"They measured the accuracy of the gun on a simple cardboard target": The US press drew attention to the tests of the GSh-30 by the Su-57 fighter

A footage of a Russian 5th generation Su-57 fighter is testing an airborne aviation guns. The tests are carried out in a special hangar, where a target is installed at a certain distance from the combat aircraft.

The footage shows how the onboard weapon appears from the fuselage compartment - special flaps open. After that, fire is fired at the target.

We are talking about the GSh-30 30-mm aircraft cannon (Gryazev-Shipunov cannon). Earlier it was reported that the Su-57 will be equipped with a modification of the GSh-30-1, which is also equipped with the previous generation fighters of the Russian Aerospace Forces, including the Su-30 and Su-35. The GSh-30 cannon is one of the lightest and fastest-firing air cannons in the world.

The cannon, as can be seen from the frames, is located on the right side of the fuselage - almost above the edge of the right wing.

Western experts and observers drew attention to the ground tests of the GSh-30 aircraft gun on the Su-57.

So, in the American edition of The Drive, the following is discussed:

Despite the tests of the Russian fighter with more exotic weapons (probably referring to intra-fuselage hypersonic weapons - approx. "VO"), traditional weapons remain an important part of the Su-57 arsenal. Also earlier, the aircraft was tested with various kinds of air-to-air missiles.

A video with tests of an aircraft cannon is posted on the user channel Nail Chapaev:

Columnist Thomas Newdick in the US press:

When not in use, the muzzle of the Su-57 cannon is hidden by an aerodynamic fairing, which will also help reduce the critical radar signature of the aircraft's front hemisphere.

In this case, the author draws attention to the target:

Apparently they were testing the GSh-30 and measuring the accuracy of the cannon with a simple cardboard target glued to the wall.

Apparently, the American author is used to the fact that in the United States, even for ordinary training targets, incredible amounts are allocated due to the presence of an 800 billion military budget ...

It should be recalled that aircraft cannons are also installed on American F-35 fighters. At the same time, the pilots of the US Air Force and Navy often complained that when using an aircraft gun, strong vibration occurs, which is transmitted to the cockpit and causes malfunctions when displaying information on monitors. It was not reported that this problem had been resolved in the United States.

Comments

[Dmitry Potapov]

No, it was necessary to put a huge expensive HD panel and shoot it! Everything according to Lavrov!

[NDR-791]

Everything according to Lavrov!
The rich have their own habits, and if they are also according to Lavrov, then this is a diagnosis.

[Dmitry Potapov]

Habits are habits but common sense should be!

[NDR-791]

Well, if according to Lavrov, then where to get that common sense?

[hydrox]

Common sense?
The Americans !?
But where does he get it if on their streets everything says that the whole country is slowly turning into a huge psychiatric hospital, in which patients and doctors - all walk in white coats, and the State is losing control of itself !!!

[dedusik]

Well yes

The first interrogation of the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Christopher Ray after the siege of the Capitol looks like a report on the capture of dangerous criminals. Whereas earlier terrorists were sought outside the United States, now they are among their own citizens. More than three hundred of them were arrested on suspicion of participation in the riots, and surrendered by their own relatives and friends.
“Our best partner in this endeavor is the common American people. Citizens from all over the country have sent us over 270 denunciations using digital media. Some even took the painful step of betraying their family and friends. ”- FBI Director Christopher Ray. https://news.rambler.ru/world/000-demokraticheskie-tsennosti-kak-rasovye-skandaly-obernulis-massovymi-donosami-amerikantsev-drug-na-druga/

[Fitter65]

Quote: hydrox

patients and doctors - all wear white coats,

But walking in white coats in the USA is not only not tolerant, but also the height of blasphemy. It is not enough for you that when commenting on a chess game one commentator said White wins Black !!! This is the height of disrespect !!!!

[hydrox]

Come on, we still have time to see how white robes and busts become black or tolerantly striped against a khaki background (special makeup bags for coloring the face will be offered at every corner, there will be special mods, as well as password stamps on the forehead!)

[Fitter65]

Quote: hydrox

Come on, we still have time with you to see how white robes and busts become black or tolerantly striped

Rainbow-striped, bastards are a symbol of purity and childish joy -The rainbow is filthy, like the blue color is the color of the clear sky ...

[Alien From]

And I mean the same! Blue, pink are not colors, they are buggers!

[Fitter65]

Quote: Alien From

Blue, pink are not colors

But before they sang with pride -Blue shoulder straps, blue chevrons, we ended up serving in the Air Force ... And now because of these "brown" who are driving all night in the back pass, there is already a song where a magician friend will fly in a blue helicopter and show - sounds ambiguous, but about a blue carriage that runs sways, people already have completely different images emerge ... Damn, we talked about cardboard targets

[Alien From]

Indeed ..... here's your target ........! I am silent, we will not spoil the branch for people

[your1970]

Quote: Fitter65

bastards are a symbol of purity and childish joy -The rainbow is filthy.,

This is unlikely .. There are 7 colors in the Rainbow - they are flawed as it should be - only 6 ..
Looks like? Well, they also look like people from afar ...

[seregatara1969]

the price of the issue is common sense. cheap, fast and angry. the whole country shoots at paper targets and nothing, they live like that

[alexpro66]

Common sense? Yes, it consists in the fact that ours did not succeed in cutting the budget on targets, but it is normal for the ops. Our target was made of garbage and we attracted a fashion designer for 100 thousand. And the result is the same! So who has common sense?

[YOUR]

Is it worth paying attention to the performance of some journalist who has no idea how it really is, but as a worn-out artist sees this way ..
In the USA, the same criteria are also determined for accuracy. Any barrel is shot in the same way.
And so just in case. What we saw was not an accuracy test. A clean target with nothing applied, very close to the aircraft. Most likely we saw one of the stages of testing this gun on an airplane. There will also be flight tests, when the pilot will fire into a white light, and not at targets from various positions of the aircraft.
To begin with, on the ground without the engines turned on, then with the engines running, check for surge, whether the engine will fail due to the firing of the cannon. What about the mount, how the plane will behave when the gun recovers, check the mount, etc. Calculations are one thing, field tests are another. But you never know such tests were, are and will be.
And the last one is to shoot the cannon at a certain distance. I don’t know which for the Su-57 it is quite possible for both 200 meters and 500 meters. I don’t know.

[Kurare]

Quote: NDR-791

The rich have their own habits

This is rather from the "cut the dough" category. In the United States, even generals can independently conclude contracts with private producers, which is fertile ground for inappropriate use of the military budget.

[Lech from Android.]

Advertising is the engine of progress ... I can imagine how the Americans at the exhibition on the podium show an expensive F35 sparkling with all the colors of the rainbow ... shooting with rainbow missiles a 5-meter low panel, sparkling with lights like a UFO saucer. Kids from Eastern Europe will love it.

[Cowbra]

Absolutely right. I just feel that not everyone here understood that "Lavrov's way" is his famous phrase, addressed to critics of testing a gun on a simple target)))

[Maz]

It was NECESSARY to write "Sanctions" on the target and print Biden's face just below in order to highlight the accuracy and explain why what is happening

[Alien From]

It was necessary to ask them for a volunteer instead of a target ..... they would immediately get worn out.

[Paldiski]

HD is cheap, you should have 8k with nanotubes

[IvaNik]

Well, you can also according to Zadornov, about space technologies, that ours both wrote and write in space with pencils.

[hound]

Quote: IvaNik

Well, you can also according to Zadornov, about space technologies, that ours both wrote and write in space with pencils.

Or you can stupidly climb on Wikipedia and read the history of this pen, very surprised that it was developed by an outsider on a proactive basis. And that Russia also uses it, and the cost of the space handle is space 6 (six) dollars.

The main problem with quotes on the Internet is that people immediately believe in their authenticity. - V. I. Lenin.

[IvaNik]

So even Wikipedia does not deny that there were some research about what to write in zero gravity, and as a result, the budget was cut. As a result, they bought special pencils and markers for $ 100 apiece, until a third-party inventor created a cheap pen. So I think Zadornov's trolling of the Americans is appropriate and what is written in this article confirms this.

[HOMUT1430]

Well, duck! The USA has developed a super-duper collider for a campaign and sawed a couple of yards to pop from a cannon.

[Red_Graphic]

Yes, they have such cuts that the same cardboard will cost as the same AshDi panel

[Moonsund]

So what is next? I went heap, the mechanism worked, at the distance required for checking. Your houses are built of cardboard, these are the holes that would be

[WHAT IS]

I went heap, the mechanism worked

Don't tell me, they'll still be here for our cannons. Look behind you better - like a hurricane or some kind of tornado, Uncle Tom's cardboard huts flew into the sky throughout the village.

[Lech from Android.]

Then the US press got excited, again the Russians are to blame, they are using the wrong target.

[Dmitry Potapov]

Also, sanctions will be introduced for damage to cardboard!

[Sly]

Quote: Moonsund

Your houses are built of cardboard, these are the holes that would be

Journalist: They were targeting material similar to that of which American homes are made!

[Thrifty]

Behind the target was a life-size scarecrow of Biden. ..

[AlexVas44]

It is a pity that this scarecrow was placed in the back, apparently confused.

[hydrox]

Nothing is confused.
The scarecrow sits where it should be - in the chair of the USA Avenue !!

[Storog dvornik]

To paraphrase a Soviet children's riddle:
- What is the name of Biden's dog? ...
Answer:
- Biden's dog is called Sleepy Joe ...

[aszzz888]

In this case, the author draws attention to the target:

Just think - a target! At the same time, he himself forgot that they collect houses from drywall and plywood in their merikatosia! And at the first gust of wind they fly all over the area!

[hydrox]

Here is their F-35 and flies the way he was taught by examples of housing construction - you saw how their plywood in a tornado flies great!

[shinobi]

I'm embarrassed to ask, what are targets made of in a mattress?

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: shinobi

I'm embarrassed to ask, what are targets made of in a mattress?

Judging by their arrogance, straight from the bucks. It is considered to be considered to hit Franklin between the eyes.

[hydrox]

Quote: shinobi

I'm embarrassed to ask, what are targets made of in a mattress?

From the same as at home, and F-35 planes: I would not be surprised that pilots are made of the same, otherwise they would have already burned out with shame for their eroplanks long ago.

[Nyrobsky]

Quote: shinobi

I'm embarrassed to ask, what are targets made of in a mattress?

They fly to undemocratic countries and beat industrial infrastructure, life support facilities, hospitals, weddings and anyone else who doesn't want to accept their "democracy." Apparently the break in their template happened because it turns out that you can shoot at plywood shields

[Rusticolus]

Moreover, on the plywood from which their houses are made. Here they also burn. It’s not otherwise the Russians are preparing for an attack on America. We need to add more sanctions. The aggression is obvious.

[Ka-52]

In this case, the author draws attention to the target:

Apparently they were testing the GSh-30 and measuring the accuracy of the cannon with a simple cardboard target glued to the wall.

what nonsense. Accuracy has not been tested in this video. A gun is tested for accuracy on a stand, not an airplane. On the plane, they carry out the zeroing and for this they also use a stand on which the "Stream" type gas-dynamic blowing system is mounted. Here, most likely, they could measure the overloads from firing, the removal of powder gases, they tested the elements of electric trigger, power supply, opening / closing the airlock, etc., but you never know what else. But not the accuracy of shooting

[shinobi]

This is understandable. Kills the stupidity of their layman and the "experts" who write for them. Yes, in fact, they have the same staff experts in the government and the Pentagon. As an example, kill 44 billion on the development of B-2, spend 2 apiece, knowingly knowing that They are not good for anything. How is it? In the USSR, they were put up against the wall for this, and in Russia they are imprisoned right away. And judging by the F-35, which is generally good for us, the situation is only getting worse. The bad thing is that they piously believe in its exclusivity and invincibility.

[Errr]

I especially liked:

In the footage, you can see how the onboard weapon appears from the in-fuselage compartment ...

Before that, apparently, the author puffed on the smoke, but not deeply. With a decent drag from the "in-fuselage compartment", the T-14 "Armata" was supposed to move into a firing position.

[Filxnumx]

and if you "shoot", then the "Death Star" will appear a la naturelle?

[Errr]

A la naturel only in case of overdose.

[Filxnumx]

and write it down

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Ka-52

Here, most likely, they could measure the overloads from firing, the removal of powder gases, they tested the elements of electric trigger, power supply, opening / closing the airlock, etc., but you never know what else. But not the accuracy of shooting

The gun itself, from older tests (Su-57):

[Viktor Sergeev]

The Americans are probably shooting at iPhones mounted on a platinum panel.

[3danimal]

No:

https://youtu.be/N60WtGC4ejo

[Nadrub]

Chubais needs to throw a topic with targets :))) he will quickly fasten nanotechnology to the cardboard :)

[rocket757]

"Don't shoot the 'pianist', he plays as best he can!" ... but it makes us laugh too!
He did not serve, did not shoot, and in general is not a fan of weapons, how does he know that a TARGET is not just a sheet of paper / cardboard, but a very specific graphic image / drawing.

[MrFYGY]

The cannon hatch opens for two seconds, judging by the video. Does it have to open-close after each turn or is there a fight / flight switch?

[Barmal]

Why do you need it?

[abc_alex]

30mm cannon. On cardboard. Nu-nu ...

[rotmistr60]

It doesn't matter on what target, the main thing is good accuracy.

[AC130 Gunship]

It depends on the distance. If 100m, the accuracy will be super ...

[Avior]

I don’t think there’s a piece of cardboard
Surely there is a shell catcher, otherwise there will be holes in the hangar, or ricochets will fly all over the hangar

[Irbiz123]

Well, if you remember Zadornov, then the Americans have clip thinking, they do not provide for the optimization of any algorithm!

[Zaurbek]

And China did not put a cannon on the J-20 ...

[Freedim]

The shooter drew a heart on a cardboard by March 8th True, one bullet left a little lower .. Maybe he wanted to give a lady .. And they are all target - target ..

[Dimon Dimonov_2]

The top of the Abrams tower was pierced with a 23 mm cannon removed from the old MIG ... not immediately ... but pierced ... what can I say about 30 mm ...

[iouris]

This is not an anti-tank gun. But the recoil from the 30mm cannon damages the aircraft itself. Enough 23 mm.

[nks]

hmm, but for some reason no one is now installing 23-mm cannons. In general, it depends on ... the design of the gun, the rate of fire and shots. So modern 25-30mm cannons have lower recoil than gsh-6-23 with higher ballistics.

[3danimal]

The GSh-23L version for the 23x152mm projectile will at least not be inferior to the Lightning's 25mm cannon.

[nks]

I have a 3 question:
1. What exactly will not be inferior to?
2. Where did you find GSh-23l for a projectile 23x152mm?
3. And what do you want to say to all of this?

[3danimal]

1. What exactly will not yield

In the rate of fire and the second mass of the volley (plus or minus). The muzzle velocity will be the same.

2. Where did you find the GSH-23L for the 23x152mm round?

We are talking about the necessary modification for this projectile.
GSh-23L is good enough (rate of fire), but lacks flatness (23x115mm projectile).

[nks]

And question 3?)) He's the most important - why is this all?))) Unsupported assumptions, why compare with GAU-22 / A and what does this have to do with what I wrote (since you answered me )?

[3danimal]

IMHO, GSh-30-1 has insufficient rate of fire and flatness for close maneuvering combat, in comparison
with GAU-22 / A or M61.
The GSh-23L modification for the aforementioned projectile looks like a budget solution.
Experience in DCS brought such thoughts to my mind

[nks]

Or maybe it's worth a shot under the GSH-30-1 to start with finalizing? Budgetary. The scope of work on GSH-23 along with the shot will be more, and in the end you forgot about the recoil, with which this thread began.

[3danimal]

The returns will be comparable. The GSh-30 projectile weighs 390g, versus 188g 23x152mm, muzzle velocity for 30mm 880 m / s, versus 980 m / s for 23x152mm.
The goal is to increase the rate of fire and flatness, with comparable recoil.

[3danimal]

The shot for the GSh-30 cannot be finished, the projectile is heavy, and the rate of fire per barrel is already high.
The 23x152mm projectile has existed for a long time, it is used in Shilka and the GSh-23-2 anti-aircraft gun.
Therefore, only the revision of the GSh-23l cannon itself is needed for a more powerful shot of the same caliber.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

The shot for the GSh-30 cannot be finished, the projectile is heavy, and the rate of fire per barrel is already high.

Why? You can at least develop a shot with a lighter projectile, where you can increase the speed and accuracy. Something can already be done.

Quote: 3danimal

The 23x152mm shell has existed for a long time,

That's right, that for a long time - this is a shot from almost the time of the Second World War. There are more modern shots for this caliber, but not here.

Quote: 3danimal

anti-aircraft GSh-23-2.

There is no "anti-aircraft GSh-23-2." There is a ZU-23-2 and this is a completely different gun from the GSh-23. It was developed by other people elsewhere.
The rate of fire on the ZU-23 barrel is less than that of the GSh-23 and, if you think that the GSh-23, it is enough to replace the bolt group under 23x152mm
and everything will be fine, then you are deeply mistaken.

Quote: 3danimal

Therefore, only the revision of the GSh-23l cannon itself is needed for a more powerful shot of the same caliber.

In general, if we talk about the su-57, it is difficult to overlook that the double-barreled cannon simply will not stand there,
and the GSh developed a new cannon for 30mm (it is a newer development than the GSh-23) for a reason.

[3danimal]

You can at least develop a shot with a lighter projectile, where you can increase the speed and accuracy.

The mass of the projectile can really be reduced.
For 30mm lateral load 173 g / cm2 (390g projectile)
For 23mmx152mm - 142 g / cm2 (188g projectile)
Bringing a heavy 30mm projectile to a lateral load of 142 g / cm2, we get 320g - a weight reduction by 18%, increasing the muzzle velocity with the same gunpowder weight.
But: there is nowhere to raise the rate of fire, there are already 1500 rounds per barrel. This means that we need a Gast scheme (we have mastered it long ago and is simple) with two barrels. But even with new shells (which are 18% lighter), the recoil will still grow whiter than 1,5 times (at 3000 rds / min)
(These are the calculations on the way to the gym )

There is no "anti-aircraft GSh-23-2

I didn't remember the name and was too lazy to google

There is a ZU-23-2 and this is a completely different gun from the GSh-23. It was developed by other people elsewhere.

I know

The rate of fire on the ZU-23 barrel is less

Up to 1000 rounds per barrel.

if you think that for GSh-23 it is enough to replace the bolt group under 23x152mm
and all will be well

I admitted the thought of deep processing.
But with the stated goals: to double the rate of fire with comparable recoil, to increase flatness. All this is possible only in caliber smaller than 30mm (23-25mm).

with regard to the su-57, it is difficult to overlook that the double-barreled cannon simply will not stand there

Because it was originally designed for GSH-30-1.

and the GSh developed a new cannon for 30mm (it is a newer development than the GSh-23) for a reason.

I know what's newer.
Do you have any ideas?

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

Do you have any ideas?

I am not engaged in the design of air cannons in order to seriously work out solutions, especially in the absence of such a problem. I just pointed out that the message of iouris and yours is wrong, but I have already said the main obvious idea - it is necessary to modernize the existing cannon-shot system. It is quite possible to raise the muzzle velocity and accuracy. You propose an option with a large amount of work, which will not be applicable anyway. By the way, the air cannon with the highest rate of fire per barrel (2500) just under 30mm is the GIAT / NEXTER 30 M 791

[3danimal]

the air cannon with the highest rate of fire per barrel (2500) just under 30mm is the GIAT / NEXTER 30 M 791

Right, revolving. Which we have never made. Unlike Gast's double-barreled scheme.
There are two versions of this gun:
GIAT 30M 781 for 30x113mm projectile and
GIAT 30M 791 for 30x150mm round.
Obviously, the French managed (with maximum unification) to create two cannons, a shell of different power and in the same caliber.
Their shell is noticeably lighter - 244-270g. But even so, the second recoil impulse of the GIAT 30M 791 is 30% more than that of the GSh-30-1.
I do not think that only by lightening the projectile (and reducing the recoil), you can increase the accuracy.
There is a video on YouTube where the 6-barrel M61 shows a much better result (there is an opinion that 1 barrel should shoot more accurately), having a second recoil momentum higher than ours by 34% (but the gun itself is 2,5 times heavier).
So you can't do without reworking the structure.
I will admit that this may be due to the extremely low weight of the GSH-30-1, only 44 kg (versus 110-120 kg of the GIAT 30M 791).
We saved on something, to the detriment of quality.

[nks]

You are confusing the rocket impulse of the projectile and the actual recoil of the cannon (which I talked about at the very beginning). Of course, for a significant increase in the rate of fire, the amount of work will be decent, not the fact that it is necessary. But, for example, if you do increase the rate of fire, the Gatling scheme is completely worked out for us, or you can even try a scheme with two synchronized guns. The task must be set more precisely and the use of the Gast scheme will not increase the accuracy in any way, and the projectile must be developed / modernized in any case.

[3danimal]

You are confusing the projectile's projectile impulse and the actual recoil of the cannon

Used only a second pulse of the queue to simplify.

the Gatling scheme is quite worked out in our country

It is more complex and heavier than the Gast scheme.

or you can try a scheme with two synchronized guns in general.

So it is on the "Tornado" and "Mirage-2000". But this will double the recoil, as well as the weight of the aircraft's artillery.

using the Gast scheme will not increase the accuracy in any way

So I talked about the rate of fire (reasonable, 3000 rds / min), with the maximum simplicity of the design and the same level of recoil.
Accuracy must be increased by the greater mass of the barrel and the stiffness of the cannon structure, which was clearly saved in the race to reduce weight. And the processing of the entire gun as a whole.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

But this will double the recoil, as well as the weight of the aircraft's artillery.

It will definitely increase recoil no more than Gast, but in reality it will rather less - since the guns are spaced apart. There is a plus in potentially greater reliability, but minus weight and maintenance. This is an example of a simple way to increase the rate of fire. Again, it's not a fact that such a rate of fire is needed (at least to sacrifice accuracy or something else for it).

Quote: 3danimal

Accuracy must be increased by the greater mass of the barrel and the stiffness of the cannon structure.

Yes, including. Here IMHO on this and it is worth working + projectile

[3danimal]

Again, it's not a fact that such a rate of fire is needed (at least to sacrifice accuracy or something else for it).

M61 shoots very closely:

https://youtu.be/N60WtGC4ejo

The high rate of fire increases the chances of "catching" the target in a maneuvering battle. It is far from always possible to settle down well in the tail, the target can fly through the HUD for a split second.

She will definitely increase the recoil no more than Gast

But I therefore proposed to reduce the caliber.

since the guns are blown

There is a need for their information and zeroing each.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

M61 shoots very closely

Yes, I do not argue, there and GAU-8 shoots heap, but I'm talking about our reality.

Quote: 3danimal

A high rate of fire increases the chances of "catching" the target in a maneuvering battle.

Yes, this is called the density of fire, which increases the likelihood of hitting the target - it's a matter of balancing the real solution. Moreover, BVB on cannons is very rare.

Quote: 3danimal

But I therefore proposed to reduce the caliber.

The point is not even that you not only suggested that. Simply reducing the caliber by itself (especially in our reality) does not increase the rate of fire, but that flatness with a greater mass of the projectile and equal speed (I repeat, it can be increased on GSh-30 as well) will be better.

Quote: 3danimal

There is a need for their information and zeroing each.

I already mentioned this in the maintenance part, but this is not a particularly big problem.

[3danimal]

Moreover, BVB on cannons is very rare.

In close maneuvering combat, all means are good. There are times when an opponent crosses the HUD for a split second and you should be able to use this chance, he may generally be more experienced or more maneuverable. Sometimes survival depends on it.
From experience in DCS, I can say that rapid-fire cannons (GSh-23l, GAU-22 / A, M61) are more likely to realize this. But the GSH-23L lacks muzzle velocity in comparison with the other two.

Just reducing the caliber itself (especially in our reality) does not increase the rate of fire

Reduces the mass of the projectile while maintaining a good lateral load (how quickly the projectile is braked against the air), which makes it possible to significantly increase the rate of fire (2 times) while maintaining the same level of recoil.

but the same flatness with a greater mass of the projectile and equal speed (I repeat, it can be increased on GSh-30 as well) will be better

Flatness depends on lateral load (g / cm2) and muzzle velocity.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

Flatness depends on lateral load (g / cm2) and muzzle velocity.

Yes, and it is different for different ranges. However, at the same speed, a heavier flatness will be better at all ranges.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

From experience in DCS, I can say that rapid-fire cannons (GSh-23l, GAU-22 / A, M61) are more likely to realize this. But the GSH-23L lacks muzzle velocity in comparison with the other two.

But it's interesting. It turns out that in DCS, the rate of fire is taken into account and the initial speed, apparently, too? And what about flatness and other precision such as scattering?
Have you compared (on which aircraft) the GSH-23L with the GSH-30? Does GSH-23L give a better result compared to GSH-30?

[3danimal]

It turns out that in DCS, the rate of fire is taken into account and the initial speed, apparently, too?

Of course. And the projectile is slowed down in flight, it can be seen along the tracks.

And what about flatness and other precision such as scattering?

Flatness is taken into account, strongly depends on the initial speed.
Let's say the opponent makes a loop, you fly after him with a high overload, and the aiming mark GSh-23l (Mig-21bis, Mig-23) or ADEN (on Mirage-2000) goes beyond the ILS.

[nks]

Have m2000 DEFA :) When shooting in a bend with overload, it is less possible to assess the flatness of the ballistics of the cannon-projectile itself - here it is more interesting in a straight line. But what about the difference with the GSH-30 - have you tried it?

PS: Maybe I'll try it in DCS too :)

[3danimal]

When shooting in a bend with overload, it is less possible to assess the flatness of the ballistics of the cannon-projectile itself

On the contrary: I wrote about the sighting mark "floating away" outside the ILS, i.e. the point where the track meets the target.
This was not the case with the M61.

[nks]

Quote: 3danimal

On the contrary: I wrote about the sighting mark "floating away" outside the ILS, i.e. the point where the track meets the target.

By the way, I think that this is not a matter of flatness, but of the speed of the projectile - it flies longer and you need to make a big correction when cornering.

[3danimal]

The M61 (1050 m / s muzzle velocity) has a better flatness situation, GSh-30 (880 m / s) is somewhere in the middle.
(GSH-23L and ADEN - 730-750 m / s).
IMHO, with vigorous maneuvers, the M61 has the best characteristics (fire density and flatness). Despite the lower power of the projectile. One or two hits are enough to severely impair aerodynamics or ignite the engine. Fighters now do not fly out to attack with cannons (which the GSh-30 is very good at, with its heavy projectile).
When the opponent quickly crosses the ILS, the best opportunities are provided by the M61 and GSh-23l cannons. Hence the idea arose to "combine" them - to remake the GSh-23l for a projectile with a higher muzzle velocity.

[nks]

Thanks, but I'm not talking about tabular charts, I'm talking about specific modeling in DCS (with all possible conventions). And I want to understand what kind of guns are taken into account there. Again, in relation to our initial conversation. It's good, of course, when everything is fine and if you make a cannon with a good rate of fire and ballistics, then you need to thoroughly approach this - this is not an option to quickly remake the GSh-23 under a more powerful cartridge. If you choose how you can improve the current not the best situation with small forces, then my idea is that the rate of fire compensates for poor accuracy and high dispersion (you fill a large area with a large number of shells and increase the probability of hitting), and vice versa - better accuracy can to compensate for the lower rate of fire - the spread is less and the same number of shells falls into the desired area at a lower rate of fire. The ballistics of the GSh-30 is slightly better than the GSh-23, but not 2 times.

Quote: 3danimal

Fighters now do not fly out to attack with cannons

Oddly enough, they do this, although rarely, but more often than they work with cannons in the air, simply because now there are practically no real BVBs - if only which drone is shot down with a cannon.

[3danimal]

I calculated for a lightweight 270g 30mm projectile:
With the same energy of 150 kJ (roughly, with the same amount of gunpowder), the muzzle velocity will increase to 1055 m / s (which is very good), and the impulse of the projectile will decrease by 20%. Then, simplifying, you can increase the rate of fire to 1800 rds / min with the same recoil and greater flatness of fire.
The question arises regarding the resource of the barrel and the reliability of the power supply (the French chose the revolving scheme for a reason).
In general, the GIAT 30M 791 will be much more technologically advanced, of course, in comparison with the GSH-30-1. Noteworthy is the presence of a powerful muzzle brake, in principle, absent in our country.

[nks]

By the way, here's another nuance (it's all about small bubbles) - you don't need a particularly fast pace to work on the ground, and very short queues are used at the BVB at the maximum pace. The gatling scheme, due to the inertia of a massive block of barrels, takes longer to reach the maximum rate of fire than other options, including revolving ones, and therefore the real rate in such a queue will be less than the declared maximum. What I mean is that a good balanced solution requires taking into account all the subtleties in the complex.

[3danimal]

The gatling scheme, due to the inertia of the massive block of barrels, takes longer to reach the maximum rate of fire than other options

This is true only for cannons with a gas engine.
In the presence of an external drive (as in the M61), the rotation of the barrels can be started before pressing the trigger (after removing the gun safety catch, for example).
But this does not apply to our guns Gast.

[3danimal]

I fully support

[iouris]

And in the center of scattering there are no hits

[meandr51]

It turns out that it was possible that way ...

[Real Pilot]

Quote: Dmitry Potapov

No, it was necessary to put a huge expensive HD panel and shoot it! Everything according to Lavrov!

And display the image on this TV ... Here the imagination is not limited to trivial solutions!

You can take the example of our beloved brother-neighbors, who will show a portrait to their liking, and then report on the great symbolic victory over the insidious aggressor!

[Eug]

Why such a flame? This usually indicates non-combustion of a part of the powder and "stock" along the length of the barrel ...

[Chever]

Sorry for the video without sound

[Keyser soze]

I did not understand this article ... lost in translation or what ... Americans are doing tests of the F35 gun on the same plywood ...

[Kapkan]

Extreme vibration of the compartment cover.
In flight, on bends, deformation and separation are possible.
The construction is strange. Against this background, the Su-57 is a masterpiece of design thought.

[Keyser soze]

Extreme vibration of the compartment cover.
In flight, on bends, deformation and separation are possible.

Exactly. And as we add both the air flow and the credibility of this cover somehow disappears. Something played with high-tech planes and coatings ...

[3danimal]

The F-35 itself is assembled very well.
Minimum protruding parts and all diamond / sawtooth covers. Ours was too lazy to do so, apparently.

[K-50]

they tested the GSh-30 and measured the accuracy of the cannon with a simple cardboard target glued to the wall.

And what should have been pin boards instead of targets fixed on the wall?
Well, we are not monsters, after all. Their turn in the case of a power supply will be

[APASUS]

Did you have to buy 5GAT? Air target of the fifth generation

[hound]

Quote: Dmitry Potapov

No, it was necessary to put a huge expensive HD panel and shoot it! Everything according to Lavrov!

Yes, according to Lavrov, exactly. Very capaciously characterizes all those who are trying to joke higher.
Because in the text

"Surprisingly, the GSh-30-1 is fired at a simple backstop. If this was a test to gauge the accuracy of the gun in any way, it would only really be good for monitoring the general grouping of impacts, which appears to have been measured using a simple cardboard target pasted to the wall. "

And then he explains his thought:

"Test firing on the ground is an important part of proving the weapon's reliability and accuracy, as well as determining if there are any adverse effects on the aircraft itself. Vibrations and impacts from the gasses and debris as a result of firing the gun can be major concerns for any airframe, let alone one that has low-observable features, some of which are delicate by their very nature. These tests will first occur before firing the gun in flight, but since we don't know when the video was taken , the weapon may have already completed its evaluation. "

But for hamsters, a phrase taken out of context is enough.

[kytx]

this is VO format
humble yourself

[Barmal]

the mechanical translation itself gave me "was measured with a simple cardboard target glued to the wall." If the rationale of gluing cardboard or plywood to the wall is the opinion of a specialist, then I am an academician. NOT a hamster, but an academician.

[hound]

Three times

Quote: Barmal

the mechanical translation itself gave me "was measured with a simple cardboard target glued to the wall." If the rationale of gluing cardboard or plywood to the wall is the opinion of a specialist, then I am an academician. NOT a hamster, but an academician.

I read the post three times, but did not understand the idea. The author writes that it is not clear what information they are trying to obtain with the help of the test. And then he makes the assumption that in this way they are trying to study the effect of the pulses of the firing gun.
No one jokes over the cardboard, but if the article is translated truthfully and impartially, then the views will be several times less, as well as the dough for them.
As practice has repeatedly shown, "patriots" regularly react to news like "the United States is crazy, they wrote that Russia ..." and then you can insert any nonsense, no one will check the information.

[Wedmak]

True, the USSR nevertheless bought several dozen copies of this pen.

[Wedmak]

Where they saw the cardboard there is not clear. Even with this quality, it is clear that there is a plywood sheet from the nearest building store.

[jaroff]

The usual, standard technological operation for the "hot" shooting of a gun at a serial plant should not be called tests.

[Misha_an26]

In Irkutsk, the second board was taken from the revision (AN-24), so they have a shooting range there. And hear how they shoot (Su-27).

[Lew]

it is necessary to calibrate the gun, then ... for such indicators, I would rip my technicians on AB to the fullest.

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

Quote: Lew

it is necessary to calibrate the gun, then ... for such indicators, I would rip my AV technicians off completely

There is no zeroing - the distance is too small.
This is either working out the work of the trunk / exhaust hatches, or assessing the effect of gases on the coating.

[Lew]

most likely you are right)))

[Evgenii Xolod]

It was necessary to buy and distribute the F35))))))).

[kytx]

an exact copy of the F15StrikeEagle pen can be freely purchased for about 15 years with firewood and the "as made-to-measure" settings

[3danimal]

There is no one to buy from

[Evgenii Xolod]

This is yumor ok to paraphrase, buy a target for 100/500 mulion and shoot it according to European standards, changing it (target) every 3 years, and not for 3 rubles a roll of wrapping paper, will last for 50 years.

[3danimal]

I noticed that the distance is small and the accuracy (at such a distance) is lame.
I gave a video with the shooting of Vulcan ..
Not a roll of plain paper, but targets with markings.

[matveev55tolja]

Any hunter, when adjusting the sight, uses paper targets for a simple reason - it is easier and faster to replace them with new ones !!!

[Dimon klewort]

In the SGA, the cut is more significant, and you need to kiss the blacks. Brrrr .... what a disgusting thing.

[3danimal]

What is a saw cut? When was a million allocated and 500 thousand stolen?

[3danimal]

And what about the accuracy?

The target is very close, and such a spread
I found this video of tests of the 6-barreled M61:

https://youtu.be/N60WtGC4ejo

The target is much farther here, and the accuracy is higher.

[3danimal]

And in general, IMHO, it was a mistake to switch to 30mm air cannons, sacrificing rate of fire.
They are more suitable for shooting at bombers, perhaps, but in a maneuvering battle sometimes there is a split second to "cut" a target flying through the ILS.
The best option would be a modification of the GSh-23L (3000 rds / min) for a 23x152mm projectile. The rate of fire is twice (compared to the GSh-30-1), the initial velocity of the projectile is 100 m / s higher (for 23x152mm).

[Vasyok]

Only scare the sparrows. It resembles the shooting of a Kalash monkey.
It seems that the barrel of the gun is crooked and rotates at the same time.

[Varaga]

"... On a cardboard target ..." And what else?! .. On a gold one, why should you shoot?! ..

[Givi_49]

Accuracy is low. It will be even lower in the air. Shoots across the squares. Is it necessary?

[Ballistic]

Accuracy is amazing! From how many meters is it so delicately accurate? From twenty?

[Sedoy]

tested the GSh-30 and measured the accuracy of the gun

some crap ...
what measurement of accuracy can we talk about at such a distance ...
for such a gun, the distance for accuracy should be measured per km, probably ...
and not like hand-held small arms at 100m

[Denis Kozlov]

Do you need to put in front of an old car or plane? for what, if the paper glued to the wall is good enough.

[Ilya_Nsk]

When the MiG-27 banged on tests from its GSh-6-30, it almost collapsed in the air

[Alan_McCormack]

hmmm, maybe the fact is that in order to measure the accuracy of a gun, a special indication is needed? I don’t think it’s expensive to print such a piece of paper