Military Review

"Anti-torpedo disaster" of the Russian fleet

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In April 2018, the USS Virginia-class submarine USS John Warner was ready to sink Russian warships if they responded to a US air strike on Syria, Fox News reported.


And this could have the most disastrous consequences.

In fact, both our ships and our submarines would melt there "like kittens." Simply due to the complete absence of modern anti-torpedo protection (PTZ) and extremely serious problems with our underwater weapons.

Enemy


SSN-765 John Warner submarine belongs to one of the last sub-series of Virginia-class submarines, having, however, as anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons only torpedoes Mk48 mod.7., Used with 4 torpedo tubes (TA), with the ability, if necessary, to have in a salvo, all 4 torpedoes with telecontrol and simultaneous active maneuvering of submarines at speeds up to 20 knots.

"Anti-torpedo disaster" of the Russian fleet
PLA SSN-765 John Warner

On April 14, 2018, the United States, France and the United Kingdom launched a series of rocket attacks against government targets in Syria. According to American data, 105 different types of cruise missiles (CR) were used against three targets in Syria. 6 cruise missiles were launched from SSN-765 John Warner (USA) submarine from the Mediterranean Sea.

With a high probability, all these missile launchers were used from vertical launch units (VLU), and the TA, which were loaded with torpedoes, were ready for battle with our ships and submarines.

The composition of our forces in the Mediterranean


The grouping of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean Sea at that moment included warships: two frigates of project 11356 (P) "Admiral Grigorovich" and "Admiral Essen" and two diesel-electric submarines of project 06363 "Nizhny Novgorod" and "Kolpino", which on the eve of the strike of the coalition went to sea from the Tartus home base under the pretext of performing rocket firing:

On the website of the Federal Office of Civil aviation USA On April 4, 2018, a NOTAM message appeared (operational information on changes in the rules for conducting and ensuring flights, as well as aeronautical information) that from 7:00 on April 11, the Russian Navy will conduct exercises in the Nicosia region in the Eastern Mediterranean, in particular, rocket launches.

The restrictions will last until 15:00 on April 26.


The frigate "Admiral Grigorovich" at sea


Diesel-electric submarine "Nizhny Novgorod" goes to sea.

It should also be noted the exercises of the anti-submarine aviation of the Navy:

March 29, 2018. Anti-submarine Tu-142 conducted exercises in the Mediterranean Sea.

Russian anti-submarine aviation conducted exercises to search for submarines of a mock enemy in the Mediterranean, the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Alas, it was pointless to set the task of searching for actual boats for the Tu-142, due to the absolute obsolescence of their search and sighting systems (PPS) and radio hydroacoustic buoys (RGAB). A similar assessment can be given to the Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, which should be routinely based on Project 11356 (R) frigates.

At the same time, the question remains - were they there at all?

For too often our ships (including anti-submarine ones) go into combat with unarmed Ka-27PS search and rescue helicopters.

What could be the battle between the US Navy submarine and our ships?


The frigates "Admiral Grigorovich", "Admiral Essen" and "Admiral Makarov": hydroacoustic complex (GAK) MG-335M "Platina-M" with a sub-keel antenna (without towed), torpedoes SET-65, RBU-6000 with the possibility of using not only RSB-60 but also gravitational underwater shells 90R (with a homing system and an increased likelihood of damage) and SGPD type MG-94M. There is a Ka-27 helicopter.

Alas, the main means of detection - the MGK-335M GAK has a very weak energy and detection range even under normal conditions (much less than the distance of a torpedo salvo). In addition, the complex hydrology of the Mediterranean Sea raises the question of the need for towed antennas (which did not exist at all).

The only thing that could detect a submarine under the "jump" - lowered sonars (OGAS) of helicopters "Ros", however, this high-frequency OGAS has a short detection range and is the development of the late 70s of the Kiev Research Institute of Hydraulic Instruments (like the entire PPS "Octopus" Ka-27). The place of this hydroacoustics in the museum. And for a very long time.


Frigate of project 1356 (R) and GAK MGK-335ME.

The diesel-electric submarines Velikaya Novgorod and Kolpino had the MGK-400M SJC (domestic version with the letter B) and the Physik-1 torpedoes and the Vist-2 type SGPD.


Loading torpedoes "Physic-1" and missiles of the "Caliber" complex on diesel-electric submarines of project 03633.

The issue of hydroacoustics diesel-electric submarines of project 636 was discussed in detail in the article "Rubicon" of underwater confrontation. Successes and problems of the MGK-400 hydroacoustic complex ".

I would very much like to hope that our frigates and diesel-electric submarines deployed at sea acted together, covering each other, because when used separately, they were simply targets for enemy submarines. Alas, knowing the realities of the Russian Navy, there is good reason to doubt that the correct tactical option was adopted.

With separate actions of frigates and diesel-electric submarines, the critical problem of the "bare rear" both for Project 11356 (P) and for Project 06363 immediately arises. That is, a large "blind sector" in the stern (due to the limitations of the field of view of the main nasal antennas of these SACs).

Accordingly, the enemy submarine, having a significant lead in detection and good energy in torpedoes, can covertly shoot our ships, launching torpedoes by means of telecontrol into the "blind" aft sector.


This fact is obvious to any objective officer, specialist. But in the "valiant navy" they simply "hammered a bolt" on him. (War is not expected, is it? - Perhaps it is not expected. And everything is beautiful at parades).

The solution to this problem has been known for a long time - towed antennas, on which, however, we are very fond of saving money (despite the fact that there are such antennas, with very decent characteristics, and they have been repeatedly offered by the Navy industry).


Diesel-electric submarines of project 6363 with a towed antenna
(360-degree view with reliable early detection of torpedoes).

However, the enemy could attack with torpedoes and "head-on". Simply because neither frigates nor diesel-electric submarines could practically oppose anything to this. In view of the deliberately low effectiveness of anti-torpedo protection (PTZ) or their complete absence.

Readers may have a question, what is the author's confidence based on that in the event of the discovery of real hostilities, the John Warner submarine could reliably detect (and from a great distance) diesel-electric submarines of project 06363?

The answer is simple. In the zone of the deployed anti-submarine warfare system, diesel-electric submarines simply have no chance to remain stealthy and survive. They may have the most minimal noise, but they still need to charge the batteries, and then set up tracking for them (even after a dive) - a typical and long-established task of NATO anti-submarine forces. It will be necessary to “illuminate” the water area with low-frequency emitters, after which even the “blackest holes” become “flies on glass”.

We do not have such a system there, the “so-called partners” (quote from the words of V.V. Putin) have created it there a long time ago and are constantly being improved.

Our chances were only with the joint actions of diesel-electric submarines and frigates, where the SAC diesel-electric submarine would play the role of a large submersible (for the optimal search depth) antenna (in the interests of the entire connection) in combination with a "long arm" and telecontrol of torpedoes "Physicist-1".

Note. The issues of hydroacoustics and anti-submarine weapons of our ships have already been raised on Voennoye Obozreniye in the articles:
Anti-submarine defense: ships against submarines. Weapons and tactics " и
Anti-submarine defense: ships against submarines. Hydroacoustics".


The opponent was ready to fight, not bluffing


In the situation of April 2018, it is worth paying attention to the chronology and development of events.

New York, USA, 13 March 2018, 07:42 - Regnum. The United States of America is ready for another missile attack on Syria if it fails to achieve a ceasefire in Eastern Ghouta in the suburbs of Damascus, said US Permanent Representative to the UN Nikki Haley during a meeting of the Security Council.

Moscow's reaction was unusually tough. And not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but the Ministry of Defense. And personally to the Chief of the General Staff:

Moscow. March 13. Interfax-AVN. The Russian military will retaliate if a blow is struck against Damascus, said the chief of the Russian General Staff Valery Gerasimov.

"In the event of a threat to the life of our servicemen, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will take retaliatory measures against both missiles and delivery vehicles that will use them,"

He said in a conference call on Tuesday.

The conclusion suggests itself that the US Navy (and the John Warner submarine) actually had an order to use weapons on Russian Navy targets in the event of a strike on them (for example,

"Unknown anti-ship missiles from the coast of Syria").

This is clearly indicated by the fact that the US Navy withdrew all surface ships from the eastern Mediterranean (they were striking from the waters of the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf). The enemy is really very afraid of our anti-ship missiles.

The task "if anything" to attack our ships was set by the submarine John Warner. And she was ready to fulfill it. Anti-ship missiles "Harpoon" have long been removed from the US Navy PLA (and only recently began its return to the PLA ammunition). And the only weapons of the "sea battle" were the Mk48 torpedoes. Torpedoes are sophisticated, effective, and a favorite of the US Navy. And very well mastered.

The author is not ready to vouch for the figure he met on one of the American specialized forums. The combat torpedo hit the submarine's ammunition only after about 5 shots with it in a practical version. However, this is very similar to the truth.

The statistics of torpedo firing of the US Navy is simply enormous (annually, torpedoes are fired about ten times more than missiles). And the frankly "wounded" and "shabby" look of American torpedoes says that they were fired at many times (in a practical version).


Loading torpedo Mk48. A very "Bushny" type of torpedo is clearly visible.

Torpedoes in the US Navy are a reliable and mastered weapon in which both crews and command are confident (and which, despite this, is constantly being improved in key elements: homing and telecontrol systems).

We summarize.

The enemy was actually preparing to attack our ships and submarines. And attack with torpedoes.

And what can we counter the American torpedoes? Will those be released on our ships and submarines?

The state of the anti-torpedo protection of the Navy today


It makes no sense to consider old PTZ devices - drifting means of hydroacoustic counteraction (SGPD) MG-34 and GIP-1 (1967). Due to their absolute antiquity and inefficiency.

Project 11356 frigates have RBU-6000, with which it is theoretically possible to use PTZ MG-94M drifting instruments.


PTZ MG-94M device, start-up from RBU-6000.

Theoretically, not only because the PTZ ideas underlying the MG-94M device were outdated even before the start of its development, but also because information on the supply of the MG-94M to the Navy was never given on the government procurement website (in contrast to the supply of other devices, - "Whist-2" and "Blow-1"). Of course, it is possible that purchases for MG-94M were not made publicly available. However, it seems more likely that they simply did not exist.

The issue of using standard rocket depth charges RSB-60 with RBU-6000 for PTZ tasks in the Navy was developed a long time ago (included in the governing documents, is being worked out), but with models for the use of torpedoes that are completely different from real ones.

That is, those extremely low probabilities of destroying a torpedo, which are given for RBU-6000, are in fact much lower. Just because real torpedoes go

"Not there and not so",

as the developers of the RTZ RBU algorithms would like (in fact, they were developed against straight-going torpedoes during the Second World War).

At the same time, the author considers it necessary to note that in April 2013, the Navy submitted proposals for a promising complex of PTZ of surface ships with a combat effectiveness more than an order of magnitude higher than everything previously created on this topic (with the complex use of promising anti-torpedo only a separate ship, but also a formation or convoy).

The Navy's proposals were received with great interest (they were preserved at the Naval Academy). However, they were "buried" by intrigues in the defense industry system. Alas, it is no longer possible to fully implement them. Due to the departure in recent years from the life of a number of large domestic specialists (and bearers of a unique scientific and technical groundwork). For example, Myandina A.F.

Diesel-electric submarines of project 636 are armed with SGPD: drifting device PTZ "Vist-2" (developed and manufactured by JSC "Aquamarine") and self-propelled multipurpose device MG-74M (instead of the long-obsolete GIP-1, MG-34 and MG-74).


Drifting device "Whist" and self-propelled MG-74M.

The MG-74M device is an export product. And it is obvious that something else is intended for the Russian Navy. However, its main problem is that it was carried out in a caliber of 53 cm.That is, it requires a reduction in ammunition (despite the fact that the possibility of creating effective small-sized devices was confirmed by the results of our developments in the 80s) and the number of torpedo tubes with weapons.

Accordingly, "weapons are usually chosen."

Details on the Vist-2 drifting device were given in the documents of a number of state purchases (on the official portal), but the key is the following:

- "Vist" is a PTZ tool and does not have any effect on the operation of target designation means for weapons (in other words, via the telecontrol channel, the torpedo will confidently aim at our submarine according to the low-frequency SAC data).

- Against modern SSNs, the effectiveness of single drifting SGPDs is extremely low, and the group use of "Whists" is impossible due to the outdated logic of their work. (In fact, there will be a "dog wedding" - those staged by the "Vista" group will work on the first emitting device, and will "crush" themselves).

- The short operating time of "Vista" does not allow diesel-electric submarines to move to a safe distance.

According to one of the major domestic specialists in torpedo launchers, the "efficiency" (in quotation marks) of "Vista" is such that when discussing the organization of torpedo tests, he spoke about them literally:

“Let them do it!

It will be easier for us to aim at the target! "

And this man knew very well what modern CLOs were and what “Whist” was.

Let me emphasize that these are not some "technical secrets", this is "banal physics": the ideas underlying Whist correspond to torpedoes of the 90s of the last century. And since then, actually two generations of torpedo weapons have changed (MG-94M, in fact increased in size (for a larger caliber) and Vist energy, with the possibility of firing it from RBU-6000).

Even tougher assessments will be given below for the "faith, hope and perhaps" of the Russian Navy - the PTZ "Module-D" complex of the newest nuclear-powered ships of the 4th generation.

The question arises, how did "all this" go through the acceptance of draft, technical projects, testing, finally?

But so that we still have not carried out a single real test of new torpedoes against new AGPD (with imitation of actual combat conditions of use).

The only, but rather weak, exception is "Package".

Despite a number of its shortcomings, its torpedo (and its SSN) is really good and promising. And their results against "Vista" were such that the specialists of "Aquamarine", who liked to "trump" the results of using their products against the old torpedoes "Gidropribor". "For some reason" they do not like to recall the "Packet" test results.

Here a logical question arises, if the developer of the "Package" GNPP "Region" had the most perfect CLNs, then why did the specialists of the "Region" themselves not develop the SRS?

The terms of their development are relatively short, and large expenditures are not required. The topic is simply "golden" in terms of financial (including exports). And they offered to the leadership. Repeatedly. Without any consequences other than the phrase:

"Let anyone develop them, the" Region "SGPD will not develop them!"

Taking into account the fact that JSC "Aquamarine" considered the subject of the AGPD "its fiefdom", and the chief designer of the enterprise and the "regional" complex "Package", Drobot, was a member of its board of directors, the blocking of all proposals for the PSA in the "Region" is not surprising. In the smoking-room, the phrase sounded more than once or twice (and from different specialists):

"It sucks when your boss is on the board of a rival firm."

So easily the greed for profit destroys the country's defense ...

Note. It is necessary to emphasize both the really high technical level of Aquamarine's own developments and the fact that the company actively invested in the development of production. However, the willingness to "master funds" on openly dubious topics and requirements led to the fact that JSC "Aquamarine", which was once extremely active in the market and was engaged in PR, was eventually forced to completely curtail public activity (which now remained only in arbitration) ... Those who wish can "enjoy" (link)... Despite all the "dryness" of legal documents, the "seething rage" on the part of the Rubin Central Design Bureau towards Aquamarine is very well felt.

At the same time, experts spoke about these problems and warned them back in the early 2010s.

Undoubtedly, the positive aspect of this “legal stories"Is the tough position of the customer. The option "the third grade is not a marriage" did not work in this case. And the industry has learned a tough but necessary lesson for the future.

Briefly on underwater weapons (to a general understanding of the situation).

The best we have now is the Package. However, the extremely acute anti-torpedo problems for the Lasta submarines (and absolutely solvable ones) raise the question - is Packet all right?

In addition, despite the excellent anti-torpedo, there are still "holes" in the solution of the PTZ problem. The author considers it inappropriate to paint them publicly. However, they are quite obvious. And not only for specialists, but also for simply technically competent people.


Experts are advised to carefully study what the "Package" was supposed to be and how it turned out in the end. Carefully study, and start not even with the preliminary design of the ROC, but with the research work (R&D) that preceded it.

However, in the situation of 2018, the refusal of the naval command to transfer (and emergency transfer) corvettes of the project 20380 (with anti-torpedoes and low-frequency towed antennas) from the Baltic to the "hot eastern Mediterranean" is absolutely perplexing.

What, in general, are these corvettes doing in the Baltic? Are they waiting for shells from Polish land howitzers in Baltiysk?

Returning to the frigates of Project 11356 (P). And their anti-submarine torpedoes SET-65 have a primitive homing system (HSS) "Ceramics" ("reproduced on a domestic base" from the SSN American torpedo Mk46 mod.1 1961).

If someone from the pilots today offers to go into battle with missiles with homing heads during the Vietnam War, he will be sent to a psychiatrist. In the "valiant navy" this is the reality and the norm, even on the newest ships (for example, the Boreyas, on the torpedo decks of which there are ancient USETs with "Ceramics", "ripped off" from the American SSNs of development back in the late 50s).


Torpedo SET-65 and its control devices with mechanical spindle data input (Kiev Automation Plant)

In view of the extremely low noise immunity of the old types of SSNs of our torpedoes, there is no need to speak of any "effectiveness" in the situation when the enemy uses the SGPD.

The sad and harsh irony is that In the situation of 2018, the only really combat-ready model of underwater weapons, which actually posed a threat to the John Warner submarines, on the surface ships of our Mediterranean squadron was precisely the APR-2 "Hawk" (1978) of the helicopter ammunition. The rest of the torpedo ammunition was just "wood".


Aviation anti-submarine missile APR-2.

Well, all right, surface watermen. They were financed in the Navy for a very long time on the basis of the "leftover principle." But how is the "faith, hope and perhaps" the Navy - a nuclear submarine?

What will happen if for the anti-submarine defense of our Mediterranean squadron to attract the newest APRK "Severodvinsk" project 885 "Ash"?

And it will be even worse than with 06363.

For with all the shortcomings of the "Vista", they can do something (especially if they are "used outside the box"), and the SSN's visibility for the SSN torpedo is much less than that of the huge nuclear submarine "Severodvinsk".

All this is true for the serial PTZ for the same "Varshavyanka".

And what about advanced systems?

That's how.

"There is a cow ... Here on these" crap "the torpedo will come out on it." Or "anti-torpedo pit" "Module-D"


"Marine collection" No. 7, 2010, from an article by Rear Admiral A.N. Lutsky:

Submarines under construction of the Yasen and Borey projects are proposed to be equipped with PTZ systems, technical specifications for the development of which were drawn up back in the 80s of the last century, the results of studies of the effectiveness of these means against modern torpedoes indicate an extremely low probability of not hitting an evading submarine.


Rear Admiral A.N. Lutsky, an article in the "Marine Collection" and products of the "Module-D" complex

In the article in the "Marine Collection" the name of this complex was not named, however, in subsequent years, enough open and public materials appeared that allowed not only to name it ("Module-D"), but also to reveal all the rotten organization of work on this topic in the defense industry complex. Navy and Ministry of Defense.

It all started with the US Navy.

The Mk48 torpedo had not only excellent characteristics, but also (in the first modifications) a number of serious problematic issues. One of them was a significant time of the exhibition of a precision navigation control system (necessary for effective firing at long distances), similar to those for missiles with an inertial control system developed in the late 60s - early 70s.

Taking into account the real detection distances of our submarines, the situation was such that at the time of the capture of the American SSN submarine of the salvo of our torpedoes quickly fired from the torpedo launchers on duty, the magnificent American Mk48 still “twisted gyroscopes” in the tubes of the TA, and it was it is impossible.

The US Navy did not want to abandon effective long-range shooting (that is, strict requirements for the accuracy of gyroscopes). The solution for them was the SGPD. First - onboard jamming devices. However, their effectiveness in this situation was reminiscent of "Russian roulette" (which the rational Anglo-Saxons did not accept with all their gut).

Further - there were powerful fired jamming devices from outboard launchers (to ensure a quick response). Moreover, it was necessary to suppress not only the CLS of torpedoes, but also the GAS (GAK) targeting them (which was implemented in separate low-frequency and high-frequency devices).


It is necessary to note the extremely high efficiency of their combined use against most GAS and naval torpedoes in the 80s. However, the key technical condition for their effectiveness was the imperfection of the then massive GAS and SSN torpedoes of the Navy (taking into account the significant level of "side lobes" of the directional patterns and the small dynamic range of our analog hydroacoustics of that time).

At the same time, already in the 80s, samples of digital GAS appeared, against which the idea of ​​using a pair of low-frequency and high-frequency drifting devices already obviously did not work. However, the specialists of the Navy and SPBM "Malakhit", who seized on the "American idea", decided to "improve" it by "adding energy."

They sharply increased the caliber of devices (from American ones), and most importantly, they introduced explosive sound sources (VIZ) as emitters for a low-frequency device ("Oplot"), as the most advantageous in terms of energy. The most "sad-funny" thing is that in the corresponding works of American specialists it was directly written why it should not be done this way.

Separately, it is necessary to dwell on the device for suppressing communication channels "Burak-M" (about which our "cheap mass media" wrote with admiration not so long ago). The RSAB communication channel is simple (more precisely, it was simple before, but now the situation is changing). And really effectively and simply "chokes" on the means of electronic warfare.

The "probable enemy" has shown us (our naval aviation) this more than once or twice since the 70s. Such devices for our submarine could dramatically increase its combat stability - a relatively simple fired electronic warfare station provided a real multiple increase in the likelihood of evasion of the USSR Navy submarines from the US and NATO anti-submarine aircraft.

From the technical point of view, everything was clear, simple and understandable. It was necessary to “just do”. And so that these massive and cheap electronic warfare devices could be equipped with all submarines of the USSR Navy - from 941 to 613 projects.

Instead, a bunch of research projects were written, a bunch of dissertations were defended, and a similar "scientific fuss" was conducted. The fact that our submariners, who were virtually defenseless against anti-submarine aircraft, still need to be given something effective, "naval thought" (gradually turning into a "cramp") came only at the end of the 80s.

But in a completely "creative design" - as an integral part of the "Modul-D" design and development project, with extremely expensive electronic warfare devices (that is, without the possibility of their real development and testing during combat training) and only for new generation 4 nuclear submarines (with unique launchers ).

And the rest of the SPs?

They were "out of luck."

From the anniversary edition “KMPO Gidropribor - 75 years in service the fleet and fatherland ":

In 1993–2016. within the framework of the ROC, a set of drifting instruments was created for arming submarines. The following products have been developed:

• "Oplot" - a drifting device for counteracting submarine hydroacoustic detection systems.
• "Udar-1" - a submarine drifting anti-torpedo protection device.
• "Burak-M" - a drifting electronic suppression device for enemy aircraft surveillance.

The aim of the work was to solve a complex of problems of countering submarines to means of detecting and destroying anti-submarine forces.

The developed products should be in service with submarines of modern projects.

The devices developed within the framework of the Modul-D ROC had a number of previously unused technical solutions: for the first time in our country, VIZ (Oplot) were used as sources of acoustic interference, means of countering radio communication channels (Burak-M) were developed ,a drifting device capable of occupying a given working depth ("Shock-1") was created.


The presence of the Modul-D launchers on the Borey (A) missile launcher was also directly indicated in the public materials of the Ministry of Defense. For example, at the Army-2015 forum.


Arbitration court of the city of St. Petersburg and the Leningrad region
February 6, 2018. Case No. A56-75962 / 2017 Joint Stock Company St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau Malakhit (hereinafter - the plaintiff) filed a claim with the Arbitration Court of the city of St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region to recover from the Joint Stock Company Concern Marine Underwater Weapons - Gidropribor "(hereinafter referred to as the defendant) forfeits ... the parties concluded an agreement dated June 25.06.1993, 10313 No. 93/193 / 93-1 to carry out development work on the" Impact-XNUMX "theme.

That is, the head of the "Module-D" is SPBMT "Malakhit" (as the head organization for complexes of underwater weapons and self-defense in the Russian Federation).


It is interesting to compare the specialists of "Malachite" with their "creation" with the C303 / S complex (Italy, Whitehead, link).

The known launcher of a submarine anti-torpedo protection system C303 / S ... is a multi-barreled sealed module, located outside the strong hull of the submarine.

The standard configuration assumes the presence of up to 12 barrels in the module, at the same time, the number of barrels in the module and the number of modules can be changed to meet the requirements of the submarine design ...

The disadvantages are:

- limited functionality and operational characteristics due to the impossibility of servicing and repairing electronic warfare devices loaded into the launcher barrels;

- low protection of electronic warfare devices from external influences, in particular from the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion;

- a long cycle of preparation for firing due to the time spent on moving the launcher out of the light body space.

In addition, the extension of the launcher from the space of the light hull degrades the vibroacoustic characteristics of the submarine.

At the same time, unlike its western counterpart (C-303S), the Malachite launcher is not capable of salvo use and excludes the use of “long” products (self-propelled with high performance). That is, it has a deliberately unsatisfactory efficiency. And therefore it cannot provide effective counteraction to modern torpedoes.

Single drifting devices, even extremely powerful ones, are not able today to provide effective counteraction to modern torpedoes.

The phrase said by a specialist about the anti-torpedo "efficiency" (in quotes) of the "Module-D":

"There is a" cow "... Here on these" cakes "the torpedo will come out on her!"

They know about this situation all specialists and bosses. It is for this reason that everything was done to exclude the possibility of testing it against modern torpedoes, despite the disrupted development timeframe for Modul-D (one of the pretexts for this is the very high cost of Modul products and, accordingly, tests).

The author personally raised this question (within the framework of the State tests of the Severodvinsk agro-industrial complex) before the head of the EW service of the Navy in August 2013. For some reason, this did not arouse interest. All tests of "Modul-D" were carried out mainly in "light mode" with the exception of the use of new modern torpedoes.

However, things are much worse with Modul-D.

For "Modul-D" really in battle could not effectively counteract the old types of torpedoes.

On human conscience and anti-torpedo protection


The description of "epic feats" (in quotes, the word "mistakes" is clearly not for this case) by its developers is a vivid example of how rotten the system of development and testing of naval submarine weapons of the Navy is.

So, with the aim of repeatedly exceeding the energy of the interference in the "Oplot", VIZ was applied. Advertising pictures were spectacular (Mr. Mavrodi with MMM would have envied too).

However, only people (bosses) can be deceived, but not technology and physics. And physics gave this "knockdown" to the developers of "Module-D". In 2004 and (as can be seen from the public link to a scientific publication) at the Ladoga training ground "Gidropribor".


That is, the spectrum of the explosion of the VIZ low-frequency device "Oplot" with the VIZ confidently and reliably enters the operating band of the high-frequency counter-torpedo device "Udar-1".

Whom will “Blow” crush?

That's right - your own "Oplot"!

What did you think about before and “where did you look”?

And they looked, for example, in "learned books", where everything was "fine":


Simply, either the receiving hydrophone was taken with a "cut strip", or it was placed at a distance (aside). And the high-frequency signal faded before it.

What happened next, it would be correct to call

"A fire in a brothel behind closed doors."

After the tests of 2004, the complete inoperability of the Modul-D complex for its main purpose was absolutely clear to the developers. However, the topic was funded by the customer (and funded well)!

And in this situation, the developers of moral qualities for an objective report on the problems, to put it mildly, were not found. They tried to “cure” the problem (presenting and “treating” “sepsis” as a “runny nose”). This also had public echoes in the open special press (“a dissertation is sacred,” therefore, the statistics of VAK publications are also needed).


Of course, there are no "terrible words" "torpedo", "SGPD" in it ("secrecy is above all"!). However, everything is clear from the meaning of the article.

In addition, the cipher of the universal decimal classification (UDC) is 623.628. At the same time, the "neighbors" of the specified UDC are: 623.623 - weapon systems (complexes) for jamming radio and radar systems, 623.624: countering radio-electronic means, 623.626 - protection of systems for combating enemy radio-electronic means, methods and means of protection.

But, perhaps, these employees of SPBMT "Malachite" are simply in

"Weekend come up with something on abstract topics"?

Just "for myself", "patent office", dissertations, etc.?

However, let us turn again to the materials of the arbitration courts ( link):

Case No. 2-45 / 13 dated January 24, 2013.
Having considered in open court a civil case on the claim Borodavkina A.N., Andreeva S.Yu., Kurnosova A.A. to OJSC SPBMT Malakhit on compulsion to conclude an agreement, established:

JSC SPMBM "Malakhit" is a patent holder of service inventions,

...patents for which he received as part of the work on the state defense order.
The authors of the invention "Submarine Launcher", patent of the Russian Federation No. dated (date) are the employees of JSC SPMBM "Malakhit" (patent holder) - Borodavkin A.N., Kurnosov A.A., Nikolaev V.F., Andreev S.Yu.

Plaintiff Borodavkin A.N. filed a lawsuit against the defendant OJSC SPMBM "Malakhit" for coercion to conclude agreements on the payment of remuneration for the use of patents on the proposed terms. In support of the claim, pointing out that after receiving the patents, the defendant suggested that he conclude an agreement on the procedure for paying the author <data taken> rubles against remuneration for the use of his invention.

The plaintiff, disagreeing with the proposed amount of payment, sent the defendant his version of the revision of the controversial clauses of the agreement on the amount and procedure for payment of remuneration, setting them out in memos dated (date) and (date), the answer to which had not been received until the filing of the claim ...

Plaintiff Borodavkin A.N. believes that the amount of remuneration indicated by the defendant in the amount of <data taken> rubles does not correspond to the real remuneration, and therefore asks the court to compel JSC SPMBM "Malakhit" to conclude agreements with him on payment of royalties for the use of patents on the terms proposed by him, namely - payment to the author for each fact of using his invention, including cases of assignment of a patent to third parties, remuneration in the amount of 4% of the share of the cost of productionattributable to this invention, and in the event that the patent holder concludes a license agreement by paying the plaintiff royalties in the amount of 20% of the proceeds from the sale of the license without limiting the maximum remuneration, indicating that the defendant must inform the plaintiff about each fact of using the invention.

In the course of pre-trial preparation in the case, the court attracted all the co-authors of the controversial service inventions to participate in the consideration of the dispute as third parties, of which the authors Andreev S.Yu. and A.A. Kurnosov. independent claims were announced to compel JSC SPMBM "Malakhit" to conclude controversial contracts on conditions similar to those of the plaintiff.

During the consideration of the case, the parties presented a draft agreement on the payment and amount of remuneration.

Actually, we have a clear confirmation that the above launcher of countermeasures was developed within the SDO and is being implemented in series. Where and in what complex is obvious.

At the same time, despite the fact that this complex was deliberately incapable of solving the main task for its intended purpose, its developers had enough "conscience" (in quotes) not only to continue the "development" of considerable budget billions, they "had enough" to demand it for this I also "drank" rewards for myself.

But

"The sawmill continued to whistle."

Realizing that with the Udar-Oplot combination it turned out “somehow really bad”, the “creative group of persons” from “Malachite” (and another creative organization) decided to “change the scenery”.

"I'll just leave it here".

(Screen from forum forums.airbase.ru).


So our "anti-torpedo MMM-shchiki" finally realized that the single devices were "somehow outdated" (it came down - with a delay of a quarter of a century).

As a result, we are already witnessing a group application of devices very similar to Vista (with a “hood” to provide acoustic isolation between the receiving and emitting parts). "Efficiency" (in quotes), like "Leni Golubkov's" (modeling "really showed"). Bingo! You can open a new OCD for billions more (and you must not forget yourself in it):

"Payment to the author for each fact of use ... remuneration in the amount of 4% of the share of the cost of production attributable to this invention."

Just a very simple technical question.

Taking into account the broadbandness of the new torpedo SSNs in the receiving part of the PTZ devices, it is necessary to lower the "threshold" (signal / noise ratio), with the subsequent triggering of one device on interference and the "dog wedding" of all the others already fired at it.

And the attacking torpedo and its SSN?

And on her (taking into account the real distance of interaction), this "dog wedding" of the GSPD will have practically no effect. The new CCHs have a high resistance to interference, the bandwidth is wide using various complex signals, and it will normally be guided to our submarine.

I repeat once again that what is written above is not some kind of "revelation." This is the elementary physics of the process. And this was discussed by experts. And including with the persons indicated in the patent 10-15 years ago.

A devastating result for the Russian Navy


In fact, the PTZ of the Navy is simply absent.

И moreover, with the existing organization of work there are no prospects for solving this problem.


And this is not only a failure at the tactical, but also at the strategic level, at the level of strategic nuclear forces. For the key requirement for NSNF is combat stability. And with the indicated problems of PTZ, no "Bulava" and "Sineva" have any sense (unless they have just been "handed over to the diocese" of the Strategic Missile Forces). "Borey-Bulava: the volley is gone, but hard questions remain".

The mastering of anti-torpedoes “Lasta” by our submarine has been disrupted. Rear-Admiral Lutsky wrote above about the extremely low efficiency of the "Module-D" complex (declared on the "Boreys", according to the official information of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on "Army-2015").

Moreover, under a far-fetched pretext, self-propelled anti-torpedo protection devices were removed from the ammunition of the naval submarines (including the NSNF) (already available and showing efficiency).

And here I would like to cite, for comparison, the approach to solving such problems, which was practiced in the Ground Forces.

“It all started with the fact that in Chechnya, while carrying out a combat mission, a soldier protected by a bulletproof vest was killed by a bandit's pistol bullet.

A bandyuk was shooting from a Makarov, but according to all calculations, a bulletproof vest cannot be pierced with this weapon.

Counterintelligence drew attention to this and reported to the General Staff.

General of the Army Yuri Baluyevsky, who was at that time the chief of the General Staff, instructed his deputy, General Alexander Skvortsov, to check what was going on.

Skvortsov took a choice of several armored vehicles from a large batch, which was supplied by the Artess company, and went to the training ground, where he himself shot the vests.

Bullets pierced armor like tissue paper.

After that, the general went to the firm to check the quality of the goods on the spot.

He was given a control body armor from a huge batch - 500 pieces.

Oddly enough, this product turned out to be of high quality - its plates consisted of all the required 30 layers of the so-called ballistic fabric (or Kevlar). And the bullets did not pierce him.

When the general himself chose several bulletproof vests for testing, everything became clear: some did not even have 15 layers of Kevlar ...

After that, the Investigative Committee under the Prosecutor's Office (UPC) of the Russian Federation joined the case. "

What to do?

First of all, to begin to carry out objective tests, comprehensive testing of new CLOs and SRS. The technical groundwork, there are specialists for this.

Moreover, I repeat, we have worked out really breakthrough proposals on this topic.

The question is in the tough formulation of the task - the fleet, the NSNF must have effective anti-torpedo protection! And it will be done, and in a very short time.
In the meantime, here's what we have ( link):

“Throughout the entire campaign of our carrier group in 2016, there was not a single ship with modern anti-submarine weapons in the guard of Kuznetsov. And the maneuvering of our ships ... at the sight of foreign submarines operating in the same place.

Moreover, even in the conditions of a sharp aggravation of relations with Turkey at the end of 2015, the Navy did nothing to provide real anti-submarine support for its forces off the coast of Syria - and this is taking into account direct statements by Ankara that our ships, including the cruiser Moskva, are at gunpoint Turkish submarines.

The phrase of a high-ranking naval officer who did a lot to increase the real combat capability of the fleet:

"Until Moscow becomes Cheonan, nothing will change here."


Cheonan is a South Korean naval corvette torpedoed by a DPRK midget submarine in 2010.

And "Moscow" is a cruiser. Our.


Author:
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  1. paco.soto
    paco.soto 8 March 2021 05: 31
    +53
    I read it carefully. Unusual material for VO by its critical point of view.
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 8 March 2021 05: 56
      +59
      Quote: paco.soto
      I read it carefully. Unusual material for VO by its critical point of view.

      Colleague, similar critical articles have already been on the VO and we must give the authors credit for their critical approach and coverage of the real situation of the fleet.
      Thanks to the author for an excellent and detailed article.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 8 March 2021 07: 34
        +21
        ... Grouping of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean at this moment included warships: two frigates of project 11356 (P) "Admiral Grigorovich" and "Admiral Essen" and two diesel-electric submarines of project 06363 "Nizhny Novgorod" and "Kolpino", which on the eve of the coalition strike went to sea

        I thought we had an impressive force there (in the Mediterranean), but it turned out to be an ideal target.

        On the site I regularly hear exclamations that they say the tsar raised the army to incredible heights. Even cooler than in the USSR! And the other day there was an article, it literally wrote that the Americans cannot compete with advanced Russian weapons. But in fact it turns out, if a mess happens, then our fleet will tolerate Tsushima once again.
        1. Bashkirkhan
          Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 07: 42
          -30%
          Quote: Stas157
          But in fact it turns out, if a mess happens, then our fleet will tolerate Tsushima once again.

          There will be no Tsushima because there is no fleet. Klimov needs more pictures for the article.
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 8 March 2021 08: 35
            +13
            Quote: Bashkirkhan
            There will be no Tsushima because no fleet.

            Four fleets and a flotilla. 150 thousand people. The fleet participated in both 1 and 2 Chechen companies, in 080808, in the annexation of the Crimea, in Syria ... As we can see, not a single armed conflict can do without the fleet. But, is he ready to participate in a conflict with a serious adversary? Great question.
            1. Bashkirkhan
              Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 09: 10
              +1
              Quote: Stas157
              But, is he ready to participate in a conflict with a serious adversary? Great question.

              For the last 200 years, the Russian fleet has not traditionally been ready, in fact, nothing has changed. The same commies hammered into the infrastructure necessary for the functioning of the fleet. And how the ships were handed over to the fleet. In the USSR, the "Udaloy" bpk was handed over without an air defense system. Those were the times! A ship with "temporary" radars and no air defense systems at all! And in combat service in the Mediterranean. In general, they did not soar about finishing the ships, there was a tradition for the next congress of the party to shove the unprepared ship to the navy. Now, in the 20s of the 21st century, there is nowhere to dock a heavy nuclear cruiser in the Northern Fleet.
              Admiral Nakhimov could be brought into the Sevmash filling pool only on the stoves, as in the XNUMXth century.
              1. ramzay21
                ramzay21 9 March 2021 00: 44
                +16
                Do not slander the Soviet Navy, its remnants, even now, 30 years later, are the basis of our Navy. In 1991, only TWO aircraft carriers were under construction, including one nuclear, two missile cruisers, including one nuclear, 10 destroyers and BOD, 11 SSBNs and 18 multipurpose nuclear submarines and 7 diesel-electric submarines. Moreover, the Pike submarines were built faster than salmon.

                As for the BOD Udaloy, which you always cite as an example, he did not go to the BS alone with these flaws, his task was PLO, which he did perfectly, and other ships provided air defense. These Soviet BODs are some of the most reliable ships in our Navy today.
                1. Bashkirkhan
                  Bashkirkhan 9 March 2021 06: 49
                  -13%
                  Remember K-19 as a vivid example of the work of the state admissions committee and the acceptance of the ship for the holiday of the Great October Revolution!
                  1. Essex62
                    Essex62 9 March 2021 09: 21
                    +2
                    The Soviet Navy was the most powerful tool in the confrontation with rotten capitalism. The tasks of ensuring the throw to the English Channel and
                    Portuguese beaches he was ready to fulfill to the fullest. Another thing is that the aged leadership was not able to make tough decisions, although the armor and other shock systems continued to rivet by inertia. It is not clear why, taking resources from scarce consumer goods. That, in the end, backfired with flowers and the restoration of capitalism.
          2. APASUS
            APASUS 8 March 2021 11: 59
            +14
            Quote: Bashkirkhan
            Quote: Stas157
            But in fact it turns out, if a mess happens, then our fleet will tolerate Tsushima once again.

            There will be no Tsushima because there is no fleet. Klimov needs more pictures for the article.

            And what does this prove, I want to ask the author?
            These Russians will do something all the time


            this is the American "littoral" battleship LCS 1 Freedom in San Diego, 19.02.2016 (c) ecoronado.com.
            Her, well, Americans can
            1. Bashkirkhan
              Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 12: 06
              +8
              Quote: APASUS
              Her, well, Americans can

              There are no specialists capable of competently servicing boiler and turbine installations in the Russian Navy. Because "Admiral Kuznetsov" and smokes. LCS 1 Freedom lives in San Diego by the way, and our admirals sent a knowingly faulty aircraft carrier to Syria for the amusement of the public.
              Watch the Vladivostok news, people are frightened by the smoke from the destroyer 956.
              1. APASUS
                APASUS 8 March 2021 18: 12
                +4
                Quote: Bashkirkhan
                There are no specialists capable of competently servicing boiler and turbine plants in the Russian Navy

                There it must be admitted that the boilers are practically out of order.
                Quote: Bashkirkhan
                LCS 1 Freedom lives in San Diego,

                And what, it gives the right to misuse the Rolls-Royce MT30 GTE?
                Quote: Bashkirkhan
                Watch the Vladivostok news, people are frightened by the smoke from the destroyer 956.

                Watch the news of San Diego, there the people were also not happy. Paradox is not it, should have rejoiced?
                1. Bashkirkhan
                  Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 18: 40
                  +5
                  At the Admiral Kuznetsov there are high-pressure boilers, where the water quality standards were approximately the same as on the nuclear submarine, plus the problem of deoxygenating the feed water. Oxygen in feed water leads to intercrystalline corrosion. All this requires a good organization of water treatment on a steamer and knowledge of materiel. The problem with the quality of feed water arose during the period of democratic reforms, primarily due to the outflow of qualified specialists. Moreover, for the training of new specialists, the educational institution had to have a complete boiler and turbine unit so that officers could work out emergency situations on it and study properly. Naturally, this setup for training was not and is not. As a result, the iron has not forgiven its negligence. For this reason, by the way, now all 956 destroyers are not operational. And in the USA, in addition to littoral ships, destroyers of the "Arleigh Burke" type are being massively built, which are in service.
                  1. dgonni
                    dgonni 8 March 2021 23: 52
                    +1
                    The problem of Kuzi and 956 did not arise from the moment of preparation. And from the moment of the project itself. When this system was not built into the ship!
                    Well, the most ignorant of those who were dumb to take to the atomic ones were weeded out on the kotlotoyurbinki.
                    Where the commanders of the ships took the smart red-faced lietenants, the 956es went!
                    Only at the Pacific Fleet with deployment and housing, not everything was gut.
                    Well, even if the commando BCH-5 is a pro and picked up a normal command? That tube for replacement in bunches of sensible horseradish after 86 was found. From what the navy gave.
                    I personally had to go to the plant and choose and then accompany whatever got to the ship!
                    1. Cympak
                      Cympak 9 March 2021 15: 01
                      +1
                      But 4 destroyers 956E / ME, sold to China, are still in service and are even undergoing major modernization and rearmament.
                  2. Oden280
                    Oden280 9 March 2021 17: 44
                    +2
                    The problem of ships built in the USSR, not only Kuzi and 956, but also all the others, is routine maintenance, medium repairs, overhauls that were not completed in time. Skipping any of these events increases the cost of repairs at times. Added to this is the lack of spare parts and funds for repairs. ZiPs for 956 were chosen by the mid-90s. Then they were engaged in cannibalization, including for Kuzi. Their boilers are almost the same. The tubes fit exactly.
                  3. Andrey Mishin
                    Andrey Mishin 10 March 2021 03: 19
                    0
                    Water quality is a separate issue, and smoke is not caused by water quality, but by malfunctioning fuel injectors and / or automatic fuel / air ratio. These are elementary questions for a specialist.
                2. kig
                  kig 9 March 2021 03: 46
                  +1
                  Quote: APASUS
                  And what, it gives the right to misuse the Rolls-Royce MT30 GTE?

                  Judging by the photo, Freedom is either entering or exiting the port, and in this case, his diesel engines are working. Their gas turbine engine is not marching.
                  1. APASUS
                    APASUS 9 March 2021 08: 40
                    +2
                    Quote: kig
                    Judging by the photo, Freedom is either entering or exiting the port, and in this case, his diesel engines are working. Their gas turbine engine is not marching.

                    In one photo it is generally standing at the pier. The command of the Navy unsubscribed that they were warming up the gas turbine engine, which is actually not clear. If it is a diesel engine, then it is not at all clear what they did with them.
            2. Sirocco
              Sirocco 8 March 2021 13: 59
              -16%
              I look at the VO has become a hotbed of a kick to open the door both to the General Staff and to the secret enterprises of the Russian Federation)))) some experts, probably the CIA from here takes all the classified information
              1. Bashkirkhan
                Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 15: 24
                -1
                Quote: Sirocco
                I look at VO has become a hotbed of a kick to open the door both to the General Staff and to the secret enterprises of the Russian Federation

                Yes of course. Educate the population about the level of defense capability.
            3. kig
              kig 9 March 2021 03: 52
              +4
              Quote: APASUS
              Her, well, Americans can

              This is if you do not take into account the fact that Kuznetsov was constantly smoking, on the way and back and forth, and in the photo there is an isolated case that happens to everyone. Although Freedom, of course, turned out to be problematic.
        2. Eldorado
          Eldorado 8 March 2021 12: 11
          0
          The strength in Mediterranean is truly impressive.
          But the danger for us comes from under the water. Our Navy should not be afraid of aircraft carriers and destroyers, but amers' submarines.
          1. timokhin-aa
            9 March 2021 10: 36
            +6
            Submarines are their main striking force.
        3. ccsr
          ccsr 8 March 2021 12: 52
          -28%
          Quote: Stas157
          On the site I regularly hear exclamations that they say the tsar raised the army to incredible heights. Even cooler than in the USSR! And the other day there was an article, it literally wrote that the Americans cannot compete with advanced Russian weapons. But in fact it turns out, if a mess happens, then our fleet will tolerate Tsushima once again.

          What kind of "mess" are we talking about - you can decide for yourself to begin with?
          Do you seriously believe that the Americans are ready to attack us with torpedo weapons, as Klimov says "thoughtfully":
          Torpedoes in the US Navy are a reliable and mastered weapon in which both crews and command are confident (and which, despite this, is constantly being improved in key elements: homing and telecontrol systems).
          We summarize.
          The enemy was actually preparing to attack our ships and submarines. And attack with torpedoes.
          And what can we counter the American torpedoes? Will those be released on our ships and submarines?

          Well, how does Klimov know what was planned in the American headquarters, and where is that red line in the heads of their presidents, after which there is a nuclear war?
          Remember how in Yugoslavia only the seizure of the airfield by special forces and the paratrooper march completely solved the problem of the Third World War - none of the top NATO officers even thought to attack this tiny group with light weapons, because they knew what could follow.
          And Klimov is telling us nonsense that with a torpedo attack by the Americans, they will immediately force Russia to surrender and the end will come to us, because we will not be able to repel the attack with torpedoes and destroy this nuclear submarine. I have never heard more foolishness from the naval officers, they probably never will think of why the Americans so cowardly left our territorial waters just recently, when our ship only indicated a move towards the intruder. The point is that not a single commander of an American ship will ever, at his discretion, act against Russia and against its armed forces, no matter what the situation may be. It is from this that we must proceed, and not be hysterical about the torpedo armament of our ships, if only because we are unlikely to have to use them in the course of the war with the United States.
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 8 March 2021 19: 01
            +17
            Quote: ccsr
            Are you serious you believethat the Americans are ready to attack us with torpedo weapons

            About faith... Are you a military man or a pop?
            A military man should not rely on faith. He should be prepared for any outcome of the situation. Is our fleet ready for this?

            Quote: ccsr
            and where is that Red line

            Where is Red line already roughly known. It turns out that non-nuclear countries can easily shoot down an aircraft from one nuclear power. Or a helicopter. Everyone is satisfied with the tomato answer.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 8 March 2021 20: 42
              -13%
              Quote: Stas157
              About faith. Are you a military man or a pop?

              Are you able to adequately assess threats, or not?
              Quote: Stas157
              A military man should not rely on faith.

              A military man should first of all think, and not buy into cheap slogans, even if they come from a retired captain of the third rank.

              Quote: Stas157
              He should be prepared for any outcome of the situation.

              Can you still offer our armed forces preparing for an alien attack today?
              Quote: Stas157
              It turns out that non-nuclear countries can easily shoot down an aircraft from one nuclear power.

              We, too, overwhelmed a civilian Boeing during the Soviet era, and some American planes were forced to land on our territory, and now because of this, the third world war was supposed to begin?

              Quote: Stas157
              Everyone is satisfied with the tomato answer.

              Are you suggesting that Turkey, a NATO member, should have been destroyed with a nuclear strike?
              Calm down your ego - not all of our politicians have the roof yet to unleash a nuclear war upon the shooting down of our plane in a STRANGE country.
              Quote: Stas157
              Where the red line runs is already roughly known.

              Here it is necessary to follow her, this is enough to make timely decisions to destroy the enemy. By the way, you have evaded the definition of "turmoil" - what is it, educate the public.
            2. Departure
              Departure 10 March 2021 08: 04
              +1
              For some reason, neither you nor your opponent remembered about the torpedoing of Kursk by Memphis and the subsequent sad events, a detailed analysis of a hole in the side with curved edges, analyzes such as a torpedo on various forums, which pierced the hull and then "drained" this case on the brakes. This is not a question of faith for a long time, but a question of confidence and the problem was already long before Syria. Why did everything stay the same? Because no one in our leadership is going to fight the Americans (this is my version, and yours?) And everything will remain in this state for a very long time. Why isn't he going to? You will find the answer to this question for yourself.
              1. dvina71
                dvina71 10 March 2021 15: 46
                +2
                Quote: departure
                For some reason, neither you nor your opponent remembered about torpedoing Kursk by Memphis

                Because it was not there .. There are no torpedoes "piercing" the skin .. Previously, they were with a contact fuse, now mostly remote .. This is how the maximum effect of the high-explosive charge of the torpedo is achieved ..
                I read .. comments and see what minus and what plus .. The question in my head .. where did I end up?
                On the way .. I need to tie it up with the topvar ... getting closer to the trash heap ..
              2. timokhin-aa
                11 March 2021 19: 36
                -1
                For some reason, neither you nor your opponent remembered about the torpedoing of Kursk by Memphis and the subsequent sad events, a detailed analysis of a hole in the side with curved edges, analyzes such as a torpedo in various forums, which pierced the hull and then "drained" this case on the brakes.


                This was not Memphis
                The hole in the side is not from the torpedo
                Torpedoes do not pierce the hull.
          2. dgonni
            dgonni 9 March 2021 00: 04
            +2
            If you are in the know, then give a purely for yourself an answer to one question! And why? The mattresses have been attended to by yalery charges with a small weighed amount!
            And all questions will disappear by themselves!
            This means that the underwater component is at a glance, and it makes no sense to beat everything else with modern precision with megaton ammunition!
            Everything else is from the evil one.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 29
              -1
              Quote: dgonni
              And why? The mattresses have been attended to by yalery charges with a small weighed amount!

              So they are already planning to be the first to use low-power charges against weak countries - this will save them from their own losses, and reduce the cost of a military campaign. Moreover, the result is instantaneous - not a single state in the world, after several nuclear strikes on the capital, will be able to organize resistance to the Americans, and the bombing of Belgrade twenty years ago proved this. But then the bombing dragged on, and this negatively affected the results of the entire war, and the downed American planes were inappropriate. That is why the Americans are so diligently leading the whole world to the idea that nuclear weapons can be used against countries with weapons of mass destruction - this happened with both Saddam and Assad.
            2. frog
              frog 9 March 2021 17: 01
              0
              You will not wait for an answer. In Derzhavin's version, it does not exist, and these do not provide for others.
          3. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 9 March 2021 18: 56
            -2
            Quote: ccsr
            What kind of "mess" are we talking about - you can decide for yourself to begin with?
            Do you seriously believe that the Americans are ready to attack us with torpedo weapons, as Klimov says "thoughtfully":

            And with what weapon did the Turks shoot down our Su-24?
            And also about a couple of Mi-24s and a couple of Mi-8s - shot down.
            Ka-52, as far as the information reports, was also shot down. And so the pilots died.
            And also about almost a dozen aircraft, which are considered "non-combat" losses.
            7 pilots died in Syria ... Did you know about this? Why did they die?

            What weapon was used to shoot down Mi-24 in Artsakh?

            Who is doing all this?
            Why is he not afraid of the dreaded Russian Nuclear Weapons?

            And the most important thing is that no retaliation followed in any case ...
            Except the tomato war ...
            by the way ...
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 9 March 2021 20: 12
              -2
              Quote: SovAr238A
              And with what weapon did the Turks shoot down our Su-24?

              We had a war with Turkey? I have not heard of this, otherwise Turkey might no longer exist.
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Ka-52, as far as the information reports, was also shot down. And so the pilots died.

              Do you know how many of our pilots died in Korea, Vietnam, Egypt, Afghanistan and in a number of other countries, when they were carrying out missions as part of the delivery of goods?
              What did we need to launch a nuclear strike against the United States immediately after their deaths?
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Why is he not afraid of the dreaded Russian Nuclear Weapons?

              The main thing is that the Americans are afraid of him, and their mongrels know that we will not use nuclear weapons if we do not attack our Motherland. That is why they arrange provocations, but even the "brave" Ukrainians have never shelled our territory - why would you not know?
              Quote: SovAr238A
              And the most important thing is that no retaliation followed in any case ...

              This is a payback for the fact that we are trying to get in everywhere, although I personally do not think that we are obliged to be in Syria.
            2. House 25 Sq. 380
              House 25 Sq. 380 10 March 2021 18: 54
              -1
              Pakistan, then, go, with South Korea, South Africa, Israel and China has long been erased from the world map by the Soviet Yao, or not?
          4. alexander ivanov_9
            alexander ivanov_9 April 7 2021 04: 54
            -1
            ------------ The classic answer to their torpedoes!
        4. Sckepsis
          Sckepsis 12 March 2021 07: 42
          -1
          There are suspicions that if you really read the article, and not just the captions to the pictures, you would have noticed that, according to the author's words, this situation was ALWAYS in the Navy, and not only under the "king".
      2. Aag
        Aag 8 March 2021 21: 53
        +5
        Quote: Stroporez
        Quote: paco.soto
        I read it carefully. Unusual material for VO by its critical point of view.

        Colleague, similar critical articles have already been on the VO and we must give the authors credit for their critical approach and coverage of the real situation of the fleet.
        Thanks to the author for an excellent and detailed article.

        Allow me to join your opinion? I must admit, I am not an expert, especially in this area of ​​Defense. But, by indirect evidence, nothing (except for victorious reports in the media) contradicts the conclusions of the author. Thanks to the author again for the article! (Water wears away a stone ... The process, as you know, is long, cumbersome, tiring, not safe, - it is necessary to emphasize ... In confirmation, numerous comments below.).
        Therefore, to your gratitude to the author, on my own behalf, I want to add wishes for health, vigor, perseverance, and tactical flexibility.
        I will explain. It seems that by publishing such articles on VO, the author (the authors, -tov. Timokhina, should be included here) are trying to draw the attention of the "public", albeit a specialized one, to the problems that have developed (for a long time). can help, in this situation, because, and more socially significant issues were raised (... water off a duck's back, ... God's dew ...), - BUT, the authors' stubbornness, in a good way, deserves respect.
        So, about "tactical flexibility": maybe it is worth, without changing the ultimate goals, to reconsider the ways of achieving? Not talking about the correspondence with the Ministry of Defense, departments ... I raise the issue in the media, more specifically, in the VO. Even those who are more pleasant to think, that "if that, let's repeat ...", and "The Red (not like that for a long time) Army is the strongest!", sometimes they think: is it true? but at the expense of what? Someone sincerely believes that if something is everyone (except themselves) will rise up to defend themselves in a single impulse ... Someone is comfortably convinced that, since he pays taxes, the Prof. Army should protect him from attacks. And if not? Will he go to court?
        Sorry for the verbosity ... Spitch means that if there is a desire to form "public opinion", then you also need to WORK with such people! (No matter how humiliating it may seem, sorry, realities ...).
        Sincerely ...
      3. AlexSub
        AlexSub 10 March 2021 12: 16
        -1
        The article is a bit weird ...
        How can Project 636 be detected by a nuclear submarine during combat patrols? Varshavyanka seems to be less noisy. Well, yes, you need to start the diesel every 5 days. But for this time a second Varshavyanka may be on duty in the area. And even if not, how can a noisier boat follow a less noisy one after the diesel is turned off on 636? If in the area there are several 636s in combat patrol mode, then the nuclear submarine will be noticed long before she herself hears anyone.

        Then why reduce everything to a torpedo duel? Why can't you shoot at the foe with a 91P rocket? Fortunately, it flies well from the torpedo tube.
        If we consider a duel situation at the maximum launch range of an American torpedo. The torpedo will go to the target for about 15 minutes. The rocket will fly to the target in 70 seconds (!). We also take into account that due to the antediluvian telecontrol of the torpedo, the course and speed of the submarine cannot be changed much. At the same time, Varshavyanka and frigates, after a salvo, can calmly practice evasive maneuvers at maximum speeds.

        Also, the article says that: "The submarine was previously fired by Cruise missiles (subsonic, I suppose;), and the torpedoes of the type were reserved for our fleet" (c) .... Stifling laughter)))
        Here, either the American submarine was lit up as much as possible when the missiles were launched. Or, after launching at a decent distance, I quickly teleported to the deployment area of ​​our fleet.

        It can be seen that the author really wanted to pull the owl onto the globe. But somehow it was done very casually))
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Aleksandr1971
          Aleksandr1971 8 March 2021 09: 29
          +25
          You are not smart enough to write at least one sensible article, but you pour insults and empty remarks like a cornucopia. Almost 2000 lines have already been sketched here. Hope you get removed from here.
      2. Stas157
        Stas157 8 March 2021 07: 18
        +42
        Quote: user1212
        Etoges mina, famous all-seer and a graphomaniac, a specialist in all fields in one bottle. Fool

        You are more foolish than the author. Can you argue reasonably, without getting personal, calling names like a child?
      3. Bez 310
        Bez 310 8 March 2021 08: 17
        +29
        Quote: user1212
        Etoges mina, famous all-seer and graphomaniac

        Rate the article, not the author!
        I think this comment of yours is just stupidity,
        and is forced to turn to the resource management.
        1. Machito
          Machito 8 March 2021 11: 22
          +35
          Klimov's articles always amaze with their broad and voluminous coverage of the issue. Opponents accuse Maxim of omnipotence and personal interest in promoting certain products of one Dagestan company, but they do not reasonably object to either comments or articles. Looks like the bitter truth hurts your eyes.
        2. novosiolov75
          novosiolov75 10 March 2021 10: 14
          +1
          And what to evaluate the article? After a fight with fists, who waves? It is known - the victim. Apparently, apparently then it was hot that after as many as two years such articles were published))) In fact, the author convinces himself that his owner is strong! and he himself is the same strong, but rashkafse) Really, an article in the style of a terpily who tells his friends that he really knows karate, judo and in general all of himself is cool and that he could show that dildo, and in general, a dildo is a weakling in fact, the card just didn't fold)
          1. timokhin-aa
            11 March 2021 19: 37
            -1
            An article about the fact that our Navy does not have adequate hydroacoustic countermeasures, and not about what you piled up there.
            Don't make the contents of your head public.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. edsw
        edsw 8 March 2021 12: 12
        -27%
        Oh, you shouldn't have written that, here this clown is held in high esteem, now they will mince you and say "you are all lying !! 111" only mine speaks the truth, and all who are against "quilted jackets", "Putinists", "uryaks". Here, in the comments, his boyfriend sometimes harnesses (a certain physicist)
        1. timokhin-aa
          8 March 2021 14: 45
          +17
          Well, write how it is there in reality, why let the bubbles. Fizik M this is Klimov, if that.
          1. clerk
            clerk 9 March 2021 02: 18
            0
            ... Well, write how it is in reality,
            And this, in principle, can be done without using restricted information?
            1. timokhin-aa
              9 March 2021 10: 35
              +1
              Of course available.
              1. clerk
                clerk 9 March 2021 19: 37
                +1
                ... Of course available
                Thank. And since you and the author are in tandem, one more question - are there anti-torpedo devices in the American Navy with capabilities that, according to the author, are not available in the Russian Navy?
                1. timokhin-aa
                  9 March 2021 20: 04
                  +1
                  Not. They have failed their anti-torpedo program. But the problem here is that our torpedoes do not particularly threaten them. But they are very even for us.
                  1. clerk
                    clerk 10 March 2021 12: 46
                    +1
                    They have failed their anti-torpedo program. But the problem here is that our torpedoes do not particularly threaten them. But we are very even of them ..
                    Did they fail because they did not master it technically, or did they calculate tactical inefficiency? The principle - "the best defense is attack" seems to be universal ...
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      11 March 2021 19: 39
                      -2
                      They failed because at first they made a "Poseidon killer", and when the usual AT was needed, they decided to do 2 in 1. And the requirements are very different.
                      But they have already restarted the program, sooner or later they will succeed.
            2. DominickS
              DominickS 9 March 2021 16: 06
              +2
              Quote: clerk
              ... Well, write how it is in reality,
              And this, in principle, can be done without using restricted information?

              If you know how to analyze information - quite. In the "restricted information" there will still be nothing but dry numbers that are incomprehensible to an ignorant person.
      6. The comment was deleted.
      7. Mairos
        Mairos 8 March 2021 20: 28
        0
        As far as I remember, he writes "funeral" articles for almost all branches of the armed forces - everywhere the same thing - everything is incredibly cool in the West, everything is incredibly bad here.
        1. Cympak
          Cympak 9 March 2021 19: 23
          -1
          There are also problems with "partners", but you yourself are worried about whose fleet / army / aviation do you care about our or our "partners"?
    3. Thrifty
      Thrifty 8 March 2021 09: 28
      -1
      Maxim, isn't the Mk48 a wired torpedo? Its main disadvantage is that until it hits the target, the torpedo carrier who launched the launch cannot change course within 2 degrees. .. otherwise, yes, a high-speed torpedo, and with a long range. ...
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 14: 34
        +5
        the torpedo carrier that launched the launch cannot change course within 2 degrees.


        This is no longer the case, the hose reel allows you to maneuver quite widely, there the main thing is not to cut the cable with a screw.
    4. Mister X
      Mister X 8 March 2021 12: 45
      +3
      Quote: paco.soto
      Unusual, with its critical point of view, material for VO.

      hi
      I hope the criticism should be mutual, and the article unbiased.
      At the beginning of the article, the author indicated the number of ammunition fired, but did not mention their quality and effectiveness.
      Indeed, out of 105 rockets fired by the coalition, no more than 22 hit the target.
      Thus, in the area of ​​the Barza research center, at which, according to the Pentagon, 76 missiles were fired, but only 13 hits were found.
      The Tomahawks did not fulfill their tasks, apparently due to technical problems.

      Source: Chief of the General Staff of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces, Colonel-General Sergei Rudskoy.

      The question arises:
      - How reliable were the American torpedoes from today's article?
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 March 2021 21: 56
        +3
        I hope the criticism should be mutual,
        Well, who to believe? Our Rudskoy said that almost all the Tomahawks missed the mark, while the Americans said the opposite - almost all of them hit. Where is the truth?
        1. Mister X
          Mister X 9 March 2021 10: 40
          0
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          Where is the truth?

          I propose to consider that somewhere between wink
      2. ironic
        ironic 10 March 2021 01: 39
        0
        And the axes fell and did not know that the source of their hits was the head of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Colonel-General Sergei Rudskoy ... Yapatstal.

        Don't read Klimov. That's all. He has readers. I assure you. Without them, he certainly will not remain.
      3. novosiolov75
        novosiolov75 10 March 2021 10: 08
        +2
        "After all, out of 105 rockets fired by the coalition, no more than 22 hit the target" and that is why we see this article here. Who is waving his arms after the fight? That's right - the victim! And these apparently notably then got hot that after more than two years they sprinkle similar articles.
    5. paco.soto
      paco.soto 8 March 2021 16: 30
      -3
      I apologize to everyone who did not answer. We celebrate a nostalgic holiday, the wife is happy with the gifts and me and ya just can not be in dialogue. I beg your pardon - today there is a "cute henpecked", such things.
      1. dSK
        dSK 8 March 2021 20: 15
        0
        Lish wouldn’t see the US nuclear submarines in the White Sea, but our nuclear submarines had time to sail at sea for at least a couple of miles. As a last resort, and from the piers, they can give a full salvo of ICBMs ...
        1. Fan-fan
          Fan-fan 8 March 2021 21: 59
          +1
          We like to talk about "otvetka", and so - from the pier "otvetka" is impossible in principle.
          1. rudolff
            rudolff 8 March 2021 22: 19
            +1
            Why is it impossible in principle?
            1. Fan-fan
              Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 28
              +4
              Because the "response" is our response to their attack, and the first thing they do is strike at submarine parks, ICBM mines and air bases. In this case, will our submarines have time to fire a salvo at the pier? No, since there is 80 km from Norway to the pier in Vidyaevo, and 100 km to Gadzhievo. Even MLRS will be able to reach this distance.
              1. rudolff
                rudolff 8 March 2021 23: 26
                +2
                Well, in general I agree, but in principle they can shoot, it's another matter, which is unlikely. The DB may not be near the wall, on barrels for example. And it happened and went to the repair being on the database. Situations are different. But in general, yes, the strategist is not on the BS, this is a target.
              2. dSK
                dSK 9 March 2021 08: 44
                -1
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                MLRS
                they won't get to Seveodvinsk ...
    6. Oden280
      Oden280 9 March 2021 17: 46
      -4
      Tired of the whiner. Better to tell him why he was so smart from the fleet flooded.
    7. AlexSub
      AlexSub 10 March 2021 01: 21
      0
      The article is a bit weird ...
      How can Project 636 be detected by a nuclear submarine during combat patrols? Varshavyanka seems to be less noisy. Well, yes, you need to start the diesel every 5 days. But for this time a second Varshavyanka may be on duty in the area. And even if not, how can a noisier boat follow a less noisy one after the diesel is turned off on 636? If in the area there are several 636s in combat patrol mode, then the nuclear submarine will be noticed long before she herself hears anyone.

      Then why reduce everything to a torpedo duel? Why can't you shoot at the foe with a 91P rocket? Fortunately, it flies well from the torpedo tube.
      If we consider a duel situation at the maximum launch range of an American torpedo. The torpedo will go to the target for about 15 minutes. The rocket will fly to the target in 70 seconds (!). We also take into account that due to the antediluvian telecontrol of the torpedo, the course and speed of the submarine cannot be changed much. At the same time, Varshavyanka and frigates, after a salvo, can calmly practice evasive maneuvers at maximum speeds.

      Also, the article says that: "The submarine was previously fired by Cruise missiles (subsonic, I suppose;), and the torpedoes of the type were reserved for our fleet" (c) .... Stifling laughter)))
      Here, either the American submarine was lit up as much as possible when the missiles were launched. Or, after launching at a decent distance, I quickly teleported to the deployment area of ​​our fleet.

      It can be seen that the author really wanted to pull the owl onto the globe. But somehow it was done very casually))
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. megadeth
      megadeth 10 March 2021 13: 57
      -1
      I agree with you completely, otherwise the materials are purely shabby-handed + hurray patriots who, at the first shot ... of the salute ... will scatter. Yeah !!!!, I did not know that everything was launched in the Navy. The principle of the EP has long been clear: - "There is no money, but you are holding on."
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 8 March 2021 06: 00
    +7
    The most interesting arguments were presented by Maxim ... it would be nice to hear the opinion of the commander of the submarine forces of the US Navy, Vice Admiral Daryl L. Caudle, when he reads Klimov's article.
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 9 March 2021 19: 29
      0
      Daryl L. Caudle is likely to answer in the following spirit that the Russian Navy continues to pose a serious threat to the United States and the construction of warships in Russia is a serious concern and a challenge for the United States Navy and its allies.
      In general: give more money for new ships, boats, planes! ;)
  3. antivirus
    antivirus 8 March 2021 06: 22
    -34%
    well, all-drain the water. it is understandable why there is so much water in the sewer .................. nothing is said about the removal of the plaster and the departure of the client
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 8 March 2021 06: 28
      +13
      Quote: antivirus
      well, all-drain the water. it is understandable why there is so much water in the sewer .................. nothing is said about the removal of the plaster and the departure of the client

      What was needed? Write a rebuttal if you can. hi
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 8 March 2021 06: 34
        -20%
        The Strategic Missile Forces with huge missiles and PLO-PTZ (?) Are apparently equal in price. The number of missiles is equal. The entire Western world has been building the Navy by joint efforts for decades. we are alone. always lost in the technology race. I hope that not everything is as bad as in the article. otherwise it is easier not to build the Russian Navy.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 8 March 2021 06: 45
          +23
          Quote: antivirus
          Strategic Missile Forces with huge missiles and PLO-PTZ (?) Are apparently equal in price

          The Navy is considered the most high-tech type of troops in the Armed Forces, and the author clearly indicates the technological lag of the Russian Federation in the development of the fleet.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 8 March 2021 06: 46
            +4
            The Navy is considered the most high-tech type of troops in the Armed Forces
            For some reason I thought -RVSN and Aviation-Air Defense.
            the consciousness of the steppe dwellers against the sea-manners.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 8 March 2021 06: 52
              +16
              Quote: antivirus
              For some reason I thought -RVSN and Aviation-Air Defense.

              Comrade, I also thought so, until the Moremans explained to me what it was to build a submarine, as a carrier of nuclear weapons or an aircraft carrier, as an aircraft carrier. good drinks
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 8 March 2021 09: 45
                +4
                all my buffoonery minuses for "10 pcs of AB for 100 VI" ----- are deserved. why build them? if you can get all partners from the Kirov region.
                you need to look at the portrait of Shoigu and VVP - there is a priority, secondary priorities, etc. - all the other Wishlist later.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 8 March 2021 12: 44
                  +5
                  Quote: antivirus
                  you need to look at the portrait of Shoigu and VVP is a priority

                  pray and bow down? belay
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    8 March 2021 14: 43
                    +1
                    Especially the PR man Shoigu needs to bow down. To our Teflon general.
                    1. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 8 March 2021 22: 58
                      +14
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Especially the PR man Shoigu needs to bow down. To our Teflon general.

                      Ha, there are already many bumps on their foreheads ... byada fellow
              2. ccsr
                ccsr 8 March 2021 12: 15
                -15%
                Quote: Stroporez
                until the Moremans explained to me what it means to build a submarine, as a carrier of nuclear weapons or an aircraft carrier, as an aircraft carrier.

                And they did not explain to you, what for is it all to build if our Strategic Missile Forces are faster and of better quality, and for less money will erase the United States into nuclear dust and the entire NATO bloc at the same time? The naval forces apparently still cannot forgive the offense that their type of armed forces have been dancing for a long time, and if there were no nuclear submarines with ballistic missiles, they could have been cut in half more painlessly. So sometimes it is less necessary to listen to all-propals like Klimov and Timokhin, and turn on the brains and watch what types of weapons have been developed in the last decade, and which will be on alert until the middle of the 21st century.
                By the way, purely hypothetically, the author of the article or you can substantiate in which NATO plans an approach to our areas of deployment of the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet is provided for carrying out a torpedo attack. As far as I know, no one believed in such nonsense even in Soviet times, because this is not only an unmasking sign, but also the guaranteed destruction of the enemy's fleet even at a distance from the use of missile weapons, not only of the fleet, but also of naval aviation. And how our strategic nuclear forces will be used in this case, neither Klimov nor Timokhin can even come close to - the level of knowledge is not the one to pose as strategists.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 8 March 2021 12: 43
                  +11
                  Quote: ccsr
                  if our Strategic Missile Forces are faster and of better quality, and for less money will erase the United States and the entire NATO bloc into nuclear dust at the same time?

                  jelly-tv? belay
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 8 March 2021 13: 19
                    -7
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    jelly-tv?

                    26 years of service, and not in the Klimovsk sharaga.
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      8 March 2021 14: 35
                      +3
                      Twenty-six years of service in the grocery store and clearing snow in the park. With the rank of ensign.

                      Tell your children fairy tales.
                    2. smaug78
                      smaug78 8 March 2021 15: 43
                      +2
                      And then the warehouse manager suffered laughing laughing laughing
                2. antivirus
                  antivirus 8 March 2021 15: 55
                  -3
                  many times I agree with you. And the funny thing is that the VVP team (not only from St. Petersburg) is following a simple line. SBIvanov, after entering Iraq in 03g: "war comes on the wings", the creation of the Aerospace Forces. modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces ..... then give money and build Wishlist on them.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 8 March 2021 17: 15
                    +2
                    Quote: antivirus
                    after entering Iraq in 03g: "war comes on the wings",

                    If you analyze the first Gulf War, then you could notice that the Americans were afraid to bring ground forces into Iraq and limited themselves to an air operation with a large use of cruise missiles. We carefully studied this fact, as well as the subsequent removal of Schwarzkopf from office, for the fact that he allegedly did not agree with something. In a word, even then the picture of the future war of the Americans was outlined, and the bombing of Yugoslavia consolidated this. So let's put it this way, before 2003 we already understood what the war with a non-nuclear country would be like, and the fact that the Americans chose to defeat the enemy without contact became obvious. And here smart guys like Klimov and Timokhin are telling us nonsense that almost a collision of squadrons will occur in the ocean, torpedo attacks by submarines - in general, he is resting in a madhouse ...
                    Quote: antivirus
                    modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces.

                    Yes, for this alone, Putin can be forgiven for all the shortcomings of the economy, and for his flirting with the elite, but the job is done, and now anyone who understands armaments sees that we have made a reserve for many years to come. No matter how they reviled Khrushchev for his twists, it was he who, developing missile weapons, allowed us to still live in peace. Those who will replace us will be grateful to us at least for the fact that we made the "sword" even better, albeit to the detriment of our well-being. True, if those who will replace Putin themselves do not give up this "sword", as it was under the drunkard Yeltsin.
                    1. antivirus
                      antivirus 9 March 2021 20: 14
                      0
                      I did not write for a long time - the Americans entered Iraq and began to make money on oil, raised prices - it is profitable to consume less than you control and sell excess at high prices .. now we would be a large suburb without high prices.

                      The management only received the money already in 03g (Nemtsov was surprised at such happiness - "it was 12-15, we would have 40 dollars / barrel") and the prospect for years ahead DECIDED TO RETURN TO THE BIG GAME. igrat -tak ig .. to 21g ("cartoons looked") just returned to the circle of the great powers on rocket technologies.
                      If we are going to build an ocean-going fleet, it will take 20-25 years.
                  2. timokhin-aa
                    8 March 2021 20: 27
                    0
                    But in Iraq in 2003, it was not so much the American aviation as the American tanks that won.
                    So, between us.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 8 March 2021 20: 53
                      +3
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      But in Iraq in 2003, it was not so much the American aviation as the American tanks that won.
                      So, between us.

                      The illiterate journalist does not know that by that time Iraq had been under tough sanctions for more than ten years, had practically no combat aircraft, a huge shortage of weapons, faulty equipment, which is why the Americans "grew bolder." And even then, after they bribed the Iraqi generals, who surrendered Saddam. But even in that war, they sometimes could not take the fortified areas of the Iraqis for weeks, and no armored vehicles stormed them even close, so study the ABC book before telling stories to people.
                      1. timokhin-aa
                        9 March 2021 16: 58
                        -5
                        The drunken ensign again gathered everything in a heap.

                        Well, first with the details.
                        Did the commander of the Medina Republic Guard TD correctly use artillery at the beginning of the battles for the Baghdad denouement ("Objective Peach" in American documents) against units of the 3rd Infantry Division of the US Armed Forces?
                        Could this artillery, having survived the initial stage of the battles, ensure the success of the 10th brigade attack?

                        Eh, ensign? Let's compare who is illiterate here? Who is in the subject and who is not?

                        ... And even then, after they bribed the Iraqi generals, who surrendered Saddam.


                        This is not a bum Vasya told you this?
                        No, bribery was, for example, on the right Iraqi flank, it eventually led to a delay in blowing up the bridge over the Euphrates and gave the American infantry time to capture the bridge. But this is an isolated case, and he did not have a decisive influence on anything, heavy equipment still could not go across the bridge after a partial detonation. The defeat of the Iraqi troops is not reduced to this bribery from the word "absolutely". They were outplayed even at the planning stage of the operation, and then the factor of technical superiority affected. They could have endured almost anyone in the world that year.

                        I hope you are at least a little aware of the events described.
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 9 March 2021 17: 57
                        +2
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Could this artillery,

                        I do not know what artillery could have done in the fantasies of the journalist, but the very fact that this did not affect the outcome of the war.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        This is not a bum Vasya told you this?

                        This is the circle of your informants, and I can only give the known data:
                        ... one of Saddam Hussein's relatives, Abdurrahman At-Tikriti, even before the war, began informing the Americans about the movements of the leaders of the Baghdad regime, including the president and his eldest son Uday Hussein, who commanded Saddam's fedayeen.
                        Hussein's personal security officer, whose name has not been disclosed, the newspaper notes, conveyed to the United States information about a leadership meeting in the presidential complex on the night of March 19-20, as well as in a house in the Al-Mansour area on the night of April 7. The Americans launched massive strikes on both targets, but Hussein escaped. The newspaper claims that the informant was identified and executed on the morning of April 7.
                        The third traitor "Alefiya" considers the nephew of the ex-president, Lieutenant General Maher Sufyan At-Tikriti. As an assistant to Qusay Hussein, he actually commanded the 100th Republican Guard defending Baghdad.
                        According to some reports, the United States made a deal with him a year ago that the Republican Guard would not participate in the battles, the newspaper said. As General Mahdi al-Dulaymi stated, on April 4, At-Tikriti gave the order not to accept the battle for the airport and to withdraw, and on April 7 he ordered the Iraqi military to leave their positions.
                        According to the official American version, General Maher Sufyan At-Tikriti was killed, however, according to some information, the newspaper writes, on April 8 in the morning he and his family were taken by plane C-130 to one of the American bases abroad.
                        .... US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has stated several times that the Iraqis will not fight in Baghdad and that Hussein's regime will fall, and CENTCOM commander Tommy Franks admitted that the fall of Baghdad was "bought."


                        Related links RIA 'News' https://www.pravda.ru/world/809425-saddama_predali_tri_generala_etogo_okazalos_dostatochno/


                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        They were outplayed even at the planning stage of the operation, and then the factor of technical superiority affected.

                        Enough lies, verbiage, because the Iraqi army did not even receive weapons from the USSR, the country could not buy all types of medicines because of the sanctions, there was no aviation, and here the Americans showed "planning miracles." And why then did they not show their planning skills in the first war in the Gulf, when Saddam's army was much better armed, and why they did not defeat it, but let it quietly leave Kuwait. Can you explain, dreamer?
                      3. timokhin-aa
                        9 March 2021 18: 06
                        -4
                        I do not know what artillery could have done in the fantasies of the journalist, but the very fact that this did not affect the outcome of the war.


                        Well, how is it. The drunken ensign does not know that the outcome of the battles for the denouement will determine whether the Iraqi troops will break into Baghdad or will the Americans enter an almost empty city with several thousand defenders?
                        Wow!
                        Ensign, why are you writing about this war then?

                        This is the circle of your informants, and I can only give the known data:

                        this is the known "data" pumped by your functional counterparts.

                        What were those 100000 guardsmen in Baghdad? Will it be difficult to name the connection numbers?

                        As General Mahdi Ad-Duleimi stated, on April 4, At-Tikriti gave the order not to accept the battle for the airport and to withdraw.


                        But the battle for the airport WAS! This is a legendary event, with an attack by Iraqi infantry from underground communications! How can you not know about it? !!! "

                        Well, you have friends, ensign, I'll tell you ...

                        but they allowed us to leave Kuwait in peace.


                        The drunken ensign has not heard of the "highway of death"? Oh my God.

                        I never thought that the GRU recruits those who are not fit for combat.
                        Or is it a food warehouse?
                      4. ccsr
                        ccsr 9 March 2021 19: 44
                        +3
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        that the outcome of the battles for the denouement will determine whether the Iraqi troops will break into Baghdad or the Americans will enter an almost empty city with several thousand defenders?

                        These journalistic clichés will be vparivat your fans, telling how American heroes fought against Saddam's army, which by that time was not only weak, but also demoralized by betrayal. Just don't forget to explain where their "heroism" was in the first war.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Will it be difficult to name the connection numbers?

                        Why, if everything is clear to me with that situation.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        have you heard of the "highway of death"?

                        Are you spitting with American stamps again, cheap journalist?
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Never thought

                        I had no doubt about it - at first you carry nonsense, and then you also wonder why you are considered a verbiage.
                      5. timokhin-aa
                        9 March 2021 20: 06
                        -2
                        Ensign, in essence, comment on the battle between the tanks of the 10th Tank Brigade and American tanks from the 3rd Infantry Division to the southwest of Baghdad.
                        Everything is obvious to you.

                        Or are you one of those who only know how to do reciprocating with a head?

                        Well, yes, I am not considered a verbiage. It's just that all sorts of flawed figures, whom I wiped their boots on, are trying to offend me like that.
                        But it doesn't work laughing
                      6. antivirus
                        antivirus 9 March 2021 20: 23
                        +1
                        the level of the mental is clear. know how to answer. while I am writing to you. about the ensign: does the general's cockade and cap press on the brains?
                      7. ccsr
                        ccsr 9 March 2021 20: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        On the merits, comment on the battle between the tanks of the 10th Tank Brigade and the American tanks from the 3rd Infantry Division to the southwest of Baghdad.

                        An illiterate journalist does not even understand that by the number of tanks used, this battle cannot be judged at all how the planning of military operations took place at the level of several formations. Play with tanks in your sandbox, verbiage and better tell how many and what attack helicopters the Iraqis used in this battle. At the same time, tell us which Iraqi anti-tank battalions participated in the clash. When you find the data, provide a link so that you are not considered a liar.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        But it doesn't work

                        It works, it still works - I'm not the only one laughing at you, and you understood that.
                      8. timokhin-aa
                        11 March 2021 20: 25
                        -3
                        how many and what attack helicopters the Iraqis used in this battle.


                        What helicopters are there at night in a storm, dumbass? What are the PT divisions?
                        Tie up with booze.
                      9. ccsr
                        ccsr 11 March 2021 20: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        What helicopters are there at night in a storm, dumbass? What are the PT divisions?

                        The jacket has no idea what modern combat is, what kind of support for armored units is provided by attack helicopters.
                        and artillery units. By the way, all helicopter pilots are trained in night flights - you seem to be out of the picture here too.
                        Now tell me whether it was all with the Iraqis or not, you are pretending to be an expert on that war, you should know.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 9 March 2021 21: 15
            +2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            I hope you are at least a little aware of the events described.

            Enlighten yourself, miserable verbiage, you haven't read such materials:
            In 2008, the Institute of Military History of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation published a 764-page work "The Art of War in Local Wars and Armed Conflicts." With regard to the wars in Iraq, it draws the following conclusion. “A characteristic feature of the war in the Persian Gulf was the fact that ... in this war, the dominant place belonged to strategic and operational means, represented by ... aviation, as well as missile means. Tactical formations and their actions (infantry, tank, and artillery formations and units) did not determine the "face" of the operation ..., its course and outcome. "

            A.V. Usikov, G.A. Burutin, V.A. Gavrilov, S.L. Tyshlykov, under the general editorship of Colonel-General A.S. Rukshin, Moscow, Military Publishing, 2008, p. 308
  4. Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 8 March 2021 17: 11
    +1
    "Strategic Missile Forces faster" - faster is it like?
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 8 March 2021 18: 04
      0
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      "Strategic Missile Forces faster" - faster is it like?

      With the release of a covert command, not intercepted by the enemy - less than thirty minutes to fully guarantee the destruction of the enemy. Not a single branch of the armed forces provides us with such efficiency and reliability. And in the future they will come out on the threshold of 20-22 minutes, as I believe. So the Strategic Missile Forces is our everything - both as a means of attack and a means of retaliatory strike, if we all sleep before the launch of enemy missiles.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 8 March 2021 22: 04
        0
        Now I understand your idea. However, not all of the Strategic Missile Forces can. To erase an adversary into dust is an extreme measure, fraught with its own transformation into dust. And second, in wars like the Falklands, nuclear weapons are meaningless, effective and efficient conventional armed forces are needed.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 9 March 2021 15: 58
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          To erase an adversary into dust is an extreme measure, fraught with its own transformation into dust. And second, in Falkland-type wars

          As long as we have this opportunity, neither the United States, nor NATO, nor China will start a war against us by conventional means, both on land and at sea.
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          in wars like the Falklands, nuclear weapons are meaningless,

          It seems senseless for now, but I am afraid that tactical nuclear weapons (or "dirty bombs") will be used in local conflicts, the Americans are too active in this direction.
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          effective and efficient conventional armed forces are needed.

          Battles of the type that were in the Great Patriotic War will no longer be for us, and therefore conventional forces must be kept in a minimum number, including ground forces and the navy. But we will have to constantly improve the high-tech weapons systems of the Strategic Missile Forces and the Aerospace Forces.
        2. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 9 March 2021 16: 35
          -3
          “They will not start a war against us by conventional means, both on land and at sea” - why don't you take into account the conflict with other countries? It was quite possible to finish badly with Turkey a few years ago. Ukraine may try to commit suicide. But you never know who, the Americans, for example, ran into Iraq.
          "Will be used in local conflicts, the Americans are working too actively" - again the Americans, do we have no other enemies?
          “Ordinary forces should be kept in a minimum amount” - but here I completely agree, the only question is in the amount of this minimum amount.
          "High-tech weapons systems of the Strategic Missile Forces and Aerospace Forces" are just the most low-tech weapons systems wink
        3. timokhin-aa
          11 March 2021 20: 16
          -1
          why don't you take into account the conflict with other countries? It was quite possible to finish badly with Turkey a few years ago. Ukraine may try to commit suicide. But you never know who, the Americans, for example, ran into Iraq.


          He cannot "take into account" anything. There is nothing.
  5. Fan-fan
    Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 06
    -2
    Our rockets take 30 minutes to reach the USA. And NATO missiles from Kharkov to Moscow must fly for a couple of minutes. I think Ukraine will someday be admitted to NATO.
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 8 March 2021 23: 11
      +14
      Quote: Fan-Fan
      And NATO missiles from Kharkov to Moscow

      Poland, the Scandinavians or the water area ... Kamrad, it is difficult for turboputriots to explain who is in the dust.
      I have been saying for a long time that if life is not sweet for the Putinids, they need to give them Pu-1 grenades, purely, so that they can go straight to heaven.
  6. Tamer
    Tamer 9 March 2021 00: 21
    -5
    Quote: ccsr
    less than thirty minutes to fully guarantee the destruction of the enemy

    Sell ​​this game to the children of the Youth Army.
  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 9 March 2021 05: 17
    -4
    Quote: ccsr
    By the way, hypothetically, the author of the article or you can justify what NATO plans provide for an approach to our SF deployment areas and Pacific Fleet for torpedo attack.
    that's interesting ... and a rounded, depressed mark on the starboard side of the Kursk ... ? !! , as -
    Quote: ccsr
    hypothetically
    can not be ?!
    1. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 10: 34
      -1
      that's interesting .... and the rounded depressed mark on the starboard side of the Kursk ...? !! , as -


      It was not that. There, a technological cut-out was made to raise the boat, torpedoes leave other traces.

      And these traces remained on the sawn-off compartment.
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 9 March 2021 13: 45
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        that's interesting .... and the rounded depressed mark on the starboard side of the Kursk ...? !! , as -


        It was not that. There a technological cut-out was made for lifting boats, torpedoes leave other traces.


        mean round dent inside, is either an underwater welder too much tapped with a hammer when they cut off his nose (exactly around the circumference ... what a neat !!), or from an internal explosion ? !! belay what

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        ... torpedoes leave other traces. AND these traces remained on the sawn-off compartment.
        ... ? !! and then, and -
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Just because that we had Kursk, Su-24M, Israeli setup from the Il-20, and we did not use it.
        , all the same suggests that you have the logic !! hi you just can't write about everything ..? !! ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          9 March 2021 16: 59
          -1
          Once again, the hole on the starboard side does not apply to torpedoes, traces of explosions remained on the sawn-off part.
          I'm not writing any guesswork now.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 03
      0
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      that's interesting ... and a rounded depressed mark on the starboard side of Kursk

      I do not know what actually happened there, but I am sure that the commander of the American submarine did not exactly receive the command to leave a depressed mark on Kursk.
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      can not be ?!

      Given the current state of our Strategic Missile Forces and the determination of the commander-in-chief, this cannot be the case in principle.
  • Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 8 March 2021 09: 08
    +6
    "The most high-tech type" - the Navy can be neither high nor low-tech by definition. This is a very expensive branch of the armed forces,
  • New Year day
    New Year day 8 March 2021 07: 14
    +9
    Quote: antivirus
    Strategic Missile Forces with huge missiles

    And the United States is still in service with the Minuteman, and converted 5 Ohio under cruise missiles. What is it for?
    1. Grits
      Grits 8 March 2021 17: 22
      +3
      Quote: Silvestr
      What is it for?

      Because they know how to count money. And we have "Sharks" all gathered to cut. Of these, the carriers of the CD missiles would come out no worse than the Ohio
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 8 March 2021 21: 21
        0
        Quote: Gritsa
        Of these, the carriers of the CD missiles would come out no worse than the Ohio

        That's it! hi Americans really
        Quote: Gritsa
        know how to count money.
        and they realized that nuclear missiles do not pay off because they cannot be used.
        They changed doctrine and focused on CD. We are investing in nuclear weapons and are trying to make up for lost time in the CD. But there are no carriers
        1. Essex62
          Essex62 9 March 2021 11: 13
          -1
          Their goals and objectives are offensive. "" Strengthening the cut colored paper. For what reason can the Russian Federation not use nuclear missiles for retaliation? A very effective way to make Freemasons survive in bunkers. "
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 10 March 2021 08: 19
            0
            Quote: Essex62
            why the Russian Federation can not use nuclear missiles for retaliation?

            Because in return he will receive the same thing. Nuclear weapons cannot be used by either side. It is for this reason that hybrid wars are going on and time shows - effectively
        2. Cympak
          Cympak 9 March 2021 19: 36
          -1
          START limits the number of deployed nuclear weapons. Stupidly not enough warheads for all "Ohio", and therefore decided to convert some of the boats into arsenals of cruise missiles
      2. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 09
        -5
        They not only know how to count money, but also know how to think. And what our "generalisimos" are thinking, I guess - clearly not about the future of their country.
  • Nazar
    Nazar 8 March 2021 06: 24
    +30
    The material is very serious and it is clear that it is "painful", but to publish it here, on VO is about the same as in Vysotsky's - "... answer us, otherwise, if you do not answer, we will write to Sportloto." it seems that no one "responded" and had to write in ... well, in the sense of VO. request
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 8 March 2021 09: 38
      +1
      Quote: Nazar
      The material is very serious and it is clear that it is "painful"

      laughing laughing laughing Yes there has long been "painful" and it itches regularly. yes
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 14: 36
        +5
        Essentially there is something to object?
    2. Machito
      Machito 8 March 2021 11: 25
      +5
      Quote: Nazar
      The material is very serious and it is clear that it is "painful", but to publish it here, on VO is about the same as in Vysotsky's - "... answer us, otherwise, if you do not answer, we will write to Sportloto." it seems that no one "responded" and had to write in ... well, in the sense of VO. request

      Klimov writes not only on VO, but also Shoigu.
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 13
        +2
        It is useless to write to Shoigu, he does not understand anything in this matter, since he is a civil engineer by profession. And the rank of major general was awarded after the military rank of "senior lieutenant of the reserve" without observing the order of assignment of officer ranks.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 8 March 2021 06: 29
    +35
    I am not an expert from the word we will combine, and therefore I will not undertake to discuss the article, but the work is extremely interesting and commands respect for its excellent elaboration. Thank.
    1. Alien From
      Alien From 8 March 2021 07: 10
      +12
      I agree with you! The author has a heart for the fleet! And this is far from a little!
  • 501Legion
    501Legion 8 March 2021 07: 30
    -3
    The US Navy's Virginia-class submarine USS John Warner was prepared to sink Russian warships if they responded to a US air strike on Syria, Fox News reported.

    To make a noise, not to roll bags
  • KCA
    KCA 8 March 2021 07: 34
    -13%
    Often you go to the VO, and that's it, turn off the light, wrap yourself in a clean sheet and move towards the cemetery, it turns out that we have stupid people in our General Staff, the Minister of Defense is generally civilian, and only true experts on VO know how bad everything is, but what do they sit on the Internet? Cho not in the General Staff do not open their eyes to thieves, fools and traitors? Here the author of the article would go to the headquarters of the Navy and teach everyone what and how to do, no, it is more convenient for him to send pussies to the Internet for 20 kopecks
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 8 March 2021 09: 49
      -8
      I agree ::::: it turns out that we have stupid people in our General Staff, the Minister of Defense is generally a civilian, and only true specialists in the Military District know how bad everything is.
      on the 117th place is the delivery of missiles and other equipment to the mine or the position of the region - Kamchatka (and even Vladivostok) and Murman - how much is the railway tariff higher than in the Smolensk-Kirov-Novosibirsk and Orenburg regions?
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 14: 37
        +2
        Why are you performing here? In essence, can you object or add anything? Not. Why then these eruptions?
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 8 March 2021 15: 50
          -5
          in essence - only the edge "life-death" will show. real application and opposition, and the chatter of the retired on an open site is only a mockery at your (plural) address. The enemy will be defeated in the VO. The victory will be for TIMOKHIN. a lot of honor. I am not a marine and not a jacket. only urgently served in the SA of the USSR
          1. timokhin-aa
            8 March 2021 18: 34
            +2
            in essence - only the edge "life-death" will show.


            Will show, yes. Only without a second chance. For us.
    2. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 14: 36
      +2
      In essence, please object.
    3. KCA
      KCA 8 March 2021 18: 21
      0
      And my friend guards the Almaz-Antey landfill, what he is guarding there, it is not known, it is only known that all the iron from the landfill was taken to KapYar, and the fact that the hats and clever men were very pleased, we are waiting for new NATO threats, not everything is drained and merges, control of deep-sea vehicles, except for Russia, no one can, but we don't give a fuck, they lowered the device into the Mariana Trench without wires and do not drink
  • Alexilyin
    Alexilyin 8 March 2021 08: 06
    +11
    I read the material with interest. Everything is correct. Unfortunately, our Navy has problems not only with PTZ, but also PMZ (mine protection). Those TSCs that are in the composition do not correspond to modern realities, and cannot conduct a full-fledged fight against mines. And their quantity and quality is poor.
    1. Machito
      Machito 8 March 2021 11: 27
      +1
      The author wrote an article about Alexandrites. It highlights the problems of PMZ.
  • Lepsik
    Lepsik 8 March 2021 08: 10
    -26%
    the author is a typical paid provocateur on trust.

    Waiting until they rush to refute his nonsense with documents and facts. In polite society, such candelabra are beaten.
    1. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. 8 March 2021 09: 15
      0
      Do you believe cartoons from our Ministry of Defense and everything that is in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation about "no analogue to the world"? laughing It was exactly the same in 39-40. And then it turned out that everything needed to be redone: tanks, planes, artillery, rifle ... Until 41g, they only sang: war on foreign territory, everyone is better and stronger. And if they really evaluated their own and others', then the number of victims would have been several times less ... Only then, and now, no one thinks about the protection of personnel. The soldier is a consumable
      1. Essex62
        Essex62 9 March 2021 11: 24
        +1
        The armament of the USSR and Germany were comparable in terms of performance characteristics in the 41st. Except for IA and communication. But according to the ability to fight, the literacy of personnel - an abyss. That is why such deplorable results of the first period of the Second World War.
        1. Cympak
          Cympak 9 March 2021 19: 40
          -1
          The Red Army in 1941 had a whole range of problems, with some of them it faced back in the Finnish war.
    2. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 14: 38
      +12
      In decent public, people like you are kicked in the face until they confirm their accusations.
      Do you think this is nonsense? Well, write then how it really is.
  • rjpthju
    rjpthju 8 March 2021 09: 25
    +19
    Why are we discussing these issues? And where is the military prosecutor's office, the FSB. After all, this is a direct blow to our national security. Under the guise of doing nothing, there is a direct betrayal. To call a spade a spade ... How else to call the decision of the chief "to do nothing" and at the same time he is on the board of directors of a competing company. Absurd? Or so it seems to me. Or, as is customary now, everything is bought and sold ...
    1. Grits
      Grits 8 March 2021 17: 25
      +4
      Quote: rjpthju
      And where is the military prosecutor's office, the FSB.

      They are terribly far from the people. Sorry - from the specifics of the Navy
    2. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 19
      -1
      Where is the military prosecutor's office, the FSB
      As where? Navalny was caught, and now his like-minded people are being caught.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 8 March 2021 09: 36
    +8
    Quote: KCA
    Often you go to the VO, and that's it, turn off the light, wrap yourself in a clean sheet and move towards the cemetery, it turns out that we have stupid people in our General Staff, the Minister of Defense is generally civilian, and only true experts on VO know how bad everything is, but what do they sit on the Internet? Cho not in the General Staff do not open their eyes to thieves, fools and traitors? Here the author of the article would go to the headquarters of the Navy and teach everyone what and how to do, no, it is more convenient for him to send pussies to the Internet for 20 kopecks

    Why do you think that the General Staff are not stupid people? Most likely it is. The higher up the military career ladder, the stronger the negative selection. The smart in MO are the exception.
    The author from time to time sends his calculations to the Ministry of Defense and receives polite replies in response.
    1. rjpthju
      rjpthju 8 March 2021 20: 12
      +1
      I agree. Try to reach them, they are like gods in heaven, not available. So it is necessary, for those who are in the subject, to draw attention to the problems. And in the army, everything is beautiful and good only on commercials. And the new technique is excellent, no problems, no social problems, and the staff are at their best. Take the prolific female generals, not generals, but generals. Like devils jumped out of the snuffbox. As an organizer I liked Shoigu (the Ministry of Emergency Situations created a powerful one, one of the best in the world, practically from scratch. Maybe you remember what civil defense in Spitak was like?), But got into the wrong stream. With wolves to live like a wolf howl. And went with the flow. I would have tried not to swim ... As in gangs, they knit everyone in blood so that there are no clean ones left. So there are all their own, and as we all heard, they do not abandon their own people.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 8 March 2021 09: 39
    +8
    Quote: Lepsik
    the author is a typical paid provocateur on trust.

    Waiting until they rush to refute his nonsense with documents and facts. In polite society, such candelabra are beaten.

    As for the fee, I'm not sure. As for the provocation - why not. A provocation in itself is neither good nor bad. Provocation is just a tool. In this case, useful. So you will take the trouble to refute the author with documents and facts, and not insult him for the serious work done.
  • codetalker
    codetalker 8 March 2021 09: 48
    +11
    The "professional" part of the article is very high quality, highlights the problem, and so on. But why take the 2018 case to create it? So many assumptions were made that canceled out all the work. “The enemy was ready to fight,” “Frigates and diesel-electric submarines were not used together,” and so on and so forth. Where did the author get this from? It seems so to him ...
    And the problem is really very urgent, requiring a high-quality study. QUALITATIVE, and not so ...
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 8 March 2021 12: 48
      +35
      Quote: codetalker
      The "professional" part of the article is very high quality, highlights the problem, and so on. But why take the 2018 case to create it? So many assumptions were made that canceled out all the work. “The enemy was ready to fight,” “Frigates and diesel-electric submarines were not used together,” and so on and so forth. Where did the author get this from? It seems so to him ...

      Maxim is a pro and you can't take that away from him. There are no questions about the technical issues of PLO-PTZ. But sometimes he rises from technology to tactics, OI and even strategy, where A. Timokhin helps him ... (And I very much suspect that A. Timokhin wrote this part for him (?) And here "weak spots" are immediately revealed. For example:
      1. The assertion that ships arrive at BS with Ka-27 incapable of combat is not true. Nobody will let such a ship "round the corner" in the North! I can’t judge the Pacific Fleet. Before (when I served) civilization has not reached it yet. laughing
      2. The main means of PLO NK (if there is an PLO helicopter on the boat) has never been a subtle GAS / GAK.
      3. The assertion that Mediterranean "complex hydrology" is, to put it mildly, not true. Basically there are 1-2 types of hydrology. If doubts arise, the hydrological section always gives a specific answer to the question of hydrology. But no one goes below 200 m unnecessarily ...
      4. Data on the range of MGK-335 (10-12 km) from the poster - misinformation for the enemy. In fact, on Platina, we saw up to 30 km and even triangulated the place using the towed part ...
      5. About the PLO helicopter complex a lot (and probably rightly) they say negative things. But on VGS-3 our "dragonflies" found PLA with a "reverse comb" at a distance of 100-120 km from the carrier. And the distance was 5-7 km (!) And successfully led the submarine in a passive mode. And then the BODs also transmitted the contact. I'm not sure Moose was much louder than the current Virgins! And yet ... they were herded !!!
      6. "Knowing the realities of our Navy, there are good reasons to doubt that the correct tactical application was adopted ..."
      For some reason, the author did not tell the public that we have 1-2 PLA-northerners in Mediterranean ... And during the growing crisis (as in April 2018) forces are building up ...
      Question: And the author is sure that the cowboy "Johnny Warner" was not at gunpoint at some thread of "Barsik" from the animal division !? Eastern Middle-earth has always been grazed by our 971s. Therefore, it is not a fact that "John" was not on the "Kukan". And that changes a lot.
      7. The phrase is striking - "But in the gallant Navy, a bolt was hammered into the" bare ass "..." (Ambiguous somehow! bully )
      By this, the author casts doubt on the measures to check the absence of tracking you! And for some reason he thinks that the boat is on a straight course, without flaps and listening to its aft corners. It is not checked on the foot in the "silence" mode, but only is saved by "Furious Ivan" ... Which is also not true.
      8. The article mentions that J. Warner did shoot his 6 CRBDs along the shore ... And what, he remained "invisible" for the "cat" herding him !? Or amy even pooping with camomiles !?
      I have nothing against technical issues of PTZ and PLO, and the ensuing consequences ...
      BUT!!! Not everyone in black really stays in the navy. There are also bright glimpses. Look, the SRs were crying openly that they could not throw 636.3 off the tail, so they did not shoot. But they have Astyut for anti-submarine missions sharpened! An, not everything is as good as the Yankees hang on our ears over time. yes
      AHA.
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 14: 39
        +1
        I didn’t help Max in any way, the answer from him will soon be.
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 8 March 2021 17: 50
          +3
          AA, sorry, wrong. request
          I just thought that since you did not serve in the navy, you might not know the subtleties and details ... what
          Henceforth I will be guided only by the signatures of the authors. yes
          1. timokhin-aa
            8 March 2021 18: 32
            +3
            Maxim's answer, there are no my additions.

            But sometimes he rises from technology to tactics, OI and even strategy, where A. Timokhin helps him ... (And I very much suspect that A. Timokhin wrote this part to him (?)


            The article is completely mine (AT added a couple of stylistic suggestions)

            And here "weak points" are immediately revealed.

            1. The assertion that ships arrive at the BS with Ka-27 incapable of combat is not true. No one will let such a ship "round the corner" in the North!


            READ CAREFULLY
            It was about the Ka-27PS, which is usually carried around the corner.
            Stupid because we do not have a MULTI-PURPOSE vert (i.e. the Ka-27PS plays the role of a troop transport for the assigned anti-terror group).
            Not to mention the antiquity and technical condition of the Ka-27PL.

            2. The main means of PLO NK (if there is an PLO helicopter on the boat) has never been a subtle GAS / GAK.


            READ GUIDANCE DOCUMENTS.
            What is stated in them directly contradicts your statement, and the reason for this is simple - the weakness and short range of our high-frequency OGAS (with the LF OGAS HELRAS the conversation may be completely different)

            3. The assertion that Mediterranean "complex hydrology" is, to put it mildly, not true. Basically there are 1-2 types of hydrology. If doubts arise, the hydrological section always gives a specific answer to the question of hydrology. But no one goes below 200 m unnecessarily ...


            First, they are omitted.
            And secondly, think for yourself, how can a WARM (and in different ways - seasonal and daily thermocline) subsurface layer be combined with type 1?!?!?

            4. Data on the range of MGK-335 (10-12 km) from the poster - misinformation for the enemy. In fact, on Platina, we saw up to 30 km and even triangulated the place using the towed part ...


            These are not even fairy tales of the Viennese woods ... No need to flog THIS nonsense, it hurts !!!
            Triangulation means SHP. In 30 km ShP on Platinum?!?!? Unscientific fiction - in the next room!
            In general, Platinum (and the old, Soviet) has record ranges, “significantly more than 20 km”, BUT - IN WINTER, in the NW part of TO (where “pure 1 type” - with the closure of the deep and thermal shut-off zone and a good positive anomaly) target - 949A project. And of course the ACTIVE.

            5. About the PLO helicopter complex a lot (and probably rightly) they say negative things. But on VGS-3 our "dragonflies" found PLA with a "reverse comb" at a distance of 100-120 km from the carrier. And the distance was 5-7 km (!) And successfully led the submarine in a passive mode. And then the BODs also transmitted the contact. I'm not sure Moose was much louder than the current Virgins! And yet ... they were herded !!!


            Another FAIRY FAIRY TALES. The indicated fantastic (for OGAS VGS-3) distances are not bad for a powerful, with a huge antenna and optimal frequency range of the Rubicon SJC. Against the background of which the antenna OGAS VGS-1 is simply ridiculous and ridiculous.

            6. "Knowing the realities of our Navy, there are good reasons to doubt that the correct tactical application was adopted ..."
            For some reason, the author did not tell the public that we have 1-2 PLA-northerners in Mediterranean ... And during the growing crisis (as in April 2018) forces are building up ...
            Question: And the author is absolutely sure that the cowboy "Johnny Warner" was not at gunpoint at a thread of "Barsik" from the animal division !? Eastern Middle-earth has always been grazed by our 971s. Therefore, it is not a fact that "John" was not on the "Kukan". And that changes a lot.


            SURE.
            For the ratio of detection capabilities (even with "something new" to "Skat-3") and noise is simply disproportionate.
            And what "KUKAN"? THAN?!? USET-80 ???? GIP-1 and MG-34? Or the same unfortunate "Vista"?

            7. The phrase is striking - "But in the valiant navy, a bolt was hammered into the" bare ass "(somehow ambiguous! Bully)
            By this, the author casts doubt on the measures to check the absence of tracking you! And for some reason he thinks that the boat is on a straight course, without flaps and listening to its aft corners. It is not checked on the foot in the "silence" mode, but only is saved by "Furious Ivan" ... Which is also not true.


            It is enough that the acc. It is high time to rip out articles of TRPL from it. Due to the TOTAL USEFULNESS. By the way, the enemy loves to track not from the stern, from a completely different direction.
            In addition, this is not about tracking but about a torpedo ATTACK. Taking into account the size of the "blind sector", "drive" a torpedo there ELEMENTALLY

            8. The article mentions that J. Warner did shoot his 6 CRBDs along the shore ... And what, he remained "invisible" for the "cat" herding him !? Or amy even pooping with camomiles !?


            What are the "herding cats"?!?!? NONE OF THEM HAS BEEN MODERNIZED !!!
            The same "Coho" is NOT ON ONE OF THEM (and where there is - only because "Malachite" THEN was not there ...). What to "graze" on? On the "crutches" of new acoustics consoles?

            I have nothing against technical issues of PTZ and PLO, and the ensuing consequences ...
            BUT!!! Not everyone in black really stays in the navy. There are also bright glimpses. Look, the SRs were crying openly that they could not throw 636.3 off the tail, so they did not shoot. But they have Astyut for anti-submarine missions sharpened! An, not everything is as good as the Yankees hang on our ears over time


            WHY DO YOU REPEAT RUNNING MEDIA?!?!? It's just ACHINEA !!! Compare the speeds of submarines and diesel-electric submarines - it's still obvious!
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 8 March 2021 20: 55
              +10
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              WHY DO YOU REPEAT RUNNING MEDIA?!?!? It's just ACHINEA !!!

              Bickering and making excuses is an unattractive position, but nevertheless ... A couple of remarks about it.
              1. Maxim, your statement: - “It was about the Ka-27PS” - hardly withstands criticism.
              According to the text: "A similar assessment can be given to the Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, which should be regularly based on Project 11356 (R) frigates." As you can see, there is no talk of "PS". We are talking about the "PL" option. And the statement that 11356 went to the BS in a non-standard configuration is very doubtful. Because his standard is the Ka-27PL. Which is what you wrote above.
              Then these are your words: - "The enemy is really very afraid of our anti-ship missiles." And why would it be? If he (in the absence of the "PL") has a lead in the detection range of the PLC by 3-4 times !!!
              2. All data on ranges and type of hydrology - from personal experience at the aircraft carrier "Kiev". With 1 type of hydrology (yes, in winter, .. in the western part of the SRM), Orion saw SSBNs at 48 km. The turntables confirmed the contact, then passed on to Tymoshenko. It was with the "reverse comb" that our aircrafts caught on the submarines that emerged on the flanks from the search strip of the KPUG. Then the tactics and ranges of the beginning of their evasion from the search formation were revealed. I'm not making up anything. I do not need this, I am already old for this.
              3. About the ABC book TRPL (and TRPLK too) you can talk a lot, but this is a cancer-leading document. Therefore, we have what we have.
              4. Watch from the stern. There was no question of this. From the stern, only through the COP, the contact is made on the g / a. And it is extremely ungrateful to locate the COP. I had no doubts about the ability to drive a torpedo under the propellers from the shadow zone.
              5. No one questioned the ratio of the speeds of the submarine and submarine submarine. But the way out of the ROP is how else to look ... And in such a situation the diesel lover could well have prevented the tom from performing the BZ. How to know what was written in their command (order)?
              You can judge and dress for a long time. But without hard facts, this is all idle talk.
              Sincerely, Boa. hi
              1. timokhin-aa
                11 March 2021 20: 13
                -2
                From Maxim:

                Bickering and making excuses is an unattractive position, but nevertheless ... A couple of remarks about it.
                1. Maxim, your statement: - “It was about the Ka-27PS” - hardly withstands criticism.
                According to the text: "A similar assessment can be given to the Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, which should be regularly based on Project 11356 (R) frigates." As you can see, there is no talk of "PS". We are talking about the "PL" option. And the statement that 11356 went to the BS in a non-standard configuration is very doubtful. Because his standard is the Ka-27PL. Which is what you wrote above.


                We read carefully:
                A similar assessment can be given to the Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, which SHOULD nominally based on frigates of project 11356 (P).
                At the same time, the question remains - were they there at all?
                For too often our ships (including anti-submarine ships) go into combat with unarmed Ka-27PS search and rescue helicopters.

                Then these are your words: - "The enemy is really very afraid of our anti-ship missiles." And why would it be? If he (in the absence of the "PL") has a lead in the detection range of the PLC by 3-4 times !!!


                What MODE? 2, the subsystem of the SAC in most conditions of the range of the PLR ​​fully provides

                2. All data on ranges and type of hydrology - from personal experience at the aircraft carrier "Kiev". With 1 type of hydrology (yes, in winter, .. in the western part of the SRM), Orion saw SSBNs at 48 km. The turntables confirmed the contact, then passed on to Tymoshenko. It was with the "reverse comb" that our aircrafts caught on the submarines that emerged on the flanks from the search strip of the KPUG. Then the tactics and ranges of the beginning of their evasion from the search formation were revealed. I'm not making up anything. I do not need this, I am already old for this.


                "Personal experience" already "cancels physics"?



                Well, show me what "type 1" can be under such conditions? And in what place?
                But what really could be - PPZK. This is also possible in Barentsukh. A real example - the 2nd division "55" takes contact with a small "Ula" who got out for a communication session (or for reconnaissance) under the periscope at a distance even greater than the one you specified. Is it real? Yes - because PPZK! At the same time, the distances of contacts with our atomic "steamers" are 2-3 lower, in full accordance with physics.
                But PPZK is not "type 1" at all

                5. No one questioned the ratio of the speeds of the submarine and submarine submarine. But the way out of the ROP is how else to look ... And in such a situation the diesel lover could well have prevented the tom from performing the BZ. How to know what was written in their command (order)?


                Taking into account the fact that their ROP was ALL the eastern SPM, it is obvious that the statement about allegedly "tracking 6363 of the submarine" and even more so "disrupting the strike" is the ACHINEA of magazines stuck to their full head ... with reduced social responsibility.
      2. Bashkirkhan
        Bashkirkhan 8 March 2021 17: 47
        +2
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        And the author is sure that the cowboy "Johnny Warner" was not at gunpoint at some thread of "Barsik" from the animal division !? Eastern Middle-earth has always been grazed by our 971s.

        In 2018, only Gepard and Kuzbass were on the move. The rest of the snow leopards were on VTG, average repairs or in the water area of ​​factories awaiting repairs.
      3. codetalker
        codetalker 8 March 2021 17: 57
        +1
        Thank you very much for such a detailed and informative comment.
        Not everyone in black really stays in the navy. There are also bright glimpses.

        I want to note that VO publishes a lot of critical materials on the topic of the Navy. And this is good, a lot of quality work, this is a worthy form of civic engagement. But I think it's time for the authors to change their tone a little. This will increase the efficiency of their work. Previously, the question was, will Russia have a navy? Now it is obvious that the Russian Navy has and will develop! It is not yet clear in what capacity and in what time frame it will be.
        In this regard, all this consistent criticism is useful, but it's time to stop writing articles, starting with "Everything is lost!" ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          8 March 2021 18: 41
          +2
          But I think it's time for the authors to change their tone a little. This will increase the efficiency of their work. Previously, the question was, will Russia have a navy? Now it is obvious that the Russian Navy has and will develop! It is not yet clear in what capacity and in what time frame it will be.


          This is at stake.
          https://topwar.ru/176856-morskaja-vojna-porazhenie-revoljucija-i-smert.html

          There is something to be nervous about, if that. Moreover, the clock is already ticking.
          1. codetalker
            codetalker 8 March 2021 18: 59
            +1
            Totally agree with you. I recommend submitting your valuable materials so that they do not fall into the category of "alien information intrusion" from people (parts). This will increase the efficiency of your useful work, for which I sincerely thank you!
  • Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 8 March 2021 09: 48
    +6
    A very informative and objective article. It is outrageous that with open sabotage and sabotage, no tangible measures are taken to correct such a pernicious and dangerous situation.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 8 March 2021 10: 26
    +6
    I immediately guessed by the name who the author is, thanks to the distinguished Maxim Klimov for posing the question. There are two types of employees, 1 enthusiasts are inventors 2 careerists are scoundrels intriguers, the former make efforts to the cause, the latter gradually take all leading positions, and cut, interfere with work, squeeze out promising employees around them are afraid of losing the feeding trough knowing their incompetence. Unfortunately, in the navy it was both under the tsar and under the USSR and now, Admiral Makarov was squeezed out for his wise ideas about Esmeralda, because "the British do not do that", and even the traitors blew him up along with the battleship, as well as then General Kondratenko, everywhere betrayal and deception ... the result of tsushima. Careerists Haller and Kuznetsov squeezed out Dushenov and his supporters, the result is useless battleships and crew in the infantry ... and apparently Klimov was also squeezed into KAP 3, the admirals do not consider him theirs, he interferes with sawing and gets confused with his desire to make the fleet combat-ready .. where to get Potemkin so that he can place the Ushakovs everywhere? And Marinesco was cap 3, apparently cap 3, cap 2 is this an extreme position for an honest officer? Even tuit on VO is full of participants who are not able to think, but stubbornly stupidly and meanly minus everyone, because they are used to taking in a crowd and squeezing out a competitor, they are unable to create anything ..... " He did not consider us as Germans, - Chatsky asks bitterly and adds: Who is the enemy of the discharged persons, pretentious, curly words, In whose, unfortunately, head Five, six there are healthy thoughts And he dares to declare them publicly, - Look ... Chatsky did not finish, but even without that it is clear what he wanted to say. Everyone who does not want to live in blind imitation of empty foreign customs, who dares to voice his opinion out loud, contrary to generally accepted norms, risks being expelled from society and becoming insane in his eyes "... ... what to do? First, to reduce the useless CFL Baltic Fleet and the Japanese Sea Fleet, these reservoirs are shallow and small for modern naval weapons, to strengthen the Northern Fleet Kamchatka and the Black Sea Fleet (but the cruiser to the north). Secondly, not to stamp the hulls, but to create modern stuffing for minesweepers, submarines, Airplanes and frigates with corvettes. After all, the main task of the NK is the PLO of the coastal zone, and if it is not there, then corvettes and frigates are simply useless, stupid blanks and an attached engine ..
    1. Andrey Mishin
      Andrey Mishin 10 March 2021 04: 11
      0
      And really, what's the point of keeping NK in the Baltic? They are needed on the Northern Fleet to protect SSBNs.
  • Elturisto
    Elturisto 8 March 2021 10: 47
    -2
    Thanks to the author for the work. Interesting article. However, it is not entirely clear what to do with all this.
  • stels_07
    stels_07 8 March 2021 10: 48
    -5
    On Abramovich's yacht, ptz is more serious ...
  • Usher
    Usher 8 March 2021 11: 07
    -9
    A lot of gag. How does he know what the US wanted?
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 14: 39
      -1
      From their words. The article says.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 8 March 2021 15: 04
        -6
        "In their words. The article says." Probably OBS.
        1. timokhin-aa
          8 March 2021 15: 13
          +2
          Your personal opinion is especially valuable today.
  • iouris
    iouris 8 March 2021 11: 12
    -1
    The industrial-military complex is working very hard, people literally fall from fatigue, but we have from it only what we have.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 8 March 2021 11: 16
    -22%
    We have the best anti-torpedo weapons in the world: 1500 nuclear warheads. In the modern world, there is no defense against the United States, Russia, China, there is only the horror of a global war.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 8 March 2021 12: 31
      -16%
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      We have the best anti-torpedo weapons in the world: 1500 nuclear warheads.

      Absolutely, just some compassionate sufferers for our combat readiness still cannot understand this. And people like Klimov and Timokhin speculate on the ignorance of most of our capabilities, our military doctrine and the nature of operational actions at the slightest sign of preparation for a nuclear strike by our potential adversary. That is why hysterics out of the blue - how can we do without torpedo attacks, this contradicts the stupidity that they have hammered into their heads.
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      In the modern world, there is no defense against the United States, Russia, China, there is only the horror of a global war.

      I would say that for today and until 2030 we have one enemy, and this is the United States, and China is not so dangerous for us yet, we surpass it in our combat capabilities, which means that these two threats are not equal. The US is experiencing more horror before a global war than we do - this has long been known, since the days of the secretaries general.
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 14: 41
        +1
        I would say that for the current period and until 2030, we have one enemy, and this is the United States.


        You should see the ensign with whom we are really fighting right now, but your playful fingers would be clamped somewhere. Not to write nonsense on the Internet.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 8 March 2021 16: 58
          -7
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Would you like a warrant officer, who we are really fighting with right now,

          This is a typical example of amateurish reasoning of illiterate journalists - we have not yet fought as expected, for all the time after the Great Patriotic War. But various laymen from the verbiage journalists did not understand this, so they build their wet fantasies from not understanding what the Russian army is and how it should fight.
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          yes, their playful fingers would be clamped somewhere.

          It's time for such talkers as Timokhin and Klimov to pinch their fingers, otherwise they will strongly discredit them.
          1. timokhin-aa
            8 March 2021 18: 33
            0
            Warrant officer, ay, our Armed Forces fight in wars, what does it mean "they did not fight as it should be"? What tasks the country faces, they are solved.

            You tie up with a heavy weight.
        2. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 9 March 2021 09: 06
          -4
          What's nonsense? An article about the navy, not about local wars. And yet, yes, Russia still has one real enemy with which the fleet may face with the use of torpedoes, and this is the United States with slaves.
          1. Aag
            Aag 9 March 2021 16: 26
            -1
            Quote: Victor Sergeev
            What's nonsense? An article about the navy, not about local wars. And yet, yes, Russia still has one real enemy with which the fleet may face with the use of torpedoes, and this is the United States with slaves.

            "... Russia still has one real enemy with which the fleet may face with the use of torpedoes, and this is the United States with slaves ..."
            That is not enough ??? Though the United States, even though the "slaves" separately.
            1. Viktor Sergeev
              Viktor Sergeev 9 March 2021 20: 44
              0
              No, slaves from NATO will not fight without a master.
              1. Aag
                Aag 9 March 2021 22: 21
                -1
                Quote: Victor Sergeev
                No, slaves from NATO will not fight without a master.

                Let it be so ... But do they have the strength of the means? (And as experts say, not joking ..) And, you see, history suggests that the camps of the allies of the enemies can strongly mimic depending on the alignment of forces.
                1. Viktor Sergeev
                  Viktor Sergeev 10 March 2021 12: 29
                  0
                  They have the strength and the means, France and Britain, and if anything they will sit at home and shake, because they understand: you rock the boat, the rocket will fly, although you won't rock the boat anyway, if a war breaks out.
                  1. Aag
                    Aag 10 March 2021 15: 26
                    -1
                    Quote: Victor Sergeev
                    They have the strength and the means, France and Britain, and if anything they will sit at home and shake, because they understand: you rock the boat, the rocket will fly, although you won't rock the boat anyway, if a war breaks out.

                    Without a desire to offend, please rate the priority of targets for ICBMs of the Strategic Missile Forces .. I hope the General Staff draws the correct conclusions to assess priority targets. It seems that this is not easy. Both strategically, tactically ... and technically. Well, in peacetime, for the Strategic Missile Forces, I will calm down, the process of re-targeting takes a few minutes (according to the developed goals) ...
                    1. Viktor Sergeev
                      Viktor Sergeev 10 March 2021 19: 14
                      -1
                      Priority is simple to madness: command centers, missile defense, capitals, troop locations, and the remnants of the largest cities in terms of declining population. There is no need to retarget. If a massive blow is coming at us, then the targets have been determined, there is simply no time for reflection, it is necessary to hit before the enemy missiles start falling, the reaction time is minutes.
                      1. Aag
                        Aag 10 March 2021 19: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        Priority is simple to madness: command centers, missile defense, capitals, troop locations, and the remnants of the largest cities in terms of declining population. There is no need to retarget. If a massive blow is coming at us, then the targets have been determined, there is simply no time for reflection, it is necessary to hit before the enemy missiles start falling, the reaction time is minutes.

                        How simple it is for you!
                        And what a bad command post, ZKP Strategic Missile Forces of all links every day (!), Or even several times (!!!) work out strikes with a change of targets, areas?
                      2. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev 10 March 2021 19: 58
                        0
                        The purpose of the Strategic Missile Forces is to strike before the first blow is received, but not everything is perfect, for this the system of the "Dead Hand" type serves. Why change positions? And then, that mobile complexes are very vulnerable in places of constant location, they are easy to suppress, mine missiles are more protected and more missiles are allocated for their destruction. No matter how they crawled around the country, the targets in the missiles are still the same.
                      3. Aag
                        Aag 10 March 2021 20: 24
                        -1
                        Quote: Victor Sergeev
                        The purpose of the Strategic Missile Forces is to strike before the first blow is received, but not everything is perfect, for this the system of the "Dead Hand" type serves. Why change positions? And then, that mobile complexes are very vulnerable in places of constant location, they are easy to suppress, mine missiles are more protected and more missiles are allocated for their destruction. No matter how they crawled around the country, the targets in the missiles are still the same.

                        Sorry ... Let's save each other's time? What are you trying to tell me? (Or prove how it should be).
                        I tell you, as far as possible, how it was (on "Pioneers", "Topols"), and how (for sure) it is on "Yars" ...
  • Aag
    Aag 8 March 2021 19: 52
    -2
    Quote: Victor Sergeev
    We have the best anti-torpedo weapons in the world: 1500 nuclear warheads.

    Absolutely, just some compassionate sufferers for our combat readiness still cannot understand this .......
    Let's not forget that the United States also has about 1500 deployed nuclear warheads, while NATO countries have more advanced anti-missile defense, anti-aircraft defense, submarines, a disproportionately large fleet, YES ...
    In such conditions, the situation when the developers of the military-industrial complex, gnawing at arbitration courts, no longer looks like a symptom, but as a serious diagnosis. So close to the conclusion of a pathologist ...
    1. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 9 March 2021 09: 12
      0
      You're not right. Courts are a normal, civilized way of resolving a dispute. I do not forget that the United States has almost the same number of nuclear warheads and that is what I meant when I spoke about the most powerful anti-torpedo weapons. The analysis carried out by the Pentagon showed that any clash between the United States and Russia, on almost any scale, develops into a global nuclear war, and if there is anything left of Russia, then the United States will be almost completely destroyed. The disappearance of Russia and the United States will automatically entail a global war of all against all, since the main counterbalances will disappear, and the contradictions will remain. China will trample on Taiwan, Japan and India, Pakistan will rush there, the use of nuclear weapons will go, the Arabs will cling to each other, Iran with Israel and off we go. Only Africa can survive.
      1. timokhin-aa
        9 March 2021 10: 32
        +3
        Moreover, if there is still something left of Russia, the United States will be almost completely destroyed.


        Are you sure you got nothing wrong? In general, all calculations show the opposite.
        1. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 9 March 2021 20: 45
          -1
          The American ones show exactly this, since the territory of the United States is smaller, plus the ocean, tsunami. Can you tell me whose show the opposite?
      2. Aag
        Aag 9 March 2021 11: 00
        +2
        "... Courts are a normal, civilized way of resolving a dispute ..."
        Of course. Only not in the case about which the author writes. Even if we leave out the ethical and moral components, then what about the observance of the secrecy regime?
        "... Pentagon analysis showed ..."
        To whom did you show it? Who ordered the "analysis"? What is a "collision"?
        In short ... That is, you are convinced that as long as there are Russian strategic nuclear forces, the sovereignty of the Russian Federation, military personnel of the Russian Federation are not in danger?
        By the way, the discussion of strategic nuclear forces has flared up on the next branch. Try to insert there the "analysis carried out by the Pentagon" cited by you, in my opinion, there it is more appropriate (and no less controversial ...)
  • Aag
    Aag 8 March 2021 22: 35
    +1
    "... while China is not so dangerous for us yet, we surpass it in our combat capabilities ..."
    Dear (from some previous discussions on VO) ccsr!
    Allow me to ask why such conclusions come from? I am about superiority ... That is not dangerous, (conditionally), perhaps, for now, I agree. As long as the United States (respectively, NATO) considers China, Russia (namely in this order ...).
    Well, and in order not to waste time ... Further in the text you wrote, sublimating that the Strategic Missile Forces are OUR ALL. (Yes, I agree, in terms of an extreme argument, for lack of a better one.) But, roughly, a sledgehammer will never replace a locksmith , the hammer of the clock!
    And more ... Since you have served almost a dozen years longer than me in the Strategic Missile Forces, do you really not know about unresolved issues, problems, excesses? .. The main of which - "There will be no war!"
    There will be no war until everyone is ready for it!
    1. Aag
      Aag 8 March 2021 22: 52
      0
      More ... Don't you think that with such a defense concept, it will be enough to "bury" super-powerful charges on the territory of the Russian Federation (Kaliningrad, Rostov, Arkhangelsk, Irkutsk, or Krasnoyarsk, Vladivostok, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky), and this will calm down?
      1. timokhin-aa
        9 March 2021 10: 32
        +2
        And these theorists end up with such charges.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 47
        +1
        Quote: AAG
        More ... Don't you think that with such a defense concept, it will be enough to "bury" super-powerful charges on the territory of the Russian Federation (Kaliningrad, Rostov, Arkhangelsk, Irkutsk, or Krasnoyarsk, Vladivostok, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky), and this will calm down?

        It’s strange why it occurred to you, especially since the NATO officials abandoned it back in the 60s of the last century, when wells for nuclear mines were created on the FRG border.
        We need a completely different strategy, and it is to move our missile armies of the Strategic Missile Forces as far inland as possible, and it is from there that our main nuclear strike will have to be delivered. The question of the percentage ratio of mobile and mine installations should be decided by our commander-in-chief, based primarily on reliability, secrecy of management and maintenance costs.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 15
      0
      Quote: AAG
      Let me ask you why these conclusions come from?

      Based on the total nuclear charge of our Armed Forces, the size of the territory and population density of China, and on the superiority of our carriers of nuclear weapons.

      Quote: AAG
      Further in the text you wrote, sublimating, that the Strategic Missile Forces are OUR EVERYTHING.

      It would be strange if any of the sane people doubted this.

      Quote: AAG
      But, roughly, a sledgehammer will never replace a locksmith, watch hammer!

      All the same, the question is about priorities, and whether we need conventional weapons in the quantities that are available now, and it would not be better to make some correction of the structure of our armed forces.
      Quote: AAG
      Since you have served almost a dozen years longer than me in the Strategic Missile Forces,

      I have not served in the Strategic Missile Forces for a day, but I know very well what they are most afraid of in the United States, which is why I think that this is our main weapon.
      Quote: AAG
      There will be no war until everyone is ready for it!

      Interestingly, we really have one of the best readiness for war in the Strategic Missile Forces - this has been laid in them since Soviet times. I think now they keep the brand, because the Americans are still afraid of us.
      1. Aag
        Aag 9 March 2021 16: 37
        0
        Let me ask you why such conclusions come from? ______

        "... Based on the total nuclear charge of our Armed Forces, the size of the territory and population density of China, and on the superiority of our carriers of nuclear weapons ...."
        Why are you all the time grabbing a nuclear club?)))
        Initially, it was about conventional weapons.
        Are you not confused by the size of the population, the Armed Forces, China, their motivation, the economy? ...
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 9 March 2021 17: 44
          0
          Quote: AAG
          Why are you all the time grabbing a nuclear club?)))

          Do you propose to fight with China by conventional means? Their mob-reserve back in Soviet times was the same as our entire adult population of the country is now.

          Quote: AAG
          Initially, it was about conventional weapons.

          Leave it to the journalists - they love to suck on these topics, and military professionals look at all this with a grin.
          Quote: AAG
          Are you not confused by the size of the population, the Armed Forces, China, their motivation, the economy? ...

          It is precisely because of this that it will not be possible to fight with them by conventional means - this is obvious.
          1. Aag
            Aag 9 March 2021 19: 37
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: AAG
            Why are you all the time grabbing a nuclear club?)))

            Do you propose to fight with China by conventional means? Their mob-reserve back in Soviet times was the same as our entire adult population of the country is now.

            Quote: AAG
            Initially, it was about conventional weapons.

            Leave it to the journalists - they love to suck on these topics, and military professionals look at all this with a grin.
            Quote: AAG
            Are you not confused by the size of the population, the Armed Forces, China, their motivation, the economy? ...

            It is precisely because of this that it will not be possible to fight with them by conventional means - this is obvious.

            Sorry, I cannot (in time) answer each of your theses point by point (it seems that we have already confused the entire thread, both in chronology and in meaning) ...
            What a radical you are ...)))
            1.If you have a substantive conversation (see my comment above, below, - I don’t know, please be guided by time, if interested ...), who do you count as military specialists? (I confess, I would be very puzzled by such a question. ..maybe that's why I'm not linking to them?).
            2. Excuse me, but you wrote about the superiority of Russian military power over China. If you meant nuclear power (it seems that it will not last long), it would be worth clarifying. And after serving for some time in the most eastern formations of the Strategic Missile Forces, I cannot claim that some of the nuclear warheads were intended for China.
            Once again I repeat: sometimes, often, more often (I haven't heard of nuclear ones yet, thank God ...), you need to demonstrate military force in local conflicts, with conventional weapons. You zealously rebel against him. (Or I’m wrong about you.) understand?)
            ... IMHO: The Armed Forces should be built on the basis of the goals and tasks assigned to them (in an extremely positive case, they, the Armed Forces, may not be needed at all, - the totalitarian dependence of all opponents on the financial, banking system, ideology, technological dependence ...) Are there some similarities? Sorry, I'm going beyond the scope of the article under discussion ... hi
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 9 March 2021 20: 51
              -1
              Quote: AAG
              .If you meant nuclear power (it looks like it will not last long), it would be worth clarifying.

              It's obvious, it's strange that you didn't think about it. I wonder why you decided that soon China will overtake us in this.
              Quote: AAG
              Yes, and having served for some time in the easternmost formations of the Strategic Missile Forces, I cannot say that some of the nuclear warheads were intended for China.

              I also cannot say that nothing has changed since that time, as well as the fact that not everything could be brought to you about actions during the threatened period.
              Quote: AAG
              ) it is required to demonstrate military strength in local conflicts with conventional weapons.

              And in the end, to lose personnel, as in the same Syria? My compatriots are dearer to me than all foreigners put together, that is why I believe that we should not allow military clashes where our people may die. Missile weapons of various bases are enough to help someone, but no more - I adhere to this position.
              Quote: AAG
              . You zealously rebel against him. (Or did I misunderstand you?)

              I am not against it, I, on the contrary, so that I can trade as much as possible. But we must stop playing by the rules that are not beneficial to us - maintaining a large amount of conventional weapons is not only costly, but will not solve any problems in our confrontation with the United States and China. This means that the structure of all the armed forces must be changed.
      2. Aag
        Aag 9 March 2021 18: 18
        +1
        Further in the text you wrote, sublimating, that the Strategic Missile Forces are OUR ALL .______

        "... It would be strange if one of the sane people doubted this ..." ______
        The Strategic Missile Forces is our last chance, a strong deterrent. Yes!
        But not capable of solving the whole range of tasks facing the Armed Forces.
        Apparently, from your point of view, I'm insane.
        How did the Strategic Missile Forces help in Ossetia, SAR, Karabakh, or did our guys not die there?
        This also applies to the issue of conventional weapons ...
        "... Interestingly, but we really have one of the best readiness for war in the Strategic Missile Forces - this has been laid in them since Soviet times. I think they keep their mark now, because the Americans are still afraid of us ..."
        Readiness for war is a very broad concept. If we talk about BG (combat readiness), of course, the Strategic Missile Forces are the highest in the RF Armed Forces.
        ... If the conflict does not start by the usual means ... And, say, will the submarine from the Mediterranean not get in touch at the appointed time? Or will a corvette on a mine be blown up? I strongly doubt it !!
        But comrades Klimov and Timokhin are writing to you about this ... From their bell tower, and I, with mine, will inform you - PGRK (and missile regiments of OS, mines) will not be able to maintain combat readiness for use in a large-scale conflict for a long time. funds, if we do not have enough of such funds! And you want to reduce them, cut them? What will we reduce? Air defense? -So Yarsa, even from Vulcan, ATGM, -yes, you can reset to zero by any means of aviation working on the surface!
        Motorized riflemen? - (for each starting battery of "Topol", in case of military danger, their company was assigned according to the plan, plus a DShB platoon, with its own standard equipment, weapons ...) In the 90s, even tanks rolled into Drovyanoy for exercises! A separate engineer battalion provided the movement of all this iron bypassing "destroyed" roads, through a network of branched rivers and streams ...
        Whom else will we cut? VSK? Electronic warfare?
        Please understand, finally, that the Strategic Missile Forces is not a thing in itself!
        Before Serdyukov's optimization, the missile division (29th) consisted of 22-24 separate units, including a separate helicopter squadron, all-centrally subordinate, of which only 8 were purely missilemen (4-rp, KP, PZKP, TRB, RTB) The rest is all kinds of security. And this is in peacetime! ...
        .... Regarding the "keep the brand" ... (((
        Of course, I would like to believe it. So calmer ... But, somehow, with the facts, not very ... (No, I do not have the goal of offending the current employees, - often, it is not their fault that such a situevina has developed.). not about my observations (the division headquarters is visible from the window), - just remember the articles here, on the VO: about a high-ranking corrupt official from the Strategic Missile Forces, and about an older spy detained by the FSB. (((
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 9 March 2021 20: 02
          0
          Quote: AAG
          How did the Strategic Missile Forces help in Ossetia, SAR, Karabakh, or did our guys not die there?

          Was it an attack on our country by the United States or China?
          Quote: AAG
          . And, say, will the submarine from the Mediterranean not get in touch at the appointed time? Or will a corvette on a mine be blown up?

          That is why the nuclear safety of our country cannot be trusted to the fleet - in a critical situation we can lose control of the ships, or they can simply be destroyed and we will not know the reasons, as was the case with the Kursk. Why then should we rely on the maritime component if we cannot guarantee its use in a crisis situation.

          Quote: AAG
          I, with mine, will inform you that the PGRK (and the missile regiments of the OS, mines) will not be able to maintain combat readiness for use in conditions of a large-scale conflict by conventional means for a long time, if we do not have enough such means!

          Why will we have to fight by conventional means with the USA or NATO? I don't remember being taught this. This means that the Strategic Missile Forces will have time to release their missiles at any start of the war - this has been laid since the time of their creation.
          Quote: AAG
          Motorized riflemen? - (for each starting battery of "Topol", in case of military danger, their company was assigned according to the plan, plus a platoon of DShB, with its own standard equipment, weapons ...).

          This nonsense, which some of our theorists pushed through in order to justify the maintenance of a large number of ground forces, and this is unreasonable.
          Quote: AAG
          Please understand, finally, that the Strategic Missile Forces is not a thing in itself!

          Understand, too, that we have a strategic part of the armed forces, but there is an ordinary one, which does not make sense to keep in the form that some narrow-minded commanders are trying to impose on us. And this strategic component does not include the surface fleet, and therefore the groans of Timokhin and Klimov from the same opera when we dreamed of the ocean dominion of the Soviet fleet. The time is not right, and the country is no longer the same, and the experience of the past turned out to be unsuccessful - the country was lost.
          Quote: AAG
          .... Regarding the "keep the brand" ... (((
          Of course, I would like to believe it. It's so calmer ...

          Well, not everything is rotten here - I believe in those who replaced us. Moreover, new rocket systems are emerging and this makes me happy.
          1. Aag
            Aag 9 March 2021 22: 15
            0
            Izyainite, I want to swear ... I look out the window, I understand that if I were now the commander of the Yars, without preliminary engineering preparation of routes, field positions, I would hardly have completed the dispersal mission ... Well, if only they would work on my one APU (autonomous launcher), in extreme cases, for a division (3 APU), a regiment (9 APU), with the available forces and means, they would not have pulled out for sure! ...
            Somehow tired of walking in circles ... About motorized riflemen ... Even according to data outdated by 25 years, it is enough for a DRGeshnik 6 km to approach an APU of the "Topol" type ("Yars" is not very different in this regard) in order to disarm it, at least ! ...
            So, briefly on your comment ...
            If not the US, not China, so what? No need to answer ?!
            As for the nuclear triad of the Russian Federation ... Perhaps I agree ... The air, underwater components are desirable, but under the current state of affairs they are ineffective (which does not mean that it is not worth working on this!)
            Further, about "nonsense" (from your point of view, I don't know how you justify it ...) I wrote to you sincerely, and, I think, quite justifiably (if you, of course, have some idea of ​​the tactics of combined arms combat .. .)
            About the "groans of Timokhin, Klimov" ....
            You can, of course, treat differently ... Personally, I, not that with understanding, - with pain. I already wrote about this on the resource ... With pain because there were no such guys, men in Strategic Missile Forces (think there is nothing to get excited about?) ...
            Yes, they do not dream of "sea dominion" (yes, even if so, to shorten the dominion, but take measures!)
            It is not the Navy's fault that the country (the Superpower has been lost!) ...
            Regarding, not everything is rotten here ...
            I would like to believe, colleague (sorry for the familiarity. ,,) Alas ... Try to find unity even among those who lived in adulthood under the USSR!
            Here we are with you, it seems that we did not find a common point of view ...))) I tried ...
            Well, of course, I can ask - in which regiment did they serve ?!
            So, a sketch, a sketch of a cut of society: February 23 of this year: a commercial company, wholesales of benzo-electric tools, a corporate event: out of 20 male employees, -5 reserve officers of the Strategic Missile Forces, one c-t (from the same division) , four sergeants (VV, PV, SV, air defense,), four conscripts, three - "jackets" from the military departments of universities, respectively, - three, something like a family, then they just honestly admitted that they bought a military ID ... Yes! Of the servicemen (conscripts), two are members of the DB. One in Transnistria was captured by a line, the other, already in a cop, on a business trip, Chechnya presented two bullets in a single battle ...
            Why did all this "nagged"? And, yes, you inspired me about the new generation in which you believe! (Sorry, it looks like you can't agree with yours, though, like me sometimes ...)))).
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 9 March 2021 22: 43
              -1
              Quote: AAG
              Even according to data obsolete for 25 years, it is enough for a DRGeshnik to get 6 km closer to an APU of the "Topol" type ("Yars" is not very different in this regard) in order to disarm it, at least! ...
              So, briefly on your comment ...

              Do you have any idea how you can get to you at our distances, and what one or two groups can do for all Strategic Missile Forces?
              Quote: AAG
              If not the US, not China, so what? No need to answer ?!

              I didn't quite understand the question. But keep in mind that no one attacks us, except the crazy Saakashvili. All of our last losses are due to our geopolitics, and not due to the fact that someone risked attacking us. To defeat any enemy not from NATO, we only need to attack 5-7 strategic aircraft with conventional missiles in the capital of this state, and this is all over. And these aircraft will not even need to enter the enemy's air defense zone. But for such a decision, we need to be really threatened or launched hostilities against us.

              Quote: AAG
              About the "groans of Timokhin, Klimov" ....

              They have a kind of petty-minded approach, and moreover, it reeks of cheap populism. I did not see anything serious with them.
              Quote: AAG
              Here we are with you, it seems that we have not found a common point of view ...

              Different views, which are due to different visions of the problems of the modern army - I do not see this as a tragedy.
              Quote: AAG
              Well, of course, I can ask - in which regiment did they serve ?!

              We didn’t have regiments, and we didn’t even have a banner, although in a small town there were officers like in a deployed division. By the way, there were graduates from Serpukhov, Rostov, and Dzerzhinka - this is your contingent, some came after serving in the Strategic Missile Forces.

              Quote: AAG
              And, yes, you inspired me about the new generation in which you believe!

              I am always invited to the jubilee of the unit, and moreover, at veteran meetings I communicate with those who serve - normal officers, I did not notice the indifference. And I believe them.
              1. Aag
                Aag 9 March 2021 22: 59
                -1
                Let me try to answer you tomorrow ... I have to get up at work in three hours ... (somehow the Moscow Region pension, contrary to all the promises of those in power, does not compensate ... yes, practically nothing ...)
                By the way, maybe this is the whole point of our confrontation with you?)))
                Like, just kidding ...
                hi
              2. Aag
                Aag 12 March 2021 15: 26
                0
                Sorry, no answer earlier ...
                Quote: AAG
                Even according to data obsolete for 25 years, it is enough for a DRGeshnik to get 6 km closer to an APU of the "Topol" type ("Yars" is not very different in this regard) in order to disarm it, at least! ...
                So, briefly on your comment ...

                "Do you have any idea how it is possible to reach you at our distances, and what one or two groups can do for all Strategic Missile Forces?"
                I can imagine very well. And this makes it uneasy ... Even more worrisome is the moment that many (including those who are called on duty to ensure the security of the PGRK) reason the same way as you, the border is far away, the enemy will be stopped before us .. ...
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 12 March 2021 20: 15
                  0
                  Quote: AAG
                  Even according to data obsolete for 25 years, it is enough for a DRGeshnik to get 6 km closer to an APU of the "Topol" type ("Yars" is not very different in this regard) in order to disarm it, at least! ...

                  I’ll tell you that even in Europe, where the distances are very tiny, even our commandos found it problematic to reach the main NATO command centers without aviation. So go down to earth - they'll be worn out to get to our launchers if they use traditional methods.
                  Quote: AAG
                  Even more worrisome is the moment that many (including those who are called on duty to ensure the security of the PGRK) reason in the same way as you, the border is far away, the enemy will be stopped before us ...

                  The fact is that such an operation by NATO forces will not go unnoticed for us, which means that it will immediately reveal the true goals of this bloc. And they know very well about this, so they are unlikely to choose such a scenario for unleashing a nuclear war. But we need to keep our ears open.
                  1. Aag
                    Aag 12 March 2021 20: 57
                    0
                    Thank you for your prompt response. I can't always reciprocate ...
                    They will not act using "traditional" methods (under which O&O are sharpened at the very least.) If, of course, they want to achieve a result.
                    The "true" goals and objectives of the foe have been known for a long time, since the times of the USSR.
                    I think, excuse me for seditious thoughts, that goal-setting secretly radically changed. What is theirs, what is "our" leadership ...
      3. Vladimir Rostovsky
        Vladimir Rostovsky 10 March 2021 13: 07
        0
        Fucking! The inability of the country's leadership to control developments in the "right" direction, the inaction of the competent authorities, the lobbying of their own vested interests by individuals to the detriment of the security of the state and the lives of people - comrade ccsr prefers not to notice the aforementioned problems, some points with which he essentially disagrees, unlike " Boa "does not comment, because he has no specific knowledge.
        The question is not in the number of conventional weapons or the priority of any kind of troops, but in the fact that the existing ships and submarines are equipped with adequate weapons and with "oddities" that prevent this, and for some reason you are telling with aplomb that to hell with them with torpedoes, PLO etc. we have the Strategic Missile Forces and, if anything, the whole world is in dust.
        For some reason, I am sure that if it smells of fried, there will be some kind of local conflict with unacceptable losses in this direction, then we will give in, than sacrifice the whole country - the Strategic Missile Forces is a weapon of the last chance, when there is nothing to lose, and before that there is a lot what can be sacrificed in order to avoid a global war.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 10 March 2021 18: 19
          0
          Quote: Vladimir Rostovsky
          The issue is not about the number of conventional weapons

          And what then?
          Quote: Vladimir Rostovsky
          but that the existing ships and submarines are equipped with adequate weapons and with "oddities" that prevent this,

          Are you sure we need all the ships we have? I strongly doubt this, especially since at one time battleships were also cut in favor of the creation of the Strategic Missile Forces. And it was the right decision, although it had enough opponents even then.
          Quote: Vladimir Rostovsky
          That is why I am sure that if it smells like fried, there will be some local conflict with unacceptable losses in this direction,

          And you describe a real scenario of such a "local conflict" with the introduction of the enemy who dares to do so in order to understand the course of your thoughts. Well, at least how do you imagine it, and at the same time let us know why we do not have enough forces and means without a fleet so that we can immediately end such a "local conflict".
          Quote: Vladimir Rostovsky
          and before that, a lot of things can be sacrificed in order to avoid a global war.

          I didn’t say that we are simply obliged to start a nuclear war for some trifle - if in the Cuban Missile Crisis there was enough intelligence not to bring it up, then why are the current leaders unable to avoid it?
  • timokhin-aa
    8 March 2021 14: 40
    +8
    But the Turks didn't get scared in 2015, right? And Zelensky is not afraid to send saboteurs into our territory ..
    How did you decide that if these are not afraid, then the United States will be scared?
  • timokhin-aa
    8 March 2021 20: 17
    +6
    There is no horror. Nobody believes that we will apply all this in response to one ship.
    Simply because we had a Kursk, a Su-24M, an Israeli setup with an Il-20, and we did not use it.
    Why suddenly, in response to a frigate, which no one even began to finish off, we suddenly apply? In the "Military Doctrine" about the use of nuclear weapons, what is written, eh?
  • Disant
    Disant 8 March 2021 23: 51
    -5
    We have the best anti-torpedo weapons in the world: 1500 nuclear warheads

    320 of them are TOTAL on FIVE carriers, and about the same - on the five remaining ones. that is, only 10 targets - and there is no third of the charges that are most difficult to intercept.
    .
    The Strategic Missile Forces will fire from positional areas and their trajectories have been calculated, anti-satellite weapons in the form of new missiles are on the way for the next five years, and the missile carriers are ready in sufficient numbers.
    .
    You just need to quickly equip strategic aviation, which will be concentrated on several airfields, and fly somewhere.
    .
    Poseidon carriers also need protection, which you neglect.
    You still have a dozen vanguards in your trump cards.
    1. Disant
      Disant 9 March 2021 00: 12
      -2
      after an exchange of strikes, the US submarine and surface fleet, thanks to its mobility, will basically survive and be able to recharge and retain its nuclear potential.
      1. House 25 Sq. 380
        House 25 Sq. 380 11 March 2021 02: 25
        -1
        And why, what will he do with this potential?
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman 8 March 2021 11: 24
    0
    Criticizing lagging behind is certainly useful for military development. But the lag in some systems by 5-6 years is not so critical for the results of a REAL war. F117 overtook Serbian air defense for 30-40 years over Serbia, but this did not help him.
    Did the Yankees think that in response to the attack on our base, we would be looking hard for a specific submarine? In fact, in this situation, they drown everyone who gets under the arm and beat on the bases of the aggressor! This fantasy is akin to a "limited nuclear conflict", we will not figure out who hit personally - all the participants from that side will be shocked.
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 14: 42
      +6
      We have a lag of about 70 years in anti-submarine aviation, about 45 in PTZ, and about 50 in torpedoes due to control systems.

      And not only from the United States, but from any country with non-Russian technology. Not too much, with our military spending?
  • Sergey Kulikov_3
    Sergey Kulikov_3 8 March 2021 13: 30
    +4
    Again 25. Judging by this: "What to do? First of all, start to conduct objective tests, comprehensive development of new CLOs and SRS. There is a technical reserve, there are specialists for this."
    As in that rhyme: "Oh, those that you sent last week, We ate a long time ago."
    Give me a lot more money and everything will change at once, all submarines will become good, all counter-torpedoes will be excellent, and the sun will sparkle as rays reflecting in a glass of cool beer in the author's hands.
    I am not a developer of submarines and their weapons, but reading the article, I immediately understood that you need to make a submarine without a wake jet and everything will immediately become a beam, and if you also pull camouflage nets over the submarine, this will give 80% to invisibility.
    After entering with the trump cards, the statement that the submarine does not see the enemies from behind (well, or does not want to see because of the natural low qualities of the captains and command), then gossip follows about what one or another well-known person in narrow circles of specialists said. And yes, all these famous people tell everyone about their problems on their word of honor that they are no longer gu-gu to anyone. All these calculations are more reminiscent of a selection of "brilliant ideas" from discussions on the forum.
    1. Scharnhorst
      Scharnhorst 8 March 2021 17: 09
      +2
      then gossip about what one or another well-known person in narrow circles of specialists said. And yes, all these famous people tell everyone about their problems on their word of honor that they are no longer gu-gu to anyone. All these calculations are more reminiscent of a selection of "brilliant ideas" from discussions on the forum

      They took it straight off the tongue. I am impressed by the author's willingness, without regard to his reputation, to prove his innocence and, regardless of the authorities, to defend his point of view. But, excuse me, the reasoning is not supported by anything. Of the numbers - only the dates and years of production of weapons samples. Advertising images from the Internet are not an argument. Quotes of behind-the-scenes revelations of offended retirees are no better than those of retirees of a potential enemy on our own resource. The widespread use of thematic jargon of especially advanced specialists and possessors of knowledge of the ultimate truth also does not paint an article with a claim to objectivity. And as before, it is not the author's ability or unwillingness to set objective priorities in building a combat-ready fleet that repels from understanding and trusting the stated. Especially disgusting are allusions to the undercover struggle and cutting budgets.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 8 March 2021 17: 39
      -9
      Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
      Give me a lot more money and everything will change at once, all submarines will become good, all counter-torpedoes will be excellent, and the sun will sparkle as rays reflecting in a glass of cool beer in the author's hands.

      Briefly, succinctly and fully reveals the true motives of the authors of these works on a free theme. For what our armed forces are preparing, their opus has no practical application - we have long been at a higher technological level in order to bother with torpedo range.
      Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
      All these calculations are more reminiscent of a selection of "brilliant ideas" from discussions on the forum.

      Moreover, I got the impression that Klimov has a large collection of photographs and texts by different authors, and based on momentary ideas, he begins to shuffle them in order to give his creations a scientific look. Although it is already clear that the level of his basic knowledge is far behind modern realities and he simply does not understand the tasks of modern armed forces. Give him free rein, he "scientifically" will substantiate that without daggers made of Damascus steel, our fleet simply will not win boarding, which means we need to order them.
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 March 2021 20: 13
        +4
        Ensign, your madness is overwhelming.
        Well, how can you compensate for the "insufficient torpedo range"?
  • nikant
    nikant 8 March 2021 14: 09
    -2
    it's time to say once again that there is no fleet ... there is a miserable semblance ... under water and on the water everything and everything is under the control of friends ... "rivet" any boats without appropriate means of protection, detection, reflection of any types of attacks and the like, is pure suicide! there is no electronics, no powerful mechanical engineering ... there is no strict control by the authorities; everywhere discord, intrigue, sawing up the people's money ... the last hope for a land nuclear component, where it is worth redirecting the last money - which has not yet been sawed at the top ... any fish rots not from the head, but from the Kremlin ... and there - not to some fleet ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 8 March 2021 15: 10
      -3
      The fleet is there, but no one will fight with it - since it can turn into a nuclear fighter at the tactical level, the US submarines have, in addition to the Russian fleet, Chinese in their opponents.
      1. Disant
        Disant 9 March 2021 00: 25
        -1
        In addition to the Russian fleet, the US submarines also have Chinese opponents.

        some of the US submarines will survive the exchange of blows and will be able to recharge.
        1. Essex62
          Essex62 9 March 2021 13: 01
          -1
          And who needs them after the exchange? What other tasks to solve, if the Red Square is glazed, who managed to dive sits in a bunker, sips Hennessy and complains about his nonsense that he started?
          1. Disant
            Disant 9 March 2021 18: 47
            0
            And who needs them after the exchange?
            ...........?!?!
            What other tasks to solve

            I tried to answer the question about China and the Chinese fleet, as I see it - about dominance in the world after the exchange of nuclear strikes.
            1. Essex62
              Essex62 10 March 2021 09: 22
              +1
              We will be all the same. Let the Chinese have a headache what to do with the submarine mattresses and their recharge after we have them, and they will turn us into a radioactive desert. In paradise, according to Putin, it is possible that someone will get moral satisfaction from this fact. Let the Celestial Empire dominate itself. Nothing can be done here. Nothing depends on us. The only question is that the puppeteers will lose their fear, decide that they are not vulnerable and will start and work, a "dead hand" in their habitats. The flight time, before us, is now completely ridiculous, the living will not have time to react.
  • Anton 17
    Anton 17 8 March 2021 15: 41
    0
    "The opponent was just ready to fight, not bluffing." It remains to be seen whether to bluff his finger on the "red button" in return.
    1. Kapral Alphych
      Kapral Alphych 8 March 2021 16: 24
      +7
      When our plane was shot down by the Turks, then another one was framed by the Jews, somehow no one thought about the "red button"! Do you think that something will change in this matter when the Americans torpedo a pair of our cruisers? I think, except for the next "concern" there will be nothing! They are not hitting Moscow, and not even on the territory of our country! And somewhere out there, in the distance, where the big uncles with the genitals are meriyuta! One call from the Capitol to the Kremlin, - "Well, what are you, BB, because of some pile of scrap metal, the whole world is in dust? Come on, you will grow a makabuku, you will punish us in return, but no - so wipe yourself and be silent."
      YAO is a suitcase without a handle! It seems to be a powerful thing, but it is somehow scary to use, and this thing, every military knows, is an extreme necessity, and in our case it is also a purely defensive thing, deterring our enemies from attacking our state within its borders! But outside these borders, the fight is just the same aircraft, tanks, cannons, infantry and navy. And if we want to represent something outside our borders, we need to think and do all the components of the RF Armed Forces corresponding to modern realities! And do not rely only on a nuclear club, which is nowhere else to swing except over the heads of its own citizens!
      1. Essex62
        Essex62 9 March 2021 13: 10
        +1
        And what, in the current realities, are we supposed to do outside, what are the urgent needs for the citizens of the Russian Federation, and not the purse of the moneybags? The SA had the task of pushing aside the threat for a puddle, eliminating the source of the threat to the bourgeois geyrop, and now what interests are pursued by getting into other people's wars. We do not promote cut paper, we do not export socialism, so what?
        1. Kapral Alphych
          Kapral Alphych 9 March 2021 16: 13
          0
          Fat bags are afraid of losing what they grabbed in the 90s and subsequent years. They understand that if they sit exclusively within their borders, then soon these borders will turn into a golden cage for them, and they will be fed exclusively on schedule, and only for circus performances on the terms of the owners of the cage. Therefore, in order to at least something to oppose this scenario, our moneybags have to rattle with iron on the external fronts. Well, if you go into details, they still get a bunch of nishtyaks (like the conquest of new markets, new orders for their enterprises, the ability to keep people away from the garden pitchforks, etc., and so on). At the same time, crumbs fall to us.
          1. Essex62
            Essex62 10 March 2021 09: 29
            +1
            That's it. Rotten capitalism, where the army is not the defender of the Fatherland and the People, but the financial instrument of the backsliders, as before 1917.
  • Observer2014
    Observer2014 8 March 2021 16: 00
    +3
    Well done author. Knows what he writes about! Three weeks ago I talked to an understanding person literally on this topic. I was pleasantly shocked that I read the same thoughts on the VO website! hi
  • Pamir
    Pamir 8 March 2021 17: 02
    +4
    And the articles (I support) one thing is clear, on the face, obvious sabotage, the reluctance of high-ranking and engaged individuals and structures responsible for the development and production of ship components with modules and weapons, to a state of acceptable combat stability of both the naval groupings and individual ships.
    Almost all significant and effective means (search, escort, shock, means of ensuring the survivability of ships and boats) projects, apparently deliberately by someone in the top management level, are being torpedoed. At the same time, deadly circus trick numbers, stillborn projects are deliberately lobbied for financial kickbacks both by structures and personal pockets of individuals. But according to the results of phenomenal decisions, in which case, circus trick artists for an encore, who will be obliged to perform? Correctly the Navy. Stupidly blind, in the missing coordinate system. Will the Navy fail? it will be recouped by all and sundry, the former beneficiaries of these projects will be the first to shout, if after such adventures there will be someone and on whom to recoup, of course.
    Here's a roughly sad Karl-Marx turns out.
    1. Pamir
      Pamir 8 March 2021 17: 08
      +1
      Few of the Navy is not sufficient in terms of quantity and type composition, so also someone deliberately bringing its capabilities to zero. The last ones will be found there, in case of failures on the sea and on the shores.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 8 March 2021 17: 29
    -1
    I want to ask a respected theoretician a question - do you really believe that a mattress nuclear submarine, for no reason, no reason, would attack Russian ships in neutral waters ???))) I want to note that Russia is no longer what it is was in the 90s or 00s. And the situation in the world is not the same. The Washington Reich Chancellery is "beating show-offs for suckers," but their hegemony has already ended. Therefore, it is not necessary, your very controversial conclusions, to present as the ultimate truth. Any situation must be considered as a whole. And then, you are very reminiscent of the "late" Timokhin, with his pseudoscientific cleverness, and conclusions - "boss, everything is lost"))))
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 20: 11
      +1
      I want to ask a question to a respected theoretician - do you really believe that a mattress nuclear submarine, for no reason, no reason, would attack Russian ships in neutral waters ???)))


      I want to remind you that one nuclear submarine was somehow missing. Already under Putin. Forgot?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 8 March 2021 21: 05
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        I want to remind you that one nuclear submarine was somehow missing. Already under Putin. Forgot?

        A rogue journalist, in order to push through his "ideas", throws a well-known disaster, but he will never give the FACTS that the Kursk was hit by a torpedo attack from the Americans. Not only that on the first day it was not clear at all the cause of the Kursk's death, but he would like us to immediately carry out a nuclear attack on the United States because of this - apparently he still dreams of this.
        1. timokhin-aa
          9 March 2021 10: 31
          0
          but it will never cite the FACTS that the Kursk was hit by a torpedo attack by the Americans.


          And they are. It's just that this is still a question that is fraught with being dragged into the light.

          Not only that, on the first day, the reason for the death of the Kursk was not clear at all.


          But now everything has become clear.
          And who said that the enemy cannot take and repeat?
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 8 March 2021 22: 14
        -1
        Boy, I've already explained to you once that numbers on a piece of paper are one thing, but real life is very far away. And by the way, you are our informed, if you have not forgotten, "Kursk" was thrown at shallow depths, which in the eleventh confirms that there is nothing to do with a large nuclear submarine at shallow depths, from the word at all)))
        1. timokhin-aa
          9 March 2021 10: 29
          +2
          Yes, and Memphis and Toledo there also turned out to be nothing to do, right?
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 9 March 2021 12: 25
            +1
            Now, in hindsight, you can tell that there were both "Thresher" and "Scorpio")))
          2. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 9 March 2021 13: 55
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Yes, and Memphis and Toledo are there too turned out nothing to do, huh?
            ... well, from what .... "push the green beacle" ... in a hurry.
            1. timokhin-aa
              9 March 2021 17: 01
              0
              And leave the radioactive spot on the ground.
              And some fragments of something even in the third compartment.
  • S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 8 March 2021 17: 38
    -3
    Chef! Everything is lost! Catastrophe!
    This is a collection of articles on this resource by a given team of authors.
    If not for the pathos, then we can agree with many things.
    The main contradiction in relation to the fleet is that there must be understanding,
    that in the current conditions the fleet has no tasks and no resources (such
    there is no fleet), to fight in the Mediterranean and "in the distant sea
    zone. "Such tasks translate the fight into a nuclear confrontation,
    which is not allowed by the construction of the current frigates-corvettes
    and stories about AUG attacks.
    The authors are great in revealing the problems of naval weapons. Here,
    however, the lack of horizons affects. Before their eyes
    their closest competitors they are fixated on.
    1. K298rtm
      K298rtm 8 March 2021 21: 01
      +6
      1. The fleet has tasks.
      2. There are also resources in the country - they are spent irrationally (including the interests of the state, and not of individual "respected" people and offices).
      3. The author draws the attention of the respected public once again to the irrational use of the available resources (intellectual, technical, financial).
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 8 March 2021 22: 30
        +2
        the author, with a clever look, paints outright crap. Without going into such nonsense as the destruction of the Russian submarine, for no reason, no reason, just at the whim of the mattress commander. I explain in a popular way. Where does the affatra come from, such confidence that the mattress supersubmarine will find at the maximum range the "Warsaw", which goes by 1,5 - 2 knots, or generally "reduced to zero", lies on the layer of "liquid soil", ie. does not make any noise at all)))) accurately identifies it and determines the EDC, provided that in the east. The Mediterranean is a complex hydrology. The Nile River, from the south discharges large volumes of fresh water, from the north Turkey, there are no large rivers, but there are many small ones. A large number of sunny days, high average annual temperature - heating of the upper layer. Finally, intensive shipping - every day hundreds of ships go to and from the Suez Canal, to the ports of Egypt, Israel, Syria, Turkey and from there. These are civilian troughs that "thunder" half of the Mediterranean. And now, in such a difficult situation, the mattress sonar, at maximum distances, detects a target that practically does not make noise. Gives a 100% guarantee that the "Warsaw woman", and the commander naturally believed him right away))) in short, I do not hope that the author will return to planet Earth, but at least he will return to our galaxy))) and Timokhin will take him with him) ))
        1. timokhin-aa
          9 March 2021 10: 29
          +1
          Where does the affatra come from, such confidence that the mattress supersubmarine will detect at the maximum range the "Warsaw", which goes by 1,5 - 2 knots, or generally "reduced to zero", lies on the layer of "liquid soil", ie. does not make any noise at all))))


          Have you heard about low-frequency illumination? Oh yes, you are biologically unable to understand the words "low", "frequency" and "backlight", I forgot.

          lies on a layer of "liquid soil",


          do not lie on liquid ground.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 9 March 2021 12: 30
            -1
            Well, you shouldn't "measure everyone by your yardstick." A person's mental abilities are not determined by how he, with a clever look, with a "tilt" for science, writes obvious rubbish))) slightly different criteria)))
            1. timokhin-aa
              9 March 2021 17: 07
              +1
              Answer the question about LF illumination.

              About liquid soil

              There was confidence that they passed the strait unnoticed. And then the unexpected happened. I was taken "in the pincers" by NATO anti-submarine ships. Apparently, in the strait, the coastal hydroacoustic station at Cape Europe discovered me and pointed the ASW ships at me. Having pulled out from under the RDP, I made several attempts to leave, but the battery density was low, and I could not tear myself away.
              Fortunately, at this time of the year in the Mediterranean Sea there is sometimes "liquid soil", and we got to it at a depth of 40-50 meters.

              Having adjusted to it, they stopped the course, turned off everything that was possible, even one of the gyrocompasses. The personnel were forbidden to move around the compartments. It was not even possible to start up the pump for trimming, since upstairs this noise was caught and jerked in order to maintain hydroacoustic contact with the boat.
              Thus, to keep the boat under a layer of liquid soil, I used the RDP air shaft, fearing to break the oil seals. When the boat sank to a depth of 100 meters, the shaft was raised, and the buoyancy increased. Submarine inertia sank to 130 meters, and then slowly began to surface. At a depth of 70 meters, the shaft was lowered, and the boat slowly approached from below to the liquid ground and held for some time at a depth of 40-50 meters. We have done such manipulations many times.

              The liquid soil allowed us not only to stay under it without moving, but also did not allow NATO PLO ships to take bearings of our boat and pinpoint our place.


              With active LF illumination, the method does not work.

              And now, citizen balabol, once again explain what you mean by
              "lies on a layer of" liquid soil ".
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 9 March 2021 21: 00
                -1
                I'm booing with you, citizen professor))) quote from where - since the Second World War? Why not remember the Russian - Japanese?))) About the bass - illumination. If we "highlight", then we are emitting. If the receiver of the SJC of the mattress nuclear submarine receives the reflected pulse, why cannot the receiver of the SJC "varshavyanka" receive the sounding one? And if the commander of the "Varshavyanka" realized that they were looking for him - what will he do?))) Let me guess))) will pop up, raise a white flag and go to Norfolk, surrender))) I begin to "pour" terrible terms according to your example - I think you read in "Wikipedia" - "jump layer" or, like your idols, mattress makers - "thermocline")))
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 8 March 2021 21: 07
      -3
      Quote: S. Viktorovich
      Here,
      however, the lack of horizons affects. Before their eyes
      their closest competitors they are fixated on.

      Absolutely right. Only I think they also pursue their own mercantile goals with such publications, and it looks sneaky.
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 48
        0
        Well, explain then, what did the author benefit from writing this article for himself?
        1. timokhin-aa
          9 March 2021 10: 27
          +2
          Do not waste time on the ensign - just read his nickname on the Russian layout, and everything with him will become clear, this is just an unhealthy person.
          Will finish the same way as others like them finished here,

          Madness is a dynamic process, it cannot just be, it can just evolve. The ensign has yet to see it

          The process has already started.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 9 March 2021 12: 31
            0
            I knew warrant officers (midshipmen), to whom other colonels (caperangs), like from here, to the neighboring galaxy)))
            1. timokhin-aa
              9 March 2021 17: 01
              -1
              But this is not the case, the subject in terms of its biological usefulness is approximately at your level.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 21
          0
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          Well, explain then, what did the author benefit from writing this article for himself?

          He makes a name for himself on scandalous publications, and ignorant people will decide that this truth-lover can be trusted. Although here many naval officers consider Klimov an ordinary batter, who has not achieved recognition in the navy, and thus earning a reputation for himself. Moreover, he, like Timokhin, is a lobbyist for one of the offices specializing in conventional naval weapons, and he is kept on feeding in order to wave questionable information at the customer on occasion.
          1. timokhin-aa
            9 March 2021 17: 02
            0
            Hahaha
            Prapor, but in essence, why can't you refute either Klimov or me?
            And who am I lobbying, if not a secret?
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 9 March 2021 18: 02
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              And who am I lobbying, if not a secret?

              You work for the propaganda of Svidomo, that's why you whistle so dashingly to Klimov.
              1. timokhin-aa
                9 March 2021 18: 09
                -1
                Well, come.
                Well, as an example of "Svidomo propaganda" on my part, eh, a drunkard?
            2. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 9 March 2021 21: 02
              -1
              The nonsense that you are painting here should not be refuted, but published in the "Humor" section. Worthy successors of the Zadornov case))))
  • Niko
    Niko 8 March 2021 17: 42
    -1
    The author understands what he writes about, And he is also right and ... this is really not typical of recent publications. And will not affect anything, unfortunately ... we will continue to better scare everyone with wunderwaves that have no analogues
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 8 March 2021 18: 01
    +1
    "In April 2018, the USS Virginia-class submarine USS John Warner was ready to sink Russian warships if they responded to a US air strike on Syria, Fox News reported."
    There is a great suspicion that for such sinking the submarine commander would have shot himself right there in the central post.
    Since omitting all the details, his boat would have no place to turn in particular.
    Therefore, the conclusion: the article is introductory, and especially about anything.
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 20: 10
      +3
      This is not the case, to put it mildly.
  • japan-k
    japan-k 8 March 2021 18: 18
    0
    It is very strange why the author, having such professional experience, intelligence in this topic, is very informed, etc. etc. He writes these articles here, and does not work as a consultant in NATO, or the Pentagon, well, in extreme cases, as an adviser to the Ministry of Defense. Making a bunch of dough. And it is very interesting how such a weak grouping of the Russian Federation in Syria has not yet been gouged, and as it turned out that the weak defeated the strong in Syria ?????
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 20: 09
      +3
      Just the author is a patriot and not a traitor. Therefore, it will not work for the enemy.
      Is not it clear.
    2. K298rtm
      K298rtm 8 March 2021 22: 15
      0
      The author is misleading a potential adversary (sorry, partners). moreover, consciously and competently. So, for example, they did in the 30s in Germany, when they built Tirpitz and Bismarck, claiming. that these are not battleships at all and not for the DMZ.
    3. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 March 2021 22: 53
      -1
      Well, as a last resort, an adviser to the Ministry of Defense.
      The author would have ended up as an advisor to the Ministry of Defense only in one case - if he had written not critical articles, but laudatory odes to our generalissimo.
    4. House 25 Sq. 380
      House 25 Sq. 380 11 March 2021 02: 16
      +1
      Balabols are not needed anywhere ...
  • Moskal 55
    Moskal 55 8 March 2021 19: 03
    +1
    Is this "the fury of the truth-womb"? After all, there is information with the stamping chipboard, C, SS. Here, if what he writes about is reliable, it is clearly already higher than the chipboard! On the other hand, it is clear that after we destroyed the USSR, we are weak against the United States with conventional weapons. In the 90s. they were just falling apart, and under Putin they began to do something, but it is clear that it is not as effective as our propagandists say. You just need to stop fighting your power from the standpoint of an ideal bystander. We are all to blame for the collapse of the USSR and the country's loss of competitiveness for the sake of building capitalism. Europe to Vladivostok! An energy superpower! Corruption? Yes, compared to voucher privatization and loans-for-shares auctions of the 90s, this is just a trifle! What to do? I know what not to do. A second restructuring must not be allowed! Despite the fact that Mr. now is no less than during the first. But let's be fair, much less than in the 90s! Whom to join so as not to be "crying in the wilderness"? My suggestion is eot.su As long as your goal is your own well-being, and you are a politician, officer or weapons developer ... It's still surprising that we have what we have. Are all patriots? And where is the USSR ?!
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 March 2021 23: 00
      +1
      Here, if what he writes about is reliable, it is clearly already higher than the chipboard!

      The author cited public data. This is the first thing. And secondly, the intelligence of the enemy knows perfectly well what is going on here.
  • iouris
    iouris 8 March 2021 19: 04
    -2
    How many minutes should the fleet hold out according to military doctrine?
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 March 2021 20: 08
      +2
      There is nothing in the military doctrine about the navy.
      1. iouris
        iouris 8 March 2021 22: 01
        -2
        I don’t know, she was gone for a long time. Maybe she is still being born in agony?
        And since there is no doctrine, then everything is permitted.
        1. Flashpoint
          Flashpoint 9 March 2021 02: 03
          +2
          Quote: iouris
          I don’t know, she was gone for a long time. Maybe she is still being born in agony?
          And since there is no doctrine, then everything is permitted.

          Yes, it is allowed to hold on to eternity and, if possible, not sink into it ...
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 8 March 2021 21: 18
      -1
      Quote: iouris
      How many minutes should the fleet hold out according to military doctrine?

      You are asking these cheap propagandists too difficult a question - neither Klimov nor Timokhin know how long it will take for enemy missiles to fly up to our naval bases in the event of a nuclear war with the United States. And what will be done by those surface ships that will be in the sea, but will not be destroyed during the first 30-40 minutes. Even if they survive, they still won't go to the shores of America or Europe. God forbid that at least a couple of our SSBNs on the march launched at the planned targets, and this is not the end of the whole heroic history of our fleet.
      But one question arises - is such a heroic death of the fleet worth the huge costs?
      1. timokhin-aa
        9 March 2021 10: 23
        +2
        Ensign, did you practice your operational-tactical views in a canister of moonshine? Stop scribbling crazy comments here, what you write has nothing to do with reality.

        Well, why would anyone go "to the shores of America" ​​with the beginning of the VD?

        May God grant that at least a couple of our SSBNs on the march launched at the planned targets, and this is not the end of the whole heroic history of our fleet.


        But this is just solvable and very cheap if you decide.
        What the same Klimov writes about.
        You just do not have enough mind to understand such things.
  • Peaceful SEO
    Peaceful SEO 8 March 2021 20: 48
    +2
    The article is definitely necessary and useful. But in the Mediterranean, our ships are not protected by anti-torpedoes and anti-submarine weapons. And the greed of amers and the desire to live on and gratify their greed.
  • K298rtm
    K298rtm 8 March 2021 20: 54
    -1
    1. The author described the sad (but, unfortunately, objective) situation with our Navy.
    2. The most offensive thing is that there are no special scientific, technical and financial (with the correct distribution, of course) problems for solving the problems indicated by the author.
    3. Rhetorical question - Where are the competent authorities looking (or are they not aware of these problems?)?
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 8 March 2021 23: 03
      -6
      Where are the competent authorities looking
      And they guard the goods acquired by those in power. Haven't you seen what kind of security guards the palace of Michal Ivanovich in Gelendzhik?
    2. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 10: 20
      +1
      3. Rhetorical question - Where are the competent authorities looking (or are they not aware of these problems?)?


      The most interesting question, by the way.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 8 March 2021 20: 55
    0
    And the frankly "wounded" and "shabby" type of American torpedoes says that they were fired at many times (in a practical version).


    Those. even our old torpedoes, due to the saving of the engine's service life and battery problems, the crews (i.e. BCh-3) cannot really operate very well. Little practice bully
  • Zum
    Zum 8 March 2021 22: 49
    -2
    If at least half of what is formulated here is true or has good reason, then consider ... we have no fleet ...
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 8 March 2021 23: 24
    -5
    From the sofas and armchairs of the urapatriots, they will put together a large barge, put them on oars and push them away from the shore. Let them hang out on the water and drown the enemy fleet with their hats.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 8 March 2021 23: 35
    -2
    Good article, timely. Thank! Couldn't it be more detailed about the defeat in Syria? About everything that will happen on land, at sea and in the air. And then you just walked in passing ... It is necessary in all colors!

    It's time for our military to wake up! Americans will kill! They are not joking!
  • czes
    czes 8 March 2021 23: 40
    -4
    The mustache is gone!
  • drion1964
    drion1964 9 March 2021 01: 23
    0
    There is the concept of the necessary and the sufficient. So, off the coast of Syria, the Russian naval grouping is sufficient to carry out tasks in Syria, and for strategic tasks Russia has a fleet and more abruptly. And the question is, where does the comparison of the capabilities of this Russian grouping with the American one? They had their own tasks, we tested their newest missiles, and we tested our S-400s on them.
  • Vikking
    Vikking 9 March 2021 01: 38
    +2
    When I come across material on VO which begins with a depiction of how one or another part of the Russian Navy or the entire fleet perishes, immediately, without reading it, I flip through it to the end, and if I find the name of the all-prophet Klimov, I close the article without even reading it. I just sincerely do not understand why this gentleman annoyed the fleet so that if he does not drown it all at once, then for sure most of it. And yet, he reminds me of one freelance author of a naval newspaper. As a retired midshipman, he wrote on the topic of the modern submarine. He also wrote a book of his memoirs, and published parts of it in the same newspaper. So while painting torpedo firing at exercises in the mid-80s, in which he participated as a crew member (I don’t remember exactly the position), he wrote something like the following: “Time seemed to stand still, the boat was ready for a fatal blow for its enemy. The commander looked at me, I nodded, the command "pli" sounded and the deadly projectile went right on target ... "For those who do not understand, I explain, the midshipman depicts how unknown the fleet commander who found himself on a diesel submarine, asks him, the midshipman, with a look for permission or approval to launch a torpedo !!!! And he graciously allows it.
    Why am I all this? And besides the fact that Klimov, with his "too detailed" stories about the deplorable state of our fleet and its unenviable fate, whether it collides with any other fleet, reminds me of that same midshipman. But "revealing the secrets" of the modern Russian Navy, he does not want to reveal the secret of who pays him for all these libels and how much ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 10: 19
      0
      Did it ever occur to you that this is all simply true?
      1. Vikking
        Vikking 17 March 2021 00: 28
        +1
        What exactly? What Klimov published or the conclusions he draws? At least the situation from which he repels (that the American submarine was ready to sink Russian ships) in the absence of documentary evidence, and it can only be of two types - intelligence from our intelligence officers about the presence of such intentions in the US leadership, or a copy of the combat order to the commander of that very boat on the use of weapons in a certain situation. Anyone who has served in the Navy, even with the rank of a simple sailor, will tell you that without an order, no commander will make a decision on the start of a thermonuclear disaster. And in that situation, our sailors calmly watched as the flocks of tomahawks were flying, since they had already been notified of the agreements reached at the top regarding their direction and goals. This information was not "denied" at the highest level, both in Russia and in the United States. Add to this the lack of documents confirming Mr. Klimov's statements - we draw an uncomplicated conclusion that the situation he modeled at the beginning is pure fiction, that is, a lie. And if everything starts with a lie, then it is foolish to continue looking for the truth.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 9 March 2021 16: 59
      +1
      Quote: Vikking
      And besides the fact that Klimov, with his "too detailed" stories about the deplorable state of our fleet and its unenviable fate, whether it collides with any other fleet, reminds me of that same midshipman.

      I completely agree with this assessment - not in the eyebrow, but in the eye. By the way, I seem to have read the "heroic" descriptions of this midshipman, he scribbled on some Ukrainian resource, and I also made out laughter from his writings.
      Quote: Vikking
      But "revealing the secrets" of the modern Russian Navy, he does not want to reveal the secret of who pays him for all these libels and how much ...

      They keep this secret, but Klimov looks like the maintenance of some Caspian company.
      1. Vikking
        Vikking 17 March 2021 00: 35
        0
        No, this midshipman wrote his memoirs and published them in the early 2000s in one of the naval newspapers. And he enjoyed well-deserved respect both among the submariners and among us yellow-haired salags. And the fact that he embellished a little, so it did not bother anyone. But he never wrote git about the fleet, unlike the author of this libel. Although, perhaps, Mr. Klimov is carrying out the task of the party and the government to mislead a potential enemy.
  • clerk
    clerk 9 March 2021 02: 08
    +2
    Arbitration of 2013, screen of 2015, anniversary report of 2016, author's assumptions on the operation in Syria, carried out in the spring of 2018. The author draws his conclusion in 2021. Has nothing changed in 3-5 years?
    1. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 10: 19
      +3
      No.
      And what can change in less than three years? OCD for a normal complex - 6-7 years.
  • Andrey Krasnopoyas
    Andrey Krasnopoyas 9 March 2021 02: 15
    +1
    Bearish article, is it really that bad? Of course, our main problematic is torpedo ranges in Feodosia and Przhevalsk (Kyrgyzstan) ...
  • tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 9 March 2021 04: 24
    -3
    It's hard to read articles like this! There is everything, money and minds, but at the "exit" we get "Zhiguli" instead of "Mercedes" - the trouble seems to be one, the "Zakharchenko" virus!
  • Time traveller
    Time traveller 9 March 2021 04: 33
    +1
    Quote: Disant
    after an exchange of strikes, the US submarine and surface fleet, thanks to its mobility, will basically survive and be able to recharge and retain its nuclear potential.

    After exchanging blows for reloading, he will have nowhere to go.
    1. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 10: 18
      +1
      They have SSBN floating bases, capable of even reloading a ballistic missile, and carrying reserve ammunition, crew, spare parts, etc. They don't need bases.
  • Time traveller
    Time traveller 9 March 2021 04: 53
    +2
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    We have a lag of about 70 years in anti-submarine aviation, about 45 in PTZ, and about 50 in torpedoes due to control systems.

    And not only from the United States, but from any country with non-Russian technology. Not too much, with our military spending?

    And what would you choose first of all - highly specialized anti-submarine aircraft and torpedoes, or essentially universal air defense and missile defense systems, cruise missiles, electronic warfare and hypersonic weapons, which Putin and Shoigu have chosen?
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 9 March 2021 13: 00
      0
      And what would you choose first of all - highly specialized anti-submarine aircraft and torpedoes, or essentially universal air defense and missile defense systems
      a strange question ... from the area: what to choose for breakfast: scrambled eggs or amlet !? wink laughing The efficiency of a highly specialized solution is always higher than that of a universal one ... somehow the laws of nature are even approved !!! Therefore - or flippers, or limbs ..., or wings !? laughing
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 9 March 2021 13: 01
      0
      which Putin and Shoigu chose?
      here, there are no faces like - those about whom you wrote, maybe good !? wink
    3. AlexSub
      AlexSub 10 March 2021 01: 42
      0
      Quote: The Time Traveler
      Quote: timokhin-aa

      And what would you choose first of all - highly specialized anti-submarine aircraft and torpedoes, or essentially universal air defense and missile defense systems, cruise missiles, electronic warfare and hypersonic weapons, which Putin and Shoigu have chosen?


      It is also worth considering that telecontrolled torpedoes are the same as pitching negroes instead of automatic loaders in American tanks.
      Back in the 70s, we abandoned this dead-end branch of development.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 9 March 2021 06: 39
    +3
    Quote: The Time Traveler
    Quote: Disant
    after an exchange of strikes, the US submarine and surface fleet, thanks to its mobility, will basically survive and be able to recharge and retain its nuclear potential.

    After exchanging blows for reloading, he will have nowhere to go.

    Amers have 800 bases abroad. And we have 1500 warheads that will go to the United States and Europe. So amerskiye nuclear submarines will be able to recharge many times, because they will always find where to return. And we simply do not have enough nuclear weapons for all amerskiye objects.
  • Varaga
    Varaga 9 March 2021 07: 51
    0
    The article sounds like free and if-only reasoning. There will be no direct clash between us and NATO. Because both sides are well aware of what it is fraught with. And nobody wants to die. But, "flap with arms" is necessary for ostrashka. That's all for a short time.
    1. Ryusey
      Ryusey 9 March 2021 13: 31
      -1
      And what is it fraught with, only with calculations, with facts without balabolism.
      1. Varaga
        Varaga 17 March 2021 11: 59
        0
        Why not? Only with the same "calculations" and without the same "nonsense".
    2. Cympak
      Cympak 9 March 2021 15: 09
      0
      And imagine that out of the blue, and off the coast of Syria our warship explodes (not necessarily the Moskva RRC, but for example one of the frigates of Project 11356) and quickly goes to the bottom. What was it: a torpedo, a mine? Who is guilty? Who will you fight with?
      1. Varaga
        Varaga 17 March 2021 11: 57
        0
        So you say as if you do not know that the space around any military facility is monitored by means of radio-technical reconnaissance. Even if this happens, it will be clear to military specialists where it came from.
        1. Cympak
          Cympak 17 March 2021 14: 37
          0
          By what means, I am ashamed to ask, is our radio-technical intelligence monitoring the underwater situation in the Eastern Mediterranean? Here, periodically, Israeli planes unexpectedly come flying from the sea from Lebanon. We in Syria have not organized on a permanent basis the watch of AWACS and PLO aircraft.
          The story with the South Korean "Cheonan" showed how it can be .... and it will be possible to understand the reason for the sinking of the warship only after a thorough and long examination of the wreckage on the seabed.
          1. Varaga
            Varaga 30 March 2021 08: 22
            -1
            "Out of the blue" nothing happens. If you don't understand this, this is one thing. But, if you speak only for the sake of speaking, this is different. And then I have nothing to talk about with you.
  • leks
    leks 9 March 2021 10: 38
    +6
    Quote: TermNachTER
    I want to ask a respected theoretician a question - do you really believe that a mattress nuclear submarine, for no reason, no reason, would attack Russian ships in neutral waters ???))) I want to note that Russia is no longer what it is was in the 90s or 00s. And the situation in the world is not the same. The Washington Reich Chancellery is "beating show-offs for suckers," but their hegemony has already ended. Therefore, it is not necessary, your very controversial conclusions, to present as the ultimate truth. Any situation must be considered as a whole. And then, you are very reminiscent of the "late" Timokhin, with his pseudoscientific cleverness, and conclusions - "boss, everything is lost"))))


    To read your comments, it seems that
    you are from alternate reality or the patient from room 6.
    That someone like you can assert or prove something here?
    You screwed up with Armenia and NK!
    In the fall, foaming at the mouth, he proved that Azerbaijan would lose, and after you won, you changed your shoes and started singing another song about the fact that there would be a guerrilla war in NK, and a month later there would be food riots in Azerbaijan itself.
    1. timokhin-aa
      9 March 2021 18: 43
      +1
      Moreover, it does not see any problem in all this. Stubbornness - she's so ...