Military Review

UEC has started creating a digital twin of a new generation marine gas turbine engine

114
UEC has started creating a digital twin of a new generation marine gas turbine engine

United Engine Corporation is starting to create a digital twin of a new generation gas turbine engine for ships with a displacement of up to 12 thousand tons. This is stated in the message of "Rostec".


The development will allow you to manage the life cycle and increase the reliability of the power plant

- stated in Rostec.

As explained, a digital twin is a mathematical model that contains complete product data. With the help of this development, it is possible to carry out various tests at all stages of the creation and life cycle of the engine, which significantly reduces the time and cost of designing, creating prototypes, testing and fine-tuning the power plant.

Digitalization reduces the time and cost of designing power plants, including a line of new generation marine gas turbine engines (...) the digital twin will allow us to offer customers (...) a full life cycle contract, which implies the supply and maintenance of the engine at all stages of operation

- said in the UEC.

The work on the double is carried out by the Rybinsk enterprise "ODK-Saturn" together with the Peter the Great St. Petersburg Polytechnic University, Skoltech and CIAM. It is planned to develop mathematical models of GTE units and a gearbox for a basic marine engine with a capacity of 20,2 MW, a promising marine engine with a capacity of 25 MW and a gearbox PO55. Completion of the work is scheduled for 2023.
Photos used:
United Engine Corporation
114 comments
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  1. seti
    seti 12 February 2021 11: 54
    +9
    Work brothers. I believe you will succeed.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 12 February 2021 12: 28
      -15%
      And joyful squeals! There is nothing global about digitizing drawings and creating 3D models.
      1. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 12: 38
        +14
        Quote: lexus

        And joyful squeals! There is nothing global about digitizing drawings and creating 3D models.

        This is not a 3-D model at all ... This is a WORKING mathematical model, it can be used for virtual tests, simulate emergency situations, under various loads ... At different degrees of wear. These are very cool things that allow you to anticipate problem areas in advance, save a lot of time and money on fine-tuning tests.
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 12 February 2021 12: 42
          -15%
          A case for a small group of programmers under the supervision of design engineers.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 12 February 2021 13: 57
            +2
            Quote: lexus
            A case for a small group of programmers

            Uh-huh. A couple of students is enough (sarcasm).
          2. Mountain shooter
            Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 14: 21
            +13
            Quote: lexus
            Case for a small group of programmers under the supervision of design engineers

            You are ABSOLUTELY not in the know! You are just confusing the active matmodel with the 3-D model ... It's a very long time to tell what the difference is. But a couple of students will be doing this for a thousand years, and it will not work either ... In such a model, there is a mass of interrelated calculations simultaneously, calculating temperatures in different parts of the turbine, compressor, bearings, gears of the reducer. There is also a calculation of fuel consumption, pressure in different stages of the compressor, depending on the speed ...
            Yes, there are hundreds of parameters.
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 12 February 2021 14: 23
              -10%
              Discuss the "couple of students" with your colleague. I didn’t write that.
          3. bk316
            bk316 12 February 2021 15: 50
            -2
            for a small group of programmers under the supervision of design engineers.

            And the programmers got to do with it?
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 12 February 2021 16: 17
              +1
              Quote: bk316
              programmers got to do with

              Because a mathematical model is a program.
              1. bk316
                bk316 12 February 2021 16: 28
                0
                Because a mathematical model is a program.

                Actually, no, the program is just an instruction for calculating the mathematical model for certain parameter values ​​or a tool for simplifying symbolic constructions. Well, okay, let it be laughing , probably you didn’t graduate from the Physics Department or VMiK.
                1C is also a program, but an accountant is not a programmer.
                Engineers work with CAE, not programmers, but here we are talking about this class of programs.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 12 February 2021 17: 04
                  0
                  Quote: bk316
                  Actually, no, the program is just an instruction for calculating the mathematical model for certain parameter values ​​or a tool for simplifying symbolic constructions.

                  That is, a mathematical model is not a computer program? Uh-uh ... What do they write on paper?
                  Quote: bk316
                  Engineers work with CAE, not programmers

                  Engineers work with a finished product, which is created by programmers.
                  1. bk316
                    bk316 13 February 2021 16: 02
                    0
                    What do they write on paper?

                    It is on paper. The equations of matphysics you did not go through it is clear.
                    Well then ask yourself the question where does the writing of a mathematical model begin.
                    For example, there was an accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and the thought arose that the fuel melt could burn through the foundation, the ground and reach the groundwater. Where to begin? The example is not accidental, every step has been described.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 13 February 2021 16: 03
                      -2
                      Quote: bk316
                      It is on paper.

                      That is, you live in the Stone Age.
                      Quote: bk316
                      Well then ask yourself the question where does the writing of a mathematical model begin.

                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, a mathematical model is not a computer program?
                      That is, you do not know this.
                      1. bk316
                        bk316 13 February 2021 16: 06
                        0
                        That is, you live in the Stone Age.

                        No, you simply do not create mathematical models, you use existing ones.
                        And it never occurs to you where they come from.

                        But one shouldn't get away from the example. So how did the creation of a mathematical model of the melt flow begin?
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 13 February 2021 16: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: bk316
                        No, you just don't create mathematical models, you use existing ones.

                        Seriously? Do mathematical models of all equipment already exist?
                        Quote: bk316
                        So how did the creation of a mathematical model of the melt flow begin?

                        From the technical task.
                      3. bk316
                        bk316 13 February 2021 19: 58
                        -2
                        From the technical task.

                        No, you didn't guess. Chernobyl had no time to write TK.
                        By the way, I have vague suspicions that you have ever participated in projects. Usually everything starts with a technical assignment, but not with a technical assignment, but with a technical NOTE. Anyway . Second try. Introductory: Velikhov came running (I hope you know who he is) and immediately gave an introductory read about the accident at an American nuclear power plant, so can we have a "Chinese syndrome"?
                      4. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 14 February 2021 07: 06
                        -2
                        Quote: bk316
                        By the way, I have vague suspicions that you have ever participated in projects. Usually everything starts with a technical assignment, but not with a technical assignment, but with a technical NOTE.

                        I don’t know where you saw the notes, but any serious work, including the creation of MM (if it’s not a teapot of some kind), begins with the TK.
                        In addition, I never saw the answer to the question, how can you create a mathematical model that allows you to simulate the operation of technical products in different conditions (and for this it is needed in order to save on field tests) if it is not a computer program?
                      5. bk316
                        bk316 14 February 2021 21: 03
                        0
                        begins with TK.

                        How old are you? You have not read GOSTs.
                        won't it be a computer program?

                        So, about the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, you merged. Answer people (physicists), after the call from above, gathered in the room at the blackboard (you understand, it was then customary to place a blackboard on one of the walls in the rooms of institutes) and began to write laws in chalk that could affect this. As a result of brainstorming, in the first approximation MATMODEL was born of the movement of melt through an obstacle. BORN AS THE SYSTEM OF EQUATIONS WRITTEN ON THE BOARD WITH CHALK. Then this model was repeatedly refined (supplemented with second-order equations). Then they called in mathematicians from my faculty. They simplified the equations and told what methods to use to solve. And only then they came to my department and asked me to write a program to calculate this model.
                        Did I answer your question? This I did not read in the wiki, the young man, I saw that board myself. If you are an engineer, this will be useful for you. If a scientist, it's a pity that everything has degraded so much.

                        In the late 80s, when I graduated from Moscow State University with a degree in applied mathematics, each graduate knew that a mathematical model is created by physicists, biologists, in general, not programmers, but it is our job (of applied mathematicians) to program this model. What I have been doing for 10 years laughing
                      6. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 14 February 2021 22: 15
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        Answer people (physicists) after the call from above

                        What you are telling here is not a mathematical model that imitates a product, but a mathematical model of just one process. Well, if you want, then, you can try to paint the most complex unit by hand, on a board measuring several tens of square kilometers.
                        In our time and in this particular case, a mathematical model (if it is a normal model, and not a product of Horns and Hooves) is exactly a computer program that allows you to simulate the behavior of equipment in various situations, allowing you to greatly save on practical experiments.
                        As for theoretical physics, which you are talking about, then again there are breakthroughs of libraries containing ready-made programs for calculating anything, so the creators of the model will simply take a ready-made solution.
                        What up to your
                        Quote: bk316
                        They simplified the equations and told what methods to use to solve. And only then they came to my department and asked me to write a program to calculate this model.
                        it looked very funny after
                        Quote: bk316
                        And the programmers got to do with it?
                        given in response to
                        Quote: lexus
                        groups of programmers under the supervision of design engineers
                        That is, at first you wonder what the programmers have to do with it, and then you yourself write that it was they who wrote the program.
                        And yes, I know that programmers work with what engineers ask them to do.
                        I answered your question?
                      7. bk316
                        bk316 15 February 2021 11: 57
                        0
                        That is, at first you wonder what the programmers have to do with it, and then you yourself write that it was they who wrote the program.

                        It looks like it's beyond your understanding.
                        Understand the programmers who work with engineers do not know thermodynamics, do not pass sapromat, etc. .... They cannot write a mathematical model, they can only calculate it. It's amazing why you don't understand this. You are probably not a programmer.

                        Try to understand after all, just one paragraph:
                        Actually, no, the program is just an instruction for calculating the mathematical model for certain parameter values ​​or a tool for simplifying symbolic constructions.


                        For example, I wrote a program for calculating epidemic mathematical models. Yes yes familiar topic? How could I calculate and create it without being a microbiologist, if I do not know anything about the factors of propagation? The last time the programmer starts working, the work on the creation of the mathematical model ends.
                        In general, doesn't it seem funny to you that you are arguing about programming problems with a person who is a programmer for 35 years already?
                      8. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 15 February 2021 12: 49
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        Understand the programmers who work with engineers do not know thermodynamics, do not pass sapromat, etc. .... They cannot write a mathematical model, they can only calculate it.

                        Quote: lexus
                        groups of programmers under the supervision of design engineers

                        Apparently you cannot read what has been written?
                      9. bk316
                        bk316 15 February 2021 14: 43
                        0
                        Apparently you cannot read what has been written?

                        Can. What's under control?
                      10. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 15 February 2021 16: 50
                        0
                        Quote: bk316

                        Can. What's under control?

                        This means that these engineers are just explaining to programmers what they do not know.
                      11. bk316
                        bk316 15 February 2021 18: 29
                        0
                        what they don't know.

                        Programmers know nothing but programming systems and algorithms.
                        Applied mathematicians know nothing but ways to solve systems of equations and a mathematical base.
                        Well, there is no sapromat, no microbiology, no hydrodynamics, no radiophysics, no thermodynamics on the VMiK. And physicists are there for only 2 semesters and this is mechanics and electrostatics. And the equations of mathematical physics are considered from the point of view of their solution and not their statement.
                        But what they are told is the matmodel.
                      12. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 16 February 2021 11: 33
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        Programmers know nothing but programming systems and algorithms.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        This means that these engineers are just explaining to programmers what they do not know.

                        I'm wondering what is incomprehensible in this?
                      13. bk316
                        bk316 16 February 2021 15: 23
                        0
                        I'm wondering what is incomprehensible in this?

                        You probably don't understand.
                        But what they are told is the matmodel.

                        And what they explain is words, graphs, equations, but not programs, because these engineers do not know programming languages.
                        Hence the matmodel is not a program.
                        This is a verbal or formal, for example, in the form of systems of equations, a description of something from reality and in no way a program that solves or visualizes these equations.
                      14. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 16 February 2021 16: 54
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        And what they explain is words, graphs, equations, but not programs, because these engineers do not know programming languages.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, if you want, then, you can try to paint the most complex unit by hand, on a board, measuring several tens of square kilometers.

                        Quote: bk316
                        Hence the matmodel is not a program.

                        Then nobody needs it in FIG, because we do not live in the Stone Age and now it is the program that is needed.
                      15. bk316
                        bk316 19 February 2021 14: 43
                        0
                        the program is needed now.

                        The program is certainly needed. I'm not talking about this, but about the fact that you are using the wrong terminology.
                        The matmodel is made by specialized specialists + mathematicians.
                        And programmers write programs to CALCULATE it.
                        And so that it could be used again by non-programmers.
                        I'll tell you a secret that there is still a lot of programmers' work, because what we are discussing with you is the backend.
                        And nowadays there is more effort in front-end programming.
                        Thus, programmers do not participate in the creation of a mathematical model, neither in understanding the correct, classical, nor in understanding the user.
                        Well, this is, of course, if you do not count those who sculpt scripts as programmers, but we do not call Excel users programmers laughing
                      16. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 February 2021 19: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: bk316
                        The matmodel is made by specialized specialists + mathematicians.
                        And programmers write programs to CALCULATE it.

                        Nowadays, a mathematical model means the final product, that is, exactly the program with which you can work. The fact that programmers themselves solve technical issues no one said.
                      17. bk316
                        bk316 4 March 2021 14: 22
                        0
                        Nowadays, a mathematical model means the final product, that is, exactly the program with which you can work.


                        This is by no means only to you as a user it seems so. I can give a dozen definitions without the word program. For example:

                        Suppose we are going to investigate a certain set S of properties of a real object a with the help of mathematics (here the term object is understood in the broadest sense: an object can serve not only what is usually called by this word, but also any situation, phenomenon, process, etc. ). To do this, we choose (as they say, build) a "mathematical object" a '- a system of equations, or arithmetic relations, or geometric figures, or a combination of both, etc., - the study of which by means of mathematics should answer the questions posed about the properties of S. Under these conditions, a 'is called the mathematical model of the object a with respect to the totality S of its properties.

                        By the way, this is from here:
                        Myshkis A.D., Elements of the theory of mathematical models. - 3rd ed., Rev. - M .: KomKniga, 2007. - 192 with ISBN 978-5-484-00953-4
                      18. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 4 March 2021 15: 42
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        This is by no means only to you as a user it seems so.

                        And in your time MM were made for whom? Once again 40 years ago, you could do anything, but
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Nowadays, a mathematical model means the final product, that is, exactly the program with which you can work.
  • Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 09
    -1
    Quote: bk316
    1C is also a program, but an accountant is not a programmer.
    Engineers work with CAE, not programmers

    In your opinion, was the 1C program written by an accountant? Private or Chief?
    1. bk316
      bk316 13 February 2021 16: 03
      0
      In your opinion, was the 1C program written by an accountant?

      Does the programmer calculate the balance?
  • bk316
    bk316 12 February 2021 12: 43
    +7
    nothing global.

    And what has the global to do with it? People are starting to make a turbine of a new generation. For modern Russia, it is like Dneprogess for the USSR. In general, five countries know how to make such turbines.
    One should be happy for the people for the country. Your bile lexus will destroy you.
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      2. Dart2027
        Dart2027 12 February 2021 13: 58
        +4
        Quote: lexus
        contact specialized specialists

        I highly recommend finding a good psychologist.
        https://www.b17.ru/article/287277/
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      3. lucul
        lucul 12 February 2021 15: 50
        +3
        You just don't have to inflate an elephant out of a fly

        You just don't need to pass off your ignorance as reality.
        You just don't realize the full scale of what happened. This is a FULL simulation of the physical processes of a gas turbine engine. This is thousands of man-hours of work of programmers and designers, hellish scrupulous work. But now, you can simply set the input data, say the power of 100 hp and the program will calculate everything by itself, in just a couple of hours.
        For our motor industry, this is just a breakthrough, a landmark event.
        The best news for today (so far), I'm happy.
        Well, you, Russophobes grieve from ANY success of Russia.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 12 February 2021 15: 58
          -4
          You have a too naive idea of ​​modeling, pressed the button and ... at the behest, at my will ... It's still a long way to artificial intelligence. And you would-be patriots are just accustomed to hanging labels ... Russophobes.
          1. lucul
            lucul 12 February 2021 16: 10
            0
            You have a too naive idea of ​​modeling, pressed the button and ... at the behest, at my will ... It's still a long way to artificial intelligence.

            This has been working for a long time))) and without any AI. Read how leading car manufacturers design car motors)))
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 12 February 2021 16: 13
              -2
              I use different CAD systems in my work, but do you work with a computer? And what have the leading manufacturers brought modern motors to. Do you know?
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 12 February 2021 16: 20
                +1
                Quote: Konnick
                I use different CAD systems in my work, but do you work with a computer?

                Do you not understand the difference between a mathematical model of a product and its image? Maybe you can read something on this topic.
                1. Konnick
                  Konnick 12 February 2021 16: 23
                  -3
                  Please give a brief introduction laughing ?
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 12 February 2021 17: 05
                    +2
                    Quote: Konnick
                    Please familiarize

                    A mathematical model is an approximate description of a class of phenomena in the external world, expressed in mathematical symbols. [B: 2]
                    According to Lyapunov, mathematical modeling is an indirect practical or theoretical study of an object, in which not the object of interest to us is directly studied, but some auxiliary artificial or natural system (model) that is in some objective correspondence with the object being cognized, capable of replacing it in certain respects and giving, in its investigation, ultimately, information about the modeled object itself [B: 3].
                    In other versions, the mathematical model is defined as a substitute object for the original object, providing the study of some properties of the original [B: 4], as an “equivalent” of the object, reflecting in mathematical form its most important properties - the laws to which it obeys, the connections inherent its constituent parts ”[B: 5], as a system of equations, or arithmetic relations, or geometric figures, or a combination of both, the study of which by means of mathematics should answer the questions posed about the properties of a certain set of properties of an object in the real world [B: 6] , as a set of mathematical relationships, equations, inequalities, describing the basic laws inherent in the studied process, object or system [B: 7].
                    In automated control systems, a mathematical model is used to determine the algorithm for the functioning of the controller. This algorithm determines how the control action should be changed depending on the change in the master in order to achieve the control goal. [B: 8]
                  2. Konnick
                    Konnick 12 February 2021 17: 25
                    -4
                    Thanks, I wonder, but I didn't understand anything. I understand that you work with digital twins laughing or you can simply copy from the Internet without understanding the difference between a mathematical model and a digital twin. Do you have all the knowledge from the Internet or explain what the "Controller functioning algorithm" is.
                    I remember lectures on the subject "Design of Automatic Lines". There, Ph.D. proved the "reliability" of automatic lines using the exponent of the natural logarithm, are you one of these?
                  3. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 12 February 2021 18: 15
                    +3
                    Quote: Konnick
                    Thanks, I wonder, but I didn't understand anything.

                    Expected.
                    Quote: Konnick
                    I understand that you work with digital twins

                    With drawings.
                    Quote: Konnick
                    not understanding the difference between a mathematical model and a digital twin
                    Well, enlighten, let's listen.
                  4. Konnick
                    Konnick 12 February 2021 19: 45
                    -2
                    Locksmith or what? With drawings. Why not CD?
                  5. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 12 February 2021 21: 06
                    +1
                    Quote: Konnick
                    Locksmith or what? With drawings. Why not CD?

                    Engineer. With drawings, MOT, RE and others.
      4. lucul
        lucul 12 February 2021 17: 21
        +2
        And what have the leading manufacturers brought modern motors to. Do you know?

        Well, before, the designer installed a certain margin of safety in each node, with a small margin, and this margin of safety directly influenced the durability of the product.
        And now, the priority is to reduce the cost, so a product is designed for only a certain number of years. Any time it lasts longer is considered a waste of money. This is a new philosophy.
        1. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 18
          0
          Quote: lucul
          the constructor was fixing

          I "screwed up" it from the word "crap".
          Indicators are usually laid down.
          And if the designer, or someone else, "lays down" at the workplace, then after that he "works", ie I get on driving.
          How is everything all right with you?
  • MrFox
    MrFox 12 February 2021 22: 04
    +3
    Give a link to at least a model describing the operation of two mating gears, taking into account the material, the viscosity of the oil in the gearbox, vibration caused by errors in alignment
  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 13 February 2021 00: 21
    -2
    Quote: lucul
    .... The best news for today (so far), I'm happy.
    "good news" is when, for example, a power plant will be installed in the fourth building 22350 (Isakov) from real "existing in metal" GTE, diesel engines and gearboxes connecting them (!)and will not "feed you", another achievement, like - "... United Engine Corporation begins to create a digital twin of a new generation gas turbine engine ...." or , - "The UEC announced the creation of a line of power plants to replace the Ukrainian ...." ..(!), which happens with enviable regularity, right up to "burst of applause"... ? !! request belay
    For the frigate will not sail, nor on the article about achievementsOr on a digital model ... !!! Not earlier than ten years from the bookmark (!), each ... crying
    Quote: lucul
    You just don't need your ignorance pass off as reality .
    here and evaluate WHERE EXACTLY (?!), and what is it like - reality? !!! winked
    Quote: lucul
    ... the full scale of what happened.
    repeat
    And it enrages Lexus, probably just the fact that instead of -
    Quote: lucul
    success of Russia.
    , we have to observe not specifics in accelerating the creation real power plants, for NK, and articles with victorious reports ... recourse
  • Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 12
    +1
    Quote: lexus
    If you have joyful incontinence about every little thing in your household, contact specialized specialists

    In fact, we are talking about revolutionary changes in the system of developing gas turbines.
    It's like getting a steel one after a stone ax.
  • gridasov
    gridasov 12 February 2021 13: 46
    +2
    It is necessary not to do what everyone else does, but to be an absolute leader in the development of turbine engineering. f
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 12 February 2021 22: 32
      0
      It is necessary not to do what everyone is doing, but to be an absolute leader
      Well, just cast these words into bronze in huge letters ...
      1. Captain Pushkin
        Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 21
        0
        Quote: Undecim
        It is necessary not to do what everyone is doing, but to be an absolute leader
        Well, just cast these words into bronze in huge letters ...

        Duc, contact a specialist, he will pour it in granite. Moreover, now he is not very busy with work.
  • bayard
    bayard 12 February 2021 22: 33
    -1
    Quote: bk316
    People are starting to make a new generation turbine

    Judging by the article, there are two ship turbines of special power - 44 and 500 hp, respectively.
    It's a lot .
    And this is for big ships. Cruiser / aircraft carrier class.
    The Chinese are selling their super destroyers and aircraft carriers on turbines with a capacity of 35 hp, with electric propulsion.
    True, it was a surprise that for ships VI 12 tons, because for them and 000 M4FR / FRU will be enough - on "Arleigh-Burks" also GEM on the same turbines is implemented.
    Or do they also want to try electric movement here?
    It would be nice - you don't need a running gear, you can play with powers, you can redirect part of the energy to power weapons - the same laser. Again, the low noise and the absence of extended wallines ...
    Well, as a power plant for a future non-nuclear aircraft carrier, with the ability to power EM catapults at maximum speed.
    ... But for now it is more important to get a serial and tested on the run power plant for 22350, and for future 22350M. On existing turbines.
    Moreover, the power plant for the 22350M will most likely go for the UDC under construction in Kerch.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 12 February 2021 12: 03
    -2
    UEC began to create

    Well, create it! For a long time and thoroughly IT IS TIME!
  • gridasov
    gridasov 12 February 2021 12: 30
    -1
    The engine or turbine is again on old and ineffective operating principles. The result will be appropriate
  • bk316
    bk316 12 February 2021 12: 38
    +1
    I do not trust SAE, of course nowhere without it. But imagine 5 years of work, a complete set of documentation, and the very first product in metal does not work, well, or even collapses.
    And there is just one error in one of the methods. And there are hundreds of these metrodes in any package ...
    1. Captain Pushkin
      Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 24
      +1
      Quote: bk316
      And there is just one error in one of the methods. And there are hundreds of these metrodes in any package ...

      For example, in one of a million lines, 1 was put instead of 0, or vice versa ...
      It was, passed ...
  • iouris
    iouris 12 February 2021 12: 42
    -6
    It turns out that the Stone Age. What computers and software? Is it really US? So soon they will be gone.
  • APASUS
    APASUS 12 February 2021 12: 53
    -1
    Damn, I don’t understand. In Rybinsk, are turbines still drawn on the drawing board, or how are they produced without a digital drawing?
    1. keeper03
      keeper03 12 February 2021 13: 54
      -5
      It looks like the papers were still going through! belay request
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 12 February 2021 14: 00
      +4
      Quote: APASUS
      In Rybinsk, turbines are still drawn on the drawing board, or how they are produced without a digital drawing

      digital twin is mathematical modelcontaining complete product data
      Drawings and mathematical models are completely different things.
    3. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 14: 32
      +5
      Quote: APASUS
      Damn, I don’t understand. In Rybinsk, are turbines still drawn on the drawing board, or how are they produced without a digital drawing?

      And you confuse a mathematical model with a 3-D model ... Digital drawings have been used everywhere for a very long time. Moreover, the design system RUSSIAN called "Compass" is quite up to par and works (we use it, really). Computers are now polls Chinese, despite the fact that they have painted on the case. Well, sometimes Korean or Taiwanese ... wassat
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 15: 18
        -1
        A digital twin on Compass? Do not make me laugh. It's just that you work in the military-industrial complex, and there, in my opinion, officially only the Compass and a bunch of tyrenny CAD.
        1. Mountain shooter
          Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 15: 21
          +4
          Quote: Konnick
          A digital twin on Compass?

          I ask you to read more carefully what I write and to whom I answer. I in no way meant any "digital twins" on Compass. This is impossible ... I answered a post in which they were outraged that our designers are still working on drawing boards.
        2. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 26
          0
          Quote: Konnick
          A digital twin on Compass?

          He writes about Compass for 3D
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 February 2021 12: 53
    +3
    "Dry super-jet" began to be produced when there was only a digital model, but the jambs did not come to light, and now they appear. I myself work in CAD, automatic systems are just a name, this is an assistant to the designer. And after digitizing the CD and creating a 3D model, appropriate programs are also needed to study the model. Solid works, Katy, Bentley are simulation programs, most likely digitization is done in Solid, which allows transferring manufacturing data to CNC equipment, but not simulating reliability and resource. The domestic program Compass is weaker than those listed above, it is more for registration.
    1. bk316
      bk316 12 February 2021 12: 57
      0
      I wrote about it ...
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 13: 06
        -2
        I continued, I may add. Part of the brain's resource is diverted to program management, the direct connection between the head and hand is lost. Fewer thoughts are left for creativity.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 12 February 2021 13: 37
          +3
          Most ideas and developments are carried out without a creative spark.
    2. Lycan
      Lycan 12 February 2021 14: 25
      0
      Quote: Konnick
      but not simulate for reliability and resource

      Solid has plug-ins (paid) with the ability to test under different loads. However, these test results still need to be able to correctly interpret.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 14: 32
        -3
        SolidWorks is a product of SolidWorks Corporation (USA). Solid Works® is a computer-aided design (CAD) system that uses the familiar Microsoft Windows graphical user interface. What about the sanctions?
        1. Lycan
          Lycan 12 February 2021 14: 55
          +1
          Sanctions are sanctions, but if there are no other adequate instruments (but extremely necessary), then:
          and. or the industry is lagging behind in the competition, choked with principles;
          b. or in a short time creates at least a (scanty, but) workable analogue;
          in. or, having swallowed his ambitions, he obeys the senior in rank and buys an instrument from someone who has it, even from a potential enemy (Lend-Lease).
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 12 February 2021 18: 35
            0
            T-FLEX CAD is its analogue, a Russian computer-aided design system that combines the parametric capabilities of 2D and 3D modeling with tools for creating and designing drawings and design documentation in accordance with ESKD and foreign standards (ISO, DIN, ANSI).

            The system is included in the Unified Register of Russian Programs [1]. Works in Microsoft Windows environment. The main file format for T-FLEX CAD CAD documents is * .grb.

            The system developer is the Russian company Top Systems.
            1. Lycan
              Lycan 12 February 2021 18: 43
              0
              Very well. If this product covers all critical requirements, then there should be no yelling about this: there is an alternative - there are prospects for development.
          2. Captain Pushkin
            Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 29
            0
            Quote: Lycan
            Sanctions are sanctions, but if there are no other adequate instruments (but extremely necessary), then:

            or "Russifies" what they don't want to sell.
            1. Lycan
              Lycan 13 February 2021 20: 43
              0
              Quote: Captain Pushkin
              "Russifies" what they don't want to sell

              How's that?
              1. Captain Pushkin
                Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 20: 48
                0
                Quote: Lycan
                Quote: Captain Pushkin
                "Russifies" what they don't want to sell

                How's that?

                Like Windows - "Free Download"
                1. Lycan
                  Lycan 14 February 2021 21: 52
                  0
                  laughing hmm ... on an industrial scale, i.e. for all KB? Only if without the admission of any observers there (which some leaders often sin). For the medium term, say, "gunpowder" is enough, and then? Yes, and they, after all, the means of protecting the information product do not stand still. And how many years will it take to develop a product for a footprint. stages of development? This is not the defense industry, where tangible state funds are poured in and from where all the potential is squeezed out.
                  1. Captain Pushkin
                    Captain Pushkin 15 February 2021 11: 46
                    0
                    Quote: Lycan
                    How many years will it take to develop a product for a trace. stages of development?

                    Several months after the appearance of the new program on THEIR market. It is very popular to use stolen programs all over the world, and not only in China and here.
                    1. Lycan
                      Lycan 15 February 2021 12: 02
                      0
                      Quote: Captain Pushkin
                      Several months after the appearance of a new program on THEIR market

                      Quote: Lycan
                      Yes, and they, after all, the means of protecting the information product do not stand still.

                      Freebies can't last forever. Yes, and it is harmful if abused.
    3. lucul
      lucul 12 February 2021 16: 15
      -1
      I myself work in CAD, automatic systems are just a name, this is an assistant to the designer.

      There are expensive (under $ 100) paid Solidworks libraries that can simulate. This is roughly the same as in computer games - previously they wrote everything by hand using an assembler, but now they don't.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 16: 21
        -1
        These are the so-called parameterized models, just templates for help, the constructor, using them, forgets about creativity and does not come up with a new node, just dampens. Remember what was invented new in technology? Everything has been known for a long time, new only in electronics and software.
        1. lucul
          lucul 12 February 2021 17: 24
          -1
          the designer, using them, forgets about creativity and does not come up with a new node, just discourages

          I agree. I would call it engineering ethics - you are a creator, or you are a performer (technician), there is no third way.
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 12 February 2021 12: 55
    +4
    Quote: lexus
    Again on "you" and being rude? This means that the clinic is progressing. It is regrettable. What is bile? You just don't have to inflate an elephant out of a fly. If you have joyful incontinence about every little thing, contact the specialized specialists - and they are primos

    Did you yourself create anything besides the brown substance?
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 12 February 2021 13: 03
    0
    This is a very necessary work, or maybe there is something to patent, you also don’t have to clap your ears, as with the same Kalashnikov, otherwise everyone who is not lazy is riveting.
    1. Captain Pushkin
      Captain Pushkin 13 February 2021 10: 32
      0
      Quote: Ros 56
      as with the same Kalashnikov, otherwise all and sundry rivet.

      Any patent has an expiration date ...
      This is me about AK
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 12 February 2021 13: 07
    0
    We disagree, this is not a new GTE, but the existing one will be digitized.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 12 February 2021 13: 40
      +1
      Again, this is working with iron, not improving the process and increasing the result.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 12 February 2021 13: 16
    +10
    To begin with, it would be nice to clearly explain what a digital twin is.
    This is not a 3D model and not a CAD drawing or digitization, it is much more complicated and interesting.
    A digital twin is a virtual copy of a real object or process, which contains all data about it, including history and information about the current state.
    Interactive analysis of this data using Big Data technologies allows you to receive accurate information about the functioning of an object, predict future states using predictive analytics ML-models, and remotely manage an object in real time.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 12 February 2021 13: 47
      -4
      A digital twin? This requires full-scale tests with the removal of data from the object using sensors and data transmission from the sensors to create a digital twin.
      The article says -
      As explained, a digital twin is a mathematical model that contains complete product data. With the help of this development, it is possible to carry out various tests at all stages of the creation and life cycle of the engine, which significantly reduces the time and cost of designing, creating prototypes, testing and fine-tuning the power plant.

      Managers probably don't understand the rationale behind digital twinning. A stand and an engine covered with sensors should have been shown. Where is the original to create the double?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 12 February 2021 13: 55
        +7
        Managers probably don't understand the rationale behind digital twinning.
        The one who wrote the note too.
        A stand and an engine covered with sensors should have been shown
        This will already be the Digital Twin Aggregate - the final stage in the creation of a digital twin, a system that unites all digital twins and their real prototypes, allowing data to be collected and exchanged in real time.
        What the post says is Digital Twin Prototype. The DTP twin does not require an "original", it contains the information needed to describe and create physical versions of product instances. This information includes geometric and structural models, specifications and conditions; cost model, design (design) and technological model of the product. The DTP twin can be considered a conditionally permanent virtual product model.
      2. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 15: 29
        +3
        Quote: Konnick
        Where is the original to create the double?

        At the booth ... But here you are too ... wrong. Bench tests with sensors are needed to verify that the digital twin matches the real product. A digital twin is a matmodel of a virtual engine corresponding to a certain real one. But in a computer, you can "drive" it on the limiting and transcendental parameters, bring it to destruction - which you will never do on a real stand.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 February 2021 14: 04
    -3
    Quote: Undecim
    What the post says is Digital Twin Prototype. The DTP twin does not require an "original", it contains the information needed to describe and create physical versions of product instances. This information includes geometric and structural models, specifications and conditions; cost model, design (design) and technological model of the product. The DTP twin can be considered a conditionally permanent virtual product model.

    Well then, we are ahead of the rest. Especially pleasing is the determination of value using a digital twin. The first twins were still used in simulating a flight to the moon, but full-scale objects were used there. And what you are writing about is still perspective and for this you need supercomputers.
    Also from the Internet:
    The digital twin of a product is a very complex virtual model that is an exact analogue (or twin) of a physical thing. The product can be a car, tunnel, bridge, or even a jet engine. Sensors on a physical object collect data that can be matched to a virtual model.

    The virtual analog is a vital tool in helping engineers understand not only how products work, but also how they will work in the future. The analysis of data from connected sensors in combination with other sources of information allows such predictions to be made.

    Virtual models give manufacturers an idea of ​​how their products work. An electronic duplicate is needed to identify potential faults, troubleshoot from afar, and ultimately improve customer satisfaction.

    I will add, all these programs are Microsoft products. Nothing that the "Americans" did, and I'm not sure about the availability of these programs in the UEC.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 12 February 2021 15: 19
      +3
      I will add, all these programs are Microsoft products.
      ??
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 15: 24
        -2
        The first use of the term "Digital Twin" originated in a 2010 NASA report on modeling and simulation (https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/501321main_TA11-MSITPDRAFT-Nov2010-A1.pdf). The technique described in the report was developed in view of the need to construct an ultra-realistic simulation of a spacecraft during construction, testing and flights.

        Working with digital twins requires the combined efforts of a wide variety of people - and not just technical ones - as today's exponential technology solutions thrive in a collaborative environment. The new surge of interest in digital twins, which began last year, will only grow in the future. The first examples of the implementation of modern digital twins have already been presented, and we can expect new ones from day to day. Some technology providers already have digital twins on their platforms, such as Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/services/digital-twins/

        This is from the Internet. Article from September 2020. See https://habr.com/ru/company/luxoft/blog/519218/
        What are domestic programs?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 12 February 2021 15: 26
          +5
          And where is that all these programs are a Microsoft product ?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 12 February 2021 15: 50
            -3
            Name other programs for creating doubles. And nothing that the link leads to Microsoft?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 12 February 2021 18: 53
              +4
              And nothing that the link leads to Microsoft?
              Absolutely nothing. Microsoft doesn't do that kind of thing.
              Try to read the articles for understanding by the link, for example, https://controleng.ru/innovatsii/cifrovye-dvojniki/podhod-ibm/.
    2. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 12 February 2021 15: 33
      +3
      Quote: Konnick
      I will add, all these programs are Microsoft products. Nothing that the "Americans" did and I'm not sure about the availability of these programs in the UEC

      Or maybe Indian programmers did it? Who did Microsoft hire? Or even ours?
      Somehow recently, the boundaries and nationality of companies have blurred.
    3. ZEMCH
      ZEMCH 12 February 2021 17: 21
      +2
      Quote: Konnick
      I will add, all these programs are Microsoft products. Nothing that the "Americans" did and I'm not sure about the availability of these programs in the UEC

      Programs, a product from the structures of Rosatom, a supercomputer of their own
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 17: 31
        -4
        There is such a computer, I’ll tell you a secret, this one is super in Sarov and there is a queue for it, it’s busy creating mathematical models that simulate prohibited nuclear tests. But in OKD, I doubt its presence.
        1. ZEMCH
          ZEMCH 12 February 2021 17: 46
          +3
          In the structure of Rosatom, more than one SK has long been)))
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 12 February 2021 19: 48
            -2
            The rest are rather weak compared to Sarov. The most powerful in Sberbank. There is no supercomputer in the UEC for working as a digital twin.
  • aars
    aars 12 February 2021 15: 17
    +1
    The fact that in the photo is more like a presentation.
    And as usual, no details.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 12 February 2021 15: 27
      -3
      Nice photo, there is an aeronautic diploma in the background, we will soon digitize balloons.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 February 2021 15: 50
      -1
      The photo at the beginning is not connected with the topic at all, so they just stuck it.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 12 February 2021 16: 05
        -3
        How not connected? And below the diploma of the aeronaut there is an inscription UEC-Saturn, and an article about them.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 12 February 2021 16: 48
          -1
          The article is generally not about them about creating an engine using digital twin technology "Digital twin is a new word in modeling and production planning - a single model that reliably describes all processes and relationships both at a separate facility and within a whole production asset in the form of virtual installations and simulation models, thus creating a virtual copy of the physical world.

          The use of a digital twin, which is an exact copy of a real asset, helps to quickly simulate the development of events depending on certain conditions and factors, find the most effective operating modes, identify potential risks, integrate new technologies into existing production lines, and reduce the time and cost of project implementation. In addition, the digital twin helps identify steps to ensure safety.

          Modern technologies make it possible to build digital twins of absolutely any production assets, be it an oil refinery or a logistics company. In the future, these technologies will allow remote control of the entire production process in real time. On the basis of the digital twin, all systems and models used for planning and managing production activities can be combined, which will increase the transparency of processes, the accuracy and speed of decision-making.

          The digital twin can also be considered as an electronic product passport, which records all data on raw materials, materials, operations performed, tests and laboratory research. This means that all information, from drawings and production technology to rules for maintenance and disposal, will be digitized and available for reading by devices and people. This principle allows you to monitor and guarantee the quality of products, to provide effective service. "
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 12 February 2021 16: 54
            -3
            This is you from the advertising article of the corporate magazine "Sibirskaya Neft" PJSC "Gazprom Neft", what the latest programs they use. This article is about the engine, but without a full-scale sample with the removal of parameters, this is not yet possible. And the UEC is wishful thinking, in fact they are creating a simple digital model, not a digital twin.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 12 February 2021 17: 15
              0
              Algorithm for creating a digital motor twin The motor is first designed in the traditional way, requirements are prepared, and system design procedures are followed. It is then modeled in a CAD program. And when the engines are made in the factory, digital twins are born with them. A digital twin is created for each physical engine at the time of production and becomes an exact digital copy of it. The digital twin then goes through all stages of the life cycle of the physical engine. Ideally, the digital twin of the engine exactly matches its physical twin and reproduces its state at any time throughout its entire service life. In other words, the digital twin appears when the engine is created, develops and changes during the maintenance and modernization of the physical product, and at the end of its service life it is decommissioned along with it. The digital representation allows the physical engine to be controlled throughout its life. Thus, customers receive a complete product lifecycle management technology. The engine may be used more actively than expected, it may require repair or replacement of parts, something else may happen - all this will reflect the digital twin. It is worth noting that the engine can independently collect and send various data to developers and even perform self-diagnostics. In this case, the digital twin will allow the customer to “see” the physical engine and get complete information about it. There are many views available for digital twins, reflecting different subsets of the data. Both traditional information panels and information display in the context of 3D models, as well as in augmented reality mode are supported. An augmented reality view can include sensor readings, PLM information, service instructions, and even information from other systems, such as owner records from a CRM system, etc.
  • notingem
    notingem 13 February 2021 09: 45
    0
    The next step is to create a mathematical model of a butter roll
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 14 February 2021 21: 05
      -1
      The next stage is CAD combined with AI.