them. As in the movie "Garage" (not literally): "my macaques will live in Siberia, collect pine cones, put them in boxes"

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Gvardeetz77

suspicions arise that the author is applying for a doctoral

well, maybe sausage. Madame Frolova is an ordinary plagiarist, every time they poke her nose into her slippers, but she continues to parasitize on other people's materials and shit with her writings with the complete connivance of the administration. No relation to the so-called. all this, of course, does not have any historical research work. However, the writings of this mediocrity stimulate interesting comments - the only, but a big plus.

[KURSK-46-53]

when in our country everything connected with the USSR and that war begins to forget, and our politicians also rewrite to the rank of winners of the 2nd front, then the scribe of this article will receive more than one award! Solzhenitsin crap his homeland got bucks from the CIA! Under Yeltsin, he crap his homeland again and on you a prize! made a movie bullshit about t34 zoya and get billions in your pocket! and as in fact, no one cares! and the author! the order to retreat! the border guards stood to the last! brest to the last! so what kind of retreat can we talk about ?

[Kushka]

Never put a saber in the hands of someone who cannot dance.

[VS]

Judging by the tmou that the author is not anonymous - anti-Stalinism and rezunism will not have to wait? (((

[vladcub]

Comrades, it's time to indicate on the site: "Frolova, Samsonovs -:" junior school age - hamsters "it will be better.

[dgonni]

The person writing these topics is far from the situation of the outbreak of war as Mars is from Jupiter!
No need to write for things in which the author is like a potato after harvesting but does not know where and where it will be planted!
Delirium is filled with a word!

[vladcub]

“It was tested at the front headquarters at 21 o'clock on the evening of 26 June.
And later it was recognized as unreasonable "
Why is there only talk about the 12th and 26th armies? Let's write off all the failures of 1941 to the headquarters of the Southwestern Front?
In July 1941, Pavlova, Klimovsky, Grigoriev, Korotkov were found guilty and shot. After Stalin's death, Zhukov turned to the then Minister of War, Bulganin, and together they began to seek rehabilitation.
And now Pokrovsky has found new officials?
Or maybe we will write off our sins on the headquarters of the South-Western Front? Fortunately, the commander: Kirponos, and the chief of staff Tupikov and a member of the military council Burmistrov died in battle and cannot justify themselves

[Colonel]

This time it was a question of a huge fuel storage, which was nevertheless blown up, but solely due to the demand of the head of this warehouse that threatened to shoot himself in case of refusal to liquidate this object.

Words are not enough to comment on this

[Ryaruav]

very good work of the Abwehr at the beginning of the war in conditions of confusion and lack of communication

[CTABEP]

When people write about what they do not understand, and even with a claim, such crap appears. That Samsonov, that Frolova - clickbait articles from very odious people.

[Alexander Koshkin]

After a large-scale purge, the top and middle command posts of the spacecraft were occupied by appointees who did not have the necessary qualifications.
For example, the commander of the Western Front Pavlov, at 38 he commanded a brigade in Spain, and only three years later he already held the highest command post. The result of his command is overwhelming - front losses exceed 600000 against 2500 for the enemy!
Those who escaped the repression were demoralized and prone to panic.
A very large negative role was played by the KA strategy, which assumed a war on foreign territory and little blood! The defense was considered sedition and outright treason!
Major Gavrilov, who led the defense of the Brest Fortress, ended up in it because the examination of his personal file was scheduled for June 22 in connection with his talks about an imminent war with Germany and the army's weak readiness for such a clash!
The army turned out to be fatally unprepared for heavy defensive battles at all levels of command, from the front to the platoon! It took two hardest bloody years to forge a cohort of Winners!

[Igor Korn]

after this passage "And it was with this Russian / Soviet division" I didn't want to read the article further ... from the word in general ...

[KURSK-46-53]

but I totally agree! the author is another paid duck from the west! the Soviet army! where is the Russian from? Russian was called out of habit either by the Germans or not finished off whites or Vlasovites! The author is a disgrace! paid dog from the west!

[Petrograd]

Interesting, thanks

[Evgeny Ostrovsky]

Thanks to the author for an interesting article!

[KURSK-46-53]

another defamatory article!

[Vladimir Alekseevich Smolyar]

Remember history, and everything will fall into place. Britain was one step away from world domination! In China, there is a civil war on sticks. Japan is only strong at home on the islands. Russia is in a weakened state after the revolution, collectivization, under-industrialization, under-cleaning of the army from Trotskyists. Europe is ready with the populist Fuhrer - corporal and the German Wehrmacht at the head to finish off Russia.
The last step remains: to bomb the Baku oil from airfields in Iran and leave Russia without fuel for tanks and aircraft.
And share the world with Germany to the Volga.

The fact that this did not happen is considered a great miracle. "..We Slaughtered The Wrong Pig - Winston Churchill (The Second World War - Bern, 1960)"

Molotov-Ribentrop Pact - pushing the border to the west - tragedy on the western front - retreat to Moscow. As a result, the Anglo-Saxons before Stalingrad feared the Germans more than the USSR. And they lost to the WWII of the USSR and China, which was resurrected in the form of the PRC in 1949. The world took a different path.

[ser.rudov2016]

Because Serdyukov managed to declassify the documents of the Great Patriotic War, so the truth surfaced. Shoigu decided that we were not yet ready to perceive this truth and again classified all the documents.

[silverwolf88]

there really was a betrayal on the part of individual commanders ... BUT why we do not know, unfortunately ...

[snku]

To draw far-reaching conclusions and generalizations about the state of affairs on a huge front, stretching thousands of kilometers from the North to the Black Sea, based on the recollections of lieutenants and captains, who at that time commanded companies and battalions by force, is at least naive and irresponsible. The fact is that even a few weeks after the start of the war, the top Soviet leadership, including the military, could not even get an approximate idea of ​​the state of affairs on the fronts due to communication problems and a general complete disorganization of troop command and control.

[KURSK-46-53]

very interesting! of course the Germans had no advantage and surprise! grandfathers and great-grandfathers rejoice at such a message in the next world! tanks changed! only machine guns started production! and so only rifles! and where is this order for retreat? and why did my grandfather, who went through the whole war, who fought with the bandits Bender, tell how many mass graves there were! the locals themselves told thousands of buried our fighters! and what offenses did you attribute to the retreating border guards? not one retreated! either wounded and unconscious they were taken prisoner or finished off!

[KURSK-46-53]

I am sometimes very surprised and amazed by such scribblers! with all this democracy, the transparency of all this permissiveness in the country is found diaries, records! calmly go to the defense mines and take classified materials that not every great historian can take! calmly rummage in the archives of the FSB! and then on light appears Solzhenitsyn Vlasov! who write propaganda on the dead! you were at least in some kind of war? maybe the author you got to Berlin? not for you to judge and blame, and even more so to argue here kta how and how much! most importantly, our grandfathers went through this war! not all returned! but no one gave you the right to denigrate with a retreat or an offensive! why did these generals and colonels not shoot themselves? in the photo they were taken prisoner like a hog who had eaten away! Karbyshev's hero was turned into an ice block and he never surrendered ! and how many of them were there? but for some reason the Germans did not take pictures of them!

[Vladimir Valentinov]

The whole sadness is not that! My friend's father went to war as a captain. The train was bombed ... He returned to the train, took the rifle, loaded it. He was beaten because "If you don't shoot at fascist planes, maybe they won't kill us." The stories of my father, who went through the whole war, also did not inspire optimism. As for Muslims and people from the Caucasus, I will not retell in order to avoid an article ... (although, I laughed notoriously. But, there were also sad stories.)

[DPN]

Yes, almost the same thing happened as in 1991, when you and I surrendered the USSR. At both times, sabotage groups worked hard, only GRANDFATHER and FATHERS coped, but we did not.

[coramba]

The betrayal of western Ukraine is evident! This entire Ukrainian clique had to sit on the same bench with the Nazi criminals! The Soviet leadership released this betrayal on the brakes in relation to betrayal, because there were many Ukrainians in the Politburo!

[Azzzwer]

There was definitely a betrayal. Including at the top of the army, party and state bodies. Read more here https://work-way.com/blog/2018/08/20/voenno-trotskistskij-zagovor-ch-1/