Military Review

Thrust loss issues for WS-15 aircraft engine force China to pay special attention to stage 2 engine for Su-57

126
Thrust loss issues for WS-15 aircraft engine force China to pay special attention to stage 2 engine for Su-57

China continues to show problems with aviation engines that are planned to be used on the fifth generation fighters J-20 and J-31. We are talking about power plants WS-15. If in November 2019, publications began to appear in the Chinese media, in which it was asserted about a "breakthrough" in the creation of these engines, then the information vigor in this regard faded somewhat.


The reason, as it turns out, is the unresolved problem of a sharp drop in the thrust of the WS-15 engine when the temperature of the turbine of the power plant approaches the operating parameters. When the temperature exceeds 1350 degrees Celsius, the engine loses its thrust, and initially the loss reached 25 percent, which, for obvious reasons, is unacceptable for fighters claiming high maneuverability. In the end, it is also simply dangerous during the flight, because the pilot can lose control of the fighter.

Recently, the loss of thrust when the turbine reaches the operating temperature indicator has been reduced to about 18%. However, the Chinese engine builders have not been able to completely get rid of this problem. It is believed that one of the problems is associated with the alloy used, the optimal composition of which has already been tried to be selected several times, changing the original options. Another problem is the accumulation of fuel in the engine without its timely combustion.

In this regard, China does not hide the fact that they expect a demonstration in Russia of fifth-generation Su-57 fighters with engines of the so-called second stage. We are talking about "Product 30" - a by-pass turbojet engine with an afterburner. Ignition of fuel, as described in open sources, in a Russian engine is carried out directly when it enters the combustion chamber, equipped with a plasma ignition system with installation on injectors. This allows you to avoid various options for inefficient fuel combustion, which, as in the same Chinese ones, led to a final loss of thrust. At the same time, in the Russian engine of the second stage, the working temperature of the gases reaches 1800 degrees Celsius, and the thrust on the afterburner is 18 tons.

For China, the technology used by Russian engine builders is clearly important, and therefore there is a possibility that the PRC will nevertheless decide in the end to order a limited batch of Su-57 with engines developed under the Product 30 program. Thus, the WS-15's thrust loss issues are forcing China to pay special attention to the second stage engines for Russian fighters.

Chinese military experts point out that just such an option for importing the Su-57 would be acceptable. This is how Chinese engine-building technologies are forged ...
126 comments
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  1. Victor_B
    Victor_B 4 February 2021 18: 17
    +27
    Well, in a batch of XNUMX pieces or more, you can sell option "E".
    1. nikolas 83
      nikolas 83 4 February 2021 18: 21
      +68
      Without an engine of the 2nd stage. For export only with the usual. Otherwise we develop with great difficulty and then the technology will be copied and they will boast of what they are great.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 4 February 2021 20: 27
        +20
        They will not be able to copy anything, they have repeatedly tried over the decades - all their copies had a small resource.
        1. hirurg
          hirurg 4 February 2021 20: 57
          +6
          Yes, you can't copy it. All the salt is in the shoulder blades. More precisely, in their internal structure and materials of manufacture.
        2. Dodikson
          Dodikson 5 February 2021 04: 19
          -11%
          our engines are also inferior to Western ones in terms of resource and what?
          we make and use, and no complexes about the resource.
          so the Chinese will do and will use theirs.
          only nothing can be transferred to them, they will then throw us out of the arms market. they are now, and not we are the second in the sale of weapons.
          but until recently it sounded completely ridiculous.
          so now - we will sell the technology, then we can safely forget about the market of fighters and bombers
          1. Nitarius
            Nitarius 5 February 2021 07: 19
            +2
            in what place)) ours are inferior to the western ones))? the Americans themselves have long recognized))) that ours are always better than them))) so .. you shouldn't)
            1. Dodikson
              Dodikson 5 February 2021 13: 12
              -7
              here is no extra bravado.
              in metallurgy, the West has overtaken us. with what a long time.
              and the resource is no longer only for their engines (the resource of their engine hours is far from a secret and is on the Internet. You can compare it yourself) but also for the trunks.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 5 February 2021 13: 31
                +3
                "In metallurgy, the West has overtaken us - and for a long time." An example for metallurgy?
                1. Dodikson
                  Dodikson 5 February 2021 13: 36
                  -6
                  it is impossible, because even if I quote it, you will still not be able to read it, your letters in words that you do not like do not add up.
                  That is why you have not read about the resource of aircraft engines in the West and ours, and about the resource of barrels.
                  the eyes don't see what they don't like.
            2. Ingenegr
              Ingenegr 5 February 2021 13: 56
              +2
              Quote: Nitarius
              Americans themselves have long recognized

              When did it happen? The resource of domestic TRDFs is at least 30 ... 40% lower than analogs of American production. As an example, the resource of the RD-33 is 1600 hours versus 4000 for the F110.
              1. Eroma
                Eroma 5 February 2021 21: 43
                +2
                I heard about the motor resource that THEM had an important indicator from the very beginning, because bourgeois money always counted! The motor resource greatly saves on operation and therefore they were worried about it even at the design stage! bully
                In the USSR, they did not consider money for operation, and most importantly, the engine had performance characteristics and a motor resource acceptable for BATTLE ACTIONS! good
                Hence the difference in motor life what
                In the newest engines like Product 30, I think with a motor resource it will be no worse than that of the bourgeoisie, since we, too, now bourgeoisie and also like to count money drinks
      2. Starover_Z
        Starover_Z 4 February 2021 20: 36
        +14
        Quote: nikolas 83
        Without an engine of the 2nd stage. For export only with the usual. Otherwise we develop with great difficulty and then the technology will be copied and they will boast of what they are great.

        So if they were just boasting, otherwise even there were reprints allegedly from them that they say their planes are of the 5th generation O-GO-GO and the Russians are so-so, a parody. So let them take "limited" parties from the amers and, like the Indians, demand the localization of production, if possible!
      3. AUL
        AUL 4 February 2021 21: 51
        +15
        Quote: nikolas 83
        and then the technology will be copied and boasted about how great they are.

        It is relatively easy to copy the design. The material is also. But it is almost impossible to restore the production technology according to the available part. And in such products, the operational properties depend primarily on the manufacturing technology!
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 4 February 2021 22: 53
          +7
          I heard a story ... For what I bought it.
          When the whole Fau was brought to the USSR, there was an attempt to copy it.
          In the course of the work, it turned out that 110 alloys were used in the design, which were not in the USSR. And I had to do everything from scratch ...
          1. ikrut
            ikrut 5 February 2021 20: 14
            -2
            What do I think. that fairy tales are all about "110 alloys". At 75 we were trained in the design and operation of engines and assemblies of the 8K63 rocket (model 60) using the example of cut samples of FAU assemblies. Then 8K63 were still widely in service. Copied almost exactly. THA is practically one to one. With the engine - the same picture.
      4. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 5 February 2021 14: 38
        +3
        Quote: nikolas 83
        Without an engine of the 2nd stage. For export only with the usual. Otherwise we develop with great difficulty and then the technology will be copied and they will boast of what they are great.

        And without these engines, China will not take it. After all, the body also works as a passive headlight, in short, there are a lot of new technologies and it's not worth feeding China
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 6 February 2021 14: 39
          -1
          there are many new technologies and it's not worth feeding China

          There is no point in sitting on technology either. Everything is slowly becoming obsolete.
          3 skins from China and invest the money received in further development, perhaps it makes sense.
          But Saturn-30 engines are still a pity to sell even dearly ... hi
          1. persimmon ufimtsev
            persimmon ufimtsev 6 February 2021 15: 21
            0
            "But the Saturn-30 engines are still a pity to sell them at a high price."
            Do you think the intelligence of potential adversaries is not looking at the Military Acceptance?
    2. keeper03
      keeper03 4 February 2021 18: 23
      +12
      Better than 200 and with two "EE"! yes
    3. prior
      prior 4 February 2021 18: 36
      +22
      Someday we will learn to keep what we have, so that later we will not cry when we lose it.
      They themselves have not received a single new engine, but they are already ready to sell it to China in hundreds.
      1. The popuas
        The popuas 4 February 2021 18: 40
        +19
        Where is it written that you are ready to sell? .. This is not in the article
        1. bad
          bad 4 February 2021 19: 59
          +12
          Quote: Popuas
          Where is it written that you are ready to sell? .. This is not in the article

          This is how Rosoboronexport will decide.
        2. the most important
          the most important 4 February 2021 23: 42
          -5
          Quote: Popuas
          Where is it written that you are ready to sell? .. This is not in the article

          A little about something else, but still ..... 600 doses of vaccines against the corona virus were sent to Argentina. And this is not the only place in the world where the vaccine is sent. But in Russia, vaccination can be done freely only in Moscow. A little more than 000 doses have been delivered to our region of 2 million people. And the plans for the year are only 10 doses. But what should the remaining 000 be counted on?
          1. Kart
            Kart 5 February 2021 12: 28
            +4
            Quote: the most important
            But in Russia, the vaccine can be done freely only in Moscow. A little more than 2 doses have been delivered to our region of 10 million people. And the plans for the year are only 000 doses. But what should the remaining 300 be counted on?

            I heard that the state will not vaccinate fighters against the regime. Let the American be vaccinated, from sponsors.
            Well, as you know, millions, so they brought in for normal people.

            In general, stop lying. Graft yourself in the northwest wherever you want, in any city.
          2. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 5 February 2021 14: 41
            +3
            Quote: the most important
            Quote: Popuas
            Where is it written that you are ready to sell? .. This is not in the article

            A little about something else, but still ..... 600 doses of vaccines against the corona virus were sent to Argentina. And this is not the only place in the world where the vaccine is sent. But in Russia, vaccination can be done freely only in Moscow. A little more than 000 doses have been delivered to our region of 2 million people. And the plans for the year are only 10 doses. But what should the remaining 000 be counted on?

            You are sure to all at once. There are still a lot of contraindications. Three months before not getting sick with anything
          3. Termit1309
            Termit1309 6 February 2021 00: 12
            +2
            Lying then why?
          4. Serg4545
            Serg4545 6 February 2021 09: 04
            +3
            Why lie then.
            I have a lot of places in Novosibirsk where they vaccinate.
        3. the most important
          the most important 4 February 2021 23: 59
          +4
          Quote: Popuas
          Where is it written that you are ready to sell? .. This is not in the article

          And who helps China build strategic stations to control ICBM launches? I wish I could read an article on this topic on VO And then there is no article ...
          1. Toucan
            Toucan 5 February 2021 01: 38
            +1
            They are building it themselves, and quite successfully. Read here. hi
            https://topwar.ru/164418-sovremennoe-sostojanie-sistemy-rannego-raketnogo-preduprezhdenija-i-protivoraketnoj-oborony-i-sredstv-kontrolja-kosmicheskogo-prostranstva-v-knr.html
      2. venik
        venik 4 February 2021 20: 24
        +6
        Quote: prior
        They themselves have not received a single new engine, but they are already ready to sell it to China in hundreds.

        ========
        Actually, WHO told you that we are already ready to sell them in "hundreds" ??? belay
        Source - "to the studio"!
      3. figwam
        figwam 4 February 2021 20: 27
        +9
        Su-35 China bought only 24 pieces.
        1. Dodikson
          Dodikson 5 February 2021 04: 51
          +3
          Well, yes, they threw them well, they thought that they would look at the engine and immediately become engine building gurus, did they buy it? things are still there.
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 5 February 2021 04: 58
            +2
            The Ukrainians threw the Chinese from Motor Sich ... They made enemies on their own heads.
            1. Dodikson
              Dodikson 5 February 2021 04: 58
              +1
              there are helicopter engines, the Chinese have analogues.
              but for fighters they have problems
      4. Piramidon
        Piramidon 4 February 2021 22: 38
        -1
        Quote: prior
        and already ready to sell to China in hundreds.

        Who is ready? Inferences from the lantern? This is how fakes are born.
    4. evgen1221
      evgen1221 4 February 2021 18: 57
      0
      It is not necessary to sell at all. Or in 3-5 years they will have their own engines with right alloy and normal traction. Although in the light of recent trends, I have no doubt that they will sell without the letter. Here are just 100 pieces, the Chinese may not take already.
      1. Rubi0
        Rubi0 4 February 2021 21: 15
        +2
        The Russian Federation buys Canadian and French engines for a heap of equipment for about 10 years, for the same Ansat, dry, 300 ms and even as it did not help much to establish its production.
        1. d1975
          d1975 4 February 2021 21: 52
          0
          You are comparing ll, which is not in nature. All this was not copied in Russia. And our path is very different, thank God we did not take this path.
          1. dauria
            dauria 4 February 2021 23: 55
            +8
            thank God we did not take this path.


            But in vain. Under Stalin, they did not hesitate to copy. Moreover, they were sent to buy everything that was possible before the war. Licenses, samples, it's easy to see the assembly technology with your eyes. Through left-wing firms, fly-by-night from other countries, if it didn't work out otherwise.
            Polikarpov dreamed of a German double-row BMW 801 star in front of Kurt Tank in FW. 190. 20 years later, the German Kurt Tank dreamed of a Soviet Tumansky engine for his Indian Marut.
            The Chinese are just following the Stalinist road. And they will get there.
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 5 February 2021 01: 02
              +3
              Quote: dauria
              The Chinese are just following the Stalinist road. And they will get there.

              There is a difference, and it is in the approach to education. And even not so much in this as in culture and philosophy of life. In European culture (to which, whatever one may say, Russia belongs), the emphasis is on understanding the essence of things, and in Chinese, on memorization. In Europe, you need a golden head to study, and in China, a cast-iron ass. That is why the Chinese, as well as the Japanese and other Asians, have invented practically nothing themselves, although the Japanese have radically improved a lot in the process of copying. The only significant Chinese invention in history is paper, and that technology was spied on from wasps. So the Chinese themselves are unlikely to bring to mind the technology of turbine blades, they cannot invent, and reverse engineering does not work well with this.
              1. Dodikson
                Dodikson 5 February 2021 05: 01
                -2
                and I have been writing for a long time that in fact everything in the world was invented by white people. black only enjoy. Asians can improve on a finished invention, but they themselves do not invent anything.
                1. Revolver
                  Revolver 5 February 2021 08: 33
                  -3
                  Quote: Dodikson
                  black only enjoy

                  And you are politically incorrect racist. Calling African Americans black, and even less black, is contrary to current attitudes from the Democratic Party and personally dear comrade Mr Bidet ... on.
                  wassat
                  1. Dodikson
                    Dodikson 5 February 2021 13: 11
                    -2
                    the Arabs can be attributed to blacks, they also did not invent a damn and did not come up with anything. and all Arab science in the Middle Ages was made captive by the Persians.
                    1. malyvalv
                      malyvalv 5 February 2021 23: 09
                      0
                      In fact, a typical example of the manipulation of people's minds in order to emphasize the superiority of Europeans. You open the list of discoveries in the English Wiki and there it is as if no one invented anything at all except Europeans. Well, other than the obvious gunpowder, paper and compass. Not a word about the first blast furnaces and drilling and a lot of everything else from the Chinese. There is nothing to say about the Arabs. The Persians are prisoners there or not, but the Arab Caliphate moved science forward very strongly. Actually, they only had it there until the Mongols buried them. Europeans stupidly copied everything that the Arabs had in the 14-17 centuries. But talking about it is noncomilfo. What if someone doubts the greatness of the Europeans.
                      1. Revolver
                        Revolver 5 February 2021 23: 28
                        +1
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Well, other than the obvious gunpowder, paper and compass.

                        The compass was invented by the Vikings.
                        Gunpowder was invented by Berthold Schwartz.
                        Paper - yes, Chinese. Some, if you believe the legend, a court eunuch looked closely at how wasps build nests and thought of artificially replicating a natural process. Although it is not very clear why the paper is in the imperial harem.
                      2. malyvalv
                        malyvalv 6 February 2021 13: 36
                        0
                        Everything is well known about the Chinese for a long time. I'm not even going to argue. The Arabs (including the conquered peoples in the form of the Persians and Armenians) created algebra, medicine, universities, astronomy, chemistry, and metallurgy. Even before the 14th century. The Europeans burned Jordan Bruno in 1600, and in 1794 they dispersed the Sorbonne as a center of theology. The European version of the history of science is sheer manipulation.
                      3. Dodikson
                        Dodikson 6 February 2021 14: 49
                        0
                        once again - Arab science was not created by the Arabs.
                        otherwise, the Chinese invented mobile phones, because they are produced by them.
                        Arabs stupidly took destroyed Persian science, took prisoners and passed it off as their own. and the Arabs themselves did .... but they did nothing.
                      4. malyvalv
                        malyvalv 7 February 2021 01: 19
                        -1
                        In the Cordoba Caliphate, were the Persians also engaged in science? Oh well.
                        Your answer just shows that you are far from the topic.
                        There, science has developed over the centuries. It is impossible to move science forward with the brains of prisoners for centuries. You can take it there and lock it in a sharashka for several years, but for a long period of time, the inventions will quickly end. Science requires a certain amount of freedom. It is clear that not only ethnic Arabs were involved in science in the Caliphate. There were different ethnic groups and there were quite a few Arabs among them. So to understand and in Russia, too, inventions are not only ethnic Russians belong.
                        There is not enough space to present you with a complete list of inventions of the Arabs in the 8-14 centuries. Moreover, I have it in English, which you probably do not speak. And science ended there for a simple reason. First, because of the defeat by the Mongols in the 13th century and then their conquest by the Turks in the 14-15th century for as much as 400 years. And in the 15th century, on the basis of Arabic science, science began its growth in Europe little by little, reaching impressive results in the 20th and 21st centuries.
                      5. Dodikson
                        Dodikson 7 February 2021 14: 48
                        -2
                        and what did they come up with in the Cordoba Caliphate?
                        what centuries of Arab science are you writing about? about the echoes of the use of Persian science?
                        Universities have opened in Europe, and they still work, we all see how European science has changed, we see how universities in Asia have changed, although they essentially have nothing to boast of. and where did Arab science go? Mongols? Why, they were on the Arabian Peninsula? they actually still destroyed Iran and the territory of Iraq and Syria, yes, Iraq and Sirea are also Arabs, but these are not Arabs who conquered Iran and a bunch of other countries. By the way, do you know that the Mongols reached France, and why did they not destroy science in Europe? maybe the crusaders destroyed? Duc crusaders is Palestine, the Arabian Peninsula did not touch either they or others. centuries later, the Turks visited it. and .... they didn't find anything there and they didn't destroy anything, so where are the Arab universities?
                        and where are the Arab planes? cars? ships? where are their missiles?
                        what did they make more difficult than baklava? I am aware of how equipment for the production of technology is transported to the UAE and other countries, I am aware of how Arabs study at the best universities in the world, and not their own. but they can't do a damn thing. Moreover, at the assembly of the same Hashim, women collect grenade launchers, and the Arabs themselves only press the On and Off buttons on the conveyor. By the way, the conveyor is not theirs, and they did not design Hashim. there is also a topic with Arab UAVs and BM.
                        the assembly of Ford cars and Samsung TVs on the territory of the Russian Federation makes them more Russian cars and TVs due to the fact that part of the small kit is produced in the Russian Federation, and the Arabs do not produce anything from the Arabs themselves that they collect white on their territory.
                        Turks are trying to move, I follow their technique. and what do I see? Yes, it's still the same topic - to buy a line from others and pass it off as your own. the Altai tank is a Korean black panther, with a deteriorated black panther, their self-propelled gun Firtina, this is again the Korean Thunder, their helicopter is a European mongoose, their missiles are clones of a harpoon and stinger, and so on. there are even radio stations and ACS from aselsan it is an assembly of western models under its own shilshik.
                        but the Turks are at least trying to collect it themselves.
                        and the Arabs .......
                        '' The founder of Dubai, #Sheikh_Rashid, was asked about the future of his country and he replied:
                        "My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drove a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, and my grandson drives a Land Rover, but my great-grandson will ride a camel ..."

                        when the world will give up oil. then partly the Arabs will live off tourism.
                        but when (not soon) the water level rises, they will not even have this essence.
                        and then, in the fourth millennium, other countries will fly to other star systems, invent perpetual motion machines on the ether, improve new quantum computing and invent the matrix, and the Arabs will continue to ride camels.
                      6. malyvalv
                        malyvalv 7 February 2021 16: 39
                        0
                        "Why didn't they destroy science in Europe?"
                        And there was something to destroy?

                        Okay, I'll try to post a list of inventions in the Arab Caliphate since at least the 11th century. And so a long list. I see no reason to argue further.

                        11th century
                        c. 1000: Pendulum: Ibn Yunus in Egypt
                        c. 1000: Injection syringe: Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili of Iraq
                        c. 1000: Hypodermic needle: Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili
                        c. 1000: Cataract extraction: Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili
                        c. 1000: Suction: Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili
                        1000: Ligature: Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis) in Al-Andalus
                        1000: Adhesive plaster: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Curette: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Retractor: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Lithotomy scalpel: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Surgical catgut: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Surgical hook: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Surgical rod: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Surgical spoon: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Inhalational anaesthetic: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Anaesthetic sponge: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Oral anesthesia: Abu al-Qasim
                        1000: Cotton dressing: Abu al-Qasim
                        c. 1000-1009: Monumental astrolabe: Ibn Yunus
                        c. 1000-1020: Heliocentric astrolabe: Al-Sijzi [
                        c. 1000-1037: Thermometer: Avicenna (Ibn Sina) in Persia
                        c. 1000-1037: Essential oil: Avicenna
                        c. 1000-1048: Orthographical astrolabe: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī in Persia
                        c. 1000-1048: Planisphere: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Star chart: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Laboratory flask: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Pycnometer: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Conical measure: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Geared mechanical lunisolar calendar analog computer: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        c. 1000-1048: Fixed-wired knowledge processing machine: Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
                        1020: Mechanical astrolabe: Ibn Samh in Al-Andalus
                        1021: Magnifying glass: Ibn al-Haytham
                        1021: Curved mirror: Ibn al-Haytham
                        1021: Pinhole camera: Ibn al-Haytham
                        1021: Camera obscura: Ibn al-Haytham
                        1025: Cancer therapy: Avicenna
                        1025: Hirudotherapy: Avicenna
                        1025: Medicinal leech: Avicenna
                        1025: Calcium channel blocker: Avicenna
                        1025: Pharmacopoeia: Avicenna
                        1028-1087: Equatorium: Abū Ishāq Ibrāhīm al-Zarqālī (Arzachel) in Al-Andalus
                        1028-1087: Universal astrolabe: Abū Ishāq Ibrāhīm al-Zarqālī
                        1031-1095: Raised-relief map: Shen Kuo
                        1038-1075: Flywheel: Ibn Bassal in Al-Andalus
                        1041: Movable type printing press: Bi Sheng in China
                        1044: Hand grenade: Zhen Tian Lei in China
                        1087: Almanac: Abū Ishāq Ibrāhīm al-Zarqālī
                        1088: Mechanical clock: Su Song
                        1088: Clock tower: Su Song
                        1088: Magnetic compass: Shen Kuo in China
                        1090: Belt drive: Qin Guan in in China
                        1090: Chain drive in China
                        1092: Astronomical clock: Su Song
                        1094: Printed star chart: Su Song
                        Coke fuel in China
                        Complex gearing: Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi in Al-Andalu
                        Epicyclic gearing: Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi in Al-Andalus
                        Segmental gearing: Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi in Al-Andalus
                        Geared mechanical clock: Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi in Al-Andalus
                        Weight-driven mechanical clock: Arabic engineers
                        Celestial globe: Arabic astronomers
                        Clear glass mirror in Al-Andalus
                        Cobwork in the Maghreb and Al-Andalus
                        12th century
                        c. 1100: Framed bead abacus in China
                        1100-1150: Torquetum: Jabir ibn Aflah (Geber)
                        1100-1161: Tracheotomy: Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) in Al-Andalus
                        1119: Watertight hull compartment: Zhu Yu in China
                        1121: Steelyard: Al-Khazini in Persia
                        1121: Hydrostatic balance: Al-Khazini
                        1126: Fire arrow: Li Gang in China
                        1126: Rocket: Li Gang in China
                        1128: Cannon in China
                        1135-1200: Linear astrolabe: Sharaf al-Din al-Tūsī in Persia
                        1150: Homing pigeons in Iraq and Syria
                        1154: Striking clock: Al-Kaysarani in Syria
                        1187: Counterweight trebuchet: Mardi bin Ali al-Tarsusi
                        1187: Mangonel: Mardi bin Ali al-Tarsusi
                        1190: Mariner's compass in Italy
                        Astrolabic quadrant in Egypt
                        Ventilator in Egypt
                        Bridge mill in Al-Andalus
                        Hydropowered forge in Al-Andalus
                        Finery forge in Al-Andalus
                        Central heating through underfloor pipes in Syria
                        Fireworks in China
                        Sunglasses in China
                        13th century
                        c. 1200: Glass mirror in Europe
                        1206: Bolted joint lock
                        1206: Clock automaton: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Flow control regulator: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Closed-loop system: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Elephant clock: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Hand washing device: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Kitchen appliance: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Camshaft: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Segmental gear: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Suction pipe: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Suction piston pump: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Reciprocating piston motion: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Double-acting engine: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Humanoid robot: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Programmable robot: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Programmable analog computer: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Automatic gate: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Pointer: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Hydro-powered water supply system: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Geared water supply system: Al-Jazari [
                        1206: Laminate: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Mechanical template: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Paper model: Al-Jazar
                        1206: Calibration: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Sand casting: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Emery powder: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Crankshaft-driven chain pump: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Hydro-powered saqiya chain pump: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Intermittent working: Al-Jazari
                        1206: Hour hand: Al-Jazari
                        1232: Rocket launcher in China
                        1235: Geared astrolabe with analog computer calendar: Abi Bakr of Isfahan
                        1259: Research institute: Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī
                        1259: Observatory institution: Nasīr al-Din al-Tūsī
                        1260: Hand cannon in Egypt
                        1260: Explosive gunpowder in Egypt
                        1260: Explosive cannon in Egypt
                        1260: Handgun in Egypt
                        1260: Portable firearm in Egypt
                        1260: Cartridge in Egypt
                        1260: Dissolve talc in Egypt
                        1260: Fire protection in Egypt
                        1260: Fireproof clothing in Egypt
                        1270: Pure saltpetre: Hasan al-Rammah of Syria
                        1274: Siege cannon: Abu Yaqub Yusuf
                        1275: Torpedo: Hasan al-Rammah of Syria
                        1275: Restaurant menu in China
                        1277: Land mine: Lou Qianxia in China
                        c. 1296: Astronomical compass: Yemeni sultan al-Ashraf
                        1297-1298: Wooden movable type printing: Wang Zhen of China
                        Crankshaft-driven screw: Arabic engineers
                        Crankshaft-driven screwpump: Arabic engineers
                        Sandpaper in China
                        Solid-fuel rocket in China
                        Condom in Italy
                        Buttonhole in Germany
                        14th century
                        1304-1375: Astrolabic clock: Ibn al-Shatir
                        1304-1375: Compendium instrument: Ibn al-Shatir
                        1304-1375: Compass dial: Ibn al-Shatir
                        1350: Rope bridge in Peru
                        1355: Bombard: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Booster: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Matchlock: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Multistage rocket: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Naval mine: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Round shot: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Shell: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1355: Wheellock: Jiao Yu and Liu Ji
                        1371: Polar-axis sundial: Ibn al-Shatir
                        32-point compass rose in the Arab world
                        Musket in China
                        Spherical astrolabe in the Middle East
                        15th century
                        1400-1429: Plate of conjunctions: Jamshīd al-Kāshī
                        1400-1429: Planetary analog computer: Jamshīd al-Kāshī
                      7. Dodikson
                        Dodikson 7 February 2021 16: 52
                        -2
                        we are unlikely to come to a consensus, because you believe in your list, but I have already seen that there are several incorrect statements (I did not look at the whole list, I just caught my eye on some words and after reading them I realized that, to put it mildly, they were lying, well and the fact that maybe I misunderstood, because my English is purely technical), at least about the Chinese gun, about anesthetics (here it is possible just what I did not understand, because if this is what I think it is just described what used before this for centuries), well, about Avicena who was not a damn Arab. however, as it seems to me, the rest of the names on your list.
                      8. malyvalv
                        malyvalv 7 February 2021 21: 43
                        0
                        There are Persians and Arabs and Egyptians and Uzbeks and Moors. And I didn't write the list.
                        But in the official history in the English wiki, there is no word about it all. And in general, in the history of inventions by Europeans, it is shown in every possible way that the Arabs (and with them the Persians and Egyptians and other Moors) in general were always backward and ignorant. And this is far from the case. They were just the first who invented the very concept of science and universities. Until the 15th-16th centuries Europe was dark and scientifically backward. But the Europeans don't want to admit it.
                        Likewise, no one there knows about Yablochkov, Lodygin, Zvorykin, Cherepanovs, Lomonosov. Some have heard of Mendeleev, but they call the table quite differently than we do. The goal is to present Russian civilization as backward and ignorant despite even the first satellite and man in space.
                        Actually, I just wanted to show it.
                      9. Dodikson
                        Dodikson 9 February 2021 08: 14
                        -1
                        I agree about Russian, and if you take German brekteats and read the words on them, then there is the most frequent inscription "God Ra". and the rest are essentially Russian.
                        and the fact that the Slavs are purposefully omitted in historical and scientific terms, I have been aware for a long time, therefore Lomonosov and broke the noses of the Germans.
  • max68
    max68 5 February 2021 18: 26
    +1
    During the interwar period, there were many articles in Western magazines that Japanese aircraft were copies of obsolete Western aircraft, and Japanese pilots were not capable of fighting using aerobatics. They, they say, are not able to withstand overload. OU and the fleet they suck, cardboard tanks, etc. And they were very surprised when these backward Asians easily smashed them on the Zero fighter, completely developed in Japan, when their ships were drowned by oxygen torpedoes "long spear", the creation of which in the West was considered impossible when they learned that Japanese, oh, horror, there are well-coordinated aircraft carrier groups capable of collecting groups of dive bombers, bombers and fighters in an hour. And what the great white people had to learn for almost a year to copy at least.
    And yes, these Asians are not capable of anything, Europeans are inventing everything.
    1. Dodikson
      Dodikson 6 February 2021 14: 51
      -2
      and what did the Japanese invent? airplane ? internal combustion engine? machine guns and cannons?
      they took other people's inventions, and made the same.
      no one says that they cannot do anything at all, they just can do, they cannot invent.
      but they can improve other people's inventions perfectly. and not only them, all Asians are glorious for this.
  • Eroma
    Eroma 5 February 2021 22: 36
    0
    The Chinese invented not only paper, but also gunpowder, a compass, porcelain and so on .... The Arabs invented cleverness in mathematics, and in general, Europeans learned hygiene from the Arabs in the Crusades! The university was created on the basis of the training system in the Cordoba Caliphate (in Spain it was).
    It's better not to remember about modern Japan at all, they can also play the 5th generation fighter, only they do not see the benefits, and most importantly, PAPA does not allow them lol
    Do not belittle the importance and capabilities of other peoples! China has mastered 5G communication wassat while they are not very capable in many areas, but with their perseverance and diligence, in twenty years, they may well be able to and surpass belay
    I would not speed up this process and hold Product 30 until we ourselves acquire the Hyper-Spatial Engine wink
  • Kart
    Kart 5 February 2021 12: 30
    0
    Quote: dauria
    The Chinese are just following the Stalinist road. And they will get there.

    Where will they go? Before Gorbachev and perestroika?
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 5 February 2021 14: 45
    0
    Quote: Rubi0
    The Russian Federation buys Canadian and French engines for a heap of equipment for about 10 years, for the same Ansat, dry, 300 ms and even as it did not help much to establish its production.

    Are you aware that the development of an engine takes more than one year? We do not have so many factories to make the whole range
  • Revolver
    Revolver 4 February 2021 20: 36
    +8
    Selling anything to the Chinese that can give them advanced military technology is selling Russia. At least partially. Chinese school textbooks constantly emphasize that the Russian tsars, taking advantage of the temporary weakness of the Celestial Empire, seized from it the primordially Chinese lands (the Far East and roughly half of Siberia). The Chinese sincerely believe that "justice" must be, and will sooner or later be restored. This card is a rough-and-ready cut and shows the most modest Chinese claims.
    1. the most important
      the most important 4 February 2021 23: 53
      +2
      The map is not entirely correct, the requests are too modest. Kazakhstan and all of Central Asia up to the Caspian Sea is at least due to the "uninhabited" population and fertile soils. And locals are either in the remnants of Russia or assimilation. And much more will be torn away from Russia, at least to the Urals, as it is not regrettable, but with an underdeveloped economy, a dismembered country, population decline, lack of unity in a country in which 200 billionaires and 50 million poor in a decade will have nothing to oppose to China.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 5 February 2021 00: 37
        +3
        Quote: the most important
        The map is not entirely correct, the requests are too modest

        If you google "Chinese territories in Russia" they show a lot of different maps. The one above is the most modest, and there are those where China is to the Urals.
        Quote: the most important
        in ten years there will be nothing to oppose to China.

        And there is and will be something to oppose. Strategic Missile Forces. There is nothing else even today, well, except perhaps an SLBM.

        And there was also such an anecdote in the USSR, I have already forgotten it, but I remember the last phrase:
        TIMES writes: "Everything is calm on the Finnish-Chinese border so far."
        1. Dodikson
          Dodikson 5 February 2021 04: 53
          -3
          yes, Americans have a violent fantasy. on behalf of the Chinese, they will draw many more cards if only Vanka crumpled up after looking at these cards and thought that the Chinese really want to get there.
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 5 February 2021 13: 35
          +2
          China doesn’t need our permafrost with the gnat - almost all the Chinese live on the coast of the South China Sea and none of them will move to the north, so your cards are jaundiced stories that have nothing in common with reality.
    2. evgen1221
      evgen1221 5 February 2021 07: 19
      0
      I'm in photoshop of such maps (I can draw as many claims of the Russian Federation to all the lands of the world as I want, the days when people believed in such garbage.
  • silver_roman
    silver_roman 4 February 2021 23: 35
    +5
    su 35 left in a batch of 24 boards, I doubt that the Chinese will buy more su 57.
    Most of all, the funny thing is that no one is hiding their true intentions.
    On the other hand, the Chinese are still up to al 41f1 as before the moon with cancer, which cost 35 su. So it's one thing to buy, another thing to copy.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 4 February 2021 18: 23
    +7
    In vain China ignores Al41 ...... it can breathe new life into J10, 11, 20. What is the problem with concluding a contract for a turbojet engine? There are examples with D30, Al31 ..... there were no jambs from the Russian Federation.
    1. Dodikson
      Dodikson 5 February 2021 04: 55
      -2
      they had already taken what they could from the AL-41, and stumbled on the alloys.
      and the fact that these engines are implemented will help to get around this problem using Chinese alloys.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 4 February 2021 18: 31
    +19
    I wrote that the Chinese have serious problems with engines, and these are TECHNOLOGICAL problems. They can copy the engine thoroughly, down to a micron ... without the technology of blades and their heat-resistant coatings, especially the "thermal barrier" - this is useless ... and therefore you can safely sell them engines even separately ... from airplanes.
    And they have not been allowed to enter engine-building plants for a long time.
    1. nikolas 83
      nikolas 83 4 February 2021 18: 43
      +12
      They try to take technology through employees of factories. By bribery.
      1. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 4 February 2021 22: 34
        +2
        Quote: nikolas 83
        They try to take technology through employees of factories.

        And the employees of the plant will take the MAP-2M vacuum installation through the checkpoint ... it will contain three tons.
        And this is just one of the line ... It's not even clear who to buy ...
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 5 February 2021 07: 07
          0
          Serdyukov .... he will bargain and take time
          1. Mountain shooter
            Mountain shooter 5 February 2021 07: 39
            +1
            Quote: Zaurbek
            Serdyukov .... he will bargain and take time

            Serdyukov does not deal with engines. Fortunately.
        2. Kart
          Kart 5 February 2021 12: 32
          0
          Quote: Mountain Shooter
          And this is just one of the line ... It's not even clear who to buy ...

          Lesha Anal.
          As soon as he comes to power, he will immediately sell everything to which his hands can reach.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 4 February 2021 18: 31
    +17
    But the engines of the second stage should be classified. Well, you can't give everything to everyone.
  • mark1
    mark1 4 February 2021 18: 35
    +7
    All they want is small parties and without obligations. What prevented you from entering the joint program like the Indians (and not fleeing)? Everyone would benefit from this ... but no - give a freebie (practically) ...
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 4 February 2021 18: 59
      +14
      We don't need joint programs with the Chinese. Unlike the Indians, they will be included in the program, they will learn all the technologies and know-how, and then they will come out and produce them as their own.
      Here is an example of such a joint program - the new wide-body long-range aircraft CR929
      It is not for nothing that the Americans demanded to throw out Chinese investors from the Ukrainian Motor Sich.
      1. Rostislav Prokopenko
        Rostislav Prokopenko 4 February 2021 19: 13
        +3
        But the CR929 engine did not pass either European or American certification, unlike our PD-14 and, in the future, PD-31. There is something in the engines that even the Chinese cannot copy. This is not my topic at all, so don't kick too hard.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 4 February 2021 19: 31
          +9
          Quote: Rostislav Prokopenko
          But the CR929 engine did not pass either European or American certification, unlike our PD-14 and, in the future, PD-31. There is something in the engines that even the Chinese cannot copy. This is not my topic at all, so don't kick too hard.

          Did PD-14 pass?
        2. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 4 February 2021 20: 57
          -1
          The USSR could copy American calculators and computers in the 80s still ..... then that's it.
          1. Dodikson
            Dodikson 5 February 2021 05: 07
            -2
            because in the 90s there was essentially no country.
  • tsvetkov1274
    tsvetkov1274 4 February 2021 18: 51
    +3
    Let them turn to Igor Negoda ...
  • Cympak
    Cympak 4 February 2021 18: 52
    +8
    Thus, the WS-15's thrust loss issues are forcing China to pay special attention to the second stage engines for Russian fighters.

    Those. once again try to steal technology
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 February 2021 18: 59
      +3
      There is already an option such that it looks similar, but the functionality is not. So China would have had civilian turbojet engines for a long time. They have the largest Boeing pairs. Did you disassemble or what?
  • poquello
    poquello 4 February 2021 19: 06
    +1
    there is a possibility that the PRC will nevertheless decide in the end to order a limited batch of Su-57 with the engines developed under the Product 30 program.

    while they wait, the Indians will climb
  • Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 4 February 2021 19: 09
    +6
    It is necessary to establish a maratorium on the sale of this engine for ten years. So that there is no temptation.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 20: 30
      +3
      Selling it to the Chinese will in no way help establish the technologically correct production of engines themselves.
      1. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 5 February 2021 08: 49
        0
        Some decisions can be licked off. This engine has a variable bypass ratio. In the USA, a similar engine for Ф35 is also only in development. Those they will definitely not sell their offspring and we do not need it.
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 4 February 2021 19: 16
    0
    For China, the technology used by Russian engine builders is clearly important, and therefore there is a possibility that the PRC will eventually decide to order a limited batch of Su-57 with engines developed under the Product 30 program.
    Yes, gentlemen, Chinese, don't spit in the well, you'll have to get drunk. fool
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 4 February 2021 19: 19
    +8
    Hmm ... And these. how are they there? Sokhu are different ... Could they tell us again how their fighter ... Without propulsion ... Has it changed the entire balance of the armed forces around the world several times? winked
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 4 February 2021 19: 34
      -1
      Fifth generation fighters for the PLA: why China does not consider the Su-57
      December 10, 2019
  • geoan
    geoan 4 February 2021 19: 33
    +3
    "This is how Chinese engine-building technologies are forged ..." wassat
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 20: 33
      +6
      This is how everything is forged - purely Chinese.
  • yfast
    yfast 4 February 2021 19: 34
    +5
    Let them fly on their own.
  • Xenofont
    Xenofont 4 February 2021 19: 40
    +1
    The moment of truth will come in the next 5 years. It will be very significant if our rulers transfer to the Chinese either a license or the technology for producing a product, no matter for what money. Only Amerzians and their closest satellites can perform such actions. China is an absolutely unpredictable partner in terms of security.
    1. BastaKarapuzik And
      BastaKarapuzik And 4 February 2021 21: 55
      +2
      I think they will definitely not sell production technologies, and the finished products, if they are still put on sale, will have the letter "E", as usual.
    2. rjpthju
      rjpthju 5 February 2021 05: 08
      0
      Here the Americans and their satellites sometimes prevent the transfer of technologies and advanced weapons to China. And ours are happy to try. Sell ​​products knowing that they will be disassembled and copied. At first, worse than the original. And then they will surpass him. This has already happened many times. And they didn't care about our protests. And our only need loot, then they will remember about national security, learning Chinese.
      1. BastaKarapuzik And
        BastaKarapuzik And 7 February 2021 01: 08
        +1
        Americans sell their weapons all over the world. But to China, they just don't want to help in the field of arms, and not because they are afraid of the leakage of critical technologies. After all, no one bothers to make an export version.
        Our "loot" is necessary for the development of new weapons systems, as happened with the "Pantsir", which first aroused the interest of buyers abroad, and only then the Russian Ministry of Defense became interested in it.
        With the money from its sale abroad, the system was put on stream.
        We must admit that there may not be enough money for all the Wishlist and we have to think about what types of weapons, in exprot execution, of course, one can afford to trade.
        I think about safety, they know very well, such decisions are not made out of the blue.
        These are very balanced decisions.
  • cniza
    cniza 4 February 2021 19: 45
    +3
    Chinese military experts point out that just such an option for importing the Su-57 would be acceptable.


    It is not harmful to want, but will they sell ...
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 4 February 2021 20: 15
    -2
    Bullshit so far.
    The engine is promised by the year 23. Until they do, until they pull, until they equip ...
    IMHO, by the year 25 the Chinese will somehow cope themselves ...
    1. Orange bigg
      Orange bigg 4 February 2021 20: 28
      +6
      Product-30 is promised to be finished by 2023 (by the end of 2022). So the engine has already been created and has been tested for several years. Next year, the first flight will be made by the Su-57 of the second stage (ROC Megapolis), the further development of the Su-57.It will fly on engines Product-30. That is, the Su-57 will be equipped with Product-30 next year.

      .Imho, by 25 the Chinese will somehow cope themselves ...

      That's exactly what somehow. About how we managed now.

      ... unresolved problem of a sharp decrease in the thrust of the WS-15 engine when the temperature of the turbine of the power plant approaches the operating parameters. When the temperature exceeds 1350 degrees Celsius, the engine loses its thrust, and initially the loss reached 25 percent, which, for obvious reasons, is unacceptable for fighters claiming high maneuverability. In the end, this is simply dangerous during the flight, because the pilot can lose control of the fighter.

      Recently, the loss of thrust when the turbine reaches the operating temperature indicator has been reduced to about 18%.
      1. Maks1995
        Maks1995 5 February 2021 16: 24
        0
        That's about what I meant. Only in terms of timing are you better settled.
        22-23 product, 24-25 first batches, and the Chinese will not get them for sure .. that is, after 25 years.

        And those are developing quickly, and by 25 they will probably improve theirs, or make a new one.
        According to the article, 25% of the 7% of the non-design loss of thrust was removed for the year, 18% remained.
        until 25 - 4 years left ...
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 4 February 2021 20: 42
      +5
      Quote: Max1995
      by the age of 25, the Chinese will somehow cope

      And what has prevented them from coping so far? recourse
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 4 February 2021 20: 55
        +4
        Al31 bought .....
      2. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 4 February 2021 21: 02
        -2
        As the saying goes, "It doesn't matter how slow you go if you don't stop." And they won't stop.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 4 February 2021 22: 20
          +4
          Quote: Eye of the Crying
          As the saying goes, "It doesn't matter how slow you go if you don't stop." And they won't stop.

          But they seem to be at a dead end with their WS-15.
  • kit88
    kit88 4 February 2021 20: 20
    +10
    Of course you can sell. But only in the "E" variant. Engines must also be in "E" version.
    And let them take it.
  • Joseph Seed
    Joseph Seed 4 February 2021 21: 26
    +2
    Good evening, it seems to me, or are the scandals with the purchase of Motor Sich in / in Ukraine indirectly related to the problem of low characteristics of alloys for gas turbine engines? Isn't it easier to just buy the documentation? Which they probably did.
    1. agoran
      agoran 4 February 2021 21: 36
      +3
      Documentation is one thing, and then there are specifications, that's another.
      It's lazy to paint everything.
  • Ruslan Sledkov
    Ruslan Sledkov 4 February 2021 21: 44
    +5
    So this WS-15 has not only problems with planting power, but also with catastrophically low fuel efficiency. Only the author does not write about it. Maybe you have already solved this problem?
  • Ruslan Sledkov
    Ruslan Sledkov 4 February 2021 21: 46
    +1
    The mistake in my previous text: not "power landing", but "power drawdown". Auto fix tortured. Who invented it?
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 4 February 2021 22: 36
    +2
    Quote: Ros 56
    But the engines of the second stage should be classified. Well, you can't give everything to everyone.

    So he's classified! You can't go to the factory there, with a phone or a tablet ...
  • hostel
    hostel 4 February 2021 22: 45
    +2
    No export !!! Everything for yourself !!!
  • Voltsky
    Voltsky 4 February 2021 23: 57
    +5
    let them ask the plow how to fix all this, there are even more specialists on all issues than here
  • tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 5 February 2021 04: 47
    +1
    Technologies cannot be copied -or buy or steal !!!
  • From Tomsk
    From Tomsk 5 February 2021 04: 50
    +3
    Who, for example, can produce jet engines with a thrust of 12-14 tons for medium-haul civil liners? These are the American company Pratt & Whitney, British Rolls-Royce, the Russian UEC and General Electric's alliance with the French corporation Safran SA. That's all you need to know about Chinese engine building)).
  • rjpthju
    rjpthju 5 February 2021 04: 59
    -1
    Why don't we sell engines from Tu-160? So selling these, we will give the technology to China. And they masterfully modernize, a product with an E index, but shortcomings in materials science are a factor of time, they will solve them, or buy (steal) the technology. We've already shared our secrets. It's just treason. You have to shoot for this. China is still friendly now, no one knows what will happen tomorrow. They have no concept of friendship between peoples, only pragmatism.
  • Carib
    Carib 5 February 2021 08: 42
    0
    Quote: hirurg
    Yes, you can't copy it. All the salt is in the shoulder blades. More precisely, in their internal structure and materials of manufacture.

    The Chinese grow up and learn too fast. A little more, and their materials scientists, metalworkers will begin to catch up and copy more successfully.
  • Kosh
    Kosh 5 February 2021 09: 44
    +2
    Some kind of nonsense has been written from the very beginning, which says that the WS-15 is planned to be used simultaneously for the J-20 and J-31. These are machines of different sizes and the WS-15 on the J-31, in principle, will not fit. Actually, our AL-20 engines were first installed on the J-31, and now a new modification of their WS-10 engines, and then it is planned to install the WS-15 as they will be done. In the case of the J-31, there are RD-93 engines on the existing prototypes, which are much smaller in size and, accordingly, if new engines are made for them, then these are not big WS-15s.
    Well, in essence, it should be noted that although there is always curiosity to see how others are doing, it is one thing to just look, and another thing to try to implement the technologies applied in one engine to a completely different engine, which is already in a state of quite high readiness. Those who write about this do not seem to understand that it is rather easier and less time-consuming to modify such an engine on their own. Well, everyone has problems and delays in creating engines.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 5 February 2021 10: 07
      +1
      This is important for them, because the production of turbojet engines lags behind the production of the Fighters themselves and interferes with weapons.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 5 February 2021 10: 13
    +2
    China continues to show problems with aircraft engines that are planned to be used on the fifth generation J-20 and J-31 fighters.
    What does the "loss" have to do with it? Have the Chinese lost something? They have natural problems with self-designed engines. Which, of course, will be resolved. He who works, does not give in to difficulties, will achieve the result. Like the Chinese who made their economy the first in the world. Through work.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 5 February 2021 13: 38
      0
      They also have problems with gas turbines for power generation, cyclotrons, reactors and all high-tech products and special equipment that they are trying to make themselves.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 6 February 2021 13: 36
        0
        If you are trying to do something that you have never done, then you always have problems. Moreover, if this is something - at the very forefront of the knowledge and skills of mankind. Most countries in the world don't try to do anything like that at all. And the Chinese are actively working on this and moving forward. So they will replace us at the forefront, since Russia is now improving its competencies in another area. AUE moving ...
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 5 February 2021 10: 18
    +2
    Quote: Rubi0
    The Russian Federation buys Canadian and French engines for a heap of equipment for about 10 years, for the same Ansat, dry, 300 ms and even as it did not help much to establish its production.

    A replacement is coming. PD-14 is already flying the MS-21.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 5 February 2021 20: 17
    0
    And they will sell it. For Xi's approval, not even dollars, these will be sold to anyone. I remember how the person personally gave the islands.
  • Berg berg
    Berg berg 5 February 2021 23: 31
    -1
    And then someone recently praised the Chinese engines for the fifth generation, but here's the whole truth from the Chinese themselves, all of the top five actually flew on Russian engines!
  • Sasha from Uralmash
    Sasha from Uralmash 6 February 2021 05: 30
    0
    First saturate your troops by 100%! And only then for export!