Military Review

Experiences of Admiral Rozhdestvensky

576
Experiences of Admiral Rozhdestvensky

The first letter to his wife Olga Nikolaevna Antipova is dated 4 September 1904 years from Reval (Tallinn).


The commander notes:

“In Revel, the week passed unnoticed, but it cannot be said that it was very successful: constant breakdowns of cars, electric motors, disturbances on ships and the often choppy sea interfere with learning much that was planned ...

Our position is very bad and will not get better. The Japanese will give you more than we are able to ...

One governor Alekseev raised his head, who took, he says, appointing independent leaders: the army and fleet.

Now I step into my rights and ask you to explain to me exactly how you intend to get out of the situation you have created. Where is your squadron - what is it?

Don't move until I give my thoughts and orders. "

The admiral describes two problems - technology and dual power.

The technique does not allow to fulfill the plan of the exercises in its base. And instructions from several instances do not allow you to act according to your plan.

Teachings (I will humbly note) were. If you look not only at letters - and firing (artillery and torpedo), and maneuvering.

In 16 days Zinovy ​​writes:

“I will be whole, you will pay for all the insults. And I will gladly accept your apology

but I will go for a walk where Makar did not drive calves - the road is a tablecloth;

I am of little use now;

and I myself am completely at peace for you, and for Lelya, and for all my loved ones ...

Even though we are still completely peasants, it is impossible to learn a lot neither in Revel, nor in Lyubava, anywhere else in the Gulf of Finland ...

Yes, and we missed all the best times for the passage of bad places.

If they left on September 1, then in wonderful weather they would have reached the southern latitudes by this time. "

I remember Bukhvostov's words:

"We will all die, but we will not surrender."

The assessment is sober - preparation is weak, the weather will not allow further studies, a hike through Biscay in October is really dangerous ...

All the people in the squadron understood. They understood, but they went.

Because - an oath and a duty.

Another question is that one cannot expect success with such and such moods. But the problem was far from mood.

1 October again:

“Every day there are minor breakdowns, even during stops, what can we expect on the way, and even in October weather, which came into their own here.

They see us off very kindly.

The more shameful the failure will be. "

And about the same - there is no chance.

Separately about the Hull incident in a letter from 15 October:

“The British either set up the incident, or are dragged into the situation by the Japanese from which there is no easy way out.

Without a doubt, the Anglo-Japanese alliance provides for armed assistance when needed.

The need has obviously arrived.

And the pretext is the most correct, from their point of view. "

The opinion is biased, but well-founded.

Rozhdestvensky's intelligence was intimidated by just such scenarios - either by an attack by Japanese destroyers on the way, or by an attack by the British. We are smart now, but then ...

The commander saw the situation through the eyes of the Foreign Ministry and intelligence.

But what these organizations saw was a matter of serious research. On the topic of what it was: sabotage, corruption, or impenetrable stupidity?

Four days later:

“We have become weak everything is at the root, and with such general painful weakness the extravagant enterprise of our renowned 2nd squadron it's hard to count on chance even.

Wait and see,

and now we will crawl on ships that are capable of moving in calm weather no further than 1500 miles;

we will puzzle over how to step over stations with them in 2000 and 2300 miles long. "

Highlighted would be in stone and on walls.

And, by the way, about coal transshipments.

Well, that's why they filled all the premises with coal? Why?

Fools probably ...

24 October:

“I have thirteen ships in service.

We go like this: Kamchatka, Suvorov, Meteor, Emperor Alexander III, Anadyr, Borodino, Malaya, Oryol, Korea, Oslyabya, Nakhimov, Enquist's flag, Dmitry Donskoy, Aurora.

At night, this herd is sometimes crowded, running over each other, so that there is a danger of collision, then it stretches so that you are afraid of losing some sheep.

Breakdowns happen on everyone. "

And again the technical condition.

Well, and a complete inability to keep the formation, which, given the lack of sailing and different maneuverable characteristics, in fact, is not surprising.

Two questions run like a red thread through all the letters - breakdowns and intelligence reports that the Japanese are literally around the corner.

Next letter at the end of November and again:

“The machines of our ships, meanwhile, wear out and break down daily, now at one, now at another.

And you cannot enter any port, not only for repairs, but also for the bulkhead of cars.

And this is with a squadron, which, including transports and destroyers, recruits up to 50 ships and 12 people. "

From Madagascar, the admiral answers why around Africa, and not the Suez Canal:

“Of course, they will say: the fool was free to choose a roundabout way - deliberately delaying the voyage.

And these will lie.

Because half of them were sent by the shortest route, and they also did not stand anywhere else, but should come and, I hope, will come to the connection only three days before me.

And this half could not have come so soon if it had to wait for the passage of my large detachment by the Suez Canal, from which every ship before entering the canal should have completely unloaded, and after the passage again be loaded.

They will say that I chose the point of connection of the detachments aside from the direct path in order to prolong the voyage.

And they will also lie, because on the straight path there is not a single hole where you can stick yourself: everything is English;

but the British can't rub their glasses: they will prevent the squadrons from stopping in their waters by force. "

And adds:

“After all, the sailors even wrote that the passage of the squadron from Kronstadt to Port Arthur takes sixty days, and when I first said six months, they goggled.

But we have been going for the third month and have not made another half of the way. "

Separately about the parking in Nossibeisk:


«7 January... The Germans changed at the most decisive moment ...

I don’t know how to get out, especially with Fyodor Karlovich, whom the chancellery ate completely ...

And for us any delay here is disastrous; it allows the Japanese to make extensive preparations.

We ourselves find ourselves in a period of hurricanes, which can destroy half of our ships without any participation of the Japanese.

An evil fate hangs over the Russian fleet.

Do not get in the way of our Headquarters, our diplomatic offices were not in a panic mood, do not shout like that at all crossroads ... ten days ago we would have set off on a further journey.

I don't know what will happen next, but now the matter is shameful ...

He sent the most energetic appeals to Petersburg.

Will they not move?

But even if they do move, the answer here to the telegrams will have to wait ten days.

And now everyone is so terribly dear ...

17 January... I was supposed to be on the other side of the Indian Ocean on your birthday, and the damned office is holding it. And I don't know how long it will last ...

The prohibition on me to move on until the orders, sent by the Highest command ...

Yet I now have no matter what strength, people know each other.

We may not defeat the Japanese, but they also cannot defeat us.

Why is all this ruining? "

Summary.

The squadron, which could slip through in February - early March, was detained by the highest order. And she came in May.

We got Tsushima, of which Zinovy ​​is guilty, of course. Not the author of the highest command.

Judging by the letters, six months of the transition is March, with luck - February.

At this time it was quite possible to slip through without a battle.

In fact, with Rozhestvensky, the St. Petersburg team acted like cheaters - they changed the rules during the game.

The "love" of Zinovy ​​for Clado is also interesting:

“Can it be that poor Klado has mixed up the Petersburg brains?

Is it really not clear to them that the more numerous the rabble of any bastard, the more impossible it is for them to cope, the more chances are to beat this bastard in parts where these parts will fall off due to various troubles ...

Obviously, I need to be replaced, especially since as the chief chief. pestilence. headquarters, I turned out to be worthless, did not make acquaintance with pikes. And at their behest, he did not prepare for dispatch all those unprepared and outlived ships, of which a simple captain of the 2nd rank Klado finds it possible to form a third squadron in a few weeks.

Since my sin will be corrected, and Klado is right, of course, there is no need to endure my fictitious service any longer in the main naval headquarters.

The articles of which, it seems to me, aroused only anger and malice in Zinovy, like any professional's opinion of an amateur.

Nevertheless, the emperor listened to the opinion of the journalist Klado, and not the commander.

And, I think, in connection with this, the following letter:

“Maybe one of these days you will hear at my address - a scoundrel and a scoundrel.

Don't really believe it, tell them that I am neither one nor the other, but just a person who does not have the necessary data to cope with the task.

I even think that God forbid what happens to me, the rest of my admirals will cope with this task even worse, and I ask you to send Chukhnin in advance, so that, what good, do not leave the squadron in a stateless state. "

All these heroes of alternative descriptions of RYAV on the topic

"What would happen if a genius was at the head"

- The Skrydlovs, Dubasovs, Chukhnins never arrived at the squadron.

All the same people led her into battle - Rozhdestvensky, who was desperate from misunderstanding, the sick Felkzerzam, and the ex-mayor Enquist.

Later appeared still endured - Nebogatov.

There were no other willing admirals among dozens of admirals.

And one last before the battle:

"Yes, whatever the events of the coming days, the end result is nothing but a new page of Russia's shame."

April 16 1905 years.

Conclusion


The letters were written not for the prosecutor, not for colleagues, his beloved (judging by his tone) wife. And nobody would be cunning in such papers.

What do we see?

There was a plan - to slip through in bad weather, while the Japanese put the fleet in order in Vladivostok.

The plan was thwarted.

There was a suggestion:

"I cannot defeat the Japanese (and no one could) - change it."

Have not changed.

As a result - Tsushima, of which, of course, a mediocrity is guilty. Not a system.

The blockhead offered to hold a trump card for negotiations in the theater of operations. He was not given.

The fool was in a hurry. And geniuses (like Clado and the emperor himself) slowed down.

The dumbass shouted - we will lose the battle. They didn't listen to him ...

There were definitely geniuses upstairs. Where are the sailors ...

It's nothing you can do. Is in our stories heroic figures. And there are tragic persons, with which the leaders covered their sins and sins.

Zinovy ​​stands out against the general background.

Exactly he was made the ideal scapegoat for the bureaucracy and the complete military-political failure of the government.
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  1. Comrade
    Comrade 17 February 2021 05: 06
    +9
    Could it be that poor Clado had mixed up the Petersburg brains?
    Obviously, I need to be replaced, I did not make all those unprepared and outlived ships for dispatch, from which the simple captain of the 2nd rank Klado finds it possible to form a third squadron in a few weeks.

    So the tsar had to appoint Klado commander, put him on the flagship "Peter the Great" and send him to fight the Japanese. I suppose the liberal public would howl with delight.
  2. Destiny
    Destiny 17 February 2021 05: 32
    +13
    As a result - Tsushima, of which, of course, a mediocrity is guilty. Not a system.

    At all times it has been and remains even in the smallest production - it is easier for the bosses to appoint an extreme worker or a master of some kind, and even forget than to look for reasons.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 06: 33
      +24
      Quote: Destiny
      At all times it has been and remains even in the smallest production - it is easier for the bosses to appoint an extreme worker or a master of some kind, and even forget how to look for reasons

      I will be cruel, but in this case, "systemic mediocrity."
      You can treat the admiral differently, victory has many fathers, and defeat is an orphan, but the principle of one-man management has not been canceled. For almost six months on the campaign, it was possible at least to bring down the team and teach maneuvers. At the very least, gain respect and authority from the teams. And in the above translated lines, only "snot and drool" God forgive me.
      If we take essentially "everyone around, people and iron, are to blame, only I am white and fluffy placed above them."
      All the good days!
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 17 February 2021 07: 08
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        the principle of one-man management has not been canceled. For almost six months on the campaign, it was possible at least to bring down the team and teach maneuvers. At the very least, gain respect and authority from the teams. And in the above translated lines, only "snot and drool"

        hi exactly!

        And yes, what is the commander, crying in advance about defeat and nothing not doing to prevent it?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 07: 55
          +20
          Quote: Olgovich
          And yes, what is a commander worth, crying in advance about defeat and doing nothing to prevent it?

          Yeah. I didn’t teach the squadron to maneuver, didn’t conduct firing, and didn’t make the most difficult passage across half the world. Didn't do anything, well that's absolutely
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 41
              +7
              Quote: 2534M
              as for the transition, you can compare 1895 and 1905 ...

              laughing good
              So go ahead! Compare. I hunt to laugh.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 50
                  +7
                  Quote: 2534M
                  it took Makarov and Rozhdestvensky only 72 days to concentrate a reserve from the Mediterranean in the Far East from receiving the order

                  That is, the fact that in 1895 the ships of the squadron could use any port at their discretion for loading coal and current repairs, and in 1904-5 Rozhestvensky was forbidden to enter ports - this is nonsense, not worth attention. About the size of the EMNIP Mediterranean detachment as much as 10 ships: EBR "Emperor Nicholas I", cruisers "Pamyat Azov" and "Vladimir Monomakh", gunboats "Thundering" and "Brave", mine cruisers "Horseman" and "Gaydamak", destroyers "Sveaborg "," Revel "and" Borgo ", in comparison with the squadron of Rozhdestvensky - are also forgotten. About the complexity of the passage of the Suez Canal with so many ships - too.
                  Thank you, laughed heartily
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 17 February 2021 11: 59
                    +4
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    in 1895, the ships of the squadron could use any port at their discretion for loading coal and current repairs, and in 1904-5

                    You have forgotten the timing of these operations
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    About the size of the EMNIP Mediterranean detachment as much as 10 ships: EBR "Emperor Nicholas I", cruisers "Pamyat Azov" and "Vladimir Monomakh", gunboats "Thundering" and "Brave", mine cruisers "Horseman" and "Gaydamak", destroyers "Sveaborg "," Revel "and" Borgo ", in comparison with the squadron of Rozhdestvensky - are also forgotten.

                    no, I haven't forgotten
                    you forgot about the story with the squadron of Virenius and Rozhdestvensky in 1903
                    despite the fact that sane was clear that it was going to war
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 12: 48
                      +7
                      Quote: 2534M
                      You have forgotten the timing of these operations

                      Not. I forgot to add 2TOE downtime by order from above in order to wait for reinforcements, and "the great stand in Madagascar", which is also not a Christmas author.
                      1. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 12: 54
                        +4
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Not. I forgot to add 2TOE downtime by order from above in order to wait for reinforcements, and "the great stand in Madagascar", which is also not a Christmas author.

                        do not play
                        from Rozhdestvensky DIRECTLY DEPENDENT that the plans for concentration that were - were fulfilled, how they were "carried out" - see Virenius
                        and only then at VTE, he himself "slurped" what he "welded" before (to a large part PERSONALLY)
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 16: 53
                        +3
                        Quote: 2534M
                        do not play

                        Is that you for me? :)))) First, they compared 1895 with 1904, then, when it didn't work, they rushed to remember Virenius? :))) And I'm still playing after that?
                        Your comparison of 1895 with 2TOE is simply the judgment of an utterly biased person, which could still be excused if this person had no knowledge of the sea. As for Virenius, this is a separate, difficult, and controversial question (although, as for me, Rozhdestvensky's role here is rather negative, this is one of his mistakes), why bother him here?
                      3. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 17: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Are you talking to me?

                        You
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        First they compared 1895 to 1904,

                        for it is appropriate
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        when it didn't work

                        how did it work
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Your comparison of 1895 with 2TOE is just the judgment of an utterly biased person

                        this is just a very reasonable comparison
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        As for Virenius

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        why weave it here?

                        weird question
          2. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 17 February 2021 20: 16
            +1
            Andrey, good evening.
            I respect you very much, but let me have a small sentence: instead of "compare" write: "compare. I want to laugh," the meaning remains the same, and you will demonstrate your cult.
            Once you doubtfully agreed that you can not poke.
            R.
            S
            I really miss your historical stories. Thanks to you, I have learned so much. So I want more
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 07: 12
              +2
              You are the second person to reproach me for the lack of good manners. I am ashamed repeat
          3. unknown
            unknown 18 February 2021 23: 03
            +1
            There are researchers who directly identify the Spanish-American War of 1898 and the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.
            Then it is worth comparing the transition of the Server squadron and the transition of the Rozhdestvensky squadron.
        2. Roman81
          17 February 2021 11: 23
          +2
          That is, you don't need to shoot and maneuver? Peacetime training program OVERFULFILLED. Weren't there enough prayers and Zen tsakugu mastered ...
          1. 2534M
            2534M 17 February 2021 11: 54
            +1
            Quote: Roman81
            Training program peaceful time OVERFULFILLED

            YOU highlighted the wrong word
            I'm not even talking about the "war experience" ...
            1. Roman81
              17 February 2021 16: 41
              +1
              The whole experience is a bunch of reports hot on the heels with a bunch of inaccuracies. That we shoot them well, but the old man Rurik let down / the admiral was killed ...
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 17 February 2021 12: 29
            +8
            Quote: Roman81
            That is, you don't need to shoot and maneuver?

            Just to shoot his squadron Rozhestvensky taught.
          3. unknown
            unknown 18 February 2021 23: 10
            0
            To begin with, you should correctly formulate the task.
            And Rozhestvensky, the tactical problem was solved by ways of solving the strategic problem.
            That is why I missed many opportunities.
            Outsmart himself.
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 45
        +4
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I did not teach the squadron to maneuver, did not conduct firing, and did not complete the most difficult passage across half the world. Didn't do anything, well that's absolutely

        can be compared with the crossing of Nebogatov - he passed his ships without noise, but managed to align the rangefinders, for example ... request
      3. geniy
        geniy 17 February 2021 15: 30
        +5
        Do you love Rozhestvensky so much that you don’t want to notice his incompetent management of the squadron? You probably don't know that before his death, Admiral Makarov literally begged that the simplest two-flag system for issuing orders to ships should be adopted, and Rozhestvensky adopted a four-flag system. And when two squadrons - Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov - met, and Rozhdestvensky arranged exercises with maneuvering, then, as Cap2 Semenov noted, it often turned out to be "an ugly heap formation" - that is, the third squadron did not understand the second. Naturally, all Rozhdestvensky lovers dump all the blame from a sore head on a healthy one - they say, well, they have not learned how to maneuver. And the reason was quite the opposite!
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 18 February 2021 10: 08
          +1
          Quote: geniy
          Do you love Rozhestvensky so much that you don’t want to notice his incompetent management of the squadron? You probably don't know that before his death, Admiral Makarov literally begged that the simplest two-flag system for issuing orders to ships should be adopted, and Rozhestvensky adopted a four-flag system. And when two squadrons - Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov - met, and Rozhdestvensky arranged exercises with maneuvering, then, as Cap2 Semenov noted, it often turned out to be "an ugly heap formation" - that is, the third squadron did not understand the second. Naturally, all Rozhdestvensky lovers dump all the blame from a sore head on a healthy one - they say, well, they have not learned how to maneuver. And the reason was quite the opposite!

          Well, you do not idealize Makarov either. Who promoted lightweight shells?
          1. geniy
            geniy 18 February 2021 10: 53
            +1
            Well, you do not idealize Makarov either. Who promoted lightweight shells?

            So he promoted correctly! The fact is that at that time everyone saw a decisive artillery-torpedo-ramming battle only at a distance of no more than 10 cables, and at this distance, lightweight armor-piercing shells have the best armor penetration. And the Japanese began to fight at a distance of 30 to 80 cab - for armor penetration, this is completely ineffective. And they suffered with the Russians for as much as 5 hours - and they could have won in general - if the Russians themselves had not sunk 3 battleships of the "Borodino" type because of a bad fight for survivability. Armored Russian ships were generally unsinkable by Japanese high-explosive shells because they could not penetrate even thin armor. Even the outdated "Nikolai 1". And even the outdated "Dmitry Donskoy" fought against 6 Japanese cruisers and they could not sink it - until he threw himself on the rocks in the evening.
            1. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 18 February 2021 12: 36
              +1
              Quote: geniy
              Well, you do not idealize Makarov either. Who promoted lightweight shells?

              So he promoted correctly! The fact is that at that time everyone saw a decisive artillery-torpedo-ramming battle only at a distance of no more than 10 cables, and at this distance, lightweight armor-piercing shells have the best armor penetration. And the Japanese began to fight at a distance of 30 to 80 cab - for armor penetration, this is completely ineffective. And they suffered with the Russians for as much as 5 hours - and they could have won in general - if the Russians themselves had not sunk 3 battleships of the "Borodino" type because of a bad fight for survivability. Armored Russian ships were generally unsinkable by Japanese high-explosive shells because they could not penetrate even thin armor. Even the outdated "Nikolai 1". And even the outdated "Dmitry Donskoy" fought against 6 Japanese cruisers and they could not sink it - until he threw himself on the rocks in the evening.

              The problems of the Japanese are their problems. But the fact that there were fewer Russians in the bb and land mines, this prevented the Russians from defeating the Japanese. So it is not known who suffered with whom
              1. geniy
                geniy 19 February 2021 11: 34
                0
                The problems of the Japanese are their problems, but the fact that there were fewer Russians in BB and land mines, this prevented the Russians from defeating the Japanese

                Let me ask you - is this your personal opinion or did all the Russian officers think in the same way before the beginning of the RJAV?
                And I would also like to know from all admiral Rozhdestvensky's admirers: did the entot admiral also think that there was little explosive in Russian shells? After all, as you know: Rozhestvensky was the head of the training and artillery detachment and therefore he was obliged to know better than anyone else the combat properties of the properties of Russian shells in comparison with shells of other fleets. So, I ask a question to all fans of Rozhdestvensky: did he personally send weekly reports to the tsar that Russian shells contain little explosives? Maybe Rozhestvensky wrote articles in the newspapers that the Russian fleet was equipped with bad shells?
                1. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 20 February 2021 08: 35
                  0
                  Quote: geniy
                  The problems of the Japanese are their problems, but the fact that there were fewer Russians in BB and land mines, this prevented the Russians from defeating the Japanese

                  Let me ask you - is this your personal opinion or did all the Russian officers think in the same way before the beginning of the RJAV?
                  And I would also like to know from all admiral Rozhdestvensky's admirers: did the entot admiral also think that there was little explosive in Russian shells? After all, as you know: Rozhestvensky was the head of the training and artillery detachment and therefore he was obliged to know better than anyone else the combat properties of the properties of Russian shells in comparison with shells of other fleets. So, I ask a question to all fans of Rozhdestvensky: did he personally send weekly reports to the tsar that Russian shells contain little explosives? Maybe Rozhestvensky wrote articles in the newspapers that the Russian fleet was equipped with bad shells?

                  The answer is in your post above. The Russians were preparing to fight at close distances, and the stupid Japanese at long distances. And you can't change the ammunition in 5 minutes. Both Makarov and Rozhestvensky adhered to outdated tactics. And all the officers of the fleet with them. And after that they began to shoot. at long distances. the problem is that the winner is the one who masters the advanced methods of warfare, and not the one who, sitting in the office, comes up with fuses and shells that have not been tested in practice
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 20 February 2021 21: 06
                    +3
                    Quote: Pilat2009
                    The Russians were preparing to fight at close range, and the stupid Japanese at long range, and you can't change the ammunition in 5 minutes. Both Makarov and Rozhestvensky adhered to outdated tactics.

                    Wrong answer. Tactics become obsolete only when they knowingly lose to a new, advanced version of tactics. Force the Russian fleet to close combat on the Japanese and all their HE-type land mines and casemates with scanty angles of fire - everything will start to play sharply against them. Borodintsy radically surpassed the Japanese in close combat, and it was not Borodintsy’s fault that the incompetent admirals were unable to use the capabilities of the ships.
                  2. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 24 February 2021 08: 51
                    0
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Quote: Pilat2009
                    The Russians were preparing to fight at close range, and the stupid Japanese at long range, and you can't change the ammunition in 5 minutes. Both Makarov and Rozhestvensky adhered to outdated tactics.

                    Wrong answer. Tactics become obsolete only when they knowingly lose to a new, advanced version of tactics. Force the Russian fleet to close combat on the Japanese and all their HE-type land mines and casemates with scanty angles of fire - everything will start to play sharply against them. Borodintsy radically surpassed the Japanese in close combat, and it was not Borodintsy’s fault that the incompetent admirals were unable to use the capabilities of the ships.

                    Forgive me, but how do you want to impose close combat? Only 5 ships? After all, after 30 minutes 2 ships were not capable of combat. This is to go to the line with a nose and receive from all trunks. This was discussed and protested a thousand times
                  3. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 24 February 2021 21: 28
                    +1
                    Quote: Pilat2009
                    after 30 minutes, 2 ships were not capable of combat. this is to go to the line with a bow and receive from all trunks

                    Not only to receive but also to distribute, and after 8-10 minutes Borodino would have fired point-blank, and the Japanese would have lost the opportunity to focus fire on the flagships. In fact, the situation is dueling, but the Russians have armor-piercing.
            2. mmaxx
              mmaxx 23 February 2021 06: 30
              +1
              But regarding the small amount of explosives. I only read a book about the first German dreadnoughts. So, it says that the German 280-mm guns had armor-piercing shells just blanks.
              1. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 24 February 2021 08: 59
                0
                Quote: mmaxx
                But regarding the small amount of explosives. I only read a book about the first German dreadnoughts. So, it says that the German 280-mm guns had armor-piercing shells just blanks.

                I don't know what you read, but on December 10 there was an article here about German and Russian naval guns PMV. 280 mm German bb of the first dreadnoughts contained 8 kg of explosives
              2. mmaxx
                mmaxx 24 February 2021 15: 20
                0
                I have to write at least some text. Pictures don't go without it


              3. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 24 February 2021 17: 54
                0
                Quote: mmaxx
                I have to write at least some text. Pictures don't go without it



                https://topwar.ru/177847-rossijskie-i-germanskie-krupnokalibernye-morskie-pushki-jepohi-pervoj-mirovoj-vojny.html

                The German ones for all dreadnought guns, like the Russian ones, were equipped with TNT (which greatly simplifies the comparison of ammunition for us). But, unfortunately, I do not have accurate data on the content of explosives in 279-mm shells. According to some reports, the mass of explosives in an armor-piercing 302 kg projectile reached 8,95 kg. But about high-explosive I know absolutely nothing. The firing range of 279 mm / 45 guns reached 18 m at an elevation angle of 900 °. The first German dreadnoughts of the "Nassau" class and the battle cruiser "Von der Tann" were equipped with such weapons.
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 24 February 2021 18: 18
            0
            Quote: mmaxx
            the German 280-mm guns had armor-piercing shells just blanks.

            This is at 240mm, and at 280 \ 45
            http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-45_skc07.php
          3. mmaxx
            mmaxx 26 February 2021 19: 11
            0
            I, like beeeh, brought the picture. It is written there. Maybe then the Germans invented another BB shell, about which they wrote an article on the topvar. They are still Germans. Cannons / shells are their favorite.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 18 February 2021 18: 03
    +1
    What's wrong with lightweight shells?
    At that time, it was a big step forward!
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 18 February 2021 22: 24
      +2
      Quote: rytik32
      What's wrong with lightweight shells?
      At that time, it was a big step forward!

      It can even be recalled that after the hasty entry of the suitcases after Tsushima, almost all the shells were lightened back in Soviet times. And the ballistics improved dramatically and the weight of the explosives almost did not decrease. In total, you need to use high-quality steel.
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 23 February 2021 06: 32
        +2
        The most interesting thing is that Tsushima passed 2/3 at distances FAVORABLE for Russian lightweight shells
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 23 February 2021 19: 03
          +2
          Exactly so! We started at 35 kbl, which is already acceptable for armor-piercing, and in the tie, when the flagships were knocked out, and up to 15-18 kbl seemed to be getting closer. The problem is the poor configuration of the squadron and the corny poor firing of battleships, especially the first squadron. :(
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 24 February 2021 08: 43
            0
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Exactly so! We started at 35 kbl, which is already acceptable for armor-piercing, and in the tie, when the flagships were knocked out, and up to 15-18 kbl seemed to be getting closer. The problem is the poor configuration of the squadron and the corny poor firing of battleships, especially the first squadron. :(

            Why not get close when there is no one to shoot?
  • unknown
    unknown 18 February 2021 23: 21
    +2
    1. "Heavy" shells, or rather, unnecessarily heavy shells, did not hold the guns.
    Moreover, the guns made using German technology, more advanced than
    English.
    2. "Bismarck" had shells weighing 800 kg. with a caliber of 380 mm guns, and "Prince of Wales" - 720
    kg. with a caliber of 356 mm guns.
    "Baden" had shells weighing 750 kg. with a caliber of 380 mm guns, and British battleships with
    the same caliber of guns - 885 kg.
    Something is not heard crying about lightweight German shells?
    Different concepts: high velocity - light projectile versus low velocity - heavy projectile.
  • Niko
    Niko 17 February 2021 15: 39
    +2
    Andrey, on the whole I share your attitude to Rozhdestvensky, BUT there is still a little bit of Nebogatovsky in his attitude to the matter (getting money all my life and making a career, and in the only case when I have to pay the bills to cry)
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 16: 03
      +8
      So I'm not saying that he is some kind of ideal, everyone has shortcomings, but to the best of his strength and abilities he did a lot. And many of the accusations that are being raised against him are still not deserved.
      1. Niko
        Niko 17 February 2021 16: 09
        +2
        I completely agree with this.
      2. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 16: 33
        +4
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So I'm not saying that he is some kind of ideal, everyone has shortcomings, but to the best of his strength and abilities he did a lot. And many of the accusations that are being raised against him are still not deserved.

        there is one clear criterion - BATTLE
        Rozhdestvensky DEPARTED ROOM
        if according to Makarov there are "a number of bad questions", then there is no doubt that he would have revised them with the receipt of combat experience
        Rozhestvensky has a FULL gamer
      3. unknown
        unknown 18 February 2021 23: 33
        -1
        To the best of your ability?
        I do not agree.
        A fun discipline of astrology ...
        But, there are statistics based on the study of real history, or rather "real".
        The most talented generals are born in the years of the Rooster and the Monkey.
        Not surprisingly, Roosters are realized only in war and in sports, and Monkeys are the most intelligent. Togo-Monkey. Kamimura-Rooster.
        And here, Rozhestvensky and Kuropatkin, are Monkeys. But, unlucky. If no mat, then intellectually underworked.
        And the most productive was Vitgeft. Goat. Any competent astrologer will say that Kozam is not recommended to engage in politics (Gorbachev), commerce and military affairs.
        The failure is unambiguous. No options.
        It is not surprising that Vitgeft died tragically. I did more than I could.
  • unknown
    unknown 18 February 2021 22: 59
    0
    Didn't do what I had to do.
  • 27091965
    27091965 17 February 2021 07: 54
    +6
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    If we take essentially "everyone around, people and iron, are to blame, only I am white and fluffy placed above them."


    We had a chief of staff in our battalion, so he constantly reminded us that the soldier should see the commander in you, leave all your discontent before entering the checkpoint.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 07: 54
    +8
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    For almost six months on the campaign, it was possible at least to bring down the team and teach maneuvers.

    So taught. Even Novikov-Priboy, and even then noted the constant maneuvering exercises
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    At the very least, gain respect and authority from the teams.

    And who said that he did not achieve it? We have a lot of negativity on this matter, in fact, from two sources - Novikov-Priboy, who wrote a social order, and not the real state of affairs, and Vyrubov's letters, but this is one young officer. Despite the fact that always, in any organization there are those who are dissatisfied with their bosses, even if they are close to the ideal. And here - the hardest transition.
    The same Semenov, again, testifies the opposite.
    1. 2534M
      2534M 17 February 2021 09: 19
      -3
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Even Novikov-Priboy, and then noted the constant maneuvering exercises

      there is such a concept - "efficiency bar"
      however, ALL attempts by Zinovy ​​to "portray something" were in fact "leaps far below from this"
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The same Semenov, again, testifies the opposite.

      I would say - LUKAVIT
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 43
        +7
        Quote: 2534M
        however, ALL attempts by Zinovy ​​to "portray something" were in fact "leaps far below from this"

        Well yes. The fact that his head battleships in the first twenty minutes hammered into the Japanese almost as many shells as 1TOE for the entire time of the battle in the ZhM is not an indicator, of course.
        1. DrEng527
          DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 49
          +3
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          almost as many shells as 1TOE for the entire time of the battle in the GM, this is not an indicator, of course.

          however, neither the flagships nor the commanders knew the admiral's plans for battle! request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          That his head armadillos are

          and he commanded not only the Borodino people, but the entire squadron! maneuvered so that detachment 2 was engaged in evading 1 BP instead of shooting ... request and for a snack, he put Oslyabya, a weakly armored and overloaded ship, under the blow of the dead man's flag ..
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 17 February 2021 12: 33
            +2
            Quote: DrEng527
            he put Oslyabya, a weakly armored and overloaded ship, under attack by the flag of the dead.

            And who was it? And "Navarin" and "Sisoy" in this regard are no better.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 17 February 2021 13: 44
              -2
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              And who was it? And "Navarin" and "Sisoy" in this regard are no better.

              trite - there is another flagship-IN1 with a normal, not a dead admiral!
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 17 February 2021 13: 57
                +2
                Quote: DrEng527
                IN1 with a normal, not a dead admiral!

                And this battleship in your opinion is not
                Quote: DrEng527
                weakly armored and overloaded

                ??
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 17 February 2021 14: 38
                  0
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  And this battleship in your opinion is not

                  no - "compound armor": belt on the waterline 2,5 m (102—365 mm); casemate (51-76 mm); casemate traverse (152 mm); tower (254 mm); barbet (254 mm); armored deck (63 mm); conning tower (203 mm) "
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  ??

                  you don't even know that?
                  "Actual normal displacement 14 408 tons, normal according to the project 12 674 tons;"
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 17 February 2021 16: 04
                    +4
                    Let's compare.
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    armor "compound": belt along the waterline 2,5 m (102—365 mm)

                    "Oslyabi" has two belts made of Garvey armor GBP 229-178 and the upper one is 102mm
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    casemate (51-76 mm);

                    Yeah, for 229 mm guns. And "Oslyabi" has the entire SC in 127mm harvey.
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    tower (254 mm)

                    229 but harvey, not steel-iron.
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    The actual normal displacement is 14 408 tons, the normal according to the project is 12 674 tons; "

                    Nikolay has: -designed 8440 tons, actual 9594 tons. That is, the solid belt is a little underwater. Well, where is the real advantage that can dramatically improve the situation?
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    you don't even know that?

                    And you?
                  2. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 17 February 2021 16: 51
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    "Oslyabi" has two belts made of Garvey armor GBP 229-178 and the upper one is 102mm

                    do you need to repeat banal? that due to overload, the main belt was under water, and the 2nd belt is:
                    "Above the main belt, there was an upper belt consisting of 102-mm slabs, closed by broken-shaped traverses at 35-37 and 77-82 frames. It was much shorter than the main belt (about 49 m) and protected the space from about the first chimney to aft casemates of 152-mm guns inclusive. "
                    for understanding - EBR IN1 has a FULL belt ....
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Yeah, for 229 mm guns. And "Oslyabi" has the entire SC in 127mm harvey.

                    Japanese shells did not penetrate 2dm armor ... request
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Well, where is the real advantage that can dramatically improve the situation?

                    corny - the old ship takes over fire on the flagship, and the new one uses its artillery (and Oslyabya is the best shooter) ...
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    And you?

                    Did I ask you something? bully
                  3. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 17 February 2021 18: 51
                    +3
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    do you need to repeat banal? that due to overload the main belt was under water,

                    And “Nikolai” has his “full belt” somewhere else? Above, there is nothing at all.
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    Japanese shells did not penetrate 2dm armor ...

                    Did the "Retvizan" know about this? Just two-inch and hit by a 120mm projectile ...
                  4. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 17 February 2021 22: 11
                    +1
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Did the "Retvizan" know about this? Just two-inch and hit by a 120mm projectile ...

                    one should not confuse shelling from afar and sea battle ... Bayan was not pierced through the upper belt ...
                  5. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 18 February 2021 11: 09
                    0
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    should not be confused with shelling from afar and sea battle

                    The greater the distance, the lower the armor penetration?
                  6. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 36
                    +2
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    The greater the distance, the lower the armor penetration?

                    with instant fuses? bully
                  7. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 18 February 2021 12: 48
                    0
                    Then it is generally not clear what your objection is ...
                    We have a 50mm plate (by no means steel-iron) pierced from a long distance from the weakest medium-caliber gun, while you are firmly convinced that more powerful guns cannot do anything at all.
                    And on the basis of these empirical calculations, based either on the afterthought, or on incomplete information, the ZPR was supposed to separate the detachments somehow fused.
                    Bravo!
                  8. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 18 February 2021 13: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    We have a 50mm plate (by no means steel-iron) punched from a long distance

                    who? Bayan held the upper belt 12dm ...
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    based either on afterthought,

                    those. combat experience 1TOE was not? bully
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    had to separate the detachments somehow floated.

                    fusion is good, but tactical efficiency is more important! 2TOE did not go for a couple, but into battle! Togo has detachments of 6 keels, ZPR has 4, while there is no 3 admiral, and the distance between the detachments is greater than between the matelots ... let me remind you, the COM fought for 2 cabs ...
                  9. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 18 February 2021 14: 00
                    0
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    from whom?

                    At "Retvizan".
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    Bayan held the upper belt 12dm ...

                    Did the Bayan wear the same armor as the Nikolay?
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    2TOE did not go for a couple, but into battle!

                    Sobsno, and I'm talking about it.
        2. DrEng527
          DrEng527 17 February 2021 22: 11
          0
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Above, there is nothing at all.

          re-read his booking
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 12: 52
    +5
    Quote: DrEng527
    however, neither the flagships nor the commanders knew the admiral's plans for battle!

    Why did it happen? Everything in directives and circulars is available.
    Quote: DrEng527
    and he commanded not only the Borodinians, but the entire squadron!

    At the same time, Oslyabya was considered the best shooter.
    Quote: DrEng527
    maneuvered so that the 2nd squad was engaged in evading 1 BP instead of shooting ...

    Bad result, largely dictated by the behavior of the Oslyabi commander. Compare with Japanese - "Togo loop"
    Quote: DrEng527
    and for a snack - he put Oslyabya under the blow of the dead man's flag - a weakly armored and overloaded ship

    And who was it? :)
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 17 February 2021 13: 50
      +2
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Why did it happen? Everything in directives and circulars is available.

      plans for a fight? hi Nebogatov wrote about something else ... probably did not understand the great plans of the ZPR ... request
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      At the same time, Oslyabya was considered the best shooter.

      And which he put to be shot with the admiral's flag! Moreover, at the beginning of the battle, he made me stop the move ... well, that's for the strelba ... hi
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Bad result, largely dictated by the behavior of the Oslyabi commander.

      if not a secret - who gave the order to brake 1BO?
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Compare with Japanese - "Togo loop"

      Didn't Togo arrange her? Or do you think the commander of his flagship?
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And who was it? :)

      a real flagship - he had ONE - Nebogatov on IN1! If the ZPR were a little more reasonable, it would have formed 3 BOs with 2 ships each in Cam Ranh (after connecting with 6TOE) - like Togo! 1 BO: 4 Borodino, Oslyabya and Sisoy - ships with new artillery and a turn of 14 knots, and 2 BO: IN1, Navarin, Nakhimov and 3 BBO - a move of 11 knots.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 07: 33
        +3
        Quote: DrEng527
        plans for a fight? Nebogatov wrote about something else ... probably did not understand the great plans of the ZPR ...

        Nebogatov generally did not understand a lot of things ... More precisely, he pretended not to understand at the trial. But you can't throw out the documents.
        Quote: DrEng527
        And which he put to be shot with the admiral's flag! Moreover, he made me stop the move at the beginning of the battle.

        Quote: DrEng527
        if not a secret - who gave the order to brake 1BO?

        I already wrote about this, but in short, it turned out like this.
        Rozhestvensky seemed to have correctly calculated the maneuver, and the 1st detachment was supposed to go to the head of the 2nd without any braking. However, life, alas, has made its own adjustments. Most likely Borodino and Orel were delayed by increasing the interval, which is why the Oslyabya could not get up in line, moving at the same speed. At the same time, for the commander Oslyabi Ber (and he was considered one of the best commanders of the RIF), all this was quite obvious long before the threat of a collision - when Suvorov was already entering the Oslyabi course, it was obvious that the Oryol would not be able to get into service. Rozhestvensky could not see this - his view of the "Eagle" was blocked by two battleships following him
        So in this situation, any SANE commander of the "Oslyabi" would smoothly reduce the speed in advance, perhaps - he would have made a coordonate to the right, but would have let the "Eagle" go forward, and would have avoided collision and stopping of the battleship. Ber, however, proudly lane forward to the last, and when the collision was already inevitable, he arranged an emergency braking and stood in view of the enemy.
        Thus, there was no signal, Rozhestvensky did not give an order to someone to slow down.
        The death of Oslyabi was not predetermined by braking. Peresvet, who received similar damage, did not go to the bottom and fought well in the WM
        Quote: DrEng527
        Didn't Togo arrange her? Or do you think the commander of his flagship?

        The Togo loop is a forced decision of the Japanese admiral so as not to diverge on a countercourse with the Borodino-type EBR. Togo was preparing to set crossing T, saw that the Russians were marching in two columns, and decided to attack the left, weak one, disperse with it on counter courses and defeat it. He believed that the Russians would not have time to reorganize into a single wake. But thanks to the fact that Rozhestvensky began to advance the 1st armored forward in advance, it took him less time to rebuild, and Togo faced an extremely unpleasant prospect, but noticed it late. The result - having an overwhelming superiority in speed, he brought his forces into battle in an extremely unsuccessful way for the Japanese, twisting his line into a loop under our fire.
        Quote: DrEng527
        a real flagship - he had ONE - Nebogatov on IN1! If the ZPR were a little more reasonable, it would have formed 3 BOs of 2 ships each in Cam Ranh (after connecting with 6TOE) - like Togo!

        It is convenient in computer games - to rearrange ships in formation. In real life, putting ships that are not sailing together is fraught with breaking the line and inglorious death. The 3TOE was completely unfamiliar with the 2TOE, she understood and executed orders poorly, and there was only one chance to keep them in the wake - to leave 2TOE in the tail under the command of her admiral.
        Quote: DrEng527
        1 BO: 4 Borodino, Oslyabya and Sisoy - ships with new artillery and a turn of 14uz

        Sisoy did not have a course of 14 knots.
        1. DrEng527
          DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 15
          +2
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Rozhestvensky seemed to have correctly calculated the maneuver, and the 1st detachment was supposed to go to the head of the 2nd without any braking. However, life, alas, has made its own adjustments.

          and isn't the admiral in command in reality? request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          in person, pretended not to understand at the trial. But you can't throw out the documents.

          documents have a bad property of double interpretation, so normal commanders either arrange a military council, or personally communicate their plans!
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The death of Oslyabi was not predetermined by braking.

          1) you are amusing - you are ready to write off any sins of your idol on others ... let me remind you that Baer did not allow a collision, and the maneuver did not calculate the ZPR request
          2) Stopping Oslyabi had a very bad effect on his ability to shoot, and also contributed to getting hits precisely in the weakly armored bow
          so your conclusion is not accurate - braking created the prerequisites for death, and the shells of the Japanese destroyed it ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Togo loop is a forced decision of the Japanese admiral,

          which speaks of his good reaction, naval training, eye and risk appetite!
          Alas, ZPR did not have these qualities ... his homework looks good only for 15 minutes of the battle - this is great - but then he did not realize it because of the 9uz move.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Bottom line - having an overwhelming speed advantage,

          he had no overwhelming superiority in speed! 1BO could well go 14z with 15 at Togo ... so this is on the conscience of ZPR ...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In real life, putting ships that are not melted together is fraught with breaking the line and inglorious death.

          ZPR had time to swim them - from Cam Ranh! In addition, the formation of the detachment can be made in such a way that Navari and Nakhimov go the rear ... the one who wants is looking for a way ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Sisoy did not have a course of 14 knots.

          13,5 were, however, with 9 knots of the column it does not matter ...
          1. unknown
            unknown 18 February 2021 23: 53
            -2
            Togo's speed is 14 knots.
            "Fuji" did not give more than 15 knots during the RYAV years.
            Likewise, Azuma. Thank you, disgustingly assembled by the French CMU.
            Andrey wrote about the significant operational overload of the Japanese.
            Total, 14 knots.
            However, as you wrote correctly, with 9 bonds it doesn't matter ...
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 19 February 2021 13: 03
            0
            Quote: ignoto
            Togo's speed is 14 knots.

            briefly 15 ... although these are already small bows .. request
        2. rytik32
          rytik32 25 February 2021 00: 37
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          13,5 were

          14,5 according to the testimony of the chief ship engineer
        3. DrEng527
          DrEng527 25 February 2021 11: 51
          0
          Quote: rytik32
          4,5 according to the testimony of the chief ship engineer

          thanks, it stuck in my memory that not an integer ... hi
    2. unknown
      unknown 18 February 2021 23: 49
      0
      Sisoy fit perfectly into the "second" squad. Against the "underdogs" Kamimura.
      As for the speed, the Japanese did not have anything but 16 knots, and 15 knots were not.
      It's time to abandon the completely outdated tradition that the Russians fought on shit, and the Japanese on impeccable technology. I immediately recall the Soviet era, the underestimation of the real characteristics of German technology, and the overestimation of the characteristics of the Soviet. It got to the point that in the tank series of the Tekhnika-Youth magazine they managed to ascribe a 56 mm gun to the Tiger.
      The Japanese were slowed down by "Fuji" and "Azuma", with their real course of 15 knots.
      Add the significant fuel overload you wrote about yourself. 14 knots.
      The rest is from the evil one.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 19 February 2021 13: 04
        0
        Quote: ignoto
        Sisoy fit perfectly into the "second" squad.

        no, the main force is Togo, so it makes sense to concentrate all 6 EBRs with new weapons (12/40 and 10/45) in one squad!
    3. Roman81
      21 February 2021 09: 40
      0
      The maximum for a short time is 14,5, after which the CMU could take off. So 12-13 I think
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 10: 13
        0
        Quote: Roman81
        Maximum for a short time 14,5

        Come on! I remind you of the testimony of the Ozerov commander
        ... The battleship, which gave about 14 maximum knots at an incomplete deepening in Kronstadt on a measured mile

        That is, Sisoy, being underloaded, could not develop 14 bonds even before the campaign, and you propose to him in displacement above normal (ships went into battle between normal and full displacement) and with worn-out vehicles to give 14,5? :)
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 25 February 2021 11: 54
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and with worn-out transition machines give 14,5? :)

        Quote: rytik32
        14,5 according to the testimony of the chief ship engineer

        do you suppose. that your opinion is more important than a direct specialist? request I understand that all the pros are on the Web, but don't go overboard ... repeat
      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 February 2021 12: 11
        +1
        Quote: DrEng527
        do you suppose. that your opinion is more important than a direct specialist?

        Not mine, but the opinion of the ship commander. The difference, in my opinion, is obvious
      4. DrEng527
        DrEng527 25 February 2021 15: 35
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The difference, in my opinion, is obvious

        of course, this is the commander who thoroughly knows the capabilities of the CMU bully
      5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 February 2021 15: 44
        0
        Quote: DrEng527
        of course, this commander thoroughly knows the capabilities of the CMU

        The commander knows how much the ship gave during the tests in KRonstadt. And the commander, unlike the mechanic, is not interested in raising the speed of the course. I recommend reading the testimony of the squadron's flagship mechanic for education. This is where the poem is laughing
      6. DrEng527
        DrEng527 25 February 2021 16: 36
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And the commander, unlike the mechanic, is not interested in raising the speed of the course.

        the commander knows the situation from the mechanic's reports!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I recommend reading the testimony of the squadron's flagship mechanic for education.

        who himself received data from the mechanics ...
        I recommend to understand the concept of the primary source ... hi
      7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 February 2021 07: 09
        +2
        Quote: DrEng527
        the commander knows the situation from the mechanic's reports!

        Sit down, deuce. The commander does not receive information about the speed at the measured mile from the mechanic. I'll tell you more - the mechanic doesn't know the speed of the ship AT ALL. He knows only the number of revolutions of the car and has some idea of ​​what revolutions which speed corresponds to (which is why he can often be wrong). And it’s not mechanics who measure speed on a measured mile.
        Quote: DrEng527
        I recommend to understand the concept of the primary source

        Yes Yes:)
      8. DrEng527
        DrEng527 26 February 2021 12: 12
        -2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Sit down, deuce.

        you are ridiculous in your desire to teach everyone ... bully
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I'll tell you more - the mechanic doesn't know the speed of the ship AT ALL

        sorry for you! above are the official readings of the mechanic, comparing them with your speculations is ridiculous! what was politely told you above! hi however, drag the owl to the globe further - whatever the child is amused ... request
      9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 February 2021 12: 24
        +2
        Quote: DrEng527
        you are ridiculous in your desire to teach everyone ...

        That's right, when there is nothing to cover, we begin to be rude.
        Quote: DrEng527
        sorry for you! above are the official readings of the mechanic, comparing them with your speculations is ridiculous!

        My "speculations" are the testimony of the Investigative Commission of the ship's commander Ozerov
        The battleship, which gave about 14 maximum knots at an incomplete deepening in Kronstadt on a measured mile

        Quote: DrEng527
        what you were politely told above!

        Well, it was also politely explained to you to what extent you are wrong. The fact that you do not want to put up with this is not my problem
  • A_Mazkov
    A_Mazkov 21 February 2021 17: 55
    0
    1. Baer moved with the speed indicated by Rozhestvensky to the 2nd detachment. Moreover, according to witnesses, there was a signal from Oslyaby to keep 8 knots.
    2. Togo himself pointed out that his idea was to make the Russians think so "about the fight on the countercourses."
    3. Rozhestvensky indeed, by the time Togo began to turn his noose, did not have time to line up his squadron.
    4. Packingham wrote that the exact fire of the Russians was unexpected for the Japanese. So Togo may have just underestimated the risk. However, it was the Japanese who, twisting the noose, "cut" Oslyabya.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 23 February 2021 06: 38
    0
    If we compare Borodino and Oslyabya, then Borodino is just poorly armored.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 23 February 2021 19: 05
      0
      Well, it's just gon .. It's much better than the Japanese at least. And to compare with Peresveti is ridiculous.
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 11: 54
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    this is not an indicator, of course.

    no, not an indicator
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 12: 50
      +4
      Well, if accuracy in battle is no longer an indicator, then present your indicators.
      1. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 12: 55
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        then provide your metrics.

        combat effectiveness
        battle results (battles)
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 17 February 2021 13: 51
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        then provide your metrics.

        the best option in 2TOE is to dodge the fight altogether! There were all possibilities for this!
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 07: 34
          +4
          Quote: DrEng527
          the best option in 2TOE is to dodge the fight altogether! There were all possibilities for this!

          I'm even afraid to ask what wassat
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 19
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I'm even afraid to ask what

            It is banal - a demonstration near Sangarsky 13 in the evening with empty TRs with VSKR and armored frigates with shooting at observation posts and antennas, Togo breaks down to this strait, and the ZPR passes freely on the night of 14 or 15 ... hi By the way, when passing the strait at night, you can arrange a demonstration for the MN ... bully
            1. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 18 February 2021 12: 44
              0
              Quote: DrEng527
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I'm even afraid to ask what

              It is banal - a demonstration near Sangarsky 13 in the evening with empty TRs with VSKR and armored frigates with shooting at observation posts and antennas, Togo breaks down to this strait, and the ZPR passes freely on the night of 14 or 15 ... hi By the way, when passing the strait at night, you can arrange a demonstration for the MN ... bully

              He didn’t have to go anywhere. He had a carriage time due to the fact that his bases allowed him to intercept any route. And reconnaissance was carried out in all directions. And he went to the Rozhdestvensky Strait during the day so as not to get involved with the destroyers
            2. DrEng527
              DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 47
              0
              Quote: Pilat2009
              That didn't have to get lost anywhere

              Seriously? I wonder why then Togo gave the order to go to the north in a day? bully
              Quote: Pilat2009
              then its bases allowed to intercept any route.

              the question is where! if Togo is in Mozampo, then when 2TOE passes through Sangarsky, its interception is possible only from Vladik ... hi
              Quote: Pilat2009
              so as not to mess with the destroyers

              1) In Sangarsk, 2/3 MN simply disappear
              2) It is impossible to find a darkened squadron at night without knowing its course and time without radars ... hi
            3. unknown
              unknown 19 February 2021 00: 01
              0
              I went in the afternoon, because Apraksin, with its "problems" with the car, tore off the night passage.
              What prevented Rozhestvensky from correctly setting the task?
              A simple passage, or rather a "climb" to Vladivostok, would not have given anything. There is no base for that many ships.
              So it's a fight.
              Accordingly, the transports bypass.
              Complete unloading of ships to increase travel speed.
              Daytime fight.
              Then, the night fight.
              Active reconnaissance before battle to identify enemy forces and combat formation in advance, and not end-to-end.
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 13: 13
            +1
            Quote: DrEng527
            it is corny - a demonstration at Sangarsky 13 in the evening with empty TRs with VSKR and armored frigates with shooting at observation posts and antennas, Togo breaks down to this strait, and the ZPR passes freely on the night of 14 or 15

            And first he gets a night full of destroyers, and then, in the morning - a battle with the main forces of Togo. Great result!
          3. unknown
            unknown 19 February 2021 00: 12
            +2
            Port Arthur squadron fought back after the Yellow Sea.
            What is unreal here?
            At a comparable speed, the Japanese could not knock out the lead ships with concentrated fire.
            Less damage. And the Japanese have the same. Main caliber guns for consumption.
            There are no transports. Cruisers and destroyers are reserved for night combat.
            In the morning, most of the squadron is intact.
            There will be no battle with the main forces of Togo in the morning.
            The Japanese cannot replace the main battery guns overnight.
            But, even this is not the main thing.
            There is such a curious discipline.
            Psycholinguistics.
            Examines the relationship between language and thinking.
            Based on the study of the WWII experience, the Americans came to the conclusion that the Japanese language is completely unsuitable for war.
            The Japanese acted well according to a pre-developed plan.
            Any step to the side is confusion. Complete. Loss of pace. Renouncement.
            Inability to multitask. Complete.
            In the morning, making sure of the failure of their plans. That would have left.
            Without options.
            Options only if fought not with the Japanese. With the British.
          4. DrEng527
            DrEng527 26 February 2021 12: 23
            0
            Quote: ignoto
            What is unreal here?

            only a desire to prove the infallibility of the ZPR ... request
        2. DrEng527
          DrEng527 26 February 2021 12: 21
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And at first he gets a night full of destroyers,

          an attack on an intact, organized and trained to repel MN attacks? Experience has shown that this is an extremely difficult matter! bully In addition, then there were no radars and finding the darkened squadron is not easy! request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          in the morning - a battle with the main forces of Togo.

          1) If Togo does not run away to the Sangar Strait! And this is very likely.
          2) At the same time, Togo will be forced to catch up with 2 TOE and the battle will be on the catch-up - see phase 2 of the Shatung, and 2 TOE fired better ...
          3) More bonuses - 2TOE spend part of the coal, the belts will float, well, the battle will be closer to Vladik ...
          4) Finally - you can go not directly to Vladik, but for example to the north, to Olga ... let the Japanese seek, spend the coal ... war is a way of deception, not a giveaway game ... The diamond quietly leaked out ...
        3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 26 February 2021 12: 37
          +1
          Quote: DrEng527
          an attack on an intact, organized and trained to repel MN attacks? Experience has shown that this is an extremely difficult matter!

          Really? :)))) And where did experience show this? :)
          In fact, experience has shown that it is possible to evade destroyer attacks by going at a relatively high speed alone or in small detachments of ships, and without opening fire on destroyers, as there will be a de-disguise. Which of this applies to 2 and 3TOE?
          Quote: DrEng527
          If Togo does not run away to the Sangar Strait! And this is very likely.

          He will not run far, he will return as soon as reports appear that the main forces of the Russians have entered the strait.
          Quote: DrEng527
          At the same time, Togo will be forced to catch up with 2 TOE and the battle will be on the catch-up - see phase 2 of the Shatung, and 2 TOE fired better ...

          Explore the globe for a change. What are the "catch-up"? The squadron is easily intercepted on the way to Vladivostok
          Quote: DrEng527
          Another bonus - 2TOE to spend part of the coal, the belts will float, well, the battle will be closer to Vladik ...

          Some of the ships will be damaged in battles (up to fatal), the crews will be exhausted by night waking, the stokers will be tired ...
          Quote: DrEng527
          Finally - you can go not directly to Vladik, but for example to the north, to Olga

          Yes, you will not go anywhere. Togo, leaving for Sangarsky, was not at all going to leave the Tsushima Strait unattended. The battle will take place in the best case for us in the middle of the road to Vladivostok, but rather at the exit from the Korean one.
          Quote: DrEng527
          let the Japanese seek, waste the coal ... war is a way of deception, not a giveaway game.

          They don't have to look for anything. After detecting 2 and 3TOEs, light and auxiliary cruisers will hang on them, and you will not do anything to them. Will control movements and convey Togo
        4. DrEng527
          DrEng527 26 February 2021 13: 35
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And where did experience show this? :)

          see the departure of 1TOE in PA after Shatung, i.e. with damage.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Which of these applies to 2 and 3TOEs?

          at least a disguise! as well as a demonstration to distract the enemy - for example, a VSKR detachment in another part of the strait ... there are many options - you just have to think ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          He will not run far, he will return as soon as reports appear that the main forces of the Russians have entered the strait.

          Then there were no radars, no aviation, no normal radio communication ... until they find out, until they report - time will pass ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The squadron is easily intercepted on the way to Vladivostok

          if the course is known, and if not? bully if it's not a secret - how can Togo overtake 2TOE, leaving for Sangarsky? bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Some of the ships will be damaged in battles (up to fatal), the crews will be exhausted by night waking, the stokers will be tired ...

          the funniest thing is that you consider facts only for one side - and Togo's race will not tire his stokers? bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Togo, leaving for Sangarsky, was not at all going to leave the Tsushima Strait unattended.

          A great opportunity to destroy some of the Japanese forces ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          rather, at the exit from the Korean.

          there is such a science - geography - take a map and plot the route of Togo to the Sangar Strait and back to the interception point, having an afterthought! Calculate the cost of coal for a long stroke for interception - you will get amazing results, especially if 2 TOE will force the straits not by 9uz and without TR ... wink
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and you will not do anything to them.

          Seriously? VSKR are not drowned by a detachment of Oleg, Aurora and pebbles? bully I will note that we are not commanded by the same ZPR that in real life, but a little more active ...
          but about the separation of the BKR from the United Fleet - you are in vain, Togo was not stupid, and he had few high-speed ones ... request
        5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 February 2021 11: 10
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          see the departure of 1TOE in PA after Shatung, i.e. with damage.

          Uh-huh. This is when Poltava received a torpedo in the side (thank God it did not explode), and Pobeda lost its main battery gun due to a 57-mm projectile hitting the bore. And the teams were on duty all night at the guns.
          Quote: DrEng527
          at least a disguise! as well as a demonstration to distract the enemy - for example, a VSKR detachment in another part of the strait ... there are many options - you just have to think ...

          Well, when you think of something sensible - let me know.
          Point 1 - the Russian squadron could not pass the strait unnoticed - there were several (EMNIP - 4) watch lines.
          Paragraph 2 - No "VSKR detachment" will make any distraction - they will see it, identify it, well, maybe they will send armored cruisers for elimination. And they will continue to follow anyway.
          Point 3 - after finding the squadron, the scouts will "hang" on it and will report on its every step
          Quote: DrEng527
          Then there were no radars, no aviation, no normal radio communication ... until they find out, until they report - time will pass ...

          :))))) Ask at your leisure when 2TOE was discovered, and when Togo learned about it
          Quote: DrEng527
          if the course is known, and if not?

          And the course and location of the squadron are known for sure - from the scouts.
          Quote: DrEng527
          if it's not a secret - how can Togo overtake 2TOE, leaving for Sangarsky?

          Globus, as I understand it, has banned you.
          Togo expected to meet the Russians at certain numbers - based on when they left their last parking lot, as the British reported to him. If I had not waited for them, I would have gone to Sangarsky. But he would have gone calmly and without haste (it made no sense for him to run, the Russians would still bypass Japan much further, + time is needed for additional bunkering). If at this time the Russians are found in Koreysk, he returns half way. There are no problems at all.
          Quote: DrEng527
          there is such a science - geography - take a map and plot the route of Togo to the Sangar Strait and back to the interception point, having an afterthought! Calculate the cost of coal for a long stroke for interception - you will get amazing results, especially if 2 TOE will force the straits not by 9z and without TR.

          Let's start with the fact that such calculations show that your option does not have the right to life at all, since Rozhdestvensky simply does not have coal in order to wait for the VKR to sabotage in the Sangar Strait, and then wait for the Japanese fleet to go there. wassat On this, in fact, the excursion could have ended.
          Let's say that Togo left at 12.00 on May 13 to Sangarsky as planned. And let's say that Rozhdestvensky stayed for a day, and entered the strait on the night of May 15. In a day and a half, the Japanese at the time of the discovery of the Russians will be abeam the Noto Peninsula (Polutov has a real, prescribed plan for the movement of the Japanese fleet), that is, roughly 260 miles from the exit from the Korean. Just something.
          Quote: DrEng527
          the funniest thing is that you consider facts only for one side - and Togo's race will not tire his stokers?

          I will reveal a military secret - it is not the speed of movement that tires the stokers. The firemen are tired of the consumption of coal. When you estimate how much coal should have been transferred to Russian stokers and how much to Japanese, you will understand (hint - Japanese battleships were much more economical)
          Quote: DrEng527
          A great opportunity to destroy some of the Japanese forces ...

          laughing M-dya ... do you at least understand that in order not to destroy, but at least to reach the effective firing range (25 cables) to the 17-knot auxiliary cruiser, following the squadron from a distance of 7 miles, the Russians cruisers will need more than 2 hours? And yet they will have to retire from the squadron more than 40 miles, going at full speed? And Rozhestvensky does not know whether the main forces of the Japanese are waiting for him or have gone to Sangarsky.
          Moreover. No one prevents the Japanese from marching with the forces of the same 5th combat 10 miles from the Russian forces, and then the patrols of the VSKR will always be able to retreat to him. But Oleg and Aurora will have to retreat - they cannot fight with such forces.
          In short. There is no way to destroy at least part of the Yap forces here and there will not be.
          Quote: DrEng527
          VSKR are not drowned by a detachment of Oleg, Aurora and pebbles? bully I would like to note that we are in command not by the same ZPR that in real life, but a little more active ...

          They are not heated. This is a fact, and no of your emoticons, alas, will change this. yes
        6. DrEng527
          DrEng527 27 February 2021 14: 47
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          then when Poltava received a torpedo in the side (thank God it did not explode), and Pobeda lost its main battery gun due to a 57-mm projectile hitting the bore. AND

          You forgot that the Japanese KNEW the location of our EBRs, which were damaged by the day's battle! As for 57mm, it's just a coincidence ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Point 1 - the Russian squadron could not pass the strait unnoticed - there were several (EMNIP - 4) watch lines.
          Paragraph 2 - No "VSKR detachment" will make any distraction - they will see it, identify it, well, maybe they will send armored cruisers for elimination. And they will continue to follow anyway.
          Point 3 - after finding the squadron, the scouts will "hang" on it and will report on its every step

          1) even in reality it was spotted by the 3rd line ... well, they spotted it - while the message was being transmitted, while the MN was taken out ... the night is dark.
          2) If it's not a secret - where will the Sangarsky's BKR come from? bully By the way, you have a bad imagination - VSKR should come up to the sunset, fire at posts, go through the strait from the TR - who will understand what at night ... bully
          3) What is the move of these scouts? will they run away from Oleg with K? wink
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well, when you think of something sensible - let me know.

          everything has already been invented! and at the scientific forum I spent 2TOE at night through the straits ... hi
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Globus, as I understand it, has banned you.

          do you understand yourself? bully or a layman in geography?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          When they left their last parking lot, the British reported to him.

          1) you forgot about the TRs released to Shanghai.
          2) ZPR could not have predicted this? and then a banal calculation of the arrival of the demonstration detachment to the Sangarsky, and 2TOE to the Tsusismsky Strait ..
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Russians do not care much further bypassing Japan

          look at the map - there are no rails on the sea - the Russians could just go straight to Sangarsky ...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          returns half way. There are no problems at all.

          just for you - if you try to estimate the timing, then Togo will go straight to Vladik ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          as Rozhdestvensky simply does not have coal in order to wait

          you are mistaken - this is a question for 2 days ... coal for it was ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          that is, roughly 260 miles from the Korean exit. Just something.

          260 miles is almost a day of 11 knots - or do you think Togo has the ability to fly and has so much coal? Which should still be enough for a fight and a return to the base - walking to Gensan. And to these miles it is necessary to add the time of passing the report, making a decision, etc. And this is a watch.
          bully It is clear, having received the dispatch, he will most likely go straight to Vladik, but 2TOE gets an advantage of 100 miles, which will not be won back with a 2 knot difference (ours 10z, Japanese 12) until Vladik ... So in the best scenario for the Japanese a battle in the vicinity of Vladik, which is not so bad for 2TOE ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I will reveal a military secret - it is not the speed of movement that tires the stokers. The firemen are tired of the consumption of coal.

          how can I tell you, without leaving the rules of the forum ... hi travel speed cubically depends on the power of the CMU - chew further? bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And at the same time they will have to move more than 40 miles from the squadron,

          what for? the visibility range is noticeably less, it is enough to drive away the scatterers, and the VSKR has no armor, any hit can be fatal ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          This is a fact, and no of your emoticons, alas, will change this.

          1) This is not a fact, but a hypothesis
          2) Is this how you react to emoticons? bully
        7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 28 February 2021 16: 42
          +2
          Quote: DrEng527
          Did you forget that the Japanese KNEW the location of our EBRs, which were damaged by the day's battle

          I haven't forgotten anything. In Tsushima, the Russians will be attacked in the same way, and the absence of damage to destroyers is not a hindrance.
          Quote: DrEng527
          even in reality it was spotted by the 3rd line ... well, they spotted it - while the message was being transmitted, while the MN was brought out ... the night is dark.

          Kindergarten. Found at night, in the afternoon took under observation, by sunset they brought in destroyers.
          Quote: DrEng527
          If it's not a secret - where will the Sangarsky's BKR come from? bully By the way, you have a bad imagination - VSKR should come up to the sunset, fire at posts, go through the strait from the TR - who will understand what at night ...

          I, unlike you, have a good memory. You wrote
          Quote: DrEng527
          as well as a demonstration to distract the enemy - for example, a VSKR detachment in another part of the strait ...

          What I wrote about. What does Sangarsky have to do with it?
          Quote: DrEng527
          VSKR should come up at sunset, fire on posts, pass the strait from the TR - who will understand what at night ...

          You have already been told about this, but it never came to you. The situation you fantasize is IMPOSSIBLE.
          That does not care about any demonstrations. He counted the time from the exit of 2TOE from the last stop. He had a map, a ruler, and a compass, and he knew the approximate time of the approach of 2TOE to Korean. If at the indicated time the squadron did not appear at Koreysky, it means that it went around Japan and you need to go to Sangarsky.
          That, unlike you, understood that the Russian squadron, leaving Cam Ranh, could not hang out in the sea indefinitely, waiting for a convenient moment - she would not have enough coal for this. Moreover, the places there are quite "crowded", and hanging out in the sea just like that is fraught with the British steamers, and the Japanese will quickly know the position of the squadron.
          There was no point in sending the VSKR in advance either - Togo was interested in the movement of the main forces.
          And your fantasy, how 2TOE dangles in the sea, feeding the stokers with prayers to the Holy Spirit, and at this time the VSKR with transports (!!!) go around Japan .. You are not even able to understand what if 2TOE could afford for a week to blab out on the road to Tsushima, then Sangarsky does not need any VSKR at all - Togo would have gone there anyway.
          Quote: DrEng527
          What is the move of these scouts? will they run away from Oleg with K?

          It was already written to you in Russian - yes, they will run away. And explained how.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Do you at least understand that in order not to destroy, but at least to reach the effective firing range (25 cables) to the 17-knot auxiliary cruiser, tracking the squadron from a distance of 7 miles, Russian cruisers will need more than 2 hours? And yet they will have to retire from the squadron more than 40 miles, going at full speed? And Rozhestvensky does not know whether the main forces of the Japanese are waiting for him or have gone to Sangarsky.
          Moreover. No one prevents the Japanese from marching with the forces of the same 5th combat 10 miles from the Russian forces, and then the patrols of the VSKR will always be able to retreat to him. But Oleg and Aurora will have to retreat - they cannot fight with such forces.

          Are you unable to comprehend a simple text of two paragraphs?
          Quote: DrEng527
          and at the scientific forum I spent 2TOE at night through the straits ...

          Well, the "scientific" forum is not the sea
          Quote: DrEng527
          1) you forgot about the TRs released to Shanghai.

          I have not forgotten. You - did not understand any of this. I'm even afraid to ask why you blurted out about Shanghai.
          Quote: DrEng527
          ZPR couldn’t have foreseen this? and then a banal calculation of the arrival of a demonstration detachment to the Sangarsky, and 2TOE to the Tsusismsky Strait ..

          Well, yes, the concentrated Holy Spirit enters the stoker.
          Quote: DrEng527
          just for you - if you try to estimate the timing, then Togo will go straight to Vladik ...

          I ALREADY appreciated it for you - Togo is 260 miles from the exit from the Korean language, the Russians will telepath at least another 100 miles on it, but rather more.
          Quote: DrEng527
          you are mistaken - this is a question for 2 days ... coal for it was ...

          laughing Hmmm ... Listen, member of the "scientific" forum. You SERIOUSLY set aside two days for the VKR with transports (!!) to approach Sangarsky around Japan? !! :)))) And this person tells me about timing ...
          Quote: DrEng527
          260 miles is almost a day of 11 knots - or do you think Togo has the ability to fly and has so much coal?

          That is, you do not know that the Japanese were calmly cruising at 15 knots, or that by the time of the possible transition to Sangarskoye their ships were overloaded with coal, having it already on deck?
          Did you try to teach materiel?
          Quote: DrEng527
          It is clear, having received the dispatch, he will most likely go directly to Vladik, but 2TOE gets an advantage of 100 miles, which will not be able to win back with a 2 knot difference (ours 10z, Japanese 12) until Vladik ...

          Only in your limitless fantasies.
          Quote: DrEng527
          how can I tell you, without leaving the rules of the forum ... hi speed cubically depends on the power of the CMU - then chew?

          Some people chew better than talk, that's for sure. No, well, I'm glad, of course, that you are at least a little at odds with the school physics course, but ... Try again to re-read what you have written
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          When you estimate how much coal should have been transferred to Russian stokers and how much to Japanese, you will understand (hint - Japanese battleships were much more economical)

          And if they don’t understand even now, then I explain - there is such a thing - efficiency, and it was much lower for our CMU than for the Japanese. Accordingly, the Japanese could walk at higher speeds, while spending as much coal as ours.
          Quote: DrEng527
          what for? the visibility range is noticeably less, it is enough to drive away the splitters

          Less than what is your visibility range? :)))
          As already explained above, you are tortured to drive away. The Japanese have a lot of scouts capable of escorting 2TOEs and at least 2 cruising squads to cover them. And you, in your unbridled imagination, managed to disperse them all with Oleg and 2 pebbles in your hands, which could not fight on equal terms with any cruising squad.
          Quote: DrEng527
          and the VSKR has no armor, any hit can be fatal ...

          I fully admit that one VSKR will be able to be put out of action. Alas, there will be no sense in this.
          Quote: DrEng527
          This is not a fact, but a hypothesis

          This is not a hypothesis, it is a fact. Which one you are trying to "refute" by making round eyes: "KAAAak is Oleg and K won't drive away the VSKR? !! Yes, this cannot be!" :)))))
          Quote: DrEng527
          Is this how you react to emoticons?

          You see, I have been discussing these topics for several years now. And for a long time I have been observing a sad tradition - the rate of increase in the amount of delirium in the comments of my opponents is directly proportional to the number of emoticons they use ... If you are able to understand what I mean laughing
          I have nothing against smiles :)))))))
        8. DrEng527
          DrEng527 1 March 2021 13: 09
          -1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I haven't forgotten anything. In Tsushima, the Russians will be attacked in the same way, and the absence of damage to destroyers is not a hindrance.

          You are mistaken - the absence of damage to the EBR means massive fire on the attacking MN!
          More importantly, the MN will not be able to concentrate, as after the fight in the GM for a banal reason - they will have a shortage of time.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Kindergarten. Found at night, in the afternoon took under observation, by sunset they brought in destroyers.

          This is in theory, but in the vile reality the sea is large, but, like us with von Clausewitz - "but fighting is difficult!" Your admiration for the Japanese is not healthy ... hi Well, and most importantly - leaving Togo will take EM, and MN will remain in the straits.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          What I wrote about. What does Sangarsky have to do with it?

          It means that you did not understand the essence - several demonstrations can be arranged, namely: 1) to distract Togo to the Sangar Strait, 2) at night to arrange a bait for the MP in Tsushima ... There are no radars ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The situation you fantasize is IMPOSSIBLE.

          just for you, tk. you took up a strange occupation - the construction of the ZPR on Olympus ... bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          He counted the time from the exit of 2TOE from the last stop. He had a map, a ruler, and a compass, and he knew the approximate time of the 2TOE approach to the Korean one. If at the indicated time the squadron did not appear at Koreysky, it means that it went around Japan and you need to go to Sangarsky.

          the funny thing is that understanding this you are trying to argue with me! The demonstration is organized with this in mind! Why, in reality, Togo got nervous - yes, the ZPR arranged a delay in the movement of the squadron for maneuvering! And if he had lingered for another day - Togo would have rushed to another strait ... And it is to stimulate Togo there at the estimated time (exactly according to the calculations of Togo himself!) In the evening a demonstration should appear ... it seems banal, but it is so difficult to convey it to you ... request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And your fantasy, how 2TOE dangles in the sea, feeding the stokers with prayers to the Holy Spirit, and at this time the VSKR with transports (!!!) go around Japan ..

          1) what's wrong with that? fuel consumption by 6-7 knots is small.
          2) I would also send armored frigates there - let them make some noise on the shipping lanes near Tokyo! In battle, there is little sense from them, but returning from the strait to the ocean, they would well have raised the rates for freight ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Are you unable to comprehend a simple text of two paragraphs?

          take this question to yourself! As soon as the Japanese lose visual contact with TOE, she can change course ... and Oleg go to the appointed rendezvous point, breaking away from the scouts with the advantage of a move ....
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well, the "scientific" forum is not the sea

          Playing with intermediaries is a perfectly reasonable way to test a hypothesis ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I'm even afraid to ask why you blurted out about Shanghai.

          internal rudeness is an indicator of your culture and upbringing, no more ... and sending TR to Shanghai gave a timestamp of the 2TOE location for the Japanese ...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You SERIOUSLY allocated as many as two days in order for the VKR with transports

          I give the difference in the movement of 2TOE and the demonstration squad! The latter should arrange a demonstration at Sangarsky 2 days before 2TOE approaches Tsushima! Let me tell you an amazing thing - 2TOE and the demonstration squad can move at different speeds ... bully


          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          that the Japanese were calmly cruising at 15 knots,

          urging others to learn materiel you yourself do not know the banal - I recommend remembering the famous race of the Russian EBR and the average speed at the same time! you are ridiculous in your ignorance - to confuse a squadron move for several hours in battle and a long move of the same squadron ...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And if they don’t understand even now, then I explain - there is such a thing - efficiency, and it was much lower for our CMU than for the Japanese. Accordingly, the Japanese could walk at higher speeds, while spending as much coal as ours.

          Your ignorance is akin to your aplomb to write deliberate nonsense ... bully
          chew, since you don't understand:
          1) The difference in the efficiency of the CMU of our and Japanese EBRs is a few%, well, in the limit of 15%.
          2) We take a cube. the root of 1.15 is roughly 1,05, i.e. the Japanese, due to the efficiency, can have a stroke 5% higher, i.e. instead of 10 knots, have 10,5 knots ...
          3) But at a speed of even 14 knots, compared to 10 knots, the Russian fuel consumption increases by 2,75 times, and this is assuming the equality of the coal quality and the linearity of the CMU efficiency at 10 and 14 knots - which is obviously disputable ... By this you are convinced that the Japanese stoker will get tired less than the Russians ... laughing
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Alas, there will be no sense in this.

          if you find out how much the Japanese had in real life and how they were involved in patrols, you will understand that this is fatal ...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          This is not a hypothesis, it is a fact.

          I will reveal to you a terrible secret - you cannot replay history, so any of our conjectures about RYAV are hypotheses, nothing more!
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          If you are able to understand what I mean

          why - I understand, emoticons strain you ... hi
        9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 March 2021 16: 45
          0
          I read it and laughed. I am answering you for the last time - I do not see any sense in further wasting my time on answering you.
          Quote: DrEng527
          You are mistaken - the absence of damage to the EBR means massive fire on the attacking MN!

          And the death of half the squadron. They protect themselves from destroyers at night not by artillery fire, but by fast speed and maneuver. If you take the trouble to study the actions of the 1TOE after the battle in the LM, you will see that the detection range of destroyers at sea, oddly enough, exceeded the range of a torpedo shot - it is reliably known that on the night of July 28-29 the destroyers were visible by 5-6 cables. Accordingly, Russian ships, seeing destroyers striving to get closer to them, simply turned away from them, opening fire - very often in such situations, Japanese destroyers "to clear their conscience" shot after them, with practically no chance of hitting the target, and left the attack. In addition, the flashes of torpedo shots (powder charges were used to eject torpedoes from the vehicles) were clearly visible, and due to the phosphoricity of the water, traces of mines were clearly visible, as a result of which Russian ships had a good opportunity to evade torpedoes fired at them. Often, fire from our ships did not open at all
          In Tsushima, evasive maneuvers will not help - "tossing over" the entire squadron will not work quickly anyway, the detection range of destroyers will be less, as well as the chances of damaging the destroyer before it makes a torpedo shot will be much less.
          As a result, if our squadron goes together and tries to repel the attacks of destroyers with dagger fire, all the destroyer detachments will hang on it - it will unmask itself, and it will not work to dodge by the maneuver due to the bulkiness of the formation (many ships, in the LM maximum 4 ships went together). Total - one or two wounded (or sunk) ships at least, and the next morning the squadron has yet to gather, since energetic maneuvers will lead to the fact that it will break up into detachments.
          Quote: DrEng527
          More importantly, the MN will not be able to concentrate, as after the fight in the GM for a banal reason - they will have a shortage of time.

          Is the minimum daylight hours a shortage of time? And he, this daylight, they WILL have.
          Quote: DrEng527
          This is in theory, but in the vile reality the sea is large, but, like us with von Clausewitz - "but fighting is difficult!" Your admiration for the Japanese is not healthy ...

          Yes, yes, when the arguments end, such a torrent begins. Will there be any objections on the merits of the issue?
          Quote: DrEng527
          Well, and most importantly - leaving Togo will take EM, and MN will remain in the straits.

          Which the Japanese have to the point of great - and much more than was used in battle in the GM.
          Quote: DrEng527
          It means that you did not understand the essence - several demonstrations can be arranged, namely: 1) to distract Togo to the Sangar Strait, 2) at night to arrange a bait for the MP in Tsushima ... There are no radars ...

          I understand that it is very difficult to make sure that your fantasies are illusory. But this is not a reason to ignore the opponent's argumentation. They explained to you in Russian why the Japanese will establish contact with 2TOE and will keep it all the next day. I never heard any arguments against you, only "oh, you are in awe of the Japanese" and so on.
          You can have as many demonstrations as you like. The bottom line is that on the night of detection, no one will send the MN into an attack - the Japanese DIDN'T DO this. They did something different - they waited for the morning, established the composition of the enemy detachment and only then made a decision on how to proceed. They did not try to attack with destroyers 2 and 3 TOE on the night of detection. In general, if your demonstration squad is lucky, it will be able to leave the Korea Strait. If not, he will die in battle with the 5th combat unit the next day. And that's all. And I already wrote about the demonstration in Sangarsky - it is not needed at all for anything.
        10. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 March 2021 16: 46
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          just for you, tk. you took up a strange occupation - the construction of the ZPR on Olympus ...

          "Weighty" argument.
          Quote: DrEng527
          The demonstration is organized with this in mind! Why, in reality, Togo got nervous - yes, the ZPR arranged a delay in the movement of the squadron for maneuvering! And if he had lingered for another day - Togo would have rushed to another strait ... And it is to stimulate Togo there at the estimated time (exactly according to the calculations of Togo himself!) In the evening a demonstration should appear ... it seems banal, but it is so difficult to convey it to you ...

          M-dya. Okay, I already understood that you need to show everything on your fingers, like a small child.
          On May 1, 2TOE departs from the shores of Indochina. H. Togo awaits the Russians by May 12 in Korean.
          On May 13, Togo was going to go to Sangarsky, but did not leave - he decided to wait. If the Russian squadron had been delayed on the way, then it would most likely have gone to Sangarsky on 14, well, maybe 15 May. Actually, he was delayed because Rozhestvensky sent part of the TR to China and it became known that they had appeared there.
          Let's say Rozhdestvensky does not send transports to Shanghai, but sends them to Sangarsky, according to your advice.
          So, 2 and 3TOE left on May 1, went roughly 8-9 knots, with the maximum speed that the transports allowed to develop, but at the same time reached the entrance to the Korea Strait on the night of May 14. Sometimes the squadron passed less (average daily speed up to 5,5 knots), but this is the "merit" of the currents that impeded the movement, that is, the ships burned coal at their 8 knots, but because of the current it turned out less.
          In total, we have a conclusion as simple as a hum. If Rozhestvensky had sent the VSKR with transports to Sangarsky, on your "wonderful" recommendation, then this detachment would have left for Japan just on the night of May 14. But here's the problem - now they would have to go almost 1950 km along Japan, in order to reach the Sangar Strait
          In order to reach it, following at a speed of 9 knots, a detachment of VKR and TR takes ALMOST 5 (FIVE) DAYS! FIVE DAYS, CARL!
          That is, in the best case, the VSKR and TR would have been near the Sangar Strait on the evening of May 18. But here's the problem - even if Togo had gone to Sangarsky on May 15, and not earlier, then his main forces would have been at the strait on the evening of May 17.
          So, if Rozhestvensky had been delayed for these very 5 days, and Togo had come out at the most inexplicably late date, he would have come to Sangarsky a day earlier than the demonstration you had conceived. Tell what would happen next, or guess yourself? Not a single one of our VSKR and not a single TR would have left there - everyone would have stayed there.
          And you would write today how stupid this Rozhdestvensky was, that he sent the VSKR and TR to certain destruction and the MAIN THING - to no avail.
          Now attention, a question. Could Rozhestvensky have spilled these extra 5 days at sea? You, of course, everything is simple
          Quote: DrEng527
          1) what's wrong with that? fuel consumption by 6-7 knots is small.

          The answer is actually very simple. Having loaded with coal to the very top in Indochina, 2TOE was forced to take coal TWICE when passing to the Korea Strait, but came there with a supply that should have been enough for a battle and subsequent passage to Vladivostok (taking into account damage, of course) - no more. Where to get this coal? In theory - from transports and VSKR, they still had quite a lot of it ...
          Oh, yes, I completely forgot - you sent them to distract the attention of the Japanese :)))))))
        11. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 March 2021 16: 46
          +1
          Quote: DrEng527
          take this question to yourself! As soon as the Japanese lose visual contact with TOE, she can change course ... and Oleg go to the appointed rendezvous point, breaking away from the scouts with the advantage of a move ....

          What. Per. Rave?!! What else is the loss of eye contact? Have you read anything about RYAV?
          As soon as the Japanese discovered the Russian squadron at sea, both 1TOE and 2TOE, MASS of scouts went there. The exit of the 1TOE was accompanied by several detachments of cruisers, and the same thing happened with the 2TOE - the 5th squadron, and the dogs and so on, quickly pulled up to it.
          Well, as I understand it, in your universe, the Japanese were struck by senile dementia, and they send to keep track of 2TOE 1-2 VSKR? :)))))) For God's sake, go to the alternatives history (however, such a fantasy will not be appreciated there either), but Why are you spreading your verses like this as a real alternative to the events that took place?
          Quote: DrEng527
          Playing with intermediaries is a perfectly reasonable way to test a hypothesis ...

          Taking into account the fact that your intermediaries have admitted obviously impossible preconditions for the game, its value is negative.
          Quote: DrEng527
          internal rudeness is an indicator of your culture and upbringing

          It is a pity, but my stock of beads is not endless.
          Quote: DrEng527
          I give the difference in the movement of 2TOE and the demonstration squad! The latter must, 2 days before the approach of 2TOE to Tsushima, arrange a demonstration at Sangarsky! Let me tell you an amazing thing - 2TOE and the demonstration squad can move at different speeds ...

          You make it clear that you could not in elementary arithmetic - which was shown by me above.
          Quote: DrEng527
          urging others to learn materiel you yourself do not know the banal - I recommend remembering the famous race of the Russian EBR and the average speed at the same time! you are ridiculous in your ignorance - to confuse a squadron move for several hours in battle and a long move of the same squadron ...

          I, unlike you, know. And I know that the EBR race is in no way applicable to 2TOE - there were ships that had undergone repairs in Vladivostok and the PA, which made a bulkhead of cars. This is "slightly different" than 2TOE, which broke through half the world without entering the equipped ports. And it's even ridiculous to compare it with Japanese EBRs.
          I also know that the "several-hour" squadron run of the same "Mikasa" without any problems supported at least 31 hours from 5 am to 12 noon on May 14-15, for example. The same applies to combat in the GM.
          Quote: DrEng527
          Your ignorance is akin to your aplomb to write deliberate nonsense ...
          chew, since you don't understand:

          But I warned that some people are better off chewing than talking :))))
        12. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 March 2021 16: 46
          0
          So, your calculation showed
          Quote: DrEng527
          But at a speed of even 14 knots, compared with 10 knots, the Russian fuel consumption increases by 2,75 times, and this is on the assumption of equality of the quality of coal and the linearity of the efficiency of the CMU at 10 and 14 knots - which is obviously debatable ... convinced that Japanese stokers will get tired less than Russians ...

          Have you laughed? Well now it's my turn
          You figured that the Russians at 10 knots would use 2,75 times less coal than the Japanese at 14 knots. Very good :))) But here's the bad luck, from May 12 to May 13, the Russian EBRs (Orel, Borodino, Alexander), at an average speed of 7,7 knots, spent 110-116 tons of coal (ALmaz's signal book). But "Mikasa", participating in the Tsushima battle, for a full running day, from 05:14 to 05:15 on May 194, consumed 14 tons of coal, while during this time its speed averaged from 15 to XNUMX knots.
          Now let's take your cube exercises and count them.
          7,7 knots cube = 456,5
          10 knots cube = 1000
          Total according to your formula
          Quote: DrEng527
          how can I tell you, without leaving the rules of the forum ... the speed cubically depends on the power of the CMU - then chew?

          it turns out that the consumption of coal by Russian ships by 10 knots should be 2,19 times higher than this consumption by 7,7. knots And here's the bottom line:
          According to YOUR methodology, Russian EBRs had to spend 10 t * 110 = 2,19 t on a daily crossing at a speed of 240,9 knots. Mikasa used 194 tons for 14-15 knots.
          Whose stokers will get tired less? laughing
          Quote: DrEng527
          if you find out how much the Japanese had in real life and how they were involved in patrols, you will understand that this is fatal ...

          4 lines with 4 VKR in each. Yes, the loss of one or two of them is sooooo fatal. Especially in conditions when the coordinates of 2TOE are known, and have long been transferred to the authorities
          Quote: DrEng527
          I will reveal to you a terrible secret - you cannot replay history, so any of our conjectures about RYAV are hypotheses, nothing more!

          I have no conjectures. I have facts.
          Quote: DrEng527
          why - I understand, emoticons strain you ...

          Actually, the quintessence of our discussion. You did not understand anything from what I wrote, and you stubbornly continue to stand your ground :)))) Good luck!
        13. DrEng527
          DrEng527 2 March 2021 18: 36
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well now it's my turn

          you're not good at it! wink
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          According to YOUR methodology, Russian EBRs should have spent 10 t * 110 = 2,19 t on a daily crossing at a speed of 240,9 knots

          1) This is not my technique, this is the law of conservation of energy.
          2) The daily consumption of the EBR included the consumption of coal not only for running, but also for household needs, which amounted to 26 tons / day for Borodino residents. hi
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Whose stokers will get tired less?

          Russians!
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Especially in conditions when the coordinates of 2TOE are known, and have long been transferred to the authorities

          your Japanese people are omnipotent and omnipresent ... bully curious - when will the Japanese have time to tear off all the VKR from these lines and deploy new lines on the way to Vladik? bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I have no conjectures. I have facts.

          hmm, it looks like symptoms ...
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          ) Good luck!

          have a nice one you too! hi
        14. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 March 2021 21: 13
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          The daily consumption of EBR included the cost of coal not only for running, but also for household needs, which amounted to 26 tons / day for Borodino residents.

          Yes, no question, since you were also banned by the calculator :)))) Even if we assume that the consumption of the Russian EBRs was 106 tons (actually - higher) and only 80 of them were spent on a move, then in this case it has
          80 * 2,19 + 26 = 201,2 for the Russians at 10 knots versus 194 tons for the Japanese at 14-15 knots.

          Quote: DrEng527
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Whose stokers will get tired less?

          Russians!

          Sit down, deuce.
        15. DrEng527
          DrEng527 3 March 2021 11: 38
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Sit down, deuce.

          you, just find out why Arisaki has a caliber less than 7 mm wink
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Even if we count

          is there any reason to doubt? or you just didn't know about it? wink
        16. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 March 2021 12: 20
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          you, just find out why Arisaki has a caliber less than 7 mm

          The half-life of radium is not necessary? :))))
          Okay, that's really all. You are incapable of admitting your mistakes, and your argumentation ended a dozen more comments ago.
          Just now I saw:
          Quote: DrEng527
          Not a lot, taking into account the tasks! EM only 21 (400t types Ikazuchi, Murakumo, Akatsuki, Shirakumo, Harusame, Akatsuki (Resolute)) and 15 smaller (150t - Hayabusa type).

          :))))) You didn't even know how to count the number of destroyers in the Japanese fleet
        17. DrEng527
          DrEng527 3 March 2021 13: 13
          -1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          half-life of radium is not necessary? :))))

          thanks I know
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You couldn't even count the number of destroyers in the Japanese fleet

          waiting for your number wink
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You are incapable of admitting your mistakes, and your argumentation ended a dozen more comments ago.


          I'm trite tired of poking you into your own stupidity (citing exact quotes, or you and myself), alas, but you either consider them to be something outstanding or stop noticing ... hi
          As a matter of fact, you do not want to debate or are not able to! Let me remind you that the question was about the possibility and expediency of a demonstration to mislead the Japanese. I cited several theses - which you could not refute - in response to continuing to pull the owl onto the globe about the greatness of the ZPR or claims against my modest person ... request
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 2 March 2021 18: 21
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Well, as I understand it, in your universe, the Japanese were struck by senile dementia, and they are sent to monitor 2TOE 1-2 VKR?

    Unlike you, I represent the problems of Togo and the shortcomings of its resources! He had to keep 3 straits under control and for a fairly long time! And you proceed from the realities of ITOE, when the DB went in a limited area! I recommend watching the actions of the FOC!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    For God's sake, go to alternativeshistory (though they won't appreciate such a fantasy even there), but why are you spreading your verses like this as a real alternative to the events that took place?

    where do I go - I'll decide for myself! by the way - if you do not know the exact meaning of the words, then it is better not to use them - it looks silly: "VIRSHI, -y; pl. [from Polish. wierczy - verses] 1. Ukrainian and Russian syllabic verses of the 16th - 18th centuries by Virshi Feofan Prokopovich. 2. Iron. About poetry (usually bad). Sprinkle in. " bully
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Taking into account the fact that your intermediaries have admitted obviously impossible preconditions for the game, its value is negative.

    pride and know-it-all are qualities of amateurs ... my flag officer was a drop navigator wink
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    It is a pity, but my stock of beads is not endless.

    By no means a bad upbringing hi
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    which was shown by me above.

    by no means - take a map of the Pacific
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And I know that the EBR race does not apply at all to 2TOE

    and I applied it to it? learn to understand what is written!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I also know that the "several-hour" squadron move of the same "Mikasa" without any problems supported at least 31 hours

    those. do you think that Mikasa was playing with 15 moves all this time? wink
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But I warned that some people are better off chewing than talking :))))

    in other words, they realized that they were a layman and decided to play some fun? bully
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 March 2021 10: 13
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    those. do you think that Mikasa was playing with 15 moves all this time?

    I do not believe, I know that the speed of the ship was within 14-15 knots
    May 14 Mikasa showed
    05.00-08.00 - from 76 to 96 revolutions
    08.00-12.00 - 80 ... 90 revolutions
    12.00-16.00 - from 76 to 96 revolutions
    16.00-20.00 - 90 revolutions
    20.00-24.00 - 96 ... 100 revolutions
    15 May
    00.00-04.00 - 96 ... 100 revolutions
    04.00-08.00 - 96 ... 100 revolutions
    15 Mikasa knots corresponds to approximately 95 rpm
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 3 March 2021 11: 41
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    05.00-08.00 - from 76 to 96 revolutions
    08.00-12.00 - 80 ... 90 revolutions
    12.00-16.00 - from 76 to 96 revolutions

    you see - at the indicated time the move was even lower ... wink
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 March 2021 12: 16
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    you see - at the indicated time the move was lower too ..

    Truly so:
    “You will listen and listen, but you will not understand
    you will look and look, but you will not see.
    Matthew 13: 14

    After all, it was said in Russian that the average speed of Mikasa was in the range from 14 to 15 knots. Taking into account that (again - roughly) the speed knot on Mikasa corresponded to approximately 6,4 revolutions, it turns out that
    For 3 hours (05-08 May 14), the ship had a speed of 12 to 15 knots.
    next 4 hours - 12,5-14 knots
    next 4 hours - 12-15 knots
    next 4 hours - 14 knots
    next 12 hours - 15-16 knots
    Taking, roughly, weighted average, we get 14,4 knots. I wrote - 14-15 knots.
    I see only one thing - your inability to admit your own mistakes.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 2 March 2021 18: 08
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    "Weighty" argument.

    fundamental!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Actually, he was delayed because Rozhestvensky sent part of the TR to China and it became known that they appeared there.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I'm even afraid to ask why you blurted out about Shanghai.

    I hope now it's understood why I blurted out bully
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    So, 2 and 3TOE left on May 1, went roughly 8-9 knots, with a maximum speed

    I already wrote to you earlier - the speeds of the 2TOE and the demonstration squad can be made different!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But here's the problem - now they would have to walk almost 1950 km along Japan

    be surprised, but if the demonstration detachment is sent from the traverse of Taiwan in a straight line, then the distances change noticeably ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    What a stupid Rozhdestvensky was that sent the VSKR and TR to certain death and the MAIN THING - to no avail.

    1) 4VSKR passed around the world without any use
    2) The Urals corny died without any sense, as well as part of the TR, and with a load.
    3) If Togo turned up earlier, then most of the RSCR would calmly go into the ocean - it is not possible to catch up with them, taking into account their speed and autonomy! And it's just stupid to drown empty TRs ...
    4) you forgot about the fact that armored frigates could make noise on the tracks to Tokyo, "giving out" the movement of 2TOE, for example, by releasing the neutral after the inspection ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    where to get this coal? In theory - from transports and VSKR, they still had quite a lot of it ...

    1) you nicely forgot that I offered to send an EMPTY TR!
    2) you forgot the banal - that when creating a plan, this factor would be taken into account! By the way, when driving at a low speed, the coal consumption fell, they would have loaded onto the edge again - this was a mastered procedure.
    3) It is a pity that having understood everything, you are not ready to accept the essence! And it is that the demonstration was possible, reasonable and justified! The question of why is the answer in the first thesis of this post! hi
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 2 March 2021 17: 51
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I read, laughed.

    happy for you, I hope you do not go to this site to grieve?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    They protect themselves from destroyers at night not by artillery fire, but by fast speed and maneuver.

    reading you amuse yourself with how you contradict yourself ...
    so for understanding my thesis:
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    they simply turned away from them, opening fire - very often in such situations, Japanese destroyers "to clear their conscience" shot after them, with practically no chance of hitting the target, and left the attack

    ask yourself a question - why did the Japanese not get close, since in your opinion the Russian fire was a weak hindrance for them ... I note that the range of the Japanese torpedoes is about 5 cab, it is stupid to take into account the 15uz mode.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the detection range of destroyers will be less,

    it works both ways ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    turning the whole squadron quickly still won't work

    why all? The squadron accepts a special order for movement at night, for example - if there are 5 cabs between the columns of the EBR (and less dangerous), then the Japanese torpedoes have no chance of reaching another column ... hi
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    , all the destroyer detachments will hang on it -

    I have already drawn your attention to the fact that you are thinking strangely, exaggerating in advance the capabilities of the Japanese and belittling the Russians! When a breakthrough occurs at night, it is simply impossible to concentrate all MN! I already wrote to you that the unit will leave with the United Fleet to the north! The bases of the rest are scattered across the strait.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Total - one or two wrecked (or sunk) ships at least,

    The results of the battle between MN and ITOE speak of something else. Moreover, ITOE could not avoid the attacks of MN, but finding 1TOE is still a task.
    And finally, I already wrote to you earlier - it is quite possible to distract the enemy for false targets by selecting a special detachment - for example, from the Russian MN! Send them on a false course and simulate a night battle, to the sounds of which other MNs will go ... in general, this is corny, if you think a little, and not go ahead with a 9th move ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Is the minimum daylight hours a shortage of time? And he, this daylight, they WILL have.

    Let's just say - at least once were the Japanese able to organize a night attack by the WOK? Why? I recommend that you evaluate the possibilities of the autonomy of the MN at that time! For a day of a serious move, they will be left without coal ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Will there be any objections on the merits of the issue?

    and this is essentially - you just do not understand! bully
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Which the Japanese have to the devil

    Not a lot, taking into account the tasks! EM only 21 (400t types Ikazuchi, Murakumo, Akatsuki, Shirakumo, Harusame, Akatsuki (Resolute)) and 15 smaller (150t - Hayabusa type).
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    They explained to you in Russian why the Japanese will establish contact with 2TOE and will keep it all the next day.

    your assumptions are far from fact! Note that even in reality, not all 2TOE ships were discovered by the Japanese! This position is just convenient for you. But even in this case, it is very difficult to organize an MP attack in the middle of the Sea of ​​Japan! Especially considering the quality of radio communications on the MH!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I already wrote - it is not needed at all for anything.

    you will not die of modesty ...
  • geniy
    geniy 17 February 2021 15: 35
    0
    You, like everyone else, do not understand the essence of naval shooting. The fact is that the shells ricochet off the surface of the sea. and Rozhestvensky put his squadron that it actually fired ricocheting shells. Which often hit the Japanese armor incorrectly and therefore could not penetrate it.
  • unknown
    unknown 18 February 2021 23: 35
    0
    Indicator.
    But, add the speed, up to the real that the first squad could give - 14 knots.
    It would have been better.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 17 February 2021 14: 54
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Even Novikov-Priboy, and then noted the constant maneuvering exercises

    Novikov-Priboy notes more swearing and abuse. But there was only one live fire. Or more?
    1. Roman81
      17 February 2021 16: 43
      +1
      Those in the Baltic where they conducted the full BP course? Madagascar is beyond the plan
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 17 February 2021 21: 10
      +2
      Quote: Kwas
      But there was only one live fire. Or more?

      The Swede wrote to EMNIP about three. And also in his testimony there is a fairly complete list of practical shells used up in the exercises. The number is quite decent.
      In addition, one must remember that the "Eagle" joined the squadron later than other battleships and therefore did not participate in combat training in Libau. There were ten artillery fires alone.
  • Khibiny Plastun
    Khibiny Plastun 17 February 2021 17: 51
    +2
    Good day.
    And when Zinovy ​​directly forbade the repainting of ships in a khaki color "ugly but uniformly."
    In essence, he directly stopped the preparation for the battle - cleaning ships from combustible materials. But you are entrusted with the lives of people, the fleet of the State and, finally, the honor of the Empire, do your duty, and do not break down, like a hysterical student-sailor in your ear, you do not need to put a big clever fist in your ear. You just had to do everything in your power to win, and not like to suffer mentally in your admiral's salon. So, Rozhdestvensky is one of the main culprits in the whole tragedy of the Russian fleet in this war, he is the bureaucrat who is guilty along with "seven pounds of the august meat"
    So it makes no sense to wash the black dog ...
    1. Roman81
      17 February 2021 20: 00
      +1
      The masts are in protective, the rest does not matter at those distances and with those rangefinder scopes
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 23 February 2021 07: 11
        +1
        For some reason, the participants in the battle thought differently. There was bad weather with wisps of fog, plus smoke. The yellow color of the pipes in fog is best seen, as is the contrasting black.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 24 February 2021 14: 32
          0
          Quote: mmaxx
          The yellow color of pipes in fog is best seen

          Best seen is red. And yellow merges with the fog.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 07: 39
      +2
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      And when Zinovy ​​directly forbade the repainting of ships in a khaki color "ugly but uniformly."

      Didn't they ask Zinovey himself? :))) And he answered bluntly - in this form the ships are better protected from destroyers.
      Today it seems that such an answer is absurd, but then it turned out like this - in the ZhM the Japanese were not able to knock out a single Russian ship with artillery fire. But at night after the battle, a torpedo hit on the EBR took place - it's good that the torpedo did not work. And Rozhestvensky believed that the artillery fire on his ships would somehow do it, according to the model of the 1TOE, especially since his squadron also had more heavy guns, and he taught them to shoot relatively well. But the destroyers, which were to be expected much more than under Arthur (the proximity of Japanese bases), posed a serious threat.
      In general, an urgent advice - do not judge Tsushima by the work of Novikov-Priboy
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 18 February 2021 18: 07
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Didn't they ask Zinovey himself? :))) And he answered bluntly - in this form the ships are better protected from destroyers.

        I would agree if not for the pipes ...
        1. Roman81
          18 February 2021 21: 51
          0
          rangefinders aimed at the masts, the pipe does not fit
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 18 February 2021 23: 03
            0
            What are you holding onto the rangefinders? The rangefinder is only needed for the first projectile to land closer to the target. Further, the fire is adjusted by sighting.
            But the fact that in the testimony all of ours unanimously howl about bad rangefinders, which quickly went out of order, says only that they did not see their bursts and beat the rangefinder into white light as a pretty penny.
    3. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 18 February 2021 10: 18
      0
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      Good day.
      And when Zinovy ​​directly forbade the repainting of ships in a khaki color "ugly but uniformly."
      In essence, he directly stopped the preparation for the battle - cleaning ships from combustible materials. But you are entrusted with the lives of people, the fleet of the State and, finally, the honor of the Empire, do your duty, and do not break down, like a hysterical student-sailor in your ear, you do not need to put a big clever fist in your ear. You just had to do everything in your power to win, and not like to suffer mentally in your admiral's salon. So, Rozhdestvensky is one of the main culprits in the whole tragedy of the Russian fleet in this war, he is the bureaucrat who is guilty along with "seven pounds of the august meat"
      So it makes no sense to wash the black dog ...

      Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side
    4. unknown
      unknown 19 February 2021 00: 14
      0
      Didn't work out intellectually.
      I came up with this term a long time ago.
      Friends and students liked it.
      Remember.
      Enjoyed.
      Exactly, but without the mat.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 18 February 2021 15: 17
    +3
    It reminded me of the diaries of Nicholas II after his abdication. Yes, this is not Suvorov, who in the Italian campaign ordered to throw all the "Prussian accessories" to hell, and did not allow anyone to meddle in operational plans. Conciliator, it is difficult to imagine such an "Italian" report from Suvorov: "from the north of Moreau, from the south of MacDonald, the Austrians are unreliable, - nothing but a new page of Russian shame!" I don't even know how to describe this "cry".
  • antivirus
    antivirus 17 February 2021 07: 24
    +2
    Voroshilov earned his Lugansk and in the Caucasus ---- did not substitute each other and did what they could. Not what you need to report
  • ANB
    ANB 17 February 2021 09: 34
    +5
    ... At all times it has been and remains even in the smallest production - it is easier for the bosses to appoint an extreme worker or a master of some kind, and even forget than to look for reasons.

    Not always. I happened to serve and work under the guidance of other bosses.
  • Graz
    Graz 18 February 2021 15: 59
    +1
    As a result - Tsushima, in which, of course, a mediocrity is guilty. Not a system

    there is such a hackneyed phrase from Stalin's times
    "Every mistake has a name, surname, and title.
    so here, too, after the Tsushima disaster, had the tsar imprisoned all the perpetrators in a fortress or on a stage to Siberia, even if several thousand people had to be condemned, perhaps something could have been changed in the fate of RI.
    1. unknown
      unknown 19 February 2021 00: 18
      0
      You can not.
      Many researchers have come to the conclusion that the "300-year" period of the Romanovs' rule was falsified.
      The old dynasty, real, German, was destroyed.
      Part of the "elite" was dragged to their side.
      The assets were taken out.
      Social obligations have been nullified.
      Corrected in the UK under the name of George V.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 17 February 2021 06: 27
    +11
    As I understand it, this government went into a general battle at 9 knots with a caravan of transports.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 07: 56
      +3
      Quote: Cartalon
      As I understand it, this government went into a general battle at 9 knots with a caravan of transports.

      And tactically outplayed the Japanese at the stage of the beginning of the battle
      1. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 09: 53
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And tactically outplayed the Japanese at the stage of the beginning of the battle

        these are YOUR PERSONAL "mriyas" wassat
        on the basis of worship request Zinovy
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 44
          0
          Quote: 2534M
          these are YOUR PERSONAL "mriyas"

          No, that's a fact. About which Gribovsky did not write, why he is unknown to you.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 53
              0
              Quote: kapitan281271
              he warned quite rightly IMPOSSIBLE.

              then he had to tell the tsar, and not lead the squadron to defeat ... request and if you have already taken it, look for ways, not whine ...
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 17 February 2021 12: 56
                +3
                Quote: DrEng527
                then I had to tell the king

                And who did he tell?
                “The first squadron, which before the war had 30 warships of various ranks and 28 destroyers, was not enough to capture the sea. The second squadron, which has 20 combat ships and only 9 destroyers, is no longer able to capture the sea, because nothing remained of the first squadron except the armored cruiser Rossiya.

                Telegram to Nicholas II from the squadron commander.
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 17 February 2021 13: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  And who did he tell?

                  means so he said! The same Essen, when it was necessary to set up barriers, this is the difference between the courtier and the naval commander ...
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Telegram to Nicholas II from the squadron commander.

                  Otmazon - ZPR did not even use his 9 MN in battle ... would he have 30 pieces - better?
                  And in general - the main force is the EBR - Togo has 4 of them, the ZPR - count it yourself, and also compare the number of 10-12 dm of guns on squadrons ... People are fighting, but with guns ... request
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 17 February 2021 14: 01
                    +2
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    People are fighting, but with guns

                    The guns are not on their own either. Shells, explosives in them. But not the point.
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    then had to tell the king

                    He said.
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 17 February 2021 14: 40
                      0
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      The guns are not on their own either. Shells, explosives in them. But not the point.

                      Finding out Russian shells is a common place - however, according to calculations, more Japanese perished per 1 Russian hit than 1 Japanese ... request
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      He said.

                      when they speak correctly, the right decisions are made ... request
                      1. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 17 February 2021 15: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        however, according to calculations, more Japanese were killed per 1 Russian hit than by 1 Japanese ...

                        In one single battle. On the same ship. And most of these people were PMK gunners. That is, they stupidly did not think to remove them under the armor. That's all the miracle.
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 17 February 2021 15: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In one single battle.

                        Tsushima alone was enough ... request
                      3. rytik32
                        rytik32 24 February 2021 12: 28
                        0
                        Not only in Tsushima, but also in PA and WM too.
                      4. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 24 February 2021 14: 15
                        0
                        Quote: rytik32
                        in Tsushima

                        We cannot know this. At least in relation to Russian losses from Japanese shells.
                        Again, the correctness of this parameter is questionable. For example, “Oleg” in Tsushima suffered more than “Aurora”, but his losses were less.
                2. Kwas
                  Kwas 17 February 2021 15: 02
                  +2
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  He said.

                  And he had to demand: "Either I will command, as I think it is correct, or appoint another admiral!" As Makarov just did, and before and after - many people.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 17 February 2021 15: 18
                    +1
                    Quote: Kwas
                    As Makarov just did

                    Rozhestvensky, like Makarov, also asked for resignation. It just doesn't always work.
                    Quote: Kwas
                    and before and after - many people.

                    Uh ... and who, may I ask?
                  2. Kwas
                    Kwas 18 February 2021 12: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    and before and after - many people.

                    Uh ... and who, may I ask?

                    Textbook - Zhukov before the Kiev catastrophe, Rokossovsky before "Bagration", Senyavin "simply" did not receive the highest instructions ", Suvorov, in principle, did only what he considered necessary.
                  3. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 18 February 2021 12: 49
                    0
                    Slightly different situations.
    2. 2534M
      2534M 17 February 2021 11: 53
      -1
      Quote: kapitan281271
      So he did not drool Zinovy, he warned quite reasonably IMPOSSIBLE.

      fool
      WHOM?!?!? WIFE?!?!
      despite the fact that he actually Lied to the Emperor about this !!!

      You yourself are not funny ????
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 17 February 2021 12: 57
        +1
        Quote: 2534M
        WHOM?!?!? WIFE?!?!

        king.
  • A_Mazkov
    A_Mazkov 21 February 2021 18: 26
    +2
    Actually, in fact, Togo outplayed Rozhestvensky in the outset of the battle. Nobody argues that the first 20 minutes decided the outcome of the Tsushima battle?
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 51
    +5
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And tactically outplayed the Japanese at the stage of the beginning of the battle

    is it making a bunch? hi or the ability of Togo to focus fire on its flagships?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • unknown
    unknown 19 February 2021 00: 19
    0
    Didn't outplay.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 23 February 2021 07: 16
    0
    Well, I didn’t outplay anyone’s ZPR, I didn’t outplay ... What are the results of this replay? Many hits on Mikasa? And we have? Minus Oslyabya and Suvorov. Wrong exchange. Mikasa fought to the very end. And the same Suvorov did not represent anything of himself until his death.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 08: 05
    +3
    Quote: Cartalon
    As I understand it, this government went into a general battle at 9 knots with a caravan of transports.

    Greetings, in hindsight we are all great! But in this case, you are right from a tactical point of view, the most illiterate decision.
  • Roman81
    17 February 2021 16: 44
    +2
    There were no transports in the column from 11 junction. The maximum stroke with the risk of breakage is 13, up to 9 fell from time to time
    1. geniy
      geniy 17 February 2021 17: 12
      +2
      Oh, and who, after the battle of the wounded Russian ships, one of which, the ancient Nicholas 1, went in stormy conditions at a speed of 13 knots all night without breakdowns? Moreover, the Eagle had a lot of holes and 300 tons of water on the decks ... And if they could develop a little higher speed before the battle. By the way, the Japanese were not runners either in stormy conditions.
      1. Roman81
        17 February 2021 17: 31
        +1
        11 just actually. Not everything in the testimony can be trusted

        On the 15th, the Apraksin's stroke was 11 knots, despite the fact that the machines worked at 110, and sometimes 115 revolutions; such a bad move was because the bow section of the battleship was flooded and he was drilling heavily in the water; I think that without a flooded bow compartment, he could give up to 12 knots.
        Upon delivery, the battleship had about 80 tons of coal, above the norm.
        1. geniy
          geniy 17 February 2021 21: 45
          0
          just actually. Not everything in the testimony can be trusted

          That's it. You may not believe your arguments either. I will quote in response:
          "Nikolai 1" began to increase the stroke and brought it to 13-14 knots ... Behind the "Eagle" was "Apraksin" ...

          "Eagle, keeping a distance of two cables, developed 92 revolutions, a stroke of 13 knots. ... Judging by the number of revolutions, the ship could easily develop up to 16 knots." Can you explain how two ships sailing together - Orel and Apraksin developed a different course: Oleg 13 knots, and Apraksin - 11. Can't you? I'll explain. It was May 15, when the Russians were surrounded from all sides by the Japanese squadron and there was no need to rush.
          1. Roman81
            17 February 2021 22: 36
            +1
            And can read all the same? In the evening Apraksin was damaged, at night he walked ON ELEVEN KNOTS in the ranks, in the morning he did not lag behind and ended up next to Orel and Nikolai. One of two things - either it was transgluted from time to time, or ...
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 18 February 2021 14: 14
              +1
              The issue of speed on the night of May 15 is very controversial. Different people call mutually exclusive numbers.
              And the truth is most likely that Nebogatov, with the onset of darkness, gave the fullest speed: 12, and most likely even 13 knots. The wounded men fell behind and were finished off by the Japanese. Nebogatov then lowered the move, but it was too late. And at the trial, in order not to admit that they had stretched the squadron, some bleated about 11 knots.
              1. Roman81
                18 February 2021 21: 52
                0
                This is not a trial but testimony from a commission. Everyone was interviewed from Apraksin. Was there a conspiracy of 500 people? Most likely they gave revolutions which in a normal state are equal to 13 knots. The condition was abnormal
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. rytik32
                  rytik32 18 February 2021 23: 00
                  0
                  And the stokers also confirmed the speed? )))
    2. unknown
      unknown 19 February 2021 00: 20
      0
      Maximum travel -14 knots.
      The Japanese, that the first squad, that the slow-moving cruisers of Kamimura have 14 knots.
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 06: 29
    -9
    Wow, what an interesting topic ... However, the MAIN thing is missing - persistent rumors circulating among the officers of the squadron that the famous articles of Klado were the intrigues of Rozhestvensky himself (through his wife).
    Well, they forgot "quite the pulp" - FINANCIAL QUESTION - Ginsburg loot (from which a good% immediately went to ROLL) get (A) l upon shipment of coal or ADVANCE. The ZELO question is topical (but with a very bad "smell"), because if it is AVANCE, then the squadron had to DRIVE to Tsushima - STUPID so that it would be possible to write off the already "sawn" loot
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 07: 58
      +10
      Quote: 2534M
      However, the main thing was missed - persistent rumors circulating among the officers of the squadron that the famous articles of Klado were the intrigues of Rozhestvensky himself (through his wife).

      Can you ask about the source of this? :))) Delirium, delirious.
      1. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 09: 20
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Can you ask about the source of this? :)))

        I'll post a quote, it seems like it's not Kostenko
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Delirium, delirious.

        is the link to the letter of Zinovy's wife in support of Klado also "nonsense"?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 19
          +2
          Quote: 2534M
          I'll post a quote, it seems like it's not Kostenko

          What I know is only Kostenko
          Quote: 2534M
          is the link to the letter of Zinovy's wife in support of Klado also "nonsense"?

          You don't understand that a letter in support of Klado is one thing, but
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          persistent rumors circulating among the officers of the squadron that the famous articles of Klado were the intrigues of Rozhestvensky himself

          Completely different?
          Okay, let's go from the other side - state the essence of the intrigue, please
          1. 2534M
            2534M 17 February 2021 10: 22
            -4
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            a letter in support of Klado is one

            yes bullshit
            "little little" ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            state the essence of the intrigue, please

            but I myself do not understand a lot
            I really wanted to dig in archives and libraries
            but not all of this was done
            especially interested in "coal tranches"
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 24
              +1
              Quote: 2534M
              yes bullshit
              "little little" ...

              So what is the claim, can you explain?
              1. 2534M
                2534M 17 February 2021 10: 29
                -4
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So what is the claim, can you explain?

                yes so, "trifle"
                "Zhinka went across her husband - Dying off going to war"
                little
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 39
                  +4
                  Quote: 2534M
                  yes so, "trifle"
                  "Zhinka went across her husband - Dying off going to war"
                  little

                  And where did she go "across her husband"? :) Was it Rozhestvensky who ordered to put Klado in the guardhouse? Or Rozhestvensky appeared in the press with an angry refutation of Klado's articles? :)))) How exactly did the "transverse" manifest itself? :)
                  Tell us specifically in what place, what letters or other data that appeared BEFORE the letter of the ZPR's wife in defense of Klado Rozhdestvensky made her understand his position on this issue
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 17 February 2021 10: 42
                    -3
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And where did she go "across her husband"?

                    do not see irony?
                    or "we stubbornly refuse to see" the "inconvenient" for Zinovy?
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    BEFORE the letter from his wife ZPR in defense of Klado

                    for a start I am very interested in this letter
                    not found yet
                    but looking for
                    despite the fact that it was "not in itself" but as a PART of the "general situation" around the VTE
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 06
                      +4
                      Quote: 2534M
                      for a start I am very interested in this letter
                      not found yet
                      but looking for

                      Well, when you find AT LEAST ANYTHING in support of your accusations - then we'll talk
                      1. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 11: 16
                        -4
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, when you find AT LEAST ANYTHING to confirm your accusations

                        enough for a start and this
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        letter of support for Klado is one

                        laughing
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 25
                        +3
                        Quote: 2534M
                        enough for a start and this

                        That is, unconfirmed chatter? Oh well.
                        The letter in support of Klado is not evidence of either
                        Quote: 2534M
                        persistent rumors circulating among the officers of the squadron that the famous articles of Klado were the intrigues of Rozhestvensky himself

                        nor
                        Quote: 2534M
                        "Zhinka went across her husband - Dying off going to war"

                        The first is self-evident, the second - the letter would be "across" only if Rozhestvensky's wife knew her husband's position before she wrote her letter.
                        Moreover. You could not even explain what exactly you accuse Rozhestvensky on the basis of the rumors you indicated. What exactly did Rozhestvensky want to achieve, constantly fighting off "gifts" in the person of 3TOE and even Dobrotvorsky's detachment, by Klado's publications? What is the intrigue there? :)))
                        You did not receive an answer to this question either
                      3. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 11: 45
                        -4
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The first is self-evident, the second - the letter would be "across" only if Rozhestvensky's wife knew her husband's position before she wrote her letter.

                        fool
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        what exactly do you accuse Rozhdestvensky

                        in which he was UNCONDITIONALLY INTERESTED - in the cancellation of the VTE campaign
                        and to report this directly and personally to H2 he is "not Schmog"
  • Roman81
    17 February 2021 11: 25
    +1
    He did not write any other letters to his wife. All there is is here, and all references to Klado are here.
  • Roman81
    17 February 2021 17: 13
    +2
    Nothing that Zinovy ​​himself led? Or did he steal so much that he decided to launder through his death? No offense, but nonsense, especially since the contracts went through Seven pounds and Avelan
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 06: 31
    +1
    - The Skrydlovs, Dubasovs, Chukhnins never arrived at the squadron.

    following the "hand-wringing" (LOGIC "this" wassat can not be named) the author they "fled" (and apparently from the country)
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 06: 34
    0
    The "love" of Zinovy ​​for Clado is also interesting:
    “Can it be that poor Klado has confused the Petersburg brains ... of which a simple captain of the 2nd rank Klado finds it possible to form a third squadron in a few weeks.

    and the author is generally aware that "before that" Zinovy ​​R and Klado had a very warm relationship, I would even say "trusting" (why he "resolved" the "gulsky incident" and sent it)
    1. Roman81
      17 February 2021 11: 27
      +1
      I know. in the same way, in the course that yesterday and today are different concepts. Clado in St. Petersburg suffered, especially with the Third Squadron
      1. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 11: 29
        -2
        Quote: Roman81
        I know. in the same way, in the course that yesterday and today are different concepts. Clado in St. Petersburg suffered, especially with the Third Squadron

        Possible.
        And perhaps it didn't.
        There are a number of "incomprehensible issues" on the WTE, which need to be understood "in a complex".
        And "coal tranches" among them
        1. Roman81
          17 February 2021 16: 46
          0
          In general, everything is clear, the nuances can be dug endlessly. A complete and systemic failure, Zinovy ​​is guilty of being a careerist and leading. There is no other fault on him
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 17 February 2021 06: 37
    +11
    The author is right in some way - no matter how they call the ZPR, but a person is always sincere only with very close people. And maybe the answers to many questions lie in these letters. They just need to be objectively accepted, otherwise people here really like to wave checkers - they are all smart and appoint fools themselves. After all, the criteria for assessing personality depend on the critic himself.
    And now nothing has changed. I know such bosses whose logic is impeccable - I gave it to you, so do it. And WHAT he gave and HOW to do it, he no longer cares. And then, as a result, you remain extreme - "you did badly and you don't know how to do nichrome." And on the offer to repeat the execution of his order with what he gave, you should wag your finger in front of your nose, which is interpreted unambiguously in the majority - I am the boss, you, as they would say today, imbecile. Curtain.
    A plus for the author, I hope I gave many food for thought ...
    1. unknown
      unknown 19 February 2021 00: 21
      0
      Not always. Rather, self-justification.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 17 February 2021 06: 38
    +8
    For the life of me, there is such a rule - the bosses are in Moscow, but you are here! And in that war it was like that: under Makarov, the squadron held back the inclinations of the Japanese fleet, as soon as Makarov was gone - almost the next day, the landing began right under Arthur, 100 km away. Is Nikolashka also to blame?
    Well, for Rozhdestvensky there is only one joint - he didn’t do anything. Nothing. This is if according to him. Makarov could also sit in Arthur and ask the highest permission for every exit. The exit of the squadron is a strategic action. But Makarov took out the squadron, Stark and Vitgeft - no. Vitgeft was just kicked out and the highest decree was only kicked out. They were also like Rozhdestvensky.
    Innocent everywhere! They were part of that rotten system, and by virtue of their position - a very noticeable part!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 08: 14
      +7
      You have raised an interesting topic. The hero of our article, Kuropatkin, Stark, Vitgeft, and others were systemic "convenient" admirals and generals, who in fact were a reflection of the system itself! I will repeat after the historian S. Vivatenko “it happens when people who are comfortable, pleasant to talk to, and not“ inconvenient ”and“ unpleasant ”become in power and the initial people.
      Competence in this case is a factor of the second, even third plan. And who is to blame for this?
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 56
        0
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        , Stark, Witgeft and others were systemic "convenient" admirals

        and what are the claims to Stark? with him, the squadron shot well! Vitgeft destroyed 2EBR and fought with dignity until his death ... request This is in contrast to the SOM, due to the uneasiness of which the EBR died with him ... request
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 17 February 2021 11: 43
      +1
      Quote: Cowbra
      And in that war it was like this: under Makarov, the squadron held back the inclinations of the Japanese fleet, as soon as Makarov was gone - almost the next day, the landing began right under Arthur, 100 km away.

      There, the matter was not so much in Makarov as in the loss of 1 TOE of one EBR and damage to the second. Of the 7 EBRs, three remained in service. Remain alive Makarov - the landing would still be landed.
      1. Cowbra
        Cowbra 17 February 2021 12: 13
        +6
        Lord, one exit of the squadron with a short-term battle and retreat to the outer roadstead (remember, before the landing - 100 km from the bay) - would disrupt the landing on the unequipped coast to hell. The transports would have to be driven to hell, where the destroyers would not get it, despite the fact that the transport is not an battleship, it will start blowing bubbles from the flop of some Bayan's thread, and those who have already landed would be fucked if they were the same on land Witgefta pears did not ramble. Or at least - Vitgeft would have done it. what I could. I would not have completely disrupted the landing - but I would definitely have stretched out in time, inflicted losses on the landing, and as if Arthur would have held out longer.
        But Vitya didn't do it. Hero, iti, he died on the bridge. Interestingly, how many died on land due to the fact that he did not climb the bridge, when the Japs flopped about 100 km away with songs on the beach?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 February 2021 15: 26
          0
          Quote: Cowbra
          Lord, but one exit of the squadron with a short-term battle and retreat to the outer roadstead (remember, before the landing - 100 km from the bay) - would disrupt the landing on the unequipped coast to hell.

          And all this time, the Japanese tentacles will look at the sky and completely forget about the cover of the landing. And also the passage of the remains of 1 TOE past its parking lot on the Elliot Islands.
          And yes squadron exit for the base conditions of Port Arthur, it is rather a crawl out - long, tedious and fraught with accidents. smile
          1. Cowbra
            Cowbra 17 February 2021 16: 17
            +3
            Quote: Alexey RA
            past his camp at the Elliot Islands.

            Um, I have not heard ... On the Elliot Islands there are no port facilities, no coal reserves, nothing but those islands are not there. Those. As I understand it, you can only throw an anchor there? Next comes the realization of that very advantage of a short shoulder - Port Arthur is 100 km away, the port of Japan is across the sea. He drove up the fleet, fired, crawled under the protection of the coastal ones, dropped the ammunition with coal, repaired a little - returned ... And the Japanese had a naked Vaser instead of supplies.
            They crawled out - for a long time ... And from ships to the bare shore they unloaded quickly, chtol? Landing equipment - longboat or butterfly laughing
            I, of course, am not a sailor of the beginning of the last century, but to realize that landing on an unequipped coast, moreover, a sufficient group so that it would not sit to death on the coast of a fly immediately, the operation is a couple of orders of magnitude more difficult than wrapping a toadstool with these airborne troops. But Vitgeft did nothing at all.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 18 February 2021 10: 36
              0
              Quote: Cowbra
              Um, I have not heard ... On the Elliot Islands there are no port facilities, no coal reserves, nothing but those islands are not there. Those. As I understand it, you can only throw an anchor there?

              On these islands, the Japanese fleet equipped a forward base - exactly after the death of Makarov.
              Quote: Cowbra
              Next comes the realization of the very advantage of a short shoulder - Port Arthur is 100 km away, the port of Japan is across the sea. He drove up the fleet, fired, crawled under the protection of the coastal ones, dropped the ammunition with coal, repaired a little, and returned.

              The first mistake of the alternate is that one side will alternate, the others stupidly follow the canon. smile If there is a surviving Makarov, the landing will be covered by Togo's EBR.
              Moreover, Togo can generally use the landing force as a decoy - to lure the remaining three EBRs of the 1st TOE out of Port Arthur and roll them out, taking advantage of the strength and speed. Fortunately, he calculated the course of action of Makarov even when setting the same mine can.
              1. Cowbra
                Cowbra 18 February 2021 10: 49
                +2
                I talked about this above, the battleship is not a transport. He will somehow crawl 100 km, beaten even by the whole squadron, which will not be: while standing at anchor, they will not be able to cover the EBRT. "- the whole squadron is beating one and there is nowhere to run away - you can't get off the anchor quickly, the pairs must be separated. Togo will not be able to hang around under the steam for a long time - it will burn the coal.
                In short, I repeat, Togo's task is two orders of magnitude more difficult, even I see vulnerable landing points near the port, where there is a combat-ready fleet, and some destroyers - at least help me. The question is that Vitgeft did nothing. Generally.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 18 February 2021 13: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Cowbra
                  I talked about this above, the battleship is not a transport. He will somehow crawl 100 km, beaten even by the whole squadron, which will not be: standing at anchor, they will not be able to cover anything

                  If the Japanese were so inadequate, Russia would definitely win in the RYAV. smile
                  In real life, as soon as 1 TOE begins to crawl out of the harbor, the "dog" on duty (or maybe an "asamoid" - so as not to be driven away for sure) will inform Togo about this. After which his EBR will come out to meet - and there will be another variant of the battle in the Yellow Sea. But ours will have only two old EBRs and one EBR-KR.
            2. rytik32
              rytik32 18 February 2021 11: 07
              +3
              Witgeft had no strength then. At most he could send several EVs and gunboats at night.

              Kuropatkin missed the landing, and directly ignored Alekseev. If we had moved the main forces to Biziwo, then the Japanese would have thrown off the sea. Oku had much less strength, and consider that there were no communications at all.
              1. mmaxx
                mmaxx 23 February 2021 07: 29
                +1
                In general, it is not clear what Kuropatkin was doing. It is clear to any shtafirka that the troops must be dropped immediately. Any foothold is a threat.
            3. unknown
              unknown 19 February 2021 00: 23
              0
              People born in the year of the Goat are not at all adapted to military affairs.
              And with us, and Shoigu. and the chief of the General Staff ...
    3. DrEng527
      DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 55
      +1
      Quote: Cowbra
      And so it was in that war: under Makarov, the squadron held back the inclinations of the Japanese fleet

      What is it like? losing MN as a fool or pushing the EBR?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 17 February 2021 15: 28
        +1
        Quote: DrEng527
        What is it like? losing MN as a fool or pushing the EBR?

        Driving the flagship EBR by stereotyped maneuvering straight to the mine bank. And before that - bringing the flagship EBR and accompanying CD directly to the battleships of Togo.
        1. DrEng527
          DrEng527 17 February 2021 15: 53
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And before that - bringing the flagship EBR and the accompanying CD directly to the battleships of Togo.

          The most curious thing is that he remained in the heroes, but Vitgeft in the doubters ... request
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 18 February 2021 10: 40
            0
            Quote: DrEng527
            The most curious thing is that he remained in the heroes, but Vitgeft in the doubters ...

            If you imagine that two boats went under sail from St. Petersburg to Kronstadt, let sailors sit on one, people completely unfamiliar with sea affairs on the other. The first will sail, and nothing interesting will happen to them on the way, the second will storm, in all likelihood, the sail will rip out, the boat will tumble on its side, it will begin to flood, the shirt will be raised instead of the sail, the water will be poured with hats, in a word, the swimming will be full of interest, in They will be greeted in Kronstadt with all kinds of applause, and these people will be known as true heroes.
            © S.O. Makarov (regarding the fight "Vesta"). smile
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 20
              +2
              Quote: Alexey RA
              (regarding the battle of "Vesta").

              evil....
            2. Cowbra
              Cowbra 18 February 2021 15: 43
              +2
              Quote: Alexey RA
              S.O. Makarov (regarding the fight "Vesta").

              This is where exactly the Christmas orders got it? Well ... an example in the topic
    4. andrew42
      andrew42 18 February 2021 15: 27
      +4
      I completely agree. On a sea voyage, Rozhdestvensky could do EVERYTHING he liked. Nobody would take it off. A careerist, he is also a careerist in Africa. "Sea caste" in the worst connotation, because caste. For ZPR, the bosses in St. Petersburg are 10 times more terrible than the Japanese.
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 06: 39
    -3
    There were no other willing admirals among dozens of admirals.
    And the last thing before the battle: "Yes, whatever the events of the coming days, the end result is nothing but a new page of Russia's shame."
    April 16, 1905 .... Conclusion The letters were written not for the prosecutor, not for colleagues, his beloved (judging by his tone) wife. And nobody would be cunning in such papers.

    I am a "worthy" Otmiral and a raftsman
    with such a specific "smell" (ROTTED), - even from the "case of Vesta" (and this is despite personal courage)
    - i.e. ZhINKE in the "vest to cry" (well, what would she then have it through Klado or someone else "to merge in the media") smEl, but HONESTLY report to the Emperor died-PLOTOVodets "what is afraid" ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 08: 00
      +9
      Quote: 2534M
      those. ZhINKE in the "vest to cry" (well, what would she then have it through Klado or someone else "to merge in the media") smEl, but HONESTLY report to the Sovereign Emperor died-PLOTOVodets "what is afraid" ...

      Have you tried to learn history?
      “With the forces at my disposal, I have no hope of restoring my dominant position at sea. My only possible task is to go to Vladivostok with the best ships and, based there, act on the messages of the enemy. "
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 17
          +1
          Quote: 2534M
          and among my TEACHERS were both "grandfather Shlomin" and V.Yu. Gribovsky

          Yes, especially Gribovsky ... with his bunch of wildest blunders and unconfirmed conclusions from scratch.
          You know the history within the limits of Gribovsky, of course. That is, you do not know from the word "in general"
          1. 2534M
            2534M 17 February 2021 10: 18
            -3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            unconfirmed conclusions from scratch.

            skip ahead
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You don't know the history

            Andryusha, do not confuse "Zinovy's club" with history
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 25
              +1
              Quote: 2534M
              Andryusha, do not confuse "Zinovy's club" with history

              Maxim, do not confuse the story with the writings of Gribovsky
              1. 2534M
                2534M 17 February 2021 10: 28
                -3
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                do not confuse history

                with your writing
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 47
                  +1
                  Quote: 2534M
                  with your writing

                  Maxim, this is written to me by a person who "floated" in the very first specific question (about rumors on the squadron about the intrigues of the ZPR and Klado) :)))) The value of your opinion about my writing is difficult to underestimate :)))))
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 17 February 2021 10: 59
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Maxim, this is written to me by a person who "floated" in the very first specific question (about rumors on the squadron about the intrigues of the ZPR and Klado) :)))) The value of your opinion about my writing is difficult to underestimate :)))))

                    Andrey, YOU have "floated" here
                    taking into account the letter from Zhinka ZPR FOR Klado (when not him "the dogs were released")
                    Or will you continue to carry ACHINA that the zhinka "on her own initiative" ("stupidity", etc.) wrote it?
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 04
                      +4
                      Quote: 2534M
                      Andrey, YOU have "floated" here

                      Yeah. You make 2 statements - about persistent rumors of some kind of conspiracy between Klado and ZPR, then about the fact that "Zhinka went across her husband", but at the same time you did not provide ANYTHING in support of your words
                      1. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 11: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        about persistent rumors of some kind of Klado conspiracy

                        about the "Klado conspiracy" - you wrote
                        and it was necessary to think of such a THRESH lol
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        then that "Zhinka went across her husband", but at the same time they did not provide ANYTHING in support of their words

                        don't bullshit her hurt
                        at least there is an OFFICIAL POSITION (by the way, largely formed by Zinovy)
                        and the fact that Clado went across her was obvious
                        and here the Zhinka of one of the first persons of the RIF stands for a "dissenting subject" - which is FACT, but your statements that she did it "after she got up on the wrong foot" - to put it mildly
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 13: 08
                        +3
                        Quote: 2534M
                        about the "Klado conspiracy" - you wrote

                        I wrote
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        b persistent rumors of some kind of conspiracy between Klado and ZPR,

                        this is how I described your
                        Quote: 2534M
                        persistent rumors circulating among the officers of the squadron that the famous articles of Klado were the intrigues of Rozhestvensky himself (through his wife).

                        What am I wrong? :)))
                        Quote: 2534M
                        at least there is an OFFICIAL POSITION (by the way, largely formed by Zinovy)
                        and the fact that Clado went across her was obvious

                        crying fool
                        Maxim, THIS I don't even know how to comment. Don't you know that the tasks of the 2TOE before her departure were the same, and after - completely different? And that Rozhestvensky undertook to lead the squadron to help the 1TOE, and not at all "to achieve domination at sea with the available force", as was ordered to him (already on the way) by the Admiralty?
                        Quote: 2534M
                        and the fact that Clado went across her was obvious
                        and here the Zhinka of one of the first persons of the RIF stands for a "dissenting subject" - which is FACT, but your statements that she did it "after she got up on the wrong foot" - to put it mildly

                        Firstly, you twist, banally chatting up the question and moving from one to another. Secondly, nonsense is your conspiracy theories.
                        Before the exit of 2TOE, it was assumed that it would connect with 1TOE. It can be assumed that someone allowed the death of 1TOE, but with losses for the Japanese fleet.
                        But a situation arose when 2TOE was on the way, but 1TOE was not, and the Japanese fleet was not injured. This is no longer an official position, this is a NEW situation in which it was necessary to make different decisions. EXCELLENT from all official positions to the departure of the squadron
                        In general, in itself, Clado's speech boiled down to 2 main theses
                        1) that 2TOE is unable to independently master the sea
                        2) That in order to be able, she urgently needs to send all the reinforcements that can be sent.
                        Rozhdestvensky believed
                        1) that 2TOE is unable to seize the sea on its own, which was reported by the authority
                        2) That the maximum that he can is to pass with the best ships to Vladivostok, from where he will act on the enemy's communications, which is why he does not need to send all junk
                        To pick out some kind of intrigue from these FACTS about the fact that Rozhestvensky, with the help of Klado, was going to return 2TOE back ... This is not even nonsense. I don't know how to characterize this at all.
                      3. 2534M
                        2534M 17 February 2021 13: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Don't you know that the tasks of the 2TOE before her departure were the same, and after - completely different?

                        ah-ah, and the naive student Zinovy ​​"simply did not suspect" how it would end for PTE
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 17 February 2021 13: 03
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Maksim

            Maksim?
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 59
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        with his bunch of wildest blunders and unconfirmed conclusions from scratch.

        waiting for your monograph ... hi
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 17 February 2021 11: 59
    +2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    with the forces at my disposal, I have no hope of restoring the prevailing position at sea.

    He has 6 EBRs with the latest artillery against 4x at Togo, 2 more EBRs with 12dm guns, Nakhimov with 6 * 8dm on board and 2 BRKR in Vladik ...
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 20 February 2021 09: 41
      0
      Quote: DrEng527
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      with the forces at my disposal, I have no hope of restoring the prevailing position at sea.

      He has 6 EBRs with the latest artillery against 4x at Togo, 2 more EBRs with 12dm guns, Nakhimov with 6 * 8dm on board and 2 BRKR in Vladik ...

      Apparently the king felt the same way
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 20 February 2021 13: 49
        0
        [quote = Pilat2009] Obviously the king thought the same [/ quote]
        it's math, but it takes good performers to do it ... [quote = Pilat2009]
  • Andy
    Andy 17 February 2021 08: 03
    +1
    very informative comment. thanks for the valuable information
  • aars
    aars 17 February 2021 06: 46
    +3
    The articles of which, it seems to me, aroused only anger and malice in Zinovy, like any professional's opinion of an amateur.
    Actually, Klado was a sailor, professional and hereditary ...

    It's not clear if Rozhestvensky saw, considered the situation hopeless - why didn't he divide the squadron into parts, sending it along different routes?
    Most of it would still have reached Vladivostok, certainly more than one ship, as it happened in fact.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 07: 52
      +4
      Quote: aars
      Vladivostok, certainly not one ship, as it happened in fact.

      Three - all showed an "unreasonable" initiative.
      Sorry for the Emerald, it was ruined by "stupidity".
    2. Roman81
      17 February 2021 11: 29
      +2
      Not one, but three, a lot more interned. This is HOW divided? Knowingly gave the order to kill a part of the fleet in order to escape from the macaques? End of service and trial
      1. aars
        aars 17 February 2021 11: 37
        +1
        So he already had the end of his service, trial, shame ...
        He considered it macaques, but he turned out to be a bat macaque himself.
        PS: only one "Diamond" came to Vladivostok, if I remember correctly.
        1. Roman81
          17 February 2021 16: 49
          0
          ..and two destroyers. One transport returned to Libau, for example, there were internees
          1. aars
            aars 17 February 2021 16: 50
            0
            Yes, you are right, I forgot the destroyers ...
            1. Roman81
              17 February 2021 17: 32
              0
              meanwhile they are stronger than Diamond. Yes, and the Emerald broke through, what Fersen learned it already in Russia
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 07: 45
    +7
    It was from him that they made the ideal scapegoat for the bureaucracy and the complete military-political failure of the government.

    Undoubtedly.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 08: 02
      +2
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      It was from him that they made the ideal scapegoat for the bureaucracy and the complete military-political failure of the government.

      Undoubtedly.

      Andrey greetings, but have you seen a differently working system, where people are appointed competent "but toothy", and not "convenient to the bosses"? I'm afraid not! So "live with wolves, howl like a wolf!" Generals "frost" and colonel "mud" in the southern latitudes were not, so "Zinovy" poured everything on "his subordinates" and "ships", and still did not forget the "revolution"!
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 08: 04
        +6
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Generals "frost" and colonel "mud" in the southern sea latitudes were not, so "Zinovy" poured everything on "his subordinates" and "ships", and still did not forget the "revolution"!

        He did not throw anything and anywhere. What you are reading now is private correspondence, not intended for outsiders. And yes, show me where and what he blamed on subordinates
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 17 February 2021 08: 15
          +3
          Hello Andrey!
          In connection with the unfolding controversy, I had a question: could Rozhestvensky refuse to be assigned to the squadron?
          1. 2534M
            2534M 17 February 2021 09: 23
            0
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            In connection with the unfolding controversy, I had a question: could Rozhestvensky refuse to be assigned to the squadron?

            taking into account how he "put his tail" in front of H2 - it was easier for him to make a sepuku
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 09: 37
            +7
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            In connection with the unfolding controversy, I had a question: could Rozhestvensky refuse to be assigned to the squadron?

            I could. But at the time of her sending, there was no point in it. Nobody knew that 1TOE would suffocate in Arthur without causing any harm to the Japanese fleet, no one knew that Nikolai would refuse to use a suitable squadron as an argument in negotiations, and, most importantly, Rozhestvensky could not guess that he would eventually be given the task of seizing the sea power 2TOE
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Kwas
              Kwas 17 February 2021 15: 29
              +3
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I could. But at the time of her sending, there was no point in it. Nobody knew,

              He could refuse at any time before the fight. "I won't, that's all! If you want - shoot, if you want - shoot!" But this requires something called civic courage. Senyavin, Zhukov or Rokossovsky could have done this. But alas, not Rozhdestvensky.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 16: 06
                +3
                Quote: Kwas
                He could refuse at any time before the fight. "I won't, that's all! If you want - shoot, if you want - shoot!" But it takes something called civic courage

                This requires an afterthought - the understanding that the entire squadron will die. And Rozhestvensky had no reason to think so. Focusing on the fight in the ZhM, he believed that he would be able to get to Vladivostok "with the loss of several ships." And they do not shy away from this in the "if you want - shoot" style.
                1. Roman81
                  17 February 2021 17: 02
                  +3
                  Fairness for - From the shores of Vietnam, he could for health, and then sit in the tribunal and judge Nebogatov or Enquist. Conscience did not allow, there were sores
                2. rytik32
                  rytik32 18 February 2021 11: 02
                  +2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Focusing on the battle in the ZhM, he believed that he would be able to get to Vladivostok "with the loss of several ships"

                  This is a common mistake. "Generals are preparing for the last war."
                  Rozhestvensky drew the wrong conclusions from the battle in WM and thought that the Japanese would behave the same way as in WM.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 February 2021 12: 04
                    +1
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Rozhestvensky drew the wrong conclusions from the battle in WM and thought that the Japanese would behave the same way as in WM.

                    So they behaved like this - when they realized that dancing at a long distance did not give anything, they went into a clinch. The question is solely in the means of destruction ... And, yes, but the war was the same :))))
                3. Kwas
                  Kwas 18 February 2021 12: 40
                  +3
                  Judging by his whining, given in the article, he, at least towards the end of the campaign, clearly waited and believed in a great defeat. I will also add that it is the closest people who most often lie in order to be in the most advantageous light before them.
              2. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 20 February 2021 09: 50
                -1
                Quote: Kwas
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I could. But at the time of her sending, there was no point in it. Nobody knew,

                He could refuse at any time before the fight. "I won't, that's all! If you want - shoot, if you want - shoot!" But this requires something called civic courage. Senyavin, Zhukov or Rokossovsky could have done this. But alas, not Rozhdestvensky.

                You confuse duty with stubbornness. There is such a word NECESSARY. As a result, all the admirals found excuses, and made Rozhdestvensky the last. Tell me, could Villeneuve abandon Trafalgar? Or another example, Stalin did not allow the withdrawal of troops from Kiev, although he was warned of the consequences, so that the front commander had to resign?
          3. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 17 February 2021 20: 41
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            In connection with the unfolding controversy, I had a question: could Rozhestvensky refuse to be assigned to the squadron?

            Well, you give it .. Yes, Rozhestvensky, with his hands and feet, clung to this appointment, diligently pushing Skrydlov out of the 2nd TOE, who was supposed to lead her. And the goal is on the surface, ahead of schedule I wanted to get a full admiral. And I got it! Upfront for future victories.

            But in Madagascar, when I suddenly realized that P.A. he did not wait for him and now he will have to really fight - he really tried to refuse. But here already Nicholas II could not allow this. Otherwise, the loss of face in full growth, Nick-II personally pushed him through.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 17 February 2021 21: 15
              +7
              Well you give ..
              I am not "well, give", I am trying to understand a topic with which I am familiar only superficially. Is it shameful?
              In turn, competently, I am ready to discuss with you the questions of justice of the French kingdom of the second half of the XlV century.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 17 February 2021 21: 26
                +3
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                In turn, competently, I am ready to discuss with you the questions of justice of the French kingdom of the second half of the XlV century.

                And here I already, honestly and sincerely, immediately pass. drinks
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 17 February 2021 21: 32
                  +5
                  Well, you see. It's not a shame not to know, it's a shame not to want to know. Is not it?
              2. Kwas
                Kwas 18 February 2021 12: 13
                +2
                O Dumas, Huguenot wars, books read to the holes, the memory of youth! Damn interesting topic, where he lied, etc. Not planning an article?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 February 2021 12: 29
                  +2
                  My compliments, Constantine!
                  I plan, but I don’t know when I will. Meanwhile, Dumas has nothing to do with the 14th century, rather Druon.
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 18 February 2021 13: 03
                    +2
                    Oh shit! Not so read, XVI all the time XIV. Yes, Druon. But by the way, in a nutshell, he insisted that he tried to be documentary. How do you think he succeeded? And again, did he lie, for example, describing Edward II?
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 18 February 2021 13: 19
                      +3
                      In my opinion, Druon quite accurately adhered to the main outline of historical events, without falling into the heresy of conspiracy, which the same Pikul sometimes sinned. However, I read "The Cursed Kings" at the dawn of his youth. As for the accuracy of the description of everyday trifles, we will leave it on the conscience of the fiction writer, for they were formed in accordance with the general ideas of that time about the high Middle Ages.
                      1. Kwas
                        Kwas 18 February 2021 13: 27
                        +2
                        I asked why - he described Edward's "non-traditional sexual orientation" so vividly that after reading it there was no doubt, but recently Klim Zhukov said that he was simply slandered retroactively, there were no documents on this topic, and it was impossible to hide it. In principle, of course, to hell with him, with Edward, but as a characteristic of Druon.
            2. Roman81
              18 February 2021 21: 53
              0
              Skrydlov was a fleet commander in Vladivostok. He could not lead her
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 19 February 2021 21: 37
                0
                Quote: Roman81
                Skrydlov was a fleet commander in Vladivostok. He could not lead her

                And before that he was the commander of the Black Sea Fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 08: 28
          +4
          Dear Andrey, there are a lot of factors in the “Tsushima defeat” that could lead to the defeat of our squadron. By the way, even if we ignore the battle itself, the omissions were literally everywhere from "moisture in shells" to "formation of crews." However, having taken the blame during the trial, he did not forget to note the miscalculations of his subordinates. Its essence is revealed in the above correspondence.
          If the entrusted ships "crowded together like a flock of rams", then this flock is headed by a "sheep"!
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 17 February 2021 09: 15
            +6
            Kote pane Kohanka, do you take into account the actions of the enemy? In take into account the fact that often you act as the enemy allows you and you cannot act otherwise than it is banal to endure. Everyone understands that 2TOE was practically everything that was collected in the Baltic. And so heterogeneous that I still wonder how they marched more or less in formation. Who takes into account the technical condition of each ship separately? And it is also surprising how the ancient "Kornilov" with "Memory of Azov" managed not to send to smash the Japs.
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk, in his analysis of the Tsushima tragedy, as far as possible, objectively laid out all the nuances of managing the squadron of the "stupid" ZPR at Tsushima. And given the task, the maximum that could be counted on was to go to Vladik with losses, and then on condition that the Japanese allowed it. The Japanese were not allowed. The bottom line. Rozhdestvensky is to blame. Not those who set tasks in their offices, but the one who met with the enemy, who set himself achievable goals. Therefore, it is not surprising that 9 knots is the maximum for the task of "smashing the Japanese with everyone and mastering the sea." So this whole hodgepodge went on as best it could .... And whatever they say, the Japanese had a tactical advantage in squadron speed, and this is a trump card.
            Now you can play as much as you want, sitting on the couch ... But in reality, RI lost at the planning stage, when it decided that the war would begin no earlier than 1905, when it would be possible to collect what was planned in the Far East. And the Japanese decided to start earlier and simply smashed the inert Russians piece by piece. That's all. So ZPR did everything he could in the conditions in which he was driven. The Japanese simply were faster and went for broke ... Here you have PA and Tsushima. request
            1. 2534M
              2534M 17 February 2021 09: 34
              -3
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Andrey from Chelyabinsk, in his analysis of the Tsushima tragedy, as far as possible, objectively laid out all the nuances of managing the squadron of the "stupid" ZPR at Tsushima

              Andrey Zinovia OVERCOME
              and unsuccessfully
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Everyone understands that 2TOE was practically everything that was collected in the Baltic. And so heterogeneous that I still wonder how they marched more or less in formation. Who takes into account the technical condition of each ship separately?

              And Zinovy ​​"all in white"? Had nothing to do with this?
              Or maybe we recall his "actions" (very strange) as a result of which "Oslyabya" and "Aurora" did not get to Arthur BEFORE THE WAR?
              etc.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              RI lost at the planning stage

              WOW !!!! AND WHOM was the "lamb" Zinovy? AND?
              Quote: Rurikovich
              when she decided that the war would begin no earlier than 1905

              It was clear to all sane that it would be BEFORE
              see "special meeting" and INITIAL plans to strengthen DV ...
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 10: 47
              +6
              Quote: Rurikovich
              And given the task, the maximum that could be counted on was to go to Vladik with losses, and then on condition that the Japanese allowed it.

              Rurikovich, stupid question for how much from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok did the ships of the Volunteer Fleet reach?
              How long was the Second Baltic Squadron?
              You can continue further, but the conclusion is one rotten system and at least an uninitiated admiral, who successfully fit into this structure and considered himself in his place! All of this together equals Tsushima!
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 17 February 2021 10: 58
                +2
                Do not equate the transition of a group of motley warships with the transitions of single transports that are built for such transitions. Do not forget about the logistics of supply, about the counteraction of interested third parties (states). There are a lot of nuances in this matter and you shouldn't be so categorical, especially after the fact and sitting on the couch wink smile PS Everyone is smart in hindsight
                1. The comment was deleted.
            3. DrEng527
              DrEng527 17 February 2021 12: 04
              0
              Quote: Rurikovich
              And so heterogeneous

              is it 4 EBR of the same type? request
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 17 February 2021 12: 24
                0
                Hmmm ..... in 3 armored detachments there were 11 battleships of 6 types. 6 cruisers (we don't count "Almaz" - in fact a yacht) were 6 types ...wink Moral - learn materiel
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 17 February 2021 13: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  Moral - learn materiel

                  Pay the thought to yourself! bully The main forces of 2TOE are 4 of the same type of Borodino! The Japanese have only 4 EBRs, with 3 types ... hi
                  1. Rurikovich
                    Rurikovich 17 February 2021 15: 24
                    -1
                    From the Baltic, only 4 "Borodino" went ?? We are talking about the transition and the composition of the squadron as a whole
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 17 February 2021 15: 48
                      +1
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      From the Baltic, only 4 "Borodino" went?

                      Quote: DrEng527
                      The main forces of 2TOE are 4 borodinoes of the same type!

                      do you dispute my thesis?
                      1. Rurikovich
                        Rurikovich 17 February 2021 16: 01
                        0
                        For the stubborn - 2TOE consisted only of 4 "Borodino" ???
                        Thesis ... laughing Here periodically "comrades" come across with an application for exclusivity and it already seems to me that another unique one has appeared ... what lol
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 17 February 2021 16: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        For the stubborn

                        are you about yourself? bully
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        2TOE consisted only of 4 "Borodino" ???

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        The main forces of 2TOE are 4 borodinoes of the same type!

                        maybe it will ... wink
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        and it already seems to me

                        be baptized better bully
                2. Kwas
                  Kwas 17 February 2021 16: 41
                  0
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  The main forces of 2TOE are 4 of the same type of Borodino! The Japanese have only 4 EBRs, with 3 types ...

                  This is true, but the opposite is true for armored cruisers. We can say that there was nothing to oppose to Kamimura. Except that adding Oslyabya to the cruising squadron is not enough.
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 17 February 2021 16: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Kwas
                    ... We can say that there was nothing to oppose Kamimura

                    EBR: IN1, Navarin, BRKR Nikhimov, 3 BBO ... and if ZPR thought a little and worked, then 2 Ruriks ... repeat
                    1. Kwas
                      Kwas 18 February 2021 12: 18
                      +1
                      Well, they are all significantly slower, that is, only to fight back. The only tactic is seen, they walk quietly, and the fast battleships circle around, fending off threats of head coverage.
                    2. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 18 February 2021 12: 58
                      +1
                      Quote: Kwas
                      that is, just fight back.

                      but against 8 dm of Kamimura they have 6 * 12 dm for EBR and 11 * 10 dm for BBO request
                      Experience has shown that 12 dm EBR IN1 turned out to be quite effective ... wink
                    3. mmaxx
                      mmaxx 23 February 2021 07: 52
                      +2
                      This thought constantly sits with me. As the most obvious. Slow walkers go straight. You just can't take them - they are armadillos. And "fast" battleships, as the main force, can maneuver taking into account the needs of the battle. Have a move slightly less than Japanese. And thus deprive the Japanese of the initiative in battle. Cruisers are what connects these two squads. Not a convoy around transports.
                      Howling civilian fantasies. But the ZPR despised his subordinates so much that he did not even lay down their possibility of independent actions. All in the herd and forward. During the entire campaign, he did not have enough intelligence to understand that such a mass of ships could not be properly controlled. All that was enough for him was to establish a squadron course of 9 knots.
                    4. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 23 February 2021 19: 09
                      0
                      Quote: mmaxx
                      During the entire campaign, he did not have enough intelligence to understand that such a mass of ships could not be properly controlled.

                      And there is. The extremely negative attitude of his officers towards the commander is especially striking. That he diligently and supported with his antics and contemptuous nicknames to every single captain of the squadron. Without any jokes, the officers expected that he would be grasping anyone with his teeth. The opinion about its inadequacy started from Revel.
            4. Roman81
              17 February 2021 16: 50
              0
              strictly speaking - two. And that "dad" of the following. The British for unification were superior to Russia by a head, if not by two
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 15: 34
            +2
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Hmmm ..... in 3 armored detachments there were 11 battleships of 6 types. 6 cruisers (we don't count "Almaz" - in fact a yacht) were 6 types ...wink Moral - learn materiel

            Svetlana was also built by the yacht, which did not prevent her from going to the bottom as a hero!
            In the years of the Great Patriotic War, a diamond dragged 4 - 130 mm guns and several hundred mines! A fairly sharp-toothed boat, albeit not Novik, but with proper armament, it could snap. The only trouble is that the Red Warriors saw point-blank and did not notice the rear admirals of the retinue.
            Well, the last thing, within a month since the beginning of the war, there was an opportunity to pull out from the Baltic: 3 EBRs of the Borodino type, 1 EBRs - Navarin, 1 EBRs - Simoy Veliky, 1 - half EBRs or an armored cruiser (whatever you like) Oslyaby, 1-rank cruisers - Oleg , Aurora, Svetlana, rank 2 - Emerald, Pearl, Diamond plus 5 auxiliary cruisers! Was that enough before the siege of Port Arthur began? A detachment of Vladivostok cruisers, and these are three armored cruisers (Russia, Thunderbolt and Rurik) and one armored deck (Bogatyr), could meet the minimum.
            All that was needed was to deliver a powerful punitive radio station to Port Arthur! Would have done it in two weeks! There was no will and initiative, we "cried" .....
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 17 February 2021 15: 51
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              oly and initiative were not we "cried" .....

              exactly! and did not even have plans on how to act with the outbreak of the war ...
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Oslyabya, cruisers of the 1st rank - ....., Aurora,

              these were generally halfway there - what prevented them from being sent to Vladik without the MN? A detachment from Oslyabi and 3 Ruriks would force Togo to separate 6 aces ...
            2. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 17 February 2021 15: 55
              +1
              "Svetlana" carried at least 6 "guns in contrast to 6 - 76mm" Almaz ".
              And let me remind you once again - after the fact, everyone is smart
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 16: 01
                +1
                Quote: Rurikovich
                "Svetlana" carried at least 6 "guns in contrast to 6 - 76mm" Almaz ".
                And let me remind you once again - after the fact, everyone is smart

                And he could drag at least 6-120mm, if not 4-152mm and 4-120mm.
                Essentially, the captain of Almaz dragged his cruiser with 76mm "bullets" to Vladik, and Zinovy ​​Batkovich brought the fan fleet to the bottom!
            3. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 17 February 2021 16: 16
              +2
              Uh-huh, only if the "Russia" of the 1917 model was in battle on 1.08.1904/8/8, then the Japanese would notably have raked them off. After all, they managed to shove XNUMX -XNUMX "there. wink
              "Almaz" went with what was originally designed. Therefore, it was at the time of Tsushima that its combat value was at the level of an auxiliary cruiser. And then the armed steamers were more solidly armed. For the hundredth time - after the fact, everyone is smart ...
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 16: 23
                +3
                Quote: Rurikovich
                For the hundredth time - after the fact, everyone is smart ...

                Yes, I know all this, but the ability to fight is the ability to calculate the situation, capabilities, resources and aspirations of the enemy.
                1. Roman81
                  17 February 2021 16: 52
                  0
                  There were no guns. For VSPKR all over the world they bought
                2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 17: 12
                  +2
                  Quote: Roman81
                  There were no guns. For VSPKR all over the world they bought

                  Were on the ships of the Black Sea Fleet. It was possible to negotiate with France or with Germany. They did nothing, our priority was "Ballet" and "Ballerinas" with a capital letter, and not artillery. In the First World War it all happened again !!!
                3. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 17 February 2021 19: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Were on the ships of the Black Sea Fleet. It was possible to negotiate with France or Germany.

                  Look at the VSKR guns zoo. This is everything that we actually managed to buy around the world.
                4. Roman81
                  17 February 2021 19: 58
                  +2
                  Could not. It is easy in the intestines, in life, even for repairs, funds were not immediately knocked out. The army and the navy fought, but not Petersburg
                5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 21: 04
                  +2
                  Quote: Roman81
                  The army and the navy fought, but not Petersburg

                  I agree with this thesis Roman!
          3. DrEng527
            DrEng527 17 February 2021 16: 55
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            but the ability to fight is the ability to calculate the situation, capabilities, resources and aspirations of the enemy.

            and also exploit its weaknesses and mistakes! Togo was supposed to be held by 3 straits, and the ZPR did not even bother to confuse it a little request
          4. Roman81
            17 February 2021 22: 39
            0
            He kept it in Mozampo. He was almost stumped and so almost put, Togo was seriously going to rush to the North
          5. DrEng527
            DrEng527 18 February 2021 11: 33
            0
            Quote: Roman81
            He was almost stumped and so almost put, Togo was seriously going to rush to the North

            Namely, what prevented the ZPR from sending a detachment of empty TR and armored frigates. so that they make noise at Sangarsky by night 13? wink
          6. Roman81
            18 February 2021 21: 55
            0
            Maybe the fact that transports and armored frigates would have stayed there and up to 1500 people with them? So then we didn't fight
          7. DrEng527
            DrEng527 19 February 2021 13: 00
            0
            Quote: Roman81
            Maybe the fact that transports and armored frigates would have stayed there and up to 1500 people with them? So then we didn't fight

            1) why would they stay there? Until Togo comes, they have already fled ...
            2) How the ZPR fought is evident - with the TR in the order ...
          8. Roman81
            21 February 2021 09: 43
            0
            1.From a huge number of Japanese cruisers. For two old men with a maximum speed of 13 knots, Matsushim would be enough

            2. There was no TR in the convoy, BBO slowed down
          9. DrEng527
            DrEng527 21 February 2021 16: 43
            0
            Quote: Roman81
            two old men with a maximum speed of 13 knots would have been enough for Matsushim

            You shouldn't have heard - I was talking about the demonstration!
      2. mmaxx
        mmaxx 23 February 2021 07: 54
        0
        So they stayed so. Toka at Tsushima.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 17 February 2021 16: 34
    +3
    Your arguments are weighty, but
    Quote: Rurikovich
    And no matter what they say, the Japanese had a tactical advantage in squadron speed, and this is the ace of trump.

    You can argue here. Who prevented the use of the new battleships as a separate high-speed detachment? Who prevented the selection of a high-speed cruising detachment? Finally, who prevented from separating the transports in advance, or even sacrificing them during the battle?
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 17 February 2021 16: 56
      +2
      Quote: Kwas
      or even sacrifice them during the battle?

      what for? there are important cargoes - why not send them around Japan guarded by armored frigates? At the same time, arrange a demonstration at Sangarsky, so that Togo jerks ... bully
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 09: 50
    +3
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    By the way, even if we discard the battle itself, the omissions were literally everywhere from the "moisture in the shells"

    Which was not :))))
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    before "formation of crews"

    What's wrong with them? :)))))
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    However, having taken the blame during the trial, he did not forget to note the miscalculations of his subordinates.

    Let's just say, not miscalculations, but the real state of the squadron. For example, pointing out that "the ships fired poorly" immediately indicates that "due to the lack of combat supplies, the officers could not exercise fire control." And as regards supplies, he points out that “the Naval Ministry could answer with sufficient accuracy the question of whether it was possible to additionally supply the second squadron with combat supplies for practice in shooting while sailing and indicate what was done for this.
    I was promised to send after the Irtysh transport ammunition supplies for training in shooting, but after the squadron left the Baltic Sea, the supplies received from the factories received a different purpose. "
    If Rozhestvensky speaks of a decline in fighting spirit, then he indicates that such happened during the downtime of the squadron, but the spirit was "pulled up" during the transitions, etc.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    If the entrusted ships "crowded together like a flock of rams", then this flock is headed by a "sheep"!

    And many admirals, less than a month after the sailing of an unsaved squadron to the sea, would teach it all types of maneuvering, including the night move? :)))))
    1. 2534M
      2534M 17 February 2021 10: 12
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And many admirals, less than a month after the sailing of an unsaved squadron to the sea, would teach it all types of maneuvering, including the night move? :)))))

      LOT
      Soviet (post-war)
      a month is a LOT
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 32
        +1
        Quote: 2534M
        a month is a LOT

        Maxim, you don't understand what you are writing from the word "in general". What does the post-war admirals have to do with them, who used completely different equipment? You don’t understand the difference between the Project 68 cruiser and the Borodino EDR? And then to say - in a month - they would not have taught.
        1. 2534M
          2534M 17 February 2021 10: 38
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You don’t understand the difference between the Project 68 cruiser and the Borodino EDR? And that is to say - in a month - they would not have taught.

          I understand the difference between "chewing snot" and "hatching eggs" and NORMAL COMBAT TRAINING
          as for the "generations of technology", then how to look
          for example, low-resource high-speed diesel engines are in fact much more problematic than steam engines and boilers of ships at the turn of the 20th century
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 48
            +3
            Quote: 2534M
            I understand the difference between "chewing snot" and "hatching eggs" and NORMAL COMBAT TRAINING

            Well, first study how it was carried out at Rozhdestvensky
            1. 2534M
              2534M 17 February 2021 11: 47
              -2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Well, first study how it was carried out at Rozhdestvensky

              I already wrote that I STUDIED
              I have to breed detailed discus now STUPID NO TIME
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 17 February 2021 16: 44
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And many admirals, less than a month after the sailing of an unsaved squadron to the sea, would teach it all types of maneuvering, including the night move? :)))))

      That's why they lost each other at night after the battle! (Except Nebogatov)
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 17 February 2021 13: 06
    0
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    "Moisture in shells"

    Shaw again?
    Or was it sarcasm?
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    "Formation of crews".

    What's wrong with that?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 15: 39
      0
      About the quality of our ammunition from the EBR Glory report! From Andrey's articles on VO on hit assessment.

      For the crews, read not excerpts from the letters of the "hero", but "letters of the hero" and the protocol at the trial, where he listed the reasons for the defeat!
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 17 February 2021 21: 17
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        About the quality of our ammunition from the EBR Glory report!

        I hesitate to ask, "Glory" has something to do with it?
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        From Andrey's articles on VO on hit assessment.

        I read them, and for as long as I can remember, he debunked the myth of "excessive humidity".
        Or was it sarcasm after all, but I didn't understand?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 February 2021 21: 42
          +2
          Read Dotsenko. As an assistant professor at the Naval Academy, he is more advanced in this matter.
          As for Andrei, we will assume that he tried to debunk the myth about the low quality of our shells, but he did not convince the exchange personally.
          In addition, after a series of articles about damage from our ships, PTE and VTE - the Japanese squadron. I even more believed in the low quality of our ammunition at VTE in comparison with PTE.
          Now according to Slava, according to archival data, he received the same shells as VTE. Perepetii 1905-07 allowed me to see the results of my shooting. The conclusions about their low quality were unambiguous, what else is needed?
          If you believe Andrey, that the quality of our ammunition was equal to that of the Japanese, then the fault of the ZR is even more aggravated.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 18 February 2021 10: 51
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Now according to Slava, according to archival data, he received the same shells as VTE. Perepetii 1905-07 allowed me to look at the results of my shooting.

            Are you hinting at Sveaborg for an hour? wink
            So "Slava" did not shoot at the fortress - she loaded coal and joined the detachment later. Tsesarevich worked on Sveaborg (31 shells with a caliber of 305 mm and 215 shells of 152 mm).
            1. Roman81
              18 February 2021 21: 56
              +1
              And on Caesar, the shells were improperly stored
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 18 February 2021 11: 00
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            If you believe Andrey, that the quality of our ammunition was equal to that of the Japanese, then the fault of the ZR is even more aggravated.

            Quite the opposite. I mean, Andrey convincingly proved that the quality of the Russian shells was unsatisfactory.
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Now according to Slava, according to archival data, he received the same shells as VTE. Perepetii 1905-07 allowed me to see the results of my shooting. The conclusions about their low quality were unambiguous, what else is needed?

            Only that "Slava" did not participate in the shelling of Sveaborg, but was at that time at anchor at Elrond. The fire was led by "Tsesarevich" and "Bogatyr", Allah knows with what shells. Maybe they stayed from the first squadron, maybe they got new ones in the Baltic.
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            I came to believe even more, the low quality of our ammunition at VTE in comparison with PTE.

            It is not a matter of faith. The fact that the Russian shells were inferior to the Japanese is obvious. But the problem is not in the waterlogging of the explosive, but in its small amount.
            Let's assume that we simply did not understand each other.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 18 February 2021 22: 39
              +2
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              It is not a matter of faith. The fact that the Russian shells were inferior to the Japanese is obvious.

              Not obvious. When the Japanese got into problems, they delivered no less. But for some reason they didn't get it .. They forgot how to shoot in three months of boredom near Madagascar, probably .. wassat
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 19 February 2021 09: 33
                0
                Quote: Saxahorse
                When the Japanese got into trouble, they delivered no less.

                Yeah, the carpenters got tired of cutting out the plugs.
            2. rytik32
              rytik32 18 February 2021 23: 23
              +1
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              it is obvious that the Russian shells were inferior to the Japanese. But the problem is not in the waterlogged explosives, but in its small amount.

              Who is obvious?
              The British doubted until after WWI they carried out large-scale shootings of German ships (from battleship to destroyers).
              So that's it. The conclusion is unambiguous: NOT (an analogue of the Japanese RYAV landmines) turned out to be worse than semi-armor-piercing shells (the Russian RYAV shells were closer to them) even against unarmored ships!
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 19 February 2021 09: 37
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                until after WWI they carried out large-scale shootings of German ships

                Did they shoot them with Russian lightweight shells of the 1891 model? But!
                Sorry, but the English and Russian shells only have a common name. Completely different concepts (projectile weight / muzzle velocity), explosive type, fuse design ... where are they close?
              2. rytik32
                rytik32 19 February 2021 11: 23
                +1
                The question is not the weight of the projectile or the explosives, but what kind of fuse, i.e. where is the explosion.

                Let me remind you of the key differences:
                NOT (land mine) - thin walls, lots of explosives, instant fuse. Explosion at the barrier.
                Common (semi-armor-piercing). Medium walls, medium explosives, fuse with a small delay. Explosion behind the barrier.
                ARS (armor-piercing). Thick walls, few explosives, fuse with a long delay.
                Of course, not all shells fit perfectly according to these criteria ... but this is not the main thing.
                We had armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing shells. And one of the best in the world at that time. According to this classification, there was no landmine at all. And he was not needed, as later experiments proved.
                The Japanese had a land mine. Very powerful, but with a whole bunch of problems. And not semi-armor-piercing, tk. he had practically no chance of penetrating the armor.
              3. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 19 February 2021 11: 41
                +1
                Quote: rytik32
                It's not the weight of the projectile or the explosives

                Come on!
                That is, a projectile with one and a half kilograms of explosive (for example) can inflict the same damage as with 15? Or does size matter?
                Quote: rytik32
                and some of the best in the world at that time.

                I mean, the others are even worse? Backhanded compliment.
              4. rytik32
                rytik32 19 February 2021 12: 25
                +1
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Come on!
                That is, a projectile with one and a half kilograms of explosive (for example) can inflict the same damage as with 15? Or does size matter?

                If the projectile cannot penetrate the armor, then it is not a big difference whether 5 kg or 15 kg will explode behind the armor.
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                I mean, the others are even worse? Backhanded compliment.

                This is a fact of the development of shells at that time.

                I can't say for everyone - you have to dive, but the British shells then were clearly worse than ours, if we compare APC with armor-piercing, and Common with our land mine.
                The French are clearly worse. If interested, I can describe in more detail how.
                The Americans have not yet switched over with "normal" shells.
                Ours tested batches of 12 dm shells fired for 406 mm armor, and 6 dm for 254 mm armor.
              5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 February 2021 14: 07
                +1
                Quote: rytik32
                If the projectile cannot penetrate the armor, then it is not a big difference whether 5 kg or 15 kg will explode behind the armor.

                As Tsushima showed - very large. The same centralized fire control on Suvorov and Orel was knocked out without any armor breaking.
                Quote: rytik32
                I can't say for everyone - you have to dive, but the British shells then were clearly worse than ours, if we compare APC with armor-piercing, and Common with our land mine.

                And why did they suddenly become worse?
                Quote: rytik32
                The French are clearly worse

                The French are clearly better
              6. rytik32
                rytik32 19 February 2021 14: 23
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                As Tsushima showed - very large. The same centralized fire control on Suvorov and Orel was knocked out without any armor breaking.

                Our shells could do it just as well
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And why did they suddenly become worse?

                Are armor piercing and black powder commons better than our shells?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The French are clearly better

                The French.
                Armor breakers with black powder.
                Semi-armor piercing with melinite, but the fuse is bad - it gave an incomplete detonation.
                Land mines with melinite, but cast iron)))
                And the cherry on the cake - all these shells had different weights. Those. change of projectile type - new zeroing.
              7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 February 2021 15: 02
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                Our shells could do it just as well

                Could not. There will be few fragments, the force of the explosion is much less. Our shells usually took out the materiel with a direct hit. In those cases when they were torn in the casemates of the same Mikasa, the guns remained intact.
                Quote: rytik32
                Are armor piercing and black powder commons better than our shells?

                11 kg of black powder is better than 1,5 kg of pyroxylin. In high-explosive there EMNIP up to 48 kg was this very gunpowder. Despite the fact that the 386 kg projectile loses speed more slowly, which is positive for armor penetration.
                Quote: rytik32
                The French.
                Armor breakers with black powder.
                Semi-armor piercing with melinite, but the fuse is bad - it gave an incomplete detonation.
                Land mines with melinite, but cast iron)))

                EMNIP armor-piercing was with melinite too. And the incomplete detonation of melinite was clearly better than the complete detonation of our smokeless gunpowder in landmines.
                Quote: rytik32
                And the cherry on the cake - all these shells had different weights. Those. change of projectile type - new zeroing.

                far from a fact, all the more so - at those battle distances
              8. rytik32
                rytik32 19 February 2021 17: 08
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                There will be few fragments, the force of the explosion is much less. Our shells usually took out the materiel with a direct hit. In those cases when they were torn in the casemates of the same Mikasa, the guns remained intact.

                But what about the 6dm shell hitting Mikasa at 18:26, which destroyed one gun and damaged two more neighboring ones? Is there an example of a 6dm Japanese projectile so effective against artillery?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                11 kg of black powder is better than 1,5 kg of pyroxylin.

                We count for 12 dm of armor piercing. Englishman 11,9 * 0,25 = 2,975 kg in TNT equivalent. Ours is better)))
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Despite the fact that the 386 kg projectile loses speed more slowly, which is positive for armor penetration.

                Only in theory. In practice, the English ARS then could not even penetrate their own diameter due to poor steel. And ours pierced much larger diameter.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                EMNIP armor-piercing were with melinite too

                A little bit later.
              9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 February 2021 17: 57
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                But what about the 6dm shell hitting Mikasa at 18:26, which destroyed one gun and damaged two more neighboring ones?

                The shell destroyed the gun, because it hit its frame :))))) But I don’t remember that 2 more guns were damaged
                Campbell wrote
                The most important of the 6 "hits was the hit received on 18.06/10. The shell hit the embrasure of casemate No. 6 and exploded on the 6" gun frame, knocking it out. One 3 "shell pierced the roof of casemate No. 5, another shell exploded upon hitting the lower coaming of casemate No. 11, displacing the armored joint and incapacitating the servants, although the gun itself was not damaged. The third shell pierced the roof of casemate No. XNUMX without damaging the gun. ...

                And I don’t remember a source that indicated that hitting casemate # 2 damaged 3 guns. I don’t understand at all how this could have been done - in the casemate.
                But even if this is so, where is the guarantee that this projectile was of a new type?
                Quote: rytik32
                We count for 12 dm of armor piercing. Englishman 11,9 * 0,25 = 2,975 kg in TNT equivalent. Ours is better)))

                Very loose use of sources. TNT equivalent of black powder is shown very differently, for example, there is a value of 0,45 (ideal), etc. But I'm wondering, do you think the TNT equivalent of pyroxylin is almost 2? :))))))))
                Quote: rytik32
                Only in theory. In practice, the English ARS then could not even penetrate their own diameter due to poor steel. And ours pierced much larger diameter.

                Only in theory. In practice in combat - maximum 178 mm
              10. rytik32
                rytik32 19 February 2021 18: 07
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But I don’t remember that 2 more guns were damaged.

                Abo's lectures:
                I want to point out several incidents of damage that occurred on the Mikasa behind the armor protection and was caused by a 6-inch round and shell fragments that exploded outside. In the Tsushima battle, one 6-inch cannon on the main deck battery was completely destroyed by a 6-inch projectile that flew in through a tiny hole in the gun port, and the other two 6-inch guns on the same deck were temporarily disabled, both lost their telescopic sights. for the debris that entered the ports


                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Only in theory.

                You should not call the theory of acceptance tests of a batch of shells.
              11. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 February 2021 11: 01
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                Abo's lectures:

                We read carefully.
                Quote: rytik32
                I want to point out several cases of damage that occurred on the Mikasa behind the armor protection and was caused by a 6-inch shell and fragments of shells that exploded outside

                That is, damage from more than one projectile is considered
                Quote: rytik32
                and the other two 6-inch guns on the same deck were temporarily disabled, both lost their telescopic sights due to debris entering the ports

                It is more than correct to assume that these were fragments from shells that exploded outside.
                Quote: rytik32
                The shell most likely exploded at the edge of the embrasure and the debris flew sideways into the adjacent embrasures.

                This is geometrically impossible.
                Alexey, we have a lot of hits when the projectile enters the casemate, and the materiel does not damage. And then - exploded on the armor, the fragments flew parallel to the board, changed the trajectory in the area of ​​other casemates by 90 degrees ... ????
                Quote: rytik32
                You should not call the theory of acceptance tests of a batch of shells.

                Still, they were carried out in the same conditions ...
              12. rytik32
                rytik32 20 February 2021 12: 26
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It is more than correct to assume that these were fragments from shells that exploded outside.

                Andrey, you are now taking out the cornerstone from the classic "shell version", namely, it turns out that our land mines:
                1. Exploded on impact on water (with a Brink pipe!).
                2. Gave a decent amount of shards.
              13. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 February 2021 12: 38
                +1
                Quote: rytik32
                Andrey, you are now taking out the cornerstone from the classic "shell version"

                Not:)))
                Quote: rytik32
                namely, it turns out that our land mines:
                1. Exploded on impact on water (with a Brink pipe!).

                Our 305-mm high-explosive shells at the new EBRs were loaded with gunpowder, and it is not clear which tube was on them. Only pyroxylin shells were supplied with Brink.
                The shell that fell at Mikasa could well be of the old model :))))
              14. rytik32
                rytik32 20 February 2021 12: 42
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                it is not clear what kind of tube they were using.

                Baranovsky's pipe.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The shell that fell at Mikasa could well be of the old model :))))

                What do you mean by "old-style shells"?
                Cast iron 1877? So they were at 2 TOE only as training, i.e. with sand and sawdust inside)))
              15. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 February 2021 17: 07
                +1
                Quote: rytik32
                Baranovsky's pipe.

                Maybe. But in fact, everything is unclear there, and I did not find an exact answer.
                Quote: rytik32
                What do you mean by "old-style shells"?

                Shells for old guns.
              16. rytik32
                rytik32 20 February 2021 20: 38
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Shells for old guns.

                The cast iron shells were officially removed from service. So even the old guns most likely fired the same shells as the new ones.
              17. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 February 2021 23: 28
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                So even the old guns most likely fired the same shells as the new ones.

                Most likely, their ammunition was still heavy 152-203-305-mm shells. During construction, ships were equipped with them, in peacetime they were almost never used.
              18. rytik32
                rytik32 21 February 2021 09: 35
                0
                The old shells were officially removed from service in 1901.
                In fact, they were on the BBO until they were sent on a campaign, but still they were replaced. The fact that the old shells remained on the BBO is understandable - they were training artillery ships.
                For 2 TOE, old shells were given as training - also quite logical.
                Well, in the PA, old shells surfaced, but there because of the shell hunger that just didn’t surface, even the Kruppa cannons left over from the Chinese.
              19. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 10: 24
                0
                Quote: rytik32
                The old shells were officially removed from service in 1901.

                Why did "Rurik" shoot them? :))) They were removed from production, but no one would change the ammunition load of old EBRs and cruisers. At least I don't have such data
              20. rytik32
                rytik32 21 February 2021 10: 58
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Why did "Rurik" shoot them? :)))

                Are there any proofs?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                but no one would change the ammunition load of old EBRs and cruisers

                The replacement of ammunition is directly spelled out in the decision of the ITC of November 6, 1901.
            3. mmaxx
              mmaxx 23 February 2021 10: 31
              +1
              No need to scold Krupp's guns. The trunk of one of these lies on the way to the Golden Mountain. The most beautiful and modern thing. 210 mm
  • rytik32
    rytik32 20 February 2021 12: 31
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Alexey, we have a lot of hits when the projectile enters the casemate, and the materiel does not damage.


    And this newest 15-inch "greenboy", hitting the roof of the "Baden" casemate, could not get the 150-mm gun in it out of standing.
    Andrey, can you slander our shells, which were both smaller in caliber and a quarter of a century older?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 00: 41
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    And this newest 15-inch "greenboy", hitting the roof of the "Baden" casemate, could not get the 150-mm gun in it out of standing.

    Definitely not? :))) Let's say that he couldn't. But what does this mean?
    Quote: rytik32
    Andrey, can you slander our shells, which were both smaller in caliber and a quarter of a century older?

    Alexey, don't be tempted by false analogies. We compare the impact of Russian and Japanese shells in Tsushima. And we see that the effect of Russian shells in materiel was negligible. The Japanese ones hit our weapons well, even when they exploded nearby, and therefore were much more effective.
    If we take the British "greenboys", then yes, maybe they would not have disabled the guns, but at the same time they would have inflicted other significant damage, and thus fulfilled their role. Ours did not hit the guns, and ... didn’t hit anything important at all. This is why your analogy is wrong.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 09: 23
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Definitely not? :))) Let's say that he couldn't. But what does this mean?

    Exactly. There are descriptions.
    This suggests that the expectations that our hits on the roof of the casemate should bring the guns in the casemate are not justified.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The Japanese ones hit our weapons well, even when they exploded nearby, and therefore were much more effective.

    Let's take the example of the "Tsarevich" - not a single weapon has been disabled. Where is efficiency here ???
    And if you look at other cases where the number of Japanese hits is amenable to counting, then this "efficiency" disappears somewhere. For interest, take a sample of those who were hit by 10 ... 20 shells and there are good descriptions of these hits: "Sisoy", "Nakhimov", "Oleg", "Aurora". EMNIP only "Nakhimov" has significant losses in artillery.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Ours did not hit the guns, and ... didn’t hit anything important at all. This is why your analogy is wrong.

    Didn't you hit because you didn't hit or because you didn't hit? This is a big difference!
    But in fact:
    1. Could pierce armor and cause flooding? They could!
    2. Could pierce the armor of casemates, towers and withdraw guns? They could!

    This is the damage to Mikasa in the LM on the lower and middle decks. Pay attention to the scattering of shell fragments. 3-4 such hits to the extremity and it is completely flooded. By the way, in the light of our recent conversation about "Asama" I found that her "knee-deep" was flooded average deck aft, i.e. the one below the upper deck, on which the casemates are already located. And, it turns out, just flooded by the waves ...
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 10: 57
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    And if you look at other cases where the number of Japanese hits is amenable to counting, then this "efficiency" disappears somewhere. For interest, take a sample of those who were hit by 10 ... 20 shells and there are good descriptions of these hits: "Sisoy", "Nakhimov", "Oleg", "Aurora".

    Remembering the report of Commander Nakhimov
    Soon after 3 o'clock, a 12 "shell hit the starboard side, broke the anchor spindle, exploded in the bow compartment of the battery deck, distorted everything there, causing a fire, which was quickly extinguished. The explosion of this shell sagged the bow tower, and despite all efforts , fix it, no longer rotated. She remained traversed to starboard. In addition to the withdrawal of the turret, this shell caused significant damage to the cruiser by the large size of the hole he made not high above the waterline; Water poured into the same hole, when the cruiser settled on the bow and was lurching to the starboard side.
    Almost simultaneously with this shell, we received a large shell in the sloped part of the starboard side, which exploded just above the 3rd 6 "gun. Two of the servants were torn to shreds, five were killed on the spot, one was mortally wounded and two lightly. the left cylinder of the compressor was punctured, the gear arc and the rollers of the lifting mechanism were broken; the beds were bent, and as a result of this, the gun could not be moved away from the side to close the port for a long time.Then, when the cruiser got a strong heel from the mine it was necessary to close it up with wood, since the half-porticos, distorted by the explosion, did not close.
    The rest later
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 11: 14
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Remembering the report of Commander Nakhimov

    10 have guns 6 ". To the upper deck. Wounded 2

    The gun is intact, 2 wounded, despite the fact that the deck (it is the roof of the casemate) is not armored.
    Compare with hitting the roof of the Mikasa casemate. The Japanese shell is clearly worse than ours.
    In 3 gun. 6 ". 1 killed, wounded 7. The side is punctured and gun No. 3 is smashed.

    This is about the level of our shells.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 14: 52
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    10 have guns 6 ". To the upper deck. Wounded 2

    The gun is intact, 2 wounded,

    And who said that it is whole? Nobody made a detailed description of the damage - in the reports, the indication of the places of shell hits, losses, and descriptions of more or less remembered individual hits
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 15: 12
    0
    Warrant officer Rozhdestvensky collected and analyzed all the damage, so I primarily use his data. There is information that he still made 15 schemes of these damages, but I do not have them.
    6 "a shell hitting the right tower knocked out all the servants of both guns and the tower commander. It took a long time to remove the killed and wounded from the towers, after which only the tower continued to operate

    As I understand it, the shell flew through the canvas roof of the barbet. But the guns remained intact ...
    ... again the Japanese shell worked like ours!
  • rytik32
    rytik32 19 February 2021 18: 19
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But I'm curious, do you think the TNT equivalent of pyroxylin is almost 2? :))))))))

    In our projectile in different sources from 4,3 to 5,4 kg of pyroxylin. Where does 2 come from?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 00: 07
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    In our projectile in different sources from 4,3 to 5,4 kg of pyroxylin. Where does 2 come from?

    Because the exact amount of pyroxylin in our "newest" 305-mm BB weighing 331,7 kg is still covered with unknown darkness.
    It is reliably known that 331,7 kg of BB arr 1907 carried 5,3 kg of explosives (shells without a tip) or 6 kg (shells with a tip). Naturally, it was about TNT. So, according to one of the hypotheses (that the BB projectile of the 1907 g sample is the same Dotsushima BB, which replaced pyroxylin with TNT and a tube), it really turns out that the BB projectile had 3,8-4,3 kg of pyroxylin (the brass cover weighed about one and a half kg).
    But on the other hand, there is an opinion that the 1907 shells are a new development, and that the number of explosives in them was increased in comparison with the Tsushima ones. The most famous "murzilka" on this topic
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 00: 12
    0
    In general, it turns out like this. If we assume that the explosive charge with the 331,7 kg shell of the BB projectile was 5,3 kg, then it contained approximately 3,8 kg of pyroxylin. Taking into account the fact that its moisture content was at least 20%, the weight of pyroxylin itself is 3,04 kg. Taking into account the fact that pyroxylin surpasses black powder by about 3,3 times in explosion strength, we have approximately 10-kg "powder" equivalent
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 11: 31
    0
    Andrey, this is your free interpretation: subtract the weight of the case and water)))
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 February 2021 14: 39
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    Andrey, this is your free interpretation: subtract the weight of the case and water)))

    Not at all. There is an attitude of MTC, where all this is spelled out

    The weight of the case can be easily calculated from the data of the 254 mm projectile. As for water, this is self-evident: the chemical properties of pyroxylin are indicated for dry pyroxylin, and this must be taken into account.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 23: 23
    0
    Andrey, the weight of the explosive in the land mine is 6 kg from the plate. The same source indicates 4,3 kg for an armor-piercing projectile. And you don't need to count anything)))
    About water - I disagree.
    And now the main thing: pyroxylin is 6,5 times more powerful than black powder

    Source: M. Sukharevsky. Explosives and blasting operations.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 February 2021 10: 06
    +1
    Quote: rytik32
    Andrey, the weight of the explosive in the land mine is 6 kg from the plate. The same source indicates 4,3 kg for an armor-piercing projectile.

    Where is it?
    Quote: rytik32
    About water - I disagree.

    Alas, this fact does not depend on your consent.
    Quote: rytik32
    And now the main thing: pyroxylin is 6,5 times more powerful than black powder

    In which place? You read the table. "Ordinary Explosion", three times.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 February 2021 11: 14
    +1
    I'll try to explain. Detonation is completely different

    That is, yes, if you place gunpowder and pyroxylin openly, there will be a difference of 6,5. But the question is that gunpowder and pyroxylin are not openly placed in the shell. And there will be a completely different effect, which should be considered differently.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 22 February 2021 14: 25
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the question is that gunpowder and pyroxylin are not openly placed in the projectile. And there will be a completely different effect, which should be considered differently.

    Black powder does not know how "differently". It is not a blasting explosive.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 22 February 2021 14: 24
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Where is it?

    E. Polomoshnov.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Alas, this fact does not depend on your consent.

    Unfortunately, the fact is that dry and wet pyroxylin have different properties, for example, the brisance of wet pyroxylin is much higher. Therefore, it is completely unreasonable to take away water from the weight of moist pyroxylin.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 19 February 2021 21: 38
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I don’t understand at all how this could have been done - in the casemate.
    But even if this is so, where is the guarantee that this projectile was of a new type?

    The shell most likely exploded at the edge of the embrasure and the debris flew sideways into the adjacent embrasures. And what is shown on the diagram is the main "bundle" of fragments or the nose of the projectile flew right into the gun.
    The shell was 90% from the "Eagle", the Japanese noted then that the "Eagle" began to hit very close and even hit, so the fire from the "Borodino" was temporarily transferred to it, suppressing the "Eagle", they returned again to the "Borodino".
    The distance then was 5500 to "Borodino", which went almost abeam "Mikasa". "Nicholas 1" lagged behind, so the distance to him should be a little more, ie. too much for his 6dm.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 February 2021 11: 04
    0
    the answer is above
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 23 February 2021 10: 27
    +1
    I will interfere with your controversy. I think it's not about the quality of the shells and the amount of explosives. And the point is a large number of hits in the shortest possible time. And this became possible with the passive tactics of the Russians. The concentrated fire endured everything and everyone, did not allow extinguishing fires. Suvorov held out for a long time, but in an almost incapacitated state.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 23 February 2021 10: 42
    +1
    I just started to dig for one more reason: methods of sighting and fire control. So far, the information received is clearly not in our favor. And if our fire was organized as described in the brochure "Organization of Artillery Shooting at 2TOE" in 1905, then the hits could only be accidental ...
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 19 February 2021 16: 27
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    If the projectile cannot penetrate the armor, then it is not a big difference whether 5 kg or 15 kg will explode behind the armor.

    If three dozen Russian shells in Tsushima could not inflict any significant damage to Mikasa, they can hardly be called good. Despite the fact that 25 Japanese were deprived of "Tsarevich" V ZhM control, most of the course and in the end and forced to intern.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 19 February 2021 17: 34
    +1
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Despite the fact that 25 Japanese deprived of the "Tsarevich" In the ZhM control, most of the course

    "Asama" needed much less ...
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    If three dozen Russian shells in Tsushima could not inflict any significant damage to Mikasa, they can hardly be called good.

    Is it possible to call the Japanese shells good, if even shooting the Suvorov from 2000 meters they could not drown it?
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 20 February 2021 11: 25
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    "Asama" needed much less ...

    "Asama" is not a bit of an armadillo. And it went out of order for only a quarter of an hour. Then he returned and, as if nothing had happened, continued the battle.
    Quote: rytik32
    "Suvorov" from 2000 meters could not drown him?

    They were able to bring him into an incapacitated state, after which the destroyers coped with the drowning.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 20 February 2021 12: 21
    0
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    "Asama" is not a bit of an armadillo.

    But such "non-battleships" were 2/3 of the Japanese line.
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    And it went out of order for only a quarter of an hour. Then he returned and, as if nothing had happened, continued the battle.

    Are you saying that in 15 minutes "Asama" was already in service?
    And did not even fail again?
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    They were able to bring him into an incapacitated state, after which the destroyers coped with the drowning.

    If a modern tank can be rendered incapacitated from a large-caliber machine gun, destroying observation devices, control systems, communications, weapons, chassis, then does this mean that a large-caliber machine gun is a good anti-tank weapon? laughing
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 20 February 2021 16: 27
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    But such "non-battleships" were 2/3 of the Japanese line.

    And there were no more such Lakichots, although hits did happen. so I don’t think this episode is in any way typical.
    Quote: rytik32
    Are you saying that in 15 minutes "Asama" was already in service?

    I want to say that the Japanese quickly coped with the damage and restored combat capability, which was not observed in the case of the "Tsarevich".
    Quote: rytik32
    If a modern tank

    Invalid example.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 20 February 2021 17: 26
    +1
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    And there were no more such Lakichots, although hits did happen. so I don’t think this episode is in any way typical.

    "Yakumo" was licked in the ZhM. As a result, from just one projectile could not go in the ranks
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    I want to say that the Japanese quickly coped with the damage and restored combat capability, which was not observed in the case of the "Tsarevich".

    So on "Tseserevich" after 20-25 minutes controllability was restored.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 20 February 2021 19: 58
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    So on "Tseserevich" after 20-25 minutes controllability was restored.

    But not speed.
    However, you yourself have determined the failure of your ammunition. In your interpretation, they are only valid against minor (if not third) units like Asamoids. The Japanese, albeit without complaints, at the very least coped with the battleships.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 20 February 2021 20: 36
    +1
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    However, you yourself have determined the failure of your ammunition.

    In no case!
    Compare "Tsesarevich" and "Mikasa" in JM: ships that received approximately the same number of shells. And the comparison is clearly not in favor of the Japanese shells: neither in terms of crew losses, nor in terms of the withdrawn guns, nor in terms of flooding.
    One gate.
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    But not speed.

    And what was the speed of the "Tsarevich"?

    Quote: Senior Sailor
    The Japanese, albeit without complaints, at the very least coped with the battleships.

    Even "Suvorov" could not be drowned from 2000 meters! "Eagle" withstood a hundred hits.
    Is this called "coping"?
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 20 February 2021 22: 00
    +1
    Quote: rytik32
    Compare "Tsesarevich" and "Mikasa" in JM: ships that received approximately the same number of shells.

    Quite right, "Mikasa" was kept in the ranks, and its main damage (the failed main battery) can in no way be considered the merit of the Russian artillerymen. And even in Tsushima, having received a significantly larger number of hits, he (a) did not lose his combat effectiveness.
    Quote: rytik32
    And what was the speed of the "Tsarevich"?

    EMNIP 8 knots.
    Quote: rytik32
    "Eagle" withstood a hundred hits.

    Only in Kostenko's fantasies.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 20 February 2021 22: 21
    0
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    And even in Tsushima, having received a significantly larger number of hits, he (a) did not lose his combat effectiveness.

    Aha, as many as six 12 inch shells!
    Our battleships also had no problems with that many hits.
    Then where is the advantage of Japanese shells?
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 21 February 2021 14: 07
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    Aha, as many as six 12 inch shells!
    Our battleships also had no problems with that many hits.

    "Oslyaba" took three.
    Well, okay, it's poorly armored and poorly built. But at least something had to happen!
  • rytik32
    rytik32 21 February 2021 15: 01
    0
    More or less, only one hit from the Fuji hits the living deck in the bow. And how much was still or was not - it is not known exactly.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 24 February 2021 23: 43
    0
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    EMNIP 8 knots.

  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 25 February 2021 12: 19
    0
    What are you talking about?
    Kind of idiom "should have been"implies"could not".
    Yes, in terms of the number of revolutions, the stroke should have been 14-15 knots ... with a normal displacement, no flooding, steering operability, that is, everything that was not observed in reality. As a result, "Caesar" lagged behind the barely trudging squadron and was forced to leave for a neutral port, where he was interned. That is, he dropped out of the war. In other words, the Japanese gunners and their shells coped with their task.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 25 February 2021 12: 24
    +1
    This indicates the design speed. The usual way of measuring at that time ...
    It is clear that nobody threw the lag.
    About "The Tsarevich has fallen behind" is a story. I decided to go to Vladivostok. But then Ivanov and Matusevich got up and shamefully interned. And they lied about the fact that they lagged behind. And they lied about the consumption of coal.
    Just yesterday I read the testimony ...
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 25 February 2021 23: 16
    0
    Quote: rytik32
    Is it possible to call the Japanese shells good, if even shooting the Suvorov from 2000 meters they could not drown it?

    Counterquestion. Is it possible to call Russian shells good if the armored "Ochakov" could not be sunk by shooting from 1000 meters?
  • rytik32
    rytik32 25 February 2021 23: 30
    0
    There are no questions about the shells.
    10 dm and 6 dm shells, breaking through the armored deck, exploded in the boiler room and engine room, respectively.
    Why the water did not flood them - the only question is in God. There were no waves.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 February 2021 14: 08
    +1
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    According to Andrey, the quality of our ammunition was equal to that of Japanese

    wassat When I said that, can you tell me?
    You confused me very much with someone
    1. rytik32
      rytik32 19 February 2021 18: 09
      +1
      And I even know with whom wink
  • unknown
    unknown 19 February 2021 00: 28
    0
    That ill-fated Slava report has long been recognized as a literary hoax.
    Just think, report.
    The biography of the Queen of England is rewritten almost every year.
    And you, report ...
  • 27091965
    27091965 17 February 2021 10: 33
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And yes, show me where and what he blamed on subordinates


    Fragment from the above report of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky to the Minister of the Sea of ​​February 01, 1906.

    It can be noted that after Tsushima ZP Rozhestvensky believed that we did not have capable sailors and would not soon be.
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 17 February 2021 12: 06
      +3
      Quote: 27091965i
      that after Tsushima ZP Rozhestvensky believed that we did not have capable sailors and would not soon be.

      somehow Essen thought differently ... request
      1. 27091965
        27091965 17 February 2021 12: 40
        +4
        Quote: DrEng527
        somehow Essen thought differently.


        In the report from where this passage was taken, Z. P. Rozhestvensky is trying to justify himself, after the claims made to him as to the Chief of the Main Naval Staff, so there is nothing surprising in his words.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 16: 08
          +1
          Quote: 27091965i
          In the report from where this passage was taken Z.P. Rozhestvensky tries to justify

          And in letters to his wife he tries to justify himself ...
          1. 27091965
            27091965 17 February 2021 16: 58
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And in letters to his wife he tries to justify himself ...


            I cannot answer you this question, in letters to loved ones, people are more guided by their emotions and feelings. The report is an official document.
  • unknown
    unknown 19 February 2021 00: 26
    0
    I have seen. I work in this one. I am still surprised.
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 09: 24
    -2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Undoubtedly.

    Andrey, I am aware that you are a fan of Zinovy's PONTS, but you shouldn't be so FUCKING THICK - IT HURTS HER !!!
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 14
      +1
      Maxim, unlike you, I know a little about maritime history. You will cut nonsense, and - IN CAPITAL LETTERS :)
      1. 2534M
        2534M 17 February 2021 10: 16
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Maxim, unlike you, I know a little about maritime history

        Andrey, it seems so to YOU lol
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You nonsense

        aaaa Zinovia weary ... crying

        The problem is that this "TIPAZH" is very typical for our Navy ...
        Therefore, attempts to "smear" it get acc. face about table
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 28
          +3
          Quote: 2534M
          aaaa Zinovia was haunted.

          I am not here. You are openly rude.
          Quote: 2534M
          Therefore, attempts to "smear" it get acc. face about table

          Maxim, in order to get to my face in this matter, you need to at least grow up to the table :)
          All that was enough for you was Gribovsky's thoughtless copy-paste. Which, well, is far from "The Truth In The Last Instance", and to put it mildly
          1. 2534M
            2534M 17 February 2021 10: 35
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Maxim, in order to get to my face in this matter, you need to at least grow up to the table :)

            Should I visit your firm?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            - thoughtless

            thoughtless is your pulling the gumka on the globe "for Zinovy"
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 10: 48
              +2
              Quote: 2534M
              Should I visit your firm?

              Stop by.
              1. 2534M
                2534M 17 February 2021 10: 53
                -2
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Stop by.

                I will be in Chelyabinsk - I will definitely drop by
                no contact details needed (already have wink )
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 02
                  +3
                  Quote: 2534M
                  I will be in Chelyabinsk - I will definitely drop by
                  contact details are not needed (already there

                  Maxim, well, you really don't need to smack nonsense. He has "contact details", yeah. I now live in Yekaterinburg, if anything.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 February 2021 11: 04