The development of drones working in the "swarm" has begun in the interests of the Russian Aerospace Forces

The Kronstadt company has initiated the development of the Molniya multipurpose unmanned complex in the interests of the Russian Aerospace Forces. It is reported by RIA News with reference to a source in the DIC.

"Lightning" is a complex drones group application, the devices of which will be launched in a "swarm" from a carrier aircraft. At present, the development company has already prepared a preliminary design, a model of a jet drone from the complex was demonstrated to Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu during a visit to the Kronstadt company.

Unmanned aerial vehicles of this system will be launched by a flock from a carrier aircraft, for example, to break through enemy air defense or conduct group electronic warfare in conjunction with manned aircraft. It is also supposed to use the apparatus of the complex as separate high-precision guided munitions or reconnaissance target designators

- said the source.

Development work on the project should begin in the near future, preliminary performance characteristics of unmanned aerial vehicles for the complex have already been determined, but can be adjusted. The complex will be based on drones made in the form of a cruise missile - an elongated fuselage, a jet engine and a folding wing.

(...) one apparatus of the system will have a length of 1,5 meters and a wing span of up to 1,2 meters. The speed of the vehicle equipped with a turbojet engine is declared at the level of 600-700 kilometers per hour, the estimated mass of the warhead or payload is about five to seven kilograms. The range of the drone will be several hundred kilometers

- leads news source word agency.

The use of the complex is planned from various types of VKS aircraft, both from the external suspension and from the internal compartments. It is specified that the Su-57 can carry up to 8 drones in the intra-fuselage compartment, and the Hunter can also be the carrier of the "Lightning".

Comments

[Thrifty]

I remember our Defense Ministry, and the special services were shouting about the secrecy regime for defense programs, and development, and here it remains only to lay out the drawings for free access! !!

[seregatara1969]

And FSE is in the interests of the videoconferencing. Russia's interests do not coincide? It was strange how they began to write, much did not become clear

[Cowbra]

It’s just understandable. A fundamentally different scheme of application - "kamikaze" ammunition plus coordination systems. Purpose - electronic warfare and a breakthrough with the destruction of air defense. This is what expensive stealth products in the United States are unsuccessfully sawing.
An asymmetric response - aimed against a technically equipped enemy, which is logical, not equipped with developed air defense - you can also hammer with Hephaestus bombers. A very logical concept, I note, at times more meaningful than stealth and sharpening swarms to work on enemy manpower, which is expensive and pointless. But it is advancing in the west - and ours just realized that this is a dead end

[Destiny]

Yes, many countries are already developing a UAV Swarm tactic, allowing the simultaneous use of a large number of reconnaissance and reconnaissance-strike drones. American vehicles, each weighing only 290 grams, were launched by F / A-18 fighter-bombers Super Hornet, the standard configuration of the Chinese Norinko drones are equipped with two guided Chinese Blue Arrow 5 or Blue Arrow 7 missiles with a cumulative or high-explosive fragmentation warhead, 40-mm automatic grenade launchers of the LG5A type, three parachute ammunition with a cumulative warhead or two missiles of the "air-to-air" class. Such a combat "swarm" can operate within a radius of 30 km, the time spent in the air is one hour. It is urgent to catch up with "friends and comrades."

[aybolyt678]

Quote: Destiny

290 grams

??

Quote: Destiny

As standard, the drones are equipped with two guided Chinese Blue Arrow 5 or Blue Arrow 7 missiles with a cumulative or high-explosive fragmentation warhead, 40-mm automatic grenade launchers of the LG5A type, three parachute ammunition with a cumulative warhead or two air-to-air missiles. Such a combat "swarm" can operate within a radius of 30 km,

maybe kg ??

[Destiny]

No, not kg, grams. The American developments of the "swarm" are currently in their infancy and are still inferior to the Chinese ones.
American

Chinese

As the saying goes, feel the difference.

[Alexey Sommer]

I would not say.
On the contrary, the Chinese are lagging behind.
They have an ordinary multicopter, while amers have real insects.
The American version is much more dangerous.

[Trapp1st]

The American version is much more dangerous.

[Alexey Sommer]

You are absolutely right.
Although this is fantasy so far, I am afraid of the near future.

[Ka-52]

I remember our Defense Ministry, and the special services were shouting about the secrecy regime for defense programs, and development, and here it remains only to lay out the drawings for free access! !!

you will always find a reason to moan What have you posted? Sketch layout? Yes, such layouts are molded in batches in any design bureau. Is the concept itself a mystery? Idea? Well, about the "swarm" use of UAVs is now known on any couch connected to the Internet. What is the state secret?

[tikhonov66]

"... Well, about the" swarm "use of UAVs is now known on any couch connected to the Internet.
..."
- This is what it means not to read SCIENTIFIC fiction (not to be confused with "fantasy" !!!)
- The author of the idea of ​​a "swarm of drones" is ...
genius science fiction writer and philosopher Stanislav Lem.
And it was - in 1964 - 57 (FIFTY-SEVEN !!!) years ago ...
- See his sci-fi novel Invincible ...

eight-))))

[Klingon]

that's right, it's stupid not to read or watch science fiction. Science fiction becomes reality someday. I always cite Captain Kirk's Star Trek flip-up communicator and Motorola's first cell phone that followed. Because the then chief of Motorola thought it would be nice if people had a device similar to Captain Kirk's communicator. And many years later, Motorola appeared in the form of a classic clamshell - an analogue of that very communicator

[Ka-52]

- The author of the idea of ​​a "swarm of drones" is ...
genius science fiction writer and philosopher Stanislav Lem.

in Invincible, the swarm was the very form of life. Even if not animate. Crystals were not UAVs, but elements of a common mind. And also the constituent elements of the "clouds". So it's not entirely correct.

[venik]

Quote: Ka-52

What have you posted? Sketch layout? Yes, such layouts are molded in batches in any design bureau.

=======
Moreover, the article has already said: "....preliminary performance characteristics of drones for the complex have already been determined, but may be adjusted..... "(by the way, NOBODY did not disclose them). Add: Appearance - too! So far, what is in the photo - layoutexecuted by sketch project! And what these devices will be like, how they will look and what the performance characteristics will be - one can only guess ("on the coffee grounds" )!

[KCA]

It is written - on an initiative basis, this is not an order of the Ministry of Defense, the company conducts NIKR for its own money, what it wants, then it tells, if the Ministry of Defense likes it and they give their requirements for development, then the secrecy mode is already turned on

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Thrifty

it remains only to lay out the drawings for free access! !

What are the blueprints ?!
You read it in full, even OCD hasn't even started there yet. We are only talking about the concept, the idea of ​​how it might look .. And how it will actually be, no one knows yet.

[syndicalist]

Quote: Thrifty

it remains only to lay out the drawings for free access! !!

Because potential opponents have long passed not only the stage of OCD, but also a trial serial production. There is no secret that can arouse even minimal interest - that's the whole explanation.

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

About the regime of secrecy kriat only when there is really nothing to show.
And so the Ministry of Defense and the special services ALWAYS tried to demonstrate their achievements, right down to the drawings, just like the Americans and the Chinese do.

[rocket757]

The company "Kronshtadt" on its own initiative began the development of the multipurpose unmanned complex "Molniya" in the interests of

The question is - does the company have the appropriate competence and what would create something appropriate, effective, reliable, corresponding to the tasks set ???
Those. and this is the "shoemaker" who knows how to stick out GOOD BOOTS?

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: rocket757

Those. and this is the "shoemaker" who knows how to stick out GOOD BOOTS?

They are doing Orion ... The one that unexpectedly turned out to be a shock one. This development is proactive! They invest theirs. Therefore, it is not classified yet, IMHO. And "Orion" was adopted ...
Probably, these are able to "wear" good "boots"!

[rocket757]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Probably, these are able to "wear" good "boots"!

If there is a competent design group, appropriate production capacity ... then go ahead, we wish them success in their work / creativity, for the good of the country!

[mssp]

Quote: rocket757

appropriate, efficient, reliable

Here's a reliable nafig is not needed.
A reasonable level of reliability, at the level of the Chinese, is quite enough, where cheapness is more important.
It is not clear only where they will take the engine.

[rocket757]

Quote: mssp

Here's a reliable nafig you don't need

The economy of war ... this is understandable, there is nothing to cover a disposable device with a very beautiful, expensive varnish.
It must effectively complete the task, but what the engine will look like and what resource is a secondary task.

[Kart]

Quote: mssp

It is not clear only where they will take the engine.

Well, you know where. They will steal it somewhere.

[Pashhenko Nikolay]

Yes, the shoemaker seems to be able to do something. The only question is why, on an initiative basis, and not the Ministry of Defense sets specific requirements for them. It seems as if they are doing a favor when buying drones. While the people with age-old wisdom did not get a slap in the face in Karabakh, they didn’t get exactly the fifth point.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay

While the people with age-old wisdom did not get a slap in the face in Karabakh, they generally sat on the fifth point exactly.

That is, Orion, Okhotnik, other drones, including kamikaze, began to develop in Russia only after Karabakh?

[rocket757]

A controlled, efficient swarm is a level task more difficult than just a single device. High degree of automation, i.e. the system should be much smarter.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: rocket757

Controlled, efficient swarm

In Karabakh, people with age-old wisdom received a slap in the face from a controlled effective swarm?
Read the desired comment carefully.

[rocket757]

Is the topic about Karabakh?
There is no need to talk about the future, about the general trends in the development of such systems .... okay, let's go.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

I responded to the comment of Nikolai Pashchenko, who wrote that Russia on the topic of UAVs sat on the fifth point exactly until the people in Karabakh with age-old wisdom received a slap in the face.

[rocket757]

No question ... just out of phase. Let's go.

[alexmach]

Controlled, efficient swarm, this is a more difficult task than just a single device

A third of a step is more difficult, nothing more.

High degree of automation

Yes, about the same as on a single drone. A modern drone assumes the possibility of autonomous flight and missions without a communication channel. Having solved the tasks necessary for a single drone such as communication, autonomous missions to the "swarm" are closer than "a stone's throw."

[rocket757]

It all depends on the power of the calculator, on the degree of its "cleverness" ... by the way, and on the noise immunity of communication channels between devices. In the "swarm" there should be one unifying command center, so that the chaos in decision-making / maneuvers between smart devices would not lead to a catastrophe.

[alexmach]

In the "swarm" there should be one uniting, command center, so that the chaos in decision-making / maneuvers between smart devices would not lead to a catastrophe.

Communication between devices in a swarm is, yes, a separate problem that ordinary drones do not have. And one "manager" in the swarm is a sheer trinket, and is worth nothing against the background of those computing resources that are already needed for an autonomous drone.

[rocket757]

Of course, a modern computer is not the size of a refrigerator ...
Let's see how and who in the world will create a working, efficient system.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: rocket757

effective "swarm", this is a more difficult task than a request

Even in the USSR, there were anti-ship missiles capable of attacking in a swarm, under the control of one of the missiles.

[rocket757]

Now it is simply becoming smaller, faster, more lethal, and this is already a fact, not a guess.

[Pashhenko Nikolay]

Previously, of course. But as we see, the Ministry of Defense purchases them directly not in large quantities.

[alexmach]

The question is - does the company have the appropriate competence and what would create something appropriate, effective, reliable, corresponding to the tasks set ???

Well, today it is the only Russian company that has created and is bringing to mass production of UAVs of the same notorious MALE class. Moreover, she is on her own initiative - as they say. That is, at least something these people did, and not in the 70s, but now.

[K-36]

Uv. rocket757, you seem to be completely unaware of who exactly heads "Kronstadt". And it is headed by N.N. Dolzhenkov. An aircraft designer who, back in the days of the USSR, stood at the origins of the then emerging direction - the UAV. And I must say that the USSR then had the whole world at its tail in UAVs. And in modern Russia, Dolzhenkov made the Yak-130 (for example) However, read in detail (and not only to you, I would recommend it for the general development of knowledge)
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2240578.html
Once I sent Dolzhenkov by mail a proposal to "twist" the idea of ​​a UAV glider (for example, the AC-4-115 with a jet engine for takeoff https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2240578.html ). At least for the border guards (to guard the Kerch bridge, for example). And maybe the oil / gas industry will need to monitor pipelines, and the Emergencies Ministry will also need to track fires in the taiga ... In a word, it could be useful to many, not just the military.
In short, I would like to wish Nikolai Nikolaevich health and further creative success. I would be glad if other readers of the Theme, who are sincerely worried about the results of "Kronstadt", join my wishes.

[K-36]

Sorry, I inserted the same link twice by mistake. Here is a video link to the AC-4-114
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghW_vD0UBg

[rocket757]

Quote: K-36

You seem to be completely unaware of who exactly is heading "Kronstadt".

Therefore, I just ASKED. But, the question had a continuation, from the experience of previous years, of course, BUT, here, in other places, it was noted more than once that any topic should be developed outside the manufacturer's company ... and the more complex the equipment / products, the more the process must be organized stronger and more thoroughly ...
Let this not only be a question for the company, but also for the Ministry of Defense, it is interesting to know, to understand that everything will be organized in our mind!
Regards

[Insurgent]

The development of drones working in the "swarm" has begun in the interests of the Russian Aerospace Forces

By the way, I met an interesting opinion of people who are authoritative in building AI systems, from which it follows that if a person manages to create an "artificial brain" integrated with "faceted vision", at least the level of a dragonfly - an effective predator that has perfected its skills throughout its evolution, which began 358.9–298.9 million years ago (!!!), then the shock systems will receive a completely new qualitative stage of development.

Due to the unique structure of the insect's eyes, the angle of view of which is about 360 degrees, the dragonfly instantly reacts to any changes around, and the micro-brain processes this data accurately. This makes hunting easier.

A dragonfly "misses" in a hunt, only in 1 case out of 20 ...

The eyesight of this small insect is much sharper than that of humans. 30 thousand tiny facets, resembling mosaic in structure, and allow you to distinguish even ultraviolet radiation.
The unusual structure of the eye makes it possible for this insect to confidently navigate in space. A feature of this structure is that the lower facets are able to distinguish shapes, and the upper facets are able to distinguish the color gamut of the image.

[rocket757]

Since the time when compact, high-speed, powerful computing devices appeared, the process began .... any digital camera is much more complicated than analog photography.

[Insurgent]

Quote: rocket757

Since the time when compact, high-speed, powerful computing devices appeared, the process began ...

But ... Even before the "intelligence" of the same dragonfly, or, for example, an ordinary fly, the process still has to develop and develop.

Quote: rocket757

any digital camera is much more difficult than analog photography.

How to say...

If we talk about "pure digital" with the perception and fixation (processing by the processor) of information in exclusively digital form, without the aid of analog-to-digital converters, then the process does not look as complicated and cumbersome as converting from analog to digital, and then back to analog view for recording and output from media ...

[rocket757]

The complexity of digital devices is growing, and the size is decreasing!
So to create an "eye" in quality not worse than that of natural counterparts, the task is solvable.

[Insurgent]

Quote: rocket757

The complexity of digital devices is growing, and the size is decreasing!
So to create an "eye" in quality not worse than that of natural counterparts, the task is solvable.

Solvable but not yet resolved. There is something to strive for and learn from Nature. She's perfect.

[rocket757]

Mother nature, this is millions of years of evolution ... humanity has not moved far from the beginning of its path. If we haven't killed ourselves, we still have everything ahead of us!

[Wedmak]

at least the level of a dragonfly

Why would a drone like that? Nowadays, digital cameras are much more perfect than the compound eye.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Wedmak

Why would a drone like that?

The dragonfly is a predator that always rushes to prey from below in the air right on the fly. Her faceted vision in the upper part of her eyes makes it possible to sharply react to blue and ultraviolet light, so hunting in the sky is her prerogative.

Do you think that the lot of the UAV is only work on the ground?

Quote: Wedmak

Nowadays, digital cameras are much more perfect than the compound eye.

This is obviously what you got in Terminator ... This is not true.

[Wedmak]

This is obviously what you learned in Terminator

No ... I kind of have an education in computational technology and have a little interest in physics. I assure you, modern cameras of different spectrum (sometimes combined) + graphics processors (NOT INTEL and AMD, specialized!) Will make this dragonfly like a tortoise god. This time.
Secondly, the dragonfly has excellent maneuvering capabilities that cannot be realized on jet drones and even on helicopters, it is thanks to them that it is such an effective hunter. That is, you need to do some additional means of destruction.
The third -

react sharply to blue and ultraviolet light,

Do potential targets emit / reflect exactly in this range? So it is more in infrared, radio and microwave (radar).
On our fighters yes, there are OLS, which detect the target for a couple of hundred kilometers, but your dragonfly does not see more than a few meters. This is because the compound eye along the evolutionary branch is lower than the mobile eye with a changing focus and a large range of visible color. By the way, the resolution of the facet is also much lower than that of the human.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Wedmak

On our fighters yes, there are OLS, which detect the target for a couple of hundred kilometers, but your dragonfly does not see more than a few meters.

Yes, evolution somehow did not think of giving an insect - laser

Quote: Wedmak

I assure you, modern cameras of different spectrum (sometimes combined) + graphics processors (NOT INTEL and AMD, specialized!) Will make this dragonfly like a tortoise god.

Not convinced Nowhere have I seen statements from the scientific community, according to which it was possible in practice to give a machine vision (and a brain for processing graphics) comparable, for example, to a fly ...

Quote: Wedmak

Second, the dragonfly has excellent maneuvering capabilities that cannot be realized on jet drones.

UAVs, especially in a "swarm", can be of completely different classes and schemes, including such super-maneuverable ones, "flying sideways" like a dragonfly jumper.

[Wedmak]

thought of giving an insect a laser

What does the laser have to do with it? These are passive devices, they do not emit anything, but the sensitivity allows you to detect very distant targets.

comparable, for example, to a fly ...

You do not understand: why, for example, a UAV, vision like a fly? Insect vision does not differ in sharpness, range, color. It is sharpened for response to movement, ultraviolet spectrum, close distances, fast processing. A UAV with such vision will crash without even taking off, because it will not be able to recognize where the runway is. And the operator will have to put a camera in the normal range to see at least something.
Also ... how do you imagine a facet chamber? It will essentially be hundreds of small lenses (like on a phone), with a constant focus. At a certain distance they will work fine, but they will not be able to see far. And yes, optics will be sooooo expensive, because each such lens will need a matrix to receive the corresponding radiation. And then you are tortured to add these separate pictures. It will react to movement instantly, but will not give a complete picture.

[Roman 57 rus]

The dragonfly is not all-weather and not round-the-clock, unfortunately.

[Ka-52]

throughout its evolution, which began 358.9-298.9 million years ago

those dragonflies died out, leaving no immediate descendants)) in fact, in trilobites, which appeared much earlier than meganeuras (about 500 million years ago), the eyes were not only no less complex, but also hard (from inorganic calcite, in contrast to modern protein )

[aybolyt678]

Quote: Insurgent

The unusual structure of the eye makes it possible for this insect to confidently navigate in space.

and how are they with focusing? does the cornea function as a lens? or does it calculate the distance from changes on different faces?

[Insurgent]

Quote: aybolyt678

and how are they with focusing? does the cornea function as a lens? or does it calculate the distance from changes on different faces?

Somehow, but they cope with all the tasks. The effectiveness of the dragonfly as an excellent hunter has been confirmed by research.

[Wedmak]

and how are they with focusing?

Nothing, since this is a fairly hard material, the focus is fixed. They see not far, the capture angle of each "facet" is less than 6 degrees, no color. But yes, the reaction to movement is great. This allows them to hunt well.

[alexmach]

"artificial brain" integrated with "faceted vision", at least the level of a dragonfly

You are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the dragonfly brain. Modern computers are clearly superior to it. Take a modern air-to-air missile with a phased array radar - this is its control system, in general, and does what you described above. So much for the "faceted vision of the dragonfly brain."

[Insurgent]

Quote: alexmach

You are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the dragonfly brain. Modern computers are clearly superior to it. Take a modern air-to-air missile with a phased array radar - this is its control system, in general, and does what you described above. So much for the "faceted vision of the dragonfly brain."

Possibly +/- as you are evaluating. Although this topic can be argued and argued ...

But do you take into account the cost and dimensions of a computer with the capabilities of an insect cerebellum?

Is it possible to use such oversized and expensive in production computing systems in disposable kamikaze drones designed to work in a swarm?

[alexmach]

But do you take into account the cost and dimensions of a computer with the capabilities of an insect cerebellum?

Is it possible to use such oversized and expensive in production computing systems in disposable kamikaze drones designed to work in a swarm?

I must make a reservation that I myself am far from an expert, but in my opinion no problem.

For comparison, modern "large" computers are now quite successfully simulating the work of the mouse brain.

The number of neurons and connections between them in the human brain is about an order of magnitude larger than the number of neurons in modern largest artificial neural networks (there are other differences besides the number of neurons and connections, but roughly speaking, such a metric will be used in order to evaluate comparatively complexity). The entire nervous system of a dragonfly is not big at all. The problems it solves can be solved "on a mobile phone", roughly speaking.

[riwas]

By the way, I met an interesting opinion of people who are authoritative in building AI systems, from which it follows that if a person manages to create an "artificial brain" integrated with "faceted vision"

The "all-seeing eye" for drones, being created in Russia, will allow looking beyond the boundaries of the electromagnetic spectrum familiar to the human eye, Sergei Skokov, deputy general director of the United Instrument-Making Corporation (OPK, part of Rostec), told RIA Novosti.

A similar module, in particular, will be equipped with the medium UAV of short-range "Corsair".

"A technology for processing hyperspectral data streams is being created. The technology is based on the unique characteristics of spectral radiation that each object or material has. According to these characteristics, our equipment can uniquely identify what is in its field of view, regardless of the enemy's attempts to hide or introduce something. misled us, "Sokov said.
As explained in the defense industry complex, the system independently, without the participation of the operator, identifies the detected targets - according to the database, where the hyperspectral characteristics of various objects and materials are entered.
https://vpk.name/news/141325_v_rf_sozdayut_vsevidyashee_oko_dlya_bla_otlichayushee_lozhnoe_ot_realnogo.html

[mark1]

Those. As I understand it, these are one-way drones (the Americans are developing a program to return a UAV under the "wing" of the carrier)
Something like (of course, at a much lower level) ADM-20 "Kueil" from 1961 to the 70s later the program was developed and called SCAD and later ended with the creation of AGM-86 ALCM

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: mark1

Those. As I understand it, these are one-way drones (the Americans are developing a program to return a UAV under the "wing" of the carrier)

There is not a word about this in the article. Whether it is returned or not. Depends on the cost, I guess. And what functions will it perform. The combat load (declared) is very small ...

[mark1]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Not a word about this in the article

Those. everyone understands how he understands, but with functions in general it is clear - imitation and reaction.

[alexmach]

Those. As I understand it, these are one-way drones

Yes, most likely. Perhaps these devices can be returned by parachute, but as for me the idea is this itself, even their own air defense knocks them down. And with the return under the wing, as for me, there are too many problems.

[tralflot1832]

Private traders with their swarms already give such performances by drones in the sky. True, with Ali expressa. Give them a combat UAV, the program will be written and done! We must catch up!

[Adimius38]

This topic has been developing for a long time in the West, but we have just started coming out. However, it is not surprising if you look at the same attack drones that we still cannot put into mass production. Meanwhile, the American MQ-1 Predator has flown until 2018 since 1995. And besides, they also have the MQ-9 Reaper which is excellently produced and operated to this day. Lagging behind them in almost 30 years is sad

[Dkuznecov]

The main thing is to start on time.
And then competitors come up with - we will not have time to look back.

[Alexey Zigalov]

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiimzitoidiiii

[MrFox]

And what, algorithms of behavior in a swarm without a single control center have already been created? I would like to see publications on this topic.

Otherwise, all this is just blanks without mathematics and software.

[riwas]

We probably need the specialization of such UAVs. Some of them should be equipped with electronic warfare transmitters, some with reconnaissance means, and some should be shock ones. Like an aircraft carrier's wing.
http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren21/VDV_Russia.doc