Military Review

"Ichthyosaurus" and others. Electric torpedoes - new and old

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"Ichthyosaurus" and others. Electric torpedoes - new and old
Torpedoes "Ichthyosaurus". And their loading on the submarine of project 06363 in Sevastopol.


January 25, 2021 in the "Military-Industrial Courier" was released interview of the General Director of the TRV Corporation B.V. Obnosov:

In 2020, we completed state tests of the first Russian electric torpedo.

In the USSR, they were produced, but with less high performance characteristics.

Today, the first serial samples of new electric torpedoes have already entered service with the Russian Navy.

They are significantly superior to Western models in terms of noiselessness, range, immersion depth and target detection range by the homing system.

That is, it is stated:

- tests have been completed, serial deliveries to the fleet are underway;
- allegedly "superiority in low noise" over western torpedoes;
- allegedly the range of our torpedo is "greater";
- our detection range is also supposedly higher.

All this (except that the series of "Ichthyosaurs" has gone) is not true.

It should be understood that Obnosov is not just a top manager of the military-industrial complex, but an experienced missile engineer and leader who really does business and plows at work.

Usually in his speeches in the media, Boris Viktorovich is neat and accurate
... And there can be only one explanation for such a public lie about torpedoes: misinformation of himself from his subordinates.

This primarily applies to the leadership of the State Scientific and Production Enterprise "Region", about examples of "public amnesia" which has already been written in the article "AICR" Severodvinsk "surrendered to the Navy with critical deficiencies for combat readiness".

Earlier on the subject of "Ichthyosaurus" the author of the article already wrote:

2012 year. Competition will provide effective weapons.

2015 year. Will the Ichthyosaurus Fleet Receive?

2019 year. Ichthyosaurus at the home stretch.

2020 year. "Ichthyosaur" has passed State tests.

But the "Ichthyosaurus issue" cannot be considered without the general situation in our torpedo industry in general and electric torpedo construction in particular.

Let's start with an interview with the Chief Designer of Ichthyosaurus - Technical Director of Dagdizel JSC S. M. Asaliev ( link):

The Dagdizel plant will present at the International Naval Salon the UET-1E torpedo, created within the framework of the Ichthyosaur R&D Center. The executive director of the enterprise Sultanahmed Asaliev told FlotProm about this.

According to him, the 533-mm torpedo surpasses the development of Gidropribor - TE2-02.

“This is a completely digital product, there are a lot of innovations in it, and not all of them can be talked about openly,” Asaliev said. "The export version of the torpedo is somewhat more modest in terms of characteristics than the one we offer for a domestic customer."

In some performance characteristics, the Ichthyosaur really surpasses the Gidropribor torpedo.

We are talking, in particular, about a longer cruising range (the maximum indicator of the Dagdizel torpedo is 25 km versus 18 km for the TE2-02), a higher speed (50 knots versus 48) and a better detection range for underwater targets (up to 3,5 km against 1,5). In addition, the Ichthyosaurus is capable of detecting the wake of surface ships with a lifespan of up to 500 seconds. It also has the ability to stepless speed control - unlike the Gidropribor torpedoes.

Thus, it is declared about the real achievement of the characteristics: a speed of 50 knots per 25 km, a response radius of 3,5 km and ensuring the detection of more than 8 minutes of the target's wake.

The problem is that it looks good only against the background of the wretched and pitiful torpedo of the Gidropribor TE-2, but when compared with other western torpedoes, there is somehow no reason to be overjoyed.

Note. On western heavy torpedoes (submarines), back in 2015, the author (based on some of his own analytical work) wrote an article for the "Arsenal of the Fatherland" "On the appearance of modern submarine torpedoes." In terms of the level and complexity of the consideration of the topic, there are simply no close analogues of this article. Link on it on "VO".

It is also worth mentioning an article in the magazine "Arms Export" "Domestic torpedo weapons on the world market" (she on the site "VO").

The article is not ideal, there are some inaccuracies (very small), but taking into account the specifics of the topic and setting, it is unlikely that deeper work will appear in public in the mid-term.


In short, our torpedoes have the following problems and features.

First. Range (stroke) of torpedoes


Let's use the table of transport characteristics of torpedoes in the article "On the appearance of modern torpedoes of submarines" and add UET-1E:


It is obvious that modern western torpedoes UET-1E not only do not surpass, but at least lose twice (to such models as DM2A4, F21). It should be borne in mind that UET-1E weighs much more than the western 53 cm torpedoes.

Accordingly, if they are “loaded” with batteries up to the weight of UET-1E (de facto this has already been done in the DM2A4ER), the lag in performance characteristics of our “newest” torpedo will be simply devastating. Moreover, the DM2A4 (including the battery and the engine) was developed in the early 2000s.

As for the 22 kilometers range of the Italian Black Shark (at 52 knots), this is provided by a single combat / practical lithium polymer battery (more on it below). When installing the same Al-AgO battery, Black Shark gets the same 50/50 (kilometers per knots) as on the F21.

The reason for such a huge backlog of domestic electric torpedoes is antediluvian batteries, and in fact, a complete lack of work on a real perspective. Even in the publicized "super torpedo of the XXI century" (and in fact - a scam) "Lomonos" "Gidropribor" proposed the use of a battery, the design of which was developed in the United States in the middle of the XX century (but in the maximum configuration - according to the permissible dimensions) and from the use of which on The West was abandoned back in the late 60s.

At the round table on naval underwater weapons ("Army-2015"):

“An extremely acute topic was raised in his report by SV Smolkov, the technical director of ZAO Elektroistochnik, - the complete absence of modern R&D on promising torpedo batteries (both combat and practical).

In fact, today the technical level of the batteries used by the Navy corresponds to the western fifties and sixties of the last century (an open-cycle water-activated battery, the design of which we borrowed from the American Mk44 torpedo of the late 50s).

Moreover, Gidropribor wanted to use such a battery in a promising product of the 21st century!

Torpedo batteries are one of the most critical issues in the domestic torpedo industry.

And this problem will not be solved without appropriate state funding and setting a task. "

I note that the reaction to this speech by the representatives of the Navy at the round table was:

- These are “not our problems,” so let the Ministry of Industry and Trade deal with this.

For Al-AgO batteries, in general, we had only an experimental installation at the Central Research Institute named after V.I. Krylov (moreover, about which, over the years, everyone has already forgotten).


Are these problems recognized by domestic specialists?

Yes and no. More on this below.

But first, a little stories.

"Gidropriborovtsy" Ph.D. THEM. Sobolev, Doctor of Technical Sciences E.L. Kabanets, Ph.D. S.K. Egorov, V.D. Oblyapin, B.A. Kaznakov, N.P. Ostrovsky "Stages and problems of the development of a torpedo weapons":

By the end of the 60s, the VNIAI Institute developed torpedo batteries based on a silver-zinc alkaline electrochemical system.

In terms of specific parameters and performance, batteries with such batteries were twice as high as lead-acid ones.

With sufficiently high specific parameters (60 ... 80 Wh / kg), the batteries of such an electrochemical system still had a significant drawback - the shelf life in the prepared state was 15-30 days, which is clearly not enough when used in combat torpedoes.

It is worth noting here that such batteries in combat torpedoes were still used in our country, and in large quantities.

Torpedo SET-53M (details "Torpedo SET-53: Soviet" totalitarian ", but real"), with all the problems of its operation on a scale fleetassociated with the need for almost monthly (maximum 3 months) replacement of these torpedoes in ammunition and their re-preparation.

Late 50s - early 60s:

The Central Research Institute "Gidropribor" together with the enterprises VNIAI and VNIIT have developed disposable current sources of a silver-zinc electrochemical system, in which dry-charged cells with separate electrolyte storage were used.

The design ... provided for individual filling of each element from the ampoule located on top.

These are batteries of type A-187M, A-455, A-222U, which were part of the ESU (electrical power plants) of the SET-65, TEST-71M, AT-2, AT-2UM and AT-2M torpedoes.

These batteries have a shelf life of 8 years.

Note. In connection with the apparently insufficient assigned service life of such batteries, serious work was carried out to increase it, up to 13 years. Then serious problems began. On the "electrical part" (for those interested), they were described in sufficient detail in a number of public works of Ukrainian specialists (on the extension of torpedoes of the Ukrainian Navy). However, the problem is deeper and more serious - a real "barrier" for old batteries was laid in the electromechanical control system of torpedoes. Due to the heavy electric motor of our torpedoes, the center of gravity is shifted to the stern, and accordingly, with an increase in the cocking time of the old battery, not only did the "starting bag" sharply increase, but the torpedo began to "fall aft." Further - the gyroscopes "sat on the frame", with the loss of the starting coordinate system by the torpedo. As a result, there were even cases of aiming our own (old) electric torpedoes at our shooting submarines.

Separately, it is necessary to say about the safety problem of electric torpedoes with transported electrolyte (ampoule filling). Writes by the former deputy head of the Anti-submarine weapons department of the Navy R.A. Gusev:

In May 1968, the American nuclear submarine Scorpion was lost ...

American experts then already knew that the reason for the death of the boat was the unauthorized activation of the power battery of the MK-37 electric torpedo, which led to the torpedo heating and the explosion of its combat charging compartment.

All electric torpedoes with single-action batteries were excluded from the ammunition load of American ships ...

The Americans relied on the MK-48 thermal torpedo and did it with some kind of frenzy: modernization after modernization, a lot of control firings, bells and whistles ...

God had mercy on us. We had plenty of "hot" torpedoes on submarines (MGT-1, SAET-60). And not only on submarines. In the mid-seventies, two SET-65 combat torpedoes even caught fire on the Boyky BPK, which were immediately fired. The ship was in the Atlantic under the supervision of the American aircraft carrier "Hermes" ...

The reason was gross violations of the torpedo operating instructions ...

The batteries were burning. It is better not to see how they burn.

We will return to the issue of security below. With an emphasis on today.

The next step in the torpedo power industry (1970–1980) was the creation of a new generation of current sources - water-activated (VHIT).

In such power sources, outboard sea water is used as an electrolyte. The anode material of VHIT is a special magnesium-based alloy, and the cathodic material is silver chloride. Subsequently, the cathode material was replaced by copper chloride.

These works allowed to drastically reduce the use of scarce materials (silver). VHIT have higher, in comparison with disposable power sources of a silver-zinc system, specific parameters (100 ... 120 Wh / kg), simplicity of design and ease of use.

The shelf life of VHIT ... is now 10-15 years.


The design of the VHIT torpedo TE2 (almost completely borrowed from USET-80)

Domestic VHIT has such a disadvantage as the dependence of the discharge characteristics, and therefore the power of the ESU, on the area of ​​use (salinity and temperature of outboard sea water).

This is primarily due to the fact that when developing the design of the VHIT at the first stage of work, a simple hydraulic scheme with an open flow system was adopted instead of a semi-closed system with an automatic device for maintaining the electrical conductivity of the electrolyte at a given level.

Alas, the sad irony of these words of specialists is that the simplest scheme adopted at the first stage has remained the only one and unrepeatable for us (I remind you that even in Lomonosov XXI Century Gidropribor was going to repeat it).

At the same time, in a number of theaters and regions, the use of torpedoes with our VHIT is impossible. For example, in the Baltic, they simply do not have enough salinity.


Left: semi-closed diagram of the Italian torpedo A-244 (we have nothing of the kind), right: experimental Al-AgO battery at KGNTs (2007)

In fact, the only type of practical batteries for torpedoes in the Navy are silver-zinc, with an electrolyte already filled during preparation. These batteries are well mastered, however, they have a limited shelf life in a flooded state (several months) and a very small number of shots that can be fired by them during this time.

An attempt to enter this topic from lithium-ion batteries became the Ministry of Industry and Trade topic "Lion", which was strictly written in the article "We'll see!" On the importance of the media and publicity of "burning" issues ".


The reader may have a logical question:

"What, in general, is going on with us ?!"

The question is not idle. What was above - "flowers".

And now the "berries".

"Just a document" - Decision of the Arbitration Court dated October 28, 2015 in case No. А40-110983 / 2015... In fact, this is a quote from document No. Yu / 1-29 an. chipboard. from 28.11.2014, the military prosecutor's office of the Northern Fleet:

OJSC "Concern" MPO-Gidropribor "within the framework of the ROC" Kant "tested the DP-31U engine for its operability after the expiration of its service life with its extension for 15 years ...

Replacing the DP-31U engine on old 2503 products with a new EPV-390 engine is impractical, this replacement leads to an unjustified increase in the cost of the contract and additional budgetary costs.

According to the product developer 2503, OJSC "Concern" PMO-Gidropribor "... only needs to lubricate ...

USET-80 torpedoes are equipped with digital assault rifles TsA28-05, TsA28-08, a control unit B-21, steering gears (RM), head compartments with homing equipment modules, and other units in which ERIs with expired service life are used.

Components with electronic components are subject to unambiguous replacement or re-certification exclusively by the manufacturers.

So, in 2015, the military prosecutor's office of the Northern Fleet, "twists the arms" of the performer (and knowingly disrupting the state defense order and the provision of torpedoes to the fleet) with the requirement

"Recertification exclusively by the manufacturer."

Here is this plant (according to the product management system):

Public Joint Stock Partnership "Science-Virobniche ob'yednannya" Kiev Automation Plant ".
Post address that misce znakhozhennya: st. Starokiivska, 10, metro Kiev, 04116, Ukraine

Let me emphasize that this is happening in 2014-2015!

Moreover, the author is sure that the employees of the SF prosecutor's office who participated in this perfectly understood everything. Therefore, the "ДСП" is deliberately put on their document. To make it extremely difficult to appeal against their actions (for "especially vigilant" - the document is in the public domain in the databases of the Arbitration Courts).

And here is the materiel in question (link).


And steering cars ( link).


Yes, it looks like unreal nonsense.

Military Prosecutor's Office of the Northern Fleet in 2014–2015 requires the involvement of enterprises and specialists of Ukraine in the repair of torpedoes ammunition! Moreover, it requires absolutely illegally, because for such cases a standard "fallback" option is provided:

"Head organization by type of activity in the Russian Federation."

And the meaning (or rather intent) in this "game" actually is.

"Interest".

For the preservation of the DP-31U clearly requires the replacement of an extremely expensive disposable battery (which, obviously, was lobbied for).

But the installation of a modern BPPM engine (which was proposed by Dagdizel) allowed not only to extend the service life of the USET-80 torpedo with the old battery, but also opened up the possibility of its subsequent effective modernization (since the old DP-31U engine had just a terrible level of interference, imposing significant restrictions on new equipment, and a huge drop in its efficiency made the use of new powerful batteries meaningless).

And one more "cherry".

Serial production of the ancient (whose chief designer died in 1969) DP-31U "Gidropribor" resumed, technologies "recreated". And, moreover, this "antique item" should be installed on the supposedly new torpedoes "Kant", which "Gidropribor" wants to make the fleet happy with.

It has already been written many times, but it is worth repeating again. Specialists and the ex-general director of Gidropribor stated literally about the SSN "Kant":

"We are completing the work started at the end of the 80s."

The Kant battery is actually an American design of the mid-40s. last century, the chief designer of the engine died in 1969.

Telecontrol? As the saying goes,

"We will not use boatswain speed",

and without them, you cannot say for sure about this.

We add that there is reason to believe that the "Kant" (which is "very persistently offered" to the fleet) did not have a single shot at all in combat configuration (with a combat battery). The developer stubbornly drove torpedoes with two practical batteries (separately for the equipment and the engine. The reason was the “interference” from the engine to the equipment, which they could not “defeat”). Only now a combat torpedo has one battery (like all normal practical torpedoes, except for the "Kant") with a separate outlet for the instrument circuit.

Read more - "Will the fleet get Ichthyosaurus?"

There are more banal examples:

10.08.2015/XNUMX/XNUMX The Chelyabinsk plant "Uralelement" will produce torpedo batteries for ships and submarines of the Russian Navy.

Previously, these components were supplied by the Ukrainian company Luhansk accumulators ...

By mid-autumn, the plant intends to increase production to 11–12 batteries per year in accordance with the contract, TASS reports.

The exact amount of the contract and the delivery time are unknown, but the director of the plant mentioned that more than 200 million rubles were invested in the production.

Formally, this is "import substitution" (money is given for it!).

But why "import substitute" for long-outdated products developed in the late 50s - early 60s, if there are already new and modern ones? That is, instead of carrying out a quick modernization of ships for the "Package", "the development of budgetary funds" was arranged on ancient and long-lost combat capability of torpedoes and their batteries.

In this case, unambiguously on unsafe batteries. The design and production technology of such batteries at their manufacturer in the USSR - the Lugansk accumulator plant - was developed for a very long time, with a number of serious accidents in the fleet with these batteries. Therefore, the presence of SET-65 torpedoes with new batteries, for example, in the BOD project 1155 torpedo tubes in the hot conditions of the southern seas, is, to put it mildly, annoying (as is their proximity to the ancient 53-65K).

I repeat - this is all in the presence of a more or less complete, safe "Package", which has a very high combat effectiveness (in contrast to the incapacitated "torpedo firewood" SET-65).

And all this is not the fault of the director of Uralelement. Reviews of honest and responsible specialists about him are quite positive. He just

"Acted within the framework of the existing system"

(although it would be more correct to call all this "torpedo trash" "anti-system").

And what about the so-called partners?

The main type of combat batteries is Al-AgO, with which modern western electric torpedoes have surpassed thermal (unitary fuel) in terms of transport characteristics, VHIT with a semi-closed cycle (A-244 and Stingray). For old types of torpedoes, jellied SDSABs are still used (for example, for the Mk37 torpedo, since replacing the ESU with a thermal one for submarines with self-exiting torpedoes is impossible due to the fact that poisonous gases will remain in the torpedo tube).

Recently, there has been a tendency to create universal (single combat and practical) lithium polymer batteries (for example, the Black Shark torpedo). Despite the fact that the loss in range (from Al-AgO batteries) is actually twofold, the meaning of such batteries is to provide a large number of practical torpedo firing (Black Shark more than 100) at a minimum cost for the most effective development of torpedo weapons by personnel.


Black Shark universal lithium polymer torpedo battery.

Second. Low noise


First, just a quote ( link):

The reasons for the development of electric torpedoes in European countries (Mk-24, DM2, SUT, F-17, etc.) are less noise (in comparison with heat ones), the possibility of a covert attack, "silent assassination".

However, low noise in no way related to our electric torpedoes.

Moreover, they thundered significantly louder than the western heat ones.

Yes, the noise level of UET-1 is much lower than that of USET-80. And here is the possibility of a smooth change in stroke (up to low-noise small, - with reliable preservation of controllability of a heavily overweight product), and low vibration activity of the new BPMM engine, and increased accuracy of parts manufacturing.

Among other things, this makes it possible to significantly increase the detection range at low-noise travel (up to "values ​​close to record").

Only here is "one but".

The statements about "superiority in low noise" over western torpedoes, to put it mildly, have no basis. Yes, in terms of broadband noise, we will most likely be close at low speeds.

The problem is that for many decades the decisive factor has been the level of narrowband rather than broadband noise.

And in our torpedo building, the attitude to this problem is like in "kindergarten" ("I'm in the house"): they, as a rule, are simply do not measure! Or they measure ("for themselves"), but they write broadband in the documents.

At the same time, at the same time in special open literature (publicly available) such exclusive issues of narrow-band noise noise of torpedoes as "current diagnostics of the operation of torpedo mechanisms" in a mode close to real-time based on its narrow-band noise are discussed.

Thus, the fact that we have “the forest is going” (with “peaks” of large excess of “emissions” of discrete over broadband noise) is known to all specialists. However, they pretend that "they are in the house."

Below are photographs of the tails of the torpedoes "Ichthyosaur" (RF), DM2A4 (FRG), Black Shark (Italy):


Obviously, the Ichthyosaur has largely retained the design solutions for the USET-80 torpedo tail, with which there can be no question of achieving the stealth levels of new western torpedoes.

I would like to emphasize that it is impossible to blame the Ichthyosaurus developers for this "flaw".

They already did 102% of the possible to reduce noise in conditions of extremely poor funding and the most difficult overall organization of ROC. But it is also wrong and wrong to declare an alleged "superiority" over western torpedoes (also because recognizing one's own shortcomings is the first step towards correcting them).

Third. Homing and telecontrol systems


An extremely scandalous fact for our torpedo construction took place in December 2018. Vietnamese fishermen caught a practical Chinese-made torpedo (most likely a Yu-9).


From an article in "NVO" "Torpedoes of the Great Neighbor" :

The creation of the Yu-2004 torpedo by 6 was the undisputed success of the Chinese developers and brought them to the level of the most modern requirements for this weapon ... Data on the subsequent Chinese heavy torpedoes Yu-8 (2006), Yu-9 (2012) and Yu-10 (2014) ) differ and do not have reliable reference to specific samples.

At the same time, there is reliable information about the creation of an electric low-noise torpedo (outwardly close to the Black Shark and F21 torpedoes).

For the first time, a new torpedo "hit the shot" when Chinese President Xi Jinping visited a nuclear submarine in 2018. Obviously, the same torpedo was caught by a Vietnamese fisherman at the end of 2018.

At the same time, the Chinese media mentioned that "the electric torpedo entered service in 2012", and also indicated the introduction of fiber-optic telecontrol in torpedoes since 2010.

It can be assumed that the Yu-8, taking into account the year of its creation (2006), is a turbine, high-speed version of the Yu-6 torpedo, the Yu-9 is an electric torpedo, and the Yu-10 is a deep modernization of the Yu-6.

Taking into account the simply antique level of our TE2 (previously supplied by the Russian Federation to Vietnam in the ammunition load of the Project 6363 submarine), the foreign customer had very serious questions about what kind of "torpedo firewood" was "sold" to him ...

The situation is really very scandalous, with potential extremely bad consequences for our military exports. And initially there were chances that measures for urgent revision and elimination of critical shortcomings of our export torpedoes would be taken.

However, the scandal was "extinguished". And we (because tough questions immediately arose about the officials who participated in the scam for the supply of "torpedo firewood" to Vietnam).

Foreign customer? And he was left with very bad questions about us. First of all, due to the extremely low level of the homing system (HSS) and telecontrol (TU) of the TE2 torpedoes.

Of course, the very fact that the main SSN of naval torpedoes (and in fact the only export one - TE2) is still equipment copied from the American torpedo of 1961 (caught at sea in 1965) looks just like unreal nonsense. Alas, these are facts, and the "game" is that some of our developers also manage to be proud of this.

From their anniversary edition ("60 years of the Central Research Institute" Gidropribor "), literally:

“We were gladdened by their successes… homing agents… completing their cycle of full-scale tests of the Kolibri torpedo (product 294, caliber 324 mm, 1973) with SSN, reproduced on the domestic element base…

This SSN "Keramika" has broken all records of longevity.

There is practically no torpedo left where this SSN was not installed as an anti-submarine SSN during modernization. "

At the same time, Gidropribor was unable to carry out even any serious modernization of Keramika.

This was done by TNK Dastan (Kyrgyzstan). In fact, our developers, with normal digitalization of the CLS, the introduction of new signals and ensuring confident operation in the shallow sea. The real radius of the CLN response has practically doubled. Moreover, based on the results of this work, solutions were found that ensured the massive modernization of all torpedoes with "Ceramics" in the Navy by replacing cassettes (and in the conditions of fleets). 8 successful torpedo shots were fired from this CLO, and the topic was buried.


If the pilots had someone proposed to arm the Su-57 with a missile "reproduced at a domestic base" from the "Phantom" shot down in Vietnam, he would definitely be advised to go through the military medical commission again. With a psychiatrist. However, on the "valiant Navy" the ancient "torpedo firewood" USET-80 with "Ceramics" (and the older SSN "Waterfall") on the "newest" AICR project 955 "Borey" are considered "in the order of things."

The above words of the developer on "Ceramics" were published almost fifteen years ago. Recently there was another anniversary (75 years). In the book they did not write happily about "Keramika". However, at the IMDS-2019 naval show, "Ceramics" was presented (on the TE2 torpedo). Moreover, when looking at the photos of IMDS-2019, several interesting pictures were found (from the portal "Bastion VPK").


The photo shows an active discussion between Obnosov B.N., Krylov I.V. ("Region") and Tikhonov G.B. ("Gidropribor") is just the "problematic issues of the Ichthyosaurus." “By materiel” - in the pictures are our heavy torpedoes UGST and TE-2 (with comments on their specifications in the sidebars).

G.B. Tikhonov is an old and experienced torpedo operator, a very strong professional. Not long ago he was gone ... And, having remembered him, it would be honest and correct to say about this person “as is”.

The author has been personally familiar with him since 2003. There were different things. For example, article "An example of unfounded criticism", one of the signatories of which was Gleb Borisovich. Given that my article "Marine underwater weapons: problems and opportunities" in two parts - Part 1 и Part 2 he had read it before it was published. And he had no serious objections.
When I read it, it was not. And then:

"I didn't think you'd decide to print it!"

The specified articles are 2010. As well as my "response shot" to the "Hydraulic device response" - "Marine underwater weapon-2: arguments and facts"... However, they are still relevant (including to compare the situation “today and ten years ago”).

Remembering G.B. Tikhonov, one cannot but say that he was a participant in the work on the "Kursk". And it was he (signed "torpedo operator Ivanov") who gave the media information about the presence of traces of local high-temperature impact on the wreckage of the 65-76A practical torpedo. Conscience did not allow him to remain silent.

After talking with Obnosov and Krylov, I spoke with Gleb Borisovich:

- The Ichthyosaurus has problems ...!

- Of course, this is a complex technical system, which, despite significant positive statistics of successful application, did not pass the required volume of tests. Accordingly, there are flaws there. Simply because in these conditions they cannot but exist. By the way, it would be very useful to carry out comparative tests with "Kant". I even sketched their program and methodology. Everything is fair. Including with the closest possible to real and "hard" use of the AGPD.

- “Kant” and “Ichthyosaurus” cannot be simply compared with each other!

- Well, Gleb Borisovich, you yourself said everything ... Some are ready and eager for comparative shooting, while others are like hares, trying to avoid them.

Speaking about the deliberately insufficient statistics of tests (firing), it is worth recalling the words of an experienced naval torpedo operator, ex-head of the torpedo operation department of the Institute of Weapons of the Navy L.M. Bozina “The price of a torpedo crew. To ensure the combat capability of the Navy, the cost of testing and shooting is important ":

A serious drawback in the development of torpedoes in the USSR is the small volume of tests, as a result of which this type of weapon was produced with serious flaws.

The massive use of torpedoes during combat training was in fact a continuation of state tests.

In the first five to six years of the development of this weapon by the Navy, serious shortcomings are discovered and various modifications are made, including to achieve the technical characteristics declared during the development. There are many examples of this.

When the Americans were developing the Mk-48, they fired more than a thousand shots during the tests, thanks to which they discovered and eliminated all the shortcomings, and launched it into series.

Our analogue of this torpedo, USET-80, had just over a hundred test shots. Therefore, perhaps, despite the 15-year development period, he was born prematurely with six acute problems.

In the case of "Ichthyosaurus" everything was even more complicated by intrigues, "setups" and not always fair competition.

In the statement of B.V. Obnosov sounded supposedly

"Superiority in detection range"

at our new torpedo. However, everything is much more complicated.

Speaking about the homing range, it is necessary to "clarify the terminology."

Firstly, specialists use the term "response radius" of the homing system (Rssn). And secondly, (and this is the main thing) today Rssn is not the defining tactical parameter of the CLS (in fact, this is a technical requirement for ensuring the detection of a given target under certain standard conditions), because its noise immunity (and the classification range ( Dl) goals).


From the article "Destroy the attacking torpedo":

The issue of introducing anti-torpedoes is especially important today, given the significant backlog of passive means of protection - hydroacoustic countermeasures (SGPD) - from the capabilities of modern torpedoes and their homing systems.

Taking into account the unconditional secrecy of these issues, it is advisable to outline only the fundamental points.

The noise immunity of the homing system of a torpedo is determined by three key parameters: noise immunity from barrage interference from powerful jammers or jammers according to the western classification; distance classification of real goals and simulators (decoy - according to the Western classification); the number of accompanied (analyzed) goals.

Before the advent of digital CCHs, the noise immunity of all CCHs of autonomous torpedoes was insufficient.

The timely use of even such ineffective means of PTZ, such as gas curtains and mechanical noise emitters, provided good evasion probabilities for the attacked submarine. Under these conditions, telecontrol became the main factor in ensuring the immunity of the salvo in the West. The surface ships of the US Navy and NATO, in the overwhelming majority did not have remote-controlled torpedoes, received a very large ammunition load of torpedoes and anti-submarine missiles to carry out multiple submarine attacks ...

Digital CLOs, which appeared in the 1990s, made it possible to significantly increase the protection of CLOs against obstacle interference, but this had little effect on the actual classification distances of targets.

In fact, at this stage of development, the response radii of heavy torpedo launchers reached 3–5 km, however, a set of classification features of a narrow-band SSV worked steadily at distances of less than 1 km.

Thus, a huge "window" was formed between the detection distance and the classification distance (about 25–30% of the detection distance), in which submarine simulators could be used very effectively. "

The transition on western torpedoes to broadband SSNs began in the early 2000s, for example, the report of the UDT-2001 conference (20 years ago):

“Specialists of BAE Systems and the Defense Research Directorate of the British Ministry of Defense carried out ... in relation to the Spearflsh torpedo:

- processing of a broadband signal (in active and passive modes);

- use of a more complex waveform envelope;

- the hidden mode of the active location;

- adaptive beamforming;

- classification using neural networks.

On tests it was revealed that using a wide band (about an octave) allows you to increase the efficiency of separating the useful signal against the background noise

A complex randomly filled signal envelope and a wide frequency bandwidth are used to detect targets using low-power radiation.

In this case, the radiation of the torpedo is not detected by the target.

However, the work on them did not go very well (because the broadband CCH "collects a shovel" to the running hindrance). But "this is not about us." For the topic of broadband CLOs requires a very large amount of complex R&D and expensive experimental work (the US Navy fired more than 3 shots only for testing version 48 of the Mk7 mod300 torpedo software. I emphasize, this is not for the entire modification, but only for revision of 3 software versions). And all serious research and development work on "torpedo heads" were "stabbed" in our country back in the late 2000s.

And here it is worth quoting “Our Pentagon Wars. The realities of our military R&D "

“The positive shifts in the system of arms and military equipment orders did not affect science, which in Soviet times played an important role in substantiating the necessary nomenclature of arms and military equipment and their performance characteristics (tactical and technical characteristics).

Military science has moved to the stage of loss of functionality. At least, this is what V. Burenok, President of the Russian Academy of Rocket and Artillery Sciences, claims.

We do not know exactly what our Armed Forces need and with what parameters.

Often, TTZ (tactical and technical assignment) for the creation of new samples contains requirements that are beyond the laws of physics and common sense.

Meanwhile, the "reforms" of the military-scientific complex (VNK) continue.

In the course of their implementation, military science became "like a patient who is continuously operated on, and he no longer thinks about productive life, his task is to recover from endless pain and simply survive."

It should be emphasized that since the last generation of domestic SSNs ("Physicist", "Packet", "Ichthyosaur") has a very high noise immunity to barrage (which was just the "Achilles heel" of our previous torpedoes - SGPD (means of hydroacoustic counteraction) and all our torpedoes practically lost their combat effectiveness).

That is, TU is needed not just "for long-range torpedoes" (as we mistakenly believe). The main value of the TU is to ensure a very high (almost absolute) noise immunity of a torpedo salvo. For even a "blind" torpedo to the target (up to DKL) will be brought according to a powerful anti-jamming hydroacoustic complex (GAK) of the submarine.

Screen from the advertisement of the French complex PTZ SGPD, while high-frequency SGPD have no effect on the low-frequency GAK PL. That is, a torpedo with a TU can be confidently aimed at a target submarine according to the SAC.

The Ichthyosaurus has no telecontrol.

Absolutely not.
For a number of reasons, including the simple reluctance of its chief designer to put TU on the Ichthyosaur.

Fleet and its TTZ (tactical and technical assignment) for the development of "Ichthyosaurus"?

If there is no TR in Ichthyosaur, then it was not in TTZ either.

Alas, they were in a hurry. They hoped that the Ichthyosaurus would go to the fleet “yesterday” (and therefore “as quickly as possible”).

TU?

And THAT "later" ...

Alas, the factor that TU is not an “additional problem” was not fully appreciated, but an effective solution to a large set of problems even at the development stage, which allows to have the entire data flow from the torpedo under test in “real time” right during testing.

I do not write "nothing new", and we already had it. At the first UGST "Tapir" in the early 80s of the last century. However, it turned out to be "firmly forgotten."

Good telecontrol could not only sharply increase the combat effectiveness of the Ichthyosaurus, its export attractiveness (an export heavy torpedo without a TU is nonsense). But also to significantly increase the capabilities of even a limited series of tests (and simplify improvements based on their results). And it was.


The head of this topic passed away a year and a half ago.

Yes, now we have begun to "stir" in terms of fiber-optic telecontrol.

However, this "stirring" is very sentimental. Requirements for the "new TU" were formed by some so-called "specialists" (only "by the grace of the payroll", because all the real torpedo work of these persons ended only in a tough and shameful fiasco). However, they turned out to be much lower than what had already been implemented (in the "lettered materiel"!) In the ROC "Shturval" fifteen years ago. But "for some reason" exactly coincided with the characteristics of the Western system twenty years ago.

The fact that our near-war science has long become a "corrupt girl" is far from news... But not to the same extent ...

Fourth. Arctic torpedo firing


Despite the fact that our "so-called partners" - "probable enemies" of the US and British navies are systematically preparing to destroy our submarines (including strategic missile carriers), including under the ice, with regular massive torpedo firing, our "valiant Navy" until now I have not been able to conduct even one such shooting.

I repeat - the Russian Navy does not have a single torpedo shot with the SSN turned on (just as the USSR Navy did not have them). The enemy has many, many hundreds of such shots.


Photo from the exercises ICEX-2018 of the US and UK Navy.

This problem has already been raised in articles in "NVO" "ICEX - Arctic Threat for Russia" и "Arctic torpedo scandal" which caused a great resonance.

Moreover, some bosses were "jerking" to carry them out. So far, experts have not explained how all this will end (with what we have today).

The only positive consequence was that Gidropribor finally remembered about the bathyspheric tests (with proposals to carry out them before shooting under the ice). From the article (2006) “Bathysphere Chronicles” by N.Kh. Boychenkova, Yu.N. Bukhalova, Ph.D. V.N. Shekhina:

2006 marked the 10th anniversary of the imperceptible withdrawal from the structure of the institute of the sector of bathyspheric sea trials.

And for almost 15 years the boxes have not been packed, and the tough guys from the bathysphere team do not go on business trips to the training grounds.

Perhaps, this is partly the reason for the difficulties experienced by the 165th department in the process of creating and working out new technology (CHN). Models - models, but the experiment has not been canceled.

And it should be borne in mind that obtaining experimental information, for example, about the characteristics of the hydroacoustic channel, the levels of reverberation, the expected range of the CCH, the reflecting ability of various objects when using bathyspheres, requires an order of magnitude lower costs compared to torpedo firing.

The potentialities of bathyspheric research have not been exhausted - they are enormous.

Of course, the current technical level strongly dictates the need to create a new, constructively revised, taking into account the accumulated experience and using modern systemic and technical solutions and information technologies, a device for stop acoustic underwater research - a third generation bathysphere.

Ideas for creating a 3rd generation bathysphere have already been formed at the institute.


There is another problem here.

Our very overweight electric torpedoes float on "inflatable cushions" after firing, which in ice conditions can lead to their damage on ice and to the sinking of the product.

Moreover, a number of "experts" (in quotation marks) justified the failure to conduct ice firing.

However, this "problem" (quoted) has a simple solution. After operation of the product, bring it by means of telecontrol to ice-free water (if necessary, shoot near the ice edge). There would be a desire.

In addition, this is another factor that torpedoes under the ice have extremely limited capabilities without telecontrol. (The main one is a huge number of "false trails" of reflection from ice, which is difficult for an autonomous SSN to deal with).

Fifth. Perspectives and conclusions


Are there any prospects for electric torpedoes?

With new batteries, of course.

When working on the OHR-2013 issues in 2030, the author proposed a number of research activities and special tests within the framework of the conditional "small leap" (with the opening and elimination of the most acute problems of our torpedoes) and "big leap" (with the creation of the necessary scientific and technical groundwork for the development of really "breakthrough" samples of naval underwater weapons (MPS)).

Within the framework of these events, it was proposed to solve the problems of the optimal energy of promising torpedoes and their caliber (because the "optimality" of the 53 cm caliber raises great doubts among many experts). It was especially emphasized that advanced research on weapons must necessarily anticipate the corresponding work on delivery vehicles.

How it happened in the end, everyone could see in the photo from the Navy event in Sevastopol a year ago, when the "promising" (in quotes) nuclear submarine of the 5th generation, according to the results of the research work "Malachite" ended up with the ancient torpedoes USET-80 and "Physicist-1 ".


From a draft of materials by the author of ОНР-2030.

For reference. Link and quote:

The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation carried out a set of measures to substantiate the prospective appearance of the RF Armed Forces and their weapons system as part of the development of the main directions for the development of AME for the period until 2030 (ONR-2030).

It should be noted that this is a document of long-term (15-year period) planning for the development of AME, defining possible directions for the development of AME in the interests of solving the tasks of the RF Armed Forces, other troops, military formations and bodies, the predicted technical level of samples (complexes, systems), cost and time assessing their creation, as well as directions for conducting research in the interests of solving the most important scientific and technical problems in the development of AME.

On the basis of ОНР-2030, proposals are being developed for setting new and clarifying ongoing research and development projects that go beyond the timeframe of the state armament program, and decisions are made on problems arising in the course of research and development work in various areas and subject areas of AME development, including development basic and critical military technologies.

I would like to emphasize that what the author put into the proposed version of OHR-2030 on IGO was not the author's "private opinion". This was a reflection of the opinions and suggestions of many specialists (including Gidropribor).

Especially for this, the author deliberately moved away from the emphasis on "closed numbers" (in order to do without the classification of this document), with an emphasis on the principles of development and the issues under study.

We have exits from the "torpedo pit".

And our problems have not technical, but purely organizational reasons.

One of the consequences of this is that many professionals have their mouths gagged. And the management receives "cheap reports" (not related to reality).

The real reason for the lie told by B.V. Obnosov is

"Cheap reports of chiefs".

In terms of the prospects and capabilities of electric torpedoes, I will give only one example of extremely interesting and promising proposals from specialists:


Accordingly, question number 1 now is for high-ranking leaders to hear real specialists, and not "cheap managers" (those from the category

"They lied, they lie and will lie - otherwise they will not know how").

Question No. 2 - the critical need for a wide scope of research (including on new batteries of different types) and special research and shooting.

There is simply nowhere to go further without it.

From the article "Our" Pentagon Wars "-2. Development chaos ":

And one more very important point.

Despite all these difficulties, we have real successes and achievements in the creation of weapons and military equipment. And they need to be appreciated and respected.

This is not just work at the computer or at the machine until the end of the working day (and there is "the sea to the castle"). These are constant nerves, “breaking walls”, “running with obstacles” - to do the impossible, and “even yesterday”. Because "the document is under control," but they just sent it, and so on.

And those who make (and participate in this work, including on the part of the customer) really worthy domestic weapons (and not "golden guns on the wall") deserve every respect from society.

Speaking about the new torpedo (UET-1 "Ichthyosaur"), it should be emphasized that, on the one hand, this is a serious step forward, on the other, there are a number of serious shortcomings and shortcomings (first of all, the absence of technical specifications).

However (given the extremely limited funding and tough opposition to this development) the result is simply exceptional.

This is really a feat.

And those who have done this are certainly worthy of state awards and prizes.

For our naval underwater weapons, the Ichthyosaurus, in general, has unprecedentedly successful test statistics.

However, the existing shortcomings must be eliminated as soon as possible.

OCD is gone.

And now you have to eliminate everything already in the series.
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  1. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 8 February 2021 06: 04
    +13
    How sad and sad.
    1. Blackgrifon
      Blackgrifon 8 February 2021 17: 35
      +9
      Considering that Comrade Klimov had previously talked about the state of the Navy, this can be called "fine". For personally, the man cat is not very interested in the fleet, after the articles of comrade Klimov, the impression was created that we do not have a fleet.
  2. aars
    aars 8 February 2021 06: 08
    +2
    since the old DP-31U engine had just a terrible level of interference, which imposed significant restrictions on the new equipment, and a huge drop in its efficiency made the use of new powerful batteries meaningless
    Strange phrase.
    Interference is suppressed, shielded, in extreme cases, you can really put a separate battery, as indicated below.
    What does "a huge drop in its efficiency" mean?
    Under what conditions?
    Any even more powerful electric motors have an efficiency of 90% in general.
    The statement about the senselessness of using new batteries reveals the author's disagreement with elementary physics.
    Whatever the initial efficiency, the use of a more capacious battery will still lead to an increase in the cruising range, all other things being equal ...
    At the same time, Gidropribor was unable to carry out even any serious modernization of Keramika.
    This was done by TNK Dastan (Kyrgyzstan).
    The explanation is obvious - the developers of Gidropribor are just old people.
    And they are not able to master new approaches, they simply do not understand them.
    If a person has never programmed, it is too late to study at 70 years old.
    And there is nowhere to get new ones, salaries in the defense industry are much lower than in other industries.
    Old people with more experience still get something, but the salaries of new employees are not enough even to buy food.
    Who will go for 15-20 thousand rubles?
    A pensioner, moreover, for a job that does not require much effort.

    Offices like Gidropribor just need to be dispersed, with complete liquidation, 100% dismissal of all employees.
    Reforms won't help ...
    And create new ones, with normal funding.
    1. Comrade I
      Comrade I 8 February 2021 11: 52
      +9
      Why overclock it with liquidation. It is necessary to raise new personnel and introduce them into existing structures. So that under normal control the old people pass on experience to the young.
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 8 February 2021 12: 00
        +6
        Quote: Comrade Y
        Why overclock it with liquidation. It is necessary to raise new personnel and introduce them into existing structures. So that under normal control the old people pass on experience to the young.


        Again...

        When in the early 90s, at all defense enterprises, there were problems with the level of salaries, with salary delays, with payments, including barter goods (yes, it was the same in the defense industry), then the vast majority of really smart people left these enterprises ...
        Mostly mediocrity remained.
        Which there was no one to learn from.
        And what can they teach themselves?
        Mediocrity gives mediocrity - "oranges will not be born from an aspen" ...
        And yes, even those young mediocre people who were only 1990 years old in 20 - now they are 50 years old ...

        And those who were really experienced in those 90s are now well over 70.
        And they, in the vast majority, have long since died.

        So stop carrying populist themes of slogans, slogans and editorials if you don't know anything about the reality of factory life.

        and yes, building a new one from scratch is better than rebuilding the old one.
        If the law of the production process.
        If you need to completely reformat production in any process (improving quality, improving stability, reducing costs and many others), then you need to completely change personnel.
        For even 10% of employees left from the "old scheme" - within six months, the newly adopted new team will be completely turned "on the old rails"
        1. Comrade I
          Comrade I 8 February 2021 12: 03
          +3
          Well, you don't have to be rude, for a start.
          And leave those old people who will give at least some benefit.
          1. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 8 February 2021 12: 05
            -1
            Quote: Comrade Y
            Well, you don't have to be rude, for a start.
            And leave those old people who will give at least some benefit.


            Question1.
            And where was the rudeness found?

            Question2.
            Have you worked at the plant at least once?
            Did you work in the 90s?

            Did you work in the early 2000s?

            I think there will be no sensible answers ...
            For today's old people are of no use.
            There is no benefit in them for the future.

            this is populism.
            1. Comrade I
              Comrade I 8 February 2021 12: 19
              +9
              As I graduated in the 13th, I work only in factories. Certainly not 90s with 00s. Aviastar, UAZ. I've seen enough of the swamp of modern Russian industry. Although, of course, it is from the side of mass production, and not from design bureaus or even experimental.
              Literally worthless old people and "old people" (barely over 40, in fact, everything is over for them in terms of potential) - in fact, the main part of the engineering and technical staff. I didn't even argue about that with you. However, I have seen remarkable specialists for 40-60 years. Again, production concerns. But I think there are some among the developers too.
              Therefore, I always clarify (do not even argue, correct or make comments) when someone talks about "complete liquidations". Although, again, most likely this small proportion of worthy specialists is implied by them and in fact there is nothing to argue about, one could simply correct the interlocutor in response, without rudeness.
              And to point out to you specific rough formulations is to arrange disputes here already from the point of view of linguistics. It is not worth clogging the chat with messages that do not have a topic. This will not affect your communication style in any way.
              All the best.
              1. Maki Avellevich
                Maki Avellevich 8 February 2021 13: 25
                -3
                Mediocrity gives mediocrity -

                Ex nihil nihil fit
                1. CastroRuiz
                  CastroRuiz 9 February 2021 01: 01
                  0
                  Ex nihilo nihil est.
            2. kepmor
              kepmor 8 February 2021 12: 51
              +16
              judging by the reviews of my classmates with a mine and torpedo past about their activities, who have conveniently settled down with all sorts of "consultants" in offices similar to a "hydraulic device", your proposal to "disperse to edre-fen" is closer to the truth than ever ...
              Well, the torpedo problem itself, as it was the "Achilles heel" of our fleet since the days of battleships / destroyers, has remained ...
              and the point is not only the archaism of the batteries and SSNs themselves, but also the obtuseness of the principles of combat training ... there is no practical firing under the ice ... count from the "realm of fantasy" as "practice" in conditions of opposition from the GPA means ...
              M. Klimov deepest respect and strength in the "battle with helluva lot of smart" ....
            3. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 8 February 2021 18: 38
              +10
              Quote: SovAr238A
              For today's old people are of no use. There is no benefit in them for the future.

              Ringing .... but empty. (with) stop
              Colleague, are you talking about G. Efremov, what are you telling us here?
              And the second thing. Categorical judgments have never been a sign of great intelligence. So, slow down and be humble. You were not the only one who worked in the 90s. Many also led, and got out, and did business when everything flew downhill. But they did not abandon their business (the trench!), And pulled the situation by the hair and supported others.
              And the last thing. My scientific advisor always said that money should be given not under the idea, but under the head, which will make this idea a reality. Therefore, there must be a "school" of geniuses, a nursery of geeks! And of course the assessment of their work should be different. So as not to run to the stalls and IP-ears.
              IMHO.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 9 February 2021 18: 11
                +2
                Quote: BoA KAA
                Quote: SovAr238A
                For today's old people are of no use. There is no benefit in them for the future.

                Ringing .... but empty. (with) stop
                Colleague, are you talking about G. Efremov, what are you telling us here?
                And the second thing. Categorical judgments have never been a sign of great intelligence. So, slow down and be humble. You were not the only one who worked in the 90s. Many also led, and got out, and did business when everything flew downhill. But they did not abandon their business (the trench!), And pulled the situation by the hair and supported others.
                And the last thing. My scientific advisor always said that money should be given not under the idea, but under the head, which will make this idea a reality. Therefore, there must be a "school" of geniuses, a nursery of geeks! And of course the assessment of their work should be different. So as not to run to the stalls and IP-ears.
                IMHO.

                I respect your opinion.

                But ...
                Everyone has their own truth.
                My truth is based on TsSKB Progress, at 18 aircraft plant (Aviakor) - the manufacturer of the Tu-95 and its variants, Tu-154 ...
                At the Motor Builder.
                At Kuznetsovo.
                At AvtoVAZ and a dozen of its subcontractors.
                By the way, why are all the new auto-assembly plants clustered in there. where there are no qualified personnel trained for the automotive industry? Kaluga, Kaliningrad, St. Petersburg, Elabuga ... But not in Togliatti, Izhevsk ...
                thought about it?

                When I receive a new government contract, I do not hire employees from the previous contractor in 90% of cases, but create from scratch the team that will initially work the way I need.
                Not like that. as they used to.
                And now I have about 3000 employees.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 9 February 2021 18: 24
                  -2
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  And now I have about 3000 employees.

                  I hope they get tired of it, and they will fuck you in one go.
                  1. SovAr238A
                    SovAr238A 9 February 2021 18: 56
                    +2
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    Quote: SovAr238A
                    And now I have about 3000 employees.

                    I hope they get tired of it, and they will fuck you in one go.


                    Only the situation is that practically no one leaves me.
                    Over the past year, only 15 people themselves quit.
                    The rest were fired by ourselves. Although there are also about 30 of them in 3 years.
                    Think about it. who is the real manager. and who is a chatterbox.
                    Those. who were hired in 2017 (and whom I did not fire in the first six months) - not a single one has quit since then.

                    I can write tough - but my employees work and do not want to quit.
                    But I have nowhere to go, more than 1000 of my employees work in the Far North zone and they are not shift workers. And terribly spoiled locals.
                  2. SovAr238A
                    SovAr238A 9 February 2021 19: 04
                    +1
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    Quote: SovAr238A
                    And now I have about 3000 employees.

                    I hope they get tired of it, and they will fuck you in one go.



                    Oops ...
                    I finally understood your background and my mistake in writing.
                    sorry it took me too long for this ...
                    Well, excuse me - I live in a different dimension and in a different causal relationship.
                    Explain.
                    I mean "subordinate".
                    I have 3000 subordinates.
                    It is a pity that you thought otherwise ...

                    But I can say one thing.
                    The fewer people like you, the better the country will be.

                    After all, "to have something" - in Russian it is "to be responsible for something" - do you remember the phrase "what do you have to tell me?" ...
                    and "fuck someone" ...

                    It's a pity that you only understand the second meaning ...
                    and that is what you perceived.
                    your life is hard if you think only in such categories ...
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 9 February 2021 19: 34
                      -2
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      I finally understood your background and my mistake in writing.
                      sorry it took me too long for this ...

                      The fact of the matter is that subconsciously you no longer distinguish the difference between "providing work" and "have".
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      The fewer people like you, the better the country will be.

                      I will say exactly the opposite, sir.
                      1. SovAr238A
                        SovAr238A 9 February 2021 19: 47
                        +1
                        Quote: mordvin xnumx
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        I finally understood your background and my mistake in writing.
                        sorry it took me too long for this ...

                        The fact of the matter is that subconsciously you no longer distinguish the difference between "providing work" and "have".
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        The fewer people like you, the better the country will be.

                        I will say exactly the opposite, sir.


                        By no means.
                        I am not a "master" ...
                        In my life, I fell to the very bottom three times and rose three times the same way ...
                        Moreover, it "fell" thanks to the owners and their actions, and "rose" thanks to itself.
                        and there was a taxi in my life, days without sleep, and a watch in the north, without any social package ...
                        The family had to be fed at any time.
                        But ...
                        I hope you can understand.
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 9 February 2021 19: 51
                        -2
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        In my life, I fell to the very bottom three times and rose three times the same way ...

                        And what of it? At the moment, the word "I have" hooked me, and that says it all. And from rags to riches, it's not uncommon.
              2. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 9 February 2021 20: 06
                +2
                Quote: SovAr238A
                I create a team from scratch that will initially work the way I need.
                Not like that. as they used to.
                And now I have about 3000 employees.

                This is your way of working. Apparently he also has the right to be.
                But you have a different path. You will never CREATE YOUR SCHOOL in this way !!! You will never have a magazine of STUDENTS ... In fact, you are a PAPER !!!
                Yours faithfully, hi
                1. SovAr238A
                  SovAr238A 10 February 2021 09: 18
                  0
                  Quote: BoA KAA
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  I create a team from scratch that will initially work the way I need.
                  Not like that. as they used to.
                  And now I have about 3000 employees.

                  This is your way of working. Apparently he also has the right to be.
                  But you have a different path. You will never CREATE YOUR SCHOOL in this way !!! You will never have a magazine of STUDENTS ... In fact, you are a PAPER !!!
                  Yours faithfully, hi


                  In my piggy bank there are 15 managers who are now leading independent projects.
                  Each of them has from 200 to 1000 people of the personnel entrusted to them.
                  And we work all over the country, from Khabarovsk to Kaliningrad.
                  From Vorkuta and Tazovsky to the southern borders of Dagestan.
                  And all these managers have grown to this level, being on my team.
                  Having come as yellow youths.
                  And now almost every manager goes through the first six months or a year of work with me, which will then be assigned to an independent project.
                  You can of course call me a day laborer, but the actual history of our company suggests otherwise.
      2. A_Lex
        A_Lex 8 February 2021 12: 20
        +15
        and yes, building a new one from scratch is better than rebuilding the old one.


        A typical example is the USSR. Destroyed completely. At the end of the 80s, the notorious "old men" were mixed with dirt, accusing them of all sins. They built a new one, from scratch - the Russian Federation. As a result, everyone became worse. Only the oligarchs and their lackeys have won from the transformations. It is within the country. On the outer perimeter, the West won by eliminating a high-tech competitor and gaining access to cheap raw materials and the domestic market. There are no prospects for a stable improvement in life for every citizen. But they built it from scratch. Well done.

        For today's old people are of no use.
        There is no benefit in them for the future.
        this is populism.


        "Benefit for the future" is a meaningless, non-specific expression. As meaningless as, for example, the expression "the time has come", which is a euphemism for the very specific phrase "we, who control the situation, want it to be now."

        There is no benefit to some abstract future. Benefit is only for humans. And the question is who this person or group of persons is and what is his interest.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 8 February 2021 16: 10
          -1
          Quote: A_Lex
          A typical example is the USSR. Destroyed completely. At the end of the 80s, the notorious "old men" were mixed with dirt, accusing them of all sins. They built a new one, from scratch - RF. As a result, everyone became worse. IN


          Now change the USSR to Russia.
          After the revolution and civil war, in general, the whole country was practically destroyed ...
          The economy is exactly. Zero ...
          1. A_Lex
            A_Lex 8 February 2021 17: 30
            +6
            Now change the USSR to Russia.
            After the revolution and civil war, in general, the whole country was practically destroyed ...
            The economy is exactly. Zero ...


            Yet again. There is no "economy" as a kind of self-sufficient phenomenon. Any "economy" is a management system. And this system is adequate to the extent that its goal is adequate. If the goal of the "economy" is to provide a full-fledged system of life for every citizen of the state, then the "economy" is adequate. And if abstract indicators, divorced from life, are used as a goal, such as gross profit or GDP, from which everyone in real life, and not in generalized statistics, is neither cold nor hot, then there is no need to talk about adequacy. Therefore, reforming what is inadequate in order to bring it into an adequate state is right and good. This is exactly what is not observed in the "new young Russia" for the elite.
      3. Flashpoint
        Flashpoint 8 February 2021 15: 31
        +7
        Quote: SovAr238A
        and yes, building a new one from scratch is better than rebuilding the old one.

        Yes, but not always. And even when this is so, this does not mean that you need to immediately destroy the old. It often happens that a new workshop is launched next to the old one. As the transition to a new one, the old power is put under the knife or left at a minimum (you never know). Employees will be re-profiled / retrained / retired / downsized.

        Quote: SovAr238A

        For even 10% of employees left from the "old scheme" - within six months, the newly adopted new team will be completely turned "on the old rails"

        Not certainly in that way. It all depends on the organization of work and management style. New employees may have "old from somewhere earlier" skills. Old employees aren't always bad. For example, I alone pull a whole PTC. If I quit (just about to), the organization will be fun. And new ones come - not always adequate, and again the question of money and personnel.
        To create a serious breakthrough team, you need to collect people for a long time, if from scratch.
        And young people need to be taken, trained, in the process of learning it is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's complicated. In my experience - out of the conditionally 10 people whom I was preparing to replace myself - half fled or self-destructed. There is only one good protégé, but she still lacks experience - there is a passion to do everything, but a deep look is not always enough. The rest, who where, pull something somewhere, or quit.
        In fairness, not all young people were. Some were experienced, but with a negative burden of being - they quickly dropped out.

        And so yes. It is a thankless and difficult task to redo after someone, to drag the load of past problems, curves of decisions that have an architectural influence on the technical process!
        1. aars
          aars 8 February 2021 19: 38
          0
          Quote: Flashpoint
          I pull a whole PTC alone
          ??
          Can I decipher?
          Quote: Flashpoint
          New employees may have "old from somewhere earlier" skills. Old employees aren't always bad.
          Probably not everyone understood me correctly.
          I did not mean something terrible, a ban on a profession or something like that.
          No, the most common liquidation, civilized ...
          For example - an organization lost a tender for some work, respectively, another won ...
          In this case, the site, workshop - division is liquidated with the complete dismissal of all employees, as a rule.
          But someone can be transferred to another site, to an office, etc.
          Of course, the employees are told where to go, to contact ...
          The new contractor himself decides who to take, whom to drive.
          The main thing is the old hierarchy, the structure is collapsing.
          And personalities in the leadership, if they remain, are extremely rare.
          It happens that almost all of the rank and file goes over, sometimes no one has watched both.
          1. Flashpoint
            Flashpoint 8 February 2021 20: 35
            +2
            Quote: aars
            Quote: Flashpoint
            I pull a whole PTC alone
            ??
            Can I decipher?
            Quote: Flashpoint
            New employees may have "old from somewhere earlier" skills. Old employees aren't always bad.

            Software and Hardware Complex.


            Quote: aars
            Quote: Flashpoint
            New employees may have "old from somewhere earlier" skills. Old employees aren't always bad.
            Probably not everyone understood me correctly.


            Yes everything is correct. It's real here - if the already uninitiated ancient cadres have settled down and the management is also engaged in sitting out his pants - everything must be changed. If the production / scientists / testers have the potential - it is necessary to moderate and rejuvenate the process. To adopt everything useful and think over new solutions and development options. It is important to understand the boundaries, to do everything quickly and adequately.
            If confused, you can destroy a good environment or throw funds into hopelessness.
            Often in my life I saw when people were guided by the principle "died, so died", but in reality it was necessary to implement a couple of decisions. But more often, everyone is pulling the anchor to the bottom, instead of development.
            But no one said it would be easy. In rare cases, only a couple of competent influences are enough ...


            PS: it's like a car! Someone freaks out and kicks an absolutely normal car, in which only the light bulb in the headlight is blown or the fuse is dead, and someone will restore the drink (not if the car is really expensive, or a dream, or a rarity - yes, that's also a topic), and not the fact that this drink will not give up later. Or the financial drinks will not drag him to the bottom. Well, and - what kind of owner is a car. One's car was inspected, the other - rubbish trash already, drove.
      4. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 00: 32
        +2
        Quote: SovAr238A
        When in the early 90s, at all defense enterprises, there were problems with the level of salaries, with salary delays, with payments, including barter goods (yes, it was the same in the defense industry), then the vast majority of really smart people left these enterprises ...
        Mostly mediocrity remained.

        specifically on the State Research and Production Enterprise "Region", then he not only survived then, but with losses, but rushed forward - THANKS TO SHAKHIDZHANOV
        but "Shah" "left" in 2008 and POPA started
        and now the "effective managers" Krylov and Benzoruk are simply KILLING the firm as a developer and scientific organization
        with the RFP, so by the way, everything is very normal - due to the series
      5. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 11 February 2021 02: 03
        +1
        Quote: SovAr238A
        .... Because even 10% of employees left from the "old scheme"
        ? !! ...
        Well, the old militia in Ukraine, after the coup, was practically dispersed (squeezed out) ... Even label changed to - "police".(!)... the uniform was changed ... cars, new foreign cars were issued threefold more (!)than we had "seven" or "tavry", the ancients ... (!).. recourse
        But you know, I meet people from places where I had to work before, and they say to me, “it was better with you (!)... You did not "come to the scene of the incident, and Selfie делать !!!".... yes
        Sweep / Replace staff "new" (!), you can almost always and everywhere (!).... But will it always be more useful and productive ?! winked . hi
        Quote: SovAr238A
        If you need to completely reformat your production
        it is not a fact that the new products will be better than the old ones - in fact а out of sight !!! .. request lol
    2. Voenmeh
      Voenmeh April 29 2021 23: 31
      0
      I agree. It is necessary to develop personnel while retaining experienced employees.
  3. Cympak
    Cympak 8 February 2021 13: 03
    +9
    And there is nowhere to get new ones, salaries in the defense industry are much lower than in other industries.
    Old people with more experience still get something, but the salaries of new employees are not enough even to buy food.
    Who will go for 15-20 thousand rubles?

    I know one of the designers at a defense enterprise. After retirement, his salary was immediately cut off ("you need to attract young people"), but even for an increased salary, young people are reluctant, and if they do, they do not stay long. This is a problem of our defense industry (and of the country as a whole). when "effective managers" receive, as in the West, and employees are paid a penny. After that, it is simply disgusting to listen to the boasting of these leaders at various exhibitions about the cheapness of our military products. If you pay hard workers in the same way as people do not pay in the West, then most likely our military equipment will cost the same as Western ones (if not more expensive due to the low level of automation and robotization of production)
    1. Flashpoint
      Flashpoint 8 February 2021 15: 34
      +6
      Quote: Cympak

      I know one of the designers at a defense enterprise. After retirement, his salary was immediately cut off ("you need to attract young people"), but even for an increased salary, young people are reluctant, and if they do, they do not stay long.

      My sister and I did that. Only on retirement - she worked as a head of the department for six months - and was cut off to the main one for a temporary position + real income fell more than 2 times. And there was no less work. There were also more people wishing to wipe their feet. However, she works hard and is really good and fruitful for the organization.
  4. astepanov
    astepanov 8 February 2021 14: 35
    +8
    Quote: aars
    Whatever the initial efficiency, the use of a more capacious battery will still lead to an increase in the cruising range, all other things being equal ...

    There is no need to reproach the author for ignorance of physics, he did not give a reason for this. And increasing battery capacity is not always a panacea. A simple manganese-zinc element has a specific energy under 100 W-h / kg and above 200 W-h / l, but no designer in his right mind would put it on a torpedo: the internal resistance is too great. The same is with lithium-thionyl chloride: a monstrous capacity (up to 1000 Wh / kg) is combined with low power and explosion hazard. So we should talk about a high energy density, and not "in general", but taking into account specific operating conditions. And the author seems to be well versed in this, much better than you and me.
    In general, I have never been a specialist in military equipment, especially in torpedoes, but it seemed that the article had a place under the heading "analytics" - because the article is not at all the private opinion of a person who is outside the topic, everything is laid out in great detail and corrosively.
    In my opinion, this is one of the highest quality articles of the last weeks on "VO"
  5. ANB
    ANB 8 February 2021 15: 59
    +2
    ... The statement about the senselessness of using new batteries betrays the author's disagreement with elementary physics.
    Whatever the initial efficiency, the use of a more capacious battery will still lead to an increase in the cruising range, all other things being equal ...

    Not a fact. If the engine is designed for a specific operating time, and then dies, then it makes no sense to install a new battery without increasing the engine resource. Better to put one that does not die.
    The author wrote everything correctly.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 8 February 2021 19: 38
      +4
      Quote: ANB
      it makes no sense to install a new battery without increasing the engine resource. Better to put one that does not die.

      Andrey, it's all about specifics.
      It is in peacetime that the torpedo is raised after the shot, the tape recorder is taken out, the AB is reloaded, the insides are washed with alcohol ...
      But this is a weapon for war, one-time use. And in its short 5 minutes of travel, it must "fly under water" to the target, burning its "heart-engine" and "sucking" AB dry, which must "surrender without a trace"!
      Therefore, there are practical and combat items. But, in my opinion, it should not be the same product, only with a replaceable BZO ... It must be the same torpedo, with a practical BZO, which after a shot "burns out" internally, and the carrier receives all telemetry data through the TU system, for example. It is very expensive. It is extremely rare for missilemen to "return" a product by parachute. And we shot one 53-65K times 10. Our mine even studied all the scratches on it. But it was a "lucky" torpedo. And there were also "drowned women" ...
      Therefore, a military product should have everything. disposable but top quality!
      IMHO.
      1. ANB
        ANB 8 February 2021 22: 18
        +5
        ... Therefore, a military product should have everything. disposable but top quality!
        IMHO.

        I agree.
        But I know problems 2503 firsthand. So he served at the TTB in Rybachye. Personally, 2503 did not cook, but everyone told me the problems.
        The author is right in almost everything.
        And if after 17 years (in 2003 I quit) the same torpedoes are still in the Navy, then this is sad. I also understand that new torpedoes cannot be thrust into 667bdr, but everything needs to be developed on new ones.
        And in fact, I saw the murdered laboratory in Primorsky. Was it restored?
        1. 2534M
          2534M 9 February 2021 00: 12
          +4
          Quote: ANB
          on 667bdr new torpedoes cannot be shoved

          easily
          for example, a bunch of shootings "Ichthyosaurus" made from old OS - from their TA
          just instead of a 1,5 liter ARVD rod, a tear-off cable was made with its output through a standard hole in the back cover (naturally with an oil seal)
          1. ANB
            ANB 9 February 2021 09: 45
            +1
            ... easy
            for example, a bunch of shootings "Ichthyosaurus" made from old OS - from their TA
            just instead of a 1,5 liter ARVD rod, a tear-off cable was made with its output through a standard hole in the back cover (naturally with an oil seal)

            Cool. The data, as I understand it, was not entered through Almaz?
            And for this you are not ... scolded?
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 11: 55
              0
              Quote: ANB
              Cool. The data, as I understand it, was not entered through Almaz?

              not available on OS "Almaz"
              with PRV (backup input device)
              1. ANB
                ANB 9 February 2021 12: 04
                +3
                .
                not available on OS "Almaz"
                with PRV (backup input device)

                Oh. I thought they were shooting from the BDR. Sori.
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 9 February 2021 12: 30
                  +2
                  Quote: ANB
                  I thought they were shooting from the bdr.

                  should have been - shot
                  no questions
        2. 2534M
          2534M 9 February 2021 00: 34
          +1
          Quote: ANB
          Personally 2503 did not cook

          hour is not the 260s?
          1. ANB
            ANB 9 February 2021 09: 29
            +2
            Not. My friends were engaged in the first workshop. I was actually a programmer there, but the position obliged me to study everything. And 260 and 2503 and 243 and 298 and r-ki.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 11: 54
              0
              Quote: ANB
              I would actually be a programmer there

              Was the database in the accounting for an hour not yours?
              1. ANB
                ANB 9 February 2021 12: 00
                +3
                .
                Was the database in the accounting for an hour not yours?

                My. For writing it I was deprived of the prize :)
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 9 February 2021 12: 31
                  +2
                  Quote: ANB
                  My. For writing it I was deprived of the prize :)

                  in vain they did it angry
                  she worked not long after you repeat
                  1. ANB
                    ANB 9 February 2021 13: 05
                    +2
                    ... she worked a little after you feel

                    Broke? For 5 or 6 years they worked with me and there were no problems. Only sometimes I added reports.
                    1. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 13: 20
                      +2
                      Quote: ANB
                      Broke?

                      belay
                      IMMEDIATELY
                      and moreover, they said that it was "the developer's revenge" request

                      I had a "special relationship" with the account, because as soon as I appeared there, the "female screeching" immediately began - on the TTB they "valiantly" burned all the docks at RECEPTION after 5 years, but carefully kept them for RELEASE, after which all the shortages " hung on the ship crew. "
                      However, "the wrong one was attacked," I not only fought off the "assaults" in my own way, - I had to see the expressions on their faces when I poked them in their faces, for example, the delivery note for the 5 TECH-1997 delivery. with a signature on acceptance (by the way, the "loss" was immediately found on the territory of the TTB itself), plus the commanders and flagships asked to "work as an opera". Successfully angry With my participation, there were no raids on the crew, but there was enough screeching on the TTB itself laughing
                    2. ANB
                      ANB 9 February 2021 14: 45
                      +1
                      ... IMMEDIATELY
                      and moreover, they said that it was "the developer's revenge" request

                      I left in 2003, everything worked.
                      My salary was there and the calculation of DD. And he left everything behind.
                      Maybe they decided to cover up the shortages?
                      So, when the chief engineer came out of vacation, they returned the prize to me and poured it from above for the accounting program. :) What was the revenge.
                    3. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 15: 06
                      +1
                      Quote: ANB
                      What was the revenge.

                      said what they said ("in the back to the performer")
                      but about the shortages - it is quite possible recourse
  6. ANB
    ANB 8 February 2021 22: 29
    +1
    ... short 5 minutes of travel, it must "fly under water" to the target

    So this is the M5 product :)
  7. 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 00: 16
    +3
    Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
    Therefore, a military product should have everything. disposable but top quality!

    I can't vouch for the reliability, but I came across on amerovsky naval forums that the Mk48 was given out in ammunition after about 5 (!!!) practical shots with it
  • 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 00: 14
    +4
    Quote: ANB
    Better to put one that does not die.

    that's what they did
    EPV (VPPM) - not only on UET-1, but also on USET
    when USET on a 25 (!!!) summer battery passed MORE than 20 km with the BPMM, and at a speed slightly more "regular", not only me
    1. ANB
      ANB 9 February 2021 09: 34
      +2
      ... when USET on a 25 (!!!) summer battery passed MORE than 20 km with the BPMM, and at a speed slightly more "regular", not only me

      Vaughn. And if this engine is not overheated, then you can put a more powerful battery. And finally make your target audience. Because it's cheaper to put a PC in a torpedo than to contact Ukraine. Repair of the target audience in the 90s caused problems.
      1. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 12: 33
        +1
        Quote: ANB
        Repair of the target audience in the 90s caused problems.

        and, by the way, who then thought of an additional battery on the target audience on the TTB so that the practitioner data would be saved?
        1. ANB
          ANB 9 February 2021 13: 10
          +2
          ... And, by the way, who then thought of an additional battery on the target audience on the TTB so that the practitioner data would be saved?

          Warrant officer Alexander forgot his last name, like Goldstein. He was then the head of the accounting, and then left for Israel. Everything was fine until one practice drowned.
          1. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 13: 21
            +1
            Quote: ANB
            Warrant officer Alexander forgot his last name, like Goldstein. He was then the head of the accounting, and then left for Israel. Everything was fine while

            useful thing was ...
            1. ANB
              ANB 9 February 2021 16: 08
              +2
              ... useful thing was ...

              As far as I remember, there was not just a battery, but a compact recorder with its own power supply.
              When the practice drowned (tsiatima regretted :)) they forced this thing to be removed and tore everyone out. This was before me on the TTB.
              1. 2534M
                2534M 9 February 2021 23: 28
                +3
                Quote: ANB
                As far as I remember, there was not just a battery, but a compact recorder with its own power supply.

                in June 2000 this thing helped out - in "practice", on the trajectory, the target audience burned out, it is a pity because it "flew" directly into the side of the IPL (practically at the same depth) + the second "turn" and capture ...
                Well, for us, K-506 "avenged", 260 which it aimed at first at the "los", and on the secondary search already at us
                1. ANB
                  ANB 10 February 2021 00: 25
                  +1
                  ... in June 2000

                  Oops. But I didn't know about that. Apparently, after the situation with Goldenberg, they decided not to chat again.
                  And in fact, by 2000 there were only a few serviceable target audiences for 2503.
                  So they did not even try to send them to Kiev, they called a specialist to us. It was both difficult and expensive. And not everything could be repaired on the spot.
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 10 February 2021 00: 46
                    +1
                    Quote: ANB
                    And in fact, by 2000 there were only a few serviceable target audiences for 2503.

                    ?????
                    both in BC and for practice somehow was enough ...
                    but what they took care of were the "bags", so the real "RODEO" is not from the sivolapy amers, but from the Kamchatka torpedoists, when one of them climbed astride a torpedo towed by the STROKE (since the steering wheel was not in service) and "undermined" valve so that you can drag a torpedo with a bag without damaging it
                  2. ANB
                    ANB 10 February 2021 01: 09
                    +2
                    ... both in BC and for practice somehow was enough

                    Sleight of hand of the chief engineer, chief and head of the first shop, and no fraud. :)
                    In fact, the shooting became a couple of orders of magnitude less than in the 80s.
                    I had schedules.
              2. ANB
                ANB 10 February 2021 00: 28
                +2
                ... it is a pity because it "flew" directly into the side of the IPL (practically at the same depth) + the second "turn" and capture ...

                In practice, the vertical path is turned off. So the chances of getting caught were low. But it would have scared me a lot
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 10 February 2021 00: 43
                  +1
                  Quote: ANB
                  In practice, the vertical path is turned off. So the chances of getting caught were low. But it would have scared me a lot

                  from 260 "los" left in motion (the act of disarmament was just a SONG !!! - with the dynamics of pointing first to the submarine, and then to our nuclear submarine (mine)) and a maneuver in depth, the VRSZ was very specific, and therefore it is possible to estimate with high accuracy its initial depth is just like that of our USET
      2. ANB
        ANB 9 February 2021 20: 42
        +3
        I remembered.
        Sasha Goldenberg.
        After meeting him and the commander of the TTB Freidman, I began to respect Jews very much.
  • timokhin-aa
    8 February 2021 18: 22
    +8
    Answer from the author, M. Klimov:

    Interference is suppressed, shielded, in extreme cases, you can really put a separate battery, as indicated below.


    MK: uh-huh, - so Gidropribor fucked with this for almost 10 years, and the design decisions made for this became just a "noose" for the developers of the CLS ...
    I was amused about the "separate battery", taking into account the fact that only the equipment of "Waterfall" required MUCH MORE THAN 10 KW

    What does "a huge drop in its efficiency" mean? Under what conditions?
    Any even more powerful electric motors have an efficiency of 90% in general.


    MK: Actually, DP-31U has 90% only at the start, but at the end of the trajectory (ie, at the NOMINAL mode of operation), the efficiency "falls" below 70%, followed by a FALL (ED stupidly turns into a "stove" and just collapses - because its temperature reaches 700 degrees)

    The statement about the senselessness of using new batteries reveals the author's disagreement with elementary physics.
    Whatever the initial efficiency, the use of a more capacious battery will still lead to an increase in the cruising range, all other things being equal ...


    MK: Monsieur, YOU are just yap, and an illiterate one. The question is not in the "initial efficiency", but the fact that the ED stupidly "dies" at the end of the distance (and AT THE GOAL !!!! - with all that it implies) and for this reason it simply physically cannot chew at the nominal mode any more powerful battery
    1. aars
      aars 8 February 2021 19: 07
      -3
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      since its temperature reaches 700 degrees
      Well, well.
      700 degrees in a motor made of enameled wire and transformer steel ...
      Yes you are a storyteller.
      There is no need to tell anything more, here many people know about the engines, about the thermal - on the 700s, the glow is already clearly visible.
      You have already supplemented the author quite well, revealed the idea, so to speak, let know about qualifications, experience, etc.
      1. Flashpoint
        Flashpoint 8 February 2021 20: 47
        +4
        Quote: aars
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        since its temperature reaches 700 degrees
        Well, well.
        700 degrees in a motor made of enameled wire and transformer steel ...
        Yes you are a storyteller.
        There is no need to tell anything more, here many people know about the engines, about the thermal - on the 700s, the glow is already clearly visible.
        You have already supplemented the author quite well, revealed the idea, so to speak, let know about qualifications, experience, etc.


        In fact, the motors with brushes really get warm. Here is the same disk valve torpedo.
        See this subject



        The main disadvantages of the known engine are its low specific characteristics, noise and vibration arising from the rotation of the armature and friction of the brushes. The torpedo motor operates at the limit of its technical capabilities, the main parameters and physical processes in the engine are the maximum permissible and are limited by such criteria as heating the active parts to a state close to thermal destruction of structural materials. Collector torpedo motors in terms of efficiency, switching, electromagnetic and thermal parameters approached the maximum permissible values, and their use in promising torpedoes is limited by increased requirements both in absolute and in specific power values.
        1. aars
          aars 8 February 2021 21: 06
          -3
          Everything heats up, both engines and generators.

          But 700 gr. from the realm of fantasy or tales.
          The patent you mentioned specifies seawater cooling, i.e. the temperature is clearly less than 100 gr.

          The same, from the category of tales, I suppose, and regarding interference - the author of that article, that the commentary does not know about where the influence of interference is significant, what is the floating ground, LC-links, galvanic isolation, etc. etc.
          This may have been an unsolvable problem in the days of the lamps, but not now.

          And really there was no practical USET-80?
          Purely a question for those in the know.
          1. Flashpoint
            Flashpoint 8 February 2021 21: 25
            +4
            Quote: aars
            Everything heats up, both engines and generators.

            But 700 gr. from the realm of fantasy or tales.
            The patent you mentioned specifies seawater cooling, i.e. the temperature is clearly less than 100 gr.

            The same, from the category of tales, I suppose, and regarding interference - the author of that article, that the commentary does not know about where the influence of interference is significant, what is the floating ground, LC-links, galvanic isolation, etc. etc.
            This may have been an unsolvable problem in the days of the lamps, but not now.

            And really there was no practical USET-80?
            Purely a question for those in the know.

            And water is not such an effective coolant for cooling. In the same internal combustion engines, not water, but antifreeze. This water is excellent for nuclear power plants, taking into account the volume and specificity.
            And also - the water boils and forms a layer of steam, which, due to the nuances of the design, can lead to a sharp inertia and with constant heating of the engine we will get a sharp overheating (by the way, read about the causes of the Chernobyl accident and the steam coefficient of reactivity). This, of course, is a little off topic, but it also suggests certain thoughts.

            PS: no, well, about the lamps and oscillatory circuits, you have already completely bent :)
            1. aars
              aars 8 February 2021 21: 50
              -6
              So we come to the issue of cooling.
              But in the original article there is nothing about this, it says "drop in efficiency".
              The author clearly does not understand what he is writing about.
              Any engine heats up.
              Even if the efficiency is under 99,8%, a part of the current goes into heat.
              Anyone, even to a small extent familiar with electrical engineering, knows that with heating, the efficiency decreases, if only due to the increase in the active resistance of the windings.
              Of course, a valve motor is needed (we even have our own IGBTs!), But it will also heat up from it.

              And I didn’t mean an oscillatory circuit - a filtering link from a choke (s) and a feed-through capacitor.
              Of course, they also form a circuit, but with a low frequency and, as a rule, low Q, there are no problems with this.

              Well, a funny "pearl":
              the "Waterfall" equipment required MUCH MORE THAN 10 KW

              The author clearly does not know the typical consumption of amplifying paths, these are milliwatts, not kilowatts.
              Just think, 4-5 orders of magnitude of error, nonsense ...
              You don't need a separate power supply for everything, only for the small-signal part ...
              1. Flashpoint
                Flashpoint 8 February 2021 22: 57
                +2
                Well, the amplification in the circuits is not just like that - due to the redistribution of energy costs. The damper is a trifle in itself. But the efficiency of amplifiers is usually from 20% (single-ended transistor) to 98% (at low frequencies). It all depends on the characteristics of the workers and the nomenclature base. Indeed, a seeker can actually be a very power-hungry component. I don't know about 10 kW, but 2-4 kW is easy.
                1. aars
                  aars 9 February 2021 22: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Flashpoint
                  the seeker can actually be a very energy-intensive component
                  I wrote crookedly, although below there is about a small signal ...
                  It was necessary to "receive-amplifying", such as buffer op-amps from analog girls (AD) for the ADC.
                  Output amplifiers are different.
              2. 2534M
                2534M 8 February 2021 23: 55
                +3
                Quote: aars
                The author clearly does not know the typical consumption of amplifying paths, these are milliwatts, not kilowatts.
                Just think, 4-5 orders of magnitude of error, nonsense ...
                You don't need a separate power supply for everything, only for the small-signal part ...

                fool
                Monsieur, YOU generally know what a trash wassat Are you carrying? lol DO YOU generally represent the difference between the RADIATIVE and RECEPTION tracts?

                Quote: aars
                Anyone, even to a small extent familiar with electrical engineering, knows that with heating, the efficiency decreases, if only due to the increase in the active resistance of the windings.
                Of course, a valve motor is needed (we even have our own IGBTs!), But it will also heat up from it.

                if we go from YOUR LOVE to facts, then UET-1 has NO cooling system (because of very high efficiency), but DM2A4 has TWO
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 9 February 2021 09: 26
                  +2
                  Quote: 2534M
                  Monsieur

                  belay Klimov in a new rebirth ??? Ah Maksimka, oh yes ..... ... !!!! laughing
                2. aars
                  aars 9 February 2021 13: 37
                  -3
                  Quote: 2534M
                  YOU are generally the difference between RADIATORS and RECEPTIONS
                  Can I quote this? laughing
                  With attribution by itself.
                  You are extremely far from the people, that is, from electricity - interference is not critical for the radiating path, not at all ...
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 9 February 2021 14: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: aars
                    You are extremely far from the people, that is, from electricity - interference is not critical for the radiating path, not at all ...

                    YOU are in the cards ALSO wassat are you playing?
                    Or YOU don't play them so that you don't "accidentally meet with the candelabrum"?
                    It was about LOADING THE INSTRUMENT CIRCUIT, to which YOU (apparently from the "overabundance" of technical literacy wassat ) dragged in interference (and without having the slightest idea of ​​what kind of interference it is)
          2. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 00: 06
            +2
            Quote: aars
            But 700 gr. from the realm of fantasy or tales.

            fool
            before (YOU) publicly to smack wassat it would not be bad at least to take an interest in the topic

      2. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 00: 09
        +2
        Quote: aars
        700 degrees in a motor made of enameled wire and transformer steel ...
        Yes you are a storyteller.

        fabulous wassat here YOU ARE BAD fool
        The facts are:

        Quote: aars
        You have already supplemented the author quite well, revealed the idea, so to speak, let know about qualifications, experience, etc.

        hmm ... about your "qualifications" wassat ("language work") YOU have written exhaustively lol
        1. aars
          aars 9 February 2021 13: 39
          -2
          A simple question - what are the windings from?
          1. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 14: 13
            +3
            Quote: aars
            windings from what?

            made of copper, of course
            but the isolation solutions were very atypical
            1. aars
              aars 9 February 2021 15: 53
              -2
              That is, you don't know.
              1. 2534M
                2534M 9 February 2021 15: 59
                +3
                Quote: aars
                That is, you don't know.

                bunny, I still have photocopies of faxes lying around in my closet, like "they turned the country over" in the intrigues, respectively. insulating materials, when trying to renew the DP-31U series ...
                1. aars
                  aars 9 February 2021 16: 00
                  -2
                  So name these materials.
                  Why are you pressing on?
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 9 February 2021 18: 02
                    +2
                    Quote: aars
                    So name these materials.
                    Why are you pressing on?

                    the purpose of YOUR interest name
        2. aars
          aars 9 February 2021 13: 55
          -2
          Instead of making channels for cooling, we are looking for efficiency with a pair of heat pipes.
          Why, our own pride, did not and will not.
          Engineering culture and rushing.

          By the way, the article can be seen literally from the first tongue-tied phrases with an unclear meaning.
          1. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 14: 00
            +4
            Quote: aars
            Instead of making channels for cooling, a couple of heat pipes

            where without YOU then, YlEktro-Yksperda wassat - here on the Atlas with your "tips" wassat contact, otherwise these "stupid Germans" on DM2A4 even with two cooling systems struggled ... YOU have everything "simple" - "tyap-blooper" and "ready" wassat
            1. aars
              aars 9 February 2021 14: 02
              -3
              And then how, otherwise you will completely climb into the jungle.
              At least I know what interference is and what is the difference between the receiving and amplifying paths.
              1. 2534M
                2534M 9 February 2021 14: 11
                +3
                Quote: aars
                At least I know what interference is and what is the difference between the receiving and amplifying paths.

                fool
                Monsieur, taking into account that ACHINEA wassat which YOU wrote here, YOUR "Yletric level" is the maximum "electric sausage cutter" lol
                1. aars
                  aars 9 February 2021 15: 54
                  -2
                  It is rather to you.
                  For you and the dark wood cutter.
                  1. 2534M
                    2534M 9 February 2021 16: 02
                    +3
                    Quote: aars
                    For you

                    good luck elektrik wassat
                    Do not stick your fingers in the socket (foolishly) lol
                    1. aars
                      aars 9 February 2021 16: 04
                      -2
                      I'm a developer, but the picture is good, it's a pity it's small.
                    2. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 16: 19
                      +1
                      Quote: aars
                      I am a developer,

                      wassat
                      belay
                      PEOPLE - FEAR !!!!

                      PS - no, YOU probably better stick your fingers in the socket, and more often lol
                      just because so people will be safer laughing
                    3. aars
                      aars 9 February 2021 17: 11
                      -2
                      And you at least look through what you dashed ...
                      If the question is about the resource due to elementary overheating - what does the "huge drop in efficiency" have to do with it?
                      The valve with magnets will also die.
                      And it doesn't matter that it doesn't have a collector - it's steel and copper.
                    4. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 18: 01
                      +3
                      Quote: aars
                      If the question is about the resource due to elementary overheating - what does the "huge drop in efficiency" have to do with it?
                      The valve with magnets will also die.
                      And it doesn't matter that it doesn't have a collector - it's steel and copper.

                      fool
                      yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ...
                      how difficult YOU are fool
                      it's not about "steel and copper" but about Performance
                      and if the BPPM UET has 0,98 at the beginning and 0,97 at the end - i.e. roughly 2-3% goes to the "oven"
                      then the DP-31U has it at the beginning of 0,92 and at the end of the distance is MUCH less than 0,7 - i.e. from 8% to MORE THIRD goes into the "oven"
                      Taking into account the fact that we are talking about a power of almost 400 kW in a tightly "packed" with equipment "pipe" with a diameter of just over 0,5 m, the consequences are obvious to any SANE
                    5. aars
                      aars 9 February 2021 18: 03
                      -2
                      I will explain to a non-electrician - active resistance is not compensated for by switching.
                      No way, ferstein?
                      You can poke as much as you like, it's no use.
                    6. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 18: 17
                      +1
                      Quote: aars
                      No way, ferstein?

                      you pick wassat here YOU are monsieur
                      and from YOUR SKY wassat the above numerical values ​​will not change in any way lol
                    7. aars
                      aars 9 February 2021 18: 45
                      -2
                      Your meanings are not from that opera.
                      Resource constraints, not efficiency.
                      The same will happen with the new motor, only the magnets have a much lower Curie point.
                      Even in your book it is said that they were not engaged in development, they made stupid heating pads.
                      Your gangs really need to be dispersed, such experience is not needed nafig, to involve the aviation industry, to do it normally.
                    8. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 19: 12
                      +2
                      Quote: aars
                      Your meanings are not from that opera.

                      from "opera" wassat here YOU are just pevEC wassat
                      Quote: aars
                      Resource constraints, not efficiency.

                      fool
                      tell it to the torpedo in the first photo - its "wounded look" - from the number of firing, because all the ROC except the GI was performed by 2 (TWO) items (there was no money for more)
                      Quote: aars
                      It will be the same with the new engine

                      fool
                      to a psychiatrist
                      Quote: aars
                      Even in your book it is said that they were not engaged in development, they made stupid heating pads.

                      fool
                      by the way, YOU are "it" wassat not from the "6th chamber" write? lol
                      Quote: aars
                      Your gangs really need to be dispersed

                      yes, everyone has already understood - "to disperse everyone, to the old people -" a wolf ticket ", and effective managers of the new Buratino from the logs will cut" (like YOU) lol
                    9. aars
                      aars 9 February 2021 19: 15
                      -3
                      Quote: 2534M
                      tell it to the torpedo in the first photo
                      This is already a clinic, you do not remember your own words.
                      Then you are talking about the uselessness of capacious batteries. you already have 700 gr. there, then everything turns out to be fine.
                      What are you talking about isolation, by the way?
                    10. 2534M
                      2534M 9 February 2021 19: 26
                      +2
                      Quote: aars
                      This is already a clinic, you do not remember your own words.

                      fool
                      bunny, this is your clinic wassat
                      Quote: aars
                      Quote: 2534M tell it to the torpedo in the first photo
                      You don't remember your own words.
                      Then you are talking about the uselessness of capacious batteries. you already have 700 there, then everything turns out to be fine.

                      bunny, in the first photo UET-1 with BPMMwhere the use of new batteries makes great sense
                      Quote: aars
                      What are you talking about isolation, by the way?

                      and who are you that I would call you the brands of these materials?
                      small nonsense ElektrychE TRO-LO-LO?
  • aars
    aars 9 February 2021 16: 14
    -1
    Quote: 2534M
    in the 30s of the twentieth century, its own sub-industry was created
    I worked at such a plant, in OMA.
    1. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 19: 14
      +2
      Quote: aars
      I worked at such a plant, in OMA.

      taking into account what kind of trash wassat YOU are carrying here, YOU are just BANAL TRAPPING
      (already enough:
      It even involuntarily suggests itself that it is a stupid question - what kind of engine?
      General industrial rewound or crane?

      https://topwar.ru/179699-ihtiozavr-i-drugie-jelektricheskie-torpedy-novye-i-starye.html#comment-id-11216147
      - and this is about a SPECIALIZED torpedo ED !!!)
      1. aars
        aars 9 February 2021 19: 18
        -3
        So this is from your little book - it says directly about the complete lag behind the aircraft industry.
        PS: the plant is still working, only with a smaller (much) number, belongs to the space agency.
        1. 2534M
          2534M 9 February 2021 19: 31
          +2
          Quote: aars
          So this is from your little book -

          bunny, this is not "my little book" but

          and moreover, the author tried to argue with me

          Quote: aars
          there it says directly about the complete lag behind the aircraft industry.

          it directly says about stagnation
          according to the situation for 2011
          at the same time, Kotov is LUKAVIT, because in this book he subjected the PDPM Dagdizel to devastating criticism (in 2011, despite the fact that in 2010, in my presence he reported to Tikhonov (then the head of the sector) something completely different about him)
          1. aars
            aars 9 February 2021 19: 35
            0
            The author of the book is 82 years old and does he work?
            Or not already?
            If not, when did you stop working?
            If you know, no, no.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 19: 36
              +2
              Quote: aars
              If not, when did you stop working?

              died
              around 2012
              1. aars
                aars 9 February 2021 19: 40
                +2
                Do you have a link to the book?
              2. 2534M
                2534M 9 February 2021 19: 43
                +4
                Quote: aars
                Do you have a link to the book?

                http://cnlib.ru/
  • 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 00: 20
    +4
    Quote: aars
    100% layoff of all employees.

    fool
    understandably, following YOUR "logic," new "logs are cut out" wassat
    and a number of "managers" thought so realistically, and then "for some reason" were "very surprised" belay
    probably because a rocket or a torpedo is still not a "sausage"
    1. Flashpoint
      Flashpoint 9 February 2021 00: 29
      +5
      Quote: 2534M
      Quote: aars
      100% layoff of all employees.

      fool
      understandably, following YOUR "logic," new "logs are cut out" wassat
      and a number of "managers" thought so realistically, and then "for some reason" were "very surprised" belay
      probably because a rocket or a torpedo is still not a "sausage"

      Greetings! hi
      We could not stand it and still went in! good
  • 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 11: 57
    +4
    Quote: aars
    If a person has never programmed, it is too late to study at 70 years old.

    But the fact that this person, for example, can make the "analog part" so simply, beautifully and efficiently, that the requirements for the hardware and software part are sharply reduced, is this "trifles" for YOU?
    1. aars
      aars 9 February 2021 13: 41
      -5
      You can say a lot here, but you still won't understand.
      In short, no, it won't.
      1. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 14: 02
        +3
        Quote: aars
        You can say a lot here, but you still won't understand.
        In short, no, it won't.

        Monsieur, YOUR "opinion" wassat "SWIMS VERY FINE"
        YOU have already written enough ACHINEA lol
    2. frog
      frog 9 February 2021 17: 19
      +1
      The office for which I sometimes work consists of grandfathers about 75 years old (about half), four people 40-50 years old, and a dozen more young))) about 30 years old ...... And quite a competitive iron comes out. And the grandfathers are very good. An electronics friend is amazed at the solutions offered by these old people. From a good point of view))) From only except for development - alas. The customer cannot break through the iron into the series)))
      1. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 20: 14
        +2
        Quote: frog
        An electronics friend is amazed at the solutions offered by these old people. From a good vantage point

        well so SYSTEMOTEHNIKE then taught and very well
        1. frog
          frog 9 February 2021 21: 30
          +1
          Yes, yes. I also seem to be good)) At least, unlike the bourgeoisie, I get the same results without using alloys of domestic development, which are not available to us)))
          In addition, these grandfathers have such a good experience of work, in their specialty repeat And given the fact that the office is small and, practically, informal wink , with intelligent bosses - it turns out quite well. But ...... It's useless to argue with the same "Gidropribor" lol But you yourself know it drinks
  • A1845
    A1845 8 February 2021 11: 37
    +10
    Powerful article
    whole monograph, respect to the author hi
  • prior
    prior 8 February 2021 12: 04
    +7
    It seems that the "Bobik" is dead, but still reflexively pulls its legs.
  • S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 8 February 2021 12: 19
    +5
    The degradation of many scientific and technical schools that existed in the Union is obvious. The created bureaucratic "vertical" management structures of "effective managers" are focused on "assimilation" of budget funds and R&D subjects are incomprehensible and uninteresting to them (the example of "Roskosmos" is visible to everyone). The former leaders of developments such as "Gidropribor" are filled with retired military men and pensioners, and they cannot afford modern developments. Military research institutes have not recovered after the defeat and cannot offer reasonable development goals coordinated in the interests of all types of the Armed Forces. Real competition between developers is not organized. The entire system of R&D organization requires a comprehensive review at the state level.
    However, life goes on. In all areas touched upon by the author, there are shoots of the new, you just need to see them and be able to use them to solve the problems raised. For example, in the part of broadband homing systems in adjacent areas (radio engineering), for many decades, methods of radiation, reception and processing of complex broadband signals with the suppression of any interference have been implemented and used in serial samples of technology. For the frequency ranges of hydroacoustics, there is a sufficient domestic digital element base.
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 February 2021 18: 20
      +2
      Answer. from M. Klimov, author:

      Former leaders of developments such as "Gidropribor"

      MK:
      Gidropribor has NEVER been among the "development leaders"

      For example, in terms of broadband homing systems in adjacent areas (radio engineering), for many decades, methods of radiation, reception and processing of complex broadband signals with the suppression of any interference have been implemented and used in serial equipment.


      MK: YOU have no idea about the subject of the conversation - in the radio range with the USA, the signals are MUCH easier, - it's stupid because of the extremely acute interference factor in hydroacoustics (for high-speed objects)
      .
      For the frequency ranges of hydroacoustics there is a sufficient domestic digital element base.


      MK:
      YOU are not in the subject. ABSOLUTELY
      1. S. Viktorovich
        S. Viktorovich 8 February 2021 20: 00
        -1
        The question of someone's leadership is, of course, a matter of taste. In pre-perestroika times, Gidropribor had quite modern developments (not only about torpedoes), good specialists and a well-developed training base.
        In noise-immune broadband radio systems, the suppression of a complex of interference of various structures with a level of under 100 dB is implemented on digital devices developed on a domestic element base. You clearly lack information from this area.
        1. 2534M
          2534M 8 February 2021 23: 51
          +1
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          pre-perestroika times "Gidropribor" had quite modern developments

          DON'T SHOOT SHOULD HER HURT
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          level under 100 dB on digital devices developed on the basis of domestic components. You clearly lack information from this area

          As for my information, these are the leading domestic developers (and not only hydroacoustics), so refrain from YOUR cheap "advertising" advice
          1. S. Viktorovich
            S. Viktorovich 9 February 2021 11: 47
            -3
            Apparently, the author and his support group are often and severely beaten. They rush into battle without sorting out funds, even if they are not attacked.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 11: 53
              +2
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              Apparently,

              YOU are verbiage
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              and his cheerleading hour

              with this - to the doctor
      2. S. Viktorovich
        S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 14: 43
        -1
        I looked through the publications of this company. Alas, the conclusion made by this story is, in fact, a common one - retirees with an inferiority complex must "educate" their grandchildren.
        1. 2534M
          2534M 11 February 2021 15: 54
          -2
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          Alas, the conclusion reached by this story

          this is what YOU are a pathological LIAR - unable to answer for your words
          see for example - https://topwar.ru/179699-ihtiozavr-i-drugie-jelektricheskie-torpedy-novye-i-starye.html#comment-id-11216411
  • Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst 8 February 2021 12: 23
    -12%
    Honestly, I haven't finished reading it. The emotionality of the author is straining and the loss of the narrative thread with a constant jump "about this below" and links to many previously published articles, where, supposedly, everything is chewed and proven. And the fact that everything is bad with us and all around is mastering the budget without visible returns becomes clear from the title of the article at the beginning and the author's signature at the end! Tired of it!
    And it is high time for the competent authorities to think about why the author ignores the favorite Russian letter "Ё / ё !? repeat
    1. A_Lex
      A_Lex 8 February 2021 12: 46
      +9
      And it is high time for the competent authorities to think


      Typical bourgeois reaction in the style of "Disgrace! The author dared to tell the truth, which refutes the streams of unparalleled lies pouring from all irons. Please invite the police officer. We will write him a statement about insulting the feelings of believers in fairy tales."
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 8 February 2021 13: 22
      +6
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      And it is high time for the competent authorities to think about why the author ignores the favorite Russian letter "Ё / ё !?

      Because in such an article, the letter "E" in any place will be considered a disguised mat. smile
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 8 February 2021 16: 15
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        And it is high time for the competent authorities to think about why the author ignores the favorite Russian letter "Ё / ё !?

        Because in such an article, the letter "E" in any place will be considered a disguised mat. smile


        Like. just give an excuse "It's still there" and then "drain" ...
    3. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 8 February 2021 15: 37
      +5
      Well, Klimov's articles - "War and Peace" in comparison with typical opuses.
    4. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 8 February 2021 16: 15
      +3
      Quote: Scharnhorst

      And it is high time for the competent authorities to think about why the author ignores the favorite Russian letter "Ё / ё !? repeat


      Of course, I'm for Mina, but your humor is clear ... :)
      even though you were minus ... Probably those who have no humor ...
    5. timokhin-aa
      8 February 2021 18: 15
      +3
      Klimov asked to convey the answer, everything that is written below, his:

      1. Monsieur Scharnhorst (by the way, is the nickname quite greyhound for you? - don't you find it?) - DO NOT READ. It's too difficult for YOUR little mind, scroll through the "Murzilka" - IT'S YOUR

      2. And try at least ONCE IN YOUR LIFE for your LONG LANGUAGE TO ANSWER - WRITE TO THE COMPETENT AUTHORITIES, you can start with the actions of the military prosecutor's office of the Northern Fleet that have disrupted the state defense order and providing the carriers of the Northern Fleet with ammunition with the requirements of the AGREEMENT OF WORKS with KIEV (!!! - in 2014-2015) ... We are looking forward to a screen with YOUR appropriate appeal at http://www.fsb.ru/fsb/webreception.htm
  • Klonser
    Klonser 8 February 2021 13: 35
    +4
    Yeah ... Our fleet is not clear how and what it is going to fight in case of war. I just can't understand in the Aerospace Forces in the SV we are still moving forward in new weapons and ammunition, albeit with a creak, and the Navy froze in the 80s and that's it. New, if developed, is so long and with the same characteristics that when they are adopted, everything is already outdated. It is sad that such a situation is for a torpedo.
    1. Kart
      Kart 8 February 2021 15: 30
      -11%
      Quote: Klonser
      Yeah ... Our fleet is not clear how and what it is going to fight in case of war.

      Do not worry.
      Every fighter with the regime knows that the fleet will not fight at all. In our country, the oligarchs are in command, and they have property abroad.
      The fighters against the regime saliva at the words "property abroad".
      1. timokhin-aa
        8 February 2021 18: 13
        +4
        You seem to be transmitting voices from your head here.
        The article is not about your nonsense, at all.
        Stop writing nonsense.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 February 2021 15: 45
      +3
      Quote: Klonser
      and the Navy as froze in the 80s and that's it

      Well, not really, of course. Nevertheless, the polymer-redoubt for 22350 was finished, calibers were installed on ships, zircons are made, MiG-29KUB and Su-30 naval aviation are a little, but they gave it away. That is, there are still separate rays of light in the dark kingdom, but in general, of course ...
      But in general - this is how it is written in the article, the way it is
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 8 February 2021 20: 09
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But in general - this is how it is written in the article, the way it is

        Andrey, well, not quite all schleicht, we still have rocket torpedoes, a package, again, well, at worst, a flurry with a mallet ... And by means of detection / classification, the movement has also begun ...
        Now, at the very least, the issue of dviguns is being resolved, you look and there will be no carriers ... Everything is more fun than it will be in the glorious 90s ...
        And that was just a paragraph, even like a wolf howl!
        Nothing, we will break through ... We will live - we will not die!
        1. ANB
          ANB 9 February 2021 16: 22
          +3
          ... there are still rocket torpedoes, the package, again, well, at worst, a flurry with a mallet ..

          Some missiles remained.
          Moreover, on the 83P and 86P, these are ordinary small-sized torpedoes, with all the usual problems.
          There is still hope for 84 and 88.
          On M5, you should have seen the state of the 4th workshop.
          One hope is that there are people who are not indifferent and that at least something is moving. And let the author write articles and reports. And new developments are being made. And problems are eliminated. You can't sit on your butt now.
      2. Klonser
        Klonser 9 February 2021 19: 32
        +2
        How many sawed that Polyment -reduot? In the air defense during this time, several complexes managed to be put into service. The caliber is essentially a Grenade without YABCH. Airplanes, in principle, have nothing to do with the fleet. Well at least they gave it. But there are practically no purely marine options. For PLO, the ancient IL-38 and Tu-142 are used and modernized in scanty quantities. There is no Su-34 in the fleet, although it was conceived as a naval bomber. So there is no particular reason for optimism.
  • Kuroneko
    Kuroneko 8 February 2021 13: 45
    +1
    Maxim, and with the same Obnosov you somehow tried to contact in order to explain to him the current state of affairs?
    1. Flashpoint
      Flashpoint 8 February 2021 14: 20
      +1
      Quote: Kuroneko
      Maxim, and with the same Obnosov you somehow tried to contact in order to explain to him the current state of affairs?

      Great question, support!
      The article describes the communication processes of developers a little chaotically. One gets the opinion that there was communication, but ... We are waiting for details!
      1. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 00: 23
        +2
        Quote: Flashpoint
        One gets the opinion that there was communication,

        apparently today there will be a post in LJ (mina 030)
        I didn't dare to drag that TIN in the media, there are a lot of raids on Timokhin and me
        1. Flashpoint
          Flashpoint 9 February 2021 11: 06
          +1
          Quote: 2534M
          Quote: Flashpoint
          One gets the opinion that there was communication,

          apparently today there will be a post in LJ (mina 030)
          I didn't dare to drag that TIN in the media, there are a lot of raids on Timokhin and me

          Thanks for aiming! I have already studied LJ. :)
          1. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 11: 52
            +2
            Quote: Flashpoint
            Thanks for aiming! I have already studied LJ

            I haven't posted it yet (about how the "Region" is being finished off)
    2. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 00: 37
      +2
      Quote: Kuroneko
      and with the same Obnosov you somehow tried to contact

      yes, as if after the episode in the photo, he approached himself ...
      taking into account the fact that it was IMDS-19 (i.e. after the GVMP-18 and the layout) faces belay some VIP soldiers standing next to them had to be seen laughing
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 8 February 2021 15: 00
    +1
    Another plus. If, when the scoop was abused by everyone, they still tried to compensate for the quality lag, at least in quantity, now there is a smart excuse - there is no money ... The fleet is expensive, but there is no money. And it has been said more than once that the fleet is needed, at least so that SSBNs do not shoot while standing at the pier. For their justified existence consists of combat patrols. And there is NOTHING to provide it! Therefore, in wartime, this part of the triad turns into a heap of iron, for the enemy is stronger in quality and quantity. There is a submarine - no torpedoes ... kapets ... request
    On the other hand, effective managers effectively derail natural resources, buy luxury ocean yachts, invest in football clubs ... But there is no money for the fleet ...
    There are no IVS on them ...
    1. A_Lex
      A_Lex 8 February 2021 17: 46
      0
      If, with the scoop scolded by everyone, they still tried to compensate at least in quantity for the quality lag


      I've realized that people reason stereotypically. Moreover, it is rather primitive, superficial. Something like this: if in the USSR there are no beautiful jeans, tasty Coca-Cola, and ours do not know how to remove the Alien as in the West, then we are qualitatively lagging behind, and not only in relation to jeans, Coca-Cola and Alien, but in principle and in general. And if we are qualitatively lagging behind and in general if we have problems, then we need not to catch up and solve problems, but to destroy everything and do it like in the West, because there are jeans, cola and Alien.
      That is how fools reason. It turns out that the education system of the USSR, despite all its remarkableness, massively produced fools. Fools not in the sense of professional specialization, this was just the order, but from the point of view of the correct worldview. The post-war USSR brought up the generation, which handed it over to the archives.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 8 February 2021 18: 30
        +3
        Quote: A_Lex
        I've realized that people reason stereotypically

        It is in the quality of the components of the fleet that we lost to the Americans. The author said a little about torpedoes. In terms of quietness, Los Angeles surpassed all Soviet ones. What's the use of titanium speed goldfish if you can hear them farther than your own sonar can hear? When the KOH of the Americans is much higher than ours due to the fact that they built a lot, and there was practically no service infrastructure. We also lagged behind on TTD. We lagged behind in electronics. We did not have aircraft carriers, therefore we could not really provide the areas for the deployment of the "strategists". And when they realized the significance and began to stir, the country was gone. And as an excuse, they consoled themselves that our SSBNs could even shoot from the pier ...
        And our educational system was excellent, but only the ideologization and bureaucracy moved the minds to the wrong place, where they were really needed, as well as undercover games between the design bureaus.
        That's why we had many more boats
        In 1985, the USSR Navy had 60 missile and 132 multipurpose submarines equipped with nuclear power plants (192 boats in total). At the same time, the US Navy had 38 missile and 97 multipurpose nuclear submarines.

        This is not counting the diesel ...
        Only at the present time, according to the admission of the Westerners themselves (although such curtsies can lull) our latest newest nuclear submarines have become more or less quiet and problematic. And so earlier, only on the basis of the experience and non-standard thinking of commanders, we still somehow played with cats and mice under water.
        And you say
        stereotypically
        .
        1. A_Lex
          A_Lex 8 February 2021 19: 37
          +1
          We also lagged behind in TTD. We were lagging behind in electronics, we had no aircraft carriers


          For the kit, you can also mention galoshes. Coca-Cola won in the end. Those. purely animals, primitive reflexes.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 9 February 2021 10: 23
            +2
            Quote: A_Lex
            Those. purely animals, primitive reflexes.

            Well, as usual, slogans instead of economics! Hooray!!!
            But Nikolaich is right about the fleet, for 160 surface ships, only 50 are actually combat-ready!
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 9 February 2021 14: 59
            0
            Quote: A_Lex
            For the kit, you can also mention galoshes.

            Galoshes will not work - because literally in the next sentence of that very speech, Garant was proud of the Soviet defense industry.
            Yes, my dear, yes. No need to discuss. The fact is that what we produced (and we don’t have to wave our hands), nobody needed, because nobody bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That is the whole point.

            We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense after the Great Patriotic War.

            From the audience: ... And the first satellite.

            Vladimir Putin: Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet government, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.

            But consumer goods ... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.
            1. A_Lex
              A_Lex 9 February 2021 15: 23
              0
              Galoshes will not work - because literally in the next sentence of that very speech, Garant was proud of the Soviet defense industry.


              Those. they have everything neatly taken into account in the training manual. Well, high-quality work cannot fail to impress.
      2. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 8 February 2021 20: 36
        +2
        Quote: A_Lex
        The post-war USSR brought up the generation, which handed it over to the archives. It turns out that the education system of the USSR, despite all its remarkableness, massively produced fools.

        fool
        The mistake of the Soviet people is that they are accustomed to trustingly follow the "course of the party," which monopolized the right to the ultimate truth ... And Krasnodar combine operators, corn growers and shape-shifters made their way to the leadership of the party ... itself into perestroika, which ended in a shootout and the coming to power of bad boys, yesterday's clerks of party apparatchiks ... the rotten intelligentsia of Moscow bottling ... Here you will think:
        Maybe, after all, Mao was right in sending the regenerate people who had broken away from the people for re-education in the countryside?
        Is this why the CCP is still the guiding and guiding force of Chinese society today?
        There were "social scientists" all around. Important ones ... But the "social" science was only moved sideways by the ML institute, and did not develop the "eternally living Marxist-Leninist doctrine", following the laws of dialectical materialism ...
        And of all the former partocracy, I personally "love" Comrade. Yakovleva. This is where Yudushka Golovlev blossomed in full bloom! Where is there before him to the gray cardinal Suslov ...
        (the saying is truly true: "To betray in time is to foresee!")
        And you blame the Soviet school ... laughing
        1. A_Lex
          A_Lex 8 February 2021 21: 56
          +2
          And one evil led a herd of rams with him into perestroika


          There is such an excellent film - Tales of Old Arbat. The film was released in 1982 and based on a play written in 1970. One of the few characters is Lyovushka. The type is a typical modern effective manager. And this is already in the early 70s. This is what I mean. Gorbachev alone, even with a team, would never have been able to unfold a nationwide trend, had it not been for a request from below.

          Maybe, after all, Mao was right in sending the regenerates who had broken away from the people for re-education in the countryside?


          I don't know about methods, but no ideology tolerates real pluralism.

          And you blame the Soviet school


          The Soviet school did not provide the most important thing - a clear understanding of the structure of society on planet earth.
          1. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 8 February 2021 23: 05
            +2
            Quote: A_Lex
            Gorbachev alone, even with a team, would never have been able to unleash a nationwide trend, had it not been for a request from below.

            AHA, the thesis about the "request from below" is especially good ... You probably meant "The fight against drunkenness", which began ... with the felling of vineyards !!!! Continue further, or is everything clear?
            Quote: A_Lex
            no ideology tolerates true pluralism.
            GDR! There were already 5 political parties in the political system at that time. The SED could open any valve in order to bleed off the steam of popular discontent ... and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union got bronze up to the waist, and from above ... Everyone knows the result.
            Quote: A_Lex
            a clear understanding of the structure of society on planet earth.

            I have the impression that you did not study in high school and did not attend the Social Science lessons, did not hold a textbook in your hands ... A serious gap in your education laughing
            1. A_Lex
              A_Lex 9 February 2021 00: 25
              0
              the thesis about "request from below" is especially good ... You probably meant "The fight against drunkenness"


              Not. I mean, by the beginning of Perestroika, a full-fledged bourgeois society had already been formed in the Union, and people, in one way or another, were impressed by the values ​​of the consumer society.

              GDR!


              When the USSR began to fall, all the others reflexively reoriented themselves to new owners. All these systems are not indicative because they are not self-sufficient.

              lessons "Social Studies"


              Various theories divorced from reality, like the same dialectical materialism, have no applied value.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 9 February 2021 11: 16
                +3
                Quote: A_Lex
                by the beginning of Perestroika, a full-fledged bourgeois society had already been formed in the Union, and people, in one way or another, were impressed by the values ​​of the consumer society.

                Why do you think so?
                Quote: A_Lex
                When the USSR began to fall, all the rest reflexively reoriented to new owners

                So we ourselves have filled up these "everyone else" !!!!! Themselves all a kick in the ass was given, and now we are surprised, why is it nobody likes us ???
      3. unknown
        unknown 8 February 2021 20: 55
        -1
        What does the education system have to do with it?
        All revolutions are made from above.
        The problem of the USSR is the absence of an "elite".
        That is, the social stratum that is aware of its responsibility to the country.
        It takes ninety years to get the first generation of the "elite".
        The USSR lasted less, the "elite" did not have time to form.
        1. A_Lex
          A_Lex 8 February 2021 22: 00
          +2
          The problem of the USSR is the absence of an "elite".
          That is, the social stratum that is aware of its responsibility to the country.


          There is no such layer in reality and never was. Always and everywhere, the "elite" includes only those who believe that society is their personal property, which they can use for their own good. That is why the USSR perished, because the party elite degenerated into this very "elite".

          All revolutions are made from above.


          Lying.

          It takes ninety years to get the first generation of the "elite".


          Nonsense. Elite geeks in the Russian Federation were born much faster.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 9 February 2021 11: 19
            +1
            Quote: A_Lex
            All revolutions are made from above.


            Lying.

            Can you give an example of the opposite?

            Quote: A_Lex
            Elite geeks in the Russian Federation were born much faster.

            What do you mean by the term "Elite"?
            1. A_Lex
              A_Lex 9 February 2021 13: 37
              0
              Can you give an example of the opposite?


              Cuba.

              What do you mean by the term "Elite"?


              The above is written.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 10 February 2021 08: 39
                +1
                Quote: A_Lex
                Cuba.

                what Did the people revolt there?
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 8 February 2021 23: 11
          +1
          Quote: ignoto
          The USSR lasted less, the "elite" did not have time to form.

          Quote: A_Lex
          That is why the USSR perished, because the party elite degenerated into this very "elite".

          Dear! Are you serious!? Maybe remember about the "party nomenklatura" - party functionaries who broke away from ordinary party members and from the people ... This nomenclature was puffed up by the elite ...
  • Kart
    Kart 8 February 2021 15: 28
    -16%
    The purpose of this article is to leave a thought in the reader's head - "it's all sad, everything is sold to the oligarchs, go out."
    Looks like just shouting slogans no longer works, they can throw a pendyuly into a panama hat.
    But yes, you can.
    1. Flashpoint
      Flashpoint 8 February 2021 15: 43
      +5
      Quote: Carte
      The purpose of this article is to leave a thought in the reader's head - "it's all sad, everything is sold to the oligarchs, go out."
      Looks like just shouting slogans no longer works, they can throw a pendyuly into a panama hat.
      But yes, you can.

      Not everything is sad.
      laughing Well, where is Putin here ... There are problems, a person spends, one might say, his life to improve the current state and change the state of affairs, to move this colossus. Writes articles, applies to the competent authorities. Good - there are people like the author of the article!
      PS: I didn't minus you, if that hi
    2. timokhin-aa
      8 February 2021 18: 12
      +4
      The purpose of this article, like all others, is to force the Ministry of Defense to prepare for military action for REAL.

      As I understand it, you are against it.

      Why?
      1. frog
        frog 9 February 2021 17: 25
        0
        As I understand it, you are against it.

        Why?

        Taki was ordered not to allow the vilification of the bright present and a much brighter future. What you and your colleague do tirelessly wink And the comrade is in the service and there is no question at all repeat , who is the initiator ..... With this, it is much worse, but the great helmsman said something like that love
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 8 February 2021 21: 00
      +8
      Quote: Carte
      Looks like just slogans to shout is no longer valid

      Styopa, well, you can't measure everyone by yourself, sirom!
      MINA is a fighter! He does not hide behind the backs of authorities, but he himself fights in his trench ... Receiving drenduli from those who have settled up higher for this! And this is not exactly what each of us would like to receive for our position.
      There is no policy in the article. It is true in the article, but it is difficult for even experts to perceive it. each of us still hopes for the best ...
      "And it is - how about!" (C) And this insults our inner sense of pride in the Navy, as an integral part of the RF Armed Forces, the country's favorite brainchild ...
      The child is still growing poor. This offends the unstable, gullible ... The box is singing to us about the "no analogs" wunderwafe .. And here - not ICE! and it smells bad of corruption, matchmaking, nepotism, shadow schemes and the undercover struggle of Gidropribor / Dagdizel groups ... Well, who might like that?
      So the heart of the patriots is breaking in half and to smithereens! How else could it be? - There is no other way! Himself like that. But I am a navy, so I know something outside the media.
      Maxim is right. But he was banned again, because Timokhin, apparently, did not have time to literally trim and comb all of his emotional expressions. So the author got another ban from our vigilant admins.
      (And Schaub was disagreeable to others !!!)
      AHA.
  • Paphnutius the Unforgettable
    Paphnutius the Unforgettable 8 February 2021 16: 22
    -3
    Have you ever read something positive from Klimov? Everything is either bad or very bad for him! He wouldn't write about it!
    1. timokhin-aa
      8 February 2021 18: 28
      +3
      The question is not what "he has", but that we seem to have a war on the doorstep, and again we are not ready - although we could.
      What Klimov writes about.
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 8 February 2021 18: 55
        +4
        we seem to have a war on the doorstep


        Why should they fight? There is already a population with Western culture in their heads. The colonial system of the economy already exists. There is already a lack of breakthrough projects and any desire for systemic development in this regard. There is already a complete absence of a coherent ideology. Reliable elimination of any integration processes as a consequence of the current national-bourgeois model of degradation, firmly rooted in the minds, already exists.

        It is unclear what else they will achieve beneficial to them as a result of victory, which has not yet been achieved through the efforts of the administration itself.
        1. Alexander Lysenko
          Alexander Lysenko 8 February 2021 22: 24
          +3
          Read all articles by Timokhin and Klimov. If you master, your world will change forever.
          1. A_Lex
            A_Lex 9 February 2021 00: 27
            +3
            I read some. The articles are certainly interesting. Only one thing is not clear - why should they fight a de facto conquered country that does not pose a threat to their world order.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 9 February 2021 11: 29
              -1
              Quote: A_Lex
              why should they fight a de facto conquered country that does not pose a threat to their world order.

              Then why do they need these feints with sanctions, threats, Navalny? The country is de facto already theirs! Explain to me an old collective farmer ...
              1. A_Lex
                A_Lex 9 February 2021 13: 29
                +3
                Then why do they need these feints with sanctions, threats, Navalny?


                Sanctions and threats do not change either the colonial status of the economy or the construction of new gas pipelines in the EU. Most likely they need all this farce to create the illusion of plausibility, which needs to be shoved into the local aborigines. Say, look for yourself, since there is such an irreconcilable confrontation at the top, it means that the country is as if independent and you, the population, do not need to do anything, since the leadership is supposedly pursuing an independent course anyway.

                Actually, why all these difficulties in the form of a real occupation imposed by the administration, headaches with the suppression of the sepoy uprisings and other troubles, when the confrontation can be imitated and thus instilled in the aborigines that they are supposedly independent. The main thing is achieved: the country is gradually losing its competitive position in the world market and, purely technologically, does not pose a threat to the metropolises, the population works for a pittance, resources and money are steadily flowing out of the country and work for the benefit of the metropolises, etc.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 9 February 2021 14: 07
                  0
                  Quote: A_Lex
                  Most likely they need all this farce to create the illusion of plausibility, which needs to be shoved into the local aborigines.

                  What a complicated scheme, isn't it? In the 90s in Russia and now in Ukraine everything is much simpler and moreover the scheme works!
                  Quote: A_Lex
                  Sanctions and threats do not change either the colonial status of the economy or the construction of new gas pipelines in the EU.

                  laughing Well, if you follow your theory, the occupation began in the distant 70s with an increase in oil and gas exports.
                  1. A_Lex
                    A_Lex 9 February 2021 14: 21
                    0
                    What a complicated scheme, isn't it?


                    Nothing too complicated. The main thing is that the small administration should actively pose as patriots, and the media unanimously punch the brains of the population. Staging a performance in the media space is much easier than waging real military operations and suppressing real uprisings, which are always fraught with unpredictable results.

                    the occupation began in the distant 70s with an increase in oil and gas exports


                    Of course not. The USSR was not a gas station, unlike the current version. Hospitals and schools were not reduced, products from palm trees and fodder grain were not made, there was no need to come to work in Moscow from all over the country, prices for everything did not rise every year, there was no need to work 2-3 jobs, there are millions of beggars as now it was, there was no need to import guest workers, for the sake of dumping for wages and increasing the income of the oligarchs, etc. etc. Since every citizen had the opportunity to live like a human being, then there is no need to talk about a colony.
        2. Serg65
          Serg65 9 February 2021 11: 27
          -3
          Quote: A_Lex
          Why should they fight?

          what Are you going to volunteer?
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 9 February 2021 11: 26
        -4
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        we seem to have a war on the doorstep

        Why on the doorstep? It is already underway ..... On January 23 and 31, local battles took place! USA-Russia, 0-1 in favor of Russia! Or do you, Sasha, think that the United States will attack us with the classic war?
        1. 2534M
          2534M 9 February 2021 12: 15
          +5
          Quote: Serg65
          0-1 in favor of Russia!

          to the doctor
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 9 February 2021 12: 18
            -3
            Quote: 2534M
            to the doctor

            what Was he sick or what?
            1-0 in favor of the USA?
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 12: 48
              +4
              Quote: Serg65
              Was he sick or what?

              SLOVOBLUDOV wassat do not digest angry
              Quote: Serg65
              1-0 in favor of the USA?

              yes, at least 0-10 is not in favor of the USA wassat - don't tear the trampoline just out of zeal, "sofa warrior" lol
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 9 February 2021 14: 17
                -4
                Quote: 2534M
                SLOVOBLUDOV I do not digest

                what have you changed?
                Quote: 2534M
                yes, at least 0-10 is not in favor of the USA

                Did you hang Navalny's portrait in the most prominent place?
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 9 February 2021 15: 03
                  +3
                  Quote: Serg65
                  do

                  come to the mirror - you will see the verbiage
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Did you hang Navalny's portrait in the most prominent place?

                  fool
                  going to the Olginsky they began to recruit not only from "6 chambers", but also zoos wassat
                  there is no greenpeace on you lol
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 10 February 2021 08: 01
                    +1
                    Quote: 2534M
                    yes, at least 0-10 is not in favor of the USA

                    Maxim, you were already shaved in 91 and walked under epaulettes with anchors? Remind me .... which army attacked the USSR in 1991? I would also like to recall those battles as a result of which the USSR ceased to exist as a state? How many ICBMs did the 25th DPL manage to fire at the enemy?
                    1. 2534M
                      2534M 10 February 2021 12: 07
                      +1
                      Quote: Serg65
                      How many ICBMs did the 25th DPL manage to fire at the enemy?

                      Let me remind you that the same paratrooper throw into Pristina in 1999 could take place only because the Strategic Missile Forces and suicide bombers of 25 DPL were behind them
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 10 February 2021 12: 44
                        +3
                        Quote: 2534M
                        Let me remind you that the same paratrooper throw into Pristina in 1999 could take place only because the Strategic Missile Forces and suicide bombers of 25 DPL were behind them

                        Maxim, if not for the steel bells of Primakov and Kvashnin, then there would not have been this throw ... and the Strategic Missile Forces and 25dpl are here with their left side!
                        And I asked you not about this, but about what war the USSR died from! Because of the same "war" Russia will also perish ... unless, of course, the Russian leadership does not reconsider its views on this problem!
          2. S. Viktorovich
            S. Viktorovich 9 February 2021 14: 51
            -1
            Proctologist?
      3. Paphnutius the Unforgettable
        Paphnutius the Unforgettable 10 February 2021 13: 24
        -1
        Those. write nonsense on all military topics in a row under the motto "boss, it's all gone!" is it to help prepare for a possible war? For example, as a former submariner, I can clearly see the nonsense published by him. Those. he is not a specialist, but an ordinary windbag, angrily denouncing everything ...
    2. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 00: 27
      +1
      Quote: Paphnutius the Unforgettable
      Have you ever read something positive from Klimov?

      well, read it
      for example
      https://topwar.ru/155667-javljaetsja-li-proekt-941-akula-gordostju-otechestvennogo-podvodnogo-korablestroenija-otvet-bezuslovno-da.html
      1. Paphnutius the Unforgettable
        Paphnutius the Unforgettable 10 February 2021 13: 41
        -1
        Well, yes, for amateurs the article really looks serious. First, a compilation of statements about "Shark", and then conclusions. Here they are for those who understand very funny!
        For example, Klimov writes: “the modernization of the 941 project automatically entailed the modernization of only 3 generations of nuclear-powered ships (due to the very high standardization of equipment). , in the world known as "Komsomolets". Or with projects 941? Where did he see very high unification? There is unification like a tug with a corvette!
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 8 February 2021 16: 45
    +4
    I strongly doubt that anyone in this system is not aware of the cut / rollback system. Unless he's a janitor or a janitor, of course. And that is unlikely. Why do you need a structure that consumes money but does not produce results? Of course she is not needed. It would seem that. Because this structure provides cutting of the budget and there is a result. For pocket saws. If liquidated, then to whom should budget money be allocated for the subsequent "development"?
    So you are all wrong, as is the author. Enterprises are working successfully. Only their task is different - to cut the budget for all interested, and there are many of them. And whether something will turn out with torpedoes or not, this is the second or third or last question.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 8 February 2021 21: 15
      +5
      Quote: sevtrash
      And whether something will turn out with torpedoes or not, this is the second or third or last question.

      About how you spoke! It's the same as saying to an infantryman: - You, brother, do not be offended, they will kill you, but you have to be patient ... This is the second or third question, and maybe the last in your life ...
      Only a boat is not a single rifle cell. In our country, either everyone wins, or everyone dies ... Therefore, I really want my brothers submariners to return to Vidyaevo, Gadzhievo, Vilyuchinsk with a victory, to the sound of artillery volleys according to the number of sunk targets. Alive and healthy !!!
      And for this you need a weapon better than that of your enemies ... the skill of the crew and LUCK!
  • Bradley
    Bradley 8 February 2021 17: 22
    +7
    It becomes scary for our submarine fleet (primarily for people), which will go into battle with what is described in the article. God forbid...
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 8 February 2021 18: 56
    +5
    Author: Maxim Klimov

    Thanks to the author for the NON-deep picture of the state of affairs in our torpedo case. As an engineer for torpedo control systems, it is sad for me that for 40 years since my graduation from the PF LKI, the development of underwater weapons in the Russian Federation has been marking time and lagging even more behind the "foes".

    And already an attempt by the military officials of the Federation Council to oblige to establish the repair of the "Instrument of the torpedo course" produced by the Kiev plant. Petrovsky (in the past), i.e. a hostile Ukrainian ... states? This is nonsense in a cube !!!
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 8 February 2021 20: 31
      -2
      Only now it is not clear why the author took that the new torpedo is UET-1E, created within the framework of the Ichthyosaur ROC. Maybe these are different torpedoes, new for our fleet, and UET-1E for export - there is no point in adopting it for service, since it is inferior in performance characteristics to the same UGST.
      1. 2534M
        2534M 8 February 2021 23: 43
        +3
        Quote: Vadim237
        there is no point in adopting it for service, since it is inferior to the same UGST in terms of performance characteristics.

        1.depending on what
        2. There was not a single contract for the UGST, and in fact it is not reproducible in the series
      2. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 12: 20
        +3
        Quote: Vadim237
        Only now it is not clear why the author took that the new torpedo is UET-1E, created within the framework of the Ichthyosaurus ROC. Maybe these are different torpedoes new for our fleet

        fool
        yeah, "yesterday that's just Vadik-Vadim 237 wassat I drew it in my notebook " lol
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 9 February 2021 00: 11
    +1
    Quote: aars
    What does "a huge drop in its efficiency" mean?
    Under what conditions? Any even more powerful electric motors have an efficiency of 90% in general.


    DP-31U heats up during operation, the further, the more. In the end, it literally gets hot.

    "... the temperature of the windings of the DP-31U engine at the end of the operation reaches 600-700gC, and the steel of the poles at the end of the operation glows from heating .... high heating leads to a significant drop in the engine efficiency during the torpedo stroke, and to the heating of the units surrounding the engine , transit cables, and most importantly - to a one-time combat mode of the engine. "

    The more the engine heats up, the lower its efficiency. Indeed, as is known, the temperature coefficient of resistance α for copper is 0,004 1 / deg. Therefore, when heated to 100 °, the resistance of the copper conductor increases by 40%. And here the heating is ~ 600 ° C, the resistance in comparison with what it was at the beginning of work increases by 230-270%.

    Is there any point in putting a high-capacity battery on a torpedo with DP-31U? At first, the efficiency of the engine simply drops, and then it simply collapses from heating up to 700gC for a longer time than before.
    1. aars
      aars 9 February 2021 16: 05
      -2
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The more the engine heats up, the lower its efficiency. Indeed, as is known, the temperature coefficient of resistance α for copper is 0,004 1 / deg. Therefore, when heated to 100 °, the resistance of the copper conductor increases by 40%. And here the heating is ~ 600 ° C, the resistance in comparison with what it was at the beginning of work increases by 230-270%.
      This is known to absolutely everyone who has worked with electric motors.
      That is why it is not clear from the inarticulate phrases of the author of the article - why not put some kind of cooler?
      What to look for efficiency when the way to improve on the existing one is trivial?

      It even involuntarily suggests itself that it is a stupid question - what kind of engine?
      General industrial rewound or crane?
      1. 2534M
        2534M 9 February 2021 16: 13
        +2
        Quote: aars
        That is why it is not clear from the inarticulate phrases of the author of the article - why not put some kind of cooler?

        YOUR MOSKH is tongue-tied wassat
        because "some kind of cooler" requires SPACE and VOLUMES
        Quote: aars
        What to look for efficiency when the way to improve on the existing one is trivial?

        only the design solutions in the TORPED conditions "for some reason" for this turn out to be VERY NON-Trivial
        Quote: aars
        It even involuntarily suggests itself that it is a stupid question - what kind of engine?
        General industrial rewound or crane?

        fool
        SPECIAL

        PS Tell me, YOU really are SO STUPID wassat or "just pretending"?
        1. aars
          aars 9 February 2021 16: 18
          -2
          Objection to tongue-tied nonsense and you yourself involuntarily look the same.
          He laughed a little.
          1. 2534M
            2534M 9 February 2021 16: 21
            +2
            Quote: aars
            He laughed a little.

            wrong address
            have a laugh at the doctor - there will just be lol
  • 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 00: 49
    0
    not offtopic

    chances are that this Nonsense to the command of the Navy "put on the head" - FULLY
    It is high time to transfer the case to the "criminal plane", because the "train" there is "railway" angry
  • S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 9 February 2021 16: 06
    -3
    There are many problems, but these small-town people, who want to pass off their inferiority complexes as common problems, will not solve anything.
    1. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 16: 31
      +1
      Quote: S. Viktorovich
      A lot of problems

      by the way, you somehow jumped off the topic of "achievements" (in quotes) of "Gidropribor"
      I would very much like to continue - with the facts of this belay
      1. S. Viktorovich
        S. Viktorovich 9 February 2021 17: 40
        -1
        Most importantly, do not be offended. For some reason "Gidropribor", which for me is just the memories of my youth, is so important to you. Probably a competitor? I just cited it as an example of the degradation of a company that at one time had practically the entire "market" of naval weapons in today's terms. I can, but I don’t want to name other, more powerful offices in this sense.
        "Achievements" - alas, I can't publish everything that I know here. I can offer your team the criticized parameters of minesweepers - seekers who, Thank God, have finally gone into series (there are no others). These are the OKRs of "Gidropribor" of the early 70s - "Ray", "Anaconda", "Halibut", "Light", etc.
        You can criticize them, you will be right in something, but without them, nothing would have happened even now.
        1. 2534M
          2534M 9 February 2021 19: 00
          +2
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          Probably a competitor?

          fool
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          the degradation of the company, which at one time had almost the entire "market" of naval weapons by today's concepts

          degradation began "not now" - but also "then", and in full
          a vivid example of ROTTING a monopolist in the USSR

          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          I can offer your team the criticized parameters of minesweepers - seekers who, Thank God, have finally gone into series (there are no others). These are the OKRs of "Gidropribor" of the early 70s - "Ray", "Anaconda", "Halibut", "Light", etc.
          You can criticize them, you will be right in something, but without them, nothing would have happened even now.

          fool
          YOU exactly wrote this ACHINA on a sober head?
          WHAT "went into series"?!?!?!
          Without "what" the same "Mayevka" would not have appeared?!?! That which YOU CARRY has nothing to do with the "new"!
          Quote: S. Viktorovich
          "Achievements" - alas, I can't publish everything that I know here.

          so that YOU do not "jump off" (under the pretext of "SECRETNESS") I will leave YOU a link (OPEN)
          http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/MPO_2005.html
          1. S. Viktorovich
            S. Viktorovich 9 February 2021 19: 28
            -3
            Alas, the client is hopeless. Fighting windmills is everything.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 9 February 2021 19: 38
              +2
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              Alas, the client is hopeless.

              No, monsieur. It's just that YOU are a LIE, - unable to answer for your words
          2. S. Viktorovich
            S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 15: 55
            -1
            Looked at the link to the Gidropribor Museum. You guys are petty against them.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 11 February 2021 15: 57
              -2
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              Looked at the link to the Gidropribor museum.

              YOU were asked a SPECIFIC question - from which YOU SPECIFICALLY DONE
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              You guys are petty against them.

              Monsieur, YOU ARE NOBODY and CALL YOU ANYWHERE
              as for me and the subject matter of this museum, the opinions of such persons as Proshkin, Tikhonov and a number of others are more than enough for me
              1. S. Viktorovich
                S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 16: 26
                -1
                Sorry, I answered your question. The fact that you are not aware of what was done before borrowing French is your problem.
                Learn history, materiel, physics and do not be rude to your interlocutors - and you will be happy.
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 11 February 2021 16: 33
                  -1
                  Quote: S. Viktorovich
                  to your question

                  YOU DOWN
                  Quote: S. Viktorovich
                  That you are not aware of what has been done

                  Monsieur, YOU have no idea what I know
                  specifically on "Ray" I have more than details on "Courage", and in articles (moreover, my good friend at one time used "Luch" NONSTALLY - like western TNPA PMO, and successfully)
                  I am familiar with "Anaconda" incl. "handles", and I personally know those who have this "miracle Yudo" EVEN WORKED IN THE FLEET
                  etc.
                  And the main thing is that YOU, without understanding anything about this, brought in something that was not done in the Central Research Institute "Gidropribor" (except for "Ray"), because with the seizure of power in "Hydra" and the formation of the NGO "UrОMr. Isakov DROPPED A “NON-PROFILE” (as he believed) asset to Kazakhstan. With all the ensuing consequences - which not allowed until 1991 to make a normal TNLA PMO. They swung at it in "Route", but the USSR ended, and "Mayevka", which was made on the remnants of "Route" money, could not take ANYTHING from it, EVERYTHING in it was done from scratch!
                  1. S. Viktorovich
                    S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 16: 53
                    -1
                    I can cite the favorite saying of Karapetyan, Chief Designer of "Anaconda" - "if you want to climb the tree and not tear your pants." Very out of place.
                    1. 2534M
                      2534M 11 February 2021 17: 53
                      -2
                      Quote: S. Viktorovich
                      "you want to climb the tree and not tear your pants." Very out of place.

                      is it YOU about your SLAVERY?
                      I'm actually writing about the REAL SOLUTION OF PROBLEMS
                      and what was the descent of "Anaconda" on the same BTShch on the usual 3-point excitement in the Barents Sea - a separate "pestnya" belay
                      and most importantly - it was a FORMED dead end (then) direction
                      1. S. Viktorovich
                        S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 18: 03
                        -1
                        For the authors of such remarks, Karapetyan also had a characteristic (sorry, this is a direct quote) - "shit and croak". And this direction ("Anaconda") became obsolete only after the creation of normal acoustic seekers. In the 70s, optical seekers showed themselves quite well in the Black Sea.
              2. S. Viktorovich
                S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 17: 10
                -1
                Proshkin suggested that I look at the museum in the 75s, but then I preferred to talk to the former XNUMXth department. I did not regret it, although I felt sorry for the firm.
          3. S. Viktorovich
            S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 16: 47
            -1
            Surprisingly, these chatters did not even look at what the Gidropribor museum offered them. I there (looked for the first time) found a lot of familiar names and themes. The current retirees do not even understand what they are talking about, it is beyond their horizons. They don't know where, what came from. Just by reading the names, you can find out directions of development that they have not even heard of. Let them read fairy tales to grandchildren, and not climb into technology.
            1. 2534M
              2534M 11 February 2021 17: 51
              0
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              The current retirees do not even understand what is being said there, this is beyond their horizons

              YOU save your crazy fantasy for doctors
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              Just by reading the names, you can find out directions of development that they have not even heard of

              why did YOU decide this? because YOU are so "hot" (and YOU have "fillet blazing"?)
              Quote: S. Viktorovich
              and not in the technique climb.

              technology is definitely not YOURS
              so tell your grandchildren stories
              1. S. Viktorovich
                S. Viktorovich 11 February 2021 18: 08
                -1
                Something you are merging. Is rudeness over? I thought you were from the navy, "but the navy doesn't catch butterflies."
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 11 February 2021 18: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: S. Viktorovich
                  Something you merge

                  Monsieur YOU have beguiled something
                  and walk through life
                  pick up your nonsense
                  Quote: S. Viktorovich
                  I thought

                  it doesn't seem that YOU were capable of "thinking"
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 9 February 2021 17: 11
    +1
    Quote: aars
    This is known to absolutely everyone who has worked with electric motors.
    That is why it is not clear from the inarticulate phrases of the author of the article - why not put some kind of cooler?

    What kind of cooler? How can you cool the windings of electromagnets rotating at a speed of 2000 rpm and hot to 700 degrees Celsius under water? Where to get a powerful stream of cold gas (air) under water?

    Therefore, it was proposed to replace the long-obsolete electric motor with a modern one that does not heat up so much during operation. Which was answered:

    "... Replacing the DP-31U engine on old 2503 products with a new EPV-390 engine is impractical, this replacement leads to an unjustified increase in the cost of the contract and additional budgetary costs.

    According to the product developer 2503, OJSC "Concern" PMO-Gidropribor "... only needs to lubricate ..."


    What is incomprehensible here? "This is our cow, and we milk it!" A curtain.
    1. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 18: 05
      +2
      Quote: AlexanderA
      How can you cool the windings of electromagnets under water

      can
      if the design of the ED provides this
      but this cooling system itself will be a high-tech (example DM2A4, where there are two of them - on the ED and the gearbox)
  • 2534M
    2534M 9 February 2021 19: 37
    +3
    Quote: aars
    The author of the book is 82 years old and does he work?

    I knew people (and one of them is a woman) who, at this age, went to trials (including at sea)
  • Protos
    Protos 9 February 2021 22: 58
    -4
    Near-technical libel laughing
    Like all past publications!
    1. 2534M
      2534M 9 February 2021 23: 21
      +4
      Quote: Protos
      Near-technical libel
      Like all past publications!

      YOU forgot to add:
      - Immediately shoot the author!
  • 2534M
    2534M 17 February 2021 12: 43
    0
    today this dock is perceived as funny (taking into account the complete success and real efficiency of the BPMM 0,97-, 98)