Military Review

Minor Civil War

233
Minor Civil War
United partisan army of the Tambov province


In the fall of 1920, when the last strong centers of the White movement were crushed - the Wrangel Crimea and Semyonovskaya Chita, the Bolsheviks had to strain their forces in the fight against the "green", rebels and bandits. Frunze, in the fight against them, introduced the term

"Small civil war".

Antonovshchina


This war did not look so small.

So, the entire Tambov and part of the Voronezh provinces were engulfed in an uprising led by the Socialist-Revolutionary Alexander Antonov.

The Tambov region was the breadbasket of Russia. The actions of the food detachments and commissaries caused widespread discontent among the peasantry. In addition, during the clash between the Red and White armies, masses of deserters were hiding on the territory of the Tambov province. Escaped soldiers with weapons united in gangs of "green".

In 1920, the province was hit by a drought. She became the catalyst for the uprising.

In August 1920, several villages revolted. They refused to hand over the bread. And with the support of the partisans, they began to destroy food detachments, local Bolsheviks and security officers.

The fire of the uprising spread rapidly.

Attempts by local Bolsheviks to suppress the uprising failed.

In October, Antonov's insurrectionary army numbered about 20 thousand fighters. Already Lenin called for an early defeat of the Antonovism.

In November 1920, the rebels formed the United Partisan Army of the Tambov Territory.

It was headed by a former policeman, Knight of St. George, Lieutenant Pyotr Tokmakov. The Greens formed three armies, including the cavalry. At the beginning of 1921, the insurgent army numbered up to 50 thousand bayonets and sabers. The rebels controlled almost the entire Tambov province, except for the cities, and paralyzed traffic on the Ryazan-Ural railway.

On the basis of the Socialist-Revolutionary organizations, the Union of the Working Peasantry was created. The union demanded "Soviets without Communists", the convocation of the Constituent Assembly, the introduction of political and economic freedoms, the abolition of the surplus appropriation system, etc. On May 20, 1921, the Provisional Democratic Republic of the Tambov Partisan Territory was proclaimed.

To suppress the Tambov uprising, Moscow had to mobilize up to 55 thousand Red Army men (including 10 thousand sabers), large artillery forces, several armored detachments and air squads, and an armored train. They even used chemical weapons.

In April 1921, Tukhachevsky was appointed commander of the Soviet troops in the Tambov province, Uborevich was his deputy, and Kakurin was the chief of staff. Kotovsky's cavalry brigade was transferred to the Tambov region. From the Cheka, the operation was headed by Yagoda and Ulrich.

Communists from Moscow, Petrograd and Tula were mobilized to help the Tambov Bolsheviks. At the same time, Tukhachevsky acted with the most cruel methods (in the style of Trotsky): terror, taking hostages, destroying entire settlements, creating concentration camps and mass executions.

However, the main factor was the use of peasant psychology. In February 1921, food distribution in the Tambov region was stopped. In March 1921, the X Congress of the Russian Communist Party canceled the surplus appropriation throughout the country.

A fixed tax in kind was introduced. A number of amnesties have been passed for ordinary insurgents. Campaign materials were widely used to alert the rebels. Already in February Antonov noted:

"Among the partisan detachments, the fighting spirit begins to weaken, shameful cowardice is observed."

He also correctly noted:

“Yes, the men won.

Although temporarily, of course.

But we, the fathers-commanders, are now covered. "

On May 25, 1921, Kotovsky's cavalry defeated two insurgent regiments led by Selyansky, who was mortally wounded.

In battles in late May - early June, in the area of ​​the Inzhavino station, Uborevich's troops (Kotovsky's brigade, 14th cavalry brigade, 15th Siberian cavalry division, and other units) defeated Antonov's 2nd insurgent army.

The main forces of the rebels were defeated, small groups scattered through the forests, many went home. By the end of the summer, the main centers of the partisan movement were suppressed.

Individual activists were caught until the summer of 1921.

Tokmakov died in battle, Alexander Antonov and his brother and closest associate Dmitry Antonov were liquidated by the Chekists in June 1922.


Headquarters of the Partisan Army of the Tambov Territory. A.S. Antonov in the center

The end of the Makhnovshchina


In southern Ukraine, the Makhnovism continued for some time.

After the fall of the white Crimea, the Soviet command offered Makhno's troops to redeploy to the Caucasus. Considering this a trap, the dad refused. The confrontation between the Reds and the Makhnovists began again. But this time, the Red Army could focus on fighting the Greens.

The operation was led by the commander of the Soviet forces in the Ukraine and Crimea, Frunze. The peasant republic was defeated. Makhno had to leave the Gulyapol area.

The Makhnovists “walked” around Ukraine for several months, avoiding persecution. However, no matter how much the rope twists, the end will be.

At the end of the summer of 1921, the remnants of Makhno's troops were pushed to the Romanian border. On August 28, a wounded old man with a small detachment crossed the Romanian border. The Romanians interned the Makhnovists.

Makhno fled to Poland, then Germany, France. He was poor (he didn't make any money), worked as a carpenter. He wrote memoirs, participated in the work of local anarchist organizations. He died in the summer of 1934 in Paris.

The uprisings continued throughout Russia.

In January 1921, Western Siberia burst into flames. "Green" detachments fought in the Tyumen, Omsk, Chelyabinsk, Yekaterinburg, Orenburg and Akmola provinces. The number of rebels reached 100 thousand people. The uprising was led by the Socialist-Revolutionary V. Rodin. The uprising was completely suppressed only by the end of 1922.

These were only large centers of the "minor civil war". There were others. Small gangs and groups continued to operate in the Right-Bank Ukraine. Both the ideological remnants of the Petliurites and just bandits. The Greens operated in the mountains of the Crimea, where many White Guards fled. On the Don, the Cossacks revolted in the Khopersky and Ust-Medveditsky districts.

There was a war with the highlanders in Dagestan and Chechnya. For some time in the Kuban and the North Caucasus the remnants of the Whites were active - generals Przhevalsky, Ukhtomsky, colonels Nazarov, Trubachev, lieutenant colonels Yudin, Krivonosov, etc. They numbered several thousand trunks. The uprisings continued in Transcaucasia, in particular in Armenia. The Basmach movement continued in Turkestan.

The threat of a new disaster


Thus, almost all of Russia was engulfed in the fire of the peasant, "green" war.

The rebels fielded entire armies, and in general had more bayonets and sabers than the White Army.

In addition, one should not forget about the criminal revolution that has swept the country since February 1917. Small and large bands roamed the villages and towns. Robbed, raped, killed. They shot dozens of policemen, crane soldiers and security officers. Controlled the "night" life of entire cities.

The threat was great. The country could collapse into chaos again. And there was practically no chance of getting out of the new wave of turmoil.

The scale of hostilities in 1921, neither in the number of participants, nor in territorial coverage, nor in political significance, was not inferior to 1918–1920, and in some places even surpassed them.

On the one hand - the "village", entire districts and provinces, the remnants of the White Guards and Makhnovists, Petliurists, Basmachi and bandit formations. On the other hand, practically the entire Red Army.

True, due to economic difficulties, the victory over the White Army and peace with Poland, it was drastically reduced - from 5 million to 800 thousand people.

Soviet Russia simply could no longer contain such a colossus. The country's mobilization potential has been exhausted. But they retained the most combat-ready units. It should also be borne in mind that parts of the Cheka, VOKHR (departmental armed guard), command courses, special purpose units (CHON), temporary units, which were formed from communists and Komsomol members, participated in this war.

The "green" movement as a whole did not touch the foundations of socialism. It acted under the slogan "Soviets without Communists", and often admitted communists as part of the socialist movement (like Makhno), on equal terms with other parties. Without the dictates of one party.

In many ways, the requirements and principles of the February Revolution were repeated. Constituent Assembly, pluralism of political opinions, multi-party system, political and economic freedoms. Refusal from centralization, command and administrative methods of managing the economy, freedom of trade, ownership of land and the products of one's labor.

The Bolsheviks will embody some of these demands in their New Economic Policy. That is, they will take the economic part, without politics.

Could the “third” or “green” way have saved Russia?

Suppose the Bolsheviks overextend themselves and are defeated, their party splits into several groups. The Soviet state and the Red Army have been destroyed.

There is anarchy in the countryside, there are no taxes, there is no need to serve in the army, there are no authorities. Society of "Free Farmers". The cities are covered by a new wave of hunger, the population is fleeing to the countryside, to subsistence farming. The remnants of industry and the unified transport system are dying.

New "parade of sovereignties". The invaders again come - the British, the French, the Japanese, the Romanians, etc. Poland again begins a war for the possessions of the whole of White and Little Russia. Polish lords create a puppet nationalist regime in Kiev.

The Finnish army captures Karelia and the Kola Peninsula. Wrangel's still surviving army landed in Crimea, and a South Russian government was created.

On this, Russia and the Russian people can be safely buried.

Russian civilization cannot withstand a new catastrophe.

Russians are removed from stories.
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
233 comments
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 5 March 2021 04: 16
    +1
    The Tambov wolf is your comrade ... This expression came from there. Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov fought with the Antonovites then, repeatedly participated in bloody battles with them, lost his comrades there. Well, in essence, this bloody conflict with the government brought nothing but trouble to the people of the Tambov region, many people died, many peasants found themselves in distress, and after the suppression of this uprising, the Tambov region decayed and became an ordinary backwater.
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 5 March 2021 05: 03
      +12
      The only force that could save the empire was the BOLSHEVIKS!
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 5 March 2021 05: 27
        +9
        The Bolsheviks were the most organized force at the time. At the head of their party were charismatic and intelligent people, they well understood what the people needed ... Peace to the people, factories for workers, land for peasants. The people believed them, but what could the whites offer?
        Back to tsarist Russia ... there are no bad ones.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 5 March 2021 05: 35
          +17
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          The people believed them, but what could the whites offer?
          Back to tsarist Russia ... there are no bad ones.

          All the more striking is the fact that many fellow citizens believe in PVV.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 5 March 2021 13: 22
            -5
            Quote: Stroporez
            All the more striking is the fact that many fellow citizens believe in PVV.

            laughing Valera, you’re so dumb now, we’ve been full of a fairy tale about communism!
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 5 March 2021 13: 38
              +5
              Quote: Serg65
              so bad it is now dumb, a fairy tale about communism ate to the full!

              Seryozha, ma or dumb, only ebnapunism also got drunk to vomit and turned from a superpower into a gas station with a garbage can in the yard and a cold wooden toilet.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 5 March 2021 13: 48
                -3
                Quote: Stroporez
                turned from a superpower to a gas station

                Yeah ... the entire CIS was filled with food and metal products.
                Quote: Stroporez
                with a trash heap in the yard and a cold wooden toilet.

                Remained of the Union? As a child, I lived .. all the amenities in the yard and with buckets on the second floor to fill the titanium on the wood in the bathroom.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 5 March 2021 14: 02
                  +9
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Remained of the Union? As a child, I lived .. all the amenities in the yard and with buckets on the second floor to fill the titanium on the wood in the bathroom.

                  So there is no Union for 30 years, and there are wooden "parasites" and they are still being heated with wood, who is stopping you geeks from transforming the country? Again the damned scoop? Or maybe your hands are not growing from your shoulder, but greed and arrogance prevail?
                  Someone yachts and palaces with "brushes", and someone a pension of 10 tyrov, lean cabbage soup and a wooden closet.
                  Is there a peremog?
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 5 March 2021 16: 05
                    +1
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Again the damned scoop?

                    The scoop is not in the closets, but in the heads.
                    1. clerk
                      clerk 8 March 2021 13: 34
                      0
                      ... The scoop is not in the closets, but in the heads.
                      In some heads, more like a closet than a scoop.
                  2. Serg65
                    Serg65 6 March 2021 10: 02
                    +1
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    there is no Union for 30 years, but there are wooden "parasites" and they still heat with firewood

                    Nostalgia for the past laughing
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Who is stopping you prodigies from transforming the country?

                    The greed and envy of some dreamers of revolutionary happiness Yes
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Someone yachts and palaces with "brushes", and someone a pension of 10 tyrov, lean cabbage soup and a wooden closet.

                    You're right, nothing has changed in a hundred years ... crying
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Is there a peremog?

                    what Are you from Tula?
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 5 March 2021 08: 04
          -8
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          At the head of their party were charismatic and smart people,

          by the fact These were never worked anywhere and never ruled anything overweight loafers- "theorists".
          .
          Here the question is simple: for the construction of a courtyard toilet, you will hire a team of "theoreticians" who did not hold a hammer in their hands never?

          So that later, after its construction, for absolutely inconceivable price, in the end, to be under, um, floor (see 1991)?
          The answer is obvious.

          Of the entire huge set of methods for managing the economy and society, they, accordingly, applied the most accessible to such "experts" - wild violence, open robbery, crackling lies.

          , the Bolsheviks had to strain their forces in the fight against the "green", rebels and bandits. Frunze, in the fight against them, introduced the term

          "Small civil war"

          Not with the "bandits", but with the PEOPLE.

          And the people, by the way, won: the Bolsheviks were FORCED to back down and they had to abolish the introduced communism for a while and cancel the provisional distribution, but introduce a tax in kind, introduce the NEP, i.e. , practically, in many respects returned to what it was before the VOR:
          Kuznetsky Most. You will leave, for an hour that way, at four, - smoke is a yoke: trotters, sodkoms, Nepmen, commissars ... Neither give nor take, as before the war, under the tsar
          .
          And the country revived: the agricultural economy and production were restored, some freedoms were almost at the pre-VOR level.

          And the people lived and ate for a little, several years ...

          In April 1921, he was appointed commander of Soviet troops in the Tambov province Tukhachevsky, his deputy - Uborevich, and the chief of staff - Kakurin. Kotovsky's cavalry brigade was transferred to the Tambov region. From the Cheka, the operation was headed Berry and Ulrich.


          It is significant that these punishers were trampled and destroyed by their own "comrades in the struggle"
          1. Malyuta
            Malyuta 5 March 2021 08: 43
            +17
            Quote: Olgovich
            about the fact, they were never working anywhere and never managed anything, overage loafers - "theorists"

            I am very sorry, but these people laid the foundation for the construction of a completely new, unprecedented before the village, people's state.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 5 March 2021 10: 41
              -11
              Quote: Malyuta
              I am very sorry, but these people laid the foundation for the construction of a completely new, unprecedented before the village, people's state.


              it was only a declaration, false as usual. What "new state?" The state of the Bolsheviks was the tyranny of the ruling elite, and later the atoritarianism of ONE person.
              The Soviets, as a form of government, were only a declaration, but from the very beginning they were led by the Small Sovnak-Commission, under the direction of Lenin and Sverdlov with CONSTANT participation in all decisions of Trotsky.
              There was a MILITARY COMMUNISM before the adoption of the Stalinist constitution, and this is not democracy or democracy, but the rule of power by a few by many.
              There was NEVER democracy in the Bolshevik state.
          2. Flooding
            Flooding 5 March 2021 09: 03
            +2
            While we can agree with some of your theses, logical inconsistencies are obvious.
            Quote: Olgovich
            in fact, these were overage "theoreticians" who had never worked anywhere and never managed anything.
            .
            Here the question is simple: for the construction of a courtyard toilet, will you hire a team of "theoreticians" who have never held a hammer in their hands?

            There are, after all, reverse examples, when experienced professionals got down to business:
            The Provisional Government
            reformers from Yeltsin's entourage, entirely highbrow economists and managers

            that is, it is not at all an indicator of the effectiveness of the length of time in managerial and organizational work
            1. tatra
              tatra 5 March 2021 09: 53
              +1
              Precisely, thanks to Soviet power, the enemies of the communists who seized the republics of the USSR received an excellent education. SO WHAT ? They turned out to be so worthless that they ruined all industries in all the republics of the USSR that they captured.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 5 March 2021 09: 56
                -1
                You have stated a fact.
                What conclusion should be drawn from this?
                1. tatra
                  tatra 5 March 2021 10: 03
                  +2
                  This is like a refutation of the words of the choice of "whites" at VO Olgovich. The half-educated seminarian created a powerful industrial superpower, and those who seized the USSR with a personal education could not even keep what they got from the USSR for free.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 5 March 2021 10: 54
                    -11
                    Quote: tatra
                    This is like a refutation of the words of the choice of "whites" at VO Olgovich. A dropout seminarian created a powerful superpower

                    What is ... a "superpower"? In consumption food, clothing, housing In freedoms (what was promised in 1917)?

                    Nope.

                    By 1953, she barely caught up with Russia by these indicators ..... 1913! (I immediately say that Non-military 1937 the year was still much worse than 1913 in terms of these indicators and in peaceful 1937 .... people continued to die of HUNGER!).

                    Let me remind you that people do not exist for the production of cast iron, but cast iron is produced for people.
                    Quote: tatra
                    and those who seized the USSR with a personal education could not even save what they got for free from the USSR

                    Have the Martians taken over? Or, after all, it's YOURS top party officials- educated, learned and raised exclusively by YOUR system (you can't push the king)? So claims to YOURSELF, yes ... And yes, I did not see you on the barricades in 1991, as well as the barricades themselves.

                    And the economy, alas, lost the competition in labor productivity, the introduction of scientific and technological revolution, production equipment, speed
                    1. tatra
                      tatra 5 March 2021 10: 58
                      +3
                      Here is an example of the classic lack of conscience of the enemies of the communists. They turned all the republics of the USSR they captured into beggars, backward markets for foreign products, for 30 years they parasitize due to the Soviet legacy, the export of natural resources and raw materials, and for all 30 years they emanate maniacal criticism of how the Soviet communists and their supporters worked, and all 30 For years they cowardly blamed on the communists the responsibility for their anti-communist Perestroika, in which they seized and divided the USSR among themselves.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 5 March 2021 11: 46
                        -9
                        Quote: tatra
                        Here is an example of the classic lack of conscience of the enemies of the communists. They turned everything captured them republics of the USSR

                        Uv. "Enemies of the Communists", but what about you, such successful communist builders and all the achievers, ....did not keep NOTHING with yours, absolute 70 years of power?

                        MARSIANE .... captured you?

                        Why didn't you fight them back, you are always so successful?

                        "There is no need to blame the mirror, if, yeah hi
                      2. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 11: 56
                        +3
                        So, it is immediately clear - who needed the country for the good of the country and the people, and who seized the country for criminal purposes - to the detriment of the country and the people. If the communists and their supporters have always been proud and proud of the October Revolution, then for 30 years their enemies cowardly dump on the communists and their supporters the responsibility for their counter-revolution in Perestroika. Enemies of the communists do not even need to be blamed, they themselves admit that they recognize their crimes, every time they cowardly blame others for what the fires did themselves.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 6 March 2021 08: 38
                        -2
                        Quote: tatra
                        So, it is immediately clear - who needed a country for the good of the country and the people, and who seized the country for criminal purposes - to the detriment of the country and the people

                        You, "successful builders" - WHERE were you when the Martians invaded your country, eh?
                        Quote: tatra
                        If the communists and their supporters have always been proud and proud of the October Revolution, then for 30 years their enemies cowardly dump on the communists and their supporters the responsibility for their counter-revolution in Perestroika. The enemies of the communists do not even need to be blamed, they themselves admit that they recognize their crimes, every time they cowardly blame others for what the fires did themselves.

                        incoherent speech again

                        So where are you, the "strong" ones so gone that the weaklings made you without a sound?
                    2. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 5 March 2021 11: 40
                      +3
                      In the consumption of food, clothing, housing, freedom (what was promised in 1917)?
                      Nope.
                      By 1953, she barely caught up with Russia by these indicators ..... 1913!

                      To show that this is not so, you just need to tell me the number of the population in 1940 and in 1913 (within the borders of the USSR).
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 5 March 2021 10: 26
              -11
              Quote: Flood
              While we can agree with some of your theses, logical inconsistencies are obvious.

              There are, after all, reverse examples, when experienced professionals got down to business:
              The Provisional Government
              reformers from Yeltsin's entourage, entirely highbrow economists and managers

              No "inconsistencies": inept ALWAYS build and do it badly - look back at your work, neighbors, friends - this is invariable.

              I do not consider the examples to be successful: the VP did not build ANYTHING and was not going to: he had single the task is to organize the world's first early general elections - in the US, with which it coped wonderfully: the highest standards of elections that were achieved were not achieved in the world soon (we do not have)

              EBNa was surrounded by the same "specialists" (plus foreign agents) that were in 1917. And the result, yes, it looks like hunger and ruin.
              Another example is the great French revolution
              Quote: Flood
              that is, it is not at all an indicator of efficiency experience management and organizational work

              experience, of course, is not: even if an oak has an experience of 100 years, it is still an oak ..

              But when even an intelligent person does not have it (for example, a surgeon), it also turns out to be nonsense.

              No, he, of course, will learn something: he will kill a dozen or three and learn (the same NEP after millions of victims). But the price, the price .....

              Moreover, it all happened again later ...
            3. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 5 March 2021 10: 39
              +6
              Quote: Flood
              There are, after all, reverse examples, when experienced professionals got down to business:
              The Provisional Government

              The Lord is with you, where did you see the "professionals" there? Perhaps "professional demagogues" and a little bit of lawyers. Prince Lvov and Konovalov were still doing something real, and Milyukov was a historian. Kerensky is a political attorney. Nekrasov and Manuilov are teachers, Guchkov is either a historian or an entrepreneur who sincerely believed that he knew about military affairs on the grounds that in his youth he participated as a volunteer in several wars.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 5 March 2021 13: 58
                0
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Prince Lvov and Konovalov

                profited from outright robberies of the treasury during the war ...
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 5 March 2021 17: 13
                  +2
                  You can interpret it that way.
                  But in any case, they had real experience in managing at least their own enterprises and they can still be classified as managers. Successful or not is another question.
            4. DrEng527
              DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 40
              -4
              Quote: Flood
              when experienced professionals got down to business:
              The Provisional Government

              the pros are Stolypin and Kokovtsev, but what did Kerensky manage?
              Quote: Flood
              reformers from Yeltsin's entourage, entirely highbrow economists and managers

              when all these editors merged and zavlabs, came the pro - Maslyukov ... wink
              1. gsev
                gsev 5 March 2021 16: 43
                +2
                Quote: DrEng527
                the pros are Stolypin and Kokovtsev,

                There is a fairly well-reasoned point of view that the 1917 revolution was caused by the consequences of the Stolypin reform.
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 6 March 2021 12: 53
                  0
                  Quote: gsev
                  There is a fairly well-reasoned point of view that the 1917 revolution was caused by the consequences of the Stolypin reform.

                  it's just that the reform was not completed and a class of owners did not manage to form in the village ... but there are many different points, for example, the February one on the conscience of the Allies in the Entente request
          3. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 09: 50
            +5
            Quote: Olgovich
            in fact, these were overage "theoreticians" who had never worked anywhere and never managed anything.
            The falsity of this statement has already been examined. Well, I’ll analyze the stupidity of this: the "theoreticians" ruled a considerable party under conditions of secrecy, were able to seize power and retain this power despite the fiercest armed resistance.

            Quote: Olgovich
            Here the question is simple: for the construction of a courtyard toilet, will you hire a team of "theoreticians" who have never held a hammer in their hands?
            Masterfully compared Russia with a yard toilet! laughing

            Quote: Olgovich
            applied the most accessible to such "experts" - wild violence, open robbery, crackling lies.
            Crackling lies in your comments, Olgovich.

            Quote: Olgovich
            Not with the "bandits", but with the PEOPLE.
            In the Red Army, the people, and the Greens and the Antonovites at that time were just bandits, but they also applied leniency and various amnesties, made it possible to return to a peaceful life.

            Quote: Olgovich
            And the people, by the way, won: the Bolsheviks were FORCED to back down and they had to abolish the introduced communism for a while and cancel the food distribution, but introduce a tax in kind, introduce the NEP
            The Bolsheviks did not fight with the PEOPLE, there were the same people in the cities and they should have been fed as it was. And communism, the military, in general, it is shameful to keep silent about it, as the NEP were originally temporary measures, so there is no question of any "victory" here.

            Quote: Olgovich
            It is significant that these punishers were trampled and destroyed by their own "comrades in the struggle"
            What a misery, for completely different reasons it was done.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 5 March 2021 11: 22
              -11
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              The falsity of this statement has already been examined.

              Lying Yes It's true.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, I’ll analyze the stupidity of this: the "theoreticians" ruled a considerable party under conditions of secrecy, were able to seize power and retain this power in spite of the fiercest armed resistance.

              1.party - no size

              2. Small number of terrorists also capture and subjugate huge masses of people.

              .3. So, what did I say? I repeat:
              applied the most accessible for such "experts" methods "- wild violence, open robbery, crackling lies. , here they ended up craftsmen (from INABILITY of anything else): destroyed MILLIONS of people, terrorized the rest and-saved
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Masterfully compared Russia with a yard toilet!

              What ... Russia? belay Even YOU would not allow these "craftsmen" to build this structure.

              Or ... would give Ulyanov some practice on myself? lol
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              There are people in the Red Army, and the Greens and Antonovites at that time were just bandits,

              EVERYWHERE the people and outside the army are a hundred times larger.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              The Bolsheviks did not fight with the PEOPLE, there were the same people in the cities and they should have been fed as it was. And communism, the military, in general, it is shameful to keep silent about it, as the NEP were originally temporary measures, so there is no question of any "victory" here.

              Onlyabout the destruction of the prodrazvestka and the NEP stopped the GW- tie yourself a knot

              And it was the NEP that fed and restored the cities.

              And then came constant hunger for decades and sacrifices from him in peacetime ..
              1. clerk
                clerk 5 March 2021 22: 59
                +1
                ... 1.party - no size
                ... In 1917, the number of the RCP (b) was 350 thousand people.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 6 March 2021 08: 45
                  0
                  Quote: clerk
                  In 1917, the number of the RCP (b) was 350 thousand people.

                  by the end. And we are talking about the period of the party's existence before the VOR.
                  1. clerk
                    clerk 6 March 2021 09: 59
                    +2
                    Before VOSR? "If in February 1917 the number of Bolsheviks was only 24 thousand, then at the end of April 1917, during the VII (April) conference of the RSDLP, it increased to 80 thousand, and during the VI Congress of the RSDLP (July 1917) - to 240 thousand members "(c).
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 6 March 2021 11: 21
                      0
                      Quote: clerk
                      Before VOSR? "If in February 1917 the number of Bolsheviks was only 24 thousand, t

                      it was precisely the tact until 1917, the period being discussed .. And the VOR became VOSR only in the 1930s.

                      The name at birth is a thief. Or OP
                      1. clerk
                        clerk 6 March 2021 13: 00
                        +2
                        .Before VOSR? "If in February 1917 the number of Bolsheviks was only 24 thousand, that was exactly the tact until 1917, the period being discussed ....
                        It is not the period that is discussed, but the leading experience of the Bolsheviks. Until April 17 - this is the division commander with reinforcement units, from April to VOSR - the commander of the army commander. VOSR is always VOSR, and she dispersed the thieves laughing
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 6 March 2021 14: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        It is not the period that is discussed, but the leading experience of the Bolsheviks

                        в under discussion the period of neither "leading" nor "experience" these parasites, loafers and hangers-on were not.

                        However, I'm lying: a balding ulyanov with his lamprey, like an experienced hooker, sent a tearful to his old pensioner from Paris: "Mom, send MONEY!"
                        Quote: clerk
                        Until April 17 - this is the division commander with reinforcement units, from April to VOSR - the commander of the army commander

                        before April-six, after-gopnik
                        Quote: clerk
                        VOSR is always VOSR, and she dispersed the thieves

                        A THIEF (study the question) is always a THIEF, and they will remain with the THIEFS at the head, who stole land, products, savings, freedom, property, wages, rights from people.
                      3. clerk
                        clerk 6 March 2021 16: 23
                        +1
                        ... the period under discussion was neither "leading" or "experience" of these parasites, loafers and hangers-on.
                        The guiding experience was quite good. And considerable. That's why they made your rotten empire like a kid. And the administrative experience (which in fact we are talking about) is a profitable and uncritical business.
                        ... Until April 17 - this is the division commander with reinforcement units, from April to VOSR - the commander of the army commander
                        /////// until April-six, after-gopnik
                        It was this kind of redneck snobbery that brought the empire to collapse, and the elite - to the wall.
                        ... A THIEF (study the question) is always a THIEF, and they will remain with the THIEFS at the head, who have stolen land, products, savings, freedom, property, wages, rights from people.
                        It is probably good to lament about the loss of something that 95-97% of the population never had? By the way, for what rights, land, wages and freedoms did 2 million Russian peasants dig in in 1914-17?
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 7 March 2021 10: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: clerk
                        The guiding experience was quite good. And considerable.

                        there was none.
                        Quote: clerk
                        That's why they made your rotten empire like a kid.

                        World War there was and yes, Russia resisted the bandits after the thief for another dozen years.

                        But yours rotted, decomposed and disappeared - without any war for ... ONE HOUR !.

                        Quote: clerk
                        It was this kind of redneck snobbery that brought the tree to collapse, and the tree to the wall.

                        Precisely they noticed: the whole ilitku was first trampled, and then they were shot at no one knows where: THE WHOLE first composition of your so-called. The "government" of the SNK, the entire composition of your Politburo, 78% of the Central Committee of the KPBEE, which I remember, only in one evening, they shot ... 21 NARKOMA
                        Quote: clerk
                        It is probably good to lament about the loss of something that 95-97% of the population never had?

                        Did not have?

                        Then why and who did your Tribute (Stalin said) collected for stripping, etc., if no one had anything? From whom and what was the gold confiscated from directly, and then through Torgsin?

                        And yes, 90% of the land before the thieves was owned and leased by peasants.

                        Your taken away all.

                        Transfer your apartment to municipal property and leave all the inheritance to the state, be consistent in your love.
                        Quote: clerk
                        By the way, for what rights, land, wages and freedoms did 2 million Russian peasants dig in in 1914-17?

                        For the Motherland people fought against the invaders (you don’t understand), but for what seven million people died of hunger in terrible agony in 1932-33 PEACE, as well as in 1918, as well as from hunger at 19,20,21,22,23,24,25,28,30,37,46,47, XNUMX - no one can understand until now.
                      5. clerk
                        clerk 7 March 2021 11: 23
                        +1
                        ... The guiding experience was quite good. And considerable. ////
                        there was none.
                        There was also a considerable one. You have been poked into this repeatedly.
                        ... That's why they made your rotten empire like a kid.
                        There was a world war, and yes, after the thief, Russia resisted the bandits for decades.
                        Individual bandits - yes, they resisted. But the country is not. And there is no need to nod at the world Aoin - the rotten empire almost collapsed after the completely insignificant Russian-Japanese empire. Which lost so shamefully that the whole world stopped perceiving Russia as an independent player, but only as a supplier of cannon fodder.
                        ... now yours have rotted, decomposed and disappeared - without any war in ... ONE HOUR !.
                        ... And again you are lying. Perestroika, when the country, the economy and society were hammered from all sides, lasted 5 years.
                        It was this kind of redneck snobbery that brought the tree to collapse, and the tree to the wall.

                        Precisely they noticed: the whole ilitku was first trampled, and then they were shot at no one knows where: THE WHOLE first composition of your so-called. The "government" of the SNK, the entire composition of your Politburo, 78% of the Central Committee of the KPBEE, which I remember, only in one evening, they shot ... 21 NARKOMA
                        Apparently, it turned out to be the same rot as the tsar with his mediocre relatives - backbones and other camarilla. laughing
                        It is probably good to lament about the loss of something that 95-97% of the population never had?

                        Did not have?

                        Then why and who did your Tribute (Stalin said) collected for stripping, etc., if no one had anything? From whom and what was the gold confiscated from directly, and then through Torgsin?
                        On a national scale - A pitiful penny, for which it's not that you can't build a decent factory - you can't even take whores to Courchevel.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 7 March 2021 12: 26
                        -1
                        Quote: clerk
                        There was also a considerable one. You have been poked into this repeatedly.

                        empty BOLTOVNYU - into the furnace, yes.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Individual bandits - yes, they resisted.

                        the usurpers seized power. And the people performed in the 1930s - thousands of performances, brutally suppressed
                        Quote: clerk
                        rotten empire nearly collapsed n

                        the rotten ones collapsed IN AN HOUR - without any war in 91.
                        Quote: clerk
                        as an independent player, but only as a supplier cannon meat.

                        Exactly! This is exactly how Churchillies with Roosevelts, after whom someone had been running for THREE years, begged to open a second front and were counting.

                        Because Russia's losses in WWII are 9% of world losses, and in WWII 53% of world losses (in both cases, without China)
                        Quote: clerk
                        ... And again you are lying. Perestroika, when the country, the economy and society were hammered from all sides, lasted 5 years.

                        You lie, for one HOUR, your disappeared-WITHOUT the resistance of anyone.

                        Perestroika is the Martians or yours? What kind of "economy" to beat if it has already hopelessly lagged behind everyone else? WHERE IS THE WORLD WAR?
                        Quote: clerk
                        Apparently, it turned out to be the same rot as the tsar with his mediocre relatives - backbones and other camarilla


                        rot at you-70-90% of the leadership of the party of the thief.
                        it turned out.

                        Name where else in the world such a percentage of rot was.
                        yours to "talentless" - how to go back to Moscow: they built the largest country in the world and the fastest growing second people in the world. Your "builders" are a nibble from the country and a dying people.
                        Did you get the difference?
                        Quote: clerk
                        you can't even take whores to Courchevel.

                        lol yours thought differently - they fought and ripped off mercilessly
                        Of course. Only the difference between property and rent, as between eating yourself and just holding the food in your hands. Therefore, you are afraid to give data on how much land the peasants had in their ownership.


                        in private ownership - almost 2 million farms - the requested one - many times more - the thief stopped

                        Those are a MILLION times more than with your ghouls
                        Quote: clerk
                        Well, if the apartment was communal

                        Don't talk nonsense: ALL real estate in the cities was taken away from the people by the decree of bandits, and GIVE it to the state voluntarily without reservations, hypocrite. Like the inheritance, by decree of the bandits, it is the property of the state.
                        Quote: clerk
                        That is, Samsonov's army was killed in East Prussia in 1914 in the fight against the invaders?

                        Like the Chernyakhovsky field in the same East Prussia in 1945, this also does not reach?
                        Quote: clerk
                        Well, in the first place, one should not repeat Goebel's nonsense - not7, but 3. And secondly, because at the instigation of the opponents of the Soviet regime, 30% of the crop rotted in the fields.

                        Quote: clerk
                        rotted in the fields 30%

                        fool Have rotted away, so that YOURSELF ..... die of hunger and eat corpses? No words ... no conscience ...

                        Bye
                      7. clerk
                        clerk 7 March 2021 17: 44
                        +1
                        I am writing this post after I have responded to your discomfort about the allegedly contradictory position of my position, so the tone will be different.
                        ... rotted in the fields 30%
                        //////
                        fool Dropped, so that YOURSELF ..... to starve to death and eat corpses? No words ... no conscience ...
                        This is not a question of conscience - it is a question of a very bitter historical truth that is inconvenient for all parties. The peasants (especially Ukrainian) hoped that if the state takes 35% of the harvest, then rotting this part in the fields ("enough for us, let the urban ones die") hoped to bring the state to its knees. But the peasants miscalculated - the state still took its own (although less than planned), and the peasants themselves were left without bread. And given that the cattle was massively put under the knife a couple of years earlier (just not to give it to the collective farm), then there were no more options for salvation from hunger. PS I can answer in the same style to your other theses (they have enough vulnerabilities and errors), but I will refrain as a gesture of goodwill. hi
                      8. clerk
                        clerk 7 March 2021 11: 36
                        +2
                        ... And yes, 90% of the land before the thieves was owned and leased by peasants.
                        Of course. Only the difference between property and rent, as between eating yourself and just holding the food in your hands. Therefore, you are afraid to give data on how much land the peasants had in their ownership.
                        ... Transfer your apartment to municipal ownership and leave the entire inheritance to the state, be consistent in your love.
                        Well, if the apartment was communal (like the land of the Russian peasants), then perhaps it would have to be done. laughing
                        ... By the way, for what rights, land, wages and freedoms did 2 million Russian men dug in 1914-Motherland ///////
                        People fought for the Motherland against the invaders (you do not understand),
                        That is, Samsonov's army was killed in East Prussia in 1914 in the fight against the invaders?
                        ... that's why seven million people died of hunger in terrible agony in the PEACEFUL 1932-33,
                        Well, in the first place, one should not repeat Goebel's nonsense - not7, but 3. And secondly, because at the instigation of the opponents of the Soviet regime, 30% of the crop rotted in the fields.
                      9. clerk
                        clerk 7 March 2021 11: 56
                        +1
                        ... e in 1918, as well as from hunger in 19,20,21,22,23,24,25,28,30,37,46,47 - no one can understand until now.
                        ... Yes, all normal people have long understood that the famine of the times of the Civil War and 1946-47. - this is a consequence of the wars unleashed, respectively, by the whites and the Nazis, and the rest is the fruit of your exuberant imagination.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 7 March 2021 15: 23
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        ... Yes, all normal people have long understood that the famine of the times of the Civil War and 1946-47. - this is a consequence of the wars unleashed, respectively, by the whites and the Nazis, and the rest is the fruit of your wild imagination.

                        you are illiterate to amazement
                        It is not clear why, under Mashkov's article, you write the right things, some pluses from me, but here ... as if a different person?
                      11. clerk
                        clerk 7 March 2021 17: 31
                        +1
                        ... Quote: clerk
                        ... Yes, all normal people have long understood that the famine of the times of the Civil War and 1946-47. - this is a consequence of the wars unleashed, respectively, by the whites and the Nazis, and the rest is the fruit of your exuberant imagination.
                        ///////
                        you are illiterate to amazement
                        Of course, I am far from an encyclopedist, but I know about the card system in the second half of the 20s and 30s. But this is not yet hunger.
                        ... It is not clear why, under Mashkov's article, you write the right things, some pluses from me, but here ... as if a different person?
                        Of course, there is an element of trolling here (sorry), but in this way I am trying to show that the way you have chosen to fight the current communoids by denigrating the Soviet past is ineffective and, moreover, harmful, since it splits society. all kinds of harmful influences.
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 March 2021 08: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        certainly not an encyclopedist, but I know about the card system in the second half of the 20s and 30s. But this is not yet hunger.

                        Death of 13,2 million from hunger with massive cannibalism, corpse eating is ,,, not hunger?
                        Quote: clerk
                        Of course, there is an element of trolling here (sorry), but in this way I am trying to show that the way you have chosen to fight the current communoids by denigrating the Soviet past is ineffective and, moreover, harmful, since it splits society.

                        And I am not fighting with anyone, what is the matter with you? Can't it blacken when it comes? There would be no crime, there would be nothing to talk about. Lies put you on the same level with them - and how are you better then?

                        So you didn't show anything other than, um, yeah.
                        Quote: clerk
                        moreover, it is harmful, since it splits society, and a split society, accordingly, is less resistant to all kinds of harmful influences.


                        nonsense: with normal people who act within the framework of the laws and are not ready to surrender the country and its interests to all England in a row, just to dump the redhead, there is always a common platform

                        PS you have nothing to do ?.
                      13. clerk
                        clerk 8 March 2021 09: 04
                        +2
                        ... certainly not an encyclopedist, but I know about the card system in the second half of the 20s and 30s. But this is not hunger yet. ////////
                        Death of 13,2 million from hunger with massive cannibalism, corpse eating is ,,, not hunger?
                        I don’t understand what years does your figure of 13,2 million refer to? This is much more than all the losses from hunger in the first 30 years of Soviet power.
                        I'm not fighting with anyone, what's wrong with you? Can't it blacken when it comes? There would be no crime, there would be nothing to talk about. Lies put you on the same level with them - and how are you better then?
                        What did I lie about? If by falsehood you meant half-truth, then you can also present the same claims. I see no reason to polarize today's society with such uncompromising statements - then there were no innocent people.
                        ... nonsense: with normal people who act within the framework of the laws and are not ready to surrender the country and its interests to all England in a row, just to dump the redhead, there is always a common platform
                        Of course. But the split must be overcome not only in the present, but also in the past. Often times, the past split is stronger than the present
                        PS you have nothing to do ?.
                        Every citizen has the right to rest (c) Plus the possible acquisition of new knowledge wink
                      14. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 March 2021 10: 18
                        -1
                        Quote: clerk
                        I don’t understand what years does your figure of 13,2 million refer to? This is much more than all the losses from hunger in the first 30 years of Soviet power.

                        1922,23,24,25,28,30,32,33,37,46,47.

                        But in the Civil War, many died of hunger, and already in the fall of 1918 in St. Petersburg there were cases of cannibalism. And in the Second World War they were dying of hunger in the rear (Bashkiria0 Fell, etc.)
                        Quote: clerk
                        What did I lie about? If by lies you meant half-truths then you can also present the same claims. I see no reason to polarize today's society with such uncompromising statements - then there were no innocent people.

                        You can’t show me anything — one, excuse me, idle chatter and conjectures is the answer to the FACTS.

                        Your lies are at the top, there is no half-truth.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Of course. But the split must be overcome not only in the present, but also in the past. Often times, the past split is stronger than the present

                        Time Traveler? lol

                        With some ardent communists, I have here too full agreement and mutual respect-It is based on the above principles. (although it came to big bans initially)

                        As for the present, many of Ulyanov do not already know. Further more
                        Quote: clerk
                        Every citizen has the right to rest (c) Plus the possible acquisition of new knowledge

                        not a split, already good. Yes
                      15. clerk
                        clerk 8 March 2021 12: 18
                        +1
                        ... 1922,23,24,25,28,30,32,33,37,46,47 o and many people died of hunger in GV, and already in the fall of 1918 there were cases of cannibalism in St. Petersburg. And in the Second World War they were dying of hunger in the rear (Bashkiria0 Fell, etc.)
                        The famine of the times of the Civil War and immediately after / is the fault of all (!) Warring parties. The famine of the Second World War and after is the fault of Nazism. Of the remaining years, the Bolsheviks can be blamed for the famine of 1930-33. The rest is already pulling the owl onto the globe.
                        .
                        You can’t show me anything — one, excuse me, idle chatter and conjectures is the answer to the FACTS.
                        I'm not going to present you with anything - you are not a defendant and I am not a prosecutor. But I can draw your attention to certain omissions. Thus, 2 million peasant farms actually owned land. From EMNP 15. Chernyakhovsky died in East Prussia during the war to repel the aggression. WWI, whatever one may say, was not an aggression against Russia. The victims of the USSR in WWII for> 2/3 of the perished prisoners and civilians and entirely on the conscience of the Nazis.
                      16. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 9 March 2021 11: 24
                        -1
                        Quote: clerk
                        The famine of the times of the Civil War and immediately after / is the fault of all (!) Warring parties.

                        what nonsense?

                        Before the thieves, there was no GW or hunger. It's just a FACT: tie yourself a knot.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Hunger of times WWII and after - this is the fault of Nazism

                        Even in the Second World War, in those places where there was a famine of 46-47, there was no such thing.

                        And remember, there WAS bread in the country, but it went in echelons through the starving regions to ... Romania, Hungary, France. Those. there were no dead in Romania (they ate conscientious bread), and in the conscience of moldavia, there were many more
                        Quote: clerk
                        The rest is already pulling the owl onto the globe.

                        you got it from ignorance, yeah

                        Yep, the Martians are to blame for the rest, this is the blessed 37g:
                        Food difficulties are felt in 65 districts of the region (out of 110), including 18 districts of the MASSR (out of 23). ... In total, during the winter in 14 districts had place 62 deaths due to hunger.
                        ... Eating various surrogates is observed in the vast majority of collective farms in districtsexperiencing food difficulties. In Krasno-Slobodsky, Kamensky and other areas, the use of food was falling.
                        Quote: clerk
                        But I can draw your attention to certain omissions. So, land was actually owned by 2 million peasant farms

                        what is indicated to you. And this was only a small part of those who wanted to - thieves prevented
                        Quote: clerk
                        Chernyakhovsky died in East Prussia during the war to repel the congression. WWI, whatever one may say, was not an aggression against Russia.

                        whatever one may say, you do not know the history of your country: in WWI and WWII, our country became a VICTIM of aggression.
                        Quote: clerk
                        The victims of the USSR in WWII for> 2/3 of the dead prisoners and civilians and entirely on the conscience of the Nazis.

                        Anyone who was unable to defend millions of km2 of their territory is no longer guilty?

                        .And in 1917 the front was 2000 km west of the Volga 1942
                        ?? If you consider it a lie the deliberate destruction of cattle by peasants in 1930 and grain in the harvest of 1932,
                        they slaughtered the cattle - do not give it to the bandits for free?

                        harvest of 32 g harvested NOT worse than 1931, read Stalin, finally!
                      17. clerk
                        clerk 9 March 2021 19: 48
                        -1
                        ... Before the thieves, there was no GW or hunger. It's just a FACT: tie yourself a knot.
                        This is an AX LIE. The terror against government officials and officers began in the spring of 1917, the creation of the White Army was completed before 1918, and especially in the Cossack regions, so that the Cossacks would be affected by countermeasures (a separate deliberate meanness of the founders of the White movement).
                        ... The famine of the Second World War and after is the fault of Nazism
                        ////// Even in the Second World War, in those places where there was a famine of 46-47, there was no such thing.
                        I didn't understand - what wasn't there?
                        remember, at the same time there was bread in the country, but it went in echelons through the starving regions to .... Romania, Hungary, France. Those. there were no dead in Romania (they ate conscientious bread), and in the conscience of moldavia, there were many more
                        Soviet export figures in 1946-47 can you lead?
                      18. The comment was deleted.
                      19. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 9 March 2021 20: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        This is an AX LIE. The terror against government officials and officers began in the spring of 1917,

                        it wild IGNORANCE: not even a single Bolshevik bolshevik declared about the GV before the thief - only in November 1917
                        Quote: clerk
                        the creation of the White Army was completed before 1918, and especially in the Cossack regions, so that the response measures would affect the Cossacks (a separate deliberate meanness of the founders of the White movement).

                        belay fool lol Where thieves were least supported, there was
                        Quote: clerk
                        I didn't understand - what wasn't there?

                        What were we talking about, about parrots? But he was not in the Second World War in Novorossia, Bessarabia, Little Russia, but he was there in 46-47
                        Quote: clerk
                        Soviet export figures in 1946-47 can you lead?

                        is it ... educational program? Read the author Winter, search engine, etc.
                      20. clerk
                        clerk 9 March 2021 20: 33
                        0
                        .this is wild IGNORANCE: not even a single Bolshevik bolshevik declared about the GW BEFORE the thief, only in November 1917
                        ... That is, mass killings of officers, hundreds of peasant demonstrations, hundreds of strikes - this is not a GV type? Update the training manual - it is completely meaningless to you.
                        the creation of the White Army was completed before 1918, and especially in the Cossack regions, so that the retaliatory measures would affect the Cossacks (a separate deliberate meanness of the founders of the White movement).
                        belay fool lol Where the thieves were least supported, it was there that
                        You have a false training manual, the Cossacks were initially neutral and did not support anyone. But the Whites in their correspondence openly wrote that they should provoke the Cossacks to protest against the Reds.
                        ... he was not in the Second World War in Novorossia, Bessarabia, Little Russia, but he was there in 46-47
                        In the Second World War there was the help of the allies and less settlement. Or are they not taught such simple things in your training manual?
                        But I can draw your attention to certain omissions. So, land was actually owned by 2 million peasant farms (out of 15) //: /
                        what is indicated to you. And this was only a small part of those who wanted to - thieves prevented
                        Well, of course. Since 1861, they interfered with laughing
                        ... whatever one may say, you do not know the history of your country: in WWI and WWII, our country became a VICTIM of aggression.
                        Don't lie about PMV.
                        ... The victims of the USSR in WWII for> 2/3 of the perished prisoners and civilians and entirely on the conscience of the Nazis.
                        / / / /
                        Anyone who was unable to defend millions of km2 of their territory is no longer guilty?
                        ... In the death of a lay woman and prisoners in the territories occupied by the enemy, he is innocent.
                        ... Soviet export figures in 1946-47 can you lead? ////
                        is it ... educational program? Read the author Winter, search engine, etc.
                        That is, you do not own the material. CHTD
                      21. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 9 March 2021 21: 07
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        That is, mass killings of officers, hundreds of peasant rallies, hundreds of strikes — is this not a GV?

                        type-no: learn-WHAT is GV (definition) and how does it differ from attacks, for example, bandits, according to your logic, today in Moscow-three acts of GV-three robberies lol
                        ONCE AGAIN, even the Bolsheviks did NOT talk about GW before the thief (although it was oh, how profitable for them) -tk. she was not there. recognized her in they in NOVEMBER,
                        Quote: clerk
                        Update the training manual - it is completely meaningless to you.

                        Go to school and read at least the decrees of the Soviet government lol
                        Quote: clerk
                        In the Second World War there was allied help and settling... Or are they not taught such simple things in your training manual?

                        Your non-Russian training manual, translation from English?
                        Quote: clerk
                        Well, of course. Since 1861, they interfered with

                        в 1917 prevented, it has not reached you for the THIRD time, it is alarming.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Don't lie about PMV.

                        To school, my dear man initial SCHOOL! Yes
                        Quote: clerk
                        In the death of a lay woman and prisoners in the territories occupied by the enemy, he is innocent.

                        You are clearly not a Russian .... In the territories that are NOT allowed for occupation, there is NO death of the peacekeeper. Did you get it?
                        Quote: clerk
                        That is, you do not own the material. CHTD

                        lol laughing But shouldn't I sneeze - who and what will think of me?

                        These FACTS are well known to everyone who in the slightest degree WISHES to know the topic - you don't want to know, you don't need to


                        belay WHO Denied Slaughtering? fool

                        NO ONE in collective farm (for free) I didn’t want to give my OWN.

                        You do not own the material at all. Gross harvest: 1930 / 31- 83,5 million tons
                        1931/32 - 69,5
                        1932/33 - 69,9 million tons
                        Read STALIN in January 1933, ignorant lol
                      22. clerk
                        clerk 9 March 2021 22: 14
                        -1
                        ]]
                        ... type-no: learn-WHAT is GV (definition) and how does it differ from attacks, for example, bandits, according to your logic, today in Moscow-three acts of GV-three robberies
                        I explain
                        Once again, the massacres of officers by sailors are not robberies, but terrorist attacks in today's terms. A terrorist attack is one of the forms of GW.
                        ... Well, of course. Since 1861 they hindered /////
                        in 1917 they interfered, it didn’t come to you for the THIRD time, it’s alarming.
                        Well, of course - in 56 years only 15% of peasant farms were able to get ownership of land, and the Bolsheviks are to blame. fool
                        ... In the death of a lay woman and prisoners in the territories occupied by the enemy, he is innocent.
                        ////// ::
                        You are clearly not a Russian .... In the territories that are NOT allowed for occupation, there is NO death of the peacekeeper. Did you get it?
                        This is you tell the Leningrad blockade or those who died from the military superfluous on the unoccupied territory.
                        ... NOBODY wanted to give OWN to the collective farm (for free).
                        But nevertheless, not everyone began to destroy the cattle, dooming themselves to a year's death.
                      23. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 9 March 2021 22: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        A terrorist attack is one of the forms of GW.

                        ignorance, ugh
                      24. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 08: 38
                        -1
                        ... ignorance, phew These FACTS are well known to all who, in the slightest degree, WISH to know the topic, do not want to know, do not. Go to school - go and read at least the decrees of the soviet government To school, my dear man - to elementary SCHOOL
                        ... Sorry for the private question - in what year did you yourself graduate from school? And that very much EdRovskoe anticommunoid training is felt ...
                      25. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 March 2021 09: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        Sorry for the private question - in what year did you yourself graduate from school? And that very much EdRovskoe anticommunoid training is felt ..

                        belay fool lol about 50 years ago
                        Quote: clerk
                        Unlike you, I read him - he compares 1932 to 1931.

                        just about, but you, who speaks poorly in Russian, did not realize that he was talking about the harvest of 32 years, which = NOT LESSER ur 31 g

                        ps What is alliance do you mean?

                        Google translate let you down? Are you from the USA?
                      26. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 11: 21
                        -1
                        ... Sorry for the private question - in what year did you yourself graduate from school? And then very much EdRovskoe anticommunoid training is felt ..////////
                        belay fool lol about 50 years old
                        ... Probably some kind of emigrant ??? ((((.
                        .
                        just about, but you, who speaks poorly in Russian, did not realize that he was talking about the harvest of 32 years, which = NOT LESSER ur 31 g
                        Less. In 1931 there was still a supply of the harvest of 1930, and in 1932 there was no more - there was nothing to help the starving.


                        ps What does this all-inclusive mean to you? Google translate let you down? Are you from the USA?
                        Do you mean the phrase "In the Second World War there was the help of the allies and less settling."? It's just a jumble of autocorrect for the word "population". (noticed late and did not have time to fix it). One could understand from the context. If you were a native Russian language wink
                      27. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 March 2021 13: 27
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        Probably some kind of emigrant ???

                        lol
                        Quote: clerk
                        Less... In 1931 there was still a supply of the harvest of 1930, and in 1932 there was no more - there was nothing to help the starving.

                        finally got it.

                        And the stocks were for export
                        Quote: clerk
                        check-in. "? It's just a jumble of autocorrect for the word" population. "

                        Google translate failed, of course.

                        civilian, German7 wink
                      28. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 13: 57
                        0
                        .For less. In 1931 there was still a supply of the harvest of 1930, and in 1932 there was no more - there was nothing to help the starving.
                        ////:
                        finally got it.
                        And the stocks were for export
                        ... For you, on this export (at the level before WWI), the light converged like a wedge. If in 1932 the ukrokrestians had not rotted 4 million tons of grain out of 14,7 million grown in the fields, then there would not have been any famine.
                        ... Quote: clerk
                        check-in. "? It's just a jumble of autocorrect for the word" population. "
                        Google translate failed, of course.
                        civilian, German 7 wink
                        Not guessing. Don't judge by yourself. wink By the way, autocorrect is not only in translators
                      29. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 10 March 2021 09: 02
                        0
                        Well, of course - in 56 years only 15% of peasant farms were able to get ownership of land, and the Bolsheviks are to blame.

                        The funny thing is that this property is ephemeral for many - I cannot now find a pre-revolutionary collection to show the number of farms before the war with debts to the Land Bank for non-payment of land.
                      30. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 06: 31
                        -1
                        ... You do not own the material at all. Gross harvest: 1930 / 31- 83,5 million tons
                        1931/32 - 69,5
                        1932/33 - 69,9 million tons ////
                        Read STALIN in January 1933, ignorant lol
                        Unlike you, I read him - he compares 1932 to 1931.
                      31. clerk
                        clerk 9 March 2021 20: 52
                        0
                        ... ?? If you consider it a lie the deliberate destruction of cattle by peasants in 1930 and grain for the harvest in 1932, /////
                        they slaughtered the cattle - do not give it to the bandits for free?
                        We will write off the nonsense about "giving for nothing" to a crooked manual, but otherwise I am glad that you are beginning to acknowledge the facts.
                        . harvest 32 g harvested NOT worse than 1931, read Stalin, finally!
                        You do not own the material at all. Gross harvest: 1930 / 31- 83,5 million tons
                        1931/32 - 69,5
                        1932/33 - 69,9 million tons
                      32. clerk
                        clerk 8 March 2021 12: 33
                        +1
                        ... Your lies are at the top, there is no half-truth.
                        ????? If you consider it a lie the deliberate destruction of cattle by the peasants in 1930 and grain for the harvest in 1932, then I must disappoint you - this is terrible, bitter and unpleasant for everyone (!), But true. If you consider some of my theses a lie, then I can explain.
            2. lucul
              lucul 5 March 2021 12: 14
              -10
              Well, I’ll analyze the stupidity of this: the "theoreticians" ruled a considerable party under conditions of secrecy, were able to seize power and retain this power in spite of the fiercest armed resistance.

              Yeah, and this method was later called the Red Terror - the uprisings were simply drowned in blood.
              How so - after all, the people were so thirsty for the power of the Bolsheviks (in your opinion) that they had to drown in blood?
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 12: 22
                +5
                Quote: lucul
                Yeah, and this method was later called the Red Terror - the uprisings were simply drowned in blood.
                Even the anti-Soviet did not invent such nonsense:
                red terror ... ... but against outlawed layers of society: nobles, landowners, officers, priests, kulaks, Cossacks, scientists, industrialists and the like

                Objective historians and patriots define the Red Terror as follows:
                Another part of historians characterizes the Red Terror as an extreme and forced, protective and retaliatory measure, as a reaction against the White and international intervention, and considers the beginning of the Red Terror the decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the RSFSR of September 5, 1918 "On the Red Terror"


                Quote: lucul
                How so - after all, the people were so thirsty for the power of the Bolsheviks (in your opinion) that they had to drown in blood?
                Count the numbers before you become like Ol'gych, several tens of thousands, and even hundreds, which, incidentally, were not, this is far from all the people.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 5 March 2021 12: 35
                  -7
                  Even the anti-Soviet did not invent such nonsense:

                  History is always written by the winners - so here too, the Bolsheviks put the thought into their immature heads that everything happened by itself.
                  This is akin to Goebel's propaganda, when the Russians took a city with a fight, and he reported on the radio that the city had been surrendered to the local militia, and the Germans left there themselves.
                  So it is with you - the uprisings were drowned in blood - that no, there was nothing like that, everything went away by itself.
          4. tatra
            tatra 5 March 2021 09: 50
            +5
            You, the "people" - the enemies of the Bolshevik-Communists, have proved that you are not capable and not worthy of owning the country. For all 103 years of the Soviet and your anti-Soviet periods, for your country and people there is only a stupid, spiteful AGAINST everything Soviet and a complete lack of a sense of responsibility for what you did under Soviet power, starting with the Civil Civil War unleashed by you, to your Perestroika, for 30 years after you captured the USSR.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 43
              -5
              Quote: tatra
              starting with the Civilian you unleashed,

              lies .... it was the October coup and overclocking of the US that provoked GW in Russia request
              Quote: tatra
              into your Perestroika

              perpetrated by the leadership of the CPSU, tk. led the country into an economic dead end - they bought up to 25% of grain consumed ... request
              1. tatra
                tatra 5 March 2021 11: 51
                0
                Here, I already wrote below. You, the enemies of Soviet power - "chameleons", you simultaneously blame the Bolsheviks for the outbreak of the Civil War, and at the same time praise and justify the external and internal enemies of the Bolsheviks who unleashed the Civil War with the aim of capturing Russia, including your "heroes" -holding the Anglo-Saxons Kolchak, lacking Krasnov's Germans, they erected monuments to them. And in this thread you are defending those who unleashed a war against the Bolsheviks.
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 02
                  -6
                  Quote: tatra
                  You, enemies of Soviet power

                  Yes
                  Quote: tatra
                  you at the same time blame the Bolsheviks for the responsibility for unleashing the Civil War

                  This is by no means a fact, I described it earlier:
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  it was the October coup and overclocking of the US that provoked the GW in Russia

                  Let me remind you that it was the VIL that called for turning the imperialist war into a civil war, so this is the goal of the Bolsheviks! And they realized it! Think about their plan - GW is the most terrible war and they were ready for it - for WHY?
                  Quote: tatra
                  Oliya Anglo-Saxons Kolchak, lackey Germans Krasnov, erected monuments to them

                  Let's look at the VIL, which was brought in a sealed carriage by the Germans and with their own money conducted campaigning and formed armed detachments of the Red Guard, or Trotsky from the United States ... request
                  Quote: tatra
                  who unleashed a war against the Bolsheviks.

                  It was a retaliatory war for Russia with German and American agents - like they will do it, but smarter and more cynical ... hi
                  1. tatra
                    tatra 5 March 2021 12: 08
                    +1
                    Enemies of the Communists, I do not need your "footcloths", be able to briefly state your anger AGAINST. After all, NOTHING and ANYONE good for you for all 103 years of your malice AGAINST the Soviet-did not appear for your country and people. So, the enemies of the communists spar according to their anti-Soviet manuals, not even understanding their meaning, unable to prove and substantiate them. Explain how the POWER, and the Bolsheviks were the power in Russia since October 25, 1917, can unleash a Civil War in their country.
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 12
                      -7
                      Quote: tatra
                      Explain how the POWER, and the Bolsheviks were the power in Russia since October 25, 1917, can unleash a Civil War in their country.

                      corny - just like the Bandera in 2014 seized power in Kiev, and Crimea went to Russia, and Donbass is at war with them ... hi
                      1. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 12: 17
                        0
                        This is what was required to be proved. The war in Ukraine was unleashed by the enemies of those who seized power. And not the government itself maydanut. The authorities can NOT unleash a Civil War in their country. The enemies of the communists lie, even contrary to elementary logic and common sense, just to justify their seizure of the USSR.
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 39
                        -6
                        Quote: tatra
                        And not the maidan government itself

                        everything is clear with you! you are Russophobic and Bandera bot! request
                        Quote: tatra
                        rebutting elementary logic and common sense,

                        you have neither logic nor common sense! you can't even grasp causation! I'll chew you - having forcibly seized power and the Bolsheviks and Bandera unleashed civil wars! And based on your logic, it is not the rapist who is to blame, but the victim, especially if she resists ... a strange position for a woman ... request however, a supporter of communism does not have logic ... hi
                      3. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 12: 44
                        0
                        Here, immediately "hanging labels" on dissidents. Once again, as you, the enemies of the Bolsheviks, after the October Revolution, together with your accomplices, the invaders of Russia, the interventionists and the Germans, unleashed a war against the new government, so in Ukraine the opponents of the new government unleashed a war against it.
                      4. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 13: 53
                        -3
                        Quote: tatra
                        Here, immediately "hanging labels" on dissidents.

                        1) see your posts above.
                        2) you were briefly qualified according to your "thoughts" what is the problem?
                        Quote: tatra
                        Again ,

                        do not, I already understood that you are Bandera and Russophobic! request
                      5. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 14: 11
                        -3
                        Yes, the enemies of the communists for all 30 years of your "freedom of speech" have been proving that you fiercely hate dissidents. And Bandera is all the same YOU, the enemies of the Communists, who hate everything Soviet. And, like you, after the seizure of the republic of the USSR, who immediately began to destroy the Russian.
                      6. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 14: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: tatra
                        that you hate dissidents fiercely.

                        what nonsense! bully Only in the USSR, at best, was imprisoned for any dissent!
                        Quote: tatra
                        immediately began to destroy the Russian.

                        double delirium of an illiterate who has not read the works of VIL! You, Bandera and Russophobic, should not know that it was the Bolsheviks who included the Russian lands in the national republics!
                        And the last thing - I'm happy with the hysteria of the Russophobia! wink
                      7. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 14: 16
                        -6
                        I stop communicating with the liar and the slanderer. The enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people have a mental inclination to slanderous accusations of people.
                      8. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 14: 55
                        0
                        Quote: tatra
                        I stop communicating with the liar and the slanderer.

                        declaration and demagoguery - you have not proved a single fact of slander and lies from me! but you lie and slander, and I proved it earlier, and you are also Russophobic!
                        Quote: tatra
                        Enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people

                        it's a story ... and bloody ...
                      9. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 14: 15
                        0
                        ... I'll chew you - having forcibly seized power and the Bolsheviks and Bandera unleashed civil wars! And based on your logic, it is not the rapist who is to blame, but the victim, especially if she resists ... a strange position for a woman ... however, a supporter of communism does not have logic
                        Is the Provisional Government a "victim"? Or Yanukovych, who really got everyone on Ukraine by squeezing out the business in his favor? You would be more careful with labels. There were no innocent victims
                      10. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 16: 05
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        Is the Provisional Government a "victim"?

                        The EaP has fulfilled its task - it has prepared the elections to the US! So the victim is the peoples of Russia, who were decided by their choice, realized during the elections.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Or Yanukovych, who really got everyone on Ukraine by squeezing out the business in his favor

                        No, the legally elected government! After the coup, did they live better than the people there?
                        Quote: clerk
                        You would be more careful with labels.

                        I don’t need your advice ... wink
                      11. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 16: 20
                        0
                        ... Is the Provisional Government a "victim"?
                        /////
                        The EaP has fulfilled its task - it has prepared the elections to the US! So the victim is the peoples of Russia, who were decided by their choice, realized during the elections.
                        What kind of "elections" are there in the CA? So the Council of People's Commissars was actually formed according to the results of these "elections" - from the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Bolsheviks. And the peoples of Russia confirmed their choice with a victory in the Civil War. No matter how much you try to prove otherwise.
                        ... Or Yanukovych, who really got everyone on Ukraine by squeezing out the business in his favor.
                        ////// :::
                        No, the legally elected government! After the coup, did they live better than the people there?
                        Don't jump off the topic - is Yanukovych your victim or not? And what is the "legally elected government" in October 1917?
                      12. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 16: 24
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        as the Council of People's Commissars and was formed by the results of these "elections

                        eka you are illiterate in the history of Russia then ... request Enlighten ...
                        "The first Council of People's Commissars in history was established by decree of the 2nd All-Russian Congress of Soviets and the All-Russian Central Executive Committee on October 27, 1917 [2] as a collegium of chairmen of commissions, who were entrusted with "managing certain branches of state life."
                        Quote: clerk
                        And the peoples of Russia confirmed their choice with a victory in the Civil War.

                        what nonsense! fool In the GW, the bloodiest and most unprincipled win ... hi
                      13. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 16: 35
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        Yanukovych is your victim or not?

                        of course - he was legally elected as the people's parliament of Ukraine!
                        Quote: clerk
                        Don't jump off topic

                        this is your path - you even rewrite messages!
                        Quote: clerk
                        And what is the "legally elected government" in October 1917?

                        EaP - elected by the legitimate Duma for the conduct of elections to the CA!
                      14. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 17: 25
                        0
                        ... ak Sovnarkom and was formed by the results of these "elections //////
                        eka you are illiterate in the history of Russia then ... request Enlighten ...
                        "The first Council of People's Commissars in history was formed by a decree of the 2nd All-Russian Congress of Soviets and the All-Russian Central Executive Committee on October 27, 1917 [2]
                        It is not for you to argue about illiteracy in history - you are illiterate even in understanding what has been written - unable to understand the difference between "formed" (from the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries who won the elections to the US) and "educated" (by decision of the body).
                        ... And the peoples of Russia confirmed their choice with a victory in the Civil War.
                        ////// ::
                        what nonsense! fool The bloodiest and most unprincipled win in the GW .... hi
                        stupid liberoid myth. In GV, those for whom the majority of the people win.
                        Quote: clerk
                        Is Yanukovych your victim or not? //////
                        of course - he was legally elected as the people's parliament of Ukraine!
                        What is Ukraine?
                        .Do not jump off topic
                        //////
                        this is your path - you even rewrite messages!
                        As I say, you have problems understanding what has been written.
                        ... And what is the "legally elected government" in October 1917? /////
                        EaP - elected by the legitimate Duma for the conduct of elections to the CA!
                        Enchanting ignorance. You are not even aware that the activities of the State Duma were suspended by the tsar even before the abdication, and the Interim Government was formed by a handful of Duma deputies who were not authorized by anyone (the so-called Provisional Committee). Accordingly, the VP was an illegal authority. Learn materiel! (FROM)
                      15. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 17: 35
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        unable to understand the difference between "formed" (of the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries who won the elections to the US

                        you are ridiculous in your stupidity! bully Chew - you are confusing the US and the Congress of Soviets! bully
                        Quote: clerk
                        It's not for you to talk about illiteracy in history

                        your clownery is amusing for its stupidity - so you have to be able to whip yourself ... bully
                        I'll chew for you - "The All-Russian Constituent Assembly is a representative body in Russia, elected in November 1917 and convened in January 1918 to determine the state structure of Russia. " hi
                        Quote: clerk
                        In the Civil War, those for whom the majority of the people win.

                        nonsense! it was the Reds who made terror a state policy, and also elevated lies to the rank of state policy! Denikin or Kolchak were military officers - they could not lie openly, but Trotsky or Lenin - easily!
                        Quote: clerk
                        What is Ukraine?

                        I agree that a temporary geopolitical formation, however, has all the attributes of a state - more precisely, it had before the overthrow of Yanukovych ...
                      16. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 18: 01
                        0
                        ... unable to understand the difference between "formed" (of the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries who won the elections to the US
                        /////:
                        you are ridiculous in your stupidity! bulls Chew - you are confusing the US and the Congress of Soviets! bulls
                        This difference only exists in your pink pony imagination. In fact, there were two self-proclaimed bodies that declared different goals, but equally illegal. One of them was formed from representatives of the parties that won the elections in the other. Which did not add legitimacy to it, but gave it legitimacy. Is it clear now?
                        . In GV, those for whom the majority of the people win.
                        / / /
                        nonsense! it was the Reds who made terror a state policy, and also elevated lies to the rank of state policy! Denikin or Kolchak were military officers - they could not lie openly, but Trotsky or Lenin - easily!
                        This is all idle chatter. Neither Kolchak nor Denikin were the organizers of the White movement (Kolchak is generally a paid English puppet, acting on the orders of the Entente) And those who organized the White movement were both liars and perjurers who betrayed their emperor. And in any GW, those for whom the majority of the people win.
                        .
                        What is Ukraine?
                        ////////
                        I agree that a temporary geopolitical formation, however, has all the attributes of a state - more precisely, it had before the overthrow of Yanukovych ...
                        Then it is strange to talk about the legitimacy of Yanukovych's power and the illegality of the putschists and subsequent ones. An analogy with the Russia of 1917 suggests itself.
                      17. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 10 March 2021 18: 29
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        on the fact, there were two self-proclaimed bodies that declared different goals, but equally illegal.

                        what nonsense! The US was chosen by the peoples of Russia and is legitimate!
                        Quote: clerk
                        One of them was formed from representatives of the parties that won the elections in another.

                        you are ridiculous - elections to the Council of People's Commissars took place after the formation of the Council of People's Commissars! bully

                        Quote: clerk
                        Kolchak is generally paid english ordered puppet Entente)

                        what nonsense! even in your notation bully The Entente is an ally in World War ...
                        Quote: clerk
                        And those who organized the White movement were both liars and perjurers who betrayed their emperor.

                        and I hear this from an admirer of a paid German intelligence agent brought in a sealed carriage!
                        Quote: clerk
                        And in any GV, those for whom the majority of the people win.

                        nonsense!
                        Quote: clerk
                        Then it is strange to talk about the legitimacy of Yanukovych's power and the illegality of the putschists and subsequent ones. An analogy with the Russia of 1917 suggests itself.

                        no, there was the collapse of the USSR and the formation of the republics of states! The process is not pleasant, but legitimate ...
                      18. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 18: 48
                        0
                        ... on the fact, there were two self-proclaimed bodies that declared different goals, but equally illegal.
                        ///////:
                        what nonsense! The US was chosen by the peoples of Russia and is legitimate!
                        But it's illegal.
                        ... One of them was formed from representatives of the parties that won the elections in another.
                        /////////:
                        you are ridiculous - the elections to the Council of People's Commissars took place after the formation of the Council of People's Commissars! bully
                        This somehow prevented the introduction of the Socialist-Revolutionaries into the Council of People's Commissars?
                        ... Kolchak is generally a paid English puppet, acting on the orders of the Entente)
                        ///////
                        what nonsense! even in your bully notation, the Entente is an ally in World War ....
                        In your opinion, the alliance of the Entente and Russia in WWI gave the Entente the right to interfere in the internal affairs of Russia?
                        ... And those who organized the White movement were both liars and perjurers who betrayed their emperor.
                        and I hear this from an admirer of a paid German intelligence agent brought in a sealed carriage!
                        Do you want to object to the organizers of the White movement? laughing
                        ... Then it is strange to talk about the legitimacy of Yanukovych's power and the illegality of the putschists and subsequent ones. An analogy with Russia in 1917 suggests itself. //////
                        no, there was the collapse of the USSR and the formation of the republics of states! The process is not pleasant, but legitimate ...
                        Just like the formation of the Council of People's Commissars. And then the clarification began - who has more legitimacy. It turned out that the Bolsheviks.
                      19. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 6 March 2021 08: 56
                        -1
                        Quote: tatra
                        War in Ukraine unleashed by the enemies of those who captured power. And not the government itself maydanut. Power can NOT unleash a Civil War In your country.

                        in Ukraine, opponents of the new government unleashed a war against her .

                        It was not the Nazis who attacked the Donbass, but the Donbass, it turns out .... unleashed a war against the power of the Nazis .. fool

                        in how: you, the "Enemy of the Communists", is also a fan of the Donbass Ukrainian Nazis-killers. Ch.t.d.

                        Shame .... negative

                        All that plus this, what's wrong with you?
            2. lucul
              lucul 5 March 2021 12: 17
              -7
              You, the "people" - the enemies of the Bolshevik Communists, have proved that you are not capable and not worthy of owning the country.

              What nonsense - history has put everything in its place. The USSR existed for only 70 years and collapsed - because no one wanted to preserve and protect it.
              Argue with obvious facts? Then I can congratulate you - you have rabid fanaticism.
              1. tatra
                tatra 5 March 2021 12: 21
                +2
                How tired of the cowardly ravings of the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people. If you seized the USSR for good purposes, then you would not need to slander those from whom you took the country away, you would not have to blame those responsible for the seizure of the country by you, these nonsense would not be needed, given that the countries can fall apart by themselves.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 5 March 2021 12: 30
                  -5
                  How tired of the cowardly ravings of the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people. If you seized the USSR for good purposes, then you would not need to slander those from whom you took the country away, you would not have to blame those responsible for the seizure of the country by you, these nonsense would not be needed, given that the countries can fall apart by themselves.

                  I repeat - you have rabid fanaticism. Do you even understand what you just wrote yourself? )))))
                  1. tatra
                    tatra 5 March 2021 12: 36
                    0
                    Learn, enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people to conduct discussions, learn to defend yourself, and not only to be angry against. If you cannot refute what I am writing about YOU, go by. Yes, for the anomaly of humanity - the enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR - to be a patriot of your country and people is probably "fanaticism."
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 5 March 2021 12: 51
                      -4
                      Learn, enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people to conduct discussions, learn to defend yourself, and not only to be angry against. If you cannot refute what I am writing about YOU, go by. Yes, for the anomaly of humanity - the enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR - to be a patriot of your country and people is probably "fanaticism."

                      Pad table)))
                      You never answered me - why did you and no one from your entourage come out to defend the USSR in 1991? )))
                  2. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 41
                    -2
                    Quote: lucul
                    Do you even understand what you just wrote yourself? )))))

                    it looks like this is already a question for psychiatrists, not members of the forum ... request
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 5 March 2021 22: 07
                0
                Unfortunately, the question now is - how stable is the education of the Russian Federation of the current model?
          5. Serg65
            Serg65 5 March 2021 13: 50
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            in fact

            Well, in fact, the Bolsheviks managed to seize and retain power ... with a kind word and a pistol! The rest is just an alternative ...
        3. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 5 March 2021 09: 14
          0
          By the way, not even they called to Tsarist Russia, but to the "ideals of February". So there are no bad ones, you noticed it right.
        4. Snusmumrik
          Snusmumrik 5 March 2021 09: 51
          +6
          Russia by the time of the Bolshevik uprising was no longer tsarist, when will it be remembered.
          1. Obliterator
            Obliterator 5 March 2021 22: 06
            -3
            Quote: Snusmumrik
            Russia by the time of the Bolshevik uprising was no longer tsarist, when will it be remembered.

            And why should the witnesses of the sect of the Dzerzhinsky monument remember this? For them, the history of Russia before October 1917 does not exist in principle. And if it does, it’s still not worth studying.
        5. DrEng527
          DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 37
          -6
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Peace to the people, factories to workers, land to peasants

          instead of peace, there was a GW with more victims than in WW1 .... the Bolsheviks took away the land when they got stronger, along with cattle and tools, driving the peasants into slavery of collective farms ... the factories did not belong to the workers, they could not even go on strike, as under the tsar ... request
        6. Serg65
          Serg65 5 March 2021 13: 21
          -2
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Peace to the people, factories to workers, land to peasants

          And how, gave?
        7. RUSS
          RUSS 5 March 2021 17: 52
          -4
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          The people believed

          And in the end, the people were deceived again
        8. Sneaky Urus
          Sneaky Urus 6 March 2021 19: 11
          0
          Do not carry the propaganda nonsense of the times of the USSR. The year is 2021, and you will revive all the dense mantras.
      2. antivirus
        antivirus 5 March 2021 08: 52
        +3
        So the question about the monument to Dzerzhinsky came up again - who saved Russia?
      3. DrEng527
        DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 35
        -3
        Quote: Stroporez
        The only force that could save the empire was the BOLSHEVIKS!

        nonsense ... Russia emerged from the chaos of the 1990s, just as from the chaos of the 1600s ... nothing prevented us from overcoming the chaos of the 1920s, especially since people still remembered the times of RI ... hi
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 5 March 2021 09: 57
      -11
      Quote: Stroporez
      The only force that could save the empire was the BOLSHEVIKS!


      Did the Bolsheviks save something? The Bolsheviks only destroyed.
      -Lenin planted a bomb under the very existence of Russia, this is when the creation of the USSR was proclaimed, when the natal outskirts fostered by tsarism and Bolshevism could scatter in different directions, and it turned out as Lenin wanted and his western customers, Russia, destroyed.
      - Completely destroyed the order of relations between city and country, destroying the markets.
      - They destroyed, as they say now, the spiritual bonds, destroying the churches and shooting the priests.
      -The song said: "... churches and prisons will be razed to the ground," but in fact, only churches were destroyed, and then not all. Orthodox churches were destroyed, those that still carried some forms and essence to Christian rituals, but did not touch the Catholic churches and I have not heard that synagogues would be destroyed. the Bolsheviks / Jews did not touch the synagogues.
      - the nobility was destroyed. The best people, inventors and scientists who glorified the world, were either destroyed or they had to flee abroad, and this was.
      -Yurkevich-who invented new lines of ships (Yurkevich's bulb)
      -Zvorykin-who invented television
      -Sikorsky - the invention of the helicopter.
      -Ipatiev is the father of the American chemical industry.
      -Ponyatovsky - the invention of the video recorder.
      - The merchant class, which was essentially Old Believer, was destroyed.
      - The Cossack estate was destroyed. Under the Bolsheviks, not a single Cossack army remained. The Bolsheviks fiercely hated the Cossacks, like many in this forum. Moreover, I insist that the Cossacks were not an estate, but historically a SEPARATE people, as the Ukrainians and Belarusians have now become.
      -The "reform of the Russian language" of the Jew Lunacharsky was carried out, when part of the Russian alphabet was simply thrown away. This was done so that Russian people could not read old texts, where many things were written differently from how Soviet history textbooks interpret us.
      -Collectivization was the FINAL destruction of the Russian community. So it turned out that the Bolshevik collective farms were completely ineffective agricultural enterprises led by illiterate party officials who dictated to the peasants what to sow and when to harvest. The Ruskoe village fell into decay from such actions.

      The merit of the Bolshevik Soviet power can be attributed to the massive
      - elimination of illiteracy, i.e. people learned to read and write. But does this mean "the elimination of illiteracy"? Of course not. People who read from the pit of complete illiteracy fell into the trap of Bolshevik propaganda, where lies were piled up on lies. In RI, students were taught Old Greek, Latin, Church Slavonic languages, so old books were available to these people. The Bolsheviks abolished the teaching of old languages, thereby interrupting communication. People began to learn from the false Bolshevik textbooks when the Bolsheviks ruled Marx himself.
      -Industrialization was carried out unclear on what funds. During industrialization, according to the estimates of the economist Katasonov, 8.5 thousand enterprises were built. Almost ALL enterprises were equipped with imported equipment, but the USSR at that time 30-40 years already had almost no gold reserves. And the bourgeois demanded to pay , only in hard currency, gold and timber, grain. Over the years of industrialization, according to the calculations of the same Katasonov, 1.5 tons were spent on each enterprise, a total of 12.7 THOUSAND tons of gold in equivalent. Where the Bolshevik government took so much money is UNKNOWN.
      If we imagine that the same Germany was rebuilt at the expense of American loans, then a parallel arises that Western creditors PREPARED Russia and Germany for the world massacre, and all this was done with the knowledge of the Bolshevik elite.
      1. awdrgy
        awdrgy 5 March 2021 11: 47
        +2
        In many ways I agree with you, although we probably came to some conclusions in different ways (given your approach from the "other" side of the story))) They wanted to ruin and destroy everything and wanted to use us in this case (I would leave a separate question on the motivation of various groups of performers for now open) And although, in general, they succeeded in most of the planned directions, but there were also some mistakes (not critical, unfortunately) disagreements "flaws" and "excesses" due to which we still exist. But for how long?
      2. mat-vey
        mat-vey 8 March 2021 05: 16
        0
        Quote: Bar1
        -Sikorsky - the invention of the helicopter.

        poor, poor Yuryev ...
        Quote: Bar1
        If we imagine that the same Germany was rebuilt at the expense of American loans, then a parallel arises

        What kind of loans to France RI can you say?
        Quote: Bar1
        -Collectivization was the FINAL destruction of the Russian community.

        Greetings from Stolypin ..
        And what kind of "father" of Dolivo-Dobrovolsky's electrical engineering are you? Did the Bolsheviks send him to Germany?
        Quote: Bar1
        -Ponyatovsky - the invention of the video recorder.

        K. L. Isupov ...
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 8 March 2021 09: 01
          +1
          Quote: mat-vey
          poor, poor Yuryev ...


          I am not against B.N. Yuryev, who invented the swashplate, but it was Sikorsky who set up the production of the world's first helicopters that would have practical application. If the Bolsheviks treated Sikorsky more carefully, and did not threaten him with arrest, then we had priority for the invention of helicopter parts and the production of real helicopters.

          Quote: mat-vey
          What kind of loans to France RI can you say?


          therefore, there is a book by Professor Pyzhikov "Fight for Russia", where it intelligently describes what Petersburg capital and Moscow capital are. Petersburg businessmen are mainly foreign capitalists, who were allowed by the tsarist authorities to run in Russia, and they collected loans abroad and abroad. These alien interests Russian soldiers fought on the western front. This is another crime of tsarism.

          Quote: mat-vey
          And what kind of "father" of Dolivo-Dobrovolsky's electrical engineering are you? Did the Bolsheviks send him to Germany?


          if you read me more attentively you would see that I am carrying out the continuity of the power of tsarism and bolshevism.
          In RI, many Russian inventors could not work: Lodygin, the inventor of the incandescent lamp, Lutskoi, the creator of the first internal combustion engines, the creator of the Daimler-Benz company. This suggests one thing that the development of technology in RI was not needed, the same attitude towards its best people was demonstrated by the Bolsheviks.


          Quote: mat-vey
          K. L. Isupov ...


          and what about Isupov?
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 8 March 2021 09: 09
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            If the Bolsheviks treated Sikorsky more attentively, and did not threaten him with arrest, then we had priority on the invention of helicopter parts and the production of real helicopters.

            And the Bolsheviks, like the Germans, had "real" helicopters .. only no one saw any sense in them before the war ..
            Quote: Bar1
            In RI, many Russian inventors could not work

            If the USSR had behaved the same way, it would not have been able to carry out industrialization, so it would have made all the more sense to talk about the post-war period ..
            Quote: Bar1
            and what about Isupov?

            Yes, just back in the 30s he invented the mechanism of all modern video tape recorders, Ponyatkovsky's system turned out to be not viable in the future ..
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 8 March 2021 09: 15
              +1
              Quote: mat-vey
              And the Bolsheviks, like the Germans, had "real" helicopters .. only no one saw any sense in them before the war ..


              if they were actually real, then the meaning would be.

              Quote: mat-vey
              If the USSR had behaved the same way, it would not have been able to carry out industrialization, so it would have made all the more sense to talk about the post-war period ..


              how, same?

              Quote: mat-vey
              Yes, just back in the 30s he invented the mechanism of all modern video tape recorders, Ponyatkovsky's system turned out to be not viable in the future ..


              If only if only, he may have invented the mechanism, but not the video recorder.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 8 March 2021 09: 18
                0
                Quote: Bar1
                He may have invented the mechanism, but not the video recorder.

                In 1944, most countries, unlike America, did not have conditions suitable for "inventions" ...
                Quote: Bar1
                how, same?

                Like RI ...
                Kurchatov made an A-bomb in the USSR, not in the USA ..
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 8 March 2021 09: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  In 1944, most countries, unlike America, did not have conditions suitable for "inventions" ...


                  how is it, there were no conditions, but all the best inventors were?

                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Like RI ...
                  Kurchatov made an A-bomb in the USSR, not in the USA ..


                  Sakharov, as a Jew, really wanted to go to the United States, but he was not allowed, from which he fell into childhood.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 8 March 2021 09: 27
                    0
                    Quote: Bar1
                    how is it, there were no conditions, but all the best inventors were?

                    What are you talking about now? In World War II, the USA was the only industrially developed country without territorial losses and bombing - you are aware of this ...
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Sakharov, as a Jew, really wanted to go to the United States, but he was not allowed, from which he fell into childhood.

                    But after the "puff" ..
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 8 March 2021 09: 35
                      +1
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      What are you talking about now? In World War II, the USA was the only industrially developed country without territorial losses and bombing - you are aware of this ...


                      you yourself say that in a broken country Kurchatov invented the atomic bomb.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 8 March 2021 09: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Bar1
                        you yourself say that in a broken country Kurchatov invented the atomic bomb.

                        Therefore, there are no funds and people left for vidics and toasters ..
    3. BAI
      BAI 5 March 2021 11: 21
      +3
      The Tambov wolf is your friend ...
      Quite a normal comrade. Not worse than others.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 March 2021 19: 11
        -2
        We didn’t try it, we don’t know!
    4. DrEng527
      DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 33
      -6
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      but in essence this bloody conflict with the authorities brought nothing but trouble to the people of Tambov region,

      this is how the Bolshevik government unleashed him - read what caused the anger of the peasants request
    5. Basil50
      Basil50 5 March 2021 14: 18
      0
      leche
      Do not repeat the nonsense after the author. Antonov, due to the intrigues of fellow party members, was appointed chief of the police and from the first days began to put together bands and arm these bands.
      Remember the 90s of the last century when suddenly * out of nowhere * gangs with weapons and obligatory * roof * from * cops * appeared, and ethnic gangs received * roof * from the KGB. And that, the surplus was to blame ......................................
  2. apro
    apro 5 March 2021 04: 21
    0
    Russian civilization cannot withstand a new catastrophe

    But it is not the Russian communist government that is suspending this process ...
  3. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 04: 36
    -1
    They even used chemical weapons.
    According to various estimates, from several thousand to several dozen people died from it, which already speaks of the low reliability of large numbers, plus an analysis of the actual effectiveness shows the weak effect of the then chemical weapons on manpower in a snow-covered forest during shelling with stale chemical shells.
    At the same time, Tukhachevsky acted with the most cruel methods (in the style of Trotsky): terror, taking hostages, destroying entire settlements, creating concentration camps and mass executions.
    Both, of course, are still "guardians of the Russian people", but these "horrors" were more declared than actually used!
    1. apro
      apro 5 March 2021 04: 50
      +1
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Both of course are still "guardians of the Russian people",

      They are not Russians, and besides, awful ... communists ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 04: 57
        +2
        Quote: apro
        ... and besides ... oh horror ... the communists ...

        Trotsky and Tukhachevsky? You will call them their faithful Stalinists. Are there any objections to chemical weapons and "terror"?
        1. apro
          apro 5 March 2021 05: 05
          +1
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Trotsky and Tukhachevsky?

          Yes, they were communists. What is wrong ??
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          You will call them their faithful Stalinists.

          At the time of the events described, they acted in one bundle and under a single leadership.
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Are there any objections to chemical weapons and "terror"?

          What objections. The state is obliged to apply repression in response to disobedience and the threat of its own existence.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 05: 12
            +4
            Quote: apro
            Trotsky and Tukhachevsky?
            Yes, they were communists. What is wrong ??
            EBN Gorby and, about the horror of VVP, were also "communists", something like that.

            Quote: apro
            Are there any objections to chemical weapons and "terror"?
            What objections. The state is obliged to apply repression in response to disobedience and the threat of its own existence.
            I agree one hundred percent, but in this particular case, not in yours, the "horrors" are blatantly exaggerated.
            1. apro
              apro 5 March 2021 05: 19
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              EBN Gorby and, about the horror of VVP, were also "communists", something like that.

              And all these characters fought and fought against communism ... not horror, but the conscious position of the enemies of communism.
              1. 1331M
                1331M 5 March 2021 05: 36
                +19
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Are there any objections to chemical weapons?

                There are objections. Let's start in order. Tukhachevsky in this whole story was nothing more than a military executor. Measures to ensure combat operations were listed at a meeting led by Antonov-Ovseenko. A copy of the minutes of this meeting, from which it is clear that Tukhachevsky acted strictly in Artillery inspector Kasinov was one of the organizers of the combat use of gases. Most of the OV was exhibited from the fired artillery shells. They did not dare to use the gas cylinder launch in full, so that the launchers themselves would not suffer. In total, there were three cases of combat use of shells with chloropicrin. At the beginning of the operation, on August 2, 1921, the red artillery fired 59 chemical shells at Sukhiye Dubki Island, where, according to the information available to the Soviet command, the rebel leader Antonov was hiding. After that, the Soviet units combed the island. The only thing they managed to find there were three tied to horses for trees. Did the Antonovites manage toto get out of the shelling, or they were not on the island at all, but the rebels did not suffer any losses from this bombardment. The only trophies of the Reds were these horses, by the way, which safely survived the "gas attack." This is not surprising: in order to create poisonous cloud of the required concentration, 59 chemical projectiles were not enough.
                There were two more cases of the use of chemical shells by the Reds in the fight against the Tambov rebels.
                The first episode took place on the night of July 12-13, 1921 in the battle near the village of Smolnaya Vershina. Parts of the Red Army fired 15 chemical shells at the enemy. The reason for firing chemical shells, most likely, was the curiosity of the red gunners: they wanted to see how effective the new ammunition. The result of this shooting was zero - in order to create a deadly cloud, it was necessary to fire dozens of times more shells.
                A similar situation was in the second case. On July 14, 1921, a horse battery fired at the forest south of Lake Ilmen. 50 chemical shells were fired into the forest. operational reports, where information was entered about all at least some significant military operations. At the same time, the effect was achieved. However, it was more moral and psychological than natural. No one died from the OV.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 07: 05
                  +5
                  Quote: 1331M
                  Are there any objections to chemical weapons?
                  In my first comment, I wrote this:
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  According to various estimates, from several thousand to several dozen people died from him, which already speaks of the low reliability of large numbers.
                  So your comment only confirms my opinion, thanks!

                  Quote: 1331M
                  Nobody died from OV.
                  Akhedzhakova and Olgovich won't believe you! laughing
                  1. 1331M
                    1331M 5 March 2021 07: 55
                    +14
                    He cited dry facts, just in the minds of many people, at the mention of those events, almost pictures of the use of OV by the Americans in Vietnam stand up, as if airplanes are flying and leaving behind lifeless villages and scorched earth. All documents are in the public domain and everyone can, if desired, with them familiarize...
                    1. 1331M
                      1331M 5 March 2021 08: 05
                      +13
                      Yes, I almost forgot (old age is not a joy) - I consider the very fact of such limited use against my (albeit rebellious) people inside my country to be criminal and immoral. a psychological factor, when during these operations cordons were set up, leaflets were distributed. People were not hounded like the Germans did our soldiers in Osovets or the British in the Belgian Ypres.
                    2. Bar1
                      Bar1 5 March 2021 10: 13
                      -1
                      Quote: 1331M
                      All documents are in the public domain and everyone can, if desired, familiarize themselves with them ...


                      Well, can you bring these documents to our collection?
                    3. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 49
                      +1
                      Quote: 1331M
                      Brought dry facts

                      from which it follows that the Bolsheviks used OV! And what was not used effectively was due to their general mediocrity! request
            2. ammunition
              ammunition 5 March 2021 08: 16
              +5
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              EBN Gorby and, about the horror of VVP, were also "communists", something like that.

              Chubais A.B. joined the party at the age of 23. E.T. Gaidar joined the party at the age of 24. YES. Medvedev joined the party as a student (no date on Wiki) .. at a young age.
              In total, all anti-communists and liberals joined the party (communists) at an age when such a thought could not arise in our minds.
              1. Malyuta
                Malyuta 5 March 2021 08: 39
                +11
                Quote: ammunition
                Chubais A.B. joined the party at the age of 23. E.T. Gaidar joined the party at the age of 24. YES. Medvedev joined the party as a student (no date on Wiki) .. at a young age.

                One gets the impression that someone deliberately pushed these bastards into the party.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 5 March 2021 08: 26
      +7
      The use of chemical weapons was episodic with a zero result, since for its effective use a large number of shells or cylinders are required during a gas-cylinder attack and the right wind. There was material on this topic on the net. In the early 20s, chemical shells were also occasionally used in Chechnya, where losses from them were significantly higher - a ram and several sheep.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 5 March 2021 08: 44
        +6
        Quote: Aviator_
        In the early 20s, chemical shells were also occasionally used in Chechnya, where losses from them were significantly higher - a ram and several sheep.
        There were direct hits! Probably... laughing
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 5 March 2021 08: 46
          +6
          Yes, they just did not drive the flock to the pasture, so they were in the corral and suffered. And the Chechens themselves fled.
      2. Bar1
        Bar1 5 March 2021 10: 18
        -3
        Quote: Aviator_
        The use of chemical weapons was sporadic with zero results, since


        How do you know that you were hit by chemical shells?
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 5 March 2021 17: 51
          +3
          There is such a work by Alexander Bobkov in the magazine "History of the Soviet period 1917-1991" for 2011. Here is the link, open the Internet Explorer, since 2019 the main browsers do not support this format. https://scepsis.net/library/id_3235.html
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 5 March 2021 19: 29
            0
            you and this author, some strange people. He wrote about ONE episode, and you took it into his logic.
            This is ONE episode of the war, do you understand it or not?
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 5 March 2021 19: 55
              +3
              Did I say somewhere that Tukhachevsky fumigated the Tambov province with gases for several months? One episode was, more precisely, an attempt to use it.
      3. DrEng527
        DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 50
        -6
        Quote: Aviator_
        also occasionally used in Chechnya

        you, for nothing, are not from white helmets? Can you prove your lie?
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 5 March 2021 17: 52
          +3
          Don't be rude, sick. Here's a link for you. Https://scepsis.net/library/id_3235.html
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 6 March 2021 12: 58
            -2
            Quote: Aviator_
            Don't be rude, sick.

            Look at yourself - badly brought up and deceitful ... request
            Quote: Aviator_
            Here is a link for you.

            Well, where is there about Chechnya?
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 6 March 2021 17: 49
              +2
              The link about the pacification of the Caucasus is in my work computer, do not fuss, you will receive it after the holidays.
    3. tatra
      tatra 5 March 2021 09: 56
      +1
      Yes, not a single person died from the gases. The concentration of the gases was such that they could not even kill a cat. This is another anti-Soviet myth.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 5 March 2021 10: 30
        -7
        Quote: tatra
        Yes, not a single person died from the gases. The concentration of the gases was such that they could not even kill a cat. This is another anti-Soviet myth.


        You don't need to count people as idiots here. Have you ever got under military action when bullets whistle over your head and shells explode?
        Even ONE shell, that explosive, that chemical can cause defeat of the enemy, and the Bolsheviks used, judging by the order of Tukhachevsky, MASSOVO shells.
        1. tatra
          tatra 5 March 2021 10: 46
          +2
          Yes, the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people have long exposed this one more of your heap of anti-Soviet myths. There was only one proven fact - the shooting of gas shells through the forest, and then only three live horses were found in the forest, and no bandits of yours.
          If people take over their country for good purposes, they, unlike you, do not need to slander those whom they took away the country.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 5 March 2021 11: 00
            -4
            Quote: tatra
            Yes, the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people have long exposed this one more of your heap of anti-Soviet myths. There was only one proven fact - the shooting of gas shells through the forest, and then only three live horses were found in the forest, and no bandits of yours.
            If people take over their country for good purposes, they, unlike you, do not need to slander those whom they took away the country.


            those who brought the Russian people to the uprising, of course, would not have disdained the complete destruction of this rebellious people. And your statements, as an apologist for Bolshevism, are dubious.



            there were orders, so there were orders.
            1. tatra
              tatra 5 March 2021 11: 06
              +3
              WHO are you who call yourself "the Russian people"? Specifically. And it is very difficult to communicate with the enemies of the communists, also because you are all "chameleons", opportunists. So, you simultaneously dump on the Bolsheviks the responsibility for unleashing the Civil War, and at the same time, you justify and praise those who unleashed the Civil War against the Bolsheviks with the aim of capturing Russia.
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 5 March 2021 11: 22
                -2
                Quote: tatra
                WHO are you who call yourself "the Russian people


                I am a Russian person, my name is Pavel Ordynsky. High technical education. I am 57 years old.
                I changed my attitude to Soviet power several times, but not under the influence of opportunistic considerations or fashion, but under the influence of facts. This can be traced, first of all, in relation to Stalin.
                During the Soviet era, we were told at the school and institute at the lectures of Scientific Communism that Stalin was a tyrant and there were EXTRACTIONS. Later it turned out that these were mass repressions.
                Later, through the efforts of more historian Yuri Mukhin, Tov Stalin began to acquire positive and positive tones. He was "the great builder of a new country, who picked up a country with a plow and left with an atomic bomb", and the winner in the great war. Queues with flowers were drawn to Stalin's grave.
                Recently, new facts about Comrade Stalin have been revealed again. At the 10th Congress, Stalin spoke in favor of UKRAINIZATION of the Russian people, the destruction of Corps Commander Dumenko, but this is no longer forgivable.
                The USSR was a society of mass deficit, the government lied to the people (Brezhnev's) that it was building communism, the government recognized the American lunar scam by deceiving its people. The power of the Bolsheviks is the power of reincarnations and werewolves, how could it happen that such bastards as
                Gorbachev and Yeltsin? This happened only if this Bolshevik government itself had never been popular.
                1. tatra
                  tatra 5 March 2021 11: 35
                  +3
                  Ha, that's the classic cosmopolitan, selfish mentality of the anti-Soviet people. All of them together for 103 years of the Soviet and their post-Soviet periods have been malignant against the Soviet people, and none of them is capable of defending their anti-Soviet people. Immediately "and here I am, me, with me, and I did not capture the USSR." The Soviet people is the one who created the BEST State both in terms of development and for the majority of the people, except for parasites on the neck of the people, and after the capture of the USSR by you, he proved that he was for the BEST for his country and people. And now write - YOUR anti-Soviet people DID, and WHAT is he for his country and people? And without stupid malice AGAINST the Soviet people.
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 5 March 2021 11: 54
                    -4
                    Quote: tatra
                    Ha, that's the classic cosmopolitan, selfish mentality of the anti-Soviet people. All of them together for 103 years of the Soviet and their post-Soviet periods have been malignant against the Soviet people, and none of them is capable of defending their anti-Soviet people. Immediately "and here I am, me, with me, and I did not capture the USSR." The Soviet people is the one who created the BEST State both in terms of development and for the majority of the people, except for parasites on the neck of the people, and after the capture of the USSR by you, he proved that he was for the BEST for his country and people. And now write - YOUR anti-Soviet people DID, and WHAT is he for his country and people? And without stupid malice AGAINST the Soviet people.


                    Here is an example, where from the first to the last word everything is a lie.
                    You are like a mechanical primitive dog that can only bark, without any human features.
                    1. tatra
                      tatra 5 March 2021 11: 58
                      +2
                      Ha, that’s what was required to prove — you don’t have anything good about your anti-Soviet people who seriously imagined that you are worthy of owning the country.
                      1. Bar1
                        Bar1 5 March 2021 12: 05
                        -1
                        Quote: tatra
                        Ha, that’s what was required to prove — you don’t have anything good about your anti-Soviet people who seriously imagined that you are worthy of owning the country.

                        You are like a poor student in a lesson that you haven’t learned, and you are chattering your slogans under your breath and don’t want to know or see anything else.
                      2. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 12: 10
                        0
                        Ha, the cowardly twisting has begun. The enemies of the communists are not capable of even elementary discussions.
                      3. alekseykabanets
                        alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 14: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: Bar1
                        You are like a poor student in a lesson that you haven’t learned, and you are chattering your slogans under your breath and don’t want to know or see anything else.

                        So, what about the picture?
                        Quote: tatra
                        And now write - YOUR anti-Soviet people DID, and WHAT is he for his country and people? And without stupid malice AGAINST the Soviet people.

                        Nothing to answer? Have to get out?
                      4. awdrgy
                        awdrgy 5 March 2021 12: 19
                        -3
                        I apologize for interfering in the dialogue, but apparently your and my worldview are supported by so different arguments, research and life experience that I do not even understand what you mean defending your position Moreover, I suppose that I do not quite understand your position itself (at least it looks very blurry)
                      5. tatra
                        tatra 5 March 2021 12: 26
                        +3
                        Exactly, I DEFEND the Soviet power, and all my "opponents" are capable only of malice AGAINST the Soviet power. The enemies of Soviet power have NOTHING and ANYTHING better neither in the situation before the October Revolution, nor in the situation of the Civil War, nor after the capture of the USSR, for their country and people there is nothing. And this is the monstrous tragedy of the country and the people on the territory of the USSR.
                      6. awdrgy
                        awdrgy 5 March 2021 13: 01
                        -4
                        So there is no Soviet power .. So the Kronstadt revolt and Antonovsky took place under strange slogans - "for Soviets without communists" and Andropov is generally credited with the phrase - "you are certainly a communist but not a Bolshevik." For the Russian and other peoples who are building an independent and strong state with him, someone was a pest, someone was a benefactor Here you need to deal specifically And you get to defend the Soviet power as a whole with all its advantages and disadvantages This is incomprehensible One cannot but rejoice in Gagarin's flight into space But dispossession and hunger are irreplaceable losses in the population And behind each of these events there are specific people with their own interests and goals. And what kind of "-isms" they hide behind a purely technical question
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                  2. Richard
                    Richard 5 March 2021 12: 47
                    -2
                    and after the capture of the USSR by you


                    What Pavel was not accused of, but you, Comrade Tatra, surpassed everyone, accusing him of the collapse and seizure of the USSR belay laughing
                    By analogy, one immediately recalls the prominent Soviet state and party leader Nikolai Vasilyevich Krylenko, an inveterate tourist and climber. When in the 38th he was arrested all the charges during the investigation, he competently refuted, after all, the former People's Commissariat of Justice and the chairman of the Supreme Court of the USSR.
                    Then, without further ado, at the trial, which lasted only 20 (twenty) minutes, he was accused - ..... of creating a "counter-revolutionary fascist-terrorist organization of climbers and tourists aimed at the collapse and seizure of the USSR" Yes
                    I am ashamed to ask, were you Tatra at that trial?
                    Painfully the accusations are similar Yes
                    1. tatra
                      tatra 5 March 2021 12: 52
                      +2
                      Let me teach you and Pavel the rules of the Russian language. When they write "you", they mean the plural, and when they write "you", they mean the singular.
                      1. Richard
                        Richard 5 March 2021 13: 04
                        -1
                        You'd better teach the rules of the site Yes
                        Your constant "cowardly enemies of the communists" fit exactly under the subparagraph "B" of the paragraph "The site is strictly prohibited" laughing
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 5 March 2021 14: 35
                        0
                        Dmitry, I greet you! It is useless to argue with this unbalanced person. This is already a clinical case.
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 5 March 2021 14: 33
                        0
                        Every time you appear, on any topic, you immediately provoke a squabble. Why? At the same time, you manage not to give any facts, except for your eternal lamentations about * the enemies of the Communists *, to demand facts from your opponents. The question immediately arises, the construction of your person in a group * Top commentators * is it * black humor *?
                        And yet, for some reason you immediately disappeared when I asked you a direct question about the location of pharmacy number one, on Nikolskaya. Did the enemies of the communists interfere with your answer?
                      4. Phil77
                        Phil77 5 March 2021 14: 44
                        0
                        I warned one respected person that your appearance in the heading * History * would ruin any article. But ... he did not believe me. He did not believe me then.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                2. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 54
                  -6
                  Quote: Bar1
                  This happened only if this Bolshevik government itself had never been popular.

                  absolute truth! however, you are not looking at the root - Marxism and communism is the ideology of the Germans for the conquest of world domination! And the Russians for the revolutionary Germans, according to Karl Marx, are a reactionary people! Therefore Bakunin quarreled with Karla ... request
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 5 March 2021 11: 59
                    -4
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    absolute truth! however, you are not looking at the root - Marxism and communism are the ideology of the Germans


                    Germans speak? Did you know that German and Yiddish are languages ​​that coincide with each other by 90%? Then whose ideology was that?
                    1. clerk
                      clerk 10 March 2021 18: 20
                      0
                      ... do you speak of Germans? Did you know that German and Yiddish are languages ​​that coincide with each other by 90%? Then whose ideology was it?
                      The stump is clear - German. After all, this is Yiddish formed on the basis of old German dialects, and not vice versa. laughing
                  2. alekseykabanets
                    alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 14: 31
                    +3
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    absolute truth! however, you are not looking at the root - Marxism and communism is the ideology of the Germans for the conquest of world domination!

                    That is why the Germans killed all the communists at home? You would have read Mein Kampf or something, there Hitler made his position on communism very clear. Sometimes your ignorance goes beyond all boundaries.
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 5 March 2021 14: 40
                      -1
                      Quote: aleksejkabanets
                      Would you read Mein Kampf

                      and why take all sorts of kaku into your mouth?
                      Quote: aleksejkabanets
                      there Hitler made his position on communism very clear.

                      So what? this does not negate the fact that the roots of fascism and Nazism are in socialism! Do you remember the name of Hitler's party?
                      Quote: aleksejkabanets
                      Sometimes your ignorance goes beyond all boundaries.

                      another ball imagines himself a Transfiguration ... wink
                      1. alekseykabanets
                        alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 14: 42
                        +4
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        this does not negate the fact that the roots of fascism and Nazism are in socialism!

                        Justify this nonsense.
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 14: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        That is why the Germans killed all the communists at home?

                        so they interrupted? or did the communists and social democrats of Germany quickly forge into Nazis? and the Italian fascists? can you think, if there is something, why so?
                      3. alekseykabanets
                        alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 14: 45
                        +2
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        or the communists and social democrats of Germany

                        Do you understand the difference between social democrats and communists?
                      4. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 14: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Do you understand the difference between social democrats and communists?

                        you on the Short Course? bully no problem - in the position on the question of determining party membership and the dictatorship of the proletariat hi and so varieties of shit ... wink
                      5. alekseykabanets
                        alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 14: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        no problem - in the position on the question of determining party membership and the dictatorship of the proletariat

                        That is, you absolutely do not understand the subject about which you undertake to judge. Q.E.D.
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        this does not negate the fact that the roots of fascism and Nazism are in socialism!

                        Justify this nonsense.

                        Will you justify the nonsense written by you, or will you just merge?
                      6. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 14: 57
                        -2
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        That is, you absolutely do not understand the subject about which you undertake to judge. Q.E.D.

                        maybe you puff out your cheeks without knowing anything? I still expect wisdom from you on this topic, or I declare you a demagogue ... request by the way, my Marxism is excellent wink
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Will you justify the nonsense written by you, or will you just merge?

                        Delirium is your path! But I will politely educate you! So that you see the light of wisdom! hi So - the roots of Nazism are in K. Marx's definition of revolutionary and reactionary peoples! I will note - not classes, but PEOPLES! Surprise, but the Russians (like most of the Slavs) are, by his definition, a reactionary people, but the revolutionary people are Germans, Poles ... The question immediately arises - what to do with reactionary peoples ... Next, you chew? From here Drakh-nakh-Ost ... hi We can go on about Mussolini, who was the editor of the main Italian socialist newspaper and suddenly became a fascist ... wink
                      7. alekseykabanets
                        alekseykabanets 5 March 2021 18: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        by the way, my Marxism is excellent

                        Then you should have known that communists differ from social democrats primarily in their attitude to private ownership of the means of production.
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        So - the roots of Nazism are in K. Marx's definition of revolutionary and reactionary peoples! I will note - not classes, but PEOPLES! Surprise, but the Russians (like most of the Slavs) are, by his definition, a reactionary people, but the revolutionary people are Germans, Poles ...

                        The attitude of Marx and Engels towards Russia at that time was due to the appearance of backward, reactionary, feudal-serf Russia, in the role of the "gendarme of Europe". In addition, these are periodicals, not scientific works. Their criticisms of Russia contain no more Russophobia than those of Pushkin or Lermontov, Gogol or Chernyshevsky. A good definition of fascism was given by Dmitrov: “Fascism is an open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic, most imperialist elements of finance capital ... capital. This is the organization of terrorist reprisals against the working class and the revolutionary part of the peasantry and intelligentsia. Fascism in foreign policy is chauvinism in its crudest form, cultivating zoological hatred of other peoples. " Where did you find "zoological hatred of other peoples" in Marx and Engels? His attitude to that Russia, as to a backward, reactionary state oppressing its own and other peoples, is quite understandable and justified. If it had not been for the October Revolution and the life of the people would not have changed fundamentally, then the Russians, as a people (together with the Ukrainians and Belarusians), would most likely have already left the historical stage.
                      8. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 6 March 2021 13: 13
                        -2
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        then the communists differ from the social democrats primarily in their attitude to private ownership of the means of production.

                        you are illiterate in Marxism-Leninism - so a deuce! hi I said the differences above ...

                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        The attitude of Marx and Engels towards Russia at that time was due to the appearance of backward, reactionary, feudal-serf Russia, in the role of the "gendarme of Europe".

                        lies ... they wrote not about the royal power, but the Russian people and other Slavs ... request
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        In addition, these are periodicals, not scientific works.

                        you are funny ...
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Dmitrov gave a good definition of fascism:

                        let's go agitation ... request

                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Where did you find in Marx and Engels "zoological hatred of other peoples"

                        see above!
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        oppressing its own and other peoples to the state, are quite understandable and justified.

                        and to England? These Tasmanians were not cut out? name the people who carved the willow RI?
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        If it had not been for the October Revolution and the life of the people would not have changed fundamentally, then the Russians, as a people (together with the Ukrainians and Belarusians), would most likely have already left the historical stage.

                        what nonsense ... bully It was the Bolsheviks who, having seized power, began to oppress the Russian people, to cut the lands inhabited by Russians to any national republics that never existed - we see the result today! And this is a consequence of the Russophobia of Marxism!
                        I recommend for self-education: https://vtoraya-literatura.com/pdf/n_n_marx_o_rossii_1972__ocr.pdf
                      9. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 6 March 2021 13: 50
                        -1
                        Well, you can read it in detail here: "https://pub.wikireading.ru/29594"
                        including about the origins of German Nazism:
                        "Then Bakunin tries to imagine what the dictatorship of the proletariat will look like in the light of these attitudes of the Marxists. In Marx's synopsis, it looks like this:" and the factory proletariat ... Or, if we look at this issue from a national point of view, then, for the Germans, for the same reason, the Slavs will become to the victorious German proletariat in the same slavish submission as the latter is in relation to its bourgeoisie»."
                        "Bakunin's second thought expresses one of the main ideas of German National Socialism, which intended to turn the Slavs into an" external "proletariat exploited by the victorious German proletariat. Bakunin warned about this half a century before Hitler's book Mein Kampf appeared."
              2. DrEng527
                DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 51
                -3
                Quote: tatra
                WHO are you who call yourself "the Russian people"? Specifically.

                turn this one down to you! Submit your name!
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. BAI
              BAI 5 March 2021 12: 09
              +5
              it means that there were executions of orders

              There was no execution of this order.
              To fulfill paragraph 2, the Artillery Inspector Kasinov prepared and sent out instructions to the combat stations. It said: “When using gas waves, care must be taken so that people and livestock are not harmed. Why should the chief carrying out the attack, through the local authorities, notify the population in advance with an indication of the gas-hazardous areas. Livestock should not be closer than 5 versts from the place of gas release on the leeward side ... "7
              The chemical company that arrived from Kostroma to the Tambov province was placed in the village of Inzhavino and began to be replenished with young conscripts from the illiterate Tambov peasants. When it was necessary to involve the subdivision in matters according to its assignment, the artillery inspector Kasinov sent on July 5 to Inzhavino gas technician V. Puskov to check it, who reported its "deplorable state":
              “Due to the above, namely: constant outfits and the absence of command personnel and uniforms, training sessions are not conducted, people are completely unskilled, and chemistry in relation to gas fighting is absolutely unprepared and incapable of combat "16.

              In this way, There was no one in the Tambov province to carry out gas attacks to clear the forests of the rebels.!
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 5 March 2021 12: 12
                -2
                Quote: BAI
                There was no execution of this order

                link to this case
                1. BAI
                  BAI 5 March 2021 12: 28
                  +4
                  Russian State Military Archives (RGVA). F. 235. Op. 3.D. 56.L. 4
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 5 March 2021 13: 15
                    0
                    Quote: BAI
                    Russian State Military Archives (RGVA). F. 235. Op. 3.D. 56.L. 4


                    I do not see him.
            4. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 5 March 2021 20: 50
              +1
              there were orders, so there were orders.
              Ordered does not mean that it was executed. Not all Wishlist come true. The materiel did not allow. The link was about it.
          2. BAI
            BAI 5 March 2021 12: 03
            +5
            There was only one proven fact

            2 facts. In the zone of the 2nd combat unit northeast of Tambov - 15 shells and 59 shells in the Parevsky forest. No harm done.
        2. BAI
          BAI 5 March 2021 11: 49
          +6
          Even ONE shell, that explosive, that chemical can cause defeat of the enemy, and the Bolsheviks used, judging by the order of Tukhachevsky, MASSOVO shells.

          Rave. There was no massive use of shells. There is not a single documented death from gas. The horses that came under fire survived. We are not even talking about the fact that gas from cylinders was not used at all. The only chemical company in the entire Republic was untrained, lousy and completely incapable of combat. Therefore, it was recalled back to its place of permanent deployment.
          It is reliably known only about 2 cases of the use of chemical shells: 15 and 59 pieces, respectively. Everything, no longer used. No fatalities were recorded. Only moral influence ("smoked" from the forest).
          A certain "archive" allegedly found by a certain Sennikov under the floor of the Winter Church of the Kazan Monastery in Tambov is a linden tree.
          http://history.milportal.ru/tambovskoe-vosstanie-vymysly-i-fakty-ob-ispolzovanii-udushayushhix-gazov/
        3. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 5 March 2021 19: 57
          +2
          and the Bolsheviks used, judging by the order of Tukhachevsky, the MASSOVO shells.

          And how did they do it, if the materiel was from a pine forest? The only unsuccessful attempt.
  4. Far B
    Far B 5 March 2021 04: 57
    +9
    Could the “third” or “green” way have saved Russia?
    Neither the "white" nor the "green" paths would have saved Russia. Because among them there was no main thing - unity. If the whites had won, the swan-crayfish-pike would have begun: Krasnov is digging towards Germany, Denikin - for a single and indivisible one, and some Ungern - in general, is restoring the Chingizid empire. Considering the number of leaders of the "white" movement, they would have completely quarreled among themselves, eventually tearing the country apart. The same applies to the "green movement", where there were a lot of different "fathers" in general. Only the "red" path could save Russia. He was chosen, fortunately.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 5 March 2021 05: 06
      -1
      The food redevelopment was the main reason for the peasant uprisings and the Reds were forced to cancel it, because they realized that they could finally lose the support of the peasantry. Of course, at the moment, returning back to tsarist Russia was objectively impossible, you cannot step twice in the same river. Russian society was painfully rebuilt in the form of a civil war ... its most viable forces at that time ... the Bolsheviks won.
      1. 1331M
        1331M 5 March 2021 05: 37
        +12
        Those who were followed by the people won.
  5. Catfish
    Catfish 5 March 2021 06: 13
    +1
    Strange, but the author somehow lost sight of such an odious personality as the Siberian ataman, Major General Annenkov, who shed so much blood that no "green" and Basmachi were suitable for him. They could catch him, try and shoot him only in 1927.


    Е
    1. Richard
      Richard 5 March 2021 07: 21
      +7
      Unfortunately, this is a common mistake. Ataman of the Siberian Cossacks from 1916 to 1925. was P.P. Ivanov-Rinov.

      Since 1922, P.P. Ivanov-Rinov collaborated with the Soviet agent Gushchin, in the fall of 1925 he was exposed by Colonel G.V. Enborisov, after which he fled to the USSR, for which he was stripped of the rank of military chieftain.
      Annenkov was the "chieftain" of the so-called "Partisan chieftain of the Annenkov division." This division was formed from volunteers: Cossacks, Russian peasants, Kyrgyz (brought together in the so-called Alash Horde regiments), as well as foreigners who lived in Russia - Afghans, Uighurs, Chinese. The latter, consolidated into a separate Manchurian regiment, brought real horror among the local population.
      In the report of the head of the Special Chancellery, which performed the functions of the White Guard counterintelligence, it was especially noted that:
      “Annenkov often did not follow orders, which led to constant conflicts with the command. The tragedy near the Selke pass during the retreat to China led to an open confrontation between the“ Annenkovites ”and the Orenburg Cossacks,“ ... and they force the residents to leave their homes. These are not soldiers - they are outright bandits. Dutov has more than once suggested hanging Annenkov and cutting out this rabble ... ".

      Even if not only the reds, but also the whites themselves spoke about him so, then undoubtedly the scum was still the same.
      Red "Annenkovites" were not taken prisoner in principle
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 5 March 2021 07: 40
        +4
        Yes, I meant that he was the chieftain of his thugs, that person, of course.
  6. nnm
    nnm 5 March 2021 07: 11
    +3
    VOKHR (departmental armed security),

    Probably, this refers to the Armed Protection of the Republic, created under the Cheka / NKVD in 1919. And the OUTSIDE SECURITY - this is a little later and a little from a different story.
  7. rocket757
    rocket757 5 March 2021 07: 25
    +2
    Russia can exist only as a single, strong, centralized state ...
    However, this rule is the same for most states. There are hybrids, but all the same there is something that holds together, unites ...
    The tough period of the Russian state ... but this is our history, which must be known, but understood ... the question is complicated, but it cannot be the reason for the separation of the people, society, at the moment when we need to unite and start moving forward.
    1. tatra
      tatra 5 March 2021 10: 27
      -2
      We cannot get away from the fact that all 103 years of the Soviet and post-Soviet periods we are divided into "red" and "white". Only here the "red" always had and is FOR for their country and people, and the "whites" for their country and people always had and are against. And this orgy with the monument on the Lubyanka once again proved it.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 5 March 2021 11: 20
        +5
        Quote: tatra
        We have nowhere to go

        Who is this? Where are your standard phrases? Was the program fixed or the person connected?
        Quote: tatra
        Only here the "red" always had and is FOR for their country and people, and for the "whites" for their country and people always had and is AGAINST

        Don't oversimplify !!! Not at a party meeting.
        The topic is much more complicated and worthy of serious discussion ... because TRUE is not the prerogative of only one side, there may be options, and time, newly discovered circumstances, facts that were previously unknown, make noticeable adjustments to our judgments and understanding of the issue.

        Quote: tatra
        all 103 years of the Soviet and post-Soviet periods, we are divided into "red" and "white".

        But this is high time to end, now the time requires the unification of all forces, for which RUSSIA, the country, is in the first place. We must save the country, we must move forward, develop ...
        And the authorities, the upper ones, are just as temporary as all the previous ones. We can decide this when we all come together TOGETHER.
        Quote: tatra
        And this orgy with the monument on the Lubyanka once again proved it.

        A "good" reason to overwhelm everyone, again and again .... as always on time. To shorten the tail to the very ears of the one who started it ... Schaub was discouraged to others.
        1. tatra
          tatra 5 March 2021 11: 29
          -2
          I have already answered you - if there is nothing clever to answer in a state - walk by.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 5 March 2021 11: 37
            +2
            Right, at the party meeting ...
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 57
        +2
        Quote: tatra
        FOR for your country and people

        it was when they shot in the Red Terror or exiled millions of kulaks and entire nations? What a porridge you have under your hair ... hi
        1. tatra
          tatra 5 March 2021 12: 03
          -2
          Well, you, enemies of Soviet power, all 103 years of the Soviet and your post-Soviet periods, prove that you are fierce enemies not only BETTER for your country and people - the Soviet power - in comparison with the Romanovs and your Presidents on the territory of the captured USSR, namely -Enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, what are you FOR the invaders of Russia and the USSR, the interventionists and the Nazis, with whom you unleashed two wars against your country and people, destroying more than 30 million citizens of Russia / USSR. And at the same time you still have the audacity to squeal that the Communists repressed you exclusively "for nothing."
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 10
            +2
            Quote: tatra
            you, the enemies of the Soviet regime

            do you copy in blocks or are you a Ukrainian bot? wink
            Quote: tatra
            And at the same time you still have the audacity to squeal that the Communists repressed you exclusively "for nothing."

            Until the age of 12 my mother was under the commandant's office, now she is a victim of communist repressions ... Can you explain what this girl was guilty of?
            1. tatra
              tatra 5 March 2021 12: 14
              0
              What does this have to do with the Ukrainian bots that are in the manuals of Putin's paid propagandists? Are you one of them, or what? And YES, with their "freedom" from the communists, the enemies of the communists have proved that they will never admit guilt either for their crimes or for the crimes of their relatives. On the other hand, they all have a mental inclination to libelous accusations of crimes against others.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 36
                +2
                Quote: tatra
                What do Ukrainian bots have to do with it?

                you are like them - do not respond to arguments and write the same thing ... request
                I repeat the question:
                Quote: DrEng527
                Until the age of 12 my mother was under the commandant's office, now she is a victim of communist repressions ... Can you explain what this girl was guilty of?
                1. tatra
                  tatra 5 March 2021 12: 41
                  -2
                  How can I know something about your mom? The enemies of the communists, after you seized Russia in passing, ALL repressed in the USSR for political reasons, and ALL criminals who went through the Gulag for 30 years, without the slightest proof, were declared "innocent victims"
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: tatra
                    How can I know something about your mom?

                    I wrote you everything! does her age bother you? that she was removed from supervision at the age of 12 in 1950?
                    Quote: tatra
                    ALL criminals who went through the GULAG

                    those. all criminals who got into the GULAG? you have a complete aberration of concepts! So what was Korolyov to blame for? Tupolev? Rokossovsky? and others, others, others ...
                    1. tatra
                      tatra 5 March 2021 12: 48
                      -2
                      And for YOU, the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, it is completely normal to commit a CRIME - walking, without the slightest proof, declare all 10 million who have gone through the GULAG in 30 years "innocent victims", and on this basis declare the government criminal, only for the sake of benefits to justify your capture of the USSR?
                      1. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 5 March 2021 12: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: tatra
                        and on this basis declare the power criminal

                        1) You are illiterate - the CPSU itself did it through the lips of Khrushchev request
                        2) To write something further to you is not to respect yourself! you are a Bandera bot!
                      2. clerk
                        clerk 10 March 2021 18: 33
                        0
                        .
                        and on this basis declare the power criminal
                        /////////
                        1) You are illiterate - the CPSU itself did it through the lips of Khrushchev
                        Nobody authorized Khrushchev to do this - it was his personal initiative.
        2. rocket757
          rocket757 5 March 2021 12: 41
          +1
          None of the REAL REVOLUTION, did not go without sacrifices ... this is not for the very reassurance, it's just a historical fact.
          The question is, HOW MANY citizens of the country were involved in all the events ... the variant with Russia was also distinguished by the factors of external intervention, external negative impact, and the very idea of ​​building a state the ruling class in which not those who are in other countries can become, but absolutely terrible for them, PEOPLE, WORKING CLASS.
          It was a tough time, there were no white and fluffy ones on either side of the confrontation ...
          It is even more difficult to describe everything further ... this is only for tatra everything is simple and clear, "the enemies of the communists and ... further according to the standard."
  8. parusnik
    parusnik 5 March 2021 07: 34
    +5
    Again "historical" stories from Samsonov. smile
  9. Avis
    Avis 5 March 2021 08: 58
    +3
    And "Alexander Samsonov", by chance, is not the pseudonym of another Alexander - Bushkov? He also loves to talk about virtual history based on real events.
  10. Free wind
    Free wind 5 March 2021 11: 00
    +2
    in the photo, the army is somehow small. laughing laughing laughing
  11. Cartalon
    Cartalon 5 March 2021 11: 04
    -2
    And how, in general, the Russian people could live before the Bolsheviks is not clear, according to all the data it should have died out.
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 5 March 2021 11: 57
      -2
      Quote: Cartalon
      according to all data, it should have died out.

      Bravo! love
    2. tatra
      tatra 5 March 2021 13: 27
      -1
      Well, the enemies of the Bolsheviks do not care that the Russian people under the Romanovs were in the first place in the world in mortality, and that after the capture of Russia by you, the Russian people are dying out at a tremendous rate, the enemies of the Bolsheviks do not care, because your "great philanthropy" is included only in your anti-Sovietism ... In all other cases, it is disabled.
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon 5 March 2021 13: 49
        +1
        Under the Romanovs, the Russian people were in first place in terms of numbers.
        And who are we who captured Russia, Russians?
        1. tatra
          tatra 5 March 2021 13: 57
          -1
          You DO NOT need to cowardly get out. The fact that under the Romanovs the population of Ingushetia for 85% consisted of peasants, abortions were prohibited under pain of criminal punishment for doctors and women, there were no contraceptives, does not negate the fact that in Ingushetia there was the highest mortality rate. year.
          In 1st place Argentina - 21,7 Born 38, died 16,3.
          In 2nd place Australia - 17,5 Born 28,3, died 10,8.
          In 3rd place Russia (without Poland and Finland) - 16,8 - born 47, died 30,2
          Mortality in other countries: France - 17,5, Germany - 15,1, Great Britain - 14,3.
    3. parusnik
      parusnik 5 March 2021 15: 06
      +3
      An interesting fact, under the Bolsheviks, there was fish in the Kuban and the Sea of ​​Azov. And it was different. Probably because the population was brought out on the vine. And by 2000 there was no fish at all, except for crucian carp and anchovy. Apparently the population increased dramatically and ate all the fish. it has become better and more fun. Yes, and to this day there is no fish in the river, canals. Catching a goby is prohibited. Sometimes they are allowed to catch. Life has improved. laughing
  12. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 5 March 2021 11: 31
    +1
    On this, Russia and the Russian people can be safely buried.

    Russian civilization cannot withstand a new catastrophe.

    Russians are erased from history.


    What an enchanting cryptohistorical nonsense laughing
  13. Old electrician
    Old electrician 6 March 2021 14: 30
    0
    In August 1920, several villages revolted. They refused to hand over the bread. And with the support of the partisans, they began to destroy food detachments, local Bolsheviks and security officers
    - gee-gee-gee! So the continuation of the phrase "and then burst out all over Russia" is asked.
    I must upset the author that there was no peasant uprising in the Tambov province. In order to be convinced of this, it is enough to familiarize yourself with the list of commanders of the "peasant uprising":
    ANTONOV Alexander Stepanovich - a tradesman, a member of the Socialist-Revolutionary Party since 1906. After the February Revolution of 1917, he returned to Tambov from exile, the head of the district militia, remained in this post under the Bolsheviks. From the winter of 1917 he was preparing a mutiny, accumulating weapons in secret places; in the summer of 1918, after being exposed, he fled. At the end of 1918, Antonov, at the head of a small detachment, defeated the Zolotovsky volost council, killed several council members, then on the list ...
    TOKMAKOV P.M. - Lieutenant, Socialist-Revolutionary, in 1918 organized a gang to fight the Soviets. The political leader of the rebellion, since November 1920, the commander of the United Partisan Army of the Tambov Territory.
    1st Rebel Army. The commander is Colonel Boguslavsky, then Captain Gubarev.
    2nd Insurgent Army. The commander is Staff Captain Mitrofanovich.
    3rd Army - Cavalry-mobile. The commander is sergeant-major Kolesnikov. Regiments: 1st Bogucharsky (commander vakhmister I.S.Kolesnikov), Cossack (commander Esaul Frolov), Khopersky (commander cornet Matarykin), 2nd Bogucharsky (centurion Popov).
    As you can see, there are not even kulaks among the leaders of the rebellion, therefore, as I present Colonel Boguslavsky, exhausted by the Bolshevik surplus appropriation, the heart bleeds.
    Now about the driving force of the "peasant uprising". As of February 1917, there were about 30-40 parties in Russia. As of August 1917, the RSDLP (b) consisted of about 240 thousand party members, the RSDLP (o) (united RSDLP, Mensheviks) about 250 thousand party members, Socialist-Revolutionaries from 750 thousand to 1 million, about 100 thousand cadets, etc. .P. More or less precisely, one can say about the number of Bolsheviks, the rest is only estimated. As for, for example, anarchists, their number is not even appreciated. It is only known that practically the entire Baltic Fleet was anarchist. If the Bolsheviks did not have the support of the population, they would never have been able to withstand.
    On the instructions of the Socialist-Revolutionary Center, the Antonov revolt was prepared by the underground organizations of the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Cadets in Tambov who collaborated with each other. In 1917-1920, agents of these parties infiltrated literally all Soviet organizations in Tambov. Their intelligence capabilities were simply amazing - the combat experience of the underground struggle against the tsarist secret police was not to be occupied by the Socialist-Revolutionaries. So, for example, in 1919 it cost them nothing to provide false documents and hide from the eyes of the Cheka about two, two and a half thousand people of future "peasant rebels". In 1920 - early 1921, Antonov received copies of orders for military operations against him even before these orders were received by the corresponding Red troops.
    The Social Revolutionary underground organization in Tambov was associated with the Moscow Social Revolutionary organization, and that, in turn, was associated with the Social Revolutionary Center in Poland. This Center was headed by the famous terrorist Boris Savenkov. The ruling circles of England and France supported any anti-Soviet forces, including Savinkov's Socialist-Revolutionary organization. The intelligence services of these countries actively provided him with the necessary assistance, therefore the illegal communication channel Warsaw - Moscow - Tambov in 1919-1921 worked smoothly and fairly quickly, despite the blockade and wartime. It remains to add that the underground organizations of the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Cadets in Tambov were defeated only in the spring of 1921. Without this, the elimination of the rebellion would have been impossible.
    Preparations for the Socialist-Revolutionary rebellion began in the winter of 1917-1918, i.e. almost immediately after the establishment of Soviet power. The first two unsuccessful attempts at the Socialist-Revolutionary revolts, which took place in the summer of 1918, were instantly defeated. The mistakes of these failures were taken into account and the SRs prepared much more thoroughly for the next mutiny. Weapons were collected - 12 thousand rifles, about four hundred machine guns and even 4 cannons. Under the guise of supplying the Red Army in Tambov and neighboring provinces, horses were purchased for the cavalry. In the clandestine command courses, future field commanders from among the White Shepherds were trained in guerrilla tactics using the example of the Patriotic War of 1812. An extensive intelligence-conspiratorial network based on kulak families was created throughout the Tambov province. Everything is according to science.
    According to Savinkov's original plan, the rebellion was to begin in May 1920 - simultaneously with the invasion of Poland into Soviet Russia. However, Antonov, despite Savinkov's order, was afraid to start, he had no confidence in victory.
    On August 12, 1920, the Poles launched a counterattack on Tukhachevsky's troops, and by August 16 he was defeated. This time Savinkov was more persistent, and on August 19, 1920, Antonov began a mutiny all over the Tambov region at once. At the same time, the SR gang of Bulak-Balakhovich invaded the territory of Belarus from Poland, which planned to raise all the peasants of Russia to fight the Soviets, triumphantly reach the Tambov region and unite with Antonov. Alas for modern common people, but the punishers from the Bulak-Balakhovich gang pushed the peasants away from themselves with their atrocities and, finding themselves without the support of the population, were defeated.
    In the Antonov army there were about 10 thousand ideological: Social Revolutionaries, White Guard officers, Don and other Cossacks, representatives of various anti-Soviet parties, who flocked like vultures from all over Russia, kulaks and simply unprincipled bandits. Peasants (about 40 thousand) were driven into the Antonov army with whips.
    The Social Revolutionary ideology was based on the postulate of "hero and crowd", that is, the hero-revolutionary must drive the inert, unprincipled crowd into a bright future with a powerful hand. Therefore, the leaders of the uprising and their henchmen treated the peasants as cattle. Any manifestations of dissatisfaction with the "liberators from surplus appropriation" were suppressed in the most merciless way - from flogging to execution and burning alive with their families. The entire population of the Tambov region then lived in wooden houses with thatched roofs. Unhappy peasant families, accused of anti-Socialist-Revolutionary sedition, drove into the house, boarded up the doors and set fire to the roof ... In the course of instilling the Socialist-Revolutionary ideology on the peasants, some villages of the Tambov region were destroyed to the last inhabitant. Freedom from the Bolsheviks is called.
    To propagate their ideology, the Antonovites made several raids into neighboring provinces, which were not covered by the Socialist-Revolutionary intelligence-conspiratorial network. In the course of these raids, they were piously convinced that if they only had to brutally slaughter the families of village councilors, state farm workers and peasants who showed dissatisfaction with the requisition (robbery) in favor of the heroic fighters against Bolshevism, the whole country would flare up with an anti-Bolshevik uprising. Surprisingly, for some reason such agitation did not work, and the rebellion along its entire length did not go beyond the initial boundaries of the Socialist-Revolutionary intelligence-conspiratorial network. But within the framework of this network, the peasants did not dare to utter a word against it. This was extremely hazardous to health.
    At first, the Bolsheviks had no time for Antonov, but already at the beginning of 1921, the Socialist-Revolutionaries became clear that the elimination of the rebellion was only a matter of time. Therefore, to save Antonov, the Socialist-Revolutionary Center organized the West Siberian and Kronstadt uprisings of 1921.
    The West Siberian mutiny was a copy of Antonov's. Up to 100 thousand peasants were driven into it on mobilization. The main driving forces are the kulaks and the remnants of the Kolchak and Cossack officers. "Commander-in-Chief" - lieutenant of the Kolchak army, Socialist-Revolutionary V.A. Rodin. The mutiny was poorly prepared and was defeated by early April.
    I have already spoken about the Kronstadt mutiny at VO, I will not repeat it. I will just clarify that his spontaneity is just a myth of our time.
    The defeat of the West Siberian and Kronstadt revolts led the Antonovites into a depressed state, they realized their doom. By this time, the falsity of the Socialist-Revolutionaries became obvious to the peasants. Therefore, the Bolsheviks' announcement of the NEP policy in March 1921 was a terrible ideological blow to the Antonov revolt. In addition, in the spring of the same year, the underground organizations of the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Cadets in Tambov were liquidated. Antonov immediately "went blind" and was abandoned by the Center to the mercy of fate.
    The military operation to defeat the rebellion began on May 28, 1921. In all open battles, the Antonovites were defeated, the peasants not only fled, but also went over to the side of the Reds in whole regiments. By the end of June 1921, all the more or less large Socialist-Revolutionary bands were defeated. As a result, from May 28 to July 26, 1921, the rebels lost 11 thousand people killed and wounded. The deserters from the Antonov army captured during the raids, as well as those who voluntarily surrendered, were almost 37 thousand people. In August 1921, the rebellion was finally suppressed, Antonov was killed in June 1922.
    The rapid defeat of the Antonov rebellion is extremely depressing for modern common people. Therefore, they need scary tales about the use of chemical weapons against peasants. Suffice it to recall Colin Powell with his test tube on the UN rostrum. I will say briefly: tales of the use of chemical weapons against peasants do not have the slightest documentary evidence. Some illiterate fakes.
  14. gsev
    gsev 6 March 2021 23: 51
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    the reform was simply not completed and a class of property owners did not have time to form in the countryside.

    It's just that the Stolypin reform has come to its logical end; to the ruin of the active part of the peasantry, who believed Stolypin, abandoned their small homeland and went for land to Siberia, Turkestan and the Far East, where many of them experienced great difficulties. It was these Stolypin settlers who broke the back of the Kolchak and Semyonov rebels in 1919-1922. Likewise, Yeltsin's and Gorbachev's reforms ended with the collapse and degradation of industry in the USSR and Russia. How the familiar designer from the aircraft factory "Complete Serdyukovschina!"