August 23 - Soviet Victory Day in the Battle of Kursk (1943)

In February, 1943, as a result of the brilliant operation of the Soviet troops, was surrounded and captured at Stalingrad by the 6 Army under the command of Friedrich Paulus. The victory in the battle of Stalingrad allowed the Soviet command to take over the strategic initiative and thwart the Wehrmacht’s plans to seize Stalingrad and exit to Baku oil. Also during the strategic operations of the Soviet Army in the autumn-winter 1942-43. in the center of the Soviet-German front, a protrusion measuring about 150 kilometers in depth and 200 kilometers in width was formed, called the Kursk Bulge. The German command could not allow the initiative to pass into the hands of the enemy on the Eastern Front and planned a major strategic operation, called the "Citadel" for the summer of 1943.


August 23 - Soviet Victory Day in the Battle of Kursk (1943)


It was originally planned to attack from two sides with convergent attacks in the area of ​​the Kursk ledge from the north and south (in the area of ​​the city of Orel and Belgorod, respectively), then the advancing Wehrmacht armies were to join in the area of ​​the city of Kursk, encircling and destroying the troops of the Soviet fronts (Voronezh and Central) . To conduct the operation, the German command transferred about 50 divisions, including up to 18 tank and motorized divisions, to the Kursk ledge region tank brigades, three tank battalions, as well as eight battalions of assault guns. E. von Manstein and G. von Kluge were appointed commanders of German troops. For support from the air, the forces of 4 and 6 German air fronts were urgently deployed. The total number of German troops pulled into the area of ​​the Kursk ledge, according to preliminary estimates, amounted to about 900 thousand soldiers.

Soviet troops went on the defensive, deciding to inflict defeat on the enemy forces by conducting a series of counterattacks at a critical moment. To implement the strategic defense plan, a series of defensive fortifications was created; in total, 8 defensive lines were organized; the front mining area was about 1500-1700 minutes per 1 kilometer. KK Rokossovsky and NF Vatutin were appointed commanders of the Soviet troops, assisted troops in the reserves were carried out by the Steppe Front commanded by the renowned commander I. S. Konev, the actions of the fronts were coordinated by AM Vasilevsky and G. K. Zhukov.

A huge strategic role in the battle on the Kursk Bulge was played by the technical equipment of the army. The German command massively transferred the latest equipment, among which were the Panther, Tiger, and the Ferdinand assault gun. In the upcoming battle, the Soviet command gave great importance to the air forces. So, for the first time in a battle on the Kursk Bulge, such a miracle of technology as the LA-5FN plane was used, aviation anti-tank bombs "PTAB".



The Battle of Kursk began early in the morning of July 5 1943 of the year. The great achievement of the Soviet command was that, thanks to intelligence, the German offensive time was known - 5 o'clock in the morning, which allowed the Soviet troops to begin artillery preparation earlier, thereby disrupting plans for a surprise attack, and also destroying the communication lines of the enemy and part of the troops.

The Battle of Kursk is also famous for the largest tank battle at Prokhorovka, held on July 12 1943, in which participated up to 700 tanks on each side.

The strategic importance of the victory of the Russian people in the battle of Kursk is enormous, because it was this battle that finally transferred the strategic initiative to the Soviet command, and also became a prerequisite for the liberation of Orel, Belgorod and Kharkov, gave impetus to the transition of the Soviet troops to a victorious offensive to the west, the date the beginning of which is considered to be 23 of August - the day of the end of the greatest battle of all time - the Battle of Kursk, Day of Military Glory of Russia. On this day, remembering the glorious victory of the Russian weaponsOne can not forget about the losses of the heroic Soviet Army that it suffered in those great days. 254 470 dead, missing and captured, 608 833 wounded and maimed, 150 thousands of weapons, more than 6 thousands of tanks, 5200 guns and mortars, 1600 aircraft.

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  1. erased 23 August 2012 08: 20 New
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    And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34.
    It was a pity that the author did not bother to look at the documents.
    But regardless of errors, the essence of the article is correct! Glory to the Red Army! Glory to the Great Victory!
    1. tronin.maxim 23 August 2012 08: 24 New
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      Quote: erased
      And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34.
      It was a pity that the author did not bother to look at the documents.
      But regardless of errors, the essence of the article is correct! Glory to the Red Army! Glory to the Great Victory!

      If you think so, show these documents! Be kind! Or, as always, leash would blurt out !?
      1. tronin.maxim 23 August 2012 08: 27 New
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        It is understandable, because everyone knows that the West is trying to rewrite our history. The best witnesses of that battle are veterans!
        1. Vanek
          Vanek 23 August 2012 08: 29 New
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          Quote: tronin.maxim
          The best witnesses of that battle are veterans!


          Unfortunately, they are less and less. But when it will not be at all, then ......
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Everyone knows that the West is trying to rewrite our history.
        2. Vadivak 23 August 2012 09: 13 New
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          Quote: tronin.maxim
          everyone knows that the west is trying to rewrite our history


          The American Heritage Picture History of World War II, C. Sulzberger, and Hitler and Russia, T. Higgins, allude to battles near El Alamein and Midway, in Tunisia and Sicily, in southern Italy and on the Pacific islands, but they do not have a single line about the Battle of Kursk. Many bourgeois historians continue to repeat the version that the German offensive did not take a serious place in the plans of the German high command, that is, pursued "limited goals."
          1. Trapperxnumx 23 August 2012 12: 55 New
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            Quote: Vadivak
            The American Heritage Picture History of World War II, C. Sulzberger, and Hitler and Russia, T. Higgins, allude to battles near El Alamein and Midway, in Tunisia and Sicily, in southern Italy and on the Pacific islands, but they do not have a single line about the Battle of Kursk. Many bourgeois historians continue to repeat the version that the German offensive did not take a serious place in the plans of the German high command, that is, pursued "limited goals."

            Something it reminds me of ... As if somewhere already met ...
            AAAA, EXACTLY !!! ETOGES modern scholars love to correlate our ancient chronicles with the data of European sources. And if in “Europe they didn’t write about it, then it didn’t exist” ...
            So, if nothing changes, our descendants will be told through 50 that the Great Patriotic War is a myth, that all battles (major) were fought in the Pacific Ocean and North Africa, and there was a local conflict and local battles on the Eastern Front. ..
        3. Aleks28 23 August 2012 16: 20 New
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          This is nothing more, read German history. It says that the Germans lost the Battle of Kursk because the Amers landed a battalion of marines in Sicily. fool
          1. APASUS 23 August 2012 18: 57 New
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            Quote: Allex28
            This is nothing more, read German history. It says that the Germans lost the Battle of Kursk because the Amers landed a battalion of marines in Sicily

            They drove Bruce Willis there ......... and all the Germans put in their pants !!!
            1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 23: 34 New
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              Well done, everything is in order with humor, but I don’t (as I watch German TV.)
              1. Simon 24 August 2012 17: 42 New
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                Well done.! Good humor, I liked the same thing. good
          2. Nubia2
            Nubia2 24 August 2012 08: 21 New
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            Quote: Allex28
            This is nothing more, read German history. It says that the Germans lost the Battle of Kursk because the Amers landed a battalion of marines in Sicily

            Please quote the source with a quote.
      2. Cap-3 USSR 23 August 2012 09: 41 New
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        Some youth representatives sometimes carry such nonsense that it’s a shame to stand up for our education and the state.
        1. APASUS 24 August 2012 20: 37 New
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          Quote: Cap-3 USSR
          Some youth representatives sometimes carry such nonsense that it’s a shame to stand up for our education and the state.

          Why be ashamed?
          Our native state headed ....................... put us under the West and now they write history there !!! And the children perceive what they are taught at school !!!!
          And in other matters, I won’t be surprised if in 20 years they will teach at the school ((((((that the Wehrmacht won the Battle of Kursk)))
      3. Ross 24 August 2012 00: 22 New
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        tronin.maxim,
        In vain Stehr mined, in fact, he is right about the account of Prokhorovka:

        http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2003-10-31/5_prohorovka.html

        http://www.topsecretz.net/blog/histori/100.html
        It’s just that Vatutin’s tactics were very different from Rokossovsky’s, therefore there was a different result.
    2. Vadivak 23 August 2012 08: 42 New
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      Quote: erased
      research came out long ago


      And you do not study German "studies" for an hour? Here is a description of the operation "citadel" of the famous German pilot

      In the book Die Ersten und die Letzten (First and Last), General Adolf Galland, who commanded the Luftwaffe fighter aircraft in World War II, mentions the greatest land battle that has ever happened in history: “In July 1943, German soldiers launched last major offensive. The attack was repelled. "

      Here you have an eyewitness, here’s the whole Battle of Kursk, and why pamper them, and you probably know that the Germans were defeated not by Russians but by “general frost”, bad roads and dishonest wars on Sundays

    3. Baron Wrangell 23 August 2012 08: 48 New
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      Quote: erased
      And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local tiger-style collisions against the T-34. I regretted that the author did not bother to look at the documents.

      justify, or at least throw off the link!
      1. Alexander Romanov 23 August 2012 09: 00 New
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        Quote: Baron Wrangell
        justify, or at least throw off the link!

        Yeah, he’ll give you a link, from an American history textbook. He will be witnessing another 50 years and there will be many more like him. Any trash who studies history on American grandees has divorced, they’ll write this ....... Soon they’ll say that we started a warrior and attacked peaceful Germany.
        1. Indigo
          Indigo 23 August 2012 10: 22 New
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          .
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          They will soon say that we started a warrior and attacked peaceful Germany.


          ..and atomic bombs are applicable against Japan ...
          1. Suvorov000
            Suvorov000 24 August 2012 11: 44 New
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            What does it mean we apply, you are aware that most of the youth of Japan and the Japanese islands think that we did not use the nuclear bomb on them, but the Americans, the propaganda bends as it should
            1. Indigo
              Indigo 24 August 2012 12: 37 New
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              either the letters do not dance like that, or I was inattentive - it’s clear that applied (checked spelling three times) ...
        2. volcano 23 August 2012 11: 36 New
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          Hello, Alexander. Here is an excerpt from Nick Perumov’s book “The Skull on the Sleeve,” it is unlikely that the science fiction thought that this could be so, but how accurately the trend


          And then she read to us from the textbook sent ...

          “Never, neither the German Reich nor the German nation were enemies of other nations. The German army fought against dishonest politicians who plunged their peoples into a terrible war. And in order to put an end to the suffering of people on both sides of the front as soon as possible, the officers of the General Staff created the theory of “lightning war”. It allowed quickly encircling the enemy armies, forcing them to surrender without much bloodshed. Consider, for example, the operation of the German army on the Balkan Peninsula ... "

          “The German people have never experienced any negative feelings towards the great Russian people, who more than once turned out to be an ally of the German people, as, for example, during the Liberation War of 1813 - 1815 or during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 ... And during the Second World War II, the German nation did not fight with the Russian people. The war was fought against the communist regime of the Soviet Union, a regime that caused innumerable calamities to its own citizens, robbed workers, took land from the peasants and destroyed all educated people who disagree with its policy ... "

          And so on and so forth. Lies woven with truth are the worst kind of lies ....
      2. erased 23 August 2012 10: 51 New
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        Catch
        Isaev A.V. "From the tragedy of Kharkov to the Kursk breakthrough." Veche, 2009
        Lopukhovsky L.N. "Prokhorovka without signature stamp". Eksmo 2005.

        The point is not to stifle history and belittle Great Victory. And in truth. She is most important.
        1. подводник 23 August 2012 12: 04 New
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          Isaev A.V. - was born on August 15, 1974 ...........
          What does he know that which soldiers and officers who participated in this battle do not know?
          This is probably a fucking expert for you?
          Oh well...
          1. erased 23 August 2012 12: 43 New
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            Date of birth is not a sentence. Cited in the book links to documents do not have nationality, age, point of view. These are just the facts. To accept them or not is everyone's business. But deny ... demonstrate a lack of reason.
            1. harrymur 23 August 2012 21: 21 New
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              Yes, you verbiage, idiot ebte, do not ghouls gathered here, who you are treating, a purge, what documents, there was a clean mat, they gave the Germans with a guy on the head, a clear victory !!!!!
        2. Tourist Breakfast 23 August 2012 12: 49 New
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          Isaev wrote somewhere that there was no tank battle near Prokhorovka? Are you confusing anything?

          The counterattack of Soviet troops in the area of ​​Prokhorovka was the expected move for the Germans. As early as the spring of 1943, more than a month before the offensive, the option of repelling a counterattack from the Prokhorovka area was being worked out, and what to do, part II of the SS Panzer Corps was well aware. Instead of moving to Oboyan, the SS divisions “Leibstandart” and “Dead Head” were put under the counterblow of the army of P. A. Rotmistrov. As a result, the planned flank counterattack degenerated into a head-on collision with large tank forces of the Germans. The 18th and 29th tank corps lost up to 70% of their tanks and were actually removed from the game ...
          Despite this, the operation took place in a very tense atmosphere, and only offensive, I emphasize, offensive actions of other fronts made it possible to avoid a catastrophic development of events.
          1. Kars 23 August 2012 12: 59 New
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            The picture is suitable for comment, and the numbers are pretty reliable.
            1. igordok 23 August 2012 15: 06 New
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              Thank. These are not bare numbers.

              Panzer-III and Panzer-IV против T-70 and T-34.
            2. Aleks28 23 August 2012 16: 26 New
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              Everything is so, but one thing, but. The Germans left the battlefield, and during the night they managed to evacuate most of the wrecked equipment. The abandoned Soviet tanks were blown up.
            3. eJik
              eJik 23 August 2012 19: 35 New
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              hmm, how did you manage to lose all the su-122? they don’t even have blanks .. not for direct contact of self-propelled guns
        3. Ratibor12
          Ratibor12 23 August 2012 13: 17 New
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          Quote: erased
          Isaev A.V. "From the tragedy of Kharkov to the Kursk breakthrough." Veche, 2009
          Lopukhovsky L.N. "Prokhorovka without signature stamp". Eksmo 2005.

          The point is not to stifle history and belittle Great Victory. And in truth. She is most important.


          The farther from the time of events, the more errors. I will perceive the books of the 50s and 60s as truth. I regard the delirium written during the information occupation of Russia as propaganda of the enemy. Do you like to eat someone else's ... shit? Eat and praise. Just do not share with us.
          1. valiant
            valiant 28 August 2012 21: 28 New
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            Books of the 50-60s are absolute soviet veiled propaganda that has passed a hundred censorships! Now there is free access to archives and documents, according to which distinguished historians (Isaev, Lopukhovsky, Zamulin, Krivosheev) have restored the REAL history of the battle, this real TRUTH, from which we must learn lessons, if you do not want to believe the FACTS, then read the memoirs of veterans- tankmen assembled by Drabkin.
    4. Vadivak 23 August 2012 09: 15 New
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      No oncoming battles of the tank masses,


      Near Kursk, according to the West German historian (Walter.) Goerlitz, "the last formations capable of conducting offensive operations were burned, turned into ashes, and the ridge of German tank forces was broken ".
    5. Moga 23 August 2012 10: 38 New
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      My grandmother lives 30 km from Prokhorovka. I was often there and personally saw the "history of the war", although I did not take part in the excavations, but the guys didn’t get out of the ground.
    6. Alx1miK
      Alx1miK 23 August 2012 11: 22 New
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      Quote: erased
      And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34.
      It was a pity that the author did not bother to look at the documents.

      Kursk arc? Tank battles? In my opinion, the Allies marched all over Europe and helped beat the Germans on the Volga. "Read the documents."
    7. Joker 23 August 2012 15: 01 New
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      Please pay attention to the topic in the forum, innovations on the site are discussed, here is the link http://forum.topwar.ru/topic/2832-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B8% D0% BD% D0% B3-% D0
      %BD%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0
      %B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5/

      So that later, as with the moderators, it did not work out.
    8. pribolt
      pribolt 23 August 2012 15: 14 New
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      Quote: erased
      And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34.
      It was a pity that the author did not bother to look at the documents.


      And let's not turn everything upside down. Even now, channels like Discovery call this battle "The Greatest Battle in History," the English channel specifically cited, if the Britons say so, then we generally have a sin to review the results of this battle. All over the world in all tank schools study the Battle of Kursk
      1. valiant
        valiant 28 August 2012 21: 49 New
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        And nobody turns upside down. According to recent studies in the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense TOTAL, from July 5 to 17, the 2nd SS mall (namely, this unit participated in the Battle of Kursk) irretrievably lost 34 tanks (9 Pz III, 22 Pz IV and 3 Tigres), 6 assault self-propelled guns and 5 anti-tank self-propelled guns. While the irreparable losses of only three corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army amounted, according to secret Soviet reports, at least 334 tanks and self-propelled guns ("self-propelled guns"). The complete failure of the military operation was reported to the Supreme. Stalin called General Rotmistrov, who commanded Soviet tanks, “to the carpet” and indignantly asked: “What are you, m ... duck, in one day you have ruined the whole army, but did nothing?” The “dashing commander”, who laid 334 tanks on the battlefield, was threatened with execution. General Vasilevsky "repelled" Rotmistrov, who proposed ... to increase the number of German tanks participating in the battle by 2,5 times to 700, and the enemy’s losses by 50-70 times, to 300-400 vehicles, to make them comparable with the soviet. The very next day, the “specified” data were reported to the Supreme, and the leader changed his anger to mercy. As a result, General Rotmistrov managed to avoid a military tribunal. By the way, many Soviet commanders of the Great Patriotic War did not disdain such "postscripts". Such arithmetic made it possible to justify their losses, several times higher than the losses of the enemy, and at the same time to receive an order for the chest for a "brilliant" battle or battle. By the way, the same Rotmistrov after the battle of Prokhorovka, where he "destroyed" 400 enemy "tigers," was introduced to the Order of Suvorov, XNUMXst degree.
    9. klimpopov 23 August 2012 15: 49 New
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      And a veteran lives in my neighbors, a woman on the Kursk Bulge was a nurse, you lost your hand, you tell her about these documents, and about where she received her awards ... by the way, then for a long time, almost until retirement I worked at school, relatively recently I learned from my father that she was on the Kursk Bulge)
      Scoundrel. I read the sources indicated by you, are you sure that you are talking about them?
  2. tronin.maxim 23 August 2012 08: 22 New
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    Yes, what a battle! It's nice to remember the victory of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers again! Glory to the people! Glory to the people of the winner! fellow
    1. Sergh
      Sergh 23 August 2012 08: 49 New
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      Quote: tronin.maxim
      again remember the victory of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers

      I agree, my grandfather passed the whole Kursk, but earlier, when we asked him about the war, he was always silent or changed the subject, though he hadn’t been there for a long time, now I would definitely ask him.
      Let there be at least as many interpretations about this tank battle (read, watched, heard), nothing will overshadow the valor and heroism of our soldier.
      1. sergeant1973
        sergeant1973 23 August 2012 18: 25 New
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        My grandfather began to fight near Kursk in the summer of 43. The second number of the machine gun Maxim ended the war in Köningsberg and said the same little. honor and glory to them who defeated fascism. And these hollow breeds just enrage
    2. Sakhalininsk 23 August 2012 09: 39 New
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      + I fully agree with you, we must remember and be proud of this victory!
    3. igordok 23 August 2012 15: 09 New
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      It was a tough battle.
  3. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 23 August 2012 08: 31 New
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    A monstrous battle in the heat! It is unlikely that we will find out who else would be able to withstand and win in such a battle! The Red Army survived. and won!
  4. volcano 23 August 2012 08: 37 New
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    Glorious battle. So the Fritz piled on.
    My grandfather fought on the Kursk Bulge. He commanded a tank company.
    He knocked out 4 tigers and then knocked out himself. Burned in the tank. The only crew survived. Received a red star for this.
    Glory to our veterans.
    They are less and less.
    1. mamba
      mamba 23 August 2012 21: 48 New
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      I managed to find places of fights in which my cousin maternal grandfather Leonid Ivanovich Gusev participated, the place of his death on the Kursk Bulge and the mass grave in which he was buried. Contrary to family tradition, he fought on the northern front of the Kursk Bulge, and not near Prokhorovka. His 19th tank corps was at the forefront of the main attack of the northern German group in the Olkhovatka region. When you read the memories of the participants of the battles in this direction, the hair moves on the head. How could this be sustained? http://www.wizardfox.net/
      Grandfather was then a young lieutenant and commanded a platoon of T-34-76 tanks in the 432th tank battalion of the 101st tank brigade of the 19th tank corps. Leonid Ivanovich died during the offensive of our troops after the fighting on the Kursk Bulge on July 17, 1943 in the area of ​​the village of Soborovka in the Verkhne-Lyubazhsky District of the Kursk Region. According to the stories of a fellow soldier, a tank platoon of Lieutenant Gusev carried out reconnaissance in battle and was ambushed by "ferdinandy". All died.
  5. Senzey
    Senzey 23 August 2012 08: 39 New
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    Eternal Glory to the heroes and Eternal memory to the fallen!
    It was really a battle of the titans - the two most powerful armies in the world at that time. And the fact that our army won is the merit of the entire Soviet people, which in a short time mobilized all their will and strength to fight the enemy.
  6. albanec
    albanec 23 August 2012 08: 40 New
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    "Your feat is immortal! Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten." smile
  7. djsa1 23 August 2012 08: 45 New
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    Eternal memory to the fallen participants.
  8. Petrovich-2 23 August 2012 08: 52 New
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    And on that day Kharkov was liberated !!
    My favorite city.
    1. tommytros 23 August 2012 09: 04 New
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      Let's play in the cities? :)
  9. Apollo 23 August 2012 09: 08 New
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    During the Battle of Kursk fate was decided not only the USSR but also all over the world.

    Eternal memory to heroes !!!
  10. valokordin 23 August 2012 09: 08 New
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    what monstrous losses, the eternal memory of the fallen, the eternal glory of the living. Long live our glorious Red Army and SA.
  11. borisst64
    borisst64 23 August 2012 09: 17 New
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    He himself was born in the village of Bobryshevo (see the map of the Belgorod-Kursk direction above), during the battle there was Zhukov’s headquarters. The old men raskaskaevali - after the war, after clearing the Prokhorov field, they could not plow, the tractor skidded, everything was clogged with metal. And now, if you dig deeper than the plowed, everything redder from iron.
  12. jokas
    jokas 23 August 2012 09: 22 New
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    The victory in the Battle of Kursk is the final turning point in the war and the final refusal of Japan to invade the USSR
    1. loc.bejenari
      loc.bejenari 23 August 2012 21: 22 New
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      Yes, Japan in 43 has long been not up to the USSR
      there at that time resource agony had already begun
      and for Germany, yes, this is the last more or less meaningful large-scale offensive
      everything else was already counterattack in hopeless attempts against the advancing and owning enemy
  13. Romeohihnic 23 August 2012 09: 29 New
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    The Wehrmacht lost 30 selected divisions in the Battle of Kursk, including seven tank divisions, more than 500 thousand soldiers and officers, 1,5 thousand tanks, more than 3,7 thousand aircraft, 3 thousand guns. The losses of the Soviet troops exceeded the German ones - they amounted to 863 thousand people, including 254 thousand irretrievable. Near Kursk, the Red Army lost about six thousand tanks.
    1. bamboo
      bamboo 23 August 2012 11: 31 New
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      as it is not clear, the ratio of losses, usually at the moment of admission, is considered 1 to 3 i.e. the advancing ones lose more, and the Germans seemed to be advancing, so they should have suffered more losses, but here, on the contrary, and our tanks, for some reason, are 6000 destroyed and the Germans have only 1500, damn it somehow ...
      can someone explain where such figures came from ???
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 23 August 2012 13: 00 New
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        Well, if you still remember the real story of the battle of Prokhorovka, it’s called the shot of the tank brigade of the Rotmistrov by the Germans who irretrievably lost 70% of the tanks and the field was left to the Germans who evacuated all their wrecked equipment, then you can understand where this ratio comes from
        still - our style of crazy counterattacks - usually in the forehead on machine guns or tanks under PAK 40
        1. Ratibor12
          Ratibor12 23 August 2012 15: 57 New
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          Quote: loc.bejenari
          Well, if you still remember the real story of the battle of Prokhorovka, it’s called the shot of the tank brigade of the Rotmistrov by the Germans who irretrievably lost 70% of the tanks and the field was left to the Germans who evacuated all their wrecked equipment, then you can understand where this ratio comes from
          still - our style of crazy counterattacks - usually in the forehead on machine guns or tanks under PAK 40


          Ha! And your style, it seems, is thoughtlessly quoting Western propaganda with an irrevocable loss of critical thinking and evacuating its shell-shocked logic.
        2. ampere
          ampere 23 August 2012 18: 06 New
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          The officially announced combat losses are approximately the same for us and for the Germans. this is about the suicidal tactics of the Soviet troops.
          1. loc.bejenari
            loc.bejenari 23 August 2012 21: 12 New
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            officially we destroyed 450 of the 90 released ferdinands laughing
            True NFZ, too, amateurs to attribute to themselves
      2. Kibb
        Kibb 23 August 2012 14: 32 New
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        Quote: bambu
        can someone explain where such figures came from ???

        and why is it incomprehensible? Technically, the Germans won, but practically (strategically) lost ... as usual, a Russian soldier took this battle, not overwhelmed with corpses, no, they just won ... but what it cost another question ....
      3. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 23 August 2012 14: 34 New
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        German tanks still excelled Soviet ones in their qualities, plus the Germans were very good at using them! German planes in their qualities also exceeded the Soviet at this stage, again they knew how to use them ...
        I do not know what other army was capable of repelling the strike of such a force in such a limited section of the front!
        1. mamba
          mamba 23 August 2012 22: 11 New
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          If we recall the history of the battles of 41-42 on the Eastern Front, then this is a continuous series of the hardest knockouts for our army. One knockout was enough for Poland and France to not get up anymore. And our fighter, the Red Army, rose every time and, coughing up blood, climbed into the fray again, was again knocked down by a mortal blow, but again got up and fought. How many times have the Germans arranged for us "Stalingrad", and they alone had enough to lose their breath. No army in the world is capable of holding such a blow and fighting in such inhuman conditions, without regard for losses.
          Glory to our grandfathers! Eternal memory to them!
    2. Alexander
      Alexander 23 August 2012 13: 07 New
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      Quote: Romeohihnic
      The Wehrmacht lost 30 selected divisions in the Battle of Kursk, including seven tank divisions, more than 500 thousand soldiers and officers, 1,5 thousand tanks, more than 3,7 thousand aircraft, 3 thousand guns. The losses of the Soviet troops exceeded the German ones - they amounted to 863 thousand people, including 254 thousand irretrievable. Near Kursk, the Red Army lost about six thousand tanks.

      it is more reliable
      1. bamboo
        bamboo 23 August 2012 15: 22 New
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        Thank you all for the explanation !!! thank
        1. darkman70 23 August 2012 23: 17 New
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          The Germans used to underestimate their losses.
    3. valiant
      valiant 28 August 2012 21: 15 New
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      In fact, no more than 12 German tanks and self-propelled guns fought near Prokhorovka on July 311 against 597 Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns. According to Lopukhovsky’s calculations, the irretrievable losses of 2 mt SS and 3 mn July 12 amounted to at least 40 tanks, assault guns and self-propelled guns. The irretrievable losses of the parties in the armored vehicles on July 12 in the battle near Prokhorovka are approximately 6: 1 not in our favor. The ratio of them during the seven-day Prokhorov battle is 5: 1. To smooth out the shock of the huge and tragic losses of the 5th Guards. The army’s editors of the new military encyclopedia determined the enemy’s losses in 360 tanks and assault guns, including here the losses of the 48th enemy’s tactical formations, which were not involved in the battles on the prokhorov line. Thus, they slightly corrected the number 400 indicated by Soviet historians ... Rotmistrov’s tank army was intended to launch a counterattack at a time when the enemy was completely exhausted. These documents are still classified and are not subject to publication in the open press. Why are materials hiding on the Voronezh front, why not declassifying? This means that the conclusions of the commission do not correspond to the myths and legends that were intensively introduced by the Soviet agitation prop. But the main conclusion of the commission is known: the fighting 5 Guards. TA on July 12, 1943 near Prokhorovka, she called "a model of an unsuccessful operation." Still would! It is enough to compare the ratio of casualties in people on the southern front of the Kursk ledge - 4: 1 and on the north - 1,5: 1 (according to official data) and 2,8: 1 (according to actual loss) in favor of the enemy. It is high time to tell the people the truth at what cost the victory was won, including the victory at Kursk.
  14. Svistoplyaskov
    Svistoplyaskov 23 August 2012 09: 30 New
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    Monument symbolizing a tank ram. The symbol of the Battle of Prokhorov is the exploit of the tanker Nikolaev, who made a ram on his wounded and burning T-34ka, saving the wounded tank commander.
    1. Roman Dmitriev 23 August 2012 10: 20 New
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      Nikolaev and Skripkin are my fellow countrymen. Eternal Memory of the lost and Eternal Glory of the living. It is a pity that they are less and less.
  15. sanyabasik 23 August 2012 09: 57 New
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    The war is not over until the last soldier is buried ..
    In the Kursk land lie thousands of fighters of the Red Army. And many thanks to the guys from the search squads who excavate every summer, raise the remains and bury in mass graves, giving the last honors to the fallen.
    In the 99th took part in the reburial of Soviet soldiers. Search guys raised then about 400! 4 Red Army men were identified by surviving medallions.
    All my life I will remember the tears of the old widows, no myths will convince me who won the War and at what a terrible price.
  16. Dictator1412
    Dictator1412 23 August 2012 10: 14 New
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    erased. And here the myth of the great tank battle is mentioned. After all, studies have long been published where all the days of the Kursk battle are precisely and hourly painted. No counter battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34. It was a pity that the author did not bother to look at the documents.

    I constantly say that we are losing youth! Here is a striking example of brainwashing and replacing ideals. About the fact that the Soviet Union was preparing to attack Germany with foam at the mouth prove bastards and scum Rezun and other traitors! I don’t understand why they are still alive!
  17. Forget 23 August 2012 10: 23 New
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    Glory to the Soviet people! Thanks to our ancestors!
  18. Ratibor 23 August 2012 10: 44 New
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    GLORY! Our Great Ancestors! HOORAY! HOORAY! HOORAY!
  19. Manager 23 August 2012 11: 02 New
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    Guys! Men! Spit everything on STERA. My grandfather Vasily Bolovintsev was a tanker! At the age of 19 he already commanded several tanks. And he took part in the Kursk and remained alive. I have no reason not to believe my grandfather’s hero! Let all the authors who were not there eat their scribbles and I would love to make them personally gobble everything they wrote!
    As I remember now, Grandfather said - Thousands of monsters from metal. Fire, dust and smoke. But there was no fear! It was only the zeal to destroy as many German tanks as possible. It was hell. And we won.!
    Glory to the Great Victory! Glory to the heroes ! And shame and disgrace to Stur and the Authors that they wrote such vileness!
    1. hohryakov066 23 August 2012 14: 40 New
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      My grandfather went through this battle. So many of our tankers died there that until his death he said that he lived on loan! He, having fought the whole war, could not speak calmly about this! And then the writers got out - there was nothing! So, slack hit! I believe my grandfather, I believe veterans with whom I spoke personally, I saw photographs and documents in the museum of the Ural Volunteer Tank Corps. The fight there was terrible. God forbid such a thing to forget. It’s disgusting to slander heroes!
  20. 8 company
    8 company 23 August 2012 11: 04 New
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    This is what properly trained, experienced staff means. In any case, not only in war. The Germans calmly prepared a giant trap, ground their shock units in it and launched an offensive along the entire front right up to the Dnieper. What a huge difference compared to 1941, just heaven and earth!
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 23 August 2012 14: 37 New
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      Not a very good trap, it should be noted!
      The Germans from the south almost reached the operational space and only unparalleled courage and heroism, accompanied, unfortunately, by huge losses, allowed the Germans to be stopped!
    2. Kars 23 August 2012 15: 08 New
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      Experience gained by blood.
  21. Dictator1412
    Dictator1412 23 August 2012 11: 11 New
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    Manager Guys! Men! Spit everything on STERA.
    You can’t spit! This is our youth and WE are responsible for it! It is necessary to explain to the younger generation that that war was to exterminate the Russians as a nation by the Nazis and their hangers-on, and not to save ordinary Ryan!
  22. red 015
    red 015 23 August 2012 11: 36 New
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    GLORY TO THE SOVIET RELEASER SOLDIER !!!
  23. Yuri11076 23 August 2012 11: 39 New
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    Glory to the wars of the Red Army, your feat will live on for centuries ...
  24. Dimka off 23 August 2012 12: 35 New
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    Eternal memory to the defenders of our country!
    I’m lucky, I have a birthday on such a great day))
    1. bamboo
      bamboo 23 August 2012 15: 23 New
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      happy Birthday!!!!!!! drinks
      1. Dimka off 23 August 2012 17: 00 New
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        Thank you so much))
  25. ESCANDER
    ESCANDER 23 August 2012 12: 51 New
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    Guys! What is the bazaar about!
    Here I am holding the book “Assault guns forward!” “Sturmgeschutz” in battle. ”Franz Kurovski (as indicated - full documentary research). Bought in St. Petersburg! translation from English 2011 of the publishing house “Yauza-Press. Moscow".
    It says so - in 1945 (!) “A battery of assault guns repelled the 2 waves of the Soviet offensive during the day, destroying the 300 T-34 and IS-2 tanks with infantry, under fire from enemy heavy artillery and rocket mortars (" Katyusha "), after which, WITHOUT LOSS, she left the battle" ...
    So here we are Russians - worthless warriors.
    Comments needed?
    1. Alexander
      Alexander 23 August 2012 13: 12 New
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      In Russia, losses were never considered. And in 1945 they were exhausted, and the command wanted to take Berlin faster
    2. Gazprom
      Gazprom 23 August 2012 13: 25 New
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      ESCANDER
      Well, in general, Kurovsky is a good researcher, but like many researchers, he is one-sided, often takes only German docks. Probably found someone's report
      Therefore, we must take this episode from him and the same one from Isaev, for example, as a result, in the middle, the truth will come out - that not the battery but the battery’s floor, not 2 waves but 1 attack, did not repel and received on the head, not 300 but 3, losing 4 sau.
      Well, it’s inherent to both our Germans and Americans, the number Pi.
      it's time to get used to it already
    3. eJik
      eJik 23 August 2012 19: 40 New
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      ahah .. just the whole tank army was ground
      probably “captain america” fought there with his team
      1. mamba
        mamba 23 August 2012 22: 23 New
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        The statistics for calculating their victories was very peculiar among the Germans. For example, a dozen Messers shot down two enemy aircraft in an air battle. And each pilot was credited with two downed aircraft. Go and see who really hit them in the group. So it turns out that in this battle, the valiant Luftwaffe aces shot down not just two planes, but two squadrons. Hence the hundreds of victories for these aces. And our Pokryshkin and Kozhedub counted only those victories that were objectively confirmed. Therefore, they have 60 and 62 victories. And after six decades, we argue about the statistics of losses.
    4. Bigriver 24 August 2012 05: 52 New
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      Kamrad Kurovski from the homeland of Munchausen :))))
      The Artsturm battery is 1,5 .., let there be two kilometers of the front.
      Our density on the offensive is usually a brigade per kilometer. Let there be two brigades against one battery. These are about 100 tanks, against 7 self-propelled guns.
      Our second wave is the third brigade (about 50 tanks).
      ISy is an amplification in the form of one TTP (21 cars). Well, let there be a hull reinforcement in the form of one SAP (another 21 cars). More than 200 cars against the Sturmov battery, at the front 2 km in no way is typed.
  26. Recon 23 August 2012 12: 55 New
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    My grandfather died in this battle, was the commander of the PT guns. Eternal Glory to the Soviet soldiers!

    My grandfather died in this battle, was the commander of the PT guns. Eternal Glory to the Soviet soldiers!
  27. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 13: 35 New
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    One believes that the truth was written only in the 60s,
    another is afraid that the researcher born in 1974, the minimum is insignificant,
    the third knows only amers documents.

    It seems that no one has read Zamulin (oh Bzhe mine, he is 69 years old, what can he write, but Solzhenitsyn is not to nights will be remembered surely knows Pravda, he saw the war, huh), Lopukhovskiy, Tomzov, Isaev, Yents and other modern researchers, those who work not with Soviet, British, German agitation, but with Documents of all parties.
    I don’t understand how to do modern research on the war without looking at German, British, Soviet documents, looking at the strength of the parties, losing the sides, not taking the primary, reports, KTV, panzerlage, etc., how can I write something without spending a lot of time in archives, although yes, they are closed, the Germans are lying, and the Americans are fools.

    Before arguing, setting minuses in anger would have read at least one of the above. would find other sources, would look at maps, would hit the road to the Museums and there would look what and how, etc., Internet "patriots" "you are ours
    1. ESCANDER
      ESCANDER 23 August 2012 14: 03 New
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      Gazprom - you think this book is “somewhat one-sided”, right? And Kurovsky is a good researcher, of course. And he explores - well, a little confused (well, never mind, really) ...
      It is one thing to read comprehensive research and another to fight there, or elementary to be a military man.
      As a tanker, I can tell you that this episode is impossible in principle, unless, of course, the one who wrote it (it doesn’t matter Kurovsky or the author of German docks) has a sick imagination.
      And there is first-hand info on Kursk (my grandfather lost a foot there).
      So, with all due respect - “the third only knows Amer’s documents”, this is not to my age. I gave an example of a concrete desa that is freely sold in our northern capital (try publishing and selling something similar in America).
    2. Kars 23 August 2012 14: 09 New
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      Quote: Gazprom
      the Germans are lying

      In fact, the German side irretrievably lost 44 units of BTT. It is not entirely clear to me what it means in fact. On repeated examples, we saw how the German side understated its losses and deducted them retroactively, like the 4, 19, and TD GG. I do not really believe the official German full loss reports. Very often, vehicles under the so-called long-term repair (and actually wrecked tanks towed to the rear) never returned to duty. I have much more faith in accounting for the losses of the Soviet side.
      1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 28 New
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        Unfortunately, the Germans had a very good evacuation and repair of equipment. I hope it is no secret that very often having spent ammunition or having exhausted fuel, the equipment was simply thrown.
    3. Tourist Breakfast 23 August 2012 14: 16 New
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      What does the listed researchers have to do with it? Neither Zamulin nor Isaev wrote anything in style:

      "No oncoming battles of the tank masses, no local collisions in the style of the Tigers against the T-34."


      This statement is entirely on the conscience of the author of the first comment.
      1. Gazprom
        Gazprom 23 August 2012 15: 39 New
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        I would also like to know where he got it from
  28. afire 23 August 2012 14: 19 New
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    Eternal Glory to the Heroes
  29. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 23 August 2012 14: 43 New
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    In fairness, it should be noted that it is the version of the battle near Prokhorovka in the style of the Ozerov epic "Liberation" that is just a myth!
    This was not so in reality, and with the slightest desire it is easy to find out using memoirs and post-war studies ...
    But the battles were fierce and the glories of Soviet weapons the debunking of this myth does not detract in the least!
  30. Deniska999 23 August 2012 15: 19 New
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    Glory to the Red Army! Glory to the USSR! Glory to all our fighters!
  31. Ratibor12
    Ratibor12 23 August 2012 15: 22 New
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    Deputy Head of the Operations Division of the 5th Tank Army I.A. Dakukin: “Everything merged into a continuous hum and roar. The battle was on the ground and in the air. Hitler’s or our burning planes fell from a height, several enemy planes exploded over the battlefield, shreds of duralumin, like huge wounded birds, fell to the ground. Wheat caught fire. Acrid suffocating smoke penetrated into the tanks, tweaked eyes to tears, and choked. The sun faded, clouds of smoke and dust covered him. The battle formations of both sides were mixed. There was a roar above the field and the rattle of tanks colliding head-on-head ”

    “Straight at us, swinging long gun trunks, huge monsters with black crosses were moving. We got along with our tanks, spun, spun. They set fire to and rammed each other. Smoke, flame, roar, rattle. Soon the whole space was clouded with smoke. It smelled of burnt metal, fuel oil, fried human meat. This is not a dream in a nightmare. " (R.G. Mavlyutov, senior lieutenant)

    “From the explosions of bombs, shells, mines, from burning tanks and human bodies, such stench and soot rose that everything around turned into hell. Five battery commanders, as well as 50 percent of the regiment’s personnel, died in that battle. ” (M.L. Vovkogon, commander of a fire platoon)

    “That was the worst day. Day, which turned into night, and the earth connected with the sky. 60 cars of Colonel Tarasov rushed that morning on the Prokhorovskoye field, and each and every one, led by the commander, burned down in the oncoming battle. ” (A.I. Illarionov, commander of a tank platoon)

    "... At full speed, the tank of Petty Officer Pyotr Naydenov rushed to the enemy battery, crushed four guns and three mortars. A heavy blow shook the tank. The shell hit the frontal armor. Naydenov felt pain in his eyes and lost control for a moment. The mechanic himself was not yet aware that he was blind, drove the car, obeying training, a furious will to win. The crew commander Shurygin, realizing the comrade’s misfortune, helped him navigate with his teams. For an hour the tank, driven by a blind driver, still fought with the enemy. "

    As a result of the failure of the Citadel offensive, we suffered a decisive defeat. The armored forces, replenished with such great difficulty, were incapacitated for a long time due to large losses in people and equipment. Their timely restoration for conducting defensive operations on the Eastern Front, .... .... was called into question. Needless to say, the Russians hastened to use their success. And there were no longer calm days on the Eastern Front. The initiative completely passed to the enemy. (Guderian G. Memoirs of a Soldier, M .; Military Publishing House, 1954. Page 431.)

    “Remember, friends, July 12, 1943, remember this day and this is a place called Prokhorovka. Here, for the first time in the whole war, summer became truly ours, ”(5th Guards Tank Commander Pavel Alekseevich Rotmistrov).
  32. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 15: 25 New
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    Eskander.
    Sarcasm is understandable, but Kurovsky didn’t confuse anything, most often it is based on documents, it means there is a German dock, so I’ll have to take ours and check it, without it our argument is empty.

    About experience and tanks, here is an example of Katukov according to Mtsensky who fought alone against 500 tanks and against the same to so on. But do you probably believe that? This is Katukov, is he doing well? There is a person who put this issue on the shelves and took the docks, memoirs, reports and, as a result, recently released work

    In the last paragraph, it was not for you. Do not take to your account. At the expense of the des-des, this is Rezun, and these are the German docks, in Kurovsky’s retelling, I repeat, they must be examined by other docks, and not discarded. Take care, I will give you advice to whom to contact here, who has a good archive. Prove that the Germans are wrong.
    1. Kars 23 August 2012 15: 46 New
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      Quote: Gazprom
      Kurovsky was not confused, most often it is based on documents, it means there is a German dock, so I’ll repeat it is necessary to take ours and check, without this our argument is an empty matter


      They took and compared the same Baryatinsky in the Tank Aces of Germany and German tanks in the Battle.
      1. Gazprom
        Gazprom 23 August 2012 15: 57 New
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        That's right, this should be the approach- quoting Kurovsky .... writes that ....., however Baryatinsky citing documents ..... says that ...., in conclusion, we can say that ...
        1. Kars 23 August 2012 16: 17 New
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          But how many do you want?
          Give a similar analysis from Germany?
          Who would you recommend reading with a monograph that meets your requirements?

          But the odbits from 300 tanks in 1945, under Katyusha fire --- and lossless --- it's just a fairy tale.
          I was reading something about Grosdeychland’s biographies alongside their alleged loss of information about the presence of tanks in the Red Army. I didn’t find the T-70 in the knocked out German tank asss.
          So, for example, all the data on the combat activity of the top ten German ace tankers are taken from the so-called descriptions of the combat path of heavy tank battalions, and simply from combat magazines. With all the external solidity of these publications, their content, especially with careful study and comparison of facts, sometimes begins to cause bewilderment, to say the least. What, say, is a record like: “In 12 hours, three“ tigers ”of such and such a platoon from a distance of 2000 m destroyed 19 T-34 tanks.” At the same time, a little earlier, in a summary of the meteorological conditions of the day it was reported: "Snowstorm." Here are those on, it’s they who blown 2000 tanks in a blizzard from a distance of 19 m, and did they determine the type exactly? But the laser sight wouldn’t help here! Or maybe it was not the “thirty-four” at all, but the T-70? And not 19, but nine? And not with 2000 m? Yes, and not destroyed, but just fired? Moreover, the case was under the Rostov winter of the 1943 of the year, the Germans defended themselves and the battlefield remained with our troops. So to clarify what kind of tanks they were, how much and what damage they suffered, the Germans could not. Nevertheless, a confident record of victory was made in the journal of military operations!

    2. werewolf 23 August 2012 22: 07 New
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      That's because after the Second World War documents of the time of the Second World War were completely classified for 30 years i.e. until 1975, but in 1975 for some reason (and this brings certain thoughts to certain citizens) they were repeatedly and seemingly not very lawfully classified for another 30 years. This period ended in 2005, after which the work “The secrecy stamp has been removed” was issued but .... it was removed from a small part of the documents. In fact, not one special can fully use our docks .... That's why Germans, Amers, English, and even Polish are taken as the basis! ..... but not Russian !!!!
  33. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 16: 34 New
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    Little .
    A normal attitude to history without the phrases "nonsense", "fantasy", "fairy tale" and so on, any statements of the enemy must be refuted by documents, and not by Google throws.
    1. Kars 23 August 2012 16: 38 New
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      Quote: Gazprom
      any statements of the enemy must be refuted by documents

      simply put, you jump ---- show me a document on which Kurovsky made his description about 300 tanks, which would be something to refute.
      And then I'm sorry this is the most ungrateful thing to prove that it is not a camel.
      1. Kars 23 August 2012 16: 44 New
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        Here is a more or less standard monograph.
        1. Kars 23 August 2012 16: 45 New
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          Where are there any supporting documents, did they knock out 12 or didn’t knock out anything? And where are the documents from our side in this monograph?
      2. Gazprom
        Gazprom 23 August 2012 17: 04 New
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        and dofiga do you want?
        first quote Kurovsky, and then I will answer.
        1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 18 New
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          And who is Kurovsky ....
          1. Gazprom
            Gazprom 23 August 2012 17: 28 New
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            Google prevention?
            Is Franz Kurovski banned in the search?
        2. Kars 23 August 2012 17: 18 New
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          Quote: Gazprom
          and dofiga do you want?

          Little .
          A normal attitude to history without the phrases "nonsense", "fantasy", "fairy tale" and so on, any statements of the enemy must be refuted by documents, and not by Google throws.


          A quote from Kurovsky
          Quote: ESCANDER
          Guys! What is the bazaar about!
          Here I am holding the book “Assault guns forward!” “Sturmgeschutz” in battle. ”Franz Kurovski (as indicated - full documentary research). Bought in St. Petersburg! translation from English 2011 of the publishing house “Yauza-Press. Moscow".
          It says so - in 1945 (!) “A battery of assault guns repelled the 2 waves of the Soviet offensive during the day, destroying the 300 T-34 and IS-2 tanks with infantry, under fire from enemy heavy artillery and rocket mortars (" Katyusha "), after which, WITHOUT LOSS, she left the battle" ...


          I personally do not have it, unfortunately, so I use it.
          1. Gazprom
            Gazprom 23 August 2012 17: 25 New
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            Kars, the English version of the book, in order to know for sure that it’s not Krivoruchki translated.
            And then we discuss. Is going?
            minimum photo from the book of Exander.
            1. Kars 23 August 2012 17: 31 New
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              Quote: Gazprom
              Kars, the English version of the book, in order to know for sure that it’s not Krivoruchki translated

              Well, find and poke my nose, and all questions will disappear.
  34. Kars 23 August 2012 16: 47 New
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    You say a normal attitude to history? How did they calculate the losses of the USSR since they give them? According to what documents?

    And I look forward to hearing from you or naming a monograph that meets your requirements, with confirmations.
    1. Gazprom
      Gazprom 23 August 2012 17: 07 New
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      I expect from you Kurovsky, whom you are trying to refute without even reading.
      1. Kars 23 August 2012 17: 20 New
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        But this is weak? We lost half of the initial composition, the Germans one seventh. And we stopped the battle being in a much better position than before the battle.
      2. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 20 New
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        Give a link, it's interesting to see.
      3. Kars 23 August 2012 17: 26 New
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        There is a Kurovsky
        An hour later, the Russian offensive began. The first enemy tanks appeared on the field in front of the leading edge. The battle began, and during its course the Panther crews demonstrated their skills - they knocked out a total of 11 enemy tanks and destroyed 7 anti-tank guns. Two tanks and one gun accounted for Zimmermann's personal account.

        With the onset of darkness, the enemy bypassed the central group of 10 Zimmermann tanks. Colonel Gressel ordered a retreat. The tanks, firing, withdrew, while ensuring the retreat of motorized infantry, which almost did not suffer any losses. Tanks and motorized infantry entrenched at the border of Kopenieki - Pilskalni. Here they spent several days and nights full of dangers.

        The fighting in the area continued until October 15. From the first day of fighting, the 14-I Panzer Division destroyed a total of more than 100 enemy tanks and armored personnel carriers. Colonel Oscar Munzel was awarded the Knight's Cross.

        On October 25, the first battle in Courland began. A few days later the infantry was forced to retreat. Reflecting the Russian offensive on November 29, the Zimmermann tanks operated together with the 510 mth heavy tank battalion and threw the enemy back.

        In this battle, the Panther entered into a duel with the IS-2 Russian tank. This armored colossus (the same weight as the Panther, - 46 tons. - Ed.) Received an 75-mm projectile from the Panther’s long-barrel gun, which fell between the turret and the hull. The next one hit the stern, from which the flame immediately burst forth. Soon it embraced the entire tank. Managed to hit several enemy vehicles and the platoon commander.

        The Tigers came to the scene of the battle and opened fire from a distance of 1800 meters. Soon, all the remaining IS-2 motionlessly froze on the battlefield, emitting puffs of black smoke.
        The advance of the Russian guard units with the support of heavy artillery and rocket mortars crushed infantry units. However, the Russians failed to break through the front. On 15 of November, Major Molinari was also marked with the Knight's Cross. Until November 28 1944, the regiment destroyed 68 enemy tanks, including 20 IS-2 vehicles.

        http://lib.rus.ec/b/267057/read
        Is it normal Is-2 with 1800 meters? And not unexpectedly, but in a long battle.
        1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 34 New
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          I guess that Kuruvsky Pole, then it is clear.
  35. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 12 New
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    As regards casualties, only Germans always consider, although it is known that from the first day of the war, both Romanians and Italians fought on their side ... yes, they are all EUROPE. Let's add. These will be real numbers, and not in favor of the axis countries .
  36. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 17: 22 New
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    Kars
    requirements, please
    Schekotikhin E. E. The Battle of Oryol - two years: facts, statistics, analysis. In 2 kn. - Eagle: Publisher Vorobyov.

    Karasev V.S., Rybakov S.S. Rogachevsky site. 2011.


    Isaev and Zamulin were already called
    1. Kars 23 August 2012 19: 48 New
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      Quote: Gazprom
      requirements, please

      I read Isaev.
      But where do they go to Kurovsky?
  37. Monarchist
    Monarchist 23 August 2012 17: 45 New
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    Gentlemen, comrades, it’s convenient for us to quit drinking smoking, we are preparing for the last battle, soon in 12 or 2018, the winner writes the return to the Russian Empire from Brest in France to Chukotka. Glory to the Russian and other peoples of the empire. Ura. Ura. Ura
  38. ahtung: partizan
    ahtung: partizan 23 August 2012 17: 45 New
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    The Soviet soldier felt the taste of victory at Stalingrad after a year and a half of bitterness of defeat and he could no longer be stopped before Berlin.
  39. Aleks28 23 August 2012 17: 53 New
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    Quote: Allex28
    In this battle, the Panther entered into a duel with the IS-2 Russian tank. This armored colossus (the same weight as the Panther, - 46 tons. - Ed.) Received an 75-mm projectile from the Panther’s long-barrel gun, which fell between the turret and the hull. The next one hit the stern, from which the flame immediately burst forth. Soon it embraced the entire tank. Managed to hit several enemy vehicles and the platoon commander.

    Is2 diesel, + WWII ammunition, or an explosion, or breakdown, or rebound, but not any flame.
  40. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 18: 00 New
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    Alex, what diesel doesn’t burn in your opinion?
    1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 18: 03 New
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      Physics for 4th grade. DETONES. OH lied to grade 6
      1. Tourist Breakfast 23 August 2012 19: 50 New
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        Are you seriously? T-34 is also off, so?
        Veterans in their memoirs claim the opposite.
        1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 22: 54 New
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          Kill the tank and set it on fire: these are two different concepts (Molotov cocktail and shell), the T34 burns, but not all. Because of the lack of diesel engines they put PS gas: This is the first diesel tank in the world.
          1. Tourist Breakfast 24 August 2012 00: 30 New
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            Diesel fuel burns just like gasoline from ingots. Or do you think the German anti-aircraft guns, which account for the lion's share of the destroyed Soviet tanks, fired Molotov cocktails?
            Read at least the memories of veterans from Drabkin.
      2. igordok 23 August 2012 22: 25 New
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        Not physics, but chemistry. The fuel tank explodes (detonates) when almost no fuel remains in the fuel tank (gasoline or diesel fuel, there is not much difference). The correct ratio of fuel vapor to oxygen is required.

        When a projectile hits, a large amount of energy will be released (and this is physics), enough to ignite not only diesel fuel, but also fuel oil.
        1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 22: 56 New
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          High explosive, but not armor-piercing .....
          1. Kars 23 August 2012 23: 59 New
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            A high-explosive shell usually doesn’t penetrate armor, and explosions of semi-empty tanks are not uncommon in diesel engines. And kinetic ammunition has enough energy. There is nothing unusual in the fact that the IS burned up from a defeat in the stern. --This was recommended in a head-on collision. From other angles at a distance of 1200-1500, the panther's sub-caliber on the tables (German mime) pierced the IS-2 armor (actually 1000-1200)
            So the IP was forehead to the panther (getting into the joint is a rarity), then how did it get into the stern with the second shot?
            Also, shelling the IS-2 with tigers from 1800 meters achieved the destruction of the IS and the Tigers did not receive any losses. How can this be? Especially considering what angles of meeting at such a distance that even normalization will not help --- in this case 122 mm BR IS-2 (that is even a land mine) it was almost guaranteed to incapacitate a tiger --- if there was no rebound.
  41. Aleks28 23 August 2012 18: 15 New
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    Franz Kurovski (born November 17, 1923, died May 28, 2011) is a German writer. During the Second World War he served in the African Corps. The author of numerous works on the theme of World War II. Well, everything is clear

    For the sake of reconciliation. HISTORY here everything is very complicated recourse
    1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 18: 22 New
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      ideology, everything is clear .............
  42. JonnyT 23 August 2012 19: 17 New
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    No matter how the enemies try to distort the story, the truth is still ours! Enemies are trying all the time to impose on us that we are savages not capable of anything, we need to more actively conduct educational work among the most suggestible layer of our citizens - youth, and then no liars can inspire doubts in our hearts. The result is one - this is our victory, which was given to us with great blood, suffering, mass heroism !!!!!! My great-grandfather went through the war, one day he told me what he saw: "About dead children, whose bodies lay to the top in wells, about how wounded soldiers tied an anti-tank mine to their backs and crawled under the tracks of German tanks, about a huge number of bombs, rained down on their position ....... I believe my great-grandfather, my ancestors, and not foreign X ,,,,, Yu, who didn’t smell gunpowder !!!!!!!!! GLORY TO HEROES, ETERNAL MEMORY !!!!!!!!!!
    1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 19: 48 New
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      Everything is correct, only without emotion. The WINNER asserts, not proves.
      1. mamba
        mamba 23 August 2012 22: 49 New
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        That is why we are forced to prove one thing, then another, then the third, in order to deprive us of our Great victory in that terrible war.
        1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 23: 25 New
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          So you think I'm wrong
  43. AK-74-1 23 August 2012 19: 48 New
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    With the next day of MILITARY GLORY of all respected commentators! This battle is very clearly presented in Ozerov's film "Liberation".
    Eternal memory to our ancestors. GLORY TO THE SOLDIER OF THE WINNER!
    1. Aleks28 23 August 2012 19: 56 New
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      THANKS. GLORY TO THE FAVORITE.
  44. andrei332809 23 August 2012 22: 15 New
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    Eternal Glory to the war veterans.
    And Eternal Glory to women and children who worked in the rear without rest
  45. harrymur 23 August 2012 22: 17 New
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    KURSK ARC - two words, a great victory behind them, in our north during the war the soldiers went to the front knowing that if they retreat they will not return to where the Germans didn’t conquer or occupy, but clean the territory, they’re alive they didn’t plan to leave, cleanliness and order, the veterans say so, WE KNEW THAT EVERYTHING IS DEATH, THE GERMANS WERE THROUGH THE TERRITORY, THERE WERE NOT PLANNED TO LEAVE ANYONE IN LIVING, ours didn’t let the orcs go, the only front where the Germans are in some areas never crossed the border of the ussr
  46. Eldar 23 August 2012 22: 32 New
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    This eraser waited for the article ..., threw a provocative comment ... and into the bushes)
    Now, probably, the report is being written to the American owners. Handles rubs in anticipation of denyuzhki through Webmoney :)
    The main thing for him in a hat is to unsubscribe apparently. IMHO.
  47. SSR
    SSR 23 August 2012 22: 50 New
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    Quote: erased
    Catch. Isaev A.V. "From the tragedy of Kharkov to the Kursk breakthrough." Veche, 2009 Lopukhovskiy L.N. "Prokhorovka without signature stamp". Eksmo 2005.

    still agreed on rezun ... ugh.

    Quote: Gazprom
    Karstrebovaniya- ask for Shchekotikhin E. E. The Battle of Oryol - two years: facts, statistics, analysis. In 2 kn. - Eagle: Publisher Vorobyov. Karasev V.S., Rybakov S.S. Rogachevsky site. 2011. Isaev and Zamulin were already called

    Quote: Gazprom
    Kars, the English version of the book, in order to know for sure that it wasn’t that Krivoruchki translated. And then we are discussing. Is there a minimum photo from the book of Exander.

    The coolest thing is that troll bass operates with shniki from a long dollar .. like facts! Svanidze 2010 ... facts ... Nidze 2011 ...
    USA .. save Ryan .. call of duty duty battle of Alamein and so on ...
    ugh ..
  48. Gazprom
    Gazprom 23 August 2012 23: 18 New
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    Kars, as always Julim?
    .... Gazprom requirements, I ask Isaev to read. But where do they go to Kurovsky? ....


    Kars, where is Kurovsky?

    "Who would you recommend reading with a monograph that meets your requirements?"

    "I look forward to hearing from you or naming a monograph that meets your requirements,"
    1. Kars 24 August 2012 18: 53 New
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      Quote: Gazprom
      Kars, as always Julim?

      Why Julia?
      Quote: Gazprom
      Kars, where is Kurovsky?

      We open our eyes and read
      Quote: Kars
      http://lib.rus.ec/b/267057/read

      Quote: Kars
      An hour later, the Russian offensive began. The first enemy tanks appeared on the field in front of the leading edge. The battle began, and during its course the Panther crews demonstrated their skills - they knocked out a total of 11 enemy tanks and destroyed 7 anti-tank guns. Two tanks and one gun accounted for Zimmermann's personal account.

      With the onset of darkness, the enemy bypassed the central group of 10 Zimmermann tanks. Colonel Gressel ordered a retreat. The tanks, firing, withdrew, while ensuring the retreat of motorized infantry, which almost did not suffer any losses. Tanks and motorized infantry entrenched at the border of Kopenieki - Pilskalni. Here they spent several days and nights full of dangers.

      The fighting in the area continued until October 15. From the first day of fighting, the 14-I Panzer Division destroyed a total of more than 100 enemy tanks and armored personnel carriers. Colonel Oscar Munzel was awarded the Knight's Cross.

      On October 25, the first battle in Courland began. A few days later the infantry was forced to retreat. Reflecting the Russian offensive on November 29, the Zimmermann tanks operated together with the 510 mth heavy tank battalion and threw the enemy back.

      In this battle, the Panther entered into a duel with the IS-2 Russian tank. This armored colossus (the same weight as the Panther, - 46 tons. - Ed.) Received an 75-mm projectile from the Panther’s long-barrel gun, which fell between the turret and the hull. The next one hit the stern, from which the flame immediately burst forth. Soon it embraced the entire tank. Managed to hit several enemy vehicles and the platoon commander.

      The Tigers came to the scene of the battle and opened fire from a distance of 1800 meters. Soon, all the remaining IS-2 motionlessly froze on the battlefield, emitting puffs of black smoke.
      The advance of the Russian guard units with the support of heavy artillery and rocket mortars crushed infantry units. However, the Russians failed to break through the front. On 15 of November, Major Molinari was also marked with the Knight's Cross. Until November 28 1944, the regiment destroyed 68 enemy tanks, including 20 IS-2 vehicles.
      1. Kars 24 August 2012 18: 54 New
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        Quote: Gazprom
        "I look forward to hearing from you or naming a monograph that meets your requirements,"

        Isaev incidentally does not meet your requirements.
        Quote: Gazprom
        That's right, this should be the approach- quoting Kurovsky .... writes that ....., however Baryatinsky citing documents ..... says that ...., in conclusion, we can say that ...

        Quote: Gazprom
        I expect from you Kurovsky, whom you climb to refute without even reading

        And what concrete phrase is not enough? And how did you see the video that brought Kurovsky whom I read as well as the 500 tank attacks.
  49. Ivan Tarasov 23 August 2012 23: 30 New
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    It is sincerely a pity that so far, historians have not collected detailed (with dates and location) photos and newsreels, of each division (on both sides) that took part in this great battle.
  50. Bigriver 24 August 2012 06: 04 New
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    And I sincerely regret that the Khrushchov-Rotmistrovskaya interpretation of the Battle of Kursk dominates in our country.
    The first comrade was PMC at Vatutin, and the second commanded 5gv TA at Prokhorovka. And both wrote the history of the Second World War in the 60s.
    Katukov in the Oboyan direction was chopped off for a week, and his 1TA did not fail in hours, like Rotmistrov.
    And if Kempf completed the task on the right flank, Rotmistrov would be rolled to zero.
    Hero, damn it ...
    1. Trapperxnumx 24 August 2012 09: 53 New
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      Bigriver,
      Well, it’s not in vain that after Prokhorovka Rotmistrov was not given to the tribunal ...
    2. Ivan Tarasov 24 August 2012 16: 51 New
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      3 TC Wehrmacht, was so exhausted that, leaving the Rust, in the battalions there were 40-50 active bayonets. There could be no talk of any further offensive, even a private operation could not be completed, not to break into the operational space (near the village of Shakhovo, the Germans could not slam into the 48SK bag).
      Initially, the operation "Citadel" was the largest scam, since the strike groups in both directions did not have overwhelming superiority.
      .