Military Review

Peresvet, Oslyabya and Chelubey - a battle for the truth?

138
Immediately, right off the bat, I will warn all readers, especially those who read, as it is now accepted, through a paragraph. This study is just an attempt to comprehend what happened in those ancient times and with historical, and from a logical point of view.


I would absolutely not want to offend someone's patriotic feelings, especially since the conclusion will be, though unexpected, but quite natural.



In general, after reading several materials (Rybakov and Azbeleva) I immediately came to the conclusion that patriotic propaganda is an ancient and unshakable thing. And - effective. But this will be discussed at the very end.

There are still a lot of questions about the battle on the Kulikovskoye field, ranging from location to results. But - we are interested in its very beginning. The duel of the heroes.

The fact that it could have taken place - I will not argue here, since ancient times the fashion for fights before the battle has gone. And the essence of these fights was quite intelligible: it was necessary to find out on whose side the gods were. Therefore, sacrifices were made, and the priests plowed like the damned, and they prepared the fighter from the heart. The sandals are new to him, otherwise he will stumble if the old strap breaks and loses, for example.

The grace of the gods in those days was a thing that had to be reckoned with. And mountains of testimonies remained in history, when everything happened as the priests predicted. For example, in the battle of Cannes, where the Romans did not shine. And so it happened, although we, of course, do not discount the military genius of Hannibal either. As well as the ambitious stupidity of Varro.

Peresvet, Oslyabya and Chelubey - a battle for the truth?


So, the fight. What impact could she have? In theory, I could. However, in ancient times, commanders thought exactly the same as in our times. That is, as long as the soldier does not think, everything is fine. But how I started - as they say, drain the water.

Therefore, I think the Tatars attacked first. They saw that the end had come to Chelubey, and immediately, until it came to everyone (and from the back rows you can't really look at how it was there), gave the signal to attack. And reflections in a soldier's head on the topic for the gods or against exactly until the moment of the first clash with the enemy. And then completely different thoughts, absolutely not divine. For whoever thinks about God in battle does not live long, as is typical.

And so we have two fighters gathered. Chelubey, sort of like a Pecheneg (inaccurate) in origin, and Peresvet. Regarding both issues, it is simply darkness, because "in front of everyone boasting of valor, his appearance is similar to the ancient Goliath: his height is five fathoms and its width three fathoms."

Even if you take the dimensions of the smallest fathom, this is a small fathom, 142 cm, draw conclusions. Godzilla would have thought about it before stepping on such a monster. It's even funny to talk about little things like the Terminator. Whether then it is worth believing researchers like Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who described the Pechenegs as short people, I do not know.

Our Peresvet ... our Peresvet was no less. Because the chronicles preserved his words that "This man is looking for someone like himself, I want to transfer with him!"


Painting by Pavel Ryzhenko


And they were translated. So that even the Russian chronicles disagree. Literary monument of the 15th century, "The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre" says that the combatants hit each other with spears, knocked them out of their saddles and died on the spot.

A rare but normal outcome of the fight. Especially if the opponents are of the same class. Chelubey, according to testimony, was a notable fighter. Peresvet is also not quite a servant of God, since he is from boyars and liable for military service. That is, he could.

But in our modern history, for some reason, the legend that came out of the walls of the Kirillo-Belozersky monastery is being exaggerated. There was compiled a chronicle list, in which this story looks somewhat different.

Here, of course, the question arises as to how much the monastery located in the Vologda region was aware of the details that took place far enough.

And so the monks of the Belozersk Monastery gave the following picture of the battle: Peresvet saw that Chelubey's spear was very long and heavy, larger than the usual spear of that time. Well, yes, a fellow seven meters in height could afford any shaft ... In general, Chelubey was followed by the glory of a tough fighter, who did not suffer defeat at all. Perhaps also because of the spear.

And Peresvet then (as in the List) makes such a decision: to take off the armor, so that if the Pecheneg spear pierces it, he would ride over the spear with his whole body and strike back.

It is clear that there are few chroniclers among the soldiers, and few among the chroniclers. And written in the List is fierce nonsense, and, from whatever side it is not considered, from the military or medical.

So, according to monastic memoirs, Peresvet swooped down on Chelubey's spear, but was able to inflict a fatal blow on him. And then another and leisurely drive to their own and die there.

It is somewhat unclear, however, whether Peresvet's plan to drive the body over the spear worked. I think not, because pierced by such a shaft, he could hardly have done such a thing.

And here the questions begin.

How to take off your armor? Yes, there are many sites and channels of reenactors who can explain all this much better than me. But in general it gives off such masochism. To give such gifts to the enemy ...

It looks more than strange, especially since Chelubey was not going to do that. One in armor, the other without - it is immediately clear on whom the bookmakers would start accepting bets.

In general, Peresvet's idea looks not only illogical, I would say very strange. Medically. I found a picture of how it should look. Yes, Peresvet is here exactly without a shield, armor, helmet. Very heroic, but weird.


Painting by M.I. Avilova "Duel of Peresvet with Chelubey on the Kulikovo field". 1943


And here is just the second question. Okay, let’s put it down, how Peresvet, pierced by such a spear, could leave somewhere, this is unrealistic. In general, as it were, a horse spear fight provides for just such a thing - after being hit by a spear, if it hits somewhere (horse, body, enemy's shield), it must be thrown urgently. Physics has not been canceled, all the more so for two combatants rushing at each other on two horses. Let me remind you if anyone has forgotten. P = m * V, where the weight of his horse must be added to the rider's weight.

If this is not done, then you yourself will find yourself on the ground, thrown out of the saddle. Or worse, the prospect of bumping into your own spear is not very bright.
Well, the last thing in this matter.

The spear enters a body unprotected by armor. Tissues are torn, bones are broken, crushed into small fragments, various organs bursting in the path of the tip. It depends on where the spear goes. Okay in the chest, and if in the side? In the stomach?

Moreover, all this on an impulse from the speed of two horses, each, say, up to 30 km / h took acceleration ...

It is clear that you will not die immediately. You will, of course, live for a couple of seconds. Until the primary pain shock takes its toll, or until the entire body lifts its legs to the top, as it usually happened in such cases.

And it's not worth talking about fortitude, wonderful prayer and other fantastic things. The idea of ​​being pierced by a wooden drill with a steel tip does not look real, making at least some blow. Simply because the brain usually shuts down with such lesions.

The only thing that could be - yes, a mutual defeat of the opponents. And then death is on the spot. Quite a normal alignment.

It seems to me that unserviceable monks came up with this for the sake of brilliance. Not really thinking about how believable it will look later.

Yes, if someone wants to, they can check, but there is another literary analogue that came out 100 years after the Kulikov battle. Someone Thomas Mallory wrote a cycle about King Arthur. The cycle was very popular in Europe, they were read to them.

Mallory did not invent anything like that, they just took and cooked a brew from the romantic knightly literature of France everything that he could reach. He could not reach much, he generally became interested in writing in prison. But the former knight did it, still not a layman ...

So, remember how Arthur died? He got to grips with nephew / son Mordred, who usurped the crown. And pierced him in battle with a spear. Mordred also slid across the spear with the whole carcass and ended up chopping Arthur's head off. In general, both died.


These knightly legends went around the world in batches, as I understand it. From Britain to India. In general, a huge array of these knightly novels was created in France, it was a sin not to use it.

Could they know in Russia? Yes, easily. In general, in the folklore of many peoples there are stories how both died in the battle of two invincible hitherto heroes.

And in this light, the duel between Peresvet and Chelubey is just a very well-worked propaganda myth. Handsome and heroic, although a little ridiculous looking in the eyes of people who know a lot about military affairs.

In reality, such a picture could well have been. The combatants rushed towards each other, struck with their spears and both fell dead.

How could it be. The fight took place. Warlords rushed at each other with spears at the ready. Collided - and both fell dead. Effective, tragic, flawlessly beautiful. Morally and aesthetically - flawless.


Part of the painting by Pavel Ryzhenko


However, not all so simple. And this story is not propaganda at all. Well, maybe so. Little. A little bit.

And here you need to look closely at Peresvet. This is not just an interesting character, there the question sits on the question and drives me around.

Monk, otherwise Monk Peresvet. If you collect everything that is about him in the annals, and there is very little there, seriously, you get this kind of alignment. Originally from Bryansk. From the boyars. Warrior, participated in the campaigns. Apparently, after one of such campaigns, he decided to retire from the world, since he did it already in Rostov. In the Borisoglebsk Monastery. I will note that from Rostov to Bryansk there are more than half a thousand kilometers. Let's just say, boyar Alexander took a good walk, good.

And within the walls of the Borisoglebsk monastery, the former warrior became a monk. A monk is the first stage of monasticism. So let's say, introductory, before tonsure into the "minor schema", that is, before taking the first package of vows and renunciation. Therefore, the name of Peresvet remained worldly, monks are not supposed to be spiritual.

What about a monk who, as it were, has no right to take weapon into hands, except for the protection of his monastery, ended up in the army? The case itself is unique. More in the annals you will not find a case for the monks to find themselves in the troops, although they did take part in the battles.

As an example, I will cite the year 1671, the month of April, when a certain Frol Timofeevich Razin, unable to take the town of Korotoyak, decided to stay at the Divnogorsk monastery. Food, treasury and all that. And he received such a slap in the face from the monks, who perfectly mastered the "fiery battle" and dragged the cannons to the belfry that he was eventually taken prisoner and was executed a little later than his older brother.

So, according to the Life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, before the Battle of Kulikovo, Prince Dmitry went to Sergius in the monastery for a blessing. Sergiy of Radonezh was, so to speak, "in trend" and the rumor about him thundered all over Russia, if not further. The blessing of such a righteous man and miracle worker was supposed to inspire all Russians to fight the Tatars.

Later, "The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre," Sergius blessed Dmitry and sent with him two former military men, Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya.



With Dmitry's blessing, disputes are still going on now, since the conversation has been rewritten so many times, at which, in addition to Sergius and Dmitry, the biographer of Sergius Epiphanius was present, that nothing remained of the original text.

But the detachment of Peresvet and Oslyabi at the disposal of Dmitry is really nonsense. The monks had no right to do this under the threat of the most terrible punishment - excommunication. But, nevertheless, they did. Very strange, but true.

By the way, in the very first legend from 1380, "About the massacre of others like the Don," not a word is said about the participation of Sergius of Radonezh and his blessing. And this is also interesting, since in those days the church still played a huge role in people's lives. Some researchers generally believe that this episode was invented later, by those who wrote the chronicles ...

It is generally believed that those who wrote this episode after the battle were quite familiar with the history of the Crusades. But there were plenty of knight-monks, more than enough military orders. In general, there was someone to take a role model from.

Indeed, unlike the Vatican, which actually led the Crusades, the Russian Church was much more peaceful.

With Chelubey it is still more difficult. So many options for name, origin, position - you will grab your head against your will. And a noble Murza, and of khan blood, and a mercenary-combatant ... Mongol, Tatar, Pecheneg and even ours, Rusich-deserter. For seven centuries, what has not been composed.

There is just an interesting point. Neither the Tatars nor the Pechenegs had such a name as "Chelu". "Bey" is a normal ending, Turkic. It means the head, no matter, clan, tribe. Military and administrative rank in general. There is a similar one, "Chelebi". So in the best case it turns out "Chelebi-Bey". But in seven centuries even something like that could have been distorted, so the transformation of "Chelebi-Bey" into "Chelubey" can be allowed.

But from the other side, there was no evidence at all of the existence of such a khan-murza-mercenary-defector. And as the Russian chronicles claimed, he was a very famous fighter.

But definitely not a khan. It is clear that it is not the khan, the khan that should not fight in front of the troops. It was not a khan's case.

It turns out interesting. A very strange monk warrior on one side, a very strange combatant on the other ... And both died. Or they didn’t die, because in one of the texts of Zadonshchina, the monk Peresvet is very much alive during the battle and continues to fight “when some have already been beaten”.

And Oslyabya, the second monk, is not easy with him either. Either he hides the "stunned", that is, shell-shocked prince Dmitry behind a felled birch and dies, covering him;

What is the conclusion?

And the result is very interesting. Most likely, there was no fight. And if it was, it was performed by completely different personalities, not Peresvet and Chelubey.

We are dealing with the first case in Russian history of a literary creation of a propaganda nature. In the genre of heroic-patriotic, but not historical.

Nice and logical.

With Chelubey everything is clear. This is the personification of all the forces opposing Russia. But Peresvet and Oslyabya are more interesting.

Peresvet - everything is clear, it is a symbol of the unity of Russia. Warrior and monk at the same time. Secular and ecclesiastical power united against a common enemy. Russian Idea and Vera merged into one. A strong fighter and a wise monk. Ready to lay down his life on the altar of serving Russia.

A beautiful and strong symbol.

And Oslyabya? And Andrei Oslyabya is also a symbol! No less significant than Alexander Peresvet. Oslyabya shows that Peresvet is not alone, that other, no less strong and courageous fighters will come for him (in the event of Alexander's death).

For "The Russian land is great and abundant in people and Faith," as it was written in the same "Zadonshchina". That is, Peresvet and Oslyabya are symbols of the struggle of Russia to the bitter end.

A beautiful fairy tale was written by monks in a distant monastery. Beautiful and smart, because the next seven centuries have shown that times are changing, personalities are changing, but the essence of Peresvet, going to battle with the enemy and Oslyabi, standing behind him, they are practically eternal in our realities.

Suvorov and Kutuzov, Ushakov and Nakhimov, Samsonov and Brusilov, Matrosov and Gastello, Zhukov and Rokossovsky, Romanov and Rokhlin, and the list goes on and on.

Today it is practically not important whether Peresvet and Oslyabya actually existed. The principle laid down by unknown monks for the most part is important. Which today it would be nice to adopt for those who write history textbooks and determine in which direction the development of society will go further.

Still, it even becomes a shame when you see that the efforts of the statesmen of our time on the basis of spiritual and patriotic education are nothing compared to what the clergy did 640 years ago.
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  1. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 23 February 2021 04: 38
    +4
    A beautiful and strong symbol.
    Now there would be more like that! hi
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 23 February 2021 06: 07
      +6
      This is for you guys.
      Still remember?
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 23 February 2021 10: 06
        +22
        Roman has a strange logic, his monastery means you can defend a monk, moreover, they did it quite professionally. We recall the defense of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra from the Poles or the defense of the Solovetsky Monastery in the Crimean War. But God forbid the monk to defend his state in the military business! negative This is a mortal sin, blasphemy! But, after all, Christ taught that the church rule is not a dogma! And in the fact that Radonezhsky dispatched two military monks to Donskoy to maintain the military spirit, I do not see anything illogical in this! And in general, we should be glad that Peresvet and Oslyabya were Orthodox monks, and, say, not Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't come close to weapons! what With all my heart, ALL HAPPY HOLIDAYS! hi drinks
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 23 February 2021 10: 53
          +21
          The fact that a monk is allegedly excommunicated from the Church for participating in a battle, and the exception is the alleged defense of his monastery, this is not a strange logic. This is the COMPLETE ignorance of Roman regarding the subject about which he undertakes to reason. About the same level as the Papuan, who fought all his life with the help of a spear thrower, will begin to talk about the principle of operation of the central ignition cartridge.

          That the monks are left with a worldly name is no less fierce nonsense. Do not leave. Even when tonsured into a ryasophor, a new name is given.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 23 February 2021 11: 03
            +3
            Written by Burns-War by War
            History is history. And the feast is according to the schedule. The more controversial nonsense, the stronger our defenses
            1. Artyom Karagodin
              Artyom Karagodin 23 February 2021 11: 06
              +3
              He is only right that the history of the Battle of Kulikovo from the textbook is just a symbol. And very few facts are known.
              1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
                Andrey Krasnoyarsky 24 February 2021 15: 48
                0
                In fact, the fact of the Battle of Kulikovo is noted not only in Russian chronicles, but also in foreign sources. For example, in the Germanic chronicles. True, there is no description of the battle in any foreign source, it's just the fact itself - the Russians and the Tatars grabbed, the Russians won. That's all.
              2. antivirus
                antivirus 24 February 2021 15: 54
                -2
                the story is written around the winner - Moscow and the principality of Moscow. Dmitry Donskoy lost the country - the failure of the revolt against the Zorda is obvious. BUT COLLECTED, DEFINED THE DISSATISFIED READY FOR A NEW RISE AND RELEASE .. Some of the princes maneuvered around the bush. glorified the most resourceful, determined. ready to go to the end and to the end. wrote the chronicles and the Zadonshchina when the trend towards liberation from tribute became obvious. The scribes then dodged.
          2. Alex777
            Alex777 23 February 2021 13: 32
            +3
            The fact that a monk is allegedly excommunicated from the Church for participating in a battle, and the exception is the alleged defense of his monastery, this is not a strange logic. This is the COMPLETE ignorance of Roman regarding the subject about which he undertakes to reason.

            Especially considering that Sergius of Radonezh, who had monks in the monastery Peresvet and Oslyabya, blessed them to participate in the battle.
            And Chelubey was a Tibetan monk initiated into the highest military knowledge. He joined the Mongols after the conquest of China.
            He was considered invincible. In Tibet, they still don't understand how he was put to bed. hi
            1. Yura
              Yura 23 February 2021 17: 09
              +1
              Quote: Alex777
              He was considered invincible. In Tibet, they still don't understand how he laid him down

              An important point, in Tibet there is no doubt that the fight was. Why do some of us doubt? I will add - if Peresvet understood that the enemy was equal and both had equal chances, then he could well have made the decision to take off his armor in order not to interfere, but he could be more free in his actions, that is, more mobile. With equal chances, he may have believed that his agility and maneuverability, like himself and his horse, is an advantage, that is, a purely technical moment, the choice of weapons, tactics. Well, and the psychological pressure, can you imagine what Chelubey thought when he saw an enemy without armor and shyness in front of him, who perceives him as "invincible" as not deserving that Peresvet was in armor.
              1. Alex777
                Alex777 23 February 2021 17: 14
                +2
                An important point, in Tibet there is no doubt that the fight was.

                Not only do they not doubt - they still remember.
                I am not ready to discuss the topic of Peresvet without armor.
                I have not heard anything about it to this day. hi
                1. Yura
                  Yura 23 February 2021 17: 21
                  0
                  Quote: Alex777
                  I am not ready to discuss the topic of Peresvet without armor.
                  I have not heard anything about it to this day.

                  I have not heard either, but if such an option exists in the discussions, then one can think about it. hi
                  1. Alex777
                    Alex777 23 February 2021 17: 30
                    +1
                    I dilute: I would not take off the armor 1000%.
                    In general, I do not believe in Chelubey's height of 7 m.
                    There was no suitable knight (bishop), and he would not have reached it on foot.
                    laughing
                    And Ilya Muromets in the cave of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra I saw. hi
                    1. haron
                      haron 24 February 2021 15: 58
                      -4
                      Quote: Alex777
                      I dilute: I would not take off the armor 1000%.

                      But in vain. In that duel, where the matter is decided by one blow, when the life as it is does not care about Christ's hill, removing the armor is the only and real chance to win - to be the first to knock the opponent off the saddle. And Sergius has already swept the ladder to heaven for him.
                      It's nonsense that when the torso is pierced, an exalted person has a couple of seconds before cutting. If the brain / spinal cord is not damaged, that is, 3-5 minutes is the life of the brain without blood circulation. And then, it would be if the heart or aorta were punched. And in case of damage to the lung, liver, kidney, intestines and other liverworms, the life time can be calculated in tens of minutes.
                      It's silly to talk about pain in such situations. For A: Fanatical monks, B: Clinical pharmacology has been used since the Trojan War. And Ivan there was and is a lot of tea and poppy in Russia (I will keep quiet about the rest of the "little things").
                      And the last.
                      From what accordion walks bai that monasteries had full communion with the uprisings of Razin and Pugachev. Especially for the Pugachev region. Yes, it seems simple. Nikon tried, and Katka still deprived the monasteries of the function of royal safes for collecting tribute. Well, God bless Katka, it's already 400 years later.
                      So, the monasteries of that time were hidden princes, and the most reliable and, if not banal, strong, skillful, boshkovite were sent to guard them. Ileyka Muromets died at the age of 40, Peresvet was not even forty. And there were half of these in the monasteries .... saints))) Although we can be right?
                  2. Alex777
                    Alex777 24 February 2021 00: 29
                    -1
                    Information for consideration:
                    https://monastery.ru/bog-i-chelovek/na-kulikovom-pole/
                    1. haron
                      haron 24 February 2021 17: 57
                      -1
                      Quote: Alex777
                      Information for consideration:
                      https://monastery.ru/bog-i-chelovek/na-kulikovom-pole/

                      This is not information. This is from the children's book "The Winds of the Kulikov Field", like the 1978 edition. Almost word for word written off.
            2. ecolog
              ecolog 24 February 2021 20: 06
              0
              A Tibetan monk trained in horse spear fighting?
              More than a century has passed since the conquest of China by the Mongols, the power of Genghis Khan had long ago disintegrated, moreover, the Jochi ulus was also in the process of disintegration and civil war. Where does this connection with Tibet come from?
              I am not familiar with Chinese sources, but somehow it all looks strange.
        2. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 24 February 2021 21: 17
          -1
          Quote: Proxima
          And in general, we should be glad that Peresvet and Oslyabya were Orthodox monks, and, say, not Jehovah's Witnesses,
          on the one hand, it is, of course, yes, but ... The fact that the second side did not represent at all what is claimed in modern and often distorting the truth textbooks ... but let's say not so much nomads, how - pagans (who more welcomed VEDAthan Christianity ... often violently in relation to tribal relations Old Believers ?!) ... You do not allow such a development of events ?! ?!...
          And even the name - Chelubey ?! I'm not quite clear ?! There is no certainty that the Turkic, and not the Old Slavic ("beat" ... "chelo" ... or - on the brow , because we are talking about a professional fighter / warrior ? !! ...
          Maybe even then some forces knew how to play off the Slavs (middle part) and related to them, but more eastern clan tribes ?! ?! ..
          and the whole thing is not at all arbitrary interpretations, how, -
          Chelebi-Bey.
          . ? !!
          It's as if today, Alexander Shelemenko ("Storm"), or Emelianenko (one side), and exaggerating speaking, - Klitschko or Alexander Usik (on the other hand) .... ?!? !!
          И especially sadthat it was not a sports fight between Chelubey and Peresvet (!!), and it is combat ... ? !!..
  2. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 23 February 2021 04: 38
    0
    Everything is fine now, even the main building of the MO religious cult was built.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 23 February 2021 05: 31
      -11%
      I look at youtube "Chairman of SNT", "History of Pi", "Historical Freethinker" and other alternatives. It's hard to argue with them. Another thing is striking - "traditional history" does not explain in any way the facts that they cite - it simply "brushes off" them, calling them "delirium". Actually, the alternatives say correctly that history in its modern form, especially Russian, is not science, it is religion, a set of untouchable dogmas beneficial to the authorities. The apotheosis of the religiosity of history was the latest laws in the West and the articles in our constitution directed "against rewriting history."
      1. Torins
        Torins 23 February 2021 06: 58
        +7
        You are apparently very new to history, most likely you did not even go deep into its study)
        1. Snail N9
          Snail N9 23 February 2021 08: 13
          -8
          Obviously you are an awesome specialist in it. Uh-huh. Only in what story is Millerovskaya? wink Once again, history is written only for the sake of the authorities; real history, if it does not serve the interests of the authorities, is simply swept aside and prohibited. Take even the so-called question of the cultural layer - in one case it barely reached 1000 cm in 50 years, and in the other, in 200 years, several (3-10!) Meters, and this is not explained in any way - like "well, so happened".
        2. Pechkin
          Pechkin 23 February 2021 09: 38
          +19
          You are apparently very new to history, most likely you did not even go deep into its study)
          And why is this to a person, he also indicated which channels on youtube he watches and that it is difficult to argue with their authors. I looked out of interest, it's horror. Cloning in the 18th century, the great Tartary (as it should be), the Tartar kings of America, one author of the channel said: I have about 11 acquaintances of archaeologists, then they send me 90 percent, I can't even show you, the guys will be fired (it's immediately clear, secret artifacts are sent ), atmospheric electricity in Russia and its transmission through antenna crosses in churches (ovens were apparently used as a means of transportation, and when excommunicated from the church, the light was turned off), etc. And the contingent in the comments, respectively, some supporters of ancestral law (apparently want to return to the tribal system) Link in the comments to how the world works (I decided to walk like that), some mother of the world is broadcasting there. The Volgodonsk canal is "for a long time", a cleaned canal built by the great Tartary, etc. It was as if I was in a madhouse at an open day. You better advise a person not about a story, but where to buy haloperidol inexpensively.
          1. Parabelum
            Parabelum 25 February 2021 11: 18
            +1
            So interestingly you tell, also go to see something. And then something sad, cold and snow all around. At least I will dispel
        3. Sharky
          Sharky 23 February 2021 22: 43
          0
          apparently very new to history, most likely they did not even go deep into its study)

          It is enough to know a simple thing: history is the most false science. It is difficult to find the truth in it, sometimes it is simply impossible, because the winners write history ...
      2. Nazar
        Nazar 23 February 2021 10: 12
        -1
        Snail-maker N9 - See Stavromat - a person presents without antics, his education is of high quality, he is not an upstart dropout and at the same time there is no admiration for hackneyed cliches at all.
        1. MinskFox
          MinskFox 23 February 2021 13: 07
          +1
          Actually Savromat)
      3. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 23 February 2021 11: 45
        +12
        Quote: Snail N9
        "traditional history" does not explain in any way the facts they cite

        As a rule, such explanations exist. It's just that some people have no time to look for them. It's easier to believe balabolians and dreamers.
        Below you are talking about the cultural layer. What do you know about this concept? How is it formed, what is a cultural layer, what is not? How, what and under what conditions is preserved in this layer, how does the thickness of the increment depend on the conditions? Curiosity, it's interesting. Your writers won't tell you about it.
      4. ecolog
        ecolog 24 February 2021 20: 47
        +1
        Well I do not know. Quite to themselves, "traditional" historians revisited the same Battle of Kulikovo, several times cutting the number of participants and throwing out the infantry.
        The Battle on the Ice is also viewed now somewhat not as an analogue of the Great Patriotic War, but rather as a showdown of local economic entities. Again, no infantry. Etc.
        The traditional historian builds on the information available. Archeological data, documents, comparison of written sources from different sides. Moreover, the more ancient the event, the more dangerous the frontal interpretation of disparate chronicles, which are usually written much later than the events that have taken place, can be distorted for one reason or another.
        Scientific approach. We know this and that, based on this and that. But we don't know for sure. Perhaps it was so, because this and that, then. But this is not a fact.
        Alternative scholars often ignore the scientific approach and are generally not historians by training. Mathematicians, geneticists, humorists, etc. Hype sells many times better than scientific work. Everything is clear to them, they read the sources head-on, like a multiplication table, and twist them as they want.
        The alternative will say - "Etruscans are Russians", which means that Rome was founded by the Slavs, and there it is not far from digging up the Black Sea.
        Plus, ideology is connected. How is Rurik a conditional Swede? All these evil Germans have come up with to humiliate us Great Russians. And the Romanovs in general rewrote all the chronicles (everywhere around the world), buried all the evidence, burned all the category books. And they still hide everything, yes. This is in demand, REN TV will not let you lie.
  3. Destiny
    Destiny 23 February 2021 05: 09
    +29
    A beautiful fairy tale was written by monks in a distant monastery. Beautiful and smart

    How everything really happened is a mystery.
    “Peresvet gallops on a greyhound horse, and shines with golden armor. [...] And his brother Oslabe chernets said: "Brother Peresvet, I see wounds on your bodies, already your head will fly to the grass [s], and my child Jacob should not lie on the feather grass of the earth on poly Kulikovo ..."

    It turns out that Peresvet participated in the battle, and did not die in a duel with Chelubey, and he does not look like a black man in a schema, but a knight in gilded armor. In general, the plot with a duel appears only in the "Tale" - the latest and most legendary of all the chronicles The descriptions of the battle in different lists are very different. They fought on foot, then on horseback, then with spears, then with swords, then Peresvet reached their own, and Chelubey fell to the ground, then the Russian knight fell on top of the enemy and covered him with a robe ... does not cease to be a great warrior and hero, even if there was no fight with Chelubey, and the significance of the victory on the Kulikovo field for Russian history cannot be overestimated. Lev Nikolayevich Gumilyov expressed this very accurately:
    "Muscovites, Serpukhovites, Rostovites, Belozertsi, Smolyans, Muromans and so on came to Kulikovo Field, and the Russians left it."

    Happy holiday to all, peace and health!
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 23 February 2021 06: 51
      +8
      Agree with you. Somehow I was not very fond of Gumilev, but he is a good author.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 23 February 2021 07: 25
      +4
      Quote: Destiny
      In general, the plot with a duel appears only in the "Tale" - the latest and most legendary of all the chronicles of the Battle of Kulikovo.

      Whatever it was, but the descendants need to know about Russia, about the Russian Spirit - "Here is the Russian Spirit, here it smells of Russia!"
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 23 February 2021 08: 18
      +4
      Quote: Destiny
      How everything really happened is a mystery.

      but there is also a well-known fact: Russia has withstood and exists more thousands years.

      And this means that, of course, there were Peresvet, and Olyabya, and their followers, and they certainly won in their battles, otherwise we would simply not exist.
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 23 February 2021 10: 31
        +7
        What does the battle on the Kulikovo field have to do with the existence of Russia? Dmitry Donskoy fought for the true Chingizid against the impostor. Soon, the grateful Chingizid burned Moscow down.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 23 February 2021 15: 54
          -5
          Quote: bk0010
          What does the battle on the Kulikovo field have to do with the existence of Russia?

          Federal Law of the Russian Federation "On Days of Military Glory and Memorable Dates RUSSIA»Officially installed "The day of the victory of Russian regiments led by Grand Duke Dmitry Donskoy over the Mongol-Tatar troops in the Battle of Kulikovo."

          all in Russia "Turaks", yes, and they celebrate ... "the victory of Chingizid fool

          L.N. Gumilyov:
          "The rats of the scattered principalities went to the field of Kulikovo, and the united Russian people returned ...".


          CM. Soloviev:
          Such is the world-historical significance of the Battle of Kulikovo; in fact, in Russian history, she served as a consecration new order of thingswhich began and established itself in the northeast ..victory remained for Russia
          .

          and the textbook for the 3rd grade of primary school introduces the basics, yes ...
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 23 February 2021 21: 38
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            Day of victory of Russian regiments led by Grand Duke Dmitry Donskoy over Mongol-Tatar troops in the Battle of Kulikovo
            On the military side, there are no questions - they poked them well. The question is, what does the Battle of Kulikovo have to do with the existence of Russia?
            Quote: Olgovich
            L.N. Gumilyov:
            "The rats of the scattered principalities went to the field of Kulikovo, and the united Russian people returned ...".
            Nonsense. As the princes slaughtered each other before, and after that they continued to ravage the Russian land. The same Dmitry Donskoy destroyed Ryazan in 1382.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 24 February 2021 08: 28
              -1
              Quote: bk0010
              On the military side, there are no questions - they poked them well. The question is, what does the Battle of Kulikovo have to do with the existence of Russia?

              Soloviev, Gumilev, etc., and the textbook of the third grade of elementary school have long answered this question to the ignorant.
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 24 February 2021 20: 57
                +1
                Quote: Olgovich
                Soloviev, Gumilev, etc., and the textbook of the third grade of elementary school have long answered this question to the ignorant.
                Unconvincing. If you have nothing to say, then why are you writing? Just try to formulate the answer to the question: how would the history of Russia have changed if the Battle of Kulikovo had not taken place (provided that Tokhtamysh would have defeated Mamai in the same time frame anyway)?
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 25 February 2021 08: 35
                  -2
                  Quote: bk0010
                  Unconvincing. If you have nothing to say, then why are you writing?

                  and shouldn't I sneeze that you are "unconvincing"?

                  The significance of the Battle of Kulikovo for the formation of Russia is determined by historical science.

                  Therefore, OFFICIALLY, the state celebrates the day of the battle as the Day of Military Glory to Russia.
                  And celebrates, if it does not come, not the victory of Chingizid over Nechingizid

                  Quote: bk0010
                  Just try to formulate the answer to the question: how would the history of Russia have changed if the Battle of Kulikovo had not taken place (provided that Tokhtamysh would have defeated Mamai in the same time frame anyway)?

                  CM. Soloviev:
                  Such is the world-historical significance of the Battle of Kulikovo; in fact, in Russian history, she served as the consecration ofnew order of things, which began and established itself in the northeast..victory remained for Russia
                  1. bk0010
                    bk0010 25 February 2021 20: 50
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    she served as a sanctification to the new order of things
                    Yes, not a lot ... But thanks anyway.
  4. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 February 2021 08: 08
        0
        "How scary to live!" (FROM)
    2. Deniska999
      Deniska999 23 February 2021 07: 52
      +5
      Yes, yes, let the story remain a set of heroic and legendary stories. To hell with economics, politics to hell, reliability to hell, archeology and common sense will be forgotten altogether. But we will talk about fights, information about which is based on literary works. You will also say that there were armies of hundreds on the Kulikovo field, as it says in the Legend.
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 23 February 2021 08: 44
        +1
        ,,, and do not forget that Chelubey was not just an experienced warrior and hero, but he was a Tibetan monk who was educated according to the "mag-zal" system and achieved the status of "immortal". wink
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 February 2021 08: 51
          +7
          What kind of "tsakhal" did he go through?
          1. bubalik
            bubalik 23 February 2021 08: 56
            +1
            Magician Zal is an ancient martial art of Tibet. The peculiarity of the Magic Zal technique is the use of techniques based on the biomechanics of the human body, which allows you to win regardless of the physical and technical data of the enemy.
            ,,, Chelubey still mastered the most ancient practice of combat magic - Bon-po. As a result, he reached the heights of this initiation and acquired the status of "immortal". The phrase "Bon-po" can be translated as "school of combat magic speech", that is, the art of fighting, in which the effectiveness of fighting techniques is infinitely increased due to the attraction through magic spells of the power of powerful entities of the other world - demons (demons).
            In short, it was a duel of magicians.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 February 2021 08: 59
              +6
              In short, Tibetan Aikido.
            2. Nazar
              Nazar 23 February 2021 10: 29
              +13
              bubalik - During the uprising in China, the rebels put up about two thousand of the country's best hand-to-hand fighters against the British, and the British opposed them ... two Maxim machine guns. in total, all these Magician Tszal, Bon, and other nonsense were drained into the trash in a matter of minutes. fellow

              But seriously - there is not a single recorded case for all the wars in Asia, in which "martial arts" had at least a negligible effect on the course of the battle.
              As an example - Autumn 1945 - our grandfathers and great-grandfathers in two weeks carried out an army of millions of Japanese with all their karate and the spirit of Bushido. Japanese officers, like "samurai" - in batches, ran into captivity and fled to surrender. And yet - they helped the Tibetan lamas - "... the forces of the mighty entities of the other world ..." and supposedly possession of the most ancient military technologies to fight off the Chinese communists - eh? Or the ideas of Mao Zedong covered Tibetan magic. like a bull a sheep?
              1. bubalik
                bubalik 23 February 2021 10: 32
                +6
                ,, you all for the truth do not take what I am writing laughing hi
                1. Nazar
                  Nazar 23 February 2021 10: 58
                  +5
                  bubalik - good - my "puncture" - in parallel with reading VO - I'm fiddling around, setting the table, now the guests will come to celebrate the day of the Red Army-CA. repeat
                  1. antivirus
                    antivirus 23 February 2021 11: 11
                    +4
                    I agree. Rkka Day. Not a defender and a goalkeeper
            3. aglet
              aglet 23 February 2021 19: 45
              0
              "In short, it was a duel of magicians."
              in short, it's ridiculous. who could have compiled a biography of this chelubei, even if one imagined that he was?
          2. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 23 February 2021 09: 01
            -1
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            What kind of "tsakhal" did he go through?

            It is necessary for Albert to wait, he will explain everything, And in general, the author is wrong ... he was not "Chelebi-Bey" but "Chelebi-man" if Chelubeiman laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 February 2021 09: 03
              +2
              Everything is easier: Chelubevich
              1. Hunter 2
                Hunter 2 23 February 2021 11: 55
                -2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Everything is easier: Chelubevich

                So he was a Pole or a Belarusian belay ? Hmm ... from Belarusians I did not expect such a "pod"! request
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 February 2021 12: 15
                  -1
                  Yeah, exactly the same as von Brauchitsch.
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 23 February 2021 20: 42
                +2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Everything is easier: Chelubevich

                Or Rabinovich! laughing
        2. evgen1221
          evgen1221 23 February 2021 19: 50
          +2
          And somewhere in the back was a Khan with a tablet and a set of safe-reload units.)))
      2. lucul
        lucul 23 February 2021 10: 06
        +4
        You also say that there were armies of thousands on the Kulikovo field, as it says in the Legend

        Well, some people also stopped the Sun in order to beat the enemy longer - and nothing, they believe it)))
        I'm already silent about the "parted water")))
  5. svp67
    svp67 23 February 2021 06: 10
    +16
    All the myths are dispelled so easily and simply ...
    What for? Each nation has its own legends in the full veracity of which, of course, one can doubt, but nevertheless, on their basis, future defenders are brought up. And it has always been and will be so.
    And at the expense of the Battle of Kulikovo itself, archaeological excavations already clearly prove that it was a battle of two mounted troops, far from the number described in the annals, but nevertheless very cruel. And the main fact remains that the army of the Moscow prince Dmitry was able to defeat the army of the usurper Mamai, which greatly helped the legitimate Khan of the Golden Horde Tokhtamysh and, alas, extended her rule over the main lands of Russia for another century. Such is the grimace of history.
    And at the expense of Peresvet with Relax. I fully admit their presence in Dmitry's army. Since all his army was not collected "from pine forest". In addition to his own squad, he accepted into his detachment many squads from the Russian principalities of the then Lithuania and other "apostates", who said that the "defrocked", who finally decided to shake off the old days, could not stick to him.
    Yes, and our monasteries were not such peaceful abodes, the external situation did not allow, it was necessary to be able to both repulse and be able to collect the due tribute from their lands. Suffice it to recall that Ilya Muromets, being monks of the Pechersk Lavra, died during the defense of Kiev ... true from the Suzdal people ... But the fact remains.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 February 2021 08: 04
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      All the myths have been dispelled so easily and simply.

      Dispelled by whom? Where are they scattered?
      Which historical study?
    2. Boris55
      Boris55 23 February 2021 08: 18
      -8
      Quote: svp67
      All the myths are dispelled so easily and simply ...

      The battle was between the adherents of the old and the new faith. The aliens won.

      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 23 February 2021 08: 30
        -1
        Boris55, Is it necessary to lick here too?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 23 February 2021 08: 55
          -7
          Quote: Snail N9
          Is it necessary to lick here too?

          Why not quote him, especially since this is a topic and he has much wider opportunities to study this issue than our mortals.

          Western faith was implanted by force. The confrontation continues to this day. As long as we in Russia worship alien gods, we will not have order.
          1. Snail N9
            Snail N9 23 February 2021 09: 01
            +2
            Yes, yes, as we remember ... Polovtsi and Pechenegs ... wink The genius of "history" ....
          2. Deniska999
            Deniska999 23 February 2021 09: 01
            +6
            As we build an idol for Perun, it will immediately be + 25% to the annual GDP growth.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 23 February 2021 09: 11
              -13%
              Quote: Deniska999
              As we build an idol for Perun, it will immediately be + 25% to the annual GDP growth.

              "Perun" is an ideology. Under the influence of the ideology supported by the broad masses of the inhabitants of the USSR, and the conceptually powerful leader - Stalin, in the shortest possible time became the first economy in the world.



              Vladimir, who converted to Christianity (and a year before that - Arianism), began by capturing churches and destroying the symbols of the old faith. The "elite", the wise men (not all), for the sake of personal gain, betrayed the people. As a result of this confrontation from 12 mil. Inhabitants of Russia remained about 4. And do not tell me that these monstrous atrocities were possible only against the Indians of North America, the Aborigines of Australia, etc., but we have no, no ... Wherever the bearers of the cross came, blood was flowing everywhere. Our land is no exception.

              ps
              Why are three-dimensional symbols of faith worshiped all over the World, and we - two-dimensional?
              1. Deniska999
                Deniska999 23 February 2021 09: 22
                +1
                After all, it was a thousand years ago, and if now, in the 21st century, you try to rehabilitate ancient religions, no one will understand you. Almost nothing connects us with those people after so many tens of generations. And on what sources do you rely on the population of Russia and the losses from baptism? Are we scattering millions again?) 9th century, where does one and a half dozen million people come from?)
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 23 February 2021 09: 28
                  -8
                  Quote: Deniska999
                  After all, it was a thousand years ago, and if now, in the 21st century, you try to rehabilitate ancient religions, nobody will understand you.

                  There is no point in rehabilitating old religions. Their role is played today by the parties, BUT the truth about how we came to such a life, we must know - you cannot give up your past, your ancestors.

              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 23 February 2021 11: 59
                +8
                Quote: Boris55
                from 12 mil. Inhabitants of Russia remained about 4.

                Nonsense. In 984, according to Pyzhikov's calculations, in fact, there were originally one hundred and thirteen million three hundred sixty-three thousand four hundred thirty-nine Russians, after baptism there were one hundred and forty-one thousand two hundred fifty-seven Russians, including young children. Everything is counted. The rest were killed and eaten by Orthodox priests and traitorous magi.
                wassat
              3. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 23 February 2021 12: 03
                +5
                "Perun" is an ideology. ////
                ---
                The country adhering to this ideology is Peru.
                There was also a Perunist president in Argentina - Peron (Perun).
                All is not lost - Peru's triumphant return will begin
                Perun to the peoples of the Earth. fellow
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 23 February 2021 13: 18
                  +8
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  triumphant return will begin from Peru
                  Perun to the peoples of the Earth

                  I demand that the Thunderer God return his true, undistorted ancient name - Per (d) un. Without this, a triumphant return is impossible.
                  By the way, I propose to think about the following topic: Three-Mind-Fallen - doesn't this mean "three-headed"? Then "Triumphal Per (d) un" is the Serpent Gorynych, he is also the biblical Asp, that is, "speed denier", which means a healer, herbalist (convinced Eve to eat more vitamins), and a healer, and not the embodiment of evil.
                  1. Richard
                    Richard 23 February 2021 20: 38
                    +4
                    Three-Mind-Fallen - doesn't that mean "three-headed?"

                    It seems like Fal is not a head, but how to put it ... a slightly different organ request
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 24 February 2021 01: 08
                      +1
                      "Three-headed" can also be understood in different ways ... smile
  6. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 23 February 2021 06: 17
    +4
    Some researchers generally believe that this episode was invented later, by those who wrote the chronicles ...

    Eh Roman ... where did you get carried away ... build speculations and versions based on your ideas about history ... it's not yours ... write better about planes and tanks ... make claims to those who wrote chronicles hundreds of years ago nonsense ... I'm very disappointed with this article ... it's not professional, it's empty ... you don't have full-fledged sources for the research of historians in this area.
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 23 February 2021 07: 55
      -2
      Yes, yes, and on the Kulikovo field, 100-thousand-strong armies fought. The legend says about it)
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 23 February 2021 08: 07
      +3
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Eh Roman ... where did you take you ... build conjectures and versions based on your ideas about history

      rather based on sensations and reflections
      then fog, then water
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 23 February 2021 09: 30
        -6
        Normal article. The author is an intelligent person with an analytical mindset that does not allow unconditional belief in dogmas. Respect.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 February 2021 09: 37
          +4
          Quote: Snail N9
          The author is an intelligent person with an analytical mindset that does not allow unconditional belief in dogmas

          A dogma is a dogma to believe unconditionally.
          But this is not about the Peresvet duel.
          Here it is just not the indisputability of the lines that have come down to us.
          And the fact is that there is no factual data on the basis of which it would be possible to recreate a reliable picture.
          You can, of course, assume differently.
          This is not prohibited.
          But within the framework of fiction, with the proviso: "this is fictional fiction that does not pretend to be historical objectivity."
          And then, you see, after 10 centuries, historians will begin to refer to Skomorokhov))
  7. Dart2027
    Dart2027 23 February 2021 06: 34
    +5
    Tokhtamysh was the lesser of evils and since it was impossible to get rid of dependence on the Horde, it was better to support the khan who was not going to tear three skins from Russia, and they found a place long ago.
    As for the inaccuracies in various chronicles that have accumulated over the centuries, this is the most common thing, you can also dig up a lot of things about the Second World War, there would be a desire, and compared to the design bureau it was, as they say the other day, and the level of documentation was at a different level ...
    1. Stas1973
      Stas1973 23 February 2021 07: 07
      +7
      And then, a few years later, Tokhtamysh came and burned Moscow to FIG.
      The khan's danny was obliged to defend him. Which is exactly what happened. Then, when the tributary got a little too much, the khan came and taught. And to the priest of "three skins" - the Chingizids never extended a tax of more than tithes to the ulus djuchi (Rus).
      1. mark1
        mark1 23 February 2021 07: 54
        +1
        Quote: Stas1973
        the Chingizids never extended a tax of more than a tithe to the ulus djuchi (Rus).

        And the tribute for 12 years)? )))
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 23 February 2021 08: 41
          +2
          Quote: mark1
          And the tribute for 12 years)? )))

          What are the Mongols at the end of the XNUMXth century. under Vladimir Svyatoslavich? These are all cursed Pechenegs! Mongols are out of business here.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 February 2021 08: 54
            +5
            These are all cursed Pechenegs!
            "My darling, Pecheneg,
            Going on a raid
            What to do, at the cart,
            There is no other craft "(C)
            1. No name B
              No name B 24 February 2021 12: 43
              0
              By the way, the Pechenegs did not go anywhere, under the pressure of the Mongols they left Russia for the plains of Pannonia and founded the city of Pest. Modern Hungarians are the Pechenegs.
              1. Tamparu
                Tamparu 24 February 2021 14: 56
                0
                If so, then the Pechenegs have survived in the face of the Finno-Ugric nations ...)))
      2. Dart2027
        Dart2027 23 February 2021 13: 16
        +1
        Quote: Stas1973
        And then, a few years later

        It was like that, but at that moment he was the lesser of evils.
        Quote: Stas1973
        Chingizids never extended a tax of more than a tithe to the ulus djuchi (Rus)
        But Mamai urgently needed money.
  8. mark1
    mark1 23 February 2021 06: 44
    +5
    Now, if you consider the hunting. spear, then you can see an element such as a crossbar. It is made specifically so that if a large animal (bear, boar) is defeated, it would not be able to slip along the shaft to the hunter. I mean that the version of why Peresvet was without armor has a reason to be. The people who put it forward saw the spears not in the picture and probably poked them at each other more than once.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 23 February 2021 09: 42
      +5
      Quote: mark1
      The people who put it forward saw the spears not in the picture and probably poked them at each other more than once.

      They certainly had an idea of ​​equestrian spear fighting more accurate than the inhabitants of the 21st century))
  9. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 23 February 2021 06: 55
    +7
    Happy Defender of the Fatherland Day to all those involved in the army.
  10. Colonel
    Colonel 23 February 2021 07: 46
    +5
    I wonder where the author was sincere, in this article or when he congratulated VO readers on the holiday on the first page? I cannot admit that in both cases.
    And the result is very interesting. Most likely, there was no fight. And if it was, it was performed by completely different personalities, not Peresvet and Chelubey.
    We are dealing with the first case in Russian history of a literary creation of a propaganda nature. In the genre of heroic-patriotic, but not historical.

    That's it, easy and simple. Who will be "exposed" next time?
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 23 February 2021 07: 53
      -1
      There are many legends and enough irrational cliches)
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 23 February 2021 07: 56
        +1
        Do you consider the classic result of the "duel between Peresvet and Chelubey" an "irrational cliche"?
        1. Deniska999
          Deniska999 23 February 2021 08: 05
          +1
          No, the category is "beautiful legend".
          1. Colonel
            Colonel 23 February 2021 08: 11
            +2
            As far as I remember, the meaning of the word "legend" is something worthy of respect. And poking around in the legend, not having enough historical material, at least, is not beautiful, but on the day of the SA and the Navy it also makes three sense.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 23 February 2021 08: 59
      +3
      A person has many facets.
      The craft also involves completing tasks on time. Nothing personal.
    3. Flooding
      Flooding 23 February 2021 10: 42
      +2
      Quote: colonel
      Who will be "exposed" next time?

      Shield at the gates of Constantinople.
      Or Yaroslavna's cry.
    4. Richard
      Richard 23 February 2021 20: 59
      +5
      I wonder why Skomorokhov crowned his article about Peresvet and the Battle of Kulikovo with this illustration?

      Your assumptions, comrades
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 24 February 2021 19: 46
        0
        There are assumptions, but they are not very censorship, and I already have six warnings from Mr. Skomorokhov. I'm afraid, damn it. repeat
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 23: 20
          +1
          Quote: colonel
          and I already have six warnings from Mr. Skomorokhov. I'm afraid, damn it

          You are not alone.
  11. ver_
    ver_ 23 February 2021 08: 45
    -8
    ... Cossack Makhnov Belarusian - height 285 cm - early 20th century .. Napoleon's guard - consisted of giants, he collected them all over Europe .. (one of them put the enemy to flight), there are many weapons in the storerooms of museums (swords with blade length 250 cm. ..., giant firearms and so on ..). King of England - Richard - the lion's heart and Jesus Christ (Bogolyubsky) - 1152 .. almost the same age .. Were there giant horses? .. - judging by the legend (fairy tale) - Svyatogor - only mountains could not hold his earth ...
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 23 February 2021 12: 08
      +1
      There are many sets of armor of medieval knights in museums.
      A modern (not fat) man cannot fit into them.
      By height. The knights were short.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 23: 24
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        By height. The knights were short.

        Or armor was not invented for battle, but for decorating palace halls. I mean the complete set, from head to toe inclusive.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 25 February 2021 02: 07
          +1
          In museums, castles throughout Europe, thousands of sets of armor of all ages and all styles have been preserved. And fighting, and tournament, and ceremonial. Most - for people of small or medium height (by today's standards). There were few heroes.
  12. Korsar4
    Korsar4 23 February 2021 09: 03
    +4
    Grieved by the frivolous style of presenting thoughts. And unnecessary pathos is useless. But even Averchenko and Teffi are very far away.
  13. ee2100
    ee2100 23 February 2021 09: 50
    +4
    What are the chronicles? A work of fiction based on real events.
    It is believed that after the adoption of Christianity in Russia, everyone began to wait for the end of the world. With this, the priests intimidate not only the parishioners, but also themselves. And they did it so well that they themselves believed in it. And they began to write reports that they will have to provide during the Last Judgment. Naturally, these reports were written at some monastery or a clerical hierarch about the events that took place at that time. Over time, the realization came that the doomsday was not to be expected very soon. Chronicle reports written and what to do with them? And it was decided to use them as a propogadian material directed to the future, including to us.
    Who wrote the chronicles? Monks. How much they understood the intricacies of the politics of what was happening is a very big question, but they gave an assessment of what was happening. How many years passed from the moment of the action to its description in the chronicle that has come down to us? The chronicle is not a chronicle.
    Indeed, the annals contain fragments from previously written literary works. Much in the annals is not logical. The question arises, for whom were the chronicles written? In fact, the monks wrote for themselves. An ordinary person from the "street" will not read them.
    It is clear that it is not worth accepting the chronicle as the ultimate truth. It doesn't matter whether there was a duel before the fight or not, it is important that the future Russians won the battle.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 23: 29
      0
      Quote: ee2100
      What are the chronicles? A work of fiction based on real events.

      Verbal sequential retelling of certain events by several narrators put on paper by the final listener. When retelling, the first story could be very different from the last.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 25 February 2021 04: 20
        0
        It is your opinion
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 25 February 2021 12: 14
          0
          Quote: ee2100
          It is your opinion

          Yes, but try to prove otherwise.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 25 February 2021 14: 21
            0
            I expressed my opinion above and am not going to change it. And I see no point in discussing on this platform.
  14. Vlad world
    Vlad world 23 February 2021 09: 59
    -3
    In short. There was a dispute between two subjects about the right of succession to the Moscow throne. According to Mamai and a number of people, he had more rights to the throne. Well, there was a rumor that the prince (the future Donskoy) is not real.
    That later had in the form of an uprising in Moscow. Suppressed by Takhtomysh. At the request of Donskoy and paid by him. He paid (by sending troops to help) his wife's nephews, for their help in the capture of Moscow and suppression of the uprising.
    Here on the field with the help of military force the question of Who is Right was decided. Who had more rights. Although Donskoy not in vain changed into a simple warrior. So in those days did those who had less rights. Just in case. But he won. And later, when the Tatars completely quarreled and was raised to the shield.
    The legend is generally the fiction of those times. Moreover, it was written much later than the events.
    As for the "million-strong" troops, there were a maximum of a couple of thousand on each side.
  15. mz
    mz 23 February 2021 11: 45
    +1
    How did a monk, who, as it were, have no right to take up arms, except to defend his monastery, ended up in the army? The case itself is unique. More in the annals you will not find a case for monks to find themselves in the army, although they did take part in the battles.

    That's it. And in this case, this was not the case. If there was such a fight, then Peresvet was definitely not a monk. This was already invented by the church in order to "blur" its actual support for the Horde's power (the churches during the yoke lived better than before: the Horde abolished taxes on the church, the monasteries did not destroy, the monks did nothing but absorb food, and girls from the nearest villages were spoiled). Let me remind you that Sergius of Radonezh on this basis was in tough opposition to the Metropolitan, for whom the replacement of the Horde's power by the prince's power did not bring anything good.
  16. Doctor
    Doctor 23 February 2021 12: 40
    +5
    And it's not worth talking about fortitude, wonderful prayer and other fantastic things. The idea of ​​being pierced by a wooden drill with a steel tip does not look real, making at least some blow. Simply because the brain usually shuts down with such lesions.

    Not a fact.
    Ural, Serov, 2011. Sawmill worker planked through. Survived.



    From the literature - they survived after a through wound with a skull crowbar.
    I have personally seen survivors of a perforating gunshot wound to the skull.
    And the firearm is much worse, there is not only a wound channel, but a zone of secondary damage due to cavitation.
    1. aglet
      aglet 23 February 2021 19: 52
      +4
      "I have personally seen survivors of a perforating gunshot wound to the skull."
      there is nothing surprising here. most have nothing to be damaged there
    2. BAI
      BAI 24 February 2021 11: 59
      +1

      On September 13, 1848, Phineas Gage led a work crew to tunnel the Rutland-Burlington Railroad in Vermont.
      An iron rod entered Phineas' head above the left cheekbone, pierced the brain, past the left eye, and exited the top of the skull, piercing the frontal bone. After that, smeared with blood and brain tissue, the ram pin flew another 80 feet (about 25 meters)

      Gage survived only because the blacksmith, whom he ordered the ramming pin, made it sharpened at one end - so that the tool resembled not a crowbar, but rather a spear. The tip of this spear is 27 centimeters long and 7 mm wide. went through Phineas's skull like a needle through a sheet of paper.
      For a time, Gage made his living by playing the role of a "living museum piece" at the American Barnum Museum in New York (but not at Barnum's Circus, which later traveled across America displaying wonders like bearded women and mermaids). Anyone who wished to pay a quarter could admire the man with a hole in his skull and the famous ramming pin he held in his hands.
      The researchers found that as a result of the injury, Gage lost about 4 percent of the cortex, as well as almost 11 percent of the white matter of the brain.
  17. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 February 2021 13: 04
    +11
    Fights before a battle are generally extremely controversial. Knights in Europe, it was kind of typical, there, it happened, everything started like that - first one pair grabbed, then the second, well, let's go - the third, fifth, eighteenth ... But that is Europe.
    Something similar happened on the other side of the world - in Japan. There, battles could also begin with duels - there is evidence. It is interesting that when the Japanese warriors offered such fun to the Mongols - some samurai went out of action, they say, let's "once at a time" - the steppe inhabitants immediately riddled him with arrows, looked at each other in bewilderment and mowed down the rest of the army.
    The "Tale of Bygone Years" describes the duel of Mstislav Tmutarakansky with the Kasogian leader Rededey. How historical this evidence is is also difficult to say. In any case, it is unique, which means it is doubtful. Neither before, nor after, until the very Kulikov field, nothing of the kind is found in Russian sources. Not found after. It is not found in Mongolian or Tatar sources at all. So we can safely state that the duel before the battle was not at all a tradition, rather the opposite.
    In general, the composition of the article surprised me: at first, the author talks about the fight as if it was, and then suddenly suddenly says that it was not there ... But what for then, forgive me, a good half article to talk about the deliberate sacrificial self-splitting of Peresvet on Chelubey's spear, if that's all are they fairy tales? wassat It's like trying to analyze the content of the chess game between Napoleon and Alexander I in Tilsit, according to the results of which the rulers decided the issue of the continental blockade (and which Alexander outright lost), and then say that there was no game at all and all this is a fairy tale.
    1. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 24 February 2021 15: 08
      +2
      self-splitting

      Need to remember!!!
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 23: 40
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Fights before a battle are generally extremely controversial.

      But ... Here in Europe and Japan it is quite possible. But in the bast shoes Russia - no. You never know what is written in the annals, we are bast shoes, yesterday we just got off the tree. Therefore, all this knightly fun is not about us.
      Did I understand you correctly, Master?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 25 February 2021 00: 35
        +3
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        You never know what is written in the annals

        If you remind me in what chronicles it is written about the duels before the battle, I will gladly agree with you.
        There is only one such case in the Russian chronicles - I wrote about it. Mstislav and Rededya.
        The duel between Peresvet and Chelubey appears in the descriptions much later than the Battle of Kulikovo, I don’t remember exactly which source, now to look for laziness. But that was when the battle was already overgrown with legends.
        The chronicle simply says that Dmitry went and, with God's help, defeated Mamai at the mouth of the Nepryadva. All. No details.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        we are bast shoes, yesterday we just got off the tree

        This is exclusively your personal historical inferiority complex. I do not think that starting a battle with a duel is a sign of civilization and high culture. Rather, on the contrary, it is a sign of poor organization, superstition, etc.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        all this knightly fun is not about us.

        Stupidity and posturing. Not about us. And knightly tournaments are not about us. To wave fists wall to wall on Shrovetide is about us, but tournaments are not. Medieval courtesy with their cult of love for someone else's wife is not about us. In our country, princesses and queens gave birth only from legitimate husbands right up to the XNUMXth century. Yes, there are many other things that were not about us in Europe. And what we had was not about them. In some ways they were better, in others we.
        So think if you understood me correctly.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 25 February 2021 12: 47
          0
          Quote: Trilobite Master

          The duel between Peresvet and Chelubey appears in the descriptions much later than the Battle of Kulikovo, I don’t remember exactly which source, now

          So all the chronicles were written later than the events described in them. Moreover, also people - not participants in the events, but from a retelling. It seems to me that only "The Lay of Igor's Regiment" was written by a participant in the event.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          If you remind me in which chronicles it is written about the fights of bered

          And in the West, all battles began with a duel?
          Quote: Trilobite Master

          Stupidity and posturing. Not about us. And knightly tournaments are not about us. To wave fists wall to wall on Shrovetide is about us, but tournaments are not.

          Well.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 25 February 2021 13: 21
            +1
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            So all the chronicles were written later than the events described in them.

            Slightly. Many chronicles were written in the weather, the style of presentation and the author's handwriting changed over time. In addition, the annals were considered official documents that have legal force and were used to resolve disputes between princes, so no one would write outright nonsense in them in view of the great responsibility. This distinguishes the chronicles from literary works such as "Zadonshchina" or "Legends of the Mamayev Massacre" (from which we draw all the details, such as the battle between Peresvet and Chelubey or the attack of an ambush regiment), the authors of which were not bound by any responsibility, but only pursued their own artistically -publicistic goals.
            In fact, the chronicles were a collection of precedents - who, when and what city owned, on the basis of what, who to whom which relative, who went to whom on a campaign, what institutions the princes adopted at meetings, etc., this was their purely practical significance ...
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            It seems to me that only "The Lay of Igor's Regiment" was written by a participant in the event.

            "The Life of Alexander Nevsky", most likely, too. In any case, there are no less grounds for believing so than for the Lay. Some fragments of the Hypatiev Chronicle were also written explicitly by a participant in the events, or directly from his words - sometimes such details are described there, just like a report from the scene, while the rest of the narration goes in the usual style for the chronicler.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            And in the West, all battles began with a duel?

            Not always, but often, especially in France and Italy, the British and Germans were more practical. One knight rode out, another came out against him, they fought, then the rest gradually joined - whoever decided it himself, then a general dump began. Wild people. First, the Mongols, and later the Turks, showed them well and substantively how to do it - what discipline, a battle plan and maneuver on the battlefield are.
  18. Petrik66
    Petrik66 23 February 2021 14: 26
    +3
    The boring truth is of no interest to anyone except a narrow group of scientists. It is much better, sitting in warmth and prosperity, in 200 years to come up with some fascinating fable, and even to chop up bablos for it. And it rushed - Oslyabya and Peresvet ?! So I have a church nearby, where their relics are buried, to whom then do people go? Some symbols? invented to enhance patriotism in the 16th century?
  19. Nick Casey
    Nick Casey 23 February 2021 18: 34
    -2
    Suvorov did not cross the Alps either. Anyway, it was propaganda that invented him. Invincible — that doesn't happen.
    1. Richard
      Richard 23 February 2021 20: 52
      +2
      Let's leave A.V. Suvorov alone if, as a commander, he is not an authority for you.
      There was such a Macedonian king Pyrrhus, by the way, a relative of Alexander the Great, so he, you will not believe Nick Casey, he fought all his life, and managed not to lose a single battle yes
      1. aglet
        aglet 24 February 2021 09: 17
        +1
        "and managed not to lose a single battle"
        it is true that the Pyrrhic victory was called, for some reason
        1. Richard
          Richard 24 February 2021 16: 23
          +2
          aglet hi
          You are absolutely right
          Yes, winning a battle does not mean winning company yes
          This expression owes its origin to the Battle of Ausculus in 279 BC. e. Then the Epirus army of King Pyrrhus in two days of bloody battle defeated the Roman legions of the consuls Publius Decius Must and Gaius Fabrice Luscin (40 legionnaires) and opened their way to Rome.
          Fig.The most important victories of Pyrrhus in Italy

          There is a misconception in school textbooks that the losses of Pyrrhus were so great that he exclaimed: “One more such victory, and I will be left without an army.” This is not so, in fact, the Macedonians lost only 3500 people and 9 (out of 20) combat elephants.
          The real meaning of this expression is completely different - after the defeat at Auscula, the Roman Senate urgently concluded a military alliance with Carthage against Pyrrhus.This immediately devalued all of his Italian victories and Pyrrhus was forced to return to his homeland.
          This is where this famous Roman expression originated - "Da victoriam ut Pyrrhus, sed vincere bello" (c)
          Give the victory to Pyrrhus but win the war. In other words - Lose the battle but win the war.
          Happy holiday, dear aiguillette !!! drinks .
          Naturally, I wrote the above not for you, but for Nick Casey. You know it perfectly well without me
  20. depressant
    depressant 23 February 2021 21: 34
    +6
    Re-light ... Re-light ... Re-light ...
    Conversation. Pere-ringing. Re-nickname. This is different, it is sounds. And there is a mossy anecdote that a medvel who has learned to shout "Ay!" Will never go hungry.
    Peresvet is different. This is an exchange of light, light signals. The country in which Peresvet lived has long gone into the sky, into the boundless blue heights and with solemn endless clouds of Fata Morgana floats above us, sending its light to our land, but we do not see it. And on dark, alarming nights with flashes of lightning on the distant, barely guessed horizon, Peresvet signals us, hoping for a response ...
    Inexplicable, magical, rolling like a dream, the memory of what happened to us and does not want to leave.
    1. Richard
      Richard 23 February 2021 23: 04
      +4
      Good evening, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
      Humanly, I am simply shocked by your call among the songma of holiday congratulations to honor the memory of the defenders of the Motherland who died.
      You can't even imagine how smart you are.
      Good luck to you health and long life
      Best regards
      Dmitriy
      1. depressant
        depressant 24 February 2021 00: 20
        +2
        Dear Dmitry, thank you for your kind words and sensitive soul! hi
    2. BAI
      BAI 24 February 2021 11: 54
      +2
      And then there are the cities of Pereslavl and Pereslav.
      1. depressant
        depressant 24 February 2021 12: 40
        +1
        Yes, the names of these cities contain the inexhaustible, warm light of our ancestors. That is why Kinchev's work is so close to me. "The Sky of the Slavs", "Holy Russia" ...
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 February 2021 23: 47
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      Re-light ... Re-light ... Re-light ...

      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, give up your mathematics, grab your pen.
      Have you tried to write poetry? You should have amazing lyrics.
      Respectfully yours. love
      1. depressant
        depressant 25 February 2021 08: 25
        +1
        I can't, dear colleague Krasnoyarsk! )))
        He rarely forgives lyrics, mathematics holds, I have a huge debt to her, I groped for something there that passed the Greats, who exchanged themselves for the needs of technology - calculus, differentials, integrals, etc. ... I am obliged. And what I am doing now is mathematical poetry. Only it is very difficult, because I am a pioneer, and I have little strength and health. She lived like everyone else, but she didn't have to. A person should do what nature intended him to do, and not be justified by circumstances. I hope I have time to lay at least the foundations.
        Thank you for your kind words. love )))
        And ... Peresvet got it right in his time. And he came to the immortal finale of his life. That battle, I have no doubt that it was, - it was the true life purpose of Peresvet.
  21. BAI
    BAI 24 February 2021 10: 20
    +2
    Well, let's begin to disassemble, just not in a mess, like the author's, but in chronological order. We take as a source
    Chronicle of the Battle of Kulikovo, published according to the list of the Novgorod Karamzin Chronicle of the 603th century. (RNB, F. IV, 62). With corrections made according to the Golitsyn list of the first edition of the Novgorod Fourth Chronicle (RNB, Q. XVII, XNUMX).
    1.
    So, according to the Life of St. Sergius of Radonezh, before the Battle of Kulikovo, Prince Dmitry went to Sergius in the monastery for a blessing. Sergiy of Radonezh was, so to speak, "in trend" and the rumor about him thundered all over Russia, if not further. The blessing of such a righteous man and miracle worker was supposed to inspire all Russians to fight the Tatars.

    Later, "The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre," Sergius blessed Dmitry and sent with him two former military men, Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya.

    There was no oral blessing from Sergius. He was generally in a quarrel with the prince and refused to baptize, some relative of the prince - it seems a nephew.
    And it was:
    1.1. From Moscow Dmitry went to Kolomna - Sergius was in a completely different direction. AND:
    having prayed, go to the Most Pure and to Bishop Gerasim and says to him: "Bless me, father, to go to this accursed raw food Mamai, and the wicked Yagail, and our traitor Oleg, who stepped back from light into darkness." And Bishop Gerasim blessed the prince and his soldiers all to go against the wicked Hagarians.

    And he left Kolomna in a great crowd against the godless Tatars of the month of August on the twentieth day, trusting in the mercy of God and in his Most Pure Mother Theotokos, in the ever-virgin Mary, calling for help from the holy cross.

    He received a blessing from Bishop Gerasim of Kolomna, and not from Sergius. But what about Sergius? And so:
    1.2.
    The prince, the great, approached the Don River two days before the Nativity of the Holy Mother of God. And then a letter came with a blessing from the Monk Hegumen Sergius, from the holy elder; in it, his blessing is written - so that he fought with the Tatars: “So that you, sir, go, and God and the Holy Mother of God will help you”.

    Those. there was a letter, but an oral blessing. And not a word about Peresvet and Oslyab.
    For adherents of alternative history - pay attention to the dates and geographic places - there was NO Kulikovo battle in Moscow on Kulishki!
    2.
    And so two fighters came together. Chelubey, sort of like a Pecheneg (inaccurate) in origin, and Peresvet.

    Nobody moved in with anyone. The battle began immediately:
    The next morning on Saturday early, the month of September on the eighth day, on the very feast of the Mother of God, at the time of sunrise, there was great darkness over all the earth, and that morning was foggy until the third hour. And the Lord commanded the darkness to retreat, but granted the coming of the light. The great prince gathered his great regiments, and all his Russian princes prepared their regiments, and his great governors put on local clothes. And the mortal gates dissolved, great fear and horror seized the people gathered from afar, from the east and west. They followed the Don, to the far ends of the earth, and soon they crossed the Don in anger and fury, and so rapidly that the earthly foundation trembled with great power. The prince who came for the Don in a clean field, in Mamaev's land, at the mouth of the Nepryadva, was led by God alone, and God did not turn away from him. O strong and firm boldness of courage! Oh, how not afraid, not embarrassed in spirit, seeing so many soldiers! After all, three lands have risen to it, three ratios: the first is Tatar, the second is Lithuanian, the third is Ryazan.
    And at six o'clock in the afternoon the filthy Ishmaelites appeared in the field - and the field was open and vast. And then the Tatar regiments lined up against the Christians, and the regiments met. And, seeing each other, great forces moved, and the earth hummed, mountains and hills shook with countless soldiers. And they drew their weapons - two-edged in their hands. And the eagles flew away, as it is written - "where there are corpses, there will be gathered eagles." At the appointed hour, Russian and Tatar guard regiments first began to arrive. The great prince himself attacked the first in the guard regiments on the filthy king Calf, called the incarnate devil Mamai. However, soon after that the prince left for the great regiment. And then the great army of Mamaev moved, all the forces of the Tatar. And from our side - the great prince Dmitry Ivanovich with all the Russian princes, having made regiments, went against the rotten Polovtsi with all his army. And, looking up to heaven with prayer and filled with sorrow, he said in the words of the psalm: "Brothers, God is our refuge and strength." And immediately both great forces came together for many hours, and covered the shelves a field of ten miles - such were the many soldiers. And there was a fierce and great slaughter, and a fierce battle, and a terrible roar; Since the creation of the world, there has not been such a battle among the Russian grand dukes as with this grand prince of all Russia.

    Where is the fight? As soon as the weather allowed - a counter battle, by all means.
    3. And now, about what the author somehow did not clearly put it. We look at the list of the dead, whom the chronicler considered it necessary to highlight:

    At the same time, in that carnage, they were killed in battle: Prince Fyodor Romanovich Belozersky and his son Ivan, Prince Fyodor Tarusky, his brother Mstislav, Prince Dmitry Monastyrev, Semyon Mikhailovich, Mikula Vasiliev, son of a thousand, Mikhail Ivanov Akinfovich, Ivan Alexandrovich, Andrey Serkizov, Timofey Vasilievich Akatievich, named Voluy, Mikhail Brenkov, Lev Morozov, Semyon Melikov, Dmitry Mininich, Alexander Peresvet, formerly a boyar of Bryanskand many others, whose names are not written in these books. Here named only princes and governors, and noble and oldest boyars names, and the other boyars and servants I omitted the names and did not write because of the multitude of names, since their number is too large for me, for many were killed in that battle.

    Those. Peresvet was, but not as an envoy of Sergius, but as a simple warrior. Obviously, the same picture is with Oslabya. The fact that they were not monks confirms a simple fact - their names. Where did the monks get pagan names? It couldn't be.
    Something like that.
  22. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 24 February 2021 15: 54
    +1
    The author's opinion that there was no fight is in no way less controversial than the fact that it was. And one more remark - a monk or monk could well have been sent to battle, there is no contradiction with the customs of that time. Chernets did not have the right to fight only with Christians, take part in civil strife, but to fight with the filthy pagans was a completely godly deed, and not only in protecting the monastery. The prohibition to take up arms is in everyday life, but to fight for the holy faith - here the prohibition did not work. Moreover, it seems that the abbot of the monastery himself blessed Peresvet and Oslyabya.
  23. With Petrovsky
    With Petrovsky 24 February 2021 19: 39
    +1
    The author's conclusion is completely unrelated to the above.
  24. 9 Shaft
    9 Shaft 24 February 2021 22: 29
    0
    In Orthodox literature I read that the adversary was trained in a Tibetan monastery and was considered immortal, i.e. it was not possible to defeat him. But what is not possible for people is possible for God. Therefore, there was a monk on the part of the Russians. Strong, courageous, experienced, spiritually ready for such a feat. In total, we will not know how it was, but is it necessary? For me personally, the result of the fight and the impact on both sides do not raise doubts. Who too philosophizes turns out to be in ward 6!
  25. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 24 February 2021 23: 25
    0
    The respected Roman raised an interesting topic, but very superficially about the faith and monks, if not only the novice, but also the priest can take the sword in his hands, there are enough examples of the heroism of the priests, and not only in the defense of the monastery, but even more so in the defense of the fatherland. As for the historical truth, there are several ancient sources describing the duel of Peresvet with Chelubey, so after a few centuries to cancel this fact due to empty reasoning = it is contrary to history and science. And there are also different fathoms, for example, potatoes are planted every 30 cm.
  26. Temnukhin Anton
    Temnukhin Anton 25 February 2021 20: 24
    0
    Good article. I read it with interest. But as a reenactor I can’t ignore our "battle painting" :) the eye was too stung that the very first illustration in the article about the battle of the 14th century is a daub depicting some kind of unknown crap from the middle of the 17th century.