Military Review

Six rifles and two cartridges. ROC "Ugolyok"

104

Shooting from SVD - the main sniper rifle of the Russian army. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation


Over the past several years, the leading enterprises of our armory industries are developing a sniper complex with the code "Ugolyok". The main part of the development work has already been completed, and next year the finished samples will go to state tests. The Ministry of Defense plans to compare the new rifles and choose the most successful one for further rearmament of snipers.

New family


The start of the ROC "Ugolek" was announced in February 2019. The goal of the program is to create a sniper complex with a number of characteristic features. It is required to develop two unified self-loading rifles for different cartridges with a set of additional equipment. At the request of the Ministry of Defense, all components of such a complex must be of Russian origin. In fact, it was about the further improvement of the development of the ROC "Tochnost" and about the rejection of imported components.

The customer demanded to create new weapons for foreign cartridges - .308 Win (7,62x51 mm) and .338 Lapua Magnum (8,6x70 mm). It was also planned to develop new sights and other components of the rifle complex. It was reported about the possibility of creating new modifications of cartridges in given calibers.

The leading developers of small arms - TsNIITOCHMASH, the Kalashnikov concern and TsKIB SOO from the Tula KBP - were involved in the work on the Ugolek R&D project. Each of these organizations must present two new types of rifles. To date, the developers have managed to disclose some of the information about their rifles, but the full appearance of such products has not yet been revealed.


Microwave rifle chambered for .308 Win. Photo Concern "Kalashnikov"

Two years ago, the management of TsNIITOCHMASH reported that Ugolek rifles were not intended to replace existing SVD products. A promising weapon will have to supplement the available systems and provide confident fire at long ranges, from 800 m. However, later the press repeatedly reported that "Ugolki" would still become a replacement for the SVD. The real plans of the Ministry of Defense in this regard are still unknown.

Applicants for victory


At the Army-2017 forum, the Kalashnikov concern presented for the first time the Chukavin SHCh sniper rifle. At that time, versions of weapons were offered for the domestic cartridge 7,62x54 mm R and for the foreign .308 Win. A few months later, they showed a version of the weapon for ammunition .338 LM. Later it became known that the microwave project would be involved in the Ugolek R&D project, and the two presented versions of the rifle would be further developed.

In the same 2017, the premiere of the OTs-129 rifle from TsKIB SOO took place, which was later included in the ROC "Ugolyok". This weapon used the .308 Win cartridge, and the possibility of creating new modifications was not excluded. Not so long ago, a civilian version of the rifle called the MC-556 was brought to the market. Right now, TsKIB SOO is finalizing the basic model for the special requirements of the new program of the Ministry of Defense.

TSNIITOCHMASH is in no hurry to reveal the appearance of its Ugolyok rifles, although it regularly talks about certain works. So, already in April 2019, the start of testing of experimental rifles was announced. At that time, it was planned to determine the real range and accuracy of fire, as well as evaluate the penetrating effect of bullets. Later it became known about the rejection of the principle of unification: rifles for different cartridges will differ from each other. They also reported about the possibility of creating a civilian version of the army "Ugolok".


Microwave product for .338 LM. Photo Concern "Kalashnikov"

In process


According to the results of the current stage of the ROC "Ugolyok", three enterprises should create and submit for comparative tests at once six rifles - two samples of different caliber from each. The current state of affairs in different projects is not completely clear, although there is some information that is conducive to optimism.

At least some of the promising sniper rifles have been successfully brought to factory tests. Thus, the microwave and OTs-129 products in the version for both required ammunition could be tested and fine-tuned even before the start of the Ugolyok program. However, some of the modifications had to be developed after the launch of a new ROC, and they needed to be tested. The same applies to two rifles from TsNIITOCHMASH, the development of which started much later.

The enterprises participating in the project continue to work and prepare for new events. So, the other day TSNIITOCHMASH announced the beginning of the production of experimental rifles of a new type. This year they are planned to be sent for preliminary tests. State tests will begin in 2022.

Expected results


Next year, the army will have to test and compare a number of promising sniper systems, including a number of new components, and choose the most successful in their calibers. They will be put into service and then go into series with the aim of re-equipping some units of the army.


The MP-556 rifle is a civilian version of the OTs-129 sniper rifle. Photo Modernfirearms.net

What rifles will go to the troops and how they will surpass competitors is unknown. However, some of the results of the ROC "Ugolyok" are already clear. Through the implementation of this program, industry and the armed forces will receive certain benefits of various kinds.

The Ugolek project is interesting for the industry, first of all, due to the expected large orders for the series. In addition, within the framework of this R&D, enterprises have the opportunity to improve their competencies in the field of sniper rifles and related products. In recent years, serious progress has been observed in this area, but it is still a long way from world leadership - and for this it is necessary to create and improve new models.

According to the results of the ROC "Ugolyok" our army for the first time in several decades will receive fundamentally new sniper systems. They are created taking into account the actual needs and requirements of the army, as well as using modern materials and technologies, which in itself gives significant advantages. In addition, all components will be manufactured in our country, which will protect the rearmament from problems with imports.

Apparently, rifles of the Ugolyok family will surpass the existing SVD and its modifications in terms of basic characteristics. First of all, an increase in fire parameters is expected due to the use of a more powerful foreign cartridge or its promising analogue of domestic development. There are also opportunities to improve ergonomics and other performance.


A promising rifle chambered for .338 LM from TsNIITOCHMASH. Photo Bastion-karpenko.ru

Earlier it was reported that the Ugolek rifle complex would become part of the modernized combat equipment of the Ratnik serviceman. This BEV includes modern means of communication and control, which make it possible to more fully reveal the potential of weapons and increase the efficiency of the shooter's work. In the future, the Ugolyok rifles can also go into the promising Sotnik equipment.

However, in order to obtain all these results, it is necessary to complete the development of projects, compare them and establish mass production of the best sample with subsequent deliveries to the troops. The current stage of the Ugolek R&D project is planned to be completed no later than 2022-23, and then the rearmament of combat units will begin. A sufficient share of new weapons in the troops will be achieved even later.

Experience and perspective


In recent years, domestic enterprises have developed a number of modern sniper systems and have accumulated solid experience. However, due to the lack of developments in some areas, it was necessary to rely on foreign materials, technologies and components. Now it is proposed to use existing experience, improve existing weapons and refuse to import.

Work on such a task continues and is already yielding the desired results in the form of experimental weapons. It is not known which of the proposed models the army will choose. But it is already clear that ongoing development work will be beneficial for both the military and gunsmiths.
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 22 February 2021 04: 59
    +9
    father used SVD, uncle, son, nephew, ... "Eternal" rifle looks like ... up to a hundred years will probably serve.
  2. Sergey_G_M
    Sergey_G_M 22 February 2021 05: 08
    +12
    I do not understand what is the point of a rifle under .308 Win (7,62x51 mm) when there is a 7,62x51R in service, it has been worked out in production, there are reserves and is in no way inferior in ballistics.
    We don't have an analogue of the 338 Lapua Magnum (8,6x70 mm), and it's quite a sensible idea to consider it for a sniper rifle.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 22 February 2021 05: 12
      +5
      7,62 versus 308 - Sleeve thickness
      Measuring the thickness of the case demonstrates significant differences between the two cartridges, which is clearly demonstrated when comparing the weights of the different cases below:
      Hornady .308: 169,6 grains
      Winchester .308: 163,3 grains
      Lake City 7.62x51mm NATO: 183,5 grains
      This is a significant difference! Thicker walls, combined with similar external dimensions, mean lower propellant capacity and a lower neck neck, as well as lower pressure and velocity.
      1. Sergey_G_M
        Sergey_G_M 22 February 2021 05: 15
        +5
        ".308 Win (7,62x51 mm) when there is 7,62x51R"
        I described myself, I meant 7,62x54R (our welted)
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 16 March 2021 15: 50
        0
        Quote: Dead Day
        7,62 versus 308 - Sleeve thickness
        Case Thickness Measurement Shows Significant Differences Between The Two Cartridges

        and where is the difference? I, too, can write various unsubstantiated garbage.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly April 20 2021 16: 57
          0
          It is written that in the weight of the empty case and the volume of the powder mantle, a different bullet ballistics is expected ..
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 27 2021 18: 26
            0
            Quote: AlexFly
            It is written that in the weight of the empty case and the volume of the powder mantle, a different bullet ballistics is expected ..

            measure the plastic (latest developments) and steel, the difference in weight will be even greater. These are two different names for the same cartridge. in the weapons world, this is a common story.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 22 February 2021 07: 36
      +5
      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      I do not understand what is the point of a rifle under .308 Win (7,62x51 mm) when there is a 7,62x51R in service

      I agree with you
      the meaning of using 7,62x51 also escapes me
      1. Izotovp
        Izotovp 22 February 2021 11: 18
        +2
        Apparently, there is a smooth transition to the NATO cartridge. It remains only to wait until NATO members decide on an intermediate cartridge and see the reaction of our manufacturers.
      2. FRoman1984
        FRoman1984 23 February 2021 06: 58
        +2
        Quote: Flood
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        I do not understand what is the point of a rifle under .308 Win (7,62x51 mm) when there is a 7,62x51R in service

        I agree with you
        the meaning of using 7,62x51 also escapes me

        The point is that in the 308th cartridge, the sleeve in the chamber is held by the shoulders, and in the 54th - by the welt. This is the key difference. For a machine gun, it doesn't matter, accuracy is not important there, but for a sniper rifle, the 54th cartridge is a dead-end path to nowhere.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 16 March 2021 15: 56
          -1
          Quote: FRoman1984
          The point is that in the 308th cartridge, the sleeve in the chamber is held by the shoulders, and in the 54th - by the welt. This is the key difference.

          Everything rests on the design of the chamber of a particular weapon and the accuracy of the manufacture of the cartridge case. And there is also a way to hold the front edge of the neck. And yet the same weapon uses a different method at different times ... So your statements have no real meaning.
          1. FRoman1984
            FRoman1984 17 March 2021 07: 48
            0
            Quote: 4-th Paradise
            Quote: FRoman1984
            The point is that in the 308th cartridge, the sleeve in the chamber is held by the shoulders, and in the 54th - by the welt. This is the key difference.

            Everything rests on the design of the chamber of a particular weapon and the accuracy of the manufacture of the cartridge case. And there is also a way to hold the front edge of the neck. And yet the same weapon uses a different method at different times ... So your statements have no real meaning.

            Do you even understand what you said? This "leading edge of the neck" is called the "shoulders" of the sleeve. And the accuracy / repeatability of the liner has nothing to do with it. Even taking a Lapua sleeve will not change anything. Why? Read my comment above again.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 14 2021 16: 52
              -1
              Quote: FRoman1984
              This "leading edge of the neck" is called the "shoulders" of the sleeve.

              you can immediately see a specialist who, apart from the terms, knows nothing ...
              the liner also has a front plane formed by a cut of the liner walls. Where are the shoulders of 9x19? no, but the "leading edge of the neck" is. I don’t remember what it’s called, it popped out of my head. But it's like with a gopher ...
              So there are 3 ways to hold the cartridge. Learn materiel.
              1. FRoman1984
                FRoman1984 April 24 2021 22: 13
                0
                Quote: 4-th Paradise
                Quote: FRoman1984
                This "leading edge of the neck" is called the "shoulders" of the sleeve.

                you can immediately see a specialist who, apart from the terms, knows nothing ...
                the liner also has a front plane formed by a cut of the liner walls. Where are the shoulders of 9x19? no, but the "leading edge of the neck" is. I don’t remember what it’s called, it popped out of my head. But it's like with a gopher ...
                So there are 3 ways to hold the cartridge. Learn materiel.

                It is immediately evident that you do not know anything from the word "absolutely". And you also enter the discussion, and here you are trying to teach something. Complete profanity. The sleeve at 9x19 is also held by a welt (flange). This is a PP gauge and is not highly accurate. Up to 100-200 meters, if we are talking about a submachine gun. "The leading edge of the neck", do not disgrace
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly April 20 2021 16: 58
          0
          Not a problem for a bolt, but more for automation ...
    3. psiho117
      psiho117 23 February 2021 02: 15
      +3
      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      I do not understand what is the point of a rifle under .308 Win (7,62x51 mm) when there is a 7,62x51R

      The fact that in the development of the sniper business (not the Marksman one, but the sniper one), the West overtook us long ago, and by a large margin.
      Can you name at least one high-precision rifle for 7,62x54?
      there are stocks
      Stocks of what? cartridges with an LPS bullet?
      and is in no way inferior in ballistics.

      It's not about the ballistics of the gross cartridge. The point is in special sniper ammunition, which simply do not exist under 7,62x54 (what is - bullshit).
      Thousands of firms, firms, and just amateur shooters are engaged in the development of sniper ammunition for high-precision shooting. We have only one private enthusiast Lobaev.
      I'm not even talking about the time that will be required for such a labor feat - but it will be a feat because a lot of effort will be required (no capsules, no cartridges, no gunpowder, no bullets), and the developer will not receive exhaust - these cartridges are required very little, it is economically unprofitable to produce them.
      Therefore, it makes sense to use for a high-precision rifle what works well and has been worked out for decades - and not in agony and cramps, under the conditions of sanctions, to try to develop and then launch the production of our own high-precision ammunition under 7,62x54.
      1. Disant
        Disant 23 February 2021 18: 08
        -3
        It's not about the ballistics of the gross cartridge. The point is in special sniper ammunition, which simply do not exist under 7,62x54 (what is - bullshit).

        justify what cartridges you do not have.
        or your comment will be like lobbying someone's interests to diminish the merits of the SVD.
        Do you understand that even the manufacturer of SVD is interested in reducing the advantages of SVD?
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 24 February 2021 00: 42
          +2
          Quote: Disant
          advantages of SVD

          What does the SVD have to do with it?
          SVD is a DMR, a weapon of Marksman, "infantry marksman"
          With a sniper weapon - she wasn’t lying next to me. She has her own niche.
          justify what cartridges you do not have

          High-precision - none. You can justify something that exists. To justify the absence ... How's that?
          Do you understand that even the manufacturer of SVD is interested in reducing the advantages of SVD?

          I understand, but all this nonsense, with the annual attempts to replace the SVD with a bolt, then a microwave, or some new rifle under the "LM" - I do not share, and I consider it a cruel heresy.
          1. Disant
            Disant 24 February 2021 09: 23
            +2
            What does the SVD have to do with it?

            you write about the cartridge for the SVD. I made it special.
            Sniper cartridge for SVD 7N1 - there is very good accuracy. And people write about 2 and 1 MOA and compare the gross cartridge for SVD and imported sniper cartridges for bolts.
            .
            I understand, but all this nonsense, with the annual attempts to replace the SVD with a bolt, then a microwave, or some new rifle under the "LM" - I do not share, and I consider it a cruel heresy.

            I completely share your opinion. The screamers broke loose. In each article there is an unreasonable bulk on the SVD, without offering anything in return AT LEAST EQUAL, if they were so impatient to replace one with another.
            .
            Give everyone in their dreams a skyscraper, XNUMXth floor, Dolph Lundgren with a two-meter rifle in a bare room and a target in the form of a motorcade at a distance of five blocks. And the fact that you will need to put a rifle with a sight a hundred times on trees, vehicles, earth, change the night light ten times to a day sight and back in ten days, and so on without stopping and without the possibility of reconciliation - no, none of this new idolaters does not care - here is my bed, here is my case - raise the targets.
            1. psiho117
              psiho117 24 February 2021 10: 55
              +1
              Quote: Disant
              Sniper cartridge for SVD 7N1 - there is very good accuracy.

              Wrong. I would understand if you cited as an example some kind of hunting, such as "Extras" with a 13g bullet, or, nakraynyak 7H14 arr. 1999, - but the 7N1, of the 1967 model, is a wildly outdated cartridge.
              This is an armor-piercing cartridge of increased accuracy, for an infantry sniper armed with SVD - with the expectation of shooting at targets in body armor, and the defeat of lightly armored vehicles (like 7H14, only there is a heat-strengthened core).
              The bullet consists of a bimetallic shell and a combined core (steel core made of steel grade St.10 in the bullet head and a lead core).
              In terms of ballistics, it is similar to the LPS, and does not require differences in the marking of sighting devices.
              The tolerances for the manufacture of sniper bullets have been halved compared to bullets of bulk rifle cartridges.
              Shooting accuracy, R100 at a distance of 300m:
              with a groove pitch of 320 mm - 8sm
              and with a groove pitch of 240 mm R100cp - no more 10 см
              These are the 1938 standards, if anything.

              A modern sniper weapon can be considered only one that provides a dispersion of shots no more than 1 MOA, i.e. not more than one arc minute - this corresponds to a diameter of 300 m, equal to 8,7 cm. Add to this the dispersion of the cartridge, and at a distance of 500-600 m we will get a bullet deflection of 40 cm or more.
              It is unacceptable.
              1. Disant
                Disant 24 February 2021 21: 39
                0
                Shooting accuracy, R100 at a distance of 300m:
                with a groove step 320 mm - 8cm
                and with a groove pitch of 240 mm R100cp - no more than 10 cm

                Well, this deterioration is the payment for omnivorousness.
                .
                and yet 10cm by 300m is practically close to YOUR MODERN REQUIREMENTS of 1 MOA - 8.7cm by 300m.
                These are not "two bad MOAs on SVD", as honest people are trying to convince! THREE IS NOT SIX!
                .
                More ancient SVD fully meet YOUR REQUIREMENTS IN 1 MOA - 8cm by 300m.
                .
                So, are we adopting the "old" SVD and drank down the drain?
                .
                at a distance of 500-600m we will get a bullet deflection of 40cm and more.
                any shot from ANY rifle can be ruined if disrupted.
                1. psiho117
                  psiho117 24 February 2021 22: 46
                  0
                  Quote: Disant
                  and nevertheless, 10cm by 300m is practically close to YOUR MODERN REQUIREMENTS IN 1 MOA

                  sniper weapon accuracy composed from many components, but in this case we are talking about 2 of them:
                  cartridge accuracy + rifle accuracy.
                  Not just one. It is not enough to have only an accurate cartridge or only an accurate rifle, it is necessary that both are harmoniously combined.
                  Unfortunately, high-precision army ammunition for 7,62x54 simply does not exist (civilians do exist, but they are of little use for military purposes, and are used mainly by anti-terror units)
                  So, we are adopting the "old" SVD and drank down the drain

                  And it did not seem to be filmed bully
                  The accuracy of a regular SVD, with the most common 240mm rifling pitch, cannot be less than 1,24 MOA, for rifles with a 320mm rifling pitch - 1,04 MOA (for a sniper cartridge, of course).
                  She simply will not pass acceptance with the worst result.
                  And maybe even better - it depends on the party. The accuracy of the battle of rifles made in the 60s was unusually high: it was often possible to find specimens with an accuracy of 3x2cm at a distance of 100m. And from especially successful games, a good shooter gave an accuracy of 0,5 MOA.
                  On modern SVDM, a thickened barrel hung out with a rifling pitch of 320mm ... Accuracy - a minute or less.
                  The same thing with custom chassis for SVD - a well-tailored lightweight rifle has an accuracy of less than 1 MOA.
                  To carry out the tasks of an infantry shooter - this is enough with a head, so the SVD (SVDM) foreva!

                  Another question - "sniper" bolt rifles - their niche neither with the SVD nor with the cartridge 7,62x54 does not intersect in any way, and require their own, separate high-precision ammunition. Due to the circumstances, it will be exclusively foreign ammunition and calibers.
                  Alas, but such is the selyavi. hi
                  1. Disant
                    Disant 25 February 2021 11: 50
                    0
                    And she didn't seem to be filmed bully

                    I meant rifles of the old years of production with a different rifling pitch.
                    do you think there is something alive on your hands? I doubt
                    Unfortunately, high-precision army ammunition for 7,62x54 simply does not exist.

                    let it be your way. But there is no replacement for the SVD in its class.
                    .
                    a well-pushed rifle with a light weight has an accuracy of less than 1 MOA.

                    what do you mean - shamanic
                    .
                    Another question - "sniper" bolt rifles - their niche neither with the SVD nor with the cartridge 7,62x54 does not intersect in any way

                    Well, you seem to be in the subject - what do you think in a similar caliber, mass and dimensions is next to the SVD, but better in accuracy and range compared ? (Even a bolt rifle - but it is in service with any army)
                    1. psiho117
                      psiho117 25 February 2021 22: 10
                      +1
                      Quote: Disant
                      do you think there is something alive on your hands? I doubt

                      Well, you have PMs from the 50s, right? and with SVD - not in such numbers, of course, but come across.
                      what do you mean - shamanic

                      You score in the search for "modernization of SVD" - and your eyes run up
                      Basically - they hang out the barrel, put a bipod, an adjustable stock, picatinny bars.
                      If you go further, they change the barrel to a thicker one (for example, from SV-98), change the stock to
                      here is an aluminum "chassis"

                      adjust the internal kinematics, replace the trigger with a more accurate one, etc.
                      We get these sweets:


                      What do you think in a similar caliber, mass and dimensions is next to the SVD, but better in accuracy and range in comparison?
                      There is no need to replace it.
                      The SVD is an ideal marksman rifle - as reliable as an AK, and with not very big efforts to modernize it - also with accuracy at the level of the best foreign analogues.
                      It's just that you can't cut down the dough on modernization - but on a complete replacement with something else, you can profit well. Hence all this information noise, about the supposedly outdated SVD.
                      how the barrel can be hung out - it has the same connection to the gas pipe

                      it is still considered posted, just at 2 points. Yes, it's not as perfect as on bolts, but still, much better than if it is glued into the stock.
                      1. Disant
                        Disant 26 February 2021 02: 39
                        0
                        The SVD is an ideal marksman rifle - as reliable as an AK, and with not very big efforts to modernize it - also with accuracy at the level of the best foreign analogues.

                        Well, and? when you have already squeezed out of yourself the word about SVD - SNIPER?
                        laughing
                      2. psiho117
                        psiho117 26 February 2021 16: 19
                        0
                        She is not a sniper bully
                        It's just that in our Soviet-Russian classification there is no analogue of the word "marksman" (infantry shooter) - in our country he is considered a sniper, and accordingly the weapon of this very shooter is called a "sniper rifle" instead of DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle - literally - nominated rifleman ).
                      3. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 16 March 2021 16: 39
                        0
                        Quote: psiho117
                        It's just that in our Soviet-Russian classification there is no analogue to the word "marksman" (infantry shooter) - in our country he is considered a sniper

                        not entirely true. In the USSR, there were 2 types of snipers: a squad sniper (faced with several variants of the name) and just a sniper. In the early 60s, my father served in a reconnaissance company in the Airborne Forces. They had a squad of snipers reporting directly to the company commander. He cannot say the number of people, he is still over 80, old ... There were snipers in the GRU. There is also unconfirmed information about sniper units subordinate to the headquarters of the Okrugs, but most likely they were specialists from the GRU.
                        If everyone is used to calling the squad snipers incorrectly, this does not mean that there is no name.
              2. Disant
                Disant 25 February 2021 12: 05
                +1
                To carry out the tasks of an infantry shooter - this is enough with a head, so the SVD (SVDM) foreva!

                I completely agree.
                On modern SVDM, a suspended thickened trunk

                how the barrel can be hung out - it has the same connection to the gas pipe
              3. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok 16 March 2021 16: 22
                0
                Quote: psiho117
                The accuracy of a regular SVD, with the most common 240mm rifling pitch, cannot be less than 1,24 MOA, for rifles with a 320mm rifling pitch - 1,04 MOA (for a sniper cartridge, of course).
                She simply will not pass acceptance with the worst result.

                and brains that it is necessary to return the rifling step to 320mm and for a start to revive the release of sniper cartridges does not reach? As a last resort, you can try to buy a shop for the production of bullets in the west. This is cheaper and much more promising for the state than switching to enemy cartridges without localizing production. And what if, because of sanctions or God forbid war, the supply of imported cartridges stops?
                1. psiho117
                  psiho117 18 March 2021 02: 28
                  0
                  Quote: 4-th Paradise
                  but brains that it is necessary to return the rifling step to 320mm

                  For a long time already - SVDM
                  revive the release of sniper cartridges

                  With this it is more difficult - the warriors for some reason stubbornly deny the need for a sniper cartridge in this caliber, they believe that for their purposes - 7H14 and 7N1 are enough.
                  There are civilian high-precision cartridges - but they are not suitable for the military.
                  switching to enemy cartridges without localizing production.
                  How is it - without localization? 7,62x51mm NATO, also, in my opinion, under Brezhnev, they began to produce in the USSR (Or it was 7,62x63 ... I don't remember exactly repeat ).
                  But the bottom line is that all these enemy calibers are successfully produced in Russia.
                  1. Scoutbat
                    Scoutbat April 25 2021 15: 19
                    +1
                    7,62x51mm NATO has never been produced in our country. It was produced 7,62x51mm, like a copy of the 308 Winchester, but even then they adjusted the dimensions and pressures (which, however, is forgivable IMHO, the first fact of reengineering ammunition in the USSR, after all), but 7,62x51mm NATO and 308 Vin are different cartridges, unilaterally replaceable - any 308x7,62mm NATO can be used in 51 wines, but not vice versa. Since the beginning of the 1990s, the domestic cartridge industry began to produce the 7,62x51 cartridge according to the international standard (CIP), and, in order not to be confused with the old cartridge, they decided to name them as follows: the old Soviet 7,62x51 A, the new "Western" - 7,62x51 M ("modernized").

  3. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 16 March 2021 16: 09
    0
    Quote: psiho117
    The fact that in the development of the sniper business (not the Marksman one, but the sniper one), the West overtook us long ago, and by a large margin.

    so let's switch to 50 caliber and make a copy of Bareth for an army sniper. No need to talk nonsense.
    Quote: psiho117
    It's not about the ballistics of the gross cartridge. The point is in special sniper ammunition, which simply do not exist under 7,62x54 (what is - bullshit).
    Thousands of firms, firms, and just amateur shooters are engaged in the development of sniper ammunition for high-precision shooting. We have only one private enthusiast Lobaev.

    and again delirium. we have a good sniper cartridge. The problem is that after replacing the barrel with SVD with a change in the length of the rifling for firing machine-gun cartridges (this was back in 1964), its production was stopped in the early 80s. But even in this version and with machine-gun cartridges, according to US ILC snipers, its accuracy at a distance of more than 600 m surpasses American standard sniper rifles under .308.
    Apparently, the person from the Ministry of Defense who is engaged in snipers either simply received a rollback, or is not an expert in the matter. That's the whole reason. just the statement "to increase accuracy when shooting more than 800 meters" is worth it.
  • Deck
    Deck 22 February 2021 06: 06
    +4
    fire parameters are expected to increase


    I wonder what this means? He alone knows what the author wanted to say. In general, the creation of all these pieces of iron is more like cutting a budget. A rifle is created around a cartridge, and a high-precision cartridge needs stable high-energy propellants, high-quality capsules, and most importantly, bullets with a high BC or, more precisely, brass cups to produce bullets of the required quality. To produce this, you need to improve the quality of several industries. All this is something that is not observed.
    1. Operator
      Operator 22 February 2021 09: 22
      -14%
      All three studies will not take off due to the repetition of the traversed - the gas outlet scheme of the SVD with firing accuracy plus or minus bast shoes.

      In sniper rifles, a semi-free bolt drives bully
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 22 February 2021 11: 48
        +2
        Quote: Operator
        In sniper rifles, a semi-free bolt drives

        What rules, if not a secret?
        1. Operator
          Operator 22 February 2021 12: 41
          -8
          A suspended trunk, however.
      2. Korax71
        Korax71 22 February 2021 15: 11
        +2
        was already PSG 1, with an accuracy of 1 minute with a weight of 7-8 kg, depending on the modification. The SR-25, having a gas pipeline system like a Stoner's rifle, was in no way inferior in accuracy, only weighed about 5 kg and the same 308 caliber. Fits nicely into submachine guns, shoving it into everything else - reinventing the bicycle once again.
        1. Operator
          Operator 22 February 2021 17: 32
          -4
          PSG-1 age - half a century, SR-25 accuracy - 2 MOA
          https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/sr/us/sr25-sr110/
      3. Kalmar
        Kalmar 24 February 2021 12: 06
        0
        Quote: Operator
        All three studies will not take off due to the repetition of the traversed - the gas outlet scheme of the SVD with firing accuracy plus or minus bast shoes.

        The microwave has the same gas outlet and the declared accuracy of the order of 1 MOA. In general, assembling now a self-loading with a bunch of about a minute is more of a production problem (tolerances, clearances, that's all), and greater accuracy for such a rifle is not really needed.

        Quote: Operator
        In sniper rifles, a semi-free bolt drives

        Um, I don't remember a single one right off the bat. Some modifications of the G3, perhaps.
        1. Operator
          Operator 24 February 2021 12: 49
          -3
          Microwave with 1 MOA is fantastic.

          Semi-free bolt self-loading rifles require an entire article, which will appear only after articles on pistols and submachine guns laughing
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 24 February 2021 13: 26
            0
            Quote: Operator
            Microwave with 1 MOA is fantastic

            Why? There are even more "heaped" self-loading, here, too, nothing, in principle, does not interfere (if production does not fail).

            Quote: Operator
            Semi-free bolt self-loading rifles require a whole article

            Well, I'm not asking for an article, just name a few models.
            1. Operator
              Operator 24 February 2021 13: 58
              -3
              Above, I cited a link to the fact that the self-loading sniper rifle of Eugene Stoner with a gas engine in military operation was never able to provide the declared accuracy of 1 MOA. The same will inevitably await Chukavin's rifle - the gas outlet of the barrel spoils the whole picture with the latter hanging out.

              Known models of weapons with a semi-free bolt are made with roller shutter braking, and it is necessary with a ball one - in order to work the structural material (steel) of the receiver in the most favorable load mode (tension).

              After that, the rifle with a semi-free bolt will be equal in weight to a rifle with a gas engine.

              This is what a whole article is required for.
              1. Kalmar
                Kalmar 24 February 2021 15: 00
                0
                Quote: Operator
                Above, I cited a link to the fact that the self-loading sniper rifle of Eugene Stoner with a gas engine in military operation was never able to provide the declared accuracy of 1 MOA.

                AND? There are also bolt rifles that do not issue 1MOA, but this does not mean that the "bolt" cannot be high-precision.

                Quote: Operator
                The same will inevitably await Chukavin's rifle - the gas outlet of the barrel spoils the whole picture with the latter hanging out.

                Gas disposal affects, but how much is a separate question. Sub-minute self-recharging in nature exists, after all. There will be tests - it will become visible.

                Quote: Operator
                Known models of weapons with a semi-free bolt are made with roller shutter braking, and it is necessary with a ball one - in order to work the structural material (steel) of the receiver in the most favorable load mode (tension).

                Should this be understood in such a way that a sniper rifle with a semi-breechblock, superior to gas-operated counterparts, does not exist in nature?
                1. Operator
                  Operator 24 February 2021 18: 55
                  0
                  PSG-1 has 1 MOA accuracy
                  https://yandex.ru/turbo/warfor.me/s/snajperskie-vintovki-heckler-koch-psg-1-msg-90-i-sl-9-sd-frg/
                  1. 4thParasinok
                    4thParasinok 16 March 2021 17: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Operator
                    PSG-1 has 1 MOA accuracy
                    https://yandex.ru/turbo/warfor.me/s/snajperskie-vintovki-heckler-koch-psg-1-msg-90-i-sl-9-sd-frg/

                    have you read this article yourself?
                    In addition, there is an opinion that the rifle is of little use for military use... And not only because of the heavy weight of the weapon.
                    According to some experts, some PSG 1 nodes are too "delicate" for use in harsh military conditions.
                    and more:
                    A significant disadvantage of the weapon is its large mass. But this is not the main drawback. In practice, the clearly inflated cost of European weapons has become the rule. PSG 1 rifle with "Hendsoldt" scope (the only one available for this model), "Logo Systems" tripod and other small accessories costs more than $ 8000., which, in principle, may be suitable for some special forces, however, it is clearly beyond the financial capabilities of most law enforcement agencies and the army.
                    Weight, kg 7,2 (without magazine) and 7,48 (with empty magazine).
              2. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok 16 March 2021 16: 53
                0
                Quote: Operator
                Known models of weapons with a semi-free bolt are made with roller shutter braking, but it is necessary with a ball

                1. What kind of education do you have and how much did it cost? How long will the bolt group fall apart and how much will the production cost? It is clear that in theory you can come up with anything you want, but with practice it will be at odds with the word suck.
                2. I know at least 2 more shutter options. FAMAC and we had a worker ...
                Hmm, writing articles is not to roll bags ...
      4. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 16 March 2021 16: 45
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        In sniper rifles, a semi-free bolt drives

        he does not steer anywhere from the word at all. Even the French are switching from their semi-breech automatic rifle to a self-venting automatic rifle. They got sick of the low reliability of the system and precisely the accuracy.
  • Destiny
    Destiny 22 February 2021 06: 07
    +7
    Now it is proposed to use existing experience, improve existing weapons and refuse to import.

    It is high time to move from words to deeds. import substitution.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 22 February 2021 07: 08
    +6
    Quote: Dead Day
    7,62 versus 308 - Sleeve thickness

    This is not true. From the word at all.
    Our caliber is measured by fields, while NATO's is measured by rifling.
    And if NATO is .308 "= 7,82mm (real bullet diameter along the leading part), then ours is .312" = 7,92mm. That's the whole difference.
    In general, the use of the NATO 7,62 cartridge is not clear. He is a practical analogue of our 54th. And if we are talking about army rifles, then it will still be that crap. Both in supply and in production. I'm not talking about costs. Much like a cut. Senseless and merciless. smile
    And .338 Lapua magnum in a semiautomatic device is such a solution. Semi-automatic weapon is not a sniper, but a Marksman. And the distance of its work is up to 800m. Because the semiautomatic is ALWAYS less heaped than the bolt. Sniper work - 3-4 targets maximum at extreme distances, IMHO. What for a semiautomatic device?

    PS The author, could you please clarify what "developments" in terms of the development and production of high-precision weapons in question? I mean those companies that are mentioned in the article. I would agree if Orsis or Lobaev Arms were mentioned. But unfortunately, these manufacturers are not allowed to share the budget pie, despite their REAL achievements in the design of high-precision systems.

    ZZY In the photo with the caption "A promising rifle chambered for .338 LM from TsNIITOCHMASH." depicts T5000 from Orsis.
    1. Droid
      Droid 22 February 2021 08: 11
      +1
      Quote: KSVK
      This is not true. From the word at all.

      Not a word is written about the caliber.
      Our caliber is measured by fields, while NATO's is measured by rifling.
      And if NATO is .308 "= 7,82mm (real bullet diameter along the leading part), then ours is .312" = 7,92mm. That's the whole difference.

      Do not confuse the US with the US and NATO armies, in NATO, as in the US army, the metric system and caliber are officially called 7,62 mm. Whence it clearly follows that they measure the caliber by fields.
      1. nedgen
        nedgen 23 February 2021 01: 44
        +1
        Whence it clearly follows that they measure the caliber by fields.

        And that's not it. At NATO and the United States, all rifled barrels calibers, whether in inches or mm, are still measured from rifling to rifling, while in our country from field to field and when they say 7.62x51mm is the largest bullet diameter. and 7.62x54P means that in fact the caliber 7.82. For example, 9mm Pair is really 9mm and 9x18 (Makarov) is essentially 9.2mm x 18 (he measured it at one time) hi
        1. Droid
          Droid 23 February 2021 22: 08
          +1
          The diameter of a 7,62 mm bullet of a NATO cartridge is 7,85 mm, and ours is 7,87-0,05. Now tell us how 7,85 turned into 7,62.
          1. psiho117
            psiho117 24 February 2021 00: 43
            0
            Quote: Droid
            Now tell us how 7,85 turned into 7,62.

            So three lines ... Google, and you will find.
            1. Droid
              Droid 24 February 2021 07: 38
              0
              For those who cannot read the first time I will repeat in bold letters - the caliber of the NATO cartridge is 7,62, and the diameter of the bullet is 7,85... Tell us how 7,85 turned into 7,62 if they supposedly measure groove caliber.
              1. psiho117
                psiho117 24 February 2021 10: 57
                0
                I will repeat again - three lines ... Google, and you will find.
                I said whatever I wanted, sorry if you don't get it.
                request
                1. Droid
                  Droid 24 February 2021 16: 09
                  0
                  I will repeat once more - you do not read at all or you cannot read. You got into a discussion about the principles of measuring calibers, snatched a separate phrase from there and now you are carrying garbage. Even when I explained to you what it was all about, you continued to write garbage. You and math also sucks because 3 lines are not equal to 7,85 mm.
                  1. psiho117
                    psiho117 24 February 2021 23: 01
                    +1
                    Quote: Droid
                    You and math also sucks because 3 lines are not equal to 7,85 mm.


                    It doesn't matter how it is with my mathematics - it is important how it was in that historical period.
                    At that time, all weapons were measured in the framework of the English inch system of measures, and it was within that system of measures, for a barrel with a diameter of 7,62 mm (in terms of the distance between opposite rifling fields), a bullet with a diameter of 7,85 mm was required (distance between the bottom opposite grooves).
                    It was only later, the USSR, America, NATO introduced their own systems of measurement and designation - and at that time the whole world considered the caliber this way.
                    How do you like my bullshit? drinks
                    1. Droid
                      Droid 25 February 2021 08: 05
                      0
                      If you had bothered to read the discussion and my comments addressed to you, you would not be writing this text right now. My opponent argued that the caliber of a 7,62mm NATO bullet is equal to its diameter (7,62mm) because they measure the caliber by rifling. To which I replied that the diameter of the bullet is 7,85 mm, more than its caliber, which directly contradicts his thesis. I did not ask where the numbers 7,62 came from, I asked how the caliber is measured in NATO - by fields or by grooves.
                      1. psiho117
                        psiho117 25 February 2021 11: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        I did not ask where the numbers 7,62 came from, I asked how the caliber is measured in NATO - by fields or by grooves.

                        I asked, here it is:
                        Quote: Droid
                        the caliber of the NATO cartridge is 7,62, and the diameter of the bullet is 7,85. Tell us how 7,85 turned into 7,62 if they supposedly measure groove caliber.

                        To which I replied - In that historical period, neither NATO nor the metric system of measurements existed yet, the caliber was measured in fractions of an inch ("lines"), and was measured by the distance between opposite groove fields.

                        All hi
          2. nedgen
            nedgen 28 February 2021 01: 46
            0
            Excuse me, droid, but did you hold and measure this very 7.62x51 one at least once? It's just that their barrel diameter is measured by rifling i.e. on the largest diameter, and we have from field to field. those. by the smallest diameter https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B1%D1%80 here's a link. Read it yourself. There, the example of PM and Para is very well shown. They are measured according to scheme B and we are according to scheme A. Read it yourself.
            1. Droid
              Droid 21 March 2021 12: 14
              0
              Excuse me, droid, but did you hold and measure this very 7.62x51 one at least once?

              Have you seen the drawing of the cartridge? There, among other things, the dimensions are affixed. And the diameter is 7,85mm.
              here's a link for you.

              Does religion allow you to bring a drawing? Or the fact that the drawing completely contradicts your statement? Well, actually a drawing from the same wiki ...
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 16 March 2021 17: 14
        0
        Quote: Droid
        in the US Army, the metric system and caliber are officially called 7,62 mm. Whence it clearly follows that they measure the caliber by the fields.

        you do not assume, but know. And to begin with, explain why NATO did not rename 9x19 to 8,7x19? Yes, because, as measured by the grooves, and measured.
    2. anzar
      anzar 22 February 2021 11: 56
      +1
      Semi-automatic weapon is not a sniper, but a Marksman.

      Tak, you can provide a gas cock (turning off the self-priming.) For shooting at long distances, and turning it on for medium ones. That is, the "single" Marksman (at the prof. Soldier) instead of separately cutlets and flies))
      And the power of a .338 is also in demand at shorter distances due to the development of vests.
      1. Genry
        Genry 23 February 2021 05: 29
        0
        Quote: anzar
        Tak can be provided with a gas cock (turning off self-priming) for shooting at long distances, and turning it on for medium ones.

        What for?
        For SVD and its heirs, the bolt carrier begins to move when the bullet has already exited the barrel. The main disadvantage is that the barrel goes far away and the target is lost.
        1. Disant
          Disant 23 February 2021 15: 19
          0
          For SVD and its heirs, the bolt carrier begins to move when the bullet has already exited the barrel. The main disadvantage is that the barrel goes far away and the target is lost.

          What are you comparing it with - very, slightly?
          1. Genry
            Genry 23 February 2021 15: 48
            0
            Quote: Disant
            What are you comparing with - very, slightly?

            Have you thought about the bolts?
            There are no unbalanced moments in them that are created by moving mechanisms.
            1. Disant
              Disant 23 February 2021 18: 00
              +2
              in your comparison, the reload time for the second shot is not the same.
              You need much longer recharge time. Plus, it is these movements that will lead to the loss of purpose.
              and your comparison is incorrect - the world has not decided who is stronger - Bruce Lee or Schwarzenegger
              1. Genry
                Genry 23 February 2021 18: 21
                0
                Quote: Disant
                You need much longer recharge time.

                Automatic power supply is possible for relatively close targets, which at a larger viewing angle of the sight does not lead to its loss during sharp operation of the mechanism.
                The bolt is reloaded with a gentle movement of the hand, with a smaller barrel oscillation angle, which allows you to hold the target at long distances (the quality of the barrel is not discussed).
                Of course, the rate of fire differs significantly.
    3. PSih2097
      PSih2097 22 February 2021 16: 07
      +2
      Quote: KSVK
      I would agree if Orsis or Lobaev Arms were mentioned. But unfortunately, these manufacturers are not allowed to share the budget pie, despite their REAL achievements in the design of high-precision systems.

      they make only "bolts", not semiautomatic devices.
      1. FRoman1984
        FRoman1984 23 February 2021 07: 07
        0
        Quote: PSih2097
        Quote: KSVK
        I would agree if Orsis or Lobaev Arms were mentioned. But unfortunately, these manufacturers are not allowed to share the budget pie, despite their REAL achievements in the design of high-precision systems.

        they make only "bolts", not semiautomatic devices.

        That's the point, the 338 LM semiautomatic is nonsense. Only the "bolt" is capable of providing an accuracy of at least 1 arc minute.
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 24 February 2021 12: 10
          0
          Quote: FRoman1984
          That's the point, the 338 LM semiautomatic is nonsense. Only the "bolt" is capable of providing an accuracy of at least 1 arc minute.

          A quick googling immediately showed https://sword-int.com/mk-18/: a semiautomatic device in 338 caliber, a bunch of 0.5 MOA is declared. The second question: what kind of heap is needed, i.e. what the rifle will be used for. For example, shooting at 1.5 km may not be relevant, it is much more important to reliably hit the target in any SIBZ meters at 500-600 meters.
          1. FRoman1984
            FRoman1984 25 February 2021 07: 07
            0
            Quote: Kalmar
            Quote: FRoman1984
            That's the point, the 338 LM semiautomatic is nonsense. Only the "bolt" is capable of providing an accuracy of at least 1 arc minute.

            A quick googling immediately showed https://sword-int.com/mk-18/: a semiautomatic device in 338 caliber, a bunch of 0.5 MOA is declared. The second question: what kind of heap is needed, i.e. what the rifle will be used for. For example, shooting at 1.5 km may not be relevant, it is much more important to reliably hit the target in any SIBZ meters at 500-600 meters.

            I did not say that they are not. There is the same Barrett. But they are only used in movies, in reality only bolt rifles. Yes, from 500-600 meters you can hit a chest target with a technical accuracy of 1.5 minutes without any problems, but the automation in this caliber is not reliable. The same bad news rifle in 300winmag fell apart from a friend after several hundred shots, and he is a little lighter than the 338.
            1. Kalmar
              Kalmar 25 February 2021 09: 19
              0
              Quote: FRoman1984
              There is the same Barrett. But they are only used in movies

              Why? The M82 managed to fight in many places, although, of course, this is not quite a sniper rifle in the usual sense.

              Quote: FRoman1984
              automation in this caliber is not reliable

              There are no fundamental limitations that prevent reliable automation in large calibers (up to .50). The question is already in the quality of the performance of specific products: if the manufacturer, in pursuit of reducing weight and cost, made the rifle too "flimsy", then, of course, it will begin to crumble rather quickly: apparently, something like that happened with your friend.
    4. storm
      storm 22 February 2021 20: 21
      -1
      And .338 Lapua magnum in a semiautomatic device is such a solution. Semi-automatic weapon is not a sniper, but a Marksman. And the distance of its work is up to 800m

      .338LM works for 1,5 km and where did you get the idea that this caliber will be a semi-automatic, the article clearly says that they refused to unify !!!
      1. Alex777
        Alex777 23 February 2021 22: 36
        0
        .338LM works for 1,5 km and where did you get the idea that this caliber will be a semi-automatic, the article clearly says that they refused to unify !!!

        There will be a semi-automatic .338 LM. There are many articles on this topic.
        Here is an example:
        https://modernfirearms.net/ru/snajperskie-vintovki/snajperskie-vintovki-ru/rossija-snajperskie-vintovki/svch/
        And the barrels will not be interchangeable. hi
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 24 February 2021 00: 47
          0
          Quote: Alex777
          There will be a semi-automatic .338 LM

          This is an initially stillborn project.
          Who needs it?
          As part of the concept of "Marksman" shooting - this cartridge is too powerful, its potential will not be realized by either the rifle, nor its sight, nor the training of the shooter.
          As part of the concept of "sniper" shooting - no one needs a semi-automatic nafig.
          In addition, I can see how infantry Vanya will be given a rifle for the Lapua Magnum cartridge, which is not interchangeable with anything else, worth 500 rubles per pack, yeah, yeah wassat
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 24 February 2021 12: 14
            0
            Quote: psiho117
            As part of the concept of "Marksman" shooting - this cartridge is too powerful

            In light of the increasingly widespread use of body armor, it may not be unnecessary.

            Quote: psiho117
            In addition, I can see how infantry Vanya will be given a rifle for the Lapua Magnum cartridge, which is not interchangeable with anything else, worth 500 rubles per pack

            Of course, a simple infantry Vanya will not be given anything more complicated, more expensive than the good old SVDhi for a very long time. I think that all sorts of special forces will become the first users (if at all).
            1. petroff
              petroff 20 May 2021 01: 26
              0
              Perhaps Vanya will be given SVD KMA ... And many more letters. Why did the SVDK 9x63 not please? Also, as it were, an interesting modification.
    5. petroff
      petroff 20 May 2021 01: 23
      0
      Well, there is SVDK, there is generally 9x63. Caliber is not always a range, the same 338, probably not so much in range as for the same distance as 7.62.51, but with increased power.
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 22 February 2021 08: 12
    -2
    The NATO cartridge is not an analogue of ours, it has a normal sleeve without an outdated welt in the century before last.
    And why does Marksman not have the right to shoot more than 800 m?
    1. Luty
      Luty 22 February 2021 12: 20
      0
      He has the right, but will he get there?)))))
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 22 February 2021 08: 36
    -4
    Doubts overwhelm me, but is it being prepared for our army, especially the caliber 338LM? Or these cunning hopmenagers decided at the expense of the country to adjust weapons to potential opponents under the guise of entering a foreign market, and fill up their pockets. Oh well.
    1. beeper
      beeper 22 February 2021 10: 45
      -2
      Quote: Ros 56
      Doubts overwhelm me, but is it being prepared for our army, especially the caliber 338LM? Or these cunning hopmenagers decided at the expense of the country to adjust weapons to potential opponents under the guise of entering a foreign market, and fill up their pockets. Well, well.

      hi Exactly! IMHO-The most realistic look at these "promising things" for imported calibers and cartridges(and the look is by no means "dubious")! good
      1. beeper
        beeper 23 February 2021 06: 55
        +1
        Yes, this is an "import intention" and not really hidden ??!
        Here, for example, from the "veiled" advertising brochure of Lebedev's pistol, posted today right there on VO:
        At the upcoming IDEX 2021 exhibition, the Russian Kalashnikov Concern will for the first time show foreign countries not only a PLC pistol, but also other modern developments in the field of small arms. All these products may interest foreign military personnel and become the subject of contracts in the near future. The same applies to the products of other defense enterprises participating in the exhibition.
    2. Obliterator
      Obliterator 22 February 2021 23: 52
      +3
      Quote: Ros 56
      Or these cunning hopmenagers decided at the expense of the country to adjust weapons to potential opponents under the guise of entering a foreign market, and fill up their pockets. Oh well.

      Potential opponents do not need - they and their producers have enough of such products. And no one in their right mind will give the Russian market away. Why waste money and time on R&D on a new cartridge when someone else's successful solution is possible - .338LM.
    3. psiho117
      psiho117 23 February 2021 02: 23
      +1
      Quote: Ros 56
      cunning hopmenagers decided to adjust weapons to potential opponents at the expense of the country

      What is this nonsense? The development of the ROC was ordered by the Ministry of Defense.
      In addition, "potential opponents" do not care about our developments - they will only use their own, kosher ones.
      And the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge has been produced here for a long time.
  • Strashila
    Strashila 22 February 2021 10: 54
    +1
    "Apparently, the rifles of the Ugolyok family will surpass the existing SVD and its modifications in their main characteristics. First of all, an increase in fire parameters is expected due to the use of a more powerful foreign cartridge or its promising analogue of domestic development.", Another comparison is not comparable. It is clear that progress does not stand still, although such stagnation is possible in our country, which prevents the production of modernized weapons.
    All these SVD receivers, this is of course wonderful, do not only sound how much it costs.
    If in fact the result of the use is close in result, then why pay more, if only for the next show-off, like a weapon like a'la west looks like.
    In good hands, Mosinka is a formidable weapon to this day.
  • Luty
    Luty 22 February 2021 12: 21
    0
    If for your army you need it for your ammunition. And if in order to sell - well, there is anything. Money rules.
    1. Obliterator
      Obliterator 22 February 2021 23: 53
      0
      Quote: Luty
      If for your army you need it for your ammunition.

      So they will be their own. The army men have an ironclad requirement - everything must be Russian-made, no foreignness.
      1. Luty
        Luty 23 February 2021 10: 56
        0
        So let's wait and see.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 22 February 2021 17: 42
    +1
    Quote: anzar
    Semi-automatic weapon is not a sniper, but a Marksman.

    Tak a gas cock can be provided (turning off self-priming)


    And this in no way will turn the self-loading into a bolt. wink

    Quote: anzar

    That is, the "single" Marksman (at the prof. Soldier) instead of separately cutlets and flies))


    Well, if you prefer together .... well, in the sense of flies with cutlets. laughing
    And as history and experience show, cutlets are still served separately from flies.
    And a Marksman with a sniper is still two specializations with different training tasks, skills and weapons.

    Quote: anzar

    And the power of a .338 is also in demand at shorter distances due to the development of vests.


    338 is redundant to combat "lightly armored" infantry. The tasks of penetrating armor are solved by using TUSs.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 23 February 2021 02: 28
      +1
      Quote: KSVK
      338 is redundant to combat "lightly armored" infantry.
      This caliber, and rifles for it, are generally not intended for combined arms combat.
      This is a sniper's weapon, not a Marksman's.
      The tasks of penetrating armored vehicles are solved using TUSs
      this is not very compatible with the concept of "high precision".
      But for DMR rifles it will do.
  • FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 23 February 2021 07: 20
    +2
    Apparently, not only the author, but also, what is most terrible, the Ministry of Defense doesn’t understand and don’t want to understand the issue.
    If you leave the concept of "semi-automatic" on the "sniper" rifle for motorized riflemen, marines, etc. (under "Warrior"), then there is no point in spending any money and invent / do the same (SVD), but in a different body kit.
    308 rounds in a semiautomatic machine will not give advantages over the 54th. Same accuracy, plus or minus, as the semi-automatic concept negates the advantages of the 308 case.
    But in bolt 308 - already a cut above the 54th due to the sleeve (holding the sleeve in the chamber with the shoulders, and not the welt).
    338 is an expensive caliber in all respects: the barrel resource is low, the ammunition cost is high. This weapon (caliber) of a special forces sniper and only in a bolt carbine, 338 in a semi-automatic - this is stupid stupidity.
    But here, it seems, the idea is to master the money, and not really do something worthy.
    1. petroff
      petroff 20 May 2021 01: 38
      0
      Or the transition to 9x63. There are also such SVDs with the letter K (large-caliber) on their base at one time even the Elk-Tiger carbine was produced. What is not a Marksman, with a bullet knocking out the soul through a heavy armor.
      Then, again, there are 12.7 caliber marksmans ... In general, there are more than enough prospects for modernizing the existing ones for working on 500-1000m markers.
      The design of the next bicycle for ammunition that is non-standard for our latitudes smells like a saw and access to the foreign market for budget money. Fictitious orders.
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 23 February 2021 19: 49
    +1
    Cartridge 7.62x54 creates certain difficulties with box magazines. For example, in the USA, when Vepr rifles were supplied here, 7.62 and even 51 charging box magazines were very quickly created for 20x30 rifles, but they could not create such a store for 7.62x54P rifles. They even tried to remake the BREN stores for a boar or repeat the design of the BREN store under 7.62x54. Nothing worked for them. The magazine refused to serve more than 17 rounds. Neither CSSPECS nor SGM succeeded, although both companies make excellent stores for almost everything. Including M14. By the way, Vepri 7.62x54 were the least popular, precisely because of the lack of a box magazine for 20+ rounds. Moreover, there are no guides for the clips on the slide. This also made the boar in this caliber less attractive.

    I think that the transition to 7.62x51 is due to the fact that a magazine for 10 rounds is too small, and you need to develop a magazine for 7.62x54R or copy the magazines for BREN conceptually, and there is a tricky presentation. Or develop something from scratch. What surprises me is that the cartridge 300VIN MAG is ignored. This cartridge is very popular among civilian shooters in the United States. However, it is also used in the US Armed Forces. 338 Lapua Magnum is considered by many army men to be too powerful and expensive, as well as weapons for it. Our Army uses 300 Wines mage. A 338 Lapua is used by the special forces of the Navy. That is, this caliber is not massively used in the US Armed Forces.

    Another thing is that the new 6.8 caliber, not to be confused with the 6.8 SPC, will retire both 5.56 and 7.62x51. The ballistics there will be very, very interesting. And this will already be a departure from assault rifles / assault rifles, back to battle rifles, that is, the concept of the M14, FAL, G3, G43 and SVT40 returns. Everything new is well forgotten old :-).
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 24 February 2021 01: 13
      0
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      I think that the transition to 7.62x51 is due to the fact that a magazine for 10 rounds is too small,

      This is acceptable as part of the performance of the assigned task by the fighter-Marksman.
      Do not confuse a rifle and a machine gun bully Yes, I would like to have a 20-round magazine, like on a weapon under 7.62x51mm, but 10 is also quite enough. In addition, the silhouette with a 10-round magazine will be smaller.
      And there will be no transition - the 7.62x51mm cartridge is in no way (and never will be) standard ammunition for motorized rifle units.
      Therefore, all this is bullshit, and the SVD (nakraynyak - microwave under 7.62x54mm, if they still lobby) will serve for a long time.
      surprises me that the cartridge 300WIN MAG is ignored

      The .300 Win Mag is interchangeable with the 7.62x51mm, and the 7.62x51mm "eating" weapon is usually easily modified for it.
      But the .338 LM caliber already requires the development of new weapons - the barrel, the bolt, the frame - everything is undergoing significantly greater loads.
      new caliber 6.8, not to be confused with 6.8 SPC, will retire both 5.56 and 7.62x51

      It is highly doubtful that he will be able to dismiss anyone there.
      However, let's wait and see hi
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 24 February 2021 09: 53
        -1
        Sie, Zivilist. Judging by your delirium that they say 300 VIN magician is the same as 7.62x51, you have not seen a single cartridge of this, and you have not held anything except a plastic machine gun "Zarnitsa" in your hands. Stand there and listen here, I will now carry a ray of knowledge into your dark head. So. Cartridge 7.62x51. OUTSIDE the same as civilly 308 Winchester. But the pressure on SAMI is different for them. The 308 VIN has a pressure of 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 NATO has a pressure of 60,191 psi. Therefore, some rifles chambered for the METRIC NATO cartridge do not like to be fired with an American civilian cartridge. Different pressure. Although the dimensions are the same. There is also 7.62x51 CETME, which is the same size but develops even weaker pressure. You can shoot with 7.62x51 CETME cartridges from the FAL. Although the gas regulator will need to be tightened. But it is not recommended to shoot with 7.62x51NATO cartridges from the SETME rifle. So, repeat the lesson, student. There are THREE rounds: Civil 308 Wincherster, NATO, 7.62x51 and Spanish 7.62x51. In SIZE they are identical, but in terms of developing pressure - absolutely, absolutely not, repeat. Oh well done. Take Lollipop.
        Now we go to the cartridge 300 Winchester MAGNUM (for the ignorant poor students - magnum means STRENGTHEN. Repeat ... Ah, well done. So 300 Winchester Magnum (aka 300 WINMAG). He is 7.62x66. In rifles such as M14, Fal and G3 he just DOES NOT FIT. The chamber will be too small. Now a little physics. I understand that the head is upper bobo. But be patient. PRESSURE this cartridge develops according to SAAMI, 64,000 psi. That is, higher than even the civilian 308 Winchester (case size 7.62x51, remember, huh? Well done).

        Moreover, there is another 7.62 cartridge in the USA. Called 300 WSM (Winchester short magnum - Winchester, Shortened Reinforced). It also does not fit into the chambers of rifles 308, 7.62x51, and it also does not fit into the chambers of 300 VIN MAG. Rather, it will fit into the chamber of 300 VIN MAG, but will not shoot. And if he shoots, it's not enough for the "genius" shooter (I will tell your relative, for him, too, all cartridges 7.62 are interchangeable), not much will show. The 300VSM has 53mm liner length, and the SAAMI pressure is 63,817 psi. That is to say, it is ALMOST identical to the 300 Winmag, but it can be used in lighter rifles with shorter barrels.

        By the way, 7.62x51 NATO is MORE POWERFUL than 7.62x54R. According to SAAMI standards 7.62x54R develops a pressure of 56,565 psi. Less than 7.62x51 NATO, not to mention 308 Winchester. Learn the mat part, ignorant.

        Inspect, remember, and no more disgrace yourself like that.

        By the way, just in case. Cartridges 7.62x39 cannot be used in weapons for caliber 300VINMAG, 300VSM, 7.62 NATO, 308 Winchester and 7.62 CETME. Remember, ignoramus. The fact that a cartridge of 7.62 caliber does not mean at all that it can be poked into all weapons with a BARREL of 7.62. Everything, go, otherwise the little head is completely ill. Go in peace, you foolish child and do not disgrace yourself any more. Your epitimia is to go to the page of worldgans.ru and read everything about patrons. Report on execution.

        As for the fact that the DMR rifle is not a machine gun - are you telling me? I wonder why we have guys in the army who run around with the DMR, be it M16 SPR or M14, run around with standard stores. For M16 SPR or M16A2 / A3 they run with 30 charger (standard), and those who run with M14 run with 20 charges - standard. Why did the German DMRs when they ran with the MSG90 and PSG1 ran with the standard 20 charging magazines, eh? After all, the DMR is not a machine gun? Probably because 20 rounds without reloading is better than 10. You are our genius. Truly you are the reincarnation of John Browning, with your then knowledge. Do not disgrace yourself. Learn materiel. In 5 years we'll talk.
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 24 February 2021 11: 56
          0
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          Judging by your delirium

          Judging by your rudeness, rudeness, and desire to teach, a constructive dialogue with you will not work, but still ...
          My words:
          The .300 Win Mag is interchangeable with the 7.62x51mm, and the 7.62x51mm "eating" weapon is usually easily modified for it.

          I confess I did not specify what it was about sniper weapons (sniper weapons are bolts, if cho), which caused this irrepressible stream of consciousness on your part.
          However, what am I talking about - of course, in the discussion of the article on sniper weapons and cartridges, I could only talk about infantry rifles, and shove any 7,62 cartridges - anywhere, and indiscriminately, also mixed.
          More dhaka, yeah.
          Of course, you could not even think that I was talking about the fact that bolts under 7.62x51mm, by simple manipulations
          (replacement of the barrel and refinement of the bolt group) turn into bolts for the 24th Vin Mag - as an example, the rework of the M2010 into XMXNUMX, what, have you really not heard?
          Well, nothing, learn the materiel, and in 5 years ... wassat
          because 20 rounds without reloading is better than 10. You are our genius

          Better, but not critical. Reloading is by no means a problem; you don't need to transfer sporting stereotypes to combat weapons.
          And the reliability of your army 30 cartridge magazines generally casts doubt on their allegedly greater efficiency.
          Sie, Zivilist.
          Alas, no. The war itself came to us, we had to fight.
          Go in peace

          Thank you, we have been waiting for him for 7 years.
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 February 2021 22: 22
            0
            For a magazine rifle with a bolt action (you call it a BOLT, there is no BOLT, but there is a SHUTTER there, and such rifles are not called BOLT, but SHOPPING bolt action rifles. The bolt is a little different, and in another place). And then you pearl will continue to assert that you understand something in the weapon ?? "Alterations" from 7.62x51 to 300 VINMAG are not just "replacement of the barrel and bolt group", it is at the same time a replacement, the MSA and the store too. (Vinmag won't fit into stores from FAL). I mean, this is a NEW rifle. Well, the bed can be used from the old one. But this will be a DIFFERENT rifle. There, except for the bed, the cleaning kit, and the ramrod from the original nifig will not remain. I have at home two magazine rifles with a rotary bolt - Lee Enfield (if you have a Lee Enfield, you don't need another rifle), one rifle - for the good old 303. Enfield Mk4. The second is the Hindu Ishapur Enfield 2A1 chambered for 7.62 NATO. So, these are DIFFERENT rifles. There are no interchangeable parts there. You will turn the bed with a dremel so that the bed from Enfield 308 can be screwed to Enfield 303. Moreover. Ishapur Enfield has an interesting joke. There are TWO options. One is called Efild 2. And the second, Enfild 2A1. So, it is NOT recommended to shoot with the CIVIL cartridge 308 from Enfield 2 (A NATO or Spanish can be used), otherwise you can, as the Americans say, "swallow the bolt." (I mean, the lower part of the face will be blown away by the shutter), although this happened extremely rarely. But Enfield 2A1 eats both civilian and military and Spanish. This is for my lecture on different cartridges 7.62X51.
            1. psiho117
              psiho117 24 February 2021 23: 26
              0
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              and such rifles are not called BOLTS, but SHOPPING bolt-action rifles

              Ay, let's no demagoguery. In the Russian-speaking segment of the Internet, they say that, and everyone understands each other.
              Call it a latch.
              "Alterations" from 7.62x51 to 300 VINMAG are not just "replacement of the barrel and bolt group", it is at the same time a replacement, the MSA and the store too.

              But this is possible, and even regularly done by many manufacturers. The rifle remains in the same weight and size characteristics as before.
              Converting from 7.62x51 to .338 LM is impossible. This requires a new rifle.
              Now re-read my comment, to which such an unfounded reaction followed:
              The .300 Win Mag is interchangeable with the 7.62x51mm, and the 7.62x51mm "eating" weapon is usually easily modified for it.
              But the .338 LM caliber already requires the development of new weapons - the barrel, the bolt, the frame - everything is undergoing significantly greater loads.

              Not ashamed? lol
              I have two bolt action rifles at my house - Lee Enfields

              Fortunately, modern weapons have nevertheless gone a little further along the road of unification and standardization from the Anfields.
              And if modern Magazine bolt action rifles declared as a weapon under .308 / 7,62x51 - then you can be 99% sure that excesses will not follow.
              1. Baron pardus
                Baron pardus 25 February 2021 00: 07
                0
                We can see rifles sold under "308" or 7.62x51. And VERY often in the instruction manual in black on white it says "This rifle is designed for the METRIC cartridge 7.62x51. The use of the 308 cartridge is not recommended and may void the warranty." Or "This rifle is certified for shooting with 308 and 7.62x51 cartridges. SAIGA 308 can use both cartridges, and some rifles - only 308x7.62. The clones of the BM51 rifle SPECIALLY came with the tools that "Certified ONLY with 59x7.62 cartridge. The use of the 51 cartridge can lead to tragic consequences and the manufacturer DOES NOT RESPONSIBLE for any injury or death if the 308 cartridges are used. "FAL, M308 and G14 clones are usually stamped" Winchester 3 "on the receiver. AP308 variants are usually also certified and with 10x7.62 NATO and 51 Winchester.

                Yes, you can change it, as I already told YOU, but by switching from 308 to 300Vinmag you change: the barrel, the bolt group, the MSA and the store. What do you have left? Stock, ramrod and cleaning kit. And if the bolt group is new, the barrel is new, and the magazine is new, this is already a NEW rifle.

                Perhaps, by standardization, modern weapons have gone ahead of Enfield. But I am more than happy with my Smiles (SMLE -> SMILE). From 100 meters 5 shots in a 6.5cm circle. And this is the Wolf or the Silver Bear. Standard Remington 700 will not give better. And it costs twice as much.
  • Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 23 February 2021 20: 05
    +1
    Quote: psiho117
    The point is in special sniper ammunition, which simply do not exist under 7,62x54 (what is - bullshit).

    But there will be enough cartridges in warehouses for three WWII.
    It's like with greatcoats and boots. Stocked up for future use.
    In addition, there are also trophy items in warehouses in some places.
    At 95, the captain gave me a German landing jacket.
    It turned out badly when in the store the veteran grandfather saw what a soldier of the Russian Army was wearing.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 24 February 2021 01: 16
      -1
      Quote: Comrade Kim

      But there will be enough cartridges in warehouses for three WWII.

      Enough is enough - only I would be careful not to trust the execution of a combat mission to a soldier who has cartridges of 50-60 years ago.
      Fraught.
      All these 15-fold reserves for the entire USSR, in case of BP, are losing their relevance every year.
      So, purely for complacency: lies - well, okay, otherwise suddenly a zombie apocalypse or aliens will arrive - and we don't have a cartridge wassat
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 14 May 2021 13: 57
    +1
    They are created taking into account the current needs and requirements of the army, as well as using modern materials and technologies, which in itself provides significant benefits.
    ?
    Not always modern materials give advantages - Glock frames bursting in the cold, delays in the cold of "plastic" M4 carbines, deforming carbon stores - a lot of shooters from Europe / USA do not work / breaks at temperatures below -35