Military Review

"Countless number of victories of German aces" - there are doubts

220

For some time now, experts of various levels and formats have been discussing the question of how many aircraft actually belong to the Luftwaffe pilots, who are usually called aces. These, for example, are customary to include Erich Hartmann, Gunther Rall, Gerhard Barkhorn. According to the statistics that are usually given, these three Nazi pilots have won a total of over 900 aerial victories. For a person who is used to taking Western sources at their word, the numbers may seem quite reliable. But the point is that blindly trusting German sources in this regard is hardly worth it.


When it comes to the need to somehow confirm the data about the "countless number of victories of the German air aces", they usually refer to the documents of the Third Reich. These documents say that the pilots initially recorded the conduct of air battles, and this was done with the help of so-called photo machine guns. Among these were, for example, Zeiss BSK-16 and Zeiss ESK-2000. These are objective control devices that were installed on airplanes.

For example, with the help of such equipment, the attack of a German combat aircraft on the I-153 was documented, which was carried out literally in the first minutes of the Great Patriotic War. A recording of this attack is today in Britain, in one of the museums.

However, experts still have great doubts that the German aces have always reliably recorded their combat missions. And if they did, then the case could be limited to the provision of personnel, according to which it is impossible to say unequivocally whether an aircraft (for example, a Soviet one) was shot down or not. And since Nazi Germany needed heroes, they could engage in collective exaggeration.

An analysis of the situation is presented on the Sky Artist channel:

220 comments
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  1. novel66
    novel66 4 February 2021 15: 27
    -2
    you need to count somewhere in the number of battles. ours have one shot down for two or three air battles ... and hardly any registration
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 4 February 2021 15: 34
      +2
      Quote: novel xnumx
      and hardly a postscript

      So, it seems, for the knocked down premium was relied on .. And where there is finance, control increases many times.
      1. Vladimir Mashkov
        Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 16: 35
        0
        The video was disappointing. No, about the photo-machine guns told wonderful. good But there is almost nothing about the lies of the aces ... If anyone is interested in this topic - see the article about it on my page. smile
        1. svp67
          svp67 5 February 2021 06: 29
          +3
          Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
          But there is almost nothing about the lies of the aces ...

          Well, "lies" are still in quotation marks. Could the pilot be 100% sure that he shot down the plane? What was recorded by the cine gun? Only hits, but whether they were sufficient to destroy the aircraft, he did not always show. The pilot brought this Yak to the airfield, but where is the confidence that he was not counted as downed?

          In general, I was struck by another fact from the recollection of a German "expert" who had about three hundred shot downs on his account. It was amazing that he was shot down 18 times. Once again, EIGHTEEN times he was shot down ... But he is alive, has not lost confidence in himself and continued to fight.
          This is an interesting characteristic of both German technology and the pilot training system.
          1. novel66
            novel66 5 February 2021 07: 14
            -1
            it's Hartman! even captured, but escaped
            1. svp67
              svp67 5 February 2021 07: 18
              +1
              Quote: novel xnumx
              it's Hartman!

              There is no other, but the very fact of being shot down EIGHTEEN times ...
              1. novel66
                novel66 5 February 2021 07: 22
                0
                ours were no worse, I read about long-range aviation almost every second flight returned on foot ... a new plane and into the sky
            2. Sergey M. Karasev
              Sergey M. Karasev 9 February 2021 07: 07
              0
              Quote: novel xnumx
              it's Hartman! even captured, but escaped

              No, this is Rudel. He also buried four or more of his gunners.
          2. Vladimir Mashkov
            Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 14: 01
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            Well, "lies" are still in quotation marks.

            No, Sergey, lies German experts are still without quotation marks (approximately 2-2,5 times more are drawn for sorties, and for "battles" and for "shot down"). I even published an article about this here on VO. Check it out and read all 470 interesting comments.

            It goes without saying that any pilot was not and cannot be 100% sure of shooting down an enemy aircraft in all cases. For accurate determining this, the Soviet pilots had a strict system of confirmation (whatever some might deny). The German system (in short) consisted in the phrase: "Trust me, gentlemen!" - and allowed some "superheroes" to "draw" anything. lol

            No. 18 Baer, ​​No. 8 Doopman was shot down 34 times - 19 times. And super-duper Rudel got off 32 times. What do you mean "downed"? This means that the plane was so damaged by the "bastard inept carriages" lol that did not reach the home airfield, landed on an emergency or fell. By the way, the "brave" experts dropped the planes and jumped out with a parachute rather willingly. And yes! - this interesting characterizes both German technology, and the training system for pilots, and the pilots themselves. lol

            About this and something else in the article "Aces" of the Third Reich. The phenomenon of huge personal accounts. "Although it would be more accurate to call it:" Aces "of the Third Reich." The phenomenon of "memorable huge accounts."
            1. Zug
              Zug 7 February 2021 09: 57
              -2
              There were credits on one side and on the other. And they jumped out because they were given a clear order for this. We will do the technique, but to prepare the pilot (with a flight time of under 400 hours) and a couple of three years is somehow a little harder. The plane is faster and easier to build. In our case, the pilot pulls the plane to the last.
              After "UTI-4" we were shown a faster landing, and then we were immediately put into the combat aircraft "La-5", and - on our own take off. A rather short program was determined: 10 flights in a circle, then a zone, for combat use, air navigation for 2 flights, for a group rally ... At the school I have 6,5 hours on Lavochkin - and then 6,5: that I flew for 6 hours. So I got a little less than 20 hours of flight time - and I was already in a combat regiment at the front.

              But the pilot of "Messerschmitt", as experts told us, the Germans sent to the front when the pilot had 100 hours of flight time on a combat aircraft! We did 5 times less ... plus 2 firing at a cone and 2 firing at ground targets. And that's all. 2 flights to a group rally in pairs and 2 flights to a group rally as part of a flight, 2 flights en route, and the equipment on the plane - ARK (Automatic radio compass. - Ed.) Was not: only a magnetic compass and other devices ... speed, hours, time, altitude - and I’ll say frankly that this poor preparation affected me negatively!
              https://iremember.ru/memoirs/letchiki-istrebiteli/alekseev-dmitriy-alekseevich/
              And what are you going to do with a German pilot with such flying time against your 20-25 hours?
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 7 February 2021 11: 26
                0
                Quote: Zug
                And what are you going to do with a German pilot with such flying time against your 20-25 hours?

                Thanks a lot for the enlightenment! Now you have enlightened - and like a ray of the sun among the clouds! It was nice to meet an all-knowing, but writing without punctuation, a veteran of the Great Patriotic War!
                Enlighten, please, who then knocked down almost all German aviation on the Eastern Front, forever "landed" in Russian soil 2/3 of their famous aces with a huge raid, knocked out even the most super-duper aces many times (Hartman - 14 times, and Rudel - as many as 32 times), knocked down "the most productive ace of the Second World War and of all times and peoples" - Scheel?
                Are the Martians? Or, nevertheless, your more successful comrades-in-arms - "bast shoes" (as they were called by the downed super experts), with a flight time of 20-25 hours?
                I look forward to your enlightenment!
                1. Zug
                  Zug 7 February 2021 18: 28
                  -2
                  And who told you, my dear fellow, that they were all killed on the eastern front? In 1943, out of 7 squadrons that fought in Russia, the Germans brought three of them to the west. And 4 was quite enough. There I sent the words of a fighter veteran above. Well, it is clear that for you, an expert in the Second World War in the air, a veteran, and not one, you can check what they say About the same things, it doesn't mean anything to you. Answer-how did you win? We won in Finnish. We won. 128 thousand killed against 27 thousand from the Finns. Umora. That's about how we won. As on Khankhin-Gol, where are the Japanese At first, they dropped ragged chickens. Until all over the union, right at the battlefield, they began to collect all the specialists. About Hassan, I will not say anything at all. There were pilots from the line units. Well, something like this. There is an easy way to check - download the flight simulator. And show me, on any model of your exquisite choice. The essence is simple. I have the time to play and learn whirlwinds who played for our team in alliance. You are complete zero. You have no experience, I have a lot of it. Fly a day. And I assure you, I I will have you on any craft as I want as much as I want and as long as I want. Until I get tired or you you won't smash your head, because this is an experience that you don't have
                  1. Vladimir Mashkov
                    Vladimir Mashkov 7 February 2021 18: 57
                    0
                    VERY disappointed! I understood that you are an illiterate hero of computer games, killing all the time on them, expressing even thoughts poorly and with difficulty, VERY poor knowledge of history, NOT reading good books, but drawing all knowledge from crafty false historians from videos and Internet sites. Only you do not understand whether you are a Russian or a foreigner. Of course, I'm not going to play: an empty activity and a stupid waste of time.
                    Good luck to you! I wish to leave games, do BUSINESS, acquire REAL knowledge and learn think!
                    1. Zug
                      Zug 7 February 2021 19: 04
                      -1
                      And why not. Try it, so to speak, though not in the air, but clearly in general then. And this is not a game, this is a flight simulator, different things. Crafts were tested by former pilots around the world. And by the way, what false historians? I wrote to you on the case and you told me some kind of flood. Are you apparently in the archives, are you sitting? Are you digging papers? Or are you ordering documents for bucks in the USA? I'm giving a link to a historian, a specialist in Kursk, listen, get acquainted with the losses by hours, days in both phases of the arc. Everything is confirmed by the historian by showing documents. But they overwrite the link. Umora. Look at Gorbach. He is a historian with experience ... Oh, yes. ... he is a false historian. We used to wave memoirs in front of our noses as the last resort.
                      https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%87+%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F+%D0%B2+%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9+%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5
                      1. palatin64
                        palatin64 7 February 2021 23: 21
                        0
                        "... losses on BOTH PHASES of the arc ..." - that says it all - as a person writes, so he thinks. This is called plebeianism ...
                      2. Zug
                        Zug 8 February 2021 09: 17
                        -1
                        You follow the link and get familiar with it. Instead of playing as a teacher. In essence, write .. Just spoil the paper in vain, so to speak
                  2. Zug
                    Zug 7 February 2021 19: 12
                    -1
                    I, unlike you, became convinced of something. It was like this. From the public memory of Veterans, an administrator approached us with a request to transfer the ZhBD of the German infantry division. A journalist from the town of N near Moscow ordered the ZhBD (paid by the way). a monument with a museum that tells about the desperate defense of this town of the Red Army. She asked to transfer certain numbers, reports of groups and units to the operational headquarters of the division for certain numbers, because the goal was to find out the exact number of the capture of the town and how much it was defended. According to our data, long and bravely. My brother and I translate - at the end, my brother translated the entire railway from June to the end of December. And what do we see by the numbers? Voila: The town began to be taken at 8 in the morning by capturing the bridge simultaneously with cutting the railway road from the flank. At 12 noon it was all over with the capture rich trophies and even echelons with disassembled and loaded planes (they did not have time to send), gas oil and much more. There is grub, ammunition. About the "heroic" defense is not said by the report on the clock !!!! ! not a word to the Headquarters. The Russian reconnaissance group was spotted on the field near the city, mowed down with machine guns. That's the whole defense. So I have your "correct books" to one place. And yes, I know German.
                2. wolf6245
                  wolf6245 7 February 2021 19: 45
                  0
                  Judging by your statements about the Finnish war, they did not serve in the army.
                  1. Zug
                    Zug 7 February 2021 19: 53
                    -1
                    Losses to sound again? These are off-numbers. Or maybe you will correct something?
                  2. Zug
                    Zug 7 February 2021 20: 53
                    -1
                    Will you correct it or not? What are your conclusions about the Finnish company?
                3. Chack wessel
                  Chack wessel April 4 2021 02: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Zug
                  And who told you, my dear, that they were all killed on the eastern front? In 1943, out of 7 squadrons that fought in Russia, the Germans brought three of them to the west, and 4 was enough.

                  What was enough for? For unconditional surrender? ... During the Byelorussian Operation, Soviet Aviation brought the artillery positions of the Germans to the edren fen, and bombed the German troops to hell on the march.
                  1. Zug
                    Zug April 4 2021 14: 47
                    0
                    And what did you not bomb out in 41,42,43? Directly on marches to Moscow, the Caucasus, Stalingrad, Kursk? Kharkov? "Magic Order" in the Baltic in 1943, for May, June and July "Dropped" 4 assault aircraft to the bottom of the "Seeigel 61". Including 52 IL2, PE2, IL4. Only 61 cars!. Only IL 2 "fell" completely 2 regiments in
                    water. Lost-3 small boats sunk, 6 damaged! 61 planes paid for THREE small German ships! And as the Germans put mines, they continued to place ... Oh, 15 percent were shot down by Finnish aviation. The rest were sunk by air defense fire of this very order.
                    1. Chack wessel
                      Chack wessel April 26 2021 11: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Zug
                      And what did you not bomb out in 41,42,43? Directly on marches to Moscow, the Caucasus, Stalingrad, Kursk? Kharkov?

                      And what did the Germans do in Moscow at 41, 42, 43? :)
          3. Chack wessel
            Chack wessel April 4 2021 03: 11
            +1
            Here, again, you need to figure out what a "shot down" plane is? We often confuse the concept of "knocked down" and "lost". Soviet planes were made of rags and wood, and instead of repairing them, it was easier to remove everything of value from the plane that got into an accident, write it off, and drag it to the edge of the airfield, and get a new one instead. The German duralumin plane could be repaired. But it takes a long time to repair it, and while it is in the workshop there is no sense in it ...
            .... In general, to assess the actions of the Air Force by the number of shot down frags is the height of idiocy. For example, the Allied Air Force lost more aircraft in the raids on Germany than the German Air Force. (at least initially). Allies are fools? Avothren. It was just that the allies suffered losses from anti-aircraft guns, and each damaged plane went into irrevocable. And the crews too ... But the Allies bombed German cities up and down. And they didn't need German planes. The allies had other tasks.
        2. ZIS
          ZIS 7 February 2021 18: 59
          0
          I would like to add, where is "stasiska" (by Jim Carey) on the downed and lost cars at the Aces.
  2. Avior
    Avior 4 February 2021 15: 37
    +3
    The Germans have much more air combat
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 16: 38
      0
      Quote: Avior
      Germans have much more air battles recorded

      Yes, "recorded". They were famous science fiction writers! lol
      1. Zug
        Zug 7 February 2021 10: 00
        -1
        The Germans had more air battles, and they made 2-3 sorties a day more than ours in Kursk.
        Here are the numbers by the hour and by the day - who has how many flights and what is the result. Kursk aviation historian. There he clearly tells in a series of programs
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 4 February 2021 17: 00
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      The Germans have much more air combat

      Not catching contradictions? The opponents have a different, very different number of battles, then with whom did those with more and more battles fight, recorded battles?
      1. Vladimir Mashkov
        Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 14: 20
        -2
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Not catching contradictions? The opponents have a different, very different number of battles, then with whom did those with more and more battles fight, recorded battles?

        Dear Vladimir! German pilots indeed (for a number of reasons) fought more intensely and made more sorties. But, of course, all of their indicators lot (2-2,5 times) less than what they "drew" for themselves.
        1. Chack wessel
          Chack wessel April 4 2021 03: 18
          +1
          Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
          Dear Vladimir! German pilots indeed (for a number of reasons) fought more intensely and made more sorties. But, of course, all their indicators are much (2-2,5 times) less than what they "drew" for themselves.


          I have a lot of trouble with this. Rather, the summation is that ALL German pilots made several sorties, and not the "shock workers of production" Hartmans, Bakhorns, and other "Stakhanovites of the sky" ... I, of course, understand that pervetin opens the horizons of consciousness and expands physical capabilities, but There is not enough pervetin for everyone, and no matter how much you feed them, he will not make several flights a day, and the "backlash-chocolate" will simply die.
          ... A pilot with pre-war training, at an airfield fully equipped with equipment, with a good airfield attendants (and not sent to the airfield divisions), may make several sorties. An ordinary pilot is fucking shit. :)
          1. Vladimir Mashkov
            Vladimir Mashkov April 4 2021 11: 12
            -2
            Quote: Chack Wessel
            I have a lot of trouble with this.

            Not all of them, of course. But most of it is still yes, more. And not only pervitin is the reason. The quantitative composition and specificity of the use of German and Soviet fighter aircraft is the reason for this. In addition, the duration of the flight of German fighters is slightly shorter than Soviet ones.
      2. Filxnumx
        Filxnumx 7 February 2021 15: 17
        +1
        sorry, accidentally minus repeat
    3. nedgen
      nedgen 6 February 2021 22: 23
      +2
      And where does this information about a lot more fights come from? Is it from the archives of the Luftwaffe, which were destroyed almost 100% at the end of WWII? And if from the memoirs, then the paper endure everything. For example, ALL aces said that they had 50-100-200, etc. VICTORIES, not downed ones. In Luftava, they counted VICTORIES, not shot down ones, and planes destroyed on the ground were counted among victories. And for 4 motor downed bomber, they recorded 3 VICTORIES. For the downed twin-engine 2 VICTORIES. For a damaged engine 4, 2 victories, for a damaged 2 motor aircraft, 1 victory, etc. And in the net and in the documents of modern times, all these victories SUDDENLY became downed planes. But in the USSR, an aircraft shot down but not confirmed by ground forces was counted as KNOWN and was not included in the combat score. Planes destroyed on the ground were not counted as downed either. And then some of the pilots on the Il-2 probably had the account of the downed planes according to the German system and would have entered for 20k laughing ... For example, as the Germans believed: Hartman, for example, from his second flight book for 150-180 (I do not remember exactly victories) has a confirmation indicating the type of aircraft only one for every 30 kopecks counted, and this despite the fact that Hartman after escaping from captivity above the front line and in the rear of the red army did not fly at all because of the word AT ALL. So we could, if desired, confirm almost all aircraft. But there is NO confirmation from the ground. No, that's all. hi
  3. Avior
    Avior 4 February 2021 15: 56
    +4
    Kozhedub
    Total aerial victories: 64
    sorties - 330
    air battles - 120

    Hartman
    more than 1400 sorties, in which he conducted 825 air battles

    Downed 352

    The ratio is the same - about two air battles for one shot down
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 4 February 2021 16: 48
      0
      Quote: Avior
      The ratio is the same - about two air battles for one shot down

      but no
      It is necessary to compare flights that are homogeneous in tasks.
      Our aviation made a lot of blank sorties for cover, where even during the battle the goal was not to shoot down, but not to allow action (or not to allow a comrade to be shot down).
      Departures in ambushes and free hunting were rarely done before the age of 44.
      I think in reality Kozhedub's performance is even higher. This can be seen in the episode with 2 Americans shot down.
      1. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 19: 00
        +1
        Kozhedub was a great pilot, but he got this story about shot down blacks. There was an article on the product, where he was also credited with B17.
        If necessary, he would have shot down twenty Americans, but repeating these Internet fantasies of carbon monoxide patriots, only denigrating the pilot's name.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 19: 19
          0
          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          to repeat these Internet fantasies of carbon monoxide patriots, only to denigrate the name of the pilot.

          I read about this during the Soviet Union
          1. mr.ZinGer
            mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 19: 38
            0
            Source, imagine who is the witness of this episode, and what relation it has to Ivan Nikitich. He already has enough merit, no need to make Hartman out of him.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 20: 29
              0
              Quote: mr.ZinGer
              Source, imagine who is the witness of this episode, and how it relates to Ivan Nikitich

              laughing ?!
              read in a book, borrowed a book from the library, it was 35 years ago
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 20: 42
              0
              Quote: mr.ZinGer
              Source imagine who is the witness of this episode

              I even found what the book looked like for you
              I can throw off the fb2 file I was not too lazy on the filibust downloaded
              1. mr.ZinGer
                mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 21: 40
                0
                Thank you for not being too lazy, I found a mention of this episode in Bodrikhin's preface to the book "Fidelity to the Fatherland" of the 2014 edition, Ivan Nikitich himself writes two "fokers" shot down by him
                April 17 in the area of ​​Seelow Heights.
                Somehow, Mr. Bodrikhin has a lot of exaggerations in the description of this episode, and the analyzes of this case that I had to stumble upon are credible, but nevertheless thank you again.
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 4 February 2021 21: 25
          0
          the black man in the cockpit is a real fantasy. There were very few non-white pilots in the United States.
          from usually took only arrows for bombers or other auxiliary
          and the case with 2 mustangs is officially recognized, no inventions.
          1. mr.ZinGer
            mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 22: 03
            0
            To remove all the questions, share a link where is this official recognition or is it a rehash of Mr. Bodrikhin.
            I repeat in his presentation a lot of discrepancies.
            1. yehat2
              yehat2 4 February 2021 22: 32
              0
              the case in April (17 or 22 - confusion from various sources), when he was driving away the messengers from the b-17, came under the attack of 2 mustangs, is known from the words of Kozhedub himself. april, berlin sky. Borodikhin wrote it down. Such a story. The unit commander PF Chupikov, after viewing the photo-machine gun, ordered to destroy the film and not to disclose or take into account the shot down, however, sent a report to the command. After the command received the message, the document and the entire history were classified.
              But if you google a little, there is even a photo where both pilots who were attacked

              which one of them I did not understand, but here both
              1 of them died, the second landed on our territory
              so the story is true
              1. mr.ZinGer
                mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 23: 23
                +2
                You are not embarrassed by what La-7 was doing, at a height where fortresses fly, if he flew out for free hunting, then on the eastern front, the working height is up to 5000, etc.
                And if you disassemble the points, then there are many inconsistencies, up to the fact that there is a list of losses of the Mustangs on April 17, and in the Berlin area, no one was shot down.
                And again Bodrikhin mentions a Negro.
                But I agree, these are just words.
                Officially no one will say anything anymore.
                1. Zug
                  Zug 7 February 2021 18: 53
                  0
                  They were removed from the tongue - at such heights, all the more so in April 45, what should the lavochkin do? And then. The Americans and the navs had their own sectors - no one seemed to be poking into strangers - officially, at least
              2. illuminat
                illuminat 5 February 2021 14: 58
                +5
                Quote: yehat2
                which one of them I did not understand, but here both
                1 of them died, the second landed on our territory
                so the story is true

                In the photo from left to right: Morgan (died 2013), Woods (died 2007), Nelson (died 1984), Turner (died in 1947 plane crash), Lester (died 1986).
                Woods was shot down in October 1944 over Greece, until the end of the war in German captivity. Only the details of Morgan's service could not be found (participation in the war from 1942 to 1945). The rest did not fall to ours, and certainly no one died.
              3. Zug
                Zug 7 February 2021 18: 51
                0
                B-17s and Mustangs flew at high altitudes. It is doubtful that Kozhedub "drove away" the Germans from the B-17. This is definitely heresy. There was enough cover.
          2. Zug
            Zug 7 February 2021 18: 50
            -1
            We were flying on p-51.
      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 19: 19
        0
        Quote: yehat2
        I think in reality Kozhedub's performance is even higher. This can be seen in the episode with 2 Americans shot down.

        I think for many the performance was higher, it was necessary to confirm the shot down, and if they are behind the front line
      3. Avior
        Avior 4 February 2021 23: 19
        +2
        The American Case is an Exceptional Unique Event
        Sometimes they shot down their own
        The first shot down near Pokryshkin is our Su-2.
        Pokryshkin shot down his first plane on June 22, 1941 - unfortunately, it was a Soviet near-by Su-2 bomber that landed on the fuselage in the field. The chaos of the first day of the war saved the future ace, and he escaped with only a major catch-up.

        But this is also a unique event that does not affect statistics.
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 5 February 2021 15: 15
          0
          it was the third))) the first two Pokryshkin shot down 2 flying kites when he was learning to fly)))
          worked out the ram, as I knew)))
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 4 February 2021 16: 50
      +5
      Quote: Avior
      Hartman
      more than 1400 sorties, in which he conducted 825 air battles
      Downed 352
      According to Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, and what kind of storyteller he is is clear from this:
      In the Soviet Union, he was sentenced to 25 years of hard labor, despite which he retained a craving for freedom, expressed in the freedom-loving spirit of a northern man, and staged a riot in the colony, after which he earned himself another 50 years in prison.
      It is also written down from his words, but how can you not believe a person with such a craving! laughing
      1. Avior
        Avior 4 February 2021 23: 24
        +5
        At least the number of sorties was not written according to his words.
        For the rest, the proportions are the same as in Kozhedub, taking into account the specifics of the tactics of the Germans
        For two sorties, one air battle
        For two air battles - one shot down
        There are plus or minus differences, but they are not of a fundamental nature
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 5 February 2021 03: 17
          +1
          Quote: Avior
          At least the number of sorties was not written according to his words.

          Of course, if the headquarters staff record each flight to another airfield, fly-by of the car after repair and landing in the cockpit as a combat flight, then why shouldn't the flyer correct the German "statistics", the most truthful?
          1. Avior
            Avior 5 February 2021 10: 19
            +5
            Do you think that Hartmann flew from airfield to airfield instead of fighting? Where, then, are our downed ones? And Hartman himself, shot down 14 times?

            Anything happened in the war. And with us, too, not everything was smooth with combat missions.
            Have you read Drabkin's "I fought on the IL-2"?
            he brings a note to Stalin from Zhukov, Malenkov and Novikov
            During the last six or seven days, we have observed the action of our fighter aircraft. On the basis of numerous facts, we came to the conclusion that our fighter aircraft is performing very poorly. Our fighters, even in those cases when there are several times more of them than enemy fighters, do not engage in battle with the latter. In those cases when our fighters perform the task of covering attack aircraft, they also do not enter into battle with enemy fighters, and the latter attack attack aircraft with impunity, shoot them down, and our fighters fly to the side, and often simply leave for their airfields. Unfortunately, what we are reporting to you are not isolated facts. Our troops observe such shameful behavior of fighters every day. We have personally seen at least ten such facts. Not a single case of good behavior of fighters was observed ...

            And it is not some enemies who are slandering, these are representatives of the Supreme Command Headquarters and personally the Commander of the Air Force, time is the end of 1942.
            You need to look at it in a complex way.
            For the same Hartman, both the sortie and the air battle looked completely different from ours. He gained altitude, dived down at high speed, fired at our plane and immediately pulled out of the battle, using a great speed advantage. That's the whole aerial battle.
            Pokryshkin had a similar formula in the middle of the war.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 5 February 2021 11: 02
              0
              Quote: Avior
              Do you think that Hartmann flew from airfield to airfield instead of fighting? Where, then, are our downed ones? And Hartman himself, shot down 14 times?
              Was he transported by car, or did he not fly around his fighter himself? So both the combat raid and the downed ones were attributed by the staff and by "Bubi" himself. Here, for example, we were extremely reluctant to count non-combat losses, they tried to write them down in combat, while the Germans, on the contrary, had a non-combat sortie as a combat one, and in this case the ratio of their downed to combat sorties is just excellent, for statistics.
              Quote: Avior
              And it is not some enemies who are slandering, these are representatives of the Supreme Command Headquarters and personally the Commander of the Air Force, time is the end of 1942.
              There are plenty of reasons for this, shitty radio communication and the same discretion for example. From the ground, this is not visible. Well, "Bubi" began his career just at the end of 1942, so he began to "shoot down" quite experienced and quite initiative Soviet pilots. Subscriptions.
              1. Avior
                Avior 5 February 2021 11: 05
                +1
                The Air Force commander did not know about the connection in his Air Force and complained to Stalin instead of the connection that his subordinates were not fighting well?
                An interesting version .....
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 5 February 2021 11: 20
                  -1
                  Quote: Avior
                  The Air Force commander did not know about the connection in his Air Force and complained instead of the connection to Stalin that his subordinates were not fighting well
                  So he was a bomber, and the arrest after the war also adds questions, was he so good at his post, and did he fail the work, including equipping fighters with radios?
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 5 February 2021 11: 27
                    +1
                    I went through the whole war, and after that I couldn't cope. It happens.
                    but actually, it was not about the reasons, but about how the combat missions were counted
                    and it can be seen from the note that many combat missions were not actually such
                    On the basis of numerous facts, we have come to the conclusion that our fighter aircraft is working very poorly. Our fighters, even in those cases when there are several times more of them than enemy fighters, do not enter into battle with the latter.

                    so everything is natural
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 5 February 2021 11: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: Avior
                      that many sorties were actually not

                      Ours did not count them, the same Drabkin has about it, but the Germans have every sneeze in business.
                    2. Avior
                      Avior 5 February 2021 11: 49
                      +1
                      as you can see from the note, we observed the same thing.
  4. nedgen
    nedgen 6 February 2021 22: 35
    +1
    more than 1400 sorties, in which he conducted 825 air battles

    Well, almost so, because if I am not mistaken, Hartman spent most of the battles in the second half of the war and at the same time recorded most of the VICTORIES for himself. Well, he was shot down 8 times if I am not mistaken, and Kozhedub never. Yes, and his knocked down according to his own book should be divided by 5-8 times. because the type of the plane he shot down was indicated by ground forces only in a maximum of 1 case out of 20-30 (in his own words) and this despite the fact that Hartman, in fact, did not FLY over the front line and to the rear of the Red Army after his escape from captivity and was confirmed by ground troops there were no big problems. Well, let's say if you knocked down all the declared ones, then at least half of them could be confirmed, but there is NO such confirmation. hi
  • Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 16: 24
    +5
    Our postscripts were, let's say, not uncommon. The father, who got into a fighter regiment in the war in 1948, was told about similar things and showed pilots who sinned like them. As for one shot down in two or three fights, these are fairy tales. The wingmen could participate in at least a hundred battles and not shoot down a single one. Likewise, when escorting attack aircraft / bombers, the task of the fighters was not to shoot down the Germans, but not to allow them to be accompanied, with appropriate rewards and punishments.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 4 February 2021 16: 47
      +4
      Our postscripts were, let's say, not uncommon.

      I don't think so .. The same Vasily Stalin has 3 shot down. Well, someone else - and everyone could add a couple of them to him in order to reach the ace .. But no, well ..
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 18: 09
        -2
        You don’t think, but I know. As for Vasya Stalin, his father told in what hothouse conditions he fought. And as for the number of his shot down, God only knows what instructions dad gave about his son's participation in the war.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 4 February 2021 18: 11
          0
          then the father told in what greenhouse conditions he fought

          You were closely acquainted with Comrade Stalin ?? hi
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 18: 24
            -2
            And what have I to do with it ???
            1. paul3390
              paul3390 4 February 2021 18: 27
              -2
              Well - from somewhere do you know to whom and what Vasily's father told about his son? what
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 18: 32
                +1
                Do a good deed, read carefully. I wrote what MY father told me. But my father spoke after the war with Vasya's colleagues.
                1. paul3390
                  paul3390 4 February 2021 18: 57
                  0
                  Aaaa ... No - good deeds are not for me .. And retellings through the tenth hands of someone's fables are even more of no interest to me .. You never know who has spit something to whom. I assure you - if you could communicate incognito with your acquaintances, you would also learn a lot of interesting and surprising things about yourself .. And here - such a famous person.
                  1. Vladimir Mashkov
                    Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 14: 33
                    -2
                    Quote: paul3390
                    And retellings through the tenth hands of someone's fables are even more of no interest to me .. You never know who has spilled something to whom.

                    One of my acquaintances, a pilot who began flying before the war on Po-2 and TB-3, himself a great storyteller, who told me a lot, said: "Nobody lies so well as hunters and aviators!"
                    Blessed memory of Nikolai Semyonovich!
                2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 19: 22
                  -3
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  I wrote what MY father told me. But my father spoke after the war with Vasya's colleagues.

                  oooh
                  do you know what it's called?
                  you are not even referring to dad, but to "colleagues"
                  I'm sorry, but the price is so cheap
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 21: 17
                    0
                    That's right, the participants' memories are nothing. My personal confidence is everything. fellow
            2. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 19: 21
              -1
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              And what have I to do with it ???

              well, you wrote
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              You don’t think, but I know. As for Vasya Stalin, his father told in what hothouse conditions he fought.
        2. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 4 February 2021 19: 21
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          then the father told in what hothouse conditions he fought.

          tell
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 21: 19
            0
            For Vasya's safety, he was released in a group equal to about a regiment.
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 14: 59
              -3
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              For Vasya's safety, he was released in a group equal to about a regiment.

              Do you have any idea which did you write nonsense? For your information, most safe is to fly not in the group, but behind, much higher and link! So, by the way, Alexander Ivanovich flew as a division commander.

              And aviators VERY love to poke around strangers who have hung their ears and "hang noodles on their ears", and then laugh for a long time! lol
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 5 February 2021 18: 20
                -1
                "And behind, much higher and a link" - thank you for clarifying what I have written.
                "Teasing strangers who hung their ears" - if a fighter pilot is considered an outsider, then who is his?
                1. Vladimir Mashkov
                  Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 19: 36
                  -3
                  What are you doing, how can you? Well you wrote: "in a group approximately equal to the regiment"! But the regiment in full force was raised only in order to reflect a massive raid of bombers or to participate in a large group battle !!! But not at all in order to take "Vasya", "Petya", "Misha" for a walk. And Vasily was not such a coward as you portray him. By the way, he was a good pilot. Do not embarrass yourself. Admit it honestly that you wrote nonsense. Let's understand.
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 5 February 2021 22: 06
                    -1
                    Be rude at home.
        3. illuminat
          illuminat 5 February 2021 15: 05
          0
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          As for Vasya Stalin, his father told in what hothouse conditions he fought.

          Combat missions without a parachute, so as not to be taken prisoner - these are definitely hothouse, there is no more hothouse.
  • Simon
    Simon 4 February 2021 16: 32
    -1
    Friends, what to talk about! The Nazis specifically raised the statistics, especially at the beginning of the Second World War, in order to raise their militant rating, to show the whole world how invincible they are.
    1. Avior
      Avior 4 February 2021 23: 08
      +3
      Do you think ours didn't think of raising the morale of the troops?
  • Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 4 February 2021 16: 54
    +5
    It is necessary to separate two reasons for the additions:
    1. Conscientious delusion - the pilot can be completely sure that he hit and shot down an enemy plane and make mistakes. This is inevitable, especially given the primitive means of recording aerial victories (or their complete absence) during WWII.
    2. Deliberate deception at different levels. Again, it was present in any Air Force - demonstration of its own effectiveness, receiving awards, titles, awards, the motives are quite clear.
    The Soviet Air Force attributed victories simply mercilessly, it is enough to recall the words of the commander-16 Rudenko: "... So covering ground troops is a crime ... For all the days, a meager number of bombers were shot down, and they" filled "as many fighters as they did not have enemy. His bombers go even without cover by hundreds ... "(TsAMO RF. F. 486th iap. Op. 21198, D. 3. L. 131.). This, we note to ourselves, is the time of the Kursk battle.
    Or Rybin began to compare the Soviet and German documents on air battles in the Arctic, since the scale of the battles there is small. So what?
    It turned out that the Germans, on average, overestimate the victory rates by 2-2.5 times. Soviet pilots averaged 4-5.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 30
      -2
      Don't lie to Soviet pilots! You are a slanderer! fool
      1. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 4 February 2021 17: 36
        +1
        "A terrible thing, these archives" (c). And this is .. Vladimir Nikolaevich, you have a wife at home, a poor student, you haven't paid for a cooperative apartment. And here you are powdering your brains ...
        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 16: 43
          -3
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          "A terrible thing, these archives" (c). And this is .. Vladimir Nikolaevich, you have a wife at home, a poor student, you haven't paid for a cooperative apartment. And here you are powdering your brains ...

          Judging by your nickname, you, "Ryazanets87", must be a young resident of Ryazan and Russian patriot. But you - for some reason - humiliate Soviet pilots and extol German pilots, you are rude to an elderly person, much older than you, a person, you frighten with some kind of archives and extol someone honest researcher Rybin, referring to his assessment of air battles in the Arctic. And who is this Rybin?

          The article "Equation with one unknown" was published in the magazines "Aviamaster" and "World of Aviation". Its author - Rybin Yu. - a dissident who emigrated to the United States and published this "study" there. Here's how it is characterized:
          "Annotation:
          Translated from English. Article by the well-known dissident, tolerant prisoner of conscience, the greatest fighter against the communist regime in the USSR and veteran of the SS Galicia division, Hauptman Jurasik Rybin. Lives and works in Miami. "

          And here is what he himself writes about his "historical research":
          "The author of the article sets himself the goal of convincing readers that the three-digit accounts of the aerial victories of the German aces are true, and everything said by the Russians is a lie. In his opinion, the list of victories of any German pilot is 5-10 times higher than that of any Russian pilot, because the Aryans the chosen race, and the Russians - the Untermensch ... This material is dedicated to the events that actually took place and the pilots, whose fates crossed in mortal battles in the skies of the Arctic, the author tells the harsh objective truth about the mediocrity of the vaunted Stalin's falcons, and the skill of the blond knights of the Third Reich. "
          "A few words about the lists of losses of the German side, since many readers with righteous indignation will express doubts about some lists of the enemy side. Can you believe them? Not just possible, but also necessary! Because the Germans are the most honest people, and everyone Russians are bastards, scum, drunks, homophobes, Americanophobes and pathetic Untermensch! "
          "What conclusion can be drawn from this? I don't know how things were in other theaters of military operations, but apparently in the Far North not a single German aircraft was shot down during the entire Second World War ..."
          "From all of the above, I would not like to build any global generalizations. But, nevertheless, the author made one main conclusion for himself: due to the inevitable specifics of air combat, the list of declared air victories of any Soviet ace does not correspond to the number of aircraft he actually shot down. But how much it does not correspond, you need to find out individually for each pilot. However, in the general mass, some regularity can still be traced. According to rough estimates, the ratio of actually shot down planes to the declared ones ranges from 1: 100 to 1: 400. "
          "In conclusion of the article, as the genre of historical investigation requires, the author must draw an appropriate conclusion; compare some generalized figures, on the basis of which it would become obvious - whose aces were more effective and whose list of victories should ultimately be longer.
          Only hell you guessed my dear readers! I will not compare some idiotic numbers, because a fool understands that Aryan pilots are the best, and Russians are the worst! Why? My children and grandchildren live in Florida, oil prices are rising - America needs Russian resources and Russian slaves who will work for the camp rations and the right to watch the Dom-2 TV show once a week. I get paid for my work and paid in American dollars. If the Russians pay more than the Americans and provide a mansion on Rublevka, then I will blame America, and so - I work for someone who pays me money for work, and this is an honest business. "

          The entire article of an "honest researcher" is sheer delirium of an unhealthy person. And you offer this as proof?

          Who are you, "Ryazanets87", where are you from and what are your goals for VO?
          1. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 6 February 2021 14: 41
            +1
            But you - for some reason - humiliate Soviet pilots and extol German ones,

            For some reason I do not like lies, either German or Soviet. And stubborn "quasi-patriots" with foam on their lips - also not very.
            be rude to an elderly person, much older than you, a person

            Well, if they put on a photo and called themselves a movie character, then the quotes from the film should be recognized. "Kin-dza-dza" is a rather funny choice for the guardian of Soviet patriotism, but this is your own business.
            scare you with some archives

            It's just that the same Rybin drew his own conclusions from a comparative analysis of Soviet and German archival documents, how sad it is to you. However, we will talk about him later.
            Its author, Rybin Yu., Is a dissident who emigrated to the United States and published this "study" there.

            You do not even understand what Rybin is talking about.
            http://kolanord.ru/index.php/autors/r/rybin-yuv
            Yuri Valentinovich Rybin is a modern historian, lives in Murmansk. And you here footcloths of some mossy Bandera Yurassikov are abundantly quoting.

            In the center, Yuri Rybin, at the presentation of a new book. Far from Florida.
            then you, "Ryazanets87", where are you from and what are your goals for VO?

            The personal file has already begun to be prepared for sending for your review.
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              Vladimir Mashkov 6 February 2021 21: 35
              0
              You know, Nikita, I don't like lies either. Therefore, after reading 30 years ago about the phenomenal accounts of experts, I began to study this issue (in fact, I have been fond of the history of aviation for over 60 years). I studied, read, watched, talked with the participants of the Great Patriotic War (then they were still alive). I had and still have a lot of aviators I know. And last January, VO published the fruits of my many years of reflections - "Aces of the Third Reich. The phenomenon of huge personal accounts." And I'm not a quasi and not a jingoistic patriot. Simple a patriot of the USSR (in which he lived most of his life) and Russia.

              I did not understand your joke with a quote from a good film, I considered it rudeness. Here I am wrong, of course.

              About Rybin from Miami. Here's a story: answering Sergey (Avior) to his link to the same article by Rybin, I skimmed through it (I didn't like it even then) and, looking for information about the author, I came across what I answered to both Sergey and you. Yes, the American Rybin is not Murmansk, of course (now, I believe, he does not exist in reality). Yes, I was mistaken about the author's personality, but not about his views (but more on that below).

              Then I skimmed through the article. And now I read it carefully, studied it. Me VERY alarmed by the following words of the author (I highlighted especially exquisite passages):

              - ... it is alarming that their authors unconditionally question the accounts of the German aces, but not the Soviet. Although it is generally known that the Germans have one very characteristic and significant national feature - the very notorious German punctuality. The author experienced this very well for himself, having lived in Germany for over six years.

              - ... what could be required from the observers of the VNOS posts. As you know, these "farms" were usually sent to the Red Army, only fit for non-combatant service (during the war years there was such a humorous decoding of the abbreviation VNOS - "drank, ate, sleeps again," Ed.).

              - I don't know how things were in other theaters of military operations, but, apparently, in the Far North ...

              - The lists of victories of some of our aces below confirm these correlations. But here it should be noted that some aircraft shot down and confirmed by the opposite side can be claimed not only by other participants in the air battle, but also by anti-aircraft gunners, and in some cases by ordinary soldiers who fired rifles and machine guns at enemy aircraft. therefore only in rare cases we can say with complete confidence that such and such a pilot shot down this particular plane.

              - And in some regiments flightless political instructors, in their instructions on how to fight correctly, reached ...

              - If such a case had occurred among the Germans, then the air victory would have been recorded only for one pilot, that is, the one after whose attack the enemy plane crashed to the ground. Of course, an error is possible here, since the attack of the previous pilot could have been more effective, but but in the Luftwaffe there were no deliberately inflated numbers of air victories.

              - In conclusion, I would like to urge my fellow historians to go up a notch in their works and stop rewriting from each other well-known facts that supposedly should to promote the heroism and high skill of Soviet pilots.

              - ...because many feats, sung by Soviet propaganda, will remain only beautiful legends.


              What follows from everything said in the "honest" article of the Murmansk historian-researcher Yuri Valentinovich Rybin?

              You need to believe not the Soviet data, which are false, but honest punctual truthful German.
              The Germans fought excellently, and the Soviet pilots - very badly. It's just disgusting!
              In fact, almost all German aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft gunners and soldiers from rifles and machine guns, and on rare occasions by Soviet pilots.
              At the VNOS posts there were mentally disabled people who saw little, but reported a pile of German planes that were allegedly shot down.
              The command, commissars and political instructors did not understand anything and lied to the population and the higher leadership about huge victories.
              The author does not cover the entire the activity of Soviet aviation in the Arctic, and skillfully selects the facts, cites stories that confirm his thesis about the mediocrity of Soviet pilots in the Arctic.
              The author calls on fellow historians NOT to promote the heroism and high skill of Soviet pilots and hopes that the exploits of Soviet pilots will be considered legends.

              I am surprised that after this article, the Murmansk historian-researcher Rybin - anti-Soviet, Russophobe and Germanophile - has not been cleaned up and nobody has filed a lawsuit for libel. Although, perhaps, everything is still ahead ... And I understood the sarcasm of the man who wrote about Rybin from Miami ...
            2. Zug
              Zug 7 February 2021 21: 04
              -1
              Here they washed and washed them. I am now reading this Mashkov in the comments - one flood. Dee all his acrome here are not educated, hamlo, stupid. And only here he decides what is written correctly. The arguments, which he is operating here, are like this: The act on the walls of the Reichstag is painted ? -Here, you, ignoramus, are free. Great Mashkov gave a definition here to everyone
      2. Avior
        Avior 4 February 2021 23: 07
        +2
        The results of Rybin's research are fairly well known, although not very often they write about it - the topic is tattooed. There are similar data on Crimea - there was also a relatively isolated area, although not like in the Arctic
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 4 February 2021 16: 56
    +3
    Already in the first months of the war, the payment of monetary rewards for military successes was introduced. Fighter pilots were paid 1 rubles for each shot down enemy aircraft. In 1942, bonuses for a downed aircraft began to depend on its type: for each shot down enemy bomber in the amount of 2 thousand rubles, for a transport plane - 1 rubles, for a fighter - 500 thousand rubles.
    The stories of war heroes and family archives of Muscovites were posted online

    For the destroyed enemy tank, the gunners - the commander and gunner of the gun - were paid 500 rubles, the rest of the crew - 200 rubles, and the crew members - the commander, driver and tower commander - 500 rubles, the rest - 200 rubles. A soldier who knocked out a tank with a grenade received 1 rubles.

    The highest monetary awards were introduced in 1943 in the Navy for the sinking of enemy ships. They depended on the position and rank of the participant in a successful operation. So, for example, the size of the monetary awards for the crew who sank an enemy battleship were as follows: the commander of the ship - 25 thousand rubles, senior and middle officers - 5 thousand rubles each, junior officers - 1 thousand rubles each, sailors - 500 rubles each. to each.

    The crew of the plane that sank the destroyer or the enemy submarine was given: the commander and navigator - 10 thousand rubles each, radio gunners - 2500 rubles each. If several crews took part in the sinking of the ship, the monetary reward was distributed between them by the decision of the Military Council of the fleet.
    1. Avior
      Avior 4 February 2021 17: 38
      +3
      about the fact that the results of the pilots and the submariners were overestimated - it's not a secret for a long time, only they don't write about it very much
      for example, according to Lunin
      In total, during the war, Lunin was credited with the sinking of 17 enemy ships and vessels [11], of which 4 victories were confirmed in the post-war period: 2 transport, a large submarine hunter and an unarmed Norwegian motorboat, as well as damage to three more motorbots [4] [ ten].

      on Marinesko - when Steuben drowned, reported that he had drowned the cruiser - 20000 rubles awards (for transport - 2000)
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 4 February 2021 17: 42
        +2
        Quote: Avior
        about the fact that the results of the pilots and the submariners were overestimated - it's not a secret for a long time, only they don't write about it very much
        for example, according to Lunin
        In total, during the war, Lunin was credited with the sinking of 17 enemy ships and vessels [11], of which 4 victories were confirmed in the post-war period: 2 transport, a large submarine hunter and an unarmed Norwegian motorboat, as well as damage to three more motorbots [4] [ ten].

        on Marinesko - when Steuben drowned, reported that he had drowned the cruiser - 20000 rubles awards (for transport - 2000)

        Well, and then some questions - "why the heroes are offended", can it just sometimes be on the brakes, let's say "financial crimes" (after all, the premium for not being shot down, this is a criminal offense) was released?
      2. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 4 February 2021 17: 57
        0
        Lunin's arts in relation to Norwegian fishermen have rather distinct signs of a war crime. He also lost a sailor, who was caught by the Norwegians.
    2. bubalik
      bubalik 4 February 2021 18: 14
      +1
      enemy in the amount of 2 thousand rubles, for a transport plane - 1 rubles, for a fighter - 500 thousand rubles.
      The stories of war heroes and family archives of Muscovites were posted online

      For the destroyed enemy tank, the gunners - the commander and gunner of the gun - were paid 500 rubles, the rest of the crew - 200 rubles, and the crew members - the commander, driver and tower commander - 500 rubles, the rest - 200 rubles. Fighter

      ,,, a bottle of vodka at market prices during the war.
      The writer Vsevolod Ivanov left a note in his diary about prices in the city of Gorky in the fall of 1942 - “a glass of millet costs 25 rubles, tobacco - from 30 to 50 rubles, vodka - a liter - 450, and in Kuibyshev, as our roommates tell us, - 800 rubles. " ...
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 4 February 2021 18: 18
        +1
        Quote: bubalik
        a bottle of vodka at market prices during the war.

        They paid after the war - the pilots drank like firemen. The most stressful profession in the war was said to be. Almost all the time in the rear, then the war for several hours, and then again in the rear .. Psychologists say such a zebra greatly shatters the nerves. Constant stress dulls the nervous system.
        1. bubalik
          bubalik 4 February 2021 18: 30
          +2
          The gunner-radio operator of the Il-4 bomber Andrei Fedorovich Redyushev recalled how his pilot relieved stress after an unsuccessful landing in the Soviet rear:
          “The commander is angry, he doesn't talk to the navigator. "Mistress, can I buy vodka?" - "Our expensive vodka - 400 rubles." I counted out. The hostess went and brought it. "
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 4 February 2021 18: 32
            +1
            Quote: bubalik
            The gunner-radio operator of the Il-4 bomber Andrei Fedorovich Redyushev recalled how his pilot relieved stress after an unsuccessful landing in the Soviet rear:
            “The commander is angry, he doesn't talk to the navigator. "Mistress, can I buy vodka?" - "Our expensive vodka - 400 rubles." I counted out. The hostess went and brought it. "

            Well, you know, in wartime, you can go to court for this ..
  • Clear
    Clear 4 February 2021 20: 04
    +4
    "Countless number of victories of German aces" - there are doubts
    Of course have winked won, the German aces, won, and others signed on the defeated Reichstag love
    1. Zug
      Zug 7 February 2021 21: 07
      -1
      We got to the root, why teach history? We signed on the Reichstag.
      1. Clear
        Clear 8 February 2021 10: 05
        +2
        Quote: Zug
        We got to the root, why teach history? We signed on the Reichstag.

        You definitely didn't sign.
        I didn’t say that you don’t have to learn history.
        The USSR defeated fascist Germany and the units allocated to it from practically all European states. Dot.
        1. Zug
          Zug 8 February 2021 15: 06
          -1
          You wrote about the Reichstag, not me. And no one from Europe gave the Germans anything, scream. They went there themselves, with the exception. And not in such colossal quantities as some believe.
          1. Clear
            Clear 8 February 2021 20: 17
            +1
            Quote: Zug
            And no one from Europe singled out anything to the Germans.



            And you are also talking about the fact that
            Quote: Zug
            Why teach history?
            that's really innocence itself and really
            Quote: Zug
            -humor

            These numbers are not for you. It's useless for you to prove.
            In total, about 2 million people from 15 European countries fought in the Wehrmacht troops (more than half a million - the Romanian army, almost 400 thousand - Hungarian troops, more than 200 thousand - Mussolini's troops!).
            Of these, during the war years 59 divisions, 23 brigades, several separate regiments, legions and battalions were formed.
            1. Zug
              Zug 10 February 2021 13: 22
              -2
              So what next? Who "singled out" them there and out of 2 million there not all fought. The main "fighters" are Romania, Hungary, Finland. The rest are like that, with peace on a string. Neither the French nor the Italians decided how they or strategic tasks. And in general, the French seized from us in December 41 no longer fought. What can be said about the Italians. More or less "adequate" warriors of all and in sufficient numbers were Finns and Hungarians. Well, in some places there are still Romanians. And remember-EVERYTHING, the Germans solved the strategically important tasks with the exception (the Finns). Everything else is, even according to our soldiers, this is a shellon. And the same Italians, of whom several days (6 in my army) were crushed (in the literal sense) by tanks, by no means does not pull on the warriors from 41 to 45 on the eastern front. Well, and certainly not "allocated. The allocations come from other places. And juggling with numbers without understanding anything ... well, it's a flawed thing. P, S and yes, here's another- the Germans not only on the eastern front were up to their throats.
              1. Clear
                Clear 10 February 2021 21: 04
                +1
                Quote: Zug
                And juggling numbers without understanding anything ... well, it's a flawed thing.

                You are juggling here on Russian websites, highly understanding and exceptionally civilized.

                Quote: Zug
                Everything else is, even according to our soldiers, it is a husk.

                Together, all this husk, destroyed 27 million of my fellow citizens. And to this day we have not recovered from this.

                Quote: Zug
                And remember, EVERYTHING, the Germans solved the strategically important tasks with an exception (the Finns).

                You will remember that they are all murderers and war criminals against humanity. No reooooooo exception!

                Quote: Zug
                So what's next?

                Then we go to Brazil, sell wool, buy coffee ...
                1. Zug
                  Zug 11 February 2021 08: 55
                  -3
                  This is all a controversy, murderers and criminals, shelupon. Remember, the shelupon (Germans) would not have reached Moscow in 4 months and we would not have driven this shelupon for more than 2 and a half years to the borders. .Hello to you from Brazil
                  1. Clear
                    Clear 11 February 2021 11: 36
                    +2
                    Quote: Zug
                    This is all a controversy, murderers and criminals, huskies.

                    Why are you going to fight with us? You have had enough of polemics.

                    Quote: Zug
                    Remember, the Shelupon (Germans) would not have reached Moscow in 4 months and back we would not have driven this Shelupon for more than 2 and a half years to the borders.

                    Remember, they reached Moscow and thanks to the courage of the Soviet people and their glory and weapons, the myth of the invincibility of the fascists with vassals was dispelled.
                    Then, in Stalingrad, they broke the back of this fascist scum, and after the Kursk Bulge they drove the filthy people into their "civilization".

                    Quote: Zug
                    And yes, I don't like pseudo-hurray patriotism.

                    So I know that you in Europe, under the control of the United States, are now getting drunk. Transfer? Although, no, it's disgusting.

                    Quote: Zug
                    Hello from Brazil

                    Well, hello, a state-agrarian state with an extremely high cost of goods and doing business with a relatively low standard of living for the majority of the country's population drinks
                    1. Zug
                      Zug 17 February 2021 21: 33
                      +1
                      Remember, pseudo-hurray, patriotism has not ended in anything good. "With a bayonet and a grenade" - should be left at 41. Read a little, think ... add two plus two. Or do you think that the Germans were defeated near Moscow? -no ... That's the trouble. And near Kursk, all the more not .. And the way to the west was difficult and bloody .. If the Germans were defeated near Moscow, who, for example, near Rzhev and in Rzhev sat? Near Kursk? And who staged a massacre for our in Kharkov at the beginning of 43? Here is ... Army Group Center ... Defeated ... Alas, and ah, read the definition of the word at your leisure ... Stalingrad is about to be defeated, but not Kursk ... Or Moscow. This is REALITIES, but they did not "drove the holopes across Europe "Learn learn and LEARN ...
                    2. Clear
                      Clear 18 February 2021 18: 41
                      +5
                      Quote: Zug
                      Remember, pseudo-hurray, patriotism hasn't ended well yet.
                      Remember, yourself, your gay tolerance with parents # 1, 2 will not end well ...

                      Quote: Zug
                      "With a bayonet and a grenade" - should be left at 41.
                      So recommend this to your US hosts.
                      And, it came in handy for us in 2015, when Bandera's forces were "kneaded" in the Ilovaisk and Debaltsov "cauldrons", as well as during the defeat of ISIS in Syria.

                      Quote: Zug
                      Read a little, think .. two plus two add up.
                      The result is two plus two - I see, according to your level of trolling.

                      Quote: Zug
                      Or do you think that the Germans were defeated near Moscow?
                      No, they captured Moscow and held a parade there lol And then woke up ...

                      Quote: Zug
                      Here's a scream.
                      Glad to meet you, my name is Yasnaya hi

                      Quote: Zug
                      I will disappoint you, no ... That's the problem.
                      Well, be sad a little.


                      Quote: Zug
                      And near Kursk, all the more no .. And the way to the west was difficult and bloody .. If the Germans were defeated near Moscow, who, for example, near Rzhev and sat in Rzhev? Near Kursk? And who staged our massacre in Kharkov at the beginning of 43? Here ... Army Group Center ... Defeated ... Alas, and ah, read the definition of the word at your leisure ..
                      Yeah ... winked not all Chernobyl bypassed ...

                      Quote: Zug
                      Alas and ah, read the definition of the word at your leisure ..
                      Everything is clear, you do not eat. But you must! yes


                      Quote: Zug
                      These are REALITIES, but they did not "drove the golops across Europe" Learn to learn and LEARN ...
                      You are not with the one, "dear" trying to open the "Overton Window".
                      Learn for yourself. Otherwise, you will find yourself, with the rewriting of history, together with your Balts, Poland and the United States, in a repetition of the past.
                    3. The comment was deleted.
  • svp67
    svp67 5 February 2021 06: 19
    0
    Quote: novel xnumx
    and hardly a postscript

    Yes, everyone had postscripts
    1. Zug
      Zug 7 February 2021 21: 10
      -1
      Here it is useless for some comrades to prove this. I am sending the person here a link to the veteran on the flight hours at the school-lies, through 2 comments to another opponent he writes how he talked a lot with veterans - fighters. Then he already believes them for some reason. In general, some kind of tumbler. Of course, they attributed everything. Pole-minus. This is war and people are fighting in war. He attributed it to me, but fought and flew the same. Not attributed, also fought and flew. All heroes.
  • Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 4 February 2021 15: 32
    +3
    Once I read the book "Aces of the Luftwaffe", as far as I remember. So there was an interesting fact: a certain "ace of the Luftwaffe", when he was in Africa, simply shot ammunition in the desert, then declared victories, and they were credited to him. It turned out (by the Germans) that in this way he "clocked" almost a hundred victories. I don’t remember how he was punished. But the "victory" was not written off.
    By the way, it was also indicated there that the Hartmann's ammunition consumption was 12 shells per shot down. Believe it?
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 4 February 2021 15: 38
      +4
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      By the way, it was also indicated there that the Hartmann's ammunition consumption was 12 shells per shot down. Believe it?

      It's okay for a Jedi Knight ..
    2. Avior
      Avior 4 February 2021 15: 48
      +2
      And what did he show from the machine gun film?
      1. Vladimir Mashkov
        Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 06
        -1
        Quote: Avior
        And what did he show from the machine gun film?

        The film was accidentally lit up! Regularly every time! lol
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 4 February 2021 19: 02
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        And what did he show from the machine gun film?
        One frame per shot, 12 frames per shot ... something can be shown. Archive, again ...
        1. Avior
          Avior 4 February 2021 23: 59
          0
          I mean the one about whom they write that he shot in the sand
          It is unclear, the machine gun was switched on synchronously with the weapon. Well, once passed, but not systematically
          1. Vladimir Mashkov
            Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 17: 14
            -1
            Well, there are many options:
            - could "forget" to insert the film
            - could "accidentally" light up the film
            - could have been simply in cahoots with the film processors
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 17: 31
              -2
              But, most likely, they did not have a camera gun, as mentioned in the video. The option was "Believe us, our word of honor, gentlemen!"
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Avior
                Avior 5 February 2021 20: 49
                0
                below they wrote that there is no confirmation of this case.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 5 February 2021 19: 17
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            I mean the one about whom they write that he shot in the sand
            He didn't have a machine gun.
            Report: "Do you see the enemy squadrons in the sky ?! No ?! Woo-oh-oh! I killed everyone!"
            "I wanted to photograph the wreckage, but everything was covered with sand."
          3. Reserve buildbat
            Reserve buildbat 5 February 2021 20: 50
            +2
            It was just that we were all ... The follower confirmed - it means victory. Then the wingman announced 100500 shot down during the flight, and the leader confirmed. These are "experts", "knights", it is a sin to doubt their stories.
            1. Zug
              Zug 7 February 2021 21: 13
              -1
              Duck, too, our follower confirmed as it were ... They attributed everything.
    3. Vadim Golubkov
      Vadim Golubkov 4 February 2021 16: 07
      +1
      I also wanted to write about this, I see you wrote, if I'm not mistaken, American Mike Speke wrote about this in his book "Aces of the Luftwaffe".
      1. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 4 February 2021 18: 00
        +1
        This, by the way, was not written by Spik, but by Kornyukhin, the author of the preface to the Russian edition of Asov of the Luftwaffe. Since then, Vogel has been floating around the forums. I even tried to look for something about him, it became curious. Found only Jurgen Vogel in the 27th squadron, died over Sicily.
    4. Vadim Golubkov
      Vadim Golubkov 4 February 2021 16: 18
      +2
      12 rounds? I read somewhere in general that Hartman spent 1 shell on one fighter and shot him down, this is tin, and 12 cannon rounds into a fighter, nonsense compared to 1 shell. And after all, someone believes smile
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 4 February 2021 16: 51
        +2
        In Hartmann's flight book in the records of victories in almost half of the cases of the graph, the type of aircraft is generally empty ... How can you understand if the victory was on tape ?? Nemchura suck did not understand the types of enemy aircraft?

        1. Vladimir Mashkov
          Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 02
          +1
          Pavel, he's an ace! I was shooting with my eyes closed, I did not see the planes, I did not identify them. And the films were accidentally illuminated every time. But "victories" were written regularly: "Believe me, gentlemen!" lol lol lol
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 4 February 2021 17: 08
            +3
            For example, I like the entry from 4.06.44 - there are SIX YAK-9 per day !!!! belay This is in 44th, when our open greenery has long ceased to fly. wassat Yes, and Yak-9 is not a fig I-153 .. bully
            1. Vladimir Mashkov
              Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 13
              +4
              Eh, Pavel! What is it worth to a real German expert to crash five or two Soviet planes! Ugh, nonsense! lol
        2. Avior
          Avior 4 February 2021 17: 38
          +1
          it is not always so easy to determine the type of aircraft
          1. Elturisto
            Elturisto 5 February 2021 12: 25
            0
            The attack was carried out from a short distance of 100-200 meters, even a blind man can figure it out. In addition, there were not many main types of aircraft in the USSR (after 1943) - fighters Yak, LA, Peshki and Il-2, all types are easy to distinguish apart.
            1. Avior
              Avior 5 February 2021 12: 28
              0
              The first aircraft shot down by Pokryshkin in the war is our Su-2.
              1. Elturisto
                Elturisto 5 February 2021 12: 49
                +1
                You are apparently as blind as Hartman. Pokryshkin shot down a Su-2, a plane that was little known at that time, and this is why there are problems with identification. In Hartman's case, a significant number of those who were shot down were of undefined types.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 5 February 2021 17: 28
                  +1
                  Pokryshkin and shot down an aircraft with difficult identification, not of a certain type
        3. Engineer
          Engineer 4 February 2021 19: 50
          0
          The book about Hartmann was published in Russia twenty-two years ago. But still people do not understand that the second flight book, which recorded victories after the 150th, was lost. The first has been preserved and everything is neatly filled in
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 4 February 2021 20: 40
            0
            Toliver and Constable write: "The data on the rest of Hartman's victories are taken from JG-52's diary or his letters to Ursula Petsch" [227] to Hartman's fiance and then to Hartman's wife). I immediately have a question: why is it so difficult? JG-52 Squadron Combat Diary is an official document. Headquarters employees receive awards from the number of aircraft shot down by the squadron, and you can be 100% sure that they did not forget to enter in their diary any of the aircraft shot down by Hartman.

            So what? Are victories to Hartmann credited only with the results of the first book? No - everything is cheeky. And Chech - does not beat. Besides, why is there no complete data in the combat diary? Was it filled with a bulldozer? I thought that it was the flight book that was compiled on its basis .. And if all the entries with empty fields are exclusively from the type of letters to the bride, then the number turns out to be noticeably smaller, isn't it?

            And again - I sooo strongly doubt that even Hartmann - was able in one day, as much as 44, to fill up as many as SIX Yak-9 .. Well, I do not believe it, even burst! Wrong time, wrong pilots, wrong planes .. It wasn't the 41st tea in the yard ..
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 4 February 2021 22: 00
              +2
              I repeat.
              When you said that
              Hartmann's flight book in the records of victories, almost half of the cases of the column type of aircraft are generally empty.

              You wrote nonsense. Because the second book has not survived, and in the first the type of aircraft is always indicated.
              What could be incomprehensible here?
              Comparison of results and verification against JG 52 documents is a separate issue.
              Here you did not write nonsense, but simply gave outdated information. By 2015, Matthews and Foreman conducted a comparison and published a restored list of Hartmann's victories - it is posted on the English Wiki. Come on in and make sure it contains all the details for 80-90 percent of claimed wins.
              Of course, this does not solve all the questions.
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 4 February 2021 22: 06
                0
                Well yes. A couple of bourgeois, 70 years after the war, by means of comparisons, it is not clear what type of restored the list .. Before them - no one could, but they - rrrraz and could. And I have to believe it right there.

                And nonsense - you broadcast. Blindly believing all sorts of tales .. By the way, can you also believe in the 100 million killed in the Gulag? belay
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 4 February 2021 22: 12
                  -1
                  You won't calm down even after being poked
                  The "bourgeois couple" naturally used the research of previous researchers - Prin, Stemmer and others. This is a generalizing work reflecting the current state of the problem.
            2. Avior
              Avior 5 February 2021 00: 18
              +2
              Do you believe that one of our pilots could shoot down five German planes in one battle in 1943?
    5. Pete mitchell
      Pete mitchell 4 February 2021 16: 51
      0
      Quote: stock buildbat
      Once I read the book "Aces of the Luftwaffe", as far as I remember.

      There was such a book, I read it back in '87 in the original. I don't remember about the shells, but for the same Bubi, about 160 victories are confirmed only in his letters to his wife. By the way, it seems, it was shot down 12 times. After the war in the camp he behaved with dignity; and later did not forgive the amers for the surrender of 52JG to the Soviet troops.
      1. Vladimir Mashkov
        Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 18: 09
        +1
        An excerpt from my article:
        10. All German experts (with the rare exception) repeatedly lost their way. Even the best experts went astray repeatedly: No. 1, Hartman, - 14 times, No. 2, Barghorn, - 9 times, No. 7, Rudorffer, - 16 times, No. 8, Rem, - 18 times, No. 15, Lippert, - 15 times, No. 34, Dupman, - 19 times. And the most vaunted and titled pilot of the Third Reich, dive Rudel, is already 32 times, wounded several times, his right leg was amputated! At the same time, Kozhedub and most famous Soviet aces have never been shot down!
        1. Avior
          Avior 5 February 2021 00: 20
          0
          Kozhedub had much less sorties than the Germans
      2. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer 4 February 2021 19: 09
        +1
        Why didn't he forgive, like he didn't go to serve in the Bundeswehr, or did he go?
        1. Pete mitchell
          Pete mitchell 4 February 2021 19: 55
          +3
          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          Why didn't you forgive ... or did you go?

          52JG surrendered to the Americans, but the Americans once handed it over to the Soviet army at an overnight stay: the guard simply changed. The same Hartman was sentenced as war criminal, which does not fit at all with the "blond knight of the Reich." After his release, Hartman was reinstated in the Luftwaffe and did not hesitate to express his rejection of the Amer's methods, they were planted along with the equipment. A high rank, position, respect and respect - he just got in the way, so he left the service not in the best position ...
          By the way, I also rejected all offers in the camp.
    6. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 4 February 2021 16: 57
      0
      Normal rate for shooting down a 1-engine aircraft. Good Allied fighters spent about the same.
      Do you doubt that 12 20mm rounds can fatally damage a 1-engine aircraft more than half made of wood? One hit to the engine and hello, maybe.
      1. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 4 February 2021 17: 03
        +5
        You are greatly mistaken. 12 shells are ammunition consumption for 1 plane. It doesn't matter if it's a fighter, bomber or transport. Do you really think that all those 12 shells hit the enemy plane? Try to hit a growth target from 50 meters by shooting a pistol while driving at a speed of 50-70 km / h on uneven roads.
        1. Ryazan87
          Ryazan87 4 February 2021 17: 21
          -2
          Enough 5-6 accurate hits. In the cab, the engine.
          The example, to put it mildly, is incorrect, if only because the pistol is not combined with the vehicle systems.
          Place a rigidly fixed 20-mm cannon on the car, put it on the steering wheel, install a collimator sight, and train for six months. I think you will hit the growth target quite confidently. True, 50 meters is a bit too much - almost all the aces fired directly from the minimum distances (the famous rule: "You saw rivets - shoot") and the shooters were outstanding. Why do you think there have never been more than 5% of the total number of pilots?
          1. illuminat
            illuminat 5 February 2021 15: 45
            +1
            Quote: Ryazanets87
            Enough 5-6 accurate hits. In the cab, the engine.

            Enough. But unrealistic. Usually from a queue of 20-30 shells hit 1-2. And not "in the cockpit" (you would have written "in the nose of the pilot"), but at best in the silhouette of the fuselage, usually "in the plane in general."

            Quote: Ryazanets87
            True, 50 meters is a bit too much - almost all the aces fired directly from the minimum distances
            An experienced ace is immediately visible. In fact, 50 m is a pistol distance, in WWII it meant almost point blank, closer than 30 m - you get into your own fragments / debris of the shot down.
            1. Ryazan87
              Ryazan87 6 February 2021 14: 57
              -1
              Enough. But unrealistic. Usually from a queue of 20-30 shells hit 1-2.

              for the average pilot, certainly. For an ace - quite. Again, they shot much better, this is one of their key differences. Don't want the Germans, well, let the Canadian be:
              ".... Indeed, he had just exceptional vigilance. Once Burling announced a" possibly shot down "plane, having put in" McKee " only five shells, all in the cockpit canopy. Later, wreckage from an Italian fighter was found, confirming victory. But, as a rule, our Canadian did not need such confirmation, since all his victims exploded in the air ... "(c)
              In fact, 50 m is a pistol distance, in WWII it meant almost point blank, closer than 30 m - you get into your own fragments / debris of the shot down.

              They themselves confirmed that 30-50 m is the distance of the most effective fire. And, by the way, there are plenty of cases when the winner suffered from the wreckage of the shot down. Well, Shestakov is the same.
              1. illuminat
                illuminat 9 February 2021 14: 12
                0
                Quote: Ryazanets87
                Once Burling announced a "possibly shot down" plane, dropping only five rounds into the McKee, all of them in the canopy. Later, wreckage from an Italian fighter was found, confirming the victory.
                It's just a hunting bike. To shoot down a single-engine fighter, as a rule, one is enough (specially in words - one shell). Two is an almost guaranteed hit. Five - 100% destruction in the air. What is "possibly downed" here?

                Quote: Ryazanets87
                for the average pilot, certainly. For an ace - quite. Again, they shot much better, this is one of their key differences.
                What are we talking about. The ace differed from the "average" pilot in that out of 20-30 spent shells, he was guaranteed to plant 1-2.
                You just do not take tales at face value.

                Quote: Ryazanets87
                They themselves confirmed that 30-50 m is the distance of the most effective fire.
                Yes, I did not seem to confirm. You said that 50 meters is a lot, and all the aces fired from smaller distances. I explain to you - 50 m is already "point-blank". I don't even mention the aiming distance of the wing weapon, so as not to complicate.
                Here you just need to take into account that shooting is a process. Flows through time. to attack comfortable Vsbl = 15-25 m / s, a safely (war is) 50 m / s or more. At a rate of fire "Hispano" 10-12 rds / sec, you either start fire from 100-150 m (as it has always been done), or you will have time to release only 10-15 shells from both barrels before you need to start exiting the attack.

                In general, everything is not easy. And you have to be very careful about believing pop literature.
            2. Sergey M. Karasev
              Sergey M. Karasev 9 February 2021 07: 48
              0
              In fact, 50 m is a pistol distance, in WWII it meant almost point blank, closer than 30 m - you get into your own fragments / debris of the shot down.

              Lev Shestakov died just like that when he shot the Junkers from a very close distance, and the bombs detonated at that one.
    7. Vladimir Mashkov
      Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 41
      +1
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      But the "victory" was not written off.

      This was "heroic" by the commander of the staff of the 4th group of the 27th squadron, Oberleutenant Vogel, with those led by his mop in August 1942, when they "shot down" 65 enemy aircraft (shooting the sand of the Sahara desert). After being exposed, they were scattered in different parts. But the planes remained on the account: they were also reported to Berlin! laughing laughing laughing
    8. illuminat
      illuminat 5 February 2021 15: 36
      +1
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      Once I read the book "Aces of the Luftwaffe", as far as I remember. So there was an interesting fact: a certain "ace of the Luftwaffe", when he was in Africa, simply shot ammunition in the desert, then declared victories, and they were credited to him. It turned out (by the Germans) that in this way he "clocked" almost a hundred victories. I don’t remember how he was punished. But the "victory" was not written off.
      This is often written by all and sundry.
      In the book "Aces of the Luftwaffe" by M. Spik there is no such thing at all. The episode with the "link of experts" by Lt Vogel from JG27 in Africa (60 "shot down" by four in a week, ammunition in the sand, etc.) is described in the INTRODUCTORY ARTICLE to the publication, by Kornyukhin. It is difficult to say whether Kornyukhin himself invented this or not, but no one else mentions this case anywhere else.
      The propagandist Y. Mukhin lied that the episode was allegedly described in M. Spik's book itself, and already with his light hand the province began to dance "look, even Western authors expose ..."
      I could not find which of the real pilots fits Kornyukhin's bike. Of the four Vogels, three are Unthers (22, 10 and 5 wins) and the title of one (5 wins) is not indicated. They flew one in JG3, one in JG53 and two in JG77.
  • Avior
    Avior 4 February 2021 15: 47
    +4
    You can endlessly look at fire, water, how others work and argue how many Germans were shot down
    On the last point - undoubtedly less than what is written
    And they were credited for sure, and really the pilot - the fighter could not track everyone at whom he shot and hit
    And this is the problem that theirs, that ours.
    Those fragmentary calculations that can be seen on the network in comparison with the claimed shot down and the real ones as shot down according to the enemy's documents are very different, this is not a secret
    The regimental superiors that they have, that we in general were interested in recording more shot down, this is a plus for him.
    Therefore, in my opinion, the dispute is empty.
    1. Reserve buildbat
      Reserve buildbat 4 February 2021 17: 05
      +1
      There is a difference that our victory was confirmed by a numbered part from the downed plane (best of all, a nameplate), confirmation of VNOS posts and ground troops. The Fritzes have the staff of the FKP, and even then they often "took their word for the gentlemen."
      1. Ryazan87
        Ryazan87 4 February 2021 17: 27
        -1
        And most often it ended up receiving confirmation from the groundmen, and even then not always. Although it should be noted, the Soviet command was quite active in fighting amateurs "in one fell swoop with seven beats."
        1. Reserve buildbat
          Reserve buildbat 4 February 2021 17: 29
          +4
          If the plane crashed on our territory, show the number part. Otherwise, you will get "presumably", but such victories did not go into the battle score.
      2. Avior
        Avior 4 February 2021 17: 47
        +4
        if you think that you did not write it down without presenting the license plate, then you are mistaken.
        yes, and you can type such nameplates in advance - on the generator your own, on the starter your own, the plane is stuck with them, and everyone has their own numbers, and which plane it belongs to, this is only in the form for the plane, and you do not always have the opportunity go to the downed plane. The VNOS posts also gave confirmation - they did not mind, especially if the pilots threw something in, the flight support was much higher than that of others.
        As for the Germans, I don't know who said that they have enough frames from the machine gun. As far as I know, there was a whole questionnaire of 21 items, including witnesses. They were credited anyway, of course.
        where prizes, titles and awards will appear anyway, it just so happened.
        The bosses, too, were not interested in reducing the reported downed ones - this is a plus for him, too, that such aces serve him, educated and trained!
        1. illuminat
          illuminat 5 February 2021 15: 58
          -2
          Quote: Avior
          As for the Germans, I don't know who said that they have enough frames from the machine gun. As far as I know, there was a whole questionnaire of 21 items, including witnesses.
          The FKP were on a meager number of German fighters. Filling out the questionnaires was limited only by paper, ink, and the pilot's imagination.
          Confirmation from the Germans depended ONLY ON the COMMANDER of the group / squadron. And that's all. If you are on good terms with him, you were confirmed without the FKP, and without witnesses. And if you really need to, then without departure (it happened). If, however, with the commander in counter, you will get bogged down to swallow dust.

          Politically correctly they called it "if a pilot has gained authority, he can be taken at his word." Many (to honor, not all) used it. And, having photographed the same plane at the FCP (a battle with three Pe-2s), they boldly reported about 2 shot down (having in fact one slightly damaged), such as Weissenberger. Or, having fought with the five, they reported about 25 opponents, of which they shot down (attention!) 13. And this was not all the applications were counted (Brunner was not yet a well-deserved ace and they did not believe him).
  • yehat2
    yehat2 4 February 2021 16: 00
    +3
    Quote: mat-vey
    So it seems that the prize was relied on for the knocked down ... And where there is finances, control increases many times

    In the Soviet Air Force, confirming a downed aircraft was often difficult.
    especially if he fell into uncontrolled territory.
    Downed in a group battle are also a separate story.
    For example, he-111 was shot over Moscow from machine guns 3 mig-3, and as a result it fell somewhere damaged. Who should record the victory? It was even more difficult for the beginners to confirm their victory, so experienced pilots often gave their victories to them.
    As a result, the downed planes of the Soviet Air Force are almost equal to the confirmed ones, which is much less than those that generally fell on the eastern front. And to say how many were returned recorded by the Germans as shot down and how many were attributed (because there were often no witnesses on the hunt) is a separate conversation.
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 February 2021 00: 24
      +1
      ... As a result, the downed planes of the Soviet Air Force are almost equal to the confirmed ones, which is much less than those that generally fell on the eastern front.

      Sorry, can you give a link to who made such a count?
      By the way, they could fall for purely technical reasons.
  • obratov
    obratov 4 February 2021 16: 18
    -5
    This is ... a very topical investigation! We cannot bury our soldiers for 75 years (the range is from 7 to 52 million dead ... somewhere like that), but we confidently talk about the planes shot down by the Germans!
    1. user1212
      user1212 4 February 2021 16: 29
      +4
      Quote: obratov
      spread from 7 to 52 million dead ... somewhere like that

      Why only 52 million? Hundreds of billions fool
      1. Speedy
        Speedy 4 February 2021 18: 04
        +2
        Hundreds of billions are GULAG. And so tens of billions.
      2. mat-vey
        mat-vey 4 February 2021 19: 12
        +2
        Quote: user1212
        Why only 52 million?

        but I liked it called 34,5 million, but 52 million died.
      3. obratov
        obratov 4 February 2021 19: 48
        -5
        Yes, I'm mine, brothers! I am for Osip Ssarionych! He said so in 45: "Sem!" And then Nikita came up with: 20! Well ... 7-20! And under Gorbat in general, they began to talk about 27 ... Now, won, these liberals ... I'm over 7! Vote ?! Kozhedub flew the U-2 (known fact)! He shot down 15000 of theirs fighters on it ... all sorts of them (I could not stand the intranet equipment). What is the bazaar about ?!
      4. The comment was deleted.
  • zenion
    zenion 4 February 2021 16: 20
    -1
    It is not necessary to shoot down it is enough to shoot in the direction of the Soviet plane and it is considered downed. Reminds of an anecdote about a new Russian who was in England. He sat down to play cards. One looked and said so much, the other said so much. New Russian asks you to check the cards. One answers him - we are gentlemen and take our word for it. And then the new Russian told me the map flooded.
  • Dmitry_7,
    Dmitry_7, 4 February 2021 17: 30
    -3
    Raise the statistics of the number of aircraft produced in the USSR from 1940 to 1945 and subtract the number that was in service at the end of the war. Plus the supply of aircraft under Lend-Lease in the same manner, you will get approximate losses of the Red Army Air Force in aircraft.
    - Uncle Sasha, is it scary in war?
    - Scary guys, scary.
    - And how scary?
    - A regiment of attack aircraft takes off to attack enemy positions, and two or three vehicles return from a mission.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Vladimir Mashkov
      Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 17: 56
      0
      Quote: Dmitry_7,
      - A regiment of attack aircraft takes off to attack enemy positions, and two or three vehicles return from a mission.

      Mr. advanced expert! Please enlighten the ignoramus (otherwise I am in great difficulty): how many new regiments were arriving at the front airfield? Two or three?
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 4 February 2021 18: 08
        +2
        Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
        Mr. advanced expert! Please enlighten the ignoramus (otherwise I am in great difficulty): how many new regiments were arriving at the front airfield? Two or three?

        And let the statistics of anti-aircraft artillery add ...
        PySy just like the tankers from the toy - all the tanks knocked out each other, and the gunners and miners only watched from the stalls.
      2. Vladimir Mashkov
        Vladimir Mashkov 4 February 2021 18: 14
        -1
        Supplement:
        How many new stormtrooper regiments еженедельно arrived at the front airfield? Two or three? I look forward to hearing!
    3. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 4 February 2021 18: 09
      0
      You will also estimate the departures of the British when 25% remained from each departure.
    4. dzvero
      dzvero 4 February 2021 18: 33
      0
      There are different numbers about the losses of the Red Army Air Force. General 88-106 thousand, of which combat 43-46 thousand (shot down or destroyed on the ground). That, in principle, correlates with the losses of HP - "during the war years 44 pilots were trained. 093 were killed in action." (c) Most of the "losses" are write-off on resource and flight accidents (failures of materiel or piloting errors). The total losses of the Germans on the Eastern Front are slightly less than 27 thousand, of which about 600 thousand are in combat.
    5. user1212
      user1212 5 February 2021 05: 49
      -1
      Quote: Dmitry_7,
      get the approximate losses of the Red Army Air Force in aircraft.

      Why is that? And those who returned, but written off for lack of spare parts? And what about those written off during the rearmament of the squadrons for new types? And those who have exhausted their resource? And those who were beaten by young animals during training flights? Lost due to a technical malfunction out of combat? Are these also combat losses? You fell off the Christmas tree and hurt your head? laughing
    6. Elturisto
      Elturisto 5 February 2021 12: 35
      0
      Enough to lie already. Most of the Red Army Air Force planes contained structural elements made of wood and fabric, a priori not resistant to damage and atmospheric and physical stress. To this we must add the low culture of production and the quality of components, for quite objective reasons, worked women and children. For these reasons, there were rather high non-combat losses of equipment, and of pilots too. Therefore, your sarcasm is not appropriate.
  • Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 4 February 2021 17: 35
    +1
    I have not the slightest doubt that almost all the victories of the Luftwaffe belong to the greatest ass of all times and peoples - Joseph Goebbels.
  • Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp 4 February 2021 18: 07
    -1
    Quote: mat-vey
    The highest monetary awards were introduced in 1943 in the Navy for the sinking of enemy ships. They depended on the position and rank of the participant in a successful operation. So, for example, the size of the monetary awards for the crew who sank an enemy battleship were as follows: the commander of the ship - 25 thousand rubles, senior and middle officers - 5 thousand rubles each, junior officers - 1 thousand rubles each, sailors - 500 rubles each. to each.

    This is the most convenient bonus, you still find this battleship from the Germans.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 4 February 2021 19: 14
    -4
    You can start with the fact that we and the Germans ... Somewhat different criteria - the Germans were counted "victory". Moreover, often - from the words of the wingmen, for example, Well, I shot at someone, someone started smoking and nodded - tyk ... Well, draw absutzbalken ... And do not care, maybe he shot down the flame and flew to the airfield, victory. And with us, since the enemy slammed into enemy territory - there is no confirmation from the ground, so you did not shoot down anyone.
    Well, there was, for example, in North Africa a link of "experts" ... We flew out. they shot the ammunition in the sand, on their return they reported how much they had shot down, they hung themselves up at the very least. and when they were discovered, they were simply scattered among different squadrons - and even fake awards were not taken away from them.
  • alpamys
    alpamys 4 February 2021 20: 51
    -4
    and why doubts, because in the films we compare where the Germans are shown as loshars? but they reached Moscow in six months and had to push back to the borders of the USSR for three years. And about the capture of Belgrade with a garrison of XNUMX defenders was captured by only seven SS soldiers, did anyone hear?
    1. Cowbra
      Cowbra 4 February 2021 23: 12
      -5
      You know, if I suddenly hit Michael Tyson in the cheekbone ... Maybe there won't be a knockout. but it will not come to itself immediately. The blow was
      a) Sudden
      b) It was applied, hmm ... Even in terms of numbers, it was a superior enemy, there is all of Europe. once again - and everyone is against us.
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 5 February 2021 02: 00
        -6
        Quote: Cowbra
        You know, if I suddenly hit Michael Tyson in the cheekbone ... Maybe there won't be a knockout. but it will not come to itself immediately. The blow was
        a) Sudden
        b) It was applied, hmm ... Even in terms of numbers, it was a superior enemy, there is all of Europe. once again - and everyone is against us.

        about suddenness, only fools believe, a good excuse, but what about the songs "if tomorrow is a war if tomorrow is a campaign"? Winter Finnish is not a lesson?
        and in the course that the Germans did not even guard the prisoners, there are a lot of German chronicles on YouTube right now where the prisoners just sit in heaps in the field unprotected or wander around the city captured by the Germans without any protection, but the locals were generally released home?
        and here is a link for you where the Soviet soldiers in the Crimea, the Germans did not even take away their weapons.
        https://cont.ws/@Colonel-Cassad/1844099
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 5 February 2021 02: 56
          0
          You lie without batting an eye, the policemen in the service of the Germans are no longer Red Army soldiers.
        2. Cowbra
          Cowbra 5 February 2021 03: 01
          0
          You have heaped everything into a heap. Well, for example, in Crimea, weapons were not taken away from - oops! The Crimean Tatars, and they almost all poured out their boots to the Reich to lick. Prisoners, in heaps ... Oh, tell me this for humanism - I wonder if you can understand what I'm laughing at?

          And so - all lies, and this is a production
    2. illuminat
      illuminat 5 February 2021 16: 06
      -1
      Quote: alpamys
      But they reached Moscow in six months and had to press back to the borders of the USSR for three years.

      So this is just easy to explain. If the Germans demobilized the army after the battle for Moscow, the units were sent to their places of permanent deployment, and only border guards were left on the line of contact. So that everything is "honest". Then we would see how quickly our territory will be recaptured. Maybe they could have done it faster than the Germans, the Matrosovs and Gastello they did not and did not have.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 5 February 2021 00: 51
    +1
    Quote: mr.ZinGer
    on the eastern front working height up to 5000

    the b-17 had secret American sights. they made it possible to throw exactly at altitudes up to 4.5 km.
    For comparison, our SB gave more or less accurate readings at 1200 meters.
    Therefore, B-17s were often reduced to about 5 km before bombing.
    I am writing about, because they could creep vertically for a kilometer.
    1. illuminat
      illuminat 5 February 2021 16: 44
      +1
      Quote: yehat2
      Therefore, B-17s were often reduced to about 5 km before bombing.
      I am writing about, because they could creep vertically for a kilometer.
      I don't know where you got this from. The average (I hope you understand what is the average) drop height for the entire war was 8 for 6400A, and 15 for 6200A. If, according to you, someone dropped to 5000, then the same number of cars climbed almost 8000. Which is unlikely. Most likely, you, as always, heard something somewhere, but did not understand so well.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 5 February 2021 02: 52
    0
    Now there is a video shooting.
    It is the first, main proof of target hitting.
    Caliber hits, KAB hits and Krasnopols.
    Then there was a movie shooting, synchronized with
    by pressing the trigger. After the flights in the evenings, the films were run before
    the personnel of the squadrons for practicing tactics mainly.
    And, at the same time, to count downed.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 5 February 2021 15: 06
      +2
      "then" not all aircraft were equipped with photographic equipment to record the results of firing.
      the same Kozhedub on the la-7 had an essentially exclusive camera, on which he filmed the interception over Berlin.
      And this was rare for anyone.
      It is worth remembering that there was not even enough weapons and radios for the fighters, not to mention the delights.
      And the Red Army in general experienced a deficit everywhere - even with parachutes for pilots and their uniforms, maps, warm clothes, glasses, etc.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 5 February 2021 07: 31
    +2
    In the 90s, this was said about the great achievements of German pilots. I remember how one employee told me about this with a breath. I told him that maybe there was a count of downed planes that did not take off. He was very offended.
  • iouris
    iouris 5 February 2021 11: 34
    +1
    Again: twenty-five. The German aces lost the war, were captured and worked on the construction sites of communism (and capitalism).
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 5 February 2021 12: 26
    0
    Quote: novel xnumx
    it's Hartman! even captured, but escaped

    And then he fought, which is the worst war crime under the conventions. Only for this he could have been shot.
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 February 2021 16: 11
      +2
      There is no such thing in any convention
      He ran away, and was not released on parole
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 5 February 2021 13: 15
    +1
    I can't understand who and why made heroes like Olympic champions or heroes of the Trojan War out of these "aces". The value of all aces for the course and outcome of the war in the air is insignificant, but for the war as a whole it is irreplaceable.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov
      Vladimir Mashkov 5 February 2021 17: 59
      0
      Quote: Kostadinov
      I can't understand who and why made heroes like Olympic champions or heroes of the Trojan War out of these "aces". The value of all aces for the course and outcome of the war in the air is insignificant, but for the war as a whole it is irreplaceable.

      And so the West did! At first, a number of their historians wrote honestly the truth. And then their politicians came to their senses and began to demand to write that the German experts were the most wonderful warriors, and the Russian savage barbarians, worthless warriors, simply filled up the corpses of the most beautiful Germans, all the German women were raped and accidentally defeated with Western help. And today they generally write that the Second World War was muddied and organized by the USSR. This is a two-faced Western "policy"!
  • konstantinos kontogiannidis
    konstantinos kontogiannidis 5 February 2021 14: 03
    0
    Looks like they were guided by the fact that the winners are not judged! It is a pity that not everyone was mixed with earth!
  • yehat2
    yehat2 5 February 2021 15: 10
    +1
    Quote: Kostadinov
    but for the war as a whole, irreplaceable

    I can not agree.
    Guderian says in his memoirs that even the regular support of one flight of bf-109E (the bombers in his area were taken away in general) helped them a lot.
    German aces often hunted alone, taking control of one sector, often keeping watch over Soviet aircraft engaged in reconnaissance and other important functions. The shooting down of one such pilot for a month or two sharply complicated the position of the Germans in the area.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 5 February 2021 15: 25
    -3
    kat
    Quote: yehat2
    Guderian says in his memoirs that even the regular support of one flight of bf-109E (the bombers in his area were taken away in general) helped them a lot.


    So they were taken to break through the Western Front in early October. There the bombers simply suppressed our defenses, the personnel divisions, as it were ambush, remained in the forests, since any of their movement was blocked by air raids, and the divisions of the people's militia located in the directions of the main strikes, i.e. on the roads were simply swept away. All German aviation of the Center group was concentrated on a breakthrough to Moscow on a narrow sector of the front. And our fighter aviation was evenly distributed along the fronts. No tactics would have helped Konev, Lukin, Rokossovsky and Budyonny to stop the German armada.
  • tank66
    tank66 5 February 2021 16: 17
    +1
    Che-that I just remembered the book "The Adventures of Haji Baba from Isfahan"
    the place where the Persians, after receiving the Lyuli near Tiflis, write to the Shah ..
    Now it is we who desperately need victory; but - do you understand? - a brilliant, bloody victory.
    - How many was the enemy? Mirza asked, addressing me.
    - An awful lot! Without an account! - I answered boldly.
    - I know how much, - said the vizier, - write: fifty thousand.
    - How many were killed? Mirza asked again, looking at me and him.
    “Write: from ten to fifteen thousand,” he said, “these papers will go a long way: why feel sorry for the giaours? Shah kills people only in tens of thousands. Is he worse than Rustam or Afrasiyab? By the grace of the prophet, our Kings of kings are such bloodsheds, laguars, lion-eaters, which have never happened: however, it cannot be otherwise, in order to keep the people in obedience and instill fear in outsiders. Well, is that ready?
    “Ready, for the benefit of the service of your presence,” answered Mirza. - Your servant wrote that the unfaithful dogs called moskou (may Allah cast them down into the deepest compartment of hell) appeared on the border of the land of Iran, fifty thousand pigs in number, with cannons resembling snakes; but as soon as the invincible, ever-victorious armies of the King of Kings, the Refuge of the World, the Eradicator of the Thorn of Unbelief, struck their hordes, then from ten to fifteen thousand of these accursed, their unclean souls instantly erupted, and the champions of the faith of the last prophet seized such a myriad of captives that slaves suddenly dropped by five hundred to a hundred in all the bazaars of the East.

    - May Allah be praised! Great, amazing! - exclaimed the vizier. - That's what ours are! Where will they write so eloquently as in Persia! You, mirza, compose no worse than a nightingale. Although this is not all true, but, according to the inexplicable prosperity of our shah, it must be so, and it will still be: now, or after, it is all the same. The truth is good when it is useful; but the lie is not bad, if by the way.

    - Sure! - said Mirza, kneeling and writing his composition in his hands. - Saadi himself says: "A lie spoken with good intention, the salutary truth that sows strife"
    1. Avior
      Avior 5 February 2021 20: 54
      +1
      An old tradition of all military personnel on all fronts.
      As the great Russian commander said
      "Why should you feel sorry for them, bastard, write more!"

      smile
  • yehat2
    yehat2 5 February 2021 16: 51
    +1
    Quote: illuminat
    Most likely, you, as always, heard something somewhere, but did not understand so well.

    even in films about fortresses, amers have a moment when they come down before the bombing.
    They did not go down only when they worked on the squares in large groups at the end of the war.
    And when the raids were made by 20-30 cars, it was necessary to throw at least something to cover an important object. This was especially true of smaller bombers b-17, for example b-25.
    The same applies to bridges - they were definitely not bombed from high heights.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 5 February 2021 17: 12
    -3
    Another holivar. On professional sites, it has been discussed many times.
    If it's easier! Until the moment of the massive bombing of Germany, the Deutsches could have won the aces on the eastern front. And yet they could in a turning point of the situation, even to a lesser extent on the front sector. From the middle of 43 years on the eastern front, in fact, there were single squadrons of aces. And basically they trained mololayers, which were to beat the fortress and Lancaster!
    The Eastern Front was considered a rest for the aces and Hartman was a coward! For he refused to beat the fortress, but remained by the decision of the Fuehrer in the east, to engage in free hunting!
    The absence of the German Air Force after Prokhorovka is explained not by knocking out the aces and units of the Luftwaffe!
    They were thrown over.
  • ZIS
    ZIS 7 February 2021 18: 49
    +1
    For the frequent photo-machine gun, one can see the shelling, but whether the plane was shot down, or the pilot coped with it and took the hit car, it is not clear, again, how critical were the attacks, did he leave the shelling and continued the battle? Full of memories of our pilots, "flashed" the plane or wing, the tail continued the fight ... Shot down!
  • tezey
    tezey 8 February 2021 14: 58
    0
    The Germans counted not the number of reliably destroyed enemy aircraft, but victories. The number of victories for the German pilot does not match the number of aircraft shot down. Two victories were counted for a twin-engine aircraft, and four for a four-engine aircraft. A damaged plane, even if it flew to its base, is still a victory. Well, the postscripts. The Germans did not have the practice of confirming the fall of a downed plane by the infantry, but we did. So the aces turned out who shot down 300 planes, sorry won 300 victories.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 8 February 2021 18: 35
    0
    Quote: yehat2
    Quote: Kostadinov
    but for the war as a whole, irreplaceable

    I can not agree.
    Guderian says in his memoirs that even the regular support of one flight of bf-109E (the bombers in his area were taken away in general) helped them a lot.
    German aces often hunted alone, taking control of one sector, often keeping watch over Soviet aircraft engaged in reconnaissance and other important functions. The shooting down of one such pilot for a month or two sharply complicated the position of the Germans in the area.

    1. In addition to Guderian's memoirs, there is good research and statistics on the success of aviation in the East and West and in Korea, so you can trust the memoirs or those who examined the achievements of aviation on the battlefield. The contribution of aviation to victory on the ground is approximately 5%.
    2. The so-called Asya never controlled any sectors, but were mainly engaged in finishing off already damaged and lagging aircraft. In general, of all the losses of aviation, no more than 25% were shot down by enemy fighters, and no more than 20% of them were shot down by the Asya. The bringing of aces in the war in the air is not more than 5%. Or the total profit of aces in the war as a whole is 5 percent out of 5 percent.
  • kon-anatol
    kon-anatol 17 February 2021 23: 13
    0
    Actually, there is some truth in this!
    1. A German pilot got to the front only after 250 hours of flying time, while in our country a pilot got to the front with 13-15 hours of flying time - with such a flying time even takeoff and landing is difficult to master! Therefore, after 4-5 sorties, up to 80 PERCENT of the pilots were lost!
    2. Throughout the war, the Germans flew the Me109! We flew in the cars of Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Lavochkin and in cars supplied under Lend-Lease - and this needs to be retrained for both the flight and technical personnel! In addition, if the car did not even go astray, but only was damaged, it could not be serviced at the nearest airfield. And yet - at the beginning of the war, our planes HAD NO RACES AT ALL!
  • Clear
    Clear 19 February 2021 09: 37
    +5
    Quote: Zug
    In vain. I’m trying to teach you, the mentally handicapped, at least something, but you’re kobenitsya. Although .... You should pump margarine into the bosoms to start a new one if the old rotten stuff. mercy ..

    What was required of you to prove.
  • Nikita Maximov
    Nikita Maximov April 3 2021 10: 30
    0
    Not a great specialist in the history of military aviation, but I had to look for figures on the losses of the German 1st Air Fleet of the Luftwaffe and the 3rd Air Army of the Red Army in July 1944. Pilots of the German 54th fighter squadron in the sector of the 1st Baltic Front in July 1944 declared 58 victories over Soviet fighters (and 53 other destroyed aircraft: Il-2, Pe-2, Tu-2), recognizing the loss of 21 of their FV-190 aircraft. Soviet aviators: about 147 - FV-190 of the enemy and 48 of their own. Does anyone have other numbers?
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 4 2021 03: 00
    0
    Counting downed planes is bullshit. The effectiveness of aviation is assessed not by the number of shot down frags, but by the effectiveness of the actions of ground forces. :)
    ... During the Byelorussian Operation, Soviet aviation brought German arty positions to the Ipen, thwarted the transfer of reinforcements, and bombed out the retreating German troops. Well, like, I arranged for the Germans "1941 the other way around."
    ... In the USSR, only 2 tons of IL-35 were produced. The actions of these planes will also be evaluated by the number of German planes shot down by them? :)
    ... And the "victories" of Hartman and Rudel have already been sorted out. They concluded that they were direct descendants of the first German ace Baron Von Munchausen.
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 4 2021 03: 29
    0
    Quote: Ryazanets87
    Why do you think there have never been more than 5% of the total number of pilots?


    That's why ordinary pilots don't live long. 6)
  • War in the air without myths
    War in the air without myths April 6 2021 02: 26
    -2
    The article was written by an uneducated person who does not understand anything in this topic. Yes, it cannot even be called an article. There are no particular problems in verifying official accounts. See German claims and see Soviet losses. All this is there. And you are convinced that the Germans' accounts are somewhat overestimated, but still "countless". Then look at the accounts of Soviet pilots and German losses. And you are convinced that the bills of Soviet pilots are simply overstated by an unimaginable number of times. And you no longer read such pseudo authors who are trying to make you ignorant. PYS: And to everyone who now wants to object to me in some traditional absurd spirit, I propose to jointly, step by step together, make calculations.
  • Valery Kh
    Valery Kh April 16 2021 11: 45
    0
    Doubting gentlemen! But what about the court's decision, which believed Hartman and gave him 25 years?
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 26 2021 11: 55
    0
    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
    Not all of them, of course. But most of it is still yes, more.

    Not a fact .... And again, what is considered a "combat mission"? Departure for a free hunt, is it when it cracked from behind a cloud and quickly washed away, or, for example, escorting stormtroopers followed by a "dog dump"? Yes, a pilot of that time on those planes would not make more than two or three sorties. Will die from the load. At least pump him with pervetin up to the tonsils.
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 26 2021 12: 01
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Then there was a movie shooting, synchronized with
    by pressing the trigger.

    So what? Do you propose to press the trigger until the very moment, until the enemy's plane crashes into the ground? ... The air battle will last for a moment. It is not always possible to understand from the tape whether there were hits on the plane, and even more so, it is not always possible to understand whether these hits were fatal for the plane, or if it landed at its own airfield, where it was patched up by technicians after a few minutes ...
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 26 2021 12: 07
    0
    Quote: obratov
    This is ... a very topical investigation! We cannot bury our soldiers for 75 years (the range is from 7 to 52 million dead ... somewhere like that), but we confidently talk about the planes shot down by the Germans!


    What kind of "friends" are they? What country do you live in? :)
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel April 26 2021 12: 12
    0
    Quote: War in the air without myths
    See German claims and see Soviet losses. All this is there. And you are convinced that the Germans' accounts are somewhat overestimated, but still "countless". Then look at the accounts of Soviet pilots and German losses. And you are convinced that the bills of Soviet pilots are simply overstated by an unimaginable number of times.

    M-dya? And where can I look at these accounts? In the newspaper "Shlyakh Peremogi" :)
    Well, here's about the Hartman account:
    https://warspot.ru/3125-hartman-nad-yassami-fantazii-v-pogone-za-mechami

    And this is about Rudel:
    https://warspot.ru/13416-trinadtsat-tankov-za-odnu-nogu
    P.S. And don't pretend to be a guru. You might think that you looked at all the applications. :)))