Military Review

Nikon's "New Jerusalem" versus "Light Russia"

100
Nikon's "New Jerusalem" versus "Light Russia"
Church Council in 1654 (Patriarch Nikon presents new liturgical texts) A.D. Kivshenko, 1880


Nikon announced a global project:

"New Jerusalem will be in Moscow!"

New Jerusalem will become the world center of Orthodoxy, like the Vatican. Nikon himself will become an "Orthodox pope." He also liked the old thesis of Pope Gregory VII:

"Priesthood above the kingdom."

The attack on Russian customs


The "devotees of piety" viewed church reform differently. Rtishchev and Nikon welcomed Greek and Kiev scholars and monks, considered it necessary to adopt their achievements in theology and education. Correct Russian divine services according to their models. Another wing of the "zealots" was wary of the Greeks and Ukrainians, advising to protect the Russian Church from their influence.

But in some matters, the entourage of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich was united. It was believed that

"The people are mired in sin"

and a radical correction of morals is necessary.

The result was a decree in which everything was piled into one heap - fortune telling, fortune telling, gambling, folk entertainment and games, music, buffoons and various customs that have existed in Russia since time immemorial. All of this was declared "demonic" and banned.

In particular, it was ordered not to call buffoons and sorcerers into homes, not to swim in thunder in rivers and lakes, not to gamble (including chess), not to drive or dance bears, not to sing “demonic songs” at marriages and not to sing shameful words talk, do not fist fights, do not swing on a swing, do not wear masks, etc. Domras, surnas, beeps, gusli and hari to find and burn, etc. For disobedience to beat with batogs, for repeated violation - link.

Thus, the Romanov government began an offensive against Russian traditions dating back to the gray, pagan times. The authorities started a war with the people.

Round-ups swept across Moscow and large cities, grabbing buffoons. Found musical instruments and masks were burned.

It is interesting that these actions in Russia coincided with the repressions that fanatics-Protestants, Calvinists, Puritans carried out against popular traditions in Western Europe. However, the authorities did not yet have the opportunity to suppress the thousand-year-old traditions.

Repression swept over the top. The common people, especially in the outback, in the countryside, were not affected by all this. And the local priests usually showed sanity and did not climb into folk customs or participated. The priest was chosen by the "world" (community), and he could not go against the people. Those who went against the "peace" were simply kicked out.

Grecophiles and Grecophobes


Russia at that time was the stronghold of world Orthodoxy. Her political life was closely intertwined with the spiritual. The Ukrainian (Western Russian), Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Syrian and Georgian clergy were drawn to Moscow. They helped the Orthodox brothers financially, with money, and sent church literature. For this, a second printing house of the "Greek language" was opened in the capital. Under her, a central metropolitan library was created.

Among the foreign priests and monks, there were many educated people, theologians and scientists. They tried to use their talents. From Kiev, the learned monks Epiphanius Slavinetsky and Arseny Satanovsky were invited for rhetorical teaching.

A friend and favorite of the tsar, Rtishchev, founded a special St. Andrew's Monastery on the Kiev road, in which Epiphanius and other specialists had to check spiritual books being prepared for printing, open a school for studying the Greek language, grammar, rhetoric and philosophy.

During this period, some of the high-ranking clergy and officials were carried away by Greek education. Along the way, they got used to consider everything else that came from the Greeks (from the West) as a role model. They began to prove that church reforms are necessary for the state as well. If Russia wants to become the world center of Orthodoxy, then you need to bring your rituals closer to the rituals of other countries. They were a kind of "Grekophiles", Westernizers.

They had serious opponents - the "soil people". They believed that the true purity of Christianity was preserved only in the Russian kingdom. That is why Moscow ("Third Rome"), "Holy Russia" rose. And the first Rome and the second, Constantinople, fell due to damage, distortion of faith. And now the Greeks and Kievans carry this damaged faith to Russia. It is possible that they need to be re-baptized. The traditionalists were strong in spirit, determined and confident. Among them is the famous Avvakum.

The question of "unanimity"


The first serious conflict broke out around "unanimity." Russians at that time constantly went to churches, to all services. And they were long. To save time, we introduced "polyphony". Priests and deacons conducted several services at once and read quickly.

The Greeks and other foreigners criticized this improvement. They say that the service has become a formality. The tsar's confessor Vonifatiev agreed with them. Unanimity was established in the churches subordinate to him. And a sermon was added to the Liturgy, it was read in the Greek Church, but it was not yet in Russia. "God-lovers" (they are also "zealots of piety") began to demand that unanimity be introduced in all churches.

This innovation caused a violent protest among traditionalists. They announced that Vonifatiev had moved away from the Russian tradition. Patriarch Joseph gathered a church council. On it (February 11, 1649) it was decided to restore the old order of worship.

Vonifatiev did not reconcile himself, appealed to the Patriarch of Constantinople. He spoke in favor of unanimity. Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich supported this decision. Meeting in Moscow on February 9, 1651, the council approved unanimous singing in churches instead of polyphonic.

So the Great Schism began.
At the same time, it was decided to bring church literature to a single model. The party of Nero, Avvakum and Daniel Kostroma insisted that the books should be corrected not according to Greek, but according to Old Slavic manuscripts. True, from a purely technical point of view, this was impossible. Such work has been done for hundreds of years, and the manuscripts differed from each other, new disagreements were revealed.

Rtishchev, Vonifatiev and Nikon stood for the options that the Kiev monks worked on. The king took their side. That is, we again followed the path when the Western (Greek or Kiev) was considered the standard. And Russian sanity, when the people themselves took all the best that suited them, was rejected.

The Greek lovers believed that the true "antiquity" is not in Russia, but in Greece. They say that a direct tradition comes from the Byzantine Empire. However, they were wrong. The same liturgical literature was imported to the Greeks in the XNUMXth century from Moscow, when Ivan the Terrible established the first printing house.

Nikon's ambition


On the whole, everything would have been possible, and everything would have worked out, through reasonable sabotage on the ground, without further pressure from above. Patriarch Joseph behaved with restraint, caution, did not support either conservatives or radical reformers. Allowed the processes to proceed gradually, without sudden movements.

But in 1652 Joseph died. In his place they predicted Vonifatiev, but he refused, citing his advanced age. Called Nikon's best successor - in his prime, strong-willed and energetic. Everyone in the circle of "devotees of piety" supported him - both Greek lovers and traditionalists. It was believed that Nikon would take the post of patriarch, and would promote his old comrades. The tsar was also delighted that his "friend" would be the patriarch.

Everyone was wrong.

Nikon was an extremely ambitious man. He saw himself at the head of the state, as earlier Filaret (father of Tsar Mikhail Romanov).

Immediately after the election, Nikon openly tried to occupy the position he needed. When the consecrated cathedral had already named him patriarch, he unexpectedly refused to accept the staff and other regalia. They tried to persuade him, begged him. Finally, the king began to beg and knelt in front of him. Then Nikon demanded that Alexei Mikhailovich obey him

"As the chief and the shepherd and the reddest father."

The sovereign agreed.

Moreover, he offered Nikon to accept the title of "Great Sovereign", which Philaret once bore. The king himself wore it.

The Patriarch temporarily became a valuable assistant to Alexei Mikhailovich. But everyone else had a hard time right away. Nikon hated competition. He sharply marked the distance between himself and yesterday's comrades, they were not allowed beyond the hallway of the patriarch. And he took up the reform resolutely and individually.

In February 1653, "Memory" was sent to Moscow churches, where he demanded to conduct rituals in accordance with the Greek, correct books, be baptized with three fingers, serve the Liturgy on five prosphora, write the name Jesus not after one, but after two "and" and etc.

The former "lovers of God" tried to revolt. Nero submitted a report to the tsar, where he accused Nikon of heresy and numerous sins. But Alexei Mikhailovich was already tired of the "devotees of piety" with their endless squabbles and attacks on each other. And he completely believed in his "friend's friend".

Neronov's petition was handed over to the patriarch for his consideration. Nikon immediately showed that he was a tough ruler and would not allow himself to argue with himself. Neronov was exiled to the Novospassky monastery, then to Simonov and Spaso-Kamenny (Vologda diocese), ordered to tonsure a monk.

Avvakum and Daniil Kostromskoy spoke in his defense. Habakkuk was arrested and called upon to accept the "new books." The archpriest did not betray his convictions, the patriarch ordered to deprive him of his dignity (to be cut off) and exiled to Siberia. Daniel was also defrocked and exiled to Astrakhan, where he was killed in an earthen prison.

So the split began.

True, at first it had not yet become a national disaster. The revolt of Neronov, Habakkuk and Daniel was not supported, and few knew about them. "Memory" was taken calmly. Like, the tsar and the patriarch know better. Most of the temples were still serving. Who will check it? Why retrain and change something? And there were no “corrected” books in the required quantity.

And, in general, the Russians were not up to it. There were plenty of other important events inside Russia. A big war was impending with the Commonwealth. However, Nikon's decisive policy ultimately led to disaster.


Vyacheslav Schwartz. Patriarch Nikon at the New Jerusalem Monastery. 1867. State Tretyakov Gallery, Moscow

The policy of the "Great Sovereign"


After the death of Tsarevich Dmitry, the sovereign had daughters, but there was no heir. Alexey Mikhailovich and his wife prayed earnestly, made rich contributions to monasteries, and went on pilgrimages to holy places. Nikon usually accompanied the king, prayed with him, instructed.

The main sin was lack of respect for the patriarch, deeds committed contrary to his opinion. The "sobny friend" firmly took the sovereign under his influence.

In 1654, an heir was finally born. Alexey Mikhailovich was sincerely grateful to the “friend”. Nikon was well versed in political and economic issues. Going to war with Poland, the tsar gave him all civil affairs. He received almost tsarist powers and increasingly became a taste for power.

Foreigners noted that Nikon

"Lives well and willingly jokes."

But he was not joking with everyone. Arrogant and extremely self-confident, he chopped off his shoulder and destroyed opponents. While the war was going on, the patriarch launched a campaign to "correct morals." Each parishioner was required to spend at least four hours in church; drunkenness, gambling, fornication, and swear words were prohibited. The patriarch's staff was significantly increased. The patriarch's servants traveled through the cities, streets and bazaars. They reported about disorder, arrested violators. Especially the clergy got it. Undesirable abbots of monasteries, priests and monks were defrocked, exiled, thrown into prisons.

Nikon began to push forward the church "reform" by means of power. His spies reported that "Memory" was not being fulfilled, the priests were sabotaging his decisions, serving in the old way. He convened the Consecrated Cathedral in 1654. I knew that many hierarchs were in opposition to the reform. Therefore, he was cunning, he did not ask questions directly. He did not mention the sign and other discrepancies in the Russian and Greek churches. I formulated in a general way - whether it is necessary to correct books and rituals according to the old Slavic and Greek models. The council answered this question in the affirmative: it is necessary. Bishop Paul of Kolomna began to argue about bowing to the ground. The patriarch immediately stopped him and the hierarch went to prison from the cathedral. Nikon taught everyone - he is the supreme power, you cannot contradict him.

Thus, Nikon received the decision of the council. However, he began to reform the church not according to the "old Slavic and Greek" models, but only according to the Greek ones.

The hierarchs did not dare to openly oppose Nikon. We tried to circumvent. They drew up a message to Patriarch Paisius of Constantinople, invited him to become an arbiter. He replied that the church requires unanimity only on the main point, that the difference in rituals is not a crime against dogmas and a sign of heresy and schism. Therefore, different local churches may well differ in order, for example, the time of the liturgy or with what fingers to be baptized.

This did not suit Nikon. He found a new arbiter. In 1655, Patriarch Macarius of Antioch came to Moscow for "alms". He realized that if you support Nikon, there will be more "alms". He unconditionally supported the righteousness of the Moscow Patriarch in everything. Agreed to take part in a magnificent ceremony invented by Nikon.

He organized his secondary ruling by the patriarch. Macarius laid a miter on him, as it were, from the Ecumenical Church, and not just the Russian one. He also suggested that the Armenians are crossing themselves with two fingers. They came up with a label - “Armenian-like heresy”. And if “heresy”, then what are we talking about? With heretics, the conversation is short.

Another council was convened and two patriarchs (Moscow and Antioch) smashed the "heretics" to smithereens. The Council approved a new Service Book based on the Greek service book.

Nikon gave orders to smash and burn the icons depicting two-fingered fingers during the sign of the cross.

"New Jerusalem"


Nikon began to destroy everything that he considered wrong. He condemned the icons of the Novgorod style, ordered to select and destroy them. The patriarch smashed them with his own hand, cursing the authors and owners. Russian temples of the ancient hipped-roof style did not correspond to the Greek models, Nikon forbade their construction. I noticed that in Greece and in the East there are no wooden churches at all (apparently, due to a lack of wood). He judged that they were fire hazardous and short-lived, ordered to break down all the wooden churches in the capital and replace them with stone ones.

At the same time, this spiritual sabotage against "Holy Russia" was carried out at a time when the heavy war with the Commonwealth continued. War for Western Russia - White and Small. The war required full mobilization and concentration of forces and resources. The country has just gone through a series of riots, an epidemic, has lost a lot of people, suffered huge losses. But Nikon didn't give a damn about that. Anything that did not fit into his projects, he rejected.

He not only ordered to replace wooden churches in Moscow with stone ones, but also got carried away by the grandiose project of "New Jerusalem". He disposed of the state treasury alone and uncontrollably. In Moscow, in a short time, the Patriarchal Chambers were erected, which were not inferior to the royal ones. In the richest and most beautiful chamber, Krestovaya, Nikon started the custom of dining, sat on a dais as a sovereign, surrounded by boyars and church hierarchs. The construction of several patriarchal monasteries began. New Jerusalem in the suburbs became the main one. Part r. Istria was renamed Jordan, one of the hills was named Golgotha. And the main cathedral of the monastery reproduced the Church of the Resurrection of Christ in Jerusalem.

It was not just an imitation. Nikon announced a global project:

"New Jerusalem will be in Moscow!"

He believed that the Poles had almost been defeated, that Malaya and Belaya Rus would join the Russian state. Royal armies will reach the borders of the Turkish Empire. Further, the Christian and Slavic peoples of the Balkans, the Caucasus and Syria will come under Russian influence. New Jerusalem will become the world center of Orthodoxy, like the Vatican. Nikon himself will become an "Orthodox pope." He also liked the old thesis of Pope Gregory VII:

"Priesthood above the kingdom."


Resurrection Cathedral in the XNUMXth century
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 25 February 2021 03: 46
    +4
    The result was a decree in which everything was piled into one heap - fortune telling, fortune telling, gambling, folk entertainment and games, music, buffoons and various customs that have existed in Russia since time immemorial. All of this was declared "demonic" and banned.
    The sovereign signs, and prepares the paper, slips ... who? "Kievans" or guardians of the "Russian" church? That's right .... and you don't need to put a shadow on the fence.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 25 February 2021 08: 24
      +6
      our "historians" do not recognize the Inquisition in Russia. So there are 12 surviving articles of Princess Sophia.
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/«Двенадцать_статей»_царевны_Софьи

      In 1681-1682, the Moscow local church council, headed by Patriarch Joachim, on behalf of the bishops, asked the tsar to use civil courts to prosecute the Old Believers. However, according to the patriarch, the legislative provisions were still not severe enough, it was necessary to introduce a penalty for the old rite, which was done in 1685 - torture for dissent and the death penalty - burning of living people in log cabins - were introduced. In accordance with the decision of the Moscow Cathedral of 1681-1682, the voivods were engaged in the search for the Old Believers together with the local bishops, they sent service people to bring the schismatics to courts, where they were then tortured and burned alive in log cabins.


      The strangest thing is, why is it so scary to execute people, for the baptism with two fingers, for Isus / Isus? Is it clear to us that they are not saying something?
      There are some deeper differences between these churches, and I saw one such discrepancy in the description of St. Lukyanov's Travel to Holy Land.
      In Kiev, in the Pechersky Monastery, there were saints "like the stars in the sky."
      these saints were in a state of "neither alive nor dead." before a person fell into some kind of hibernation and came out of this hibernation, possibly either renewed or in general by a different person.
      We don't even close what it is. If the scale of this phenomenon was throughout Russia, then it is understandable that the schismatics - Nikonians, who banned such customs, became enemies for the entire Russian people.
      1. Artyom Karagodin
        Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 12: 32
        +1
        There are no dogmatic discrepancies, if you do not take bespopovtsy. Schism and heresy are different concepts. The first is about breaking off relations with the Church, and the second is about distorting the doctrine.

        The whole problem is that it was necessary to correct manners and liturgical mistakes, but Nikon set himself the goal of simultaneously turning Russia into the center of world Orthodoxy, and this is a purely political project. Moreover, at that time Aleksey Mikhailovich was at war with Poland, and in the capital, with his consent, Nikon was in charge. So he began to use the resources of the state to promote his ideas. However, the tsar also liked Nikon's project, although Nikon himself eventually lost his dignity. Quite to the point, by the way. He defiantly left the patriarchal throne, which he had no right to do according to the canons. He was offended that Alexei Mikhailovich had become too independent. I hoped that he would crawl on his knees to ask for forgiveness. But the tsar did not do this, but convened a council, which deprived Nikon of the patriarchate.

        The conclusion is simple: when politics becomes decisive in matters of faith and conscience, something like that always comes out. However, from the point of view of normal history, the article smells strongly of "Fomenkovism". And the last publication is generally the height of stupidity.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 25 February 2021 16: 43
          0
          Quote: Artyom Karagodin
          There are no dogmatic discrepancies, if you do not take the popovites.


          Well, how is it that Nikonian Christians and Old Believers are completely different concepts, different rituals and different beliefs. Doctor of History says this well. Pyzhikov, who are Old Believers and Old Believers?



          on my own I will add
          Old Believers are sun worshipers, therefore Sala Maleikum is a prayer to the sun.
          1. Artyom Karagodin
            Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 16: 55
            +1
            Quote: Bar1
            Sala Maleikum-prayer to the sun

            Are you serious?

            However, the level of competence in the history of precisely the religion of the same Spitsyn, who claimed on one talk show that there was no persecution in the USSR, since his grandmother "calmly baptized Easter cakes (!!!!) on Easter", is about the same.

            Excuse me if it came out like a mockery, but where did you get everything that you wrote - I don’t know. Fomenko is just resting!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 25 February 2021 17: 22
              0
              Quote: Artyom Karagodin
              Are you serious? Just don’t tell Muslims about it, they will laugh.


              will the Jews laugh too? Sholem Aleichem?
              In general, Sala Maleikum is a pre-Muslim and pre-Jewish greeting from the Sun worshipers. It is decoded, as you can see, quite in Russian.
              1. dzvero
                dzvero 25 February 2021 18: 00
                +1
                As an option - "sala little kume" Both prayer and greeting smile
              2. Artyom Karagodin
                Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 18: 02
                +3
                It is correct to write not Sala Mayleikum, but "salam-alleykum". It is translated from Arabic (as well as "Sholem Aleichem" from Hebrew) - "Peace be with you". And it has nothing to do with sun worship. In the Jewish environment, sun worship did not exist at all. Even when the Jews massively went into paganism, it was not into sun worship. Baal, Dagon, Astarte, Moloch have nothing to do with sun worship.
            2. Bar1
              Bar1 25 February 2021 17: 55
              0
              Quote: Artyom Karagodin
              Excuse me if it came out like a mockery, but where did you get everything that you wrote - I don’t know. Fomenko is just resting!


              Firstly, Fomenko and Nosovsky themselves noticed a CHANGE of Russian ritual ceremonies during the time of Alexei Mikhailovich (replacement of the forms of coffins with another modern one), and this requires very serious reasons.
              Doctor of History Pyzhikov noted that Old Believers are NOT Christians.
              If you look at old atlases and maps, you will see such symbolism there.

              In one Universal cosmography of the 16th century, there is such symbolism in the New World.
              This symbolism is Solar and Lunar.



              at the Cathedral of St. Stephen / Stephen of the 17th century in Vienna we see the symbols of the Solar and Lunar.



              the trip of Baron Herberstein to Muscovy we see that the Grand Duke Vasily 3 is sitting in the solar crown.



              Van Klenk's journey to Muscovy we see that Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich is sitting in the Sun crown wearing a hat, which means that there were crowns in Russia.



              further, I have a map of old Moscow of the times of Mikhail Fedorovich, it is VERY clear that Moscow churches had their tops-half-meshes. This is a piece on the arrow of the Moscow-river and Yauza-Tagana. So Moscow is a city of mosques-Moscow.



              let alone that
              -sultan-solar lord
              - on the flags of Japan, Korea, India / Barata and other countries, the main symbol is the sun. On the flags of Muslim countries, the Sun has transformed into an undefined star, but this is a lie. The star is the Sun.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 13: 14
        -1
        Quote: Bar1
        our "historians" do not recognize the Inquisition in Russia. So there are 12 surviving articles of Princess Sophia.
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/«Двенадцать_статей»_царевны_Софьи


        Timur, so it turns out that Peter the First, who put an end to the reign of his sister “the lamb of God”, and not the “ghoul” and “antichrist”?
        laughing
        Now a question for the studio - how many different believers were burnt in Mother Russia? I will prompt women - none.
        The rest are no more than ten.

        Now for the Inquisition. Who are the inquisitors never wondered? The Catholic Order has its own structure and is headed by a general. Although you can name one Russian inquisitor? His position, rank, place in the hierarchy? Myk, nyk ..
        The fight against heresy is much older than the Inquisition, and the Russian state, in particular, the first mentions of Christian heresy date back to the 50s of our century. More than a millennium remained before the emergence of the Inquisition.
        So it makes sense to mix water with wine. The split is a terrible tragedy that, alas, still bleeds.
        And last but not least, the term "Light Russia" and its opposition to "Orthodoxy", even if even "Nikon's Reform"? For beauty, or complete illiteracy in theological issues of Orthodoxy in Russia? Well, in principle, I am satisfied with "The authors have carved themselves in the title."
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 13: 50
          +5
          Put +, Vladislav. For some reason, when a person does not understand technology, then all his attempts to talk about the history of technology will cause laughter. But in matters of religion - all the docks. Skomorokhov recently published a very funny opus that monks are excommunicated for participating in the war, and monks are left with worldly names. This is not about nit-picking, but about the fact that the author does not have even the most elementary knowledge, at the "2 * 2" level.

          Judging by what Alexander Samsonov wrote about Orthodoxy, he is also one of those who, when asked, "Do you know the Symbol of Faith?" pronounces "cross". But the level of self-righteousness is simply off scale. Not a shadow of doubt, not a single "guess", "in my opinion", etc. Everything is presented as facts and does not imply doubt. The detail is important. In my and not only my deep conviction, this is an indicator of unprofessionalism. As in one famous movie: "Who knows more - or the wise man?" - "The sage doubts everything." Neither add nor subtract.
          1. Richard
            Richard 25 February 2021 16: 26
            +3
            In matters of religion - all the docks.

            When reading this article, for some reason, the autobiographical stories of J. Hasek "Political Commissar of the 5th Red Army" and "Commandant of the City of Bogulma" immediately came to mind:
            .. Having received an order from the Center on the conduct of anti-religious propaganda among the population, I ordered to drive all residents to the meeting. When everyone had gathered, I climbed onto the podium and delivered a speech - "It is forbidden to pray to Jesus Christ. You cannot keep icons in the house. It is forbidden to be baptized. It is forbidden to go to church."
            From the crowd stormy applause and numerous shouts were heard - "Hurray! That's right !!! It's high time !!! Glory !!!"
            Satisfied, I got down from the rostrum and sent a telegram to the center about the successful event.
            After lunch, a large delegation of local old people came to me and with tears of joy thanked me on behalf of ... the entire Tatar population of Bugulma. It turned out that only Muslims live here ...
            1. Artyom Karagodin
              Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 16: 27
              +1
              laughing I agree. The level is the same.
        2. Bar1
          Bar1 25 February 2021 16: 26
          +2
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Timur, so it turns out that Peter the First, who put an end to the reign of his sister “the lamb of God”, and not the “ghoul” and “antichrist”?


          no, as we can see, Peter was the complete trace of his father and sister in politics.

          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Now a question for the studio - how many different believers were burnt in Mother Russia? I will prompt women - none.
          The rest are no more than ten.


          how do you know? Do you think so?

          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Although you can name one Russian inquisitor? His position, title,


          Do you think that Sofya's decrees are hanging in the air? Like she wrote them, but there is no one to perform them. No, of course. Facts come to us that Old Believers like "self-burned", but this is certainly a lie, most likely the Old Believers were burned by Christian Nikonians.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 17: 39
            0
            I will repeat once again, according to the results of the decrees of Princess Sophia, no more than 10 sentences were executed. According to one of the first decrees of Peter - to bury unfaithful wives in the ground, they suffered five times more. Russian tsars were not darlings and did not shy away from conducting inquiries and passing sentences. This was before Patriarch Nikon, the facts also took place later.
            In my opinion, as an Orthodox Christian, priest Habakkuk was a strong man and worthy of respect. However, he was the first to be burnt to sleep with his comrades. However, this was not at the time of Sophia, but her brother Fyodor Alekseevich.
            Not surprisingly, this found followers among the Old Believers. On "sky ships" they went voluntarily. The authorities under Peter opposed the facts of self-immolation of the Old Believers. Take an interest in Tobolsk business.
            Timur our story is not pink with white foams, but gray like its iron people, what is the point of blackening it even more and carrying azinea!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 25 February 2021 18: 10
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              I will repeat once again according to the results of the decrees of Princess Sophia, no more than 10 sentences were executed.


              link to this.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 18: 43
                -1
                Peter the First (collection of legal acts), teaching aid, L. 1978.
            2. andrew42
              andrew42 25 February 2021 20: 14
              +4
              Bar has already insisted above that the Old Believers (Avvakumites, two-fingered, etc.) and the Old Believers are completely different concepts. Nevertheless, we regularly travel from the Old Believers (the political opposition within the Moscow Patriarchate) to the Old Believers. Avvakum's companions and Traditions, buffoons, masks, games - these are different directions of persecution, along which the "Nikonian flock" worked with the failed "Pope of Moscow".
    2. Vend
      Vend 25 February 2021 09: 33
      0
      The dominance of the Byzantines and their way of life began with Prince Vladimir. Under Nikon it acquired a more reactionary character.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 25 February 2021 12: 41
        +5
        Exactly. Just in time for the recently discussed question about the "truthfulness" of history. The official history written by the winners and to confirm the views of these very winners - well, this ... Nikon actually destroyed all the monastic archives and burned the entire written history of Russia, distorted and rewritten the rest, destroyed and rebuilt churches in his own - "correct manner." The apotheosis of all this is that now the "truth-tellers-patriots", together with the "official historians" of the Miller-type, call the true adherents of the true Orthodox religion "schismatic Old Believers" ... Like it is they, the "Old Believers" who have split the Orthodox Church, and not Nikon with his minions and kings, who actually did all this and drove the people into serf slavery ... "Gusli", "nozzles", swings and so on, it turns out that they "corrupt the people", that is, "freedom", " fun "is evil, and" slavery "even with God, even with the Tsar and his servants, is" good. " There is nothing to have fun, you have to kneel in churches and work the rest of the time in corvee ... By the way, they noticed, and now here they also repeat, "you need to work a lot," "work several jobs," "you can't make money, go into business "," the ruble will not get through between the sofa and the ass "," not to hold a meeting, but to work "...
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 25 February 2021 12: 54
          -1
          Quote: Snail N9
          The apotheosis of all this is that now the "truth-tellers-patriots", together with the "official historians" of the Millerian persuasion, call the true adherents of the true Orthodox religion "schismatic Old Believers"

          The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the Old Orthodox faith as equal-saving. Thus, he recognized the persecution of the Old Believers as erroneous.
          1. Artyom Karagodin
            Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 13: 51
            +4
            It is not true, this is not about that, but about the fact that the anathema to ancient rituals was lifted. But the split has not gone anywhere. Why are you talking about what you do not understand?
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 25 February 2021 14: 04
              +1
              Quote: Artyom Karagodin
              It is not true, this is not about that, but about the fact that the anathema to ancient rituals was lifted. But the split has not gone anywhere. Why are you talking about what you do not understand?

              you wrongly accuse me of incompetence. I'm already tired of writing to everyone I meet that I was baptized according to the old rite and a little in the subject.
              I repeat. The Russian Orthodox Church admitted that it was wrong. What am I wrong about?
              The Old Believers, in turn, did not forgive the past persecution and oppression. And they do not recognize the "new" rituals as equal.
              Do not lash out at people indiscriminately. Control yourself.
              1. Artyom Karagodin
                Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 14: 19
                +3
                Ummm ... Actually, nobody pounces. The question was asked calmly. I argue with this.
                The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the ancient Orthodox faith as equal

                Since I am a religious scholar by education, plus, an Orthodox Christian, I answer: we are talking about recognizing the wrong in anathematizing the old rituals. That is, if a person leaves the schism, he may at the same time adhere to the old rituals. Such communities are called co-religion. Rituals are really a secondary thing, and they do not affect the salvation of the soul, if we are not talking about distortions of dogma, etc.

                But a split remains a split. The Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church did not come out of it. That's what I mean. If you do not see the difference, then this just means that you do not understand the subject.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 25 February 2021 14: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                  Since I am a religious scholar by education, plus, an Orthodox Christian, I answer: we are talking about recognizing the wrong in anathematizing the old rituals.

                  We read carefully what I wrote.
                  The Orthodox Church recognized the Old Believers as equally salvage.
                  If I am not mistaken, you need to look at the Manifesto of 1905.
                  Questions regarding the anathema were resolved later. Wasn't it in the 20s?
                  Well, unanimity was practiced already in the 18th century.
                  1. Artyom Karagodin
                    Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 14: 32
                    +1
                    The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the ancient Orthodox faith as equal

                    So read the manifesto. The point is that the RITES are equally salvageable, and not that the Old Believer hierarchy is equated with the Moscow Patriarchate. It is impossible to speak about any separate ancient Orthodox faith. The only difference between the Old Believers and the traditional Church is, again, the rituals and non-recognition of the ROC-MP as a Church. All. I repeat: no separate faith, that is, one that differs in dogma, canons, etc. the Old Believers did not create. Except for bespopovtsy, but this is a separate conversation.
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 25 February 2021 14: 39
                      0
                      Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                      So read the manifesto. The point is that the RITES are equally salvageable, and not that the Old Believer hierarchy is equated with the Moscow Patriarchate.

                      so you argued with me without even reading what I wrote?
                      nightmare
                      Quote: Flood
                      The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the Old Orthodox faith as equal-saving. Thus, recognizing the persecution of the Old Believers as erroneous
                      1. Artyom Karagodin
                        Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 14: 47
                        +1
                        You will never understand what I disagree with. Nobody denies that the persecution of Old Believers is wrong. This fact has long been recognized, and it would have been recognized back in the XNUMXth century if the state had not pressed any resistance to the new line.

                        It is about the "equal salvation of the ancient Orthodox faith," allegedly recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church. THIS fact was not and could not be. I repeat: 1) the erroneousness of the persecutions, 2) the fact that adherence to pre-Nikon rituals does not affect spiritual life, that is, their RITES, equal salvation are recognized. If you just call them "ancient Orthodox faith", then you are making a gross mistake. If you mean something else, then this is an equally serious mistake. Since the only differences between the Old Believer Church and the ROC are the non-recognition of new rituals and the non-recognition of the ROC by the Church. That is, they believe that these are the Moscow Patriarchate - schismatics, to put it simply. Did I explain it clearly?

                        I think it is worth asking you what meaning do you put into the phrase "ancient Orthodox faith". So which one?
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 25 February 2021 14: 55
                        +1
                        was written on the road. unsubscribe later
                      3. Artyom Karagodin
                        Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 15: 41
                        +1
                        Okay. It is possible not in the comments, but in the message. As you prefer.
                      4. vladcub
                        vladcub 25 February 2021 15: 49
                        +2
                        Comrades, you have an interesting dispute. Exactly the same as in the early Christian period. It was only then they went from a position of strength, and before they tried to somehow argue
                    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 17: 43
                      0
                      Artem thanks for the detailed comment!
                      Regards, Vlad!
                    3. Artyom Karagodin
                      Artyom Karagodin 26 February 2021 20: 49
                      +1
                      Not at all, Vladislav! Without undue modesty, this is my specialty. Sorry for not answering right away. I got carried away by the dispute)))!
                  2. Flooding
                    Flooding 25 February 2021 17: 49
                    +1
                    Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                    I think it is worth asking you what meaning do you put into the phrase "ancient Orthodox faith"

                    Orthodoxy in its pre-reform form. obviously
                    Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                    Since the only differences between the Old Believer Church and the ROC are the non-recognition of new rituals and the non-recognition of the ROC by the Church. That is, they believe that these are the Moscow Patriarchate - schismatics, to put it simply. Did I explain it clearly?

                    Why are you explaining this to the Old Believer?
                    the differences are much deeper than you think
                    since many Old Believers hold on to old traditions, not only in church rituals.
                    Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                    Rituals, equal rescue. If you just call them "ancient Orthodox faith", then you are making a gross mistake

                    I agree. It is the rituals. You are right here.
              2. Flooding
                Flooding 25 February 2021 17: 43
                0
                Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                It is impossible to speak about any separate ancient Orthodox faith.

                I didn’t talk about differences in dogmas.
                but specifically about the differences in rituals.
                the church is called Old Believer Orthodox.
                but if we talk about the Orthodox faith in its pre-reform form, you like it or not, but you have to clarify that we are talking about the Old Believer faith. though this wording is not accurate.
                in the end, I admit - yes, by the ancient Orthodox faith I meant exactly the old rituals.
                1. Artyom Karagodin
                  Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 17: 55
                  +1
                  Well, it is superfluous to consider that this is a separate faith. Don’t you? Only the outer side is different, but the principles remain the same. This is both a tragedy and Nikon's fault with Alexei Mikhailovich, who perpetrated a bloody massacre of the Old Believers, who were not even heretics. And they behaved like enemies of the state. In general, I believe that after the spread of academic icon painting, part-song singing and imitation of the West in the architecture of churches, we should learn from the Old Believers.

                  Sorry for dragging it into the discussion, but the question, in my opinion, is a matter of principle.
                2. Flooding
                  Flooding 25 February 2021 18: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                  Well, it is superfluous to think that this is a separate faith.

                  it cannot be separate, if new rituals have sprouted from it, as from the mother's branch
                  in this case, it would be more correct to consider the post-reform
                  but I don't think so
                  Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                  this is both a tragedy and Nikon's fault with Alexei Mikhailovich

                  It will be interesting for you to know that when I was baptized according to the new rite, as I was already baptized according to the new rite in infancy, but at the same time correctly, according to the canon, with full immersion, I had a choice:
                  - either be re-baptized with dipping again, but according to the old rite
                  - either go through a special procedure for renouncing Nikonianism, with Nikon's curse
                  so yes, the Old Believers remember and did not forgive
                  I hope that they will find the strength
                  everything has its time
                3. Artyom Karagodin
                  Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 18: 05
                  +1
                  Old Believers remember and did not forgive

                  Forget that ... I hope that with time everything will be healed. True, it seems to me that for this something very special has to happen.
                4. Flooding
                  Flooding 25 February 2021 18: 06
                  0
                  Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                  True, it seems to me that for this something very special has to happen.

                  Alas, "something very special" regularly happens in the history of Russia.
                  And this special, often bloody and cruel, by some miracle makes Russia stronger and cleaner.
                5. Artyom Karagodin
                  Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 18: 28
                  +3
                  God willing, and it will come to reconciliation. Moreover, I repeat, we, whom the Old Believers call Nikonians, have a lot to learn from the Old Believers themselves.
                6. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 February 2021 21: 20
                  -1
                  Quote: Artyom Karagodin
                  God willing, and it will come to reconciliation. Moreover, I repeat, we, whom the Old Believers call Nikonians, have a lot to learn from the Old Believers themselves.

                  There is a saying "What pop - such a parish." Although there are back measurements, when the congregation has altered priests for centuries!
                  For example, “Ural Gamayuns” commemorate relatives and friends in cemeteries not on “parental day”, but on the eve of “trinity”. The reason is trivial - the paths to the cemetery dried up.
                  I can sprinkle many different examples, both negative and positive examples.
              3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 February 2021 21: 12
                -1
                Quote: Flood
                Alas, "something very special" regularly happens in the history of Russia.
                And this special, often bloody and cruel, by some miracle makes Russia stronger and cleaner.

                Not always. In the last century, they strained twice and did not become stronger (cleaner).
              4. Flooding
                Flooding 26 February 2021 21: 19
                +1
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Not always. In the last century, they strained twice and did not become stronger (cleaner).

                I cannot agree with you.
                if we recall the seething of dissatisfied moods that took place in the empire before the revolution, then we certainly do not have to talk about a strong state
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 25 February 2021 14: 53
    +2
    Quote: Flood
    The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the Old Orthodox faith as equal-saving. Thus, he recognized the persecution of the Old Believers as erroneous.
    On the part of the Old Believers, a similar response to the acts of the Council of 1971 did not follow, and to this day the attitude to the conciliatory gesture on the part of the ROC MP remains neutral.
    Well done, that's how it should be. “Money in the morning, chairs in the evening.” From the beginning, return the stolen cathedrals ....
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 25 February 2021 15: 38
    +1
    Quote: Flood
    The Russian Orthodox Church has long recognized the Old Orthodox faith as equal-saving. Thus, he recognized the persecution of the Old Believers as erroneous.

    "We are opening" Helmsman "- a set of church laws that has not yet been canceled. And there it is written directly that a bishop or presbyter, who has taken an oath incorrectly, draws this oath to himself. It turns out that the Moscow Patriarchate today is under an oath, and in the course of these foreign innovations of Patriarch Nikon, she anathematized herself and walks under the curse she imposed on herself ”
    The response of the Russian Old Believers to a really broad and promising step towards meeting on the part of the ROC MP can also be expressed in the words of the Old Believer Metropolitan of Moscow and All Russia Andrian (Chetvergov):

    The recognition at the Council of the Russian Orthodox Church in 1970 of the equality of new and old rituals is dogmatically senseless. A similar scheme was proposed by Catholics several centuries ago. During the creation of the union, they proposed to recognize all types of rituals as equitable, and first of all the Eastern and Western rites. In the Orthodox doctrine there is no division into the external side of the sacred rite ("rite") and the internal, and therefore when the external side is changed, the internal, spiritual hypostasis of the sacrament or sacrament is undoubtedly distorted or completely lost
  • Artyom Karagodin
    Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 13: 53
    0
    Quote: Snail N9
    Nikon practically destroyed all the monastery archives and burned the entire written history of Russia, distorted and rewritten the rest, destroyed and rebuilt churches in his own - "correct manner"

    Name at least one temple that was destroyed or rebuilt by him. I destroyed the icons of the "new" letter, and as for the rest, give at least one fact confirming what you said.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 12: 51
    -1
    Quote: Wend
    The dominance of the Byzantines and their way of life began with Prince Vladimir. Under Nikon it acquired a more reactionary character.

    Can you name at least one Byzantine surrounded by Alexei "Quiet"?
    By the way, Byzantium fell a century before the events described!
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 12: 47
    -1
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    The result was a decree in which everything was dumped in one heap - fortune telling, fortune telling, gambling ...

    Yes, that the game of chess, which was played for money in Russia, was banned! wink
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 25 February 2021 15: 55
      +1
      Namesake, it was forbidden to ban it, but buffoons were revived in wandering theaters, and fortune-tellers were, are and will be. Gambling is also forever
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 25 February 2021 04: 17
    +3
    That is, we again followed the path when the Western (Greek or Kiev) was considered the standard. And Russian sanity, when the people themselves took all the best that suited them, rejected.
    You can only wipe away a stingy tear ...
    1. sniperino
      sniperino 25 February 2021 13: 56
      0
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      You can only wipe away a stingy tear
      Especially touching is the binding
      western (Greek or Kiev)
      and the opposition of this "western" (in fact, the past, for it contains Eastern Christian Byzantium and Kievan Rus) to the present, frankly, natural "Russian sanity". Simply "Russian religious consciousness" in the presentation of the Rodnover.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 25 February 2021 15: 06
        +2
        Quote: sniperino
        the opposition of this "western" (in fact, the past, for it contains Eastern Christian Byzantium and Kievan Rus) to the present, frankly, natural "Russian sanity".

        Look carefully and do not juggle. angry
        And Russian sanity when people took all the best that he fit,
        The people took Kiev and Byzantine, reworked according to their inner world. And the Zapadentsy-Mogilyans who came in large numbers, who seized power in Moscow, began to plant their patterns and break everyone over the knee. The Westerners are all Uniates, this is a Vatican project, like the "Nikonian" ROC.
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 25 February 2021 16: 06
          0
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          The people took Kiev and Byzantine
          About "Kievshchina", I admit that I went to Kievan Rus, and not into a hotbed of Latin heresy (Mohylianka). "Byzantine" also took from the pre-Ottoman period. But about "jerking" - it's a bull. They wrote indistinctly. You need to write more clearly. smile
  • Destiny
    Destiny 25 February 2021 04: 27
    +11
    Let us not forget that the Church transformations were carried out by Nikon in a terrible time. Only three decades earlier, with great labors and great blood, the Troubles had been pacified. Social unity was not even close. The state, trying to restore the army and the administrative apparatus, and then recapture the lost lands, squeezed all the juices out of the people, who in response now and then rebelled. The forests were full of bandits. Legislatively adopted cruel measures against any "osprey", "conspiracy" and rebellious "theft" - as they said then. But the rebellious spirit wandered among the people and did not calm down in any way. It is clear that the people resisted, but historians see social reasons in this resistance. Most of the schismatics were peasants, who thus not only followed the right faith, but also freed themselves from the extortions of landowners in the sketes. Among the Old Believers were representatives of the ruling strata, for example boyarina Morozova and princess Urusova. But these are rather isolated cases. According to various researchers, in the second half of the 17th century, from 40 to 50% of the country's population were schismatics. Of course, the church schism became a national tragedy for the Russian people. there is a spiritual unity of the people and for the first time in the history of the state enmity arises on religious grounds. There is a real disunity among the population. Historians argue, and in the church the controversy does not subside about the nature of this schism, whether there was a benefit or more harm from this reform. Gradually, when reading historical data, I tend to think that there was more harm than good.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 25 February 2021 12: 55
      +1
      Quote: Destiny
      Gradually, while reading the historical data, I am inclined towards the fact that there was more harm than good.

      What is the use of talking about the dire consequences of the split?
      1. Artyom Karagodin
        Artyom Karagodin 25 February 2021 15: 44
        +3
        I agree 100%. Nikon's project was purely political, although it concerned the Church. And it never did anything good. Iconoclasm in Byzantium was originally also a political project. As a result, the empire was in a fever for a century. And there are even more of us.
    2. Snail N9
      Snail N9 25 February 2021 13: 23
      +2
      "Unity of the People"? What kind of unity can there be between the well-fed and the hungry? What kind of "unity" can be "rich" and "poor"? Although in fact it sounds somewhat unusual, but such a "unity" can be. In what cases: 1-in the face of even greater danger, when people of all strata see a threat from the side greater than the already existing confrontation-a typical example of a "fight against conquerors" and "predatory raids", 2-when the poor realize the need for the rich and understand that the rich do not "shy away" from the poor and their wealth serves a common goal, the poor are not cut off from management and social and property lifts, typical examples: - "City-States" of the Middle Ages, "Swiss cantons", the Dutch Republic after the Gezov revolution. In Russia, everything happened just the opposite - the Nikonian Church recognized the main thing: slavery, servility and divine "mark". and on this basis the need for state reorganization and arrangement. Moreover, even the king at first did not dare to follow this path because he really went nuts. But then I realized my benefits and supported all this with fervor. Thus, the people in Russia were divided into classes - those who are bright "marked by God" and born with a divine mark and into a "serious estate" - non-humans who were born in primordial sin and must grovel in the mud for life, deserving some kind of "divine forgiveness. "and therefore everything that is not done with them, it turns out to be a divine test for them through the hands of the owners and they must meekly perform and obey, and if it kicks up, here it is! here it is-Bessovsky! Triumphant !. And the Kings and his entourage and those who served along with the Nikonian Church are those who were originally marked by God. For the Tsar is the anointed of God, God's grace is on him and what he does not do is all "from God", and if he welcomes someone, his entourage and the servants, it means that they now have "royal grace" on them, that is, "divine grace". So they now stand higher on the "rabble" - which should grovel before them in "the most respected humility" ..... Here it is the split, the split in society, actually initiated by Nikon and his "church" and then consolidated by the "royal power" ... That is why we still cannot find a common language with the Europeans, for whom the "Swiss cantons" are "the history of the right path", and in our country everyone is trying to justify the path of "servile Russia" with the right Tsar and his servants, supported by the "true church" based on servility and lack of rights of the rest of the population.
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 25 February 2021 20: 33
        +3
        Snitcher N9, I fully agree with your interpretation. The enslavement of the people, the next stage of being reduced to a slave-like, bestial state. Terrible time.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 05: 23
    +5
    And Russian sanity, when the people themselves took all the best that suited them, was rejected.

    I have always believed and still believe in the sanity of the Russian people.
    Now in the State Duma and the government of Russia there are a dime a dozen of such Nikonov ... how are those times reminiscent of the present.
    Tsar father ... evil boyars and even these reformers, damn them ... will break the wood ... then we will have to disentangle their deeds for many years.
  • Plastmaster
    Plastmaster 25 February 2021 06: 04
    +3
    Again I was convinced that all these faiths are true. Not native. To whom that was beneficial. And how many people have suffered and are suffering from this.
  • Moskovit
    Moskovit 25 February 2021 08: 53
    0
    So far I don't see anything so terrible that has changed in the divine service. Purely external attributes. Protestantism moved much further from Catholicism. But it can be seen that when even cosmetic changes are imposed from above, this causes a violent reaction from the common people.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 25 February 2021 13: 03
      +1
      Quote: Moskovit
      Until I see anything so terrible that has changed in worship

      What would you say if you learned tomorrow that the Kremlin was painted blue?
      "I don't see anything terrible yet"?
      He sees each degree of importance through the prism of his beliefs and commitments.
      What is not important to one can be extremely important to another.
      Although, it would seem, what a trifle - the walls were painted.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 25 February 2021 14: 33
        +1
        If you worship the letter of the law, and not the spirit, then any deviation will seem like a terrible sacrilege. And if you open the Gospel, then you will not find there a single mention of fingers, icons, candles. Jesus never said, write Jesus or Jesus.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 25 February 2021 14: 49
          0
          and what does that mean?
          Down with traditions and rituals?
          1. Moskovit
            Moskovit 25 February 2021 15: 12
            0
            This means that the gospel comes first. And traditions with rituals should not overshadow the main thing - the words of Christ. This applies to both sides of the conflict.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 25 February 2021 15: 15
              0
              Quote: Moskovit
              This means that the gospel comes first. And traditions with rituals should not overshadow the main thing - the words of Christ. This applies to both sides of the conflict.

              again. what is this supposed to mean in relation to rites? without reasoning about primacy.
              let the Kremlin be blue?
              or well, it nafig this Kremlin, love for the Motherland is primary?
              1. Moskovit
                Moskovit 25 February 2021 15: 38
                +1
                You are trying to mix immiscible. What does love for the Motherland and rituals have to do with it? What was so patriotic about the rituals of the Old Believers? Does the spelling Jesus or Jesus affect faith, love for others? Or will everyone run to surrender now? I think this is mutual crap. And it took several hundred years to figure it out.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 25 February 2021 17: 38
                  +1
                  but did I mix something.
                  the problem is how you got it
                  rituals are related to religion, and religion is related to faith
                  while the Kremlin is symbolically considered the heart of the country for which I wrote about love
                  is it really so difficult to draw a simple parallel?
                  1. Moskovit
                    Moskovit 25 February 2021 21: 14
                    0
                    Yes, I understand your parallel. That people stick to their roots even in small things and all that. And here all the more faith. But the fact is that both sides in their struggle got away from the essence of the issue. It's not about the paint. And in bricks. Sincere delusions do not negate the fact of delusions
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 25 February 2021 21: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Moskovit
                      It's not about the paint. And in bricks

                      you never answered.
                      Do you personally like the blue color?
                      after all, if you think about it, then yes - the color is not the main thing
                      but in life these little things turn out to be very important
                      because in everyday life it is not the deep layers of philosophical thoughts that cement society, but such simple, unassuming and inconspicuous things in everyday life, rooted deeply, where our selfhood comes from.
                      1. Moskovit
                        Moskovit 25 February 2021 23: 10
                        0
                        But no. I disagree in this case. The Kremlin was white stone, it turned red. So what. Will be blue. Probably unusual, but I won't burn myself for it. And kill others. Something deeply changed in the character of the people three fingers? Here Peter changed. And this is all darkness and ignorance. People needed a reason to riot. More precisely, the government itself created it. A spark ignited a flame. There was no Holy and White Russia before the split. There was a living Russia, and it remained so after.
                        What happened recently due to vaccinations. Chips. Bill Gates. And this is the 21st century. And then ...
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 February 2021 01: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        Something deeply changed the character of the people with three fingers?

                        it is difficult to judge through the centuries without experiencing it for yourself
                        you look from the outside and think, well, you were pagans, well, you became Orthodox ...
                        Well, the Kremlin was wooden, well, it became stone
                        I have already asked you about personal feelings.
                        those that pass through their essence
                        and you once again switch to abstraction without understanding the question
                      3. Moskovit
                        Moskovit 26 February 2021 08: 52
                        0
                        So, as a believer, I am telling you about my personal feelings - I consider it ignorance. I don't think these were very serious changes. That now there shouldn't be any changes in life at all? How then to grow and develop.
                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 February 2021 08: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        So, as a believer, I am telling you about my personal feelings - I consider it ignorance.

                        it is very strange (to put it mildly) on your part to blame half of the Russian people for ignorance, into which the reform was driven for decades and centuries
                        all the best to you
                      5. Moskovit
                        Moskovit 26 February 2021 11: 15
                        0
                        As for ignorance - at the first census in 1897 it was found that 29.3% of men and 13% of women are literate. How many literate people were there in 1653? Have you read what the essence of the reform is? What had to be driven in there? Especially to the peasants who did not know how to read and write. The reforms became a pretext for fighting the government. Therefore, it caused such a reaction from the common people.
                      6. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 February 2021 11: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        About ignorance - at the first census in 1897 it was found that 29.3% of men and 13% of women are literate.

                        I hoped you understood - I didn't mean literacy
                        because literacy has little to do with faith
                        what you probably don't know
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        So, as a believer, I am telling you about my personal feelings - I consider it ignorance.
                      7. Moskovit
                        Moskovit 26 February 2021 13: 24
                        0
                        You are confusing faith and superstition. You constantly accuse me of misunderstanding, but you do not give any facts. Only lengthy hints are not clear what. Okay, rest assured that the Russian people were special before the split. Just do not forget that 40 years before this, the beautiful two-fingered priests swore allegiance to impostors and almost put the Polish king on the throne.
                      8. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 February 2021 14: 18
                        -1
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        You confuse faith and superstition

                        there it is.
                        it turns out that all European wars of religion were about superstition.
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        Okay, rest assured that before the split, the Russian people were special

                        did not write anything about the feature.
                        selfhood is about something else.
                        Quote: Moskovit
                        Just do not forget that 40 years before this, the beautiful two-fingered priests swore allegiance to impostors and almost put the Polish king on the throne.

                        I wrote something about the priesthood?
                      9. Moskovit
                        Moskovit 26 February 2021 15: 23
                        0
                        I have asked you many times - see what kind of religious reforms we had. How can this be compared to the Reformation ?? Everything has really changed there.
                        And how did three-fingering change the self of the Russian people?
                      10. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 February 2021 16: 27
                        0
                        I seem to understand you
                        you don't care how to be baptized: with a pinch or with two fingers. yes, even with the palm of your hand
                        you don't care how to read prayers
                        it's all superstition for you
                        then what is really important to you about the matter of faith?
  • sniperino
    sniperino 25 February 2021 17: 00
    0
    Quote: Moskovit
    This applies to both sides of the conflict.
    I agree. Who is right and who is to blame for this conflict will be decided personally at the top. But a penitential council could have been held. As well as judging the participants of the Civil can only be personally.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 February 2021 17: 53
    -1
    Quote: Flood
    What would you say if you learned tomorrow that the Kremlin was painted blue?

    We traditionally live by clichés. Where did the concept of "White-stone Kremlin" come from? For 800 years of its existence, 300 years, the Moscow Kremlin was "white" and the same amount of "red"!
  • tatra
    tatra 25 February 2021 09: 17
    +15
    Catherine II, "On Old Belief", 15.9.1763
    Nikon is a person that arouses disgust in me. I would have been happier if I hadn’t heard of his name ... Nikon and the sovereign tried to subordinate himself: he wanted to become a pope ... Nikon brought confusion and division into the patriotic peace before him and integrally united. The Greeks imposed the three-pacing on us with the help of curses, tortures and executions ... Nikon made Aleksei the king-father a tyrant and torturer of his people.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 25 February 2021 16: 02
      +1
      Tatra, do you remember who Metropolitan Sergius was, probably an Old Believer? And Stalin had a break in the time that he met with Sergius?
      I think that Stalin knew better than us in the history of the church.
  • BAI
    BAI 25 February 2021 10: 54
    +1
    do not swim in thunder in rivers and lakes

    Absolutely the right decision. Swimming in a thunderstorm is deadly.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 12: 29
      +1
      Swimming in a thunderstorm is deadly.
      Nothing of the kind ... it is more dangerous to be in a thunderstorm in an open field or under a lone tree ... there are more chances to get hit by a lightning strike.
      I have never heard of a lightning bolt while swimming in a thunderstorm. what
      1. BAI
        BAI 25 February 2021 12: 31
        +1
        The Office of Rospotrebnadzor in the Moscow Region is warned: it is strictly forbidden to swim during a thunderstorm. If a thunderstorm is found in a lake, river or sea, you need to get out of the water as soon as possible. In water, the body "stretches" to its full height, which means that the life-threatening "step voltage" will become even greater than when a person is standing on the ground, since it will be determined by the distance from the palms to the feet. In addition, water is a good conductor of current: even if lightning struck far enough, there is a high probability of being hurt by it.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 25 February 2021 13: 08
          +1
          In India, 107 people were killed by lightning strikes in one day. About this on Friday, June 26, 2020
          the disaster led to the death of 83 residents of the state of Bihar, another 24 people died in the state of Uttar Pradesh. It is noted that a significant number of the dead were caught by lightning while working in the fields.

          Of course, risking your life is not worth it and at the first lightning it is better to hide in a house with good grounding.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 25 February 2021 13: 53
          +1
          "Rospotrebnadzor administration", don't you know that the most inveterate "Nikonians" and "Russophobes" have dug in there? After all, swimming in a thunderstorm is a manifestation of Russian nature. And the spring "lockdown", and wearing a mask - everything to lime the Russians, after all, only Russians suffered from this
      2. Moskovit
        Moskovit 25 February 2021 14: 35
        +1
        My friend's son died like that. Lightning struck the river. He swam there in the rain ... I wanted to show that everything was like ...
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 25 February 2021 16: 04
          +1
          I also heard about similar cases
      3. andrew42
        andrew42 25 February 2021 20: 27
        +1
        I agree that the danger of being struck by lightning in water is deliberately exaggerated. Akin to grandma's fairy tales: why? - and therefore! Rather, the danger when going to a bare shore, or in shallow water at full height. Otherwise, lightning would have swept sailors by the hundreds during storms and typhoons ..
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 25 February 2021 12: 36
    +2
    The author, read "The Life of Archpriest Avvakum", literally on the first pages, the enemy of Nestor, will tell you how the buffoons chased. Another article stretched over the globe of Hyperborea
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 25 February 2021 12: 52
    +2
    "the new Jerusalem will become the world center of Orthodoxy" I remembered the "great schemer", with his: "New Vasyuki"
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 February 2021 13: 42
    +2
    In fact, the Samsonovs have previously acted as zealots for "piety and against" Nikon's devilry. "
    The author (ry) says (ryat) that Nikon was of great ambition, and if instead of Nikon the Patriarch was an Old Believer, that ambition is excluded?
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 25 February 2021 20: 29
      +1
      Of course not excluded. Habakkuk would also have dealt with the Nikonians if he had gained the upper hand in the eyes of the king. And even worse.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 26 February 2021 15: 25
        0
        The Samsonovs believe that the Old Believers are "white and fluffy"
  • garik77
    garik77 26 February 2021 01: 04
    0
    What kind of Ukrainians did Nikon bring? Author, what about your knowledge of history? There was no Ukraine in the 17th century!
  • boni592807
    boni592807 31 March 2021 17: 54
    0
    I believe that Nikon's "project" was not only political, but assumed an external effect and an internal one. hi And the "beneficiaries" are different bully
    External - as already pointed out earlier by colleagues, to become an Orthodox "Pope Roman". Even now, the factor of faith is one of the most powerful and dangerous. An example of events on O, Krajina. bully
    Internal -
    - also pointed out that Nikon was characterized by megalomania. See above, the desire to "move" the Russian sovereign on the throne following the example of the Pope of that time. belay for, which he received .... And Peter 1, the reform "appreciated" as a real "internal" Westerner, but, the church "reassured" and "built in" the verical of power "synod". You never know crying
    - Nikon, in parallel, "cleaning up" possible grounds for opposing the "reform" under the guise of "inconsistency" of Orthodoxy in Russia (Christian version of Russia from Vladimir) supposedly "real" Western (example of imported consultants, following the example of the period of the collapse of the USSR and the emergence of the Russian Federation under Yeltsin - shtatovskih who helped "democratize" the economy, demography and the RF Armed Forces (collapse and plunder, destruction not by military means), while not forgetting about using their position for maximum personal gain, for their "overwhelming" work. they "suffered" in the USA itself, BUT not because of "tricks" with the economy, demography and the RF Armed Forces, But because of taxes, the "rascals" hid it, But the USA does not like THIS.
    They cleaned, EVERYTHING - like, archives, books and ESPECIALLY carriers of the already established Christian Orthodox culture in Russia, from top to bottom (how many juniors were cleaned ...?). At all times, the main struggle is for souls (brains). The results, as well as the post-Soviet YAYING peaks, are political, demographic and could well be SAD geopolitical. see HISTORY. Reform is not as dangerous as an outright war, but incl. economically VERY efficient. See again example Oh, krajina. Not only were everything sold and plundered, but also the Boss in the USA was "pushed" on the cheap. The land is in the process of being sold, but it looks like the US (BOSS) has more promising plans. By concentrating NATO troops near the borders of the Russian Federation and activating the same mankurt along the perimeter of the Russian Federation, the United States decided to fight the "aggressive" policy of the Russian Federation to the last mankurt, janissary and then LOOK and, if the "stars" are well located, play its game. It's time, the US Democrats have almost NO time! am
    It seems that "inside" the Russian Federation, like the Nikon reform, has its own "bookmarks", otherwise everything is revealed by the cells of ISIS (banned in the Russian Federation) and about the guests who are in the cells ...
    History, as children were told earlier: "... The tale is a lie, but there is a hint in it, a lesson for good fellows ...". I want to believe that the lesson has been learned ... and not the EGE (coekakers) .. hi
  • Caucasian
    Caucasian April 1 2021 21: 01
    0
    The article is not about anything, but the comments ... just make fun of it.