Betrayal of 1941: the turmoil of the first days

The first year of the Great Patriotic War is one of the most mysterious periods in the life of the Soviet Union.

It is incomprehensible and vague as well for descendants and for all those who then met this year 1941 in the ranks of the armed forces of the USSR.

Absurdly absurd time. When contrasts coexisted at the same time.

On the one hand, the feat of those who defended our borders in those days is well known. When the Brest Fortress fought to the last breath and to the last cartridge. When the pilots in the very first hours of the war went to air rams.

On the other hand, a paradoxically large number of soldiers surrendered.

So what was really going on there? What was the reason for such an obvious dissonance?

We tried to analyze the various points of view of specialists on this matter. And we will present to you their quintessence in the series "Betrayal of 1941".

Where is the truth?

What explanations for such a contradictory development of events were not given.

Some of the experts are spreading the version that Stalin, of course, is to blame. And that his purges of commanders may have just beheaded the army on the eve of the war.

And the liberals, so they went even further. They spread a rumor that, they say, human rights were so violated in the USSR that people allegedly almost dreamed of running out of this unbearable social hell themselves. And supposedly that is why they were downright delighted with the beginning of the war ...

Nonsense, but someone believes ...

There are those who praise the military qualities of the German army, and also argue that it was useless to resist their superiority.

There are many discussions on this topic.

Of course, not so many people in the USSR then allowed themselves to publicly say at least something on this score, more or less approaching the truth.

At that time, not every sergeant, lieutenant or lieutenant colonel could see the actual state of affairs from a bird's eye view. Not all generals, by the way, too.

Only at the highest level of the military headquarters could the true situation be known. And then, perhaps, if only from the capital. Or from the height of commanding the fronts.

Although it is known from the real state of affairs that even the front-line headquarters did not fully control the situation. In this connection, therefore, not one hundred percent objective data were sent to the capital, to put it mildly.

So what happens? It turns out that the truth did not reach the very top leadership? And Stalin, Zhukov and Konev did not know the whole real truth?

That is, they did not have the completeness of the picture?

The question squarely

Nevertheless, as practice shows, historical the truth, after all, always exists and seeps into the people. Sometimes talented scientists just try to calculate it in their minds. To do this, they try to pose specific questions.

You will say that it is as easy as shelling pears. In fact, this is not the case.

To formulate the right question is an art that only a few can master. Many of us not only do not know how to do this, but also do not try to learn.

But the truth is revealed just when on

"A question clearly posed to nature ... a completely unambiguous answer is expected: yes or no",

according to the apt remark of S.I. Vavilov.

Is it possible to investigate what happened in 1941 from this point of view? Let's try, why not?

Was the Red Army really that much weaker than the German armed forces?

If we follow the general logic about the events of that time, then this answer should be

"Yes".

At that time, the Germans already had more than one won campaigns behind them on the territory of the European continent.

In addition, experts also note as a positive feature of the Germans - a well-tuned system of information exchange in the branches of the armed forces.

For example, in detail the very principles of interaction aviation with the ground forces were honed for about two and a half years by the formation of the military aviation of Nazi Germany by the Condor legion in the process of supporting local nationalists in the Spanish civil war there.

Interestingly, one of the participants in that civil war in Spain in 1936-1939 on the side of the Francoists, who received the rank of colonel in Spain, and then major general (1938), and then in November 1938 was appointed the last commander of the Condor legion ”, Was Wolfram von Richthofen. His contribution to the theory of interaction between the German combat arms is somewhat underestimated. But at the beginning of the war, he commanded German aviation in the area of ​​the Soviet South-Western Front.

Richtofen, as experts say, nevertheless

"He overestimated the role of tactical aviation operations, believing that its main purpose was to support the offensive of ground forces."

Link

By the way, he was the nephew of that very famous German military pilot of the First World War, known as the "Red Baron", Manfred von Richthofen.

This is in theory.

Breaking practice

But practice has shown a completely different result.

It turned out that the Germans did not succeed in completely destroying, that is, defeating, precisely those of our armies, to which they threw just significantly (if not extremely) superior forces and means.

How, tell me, this could happen?

Those, on whom the enemy directed all the force of his powerful blow, survived?

Moreover, just these domestic military units, as it turned out later, fought for a very long time and became a bone in the throat of the German blitzkrieg. Yes, it was they who created endless problems for the fast and unhindered advance of the Nazis deep into our country.

Isn't that an eloquent “no” to the question posed above?

Let's move on to some illustrative examples. First, the diagram.

On the line Baltic Sea - Carpathians, the offensive of the fascists was reflected by 3 of our fronts: North-West, West and South-West (from north to south). If we count from the Baltic, then the armies were located in the following order:

Northwestern Front: 8th and 11th armies.

Western Front: 3rd, 10th, 4th armies. (Plus the 13th Army is behind him in the Minsk fortified area (UR)).

Southwestern Front: 5th, 6th, 26th and 12th armies.

On the first day of the war, June 22, 1941, the shock offensive of the fascists tank wedges were directed at the armies of the 8th and 11th, as well as the 4th and 5th.

Let's try to track what happened to these armies in the future during the Great Patriotic War?

Flaming Northwest

It was the 8th Army that met this period in the most difficult situation. After all, she needed to retreat to the territory of the unfriendly and spiteful Baltic.

So, the units of this army in a month retreat to Estonia. The Germans are pressing. Ours are defending themselves. And they retreat. They fight and retreat again. Fascists of the 8th Army are attacking and crushing. But do they not destroy it completely in the very initial period of the war?

Try to find in the memories of the Germans stories about the mass surrender of units of the 8th Army - there was no such thing.

And where in German books are stories about the mass surrender of the Red Army in the Baltic states? I do not have it either. And you can't even find episodes.

Moreover, the soldiers of the 8th Army and the Red Navy fought so desperately for the city of Liepaja that some researchers indicate that this city could even apply for the title of "hero city".

Moving on to the 11th Army.

Let's remember what happened on the first day of the war.

The 11th mechanized corps, which some recognized as the weakest (in composition) in almost the entire Red Army, rushed at the enemy with its light T-26s. Yes, yes, ours are attacking there. Moreover, the Soviet troops are pushing the Germans out of the border. Moreover, no orders for counterattacks had even been received at that time.

From the memoirs of Major Commander of the 57th Tank Regiment of the 29th Panzer Division Joseph Cheryapkin:

"June, 22. The Nazis walked with their sleeves rolled up and their uniforms collars unbuttoned, firing aimlessly from machine guns. I must say, it made an impression. I even had a thought, as if our battle formations would not falter.

I ordered to let the Germans come closer and open fire for sure. They did not expect any serious resistance from us, and when they were hit by a hurricane of fire from tank cannons and machine guns, they were stunned. The enemy infantry immediately lost their attacking fervor and lay down.

The ensuing tank duel ended not in favor of the Nazis.

When more than half of the German tanks and armored personnel carriers caught fire, the enemy began to withdraw.

The regiment also suffered losses. Having gasoline engines and weak armor, the T-26 and BT tanks flashed from the first hit of the shell. Only the KV and T-34 remained invulnerable.

In the second half of the day, we, by order, retreated to Grodno.

On June 23 and 24, the regiment as part of the division fought with the advancing enemy southwest and south of Grodno.

By the end of the third day of the war, less than half of the tanks remained in the ranks. "

Link

Yes, in the battles of the next few days (after June 22), the 11th mechanized corps will lose all of its tanks. But who surrendered there without a fight? There were none. On the contrary, the same counterattacks by light tanks of this 11th Army of the North-West Front will go down in the history of the war as the battle of Grodno.

The enemy did not expect this. Here is what the chief of the German General Staff F. Halder writes in his war diary (entry dated June 29, 1941) as the impressions of the German inspector general of the infantry Ott about the battles in the Grodno region:

“The stubborn resistance of the Russians makes us fight according to all the rules of our military manuals.

In Poland and in the West, we could afford certain liberties and deviations from statutory principles; now it is unacceptable. "

Link

Yes, this 11th Army is also retreating under the onslaught of superior enemy forces. But every time she fights for our land, for every city, for every inch of it. And although it was impossible to hold the position for a long time. But they fought. They existed as an army.

At first, communication with higher headquarters was lost. And there was even a moment when Moscow did not know anything about its existence. But the army did not surrender to the enemy. She was and continued to fight.

Gradually, the headquarters of this army got oriented and even saw the enemy's most vulnerable spot - the flanks. It is into these weakly covered flanks that our units are biting. And they hold back the wedge of German tanks aiming at Pskov, stopping the enemy's push for several days.

And then this army did not disappear anywhere. It also acts as a military formation in the Red Army's offensive in the winter of 1941-1942.

Having considered the actions of these two armies in the early days of the war, a preliminary conclusion can be drawn.

The 8th and 11th armies of the Northwestern Front were in the thick of it. Both of them were subjected to a powerful first blow by the German forces of the aggressor. But they were not suppressed or destroyed by this. Were not broken. The servicemen continued to fight and resisted.

The facts of mass surrender of soldiers and officers in these two armies are not recorded.

But what about the surrender in other armies in the first days of the war? About this in the following materials.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Sling cutter]

The cadre units of the Red Army fought very steadfastly, and this is a fact.

[Ross xnumx]

The facts of mass surrender of soldiers and officers in these two armies are not recorded.

I would not make statements so categorically about the mass surrender of Soviet soldiers. Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained.
It was the loss of command and control of the troops that made them a common gathering of people in gymnastics. Where there was experience of some kind of hostilities, where the assigned tasks did not require additional instructions, there was resistance.
In addition, one should not discount Goebel's propaganda about the complete defeat of the Red Army and even the fact that in connection with the capture of weapons depots by the German troops, the army had (according to the recollections of the front-line soldiers) one rifle for three.
Today it is easy to argue how the victorious people in the first days of the war massively surrendered. Therefore, they won, that the Germans had no place for prisoners?
UNSUFFICIENT ... Here is the most appropriate definition for this.

[mat-vey]

Quote: ROSS 42

Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained

In the first wave of prisoners there were many "construction battalions" .. they were not supposed to do anything else, and the contingent was picked up on the same principle that they were always in construction units ..

[geniy]

In the first wave of prisoners there were many "construction battalions" .. they were not supposed to do anything else

And what - didn't the construction battalions have rifles at all and they didn't even know how to shoot?

[mat-vey]

Quote: geniy

And what - didn't the construction battalions have rifles at all and they didn't even know how to shoot?

Their tasks were different - to hastily build fortifications ...

[geniy]

Their tasks were different - to hastily build fortifications ...

You know that many had completely different tasks, while everyone had rifles. More precisely, everyone should have. For example, the gunners fired from cannons, but there were rifles. Miners mined or, on the contrary, removed mines, but there were rifles, Radio operators established communications, but there were rifles. Anti-aircraft gunners fired at the planes, but there were rifles. The cooks were preparing food - but there were rifles. Vozniki brought supplies, but they had rifles.

[mat-vey]

None of that there is very much to the fig just were freely hired?

[kalibr]

Quote: mat-vey

None of that there is very much to the fig just were freely hired?

Maybe you also indicate the numbers and a link to their source?

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

But no: my grandfather was led along the line of the Pope as part of a column in September 1941 to form a military unit somewhere in the north of Ukraine. Of course, no weapons. They walked in a huge column to the west to some sort of collection point. And suddenly, parallel to the column, German tanks and motorcycles appeared from both sides. And the columns, as they walked, continued to go west only already in captivity. Then - a camp in Poland and three years of hard labor in the Baltics. In January 1945, ours released them and without any checks immediately to the front line. Until May 1945, my grandfather had already received a medal "For Courage" and the Order of the Patriotic War (I don’t remember the degree, sorry). In the fall of 1945, he fought with Japan, and was demobilized at the end of 1947. They said so - he fought a little, so serve the Motherland even in peacetime, but he was not offended and honestly served somewhere in Transbaikalia.

[aglet]

"In January 1945, ours released them and without any checks right there on the front line. Until May 1945, my grandfather had already received the medal" For Courage "and the Order of the Patriotic War."
oh, these storytellers .... the baltics were liberated in 1944. the check of persons who were in captivity was always carried out, especially in 1945, when it was no longer necessary to urgently find reinforcements. and it was extremely difficult to get two awards in such a short time. Order of the Patriotic War, if your grandfather had it, most likely, II degree, and received in the 90s. then all the veterans were handed over who survived

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

It was the region of Konigsberg, that is, the Baltic states. There was also a camp where they were and worked. So, definitely January 1945. According to him, the check lasted half an hour in the form of interrogation. Moreover, his documents were with him.
Further, grandfather fought north of Berlin and for repelling the breakthrough of the Germans in the tenths of May (after the Victory), they gave him the order.
My grandfather also fought in the Finnish war, but he had no awards there.
But for the war with Japan there was definitely a medal, or even two.
But until the 1990s, my grandfather did not live - he died in the winter of 1979: his stay in these camps during the war affected, and the cold was strong in the Finnish war - he brought asthma from the war. Cough has always tormented him, as long as I can remember.

[aglet]

"It was the region of Konigsberg, that is, the Baltic states"
königsberg is prussia. the baltics is estonia.
"But for the war with Japan there was definitely a medal, or even two."
a medal for victory over Japan was given to all participants, but one at a time.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Apparently, you are a geography teacher? For me personally, that Prussia, that East Prussia, that the Baltic States are one and the same. Isn't it the coast of the Caribbean or the Sea of ​​Okhotsk?
And for the war with Japan, I don't remember exactly how many medals there were - I visited this grandfather no later than 1978, and in January 1979 he suddenly died.
And, in general, do not be clever.

[aglet]

"For me personally, that Prussia, that East Prussia, h"
I don’t want to offend you, but all over the world, in geography and history, this is how it is considered. you can scribble your opinion on the wall
"And, in general, do not be clever."
and what, can you forbid me? I am not making such claims to you, I understand that you are not capable of anything more, in spite of your grandfather, as a bae, a veteran.

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"It was the region of Konigsberg, that is, the Baltic states"
königsberg is prussia. the baltics is estonia.

Baltic (Latvian. Baltija [1], lit. Baltija, Est. Baltimaad) - a region in Northern Europe], including modern Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia (collectively called the Baltic countries or Baltic countries), as well as the former East Prussia (including including the Kaliningrad region of Russia) In the west it comes into contact with the Baltic Pomorie.
Königsberg [1] (Russian Korolevets, Lat. Regiomontium, German Königsberg, German: [ˈkøːnɪçsˌbɛʁk] (Listen to sound), Prussian Kunnegsgarbs, Knigsberg; completely Königsberg-in-Proysen, German Königsberg in Preussii lit. Karaliaučius, Polish Królewiec, Czech Královec) - a city, the administrative center of the German province of East Prussia from 1773 to 1945. A month and a half after the end of World War II, on October 17, 1945 [2], it was transferred under the jurisdiction of the Soviet Union, and in 1946 [3] [4] [5] it was renamed Kaliningrad.

[gsev]

Quote: mat-vey

Baltic (Latvian. Baltija [1], lit. Baltija, Est. Baltimaad) - a region in Northern Europe], including modern Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia (collectively called the Baltic countries or Baltic countries), as well as the former East Prussia (including including the Kaliningrad region of Russia) In the west it comes into contact with the Baltic Pomorie.

The Baltic, in the Russian sense, is a territory annexed to the USSR after 1940 with access to the Baltic Sea. Under the tsar, the Baltic States were called Livonia. Back in the 1970s, I remember that Western Belarus and Western Ukraine were often mentioned as a separate geographic area. As far as I know, many Lithuanians consider the Kaliningrad region to be Lithuania Minor. Apparently Poles this region together with Klaipeda East Pomerania. The Finns distinguish Estonia as a separate region not related to Latvia and Lithuania. In the Baltic countries, the expression of the Baltic country is now in vogue, with at least Sweden being included in the Baltic.

[mat-vey]

Quote: gsev

Under the tsar, the Baltic States were called Livonia.

And where did you go to Courland and Livonia?

[aglet]

"and for repelling the breakthrough of the Germans in the tenths of May"
and where was this breakthrough?

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Grandfather said that there were a couple of fierce battles after May 9, but he did not ask where exactly. And even then I was not interested in it. My grandfather told me, but I didn't ask much. Did you ask your relatives a lot in childhood?

[aglet]

"Did you ask your relatives a lot in childhood?"
my father also fought, and I, to my shame, also did not ask. then everyone was like that, everyone fought. but if you start talking about the exploits of your grandfather, take care of at least today's data. I, 15 years ago, by name and nickname, was able to find a colleague of my father

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Okay, dear! Have a nice day and let's not fight! I do not have a time machine to hit the road in 1976 or 1977 and talk to my grandfather ... But then there was one more nuance - my late grandfather (by my father) was Ukrainian and lived in the city of Priluki, Chernigov region, Ukrainian SSR. I came there to visit as a schoolboy on summer vacation once a year. And how do you think a Russian-speaking schoolboy from the Gorky region communicated with a half-deaf Ukrainian-speaking grandfather? That's right, with difficulty. Whatever one may say, there was a language problem in the former USSR. And the boy was not only talking about the war, okay to you! ...

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Well, what can be found and what not ... For example, the colleagues of our relative on the line of mother, Puzanov Sergei Vasilyevich, born in 1885, a native of Nizhny Novgorod, a lieutenant in the army of Kolchak, repressed in the USSR, accidentally on the website "VGD "We found ten years ago - more precisely, I was found by the granddaughter of a white general who fought in Transbaikalia, where our ancestor was captured by the Reds.
But according to the grandfather of the mother's line, Shmelev Nikolai Nikolaevich (1910-1944), a native of the city of Ardatov, Nizhny Novgorod province, who fought in the 160th (Gorky) SD - it seems that not so long ago this is compared to the GV, but there are questions: my grandfather was wounded and died in a hospital in May 1944 in Volyn (this is now Ukraine), and the 160th division was not even close at that time. The 160th division is in the funeral. And who to believe? And by the way, according to Wikipedia, the 160th SD in 1944 already wore a different number. Is it a mystery again? And to find colleagues after so many years - what are you talking about ... Their children are no longer alive. Like this.

[Serg koma]

Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko

according to Wikipedia, the 160th SD in 1944 already wore a different number. Is it a mystery again?

There are other sources besides Wiki.
160 SMALL DIVISION
Renamed from the 6th Moscow Rifle Division of the People's Militia.
It was a member of the Western and 2 Belorussian fronts.
Periods of joining the active army - 26.9.41-1.2.44
1.3.44-9.5.45

160 SMALL DIVISION
It was a member of the Central, Bryansk, Southwestern and Voronezh fronts.
Periods of joining the active army - 5.7.41-18.4.43
Converted to 89 Guards. sd 18.4.43 g.

Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko

And by the way, according to Wikipedia, the 160th SD in 1944 already wore a different number. Is it a mystery again?

Solving the "riddle" - exclude by date 160 SD converted into 89 Guards
We open ZhBD 160 SD for May 1944. and we get an answer to the statement

Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko

and the 160th division was not even close at that moment.

Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko

wounded and died in a hospital in May 1944 in Volyn (this is now Ukraine)

We look at the map from 01.05.1944/04.05.1944/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX

We draw a conclusion - 160 SD in May 1944 fought in Volyn, and in particular in the Volyn region.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Thank you, comrade! By the way, a relative from my homeland (Nizhegorodskaya, aka Gorkovskaya oblast) did not send something similar recently either. Thank you so much!!!

[Serg koma]

Quote: Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko

By the way

Infu sent in a personal.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Thanks a lot! Didn't expect it, however.

[Lara Croft]

Quote: aglet

Order of the Patriotic War, if your grandfather had it, most likely, II degree, and received in the 90s.

Where does this infa come from about this order?

[aglet]

"Where does this infa about this order come from?"
what is she? about the 90s, or about the second degree? so this is no secret, I don’t remember exactly the number, I’m reluctant to look, but around the 90s all veterans who were alive by that time were awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the 2nd degree

[Lara Croft]

Quote: aglet

"Where does this infa about this order come from?"
about the 90s, or about the second degree? so this is no secret, I don’t remember exactly the number, I’m reluctant to look, but around the 90s, all veterans who were alive by that time were awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the 2nd degree

I just saw this order in a box with my grandmother, along with other medals, the Order of the Red Star, and it was in the early 80s, to what extent I don't remember ...
Now I am collecting information about the 50th Army (both the first and second formations), in which she served, there is little information ...
But I was lucky in the newspaper of one regional center where she lived there is an article about her in the newspaper, I took a lot of information from there ...

[KVIRTU]

My grandfather was handed by May 9, 85, the April decree.

[boriz]

"... and there were rifles ..." Did you see it yourself?
I can see how the cook prepares food, and the rifle is on his shoulder! And the miner disarms the mine - with a rifle.
In wartime, they may have been armed, but weapons were somewhere on the sidelines. And it wasn't a rifle. Carbine, pistol, PPSh (or PPS).
All military builders who built fortifications in the western districts built it in peacetime. The war began, as it were, suddenly. And in peacetime, the construction battalion was not armed. I am in 1985-87. served as an officer in the construction battalion. There were, in my opinion, four active submachine guns per battalion. They were taken to the shooting range 2 time in 1 years. And there were several machine guns drilled to take the oath. And that's all.
And the whole country knew about it. There was even an anecdote:
What are the most terrible and efficient troops in the Soviet army? Someone calls the Airborne Forces, some special forces, etc. The correct answer was - the construction battalion, the soldiers there are so terrible that they are afraid to give them weapons.

[Alien From]

A shovel in your hands!

[aglet]

"Vozniki brought supplies, but they had rifles"
the convoymen, even, in my opinion, according to the state, had one rifle for three. from this, legends began that the Red Army did not have enough weapons. the construction battalion had even fewer weapons, they studied it, training, and even fired, but that's all. They did not know the tactics of battle, they had no means of reinforcement, they stood on the very border, they built the Molotov line, they did not interact with the troops of the NKO, they belonged to another department, and there was a corresponding contingent. therefore they fell and surrendered en masse. although, of course, there were not so many of them, to the total mass of prisoners

[mat-vey]

According to the plan approved by the Council of People's Commissars on February 12, 1941, 1941 million rubles were allocated for defense construction in 930. Of this amount, 459 million rubles were allocated to the Baltic military district, 222 million to the Western and 81 million rubles to the Kiev military district. The distribution of funds for defensive construction, of which almost half was intended for the Baltic Military District, indicates that it was there that the Soviet troops intended to conduct a stubborn defense, and in the south-western and left sectors of the western direction they counted, as envisaged by the operational plan, after repelling German attacks - to attack. The Military Council of the Baltic Military District was instructed that the construction of fortified areas is the most important government assignment for 1941, to the implementation of which the main efforts of the district personnel should be directed.

The troops of the Baltic and Western military districts were ordered to cover the border with East Prussia as firmly as possible. In connection with the opening of the concentration of a large group of German troops south of Polesye, an additional 252 million rubles were allocated to the Kiev military district. for the construction of fortified areas.

To organize and manage defensive work along the new state border, the Office of the Chief of Construction (ONS) and 138 construction sites were created. 84 construction battalions, 25 separate construction companies and 17 automobile battalions were hastily formed in order to provide all sectors with labor. In addition, 160 engineering and sapper battalions of the border military districts and 41 battalions from the interior districts were involved in the construction. Together with the military units, from the spring of 1941 there were 17 820 civilian workers at the construction site.

To imagine the entire volume of construction work, it is enough to note that about 58 thousand people went out every day to erect structures in the fortified areas of the Baltic Military District, about 35 thousand people in the Western Military District and 43 thousand people in Kiev. For the transportation of building materials and equipment, the Military Councils of the districts and armies sent a large number of vehicles and tractors from artillery units.

On June 22, 1941, all these unarmed people were subjected to a massive air attack, artillery fire and attacks by the German ground forces. They fled in panic to the east, adding additional confusion and confusion to the ranks of the active Soviet units and subunits.

[aglet]

"On June 22, 1941, all these unarmed people were subjected to a massive air attack, artillery fire and attacks by the German ground forces. They fled in panic to the east,"
Well, what am I talking about?

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

On June 22, 1941, all these unarmed people were subjected to a massive air attack, artillery fire and attacks by the German ground forces. They fled east in panic, "
Well, what am I talking about?

Quote: mat-vey

mat-vey (Matvey) 2 6 March 2021 04:49
-7

Quote: ROSS 42
Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained

In the first wave of prisoners there were many "construction battalions" .. they were not supposed to do anything else, and the contingent was picked up on the same principle that they were always in construction units ..

What about that?

[MrIgr]

And you a genius never thought that a rifle needed cartridges and a soldier had to eat something. In combat conditions, all this ends very quickly.
My grandfather Markov Dmitry Sergeevich fought as an artilleryman in the 467th corps artillery regiment, 467KAP you can see the combat path of this regiment.
Yes, he had a rifle, now I remembered how he told me, let's go, we didn't eat anything for 2 days, there was a rifle on his shoulder, and there was not a single bayonet.
Give you a twist and put it against the tanks.

[Witness 45]

Yes, many subdivisions and units of the construction battalion did not have rifles, at least at full strength, which gave rise to the later idea of ​​"one rifle for three".

[Doctor]

In the first wave of prisoners there were many "construction battalions" .. they were not supposed to do anything else, and the contingent was picked up on the same principle that they were always in construction units ..

There is a good book about the adventures of a construction battalion soldier in the initial period of the war and then in German captivity. Much becomes clear.

Paliy Pyotr Nikolaevich
Captive officer's notes

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/paliy_pn/index.html

[aglet]

"There is a good book about the adventures of a construction battalion"
Adventures? at the beginning of the war? you wrote exactly what you wanted to write

[Doctor]

There is a good book about the adventures of a construction battalion "
Adventures? at the beginning of the war? you wrote exactly what you wanted to write

Reads like an adventure novel.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: ROSS 42

Today it is easy to argue how the victorious people in the first days of the war massively surrendered.

In the book "The Living and the Dead" Simonov very clearly and truthfully described the first months of the war, and in this sense, part of Serpilin is a collective image of the cadre units of the Red Army, who fought bravely and bravely, and then left the cauldrons and encirclements with weapons in their hands.
And if not for this resistance and resilience, it would hardly have been possible to keep Moscow.

[Andrey Yuryevich]

11th Army, my grandfather is on the right, East Prussia,

[Malyuta]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

11th Army, my grandfather is on the right, East Prussia,

Great photo! My respect.

[Alien From]

Join

[Uncle lee]

And here is a photo: the soldier did not bend!

[Alien From]

Even without teeth they would be torn !!!

[Zug]

Why tear? You had to know how to fight.

[mole]

Quote: Zug

Why tear? You had to know how to fight.

THEY have proven their skill!

[Zug]

Yes, according to the veterans, the guys were extremely aggressive.

[mole]

Quote: Zug

Yes, according to the veterans, the guys were extremely aggressive.

Aggression during war, positive or negative quality ???
You want to resurrect the Wehrmacht by crook or crook, or rather his lousy ideas? You are not Christ! Come down to earth!

[Zug]

Who is trying to resurrect whom? What are his ideas? Did I say something about ideas or about resurrection? What are you writing heresy?

[NIKN]

Quote: Zug

Why tear? You had to know how to fight.

You can say whatever you like about the beginning of the war. What was on the border is episodes of heroism and some and mediocrity of others. There would not be so many fools, there would be no need to be heroes to others ... unfortunately, usually posthumously ... :(
Here everything in general is understandable, although very, very, very sad, there are not even words, I just want to growl. But the main problem is emergency and retreat throughout! (ALL! Karl) armies are not the consequences of failure at the border, there simply could not have been luck in the confrontation between the border troops and the regular army. The task of the border guards is to hold out until the APPROACH of the REGULAR units! But they did not even appear in the places provided for by the plan to repel the attack. And this, oddly enough, is also not the main reason. The picture would have been different if the mobilization plan had been put into effect in a timely manner ... This is neither more nor less, at least a month or two before the results of the start of more or less the results of its implementation, so to speak. These "month or two" Germans did not have an enemy in the form of a full-fledged mobilized army. Themselves, they mobilized efficiently and slowly. Now, if such an order had been given in a timely manner a month and a half before the war, then the war would have gone differently. And it doesn't matter what the Germans would think about it, because they themselves were hiding behind as if preparations for the landing in England, we could “cover up” (if at all it would be necessary) by strengthening our forces in the Far East or at least by mobilization exercises. .. And the result of this is the most severe losses and defeats, a catastrophic shortage of troops, even for more or less patching holes in these first months. And the very process of mobilization in wartime is inferior in the quality of mobilization according to the plan, this especially concerns the time for training mobilized people and you have to throw them into battle on the move, mostly poorly prepared.

Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko (Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko)
Today, 18: 55
NEW

+2
But no: my grandfather was led along the line of the Pope as part of a column in September 1941 to form a military unit somewhere in the north of Ukraine. Of course, no weapons. They walked in a huge column to the west to some sort of collection point. And suddenly, parallel to the column, German tanks and motorcycles appeared from both sides. And the columns, as they walked, continued to go west only already in captivity. Then - a camp in Poland and three years of hard labor in the Baltics. In January 1945, ours released them and without any checks immediately to the front line. Until May 1945, my grandfather had already received a medal "For Courage" and the Order of the Patriotic War (I don’t remember the degree, sorry). In the fall of 1945, he fought with Japan, and was demobilized at the end of 1947. They said so - he fought a little, so serve the Motherland even in peacetime, but he was not offended and honestly served somewhere in Transbaikalia.

And that's not all. It is necessary to consider all areas of preparation for war, and this is a very extensive complex of measures .. Therefore, individual episodes will not give the concept of defeats at the beginning of the war. Germany was completely ready for it, and alas ... and here it doesn't matter whether Stalin believed in war or not, but we were not ready for war at all.

[Zug]

They saw the enemy every day. But in principle, everything is written correctly. They did not have time to reorganize, according to the results of the Finnish company. By the way, they tried, there were changes and there were a lot of them. You can easily find them even after reading the interviews of veterans on the website I Remember.

[Witness 45]

Were they not ready at all, the war would have ended in 41, they were ready, a lot was done, but in fact the Germans were better prepared for a number of objective reasons, that's all.

[Malyuta]

Quote from Uncle Lee

And here's a photo: the soldier didn't bend

Thanks to their courage and perseverance, we won the Great Victory!

[Walking]

This is in the north, sort of in the Arctic.

[Zug]

The search engines found the remains of a soldier of the one who was in an overcoat, according to the photo, local, from the north came to this place.

[New Year day]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

11th Army, my grandfather is on the right, East Prussia,

and this is my uncle-

All that remains

[Smoke]

thank you uncle

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: Silvestr

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

11th Army, my grandfather is on the right, East Prussia,

and this is my uncle-

All that remains

What can I say Doc, mail for Honor at the meeting, drink 100, for our grandfathers.

[old gnome]

father ... Rzhev ...

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: old gnome

father ... Rzhev ...

I won't even ask ... 100g.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Stroporez

And if not for this resistance and resilience, it would hardly have been possible to keep Moscow.

My father fought from Brest, and was surrounded, but the soldiers did not flinch, went out with battles. When he read articles about how our people fled, he said, "It would be better if this writer asked me - Frolovich, but what was it really like, and we held every five lands with our teeth, watered them with blood, but held them."

[geniy]

When he read articles about how our people fled, he said, "It would be better if this writer asked me - Frolovich, but what was it really like, and we held every five lands with our teeth, watered them with blood, but held them."

What - right, everyone, without a single exception, clung to our land with their teeth and did not retreat at all? Why, then, did the Germans reach Moscow and Stalingrad itself? But in terms of the number of soldiers, guns, tanks and aircraft, the Germans did not have superiority ...
But in the region of the North, for some reason, our fighters, for some reason, did not move a step away from the border ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: geniy

What - right, everyone, without a single exception, kept their teeth on our land and did not retreat at all?

Sorry, your liberal friends will answer that.

[Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)]

It turns out that the liberals let the Wehrmacht go to Moscow? Not enough, it turns out, Stalin shot Trish?

[Zug]

Your Father is no doubt a Hero, but how then did the Germans cover such a distance in such a time?

[mole]

Quote: Zug

Your Father is no doubt a Hero, but how then did the Germans cover such a distance in such a time?

Wrongly worded! How then did they cover such a distance in Europe, and we got stuck ???
There is only one answer: His Father is not alone there, there were many Heroes!

[Zug]

And in Europe they walked more slowly. It's just that Russia is bigger

[mole]

Quote: Zug

And in Europe they walked more slowly. It's just that Russia is bigger

And on you a joke:
Germany. Teacher: - What is the largest city in the world?
Hans: - Stalingrad.
Teacher: Why?
Hans: "My grandfather told me that they walked along the same street for 200 days, and never reached the end."

[Zug]

A good anecdote, it has nothing to do with history.

[mole]

Quote: Zug

A good anecdote, it has nothing to do with history.

Your "logic" has nothing to do with history. Learn the basics, then flood (throw the substance on the fan "). But do not forget about the" aggressive ", somewhere in the posts took place." Creative fan "will be attached, you will not throw it off later.

[Zug]

Wow, where did you learn so blah blah blah? Fan, substance .. this is for you in the comedy club, rotten tomatoes from the audience in the face to earn

[mole]

Quote: Zug

And in Europe they walked more slowly. It's just that Russia is bigger

By the way, Solzhenitsyn gave out other speeds! Talk to him.

[Zug]

And why do I need Solzhenitsyn. The average daily advance in France reached plus or minus 60-70 km per day. We have up to 90 and more. This is a fact. This is history. And in Russia, of course, they got bogged down. This is also a fact. Only when ..

[mole]

Then multiply 90 by the number of days of "getting stuck" and turn your head on. And then impose an "alternative with tolerance"!

[Zug]

You probably once again need to clarify something. Average daily advancement of parts. Cut your head yourself and end up suffering pseudo-patriotism. They did not have to pass these 90 days.

[mole]

Quote: Zug

You probably once again need to clarify something. Average daily advancement of parts. Cut your head yourself and end up suffering pseudo-patriotism. They did not have to pass these 90 days.

Repeat

Quote: Zug

And why do I need Solzhenitsyn. The average daily advance in France reached plus or minus 60-70 km per day. We have up to 90 and more. This is a fact. This is history. And in Russia, of course, they got bogged down. This is also a fact. Only when ..

What does the average daily and 90 and above, and 90 days?
We fought with dignity, 1945 showed, it's time to admit!

[Zug]

Actually, France surrendered in my opinion after 40 days. Enlighten at your leisure. The Germans could actively attack only 7 days out of 40. And let me ask you what the phrase means: 1945 has shown, it's time to admit! What kind of pearl is that?

[Witness 45]

Yeah, only seven days, and the remaining 33 days, the French were looking for carpets to the famous trailer, in which they signed the surrender.

[Zug]

The advance of the Wehrmacht through France is about 50-70 km per day in the active phase - we have 90 or more - a record of 150 ka per day.

[Zug]

You probably re-read Babajanyan's memoirs, there the frontal armor of the T-34 tank is 60 mm. You calm down and look sensibly at the history. And then "with a bayonet and a grenade" yes "on someone else's territory" can be repeated as in 41 again.

[mole]

Quote: Zug

You probably re-read Babajanyan's memoirs, there the frontal armor of the T-34 tank is 60 mm. You calm down and look sensibly at the history. And then "with a bayonet and a grenade" yes "on someone else's territory" can be repeated as in 41 again.

I will answer with a pearl - it can end like 1945!

[Zug]

Key word - "Maybe" Our leadership at 39 also thought that there would be a walk in Finland.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Mole

I will answer with a pearl - it can end like 1945!

Like this?

[mole]

Show the pictures to those who cross the borders on the armor in the morning. It's about the ability or inability to fight and the military spirit.
By the way, an alarmist is worse than a coward!

[Zug]

Hooray patriot worse traitor

[mole]

Yes, yes, throw in substances, hang labels without reason, and watch how they are laundered - this is yours.
I'm talking about uryakolok.
Not an uryakalka, but history does not need to be covered under the guise of a "search for truth", there are enough truth-tellers.
The losses in 1941 were caused by a basically lack of normal logistics. And the absence of b / n on the front line affects the spirit of the fighter.
Why were the NKVD troops ready to repel the attack, but the Red Army men were not ???

[Zug]

Damn, the secret is revealed! But I thought! What's the reason ... what's the difference? I'll draw you 100 reasons for the Red Army's retreat to Moscow. And yet, the reasons also began to emerge even after the Finnish debriefing in the Kremlin under the leadership of Stalin. The analysis lasted a week! Everyone was present, from generals to military lieutenants. And it affected all branches of the military. C the emphasis on the Air Force is useless and useless. Before the deputies of the Supreme Council had to ask the air group to lead the bombing, Vodopyanov was one of them. Do you think that something has changed in a year? Hilarious, I assure you: NOTHING. Although, to be honest, we tried our best. And what happened during the Finnish one happened naturally and before that on Khanhin-gol, where the Japanese dropped our fighters like chickens. On Lake Hassan Well, at the end in 1941. Miracles do not happen and what happened in 1941 is natural

[mole]

Lie, but don't lie, at least about chickens.
I did not try to reveal the secret, it is simply impossible.

[Zug]

Yes, yes, my friend, they fell. It got to the point that they promptly looked for experienced pilots throughout the union and sent them to Khankhin Gol on the spot to teach and train pilots. Tell me, master historian, what will you do on a stinking donkey against KI-27 with a Japanese on board with a flying time at the end of school under 600 hours with its 50-70 miserable hours of flying? Because the Japanese left school with 600 hours behind him, and you are not more than 100. Plus or minus. You will fall like a ragged chicken. Without a single chance if one on one. You would at least know THIS. But the campaign acre of pseudo patriotism with quacking You don’t know anything. And this is not Hassan. They even scored a goal for Khankhin. And linear units went to Lake Hassan. Do you know what was going on in the air? gee gee gee

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

gy gy gy

Result?

[Zug]

And the result was an order from Shaposhnikov to release pilots not with the rank of lieutenant but with the rank of sergeant. For this reason

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

And the result was an order from Shaposhnikov to release pilots not with the rank of lieutenant but with the rank of sergeant. For this reason

Here's how! And I thought that order 0362 was invented back in XNUMX.

[Zug]

Yes you cho! Cho is it true or what? I just wrote about the debriefing at the end of the Finnish one above. And if my memory serves me the Finnish ended in 40 ... it seems ... I seem to be from Karelia myself ... because I seem to remember))))))

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

.I, as it were, from Karelia ... because I seem to remember))))))

Oh, he made fun of him, he is from Karelia. Go read Paasikivi's memoirs first, and then I'll argue with you.

[Zug]

What is the dispute about? And why did you laugh? Tell me, who is not knowledgeable, that I need to learn this in Paasekivi's memoirs in order to be enlightened and what exactly I need to enlighten?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

Tell me, who is not versed, that in Paasekivi's memoirs I need to know this in order to be enlightened, and what exactly do I need to enlighten?

Read, educate yourself, there is a lot written there.

[Zug]

My friend, I don’t read the memoirs of dogs, just as I don’t read any memoirs with an emphasis on history. It’s written so much that you’re amazed. And near Moscow, in memoirs, we defeated the Germans, and near Kursk ... What is not written there. my soul was materials with a layout of documents and not the tales of a Finn's dog or Babadzhanyan, whose frontal armor on the T-34 was already 60 mm.

[chenia]

Quote: Zug

. And near Moscow in the memoirs we defeated the Germans, and near Kursk .. What is not written there.

The two most significant battles (even Stalingrad in the background) when we broke the Germans (the course of the war was completely changed).
And this is not an assessment of memoirs, but from competent sources.

[Zug]

Near Moscow, we inflicted a defeat on the Germans, near Kursk, the Germans themselves canceled the offensive when they realized that they could not achieve the strategic goals that had been designated. near Kursk. But after Kursk they could no longer carry out full-scale operations of this scale, as you know. But they have not yet been "broken". They were broken at Bagration. Finally, by destroying the army group.

[chenia]

Quote: Zug

We defeated the Germans near Moscow

At the end of 1941, we outnumbered the Germans in manpower and equipment, and already had combat-ready divisions (a subtlety that few people pay attention to, but it is defining).
And the Moscow battle is the collapse of the Wehrmacht. Losses 1941 and mistakes in 1942 allowed the Germans to achieve a certain (not natural. more random) success before the fall.

Quote: Zug

, near Kursk, the Germans themselves canceled the offensive when they realized that they could not achieve the strategic goals that had been designated

Well yes! True, "purely by chance" they turned out to be 550 km to the west (with absolutely no losses).
All "certain views" talk about the low losses of the Germans and the huge losses of the Red Army (almost all of the armored vehicles were destroyed, etc.).
Question. - why nemchura
the first - did not keep what was achieved (although with such flanks, you can keep it)
second, they did not hold the starting positions (well, if they refuse to advance, but why retreat from their starting positions before the attack).
the third - they did not keep the intermediate ones (yeah, nemchura not only "canceled" the offensive, but also began to tick.
fourth, the Germans did not hold such a line as the Dnieper (unthinkable, the weather was back, they left Rzhev, which they held for a year. And here is such an amazing line. And !!!
fifth, they were allowed to take Zhitomir (the end of the offensive and ours later had to leave it).
And the Red Army carried out all this with armored vehicles completely destroyed near Kursk (as some historians say) on scooters and carts.
IN HOW.

Quote: Zug

Well, plus the offensive began in the south.

To cancel the strategic offensive, because of Italy (where later 15 divisions held back the allies for a year) is a good excuse. You are still talking about military exploits in Italy. SS LSh AG division tell.

No, after Kursk the German went wrong.

Quote: Zug

ri Bagration

By the way, this is not a battle (although journalists voice it as the Battle for Belarus).
I am a man in the past (wow, it was a long time ago), military, and for me the terms are battle, battle, operation. and battle have a certain meaning.
Newans - during the offensive on the northern face, the Germans realized in time that they needed to withdraw the troops. What saved them, and were able to keep the Bryansk F and Central F.
For one year.
And Manstein was all sad.

[Zug]

The offensive in the South is not about Italy, as it were. And no one says that the Germans inflicted monstrous losses on us. But the planned counter-offensive, as it was originally conceived, was thwarted. But this is not so dangerous. They left in an organized manner. principle, the dog is with them. The main arc was kept and the rest is history. Mannstein always, according to him, everything was sad. But he fought like that. And on Kursk they did not have reserves, they put everything in a "row", we had them ... Well, yes, they patted us. At Stalin (please note such decisions are taken separately by the generals) they asked him (I don’t remember from memory, 1 tank brigade or something). What Stalin said, you had three on copper "Are you crazy? What will I attack with? And I did not give!" So, go to war. And the command's request for such reinforcements says a lot. The losses were ... um, heavy. But not all the tanks were lost. It's a lie, of course. But they could no longer fully counter-attack. The troops were tired.

[chenia]

Quote: Zug

But the planned counteroffensive, as it was originally conceived, was thwarted.

Believe it or not, the Germans organized an offensive in the strategic direction with the aim of encircling part of the troops of the CF and VF and advancing to a depth of 250 km. Within a few months, they created a grouping (two groups of armies), massing forces and means. As a result, we advanced 36 km on the southern face. And then (with this powerful group, and as many want to assure, almost without losses) they flew 550 km to the west.

Do I, alone see such a discrepancy? Was it their job to thwart our counteroffensive?

I understand today is a holiday, but I haven't drunk so much yet to accept such bullshit.

Quote: Zug

And in Kursk they had no reserves, they put everything in a "row", but we had them ..

And where did you go? Since March, they have been collecting (total war, however).

Quote: Zug

But they could no longer fully counter-attack. The troops were tired.

For 1943, from Prokhorovka to Zhitomir (550 km) and across the Dnieper is not so bad.
Let me remind you that the enemy is the Wehrmacht. The British are in Africa (almost to the Kursk Bulge until May 1943) with 4 German divisions fought for two years. And they have it the greatest battle.

[Zug]

They had no reserves. Mannstein put everything in "one row." And as a result, we did not reach our original plans in the counteroffensive. And everything that the Germans collected and moved - there was nothing to replace. counteroffensive. Nobody says that the Germans thwarted it at all. You can see Rumyantsev with Zamulin, everything is scheduled by day and hour

[chenia]

Quote: Zug

there was nothing to replace

What was required to prove - the crunch of the Wehrmacht ridge (the German went wrong).

[Zug]

I do not argue. The German has lost his skin

[Witness 45]

Well, in fairness, I must also say that in addition to the four divisions of the Germans, Rommel's corps, the British and the Americans were opposed there by almost 100 thousand Italians, although they did not show much agility in battles.

[chenia]

Quote: Svidetel 45

Well, in fairness, I must also say

Yes, I know, the Germans went there at the request of the workers of the FIAT concern and the British (the latter have already swung to feed the Italians prisoners - "even if we kill in battle, less expenses" .. But as a joke about the decisive contribution of the allies, it works.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

But as a joke about the decisive contribution of the allies, it works.

You are right.
TA Africa sorely lacked in Blau just in the winter of 42nd.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

TA Africa sorely lacked in Blau just in the winter of 42nd.

This is you about Anders, who faded with weapons and equipment, just in time.
Well, Greece. Albania and Yugoslavia held back even more German divisions.
And we, holding back the Kwantung Army, made a decisive contribution to the struggle for Guadalcanal.
Well, this is basically in line with your logic.

[aglet]

"At the end of 1941 we were superior to the Germans in manpower and equipment."
remind me how many tanks there were in the red army near Moscow, compared to June 22, otherwise I forgot something

[chenia]

Quote: aglet

how many tanks were in the red army near Moscow, compared to June 22,

less, but more than that of the Wehrmacht.

[aglet]

"Newans - during the offensive on the northern face, the Germans realized in time that they had to withdraw the troops"
that is, there was no battle, the Germans just shrugged off, withdrawing the troops?

[chenia]

Quote: aglet

did the Germans just shrivel up, withdrawing the troops?

Could be so. Kluge realized it was time to dump, otherwise they would be shoveled to the fullest. And so it happened, but a year later under Bush.

[Witness 45]

The T-34-85 has a front projection of exactly 60 mm.

[Zug]

Isn't this the same dog that the Kola Peninsula demanded as part of the delegation in the negotiations in Berlin? It is strange that the dog was perplexed at the negotiations later, in 39, about Comrade Stalin's moderate appetites ... Oh, yes ... the armistice with the Tart Treaty was lost by the Finns, napchav another expansion in Karelia. Well, yes, the dog is with him. What did he write in his memoirs? This dog?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

Isn't this the same dog that the Kola Peninsula demanded as part of the delegation during the negotiations in Berlin? It is strange that the dog was perplexed at the negotiations later, in 39, about Comrade Stalin's moderate appetites ... Oh, yes ... a truce

Nda .... Looks like a clown by his gait ... Or maybe you should read the Unknown Soldier Vainyo first, huh?

[Zug]

Or maybe you can come to Karelia, to Petrozavodsk, for a start, I, a lover of Finnish novels, will make an excursion, so to speak, to places of Finnish glory? I see you have a true Finnish guy lives.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

you have a true Finnish guy lives.

They do not live true, they have a natural product.

[Zug]

Who is this? Your sidekick Paasikivi and amateur writer Vaine? You have re-read the mukulatures, like Irincheev, by the way.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Zug

Who is this?

Hot Estonian guy, that's your sidekick. Didn't know, or what?

[Zug]

I’m not interested in that, but I’m not you Mist in sich zu stopfen. Wie ein Scheisshund

[Zug]

Here is a recent example based on our own archival data. Under the action of our attack aircraft in the Baltic
in 1944, during attacks on the "Magic Order" that guarded the mine position of Seeigel-7, 103 IL-5 aircraft were shot down in 15 days (from March 52 to June 2) with minimal losses for the Germans

12 sorties of torpedo bombers, 327 sorties of Pe2, and 1065 sorties of IL2.13,5. 3 sorties daily! A total of 9 ships sunk, 52 injured (total) In total, 2 strike aircraft were shot down (except for 61 ILXNUMX)!
This is almost 100 percent of two regiments of the 9th assault division! For three! Sunken small ships

[Smoke]

not a fact, 600 hours is redundant, as it were

[aglet]

"Lie, but don't lie, at least about chickens"
well, maybe not chickens, but sparrows. And what did they ask Stalin (no matter how beetles, or who?) to send a special group of pilots, do you know? to send a group of ases, heroes of the Soviet Union, against ordinary combat pilots in Japan.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

Although, to be honest, we tried our best

As they say, zeal is not according to reason. It is believed that by the 41st year the quality of the Red Army had become even lower than the 39th year due to large-scale, poorly thought out, not provided with materiel and categorically not provided with personnel changes.

[Zug]

The quality of the years. The composition began to fall after 36-37 years. Another reorganization. Before that, by the way, the years. The park and the composition were very high. And yes, the shelves were crushed, create new ones. New hardware did not come, new models. problems grew. But shelves were needed, it was necessary to close the borders. I see you are minus ... Well, this is from a narrow mind ...

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

I watch you minus

In the (viola) history section, I rarely agree with the venerable congregation.

As for the essence of the issue, the Red Army Air Force was a comic institution (tragedy), but, alas, they were not the trouble. The USSR was not ready (until 45 inclusive) to use such a complex thing as aviation, but simpler things did not work either. Some of them managed to break just in 39-41.

[Zug]

We were not ready but used. Somehow they pulled it out. There was no other option

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

Somehow they pulled it out

How to say.
If there can be no doubts about the fleet - the pre-war madness of the Soviet government went exclusively to the detriment of defense capability - then there is a discussion about aviation. However, I personally believe that the idea of ​​creating mass aviation in the situation of the USSR - both with industry, and, above all, with the number of conscripts with a complete secondary education - was no less a terrible mistake.

[Zug]

Well, there should have been a lot of aviation, no options. And in the east, in the west. The borders are not small. But to create it in such a time, and even with such delays of new machines, with a cut in fuel for training. from the regiments of old equipment (suitable for training rafts) - There are no new ones, only promises. Well, that's a lump and rolled. There are no engines, a donkey acrom until the age of 41, they could not release anything. More or less, only Yak flew. LAGG finished 41-42 years The MiGG did not take off at all with its problems. What is the enemy to meet? On Chaikas and Ishaks against ME -109 f2-f4 With Kommandogaeret, engines with injectors? Plus, for a bunch of "no" training of pilots. I read Pokryshkin, well, they flew there a lot before the war. But then the advanced parts, so to speak, are the best. But mostly ....

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

there should have been many, no options

What for?

Quote: Zug

But to create it ..

That's it. If the Japanese came up with the idea of ​​kamikaze in 44, then the Red Army Air Force from the first days of the war acted in this logic. Despite the fact that the aviation took well-educated guys at that time, which were not in abundance.

[Zug]

What is the extent of the borders? In the Far East, there are only Japanese and you can't drive airplanes there. I had to build my own infrastructure with schools in the same place and factories.

[Cherry Nine]

Again. Why create such an aircraft? Inquire about the release of Hurricane or P-36 relative to the I-16. Say, the bourgeoisie did not have enough planes?

[Zug]

The bourgeoisie will have a smaller territory. And at the same time there were not so many planes in adequate condition. Heap, but if you take outdated cars, which were going to be replaced soon, there are not so many. Just not replaced.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

The bourgeoisie will have a smaller territory.

Seriously?
The strength of the Red Army Air Force for the summer of 41? The number of backlashes in the east for the summer of 41?

Quote: Zug

They just didn’t replace it.

Production of the Me-109 up to and including 41 years old? Production of new types of fighters (MiG, LaGG, Yak) for 41 years inclusive?

[Zug]

GaGG limped on both legs, Miggy generally axes. Yak and even then in an obscene amount. LaGGs there passed one and a half stream by June 22. They flew mainly on donkeys and on Chaikas. Airplanes to cover the Tallinn convoy, look at what planes.

[Cherry Nine]

Have you looked at the production volumes, or will you not be for reasons of principle? And at the expense of quality - who forced the Soviet government to organize a competition for folksagger among the circles of young technicians? And also keep 5 models in production at the same time? And all with a wooden glider?

[Zug]

Serov, look. Specialist on the history of the creation of Lagg. Etc. It says on the machines when and how many were put into operation. From which plants and which series. And no one was going to drive all 5 models initially into the series. As the situation developed. everything changed. By 42, he flew from the new Yak, Lagg. And the remnants of MiGGs. Lagg moved to La. Well and Yak. That's actually all the models. And if you take into account the fact that looking through materials on, say, the Blue Line in 1943. then all the same Luggs of various series flashed, Yaki from 1 to 7 models. Ishaks and Cobras. So the myth of 5 models is just a myth. In Germany, there were also several models at the same time, the competition was held. Initially, it was simply not clear from the engines who would pass the tests etc. That is what they insured themselves.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Zug

b. By 42, he flew from new

I was interested in numbers pre-war production. You basically don’t want to indicate them?

Quote: Zug

no one was going to drive all 5 models initially into the series

Generally 6, but I-180 fell off. And so MiG, LaGG, Yak, I-16 and I-153 are in production at the same time (January 41). 5 gliders, 3 engines. Then the I-153 was covered, but the Yak-7 was added.

[Zug]

I-16.and -15. And all the others had to go to replace. And neither MiGG nor Lagg The full test cycle until June 41 did not even pass. On Lugg for May he did not even know until the end what to put. We were waiting for the Taubin cannon. For June , once again the LaGG regiment one and a half entered the troops. And those already "flying" were finishing (the cooling system, all hydraulic pipes, landing gear struts, etc.) They were finishing all 41 and 42 years. The MiGG was excluded, which was expected. Yak and Lagg remained .Yak -7 is already a modification. So there were no 5-10 different fighters there. And there were a lot of "issued" because of the above. And it was not accepted into service. But in general, tests as such did not pass. And it is better to choose one of five than one of one. And you can see the exact figures for 36 years on any resource. It's not a secret.

[gsev]

Quote: Cherry Nine

And also keep 5 models in production at the same time? And all with a wooden glider?

If Stalin had ordered the production of aircraft on the model of the Me-109, then due to the lack of machine tools in the USSR, there would be 15 times less of them than in Germany. And because of the lower quality of boring machines and the availability of gasoline with a lower octane number, a Soviet aircraft would have either a shorter range or a lower speed. In addition, it is necessary to take into account the German and Russian culture of high-precision production. The Germans had about 2000 light fighters made according to the idea of ​​an ultralight fighter (Yakovlev successfully implemented the idea of ​​such a light fighter on the Yak-1 and Yak-3). However, they were practically not used in battles, believing that they would simply be targets for training Soviet pilots. According to Eisenhower's memoirs, the Americans seized almost half a million Italian planes during Italy's surrender.

[gsev]

Quote: Cherry Nine

The USSR was not ready (up to 45 years inclusive) to use such a complex thing as aviation

During the war, the aircraft industry of the USSR had about 15 times fewer metal-cutting machines; the Soviet petrochemical industry produced aviation gasoline with a lower octane number than Hungarian, German and Romanian. There were more designers in the Messerschmit Design Bureau than in the entire aviation industry of the USSR. With such a ratio, it was theoretically impossible for the Red Army to withstand the German air force of Germany. However, due to the mass production of fighters with the worst qualities and the mass training of pilots, the USSR was able to win the war with Germany. Understand that in the USSR they were able to make the first metal-cutting machine about 10 years before the war with Germany. Taking this into account, the Stalinist strategy in the development of aviation must be recognized as brilliant.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: gsev

in the USSR were able to make the first metal-cutting machine about 10 years before the war with Germany.

And what kind of machine is this, can you say?

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

It is believed that by the 41st year the quality of the Red Army had become even lower than the 39th year due to large-scale, poorly thought out, not provided with materiel and categorically not provided with personnel changes.

Yes, this is the reason for such crushing losses. But the calculation was that in 1941 Germany was not ready for war with the USSR (And this is absolutely true).
It's like carrying out a major overhaul of a house, and urgently (the daughter-in-law suddenly pregnant) in a week, you need to hold a wedding (and in your hut).
At the end of the Spring of 1941, our people realized what was being planned, but the decisions made and the organizational plan measures that had begun could no longer be canceled.

[Cherry Nine]

Not sure if anyone was counting on anything. The Soviet power in those years was already very far removed from reality. Organizational design, God forgive me, the 41st Red Army is sheer bullshit, projection and eyewash. In general, the same orderWhich under Stalin was.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Organizational design, God forgive me, the 41st Red Army is sheer bullshit, projection and eyewash.

Not. Our eternal approach is to cry and ask for more (they will still give less, but more than necessary). But then we will figure out how and where to use. Well, we didn't have time to figure it out.
And our organizational structures are more correct than those of the Germans. But the German organization of BTV and artillery, and there is bullshit.
They didn’t flash the stubborn defense of the beginning of the war, and then either the Kursk Bulge or Budapest (30-40 km and that’s all).
By the way. and what exactly is wrong with building organizational structures?
Well, if you say that, then you know how to do it.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

Our eternal approach

Better 30 tank corps with 1000 vehicles on paper than 30 brigades with 100 vehicles in reality.

Quote: chenia

here is the German organization of BTV and artillery, and there is bullshit.

Seriously? Until the age of 44, there were no special complaints.

Quote: chenia

what exactly is wrong with building organizational structures?

I, as you probably guessed, have a special love for mechanized corps. Although the main issues during the WWII were the issues of art and its interaction with the infantry.

Quote: chenia

then you know how to do it.

Some strange question. Everyone knows how to do it. Something like what they did in the 45th year. Since the variant of the Wehrmacht 41, which the Americans caught up and surpassed, is impassable for the USSR.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Better than 30 tank corps

Well, the guys went into a rage (Stalin said that we would not regret the defense). Timoshenko, Meretskov (although he timidly and objected - they say there is no need to rush.), Zhukov understood - we need to take, and more (well, that's how many new general positions). Come on, at least it would be consistent. So no (otherwise the political leadership may change its mind), and the cadres were washed out. By the way, the Germans doubled the TD by dividing the TBR. And already existing infantry, artillery and combat and logistics support units were attached to the TP. Quickly and without straining - and all the same faces. True, the German TD is no longer a tank division in essence (and in form). And not shaping the development of success. And after France they understood why complicate it and it will go that way. And it passed. At the beginning. And then, it got out sideways. And if you consider that TDs were often used as breakthrough formations, then in operational and operational tactical terms, the Germans suck. And their BG (in fact, reinforced infantry (rifle) regiments), which should pull the task of the day of the division? And the organization of artillery, where is it "successfully" spread over the formations?
And they in "single-breasted" uniforms decided to win the war.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Seriously? Until the age of 44, there were no special complaints.

You, yes.
But my education does not allow me to share your optimism. (see above.)

Quote: Cherry Nine

I have a special love for mechanized corps. Although the main issues during the WWII were the issues of art and its interaction with the infantry.

In our MK, it was necessary (I repeat for the thirtieth time) to change the OShS of the tank regiment (they saw this immediately, they would come to this later, this would have come before the war, had there been a full-scale MK exercise (planned for the fall of 1941).
Three battalion TP. with three tanks in platoons, it immediately reduces the number of main tanks in the MK to 470-475 (plus up to 150 tanks in combat support units). Those. on MK - 600 tanks. Well, further about handling and those. and mate. I will not say anything about the guarantee.

For the Germans, the TD is "overloaded" with infantry, artillery and anti-tank weapons. It is correct for the formation of a breakthrough, but not for the raid.
Raids should not "tear" the echeloned defense (in the depths the density drops. Some nodes can be bypassed). And then laziness will spread, how they act, you have to find.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

And if you consider that TDs were often used as breakthrough formations, then in operational and operational tactical terms, the Germans suck. And their BG (in fact, reinforced infantry (rifle) regiments), which should pull the task of the day of the division? And the organization of artillery, where is it "successfully" spread over the formations?

Yeah. All of this was done intelligently, worked beautifully and copied by those who could afford it.

Especially by the way, they inserted a hairpin about the Germans, who could not concentrate on artillery. Ask about the projectile consumption of 15cm and above.

Quote: chenia

But my education does not allow

Your education, as far as I understand, allows you to present the Germans in 41 for Kursk and Budapest.

Quote: chenia

Those. on MK - 600 tanks

But in reality, 200 plus or minus.

Quote: chenia

It is correct for the formation of a breakthrough, but not for the raid.

I have no idea what you got there for the raids of tank divisions. In reality, the German shopping malls were supposed to form a boiler. With which, up to a certain point, they were quite coping.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Yeah. All of this was done intelligently, worked beautifully and copied by those who could afford it.

We copied the TG (we have the Shock Army). and MK (where they correctly reduced by 1 infantry division) is 1940 after France. And it didn't fucking work. Or rather, they did not have time to drive away. In 1941, having destroyed MK. the largest connection we had was the TD. But in 1942 it turned out to be not enough. TK and TA appeared. (but here, if you do not look at the rank. In fact, TD and MK-40 with the amendments that I indicated earlier. That is, experience suggested the right way, which I spoke about.
And the Germans weakened the formation of the development of success, and were often used in a perverse manner.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Ask about the projectile consumption of 15cm and above.

Ha. You couldn't think of any dumber. (you read my nickname). Fuck me 2 15 cm howitzers in the regiment, and 12 more in the division.
The Germans managed to "smear" the artillery in units and subunits. Well, how can each horse-radish have its own "orchestra" (and I must say, their tactical training from platoon to regiment was always higher than ours).
And with us it is simpler, the senior boss must ensure that the task is completed by subordinates.
And com. a regiment with a meager amount of standard artillery (6-120 mm mortars, 6- 76 mm guns, and 4-4 45 mm guns) received two artillery regiments from 1 to 5 to complete the task (which is 2-, 76-122 km depth) mm, if there are fortifications (shooting for destruction) to a battery (or even a division of 152 mm howitzers - if mounted) or a battery of 152 mm self-propelled guns. And all divisional, corps, RGK artillery worked for this regiment (the regiment commander only reported about the transfer of fire.). Counter battery fight. suppression of advancing enemy reserves. it's not even his business.
And all this was taken, after completing the task, and attached to other parts of the compound. We even have 120mm mortars. performed tasks in the interests of the regiment of another compound (well, if the route of the advancement of the unit into which this battery is included passes through the area of ​​its OP.

And in defense, it was easier for us to attach an anti-tank regiment to a unit than to have a full-time anti-tank unit. The level of training is incomparable.

Quote: Cherry Nine

allows you to show the Germans in '41

I explained. that all this worked well for the Germans, with an unstable defense.
We, on the other hand, pierced the defenses of one of the most experienced and tenacious army in the world.
And it worked.

Quote: Cherry Nine

I have no idea what you got there for the raids of tank divisions.

raid- rapid advance and combat operations behind enemy lines of highly mobile (airborne, tank, mechanized) subunits, units (connections) or partisan detachments in order to destroy the enemy's manpower and equipment, its important facilities, disorganize the work of the rear, command posts, disrupt communications, etc.

Boilers, especially in prepared defense centers, sharply reduce the pace of the offensive; parallel pursuit of the retreating enemy is better. Therefore, it is necessary to capture intermediate lines, break communications and further in the text. And cut off (dismember) certain forces in unprepared areas. for the purpose of destruction. And the main thing is to constantly force the enemy to retreat, and to advance rapidly on his shoulders.

Formations with fewer "mouths" and more weapons and wheels are just right for this.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

And it didn't fucking work.

Not copied, but depicted something on the topic. No, it did not work in the USSR.

Quote: chenia

the largest connection we had was the TD.

For 11 thousand people and 400 cars.

Quote: chenia

TCs appeared

If you stop cheating, then the 42nd mk is a pre-war brigade for 100 vehicles, which was given to a whole lieutenant general so that the division commanders would stop taking it away.

Quote: chenia

and TA

If you look at the 3TA 42nd year, we will be surprised to see an approximately American 3td without motorized infantry.

Quote: chenia

experience suggested how it should be, as I spoke about.

Experience suggested the same thing as everyone else. 43 Mechanized Corps, 200+ BTTs, 16 + thous. l / s. With German and American money - an almost full-fledged tank division (but without normal art). The tank corps did not become a full-fledged division, it remained a large brigade to the end.

Quote: chenia

And the Germans weakened the formation of the development of success, and were often used in a perverse manner.

They teach the Germans to fight, I love them.

No, there were, of course, oddities among the Germans. Like regiments for 200 panthers. Just started with Kursk.

Quote: chenia

Fuck me 2 15 cm howitzers in the regiment, and 12 more in the division.

Not howitzers, but mortars. You know, they came in handy, and more than once. As for the division - but their own. The Germans and Americans thought so. The British had another system, with a strong corps link (although the British had a rather bad division link, too, who was not joking with the art).

And the USSR had just the German system. Only the USSR, as it turned out, could not afford it.

Quote: chenia

And all divisional, corps, RGK artillery worked for this regiment

You fell from the moon, excuse me? Or did you start a war in 45? Will give "regiment" 152mm self-propelled RGK self-propelled guns, yeah.
If you stop blissful, then there was full support for the arts in an army or front-line operation. Theoretically, there was quite serious artillery at the corps level - 2 regiments with 36 guns each up to 6 "- but in practice, hmm.

Quote: chenia

We, on the other hand, pierced the defenses of one of the most experienced and tenacious army in the world.

Are these Germans from the summer of 43 onwards? Hmm, no, the Germans began to have difficulties by this time.

Quote: chenia

Boilers, especially in prepared defense centers, sharply reduce the pace of the offensive; parallel pursuit of the retreating enemy is better.

Well, if you feel better, you can fight as you see fit. And the Germans somehow fought with boilers, and I can't say that it turned out badly.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

If you stop cheating, then the 42nd mk is a pre-war brigade for 100 cars, which was given to a whole lieutenant general so that the division commanders would stop taking it away.

You oppose or confirm me. The fact that the formations did not correspond to the rank I am aware of. I just said that through experience and blood we came to the correct structure (and drive away MK earlier. Could have a similar structure to war).

Quote: Cherry Nine

then the mk of 42 is a pre-war brigade for 100 vehicles, which was given to a whole lieutenant general so that the division commanders would stop taking it apart.

If the TC is included in the TA (and they also began to be created in 1942). then it has other functions - the formation of the development of success. If in the army operational subordination (and even at the front), then it was pulled apart by the breakthrough formations, and could be used completely as a whole (according to the situation).

Quote: Cherry Nine

Experience suggested the same as everyone else

You don’t understand. Tymoshenko. Meretskov and Zhukov are guilty of replicating monsters with an untested structure. And that was the time. And I said we got to the war, we would get there after the exercises. In addition, many commanders pointed to this. Don't look at the ranks of the formations. this is the second (well, it flatters the ambition).

Quote: Cherry Nine

They teach the Germans to fight, I love them.

Believe it or not, the Germans basically held on to the excellent tactical training of units and their commanders. And almost to the end of the war, they were superior. And at the operational-tactical level. in operational terms, they are stagnant, as shown by the events of the end of 1942 and beyond (especially the Kursk Bulge).
But they carried out the withdrawal excellently.
In general, learn how to separate periods of war.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Will give "regiment" 152mm self-propelled RGK self-propelled guns, yeah.

If the regiment breaks out (in the main direction), it will get everything and more from above. He is, as it were, part of the UA breakthrough division. And if in a secondary direction. his offensive (also as part of a division and an army) is intended first to prevent the initial determination of the direction of the main attack, and then to prevent the enemy from maneuvering with reserves. There won't be that much artillery.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Hmm, no, the Germans began to have difficulties by this time.

Shaw, in Italy? Where the allies, fighting with 15 divisions, could not take Rome for a year? The training of the troops - I have already said. Their tactical level was the highest almost until the end of the war. Or did total war (mobilization of all forces and means) hinder them?
Or something at the conservatory?

Quote: Cherry Nine

fought with boilers, and I cannot say that it turned out badly.

Eh, of the three options in 1941 near Kiev, we chose the worst. The first is to withdraw the troops when Budyonny demanded, the second to keep the defenses - as Kirponos wanted, and the third to withdraw the troops being already surrounded.
But the second option? And the Germans would have swallowed 500 thousand grouping (buried in the ground up to their ears, this is not to smash the retreating columns in the open area). Before the Dnieper UR, 6 PA has already broken off its teeth. the Dnieper itself is a cool rocada, a maneuver with reserves (the Dnieper flotilla). There are concrete factories in the city, you can build Fortifications). There is still a lot of weapons and food in Kiev (and in the encirclement zone).
Well, how is the attack on Moscow? Yes, he would have taken such forces and resources upon himself. and the Germans by this time (a month later) in real life had enough to attack only in one strategic direction.
Yes, Kiev would have turned into ruins. unequivocally, but for two or three months he fettered significant forces. And so a week and a half.

When we were making boilers (fortress cities) in 1944-1945, we spat (remember Konev) and even gave us a corridor, so that the Germans would just start to retreat (well, of course, to give them hope and get them out of the fortifications.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

I just said that through experience and blood we came to the correct structure

Approximately to the brigade of the 30s - 200 vehicles - and they came, only it was now called "corps". The rest of the countries had a division of this size, and it was more complexly arranged than the Soviet corps. But the essence is the same, the connection of significantly more than 200 tanks is uncontrollable and inactive because binds the rears to itself.

Quote: chenia

Tymoshenko. Meretskov, Zhukov are guilty of

That the army, which had more tanks than in all of Europe put together, had no idea at all how to organize them. That is, it is worse - it has moved from a relatively working structure to a completely insane one.

Quote: chenia

And at the operational-tactical level. in operational terms, they are stagnant, as shown by the events of the end of 1942 and beyond.

What you can’t hear. It remains to find ground forces, which were better at the operational-tactical level. Really the Red Army? Have you guessed?

Quote: chenia

In general, learn how to separate periods of war.

I was somehow orienting myself.

Quote: chenia

If the regiment breaks out (in the main direction), it will get everything and more from above.

That is, he will receive full-fledged artillery support in front-line operations, at least at the army level. What are we talking about.

Quote: chenia

Shaw, in Italy?

Everywhere. The fact that with the blitzkrieg army already in the 42nd it was not, thank God, is well known. And if the notorious 6A was still impressive, then the activities of Manstein's subordinates at the Kursk Bulge are already causing some awkwardness. How the German was replaced.
Although ... The Germans were still much better at war. But more and more failures happened, and major, but major successes ceased to happen. Dried up, so to speak.

Quote: chenia

we chose the worst

Initially, it was about what tasks were solved by motorized Hiir connections.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

connection of significantly more than 200 tanks

It's okay for a connection. But a unit (regiment) should not be more than 100 tanks, no more than 3 battalions (in the main branch of the army), and a 3 tank platoon (if the TP is included in the TC).

Quote: Cherry Nine

That is, it is worse - it has moved from a relatively working structure to a completely insane one.

Well, after France, they copied from the Germans (as far as intelligence reported) a seemingly working structure (the French appreciated it).
Another thing is to roll it out to the landfill and see how it works, and do not replicate it in dozens.

Quote: Cherry Nine

It remains to find ground forces, which were better at the operational-tactical level. Really the Red Army? Have you guessed?

You taught dialectics. The Red Army began the war with a disrupted BP and organizational chaos (lack of experience is the third.) And the victory of the Wehrmacht is one thing.
And the Red Army at the end of 1942 (there are still a lot of shortcomings) and the attempts of the Wehrmacht are different.
And here is a striking difference. The Germans constantly repeated that 1941 was working successfully for them, they even improved it a bit (Kurskaya 200 barrels / km (and 40 was enough for them earlier), new equipment).
And it didn't.
I can talk for a long time
- that the formation of the development of success should not (with rare exceptions) carry out a breakthrough of the echeloned defense (and they have it all the time.
- that these formations should have a finer structure and more weapons and wheels than mouths.
- that the blurring of artillery is not good. (in our country, over time, of course) there were overwhelmingly many in the right place, at the right time).
-that the Germans could not reach such a thing as an artillery offensive (because they have a basis of the tactical level.)
- that the German BG (reinforced regiment) should not drag the task of the day of the division (we have 1,5 km. well, 3 km if the artillery took out the first fucking position completely, and on a well-deserved rest.

And there are a lot of other differences, but you don't see such subtleties.
And you are trying hard to prove something to me.
Believe me, I already forgot (66 years old). what you DO NOT know.

Quote: Cherry Nine

but big successes have ceased to happen. Dried up, so to speak

This does not happen without a reason.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

This is you about Anders, who faded with weapons and equipment, just in time.

Anders? When Comrade Stalin authorized the activities in the USSR of the armed forces subordinate to the London government, he was in a twilight state of mind. When I came to, I tried to lose them somewhere without unnecessary noise.

Quote: chenia

Greece. Albania and Yugoslavia held back even more German divisions.

England, in a word. Yes, it’s good that they reminded me, they don’t know much about it. Albania, by the way, there are Italians.

Quote: chenia

And we, holding back the Kwantung Army, made a decisive contribution to the struggle for Guadalcanal

Some ridiculous sketch. The Red Army in 42, of course, did not hold back anyone, and Guadalcanal was in no way limited by the shortage of IJA l / s as a whole.

Quote: chenia

This does not happen without a reason

The difference in class allowed you to lose several times less, but did not allow you to win back a double or triple superiority in the enemy's forces? No, won't the answer go?

Quote: chenia

part (regiment) should not

A regiment, and unlike a division, should not conduct independent actions. You can fight without regiments at all, some do it, and it turns out pretty well.

Quote: chenia

seemingly working structure

Connection for 1000 machines? The Germans?

By the way, did I already say that the tank power N1 of the 30s was the USSR? What other intelligence? Where is the head?

Quote: chenia

Believe me, I already forgot (66 years old). what you DO NOT know.

The office commanders teach Halder to fight over a glass of tea. Yes, that's what I meant.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

lose without unnecessary noise.

But the weight of LL (in six months) was stolen.

Quote: Cherry Nine

England, in one word

Well, following this logic, they fought in the Moscow battle.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Some kind of ridiculous sketch

I am also about this.

Quote: Cherry Nine

No, the answer will not go?

Reich 91 million people (Germany + Austria -80). and allies. At the same time, we were suffering huge losses and had the opportunity to recuperate (well, like a snake Gorynych, one was cut off, two grew up).
And how the freshly baked divisions ended, and the Germans lost their luck.

Quote: Cherry Nine

A regiment, and unlike a division, should not conduct independent actions

Maybe it happens that way. Although I wrote about something else. Shake it out, but I will not add to the details.
You just do not understand.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Connection for 1000 machines? The Germans?

I already wrote. MORE, we'll figure it out later. and polish. Did not make it.

Quote: Cherry Nine

Cabinet commanders teach Halder to fight over a glass of tea

At that time. he was the armchair "commander". I, too, in my younger years. I ran through the fields (well, except that WWI did not have time. And now, in general, "the honored chief of the sofa." But someone immediately got into the sofa commanders.
"platoon commander is the soul of battle" super maxim of Halder. Correct platoon. company commander - pull for everyone.
But the next one - "(on the eastern front) statutes (fighting) must be carried out in full " the Germans up to 43 were not very fulfilling.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

weight LL (for six months) stolen

Firstly, not all, and secondly, these are the Polish Armed Forces and Polish junk, on someone else's loaf, as they say ...

Quote: chenia

they fought in the Moscow battle.

Do you doubt that the situation in the Mediterranean weakened the Wehrmacht in the East?

Quote: chenia

the ability to recuperate

A lot of bad things can be said about the Soviet regime, but she never promised to end the war by the 24th anniversary of VOSR. Unlike the Germans. That is why it is paradoxical! - having withstood the blitzkrieg, she was prepared for a long war much better than the Reich.

Quote: chenia

You just don't get it

Probably.

Quote: chenia

we'll figure it out later. and grind

I mean, will we be left without tank troops for an indefinite period of time? Not all enemies of the people were caught by Comrade Beria, I see.

Quote: chenia

the Germans up to 43 were not very fulfilling.

Yes, the Germans had shoals, it's hard to argue here.

[chenia]

Quote: Cherry Nine

the situation in the Mediterranean weakened the Wehrmacht in the East?

Undeniably weakened. But in quantitative terms, the French parasites ... the girls held back more German divisions, and even inflicted defeat on manpower, bacteriological weapons (syphilis, gonorrhea, etc.). It was not for nothing that Stalin put the French in the category of winners.

Quote: Cherry Nine

I mean, will we be left without tank troops for an indefinite period of time?

Well, in the fall of 1941, they had to comprehensively drive out the MK in the exercises (I already indicated that I expected that there would be no war in 1941). Well, by the spring, there would be other MKs with a correction (close to the structure I was talking about - three battalion tank regiments and three tank platoons). Worse is the increase in MK to 30. And this has completely gouged our TBR rifle corps. And the TBR in the offensive tears up the echeloned defense (breakthrough). and in defense, they take part in counterattacks, and as part of a strike group, they inflict counterattacks. Well, if necessary, cover up the retreat.
Let's just say in 1942, the first-stage MKs would have been formed and put together (though lousy, but the organization of the march is support. Cover with subsequent deployment is most likely mastered.
So the planned counter strike against the advancing enemy would have shaken the Germans thoroughly. Most would most likely have died, but the Germans would have advanced at a completely different pace. And no further than the Dnieper.
But this is already an alternative history.

Quote: Cherry Nine

the Germans had shoals,

The Germans were numb. The techniques and methods that brought them success against untrained and hastily put together formations (and cho, it worked well), they continued to apply already against experienced and shot down in combat teams, our troops. Start to get stuck. And then, they only had enough imagination for a wunderwaffe ..

[aglet]

"then in operational and operational tactical terms, the Germans suck"
Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, Vyazma, Yukhnov especially showed this. well, it sucks

[chenia]

Quote: aglet

"then in operational and operational tactical terms, the Germans suck"
Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, Vyazma, Yukhnov especially showed this. well, it sucks

It is not a great science to beat the unfamiliar and poorly trained. What about after 42? With impudence it was no longer possible. And the Battle of Kursk is a total war, mobilization of the economy, several months of preparation. massing forces and means, fire density 200 barrels / km (the first and last time they had this), new technology.
AND!
Four months later we flew 550 km to the west.
Miracles or ...?
Think and understand.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: chenia

And the Battle of Kursk - total war, mobilization of the economy

The mobilization of the Reich economy has just begun. Actually, the delay in total war was his main mistake.

Quote: chenia

AND!.

And the loss is 1: 4 overall.

[chenia]

Moreover, our unsuccessfully advancing (passed half a thousand km,) and they successfully retreated.
This is their insidious plan - to reach Berlin and surrender unkilled.

gradation of lies
- half truth
-not true
-....
-....
- statistics
- German statistics (during the war)

[aglet]

“Four months later we flew 550 km to the west.
Miracles or ...? "
I thought it was about 1941? or am I wrong and talking about at all?

[Witness 45]

However, the losses of the Germans in aviation in the first months of the war were greater than in the battle for England.

[gsev]

Quote: Zug

before that on Khankhin-gol, where the Japanese dropped our fighters like chickens

As a result of the battles on Khalkhin Gol, some Japanese aviation commanders ripped their bellies open. According to the recollections of the officer of the Japanese General Staff Hitori, Japan was intimidated by the technical equipment of the Red Army in the battles on Khasan and Khalkhin Gol. There was nothing similar to how the Japanese smashed their enemy's aircraft over Hawaii, Malaya, the Philippines and Indonesia in the first six months of the war in battles with the Red Army Air Force.

[Witness 45]

Wow, storyteller, 90 km per day, according to the idea they should have been near Moscow in 10 days, and even dragged there by the end of October.

[aglet]

"Wrongly formulated! How then did they cover such a distance in Europe, and we got stuck ???"
stuck? brest-moscow in a straight line 1000 km. the Germans covered this distance in 4 months. the red army went back for almost 3 years

[tihonmarine]

Quote: aglet

brest-moscow in a straight line 1000 km. the Germans covered this distance in 4 months. the red army went back for almost 3 years

Sorry, but then write how many days the Soviet Army reached from the German border to Berlin. Something is wrong with your arithmetic.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: tihonmarine

in how many days the Soviet Army reached from the border of Germany to Berlin.

From what border, Soviet 41? From the 20th of July 44th (Brest boiler) to April 26th 45th, 9 months. Anything else to suggest?

Quote: tihonmarine

from January 20, 1945 to May 9, 1945, they passed all of Germany and hoisted the Victory Banner over the Reichstag.

If we subtract the pathos, then from Kustrin to Berlin 80 km in a straight line.

Quote: tihonmarine

May 9, 1945, passed all of Germany and hoisted the Victory Banner over the Reichstag.

Hello, we've arrived. April 30 the first banner, May 1 the second (official).

[aglet]

"Then write how many days it took the Soviet Army to reach from the German border to Berlin. Something is wrong with your arithmetic."
why not ok? it was about the fact that the Wehrmacht got stuck in Russia in 1941. and how much it took to get to Berlin, you yourself can count, if you can. and, by the way, the Soviet army reached Berlin in February 1946, if cho

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

But how then did the Germans cover such a distance in such a time?

Just like the Soviet troops from January 20, 1945 to May 9, 1945, they marched all over Germany and hoisted the Victory Banner over the Reichstag.

[Witness 45]

How, how, very simply how - strength breaks strength, they were in many respects higher than us, stronger, hence the defeats, losses, cauldrons and prisoners, that's the answer to the question.

[geniy]

In the book "The Living and the Dead" Simonov very clearly and truthfully described the first months of the war, and in this sense, part of Serpilin is a collective image of the cadre units of the Red Army, who fought bravely and bravely, and then left the cauldrons and encirclements with weapons in their hands.

Yes, about heroism is all a lot to write. As they say, victory has many fathers, but defeat does not. Here is who would write a true book of personal memories of how and from what massively millions surrendered.

[Doctor]

Here is who would write a true book of personal memoirs of how and from what massively millions surrendered.

Something like this.

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/paliy_pn/index.html

[mole]

Quote: geniy

Yes, about heroism is all a lot to write. As they say, victory has many fathers, but defeat does not. Here is who would write a true book of personal memories of how and from what massively millions surrendered.

The Nuremberg Tribunal described everything clearly. You are not happy, go and appeal !!!
You can, for example, in a New York court. International law does not apply to them.

[vladcub]

Agree: "The Living and the Dead" is a good book. It can be considered as a monument to all those who are surrounded, but did not give up.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Not only they - but the divisions of the people's militia (DNO), and the Far East with Siberians, and patriots like Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and thousands of others ??? All of Russia then rose to the defense of the capital. The alarmists fled in October and this fact does not disgrace the people. I think that in the event of a real assault on Moscow, in addition to the army, the city would have come to defend thousands of real patriots. The war after the defeat of the cadre of the Red Army in the summer of 1941 indeed became nationwide and Patriotic! Already the people realized the magnitude of the threat to the Motherland and stood up to defend the country.

[aglet]

"I think that in the event of a real assault on Moscow, in addition to the army, the city would have come to defend thousands of real patriots."
and what, there was no real assault? and there were no divisions of the people's militia? or are you talking about now? then, I would not be so optimistic if I were you

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

There was a real assault, but the Germans were not allowed beyond the distant suburbs. They were not in the center. Sorry, but I don’t understand the ending of the phrase about optimism or non-optimism ... It is devoid of any sense.
And my ancestors were precisely in the division of the people's militia: my uncle, Petr Nikolaevich Kuznetsov, born in 1900, a Muscovite, a former Gorky resident (Nizhny Novgorod), a member of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks since 1918, died in the battles for Moscow at the end of October 1941.

[aglet]

"It makes no sense."
I specifically ask you a question, are you going to fight for Abramovich's yacht and Rotenberg's palace? I answer in advance, I- no

[Zug]

You will of course forgive. But I do not think that the Red Army suffered a complete defeat. Well, yes, it was very battered and fragmented. It suffered heavy losses, but I think that the backbone, the ridge still remained, and a new army was built on its basis (I am not a pseudo-patriot and I look at things objectively)

[aglet]

". But I think that the backbone, the ridge still remains."
at the beginning of the war, the number of the red army was approximately 5 million people. by September, there were only 3,5 million prisoners, and how many were killed, wounded, surrounded? and this is precisely the backbone of the army, personnel units. the rest of the war was fought by militias and conscripts

[aglet]

"The alarmists fled in October and this fact does not disgrace the people"
Indeed, what to say about this, even if the headquarters of the western front asked Stalin for permission to relocate east of Moscow. not beetles, of course, but who is from his headquarters. and who from the headquarters could ask Stalin what without the permission of the front commander? so I'm wondering

[Alien From]

One of my favorite trilogies! Simonov is close to the truth. Smolensk land still remembers everything!

[aglet]

One of my favorite trilogies!
What other trilogies do you like?

[Alien From]

Trilogy of desires

[Bobrovsky]

Senior political instructor Simonov, who was escorted to the train by his wife, was on his way to the front. And he began to write a diary, writing it until the end of the war. Then he was published as a separate book, which is called "Different days of the war", it is also in his collected works. The film "The Living and the Dead" begins in exactly the same way, where everything that happened to Simonov himself is described one to one. A meeting with a regiment that successfully fought near Mogilev is described, and this regiment and the artillery regiment that helped it, 39 German tanks were knocked out during the day. Now on this field there is a monument about those battles. All conversations with the commander of the regiment, Colonel Kutepov Semyon Fedorovich Simonov described literally repeating all his words. So Serpilin is by no means a collective image. On the Internet, you can type the name of Kutepov and read about him, there is also a photograph of him. Those units where there were worthy commanders fought normally. And there were others. 20 years ago, I spoke with a colonel, the head of the investigative unit of the district. He said that they had received a request for the rehabilitation of a major, a former commander of a rifle battalion, who was shot in 1945. They did not have time to fight, in the morning a strong rumble began in the distance, to the north and south, and by evening it moved to the east. This major built a battalion and said - hear the roar went to the east, so that we are already surrounded, I propose to surrender. And he surrendered his entire battalion. One veteran recalled. In the morning it was reported that the war had begun and their regiment in full force moved forward, dug trenches and sat in them. And at lunchtime, the regiment commander ordered everyone to line up and led them to the regiment's location, to the barracks. There he offered to put himself in order, and after a short amount of time he built a regiment on the parade ground. And then the Germans drove up, the colonel reported to them that they were surrendering to the plan. And that is all. This veteran, when they were taken prisoner, left the column in the forest and then fought. So there were different commanders.

[Boris55]

Quote: ROSS 42

Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained.

In the first days of the war, the soldiers of the construction battalion, who were equipping new fortified areas, who did not really have weapons, were mainly captured. They were shown by the Goebel propaganda, but today the glamorous media are procrastinating ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Boris55

In the first days of the war, the soldiers of the construction battalion were mainly captured, who were equipping new fortified areas that did not really have weapons.

Here they traditionally pass up for this ...

[Doctor]

In the first days of the war, the soldiers of the construction battalion, who were equipping new fortified areas, who did not really have weapons, were mainly captured. They were shown by the Goebel propaganda, but today the glamorous media are procrastinating ...

Not all. Intelligent construction battalions prochuhil the situation.

I'll tell you a secret that at the meeting of the party activists, the reporter from the political department was asked questions about this, and he dodged answers in every possible way.
And when one pilot said that he himself more than once observed the movement of large military formations, do you know what this bastard said? You won't believe it! He said that it was perfectly understandable that the Germans were preparing a decisive strike against England and that there was a build-up of reserves for this strike ...
AND? As you like? A blow across the Channel, and the reserves near Warsaw ...
I, brother, told my Natasha that while she and the children are at home in Kiev, they have nothing to go here. We will wait about six months, and then we'll see ....

[vladcub]

"prochukhali situation" if only the commanders were with their heads. They found a way out of any situation.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

And commanders and chiefs will always find a way out of any situation on the spot. So it was in antiquity, and so now, and so it will be even in the XXXX century.

[Zug]

By the way, Isaev has it. Of course, I don’t remember about the number, but the fact that it took place is yes. Moreover, it seems that they were not supposed to have weapons.

[mole]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: ROSS 42

Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained.

In the first days of the war, the soldiers of the construction battalion, who were equipping new fortified areas, who did not really have weapons, were mainly captured. They were shown by the Goebel propaganda, but today the glamorous media are procrastinating ...

How did the soldier of the "construction battalion" differ from the infantry ???

[aglet]

"How did the soldier of the construction battalion differ from the infantry ???"
outwardly, or what? if outwardly, the lack of weapons. if or how - by the ability to dig, and not to dig.

[mole]

Quote: aglet

"How did the soldier of the construction battalion differ from the infantry ???"
outwardly, or what? if outwardly, the lack of weapons. if or how - by the ability to dig, and not to dig.

I would say: "The ability to wear" Akselbant ", the answer is uv." Akselbant "y.
Based on your logic, the infantry also knew how to shoot, and not shoot ???
Then who were described as Heroes in their memoirs !?

[aglet]

"Based on your logic, the infantry also knew how to shoot, and not shoot ???"
quite right, and shoot, and not shoot, from the personal weapons that she was taught to use. the soldier of the construction battalion has a weapon - a shovel, not a rifle. and he knows how to dig, not shoot. was it hard to understand? do you have to demand an explanation?

[Basil50]

42
The author played with naivety and did not consider the facts that are confirmed by documents. More and more reasoning.
Today there is an opportunity to look into the archives and they confirm the fact of Pavlov's betrayal and he was not the only one like that.
There is a lot of speculation about the mass surrender of the KRASNOARMEYTSEV, but there are orders from the German command about who to drive to concentration camps and how to keep them there. Scheduled
everything from convoy to mortality rates. So there it is very clearly indicated that any adult man can be considered a prisoner of war, at the discretion of any officer.
Military women were necessarily raped and killed. Women who were seized on the streets were locked up in brothels with mandatory protection from escapes and with a detailed punishment system.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: ROSS 42

the complete defeat of the Red Army and even the fact that in connection with the seizure of weapons depots by the German troops, the army had (according to the recollections of the front-line soldiers) one rifle for three.

Was this "rifle for three" a mass phenomenon? Or in a separate unit? How many front-line soldiers remembered this? My late father never talked about that. Although he went through the whole (!) War. He started in the infantry and finished in a separate IPTAP.

[Uncle lee]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

father didn’t talk about that

My father-in-law started in a penal battalion, went through the whole war, NEVER spoke about a "rifle for three" ... My dad too.

[tihonmarine]

Quote from Uncle Lee

My father-in-law started in a penal battalion, went through the whole war, NEVER spoke about a "rifle for three" ... My dad too.

This fake was invented under Khrushchev.

[Zug]

Look at the photo of 41 years old. There are plenty of clear examples.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

Look at the photo of 41 years old. There are plenty of clear examples.

Near Leningrad, 227th division.

[Zug]

Well, in war, as it were, they kill. What follows from the photo?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

Well, in war, as it were, they kill. What follows from the photo?

Nothing. You said to see a photo of 1941. I also posted a photo.

[Zug]

We just got distracted from the topic, but it will do

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

We just got distracted from the topic, but it will do

I think so too.

[Zug]

I'm afraid you exaggerated

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

I'm afraid you exaggerated

And then what is the point of exaggerating.

[Konnick]

Here is a photo of those who did not surrender, but remained to fight as partisans, border guards, even green caps kept, photo of 1944, operation Bagration. Long-awaited meeting

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote from Uncle Lee

My father-in-law started in a penal battalion

It's like, I'm ashamed to ask, is it possible to "start in the penal battalion"? A penalty battalion, in fact, for the middle and senior command personnel. In the free kick you can “continue”, not “start”, right? And order 227 was issued in July 1942, emnip.

[Eragon]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Quote from Uncle Lee

My father-in-law started in a penal battalion

It's like, I'm ashamed to ask, is it possible to "start in the penal battalion"? A penalty battalion, in fact, for the middle and senior command personnel. In the free kick you can “continue”, not “start”, right? And order 227 was issued in July 1942, emnip.

The person simply does not know that there were penal battalions - for commanders and penal battalions - for the rank and file. In both cases, no more than three months. The terms could be revised (and revised) both in the direction of decreasing the term, and in the direction of increasing. By the way, the tale of "redemption by blood" in battle is very widespread. In most cases, the period of cure after being wounded by the decision of the tribunal was included in the term of punishment, but by no means automatically and by no means always.

[Konnick]

There were OSHR, separate penal companies for officers. At the 28th OShR, under the command of Major Alexei Nikolaevich Lesik, my relative, an aircraft technician, was serving his sentence, having received the Medal of Courage for reconnaissance in force in a company, he left for his unit after the first battle. Google it, there is a lot of material about this company on the Internet.

[sniperino]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

It's like, I'm ashamed to ask, you can "start in the penal battalion"?

It was possible to start serving in a penal company, where criminals were taken from prison on their own initiative (not all). And conscripts became servicemen from the moment they came to the military registration and enlistment office and received a soldier instead of a passport: it was possible to get under the tribunal without reaching the unit.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: sniperino

It was possible to start serving in a penal company, where criminals were taken from prison on their own initiative (not all).

Ehm ... That is, his father-in-law of criminals ????

[sniperino]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

his father-in-law from criminals ????

I gave two options for starting service in a penal company. I confess that I am not interested in the biography of a completely unfamiliar father-in-law of a person who is familiar only from the comments on VO.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

My relatives also fought, but this also did not exist - here are some cartridges for a rifle, this was the case on some days. And I believe that. And the fact that people fought, not always eating. But they survived and came to Berlin in May 1945!

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Was this "rifle for three" a mass phenomenon?

When on January 1, 1942, about 3 million rifles were lost or abandoned. Then the order of the Headquarters came out, according to those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: tihonmarine

Then the order of the Headquarters came out, on those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

Can I have the order number?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Can I have the order number?

Maybe, where it is, I was not looking, but believed my father and my surviving uncles.
There was also such an order not to leave the wounded to the enemy. And they didn't. Maybe you haven't heard of this either?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

There was also such an order not to leave the wounded to the enemy. And they didn't.

Do you want to say - finished off?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do you want to say - finished off?

Yes. Found in "Myasny Bor" and in the Rzhev area.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

Yes. Found in "Myasny Bor" and in the Rzhev area.

Found who, what? Who carried out the examination and came to the conclusion that they were wounded and finished off by their own?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Found who, what? Who carried out the examination and came to the conclusion that they were wounded and finished off by their own?

We also had experts in the search teams, I will not describe, this is not for "ears", but in these two cases about which I wrote, everything is visible there without any special expertise.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

I will, this is not for "ears", but in these two cases about which I wrote, everything is visible there without any special expertise.

What is visible? What did they finish off their own? Are you serious? Maybe the Germans, temporarily seizing positions, finished off the wounded? Your "experts" are not serious.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What is visible? What did they finish off their own? Are you serious? Or maybe the Germans, temporarily seizing positions, finished off the wounded?

And that I am in the skull, the remains of the wounded lying in the dugout, I cannot distinguish a TT bullet from a Walter, and next to this dugout was an NKVD sergeant with an empty TT in a holster.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: tihonmarine

And that I am in the skull, the remains of the wounded lying in the dugout, I cannot distinguish a TT bullet from a Walter, and next to this dugout was an NKVD sergeant with an empty TT in a holster.

And this is all evidence? This is not direct evidence. And you have already come up with an "order" from this. The accusation is too serious to assert anything on the basis of this.

[Zug]

I know that they blew up the wounded right in the back of the car. We found the remains later ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

I know that they blew up the wounded right in the back of the car. We found the remains later ...

Now it is no longer possible, but 20-30 years ago, you could ask the residents where the operation "Thunder" was carried out.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: tihonmarine

There was also such an order not to leave the wounded to the enemy. And they didn't. Maybe you haven't heard of this either?

No, I have not. Order number please

Quote: tihonmarine

, I did not seek, but believed my father and my surviving uncles.

I prefer to believe the documents, not someone's 'uncles', sorry.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

I prefer to believe the documents, not someone's 'uncles', sorry.

Ask those who fought in the Second World War, they know it.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: tihonmarine

Ask those who fought in the Second World War, they know it.

Is this a joke?
I find it unsuccessful.
I understand that there will be no links to documents?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Is this a joke?
I find it unsuccessful.

This is a joke to you. And my parents, uncles and grandfathers were alive in the 60s, so we learned history from their stories, not documents, and then there was no trace of "references".

[aglet]

"And my parents, uncles and grandfathers were alive in the 60s, so we learned history from their stories."
a soldier sees his platoon, and a kilometer of land in front of him, his horizons are very narrow. he could only know what was happening to him, and even then, he forgot a lot, for 20 years

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

I understand that there will be no links to documents?

It is clear that the generation of sneakers cannot be without a reference. I don’t want it, if it is, my generation didn’t have links, because even in St. Petersburg, only every 10th had a home phone. If you want, look, but not everything can still be found.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: tihonmarine

It is clear that the generation of sneakers cannot do without a reference.

I do not belong to the specified generation. I don't quite understand what caused this grumpy escapade - I just asked for the number of the order and no more. It was considered good form to back up one's words with documents in the blessed Soviet times. Pretentious whining with links 'the uncles said' is, you know, for Mitrofanushkas. I am not interested in fine epos; I have been sick for twenty years with a weakness for memoirs.

Quote: tihonmarine

my generation "did not have references,

Had, dear, had. But for this it was necessary to visit a reading room and have at least a 16-volume BIE in the home library. Or study at a specialized university. Do not sign for the whole generation.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

I don’t quite understand what caused this obese escapade - I simply asked for the number of the order and no more.

Everyone who is interested knows orders No. 270 and 272.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: tihonmarine

know orders number 270

Order 270 to this nonsense of yours:

Quote: tihonmarine

When on January 1, 1942, about 3 million rifles were lost or abandoned. Then the order of the Headquarters came out, according to those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

has nothing to do, sorry.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

But for this it was necessary to visit a reading room and have at least a 16-volume BIE in the home library.

Maybe the Soviet Historical Encyclopedia in 16 volumes. And BIE came out after the coup.

[aglet]

"There was also such an order not to leave the wounded to the enemy. And they did not. Maybe you haven't heard of that either?"
and what, without an order, the wounded were thrown? and then immediately refocused, and stopped throwing?

[Zug]

Even the medical staff needed to pull a wounded soldier from the battlefield with a weapon.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Zug

Even the medical staff needed to pull a wounded soldier from the battlefield with a weapon.

That's right, pull out the weapon.

[Zug]

order 270 of 41

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Zug

Even the medical staff needed to pull a wounded soldier from the battlefield with a weapon.

Are you talking about Order 281?

[Zug]

i found number 270

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Zug

i found number 270

where is it about

Quote: Zug

Even the medical staff needed to pull a wounded soldier from the battlefield with a weapon.

[Zug]

This is not from the order. You asked for the number, I found it. Maybe this is not the order, I do not dispute or prove.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Zug

You asked for a number - I found it.

I asked for an order that would include this:

Quote: tihonmarine

When on January 1, 1942, about 3 million rifles were lost or abandoned. Then the order of the Headquarters came out, according to those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

Order 270 does not correlate somewhat either in terms of date or content.
As for the "wounded with weapons", the closest thing to this is the Order of the Headquarters No. 281, which concerned the encouragement of medical personnel for the removal of the wounded from the battlefield from their rifles or light machine guns... The Order does not directly oblige only with weapons and nothing else. But there is his schizophrenic interpretation of the "Red Star" - the article "Not a single wounded person with his weapon should be left on the battlefield!" (No. 201 (4956) dated 27.08.1941)

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

As for the "wounded with weapons", the closest thing to this is the Headquarters Order No. 281, which concerned the encouragement of medical personnel for removing the wounded from the battlefield with their rifles or light machine guns. Directly, the Order does not oblige to endure only with weapons and in no other way. But

The focus of the order is to increase the motivation of the medical staff to carry out his personal weapon with the wounded. All! Brought out with a weapon - get gratitude and candy. And if the nurse carried the wounded man out without his weapon, then just gratitude. But due to the fact that the removal of the wounded is the direct responsibility of the orderly (nurses), then they did without gratitude.
For every downed plane, downed tank, money was paid, this is in addition to awards. For what? To increase motivation. And it was right.

[Zug]

Should I quote orders to you from memory? I sent you a number, everything is written there. Was there an order about weapons? And where did I have to come with him - to the medical battalion or to the other world on the drum. You wanted and DEMAND the number of the order there? Here is the number. There it is written in black and white about the responsibility for leaving the weapon. You should be glad and grateful that people responded. to your requests and you start to play with 5 points. That does not display. This does not correlate ... What a childhood. Then you, as some will demand the document itself with a seal, you will be sent a copy of it. You say it is a fake, send it to me at home The original. It will be sent to you and you tell. Bring the paper for examination and provide the results and even after that you will say: This is heresy, this was not.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Zug

Should I quote orders to you from memory?

You are kindly requested - when you enter into polemics with an opponent, make a small quote from your opponent's post. And it will immediately become clear with whom you are polemicizing. And then, in this case, it turned out that with me, since your post goes right after mine.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Zug

You should be glad and grateful that people responded to your requests and you start playing with 5 points.

Dear, let's go without foam. Let's rewind and finish the pick. My opponent wrote:

Quote: tihonmarine

When on January 1, 1942, about 3 million rifles were lost or abandoned. Then the order of the Headquarters came out, according to those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

and further

Quote: tihonmarine

There was also such an order not to leave the wounded to the enemy. And they didn't. Maybe you haven't heard of this either?

I asked for a number. Project 270 was released not in the 42nd, but in August of the 41st. In it, of course, there is not and could not be about any "wounded without weapons". I am not even going to discuss the nonsense about "not taking to the hospital". Those that finished off their own were bombed by columns of prisoners, etc. by order of the rate - well, I do not want to chew this strawberry, thank you. What about fifth point - your client has it much more nimble. My own tediousness can be explained by the following - these are "I learned history from the stories of uncles", composing the orders of the Headquarters or very freely interpreting them and sculpting their own, individual matrix of pseudo-history, then whine about "rewriting history" and consider themselves its only guardians, patriots without fear and reproach.
Hope we got it clearer?

[Zug]

ORDER OF THE RATE OF THE SUPREME CHIEF COMMAND No. 270 ON THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MILITARY SERVICES FOR THE DELIVERY OF WEAPONS TO THE ENEMY

16 1941 of August
.............................................. The order itself is long- I will not publish
Headquarters of the Supreme High Command of the Red Army

Chairman of the State Defense Committee I. STALIN, Deputy. Chairman of the State Defense Committee V. MOLOTOV, Marshal of the Soviet Union S. BUDENNY, Marshal of the Soviet Union K. VOROSHILOV, Marshal of the Soviet Union S. TIMOSHENKO, Marshal of the Soviet Union B. SHAPOSHNIKOV, General of the Army G. ZHUKOV

[aglet]

"August 16, 1941
.............................................. The order itself is long- I will not publish
Headquarters of the Supreme High Command of the Red Army "
you'd better publish the text of the order, it is not that big and than the signatures. and this order for deserters and surrendered

[qQQQ]

Quote: tihonmarine

Then the order of the Headquarters came out, on those who abandoned their weapons, and even the wounded without weapons were not taken to the hospital.

If you read historians, then there was no shortage of small arms. And on those who threw down their weapons, in my opinion, in this way they fought with alarmists and deserters. The issue of stripping stripes and loss of documents was considered in the same way.

[geniy]

In connection with the seizure of weapons depots by the German troops, the army had (according to the recollections of the front-line soldiers) one rifle for three.

Why did the Germans seize many weapons depots?

[Doctor]

UNSUFFICIENT ... Here is the most appropriate definition for this.

Right.
The main question - the reasons for the confusion?

[svp67]

Quote: ROSS 42

I would not make statements so categorically about the mass surrender of Soviet soldiers.

Here the question is very difficult, to say that there was no mass surrender, but at the same time, by July 11, 1941, as a result of the defeat of our Western Front, 328 people were captured in German captivity.
For the entire time of the battles for the Brest Fortress, the Germans captured about 7000 servicemen of the fortress garrison, of which more than 22 soldiers and commanders were on June 24-4000.
That at the same time does not negate the courage of our ancestors. Forgive me, but when a division or a regiment were forced to "stretch" two or three times more than it should be according to the regulations, then it is almost unrealistic to keep the advancing enemy.

[IL-18]

Quote: ROSS 42

UNSUFFICIENT ... Here is the most appropriate definition for this.

The Germans also made an effort to this. These are strikes on airfields, for example, which led to an insufficient number of reconnaissance sorties to clarify the situation, and surprise, not in the sense that we did not expect anything (we were ahead of us with mobilization and pulling up the required number of troops in a fully operational state), and a whole bunch of everything associated with the lack of organization of the period of the formation of the same mechanized corps and rifle divisions, and the list of reasons will continue to grow. By the way, the reorganization did not affect the cavalry at that time. And according to the reports, she showed herself quite well. Only the type of troops for that time was too specific to influence something strongly.
In order not to go into the volume of the article, I will simply note that you are correct in saying that a huge number of our servicemen were taken prisoner, for many reasons, but THIS WAS NOT A MASS DELIVERY TO POWERS.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: IL-18

The Germans also made an effort to this.

))))
Also?

[Doctor]

In order not to go into the volume of the article, I will simply note that you are correct in saying that a huge number of our servicemen were taken prisoner, for many reasons, but THIS WAS NOT A MASS DELIVERY TO POWERS.

On the contrary. The masses are driven by the herd instinct.
Here is the real world of the Second World War.

There is, of course, a huge difference between the sensations of a person who has been captured in a large mass, when hundreds and thousands of soldiers who find themselves in a stalemate throw down their weapons and raise their hands, and the sensations of one person who suddenly finds himself face to face with a group of enemies directed at it was blown by its machine guns.

One wrong step, gesture or the slightest mistake - and instead of a living prisoner, a corpse with a bullet in the head will lie on the ground ...
I realized this at once, the soldier's machine gun almost touched my head!

In any position, the transition of a soldier to the position of a prisoner is accompanied by a psychological shock, but this shock is much more tangible and painful for a loner than for “one of many”.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Arzt

Here is the real world of the Second World War.

and who did you quote?

[Doctor]

and who did you quote?

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/paliy_pn/index.html

Everything happened very quickly and simply.

Only near the edge of the forest were the Red Army men visible, further in the forest it was completely deserted and quiet. When we were leaving the forest, a passenger car with lieutenants overtook us and quickly began to move forward along the road. Suddenly it threw itself several times, enveloped in a cloud of dust and smoke and exploded. Our chauffeur screamed, let go of the steering wheel and fell head first. The car skidded along the road, rolled into a ditch and ran into a pile of rubble. The glass of the cockpit shattered into smithereens, an explosion was heard in the back, in the back. We came under direct fire. I jumped out of the cab and fell on my outstretched arms into the ditch. Stunned by the explosion and fall, experiencing severe pain in my arm and leg, quite instinctively, I tried to unfasten the holster and pull out my Tula pistol with a single thought in my head: “Germans! Germans! right at them came "... I did not have time to pull out the weapon.

- Halt ... Halt ... Hände hoch!

Several soldiers leaned on me and, grabbing my hands, dragged me out onto the road. On both sides of the road, in a wide arc, a thin line of Germans marched across the fields. A young German officer was standing above me, smiling at me, lying in the dust, on the road, at his feet.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

So they would have written - Pyotr Nikolaevich Paliy.

[DrEng527]

Quote: IL-18

but THIS WAS NOT A MASS POWDER.

"The German command in the official data indicates the number of 5 million 270 thousand people. According to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the loss of prisoners amounted to 4 million 559 thousand people" are we playing with words?
"In total, at Vyazma and Bryansk, more than 688 thousand Soviet soldiers and officers were taken prisoner, only about 85 thousand managed to get out of the encirclement." this is not the very beginning of the war ...

[IL-18]

In your opinion, these hundreds of thousands waited for an opportune moment, and went to the enemy with a crowd of squads, raising their hands?
Or is it still surrounded by Vyazma, Kiev, Uman, Kharkov?

[DrEng527]

Quote: IL-18

In your opinion, these hundreds of thousands waited for an opportune moment, and went to the enemy with a crowd of squads, raising their hands?

it happened in different ways, do not forget there were great social upheavals in the country, and if there are millions of prisoners, then they surrendered en masse, this is a fact

Quote: IL-18

Or is it still surrounded

I draw your attention to the behavior of the Germans in the boiler near Demyansk, and in Stalingrad ... the analogies are not very pleasant, but honest ...

[IL-18]

Quote: DrEng527

honest ...

The inability and simply the impossibility of concentrating those corresponding to the statutory norms in the areas of German strikes with the subsequent breakthrough of our defense of sufficient forces, speaks of the speed of exhaustion of the capabilities to conduct a DB, and not of "mass surrender." Study, if you are ready to question the prevailing stereotype, our actions before surrendering in the Uman and Kiev boilers. Here it is better to pay attention to the brilliant planning and timing of the attack on the USSR by the German command. And then, by echelon, to smash unmobilized divisions stretched along a line of 30 km of the front, with subsequent coverage in depth is a matter of technology. Because of General Vlasov, the actions of the 15MK near Lvov, who then commanded him, have been modestly hushed up for almost 80 years, but they acted successfully, and withdrew as organized as possible under those conditions. And 2UA fought surrounded until the full exhaustion of opportunities. But again, the figure of Vlasov.

[DrEng527]

Quote: IL-18

Inability and simply inability to concentrate

you have an ostrich position - instead of accepting the facts, you move on to a broad discussion, moving away from the essence ...

Quote: IL-18

our actions before delivery in the Uman and Kiev boilers.

this does not negate the fact that the front-line groupings of troops were not able to organize a perimeter defense and fight for a long time surrounded ... I read the memoirs of one general, in the early 41st. the operational department of the army in the Vyazemsky cauldron - so he directly writes that everything was for defense for several weeks, but the command ordered an end to organized resistance and break through in groups ...

Quote: IL-18

Here it is better to pay attention to the brilliant planning and timing of the attack on the USSR by the German command.

or illiterate management by the top leadership of the Red Army and the USSR!

Quote: IL-18

And then, by echelon, to smash unmobilized divisions stretched along the front line along 30 km, with subsequent coverage in depth is a matter of technology.

one might think that illiterate entry into the war is a given, and not the result of the actions of the command of the Red Army and the country's leadership ...

Quote: IL-18

But again, the figure of Vlasov.

think about why a successful general surrendered ...

[boris epstein]

The same Halder, in his "War Diary" about the first days of the war, repeatedly writes that there were surprisingly few prisoners of war, that Soviet soldiers fought bravely. And the number of prisoners is a moot point. Why? I will try to justify.
1. All male population of the USSR from 15 to 60 years old was considered prisoners.
2. Even the German figures themselves differ from one author to another. Now Western authors and "dear" liberals are promoting the number of prisoners in the Kiev cauldron 420. And Heinz Guderian, in his "Memories of a Soldier", writes about only 000. Also a lot, but half as much. Why such a difference? The entire Kiev group consisted of 200 soldiers and officers. The Germans crossed the Dnieper south of Kiev (hello to AA Vlasov and his 000th Army, which withdrew without an order), and Guderian's Panzer Group was redirected south from the Moscow direction. But now it is not written anywhere that there were two attacks by the Kiev group on a breakthrough. One — strictly east — distracting. And it was commanded by the commander of the Kiev UR Kirponos. The group was stopped and defeated, Kirponos shot himself in the Shumeikovo tract, the documents of the headquarters were destroyed. But the main breakthrough was more successful - to the southwest with a turn to the south. He was more successful. About 650 people emerged from the encirclement.
And in general, reading Halder, I realized that his book should be able to read. There are many footnotes and notes.
For example, about the garrison of the Brest Fortress. The commander of the 31st Infantry Division from the corps of General Schroth, who stormed the fortress, writes about the superior forces of the enemy.
I read a lot about the Brest Fortress, where the 6th Orel and 42 rifle divisions were stationed there before the war. Both were significantly understaffed - 8000 people instead of 12000. Not all units were in the fortress - they were in Zhabinka and Kobrin. From June 16, the withdrawal of troops to Belovezhskaya Pushcha began. 18 of the 26 battalions were withdrawn. The 6th Oryol Division fought until the end of the war and crushed the Kwantung Army, for which it received the honorary naming of the Oryol-Khingan. The 42nd Division was disbanded after the battles near Moscow due to heavy losses. What is the superiority of the garrison over Schroth's corps (15st and 000th infantry divisions, full-blooded 31 men each)?

[DrEng527]

Quote: ROSS 42

I would not make statements so categorically about the mass surrender of Soviet soldiers.

so where did they come from "The German command in the official data indicates the number of 5 million 270 thousand people. According to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the loss of prisoners amounted to 4 million 559 thousand people."

[Lara Croft]

Quote: ROSS 42

I would not make statements so categorically about the mass surrender of Soviet soldiers.

As a result of high-intensity battles in most directions, the l / s was simply "mowed down" by the enemy ... ... what kind of surrender is there, changing positions and preparing them for a new battle ...

Imagine a situation when, of all belonging to the Red Army, only uniforms remained.

A frequent occurrence, here the author talks about specific armies that met the enemy in the first hours of the war, but what about those that were formed a few months after the start of the war ...
Take the 50th Army as an example, about which in the VIKI, in terms of its participation in the Moscow battle, almost nothing is written, and it was she who stood to death for the gunsmiths city of Tula.
It was only to this city that she got almost in a shattered state, in which state it is well written in VIKI:
“On October 7, the three armies of the Bryansk Front turned 180 degrees and began to break through from the encirclement. By October 23, the following left the 50th Army:

217-I (up to 1600 people led by the division commander Colonel Grachev with three batteries (16 guns and 6 mortars) and the communications battalion were detained by the command of the 173rd rifle division in the Belev area),
278-I (headed by the deputy chief of the political department, battalion commissar Zinoviev - 357 people... There is no information about the division commander, Colonel Meleshko, where the division headquarters is unknown),
290-I (1524 (according to other sources - 2119) a man headed by the division commander, Colonel Ryakin, 1005 rifles, 5 light and 1 heavy machine gun),
299-I (1320 people, 13 mortars, four 45-mm cannons, six 76-mm cannons, four 122-mm and four 76-mm PA, 12 heavy machine guns, 9 light machine guns),
279-I (1500 people),
260-I (headed by the commander of the division, Colonel Ukrainian - 404 men with 280 rifles, without machine guns and artillery),
154-I (up to 1400 people with artillery in the amount of 3 cannons, 16 machine guns, there is no headquarters and commander) rifle divisions.
According to the report of A. I. Eremenko, by October 20, 1941, 1600 people from the 217th rifle division, 1524 people from the 290th, completely two regiments with artillery from the 154th, entered the Belev region. "

The 50th Army was formed in August 1941, even if we imagine that all the divisions of the Army were staffed according to new staffing tables (11 thousand people, there were fewer people than in the old personnel SD), then one can imagine how many people were lost in two months of hostilities ...
The 50th Army staunchly defended Tula in the Moscow battle, along with Belov's KMK, also inflicted counterattacks on the enemy ...
The 50th Army took part in the liberation of the BSSSR, took Konigsberg ...
Almost all the commanders of those armies that participated in the Moscow battle became or general. army or marshals ...

[svp67]

Quote: Stroporez

The cadre units of the Red Army fought very steadfastly, and this is a fact.

And that is why the Germans ended up in Minsk on the fifth day?

[strannik1985]

The average daily rate of the spacecraft offensive in Jassy - Kishinevskaya, Vistula - Oder, Prague FNO is 25-45 km / day, maximum 60-90 km / day. Somewhere deep in the rear of the TA / AK (mot), the infantry that has not been finished off is still fighting, and the advancing troops have gone far ahead.

[svp67]

Quote: strannik1985

The average daily rate of the spacecraft offensive in Jassy - Kishinevskaya, Vistula - Oder, Prague FNO is 25-45 km / day, maximum 60-90 km / day.

While the conversation is about 1941.

[strannik1985]

While the conversation

The principles are common to all.

[IL-18]

Quote: svp67

the Germans ended up in Minsk on the fifth day

And only two fully manned mobile tank groups should have been enough to carry out this on the third day. And in this situation, neither Manstein, nor Model, nor Montgomery, nor Vasilevsky, no one at all would have shown themselves better than D.G. Pavlov.
And in their memoirs, all these authors of lost victories, almost from the description of the first day of the war against the Soviet Union, squeal about the absence or delay of the infantry, which, due to the misbehavior of the Russians, is forced to fight at the border, and not follow the tank and mechanized corps.

[svp67]

Quote: IL-18

And in this situation neither Manstein, nor Model, nor Montgomery, nor Vasilevsky, no one at all would have shown themselves better than D.G. Pavlov.

And nevertheless, here is what the Germans wrote about the battles in the Baltic states:
"The persistence of the enemy was convincing; the number of tanks participating in his counterattacks was striking. It was an enemy with a steel will, who ruthlessly, but not without knowledge of operational art, threw his troops into battle. There were no grounds for serious fears, but it was already clear one thing: there could be no question of "destroying the house of cards" with quick blows. Here the campaign will not proceed as systematically as the previous ones. "
(K.Tippelskirch "History of the Second World War")
But they did not have such an opinion about the battles against the Western Front.

[IL-18]

Quote: svp67

World War ")
But they did not have such an opinion about the battles against the Western Front.

KamAZ has no opinion against the locomotive at full speed either.

[Zug]

And in general, how did they come to Moscow by the end of October? The question is complex and ambiguous. And "hurray for the patriots" it is not to their liking.

[boris epstein]

Hello already to DG Pavlov. In the early days of the war, Zhukov ordered the roads to be saddled. Pavlov, on the other hand, smeared the troops, he made a mistake with the transfer of an anti-tank regiment near Molodechno, when Zhukov gave orders to Lida. IPTAP could beat the tank group of Goth and, if not stopped, then slow down its breakthrough and prevent the boiler.

[chenia]

Quote: svp67

And that is why the Germans ended up in Minsk on the fifth day?

On the fifth day in Minsk - this is the result of the measures taken to reorganize the Red Army (taking into account that there will be no war in 1941, the Germans are not ready and that is absolutely fair). And when they realized that Hitler could go on an adventure. it was too late to change the course of the reorganization (which led to the chaos in the formations (especially in the BTV), and the BP was buried).
This is the main reason for the failure of 1941

The fault is purely military. And the cover plan, in general, is not bad if it were implemented by the Red Army arr. 1944 (and even 1943) No, well, imagine the strike of 6 TA (MK-40. Approximately corresponds to TA), on the German divisions standing in the back of the head without a hint for defense.
The entire Wehrmacht would be turned inside out (well, at least Army Group Center).

[modun]

again the notorious myth about German machines

[KCA]

It is only Russophobes and Deutschephiles who can claim this, Soviet films and modern ones made a great contribution to this myth, where all Germans are without exception armed with submachine guns, but from the beginning of World War II and until its end, the main weapons of the German infantry were Mauser carbines, but in the Red Army, the share of PP at the end of the war exceeded the number of rifles and automatic rifles, which greatly helped in urban battles during the liberation of Europe

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: KCA

where without exception all the Germans are armed with submachine guns, however, from the beginning of World War II and until its end, the main weapons of the German infantry were Mauser carbines

So it is ... but read it, just in case , my answer to MODUN, shouting about the "notorious myth about German machine guns"!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: KCA

It is only Russophobes and Deutschephiles who can claim this.

Interesting as well

Major Commander of the 57th Tank Regiment of the 29th Tank Division Iosif Cheryapkin

, whom Madame Frolova is citing here, what category does it belong to?

[IL-18]

Here the truth is somewhere in the middle. The construction of the German infantry squad around the machine gun made it possible to create a high density of fire, and the MP-40 had at least one per squad, which also added fire in close combat. By the way, the Germans thought at first that ours were completely armed with light machine guns, thanks to the saturation of the rifle formations of the Red Army with automatic rifles. And the SVT will be more interesting than the MP-40.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: IL-18

By the way, the Germans thought at first that ours were completely armed with light machine guns.

Where did you get this from?

[IL-18]

Wow ... Sometime in the early 2000s. Then a lot of things came out. The only thing that at that time interested me most of all was the materials coming from the protocols of interrogation of German prisoners of war. Well, it's just that the period 1938-1942 is still the most interesting for me. And the reference to the archives, as for the former staff clerk, to put it mildly, is a reason for doubting the full reliability.

[Nikolay Ivanov_5]

The main and eternal scourge in our country is the concealment of the true state of affairs, which was at all times, for example, as Prince Potemkin ordered to build fake villages along the route of Empress Catherine II's trip ...

[Nikolay Ivanov_5]

The main and eternal scourge in our country is the concealment of the true state of affairs, which was at all times, for example, as Prince Potemkin ordered to build fake villages along the route of the trip of Empress Catherine II ...

[Alien From]

And what? It was not your Yura who lived in the dugout and ate the roots !!!!

[Gardamir]

how Prince Potemkin ordered to build fake villages

The construction of your phrase is such that it is not clear whether you are condemning those who invented this tale, or whether you believe in a lie. Then, on a trip to Novorossiya, Catherine was accompanied by such "honest lovers" of Russia, an Austrian field marshal and diplomat, also a French historian and diplomat., Ambassadors of the Roman emperor and English. And of course they were "proud" of Russia's development.

[meandr51]

As if in other countries history is pure and virgin. Each country has its own version of the official history, in which it plays a central role and does not make any mistakes.

[IL-18]

Aha, only mistakes of Russia are hypertrophied to absurd proportions, and the "local" ones always receive a liberal justification.

[Pravodel]

again the notorious myth about German machines

This, too, shuddered. MR 38/40/41, which is now commonly called Schmeiser, was produced in small batches at the beginning of the war and was not intended for combat units. They were armed, first of all, by tankmen, troops, motorized infantry, SS units. Therefore, the sight of the advancing German soldiers with their sleeves rolled up and fumbling from machine guns in 41 is more of a myth than a reality. Combat infantry units were armed with Mauser rifles of various modifications.
For your information::
MP38 / 40 in 1940-1941 December. in total, about 1 million copies were made. Given the size of the German army, the troops could not be massively armed with machine guns, assault rifles.

But, in any case, honor and praise to our soldiers who survived in that terrible war and defended the Fatherland from the horror of fascism !!!

[evgen1221]

I will add that in the initial period the Germans had automatic weapons in our films, there is an artistic technique for instilling the idea of ​​propaganda that the enemy is very strong and disciplined and we once again need to overcome and defeat at any cost. Agitprop is like that in Africa.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Modun

again the notorious myth about German machines

And yet ... Even in Soviet times, I read the book-memoirs of the cavalry general Belov, who fought in 1941 near Moscow ... He paid considerable attention in the book to German "machine guns" (submachine guns), saying that there were a significant number of them and our units (dismounted cavalrymen) suffered considerable losses in close combat! He also wrote that our soldiers "hunted" for German machine guns and did not give them to the "trophyers" contrary to orders! An episode is even described when Belov, at a reception with Stalin, asked to give permission to Belov's cavalrymen to leave "schmeisers" on a "legal basis" ... taking the German machine guns ... (there were so many of them)! Moreover, the book contains information that the commander of the unit, in the location of which the "encircled" came out, "laid eyes" on this weapon!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

"Schmeisers" on a "legal basis" ... And in Simonov's book "The Living and the Dead" there is an episode when a detachment that emerged from the encirclement was actually disarmed, taking away German machine guns ... (there were so many of them)! Moreover,

This is an ARTISTIC WORK, you cannot refer to it!
Most likely in the tank and motorized divisions of the Wehrmacht, and these were IMPACT units, it was they who were the tip of those "wedges that pierced our defenses, there were certainly infantry units. So maybe they had" Schmeisers. " Mauser. "Maybe that's why the advancing infantry units as part of tank and motorized units were spotted with the" Schmeiser "

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

This is an ARTISTIC WORK, you cannot refer to it!

"The Living and the Dead" by Simonov-Yes! And what about the memoirs (!) Of Belov P.A. , the commander of the 2nd Cavalry Corps? You can read his memoirs: "Moscow is behind us" ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

"The Living and the Dead" by Simonov-Yes! And what about the memoirs (!) Of Belov P.A. , the commander of the 2nd Cavalry Corps? You can read his memoirs: "Moscow is behind us" ...

I respect General Belov. But ... He's not a writer. And therefore, it is quite possible that someone "artistically" designed the text written under dictation.
But it may have been so. percussion Panzer and motorized divisions of the Wehrmacht had infantry regiments. So, perhaps, they were armed with a "shmaysar". And the rest of the Wehrmacht infantry units, which form the basis of the Wehrmacht, were armed with a Mauser rifle.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

In the shock tank and motorized divisions of the Wehrmacht there were infantry regiments. So, perhaps, they were armed with a "shmaysar"

Nonsense. The motorized infantry was armed with the same equipment as the regular infantry.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Nonsense. The motorized infantry was armed with the same equipment as the regular infantry.

Indeed, you are talking nonsense! The motorized infantry of the motorized and tank divisions, the infantry of the infantry divisions had all the same a different number of weapons!
But what is the difference between motorized infantry and conventional infantry? It would seem that the answer lies on the surface - the motorized infantry has vehicles: trucks, or even armored personnel carriers. Actually, that's why it is called "motorized infantry". However, if we talk about German motorized infantry, then it had differences in weapons. Let's start with the fact that in the motorized infantry department (ten people) there were two light machine guns, while the usual infantry squad has one. This greatly increased the firepower. If we move on to larger formations - battalions, then in 1942 the motorized infantry battalion (very approximately 800 plus people) in unarmored vehicles had about 58 light and 14 heavy machine guns, while the infantry battalion had about 27 light and 12 heavy machine guns. A motorized infantry battalion on an armored personnel carrier could add machine guns on its combat vehicles to the same number, which ultimately gave it about 107 light machine guns and 12 heavy machine guns (in fact, even more if you count the machine guns of all combat vehicles in general). the main directions of the offensive could receive additional weapons; incl. and small automatic!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Let's start with the fact that in the motorized infantry department (ten people) there were as many as two light machine guns

And what is this calculation of machine guns for? It was about personal weapons. And specifically about submachine guns.

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Assault (forward) subunits in the main directions of the offensive could receive additional weapons; incl. and small automatic!

Your guesses and assumptions are a weighty argument, I do not argue) Could have received, could not have received. And if you received - then necessarily MP40. In general, Belov wrote about StG 44 - and try to argue

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

And what is this calculation of machine guns for? It was about personal weapons. And specifically about submachine guns.

So you are not only "about submachine guns" ...! You are talking about the charters and the staff structure! According to the regulations, you have one machine gun per squad; and I answer that there are two bulos! I also had to read that the advancing units in the "priority" directions received additional weapons (in terms of quantity and "assortment" ...) ... not according to the "staff", not according to the charter!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

So you are not only "about submachine guns" ...! You are talking about the charters and the staff structure

I appealed to the charter in a reply to the comment about "a significant number of submachine guns" that General Belov mentions - what is wrong? In it, I specifically wrote about PP, which meant "machines". Not about machine guns, not about sniper rifles, not about mortars, not about pistols, not about carts, not about horses, not about the number of horns and drums.

Quote: Nikolaevich I

I also had to read

This is the argument)

Quote: Nikolaevich I

the advancing units in the "priority" directions received additional weapons

That is, in your opinion, panzergrenadiers received MP98 in addition to 40k, or what?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Nonsense. The motorized infantry was armed with the same equipment as the regular infantry.

I write - it is possible. This would be the logic - increasing the offensive power of the regiment (battalion, company)

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

This would be the logic - an increase in offensive power

and how can the MP40 "increase power" in the offensive?

[UA3QHP]

And what about the propaganda cinematography of the Wehrmacht? So even there, the bulk of the soldiers with rifles and on foot.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Ua3qhp

And what about the propaganda cinematography of the Wehrmacht? So even there, the bulk of the soldiers with rifles and on foot.

Because an ordinary infantry unit got into the frame. Non-motorized infantry.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

And what about the memoirs (!) Of Belov P.A.

Yes, whatever. Memoiristics is a specific genre.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

But still...

What exactly is it? According to the charter of 1938, in the rifle platoon, the PP are armed with only com. platoon (for him, according to the regulations of the PP was worn by the bugler of the platoon) and the commanders of each of the 4 squads - a total of 5 MP38 / 40 (or captured PP) for 49 people. h.p. I would not call it

Quote: Nikolaevich I

significant amount

And, by God, speaking of a work of art, the phrase "contains information" is hardly appropriate)

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

According to the charter of 1938, the rifle platoon of the PP are armed with only com. platoon (for him, according to the regulations of the PP was worn by the bugler of the platoon) and the commanders of each of the 4 squads - a total of 5 MP38 / 40 (or captured PP) for 49 people. h.p. I would not call it
Quote: Nikolaevich I
significant amount

1.In the mechanized infantry squad (ten people) there were as many as two light machine guns, while in the ordinary infantry squad - one. 2. The motorized infantry battalion on unarmored transport had about 58 light and 14 heavy machine guns, while the infantry battalion had about 27 light and 12 heavy machine guns. A motorized infantry battalion on an armored personnel carrier could add machine guns on its combat vehicles to the same number, which ultimately gave it about 107 light machine guns and 12 heavy machine guns (in fact, even more if you count the machine guns of all combat vehicles in general). the main directions of the offensive could receive additional weapons; incl. and small automatic!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Do not spread your thoughts, dear. It was about submachine guns. Why is this speech?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

What is this speech for?

Duc, and you, our golden, whole charter have recalled!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

integral charter

I, at least, did not begin to quote him. And what the fuck have machine guns got to do with it? There was also a mortar squad in the rifle platoon - would you like to count the mortars?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

what the fuck have machine guns got to do with it?

Yes, despite the fact that you now and then refer to the charter! According to you, if according to the charter (staff structure) there is one submachine gun, one machine gun per squad ... then there shouldn't be anything else! Moreover, according to you, the entire Wehrmacht (all divisions) has the same "charter" (staff structure)!
So I had to show that "the charter is not the charter!" That the staff structures of the infantry regiments of the infantry, motorized, and tank divisions were different from each other! They differed in number, quantity of certain weapons, "assortment" of weapons! Not to mention the fact that, in addition to German weapons, the Wehrmacht had quite a few "imported" samples!

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

According to the charter of 1938, the rifle platoon of the PP are armed with only com. platoon (for him, according to the regulations of the PP was worn by the bugler of the platoon) and the commanders of each of the 4 squads - a total of 5 MP38 / 40 (or captured PP) for 49 people. h.p. I would not call it

I met information about the charters, the staff structure in the internet, both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht ... Not so long ago, articles on this topic were posted on VO. And of course I knew the "famous" line that in the Wehrmacht the infantry squad "relied" on one machine gun and one submachine gun! Of course, my comment was provocative! And this was done deliberately! It was a test of the reaction of the readers of the VO ... So .... you for knowing the "charter and staff structure" of the Wehrmacht -4 ... and for recognizing the "provocation", a sense of humor, sarcasm-2!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Clumsy discharge is valid.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

Clumsy discharge is valid.

Well, what is there to argue about? Everyone evaluates the situation to the best of their mental abilities! They are what they are!

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

The main thing is that you do not overestimate yours. They are not as high as you think. All the best.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

The main thing is that you do not overestimate yours. They are not as high as you think. All the best.

Do you know the anecdote? "Well, okay! I'll shave off my beard! But where do I put my mind? Where?"

[boris epstein]

There were many subtleties with submachine guns in the Red Army. PPD proved to be difficult and expensive to manufacture. Some generals and marshals of the Red Army considered it a police weapon and hindered its introduction into the army. Before the war, they were delivered mainly to the border troops. In 1941, the PPSh-41 entered service, which was much simpler and its production cost is much lower. The reason is the widespread use of stamping. He had just started to enter the troops. Yes, by 1943 the situation was corrected. A total of 6,5 million submachine guns were produced in the USSR, in Germany, taking into account the assault gun, removed from storage and transferred to the Wehrmacht MP18 and small batches of simplified submachine guns for Volkssturm, about a million. The reason is simple, the complexity and high cost of production. The Germans tried but failed to apply stamping. But in the USSR, the PPS-43 was also produced, the automatic and self-loading rifles of Simonov and Tokarev-AVS-36, SVT-38 and SVT-40 were in service. The Germans produced self-loading rifles FG-41 and FG-42 in small batches.

[archiroll]

In fact, everything is simple. The red army turned out to be stronger and the point

[1331M]

Everything was in the first year of the war, and the staunch heroism of the Brest Fortress, and many thousands of prisoners, and air and tank rams, and the retreat to Moscow., Where the Nazis were defeated for the first time .. We survived and won.

[Free wind]

Alas, there were no Soviet troops in 41.

[Revolver]

Quote: Free Wind

Alas, there were no Soviet troops in 41.

Yes? And who stopped the Germans? Who dispelled the myth about the invincibility of the Wehrmacht near Moscow? Aliens? Or did the Germans themselves, of their own free will, decided not to fulfill the Fuehrer's prescriptions to enter the Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk line no later than autumn?

[Free wind]

Sorry, but this is RRKA.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Free Wind

Sorry, but this is RRKA.

But can't the Red Army be "Soviet troops" - the troops of the Soviet country?

[Phil77]

She began to be called that since 1946.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Phil77

She began to be called that since 1946.

It's not about ... the Soviet Union has Soviet troops, not only the Red Army, but the navy ..

[Phil77]

This is understandable, but we're talking about the official name, right?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Phil77

This is understandable, but we're talking about the official name, right?

What's wrong? The Red Army ground forces, the Navy, respectively, the waterborne component together with the armed forces - the Soviet troops.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mat-vey

Red Army ground forces, the Navy, respectively, a waterborne component together with the armed forces - Soviet troops

Waterfowl - kapets You are a master of metaphors. And then the Navy was called RKKF, actually.

[mat-vey]

The Navy of the USSR is one of the branches of the Armed Forces of the USSR.
The name was finally fixed in official documents since 1938, after the signing of the Resolution of the Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR dated December 30, 1937 "On the formation of the People's Commissariat of the USSR Navy." Until that moment, the USSR Navy had the names "Naval Forces of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army of the USSR" and "Naval Forces of the Red Army of the USSR".

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mat-vey

Until that moment, the USSR Navy had the names "Naval Forces of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army of the USSR" and "Naval Forces of the Red Army of the USSR"

Hmm, yes, although RKKF was still the official name until 1938, well, and certainly not "waterfowl" .

[mat-vey]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

well and certainly not "waterfowl"

Well, some of the Navy refuse to count as troops ... And yes, we are talking about 1941 ..

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mat-vey

Well, some of the Navy refuse to count as troops

Some did not communicate with the Marines, fortunately.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Some did not communicate with the Marines, fortunately.

How are you passing by today - even worked with one for a couple of years for five ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mat-vey

How are you passing by today - I even worked with one for a couple of years for five ..

Uh, it was not really about you, but rather about those who do not consider naval troops to be troops.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Uh, it was not really about you, but rather about those who do not consider naval troops to be troops.

Well, I don't know for all the Marines, but here it sounded not "waterfowl", but "amphibians" ..

[Severomor]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Uh, it was not really about you, but rather about those who do not consider naval troops to be troops.

But when they ask me if I was in the army? I firmly say no.

[meandr51]

In military reports, the expression "Soviet troops" was used constantly. You are confusing with the name of all the armed forces - the Soviet Army, SA. It, indeed, appeared only in the 46th.

[Phil77]

Good morning, Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army.

[icant007]

Quote: Phil77

Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army.

You are so stubborn. And I hope you can use the phrase "our troops"?
Or it is necessary to write "Soviets" or "Bolsheviks" as Western authors.
And in relation to the Wehrmacht, what is the synonym to use?

[Phil77]

Isn't the accuracy of the wording important in history?

[Phil77]

So in history, accuracy is not needed? Judging by the * minus *. Well, at least this is original.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Phil77

So in history, accuracy is not needed? Judging by the * minus *. Well, at least this is original.

Not so "original" - judging by the "cons" for the "exact wording") .. But you do not pay attention and life will improve ..

[mat-vey]

Quote: Phil77

Isn't the accuracy of the wording important in history?

I repeat:
The Navy of the USSR is one of the branches of the Armed Forces of the USSR.
The name was finally fixed in official documents since 1938, after the signing of the Resolution of the Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR dated December 30, 1937 "On the formation of the People's Commissariat of the USSR Navy." Until that moment, the USSR Navy had the names "Naval Forces of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army of the USSR" and "Naval Forces of the Red Army of the USSR".
And since 1946, the Air Force has become a separate component ...

[icant007]

Quote: Phil77

Isn't the accuracy of the wording important in history?

And what is the inaccuracy of the phrase "Soviet troops" - the troops of the Soviet Union.
Read historians, read marshals.

We are now talking about Russian troops, not the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, we are talking about the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, although this is unofficial.
We say the Russian Army and this is also an unofficial name.

[mat-vey]

Quote: icant007

And what is the inaccuracy of the phrase "Soviet troops"

but it was necessary to "Armed forces"))) ....

[Doctor]

+2
Isn't the accuracy of the wording important in history? hi

He is to blame for everything.

Georgy Stepanovich Nosar (aka Pyotr Alekseevich Khrustalev).

He thought of calling the governing body of workers' deputies with the word SOVIET.
I would call VECHE or Kurultai, we would serve in the Kurultai Red Army!

[mat-vey]

But the fleet was still called the Naval Naval ... And since 1938, the armed forces were already of two components - the Red Army and the Navy ... so formulations are important for history ..

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

Good morning, Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army.

Good) But the question for connoisseurs is, at what period in the Red Army when awards and gratitude were given was the answer "I serve the working people!", And then changed to "I serve the Soviet Union"?

[Phil77]

Since 1937.

[1331M]

Out of habit, many said for a long time afterwards, “I serve the working people,” especially those who quit before the war, like my grandfather, and then called him up.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

Since 1937.

But what about the opinion that this happened with the introduction of the new Charter of the Armed Forces. On January 1, 1943, but for a number of reasons, it actually entered into force on February 23, 1943.

[Phil77]

From the Charter of the internal service of the Red Army, Order number 260 dated 21.11.37.
* If the chief thanks the military units or individual servicemen answer: * I serve the Soviet Union *.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

From the Charter of the internal service of the Red Army, Order number 260 dated 21.11.37.

I do not argue, but many historians argue that the change in response to the commander's gratitude was first used from the 43rd year, in connection with the introduction of a new uniform, shoulder straps, etc.
To sozh. , I didn’t find any documents

[Phil77]

Probably, as comrade * 1331M * noted above, the power of habit.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

Probably, as comrade * 1331M * noted above, the power of habit.

Well, not according to the charter! There are discrepancies in movies and books.
To be honest, I am closer in spirit to "Serving the Working People".

[Phil77]

You know, to serve strictly according to the charter ... In a word, it is difficult. And once again I will refer to the opinion of * 1331M * and his respected grandfather, that the servicemen called up from the reserve probably responded in this way.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

You know, serving strictly according to the charter ... In a word, it's difficult.

And in DB conditions, it is practically impossible.
Day: - Your task, battalion commander, to support the attack of my tanks with fire and tracks.
Combat: - I see, Comrade Colonel.
Day: (aside) - Sit .... Map! Please take a closer look ... This is Sokolovka, see? the starting point is the western edge of the forest. Be at home at 4.00:276.0. line of attack - height XNUMX. The start of the attack is a red rocket. And remember, battalion commander, self-propelled guns must follow my tanks a hundred meters away.
Combat: - This is not according to the regulations, Comrade Colonel.
Day: - I also once had a chance to study the charter, Comrade Guards Lieutenant. And there, too, it is not written anywhere that we attacked a tank battalion with ten vehicles like this, head-on. And they will meet us from behind the huts, because of the 200-mm armor on the sight and will shoot us in a clean place, like rabbits. The rabbit can at least hide, but we have no such right. we must attack and by all means drive the SS men out of Sokolovka. 100 meta, battalion commander, and not an inch more. Clear?
Combat: - That's right, Comrade Colonel.
Day: - That's it.
Combat: - That's it.

[Phil77]

By the way, a great, wonderful, great movie! I watch it whenever possible, along with * Torpedo bombers *. I really love these films.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Phil77

By the way, a great, wonderful, great movie! I watch it at every opportunity, along with * Torpedo bombers *. I really love these films.

I will add to this list "They fought for the Motherland."
P.S. It would have been better if I hadn't read Viktor Kurochkin's book at all, having dispensed with the film adaptation. In the book, Maleshkina is killed by an accidental splinter from a "Vanyusha" that flew into the hatch while eating.

[aglet]

"In the book, Maleshkina is killed by an accidental splinter from a Vanyusha that flew into the hatch while eating."
if you watched a movie, then in the movie too

[Sling cutter]

Quote: aglet

In the book, Maleshkina is killed by an accidental splinter from a "Vanyusha" that flew into the hatch while eating. "
if you watched a movie, then in the movie too

You are wrong, Colleague! This is not in the film !!!

[aglet]

"This is not in the film !!!"
in this episode the death of Maleshkin is shown?

[Malyuta]

Quote: Phil77

By the way, a great, wonderful, great movie! I watch it at every opportunity, along with * Torpedo bombers *. I really love these films.

I would like to mention two more old films, "Son of the Regiment" and "Star".

[Snail N9]

Lord, yes, they have long ago sorted out the causes of the disaster of the first days of the war. And there is no need to invent anything to look for black cats in a dark room if they are not there. Indeed, the German army was mobilized, fully equipped, highly mobile, equipped with highly effective communication systems at all levels of subunits, had a proven interaction with other branches of the military and had a decisive, well-trained command staff. In addition, strange as it may seem, the German soldiers were ideologically highly motivated - they really believed in the genius of their Fuhrer, their superiority and in the fact that they were fulfilling a historical mission - to rid the European culture and peoples from the Asian, communist barbarians, who have as their goal the enslavement and communication of the whole world. That's just all of the above, the Red Army did not possess. In addition, the improperly drawn up plan of action of the troops in the event of hostilities and which was in sealed envelopes in every Soviet military unit inflicted colossal damage. Parts of the Red Army, Air Force and Navy, instead of analyzing the situation, reporting it up and taking action on the situation, rushed to stupidly carry out what was in the "secret packages". In addition, the lack of modern communications and the actions of saboteurs and the fifth column led to the fact that the leadership of the country, units and subunits often did not have any information about what was really going on, and acted-led on the basis of rumors, incorrect, outdated information. All this led to chaos mixing of units and subunits, loss of general controllability, supplies and, as a result, to the defeat of the fronts and armies in their environment, lack of fuel and ammunition, despondency of personnel and mass surrender.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Malyuta

I would like to mention two more old films, "Son of the Regiment" and "Star".

There is also the film "The Third Rocket", I recommend it.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Free Wind

Alas, there were no Soviet troops in 41.

Mdaaaa ....! It's like in a "childish" question: "There is a song about the priest, but there are no priests?" ...

[mark1]

Author! Normal article (at least the beginning), why turn it into anonymous?

[tasha]

Judging by the expressions

And the liberals, so they went even further. They spread a rumor that, they say, human rights were so violated in the USSR that people allegedly almost dreamed of running out of this unbearable social hell themselves. And supposedly that is why they were downright delighted with the beginning of the war ...

domestic military units

with its light T-26 rushed at the enemy. Yes, yes, it is there that ours attack

(11 MK contains 331 tanks, including 24 medium T-34s and 3 heavy KVs. And they attack, yes, not only there ..)

Moreover, Soviet troops are pushing the Germans out of the border.

there will be no serious research, but there will be pretentious words and cliches. We disperse ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: tasha

Judging by the expressions
They spread the rumor that, they say, human rights were so violated in the USSR that people supposedly almost dreamed of running out of this unbearable social hell on their own. And supposedly that is why they were downright delighted with the beginning of the war ...
domestic military units
with their light T-26 rushed to the enemy. Yes, yes, it is there that ours attack
(11 MK contains 331 tanks, including 24 medium T-34s and 3 heavy KVs. And they attack, yes, not only there ..)

there will be no serious research, but there will be pretentious words and cliches. We disperse ...

It is necessary to read: it is interesting how the author will explain the million Soviet citizens fighting against their country - and this has never happened before.

The facts of mass surrender of soldiers and officers in these two armies are not recorded.

Captured the armies when they swiftly found themselves в окружении-those. without the means of resistance and leadership.

Those, who managed to retreat without being surrounded-not captured, that's all a very simple explanation.

Moving on to the 11th Army.

Let's remember what happened on the first day of the war.

11 mechanized corps

Yes, this 11th Army is also retreating under the onslaught of superior enemy forces. ,

The author is not even aware that the 11th mechanized corps was NOT part of the 11th army of the NWF, but was part of 3 armies of the ZF and Grodno was NOT part of the NWF defense zone.

Now about the "successful actions of the 11th Army:

German units advancing on Kaunas have already by the evening of June 22, 1941 were 60 kilometers south of the city and did not stop moving.

All disorganized remnants of the army retreated to Kaunas, Vilnius, partly to adjacent regions of Belarus.

On June 24, 1941, German units took Vilnius and Kaunas, and after that there is no need to talk about any organized actions of the army at all... The army was discovered only on June 30, 1941.



At that time, the army lost up to 75% of military equipment and about 60% of the personnel

.
it’s over, we can say that there were no prisoners in these 60%, but given the rapid rate of expulsion, this is not the case: the army of the North advancing at the fastest speed of any army group, who launched the offensive, three days later went beyond the Western Dvina and were ready to continue the offensive further

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Captured the armies when they quickly found themselves surrounded, that is. without means of resistance and leadership.

Those who managed to retreat without being surrounded, did not get captured, that's all a very simple explanation.

It was different. And they left the encirclement in what is called a full battle. The front-line soldier said: “We got out of the encirclement with weapons and carried the wounded, while others went to surrender. What kind of people! the latter fought until everyone was killed, while others surrendered after the first shot: "Hitler kaput!" Although they had enough weapons and a reliable position - they could have resisted. But no, they surrendered. "

Quote: Olgovich

a million Soviet citizens fighting against their country - and this has never happened before.

In 1941-45 this also did not happen. On the other hand, such massive cooperation with the enemy, as in WW2, has never been seen anywhere in Europe. And in Germany too.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

On the other hand, such massive cooperation with the enemy, as in WW2, had never happened anywhere in Europe. And in Germany too.

And at least Wrangel and his comrades are not an example of cooperation, and in fact the whole white movement?

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: mat-vey

And, in fact, is it all a white movement?

Well, if you recall cooperation with the German General Staff, then other comrades are the first to come to mind, not Wrangel at all. Not?
On the other hand, your interlocutor, of course, waved too much. The war against the Russian government is quite in the national tradition. And, frankly, there were reasons for this.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Well, if you recall cooperation with the German General Staff, then other comrades are the first to come to mind, not Wrangel at all

You mean it: the Peace of Brest (Ukrainian. Beresteysk peace, German. Brotfrieden - "grain peace") - a separate peace treaty signed on January 27 (February 9) 1918 between the Ukrainian People's Republic and the Central Powers in Brest-Litovsk. ...
Although, you are likely to be procrastinating on Sisson's fakes once again ..

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: mat-vey

separate peace treaty signed on January 27 (February 9) 1918 between the Ukrainian People's Republic and the Central Powers in Brest-Litovsk

)))
I always thought that the UPR was a rather pathetic undertaking. And it turns out, how powerful the people were, and the future enemy of the people, Sokolnikov, was sent in, and the 7th Congress of the RSDLP (b) was held.

By the way, the enemy of the UPR was Russia, either white or red, so there can be no questions about peace with Germany.

Quote: mat-vey

Sisson fakes

)))
What cannot be taken away from the Bolsheviks - they are very good at realpolitik and situational unions.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Cherry Nine

the enemy of the UPR was Russia

But what is characteristic of the inhabitants of this very Republic of Ingushetia consisted of .. And collaborated with the Germans ..

Quote: Cherry Nine

the enemy of the UPR was Russia

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: mat-vey

of the inhabitants of this very RI consisted

Former RI.

Quote: mat-vey

And she collaborated with the monsters ..

And with whom, excuse me, to cooperate? Not with Denikin. The Germans were the only relatively normal people there.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Former RI.

In general, cooperation is not just massive, but very massive.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Yes, and they too.

[aglet]

"In 1941-45, this was not the case either."
and you count everyone, and the roa, and the Caucasian legions, and the Cossacks with the Kalmyks, and in general everyone. if they did not fight against the red army specifically, it means that they replaced the Germans in secondary sectors

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I talked about all of them. If we count with all sorts of "substitute" types of "hivi", the number will be higher, but the Germans had "hivi" from the Russian prisoners even in 1 MV. Although they were not called.

[Alien From]

The Living and the Dead. K. Simonov

[Unknown]

Why the Second World War did not go as planned from the very beginning, will be of interest to the public for a long time. In my memory, there were so many explanations, conclusions, versions and fictions, you don't know how to figure it out. From a purely military point of view, it is more or less clear. Isaev published his books about boilers in 1941 based on the documents of that time in the archives of M.O. as well as German documents. Other, so-called "liberal historians" such as Suvorov-Rezun, Solonin do not even need to be taken into account. And all the same, questions arise: Was there really a betrayal of the generals? There is no exact answer. On the one hand, it is impossible to believe that the commanders whom the Soviet government raised, educated, gave respect and honor, turned out to be selfish and traitors. But the facts, from them nowhere, Vlasov, Trukhin, Zakutny and others were. The role of Pavlov and other commanders of the Western Front is not known. Some of the interrogation protocols are still classified. What was the level of divisions, brigade regiments? What kind of management was there? I came across such a 41-year-old photo from the Leningrad direction ...

Our soldiers are standing, preparing to be taken prisoner, Finnish, even with their own weapons, not one commander is visible. Here's more ... Question: Tell us when, where and under what circumstances were you captured by the Germans?

Answer: I was mobilized into the Soviet Army by the Bardym RVK on June 29, 1941 and was sent to a military unit in the town of Molotov, I don’t remember the unit number. On July 11, our unit was sent to the front in the Kalinin region. near Velikiye Luki. On July 16, 1941, our unit entered the battle, and on July 18, 1941, our unit was surrounded. There were German tanks all around, and we laid down our arms without resisting. At the time of my capture I had a rifle and 15 pieces. cartridges, after the capture, the Germans disarmed us and sent us to the rear.

Question: So you voluntarily went over to the enemy's side, having a rifle and cartridges with you, and surrendered to the enemy without any resistance?

( Collapse )



Answer: No, I did not voluntarily go over to the Germans. I was forced, because there was a command from the authorities of our unit not to resist. In addition, there were German tanks around and constantly bombing planes, it was not even possible to raise your head. And the command said that resistance was pointless, and we all surrendered to the Germans .......... That's how the commanders ?! Of course, it is up to everyone to believe or not to believe the passage of the interrogation, but such facts are not isolated. They threw the units entrusted to them, and scattered themselves, in all directions, tearing off the signs, distinguishing, but not leaving their women .......

Vlasov also preferred to go out and hide surrounded by his mistresses. Such officers were also. Maybe they are the reasons for failures of 41 years old?

[Korsar4]

Panic is dangerous.
But then there were major failures. Kharkov, for example.

And who will tell about Pavlov impartially and fully now?

[New Year day]

Quote from Korsar4

And who will tell about Pavlov impartially and fully now?

probably nobody

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Silvestr

Quote from Korsar4

And who will tell about Pavlov impartially and fully now?

probably nobody

Open archives, unless they were cleaned up, of course.

[Constanty]

Other, so-called "liberal historians," like ... Corned beef does not even need to be taken into account

Interesting approach. That is, we take into account only those who correspond to the stated thesis.
This is a new kind of historical research.
While Rezun's books are indeed full of errors and distortions and are easy to criticize, Solonin is worse - he often cites facts, citing documents, citing sources. It is hard to deny that his conclusions are unpleasant to many and refute beautiful myths. The truth is often difficult and beautiful.

And a photo of soldiers without officers in the Leningrad direction? It is unknown why they are not there. Many opportunities - the Germans separated them from the rank and file, they fled, committed suicide.

And a photo of soldiers without officers in the Leningrad direction? It is unknown why they are not there. There are many opportunities - the Germans separated them from the rank and file, they fled, committed suicide or even in horror (because, unfortunately, there were such cases), were killed by their own soldiers. Unknown

[Snail N9]

For some reason, everyone here believes that the armed forces of the Soviet Union at that time were highly motivated, ideologically stable and therefore wonder how such soldiers and commanders fled and surrendered. Like, it could be the result of betrayal and not otherwise! However, for some reason, the following is not taken into account. The Soviet Union at that time was indeed a huge concentration camp. Millions of slaves worked in the GULAG, the peasants were identified as a "hostile class", the "intelligentsia" was defined as "fellow travelers" and so on. It is only in Soviet films of that era and in books that they show a happy people, their joyful unity around the party and government for the sake of building a new society. In fact, everything was different. The village remembered collectivization and surplus appropriation and dispossession before that, in addition, the collective farmers were crushed by exorbitant plans to grow and collect products for state supplies - they worked day and night, taking everything to the state bins, while they themselves remained in poverty. What motivation could they have to fight for such power? The working class was worn out by the fact that instead of an 8-hour working day, the abolition of fines, the provision of vacations, etc. for which they actually fought, they were assigned a 10-hour working day with one day off a week, fines remained, no vacations were given, etc. imposed "Stakhanovism" and criminal prosecution for non-fulfillment of the plan, for damage to state property, for lack of faith in the future of communism, and so on, raged in all workplaces. The same applies to the intelligentsia, which was mowed down during various "efforts to overcome" harmful "trends," "wrong theories," "lack of ideological substantiation and purposefulness," and other rubbish. But all these people were in the ranks of the Red Army, Air Force and Navy. What motivation can they have to defend a regime in which you live not only in poverty, but also in constant fear. As for the commanders of the Red Army, here, too, all the same factors played a role. Many commanders, even in 1941, were under constant fear of being repressed because of "empty" slander or because of minor ones because of mistakes, omissions, etc., which led to their inactivity, familiarity with subordinates, drunkenness and so on. And yes, they really perceived the German attack as a chance to destroy this system of universal fear and the threat of being destroyed in the dungeons of various types of "Lubyanka" or in the concentration camps of the GULAG. Therefore, it is not surprising that such commanders were not eager to staunchly defend Soviet power and willingly surrendered and surrendered their subordinates and their units.

[Unknown]

Quote: Constanty

Interesting approach. That is, we take into account only those who correspond to the stated thesis.
This is a new kind of historical research.
While Rezun's books are indeed full of errors and distortions and are easy to criticize, Solonin is worse - he often cites facts, citing documents, citing sources. It is hard to deny that his conclusions are unpleasant to many and refute beautiful myths. The truth is often difficult and beautiful.

I do not take into account the stated theses at all. These "liberal historians" write in the same style. If one officer who served in S.A. is talking nonsense about highway tanks and other types of equipment, the question is, where did he even serve? That Solonin, who did not serve for a day, but talks about the Wehrmacht artillery tractors
SdKfz

..and tractors of the Red Army

putting an equal sign between a tractor moving at the speed of a pedestrian and a special artillery tractor developing a speed of up to 40 kph along the highway, then where he climbs with such reasoning. Comparison of army special all-wheel drive trucks

with our rear-wheel drive GAZ and ZIS

and talking about the equal mobility of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht mechanics, makes him an idiot, or a deliberate disinformer. They pull out individual quotes from the facts, and put them in a color that suits them.

Quote: Constanty

And a photo of soldiers without officers in the Leningrad direction? It is unknown why they are not there. There are many opportunities - the Germans separated them from the rank and file, they fled, committed suicide or even in horror (because, unfortunately, there were such cases), were killed by their own soldiers. Unknown

One thing I can say for sure - the Finns could not separate the officers and leave their weapons, hence the conclusion, the commanders were not there. The commander should not abandon the part he is commanding, under no circumstances. It is not worth the price of that officer, who abandoned his soldiers to the mercy of fate, according to the laws of wartime for this execution, in all armies of the world, without exception. In a unit where there is discipline and officers have authority, they are not fired at.

[Constanty]

"Suvorov" is actually a technical dilettante who writes nonsense about weapons.
However, some of his theses make one think that the districts were transformed into fronts even before the start of the war.
As far as I remember, Solonin did not compare the quality and performance characteristics of artillery tractors, but gave their number in divisions, etc. In the same way, as often in statements, for example, the state and weapons of rifle divisions of different countries are given - quantitatively, without comparing the characteristics of a particular equipment.
In addition, both Germany and the USSR did not have a single machine park - next to SdKfz.6, 7, 8, the German army had a whole bunch of various artillery tractors, and in the Red Army not only STZ-5 (
developing at the same time not 6 km / h, but 21,5 km / h). The Komsomolets were also armed with T-26Ts, the Germans also had Krupp-Proce, as well as the captured Mittlerer Raupenshlepper T III / 3 (t). Leichter Zugkraftwagen 37, C7P and tractors. In addition, the Germans praised Stalin or the STZ tractor very much.


It's the same with trucks. Not all of them, or the vast majority of German trucks, did not have four-wheel drive. Former RWD Opel Blitz for example

[strannik1985]

As far as I remember, Solonin did not compare the number and performance characteristics of artillery tractors

And in vain, the target groups are different, for the Germans, the regular Sd.kfz were intended for mobile formations (remember, by June 22, not counting the reserve, the Germans had 17 TD and 13 MD as part of 10 AK (mot)). Soviet tractors, for the most part, were intended for the infantry, so they had a speed on the march with a front end and a gun in the range of 10-15 km / h. Serial tractors were suitable for mobile units: light T-20 "Komsomolets" or heavy "Comintern" and "Voroshilovets", there was simply no medium serial high-speed artillery tractor.

[Unknown]

Quote: Constanty

In addition, both Germany and the USSR did not have a single machine park - next to SdKfz.6, 7, 8, the German army had a whole bunch of various artillery tractors, and in the Red Army not only STZ-5 (
developing at the same time not 6 km / h, but 21,5 km / h). The Komsomolets were also armed with T-26Ts, the Germans also had Krupp-Proce, as well as the captured Mittlerer Raupenshlepper T III / 3 (t). Leichter Zugkraftwagen 37, C7P and tractors. In addition, the Germans praised Stalin or the STZ tractor very much.

On the march at maximum speed, they do not move, not one engine, those years at STZ would not have withstood such a load.
In 1937, the first 173 transport STZ-5s were produced, in 1938 - 136, in 1939 -
m - already 1256 and in 1940 - 1274. In artillery units, they towed
artillery systems weighing up to 3400 kg, including 76-mm regimental and
divisional guns, 122-mm and 152-mm howitzers, as well as 76-mm (later 85-mm)
anti-aircraft guns. Soon in the Red Army STZ-5 became the most common and
affordable artillery tractor Average technical speed of the tractor
with a trailer on the highway as part of the battery reached 14 km / h; as part of the regiment - 11 km / h;
on the ground - 10 km / h, while he needed such an exotic type of fuel as naphtha. A Stalinets-60 "(S-60) general-purpose tractor worked on it. Yes, there was Voroshilovets. All of them
was released by the end of August 1941, before the evacuation of the plant to Nizhny Tagil,
1123 pieces and he also served as a tank evacuator, only he could tow the KV and the T-34. .Take the Wehrmacht. In total, about two and a half thousand Sd.Kfz were produced during the war. 9, Sd.Kfz. 10 released 2624, Sd.Kfz. 6/1 A total of 3660 units were produced, I will not list further, there are still a lot of trophies. The Wehrmacht's mobile formations had the entire fleet of artillery systems from 75 mm to 280 mm on mechanical traction, which moved at the same speed as tanks, armored personnel carriers, and provided them with powerful fire support. The result in this photo, not to get away from the Germans, not to really change the position, the Germans caught up on the march, I had to quit ...

Quote: Constanty

It's the same with trucks. Not all of them, the vast majority of German trucks did not have all-wheel drive. Former RWD Opel Blitz for example

Not all, I agree, the point is that they were not at all in the Red Army. This is not the fault of the Soviet government, in such a short period of time, it did a lot and even more, but they were able to make a four-wheel drive truck only after the war. Even the Germans could not fully equip the Wehrmacht with all-wheel drive vehicles, but they also made the blitz with all-wheel drive.

[aglet]

"on the ground - 10 km / h, while he needed such exotic type of fuel, like naphtha "
it is now exotic. and then it was ordinary tractor fuel. and the engines on the tractors were carbureted, with the exception of the rare S-65

[Unknown]

Quote: aglet

it is now exotic. and then it was ordinary tractor fuel. and the engines on the tractors were carbureted, with the exception of the rare S-65

Even then, naphtha was not held in high esteem, it is highly toxic. The 1MA engine is a typical tractor, four-cylinder, carburetor (the diesel engine had to be abandoned), with magneto ignition, low-speed and relatively heavy, but hardy and reliable (produced until 1953). It started up and could run on gasoline (tank - 14 liters), then switching (after warming up to 90 °) to kerosene or naphtha (tank - 148 liters), that is, it was actually multi-fuel. To prevent detonation and to increase power, especially when working on kerosene with a heavy load in the hot season, water was injected into the cylinders through a special carburetor system until an anti-knock combustion chamber was introduced in 1941.

[aglet]

"These were the engines back then."
I know this very well, but the main type of fuel for them is naphtha, kerosene was more expensive, and gasoline was even more expensive. were run on gasoline, and worked on naphtha. naphtha, in terms of toxicity, does not differ from kerosene, it only evaporates worse, and therefore required a warmed-up engine for operation. and this engine was not multi-fuel

[Unknown]

All sources on STZ-5 indicate that the 1MA was multi-fuel.

[aglet]

"All sources for STZ-5 indicate that the 1MA was multi-fuel"
are these probably modern sources? a multi-fuel engine is a diesel engine that can run on any fuel, from aviation kerosene to vegetable oil. that's why they are used mainly for military equipment, and almost any carburetor engine can work on naphtha and kerosene, under certain conditions

[Unknown]

Quote: aglet

are these probably modern sources? a multi-fuel engine is a diesel engine that can run on any fuel, from aviation kerosene to vegetable oil. that's why they are used mainly for military equipment, and almost any carburetor engine can work on naphtha and kerosene, under certain conditions

Are there other sources? Any carburetor engine will not work on naphtha and kerosene, with the exception of the six on the ZIL-157, but 66 gasoline was poured into it.

[aglet]

"Any carburetor engine will not work on naphtha and kerosene"
There was no naphtha, kerosene, in that quantity, too, but the Zilovskaya six, and the Gazovskaya, ZMZ21 and M408 worked on the solarium. however, there was smoke, and the detonation and the load were not taken well, but they worked. and if you also make a separate start, and warm the intake manifold, inject water, and limit the speed, as on a tractor, maybe they would work as it should

[aglet]

“This is a new kind of historical research.
While Rezun's books are indeed full of errors and distortions and are easy to criticize, "
Rezun's books have very few historical errors and distortions. it's just completely different from their (facts), they evaluate

[aglet]

"Vlasov also preferred to go out and hide surrounded by his mistresses"
I do not want to justify Vlasov, but do you know something about the 2nd Shock Army?

[Unknown]

Quote: aglet

I don't want to justify Vlasov, but you know something about the 2nd shock army

Let's start with this Page Background55 # 1.14. Protocol of interrogation of A. A. Vlasov January 26, 1946 * PROTOCOL OF INTERROGATION of arrested Andrey Andreyevich VLASOV Interrogation began at 11 QUESTION: Maria Ignatievna VORONOV - former the chief cook of the Military Council of the 30nd Shock Army - do you remember? ANSWER: I remember ** VORONOVA was with me ** July 2, 13, when I was voluntarily taken prisoner by the Germans. The next day, July 1942, during interrogation at the station ... Siverskaya at the headquarters of the German army group "North" I asked the colonel of the German General Staff who interrogated me that VORONOVA, as a civilian who happened to be with me, was released, giving her the opportunity to go to Belarus to the place of her birth. The Germans did not satisfy and sent VORONOVA to the prisoner of war camp. In June 14, as far as I know, VORONOVA appeared in the ROA propaganda group operating in Riga, and, explaining that she knew me well, asked to take me to Berlin. to Dammdorf Kibitzweg No. 1944. * II I do not remember which of the people close to me brought VORONOVA to me, in any case, in June 9 I had a meeting with her, she complained about the difficulties that she had to endure in the occupied territory, and * asked me to keep her with me * III. By my order, VORONOVA was left in Berlin and worked as a cook in my kitchen. I don’t know where VORONOVA is now. QUESTION IV: As many as two volumes of the protocols of the interrogation of Vlasov and other persons who were with him. Here's another ... FROM THE READINGS OF M.I. Voronova
21 September 1945 years

Voronova Maria Ignatievna, born in 1909, arrived from Berlin and settled in the city of Baranovichi.

QUESTION. Tell me, do you know the former Lieutenant General of the Red Army Vlasov?

ANSWER. Yes, Andrei Andreevich Vlasov, a former lieutenant general of the Red Army, I know from 1942 to the 20th, and then from the 2nd Shock Army.

QUESTION. Under what circumstances did you meet Vlasov and what do you know about his capture by German troops?

ANSWER. In 1942, around February, I joined the 20th Army as a civilian. She served in the military trade system as a chef of the 20th Army, commanded by Lieutenant General Andrey Andreyevich Vlasov.

In the field, approximately after Novo-Petrovsk, I was transferred to work in the canteen of the military council of the 20th Army and then I personally met Vlasov.

In early March 1942, Vlasov was summoned to Moscow, where he took, in addition to his direct subordinates, me as a cook. From Moscow, in view of the appointment of Vlasov to the Volkhov front, he left there, I went with him, and later he was appointed deputy commander of the 2nd Shock Army.

While in the 2nd Shock Army at the headquarters as a chef, I, along with the army headquarters, found myself surrounded, where Vlasov also found himself.

Being surrounded, Vlasov, among 30-40 staff workers, tried to unite with units of the Red Army, but nothing worked. Wandering through the forest, we connected with the leadership of one division, the commander of which was Cherny, and there were already about 200 of us.

Around June 1942, near Novgorod, the Germans found us in the forest and imposed a battle, after which Vlasov, myself, the soldier Kotov and the driver Pogibko escaped into the swamp, crossed it and went to the villages.

Deadly with the wounded soldier Kotov we went to one village, and Vlasov and I went to another.

When we entered the village, I do not know its name, we went into one house, where we were mistaken for partisans, the local "self-defense" surrounded the house, and we were arrested. We were put in a collective farm barn, and the next day the Germans arrived, showed Vlasov a portrait cut out of the newspaper in his general's uniform, and Vlasov was forced to admit that he was indeed Lieutenant General Vlasov. Prior to that, he was recommended as a refugee teacher.

The Germans, making sure that they had caught Lieutenant General Vlasov, put us in a car and brought us to the Siverskaya station, to the German headquarters. Here I was put in a prisoner of war camp located in the town of Malaya Vyra, and Vlasov was taken to Germany two days later ...

The minutes from my words have been written down correctly and I have read them.

Voronova.

Interrogated: Major Vinokurov, head of the 10th department of the 2nd department of the UNKGB of the Baranovichi region.

General Vlasov.

I know enough about the 2-shock, but about the traitor, what to say about him, they hung the road there.

[New Year day]

Betrayal 1941:

I would like to understand what the author understands by these his own words? Whose betrayal, who was betrayed? It somehow sounds loud, but even in the given subjective examples it is impossible to understand this.

Some of the experts are spreading the version that Stalin is to blame, of course... And that his purges of commanders may have beheaded the army on the eve of the war.

Was there really no repression of the officers of the Red Army before the war? They were and it is a proven fact. How many were convicted and shot is still unknown. Suffice it to recall a few names: Rokossovsky, Meretskov.
Did such large-scale personnel changes affect the combat capabilities of the Red Army? - Undoubtedly.
Marshal of the Soviet Union A.I. Eremenko:
"Comrade Stalin was significantly guilty of the extermination of military personnel before the war, which affected the army's combat capability."

And the liberals, so they went even further. They spread a rumor that, they say, human rights were so violated in the USSR that lPeople allegedly dreamed of escaping from this unbearable social hell themselves. And supposedly that is why they were downright delighted with the beginning of the war ...

Let's approach this issue from the other side. Undoubtedly, there was such a thing. As an example, we will cite the following figures: in 41, 20 thousand people of the same nationality were drafted into the Red Army (I will not name it politically correct) and they all deserted - a memo of the deputy. People's Commissar of State Security of the USSR B.Z. Kobulov and deputy. People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR I.A. Serov addressed to L.P. Beria on April 22, 1944.
And another evidence - from the documents of the 48th Cavalry Division, which covered the withdrawal from Perekop of the main units of the 51st and Primorsky armies: “.. traitors from the village. Kazanly brought the machine gunners to our rear and a situation was created in which the 68th Cavalry Regiment, covering the Uskut-Karasubazar road, was completely cut off from us. "
And one more thing: the head of the medical service of the Crimean headquarters of the partisan movement, Lieutenant Colonel P. Mikhailenko, wrote that the partisans would not have died of hunger if it were not for “the treason of the Crimean Tatars (plundering food bases, etc.).
And this does not at all denigrate those who fought on the side of the Red Army.

Delirium, but someone believes ...

So these are nonsense or not? Using the definition used by the author, not nonsense.
There was everything!

Facts mass surrender of soldiers and officers .... not recorded.

And what does "mass" mean? - Is it a platoon or a regiment? The definition is subjective.

Is it a lot or a little? And what does this image reflect? He's real.
I believe that there was everything: mass heroism and surrender (for various reasons), and confusion and many other unpleasant things. You shouldn't be so categorical in your assessment of those years.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Silvestr

Suffice it to recall a few names: Rokossovsky, Meretskov.

There is a legend that when Rokossovsky was released from prison and brought to the Kremlin, Stalin asked: "What, comrade Rokossovsky, did you decide to sit out?"

[New Year day]

Quote: Stroporez

Stalin asked: "What, Comrade Rokossovsky, have you decided to sit out?"

This "humor" is so ... it was

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Silvestr

This "humor" is so ... it was

Interesting jokes

[aglet]

"This is" humor "so ... it was"
and even a legend

[Sugar Honeyovich]

The same fake as Rokossovsky's army is full of u'rok ...

[kalibr]

I thought there would be at least some links to documents from those years. And the article again contains only reflections. It looks cheap. But let's read this:

Here are links, as you can see. And then there is data on how many people and equipment were lost at the same time ...

[Unknown]

Quote: Silvestr

Was there really no repression of the officers of the Red Army before the war? They were and it is a proven fact. How many were convicted and shot is still unknown. Suffice it to recall a few names: Rokossovsky, Meretskov.
Did such large-scale personnel changes affect the combat capabilities of the Red Army? - Undoubtedly

There were always an abundance of officers in the Red Army. In comparison with other armies, our army was the richest command staff. For example, if in 1939 there were 1 privates per 6 officer of the Red Army, then in the Wehrmacht - 29, in the English army - 15, in the French - 22, Japanese - 19. The quality of the officer corps, this is the main thing. , which had grown instead of the cut off old one, was not enough, but it is still unclear what the result was if the old head was still on the shoulders. The mistakes and failures committed by its representatives who remained in power (Budyonny, Voroshilov) indirectly indicate that, if Tukhachevsky and Blucher were in charge of the Red Army in 1941, our losses could have been greater. The documents on the exercises of 1936, recently introduced into scientific circulation, are finally convincing of this: 5) “But even greater losses in a real battle with the Germans would have been suffered by the infantry of Yakir and Uborevich. Firstly, everywhere she went to attack the machine guns of the "enemy" not with rare chains, but in dense "crowds from squads ... As for the infantry of Uborevich, she did not know how to conduct offensive close combat at all. So the high command of the Red Army was something else. Yes, the so-called repression of the command staff did not play a special role.

Quote: Silvestr

in the 41st, 20 thousand people of the same nationality were drafted into the Red Army (I will be politically correct, I will not name it) and they all deserted, a memo of the deputy. People's Commissar of State Security of the USSR B.Z. Kobulov and deputy. People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR I.A. Serov addressed to L.P. Beria on April 22, 1944.

As for the nationalities, there is an interesting interrogation of the Germans, how they assessed them, I will bring them later.

[SVD68]

Quote: Unknown

For example, if in 1939 for the 1st officer of the Red Army there were 6 privates

It is known that from 1939 to 1941 the Red Army was increased several times. So for 1939, this is not an indicative figure at all.

[Unknown]

Are you saying that in 41 there were many more soldiers per officer? Maybe one in ten, twelve? Serving in 82-84, he was surprised at the number of officers in S.A. For example, a platoon commander, but a platoon could well have been in command of a castle. For example, in the Wehrmacht, platoons were commanded by sergeant-major. Why so many officers are needed. This is a separate topic.

[aglet]

"Are you saying that in 41 there were many more soldiers per officer?"
in the infantry - platoon commander - lieutenant, in the platoon - 30 people, this is in the infantry. in artillery and tank forces, the numbers are slightly different, but not much

[Unknown]

Quote: aglet

in the infantry - platoon commander - lieutenant, in the platoon - 30 people, this is in the infantry. in artillery and tank forces, the numbers are slightly different, but not much

We have always had and will have officers in abundance. The country does not always fight, and in peacetime it is much better to be an officer than a civilian specialist, all types of allowances at public expense. For example, the number of officers in divisions. Officers Soldiers Total
German infantry division
Management 31 142 173
Three infantry regiments 276 8,904 9,180
Artillery regiment 124 3,048 3,172
Reconnaissance Battalion 21 602 623
Anti-tank battalion 25 683 708
Engineer Battalion 24 755 769
Signal Battalion 18
Rear of the division 99 1,648 1,747
Total: 618
Soviet rifle division
Management 109 48 157
Three rifle regiments 564 8,982 9,546
Division artillery 265 2,124 2,389
Reconnaissance Battalion 32 241 273
Anti-tank division 27 203 230
Anti-aircraft division 30
Engineer Battalion 36 485 521
Signal Battalion 28
Rear of the division 105 697 802
Total: 1,196
It can be seen that to perform the same combat mission, the Germans tend to allocate more soldiers, but fewer officers. But the difference is especially noticeable in the organization of division control. For the Germans, the chief of staff was at the same time the deputy commander, and the divisions in the headquarters had no more than 5 officers, more often 2-3. In the Soviet rifle division, only the headquarters had 70 officer posts. in addition, there were separate posts of deputy commander and deputy commander for political affairs. The rifle company, both for us and for the Germans, consisted of three rifle platoons. In addition to riflemen, our company had a machine-gun platoon: two "maxims", and eleven soldiers under the command of a lieutenant. The Germans in a similar structure had 16 people for two heavy machine guns, but their conscience did not allow them to call a group of 16 people a platoon - they called it a half-platoon, and put a non-commissioned officer in charge. In addition to combat platoons, the company included control. In our country, it consisted of a commander, a political officer, a foreman, a driver, a clerk, a messenger and two snipers. A total of eight people: a captain, a political instructor and six soldiers. The Germans had 12 people in command of the company: a captain, a non-commissioned officer, five messengers, four cyclists and a rider.
In total, the Soviet rifle company had: 172 soldiers, a captain, a political instructor, four lieutenants, 12 "tar", 2 "maxim", 3 company mortars and 130 rifles and machine guns.

In German: 184 soldiers, three lieutenants, a captain, 11 machine guns (2 on machine tools), 3 mortars and 144 carbines (according to the state of February 1941, there were also machine guns,

[aglet]

"Germans tend to allocate more soldiers, but fewer officers"
their non-commissioned officers and sergeants in a combat situation actually commanded, including platoons, our sergeants, in general, transmitted orders of officers

[Sergey Valov]

“The quality of the officer corps is what matters” - not just the officer corps. In general, the quality of personnel - from private to marshal. How the top commanders of the Red Army, destroyed by Stalin, would have shown themselves in the Second World War, now it will not be possible to find out, but at least they had many years of experience in commanding large groupings of troops. But when a 26-year-old squadron commander becomes deputy people's commissar by the age of 30, no good can be expected from this. And the appointment of Zhukov as chief of the general staff? People have been trained for such positions for decades, and it is at staff work. Now it is very fashionable to scold Pavlov for the defeat of his dandy, but for some reason it is forgotten that he actually commanded only a regiment, a short brigade in Spain, and only a month in a reserve, not at war, group in the Finnish. And suddenly they immediately put him on the district. He had no experience in commanding such large groups, hence the results. Likewise, with the rank and file - yesterday's peasant who had never seen and even heard of a bicycle suddenly becomes a tanker or an artilleryman. And how many years must it take for him to master his military specialty? And after that, is it any wonder that the T-34 was sometimes fueled with gasoline? And the courses for junior lieutenants, whom did they graduate? I am writing all this about professional training, without belittling the personal heroism of soldiers and officers.

[UA3QHP]

Quote: Sergey Valov

and even hearing about a bicycle suddenly becomes a tanker or an artilleryman. And how many years must it take for him to master his military specialty?

Three months, or did you not serve in the army?
A radio operator from 0 to 10 groups for receiving the alphabet prepares for THREE months.

[Constanty]

This is how Rezun is being criticized now. In the end, he wrote a book about it with the significant title "Purification".

[SVD68]

Quote: Silvestr

As an example, we will cite the following figures: in 41, 20 thousand people of the same nationality were drafted into the Red Army (I will be politically correct, I will not name it) and they all deserted

Do not confuse surrender and desertion. They have different reasons.

[Unknown]

Quote: Silvestr

other evidence is from the documents of the 48th Cavalry Division, which covered the withdrawal from Perekop of the main units of the 51st and Primorsky armies: “.. traitors from the village. Kazanly brought the machine gunners to our rear and a situation was created in which the 68th Cavalry Regiment, covering the Uskut-Karasubazar road, was completely cut off from us. "
And one more thing: the head of the medical service of the Crimean headquarters of the partisan movement, Lieutenant Colonel P. Mikhailenko, wrote that the partisans would not have died of hunger if it were not for “the treason of the Crimean Tatars (plundering food bases, etc.).
And this does not at all denigrate those who fought on the side of the Red Army.

Of course it does not denigrate, but taking the oath, they take obligations in relation to the country in which they live, and are citizens of that country. Here is an excerpt from the interrogation. even though he refers to the Chechens. but it seems to me he will approach the Crimean Tatars ... During the interrogation, the same Osman Guba made an eloquent confession:

“Among the Chechens and Ingush, I easily found the right people, ready to betray, go over to the side of the Germans and serve them.

I was surprised: what are these people unhappy with? Under the Soviet regime, Chechens and Ingush lived prosperously, in abundance, much better than in pre-revolutionary times, which I personally became convinced of after more than 4 months in the territory of Chechen-Ingushetia.

The Chechens and Ingush, I repeat, do not need anything, which was striking to me, recalling the difficult conditions and constant deprivation in which the mountain emigration in Turkey and Germany found itself. I could not find any other explanation, except that these people from the Chechens and Ingush, the treasonous moods in relation to their homeland, were guided by selfish considerations, the desire under the Germans to preserve at least the remnants of their well-being, to provide a service in compensation for which the invaders would have left them at least a part of what they had. livestock and food, land and dwellings. "These are the pies.

[aglet]

"But were there no repressions of the officers of the Red Army before the war? They were and this is a proven fact"
read carefully who, how much, and for what, was dismissed from the Red Army before the war, in 4, it seems, years

[parusnik]

- Who writes?
- Anonymous! ..
- God gave a surname ... (c)
Much is true. In some areas the enemy did not cross the border at all.

[kalibr]

“And the liberals, so they went even further. They spread a rumor that, they say, human rights were so violated in the USSR that people allegedly almost dreamed of running out of this intolerable social hell then. ... "
Before writing this and playing with objectivity, one should read this collection of documents. About how they waited, how they wanted to avenge the "dispossession" and the collective farms ... And in general - how many were dissatisfied. No comments 830 pages of small text! You need to know. Write later!

[Sling cutter]

Quote: kalibr

About how they waited, how they wanted to avenge the "dispossession" and the collective farms ... And in general - how many were dissatisfied.

Well here again ..... As Comrade said. Lenin: "the peasantry is a petty-bourgeois class," and then Comrade. Stalin: "... as we move forward, the resistance of the capitalist elements will increase, the class struggle will intensify."
After all, it is clear that in the period of the revolutionary class struggle, the victorious class dictates its will to the defeated class.
And you, as usual, "offer to babysit the kulaks and their kulak gangs.
The revolution has a beginning and the revolution has no end!
I have always called the counter-revolution of 85-91-93, a kulak coup.

[kalibr]

Quote: Stroporez

And you, as usual, "offer to babysit the kulaks and their kulak gangs.
The revolution has a beginning and the revolution has no end!

And where do I suggest it? But whoever throws a stone upwards should not be surprised that it falls on his head. Sons often take revenge for their fathers. You will better understand why the Brest Fortress is a hero, but the city of Brest is not. What is the reason? And again ... before you write - read the documents. I read this collection. You are not. So what is the argument about?

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

why the Brest Fortress is a hero, but the city of Brest is not. What is the reason?

Maybe because there were soldiers of the Red Army in the Brest Fortress, the composition of which was mainly not from Western Belarusians, but in the city of Brest - civilians who lived only 2 years as part of the USSR? By the way, Minsk is a hero city and we must not forget that every fourth Belarusian died in that war ...

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Boris55

Maybe because there were soldiers of the Red Army in the Brest Fortress, the composition of which was mainly not from Western Belarusians, but in the city of Brest - civilians who lived only 2 years as part of the USSR? By the way, Minsk is a hero city and we must not forget that every fourth Belarusian died in that war ...

Boris! This is the rare case when I agree with you! This FIVE !!! and plus sign +

[kalibr]

Quote: Boris55

in Brest - civilians

... they greeted the Germans with bread and salt and flowers. Two years, yes ... but also 10 years since your cow was taken away from you and forced to "share" with the collective farm bassot under the threat of dispossession are not forgotten.

[aglet]

"... the Germans were greeted with bread and salt and flowers."
it was mainly in Ukraine

[Sergej1972]

More precisely, every fourth inhabitant of the Byelorussian SSR died. Many Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and Poles also lived in the republic.

[aglet]

"You'd better understand why the Brest Fortress is a hero, but the city of Brest is not. What is the reason?"
maybe because the city of Brest was completely occupied at 7.00 am on June 22, 1941, because there was no one to defend it

[kalibr]

Quote: Stroporez

After all, it is clear that in the period of the revolutionary class struggle, the victorious class dictates its will to the defeated class.

And the defeated one spits into the winners' compote and surrenders en masse, not wanting to fight for them. That's all!

[kalibr]

Quote: Stroporez

I have always called the counter-revolution of 85-91-93, a kulak coup.

You should also defend your dissertation on this topic. The prices would not have been this study.

[aglet]

"You should have defended your dissertation on this topic. There would be no price for this study."
well, it's hard to compete with you, you've already gotten ahead of yourself

[kalibr]

Quote: aglet

it is difficult to compete with you, you have already rushed in advance

Now more documents are open and no one is looking back at Glavpur. So it is quite possible. And in Soviet times it was much more difficult.

[Constanty]

It turned out that the Germans did not succeed in completely destroying, that is, crushing, precisely those of our armies ...

completely no, for example from 8 armies

10th Rifle Division - the division headquarters was preserved. In 62 joint venture personnel there are 150 people and one heavy machine gun, there is no other material part. In the 204th joint venture, 30 people survived, an additional 600 people detained in the rear were poured in. Of the armament, the regiment has only rifles and light machine guns. 98 bn does not exist. 30 ap lost 23 guns. The PTO division has 2 guns. Consequently, the 10th RD as a division is not combat-ready.

... on which they threw just significantly (if not extremely) superior forces and means.

On June 22, 1941, the Red Army had a clear numerical advantage over the Wehrmacht. In people, tanks, planes, guns ... (if not extremely).
The fact that, despite the gross imbalance, the Germans managed to achieve local superiority testifies to their operational abilities and, on the other hand, to serious mistakes in the Red Army command.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

On June 22, 1941, the Red Army had a clear numerical advantage over the Wehrmacht. In people, tanks, planes, guns ... (if not extremely).

And also over the dai-Nippon teikoku rikugun ...

[Constanty]

I don't quite understand the idea behind this recording - we are talking about the Soviet-German war.
But even if part of the USSR's troops had to be prepared for a war with Japanese troops, the troops of the western military districts themselves outnumbered the German troops.
It's not a secret to anybody:
The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945). Static collection No. 1 (July 22, 1941) Moscow 1994

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

the troops of the western military districts themselves outnumbered the German troops.

And what about the allies? And about the concentration in the places of the main blows, what can you hear?

[mat-vey]

Romanian minus?

[Constanty]

Excuse me, but which allies supported the German troops in the battles with the already mentioned 8th and 11th armies? As far as I know, most of the Oddeski fought with the Romanians, and although the Germans had practically no reinforcements after the start of the operation, another 5 million people were mobilized in the Red Army within 9 days after the start of the war.

And about concentration So I repeat

The fact that, despite the gross imbalance, the Germans managed to achieve local superiority testifies to their operational abilities and, on the other hand, to serious mistakes in the Red Army command.

German troops quickly covered great distances, and yet a significant part of the Wehrmacht's infantry did not have a transport.
Because of the chaos in the command and the masses of often conflicting orders, Soviet units moved back and forth until the military units lost their combat capability to find themselves in the right place on the battlefield - an example of the operation of Boldin's troops in Belarus. , mechanized corps marches in the Dubno - Lutsk - Brody area ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

Excuse me, but which allies supported the German troops in the battles with the already mentioned 8th and 11th armies?

Quote: Constanty

On June 22, 1941, the Red Army had a clear numerical advantage over the Wehrmacht. In people, tanks, planes, guns ... (if not extremely).

[Constanty]

And what about these quotes is not true. Please, indicate.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

And what about these quotes is not true. Please, indicate.

Quote: mat-vey

Excuse me, but which allies supported the German troops in the battles with the already mentioned 8th and 11th armies?

Where did I discuss the 8th and 11th armies with you? It was about

Quote: mat-vey

On June 22, 1941, the Red Army had a clear numerical advantage over the Wehrmacht. In people, tanks, planes, guns ... (if not extremely).

[Constanty]

Read the article - the author's theses were substantiated by examples of the actions of the 8th and 11th armies.

The second quote is also correct.
Yes, I repeat, on June 22, the size of the Red Army and the number of weapons many times exceeded the size of the Wehrmacht and its weapons (you can find specific figures of the Red Army, such as 48 647 field guns, 53 117 mortars, 8680 anti-aircraft guns, 23400 tanks, 6243 bombers, 8637 fighters, 57 attack aircraft, 1049 reconnaissance aircraft, 4824 dr.)
The advantage of the Red Army in technology (aircraft, guns and especially tanks) was enormous !!!
Romanian and Italian troops did not make much of a contribution to this cause.

[strannik1985]

Yes, I repeat on June 22 the size of the Red Army and the number of weapons

Children's distortion.
Armament by itself does not fight, units and formations had to be mobilized, in the western military units by June 22, there was not a single unit according to wartime states. It follows that this weapon was in the PPD / summer camps / echelons throughout the territory of the western military units, while the Germans carried out mobilization back in 1939 and the troops by the summer of 1941 had one echelon + reserves. That is, at every moment in time, the Germans had an advantage in forces and means over the Red Army on the battlefield.

[Constanty]

... units and formations had to be mobilized, in the western VOs by June 22 there was not a single formation according to wartime states.

Yes. children's distortion.
And how, before June 22, the formations were supposed to be in wartime states, if there was peace?

Mobilization was announced on June 19, three days before the start of the war.
Some units received new equipment, the old then often remained in the units as supernumerary (they were not taken into account in official reports) - especially with regard to aviation and armored weapons.

It follows that this weapon was in PPD / summer camps / echelons throughout the territory of the western military units.

What did the reconnaissance do, that they did not notice the accumulation of several million forces near the border, that many Soviet troops ended up in summer camps, that they were completely surprised. After all, this testifies to the great negligence in preparing the army for war. This is not the fault of the soldiers, but of the command of all levels, including Stalin.
(the constant leitmotif of current Russian films about the war is the bathing of Soviet soldiers by the river, artillery fire and, like smoke, the disappearance of parts of the command staff, all organized resistance and single heroic soldiers)

Fact, There were many military units, vachelones directed to the border, but not from the western, but from the internal military districts.

But I agree on one thing - people are fighting, and, for example, Solonin noticed that June and July 1941 were a time when not everyone wanted to fight for the USSR. Only the criminal policy of the Germans changed the general attitude.

And only then did the war turn into the Patriotic War for Russians and citizens of the USSR.

[strannik1985]

Mobilization was announced

June 19 increased combat readiness, mobilization was announced on June 22. The estimated period of mobilization of the military district with the deployment of hospitals and spare parts is 30 days.

What did the intelligence do

Reported, but until the beginning of June, mainly one infantry was transported to the border, for example, on May 1, 52 formations, of which 3 tank, 2 motorized, 1 cavalry, brought another 29 in a month (of which 9 tank, 6 motorized), until June 22 48 more (5/5 respectively). In the same way, we deployed rifle divisions in the covering armies, by the summer of 1941 108 formations, of which 66 rifle, 24 tank, 12 motorized, 6 cavalry.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

Read the article - the author's theses were substantiated by examples of the actions of the 8th and 11th armies.

The author has a lot of things there ...

Quote: Constanty

you can find specific numbers of the Red Army

And in the western direction you can also find ... and how many were in which category of serviceability-readiness ...

Quote: Constanty

Romanian and Italian troops did not make much of a contribution to this cause.

What business? Their weapons could not kill anyone?
And yes, on June 22, the Germans had the most bombarded and most advanced in terms of tactics and strategy (proven practice) army.

[Constanty]

And in the western direction you can also find ... and how many were in which category of serviceability-readiness ...

And whose fault is the Germans in this?

The war in Europe has been going on for a year and a half. I think there was enough time to get ready?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

... I think there was enough time to get ready?

And how much time do you need for the industry to create all the necessary equipment to provide the army of that time? How much time is needed then to teach this technique to personnel, to train commanders, to conduct training in the interaction of both units and personnel of units ... Yes, finally, just to make tanks and bring a regular supply of fuel to these parts?

[Constanty]

After all, these units were formed only in September 1939?

A There was also combat experience.
In the article, the author mentioned the Germans who were trained in Spain - for example, Richtofen. But there were also Russians - so what? The Germans were gaining experience there, and the Russians - only medals? - the best example of General Pavlov. He received a GSS star. for Spain - after which it led to the collapse of the Soviet tank corps.
Miracles!

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

After all, these parts were formed only in September 1939.

And how then, by 1941, the number of the Red Army increased several times?

Quote: Constanty

In the article, the author mentioned the Germans who were trained in Spain - for example, Richtofen. But there were also Russians - so what? The Germans were gaining experience there, and the Russians - only medals?

The author of the unit who fought in France, and then on June 22, who were in the directions of the main attack, did not list? How long does it take to mobilize and at least complete the units did not mention? Really miracles ..

[aglet]

"And how then, by 1941, the number of the Red Army increased several times?"
called in storekeepers, almost a million

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

Кonstanty (Konstanty) 6 March 2021 13:40
-1

After all, these units were formed only in September 1939?

Have you tried to answer this question?

[aglet]

"And how much time do you need for the industry to create all the necessary equipment to provide the army of that time? How much time is needed then to teach this technique to personnel, to train commanders, to conduct training in the interaction of both units and personnel of units .." . "
On June 22, 1941, in the border districts and fleets of the USSR, 15 armies out of 172 divisions, including 40 tank (approximately half-manned), had: 3 soldiers and officers, 289 guns and mortars, 850 aircraft, 59 tank. apparently, the industry had enough time to create such a mass of equipment. the Germans had much less

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

3 289 850 soldiers and officers, 59 787 guns and mortars, 10 743 aircraft, 12 782 tanks.

Well, about those state of the art it is separate, there was already a reference ... But for the creation of shells, tanks for transporting fuel, tractors and other vehicles for some reason, it was not enough .. although if all this equipment can go without fuel, then there are more questions not ...

[strannik1985]

But for some reason, it was not enough to create shells, tanks for transporting fuel, tractors and other vehicles ..

Because the vast majority of these tanks were part of the NPP brigades, there were only 4 mobile units - mechanized (later tank) corps. LTBR - about 200-250 vehicles, of which 45 Zis-6 AC or with barrels, TD model 1941 -1360 vehicles. And if there was more or less enough equipment for the 8-9 MKs of the formation of the summer of 1940, then there is no longer to create an additional 21 mechanized corps.

[mat-vey]

Quote: strannik1985

But for some reason, it was not enough to create shells, tanks for transporting fuel, tractors and other vehicles ..

Because the vast majority of these tanks were part of the NPP brigades, there were only 4 mobile units - mechanized (later tank) corps. LTBR - about 200-250 vehicles, of which 45 Zis-6 AC or with barrels, TD model 1941 -1360 vehicles. And if there was more or less enough equipment for the 8-9 MKs of the formation of the summer of 1940, then there is no longer to create an additional 21 mechanized corps.

I'm kind of shorter - without infantry and PTA dowries, the tanks are as naked in the cold ..

[aglet]

"But for the creation of tanks for the transportation of fuel, for some reason, there was not enough money"
the Germans did not have tanks for the transportation of fuel either. they transported gasoline in cans and barrels because they believed that tankers were very vulnerable

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

that tankers are very vulnerable

In the USSR, it was believed that the railway should be transported in tanks .... for some reason ..

[aglet]

"What's the matter? Their weapons couldn't kill anyone?"
could, of course. they just didn't fight back then

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"What's the matter? Their weapons couldn't kill anyone?"
could, of course. they just didn't fight back then

How funny, but the Red Army was all on the western border? If you are really comparing the numerical strength of the Wehrmacht, the Red Army will be better ..

[aglet]

"How funny, but the Red Army was all on the western border?"
in fact, we are only talking about the construction battalion. read carefully before answering

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

in fact, we are only talking about the construction battalion. read carefully before answering

Quote: Constanty

Yes, I repeat, on June 22, the size of the Red Army and the number of weapons many times exceeded the strength of the Wehrmacht and its

Have you read the thread?

[aglet]

"And also over dai-nippon teikoku rikugun."
well, very funny. numbers you, as I understand, do not know how to count?

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"And also over dai-nippon teikoku rikugun."
well, very funny. numbers you, as I understand, do not know how to count?

And I realized that comparing the entire Red Army with what the Germans had with their allies is not even funny ... it already smells like something else ...

[aglet]

"And I realized that comparing the entire Red Army with what the Germans had with their allies is not even funny."
and you compare, and count the numbers for June 22, and when the confederates entered the war

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"And I realized that comparing the entire Red Army with what the Germans had with their allies is not even funny."
and you compare, and count the numbers for June 22, and when the confederates entered the war

After all, we were talking about the multiple numerical superiority of the Red Army over the Wehrmacht - read the thread before mentoring ..

[SVD68]

Surrender always has one reason - disorganization.

[Undecim]

We tried to analyze the various points of view of specialists on this matter. And we will present to you their quintessence in the series "Betrayal of 1941".
I wonder who are these "we" who claim to create a kind of "quintessence"? So far, it looks more like another draft of "substance". Gentlemen "we" did not even bother to deal with the combat strength of the Red Army troops on June 22, 1941, but are going to sculpt "the quintessence."
As part of the North-Western Front, they lost the entire 27th Army, the 11th Mechanized Corps from the 3rd Army of the Western Front was "transferred" to the 11th Army of the Northwestern Front. Somehow this approach does not pull the "quintessence".

[3x3zsave]

I wonder who these "we" are,
Judging by the style and aplomb, Madame Frolova.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Undecim

And we will present to you their quintessence in the series "Betrayal of 1941".

And what is typical, in the title there is a sonorous word "Betrayal", and then a loaded pond.

[Avior]

Below I gave a link to an article from LJ

[Undecim]

Below I gave a link to an article from LJ
Which was immediately removed. This does not work here. Better in a personal.

[Avior]

At the end of comments
I can see
But you can do it with a personal

[Undecim]

I added information about the article under your comment.

[north 2]

but Vlasov was similar in all ranks. Starting from generals and ending with privates. Their total percentage of the entire personnel of the Red Army was not large, but just in a difficult situation they were enough to persuade the unit to surrender. Proceeding from this, we can now ask ourselves the question, that either Stalin before the war imprisoned and shot the wrong people, or Stalin imprisoned and shot a little before the war. Remember the film "Confrontation" where the traitor Krotov dragged the wounded political instructor Kozel to the Germans. So if there were such people among the rank and file, it means that they were among the officers as well. The genetics of betrayal are the same for all members of the fifth column of the state. From a private to a general, from a Russophobe to a hater of everything Soviet, from a fan of the West for a gift to a seller of the Motherland for slandering the Motherland in his books .. The only difference is who can drive one to the enemies, and who can drive a whole company at least ... Belenko could hijack only one MiG, and Gorbachev the whole country ...
And there is a big difference between surrendered and captured. As for the catastrophe of the Red Army near Kharkov, the fact that there were so many dead and captured, the one whom Stalin did not see as traitors, Khrushchev, blamed Stalin for this catastrophe. Although it has now been fully proven that the perpetrators of the disaster are Khrushchev himself and Tymoshenko ... And from such facts ... because Khrushchev himself is to blame ... the whole biography of Khrushchev was sewn from such facts. Therefore, he pounced on Stalin after his death. And from here again the same question again - or did Stalin put the wrong ones against the wall, or did he put it a little ...?

[Avior]

... Vlasov was similar in all ranks. Starting from generals and ending with privates. Their total percentage of the entire personnel of the Red Army was not large, but just in a difficult situation they were enough to persuade the unit to surrender.

Vlasov, before he was captured, fought very well, he was awarded and promoted in rank.
And in the environment he tried to bring those who were with him to his own - there is evidence of this.
Vlasov is accused of having changed his oath in captivity and began to fight on the side of Prague.

[Vovk]

As for the catastrophe of the Red Army near Kharkov, the fact that there were so many dead and captured, the one whom Stalin did not see as traitors, Khrushchev, blamed Stalin for this catastrophe.

I will cite a small fact that many Kharkiv residents will confirm this. Everyone knew about a possible flank attack by the Germans. Local residents warned both intelligence and command. So Tymoshenko and Khrushchev were more than aware and the rate was also aware, but how to break the order received from the rate? Do not consider Tymoshenko a complete military amateur.
So Stalin's fault was also in the Kharkov catastrophe.

Although it has now been fully proven that the perpetrators of the disaster are Khrushchev himself and Tymoshenko ...

Even now, you will not get all the documents about that disaster from the archives. It is not surprising, but on most of the documents about the catastrophe of the Red Army near Kharkov, the secrecy label has not been removed.

[Konnick]

not surprising, but most of the documents about the disaster of the Red Army near Kharkov have not been classified as classified

.

There are a lot of interesting moments and this operation was supposed to be successful, but as always, German aviation intervened in the matter. At first, it was concentrated from the entire Southern group to defeat the Crimean Front and then transferred to Kharkov, where it stopped our tank brigades.

[Alsur]

Quote: Uncle Lee

And here is a photo: the soldier did not bend!

By the way, I read that this place was recently found by a characteristic stone in the place where it was shot.

[Avior]

The author can only be guessed at
I admit that the author is Pokrovsky S.G.
There is a similar article
https://amp-amp.livejournal.com/68810.html
There is also a link to the publication on VO 2010 on the same topic.

https://topwar.ru/1068-izmena-1941-goda-chast-1.html

And about the fact that at the beginning of the war they did not surrender, about 2 thousand of our soldiers were killed in the defense of the Brest Fortress, about 7 thousand surrendered in fact within three days. It happened in different ways. : (((

[Undecim]

You are right, the author of the article is Stanislav Georgievich Pokrovsky. Materials about the author can be found online. This article is more than ten years old, since the author passed away in 2012. It was published for the first time on the website "Mysterious Country" and even then caused an ambiguous reaction. For example, you can see the article "Anti-treason. My answer to S. G. Pokrovsky" on the site "The Great Slandered War".
Source: https://liewar.ru/tragediya-22-iyunya/204-anti-izmena-moj-otvet-sg-pokrovskomu.html
Someone from the site authors decided to use the article and make a quick sketch, without even bothering to make inquiries.

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

about 7 thousand surrendered in fact within three days.

It would be more correct to say - they were taken prisoner.
Many heroes of the defense were taken prisoner, the same regimental commissar Fomin, who was subsequently shot.
There were, of course, those who just raised their hands. And there were those who simply exhausted the possibilities for further defense.

[Avior]

Wounded, Gavrilov was taken prisoner, a month later, against his will.
The rest surrendered within a few days.
Wikipedia generally describes the situation as follows

The bulk of the servicemen who remained in the Brest Fortress, deprived of their command, did not take part in the hostilities and during the first days surrendered en masse. In fact, only an insignificant part of the garrison put up active resistance to the enemy. The defenders of the fortress spontaneously united into various battle groups, acting mostly in isolation. A unified command was not organized. In this regard, the garrison of the fortress missed the opportunity to repel the attacks of the units of the 45th Infantry Division, unblock the exits from the fortress and carry out an orderly exit from it.

it is hardly possible to say about 7 thousand of them 9 that they were "captured" :(
The reasons are in the quote, perhaps with a different situation with the command in the fortress, the situation would have been different, but in reality, it is just that. As far as I understand, about 400 people out of 9 put up really active resistance for any length of time. A significant part of the victims was when they tried to leave the fortress.

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

about 400 people out of 9 thousand

Well, the Eastern Fort held out the longest and nevertheless surrendered, just about 400 people (according to German data). What category should they be classified in?
And there were also other areas.

[Avior]

There were, it turns out, the figure was higher. Correct me in numbers, all the same it will not change anything fundamentally.
Wikipedia gives the following diagram

By the evening of June 24, the Germans captured most of the fortress, with the exception of the section of the ring barracks ("Officers' House") near the Brest (Three-Arched) gates of the citadel, casemates in the earthen rampart on the opposite bank of the Mukhavets ("point 145") and the so-called "Eastern Fort" - its defense, which consisted of 400 soldiers and commanders of the Red Army, was commanded by Major P. M. Gavrilov (commander of the 44th Infantry Regiment) [2]. On this day, the Germans managed to capture 1250 defenders of the fortress.

25-26 June
Continued attempts to break through from the citadel were unsuccessful. After blowing up several compartments of the circular barracks of the "House of Officers" on June 25-26, the last 450 defenders of the citadel and point 145 laid down their arms.

The eastern fort surrendered on the 29th according to the Germans.

389 people surrendered in the evening; from their commander, the major, they now received permission to surrender. They were not shaken at all, looked strong and well nourished.

In general, the conversation was about the fact that they did not surrender from the regular army.

[icant007]

I do not dispute any figures for the prisoners.
I'm talking about the fact that, in your opinion, about 400 people out of 9 thousand who were in the fortress put up stubborn resistance.
And are these 389 people of the Eastern Fort included in the specified group or not?
And where, then, to write down the 2 thousand dead? Didn't they put up stubborn resistance?

[Avior]

these 400 people put up the longest resistance - a week, and only then surrendered. If the Germans were able to use aviation earlier - the weather prevented - most likely they would have surrendered earlier. 6200 out of 7 thousand prisoners were in captivity by the end of 4 days of hostilities.
As for the dead, there is no direct connection with their actions, they could have died fighting the enemy, but they could have died under fire in the first minutes of the attack, trying, for example, to leave the fortress or for another reason.

[icant007]

So, in the end, what is the conclusion? From your words, it turns out there was no defense of the Brest Fortress in the traditional heroic sense.
And it was "about 7 thousand surrendered in fact in the first three days"

[Avior]

The troops that were in the fortress were ordered in the opposite direction - to leave the fortress as quickly as possible, and not to defend it.
Which they tried to do to the best of their ability and strength, unfortunately, they did not succeed ..
And the fact that 7 thousand surrendered, the figure is not correct in your opinion?
7200 is a figure from the report of the commander of the 45th division, some write that 6800 surrendered.
it is not clear what you are arguing about actually ...

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

The troops that were in the fortress were ordered in the opposite direction - to leave the fortress as quickly as possible, and not to defend it.

Not everyone. One rifle regiment and an artillery division were supposed to defend the fortress (maybe I don't remember exactly the regiment).
In fact, on June 22, there were enough combat units in the fortress for about one regiment. All other units were part of the logistics and combat support.

Quote: Avior

And the fact that 7 thousand surrendered, the figure is not correct in your opinion?

I told you that I do not argue over the numbers. I argue with the essence of the number.
Surrendered voluntarily, mainly under the influence of German agitation, about 3 thousand people.
All the others did their duty honestly. Many captured, then died while trying to escape.

Quote: Avior

it is not clear what you are arguing about actually ...

I realized that for you the Brest Fortress is a shameful page in our history, but for me an example of heroism and perseverance.

[Avior]

In fact, on June 22, there were enough combat units in the fortress for about one regiment. All other units were part of the logistics and combat support.

who had their own tasks and orders. both combat units and support units.
and, naturally, they tried to fulfill them, for which they left the fortress.
I don’t know where you got the information about the regiment

Of the troops stationed in the fortress, only one rifle battalion was envisaged for its defense, reinforced by an artillery battalion.

Surrendered voluntarily, mainly under the influence of German agitation, about 3 thousand people.

the rest, it turns out, surrendered involuntarily?
And where did you get the figure of 3? are they the ones that surrendered on the first and second day?
so the propaganda vehicles arrived only on the second day, 23.06, in the evening.
after their performances 1900 surrendered. 1100 on the first day surrendered before the arrival of the cars. How do you even imagine the involuntary surrender of a thousand people?
well, a few can be captured by the wounded, for example, but a thousand or two? and so on for four days in a row.

I realized that for you the Brest Fortress is a shameful page in our history, but for me an example of heroism and perseverance.

undoubtedly, such examples were also not unique.
is it convenient, probably, for the opponent to come up with his position?
I personally did not write anything like that. People behaved according to the conditions in which they were placed - I wrote this, see above.

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

is it convenient, probably, for the opponent to come up with his position?

.
Well, you stubbornly kept silent and did not make an assessment of the actions of the Brest Fortress as a whole, and assessed it as a triple, apparently. "Such examples were also not unique." Well, thank you.
And then, with such an attitude, we will be engaged in the military-patriotic education of young people.

[Avior]

Do you want to solve everything only globally within the framework of one post?
To cover everything at once and give answers to all questions in the world?
I don't know, I'm sorry, how old you are.
I heard about the battle in the Brest Fortress 40-45 years ago, and maybe a little earlier.
And in what they told me then there was not a word about the fact that there were 9 thousand people in the fortress, of which 7 thousand surrendered in captivity within a week, most of which in the first few days. And there was not much else in that story about the battle in the fortress, which is now known.
And those stories convinced that the defenders of the fortress preferred to die, but not surrender.
And now I am already an adult man, and not a kid who heard about this for the first time, I understand that I was deceived in this matter. But I am not inclined to your assessment of the world - if not heroes, then you immediately have a "shameful page" and nothing else.

[icant007]

I am 45. I have been to the Brest Fortress several times, which of course does not make me an expert. But when they say that 7 thousand surrendered, but did not surrender in any way, then this also distorts the picture, as does the statement about general heroism.

http://fortification.ru/forum/index.php?topic=4932.0
About how we "gave up".

And nobody has deceived you. This is now being deceived, they are engaged in revisionism, substituting bare numbers as arguments.

[Avior]

Yes, they did not deceive
They just didn't tell the whole truth
Read the publications of the Soviet era, Smirnov the same.
And what exactly should I read on your link and for what purpose?
Is there something there that I did not write to you?

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

Is there something there that I did not write to you?

There is how people were taken prisoner, and not surrendered.
The figure 7 thousand has hammered your head.

[aglet]

"From your words, there was no defense of the Brest Fortress in traditional heroic understanding. "
yes, most likely it was. there were separate pockets of resistance, which then the propaganda raised on the shield

[icant007]

Quote: aglet

yes, most likely it was. there were separate pockets of resistance,

What do separate centers of resistance mean?
The South Island fought, the West, North, Central fought. This is the whole fortress.
Yes, they initially fought separately. This is precisely where heroism lies, the ability to self-organize, to act autonomously in the absence of a unified management.

[aglet]

"it is hardly possible to say about 7 thousand of them 9 that they were" taken prisoner "
Why not? if they were taken there by the commanders, if the commanders abandoned their subordinate units, if they ran out of ammunition and there was no connection with the command? will you fight like this for a long time?

[icant007]

Quote: aglet

"it is hardly possible to say about 7 thousand of them 9 that they were" taken prisoner "
Why not? if they were taken there by the commanders, if the commanders abandoned their subordinate units, if they ran out of ammunition and there was no connection with the command? will you fight like this for a long time?

I agree, everyone's situations were different. I argue with Avior over the wording "give up."
An insignificant part of the garrison surrendered, some became cowardly, and some really had nothing to fight with.
And the blame is the phrase from Wikipedia "The bulk of the servicemen who remained in the Brest Fortress, deprived of their command, did not take part in the hostilities and during the first days surrendered en masse."

[aglet]

"during the first days she surrendered en masse."
yes, they surrendered and were captured, in my opinion, different things

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

And you did not ask yourself the question - who are these surrendered prisoners?

[icant007]

Quote: Andrey Krasnoyarsky

And you did not ask yourself the question - who are these surrendered prisoners?

Most of them are fighters and commanders, a small part are women and children.

But I can be mistaken, I do not know the topic deeply.
Do you have your own version?

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

The first year of the Great Patriotic War is one of the most mysterious periods in the life of the Soviet Union.

Fuck a revelation. However, after the "palaces of Hitler in Ukraine", you need to make a certain effort to take Madame Frolova seriously) It's funny - as an argument to quote a memoir about "rolled up sleeves" and "poured from machine guns." Although, this fits well with the general infantilism of her writings.

[Operator]

Who is the author of this opus?

[Alexfly]

How long will 60-100 rounds last without reinforcements and supplies ... in that chaos when there is no communication. By the way, now communication is also a weak link ..

[geniy]

And did any of the readers, and the author himself, notice that the article is called: Betrayal... Troubles ... That is, allegedly not at all the merits of the German and the shortcomings of the Soviet troops, namely betrayal! But no actual facts betrayals the author of this article for some reason does not lead ... Probably his memory is too weak. He writes more and more about the heroism of the Soviet troops and the great experience of the German troops.
And were there traitors in the Red Army in large numbers? And how many were there, at least approximately: tens of thousands of traitorous officers? And were these "thousands of traitors" united in one huge organization, or each of them acted separately from the others?
I hope that readers understand that I am writing this with sarcasm, since I do not believe in any mass betrayal. If confusion, panic and stupidity in the Soviet troops were in the millions - but this was not at all a betrayal - this is worse. But isn't the author of this article too stupid if he believes that the reason for the defeat of 1941 was the massive betrayal of Soviet officers?

[meandr51]

There were traitors, moreover, among the command of the Western District. About them will be in the continuation of the article.

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

Mass surrender was observed in units whose personnel were manned mainly by immigrants from Western Ukraine and Western Belarus. Here is one fact that we prefer not to voice - on the first day of the war, a significant part of the garrison of the Brest Fortress immediately surrendered. All those who surrendered were recruited from the territories I indicated. But the rest fought desperately and to the last bullet, even when there was no hope of repelling the German assault. Therefore, the Brest Fortress deservedly received the title of Hero Fortress.

[Avior]

you can provide a link confirming your statement.
There were all sorts of different units in the fortress, just a national team.
And what, right after all from Western Ukraine and Western Belarus they recruited?
besides, your statement

the rest fought desperately and to the last bullet

does not correspond to the facts, surrendered in large quantities and after the first day of the war.
Is it really true there out of 9 thousand garrison 7 thousand were from the regions you indicated?
It's hard to believe without documents.

[icant007]

Quote: Avior

There were all sorts of different units in the fortress, just a national team.

Support.
Moreover, there was a ban on the conscription of conscripts from Zap. Belarus, Z. Ukraine and other liberated territories.
Nevertheless, on the territory of the fortress, since May, the collection of the assigned staff was carried out just from Zap. Belarus. Estimates vary from one thousand to two, but the question remains whether they were in the fortress that fateful night. Their camp was close to the gate, they could quickly leave.

[Desperado]

"On the line Baltic Sea - Carpathians, the offensive of the fascists ..." after that, you can no longer read, the article was written by an amateur.

[Constanty]

You can analyze and analyze the events of 1941 in various aspects - also critical from the point of view of tactics or strategy - and I understand this perfectly well - the USSR then made many mistakes and suffered many defeats. - I will only say that despite the loss of almost all the manpower of the army , despite the defeat and loss of a significant part of the territory, but even despite this persistence and victory indicates the willpower of the citizens of the CCCP. Many countries (and I'm not only talking about France ) would collapse in the face of such losses. The USSR withstood and defeated Nazism. The costs were enormous, but failure would mean the end of the Slavs and many others. And it deserves a lot of respect
The victims are sorry, and the title of the article is very unfair for many, because even most of those who were captured were not traitors.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Constanty

The USSR then made many mistakes and suffered many defeats. - I can only say that despite the loss of almost all the manpower of the army,

It is, of course, "mistakes", the loss of the army ... For example, Napoleon reached Moscow faster than Hitler for as much as a month. And everything seemed to be without mistakes on the part of Barclay and Kutuzov. And Moscow was handed over to the French not because of mistakes, but thanks to the "perspicacity" of the authorities ... ... The brain is composted so that everything is inside out.
As for the "gigantic losses" - pay attention to the front - they were drafted into the army in the USSR from 1941 to 1945 from the age of 18. And in the Reich in 1941-1943 from 20 years, from 1943 from 17, from 1945 from 16 and even 15... Moreover, more than 2 million people lived in the occupied territories of the SSR for more than 60 years, who, naturally, not all went to the partisans, but worked for whom? To Germany.
And who then remained in the USSR, if supposedly "the army was lost"? Naked “heroism of a soldier” that can explain anything at all? This is not how things are done. ALL THE PROMOTION FOR THE LAST HALF CENTURY SINCE CRUSHING, BLN-SHIELD WITH WHITE THREADS!
It is the same with human resources at the beginning of the War. According to the 1939 census, 170 million lived in the USSR. By 1941 - already 190-195 (!) - which of the authors will have enough conscience. Since there was no census on the territories annexed in 1940, there was no ... .. they had not yet managed to process the data for 1939.
And how to find out the decrease during the War? Yes, just compare with the 1959 census, and here millions of non-existent, but "supposedly attached" millions in 1940 will be very useful. From these there is Khrushchev's rumor about 20 and even 25 million! Although in the history of wars, for some reason, the main losses are always borne by those who were smashed to pieces and who lacked men for the front, and not by those who won.

[Constanty]

And who then remained in the USSR if allegedly "the army was lost"

Almost the entire cadre army.
It should have sounded like this - the translator changed the meaning of the statement.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Constanty

Almost the entire cadre army.

And that there was a regular army only in the west? There were militias in the rest of the USSR?

[aglet]

"And that the regular army was only in the west? There were militias in the rest of the USSR?"
No, there was also a military district in Penza - 3 million personnel, 15 thousand tanks, 25 thousand aircraft, and two battleships. Why keep an army in the middle of Russia? there were terdivisions, the real troops were oriented to the west, and east, the most dangerous directions

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"And that the regular army was only in the west? There were militias in the rest of the USSR?"
No, there was also a military district in Penza - 3 million personnel, 15 thousand tanks, 25 thousand aircraft, and two battleships. Why keep an army in the middle of Russia? there were terdivisions, the real troops were oriented to the west, and east, the most dangerous directions

There is such a funny thing - if you get involved in a dialogue, you should at least read it ... but you probably had no time for that ..

[vladcub]

I like today's Samsonov: no fantasies

[Ivan Shcherbakov]

As I think, at first there were a lot of dissatisfied people and therefore low combat effectiveness. But when they saw what the invaders were doing, people became embittered.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Ivan Shcherbakov

As I think, at first there were many dissatisfied, therefore, the low combat effectiveness ... But after seeing what the invaders were doing

How else ? So in 1812, they first allowed the French to reach Moscow, burned it down. And then they look: "Honest mother! But what are they bastards doing ... we thought that we have serfdom and therefore they want to free us, but it is awesome!" Only it is not clear how they could "see what they are doing" if for this they must first return the occupied territories? Probably exchanged by 'WhatsApp' ....

[boni592807]

Author of the article: "... Incomprehensible and vague as well for descendants and for all those who then met this year 1941 in the ranks of the armed forces of the USSR ...:

History - always give a chance, not only remember the past, but also draw conclusions for your PRESENT. Пunderstand the reasons for both past defeats and victories. [/ I]
The main thing for the present time in our situation, [i] is the answer to the question - present Russia (RF) - Are you ready for the likelihood of a new "friend" of 1941? NOT just personnel, ...

The story of 2 MV (WWII) showed that that Russia (USSR) coped. And this is not only the economy, industry, but also their mobility, health, incl. moral and psychological and training of the mob reserve and conscripts, and the spirit, both at the front and in the rear.!!!!

[Alexander Koshkin]

Military history should not be changed by numerology.

[Aviator_]

Anonymous material again? The topic is worthy of wide discussion, but with whom? Who is the author?

[meandr51]

Units that were left without command, ammunition, fuel, as well as unarmed construction units, of which there were many, were surrendered. At that time, a significant part of the Soviet command in the Western District either wanted to surrender their units themselves, or were not sufficiently prepared.

[BAI]

On the other hand, a paradoxically large number of soldiers surrendered.

There is no paradox here. The large number of prisoners is due to the following reasons:
1. Conscripts from the territories annexed in 1939 were not eager to fight for the USSR.
2. There were a lot of people who were dissatisfied with the existing regime, because:
2.1. Only 24 years have passed since the revolution. There were a lot of people left who remembered that time and wanted to come back.
2.2. Only 20 years have passed since the end of the Civil War - many blood enemies of the Soviet power remained.
2.3. Ten years have passed since collectivization - again there are many disaffected.
2.4. Continuing repressions - again, a mass of dissatisfied.
Thus, we see that by 1941 there were a huge number of people who were drafted into the army, but did not want to fight for the USSR.
3. Criminal mistakes of the command, which, being not capable of maneuvering war, at any cost tried to hold the territory, which doomed the best troops, who were able to reflect the blow, to the encirclement. It is not a sin to remember Halder: "The Russians will do us a great service if they stubbornly hold on to their positions." It should be remembered that at least in 1941 all the troops that were surrounded were doomed to destruction - no help was provided to them. Everyone had to stand still (see Halder's remark) and die on the spot.
And only thanks to Hitler's mediocre policy, when it became clear to everyone that under Hitler it was worse than under Stalin, the mass surrender stopped. And the command learned a thing or two.

And where in German books are stories about the mass surrender of the Red Army in the Baltic states? I do not have it either. And you can't even find episodes.

And there were no large boilers. And the mass surrender took place where there were large boilers. At the same time, one should not confuse surrender and desertion. These are somewhat different things.

The Lithuanian corps, almost in full force, went over to the side of the Germans. At the same time, part of the Soviet command staff was treacherously killed. In the Latvian corps, most of the servicemen had to be disarmed and disbanded due to their unreliability.

Source: "Mass desertion": how Soviet soldiers from the Baltic States distinguished themselves in 1941
© Russian Seven russian7.ru

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: BAI

The large number of prisoners is due to the following reasons:
1. Conscripts from the territories annexed in 1939 were not eager to fight for the USSR.
2. There were a lot of people who were dissatisfied with the existing regime, because:

Let's admit. Then what explains:
1. A huge number of prisoners in European countries, especially with small bloody losses?
2. A large number of German prisoners.
3. A large number of captured Russian soldiers in WW1. - in percentage terms more than in the 2nd quarter?

[Konnick]

Source: "Mass desertion": how Soviet soldiers from the Baltic States distinguished themselves in 1941
© Russian Seven russian7.ru

This site cannot be used as a source, it is like a perestroika "Ogonyok".

[Konnick]

.

In the Latvian corps, most of the servicemen had to be disarmed and disbanded due to their unreliability.

Complete lies.
It was these Latvians who stopped Manstein's tanks in the Pushkin Mountains for nine whole days.

[bubalik]

It was these Latvians who stopped Manstein's tanks

,,, how could they stop them if they weren't there?
,,, On June 29-30, 1941, Latvian servicemen were partially demobilized from the 24th Latvian Territorial Rifle Corps of the Red Army, partly fled.
As early as the 20th and up to June 25th, conscripts from the Moscow region began to arrive at the corps.

After June 22, 1941, Russian commanders and political workers were shot in the back, damaged property and weapons, hijacked vehicles, and desertion spread.

Combat reports of the headquarters of the corps of units and formations June 25 - August 12, 1941, p. 19

The corps communications battalion with almost its full complement (three companies) with weapons in hand, together with its commander Lieutenant Colonel Karlis Aperats, deserted from the corps and began hostilities in the Vecpiebalga forests against the retreating parts of the Red Army.
On August 16, the 24th Latvian Territorial Rifle Corps was withdrawn from the Red Army and soon (September 1, 1941) was disbanded. The reasons are high losses and mass desertion of Latvian servicemen.

[ivan2022]

Quote: BAI

There were many dissatisfied with the existing regime, because:
2.1. Only 24 years have passed since the revolution. There were a lot of people left who remembered that time and wanted to come back.
2.2. Only 20 years have passed since the end of the Civil War - many blood enemies of the Soviet power remained.

It is very interesting, but the Reich Chief of the General Staff Guderian in his "Memories of a Soldier" was more careful in such judgments and wrote that unfortunately the Germans also sinned not very reasonable actions when the situation became difficult. IT IS BETTER TO HAVE AN ENEMY LIKE HIM, THAN SUCH A FATHER LIKE YOU.

[Umalta]

There are several factors of defeat and mass surrender. Many units were in summer camps without sufficient ammunition and fuel supplies, and the Germans, based on the results of aerial reconnaissance, knew the disdocation of these camps. The command staff was on leave for the weekend. Well, what could the soldiers and sergeants who fell under the air raids and shelling with the subsequent attack? Some commanders of the divisional and army level brought their units into full combat readiness on the eve of the attack, this concerns the South-West direction and there the Germans were very seriously hit in the teeth.

[Radical]

Quote: Zug

Your Father is no doubt a Hero, but how then did the Germans cover such a distance in such a time?

The Germans had such a tactic - deep cutting blows, followed by the encirclement of our formations and units, but this does not mean that ours did not fight for every inch and every house. If they had not fought, then both Moscow and Leningrad and Stalingrad would have fallen in the first days of the war.

[bar]

Nonsense, but someone believes ...

The only thought of the author who forgot to subscribe, with which I completely agree

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

There are traitors in any war. But honor and eternal memory, eternal glory, to the people who defended our Motherland. To our fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers.

[Gagik Ohanjanyan]

Here about Absolute Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K-FIuiv6wc&t=161s
About why "Russia cannot be understood with the mind ..."!
And about that --- why Russia cannot be betrayed!

[Pardus22]

The "legend" about the mass surrender of the Red Army soldiers is a "rehash" of Gebels' propaganda, taken up by the "liberals." These traitors deliberately denigrate the tragedy and exploits of the Red Army at the beginning of the war.

[kalibr]

Quote: aglet

it's hard to compete with you

There are many more documents open now than in Soviet times. There is no need to look back at Glavupur, to quote another general secretary. So if someone wants, why not?

[Barmal]

Thanks for the question posed.

[EvilLion]

When the Brest Fortress fought to the last breath and to the last cartridge.

7000 Prisoners from the 10-11 thousand garrison, which should not have been there at all.

It turned out that the Germans did not succeed in completely destroying, that is, defeating, precisely those of our armies, to which they threw just significantly (if not extremely) superior forces and means.

In the Middle Ages, a general battle was a huge risk, it was possible to lose as much as half of the army. It is quite difficult to grind an army of several hundred thousand people, which is greatly dispersed in space, especially if it is not going to surrender without exception. But the Germans still needed to grind at least linear units in order to reach the artillery units and carts that were not well adapted to infantry combat, which gave mostly prisoners.

Soviet soldiers push the Germans out of the border

And in 1945, the Germans sometimes succeeded in encircling Soviet units. Because mistakes and inaccuracies in intelligence are an objective reality. There are reserves, they are parried.

[gennady sh.]

"The facts of mass surrender of soldiers and officers in these two armies are not recorded." Then the locals shot EVERYONE. Apparently, so as not to feed

[Alexander Koshkin]

The reason for the defeats during the retreat of the spacecraft is complete unwillingness to conduct defensive battles! They were preparing to fight with little blood and on foreign territory! Talking about defense was like treason! The most professional personnel were knocked out during the purge of the spacecraft! The rest were de-paralyzed and incapable of analyzing the unpredictable dynamic military situation and organizing little resistance! Moreover, this lack of preparation was rampant, starting from the front, army, division up to the battalion level!
It is generally accepted that the Kiev tragedy occurred due to an untimely order to withdraw beyond the Dnieper! I think this is an attempt to find an excuse. In Crimea, they withdrew on time, and the number of defenders exceeded the number of attackers! The Krynsky Val was a more impenetrable defense system than the Dnieper! There was a time for organizing the defense and coordinating the actions of the combat arms! The result is the same - the Crimean catastrophe!
On reflection, it becomes clear that the orders to retreat were the very fatal triggers of the defeat!
The already weak connection of all formations and subunits, in conditions of retreat, turned into their complete isolation, and the retreat turned into a panicky flight!
The retreating headquarters of Kirponos had contact with only two of his five armies. One of these two armies had no connection with their formations, and the data that reached the headquarters were outdated or incorrect! The result is a complete and monstrous defeat! If the order were given to stand to death, then Kiev, most likely, was taken all the same. But those half a million soldiers and officers who then rotted in the German camps would have met the enemy face to face with weapons, and not with upraised hands! And the Germans would have paid a harsh price, as was the case in Brest and some other hotbeds of desperate defense! And, perhaps, Kiev would become the same stronghold as Leningrad!
Actually, the same thing happened during the defeat of the Western and all other fronts! When the Western Front was defeated, its losses were estimated at six hundred thousand against 2,5 thousand for the Germans (according to their data).
Surprisingly, the infamous order number 227 "Not one step back" put the retreat. After him, the losses of the Germans became fatal and their defeat was inevitable!

[Ascold1901]

... Pouring from empty to empty.))) Not a single link to documents.
The author put forward an unjustified and unconfirmed thesis "On the other hand, a paradoxically large number of soldiers surrendered." And he began to discourage him with his fabrications.
The question is - "paradoxically large number" is what number? How and with what was it compared?
Well, etc. etc.

[Bozhko Yuri]

Interesting comments, much more interesting than the main article itself. Sofa strategists do not just argue, but teach, harshly and categorically. And these are people who are completely incapable of understanding their ancestors, because many things cannot be understood without personally experiencing them. And you honor that, and you that. Themselves, it would seem, do not trust anyone, while they themselves are so gullible. Read the former construction battalion and you will understand everything, - one writes. And no one pays attention to the fact that the "construction battalion" is a Vlasovite who wrote his memoirs at the height of the "cold war" and so on and so forth. The trouble. Opportunities to write and publish any nonsense have increased, and the desire and ability to think less and less. Sorry.