Military Review

Betrayal of 1941: was it or not

275

In the first days of the war, from June 22, 1941, the shock offensive of the fascists tank wedges were directed at the armies of the 8th and 11th ("Betrayal 1941: the turmoil of the first days"), as well as on the 4th and 5th.


Are we trying to trace what happened to these armies in the future during the Great Patriotic War?

4th Army of the Western Front


The 4th Army of the Western Front was suddenly attacked by the Nazis near Brest.

In their own Brest barracks, German artillery shot at once 2 divisions of this 4th army. The fact is that in the Belarusian Military District, the leadership and commander of the army did not send them by order to summer camps.

However, this army, despite the losses from artillery fire, resisted. She threw herself into battles. Its mechanized corps participated in the counterstrike operation. The 4th Army retreated, gnawing into every meter of its native land.


An archival document (combat report), declassified by the Ministry of Defense in 2018, signed by Colonel Sandalov, is one of the true testimonies of the heroism of the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army of the Western Front, about which Hitler's "Barbarossa Plan" crashed into dust from the first days of the war. Source: june-22.mil.ru

Recall that on the old border in the Mozyr fortified area, one of the divisions of the 4th army defended and held positions almost until the end of August. The peculiarity of the Mozyr UR was that it consisted of underground fortresses - "mines", which have no analogues in Belarus. ("Mina" is a fire group of several pillboxes connected by underground passages). Some researchers report that it was in time for this division, which was defending far to the west, that small encircled groups made their way.

Some experts indicate that it was here that the headquarters of the 3rd Army broke through after the defeat.

There is a version that just on the basis of many groups that escaped into this area from the encirclement, on the basis of this headquarters and the same division of the 4th army, the 3rd army was revived again, which made up for the sunk.

In bureaucratic terms, this division has already been assigned to the 21st Army. But we only wanted to follow her path.

This is exactly the division that took on one of the main blows on the first day of the war. It was not only preserved, but on its basis the army was also restored, which had passed a long battle path.

And what was the fate of the remaining 4th Army?

Formally, July 24, 1941 was the last day of its existence.

But do not think, she was not defeated at all, and she did not surrender at all. It was simply reformed.

But before that, she fights, attacks, fights and tries to help the 13th Army units to get out of the ring.

To no avail. It used to be that in the dark, the infantrymen of this army would squeeze the enemy out of the village or settlement. And in the morning the Nazis push the fighters back to their former positions. After all, the Germans had and aviation, and artillery, and tanks. Here the front did not advance. But it took a long time to break through the corridor for the surrounded Red Army soldiers.

“The infantry made two or three transitions per day (sometimes the transitions were made at night, when the enemy stopped hostilities and was resting), went to the indicated lines, but did not have time to create a solid defense - the enemy was“ hanging on his shoulders ”, preempting our units at the expense of the best motorization.

The 4th army retreated in the direction of Kobrin, Baranovichi, Slutsk, Bobruisk.

The retreat of the army was accompanied by significant losses, but it managed to get out of the encirclement. "
Link

Finally, the top management makes a compromise decision. At that time, only the army directorate and the headquarters units of the rifle corps alone remained from the 13th Army. And nothing else. And in the fourth army, four divisions fought at that time. Here they were given to the 13th Army. And it was decided to turn the headquarters of the former 4th Army into the headquarters of the Central Front. This is the kind of reform that has been carried out.

Thus, the interim conclusion for this army is as follows.

The 4th Army underwent one of the most brutal blows of the German invaders in the first days of the Great Patriotic War in the direction of Brest.

She led the defense of the border borders of the Soviet Union in a very important and difficult area. Varshavskoe highway led to Moscow - to the heart of the country. And this army initiated offensive battles and provided assistance to captured colleagues. So, of course, there is no talk here about any defeat or capture, and cannot be, in principle.

Moreover, it was these formations that turned into the very backbone, around which 2 armies were able to recover. And it so happened that the headquarters of this army was transformed and transformed into a larger formation and became the headquarters unit of the newly formed front.

In this regard, the combat path of the Chief of Staff of the 4th Army, Colonel (in the future, Colonel-General) Leonid Mikhailovich Sandalov (10.04.1900/23.10.1987/XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) is interesting. He went through the war on the front line from the first to the last day as a Soviet military leader, and devoted the post-war years to the military stories.

Ex-Chief of Staff of the 4th Army L.M. Sandalov during the Moscow counteroffensive will already be at the post of chief of staff of the 20th Army (the corresponding directive of the Supreme Command Headquarters, signed by Stalin and Vasilevsky, was given on November 29, 1941). But in fact, it was he who would then lead the 20th Army (instead of actually withdrawing himself under the guise of illness of the commander Vlasov) and, among others, will drive the fascists away from the capital of our Motherland. Further, in August 1942, he also became a participant in the successful Pogorelo-Gorodishchenskaya operation. Then in November-December 1942 - Operation Mars. And so - until the Victory.

In 1989, the book by L.M. Sandalova "The first days of the war: Combat operations of the 4th army June 22 - July 10, 1941".

Betrayal of 1941: was it or not

Bone in the throat of the Nazis - 5th Army of the Southwestern Front


The 5th Army of the Southwestern Front was attacked by the enemy at the junction with the 6th Army.

Logically, it had to retreat, turning its front to the south.

The mechanized corps of this army in the Zhytomyr region of Ukraine near Novograd-Volynsky took part in the counterattack.

At the Sluch River, the Germans had to stand for a week without advance. At first, due to the desperate resistance of the Red Army soldiers, they could not break through the front of the 5th Army in any way.


A participant in those events, deputy chief of the operational department of the army, Aleksey Viktorovich Vladimirsky, in his book “On the Kiev direction. Based on the experience of conducting hostilities by the troops of the 5th Army of the Southwestern Front in June-September 1941 " (1989) writes:

“During its offensive, the 5th Army will have to fight with 6-8 enemy divisions. Therefore, it is necessary to speed up the transition to the offensive of the 5th Army in order to divert as much enemy forces as possible and to interrupt the main communication of the enemy, than to weaken his attack on Kiev.

Formations of the left wing of the 5th Army occupy an advantageous overhanging position in relation to the northern flank of the enemy, allowing without complex regroupings to approach the highway, attack the enemy's moving columns and intercept his main communication.
Link

With a tank wedge, the Nazis rushed to Kiev. The Germans tried to crash into the joint between the 5th and 6th armies. By that time, the 5th Army's front was facing south, stretching for three hundred kilometers. When the Germans did break through, the Red Army men launched a series of attacks on the flank, splitting this wedge. And they were even able to take control over the Kiev highway for some time. This delayed the advance of the enemy towards Kiev.

In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells and communications. This led to a forced stop of enemy tank subunits in this direction. As a result, the Fritzes stalled at the Kiev fortified area, as they were literally left without shells. Isn't that a feat? To delay the advance of the enemy in a situation where there was simply no one to defend the ancient capital of Russia?

On the old border line in the Korosten UR, the army was entrenched. And the Germans had to deploy 11 of their divisions against it.

And this despite the fact that the Nazis sent only 190 divisions to the entire Soviet front. That is, this army alone took on 6% of the entire power of the fascist strike. And it didn't just break. On the contrary. For 35 days, this army carried out 150 strikes against the fascist invaders.

Just imagine that all this bulk was putting pressure on the one and only Soviet army number "five". And in the same period, the armies of the 19th, 20th, 21st, 37th, 38th and others were also sent to the front line from the rear of the USSR.

From the report of the command:

"The Military Council of the Army proudly reports that the 5th Army, despite the seriousness of the situation, as one person, is faithful to its duty, understands its historical role in the Great Patriotic War and will fight to the last fighter for the glory, honor and power of the Motherland."
Link

Cleverly using the underground structures of the fortified area, the soldiers secretly maneuvering in the Pripyat forests, crushed the enemy and instantly hid from the retaliatory fire of Hitler.

The artillery of the 5th Army was competently used. Her blows were very sensitive for the Nazis. There was enough ammunition. Unexpected fire was delivered both at the heaped location of the enemy and at motor transport convoys and supply stations.

It was hard for the Germans there. The Red Army men possessed warehouses in the UR weapons and ammunition. As well as stocks of spare parts, fuel, ammunition and food. There was no shortage of shells. Plus DotA. Although hardly used in mobile warfare.

When in 1943-1944. The Red Army will drive the enemy away from our land and return to this area already during its offensive operations, then it turns out that most of those killed in the first months of the war will be Germans in the trenches, struck down by artillery fire. In those days, the artillery of the 5th Army hit precisely the clusters of fascists and acted for sure - with precise aiming at the instructions of their reconnaissance and sabotage groups.

Definitely, the 5th Army became a bone in the throat of the Nazis from the first day of the war. The question of its immediate destruction among the Germans was literally equated in weight with the occupation of Donbass or the capture of Leningrad. Nothing less. This is how this army bit into the enemy.

In his very first directive on military operations on the Eastern Front (directive number 33 of 19.07.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX), Hitler points out:

"The enemy 5th Army must be quickly and decisively defeated."

But Hitler did not succeed quickly and decisively. And his next directive No. 34 of 30.07.41/XNUMX/XNUMX again prescribes to the German troops:

"5th Red Army ... to force into battle west of the Dnieper and destroy."

Two weeks pass and Hitler again irritably reminds his subordinates that:

"The 5th Russian army must be ... finally destroyed."

(Appendix to Directive No. 34 of August 12, 1941).

Finally, on August 21, Hitler again issues an order, in which he repeats three times the idea of ​​the need to destroy the 5th Army. But the main thing is that for the first time he is ready to allocate for this task

"As many divisions as necessary."
Link


In his book "General Staff during the War" (1968), General of the Army Sergei Matveyevich Shtemenko (1907 - 1976) recalls the following:

“The 5th Army, headed by Major General M.I. Potapov, firmly held Polesie and the area adjacent to it.

She becamewhat is called a thorn in the eye of Hitler's generals, put up strong resistance to the enemy and inflicted significant damage on him.

The German fascist troops could not quickly break through the front here. Potapov's divisions knocked them out of the road Lutsk - Rovno - Zhytomyr and forced them to abandon the immediate attack on Kiev.

Curious admissions of the enemy have survived.

On July 19, in Directive No. 33, Hitler stated that the advance of the northern flank of Army Group South was delayed by the fortifications of Kiev and the actions of the 5th Soviet Army.

On July 30, a categorical order followed from Berlin: “The 5th Red Army, fighting in a swampy area northwest of Kiev, should be forced to take a battle west of the Dnieper, during which it must be destroyed.

Timely to prevent the danger of its breakthrough through the Pripyat to the north ... "

And then again: "With the interception of the approach routes to Ovruch and Mozyr, the 5th Russian army must be completely destroyed."

Contrary to all these plans of the enemy, the troops of M.I. Potapov continued to fight heroically.

Hitler was furious.

On August 21, signed by him, a new document appears obliging the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces to ensure the commissioning of such forces of Army Group Center, which could destroy 5th Russian army ".
Link

Yes, this is our "fifth Russian army", in fact, among other things, forced the Nazis to suspend the offensive on Moscow. And even forced the fascists to deploy Guderian's tank army in a southern direction against the Kiev group of forces.

Even when the Fritzes launched a targeted offensive against the 5th Army on August 5, 1941, it still did not stop incessantly crushing the enemy with strikes on communications.

And with this very Hitlerite offensive, in general, there was an incident. Our team intercepted a packet with an order (directive) to start the attack on August 4. Exclusively thanks to the efforts of the Soviet reconnaissance and sabotage group. Only because of this, the date of the German offensive was then, in fact, disrupted. And therefore it began a day later.


And this army of ours was not smashed to smithereens. She only melted in battles, losing manpower.

Its legendary commander, General Mikhail Ivanovich Potapov, all this time sent dispatches to the front headquarters with a request for replenishment. And did not receive it. But, despite this, the 5th Army tore to pieces with its tenacious blows eleven full-fledged German divisions. At the same time, having at that time only about 300 active bayonets for 2400 kilometers of the front.

Note. The German infantry division had 14 men on its staff. 000 German divisions are almost 11 people. And this German armada was restrained by a Soviet formation 150 times smaller. And it didn't just hold back. And he led offensive battles that wore out the Nazis and for a long time became a bone in the throat of the fascist invaders.

Conclusion


As a result of the massive blow of the enemy forces of the army, which accounted for the lion's share of the attacks of the German troops in the first days of the war, not only were they not defeated, but on the contrary, they concentrated, opposed the many times superior enemy and demonstrated remarkable fortitude and ingenuity when they began to smash the Nazis, retreating ...

Therefore, the statement made by some experts that the Germans allegedly outnumbered the Red Army men in everything turned out to be incorrect. No, they didn't. In the ability to defend the Motherland and our motherland.

And although we were not strong at that time, our armies were powerful, as they say, with a special skill of the spirit. By the strength of the spirit. And the quality of this spirit.

This is the quality of the Russian armies (as they were called then) and this quality of the spirit of the Soviet soldiers came as a complete surprise to the enemy. And it was precisely this qualitative advantage that even then, in those first days and months of the Great Patriotic War, became the leaven of our future Great Victory.

In the next part, we will consider different versions of military historians about who, how and why surrendered at the initial stage of the war.

To be continued ...
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Articles from this series:
Betrayal of 1941: the turmoil of the first days
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  1. tasha
    tasha 9 March 2021 04: 48
    +40
    In their own Brest barracks, German artillery shot at once 2 divisions of this 4th army.
    Now I am rereading a wonderful book by Rostislav Aliyev "Storming the Brest Fortress". I recommend it to everyone, especially the author.

    It's not funny anymore...
    And this army initiated offensive battles and assisted captured colleagues.
    It used to be that in the dark, the infantrymen of this army would squeeze the enemy out of the village or settlement. And in the morning the Nazis push the fighters back to their former positions. After all, the Germans had aviation, and artillery, and tanks.
    In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful intercepting enemy shells

    Ours intercepted a packet with an order (directive) about start of the attack on August 4th.

    but our armies were powerful, as they say, with a special skill spirit... By force spirit... And the quality of this spirit... This is the quality of the Russian armies (as they were called then) and this quality spirit Soviet fighters came as a complete surprise to the enemy.
    The article is not a spirit, but a scent. Fierce illiteracy. Chunks torn from everywhere, somehow tweaked so that anti-plagiarism skips ...
    1. IPC 245
      IPC 245 9 March 2021 04: 56
      +44
      Unfortunately, I have to agree - the level of the wall newspapers of the vocational school, which was hastily made by a C grade student, is not an article for "VO".
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 9 March 2021 05: 35
      +28
      I will subscribe to your every word, you practically went through the entire article, I can only note one more absurdity issued by the author.

      When in 1943-1944. The Red Army will drive the enemy away from our land and return to this area already during its offensive operations, then it turns out that most of those killed in the first months of the war will be Germans in the trenches, slain by artillery fire.


      According to the author, after 2 - 3 years of war, on the territory they occupied, the Germans did not manage to bury their fallen soldiers? Complete nonsense.
      But what about this?




      No, but considering this is a pearl "In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells" what kind of serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.
      1. Alex_1973
        Alex_1973 9 March 2021 06: 00
        +16
        When in 1943-1944. The Red Army will drive the enemy away from our land and return to this area already during its offensive operations, then it turns out that most of those killed in the first months of the war will be Germans in the trenches, slain by artillery fire.
        Well, yes, it's tempting to ask, what exactly were the Germans doing in the trenches in the first months of the war? Jomnip the first months of the Wehrmacht to dig in was simply not when, and not why. The Wehrmacht at that time had other problems, how the infantry did not lag far behind the tanks and how the rear areas had time to provide the forward units with everything they needed.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 9 March 2021 06: 04
          +12
          Good morning, Alex. hi
          The Wehrmacht at that time had other problems, how the infantry did not lag far behind the tanks

          This is what you just noticed, what kind of trenches there are in FIG, they have completely forgotten what it is since 39. smile
          1. Alex_1973
            Alex_1973 9 March 2021 06: 07
            +5
            Good morning Constantine. hi In my opinion, the Germans remembered what trenches were only after the defeat near Moscow.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 9 March 2021 06: 10
              +7
              Well. better late than never.
              It didn't help, really. laughing

              1. Alex_1973
                Alex_1973 9 March 2021 06: 17
                +16
                Well, yes, walks in Russia did not end well for anyone, especially in winter.
                Somewhere I have already seen something similar ...
                Precisely, as always, once in a hundred years, the collective West goes on an excursion to Russia ...
            2. meandr51
              meandr51 10 March 2021 12: 20
              +2
              Read Shumilin "Vanka-Rotny". He writes constantly about trench warfare since July 41. It takes half an hour to dig a trench. We must somehow hide from the artillery. And the Germans drove the peasants to dig trenches. Another thing is that the Germans did not stay there for long.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 06: 02
        +19
        Quote: Sea Cat
        "In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells."

        Uncle Kostya, don't bother Irinka from earning money for caviar. She has the proud title of "CORRECTOR". How! repeat
        and, among others, will drive the fascists away from the capital of our Motherland.

        Damn, I would have a teacher in school for such pearls of cols would have made.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 9 March 2021 06: 08
          +11
          Hello Volodya. hi
          The question is simple: can she correct faq and ide with her "behind-the-ear" education? laughing
          And let him eat caviar, healthy food. wassat
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 06: 13
            +10
            Quote: Sea Cat
            The question is simple: can she correct faq and ide with her "behind-the-ear" education?

            And figs knows. I drunkenly scribbled an article about Manstein, so Mart laughed at me, like there weren't enough commas, and sent me to school. And here ... We must also send Irishka to school. This must be the same, the proofreader, and so he writes .. Sadness.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 08
              0
              Hello Volodya! I searched, but did not find. Sadness. recourse
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 09: 20
                +2
                Quote: Phil77
                I searched but did not find it.

                What were you looking for? An article about Manstein or what? Yes, they did not publish it, Chuvakin (Mart) sent me to school to study. laughing There are a lot of mistakes, he said. crying Yes and figs with her.
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 9 March 2021 08: 37
            +3
            Hello everyone! I also love caviar, but dear, ayayaya, infection / caviar /!
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 02
              +5
              Hi, Seryozha. hi
              Who doesn't love her!
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 05
                +3
                Albert advised to give it to the cat. Dal. He ate it and then looked at me for a long time! laughing
                Like, what about compote? Come on, friend on two legs! bully
                Take a look at * mail *.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 08
                  +3
                  I will not experiment with mine, he has no character ...
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 11
                    0
                    Whoever got poisoned with caviar?!?! laughing
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 13
                      +3
                      Whoever got poisoned won't tell. laughing
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 22
                        0
                        There are no such people among my friends. From the table * leaves the moment *! Even with * tartlets *. Although ... it is not served in saucers as before?
                      2. mr.ZinGer
                        mr.ZinGer 9 March 2021 12: 42
                        +2
                        No, antibodies have already developed ...
                  2. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 09: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: Phil77
                    Whoever got poisoned with caviar?!?! laughing

                    No, I only have mushrooms, and even then not completely.
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 09: 27
                +2
                Duc Albert will not advise bad laughing
                And we will treat Mrs. Frolova with overseas caviar)). By the way, I'm nostalgic for Moldovan / Israeli, with garlic and mayonnaise
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 9 March 2021 06: 51
      +27
      Quote: Sea Cat
      No, but considering this is a pearl "In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells" what kind of serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.

      Colleague, I also noted this expression and thought, what would the teacher give me for such an essay in the 5th grade? what In general, tin.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 9 March 2021 07: 33
        +12
        Quote: Stroporez
        In general, tin.

        Probably the eighth of March "worked".
    4. Richard
      Richard 9 March 2021 07: 05
      +12
      Good morning Constantine hi
      Good morning, Vladimir hi
      Article - just no words belay
      And to write about the 5th Army in the June battles of 1941, and not to mention this episode, can only be explained by the complete lack of ownership of the topic, and by cutting your article from other people's materials
      On June 22, near Lutsk, the 14st anti-tank artillery brigade of the 1th Army of Major General Kirill Moskalenko, the future Marshal, became an insurmountable obstacle for the 5th Panzer Division of the Wehrmacht. When the general saw the enemy tanks for the first time, he at first doubted whether it was our division that was making a maneuver. But the crosses on the towers left no doubt. The crews of 76-mm guns and 85-mm anti-aircraft guns had to hastily prepare positions. Soon a battle, unique in military history, began - a tank division against an artillery brigade ... and no infantry.
      The tanks deployed in battle formation attacked the gunners on the move, trying to break through their defenses. Several times the equipment burst into combat positions, crushing the crews and servants, but each time the enemy was thrown back. By evening, 70 tanks, armored vehicles and other equipment were burning on the battlefield. The Germans rolled back, but the brigade also suffered losses - four artillery batteries: 16 guns, along with the personnel, remained forever in their broken positions.

      It was on this occasion that the Hitler directive No. 33 of 19.07.41/XNUMX/XNUMX, mentioned by the author, appeared.
      This is how the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army fought on June 22, 1941. It was thanks to them that by August Hitler's headquarters began to understand that the Barbarossa plan had been thwarted. From a victorious all-crushing march to the Urals, the Eastern campaign, contrary to vain plans, turned into a protracted bloody meat grinder, the outcome of which at that time was unpredictable.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 9 March 2021 07: 21
        +24
        Quote: Richard
        The Eastern campaign, contrary to vain plans, turned into a protracted bloody meat grinder, the outcome of which at that time was unpredictable.

        When I read the memoirs of German generals, you can see that many of them already in July-August began to understand that they would no longer win this war.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 12: 07
          +1
          Quote: Stroporez
          When I read the memoirs of German generals, you can see that many of them already in July-August began to understand that they would no longer win this war.

          They lied.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 07: 59
        +9
        Hello Dima! hi
        The article is "overwhelming" in its complete illiteracy in all respects, but the author, apparently, is determined to continue in the same spirit, according to the principle - "do not wash, do it." request
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 9 March 2021 10: 13
          +14
          but the author, apparently, is determined to continue further in the same spirit
          The fact that the author is going to continue is still half of the trouble, the trouble is that the administration of the site is full of determination to continue posting on the resource the results of such creativity and cooperation with such "creators". And at the same time completely ignore the opinion of the readers of this "creation".
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 9 March 2021 20: 26
            +4
            And at the same time completely ignore the opinion of the readers of this "creation".

            That is why it is necessary to introduce the ability to negative articles. Has it ever happened on VO?
      3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 17: 06
        +1
        Quote: Richard
        Soon a battle, unique in military history, began - a tank division against an artillery brigade ... and no infantry.

        Nonsense. And the 298th division of the general. Walter Gressner doesn't count?
        1. Richard
          Richard 9 March 2021 18: 00
          0
          The conversation is about the battle of the 14th Panzer Division of the 3rd AK Army Group "South" of the Wehrmacht, Major General Friedrich Kuni and the 1st Anti-Tank Artillery Brigade of the 5th Army of the Red Army Kirill Moskalenko
          And what does the 298th division of the Wehrmacht have to do with it? belay
          On June 22, 1941, the 14th Panzer Division of the 3rd MK had 147 tanks: 45 Pz.II tanks, 15 Pz.III tanks with a 37-mm cannon, 56 Pz.III tanks with a 50-mm cannon, 20 Pz tanks .IV and 11 command tanks armed only with machine guns
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 18: 23
            +1
            Quote: Richard
            The conversation is about the battle of the 14th Panzer Division of the 3rd AK Army Group "South" of the Wehrmacht, Major General Friedrich Kuni and the 1st Anti-Tank Artillery Brigade of the 5th Army of the Red Army Kirill Moskalenko
            And what does the 298th division of the Wehrmacht have to do with it?

            Yes, despite the fact that the 298th Infantry Division took part in the indicated battle, which, in your words, was purely "tank-artillery".
            1. Richard
              Richard 9 March 2021 19: 47
              +3
              From the testimony of captured German tank crews of the 14th TD, delivered after the battle at the Moskalenko command post, it turned out that the brigade was on the way of the offensive of the 13th and 14th Panzer Divisions of the von Kleist Panzer Group, supported by the infantry and artillery of the 298th Infantry Division. It's like that. The prisoners did not lie yes So what of this?
              Does this prove the participation of the 13th TD and 298th Infantry Division in the daytime battle? Please provide at least one document confirming this
              And here is what Marshal Moskalenko writes in his memoirs "In the South-West direction. Memoirs of the commander. Book I". - M .: Nauka, 1969:
              "The enemy's 298th Infantry Division was behind the left flank of the brigade, completing a flank coverage of the brigade, which it was able to complete only by the morning of June 24, and the 13th TD of the Wehrmacht on June 22 had just begun to cross the Bug. The 14td did not have any freedom of maneuver and could attack our line is only in the forehead. "

              It is this fight that is described. Let's continue reading further:
              “On the night of June 23, reconnaissance reported that German tanks and motorized infantry had deeply bypassed the left flank of the brigade. There was no connection with the headquarters of the 5th Army and the front headquarters. To avoid encirclement, he ordered the brigade to be withdrawn to the northeast. By morning, the rearguard had taken up a strong defensive position. on the western outskirts of Zaturts. "

              Grigory Makarov writes the same thing in chapter LXXII of his "Campaign of 1941"
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 21: 42
                +1
                Quote: Richard
                So what of this?

                Never mind.
                Quote: Richard
                Does this prove the participation of the 13th TD

                and I didn’t say anything about 13 td.
                According to German data, the 14th TD on June 22.06, after crossing the Bug, entered into a clash only once - with the forces of the 40th reconnaissance battalion. There is no information about any frontal attacks by the forces of the entire division. The 525th Regiment of the 298th Infantry Division was ordered to continue the offensive at 17.00 after it did not wait for the 191st Assault Gun Battalion to approach due to fuel problems.
    5. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 9 March 2021 07: 56
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat


      No, but considering this is a pearl "In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells" what kind of serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.

      Intercepted by KAZ. And on 22.06.1941/05/01 at XNUMX:XNUMX three German satellites were shot down.
      Greetings, Konstantin hi
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 08: 13
        +12
        Good morning, Albert. hi
        That's lucky, right in the morning so lovely, I'm delighted, well, all the guys, as I see, too. laughing

        ... three German satellites were shot down.


        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 9 March 2021 08: 15
          +5
          So that's why I added to the article - cheered me up laughing
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 March 2021 08: 17
            +4
            I'll go and install a plus, I haven't put anything yet. laughing
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 9 March 2021 12: 07
              +5
              Quote: Sea Cat
              I'll go and install a plus, I haven't put anything yet

              No. don’t, Konstantin: because of these pluses, the “enjoyment” of such “creativity” can be delayed ...
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 12: 15
                +2
                Alas, what's done is done. )))
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 9 March 2021 12: 00
        +4
        Quote: Krasnodar
        intercepting enemy shells "what a serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.

        Intercepted by KAZ

        No, the "Iron Dome" yes
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 9 March 2021 13: 09
          -1
          Quote: Olgovich
          Quote: Krasnodar
          intercepting enemy shells "what a serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.

          Intercepted by KAZ

          No, the "Iron Dome" yes

          Yes, even Hetz 2 - most importantly, from Tashkent, there. Heroes of the Union were given free lol )).
    6. vladcub
      vladcub 9 March 2021 08: 00
      +15
      Kostya, good morning. What do you want from the author. She writes for cheers-patriots and for primary school age, but for them it will do
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 08: 03
        +8
        Glory, have mercy on God, I do not want anything from her! wassat
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 9 March 2021 08: 12
          +4
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Glory, have mercy on God, I do not want anything from her! wassat

          What if Liz Taylor was young? wink
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 March 2021 08: 16
            +2
            And talk afterwards ?! laughing
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 9 March 2021 08: 22
              +6
              Quote: Sea Cat
              And talk afterwards ?! laughing

              On the applications of the Kriegsmarine vertical take-off carrier-based aircraft during Operation Citadel fellow
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 07
                +6
                And about the pirate raid of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin" to the shores of the Ryadyan Texas. laughing
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 9 March 2021 09: 09
                  +3
                  People, menchi, people! Ikh bin Prometheus, Ikh brought Dikh Fire! fellow
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 15
                    +3
                    Nicely expressed, Albert! laughing I honestly liked it.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 9 March 2021 09: 23
                      +3
                      Greetings, Sergey! hi
                      Ikh weiss nicht, varum ih forgos mine Deutsche sprehe ... recourse
                      I would have learned German just because Engels spoke it repeat
                    2. vladcub
                      vladcub 9 March 2021 18: 59
                      +1
                      In fact, they also spoke German: Goethe, Schiller, Marx and Alois. So there is someone to learn German for
                    3. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 9 March 2021 20: 19
                      +1
                      Quote: vladcub
                      In fact, they also spoke German: Goethe, Schiller, Marx and Alois. So there is someone to learn German for

                      Hello, Vlad! hi
                      But they're all out of rhyme
                    4. Zug
                      Zug 10 March 2021 19: 00
                      0
                      There is a beautiful language, rich. The main thing is to persist in learning, not to stop. The juice begins when you start reading literature in the original, especially not adapted. All the best!
              2. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 22
                +3
                Niht schiessen kamraden, their bin ill das ist intermission! fellow

                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 9 March 2021 10: 09
                  +2
                  Reisecrankenfirsihirung won't help? ))
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 9 March 2021 14: 10
                  -1
                  Ferbot und botan - nicht care! soldier drinks
    7. Richard
      Richard 9 March 2021 08: 19
      +5
      What if Liz Taylor was young?

      Rather - Psaki yes
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 9 March 2021 08: 36
        +5
        Quote: Richard
        What if Liz Taylor was young?

        Rather - Psaki yes

        Has the Belarusian fleet intercepted the communications of Rear Admiral of the Luftwaffe Yamamoto von Isoroku?
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 16
          +4
          And again! +++++++++ laughing
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 37
          +5
          "In the sandy steppes of the Arabian land
          Three proud palms grew high. "(C)

          The flagship of Yamamota von Isoroku. soldier

          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 9 March 2021 10: 23
            +5
            I recognize you, cruiser Ben-Gurion, docked at the eternal dock near Dimona's weaving mill. From it, the revolutionary matgos pgoizveli stormed through the palace of the Egyptian king Farouk, which marked a new era in the history of Ashan - the era of Cherry, tasteless cucumbers, Zionist radishes, carrots and potatoes fellow
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 14: 26
              +2
              carrots and potatoes

              Are carrots and potatoes also Zionist? laughing drinks
              revolutionary

              You can call me spoiled, but I almost read it - "gayvolutionary". laughing
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 32
                +1
                Grown on the selected vilely intercepting Palestinian vengeance shells by the Zionists in the primordial Arab lands of Judea and Samaria. am
              2. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 14: 41
                +2
                in the primordial Arab lands of Judea and Samaria.

                This is still Ancient Rome has not yet presented its property rights! wassat And yet, yes, the giant Mark Ratslayer is also a kind person! yes
              3. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 55
                +2
                This means that the issue of Jerusalem occupied by the Jews must be resolved between the conquerors and the oppressed Ibusean people, who founded this holy (suddenly) settlement for three religions. Later newcomers, namely Greeks, Romans, Persians, Byzantines, have no right to constructive dialogue between the Israeli occupiers and the Ivusei who disappeared about 3 thousand years ago. am
              4. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 15: 13
                +2
                between the Israeli occupiers and the Ivusei who disappeared about 3 thousand years ago.

                You are an honest, noble duelist, but the Iwusei will obviously not come to the meeting ... laughing You can still remember the Pithecanthropus and Homo erectus - those even earlier, come on, inhabited this very land. drinks
              5. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 15: 46
                +2
                There were no Jews under Homo erectus yet laughing
              6. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 16: 09
                +2
                Javrei have always been !!!
              7. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 17: 04
                +2
                Javrei have always been !!!

                The first erectus who suggested changing bananas from a nearby plot to fish from a neighboring tribe? wink drinks
              8. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 17: 32
                +2
                I don't know for sure, but I know for sure that there have always been! good drinks
              9. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 18: 22
                +2
                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                Javrei have always been !!!

                The first erectus who suggested changing bananas from a nearby plot to fish from a neighboring tribe? wink drinks

                It was an Armenian.
                The first Jew exchanged his erectus for a fish
              10. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 20: 42
                +1
                It was an Armenian. The first Jew exchanged his erectus for a fish

                Oh, you got off topic! Have you changed it successfully? wink For some reason, it seems to me - super-lucky ... drinks
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 9 March 2021 17: 58
            +2
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Javrei have always been !!!

            Appeared with Neanderthals))
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 9 March 2021 19: 28
            +2
            Earlier! It's just that few people know about it. laughing

            Forward to Arms! There Shpakovsky with Winchester. drinks
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 17: 06
        +3
        There were no Jews under Homo erectus yet

        Do you remember the anecdote?
        Primitive people sat in the cave. It's cold to them, hungry ... Suddenly one gets up: - "So! You, you and there you - into the forest for firewood, march! You and you - took stones and began to strike fire! I don't care how, but to be whipped! The rest - line up! For me, bring down the mammoth! " This is how the battalion commander appeared.
        The people flooded the mammoth, dragged it into the cave, there is already a fire burning. We need to fry the mammoth. Then another comes forward: "Well, well, they quickly sawed off their right hind leg and gave it to women and children! And now they tore off the trunk and gave it to the old people!" This is how political officers appeared.
        They fried the primitive mammoths, ate from the belly, but half of the mammoths still remained. We decided to leave for tomorrow and went to bed. We woke up, but the mammoth was gone! This is how ensigns appeared.
        wink
        You say there were no Jews ... But someone came up with an honest exchange! drinks
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 17: 38
        +2
        There have always been warrant officers too!

  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 9 March 2021 15: 54
    +4
    School age is also good at being able to think.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 9 March 2021 08: 16
    +15
    Unfortunately, the author each time increases his personal "anti-rating". From article to article. I really want the editors to pay attention to the critical remarks in the comments and draw the appropriate conclusions. Or maybe it's worth going back to the practice of evaluating articles?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 9 March 2021 09: 03
    +9
    Quote: Sea Cat
    When in 1943-1944 biennium Red Army chase the enemy away from our land

    hi
    The author even they do not know about the offensive near Moscow in December 1941 d, when the enemy was driven back to 200 km.

    and the article produces, yes, depressing impression- both in style and in knowledge: to discuss, in fact, is simple there is nothing.

    1. Catfish
      Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 12
      +7
      Hi Andrew. hi
      Of course, there is nothing to discuss, but no one bothers to have fun, a good mood in the morning is a big deal. smile
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 19
      +6
      Greetings to you Andrey!
      I agree, the comments are much better. Perhaps, Irene is pursuing this very goal? After all, another * imperishable * is waiting for us! laughing
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 9 March 2021 09: 24
        +5
        New playground to hang out - humor on VO
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 27
          +5
          Ha, ha, ha! Albert, you are a treasure trove of humor today! This is great! laughing
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 9 March 2021 10: 27
            +1
            Yes, the sleepless night takes its toll laughing One boy woke the other up with a cry of Bartalito (he dreamed of a cartoon big-eyed cockerel), whom he was afraid of, woke up the second boy, both woke the boy up, like the Decembrists of Herzen and drove off ...
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 9 March 2021 11: 52
        +3
        Quote: Phil77
        Greetings to you Andrey!
        I agree, the comments are much better. Perhaps, Irene is pursuing this very goal? After all, another * imperishable * is waiting for us!

        Salute, Sergey! hi

        I, perhaps, from now on I will refuse read the opuses of this "author".

        Unless, I read the comments to them - today they are directly sparkling with humor and enthusiasm - and this is despite yesterday's March 8! yes
  • kalibr
    kalibr 9 March 2021 09: 26
    +10
    Now I’ll add this. The author, of course, did not read Soviet newspapers for all 1418 days of the war (and nafig?) And did not subscribe to the data of the Soviet Information Bureau about the destroyed German tanks by day. And then he did not compare with the data of our losses. So, in order not to torture people with numbers, I will write briefly that according to the Sovinformburo (and it made no sense for him to underestimate the German losses, rather the opposite), in comparison with the official data on our losses, only in 1944 we knocked out more tanks from the Germans than lost theirs! And if our tanks were better than the German ones, and the spirit was high, then ... how could it be? What was missing if we had more of them. There are more tanks, the spirit is higher, the quality (the T-34 is the best in the world), and the losses ... are higher than those of the Germans and decently higher. How to explain? All the calculations, by the way, are on the Web, and here on VO there was my article about losses in tanks ... And there is a book: "Tanks of the era of total wars 1914 - 1945" p. 318. "This one has not read the novel either! Read it by all means, Sharman!"
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 9 March 2021 09: 34
      +8
      Vyacheslav, good morning. hi

      As I read at one time, we, according to reports from the front for the 41st year, destroyed more German tanks than the Germans managed to release by the beginning of the Second World War, i.e. There was already nothing to attack Moscow with, but for some reason Guderian and Goth did not suspect about this.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 54
        +10
        Here! Konstantin! I read and studied! And the author / avtoressa / didn’t do it. From which the question follows: why occupy a * site * by this author? Her * palaces alone for Hitler * what are they worth?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 9 March 2021 10: 29
          +2
          Quote: Phil77
          Here! Konstantin! I read and studied! And the author / avtoressa / didn’t do it. From which the question follows: why occupy a * site * by this author? Her * palaces alone for Hitler * what are they worth?

          It was just a cool article))
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 9 March 2021 11: 45
            +6
            Only the heading is not "Fun", but ... "History" request
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 9 March 2021 13: 10
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              Only the heading is not "Fun", but ... "History" request

              It does not interfere drinks
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 9 March 2021 10: 09
        +4
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Vyacheslav, good morning. hi

        As I read at one time, we, according to reports from the front for the 41st year, destroyed more German tanks than the Germans managed to release by the beginning of the Second World War, i.e. There was already nothing to attack Moscow with, but for some reason Guderian and Goth did not suspect about this.

        Good morning, Constantine. So Stalin, in his speech in the Kremlin on November 29, speaking, also said that ... the Germans have an advantage in tanks and their infantry does not advance without the support of tanks. The only question is where the 20 thousand that were already there and the 1856 new T-34 and KV, about which in all the books it is written that the first was equal to 8, and the second 10 to German tanks. That is, purely mathematically, they alone would have been enough to kill all 4500 invasion tanks. Oh, out of 20 thousand, only 15 were in the ranks ... Well, to ram, for the Motherland, for Stalin, three tanks for one, including T-1 and T-2 and ... all the Germans without tanks! But somehow it didn't work out that way.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 9 March 2021 10: 52
          +7
          Quote: kalibr
          The only question is where the 20 thousand that were already there and the 1856 new T-34 and KV, about which in all the books it is written that the first was equal to 8, and the second 10 to German tanks.

          Some statistics on the T-34:
          On 22.06.1941/935/34, the troops had 01.08.1941 T-526s. By 34/XNUMX/XNUMX, another XNUMX T-XNUMXs were received.
          And in service as of 01.08.1941/158/34 there were only ... 90 T-50: 18 in the Western direction, 34 - in the South-West, XNUMX - in the South. The T-XNUMX had no northwestern direction at all.
          Plus, another 66 T-34s were sent to the remanufacturing facilities.
          A 1303 T-34 was irrevocable.
          The numbers of losses look staggering - in less than a month and a half of the war, Soviet troops lost about 70% of the total number of "thirty-fours" lost in 1941 (1843 vehicles).
          © Ulanov / Shein. The first T-34. Combat use.
        2. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 13: 05
          +5
          and their infantry does not advance without the support of tanks.

          General Potapov said the same phrase to the Germans during interrogation when he was captured. So to speak, it was his criticism towards "opponents" ...
        3. meandr51
          meandr51 10 March 2021 12: 45
          -1
          One false premise invalidates all other findings. There were no 20 thousand Soviet tanks. Was scrap metal without crews and armor-piercing shells. In reality, there were 4 thousand combat-ready, incl. a couple of hundred new types ... Further questions to the high command.
      3. Vlad world
        Vlad world 9 March 2021 23: 32
        0
        So the Germans had a rod - touched a broken tank, here's a tank and a new one laughing In general, according to the Reports, we destroyed the entire German army (with equipment) during the war 2 times, and the Germans already destroyed our army 3 times. The preponderance is behind them. They knew Suvorov's statement - write more than count them. I'm not sure exactly, but attributed to Suvorov.
        And about the article --- the title is one and writes about another.
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 02
      +6
      Well, she didn’t read your article, but you already swung at the BOOK! Someday. Between articles. HISTORICAL! Like, * palaces for Hitler * Although ... what kind of palaces are there, I ask you? Maximum-chalet. For the unaccustomed.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 9 March 2021 10: 20
        +5
        Sergey! There is a certain form or technology, shall we say, of writing any text. The process begins with the study of historiography. That is, who did what before me. For example, I always look at who wrote what on VO about what I want to write about. What kind of photos he used. Then we look who wrote what. We note the inconsistencies. We turn, if possible, to the documents of the archives. And only after having processed all this - we sit down to write. Using the deep immersion method, you can prepare almost any topic in ... 2 months. Superficially ... in a day. But at the same time it is necessary, again, to have the best practices in historiography. Right now, for example, I am reading "A Short Course in the History of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)" with a pencil in my hands. Very interesting. And the topics of the articles jump right into the hands ... And so Irina can also be recommended ... read the TRUTH for 1418 days of war, go to the local archive ... Or OK KPSS. For example, consider the topic: "Marriage in industry during the Second World War according to the materials of party commissions ....". A lot of things are possible. And without any ... nonsense.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 29
          +6
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are a writer respected by me. I respect you for style, for quality, for answering opponents. But who, tell me, prevents Frolova from doing this? If you are an author, answer your opponents? No? You answer, and this is correct. Again still, in my opinion.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 9 March 2021 12: 23
            +3
            Perhaps this is not included in her plans. That's all, Sergei!
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 9 March 2021 09: 47
    +6
    Quote: Sea Cat
    According to the author, after 2 - 3 years of war, on the territory they occupied, the Germans did not manage to bury their fallen soldiers? Complete nonsense.

    Nonsense. Who who and the Germans kept order and always buried their dead. It was after the Red Army began to advance rapidly, then it was no longer possible to bury the dead.
    And until now in Germany there is the German National Union, which is engaged in the search for burials and the identification of the identity of the victims, representative offices of the NNS exist in all states where the German army fought.
    1. meandr51
      meandr51 10 March 2021 12: 57
      0
      Sometimes the artillery mixed the trenches with the soldiers. I don't think the Germans had modern search engines. Perhaps, some facts of the discovery of German bones of the 41st took place. Nothing in the world is perfect. Even the Germans.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 9 March 2021 15: 52
    +2
    SDI was tested. But not funny.
    One cannot but pay attention to the phrase, even when reading it diagonally.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 9 March 2021 16: 14
      +1
      Hello, Sergey. hi
      Kind of like a look into the future: "Well, it's fig, tomorrow I'll finish it." (from)
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 9 March 2021 19: 40
        +2
        Hi Constantine!

        Close to this.
        There is a compulsory program for the day.
        The rest that is in excess is optional.
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 9 March 2021 16: 18
    +4
    Quote: Sea Cat
    But what about this?

    Don't find fault, the author had in mind these graves of German soldiers who died in the trenches under our artillery fire.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 9 March 2021 16: 28
      -1
      And how could she know from what these soldiers died, from artillery fire, dysentery, or from the gonorrhea caught back in France? laughing
      1. meandr51
        meandr51 10 March 2021 12: 59
        +1
        She could have known from the memoirs of those who saw it. Legs and arms rarely fall off from gonorrhea ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 10 March 2021 13: 09
          -1
          Legs and arms rarely fall off from gonorrhea

          Had no pleasure to experience it myself. request
          She might have known from the memoirs of those who saw it.

          And when did those who wrote the memoirs see this? Considering that the Germans were advancing during this period, not us.
          In addition, the author writes this in black and white:
          When in 1943-1944. The Red Army will drive the enemy away from our land and return to this area already during its offensive operations, then it turns out that most of those killed in the first months of the war will be Germans in the trenches, slain by artillery fire.

          The rest is written in the comments above.
          Not enough for you?
    2. tasha
      tasha 9 March 2021 18: 09
      +2
      Alexander, the "author" did not mean anything. Here's what was in the original:
      Paragraph A. "The artillery of the 5th Army did not experience difficulties with shells .... Later, in 1943-44, during the offensive operations of the Red Army, it was revealed that 2/3 of the corpses of German soldiers had traces of destruction by artillery fire. So after all, these were soldiers in the trenches. And the artillery of the 5th Army, acting according to the data of the reconnaissance and sabotage groups, struck at the concentration of troops. "

      Became after "literary processing".
      The paragraph is full ... "There was no shortage of shells .... When in 1943-1944 the Red Army chases the enemy away from our land and returns to this area already in the course of its offensive operations, it turns out that most of the dead in the first months of war - it will be the Germans in the trenches, struck down by artillery fire. In those days, the artillery of the 5th Army hit precisely the clusters of fascists and acted for sure - with precise aiming at the instructions of their reconnaissance and sabotage groups. "

      Those. someone indicated as "Irina Frolova" - alters the text, but at the same time does not even understand (!) the meaning of this text .. Here you are, a smart person - how do you understand paragraph A?
      1. meandr51
        meandr51 10 March 2021 13: 06
        -1
        The author has little command of military terminology. She could easily confuse the "accumulation of troops" on the road with "dense defensive formations." For some reason I believe that heavy artillery could mix a battalion or two with the ground so that there is no one to bury.
        1. tasha
          tasha 10 March 2021 13: 14
          0
          Andrey, you seem to be in a hurry with your comment. The question is then to you - how do you understand the meaning of the paragraph?

          "The artillery of the 5th Army did not experience difficulties with shells .... Later, in 1943-44, during the offensive operations of the Red Army, it was revealed that 2/3 of the corpses of German soldiers had traces of destruction by artillery fire. the soldiers were in the trenches, while the artillery of the 5th Army, acting according to the data of the reconnaissance and sabotage groups, struck at the troop concentrations.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 10 March 2021 19: 20
        0
        Quote: tasha
        Those. someone identified as "Irina Frolova" - alters the text, but at the same time does not even understand (!) the meaning of this text ..

        This artificial intelligence appeared to the local people in all its glory.
  • DED_peer_DED
    DED_peer_DED 10 March 2021 11: 58
    +2
    No, but considering this is a pearl "In addition, the fighters carried out a number of successful interceptions of enemy shells" what kind of serious attitude to the article in general can we talk about.

  • Zug
    Zug 10 March 2021 18: 50
    0
    The shells were apparently caught with nets
  • Richard
    Richard 9 March 2021 06: 42
    +13
    Good morning Michael hi

    This is really not funny at all, okay, Madame Frolova is a well-known "writer" in VO, but at least someone reads the author's material for review?
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 9 March 2021 07: 22
      +9
      Good morning. I'm afraid they read the same: "specialists" like Frolova "historian"
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 08: 00
        +5
        Glory hi , you mean those to whom the article gets for moderation, I hope. smile
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 9 March 2021 08: 07
          +6
          But not us. Who knows how to think will not admire her, but "hurray patriots" ...
      2. Richard
        Richard 9 March 2021 08: 13
        +14
        How many times has she already been caught in tricks with photographs ... and here again
        the most famous photo of the military photographer of the Soviet Information Bureau Viktor Sergeevich Kinelovsky "Prokhorovka. July 5, 1943"she inserts into her article about June 1941.

        And tell your stupid readers, dear author, proofreader and "historian", what kind of tanks are these in the background of the photo you posted?
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 March 2021 10: 04
          +7
          Well, laughed, good fellows? ))))
          A good mood in the morning is a nice thing! Especially when you stomp on the Author, counting the commas and the number of enemy shells caught by the hands of the Red Army soldiers.
          But there is a title:

          "Betrayal 1941: Was It or Not"


          The fact that the offensive of Hitler's troops was to begin any minute was known to the entire army, and not only to Stalin. Therefore, back on June 18, 1941, Stalin gave the order to bring the troops of the first strategic echelon into full combat readiness. It is believed that the General Staff immediately transmitted the Stalinist directive to the troops, but for some reason it was not implemented in those border districts that were hit by the enemy's main blow.
          This was directive number 1 - about which little was known for a long time. So, the directive, signed by Stalin back on June 18, came to the military districts only on the night of June 22, and at the same time it clearly stated: "Be in full combat readiness." That is, not to bring the troops into full combat readiness - you can lead them as long as you like, but immediately be in full combat readiness. And this order was given in advance. In fact, 4 days before the start of the war. So I have a question: did they carry those sealed directive packets on the carts?
          1. meandr51
            meandr51 10 March 2021 13: 09
            0
            On turtles. But only in the Western District. In the rest of the districts, for some reason, everyone was in the same combat readiness ...
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 04
          +4
          Dmitry! Aren't you asking too much from the AUTHOR? * Palaces for Hitler *? In my opinion, too much!
          1. Richard
            Richard 9 March 2021 10: 25
            +10
            The only thing I ask the author is not to keep the readers of "History" for the profane and pay more attention to the publication of texts and photos, after all, we are all here - both military and civilian target audience, and by any means to distinguish t34-85, from .t34 -76 can
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 32
              +6
              Dmitry! Regarding vol. 34-76! ++++++++++++ laughing
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 35
              +5
              I never tire of rejoicing that you are with us!
              1. Richard
                Richard 9 March 2021 10: 52
                +6
                Now I will give only short comments and absolutely no additions to the author's articles. And that is not often.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 9 March 2021 16: 22
                  +4
                  Dima, I just noticed.
                  Well, Lyudmila is clearly "over the edge", do not be offended, this is not the worst of the set that our friends have.
                  Forgive her, she's not out of malice and not out of envy, she just blurted out without thinking, it happens to everyone. I also periodically "give a rooster", so what, sprinkle ashes on my head?
                  All this nonsense and little things in life. Write as you wrote and as much as you want. We're all here for you. good
                  PS And women need to be forgiven, otherwise how to live something. wink
                  1. Richard
                    Richard 9 March 2021 16: 38
                    +4
                    It’s not a matter of offense, I just don’t like the fact that they began to put me “as an example” for the authors of articles. Moreover, for those authors who are attractive to me, I just try not to comment on others. So to reduce my "commentatorial fervor" is the right decision wink
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 March 2021 16: 57
                      +3
                      This, of course, is exclusively your business, but I believe that you are still wrong. Neither the authors nor we, sinners, deserved such a decision. If you pay attention to every thoughtless statement, then it is better to lock yourself tightly at home and throw the key out the window. And who will be better from it? request
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 9 March 2021 15: 23
              +5
              Quote: Richard
              all the same, we are all here - both military and civilian target audience and we can distinguish t34-85 from .t34-76 by any means

              And with good photo quality, we can distinguish the T-34 "with a pie" from the T-34 "with a nut". smile
        3. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 13: 09
          +4
          She inserts "Prokhorovka. July 5, 1943" into her article about June 1941.

          Absolutely, a photo of 1943 from the Kursk Bulge. Well, and machines with a "nut" tower, and these only appeared in 1942, EMNIP. In general, it is indeed somewhat incorrect to insert this photo into this article ... hi
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 9 March 2021 16: 19
    +3
    Quote: tasha
    The article is not a spirit, but a scent.

    There is no smell from the article. The author is doing a good deed. Despite the existing bloopers, the article is wonderful. Yes, and it does not smell of plagiarism, there are links to all quotes and borrowings.
    You often read outright plagiarism at Shpakovsky's and eat nothing.
    1. tasha
      tasha 9 March 2021 17: 22
      +3
      Alexander, let's compare?

      https://topwar.ru/1068-izmena-1941-goda-chast-1.html "Измена 1941 года". Автор: С.Г.Покровский
      1. It was:
      "Against the 5th army, which was caught in the Korosten fortified area on the old border, the Germans were forced to deploy 11 divisions. They had 190 divisions on the entire Soviet front. So, every 1/17 of the entire Wehrmacht was turned against the only 5th army in the very time when Soviet armies with numbers 19, 20, 21, ... 37, 38 arrived at the front from the depths of the country ... Within 35 days, the army dealt 150 blows to the Germans. unexpected places, crushed the enemy, and then they themselves escaped from the blows of the Germans. "

      After:
      “On the old border line in Korosten UR, the army was entrenched. And the Germans had to deploy 11 of their divisions against it.
      And this despite the fact that the Nazis sent only 190 divisions to the entire Soviet front. That is, this army alone took on 6% of the entire power of the fascist strike. And it didn't just break. On the contrary. For 35 days, this army carried out 150 strikes against the fascist invaders.
      Just imagine that all this bulk was putting pressure on the one and only Soviet army number "five". And in the same period, the armies of the 19th, 20th, 21st, 37th, 38th and others were also sent to the front line from the rear of the USSR.
      Cleverly using the underground structures of the fortified area, the soldiers secretly maneuvering in the Pripyat forests, crushed the enemy and instantly hid from the retaliatory fire of Hitler. "

      The opinion of S.G. Pokrovsky on the problem of 1941 has been discussed by historians more than once. From different sides. Stanislav Georgievich died in 2012 and just out of respect for his memory, we could be told who the real author is. And not to engage in mediocre retelling, poorly understanding what S.G. Pokrovsky wrote.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 9 March 2021 05: 43
    +13
    Some strange analysis, on the basis of which the author classifies someone as a traitor? Is it okay that the positions of 4th A were broken through on June 22, motorized corps of the 2nd TGr crossed north and south of Brest, advanced 15-30 km into the depths of Soviet territory?
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 9 March 2021 06: 02
    +12
    If the rate had obeyed Budyonny in time with his proposal on September 7, 1941 to withdraw 5A from Kiev ... there would have been no large-scale tragedy later with the encirclement of the 5th, 21st, 26th and 37th armies of the Red Army.
    But Budyonny was dismissed ... Kirponos assured Stalin that Kiev would be held, and as a result, a reassessment of its capabilities and a large-scale tragedy with the encirclement and complete defeat of the above armies ... were captured.
    There are gross miscalculations of the highest generals of the Red Army and of Comrade Stalin himself in assessing the situation at that time.
    Comrade Stalin learned from his mistakes and the mistakes of his generals ... the war with little blood and on foreign territory did not work out ... all this cost dearly to our people.
    1. igordok
      igordok 9 March 2021 06: 48
      +7
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      If the rate had obeyed Budyonny in time ...

      On this topic - a good recent program.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 9 March 2021 09: 25
      +4
      Zhukov analyzed this moment in his book "to withdraw the 5th army from Kiev": "The Southwestern Front must be completely withdrawn beyond the Dnieper. At the junction of the Central and Southwestern fronts, concentrate the reserves of at least five reinforced divisions.
      - But what about Kiev? - Stalin asked
      I understood what the two words meant: "Surrender Kiev" for all Soviet people and for JV Stalin. But I could not succumb to feelings, and as a military man was obliged to offer the only possible solution, in my opinion "(" Memories and Reflections "), it was July 29, 1941
    3. depressant
      depressant 9 March 2021 10: 42
      +2
      There are gross miscalculations of the highest generals of the Red Army and of Comrade Stalin himself in assessing the situation at that time.

      But directive N1 was given by Stalin already 4 days before the start of the war!
      Nobody seems to hear me ...
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 15: 16
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        Nobody seems to hear me ...

        because, excuse me, you are writing nonsense.
      2. strannik1985
        strannik1985 9 March 2021 15: 31
        +1
        "Bringing troops to combat readiness" is a very vague and insignificant concept. Mobilization in the USSR was announced on June 22. Given that the full estimated period of mobilization of the military district to the front with the deployment of hospitals and spare parts is 30 days.
    4. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 13: 14
      +3
      Kirponos assured Stalin that Kiev will be withheld

      EMNIP, even before that General Eremenko assured Stalin that he would try to "defeat the scoundrel Guderian" (his words). However, the Panzer Group "Schnelle Heinz" was turned south and went to surround the Southwestern Front.
    5. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 9 March 2021 15: 18
      +5
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      If the rate had obeyed Budyonny in time with his proposal on September 7, 1941 to withdraw 5A from Kiev ... there would have been no large-scale tragedy later with the encirclement of the 5th, 21st, 26th and 37th armies of the Red Army.

      In response to this proposal, the Headquarters indicated that in the event of withdrawal, the army would be defeated on the march. For in 1941 even the German infantry formations had greater mobility than our infantry units.
      The scenario is standard: the Germans, having detected the withdrawal of the main forces, shoot down our rearguard barriers and with motorized advance groups of infantry divisions (based on the reconnaissance battalion and a motorized anti-tank battalion) bypass our infantry and capture key points (bridges and communication centers). After that, our rifle divisions are pushed to natural obstacles (rivers) and either are destroyed or force the rivers with the loss of all transport and heavy weapons.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 9 March 2021 16: 07
        +4
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The scenario is standard: the Germans, having detected the withdrawal of the main forces, shoot down our rearguard barriers and with motorized advance groups of infantry divisions (based on the reconnaissance battalion and a motorized anti-tank battalion) bypass our infantry and capture key points (bridges and communication centers).

        And in France, it has been tested in practice ... Sometimes battles are won not by tanks, but by trucks and tractors - as practice has shown, the criterion of truth ..
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 17: 02
          +4
          Sometimes battles are won not by tanks, but by trucks and tractors - as practice has shown, the criterion of truth.

          Remember, there is some expression, something like: "Amateurs learn tactics, amateurs learn strategy, professionals learn logistics." Yes you are right. hi
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 9 March 2021 17: 10
            +2
            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            Sometimes battles are won not by tanks, but by trucks and tractors - as practice has shown, the criterion of truth.

            Remember, there is some expression, something like: "Amateurs learn tactics, amateurs learn strategy, professionals learn logistics." Yes you are right. hi

            It's not just logistics ... German tank groups are an example of this ...
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 9 March 2021 17: 12
              +2
              It's not just logistics ... German tank groups are an example of this ...

              Certainly, not only ... Organization, management, etc.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 9 March 2021 17: 16
                +3
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                Certainly, not only ... Organization, management, etc.

                In France, the Germans were advancing in tank groups faster than the French were retreating ... and thanks to mobile infantry and art tractors, they could conduct full-fledged combat operations - to resist both French tanks and "master" the occupied territories ...
                And they worked out the organization and management in France - there is no such thing as perfection, but they all had the most perfect at that time and proven by practice ..
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 9 March 2021 23: 56
            +3
            You can study everything. Question: how to apply.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 10 March 2021 03: 56
              +2
              Quote: Korsar4
              Question: how to apply.

              Well then, also "how to apply" ..
  • mark1
    mark1 9 March 2021 06: 25
    +6
    In their own Brest barracks, German artillery shot at once 2 divisions of this 4th army
    Two divisions are already an incremental automation process. I remember at school they talked (and read) about 3-3,5 thousand, then the number gradually increased to 7-8 thousand hp, and in the continuation of the process of the 2nd division -18-20 thousand hp (and even there all were shot on June 22).
    And the first part of the article turned out to be quite decent ...
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 9 March 2021 06: 30
      +4
      3-3,5 thousand, then the number gradually increased to 7-8 thousand hp, and in the continuation of the process of the 2nd division -18-20 thousand hp

      According to the Germans, about 2000 of our soldiers were buried in the Brest Fortress ... in terms of the civilian population, how many of them died there is unknown. hi
      1. mark1
        mark1 9 March 2021 06: 33
        +5
        Well, the Germans' assessments do not contradict even the first Soviet version. And then it is necessary to recheck and recheck - especially the "research" of the times of perestroika and the 90s.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 09: 37
          +2
          But, excuse me, but I do not agree with you! Just starting from the mid-eighties / 1987 / and ... we have flooded * research *. True? So it depends on the author of the * research *, doesn't it? From the specific AUTHOR.
          1. mark1
            mark1 9 March 2021 11: 44
            +3
            Sorry, what did you disagree with? I'm kind of talking about the same thing ...
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 9 March 2021 15: 17
              +1
              So it is about that.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 9 March 2021 07: 17
    +9
    "in fact, self-aloof, under the guise of illness, army commander Vlasov", and then he was named in the order of Stalin, among those who distinguished themselves.
    There is no documentary evidence that he withdrew.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 9 March 2021 09: 30
      +8
      Such articles should be written, in general, it is necessary to think over each number and refer not to one book, but to a layer of literature and data from the Ministry of Defense's archive in Podolsk. But there is no such thing - and it is not worth taking. Only make people laugh!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 9 March 2021 09: 34
        +4
        And never think and think for scrap
  • kalibr
    kalibr 9 March 2021 09: 39
    +10
    Quote: tasha
    but our armies were powerful, as they say, with a special skill of the spirit. By the strength of the spirit. And the quality of this spirit. This is the quality of the Russian armies (as they were called then) and this quality of the spirit of the Soviet soldiers came as a complete surprise to the enemy.

    The rules of journalism and good literary Russian say that the same words can be used repeatedly no earlier than 50-100 words later. This is taught in universities ...
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 10: 15
    +16
    Frankly, I'm tired of watching Madame Frolova publicly laid out on a bench and flogged with rods after each of her idiotic coming-out "I'm a girl, I can." But with stupid stubbornness she drags her cheap profane writings to VO.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 18
      +5
      Here !!!! Hence the question - how long ??? Why? The second question. Why? The third question.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 15: 43
        +5
        Quote: Phil77
        Here !!!! Hence the question

        Comrade Mayakovsky also has a question:
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 16: 01
          +2
          I like your questions!
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 9 March 2021 10: 43
      +4
      The classic description of punishment with rods in Soviet historical literature - Chapygin's novel "Stepan Razin" looked like this: "The overweight voivod, squeezing the rods, came to life, stepped, legs apart,
      rested and hit: one!
      - Honor battles, girls!
      - What, boyarynya!
      - Here you are, you bitch! Here! How many fights, master?
      - Twenty for my shame is not much.
      The voivode continued to light candles.
      - How many?
      - Girls! ..
      - What are we: thirteen, fourteen ...
      - A little erepenes ... It must be not sad at the cha, Daria?
      - Already kudy sadche - look if it is.
      - Let me myself - the business is familiar!
      The voivode took a new bunch of rods from the girl, shook it in his hand, grunted and, hitting, pulled on himself.
      - A-ah! Ltd! - howled the beaten.
      - Well, Petrovich, you beat me sadche!
      - No, not yet ... here! and here!
      The voivode whipped and tugged at each blow.
      - There is a saddle, the bitch's ass is tight.
      By twenty blows, the girl did not scream. The voivode ordered to take it out into the yard, pour water on it.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 11: 57
        +5
        Quote: kalibr
        - There is a saddle, the bitch's ass is tight.

        laughing
        Congenially!
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 15: 30
        +3
        - There is a saddle, the bitch's ass is tight.


    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 9 March 2021 12: 19
      +4
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      tired of watching Madame Frolova being laid out in public

      Not madam she ... No.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 13: 30
        +8
        Quote: Olgovich
        Not madam she ...

      2. Alex013
        Alex013 9 March 2021 22: 29
        0
        Naturally! Samsonov ... And what is interesting, some articles are even nothing. And the style is completely different))
    4. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 9 March 2021 13: 14
      +6
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Frankly, I'm tired of watching Madame Frolova publicly laid out on a bench and flogged with rods after each of her idiotic coming-out "I'm a girl, I can." But with stupid stubbornness she drags her cheap profane writings to VO.

      Well this is what kind of willpower you need to have, watching it over and over again when you are already tired drinks ))
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 14: 26
        +4
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Well this is what willpower you need to have

        Strength of will?
        So yes - I have it.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 9 March 2021 10: 30
    +9
    I hope that the author will follow the path of Samsonov.
    At first, the audience was shocked and fucked up by such revelations with 500+ comments in the style of “well, it’s not right,” “why is it wrong with history,” then a couple of articles a week with a couple of dozen lazy remarks from bored readers.
    I cannot but note how the mass of folk-pop-Khryuchev lovers evaporated, enthusiastically demanding supplements after the first articles "for the truth about STALENA". Has love really passed? Irishka, irrespective of whether she has a beard or not, urgently needs to be told about the slandered personality of the leader, traitors, liberals and something else.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 9 March 2021 10: 48
      +4
      My friend, I love * smoks *! But Stalin has something to do with it! Although we served on the ** course ** in one unit, no?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 9 March 2021 11: 02
        +6
        But Stalin has something to do with it

        Well, Mrs. Frolova did it according to the classics E2-E4 and gave out the first article about his repression. Naturally, with the refrain "this is how it should be", "and nothing at all", "the liberals are lying" in accordance with the canons of the VO. And now the ardor of the fans has cooled down and it seems like there has even been an opupevat of the respectable audience. Therefore, my thought is that the author must return to the origins. Seeing the cherished mantras, Irishka will be understood, forgiven and loved again. Adi's Aquadiskotheque will sparkle with new colors.
        It is necessary to appease the steelists on the VO regularly

        More tender, Irishka, even more tender.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 March 2021 11: 06
          +3
          Aha! I understood you. So, we served together? Schneekopf?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 9 March 2021 11: 09
            +2
            So, did you serve together? Schneekopf?

            I do not tear myself away from the masses. Mulinsky garrison. Everything is according to the classics.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 9 March 2021 11: 12
              +2
              Where is it? Is it far from Torgau?
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 9 March 2021 11: 28
                +4
                Far away, not every liberal will spit it out, even if you wave the USSR coat of arms from there
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 9 March 2021 11: 43
                  +1
                  I repeat the question, was it far from Torgau? Schneekopf familiar?
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 9 March 2021 11: 46
                    +2
                    1.Very far away.
                    2. Not familiar
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 9 March 2021 11: 47
                      +2
                      Where they served!
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 9 March 2021 11: 49
                        +4
                        For whom did I write above?
                        Mulinsky garrison
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 10 March 2021 04: 36
                        +2
                        Sorry! Was wrong. Sorry;
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 10 March 2021 08: 23
                        +1
                        No problems.
                  2. Catfish
                    Catfish 9 March 2021 14: 23
                    +2
                    Seryoga, are you copying Skalozub? Get off the person. stop
  • Gvardeetz77
    Gvardeetz77 9 March 2021 10: 55
    +5
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Unfortunately, the author each time increases his personal "anti-rating". From article to article. I really want the editors to pay attention to the critical remarks in the comments and draw the appropriate conclusions. Or maybe it's worth going back to the practice of evaluating articles?

    They are already asking for this from the second (if not the first) article, but since they are constantly going "to print", then apparently the content is completely satisfied with the editorial board.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 9 March 2021 11: 19
    +12
    I didn’t read the article, I only read the conclusions.
    The conclusions are terrible, so there is no desire to read the article itself.
    1. depressant
      depressant 9 March 2021 11: 51
      +2
      This is the general opinion, Misha. Walking around Zen, I got used to such articles, choosing from them only useful facts, and, sighing heavily, I set out to comment on the topic, because it seriously hurt me. But my attempt failed completely, because no one is ready to discuss the material at a decent level, and to jibble - yes, please. And those who are ready are mired in the calculations of tanks, knocked out on one side and on the other, in the loss of manpower. But there was betrayal on the part of the rate, and what a bet! But, apparently, a serious, respected Author should start talking about him, and then they will comment seriously.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 9 March 2021 12: 10
        +11
        But there was betrayal on the part of the rate, and what a bet! But, apparently, a serious, respected Author should start talking about him, and then they will comment seriously.
        At present, only the Institute of Military History can be a serious author on the topic.
        The Supreme Command Headquarters, created on June 23, 1941, included S. K. Timoshenko, G. K. Zhukov, I. V. Stalin, V. M. Molotov, K. E. Voroshilov, S. M. Budyonny, N. G Kuznetsov.
        It would be very interesting to get acquainted with your point of view on the activities of these, in your opinion, traitors.
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 March 2021 12: 30
          +1
          In the comment above, I already wrote (I quote myself):

          “... as early as June 18, 1941, Stalin gave the order to bring the troops of the first strategic echelon to full combat readiness. the main blow of the enemy.
          This was directive number 1 - about which little was known for a long time.
          So, the directive, signed by Stalin back on June 18, came to the military districts only on the night of June 22, and at the same time it clearly stated: "Be in full combat readiness." That is, not to bring the troops into full combat readiness - you can lead them as long as you like, but immediately be in full combat readiness. And this order was given in advance. In fact, 4 days before the start of the war. So I have a question: were they carrying those sealed directive packets on the carts? "
          Stalin's directive N2 was and is widely known. And directive N1 is becoming known only now. That is, the marshals kept the directive, and only when it became known exactly when the hostilities would begin, in order to save their skins, they urgently facilitated the delivery of the directive to their destination, literally an hour before the war. In order to say on occasion, what are we, and we are nothing, we are not to blame.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 9 March 2021 13: 11
            +11
            On June 18, the Supreme Command Headquarters did not exist. Until June 23, 1941, there was a GVS KA - the Main Military Council of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, which had nothing to do with Directive No. 1 of June 21, 1941, it was prepared by the General Staff in the person of its chief, G.K. Zhukov and prepared it on June 21st. The document of June 18, which you mention, is not Directive No. 1, but a telegram from the General Staff on bringing the troops of the border districts to combat readiness (Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. M .: Voenizdat, 2011. Vol. 1. - P . 26). But unlike Directive No. 1, the original of which is kept in TsAMO, no one has ever seen the original of this directive and its existence, although very likely, is determined by indirect signs.
            А directive N1 becomes known only now.
            You are greatly mistaken. To be convinced of this, it is enough to read "Memoirs and Reflections" by Zhukov.
            You draw categorical conclusions without having practically any information for this.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 9 March 2021 20: 46
              +2
              You are greatly mistaken. To be convinced of this, it is enough to read "Memoirs and Reflections" by Zhukov.
              It, of course, Zhukov wrote an amusing memoir, but for some reason their beginning is very reminiscent of the end of Manstein's memoirs - what he would have done. if he had additional forces and means. In terms of objectivity in the initial period of the war, Zhukov, to put it mildly, is very biased.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 9 March 2021 20: 55
                +1
                The question was not about the partiality or impartiality of the memoirs, but about the mention of Directive No. 1, which, allegedly, became known only recently.
                1. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 9 March 2021 22: 00
                  +3
                  My friend's father, who started the war in the Baltic States, said that a couple of days before June 22, 1941, they were taken to the camps from the PPD, their unit met the German attack in ready trenches. To the south of Pavlov's area of ​​responsibility, there were also no such failures as in Belarus. So there was an order. And only in Belarus, for some reason, the division ended up in the Brest Fortress, and not at least in the camps. There was no such failure anywhere else. About the documents. In the 90s there was such a public figure - Viktor Imantovich Alksnis, the grandson of the repressed aviation commander. He wrote that at the end of the 80s he took in the archives of his grandfather's file. It was with the sheets removed. When he again decided to familiarize himself with this case in the mid-90s, for some reason it became even thinner than it was before. An example, of course, not entirely on the topic, but, I believe, by the mid-50s, many military and political leaders were tempted to clean up their biography. And they cleaned it out.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 10 March 2021 11: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Aviator_
                    My friend's father, who started the war in the Baltic States, said that a couple of days before June 22, 1941, they were taken to the camps from the PPD, their unit met the German attack in ready trenches. To the south of Pavlov's area of ​​responsibility, there were also no such failures as in Belarus.

                    But north of Pavlov's area of ​​responsibility, the failure was even steeper - despite the early withdrawal of troops from the PPD. Let me remind you that already on July 3, the Germans passed through the PribOVO and reached the old border. On July 4, the Ostrovsky UR was broken through and the city of Ostrov was occupied. By July 11, the fighting was already on the Luga line - on the distant approaches to Leningrad.
                    Quote: Aviator_
                    There was no such failure anywhere else.

                    Do not forget that two tank groups piled on the ZOVO at once. While the district had only one "old" MK - the 6th.
                    To the south in KOVO there were as many as two and a half "old" MKs - 4th, 8th and December 9th.
                    1. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 10 March 2021 19: 03
                      0
                      Let me remind you that already on July 3, the Germans passed through the PribOVO and reached the old border.

                      Nevertheless, the boiler, as in Belarus, was not there. And if our troops were withdrawn from the Brest Fortress, and not blocked there, it is unlikely that by June 28 the Germans would have been in Minsk. It was impossible to withstand the blow of trained and well-trained Germans at that moment, even on the Kursk Bulge, after 2 years. still had to retreat somewhat.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 9 March 2021 12: 33
        +5
        Quote: depressant
        a serious, respected Author must speak, and then they will comment seriously.

        It is impossible to comment seriously on the topic of "betrayal". It is all the same that seriously comment on the article "The Political History of the Anunnaki State in the Eastern Mediterranean."
        Just like it is impossible to comment on sentences like
        And although we were not strong at that time, our armies were powerful, as they say, with a special skill of the spirit. By the strength of the spirit. And the quality of this spirit.

        Just some kind of feast-spirit. wassat
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 March 2021 12: 53
          +4
          Okay. I'm leaving.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 9 March 2021 13: 43
            +7
            I am ready to continue in PM if you are interested in this topic. As for today's article, it is difficult to review it in literary language.
            1. depressant
              depressant 9 March 2021 14: 01
              0
              I do not insist that the topic is presented in a quality manner, those present know better. I just use open source. This is what the historian and analyst A.I. Fursov:

              “In books on the history of the Great Patriotic War there is a photograph of directive number two, but directive number one for some reason is not. Directive number one is a directive in which Stalin explains to the leadership what to do. Strangely, this directive does not exist at all. Why not? The fact is that our large military leaders later justified their actions by the fact that Stalin, allegedly, had forbidden to return fire on the Germans if they invaded. That is why they behaved this way "...
              Not surprisingly, many supported the anti-Stalinist campaign after his death. There was something to be afraid of ...
              End of quote.

              Hence it follows that I have no reason to trust, say, Zhukov in this matter. Indeed, throughout my life, the topic has been discussed that Stalin was afraid that he was stunned by Hitler's treachery, that he closed for two weeks, etc. Probably, he was stunned - by the betrayal of his military leaders from the secret followers of Tukhachevsky. Although, of course, I suspected that there were such. But he had no others! And I had to urgently develop a different plan for running the company these weeks. With Pavlov, for example, he began to deal with after the war, but during the time - there was no time. And after that it was not really worth it. A victorious country shouldn't lose face.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 9 March 2021 14: 32
                +8
                Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you are not consistent. On the one hand, you write that "apparently, a serious, respected Author should start talking about him," and right there you refer to Mr. Fursov, who does not fit into this category in any way.
                His "quote" given by you does not correspond to reality from the word at all.
                Hence it follows that I have no reason to trust, say, Zhukov in this matter.
                I see no logic in this statement. In what way do you not trust Zhukov, that on 21.06.1941/1/XNUMX Directive No. XNUMX was drawn up? And at the same time believe Fursov that she was hidden? Pure oxymoron.
                Each question should be covered by a specialist knowledgeable in this matter. And when someone Fursov talks about the fact that in the Directive, drawn up a few hours before the start of the German attack, “Stalin explains to the leadership what to do,” this only says that he does not understand what he is talking about.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 9 March 2021 15: 05
                  0
                  The directive, or telegram, as it will later be called (by the way, the document is huge!), Was drawn up following the results of the final massive air reconnaissance with the participation of border guards on June 18, and not a few hours before the start of the fighting, and by the evening went to the troops.
                  Later, at the trial, the former commander of the Western Front, General Pavlov, and his chief of staff confirmed that on June 18, the General Staff's directive was adopted, but they did nothing to fulfill it. The chief of communications of the district through which the directive went, confirmed receipt of the directive by Pavlov. But the document, I repeat, not only was not accepted for execution by Pavlov, but, surprisingly, subsequently, it was not possible to find that paper. Of course, somewhere the entire document was preserved, but in preparation for the XX Congress, all copies of it that came to hand were destroyed, they say, they did not stand - to denigrate Stalin.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 9 March 2021 15: 22
                    +5
                    Directive, or telegram, as it will later be called
                    So what are we talking about, about Directive No. 1 dated June 21, 1941, which is stored in TsAMO, or about a hypothetical document dated 18.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, which, contrary to sound logic, was not recorded even in this document?



                    Moreover, the passage of such an important telegram did not leave any traces in the army document circulation at all. Did the marshals really hide everything so carefully?
                    Of course, somewhere the entire document was preserved, but in preparation for the XX Congress, all copies of it that came to hand were destroyed, they say, they did not stand - to denigrate Stalin.
                    You can't even imagine how many things had to be destroyed in order to hide the existence of such a document.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 9 March 2021 15: 47
                      +2
                      Victor Nikolaevich, that's it! I'm leaving, I'm leaving, I'm leaving!
                      They started, damned devils! wassat ))))
                      Well, at least with words ... Otherwise I'll be late, and the kicks will begin! ((((belay)))))
                      1. kalibr
                        kalibr 9 March 2021 16: 30
                        +4
                        No, dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna, no one wants to offend you. It's just that you are repeating stories about hidden and destroyed documents again, without knowing how much circumstantial evidence they have. It is practically impossible to remove a document from the archives without leaving a trace of it. By the way, this is the basis for most of the constructions of alternatives and ... ignoramuses. There is a point A and a point B. There is no connection between them, but it seems to be ... Ah, here is hidden document X, which connects them. It seems to be logical. But ... in fact, indirect evidence either refutes or confirms this. In this case, nothing confirms the existence of what Viktor Nikolaevich is talking about!
                      2. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 10 March 2021 11: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        It is practically impossible to remove a document from the archives without leaving a trace of it.

                        He-he-he ... on Tsushima somehow they figured out the amount of work to clean up documents from traces of a hypothetical hit of a torpedo from a K-21 to Tirpitz. Generally, circles on the water reached the documents of the Geheimstattpolitzai and British intelligence. And this is not to mention the need to clean up the local residents.
                  2. Phil77
                    Phil77 9 March 2021 16: 14
                    0
                    You are humiliated!
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 9 March 2021 16: 32
                      +2
                      Bad comment.
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 10 March 2021 03: 24
                      +2
                      I agree, sorry.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 15: 13
              0
              There is a very beautiful euphemism:
          2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 15: 03
            +2
            Quote: depressant
            that he was stunned by Hitler's treachery, closed for two weeks, etc. Probably, he was stunned - by the betrayal of his military leaders from the secret followers of Tukhachevsky.

            Poor, poor Koba ...
            Treason is everywhere ...
          3. ccsr
            ccsr 10 March 2021 19: 43
            0
            Quote: depressant
            “In books on the history of the Great Patriotic War there is a photograph of directive number two, but for some reason there is no directive number one. Directive number one is a directive in which Stalin explains to the leadership what to do. Strangely, this directive does not exist at all. Why not?

            There is nothing strange in this, because Directive No. 1, according to the accepted procedure in office work, was to be issued in January (at the latest in February) of 1941, and if desired, it can be found by this ordinal number. Everything that they write about Directive No. 1 sent to the districts at 23.45 on June 21, 1941, it did not have a number and went like b / n, i.e. without a number, and this is clearly visible on its text, which is in the archive. Later, in order to streamline the numbering of documents of the beginning of the war, it was assigned number one, as the first document of wartime, although in fact it was the last directive w / n of June 21, i.e. peacetime document.
            In general, this does not introduce much confusion, which is why both names of this Directive are used.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 9 March 2021 13: 22
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master

      And although we were not strong at that time, our armies were powerful, as they say, with a special skill of the spirit. By the strength of the spirit. And the quality of this spirit.

      Just some kind of feast-spirit. wassat

      Special skill of spirit and strength / quality ratio. Zaboristy was a spirit, if skillfully.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 March 2021 14: 39
        +1
        "And I don’t want to, but we must not miss such an opportunity." (from)

        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 48
          +2
          This is according to Guderian. Neutron.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 March 2021 14: 52
            +2
            The profile is similar to Zhyukov, history is silent. laughing
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 56
              +2
              Ahh ... Davy Crockett was out of control?
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 9 March 2021 15: 18
                +2
                No, the boys were joking. laughing

                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 9 March 2021 15: 47
                  +1
                  "Not a fig to myself sneezed" (c)
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 9 March 2021 13: 17
    +3
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    I didn’t read the article, I only read the conclusions.
    The conclusions are terrible, so there is no desire to read the article itself.

    Greetings, Michael! hi And in vain!
    "I do not like children, but the process itself" (c)
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 9 March 2021 14: 03
      +5
      Greetings Albert.
      Taught by bitter experience, I first decided to look at the author. I saw the conclusions. I read it, was horrified, wrote a commentary, that's the whole "History". But I didn't waste much time. smile
      This is not a process for which time is not a pity.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 30
        +2
        I won't argue, of course, but I neigh))
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 9 March 2021 14: 54
          +2
          Mikhail is a supporter of this treatment of similar authors.

          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 9 March 2021 14: 57
            +2
            Oh, Schaub what is the author chasing me with a pitchfork? what
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 9 March 2021 15: 01
              +2
              That is not, it is grandmother Evdokh who puts things in order among the amateur graphomaniacs. laughing
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 9 March 2021 15: 04
                +2
                Aaa ... don't chap Irina ... she will soon please us with something else, such as intercepting the BOPS spirit with a special skill.
  • alekSASHKA-36
    alekSASHKA-36 9 March 2021 14: 05
    0
    Very interesting, we are waiting for the continuation.
  • CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 9 March 2021 15: 00
    +2
    Statia avtora sploshnaya i neumelaya agitka vremen brezhnevovskoy Pravdi.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 9 March 2021 15: 11
    +5
    It turned out that the statement made by some experts that the Germans allegedly outnumbered the Red Army men in everything turned out to be incorrect. No, they did not surpass

    I read the memoirs of one of the signalmen from the Western Military District. He was just saying that the Germans in the tactical training of the infantry turned out to be outright better than the ordinary Red Army men. In particular, he says that his communications platoon defended itself in a bunker (!) Against only 3 Germans, but the Germans took him by a frontal assault and, as this veteran says, “we could not do anything about it, the Germans were very skillful and knocked out us from the bunker ".
    I repeat for those who did not understand, only 3 Germans successfully navigated the armed platoon, which was in a long-term fortification, head on. And this is far from an isolated episode.
    Therefore, I would warn would-be scribblers against strange statements. Maybe morally we were even stronger, but the training and preparation of the Wehrmacht in the summer of 41 could not overpower it. And this factor, until the beginning of 43, constantly manifested itself in battles - only by 43 the general level of training of the troops leveled off - many experienced soldiers were knocked out in the Wehrmacht, and our troops, on the contrary, retained quite a few battle veterans in their ranks. And in 44, in general, our troops were already significantly superior in training, quality of soldiers and skill, and so much so that they managed to successfully advance, having half the strength and, in fact, the situation repeated in 41 years, only the other way around. My grandfather said that the German was no longer "the same".
    And, curiously, even these, already badly battered and weakened Germans, hammered the allies in the tail and mane, if they were even close in strength.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 9 March 2021 15: 56
      -1
      Quote: yehat2
      ... Maybe morally we were even stronger, but the training and preparation of the Wehrmacht in the summer of 41 could not overpower.

      How it happened among the people - "for one beaten two unbeaten give"
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 15: 57
      +4
      Quote: yehat2
      In particular, he says that his communications platoon defended in a bunker (!) Against only 3 Germans, but the Germans took him by a frontal assault

      What an exciting story. Three Germans, who accidentally fought off their platoon, "navigated" a concrete cap with a platoon of Red Army men inside "right in the forehead" along the way.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 9 March 2021 16: 27
        +1
        I just remembered this typical case.
        and 3 Germans are a machine gun crew. They had some kind of light machine gun and it was not a fact that the MG-34 was possibly a Czech zbroevka.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 17: 09
          +4
          Quote: yehat2
          and 3 Germans are a machine gun crew.

          yes, yes, with a machine gun at the ready in the frontal on the bunker.
          We fantasize further - maybe they had a flamethrower?
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 9 March 2021 17: 16
            +1
            I'm not fantasizing, I just remembered an episode from a veteran's book. One of the many that I managed to read.
            But urya-posters and slogans that we will win by one will, having 3 million personnel, highly limited combat-ready and less trained divisions divided into 3.4 lines against 8 million Wehrmacht + allies (out of 11 available), look simply ridiculous. There were more Germans, they effectively concentrated their forces due to significantly better logistics, achieving 10-20 times the advantage at the necessary points, they were better trained. It was this, and not "betrayal", that caused the defeat of the Red Army on the border.
            I stopped reading books in the style of "urya" at the age of 8 - I realized that this was nonsense. It is strange that you are drowning for such a story. The situation in the quality of training of soldiers on both sides was very clear in the battles near Rzhev. There, heavy fighting, losses and the sending of reinforcements often changed the course of battles and the ratio of losses. Read the reports on both sides to make it clear what I mean.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 17: 22
              +4
              Quote: yehat2
              It is strange that you are drowning for such a story.

              for what other "such"?
              Quote: yehat2
              I stopped reading books in the style of "urya" already at the age of 8

              At 8 years old? Cool. Developed child. And you defended your candidate at 10?
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 9 March 2021 17: 25
                0
                Come on, troll in the forest. If I have not read anything from real and honest memories, I have nothing to discuss. Bravura books on both sides are considered arguments only by narrow-minded people.
                1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 17: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: yehat2
                  If you haven't read anything from real and honest memories

                  oh, there it is.
                  And who evaluates the memoirs for "honesty"? Are you not?
                  Well, good. The same episode "with the pillbox", which you liked so much, can be viewed from the point of view of one of the three heroic golds described in a hypothetical memoir ... And, I think, it will be quite bravura. But you are not a "narrow-minded person", and therefore, of course, you will prefer surrender sorrow.
                  In general, I fell in love with military memoirs twenty years ago. To quote passages from it as a final and undeniable argument is the lot of narrow-minded people.
                  1. yehat2
                    yehat2 9 March 2021 19: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    capitulatory sadness.

                    stop talking nonsense. not to admit that the Germans, after 6 months of study, 2 years of wars in Europe, were able to do something - that's real nonsense.
                    And about our troops - well, read the official reports at least about discipline and how many of these soldiers were "repressed" specifically in the West Military District.
                    Read Shaposhnikov's note on the implementation of strategic defense orders in 40. None were even half completed. In the Western Military District, systematic reporting fraud and complete tin were generally revealed, not only with massive non-observance of orders, but with banal execution of the charter in units. For which, in the end, in aggregate, Pavlov was executed, and not for the dibious version of "coward" or "retreated." Just as the commander, Pavlov in the early days was far from the last.
                    Do you think they are all capitulators?
                    Truth is objectivity. In June 41 For 1 soldier of the Wehrmacht there were 3-4 times more trucks, 2.5 times more horses than a soldier of the Red Army. Our artillery tractors drove 5-8 km / h (a vicious practice in the production of universal equipment), the German ones could 25-30. This is what logistics is. This is also your defeatist statistics ???? There are objective things, and there are subjective ones. Memories are subjective, but in the bulk of these messages, if you throw aside the frankly bravura and negative, somewhere you can find the middle. In the end, my grandfather in the infantry went through the whole war, he didn’t speak about the Germans as cheerfully as you did - he respected their ability to fight, which is probably why he survived himself.
                    And you ... should go to Donbass as a volunteer in order to get rid of the desire to impose an ideological hat-making crap on other people.
                    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 9 March 2021 21: 51
                      0
                      Quote: yehat2
                      And you ... should go to Donbass as a volunteer in order to get rid of the desire to impose an ideological hat-making crap on other people.

                      Stop raving, dear, and handing out idiotic advice. Donbass is on my side, let them figure it out. And in throwing hats, I have never been seen, do not lie. People like you, passionaries, called me whoever they called - a nationalist, and a Germanophile, etc., etc. But with a hat-hanger - it's funny. You, my dear, believe those memoirs that you want to believe - your business, I don't give a damn. But do not impose your crap on others, like three infantrymen "head-on" "navigated" a concrete bunker with a machine gun at the ready.
                      Quote: yehat2
                      he didn’t talk about the Germans as cheerfully as you did

                      what the fuck, "shitty", do not screw nonsense. I did not expect at all that my skepticism about the epic assault on the bunker that you are rubbing in here will cause a seething of some substance.
                      1. yehat2
                        yehat2 9 March 2021 23: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        my skepticism

                        uh no, you expressed much more than skepticism
                        re-read your posts. And I answered quite harshly precisely because you not just stepped over the line, but just ran with all your unsightly carcass.
            2. mat-vey
              mat-vey 9 March 2021 17: 26
              +1
              Quote: yehat2
              they were better trained.

              They were already not only trained - they were already "practitioners." In the directions of the main blows there were units participating in the French campaign ..
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 9 March 2021 17: 27
                0
                Quote: mat-vey
                In the directions of the main attacks were units that participated in the French campaign

                Guderian ended up in Poland near Brest and, in 41, began his attack from literally the same positions.
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 9 March 2021 17: 29
                  0
                  Quote: yehat2
                  Guderian ended up in Poland near Brest and, in 41, began his attack from literally the same positions.

                  Before that, he "frolicked" in France ... Before 1941.
    3. ivan2022
      ivan2022 10 March 2021 08: 06
      +1
      Quote: yehat2
      memoirs of one of the signalmen from the Western Military District. He was just saying that the Germans in the tactical training of the infantry turned out to be outright better than the ordinary Red Army men. In particular, he says that his communications platoon defended in a bunker (!) Against only 3 Germans, but the Germans took him by a frontal assault

      "ZVO" - I suppose it's the Western Military District? It's good that it's not Zabaikalsky .... So that's the question; What did the "signalmen from ZVO" and EVEN THE WHOLE PLANT (!!!) COMMUNICATION do in the bunker? Did they lay a new line?
      Like; "We have them from machine guns, and they three of us LOBOV". This is not a memoir, but something much cooler than Rambo, just the opposite. This happens if "on the forehead" - and the brains first inside out, and then inserted into place upside down. Yes, we have most of the "Soviet" military-patriotic films in this spirit ... no one gets used to it.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 March 2021 11: 18
        0
        Quote: ivan2022
        This is not a memoir, but something much cooler than Rambo, just the opposite.

        I told him about this, but in response I received a hysterical about the hacking and advice to go to Donbass. laughing
        1. Andrey VOV
          Andrey VOV 10 March 2021 12: 03
          0
          I wonder how, the signalman, whom the Germans navigated in the bunker in 41, wrote his memoirs? They didn't take him prisoner? They let him go home immediately ??? nonsense ...
  • ZIS
    ZIS 9 March 2021 17: 00
    +2
    In bureaucratic terms, this division has already been assigned to the 21st Army. But we only wanted to follow her path.
    What division? At the aftor at the beginning of the current about the army ... In the indicated report ... It is difficult to make out without glasses, you need to have respect for the reader and give the text of the report. Vobchem lost interest in such research. Train, be understandable to those to whom you want to convey your thoughts and considerations. And I don’t have the leisure to waste time on research.
  • BAI
    BAI 9 March 2021 21: 45
    +1
    As a result of the massive attack of the enemy forces of the army, which accounted for the lion's share of the attacks of the German troops in the first days of the war, not only were they not defeated

    Not a single army, corps, division, which had the spearhead of the main attack, were destroyed. They suffered losses in men and equipment, but were not defeated. The troops were destroyed, which were on the sidelines of the main attack of the Germans. They were enveloped in ticks, there was no order to withdraw, the troops were surrounded and completely destroyed. Oddly enough, for a military unit to survive meant taking on the main blow of the Germans.
  • maiman61
    maiman61 10 March 2021 04: 30
    0
    Didn't even read! Because it's elementary simple! We were defeated in 1941-42, because we DIDN'T KNOW TO Fight!
    A good example is the Battle of Kursk. Soldiers under fire, generals with war experience, significant superiority in manpower, tanks, artillery, etc. For several months they dug in, EVERYTHING mined, created several lines of defense, ammunition, food, fuels and lubricants, everything was in abundance. But the Germans hit and barely resisted! BY THE LAWS of war, the attacking side should have superiority, and the Germans attacked in smaller numbers.
    The situation is absolutely the same with the economy today! For twenty years, we have just bubbled up snot, but there's no sense in it! In 2000, Russia was economically stronger than China, and over the past twenty years, China has become SUPERPOWER already surpassing the United States, and this president and I, apart from blowing snot bubbles, can do nothing!
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 10 March 2021 11: 53
      -2
      Quote: maiman61
      But the Germans hit and barely resisted! BY THE LAWS of war, the attacking side should have superiority, and the Germans attacked in smaller numbers.

      How! And according to the official. data the Germans had, together with a reserve of 1.9 million people,
      from the RKKA - 780 thousand according to German data. No army in the world ever does such a foolish thing as "attack in fewer numbers."
      Especially having such a sad experience as the defeat at Stalingrad.
      So it turns out "they barely resisted", "they barely won the war." ..... But then after 45 years not "barely" but just 100% everything about ... Ali. Question; "WHY?"

      Probably because the society of the descendants of serfs has exhausted its resources.
      The modern world is changing and a society with relationships of the 17th century should someday lag behind the general "train" going into the future. As the saying goes;
      "The good gentleman did not come and the great Tsar did not descend from the clouds, even the women stopped giving birth as before"! The main idea of ​​the successful has become: "It's time to blame." The gradual replacement of an archaic society by other peoples became obvious
      1. maiman61
        maiman61 10 March 2021 15: 56
        0
        Where did you get such nonsense! Do you know how many of our full complement armies were behind the Kursk Bulge? And due to them, the losses of the advanced units were replenished. Well, after all, you need to know basic things, and not information from the chamber pot of the kindergarten of the younger group! You have to study and READ a lot, then there will be information.
        Why? Because there are still many very stupid people like you!
    2. chenia
      chenia 10 March 2021 15: 50
      0
      Quote: maiman61
      But the Germans hit and barely resisted!


      Not ! They ran, although not very quickly, and even the Dnieper did not stop.
      True to the West. Four months later we ended up in Zhitomir.
      And this is 550 km west of Prokhorovka.
      They couldn't resist there.
      1. maiman61
        maiman61 11 March 2021 06: 32
        0
        It is advisable to know at least a little Russian. We barely resisted, it means that it was VERY hard, but we resisted. And the rest is bullshit!
        1. chenia
          chenia 11 March 2021 09: 07
          0
          Quote: maiman61
          And the rest is bullshit!


          After the holiday you have not yet departed, well, it happens.
          I will translate without irony (which you did not understand).
          Barely resisted - does not pass, since 9 army lines were prepared (the Germans, having lost their reserves, did not take the second) and the Steppe (reserve) front.
          Ours launched a counteroffensive (which means they retained reserves), after 4 months they took Zhitomir
          I will not explain further. I think you will reach it yourself.
          1. maiman61
            maiman61 12 March 2021 07: 56
            0
            I won't even explain. Difficult to explain to a person with mental disabilities.
            1. chenia
              chenia 12 March 2021 09: 40
              0
              I will not explain further. I think you will reach it yourself.

              [quote = maiman61] Difficult to explain to a person with mental disabilities.

              You know better. This person (with a face not burdened with intelligence), whom you see in the mirror when you shave and know him, is really difficult to explain something.
              Sorry, I won't bother you anymore.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 10 March 2021 09: 27
    -1
    The article does not answer any questions, especially the one asked in the title. VO is degrading at a breakneck speed. For several days on the portal there is almost nothing to comment on ...
    My personal opinion on the topic, and not on a meaningless article, is the following. I believe that Stalin deliberately set himself up and set up the country. There was no exit. If the Red Army had put up really effective resistance to the Germans in 41, then Hitler would have got into direct allies not a half-dead brothel in the form of France and other Euro-dwarfs, but the United States and, indeed, England, with which he practically reached an agreement.
    However, frightened by an easy victory for Germany, which seemed to have already been achieved, the Anglo-Saxons decided otherwise. They needed Hitler's victory. But Germany had to be drained of blood for many decades. Therefore, military alliances have developed the way they did.
    The Germans already received extensive raw material and technological assistance from the United States. If they received it openly and in much larger volumes, and we did not, the USSR would not have resisted for anything. No amount of heroism could compensate for the "endless bullets" that the Reich would receive.
    And therefore, Stalin was clearly going to create the impression of weakness in the first weeks of the War, to lure the enemy deeper ... At the same time, he clearly did not realize the real weakness of the Red Army. Not being a military expert himself, Stalin relied on experts in such matters. And he had experts, alas, not one of the strongest ...
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 10 March 2021 20: 01
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      I believe that Stalin deliberately set himself up and set up the country.

      To be convincing, you would say that he was recruited by the Abwehr and was the most valuable agent in the entire history of the twentieth century.
      Quote: Mikhail3
      And therefore, Stalin was clearly going to create the impression of weakness in the first weeks of the War, to lure the enemy deeper ...

      Yes, you are a real strategist - burn further in the same spirit, this is directly pulling Kutuzov's plan into the First Patriotic War ...
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 March 2021 22: 02
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        Yes, you are a real strategist -

        And I liked this:
        Quote: Mikhail3
        VO is degrading at a breakneck speed.

        and further:
        Quote: Mikhail3
        In the first weeks of the War, Stalin was clearly going to create the impression of weakness, to lure the enemy deeper ...

        Cherry:
        Quote: Mikhail3
        At the same time, clearly not realizing the real weakness of the Red Army.

        So that's it - a cunning, but not informed Asian. laughing And the military - huh! - completely harness dumbass. Yesterday's clerks, rationers, tram conductors and forgiven enemies of the people. Csykyns and capitulators. And all this kublo, unfortunately, Comrade Stalin did not have time to put up against the wall (if you believe the d'ebils, who howl at the VO "shot a little !!!")

        It seems that he licked Stalin with his comments, but either in the wrong place, or unconvincingly.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 11 March 2021 13: 02
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          It seems that he licked Stalin with his comments, but either in the wrong place, or unconvincingly.

          This is noticeable - a person suffers from hatred of Stalin, so he is looking for a "version" of how to present him as an idiot or a traitor.
        2. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 12 March 2021 10: 08
          -2
          You guys are just cool guys. Wonderfully reminiscent of the "good old days". Those same Stalinist ones, yeah. I don’t know if you can read (it’s unlikely), in general, everything is as it was then. People in the country were divided into different kinds of "groups". Well, this is how the party fighters and, unfortunately, the law enforcement agencies saw it. In principle, people were not even judged, they were simply identified by belonging to some group, and treated accordingly. Here he is, for example, a Trotskyist. While Trotsky was in power - double rations and a high position in the navy. Trotsky is gone - removal from office, investigation, camp or execution. Well, the rest of the groups are the same. The governing bodies of the party decide that Zinoviev is an enemy (he was an enemy, as I understand it), and all people identified as "Zinovievites" are repressed without looking at anything else. The Zinovievites, why should I feel sorry for them ?!
          If I am not an enthusiastic Stalinist, then I am a liberal. So that is all. Sorry guys. I belong to the party of reality. Therefore, we hate all your groups at the same time. Because your groupthink does not accept any reality in any form. You are trying to understand life from the point of view of complete approval of the doctrines of your group, and the most severe condemnation of all other groups, this is the main and main thing for you.

          You understand nothing, absolutely nothing in reality, and you have no chance to understand at least something. Since reality does not care what kind of groups you are stuck in here. It happens as it happens, and in order to understand the phenomenon, it must be considered completely anew each time, without looking at any previous sympathies, antipathies, convictions, friendship and enmity. Objectively.
          But you are not looking for objectivity, you are looking for "like-minded people". You don't really care if you think right with them or not. You want to be together. Nice approach for a cactus lovers club. In life, it leads to disaster, the USSR will confirm.
          With immeasurable sympathy ...
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 March 2021 11: 13
            0
            A heartfelt speech. laughing It's funny that I mostly agree, yes. With the amendment that I personally have never belonged to any "groups" and did not strive to solidarize with anyone. I am a misanthrope, not a collective farmer. Primitive stamp
            Quote: Mikhail3
            If I am not an enthusiastic Stalinist, then I am a liberal.
            there is also a place to be - the tunnel thinking of nerds whining "anti-Soviet - always Russophobe" - this is mold in the corners of the VO. You can't get rid of it. If you do not sing hosanna to Comrade Stalin with them, it means an enemy. But these labels don't bother me at all. I sneezed at these circles of lovers of death and table-turning with the evocation of the spirit of Koba.
            1. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 12 March 2021 11: 46
              +1
              Alas, you are wrong about yourself) "Licked Stalin" Hehe ... You are trying to solve the problems of the state level with an emotional key. You hate Stalin. At this level of thinking, such an approach is completely meaningless. But it is he who is now experiencing a renaissance. The groups united by low emotions and primitive feelings persecute each other (the liberal get-together simply shouts, the "communists" carry nonsense that was suppressed at the end of the century before last), completely oblivious to what was happening around and what was happening then.
              I advise you to think about why my post "mostly agree" with your thinking, but the conclusions are suddenly not what you expected. I'll give you a hint. What is the difference between scientists and Scientologists?
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 March 2021 12: 26
                0
                Quote: Mikhail3
                You hate Stalin.

                Why do you think so? I am absolutely absolutely equal to him - just a historical figure in the pantheon of the 20th century. Next to Paul Pot, Mao, Churchill, Hitler and other outstanding people. I hate obsessive Stalin-phrenics who demand from everyone to talk about their idol with a breath. Here they are - yes, they really annoy with their stupid messianism. From the sidelines, I watch the merry lists of inspired heroes, so funny accusing each other of a stupid "rewriting of history" and trying to change something in the past.
                1. Mikhail3
                  Mikhail3 12 March 2021 12: 30
                  0
                  You continue your emotional rush. It's boring, the premieres of large and small theaters are not discussed here. Good luck.
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 March 2021 12: 32
                    0
                    Quote: Mikhail3
                    Good luck.

                    Thank. Always with me.
      2. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 11 March 2021 09: 05
        -3
        If you cannot sleep because of hatred for me, I can recommend barbiturate drugs. Or roll vodka more often. But it's funny to spread your teeth gnashing here. I have a version. Since I do not have a documentary base, I presented it as a version, warning about it.
        In response, you attacked not the version, but me. To be convincing, I can only say that you are clearly inadequate, which is what you are writing about here. Very sorry)
  • dgonni
    dgonni 10 March 2021 11: 01
    +1
    For the author! The convoy battalion of the NKVD fought to the end in the Brest Fortress!
    The entire main body of the divisions captured by the Austrians in the first days of the war was in fact disbanded to their homes!
    And the escorts, taking the Austrians prisoner, out of habit, immediately leaned them against the wall. That, as it were, the issue of captivity was immediately canceled.
    For the 5th army! The Korosten UR was not fully occupied by the army!
    70 percent of the pillboxes were destroyed by their own troops during the retreat! On those where the troops managed to occupy and gain a foothold, the battles went on for up to 2 months!
    And yet there, in the forests of the still buried mountain weapons! In boxes and grease.
    After rolling back beyond the Desna, the Germans, having received a lesson in actions in a wooded area, the army was still defeated.
    P.S. In 2001, veterans of the 5th Army and Doyches who fought in those places in 41 were gathered near Korosten. We took them to the places of the battles. And already at a wide table they asked the Germans what has changed over so many years?
    Do you know what the answer was?
    NOTHING! Only some roads were paved!
  • Oleg Aviator
    Oleg Aviator 10 March 2021 17: 59
    +5
    Read the book of memoirs of fighters deadly fire awaits us. There are surviving tankers, scouts, drivers. That is, all those who had a hard time surviving were. A very good description of the fights and inner mood without any unnecessary tinsel. In particular, the tanker assesses the combat capabilities of BT and T3. As equals. On seven of ours, five of them are lost. If T34 was present, then the battle was obviously a win in our favor. In such cases, the Germans called in aviation and this decided the outcome of the battle. We had problems with aviation and there was nothing to fight back with an attack aircraft.
  • tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
    tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 10 March 2021 19: 16
    0
    (instead of the commander Vlasov, who actually removed himself under the guise of illness) - I have not heard. For more details, please. Otherwise, his photos (along with other generals) were in Pravda as defenders of Moscow ...