Military Review

On the other side of the blockade ... of Karabakh and Yerevan

79
On the other side of the blockade ... of Karabakh and Yerevan

Armenian dead end ...



The restoration of transport and economic ties in the Transcaucasus, which is so actively advertised by Baku, Moscow and Ankara, is not at all so unambiguous. In any case, as far as Armenia is concerned.

After the "convincing," but by no means final victory of Azerbaijan's ally in the battle for Karabakh, the Turkish authorities seem to be issuing an ultimatum demand that Yerevan give up ... the saint. From a never-ending propaganda campaign for the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey in 1915-1918.

Only then, according to Ankara, it will be possible to talk about unblocking the railway between Turkey and Armenia and, in general, the Turkey-Armenia-North Azerbaijan-Russia railway route.

By the way, this is the shortest route between Russia and Turkey, which was put into operation back in 1902. But it has been blocked by Ankara since 1993 until now.


The mentioned political condition, of course, does not exist, and it could not have been in the recent agreements between Russia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Turkey on unblocking transport arteries in the region. Nevertheless, Ankara, apparently, decided to "at once" solve the long-standing political conflict in their favor.

And the Turkish truth


The geographic logic of Turkish politicians is simple to the limit, more precisely - to lawlessness. Say, if you want to unlock, then if you please forget about what happened in the distant years of the First World War.

As for the Turkish almost ultimatum itself, Ankara has already put forward, we repeat, a condition for lifting the blockade of Armenia. According to "Yerkramas" news agency (Yerevan) on February 9, 2021,

"... in Almaty, the" Protocol on the establishment and development of bilateral relations between Turkey and Armenia is being developed. "

But official Turkey has set the main condition for this document:

"Armenia's refusal of international recognition of the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire."


That is, Ankara, without challenging the very fact of the 1915 genocide, demands that Yerevan still not support the campaign for further international recognition of the genocide (see. Armenian pogroms in the Ottoman Empire).

Needless to say - a pragmatic position. Given that the aforementioned fact has now been officially recognized by more than 40 countries. Including, for example, USA, France, Canada, Italy, Germany, Russia, Switzerland, Greece, Syria, Argentina, all Benelux countries, Brazil and the Vatican.

Never forget it


Therefore, Ankara intends to blockade Armenia indefinitely, for Yerevan will never refuse to support the international campaign for the recognition of the Turkish Armenian genocide.

This genocide itself, for all its monstrous cruelty, became a bloody response of the pan-Turkists to the fact that when Russian troops entered Eastern Turkey in 1914, local Armenian activists began to form their own government bodies there, effectively separating the region from Turkey.

Moreover, everything was turned around without any sanction from the Russian side. Apparently, among other things, even the factor of the change of the Caucasian governor, who just in 1915 became the Tsar's uncle, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, affected.

The direct consequence was the mass pogroms of Armenians practically throughout the entire Ottoman Empire. In combination with the massacre of Armenians in the east and southeast of Turkey, where the Armenian population was the majority.

Who has a bad memory?


However, the Turkish authorities prefer not to remember what provoked the genocide. And they simply call the corresponding claims of the Diaspora (the Armenian diaspora) and Armenia itself nothing more than “political invention”, “nationalist propaganda”, etc.

Thus, Turkey, primitively denying everything that happened in 1915-1918, itself deprives itself of counter-arguments. In order to somehow try to explain the reasons for the anti-Armenian hysteria during that period. However, explanations of this kind will signify de facto recognition of the Armenian genocide by Ankara.

Is it because from Ankara it seems much more reliable and patriotic (in Turkish, of course) to simply deny everything than to go into risky historical discussions.

Meanwhile, Ankara, as if to prove its "intransigence," on February 5 this year sent a freight train from central Turkey to Russia - for the first time on a route that has been operating since 2017 through Georgia and Azerbaijan.


For this, the Ankara-Erzurum-Kars-Akhalkalaki-Tbilisi-Agstafa-Mingechaur-Derbent-Makhachkala highway was used with an appointment to Vladimir (see. The first train set off on the Ankara-Moscow route).

Will the hint be understood?


A strange route was used, despite the fact that this route is almost a quarter longer than the route through Armenia and Azerbaijan. By all indications, for Ankara today it is more important to designate for its neighbors, as well as for Moscow, that there is no alternative to the route through Georgia and Azerbaijan.

Now they are her political allies in the Transcaucasus, and thus a hint is made quite transparently that Turkey will continue to blockade any routes through Armenia.

Meanwhile, in Armenia, “unofficial” appeals to the Russian Federation not to use the Kars-Tbilisi-Baku highway until the route from Turkey through Armenia resumes operation is already spreading through the media and social networks.


Taking into account the aforementioned political demand of Turkey to Yerevan, it is possible that even the leadership of Armenia will support such calls.

It seems that in the former Russian Transcaucasia, trains will once again follow a vicious vicious circle.
Author:
Photos used:
nashasreda.ru, avangardlogistik.az, hraparak.am, 4.bp.blogspot.com
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  1. Nazar
    Nazar 21 February 2021 04: 32
    +15
    The shortest road from the Russian Federation to Turkey is along the Black Sea, and these railways, that through Georgia, that through Armenia, do not make economic sense for the Russian Federation, sea transportation is much cheaper than railroad.
    1. Destiny
      Destiny 21 February 2021 08: 06
      +12
      Quote: Nazar
      sea ​​transportation is much cheaper than railway

      I agree that the most profitable way of transporting goods today.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 21 February 2021 21: 37
      +4
      Quote: Nazar
      The shortest road from the Russian Federation to Turkey is along the Black Sea, and these railways, that through Georgia, that through Armenia, do not make economic sense for the Russian Federation, sea transportation is much cheaper than railroad.

      sea ​​freight is cheaper on the long arm. this is not the case.
      1. Nazar
        Nazar 23 February 2021 10: 50
        +3
        Navodlom - this is just "that" case - there are some "details" here - for example, the relief, given the slopes that exist on the routes described, it is not that the "heavy load" train cannot be carried, the composition of a regular load will not even last a couple of locomotives that is, trains from Russia will have to be split up and carried in parts through the mountains. And yet - in Turkey the track is different - and the replacement of wheelsets is not a short time and additional costs, well, or additional overload, which is also not better. Therefore, here the railway will not be able to compete with the sea. The only thing is that in Armenia, which has no sea on this railway, it will make sense to drive cargo, but this is mainly Armenia is interested, and their "wise" government does not have enough ability to negotiate with neighbors, and if the Armenians are really with Azerbaijan it's not easy to come to an agreement, why have they not decided anything with Georgia for so many years? Via Adler,. Sukhumi was the same railway there to Armenia. The Armenians do not seem to be at war with the Georgians, and it is not destiny to restore the railway ... apparently they need it. Should Russia fuss for them?
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 23 February 2021 10: 52
          +2
          sorry, I was professionally engaged in transport logistics.
          I see no point in this dispute.
  2. Doccor18
    Doccor18 21 February 2021 06: 06
    +7
    ... the logic of Turkish politicians is simple to the limit, more precisely - to lawlessness.

    Do not add, do not subtract ..
  3. nikvic46
    nikvic46 21 February 2021 06: 09
    +2
    Here the interests of several parties have mixed. And this is all closely watched by China. The Silk Road is what interests it primarily in this region. The shortest way.
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 21 February 2021 06: 41
    +4
    Understandable incl. and to the Turks that Armenia will never give up the constant mention of the Armenian genocide in order to recognize it (genocide) by the entire international community. The condition is set obviously impracticable. About the blockade of the railway
    blocked by Ankara from 1993 until now
    - Has Armenia somehow existed since 1993?
    1. Professor
      Professor 21 February 2021 07: 20
      -2
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Understandable incl. and to the Turks that Armenia will never give up the constant mention of the Armenian genocide in order to recognize it (genocide) by the entire international community. The condition is set obviously impracticable. About the blockade of the railway
      blocked by Ankara from 1993 until now
      - Has Armenia somehow existed since 1993?

      The Armenians turned this recognition into a religion. Well, the Turks recognize the genocide: "Yes, it was in the dark times of the Ottoman Empire." So what? My acquaintances Armenians answered this question: "... and the Turks will return our territories and pay compensation." Why should I ask? "The Turkish Republic is not responsible for the crimes of the Ottoman Empire." The topic is closed.
      1. Destiny
        Destiny 21 February 2021 08: 04
        +21
        Quote: Professor
        "The Turkish Republic is not responsible for the crimes of the Ottoman Empire." The topic is closed.

        Following your logic, then the FRG is not responsible for the crimes of the Third Reich, however, it regularly pays compensation, including to Israel, and the Armenians are worse than you? For Armenia, this topic will never be closed.
        1. Professor
          Professor 21 February 2021 09: 02
          -6
          Quote: Destiny
          Following your logic, then the FRG is not responsible for the crimes of the Third Reich, but it regularly pays compensation, including to Israel, and the Armenians are worse than you?

          Following my logic, the FRG is not responsible for the crimes of the German Empire as well as the Russian Federation for the crimes of the Russian Empire.

          For Armenia, this topic will not be closed even if Turkey kneels down. However, Armenia does not live in a vacuum and permanent confrontation with Turkey is not good for Armenia. Now we are talking about the survival of Armenia and the Armenian ethnos in general. It may so happen that the claims against Turkey will die off by themselves along with the disappearance of the Armenians. Today Armenia and Armenians are really dying out. Demography, emigration, assimilation ...
          1. Pashhenko Nikolay
            Pashhenko Nikolay 21 February 2021 10: 15
            +12
            Don't worry so much about the Armenians. They are already successfully developing the Krasnodar Territory. There and their ancient capital has long been there.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 21 February 2021 10: 08
          0
          Quote: Destiny

          Following your logic, then the FRG is not responsible for the crimes of the Third Reich, however, it regularly pays compensation, including to Israel, and the Armenians are worse than you? For Armenia, this topic will never be closed.

          Everything was mutually beneficial between Israel and the FRG.
          The USA became the largest sales market after the war. Before landing in Europe, the Americans hated the Japanese for Pearl Harbor and so on, they breathed evenly towards the Germans and even respected them - good soldiers, the largest ethnic group in the States is the Germans, etc. They breathed exactly right up to the collision with the concentration camps, then the attitude towards them changed dramatically.
          I am generally silent about another convenient and important sales market for the Germans - Western Europe.
          Therefore, the FRG, both for the receipt of currency in its country and for investments, was extremely important to change its image and loudly repent of what it had done.
          Israel: an impoverished third world country at the beginning of the 60s, massive economic aid from Germany, conditioned by the diplomatic campaigns, initially caused the Maidan in Jerusalem, machine gunners were raised on the roof of the parliament, there were victims during the dispersal of protest demonstrations, but the government ultimately pushed through this decision.
          Beneficial to the Germans and beneficial to the Jews.
          Germany thus distanced itself from the Third Reich.
          In the case of Turkey and Armenia, there is no mutual benefit. Turkey was not occupied by the Entente troops, so few people know about the 1915 Genocide, few people are interested in it.
          It makes no sense for Turkey to recognize it, it makes no sense for the world to press for recognition.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 21 February 2021 15: 46
            +4
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Everything was mutually beneficial between Israel and the FRG.

            Wah fellow, a real Jew! good
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 21 February 2021 15: 56
              -3
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Quote: Krasnodar
              Everything was mutually beneficial between Israel and the FRG.

              Wah fellow, a real Jew! good

              I don’t expect that the king-father will solve all my problems and I don’t steal? lol
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 21 February 2021 17: 11
                +2
                Well, yes, tribute is something else. bully
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 29
                  0
                  Tribute? lol
                  If in Berlin in 1933 about 40% of the business, and in all of Germany about a quarter, belonged to Jews, estimate the amount wrung out by the Nazis in numbers. And the property? And the money that was taken away from the country and taken away from the murdered? And this is only in Germany. And throughout the Nazi-conquered Europe?
                  So think about when the Germans pay off their debt to the Jews. Moreover, no one forces them to pay - they went for it themselves, for their own benefit.
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 21 February 2021 19: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    If in Berlin in 1933 about 40% of business, and in all of Germany about a quarter,

                    And in Germany before WWI? wink And let's be honest - Jewish pogroms did not start from scratch everywhere. Gambling in food in a starving country is not the cleanest business.
                    A similar situation with the Armenian genocide (I don’t justify the genocide of the Jews), when the Armenians owned more than half of the food trade, and played with the prices for it. In a country at war.
                    As for the tribute for the Holocaust (again, I don’t deny it), the Jews scratched the sore, greatly exaggerating the number of victims. Your Professor and I have already butted on this topic, and argued to him that according to statistics in 1939 about 9,5 million Jews lived in Europe, and at the time of 1945 there were about 3,8 million left. The decline is already less than 6 million. people, and most of the departs have left. Easy to check against arrival statistics in other countries. A plus, of course, are the occupied territories of the USSR, but again, according to archival data, the bulk also left.
                    Again, I do not justify the killing of people solely on the basis of ethnicity, but it is just as disgusting when they make a gesheft on the bones.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 20: 05
                      -2
                      In Germany, Jews have been beaten since the Middle Ages, if not earlier - after all, it is always profitable to live independently, collect debts and expel or kill the creditor laughing
                      And what is "business" honest during a famine? Make a career in the ruling party and enjoy the privileges of guiding starving fellow citizens on the true path? ))
                      The Armenian genocide happened for another reason - their territory was under the Ottoman Empire, with the exception of the financial and intellectual elites, the Armenians living in their native territory were, in principle, a discriminated minority in the country. They tried to fight for equality, and during WWI they contacted opponents of the Turks, which caused a massacre.
                      Exaggerating the number of victims ?? What does this have to do with compensation? They are given for financial damage, not for genocide.
                      From 2 million Jews were killed on the territory of the USSR.
                      What is the gesheft on the bones? laughing I already wrote above - the FRG needed it no less than Israel for the reasons I mentioned above
                      1. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 21 February 2021 20: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        after all, it is always profitable to live without means, collect debts and expel or kill the creditor

                        It's corny, yes. But after all, the Jews did not work with pens, but lived almost exclusively by usury? And usurers are parasites.
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        They tried to fight for equality, and during WWI they contacted opponents of the Turks, which caused a massacre.

                        Taking into account the "game" with food prices, trade in which was almost entirely in their hands. Nobody would like it. But the Turks went too far in their "fair" anger towards the East. So this is a specific genocide.
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        2 million Jews were killed on the territory of the USSR

                        Not. Before the war, less than 3 million Jews lived in the occupied territory of the USSR, and more than 80% left the occupation.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 21 February 2021 21: 08
                        -2
                        1) Did the Jews not work with pens? lol And did tailors, shoemakers, jewelers and others work with their feet? )) In addition, because of protectionism, many professions were forbidden to them
                        2) Usurers are parasites? laughing Try to accumulate capital, lend it to a pontorez who lives beyond their means and still get their money back with a percentage. I do not argue that the business is risky, but nevertheless
                        3) There was no economic component in the Armenian genocide
                        4) Yeah. Especially from the border areas 80% left laughing
                      3. Professor
                        Professor 21 February 2021 22: 20
                        -4
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        It's corny, yes. But after all, the Jews did not work with pens, but lived almost exclusively by usury? And usurers are parasites.

                        Jews, respectively, are parasites. Bravo. Are you zizying high?

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Not. Before the war, less than 3 million Jews lived in the occupied territory of the USSR, and more than 80% left the occupation.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        in 1939, about 9,5 million Jews lived in Europe, and at the time of 1945 there were about 3,8 million. The decline is already less than 6 million, and most of the decline has left.

                        So there was no Holocaust and this is a Jewish gesheft. Once again, bravo. Go ahead.

                        In general, both the victims (Jews) and the executioners (Germans) unanimously agree on the number of victims of the Holocaust and it is not your business to get into our affairs. Go ahead and tell how the Jews deserved the pogroms.
                      4. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 08: 46
                        +1
                        There was a Holocaust Professor, but the number of victims is much less. And listen to you, so the bulk of the Jews were waiting for the occupation of the Germans.
                        The Iranian president suggested setting up an international commission to find out the actual number of victims, but you branded him an anti-Semite. laughing
                      5. Professor
                        Professor 22 February 2021 09: 58
                        -1
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        There was a Holocaust Professor, but the number of victims is much less.

                        You know better than the Jews and Germans themselves.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        And listen to you, so the bulk of the Jews were waiting for the occupation of the Germans.

                        And you do not listen to me, but teach the materiel. Start with which countries opened their borders to European Jews before and during the war. Study the White Book, the refusal of the United States to accept Jews, the business of the USSR in the transit of Jews to China. Read about St. Louis. Although the Natsiks cannot be persuaded. In vain I try.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        The Iranian president suggested setting up an international commission to find out the actual number of victims, but you branded him an anti-Semite.

                        So he is an anti-Semite. However, so are you. Are we to blame for this too?
                      6. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 11: 16
                        +3
                        Quote: Professor
                        Study the White Paper

                        You wrote it yourself - study it yourself. I will focus on independent sources.
                        And what kind of Jewish tricks is it to label everyone who disagrees with you as Nazis?
                      7. Professor
                        Professor 22 February 2021 11: 24
                        -2
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        You wrote it yourself - study it yourself. I will focus on independent sources.

                        I didn't know my name was Malcolm MacDonald. fool

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        And what kind of Jewish tricks is it to label everyone who disagrees with you as Nazis?

                        Not all, but only Natsiks. What can you do, that when the Jews appear, the Nazis are especially noticeable.
                      8. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 11: 36
                        +2
                        Based on the canons of Judaism, you are the Nazis.
                      9. Professor
                        Professor 22 February 2021 12: 25
                        -3
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Based on the canons of Judaism, you are the Nazis.

                        Cycling. Go ahead.
                      10. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 15: 16
                        +2
                        Yes, as bequeathed in the catechism! Templates and labels, no discussion of the essence. good
                      11. Professor
                        Professor 22 February 2021 17: 14
                        -3
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Yes, as bequeathed in the catechism! Templates and labels, no discussion of the essence. good

                        The only thing that needs to be discussed with the Nazis is the place of their further burial. Although I am not sure that anything should be discussed with them at all. It is necessary to finish off those who were not finished off by my grandfathers.
                        Ziguy while I'm good. I won't feed any more today.
                      12. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 18: 31
                        +3
                        If you were a poffessor on your chosen Israeli path, but alone - considering a Natsik a person who considers a Georgian one of the greatest rulers of Russia, and Magomayev one of the greatest voices of Russia. It really needs to be special. fool
                        Do not break your forehead in your prayers, wishing death to the goyim. wink
                      13. Professor
                        Professor 22 February 2021 21: 44
                        -2
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        If you were a poffessor on your chosen Israeli path, but alone - considering a Natsik a person who considers a Georgian one of the greatest rulers of Russia, and Magomayev one of the greatest voices of Russia. It really needs to be special. fool
                        Do not break your forehead in your prayers, wishing death to the goyim. wink

                        Marian Belenky - To Anti-Semites
                        Read more: https://isralove.org/load/24-1-0-1396?utm_source=copy
                      14. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 22 February 2021 22: 00
                        +1
                        I'll give you a hundred links - read, and most importantly you will analyze? No question, come on, with a piece of paper, a pencil, and a calculator. wink
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 21 February 2021 09: 53
    +9
    Well, the Turks recognize the genocide:
    Do not know. why are Jews so fighting for the recognition of the Holocaust?
    1. Professor
      Professor 21 February 2021 10: 21
      -8
      Quote: Gardamir
      Well, the Turks recognize the genocide:
      Do not know. why are Jews so fighting for the recognition of the Holocaust?

      Nowhere are Jews fighting for the recognition of the Holocaust. There is a struggle with deniers for the sole purpose of avoiding repetition.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 11: 06
      -3
      Quote: Gardamir
      Well, the Turks recognize the genocide:
      Do not know. why are Jews so fighting for the recognition of the Holocaust?

      What recognition? laughing Instead of Jews, the participants of the anti-Hitler coalition documented everything 70-77 years ago.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 12: 01
    +4
    Quote: Professor
    to this question they answered: "... and the Turks will return our territories and pay compensation." Why should I ask? "The Republic of Turkey does not bear

    At the expense of the territories is unlikely. But at the expense of compensation ...
    Germany paid compensation to Israel, and maybe even pays it now. And all because Germany has recognized the Holocaust. I would not admit it, and there would be no compensation.
    1. Professor
      Professor 21 February 2021 12: 28
      -1
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Quote: Professor
      to this question they answered: "... and the Turks will return our territories and pay compensation." Why should I ask? "The Republic of Turkey does not bear

      At the expense of the territories is unlikely. But at the expense of compensation ...
      Germany paid compensation to Israel, and maybe even pays it now. And all because Germany has recognized the Holocaust. I would not admit it, and there would be no compensation.

      1. She paid not because she recognized the Holocaust (she recognized the Nuremberg trials), but because she did not want to be an outcast. Turkey is now under no threat, no sanctions. Why should they pay them something to someone?
      2. The Germans are the only ones who learned the lessons of their Holocaust and not because they fell in love with the Jews, but because they realized the price they paid for their behavior. They don't want that anymore. The Turks paid no price and even kept the territory for themselves. Why should they repent before Armenians or Greeks?
      3. Armenia is not in a position to demand something from Turkey. They would not disappear as a country and an ethnic group.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 12: 55
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        1. I didn’t pay because I recognized the Holocaust

        That is why. The fact that, unlike Turkey, she simply could not deny, is another question.
        Quote: Professor
        2. Germans are the only ones who learned the lessons of their Holocaust

        You exaggerate the significance of the "lessons of the Holocaust" in comparison with the lessons of the war they unleashed.
        Quote: Professor
        3. Armenia is not in a position to demand something from Turkey.

        And here I completely agree. But ambitions, high self-esteem, prevent the Armenians from understanding this.
        1. Professor
          Professor 21 February 2021 14: 35
          -2
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          You exaggerate the significance of the "lessons of the Holocaust" in comparison with the lessons of the war they unleashed.

          You ask the Germans themselves. They began to be "brought" from the Nuremberg Laws and the war was already a consequence.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 21 February 2021 15: 12
          -1
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk

          You exaggerate the significance of the "lessons of the Holocaust" in comparison with the lessons of the war they unleashed.

          Greetings, Krasnoyarsk! hi
          If on the practical side of the Holocaust, then the three main consequences of discrimination and extermination of Jews for Germany were / are:
          1) The fall of the image of the Germans (respectively, of German products) in the eyes of the leading economic power - the United States. Monetary losses, critical for the FRG in the 50-60s.
          2) The failure of Hitler to create nuclear weapons - a significant part of the Manhattan project was carried out by Jews from Germany and Austria who fled from the Nazis. Had they stayed in Germany, defeat might have been avoided or, most likely, the agony of the Third Reich could have been dragged out for several years.
          3) Until now, the survival rates of German cancer patients are lower than in Israel and the United States.
          The base of Israeli oncology, theoretical and practical, was built by doctors and scientists - refugees from the anti-Semitic laws of the Reich.
          Some of these Jews emigrated to the United States, providing Americans with a bunch of doctors and inventors for free.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 18: 18
            0
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Greetings, Krasnoyarsk!

            Good health, Krasnodar! hi
            Some of us have misunderstood the words of "Professor", and it's not me -
            Quote: Professor

            2. The Germans are the only ones who learned the lessons of their Holocaust and not because they fell in love with the Jews, but because they realized the price they paid for their behavior.

            It is in the context of these words of the "Professor" I assert that he exaggerates the meaning of the Holocaust in the awareness of the Germans' guilt.
            And, since we are talking about the Holocaust, I want to draw your attention to a certain oddity - in the Baltic States, Jews were not destroyed by the Germans. Yes, with their connivance, which does not cancel their guilt, but still. In Ukraine and Belarus, too, not Germans, but Bandera's. And here and there they were almost completely destroyed. But in Poland they survived up to 45 years. Jews from the Warsaw ghetto took an active part in the Warsaw Uprising. If the Germans were so eager to exterminate the Jews, what prevented them from exterminating the Jews in Warsaw? By the way, the Poles would only be for it.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 43
              -1
              You are confusing the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto of 1944, where the Germans destroyed everyone, and the Warsaw Uprising, where there were very few Jews. The first was earlier, "outside" it was supported weakly, tk. interaction between the Jewish and Polish underground was poorly established.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 21: 57
                0
                Quote: Krasnodar
                You confuse the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1944,

                As part of the Army of Ludova, a detachment of the Jewish military organization took part in the uprising. The Warsaw Uprising was militarily directed against the Germans, politically - against the USSR [7], =
                It is just about the uprising of 44 years from August 1 to October 2.
                And the uprisings in the Warsaw ghetto, if it can be called uprisings, were in 42 and 43, it was a purely Jewish resistance against the deportation of Jews. And yes, somewhere it came to an armed confrontation.
                But once in 44 year there was a "Jewish militant organization" in Warsaw, then not only the Jewish diaspora in Warsaw consisted of them. Ie Jews lived in Warsaw. In Vilnius, Tallinn, Riga, Kiev, Minsk they were not. I'm not even talking about the "Jewish militant organizations" in the listed capitals.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 21 February 2021 22: 09
                  -1
                  You are right i was wrong
                  What is called the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lasted from April 19 to May 16, 1943 and was brutally suppressed by the Nazis.
                  It was an uprising, just as a result, the Germans lost about 20 people killed, and all 12 thousand Jews who inhabited the ghetto were destroyed
                  There was probably a separate detachment of Beitar among the Poles, the question is in numbers - 30? 50? 100? 1000? laughing
                  The Jews remaining in the capitals listed by you were exterminated
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 22: 34
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnodar

                    The Jews remaining in the capitals listed by you were exterminated

                    So we returned to my question - how did it happen that in the occupied territory of the USSR the "Jewish question" was practically resolved within 41-43 years, and in Poland it was never resolved, although the time was much more than 39-44 years. ...
                    I understand that behind the words "the Jewish question has been resolved" lies an incredibly huge grief of people, and it sounds cynical, but what can you do? Somehow it is impossible to get away from this formulation.
                  2. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 21 February 2021 23: 16
                    -1
                    In Poland, there were the most so-called. “The righteous of the peoples of the world”, ie people who sheltered Jews. In addition, at that time the majority of Jews lived there, respectively, someone stayed and eluded the Germans.
                  3. gsev
                    gsev 22 February 2021 02: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    So we returned to my question - how did it happen that in the occupied territory of the USSR the "Jewish question" was practically resolved within 41-43 years, but in Poland it was never resolved,

                    Apparently the point is in the attitude of the area to the Jews. The Germans entrusted the dirty work to the locals and the cruelty in the occupied territories was largely determined by the morals that existed there before the arrival of the Germans. In Denmark, most of the Jews were able to flee to Sweden with the connivance of the Nazi administration and the help of the local population. In Lvov, Jews began to be killed without any orders from the Germans. In Latvia, where practically all Jews were killed, a heroic opera was even filmed about such a murderer.
          2. Professor
            Professor 21 February 2021 22: 36
            -2
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Jews of the Warsaw ghetto took an active part in the Warsaw Uprising. If the Germans were so eager to exterminate the Jews, what prevented them from exterminating the Jews in Warsaw?

            Logistics, CEP. They destroyed 90% of the Jews of Poland, and this is EMNIP 2.7 - 3 million. If the Jews did not resist and would not hide, then there would not be a single Jew left.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 21 February 2021 23: 03
              0
              Quote: Professor
              Logistics,

              Well, I don’t know, I don’t know. Something here does not fit with the logic.
              With such a strong desire of the Germans to destroy the Jews, it turned out in the Baltics, in Ukraine and Belarus, with a friendly attitude towards the Jews of the local population, (Soviet upbringing) almost succeeded, and in Poland, with, in general, a negative attitude of the Poles towards Jews, Did not work out. Isn't it strange? Would give the solution to this question to the Poles and the whole short-lived. But no.
              1. gsev
                gsev 22 February 2021 02: 38
                -1
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                The Baltics succeeded, in Ukraine and Belarus, with a friendly attitude towards the Jews of the local population, (Soviet upbringing) almost succeeded, but in Poland, with, in general, the negative attitude of Poles towards Jews, it did not work.

                It must be admitted that many in the USSR tied their lot with the Germans. People whose relatives died in the revolution, collectivization, in the fight against the clergy, in the course of the repressions, might have a temptation to avenge the persecutions as part of the German punitive organs. In Poland, there was no such base among the Poles dissatisfied with the government.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 22 February 2021 10: 16
                  0
                  Quote: gsev
                  It must be admitted that in the USSR, many tied their fate with the Germans.

                  Just let's not ...
                  More than 10 thousand Jews in the uniform of the Wehrmacht and privates and officers were captured by the Red Army. Were these also dissatisfied with the Soviet regime?
              2. andreykolesov123
                andreykolesov123 22 February 2021 08: 02
                0
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                and in Poland, despite the generally negative attitude of the Poles towards Jews, it did not work out. Isn't it strange?

                The Germans succeeded in everything in Poland. The Judenfrei in Poland was higher than in Germany itself. About one person in a thousand survived, while in Germany the Judenfrei was 1 person in a hundred. 300 thousand Polish Jews emerged from the Soviet evacuation after the war. However, in the 60s they were all deported to Israel. Now there are about 5 thousand Jews living in Poland, half of them are Catholics.
              3. Professor
                Professor 22 February 2021 09: 35
                -1
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                With such a strong desire of the Germans to destroy the Jews, it turned out in the Baltics, in Ukraine and Belarus, with a friendly attitude towards the Jews of the local population, (Soviet upbringing) almost succeeded, and in Poland, with, in general, a negative attitude of the Poles towards Jews, Did not work out.

                The Jewish population of Poland before the war was about 3. This is not comparable to the Baltic, Ukraine and Belarus combined. The local population did not have a friendly attitude towards Jews anywhere. Soviet education. By the way, most of the Righteous of the World are in Poland. It was the Poles who saved the Jews the most. These are indisputable facts.

                The most Judenfar country is Holland. They exterminated most of all Jews (in percentage terms).
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 22 February 2021 10: 12
                  0
                  Quote: Professor

                  The most Judenfar country is Holland. They exterminated most of all Jews (in percentage terms).

                  Well, the Poles are saints. But Holland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - the countries in which the local population killed the Jews, why do not these countries pay compensation to Israel, but only Germany?
                  Just don’t think that I am whitewashing Germany. I'm just asking questions.
                2. Professor
                  Professor 22 February 2021 10: 28
                  -1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Well, the Poles are saints. But Holland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - the countries in which the local population killed the Jews, why do not these countries pay compensation to Israel, but only Germany?

                  For the same reason why the Russian Federation, Ukraine or Belarus do not pay compensation to Israel, despite the fact that the local population also exterminated Jews. The occupier is responsible for what is happening in the occupied territories. In this case, it is Germany. By the way, Germany does not pay compensation to Israel, but only to Israeli citizens as well as Russian citizens.
              4. gsev
                gsev 23 February 2021 01: 25
                0
                Quote: Professor
                The most Judenfar country is Holland.

                There may be another explanation for this. Holland is a densely populated country, where there are no forests to hide from deportation and arrest, where it is simply impossible for the underground to get food. On the other hand, since 1940 the country has been closest to Great Britain. In it, the punitive organs are diligently looking for British intelligence officers and, along the way, uncover all the underground structures. Therefore, in Holland, the Germans not only caught a lot of Jews, but also almost all British intelligence officers.
              5. Professor
                Professor 23 February 2021 07: 55
                -1
                Quote: gsev
                Quote: Professor
                The most Judenfar country is Holland.

                There may be another explanation for this. Holland is a densely populated country, where there are no forests to hide from deportation and arrest, where it is simply impossible for the underground to get food. On the other hand, since 1940 the country has been closest to Great Britain. In it, the punitive organs are diligently looking for British intelligence officers and, along the way, uncover all the underground structures. Therefore, in Holland, the Germans not only caught a lot of Jews, but also almost all British intelligence officers.

                Was it only the Germans who "caught" the Jews? Local Natsiks did their best. In general, local Nazis and collaborators everywhere tried more than the Germans. What do you think the Nazis from this site would be doing if they were now in 1941?
                Regarding the forests, you cannot hide in the forest for 3 years without the help of the local population.
                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC_%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B5
              6. gsev
                gsev 24 February 2021 13: 25
                0
                Quote: Professor
                In general, local Nazis and collaborators everywhere tried more than the Germans.
                Anti-Semitism is not the only force in history. Many actions are caused by the desire of a person to integrate into power and society. Surely a considerable part went to serve the Germans because of the expectation that the Germans would win and their power would be stable. For example, in the Crimea, a large detachment of Crimean Tatars at first effectively and diligently caught the partisans and those hiding in the forests, and then fought against the Germans. And now, many are retraining the language in the Baltics and Ukraine and become inveterate.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 21 February 2021 18: 54
      -1
      Oh..
      Why not make orders to the Turks, from whom the Jews have not seen anything bad in their entire history (before the arrival of Erdogan and something like that some time intervals)? They saw a lot of good things, by the way. The Turks accepted us naked and barefoot after the expulsion from Spain, for example.
      Genocide remains genocide, of course. But - where is moral prostitution?
      The USSR did not officially recognize the Armenian genocide, recognizing de facto the massacre. Israel in 1948 simply copied this position, because: Armenia was part of the Soviet Union.
      Since Armenia gained independence, due to the war with Azerbaijan, relations with Iran, the only "non-hostile" border, are more important. Therefore, the RA voted in the UN for all anti-Israel resolutions, just like Azerbaijan and Turkey. But the latter are Muslim countries, you can understand them. Plus they bring economic and not only benefits to Israel (Azerbaijan in the confrontation with Iran).
      There is zero benefit from Armenia, moreover, Armenian scientists are working in Iran on projects in the field of weapons development.
      Therefore, the Israeli position both in terms of the official recognition of the genocide and in terms of cooperation with Azerbaijan, where Jews also always felt very good, remains unchanged. hi
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 21 February 2021 19: 12
        +5
        There is zero benefit from Armenia, ....


        Yes, and you are of no use to us, and we have traditionally good relations with the Germans, so we should have left them to strangle you? There is also morality, and I do not condemn inter-state relations - there is no morality, but on a personal level, to show such a position is at the seams.

        If it were not for the moral position of the Bulgarian people and that is massive, but only useful, then your sonarists would have left to smell Cyclone ...
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 21 February 2021 19: 25
          -1
          Are you talking about the Bulgarians of the Jewish faith? lol Well, no good, so it was necessary to give us to the Germans. fellow Now no one would have condemned you for this, by the way.
          On a personal level, Armenia was offered Israeli weapons. Fact. Refused. She preferred to buy junk from Jordan for a lot of money. Why - the answer is clear.
          Armenian militants from ASALA fought against both Lebanese Christians and the IDF, on the side of the Palestinians.
          Associations with the Holocaust - the Karabakh Armenians were not defenseless civilians who came to slaughter the evil Azerbaijani soldiers. They have their own armed forces, which the Jews did not have in the 1930-1940s.
        2. andreykolesov123
          andreykolesov123 22 February 2021 08: 14
          +1
          Quote: Keyser Soze
          Yes, and you are of no use to us, and we have traditionally good relations with the Germans, so we should have left them to strangle you?

          Why didn't the Bulgarians help the Armenians? Did Bulgaria transfer at least one machine gun to Armenia?
  • Alex russia
    Alex russia 21 February 2021 22: 25
    +1
    Well, in general, it was Ataturk who rampaged after the Ottomans, i.e. modern Turkish state.
    And why shouldn't the Jews also give up the constant trolling of Germany, so they turned genocide into a religion? why double standards.
    Turks pursued a policy of genocide against other peoples, Greeks, Assyrians ...
    1. andreykolesov123
      andreykolesov123 22 February 2021 08: 17
      +1
      Quote: Alex Russia
      And why shouldn't the Jews also give up the constant trolling of Germany?

      Because if you do not always stick the Germans in their own shit, they will instantly return to the state of 1939 with all the ensuing consequences.
  • dSK
    dSK 21 February 2021 07: 37
    +5
    Transport aviation is expensive. If Turkey is tightly "friends" with Islamic Iran and it blocks Armenia's air corridor to Russia and not only, it will be complete blockade of Armenia...
  • Flooding
    Flooding 21 February 2021 21: 42
    +2
    The essence of the problem is not the blockade of the Turkish-Armenian railway. lines.
    The most problematic in the railway. to / from Armenia is the blocking by Azerbaijan of direct transport from / to Russia through its territory.
    From the Russian Federation to Armenia it is necessary to transport through Georgia. And since the direct communication between Russia and Georgia also does not work after the events of 08.08.08, then via seaports or sea railway. ferry crossing.
    This is the main problem for Armenia - blocking direct communication with Russia.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 21 February 2021 07: 35
    +3
    In other words, Russia has lost its influence in the Transcaucasus; there are already other players here.
  • saigon
    saigon 21 February 2021 07: 44
    0
    In an interesting way through Akhalkalaki, how will the partisans start tearing the rails?
    There are many Armenians living in the Akhalkalaki region.
  • CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 21 February 2021 10: 24
    +1
    Here the main thing is the issue of the payment by the Turks of compensations to the Armenians for the genocide, and not the memory of their ancestors, if Turkey recognizes the genocide, then according to international laws there are large payments to the injured party, and taking into account the progressing poor in poverty-stricken Armenia, this tale of Turkish pseudo-payments to Pashinyans can be fed to your people more long
  • Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 21 February 2021 13: 10
    +3
    Abstracting from the Armenian-Turkic Turks --- what we have. That's right, the southern flank of NATO conducted an overall successful operation. The toothless policy of friendliness and partnership gave its expected sprouts --- they chopped off another piece from the legacy of the USSR.
  • ironic
    ironic 21 February 2021 13: 22
    -3
    The following solution would be relevant. The Turkish side agrees to recognize the war crime and pay compensation to the descendants of the victims, while the Armenian side rejects the term genocide in defining this crime. This would be also historically true by the way.
    1. motorized rifle
      motorized rifle 21 February 2021 20: 01
      0
      And the question of trust? Suppose that such an agreement is reached and suppose that one of the parties recognizes genocide. Turkey, for example, recognizes that the Ottoman Empire committed a war crime, and Armenia will take and will not abandon the term "genocide", what then? The Turks have everything, the reverse will give nothing, the word has been said (like we have with Katyn), and the Armenians, based on the recognition of the Turks, can increase the pressure, for them it may be fictitious, but revenge. Or vice versa, they do not trust each other (to put it mildly). That is why such an exchange is proposed by Turkey: You renounce the genocide, and we will unblock the road for you (without any confessions there). For there is a chance to take advantage of the bad political, economic, and geographical position of Armenia. In addition, Turkey and Armenia are currently not in equilibrium. Woe to the vanquished!
      1. ironic
        ironic 21 February 2021 22: 33
        -3
        Such things are concluded at a negotiated level with a mediator and ratified. And so yes. Armenia is now at a disadvantage.
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 21 February 2021 18: 28
    0
    Driving trains through Georgia and Azerbaijan means paying for transit to two fascist states. Enough of the Tribaltic sisters.
    1. ironic
      ironic 21 February 2021 22: 35
      -2
      Azerbaijan is a fascist city? Are you delusional? Did you check for Karon?
      No, well, I understand that the Russian Federation had a conflict with Georgia, you don’t like it, but fascism? This is overkill.
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 22 February 2021 11: 19
    +1
    Yes, they began in health and ended for the repose. An article about Armenians and Turks, as usual, fell on Jews and the Holocaust. I'll try to add my own couple of cents. How so.
    Germans such and such oppressed and destroyed their Jews ---- And the Jewish military units up to 43 years old, fought on the side of the Germans in Palestine and the Middle East.
    Among the prisoners of war in the Red Army, Jews occupied the honorable 2nd place.
    The Knight of the Iron Cross visits his parent in a concentration camp and then back to the Eastern Front, beyond the Oak Leaves.
    One of the leaders of Germany says, I myself decide who is a Jew and who is not.
    Not so simple.
  • Old26
    Old26 22 February 2021 17: 44
    +3
    Quote: Destiny
    This topic will never be closed for Armenia.

    There is such an expression: "Either put on your panties, or take off the cross"
    So it is with the Armenians. In 2011, my family was vacationing in Turkey. On the first day, the wife and daughter plus her friend and daughter "rushed" to the shops near the hotel (a relatively small shopping center among 6-7 hotels). We went to a store selling EMNIP fur. At the store, two pairs of boys are playing backgammon. I stand and watch. One made a not very successful move and I involuntarily chuckled. One of those who finished the game asked me immediately in Russian (apparently heard part of my conversation with my wife). We started talking. It turned out that he himself was from Yerevan, studied in Stavropol (he was asking what was new in the city). When asked what he was doing here, he said that in the summer he worked part-time with an aunt who kept the shops... When asked about genocide, he simply dismissed it. He is remembered, as he said, when it is necessary to "get something" from this historical event. And the genocide of the beginning of the twentieth century now does not prevent Armenians from doing their own business, incl. and in Turkey

    Quote: Krasnodar
    Exaggerating the number of victims ?? What does this have to do with compensation? They are given for financial damage, not for genocide.
    From 2 million Jews were killed on the territory of the USSR.

    I don’t know how correct this judgment is about financial damage and not genocide.
    Let me explain my question. When we lived in Ukraine in the early 60s, we became family friends with a Jewish family. From the side of the head of the family, all relatives were destroyed during the war. On the part of the mistress of the house, about half survived, incl. and a mother who survived the war. The head of the family received compensation "for his relatives", his wife did not. Although it is not clear what financial damage could be compensated for the inhabitants of the USSR ...
    How can this be compared with the situation I described
  • yehat2
    yehat2 April 6 2021 11: 05
    0
    both the Israelis and the Armenians are overdoing it with genocide.
    indeed, there were massacres, but were they so unfounded and why is it not called revenge?
    Jews were suspected of their own quiet genocide of those with whom they settled to live.
    This was the main accusation against Jews in Germany and a number of other countries.
    The Armenians were accused of open rebellion. And now the question is being posed as a one-sided genocide, accepted by the sick people.
    This is the trap to avoid. The Armenians themselves admit that the suppression of the rebellion (very bloody) is still not a one-sided genocide. Otherwise, everyone simply makes impossible claims to each other and this will never end.
    The same thing happened in NK - both sides exchanged for many years impracticable demands and inadequate statements. Both sides engaged in ethnic cleansing and partial genocide - that's why ???