Military Review

Thunderstorm over the ocean. How the battleship Yamato was sunk

231
Thunderstorm over the ocean. How the battleship Yamato was sunk

Perfect Storm



In the spring of 1945, a rare phenomenon was observed in the northwestern part of the Philippine Sea. Thunderstorm front 50 miles wide, roaring the air and sea aviation motors.

The approach of this thunderstorm was not reported in the weather reports. The phenomenon had a technogenic origin and was called "Task Force 58". In the original - Task Force (TF) 58 or "Teffi 58".

The connection had a variable index. As part of the 3rd fleet it was designated OS 38 and was under the command of Admiral Halsey. As part of the 5th Fleet, the designation OS 58 was used, Admiral Mitscher became the commander.

The uncertainty principle of Compound 58 was that it was undoubtedly real. But there was no material evidence of this.

No regular naval personnel, no permanent command, no area of ​​responsibility, no stable designation. Only the crackle of interference on the radio and flashes somewhere on the horizon.

OS 58 was a local compaction of combat matter. The selected square, where the best of the combat-ready ships rushed, following the directions of the arrows on the tactical maps of the admirals.

On the night of April 6-7, the storm in the Philippine Sea intensified to the highest category. In one place 11 aircraft carrier groups converged at a time, under the cover of 8 battleships and battle cruisers of the most advanced projects - Iowa, Alaska, South Dakot, numerous Cleveland-class cruisers, heavy cruisers of new and old types and several dozen destroyers ...


Destroyers from the "Task Force". Fragment of the list.

The destroyers were contemptuously called "cans", they were considered consumables. They were placed in pickets in the most dangerous directions in such a way that single ships would certainly attract the attention of the kamikaze. The "false target" was supposed to warn with its death about the approach of the enemy. And the order to enroll in the "radar patrol" was akin to a death sentence.

Lame legs were not kept in OS 58 either. All damaged ships were on their way to the forward repair base in Ulithi Atoll. And the most difficult - in the deep rear, in Pearl Harbor and on the west coast of the United States. In exchange for the retired units, Admiral Mitscher ordered new ones - in double the number. Because of this policy, the connection grew continuously, reaching completely indecent dimensions.

The enemy was not going to surrender


By the 45th year, Japan practically did not have its own fleet. But there was an "asymmetric response" that made an impression on the enemy. The prototype of modern anti-ship missiles: a plane filled with explosives with the most reliable and trouble-free guidance system - a living person.

At first, the Japanese tactics looked convincing. By the end of March, the aircraft carriers Franklin, Wasp and Enterprise were burned. An additional Essex-class aircraft carrier was disabled during a night air raid on Ulithi Atoll. The number of destroyed destroyers went to dozens.


The damage to the "Franklin" was so great that it never returned to service

With such skill and courage, the kamikaze could burn to the ground any fleet in the world. But here, contrary to expectations, the enemy's forces did not diminish in the least. And the Japanese began to run out of planes.

The burned out "Franklin", "Wasp" and "Enterprise" under the escort of cruisers and destroyers left the combat zone. And their place was taken by Hornet, Bennington, Bella Wood, San Jacinto, Essex, Bunker Hill, Hancock, Langley, Intrepid, Yorktown and Bataan ...

“There are two of them - there are eight of us. Before the fight
Not ours, but we will play! "

AUG, led by the aircraft carrier Randolph, was urgently thrown to the aid of the American compound. This ship was returning to the combat zone after refurbishment caused by a meeting with the kamikaze.

In this state, on the morning of April 7, Task Force 58 was greeted with news of the discovery of a detachment of Japanese ships, which (contrary to common sense) were advancing towards Okinawa.

386 planes took off ...

Абсурд


More aircraft were involved in the sinking of the Yamato than in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Another example can be cited: Admiral Mitscher had more aircraft at his disposal than in Army Group Center in June 41.

How did you manage to collect 10+ aircraft carriers in one square and maintain their number at the same level, compensating for daily losses?


At least seven of the members of the compound were first-rank units, capable of carrying 90 aircraft each.

Seven heavy aircraft carriers can hardly be history the Japanese fleet. At the same time, the Japanese had a maximum of four such ships in combat.

The fleets of most countries could not even count on a pair of AB. Modeling enthusiasts are still discussing the appearance and possible use of the unfinished Italian aircraft carrier Aquila or the German Graf Zepellin. But when it comes to the sinking of the Yamato, the planes taking off from eleven aircraft carriers are perceived as the most common occurrence.

The composition of OS 58 was inadequate. It looked like a caricature against the background of the remnants of the imperial fleet, which miraculously survived until 1945. And each element of the Connection raised a perplexed question - why?


A dozen cruisers are on the right abeam. A couple dozen more - a rear reserve, in case of replenishment of losses, ensuring the rotation of the ship composition and rest of the crews. It is worth noting that the American enemy went through the war, having in stock only 10 cruisers with a displacement of 10+ thousand tons.

Someone may reproach the author for praising OS 58. But this is not true.

All comparisons were made for a single purpose. Show how unusual the situation was on the morning of April 7, 1945.

Out of respect for the Japanese sailors who chose to die with their ship, we will not use the word beating. It was a real brutal fight. The last fight "Yamato", which had an obvious result.

There is not much to analyze there. Everyone knows how to win with a 10-fold superiority even without the Americans.

Ingenious naval commander


Any mistake that, from the point of view of the navies of other countries, could lead to the disruption of the operation, for Admiral Mitscher meant nothing.

The command understood that some of the air groups would be lost and would not be able to reach the target. In reality, this is what happened - almost 50 planes passed the Yamato. The Americans provided for such an option and solved the problem in the simplest and most affordable way. Allocating nearly four hundred aircraft to strike. Thus, it was achieved complete confidencethat the required number of squadrons can gather over the target.

Everything turned out so smoothly because the Yamato was not drowned on the last pennies.


OS 58 forces have been duplicated multiple times. This allowed the command to decide all tasks at once, without prioritization. There was enough strength for everything. There was no risk of falling into a situation between Scylla and Charybdis.

While one group was sinking the Yamato, an even larger air force was waiting in the wings on the decks of the ships. Hundreds of aircraft were left in case of a threat from any other direction.

And the enemy was not long in coming: that morning, the kamikaze struck another attack on the ships of OS 58. The aircraft carrier Hancock suffered the most - a suicide bomber rammed the aircraft on the deck, which caused an explosion and death of 62 crew members. Due to a fire on the flight deck, the aircraft from the Hancock, raised to fight the Yamato, were forced upon their return land on water or to other ships of the union.

Plus or minus one aircraft carrier meant nothing to OS 58. All risks were insured.

In the event of a hypothetical breakthrough by Japanese surface ships into the area where aircraft carriers were located, significant linear forces were allocated - more than at any time in history. Against submarines - endless lines of PLO. To control the perimeter - the destroyers of the radar patrol. Relay aircraft lifted into the air provided stable communication with squadrons sent 400 km away to sink the Japanese battleship.

All this allowed the command of OS 58 not to be distracted by trifles and focus on the main task - to bring the dead head of the Yamato.

Air army over the sea


Of course, many believe that "airplanes" appeared over the sea out of nowhere. But the paradox was not only in the number of squadrons and floating airfields.

Aviation issues do not quite correspond to the naval theme. Still, a couple of notes should be made about

"Small and cheap planes that sank such a huge and clumsy battleship."

The planes that sunk the Yamato were markedly different from the German Stukas that bombed Kronstadt. Just like they were different from the Japanese Keith and Zero attacking Pearl Harbor.

At that time, the target was in the East China Sea, at a distance of more than 400 km from the combat maneuvering area of ​​OS 58. A point, moving target, with negligible dimensions against the background of the surrounding seas. In the presence of clouds with a height of the lower edge of 500 m, the planes could sweep over the sea all day without finding anything.

During the attack, means were used, the description of which sounds unusual in the context of the events of the Second World War.

The strike teams were led by command aircraft equipped with surface surveillance radars. By the end of the war, AN / APS-4 stations appeared in service with naval aviation. Suspended container with radar (in place of a standard bomb rack) and equipment for the operator's workplace. A simplified version of the AN / APS-5 was installed on single-seat fighters.



The presence of overhead radars explains the stories of how planes approaching at high altitude "dived" into the clouds and miraculously found the Yamato right in front of them.

There were not many dive bombers "Helldiver" in the grouping - only 75 pieces. Other aircraft were used to deliver missile and bomb attacks: 180 Corsair and Hellcat fighters. With a payload - like two Il-2 attack aircraft.

A special role in the sinking of the Yamato was assigned to the Avenger torpedo bombers (131 units). Also not biplanes made of plywood. In terms of normal take-off weight, Avenger was 1,7 times heavier than its closest competitor, the Japanese B5N2 Keith.

It may seem strange, but even with such "advanced" target designation, radio compasses, suspended tanks and multichannel radio stations with voice control - almost 50 aircraft circled the sea and returned with nothing.

Only aircraft of the 45th level could complete the task under the indicated conditions. And only with the participation of hundreds of aircraft.

As for the Yamato, in addition to all the incredible events of that day, the Japanese had a chance to fight the aircraft of a new era.

Air defense issues


A universal shipborne weapon of 127 mm caliber had a consumption of 1 rounds per 127 shot down aircraft. This is the official US Navy data for 1. When most of the ships were provided with Mk.1944 directors to control anti-aircraft fire. A very perfect sighting system, in which the data from the radar stations was processed by an analog computer Ford Mk.37A, which weighed over a ton.

The fire from the 20 mm Oerlikon guns was apparently completely ineffective. 9 shots on one shot down plane means that the hit was accidental, and the fire from the MZA had, rather, a psychological effect.

In both cases, the numbers are very obvious. They show how great an achievement each anti-aircraft gunner was.

The Yamato formation included, in addition to the flagship, a light cruiser of the Agano class and eight destroyers. The basis of the ships' air defense was 127-mm universal guns and numerous anti-aircraft guns of 25 mm caliber.

The Japanese 127-mm gun used unitary rounds, in contrast to the American 5`` / 38 gun, which used separate-case ammunition. Despite this, both systems showed the same rate of fire. The American gun differed from the Japanese by better ballistics and more effective guidance drives (specific numbers depend on the type of installation, one-two-gun, one or another modification).


127 mm universal gun "Type 89", belonging to the cruiser "Maya"

The differences in fire control were really significant. But given the magnitude of the disaster, the lack of the Japanese supercomputer Ford Mk.1A can be neglected. The Americans had to spend 1 rounds on the downed plane, the Japanese - not less, but rather much more. Any such figures clearly indicate the unwillingness of the naval air defense of the 127s to resist massive air raids.

One could scrupulously calculate the number of 5 '' guns on Japanese ships and estimate how much effort and time was spent on the destruction of each of the 12 aircraft shot down in that battle. But we will leave this occupation to those who are unable to accept the obvious.

If we abstract from the last campaign "Yamato", then at the time of entry into service (1941) battleships of this type had a decent air defense system, at the level of other representatives of their class. 12 five-inch guns and three dozen small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery (MZA) barrels.

There is no need to talk about the superiority or critical lag of the air defense of Japanese ships. All battleships of that period (equally) had their merits and ridiculous disadvantages. For example, the German Bismarck received excellent stabilized platforms, for which no automatic anti-aircraft guns were created.

Over the next years, the Yamato air defense system underwent 4 successive upgrades, during which six onboard anti-mine caliber towers (155 mm) were replaced with six twin universal caliber installations. The number of five-inch guns increased to 24 units, which made the Yamato one of the leaders in this respect among other ships.


According to the initial design, the composition of the MZA included eight units with built-in 25 mm Type 96 assault rifles. Japanese anti-aircraft guns are mercilessly criticized for a strange set of fighting qualities, in which they took the worst from the Erlikon (weak ammunition, short firing range) and Bofors (significant weight of the installation and low rate of fire).

Useless machines


The 20 mm Oerlikon was, of course, a waste of space on the Allied ships: its aiming range (1000 yards) was less than the drop range of aircraft torpedoes. In this sense, the Japanese Type 96 assault rifle looked more presentable: an aiming range of 3000 meters and a twice as heavy shell.

In theory, this made it possible to destroy aircraft before they reached the range of use. weapons... The installations themselves had a good firing angle diagram and were covered with shrouds to protect the crews from splashing water.
All were spoiling weak targeting drives and ammunition supply from magazines containing only 15 rounds. The rate of fire of the Japanese Type 96s was several times lower than the Oerlikons, which clearly did not improve their effectiveness.

The number of machine guns on the Yamato was constantly increasing, reaching 152 barrels by the end of the war. This figure does not mean anything. Taking into account all the shortcomings of the Type 96 guns and the known “successes” of systems of a similar purpose (Oerlikon assault rifles), the MZA fire threatened only balloons.

It is possible to dispute this statement, but the statistical data on the consumption of 9 thousand projectiles per one shot down plane lead to precisely such conclusions.

It is better to simply keep silent about the results of the use of anti-aircraft ammunition of 460 mm caliber or anti-aircraft machine guns.

For obvious reasons, the Japanese could not agree with Chrysler on mass deliveries of 40-mm Bofors assault rifles. Japan did not create its own automatic machines for a similar purpose. Military-technical cooperation with the Germans also yielded nothing. Kriegsmarine sailors throughout the war were forced to fight off planes from semi-automatic antiaircraft gun 3.7 cm SK C / 30.

In theory, the appearance of "Bofors" with Mk.14 fire control devices could not dramatically increase air defense. The Americans recorded the consumption of 2 rounds per shot down plane. Ten minutes of continuous firing from coaxial 364-mm guns! Even if 40 installations can fire on one side, the question is - will the planes wait?

A massive strike increased the effectiveness of the attackers by disorganizing the defense. No matter how dense the barrage was, sooner or later the first bomb will fall on the deck. If the enemy continues to bring fresh squadrons into battle, then the work of air defense will become less and less effective, and attacks will become more effective. Until the ending comes.


At this point, the global conclusion about the superiority of aviation over clumsy ships should follow. But the story of Yamato tells a different story.

The emperor's random question about the fleet's involvement in the defense of Okinawa was seen as an accusation of cowardice. It was impossible to act otherwise. The sailors put out their last ships.

The squadron, which had more aircraft carriers than all the fleets of the world put together, easily replenished its combat account.

When OS 58 was not nearby, then naval battles developed according to completely different rules.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Yamato. Heavyweight fight
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  1. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 6 February 2021 05: 45
    +22
    "They piled up in a crowd, began to knit their hands,
    And then - everyone was amused "...
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 6 February 2021 06: 33
      +1
      Yeah ... got into the crowd, instead of hitting the enemy individually.
      1. Borik
        Borik 6 February 2021 13: 51
        +5
        They were sent to the slaughter and almost all died. In this campaign, they did not have more than one chance to inflict any damage on the Americans with their complete air supremacy.


        There is one complaint to the author of this article.
        six onboard anti-mine caliber towers (155 mm) were replaced with six twin universal caliber installations.


        How did he get such knowledge that the battleship had 6 anti-mine caliber towers (155mm) on the sides of the battleship. When there were only 4x3 155mm turrets on the entire battleship. Two stood diametrically in the bow and stern, and one on each side.
        1. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 6 February 2021 16: 57
          +10
          Quote: Borik
          They were sent to the slaughter and almost all died. In this campaign, they did not have more than one chance to inflict any damage on the Americans with their complete air supremacy.
          "Yamato" and "Musashi" had to be sent into battle at Pearl Harbor on November 7, 1941 - to finish off the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet located in Pearl Harbor.
          Then attack the Panama Canal - destroy it as much as possible and block its restoration as long as possible. One could even assume shelling of the ports of Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Seattle ... It was necessary to use the Yamato and Musashi (and possibly the completed Shinano) in time and on the spot. (according to the "Fourth Program" it was assumed 2 more battleships of the "Yamato" type №111, №797, according to the "Fifth Program" - 2 more reinforced "Yamato" (armor up to 460mm, 6 guns of 510mm) №798, №799)
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 17: 10
            +3
            Wow, how you dislike the Japanese.

            Fortunately for them, both ships entered service in the middle of 42, so there was no possibility even theoretically to destroy them according to your scenario.
            1. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 6 February 2021 17: 13
              +9
              Quote: Cherry Nine


              Fortunately for them, both ships entered service in the middle of 42, so there was no possibility even theoretically to destroy them according to your scenario.
              The Japanese samurai started the war "without forging a katana" - defeat is natural ...
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 17: 36
                +4
                Quote: cat Rusich
                Japanese samurai started the war "without forging a katana"

                The defeat, of course, is natural, but it has little to do with the date of the beginning of the war. Moreover, the Japanese did not choose this date - we read "Hall's ultimatum".
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 6 February 2021 17: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Moreover, the Japanese did not choose this date - we read "Hall's ultimatum".
                  Then the conversation comes down to thinking -...
                  Make 2 battleships of the Yamato class (which occasionally entered into battle) or build 10-20 and even more ships of a lighter class, having time before the beginning of the "approaching war" and use them in full at all theaters of operations where the need arises.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 20: 10
                    0
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    Make 2 battleships of the "Yamato" class (which occasionally entered the battle) or build 10-20 or even more ships of a lighter class

                    This has been discussed a hundred times by altistorians. Yes, replacing 3 Yamato with 30 Unryu and improving the pilot training system would be definitely a plus. No, in the 37th year, when the British ordered 5 new LCs, and the Americans 6 (both had 15 more old LCs), there were no alternatives to Yamato. With 10 old LCs against this, the Japanese do not agree to remain.
                  2. unknown
                    unknown 7 February 2021 06: 51
                    0
                    In full, the Japanese used only "battleships" of the "Congo" type.
                    The rest were saved for the alleged general linear battle.
            2. Proxima
              Proxima 6 February 2021 19: 43
              +3
              "Yamato" is not only the largest battleship in the history of shipbuilding, but also de facto largest kamikaze object... It was refueled at one end, and everyone on the ship was well aware that they had no way back. "Varyag" had at least some options, "Yamato" - NO.
              1. iskanderzp
                iskanderzp 6 February 2021 20: 34
                -3
                "Varyag" had options only in Doinikov's alternative ...
                1. Proxima
                  Proxima 7 February 2021 06: 54
                  0
                  Quote: iskanderzp
                  "Varyag" had options only in Doinikov's alternative ...

                  What kind of Doinikov ?! The Varyag had a chance to save the surviving crew of the cruiser without surrendering to the Japanese, which they did. Yamato did not have such an opportunity!
                2. unknown
                  unknown 7 February 2021 07: 02
                  0
                  The Varyag had options. Even with such a problematic CMU.
                  His opponent was the cruiser Asama, the first of a series of armored cruisers.
                  The cruiser was armored, but the armor was harvey, and of very poor quality.
                  Yes, and in terms of speed it was not a "cruiser". Maximum sustained speed -17 knots. The main caliber guns are loaded manually. Shells of the light, "colonial" type, weighing 93,5 kg. The loading of medium-caliber guns is manual. Projectile weight - 45 kg.
                  According to the results of the First World War, the Europeans came to the conclusion that even for a resident of Northern Europe, such a mass of a projectile is excessive. What can we say about the Japanese, who had a body weight less, on average, by 10-20 kg. Not from a good life, the Japanese switched to a caliber of 140 mm.
                  1. fone
                    fone 8 February 2021 00: 21
                    0
                    And what is this "colonial type of projectile"? The projectile weight for the 203/45 was 115kg.
          2. qQQQ
            qQQQ 6 February 2021 17: 47
            +6
            Quote: cat Rusich
            finish off the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet located in Pearl Harbor.

            Finishing off would have given the Japanese nothing; all American aircraft carriers mysteriously left in a couple of days. Most likely, even then literate people understood that aviation would win the war at sea. The battleships could not decide anything. Pearl Harbor was a decoy for America to go to war.
            1. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 6 February 2021 17: 55
              0
              Quote: qqqq
              Quote: cat Rusich
              finish off the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet located in Pearl Harbor.

              Finishing off would have given the Japanese nothing; all American aircraft carriers mysteriously left in a couple of days. Most likely, even then literate people understood that aviation would win the war at sea. The battleships could not decide anything. Pearl Harbor was a decoy for America to go to war.
              Japan could have invaded Hawaii when the US Navy was "knocked down" and the US Navy would have had to first liberate Pearl Harbor ...
              1. qQQQ
                qQQQ 6 February 2021 20: 51
                +3
                Quote: cat Rusich
                Japan could have invaded Hawaii when the US Navy was "knocked down" and the US Navy would have had to first liberate Pearl Harbor ...

                The question is whether Japan had the strength for such a ground operation, and strategically it did not decide anything, except that it would prolong the agony of the Japanese, which is too far from comparable industry and resources.
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 6 February 2021 23: 55
                  +1
                  Quote: qqqq
                  Quote: cat Rusich
                  Japan could have invaded Hawaii when the US Navy was "knocked down" and the US Navy would have had to first liberate Pearl Harbor ...

                  strategically, it did not decide anything, except that it would prolong the agony of the Japanese, which is too incomparable industry and resources.
                  Japan had the strength to seize the Philippines.
                  On June 4, 1942, Japan still had to attack the Midway Atoll. And there was an opportunity in November-December 1941 to capture as many base islands in the Pacific Ocean ... and the United States would have to "get to Japan" from a much greater distance.
                  1. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 7 February 2021 12: 35
                    +1
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    Japan had the strength to seize the Philippines.

                    You can count the distances and other "trifles" that all sorts of alternatives forget about ...
                  2. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 9 February 2021 18: 14
                    -2
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    On June 4, 1942, Japan still had to attack the Midway Atoll.

                    The purpose of the Midway operation was not to seize territory, but to lure out the US Pacific Fleet. Midway itself would be a suitcase for the Japanese without a handle - a couple of islands and a shallow harbor in the middle of nowhere, and even within the radius of the Liberators from Oahu.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 8 February 2021 15: 30
                -1
                Quote: cat Rusich
                Japan could have invaded Hawaii when the US Navy was "knocked down" and the US Navy would have had to first liberate Pearl Harbor ...

                I could. At the cost of abandoning the Philippines or Singapore and completely bleeding the deck squadrons.
                One airborne division is 40 transports and 10-12 tankers. In Hawaii, there are two infantry divisions of the US Army, one of them (24th Infantry Division) is one of the few interwar cadres (formed in 1921).
                Moreover, all of 1941 these divisions are not kicking coconuts, but preparing field defense and running on alert to the exercises. By December 1941, the degree of paranoia of the army had reached such an extent that groups in jeeps with machine guns were sent to patrol the coastal strip. Moreover, the machine guns themselves and their ammunition units migrated from the locked warehouses to the barracks (it was these products of John Mosesovich, quickly dragged by the calculations wherever possible, became the basis of the air defense of army bases on the "Day of Shame"). According to the recollections of the army, many of their colleagues took the beginning of the war rather calmly - worse than on permanent exercises, it will no longer be.
                So the Japanese will need at least three divisions. Or a hundred transports and two dozen tankers. Plus a cover group DESO.
                And most importantly, the closest point of replenishment of the ship's ammunition (and repair) is located on the Mariana or in the Metropolis. It was only in 1944 that the Yankees learned to reload the BC on the high seas, no more than 100 tons per day per ship. Midway is also not suitable - the lagoon for basing at least an MRT was deepened only in 1943.

                Aviation losses Kido Butai: the first blow cost Nagumo 55 aircraft shot down and decommissioned and 55 crew members irrevocably. Moreover, 2/3 of the losses occurred in the second wave, when the air defense of the ships began to wake up. And this is when the SUAO and supply are practically inoperative (boilers are not brought in, power supply from the shore is most often interrupted). And an idle army air defense (getting ammo and transporting guns to positions).
                And by 14-15: 00, the Island's air defense woke up completely: the army men fled to positions, the naval ones were powered by the ship's EIs.
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 8 February 2021 20: 10
                  0
                  Quote: Alexey RA

                  I could. At the cost of abandoning the Philippines or Singapore and completely bleeding the deck squadrons.
                  One airborne division is 40 transports and 10-12 tankers. In Hawaii, there are two infantry divisions of the US Army, one of them (24th Infantry Division) is one of the few interwar cadres (formed in 1921).
                  Moreover, all of 1941 these divisions are not kicking coconuts, but preparing field defense and running on alert to the exercises.
                  And most importantly, the closest point of replenishment of the ship's ammunition (and repair) is located on the Mariana or in the Metropolis. It was only in 1944 that the Yankees learned to reload the BC on the high seas, no more than 100 tons per day per ship. Midway is also not suitable - the lagoon for basing at least an MRT was deepened only in 1943.

                  Aviation losses Kido Butai: the first blow cost Nagumo 55 aircraft shot down and decommissioned and 55 crew members irrevocably. Moreover, 2/3 of the losses occurred in the second wave, when the air defense of the ships began to wake up. And this is when the SUAO and supply are practically inoperative (boilers are not brought in, power supply from the shore is most often interrupted). And an idle army air defense (getting ammo and transporting guns to positions).
                  And by 14-15: 00, the Island's air defense woke up completely: the army men fled to positions, the naval ones were powered by the ship's EIs.
                  I will not go into long arguments ...
                  According to your information, it turns out that the Japanese fleet could only fight with the "natives" ... then why did Japan "get involved in the war"? In the event that Japan seriously intended to Win - then without taking a base in the Hawaiian Islands it doesn't work even theoretically... As an example, the Germans would attack the USSR and stop right after Minsk, Kiev, without taking Tallinn, Odessa, without even crossing the Dnieper. Then leave the Philippines for "dessert", and Singapore "for the second" - "for the first" take the base "Pearl Lagoon" and dig in there, cutting off the United States from the Western Pacific Ocean. (Do not judge strictly the "sofa strategist")
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 9 February 2021 10: 43
                    -1
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    According to your information, it turns out that the Japanese fleet could only fight with the "natives" ... then why did Japan "get involved in the war"?

                    And after the oil embargo and Hull's note, she did not have much choice: either war, or slow dying, or massacre among the leadership. Its Japanese aggression in China skillfully painted themselves into a situation that several subsequent moves by the United States made a desperate.
                    Plus, the Japanese elite, apart from a few more or less adequate characters, did not understand what they would have to face. Yamamoto warned that the Americans would negotiate only if Japanese forces were at Washington - but he was not heard. As a result, the Japanese decided to try to apply devastating strategy - but to do it as crooked: against overseas territories of the country, which did not have any significant objects outside the Metropolis, but which had a powerful industrial and military planning relies on starvation strategy.
                    The Japanese practically fulfilled the goals of the first stage of the war. But for some reason, the Americans did not give up. smile
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    Winning is impossible even theoretically without taking the base in the Hawaiian Islands.

                    Winning when taking Oahu also fails - the IJN and the Japanese civilian fleet are not rubber.
                    Quote: cat Rusich
                    Then leave the Philippines for "dessert", and Singapore "for the second" - "for the first" take the base "Pearl Lagoon" and dig in there, cutting off the United States from the Western Pacific Ocean.

                    After landing on Oahu, DAVs 1, 2 and 5 remain without pilots. And the forces of the Atlantic fleet begin to play for the USA.
            2. igor novices
              igor novices 7 February 2021 18: 16
              0
              Historian Alexei Isaev on the surprise attack on the US Navy base Pearl Harbor
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeeHWilwrFQ
              Let me ask you: do you agree with this version of events?
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 17: 55
                0
                Quote: Igor Novikov
                Let me ask you: do you agree with this version of events?

                Here's a debriefing in 2 parts ...
                https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/41267.html
                https://sidorenko-vl.livejournal.com/41531.html

                Draw your own conclusions.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 22: 06
                  0
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  Draw your own conclusions.

                  Conclusion - it turns out that I always confuse Kolyadko and Sidorenko))))
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 9 February 2021 18: 11
              0
              Quote: qqqq
              Finishing off would not have given the Japanese anything; all American aircraft carriers mysteriously left in a couple of days.

              There is no mystery: both combat-ready aircraft of the Pacific Fleet USN worked by air transport - they delivered aircraft to forward bases. By the way, if the Japanese had delayed with flying for a few hours, they might well have found a "Big E" suitable for the base.
              Quote: qqqq
              Most likely, even then literate people realized that aviation would win the war at sea.

              "Literate people" then considered flat-deckers to be auxiliary ships, whose task was reconnaissance in the interests of the main forces - the line fleet. Plus counterintelligence - the search and destruction of the same enemy AB, engaged in intelligence. The second task of AB was to strike the shore.
              It's just that in WWII it didn't work out very well with linear battles - some were left without a linear fleet for two years, others hid their LCs in rear bases and in the second line. And the large linear battle expected before the war near the Mariana Islands did not happen due to the absence of the parties.
              But the AVs did what they had been taught before the war - the extermination of their own kind.
              Quote: qqqq
              Pearl Harbor was a decoy for America to enter the war.

              Not. The bait was the Philippines - they were strengthened by a teaspoon per hour, and the main provocations were to be in those waters. And MacArthur was sent there for better PR.
              Even in a nightmare, FDR could not have dreamed that the United States on the first day of the war would be left without the backbone of the Pacific Fleet.
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 10 March 2021 14: 31
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Not. The Philippines was the bait

                baits and provocations were in abundance, even the fuel embargo was far from the first.
                As for Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt, judging by a later analysis of the documentation, found out about the attack 2-3 days before the incident, but withheld the information.
                But he did not expect the scale of the blow - he thought it would be like in Cuba - 1 ship would explode and that's it.
          3. Metallurg_2
            Metallurg_2 6 February 2021 18: 16
            +1
            And if the Japs had Kirov airships ...
          4. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 7 February 2021 12: 32
            +2
            Quote: cat Rusich
            "Yamato" and "Musashi" were to be sent into battle at Pearl Harbor on November 7, 1941 .....

            As one friend of mine says: "Spit out the mushroom ..."
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 10 March 2021 14: 27
          0
          2 more were on the pier)))
      2. 210ox
        210ox 6 February 2021 15: 39
        +13
        They followed the ORDER. They knew that they would not Return alive, but they went. Such opponents must be respected.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 6 February 2021 14: 06
      +1
      it seemed the boy was not lying, but was still running, running ...
      so the Yapas were still fighting ..
      ..yes held the ice on the floor.
  2. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 6 February 2021 06: 24
    +3
    Vaughn is not a fist fight at the party.
    All means are good and no one will care anymore (except for specialists and historians) after the victory by what means it was obtained
    1. Santa Fe
      6 February 2021 07: 19
      +12
      There were no good tools, that's the catch. Only a pile of expensive weapons

      So no other country could fight at sea except the USA, model 45
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 6 February 2021 07: 26
        +2
        Quote: Santa Fe
        There were no good tools, that's the catch.

        Well, this is the case when they took the quantity.
        But quality also played a role
        1. Santa Fe
          6 February 2021 08: 17
          +6
          Money, money decides everything

          But even money is powerless against time. Yamato appeared in 41, and Hellkets and radar dive bombers in 1944
          The insane amount of forces to sink the Yamato / Musashi means that such ships could do everything at the beginning of the war, and they would have nothing for it. Three AVs under the midway - a parody of OS 58
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 6 February 2021 09: 53
            +12
            The insane force of suppression is because these forces were.
            The more firepower you throw at the enemy, the less losses and risks. If you have the ability to send 10 times more strength than you need, send it very profitable. You can calculate how much money was exchanged in this battle.
            The Japanese lost orders of magnitude more resources than the United States.
            1. Santa Fe
              6 February 2021 10: 09
              +9
              what exchange of money took place in this battle.

              A year later, most of the OS 58 ships were scrapped.

              I am not an expert on the Bretton Woods system, and I do not know how the dollar is printed. But such a policy of throwing money is beyond the power of any other state.

              And winning with 10x superiority is easy and simple
              1. Blackmokona
                Blackmokona 6 February 2021 10: 16
                +10
                1) Because the need for them has disappeared and the content has become useless.
                2) Because the USA is the most powerful country in terms of economy. Of course now they like to spit into the service sector which is huge in the USA. Only Hollywood, Microsoft, Google, Apple and other service providers bring huge real profits to the United States.
                3) It is difficult to achieve this 10-fold superiority. But each country chooses where to go. Into an eerie billionaire like Japan, or run into an economy like the United States.
                1. Santa Fe
                  6 February 2021 10: 30
                  +9
                  The need for these ships at the end of the war disappeared, and more and more of them were built every day. As if not noticing the obvious - the enemy is gone. The end of the war is near

                  It was very convenient to drown the Yamato in this situation. The question is what to do with these ships. And who even paid the bills for their construction

                  None of ordinary people know exactly how the dollar is printed. All theories are equally likely. But now the corona pandemic and again in the midst of the crisis, the Yankees have money out of nowhere and they start tossing it right and left.
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 6 February 2021 11: 30
                    +3
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    None of ordinary people know exactly how the dollar is printed. All theories are equally likely

                    you just need to carefully read the law on the FRS ... and you will understand everything, they are printed freely, this is the main American freedom
                    1. Santa Fe
                      6 February 2021 11: 37
                      +6
                      Yes you are a real wolf of Wall Street
                    2. Mikle2000
                      Mikle2000 6 February 2021 13: 59
                      +6
                      However, dollars do not turn into an empty piece of paper, they can be exchanged for oil, gold, machinery, wheat.
                      Yes, they are also prone to inflation, but if you look at how the price of the dollar and the ruble has changed over the past 50 years ...
                      1. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 6 February 2021 14: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Mikle2000
                        the price of the dollar and the ruble over the past 50 years

                        you like that in a bunch .... the country is already different with the ussr dollar was 40 kopecks as wait I remember .. but now what rubles are you talking about? The Central Bank of the Russian Federation obeys the IMF and the US Federal Reserve, the ruble is just a simulacrum of a few cents, it is not an independent currency and therefore its value is simply the result of manipulations by the Central Bank of the Russian Federation under the leadership of the Americans ... that is why they print dollars, and inflation from this we have ... the capitalization ratio (the indicator of inflation of the money market) is 70 in the USA, and in Russia 5, we have 4 more points left before the banana republic ...
                      2. unknown
                        unknown 7 February 2021 07: 12
                        +1
                        According to the latest McCdonald's index, the value of the ruble against the dollar is at least three times lower.
                        Our colonial government is happy with that.
                      3. Santa Fe
                        7 February 2021 10: 33
                        +2
                        "McCdonald's Index"

                        A strange comparison based on the fact that the same product should be the same everywhere ... Why would?

                        The McDonald's legend lives on because people love to hear that they are actually doing well.
                      4. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 7 February 2021 13: 36
                        +1
                        the cost of the goods is the materials spent on it, and the salary, why should American sea sand be 10 times more expensive than such sea sand lying on the coast of the Gulf of Finland? and the salary of an employee in the USA, for the same operations with the same degree of intelligence, why should it be 20 times more than a Russian or a Chinese?
                      5. Santa Fe
                        7 February 2021 20: 04
                        +2
                        the salary of an employee in the usa, for the same operations with the same degree of intelligence, why should it be 20 times more than a Russian or a Chinese?

                        She is really 20 times bigger

                        That's the whole absurdity of the Big Mac Index
                      6. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 8 February 2021 00: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        She is really 20 times bigger

                        That's the whole absurdity

                        And also that all the toilets are cleaner than in the Russian Federation, you can go there, they will give you a job there ... just the cleaning company needs workers
          2. Korax71
            Korax71 6 February 2021 14: 12
            +2
            only cash and only paper money can be issued. There is a table of monetary aggregates on the Fed's website, anyone can see how much they have printed dough. If you roughly estimate, then on average they print about 10% of cash or about 1% of the total money per year masses. the military budget is many times greater than this amount laughing
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 7 February 2021 13: 39
              0
              Quote: Korax71
              print about 10% of cash

              why do you think inflation does not apply to non-cash money? do they smell differently? you have a very big difference than paying in cash or about a card in a Pyaterochka store, and if you don't see the difference, then there is none
            2. Aag
              Aag 7 February 2021 17: 07
              +1
              Quote: vladimir1155
              Quote: Korax71
              print about 10% of cash

              why do you think inflation does not apply to non-cash money? do they smell differently? you have a very big difference than paying in cash or about a card in a Pyaterochka store, and if you don't see the difference, then there is none

              Why then are there those who "earn" on cash?
            3. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 8 February 2021 00: 04
              +1
              Quote: AAG
              Why then are there those who "earn" on cash?

              it has nothing to do with inflation, cashing is used for tax evasion, cash received from customers, or paid to someone, or withdrawn from the enterprise into the owner's pocket, is not carried out through accounting, called black cash,
    2. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 6 February 2021 12: 52
      +5
      Germany before this has already stomped on the rake that you offer here to the United States.
      She, too, is close to victory, the tanks are already near Moscow, to curtail projects, to transfer resources against Britain.
      Although it was right to act like the United States, until the victory is achieved, reap the full.
      1. Santa Fe
        6 February 2021 12: 59
        0
        It would be better if they reaped in Europe, in the Ardennes

        Since they wanted to fight
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 6 February 2021 13: 02
          +5
          So they reaped in the Ardennes. Nemtsov's offensive operation in Ardany ended in a deafening failure.
          At the same time, the chief of the German General Staff of the Ground Forces, Guderian, noted:

          “So, the offensive began on December 16, the 5th Panzer Army penetrated deep into the enemy's defenses. The leading tank formations of the ground forces - the 116th and 2nd tank divisions - went directly to the river. Maas. Individual units of the 2nd Panzer Division even reached the river. Rhine. The 6th Panzer Army did not have such a success. The accumulation of troops on narrow, icy mountain roads, delays in the introduction of the second echelon into battle in the sector of the 5th Panzer Army, and the insufficient use of initial success - all this led to the fact that the army lost the pace of the offensive - the most necessary condition for carrying out every major operation. In addition, the 7th Army ran into difficulties, as a result of which it was necessary to turn Manteuffel's tank units south to prevent a threat from the flank. After that, there could be no question of a major breakthrough. On December 22, it was necessary to admit the need to limit the purpose of the operation. On this day, a large-scale command would have to recall the expected offensive on the Eastern Front, the position of which depended on the timely completion of the largely already failed offensive on the Western Front. However, not only Hitler, but also the high command of the armed forces, and especially the headquarters of the operational leadership of the armed forces, in these fateful days thought only of the Western Front. The tragedy of our military command became even more evident after the failure of the offensive in the Ardennes, before the end of the war. On December 24, it was clear to every sane soldier that the offensive had finally failed. It was necessary to immediately shift all our efforts to the east, if it was not too late. From my headquarters, which was transferred to Maybachlager near Zossen, I closely followed the progress of the offensive in the west. In the interests of my people, I wished it to be a complete success. But when it became clear on December 23 that it was impossible to achieve major success, I decided to go to the Fuehrer's main headquarters and demand an end to the dangerous tension and the immediate transfer of all forces to the Eastern Front ... "
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 51
          +9
          Quote: BlackMokona
          in Ardan ended in a deafening failure.

          The offensive operation in the Ardennes turned Patton to the northeast, postponed the Allied Christmas offensive in the Rhineland by 2 months, and guaranteed the success of the Vistula-Oder operation with further geopolitical consequences in Yalta. She was phenomenally successful.

          For the USSR.
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 8 February 2021 15: 46
          -1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          The offensive operation in the Ardennes turned Patton to the northeast, postponed the Allied Christmas offensive in the Rhineland by 2 months, and guaranteed the success of the Vistula-Oder operation with further geopolitical consequences in Yalta.

          Plus the absence of serious problems on the outer face of the ring during the encirclement and capture of Budapest - because 6 TA SS licked their wounds and was late for "Konrad".
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          with further geopolitical consequences in Yalta.

          Is this about the famous move of the IVS with a statement about the "premature" start of the Vistula-Oder operation to help the Allies (despite the fact that it was actually delayed for 3-4 days - they were waiting for the weather to improve)? wink
        4. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 15: 55
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Plus the absence of serious problems on the outer face of the ring during the encirclement and capture of Budapest

          Yes, God loved the Soviet regime.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          This is about the famous move of the IVS with a statement about the "premature" start of the Vistula-Oder operation

          Not quite. Basically, purely in terms of geography. The presence of the Oder bridgehead and the absence of the Rhine bridgehead created a completely perverse picture of the balance of power. If the bourgeoisie had known that the bridge across the Elbe would appear 4 days before the start of the Berlin offensive, the conversation could well have gone differently.

          Or could not, there really is an altistory.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 February 2021 07: 17
    -1
    Germany did not have the resources to reap the full. Even with Europe crushed under itself.
    Yes, and it was not included in the plans of the "world government".
    There is an interesting theory that during that war, the United States, in alliance with the USSR, fought against Great Britain, which was allied with Nazi Germany.
    Great Britain was forced to change sides, but this did not help her. USA and USSR The British colonial empire was destroyed.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 7 February 2021 09: 33
      -1
      It was possible not to make a huge fleet of submarines and other useless development of the fleet. And invest these monstrous resources in tanks and other useful things
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 9 February 2021 18: 20
      -2
      Quote: BlackMokona
      It was possible not to make a huge fleet of submarines and other useless development of the fleet. And invest these monstrous resources in tanks and other useful things

      In this case, the Reich has no chance of winning. Without a naval blockade, Britain, fueled by the US, will not surrender 146%. And then the States enter the war - and the Reich will be covered with iron.
      And, by the way, if the Reich does not build a crowd of submarines, then the Allies do not need to build one and a half hundred escort AB, thousands of anti-submarine ships - from EME to submarine boats, and infrastructure for basing submarine forces on both shores of the Atlantic. And where will these equally monstrous resources be invested? wink
  • unknown
    unknown 7 February 2021 07: 09
    +1
    With the help of war, the United States solves its internal economic problems.
    War is loading of existing capacities. This is a decrease in unemployment.
    This is an increase in domestic consumption.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 February 2021 07: 10
    0
    Now they don't even print them. A computer keyboard is enough.
  • Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 9 February 2021 15: 54
    0
    Of course now they like to spit into the service sector which is huge in the USA

    She dominates the economy not only in the United States, if that.
    Taking China's economy as an example, it suddenly turns out that the service sector employs 44 percent of all employed Chinese citizens, while producing 51,6 percent of China's gross domestic product. Industry employs 29 percent of China's employed citizens and generates 40,5 percent of the country's gross domestic product. The remaining 27 percent of the labor force is in agriculture, which accounts for 7,9 percent of gross domestic product. (This means that a) currently in China there is still a fairly large percentage of people employed in agriculture of the archaic (primitive, based mainly on manual labor) type, b) as agriculture is mechanized, labor released from agriculture can be a resource for the extensive development of industry and services).
    In comparison, in the German economy, the service sector provides jobs for 78,6 percent of employed citizens, providing 68,6 percent of the gross domestic product. Industry employs 24,2 percent of Germany's employed citizens, generating 30,7 percent of the country's gross domestic product.
    What exactly about the United States of America - and there it should be borne in mind that the statistics adopted in this country (USA) takes into account a significant part of R&D not as part of industry (as is done, for example, in China), but as part of the service sector.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 6 February 2021 12: 35
    +2
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Yamato appeared in 41, and Hellkets and radar dive bombers in 1944
    It's just that no one knew then what to do with the enemy's radar.
    And the modernization of air defense did not advance close to the possibilities of countering a massive raid. That's all.
    The same Iowas were relevant after upgrades for a very long time.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 12: 52
    +7
    Quote: Santa Fe
    The insane amount of forces to sink the Yamato / Musashi means that such ships could do everything at the beginning of the war, and they would have nothing for it.

    Logic has never been Mr. Kaptsov's forte.

    The insane amount of force to sink the Yamato Musashi means that by the end of the war, the Americans have worked up an insane amount of force. As for the necessary and sufficient forces to sink the LK, then according to the pre-war estimates of the Japanese themselves, 18 torpers and the same number of dive bombers should be enough.

    The fate of compound Z has generally confirmed these calculations. The transgender sister ship Yamato - Sinao - had enough 4 torpedoes, however, boat, not aviation.
    Quote: Santa Fe
    The need for these ships at the end of the war disappeared, and more and more of them were built every day. As if not noticing the obvious - the enemy is gone. The end of the war is near

    No, not noticing. America took a long time to accelerate (the Essexes came to MOT only at the end of the 43rd) and slowed down just as long. The continuation of the war in 46 was considered very likely.

    Reasonable use of resources did not distinguish between Americans in general and those years in particular.

    But, frankly, they could afford it.
    1. Santa Fe
      7 February 2021 10: 45
      +1
      The fate of compound Z, on the whole, confirmed these calculations.

      And the fate of Ise and Nagato did not confirm
      The insane amount of force to sink the Yamato Musashi means that by the end of the war, the Americans have worked up an insane amount of force.

      Do you think that when reducing the air grouping, the number of hits remained the same

      How many planes were needed for 6 torpedo hits
      But, frankly, they could afford it.

      The only country that could allow such a war

      The success of the United States at sea is cited as an example, as if any fleet could just as easily sink the enemy with hundreds of aircraft. And then they draw conclusions about the advantages / disadvantages of ship classes

      For example, we were not at war with America. We fought with other countries, and the war at sea looked completely different for us. How different was the confrontation between Britain and Italy in the Mediterranean?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 7 February 2021 13: 43
        +1
        Quote: Santa Fe
        And the fate of Ise and Nagato did not confirm

        Nagato - You mean the case when Musashi was drowned? Ise - You mean the case when 4 aircraft carriers were sunk?
        Quote: Santa Fe
        How many planes were needed for 6 torpedo hits

        Comrade Phillips answers the question.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The success of the United States at sea is cited as an example, as if any fleet could just as easily sink the enemy with hundreds of aircraft. And then they draw conclusions about the advantages / disadvantages of ship classes

        I don’t know who draws such conclusions. The example of a TO war showed that if one side achieves air supremacy, then the other side in a naval war generally has no chances. In the Mediterranean Sea and in the Atlantic, such a situation did not develop, and when it developed by the end of the war, the Axis no longer had a surface fleet.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 February 2021 03: 54
          0
          On October 25, 44 of Ise's obsolete battle ship was hit by 90+ dive bombers and torpedo bombers. The result is -0. Zero. Cosmetic damage

          Nagato has been in the same situation several times.

          Kurita compound under attack by 500 aircraft

          8 av and a full day of attacks against musashi

          After that, the statement about 18 torpers and dive bombers against Yamato is analyst's sofa crap
          The example of a TO war showed that if one of the parties achieves air supremacy

          In the war of ordinary countries, neither side could achieve confident air supremacy, this is a unique situation, usually at the very end before surrender
          ---
          The odds are also debatable. The Yankees, having 1200 planes in the Philippines, somehow missed the Kurita Saboteur

          Also, Operation Ki-Ta 45
          In the Mediterranean Sea and in the Atlantic, such a situation did not develop, and when it developed by the end of the war, the Axis no longer had a surface fleet.

          That's it!

          Domination was achieved when the enemy can no longer fight and leaves the theater of operations. And in the Mediterranean - again, not without the participation of the United States
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 13: 32
            +1
            Quote: Santa Fe
            On October 25, 44 Ise's obsolete battle ship was hit by 90+ dive bombers and torpedo bombers.

            Quote: Santa Fe
            The odds are also debatable. The Yankees, having 1200 planes in the Philippines, somehow missed the Kurita Saboteur

            )))
            Yes, the battle of Leite is an incredible disgrace. Actually, its main result is that it is possible to create such a superiority of forces that even Nimitz and Halsey at the peak, so to speak, of form, will not be able to lose the battle.
            Quote: Santa Fe
            After that, the statement about 18 torpers and dive bombers against Yamato is analyst's sofa crap

            In the case of Ise, there were 11 torpedo bombers, the rest were dive bombers with mines, which were sent to sink aircraft carriers, not the LK. And the accuracy, frankly speaking, let us down.
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Domination was achieved when the enemy can no longer fight and leaves the theater of operations

            )))
            Not. Dominance is achieved when the Americans reach target capacity.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 8 February 2021 16: 00
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      No, not noticing. America took a long time to accelerate (the Essexes came to MOT only at the end of the 43rd) and slowed down just as long. The continuation of the war in 46 was considered very likely.

      So this is a typical mistake: an estimate based on the aftermath - Japan surrendered in August 1945.

      By mid-1945, the above was absolutely not obvious. So the Olympic and Coronet were looming before the Yankees. And, given the rate of failure of the Essexes as a result of the "special attacks" in 1945, in these operations, and the Midway will not be superfluous.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 6 February 2021 12: 49
    +2
    There were no good tools, that's the catch. Only a pile of expensive weapons

    It looks like one of the famous commentators bit our Oleg after all. We are waiting for articles about "Unthinkable"

    Essexes, Corsairs, Avengers, Fletchers, Baltimore is not good?
    1. Santa Fe
      6 February 2021 13: 01
      +1
      Essexes, Corsairs, Avengers, Fletchers, Baltimore is not good?

      If they have to be written off after a year, then no, that's not good
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 6 February 2021 13: 06
        0
        Write off whom? Essexes? Corsairs? Fletchers? Baltimore?
        1. Santa Fe
          6 February 2021 13: 13
          0
          The newest ships were massively scrapped immediately after the end of the war
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 6 February 2021 13: 16
            +2
            Let's go in order. Which of the Essexes went to the scrap immediately after the ambassador of the war?
            1. Santa Fe
              6 February 2021 13: 27
              0
              Most were withdrawn to reserve immediately after the end of the war

              Some were returned to service in the early 50s, then it turned out that in just a few years the Essexes from shock AB turned into a complete trash, too short and small for jet aircraft

              They served their term in the form of anti-submarine ships
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 6 February 2021 14: 07
                +4
                So it means not for junk, but in the reserve from which they were taken out for the period of Korea and Vietnam
                At the same time, quite relevant drummers such as Skyhawk and Skyrader and Corsair 2 were based on Essex. And only Intruders and Phantoms were considered too heavy.
                They served their term in the form of anti-submarine ships

                Impact capabilities remained
                Intrepid was an anti-submarine ship with
                1961 year. this did not stop him from striking targets in Vietnam
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 34
      +5
      Quote: Engineer
      We are waiting for articles about "Unthinkable"

      From Oleg? No thanks, better not.

      Quote: Engineer
      Essexes, Corsairs, Avengers, Fletchers, Baltimore is not good?

      Baltimore - basically post-war ship. Of the 14 ships of this type, only half participated in the hostilities, EMNIP, while one of the four 41st year - Quincy - was not on TO, and those ships of the 43rd year that had time to go to war, of course, only shot in the spring of 45, when the benefits of them were no longer obvious.

      Corsairs, Avengers OK, the Fletchers have known questions about price and balance, A lot of songs have been sung about Essex, but in any case, the laying of 8 corps in 44 and 45 is somewhat surprising.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 6 February 2021 14: 37
        0
        Many songs have been sung about Essex, but in any case, the laying of 8 corpuses in 44 and 45 years is somewhat surprising.

        Surprise surprise, but what are the claims to the Essex?
        Overkill? Yes
        Is Essex good? Yes
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 15: 03
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          but what are the claims to the Essex?

          To the mobile aircraft depot? They discussed it, it seems, for a long time and in detail.
          Quote: Engineer
          Is Essex good? Yes

          As an American Unryu - yes, as an American Shokaku - not a fact. Like the American Eagle - not at all.
  • tasha
    tasha 6 February 2021 07: 00
    +9
    By the end of the war, the United States became a leader in the development of radars for various purposes.
    This is how the AN / APS-4 pendant station indicator looked in the 4 mile range.
    The dots are boats winked
  • CTABEP
    CTABEP 6 February 2021 08: 26
    +7
    Reading the description of TF 58 in Kaptsov's corporate style, I wanted to include in the background the "Imperial March" from ZV :).
    1. Avior
      Avior 6 February 2021 12: 28
      +8
      do not deny yourself at least such trifles smile
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 6 February 2021 09: 11
    +2
    It’s a pity that I don’t see my colleague Yura, he was a lover of maritime history. Or Andrey from Chelyabinsk, they would have taken apart all the plans and mistakes of the parties
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 08
      +6
      There is nothing special to disassemble for the spring of 45. The Japanese had exactly one mistake: they postponed surrender, hoping for some of their fantasies.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 9 February 2021 18: 27
        -1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The Japanese had exactly one mistake: they postponed surrender, hoping for some of their fantasies.

        Well, one of the fantasies is known - by the Japanese Foreign Ministry: "We are about to persuade the USSR to mediate in the conclusion of a peace treaty between Japan and the United States".
        Even in July 1945 they believed that it was possible - and not only believed, but also acted in this direction. When you read Hattori's description of Japan's foreign policy towards the USSR in 1945, only one thing comes to mind:
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 9 February 2021 18: 57
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          "We are about to persuade the USSR to mediate in the conclusion of a peace treaty between Japan and the United States."

          It's funny to say, but starting from February 45, Japan's main natural ally was China - it was he who was most interested in the early end of the war on any conditions before the appearance of the USSR in full growth there. Unfortunately, this situation was not used correctly by either side.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 9 February 2021 19: 35
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            It's funny to say, but starting from February 45, Japan's main natural ally was China - it was he who was most interested in the early end of the war on any conditions before the appearance of the USSR in full growth there.

            Yes, if Japan surrendered before the USSR entered the war, the same trick with the transfer of trophies from the Manchurian operation to Mao would clearly not have succeeded. smile
            Yes, and "gray schemes" of supplies would also be much more difficult to twist (EMNIP, in Boyko's memoirs it was about the protection of the Soviet forces in Port Arthur for the supply of weapons and ammunition for the "red" Chinese).
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 9 February 2021 20: 02
              0
              Actually, the death of Manchukuo, perhaps the most decent state in that corner, is a tragedy quite comparable to the tragedy of Eastern Europe. If we discard Eurocentrism.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 6 February 2021 09: 35
    +3
    Author Do you really believe that torpedoes were dropped from almost 2 km away?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 06
      +4
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      torpedoes were dropped from almost 2 km?

      What does "believe" mean? The range of Japanese aviation torpedoes (Type 91) is 2 km. They tried to dump them closer, but also 800-900 meters - the limit of the effective range of fire of erlikons, that is, the torpedo bomber, with a high probability, will be hit after the torpedo is dropped (if at all). The torpedo covered 900 meters in 40 seconds.
      1. Ryaruav
        Ryaruav 6 February 2021 15: 55
        +1
        Well, and the ship in 40 seconds at a speed of 25 knots will cover 350 meters plus a maneuver, how is it going ahead?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 15: 56
          +2
          Quote: Ryaruav
          The ship will cover 40 meters in 25 seconds at a speed of 350 knots plus a maneuver, how is it going ahead?

          Uh-huh.

          Therefore, throwing torpedoes was not as easy as it might seem.
      2. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 6 February 2021 19: 25
        +1
        The range of the Erlikon was up to 2-3 km in height, and more than 4 km in range. When several Erlikons are working, and even paired, it is a shower of fire. If you throw a torpedo from 900 meters then the chance of hitting is close to 0, even if the target is stupidly walking in a straight line. There is still a chance for transport, but for a warship this is shooting into the void. It is not for nothing that the torpedo bombers were called suicide bombers.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 19: 40
          +3
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          It is not for nothing that they called torpedo bombers suicide bombers.

          Not therefore.
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          If you throw a torpedo from 900 m then the chance to hit is close to 0

          Therefore, torpedoes were thrown towards the ship, at an angle, from both sides. Of the 18 torpedoes, the ship will catch part of it, no matter how it turns.
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          The range of the Erlikon was up to 2-3 km in height, and more than 4 km in range.

          You are confusing Oerlikon and Bofors.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 8 February 2021 16: 10
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Not therefore.

            And so too. Remember Paddy Burns Torpedo Bomber?
            Lower and lower. Even lower, to the water itself. From there, the white paths of water columns stretch to the car, and if you go correctly, they fill the cockpit glazing, and you look into the sight, and you see the high side of the vessel, and you note the time between the passage of the vertical thread by the mast and the pipe, and you count the cables per minute, and then you multiply by six and you get the nodes, and then you enter this with the handwheel into the “torpedo computer” Mk.F, and it gives you time to reset - just keep the course, speed and height, he himself will enter the lapel angle, the lead angle into the torpedo, and you just have to stay on course and wait.
            Wait.
            And you wait.
            First, a 37 mm shell tears off the right console.
            But the plane is still in the air.
            The 20 mm splashes into bulletproof glass right next to the scope, and you don’t see anything behind the milk mesh of cracks, but you know that this is a firling, and the fourth barrel took you below.
            And the next second, you get from it two 20-millimeter cartridges of your "Spanish-shiz".
            “Torbo” is a strong aircraft, it can withstand it without falling apart, but the fire can no longer be curbed.
            And you yell to the navigator: “Bail out, Frank (Tony, Greg, Kevin, Sid ...), bail out !!!”
            And then you drop the torpedo into the white light so that the plane lasts a little longer in the air.
            And then you turn over through the torn wing and become a white geyser of water spray.
            Never, never, for any profit, I, Paddy Burns, will not lead the squadron to the attack on the "torpedo computer" Mk.F.

            In principle, in 1943, even on ETVD, torpedo bombers became either suicide bombers or valuable animals that required competent and numerous support to launch an attack. Air defense suppression groups grew incredibly, to the point that their power was enough to sink a target without the participation of a torpedo bomber ("Rockby").
  • Constanty
    Constanty 6 February 2021 10: 31
    +3
    It is worth noting that the American enemy went through the war, having in stock only 10 cruisers with a displacement of 10+ thousand tons.

    Let's say 12
    1. unknown
      unknown 7 February 2021 07: 23
      0
      18 heavy cruisers, of which four are up to 10000 tons.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 7 February 2021 12: 12
        0
        I wrote nonsense admit.

        In fact, Japan had 14 cruisers with a standard displacement of more than 10 tons.
        - 4 "Myoko"
        - 4 types of "Takao"
        - 2 types "Tonal"
        and 4 types "Mogami"

        The cruisers of the "Aoba" and "Furutaka" types, although they were armed with 6 200 mm guns (later replaced by 203 mm), had a smaller displacement.
        Moreover, the light cruiser "Oiodo" had a larger displacement than they did .. Full 11 433 ts
  • Constanty
    Constanty 6 February 2021 10: 45
    +3
    The installations themselves had a good firing angle diagram and were covered with shrouds to protect the crews from splashing water.


    In fact, the shields of 127-mm and 25-mm artillery mounts "Yamato" (original configuration) were not installed to protect against water splashes (they were installed far enough from sea level) but to withstand a huge shock wave with simultaneous firing from all three guns of one 460mm turret (with a pressure of 285 psi at a distance of 5 meters), so the anti-aircraft gun mountings were placed directly in the main structure of the wheelhouse and were completely
    covered with casings, and the deck in the area of ​​the main towers did not contain equipment or other structural elements.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 6 February 2021 10: 47
    +7
    Show how unusual the situation was on the morning of April 7, 1945.

    ,,,nothing unusual. Oleg in the article presents it in such a way that OS 58 was created specifically for the sinking of the Yamato.
    As early as mid-January 1944, the US Navy adopted a new concept of using fighters and bombers fired from aircraft carriers to attack enemy strongpoints and weaken enemy defenses before landing. To shift the role of aircraft carriers from defense to aggressive offensive, carrier groups required significant protection against large ships (battleships and cruisers) and the perimeter from destroyers to repel oncoming attacks by Japanese aircraft and / or submarines.
    The way to manage this compound was developed mainly by Admiral Mark Mitcher:
    The ideal composition of an operational group of aircraft carriers is four aircraft carriers, six to eight auxiliary ships and at least 18 destroyers, preferably 24. More than four aircraft carriers in a task group cannot be effectively used due to the use of airspace. Less than four aircraft carriers are not economical ,,,


    January 6, 1944: Task Force 58 formed

    August 26, 1944: capture of the Marshall Islands; raids on Truk, Palau and Markus Wake islands

    January 1945 Operation King II, Love III, Mike I (Philippine Campaigns), Gratitude

    May 28, 1945 Operation Iceberg (Okinawa)
  • Constanty
    Constanty 6 February 2021 10: 52
    +4
    Military-technical cooperation with the Germans also yielded nothing. Throughout the war, the Kriegsmarine sailors were forced to fight off aircraft from the semi-automatic anti-aircraft guns 3.7 cm SK C / 30.


    After the Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk plant was captured by the German army, the serial production of the 40-mm Bofors guns was completed, and they began to be produced for the needs of the Third Reich.
    In German service, the seized guns were labeled 4 cm Flak 28. Among other things, they were installed in service. on the cruisers Emden, Nuremberg, Prinz Eugen
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 6 February 2021 11: 11
      +4
      "Prinz Eugen"


  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 6 February 2021 10: 58
    +4
    Throughout the war, the Kriegsmarine sailors were forced to fight off aircraft from the semi-automatic anti-aircraft guns 3.7 cm SK C / 30.

    Let's not put the whole war ...
    4 cm Flak 28 - began to be installed on ships in 43 (before that, "bofors" were used mainly in basic air defense), 3.7 cm Flak M42 and 3.7 cm / 57 Flak M43 from 1944.
    1. Santa Fe
      6 February 2021 11: 17
      0
      1944-th.

      From what month
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 February 2021 11: 48
        +2
        Quote: Santa Fe
        From what month

        It is necessary to dig, the first anti-aircraft guns went to the submarine ...
        1. bubalik
          bubalik 6 February 2021 12: 31
          +4
          Flak M42 began to be installed on submarines in December 1943.
  • smaug78
    smaug78 6 February 2021 11: 24
    +5
    Yeah ... got into the crowd, instead of hitting the enemy individually.

    Who would give him? Americans are not stupid.
  • hostel
    hostel 6 February 2021 11: 25
    +3
    TF 58 was built by a mighty industrial power.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 6 February 2021 11: 28
    +6
    that's what Kuzya and his "AUG" expects from one cruiser .... if they leave more than 500 km from Severomorsk, and even 10 cruisers will not save him (see the list of US and NATO warships) Essen and Kuznetsov knew this, so our battleships have never fought ... they were not needed, so they were not needed
  • Archemor
    Archemor 6 February 2021 11: 55
    +4
    I would like to look at the face of the pilot of the plane, which was zhahli "anti-aircraft ammunition caliber 460 mm."
  • Kars
    Kars 6 February 2021 12: 13
    +2
    It would be interesting to see an escorted Yamato against a pair of Yankee Avians.
    1. bubalik
      bubalik 6 February 2021 12: 44
      +1

      Kars
      Today,
      “You haven't been seen for a long time.
      1. Kars
        Kars 6 February 2021 13: 37
        +1
        Yes, I'm here all the time, I just write a little.
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 6 February 2021 13: 03
      0
      No chance for Yamato. He cannot get close and impose a battle. The extremities are not protected. To reach the bridgehead in Okinawa, the chances are only theoretical. In any case, he will not be able to fight
      1. Kars
        Kars 6 February 2021 13: 39
        0
        Could a proportionally reduced number of aircraft achieve the same proportional number of hits? Given that the number of hits should decrease not proportionally, but in a square progression. Or whatever it is called.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 6 February 2021 13: 52
          0
          No, they couldn't.
          But they don't need to plant 10 torpedoes. Slow down gradually, knock out the MSA. Remaining out of reach by yourself. The next day, repeat on a slower and less agile target.
          1. Kars
            Kars 6 February 2021 14: 09
            0
            And the fact that the loss of aircraft will also increase in square proportion? As well as the accumulation of damage to the same aircraft? Will anyone fly in the next morning?
            Despite the fact that the Yamato will calmly withstand a couple of three torpedoes
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 6 February 2021 14: 24
              +1
              The two Essexes at the start are 202 operational aircraft at the start of the operation for 1945
              At least 180 will be combat-ready for any current day. In case of losses, the remaining twenty will be alerted in a day or two.
              Nobody will be distracted by Yahagi and destroyers with new introductions.
              During daylight hours, the Americans will make at least 2 flights for each plane in four waves. If the detection is at the beginning of the day, then there will be 6 waves
              in each wave it is quite possible to plant a torpedo and lose 4-5 aircraft. This is certainly very rude. You can argue in both directions) Anti-aircraft fire will gradually crush bombs and missiles.

              After 4 torpedoes the next day Yamato had a speed of 21-22 knots and impaired maneuverability. Anti-aircraft capabilities have been significantly reduced. In my opinion, the balance of forces will constantly change in favor of amers.
              Shl. Somewhere after seven torpedoes, a turning point will come - a sharp decrease in the combat stability and combat effectiveness of the battleship.
              ZZY About six waves got excited. 4 waves. Not more
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 15: 09
                +4
                Quote: Engineer
                The two Essexes at the start are 202 operational aircraft at the start of the operation for 1945

                Quote: Engineer
                During daylight hours, the Americans will make at least 2 flights for each plane in four waves. If the detection is at the beginning of the day, then there will be 6 waves

                Nonsense, already discussed this. The maximum number of aircraft in one wave from one AB is approximately 30, no 101 active aircraft have ever been on AB at the same time. Including Nimitz. Two ABs are two waves of 50-60 beads each with ideal performance. Not more.

                Although, with perfect performance, any Yamato, of course, two such waves will be enough with a margin.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 6 February 2021 15: 29
                  0
                  Have you read Friedman?
                  All calculations were made for a "full load deck" - 40 aircraft for Essex. This is the wave
                  You read the midnake too literally and carry over the realities of 1942 throughout the war.
                  101 active aircraft at the same time on AB never happened.

                  And Friedman was writing. At the same time, there are no combat ready. Loaded in collected and ready to use - YES
                  To the mobile aircraft depot? They discussed it, it seems, for a long time and in detail.

                  There was a spanking of British boxes, as far as I remember.
                  As an American Unryu - yes, as an American Shokaku - not a fact. Like the American Eagle - not at all.

                  Essex is an American mobilization AB. The backbone of the fleet.
                  Eagle is the ultimate ship for the available technologies that, in principle, could not be in time for the war.
                  Someone calls Baltimore mainly post-war, but does not want to apply the same approach to Eagle
                  He is good. But as the basis of the wartime fleet is too complicated even for amers.
                  Had the Americans laid Midway a year earlier, he still would have had time only for the final battles. Eagle is even more difficult than Midway, purely constructive.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 16: 34
                    +1
                    Quote: Engineer
                    All calculations were made for a "full load deck" - 40 aircraft for Essex.

                    It remains to find a real operation in which the Americans launched such a number of aircraft in one wave.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    And Friedman was writing. At the same time, there are no combat ready. Loaded assembled and ready to use - YES

                    3x18 combat-ready strike aircraft.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    There was a spanking of British boxes, as far as I remember.

                    What playful fantasies you have.

                    You said that American planes did not climb on British elevators, and British naval planes during the war were a decent squalor. In this, of course, you were right.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Essex is an American mobilization AB. The backbone of the fleet.

                    Uh-huh.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Eagle is the ultimate ship for the available technologies that, in principle, could not be in time for the war.

                    In fact, yes.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Someone calls Baltimore mainly post-war, but does not want to apply the same approach to Eagle

                    Quite the opposite. I consider half of the Essexes to be post-war ships (starting with CV-21 except CV-38), and in this context, they do not look very impressive.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Had the Americans laid Midway a year earlier, he still would have had time only for the final battles.

                    7 Essexes entered service later than Midway and Roosevelt.

                    As a matter of fact, there are several directions of claims against the Essex.

                    Claims from the beginning of the war. Too long and too expensive. Let me remind you that while BuC & R, Newport and Battleham took turns designing Essex, the Navy had enough time for such mega-important ships as Montana and especially Alaska. In addition, I constantly recall the fact that from Wasp to Essex, the Americans managed to lay 1 AB and 10 LC.

                    The option to bookmark Yorktowns, but 8 at once in the 40th (the Two-Ocean Navy Act provided for 200K VI on AB *) looks clearly preferable.

                    Mid-war claims. The balance of the ships you are so excited about is controversial.

                    End of war claims. In general, it’s cheap, money down the drain, unlike Midway.

                    * Separate song that Two-Ocean Navy Act
                    (a) Capital ships, three hundred and eighty-five thousand tons;
                    (b) Aircraft carriers, two hundred thousand tons;
                    (c) Cruisers, four hundred and twenty thousand tons;
                    (d) Destroyers, two hundred and fifty thousand tons;
                    (e) Submarines, seventy thousand tons

                    Doesn't come across as a well thought out document.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 6 February 2021 17: 23
                      +1
                      It remains to find a real operation in which the Americans launched such a number of aircraft in one wave.

                      Good question. Unfortunately, Friedman is not an assistant here.
                      3x18 combat-ready strike aircraft.

                      What kind of dismount? Dispute about this
                      101 active aircraft at the same time on AB never happened

                      Sometimes, Friedman page 154. speech about operational. reserve is not mentioned.
                      Quite the opposite. I consider half of the Essexes to be post-war ships (starting with CV-21 except CV-38), and in this context, they do not look very impressive.

                      This is the redundancy of the program, but in no way can it be a claim to the project itself.
                      Has Essex gotten worse from being ordered and built beyond measure? Someone's best WWII battleship did not get on it. Doublethink of some kind

                      You said that American planes did not climb on British elevators, and British naval planes during the war were a decent squalor. In this, of course, you were right.

                      Well, don't be cunning, there was also about hangars on the last pair and a reserve of aviation fuel, and about elevators and about the concept of a closed armored hangar. And about BDSM with the modernization of Vic, generated by a crooked concept, although I casually mentioned
                      And he also said about a complete failure with the initial setting - action in confined waters in conditions of enemy superiority

                      I find it absurd to try to justify the Britons by separating aircraft carriers from aircraft. The same Eagle was designed with an excellent stock in the size of hangars and elevators - and no complaints. Have seen the light. In Malta, the British were going to go even further. The aircraft carrier is essentially an infrastructure ship. He fights with elevators and hangars.

                      The option to bookmark Yorktowns, but 8 at once in the 40th (the Two-Ocean Navy Act provided for 200K VI on AB *) looks clearly preferable.

                      Yorktown is a good ship. But even in this version, the Americans did not have time for the battles of the 42nd year, and by the 44th they already have Essexes, which are more suitable for prolonged operations. , in marketable quantities. So it is not necessary

                      Mid-war claims. The balance of the ships you are so excited about is controversial.

                      On the contrary, I am delighted with the unique utility that came from imbalances project
                      In terms of shock capabilities, Essex is no weaker than Needle. Doesn't it inspire?
                      Elevators, anar, flight deck - everything fit right in. Almost perfect product concept for WWII

                      Separate song that Two-Ocean Navy Act

                      What does the Essex have to do with it?
                      Stop braiding)
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 18: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Unfortunately, Friedman is not an assistant here.

                        Ugums. In the case of Yamato, for example, there were 227 aircraft with 8 decks in the first wave. The second and third (in fact, this is one unsuccessful wave) - 167 planes in total.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Dispute about this
                        101 active aircraft at the same time on AB never happened

                        Established wing of the Essex type AB - 3 strike squadrons (bombers, torpedo bombers, reconnaissance aircraft (also bombers) and the 4th twin fighter (36 aircraft). Total 90. Plus 3 spare aircraft of each type, + one wing commander. This is the theoretical maximum. In practice, the balance was constantly shifting towards fighters.By the end of the war, a typical air group consisted of 2x36 IS and 2x15 torpedo bombers and dive bombers.

                        For all the advantages of Hellquet, he is so-so against LK. So your enthusiasm for the impacting capabilities of the Essex seems overwhelming to me.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Has Essex gotten worse from being ordered and built beyond measure? Someone's best WWII battleship did not get on it. Doublethink of some kind

                        Yes, with the best battleship of the war it turned out badly. Although the shortage of fast LKs with the loss of Hood and Compound Z seems to me unconditional, so I can't call the construction of Vanguard deliberately meaningless. And how many Vanguards will pull pieces of the last 10 Essexes for money?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And he also said about a complete failure with the initial setting - action in confined waters in conditions of enemy superiority

                        Yeah. When you got to the shocking announcement that Kesselring seemed to have swept limes out of the Mediterranean with the "filthy broom", I found it difficult to continue the discussion.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I find it absurd to try to justify the Britons by separating aircraft carriers from aircraft.

                        Why would that? There is no dispute that the only country that was really able to go to war at sea is the United States. But this should not be taken as an ultimatum answer to any question like the notorious Flag Above the Reichstag. I, as I said, do not like any American warship, except for Baltimore, Geering and Balao, and those with reservations.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But even in this version, the Americans did not have time for the battles of 42.

                        Is it to Midway (although Essex, shifted a year to the right, has time). But the autumn of 43 moves forward a year. I remember that the Americans had an aircraft carrier crisis on 2/2 of the 42nd - 1/2 of the 43rd. USS ROBIN, that's all.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Almost perfect product concept for WWII

                        The Americans accidentally made a ship for tactics that they didn’t even have close to in 41. In this respect, he was successful.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What does the Essex have to do with it?

                        Despite the fact that the act fits 6-7 Essexes, but more 13 battleships (6 of them disguised as cruisers). So the claim to Essex as a ship is a very small part of the claims to USN as a whole.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 6 February 2021 19: 32
                        +1
                        In the case of Yamato, for example, there were 227 aircraft with 8 decks in the first wave. The second and third (in fact, this is one unsuccessful wave) - 167 planes in total.

                        But not all decks are Essexes. And the example is not representative, because it is not your notorious alpha-strike. the Americans acted with an eye on the kamikaze. And held back some of the machines

                        In practice, the balance was constantly shifting towards fighters. By the end of the war, a typical air group consisted of 2x36 IS and 2x15 torpedo bombers and dive bombers.

                        For all the advantages of Hellquet, he is so-so against LK. So your enthusiasm for the impacting capabilities of the Essex seems overwhelming to me.

                        Yes, what are we talking about In 45, of course, IS gradually replaced the rest of the aircraft. Because aircraft carrier duels are already in the past. Yamato, of course, dealt with aircraft carriers on which the emphasis was on fighters. That is why it would not have been torn apart at once if there were only a couple of amers. To reproach Essex, well, such a thing. And even more so to question the striking ability of the Essexes.
                        Compared to the 45-year-old Implacable?
                        Yes, with the best battleship of the war it turned out badly. Although the shortage of fast LKs with the loss of Hood and Compound Z seems to me unconditional, so I can't call the construction of Vanguard deliberately meaningless. And how many Vanguards will pull pieces of the last 10 Essexes for money?

                        Cost has been discussed many times. I myself have given examples that the American industry is very controversial. Well, okay salaries are twice as high as English ones. So also labor costs are higher than British ones. Nobody knows how much Vanguard would cost when building in the USA. It would be three or four times more expensive. But at least I would have had time for the war.
                        10 Essexes are more useful than any number of Vanguards. Suddenly.

                        Yeah. When you got to the shocking announcement that Kesselring seemed to have swept limes out of the Mediterranean with the "filthy broom", I found it difficult to continue the discussion.

                        The original was about aircraft carriers limey) Kesselring was not.
                        The stage of denial is delayed, but oh well
                        Why would that? There is no dispute that the only country that was really able to go to war at sea is the United States.

                        Japan was still able to.
                        Essex is good because it is the best mobilization option. Shokaku is also good, but more difficult.
                        The British line could have looked much more dignified, but there are absolutely idiotic miscalculations. In this they have no equal. Even smarter planning didn't help

                        Is it to Midway (although Essex, shifted a year to the right, has time)

                        Can not get in time. And santa cruz does not have time. This is possible only on the assumption that we are building York, not Essex. and put it right after ordering, but this is impossible. We need to prepare a place, create a stock of materials, place workers.
                        It will not be possible to move for a year plus six months after the commissioning for recruiting, training and putting together crews. We do not have time for the battles of the 42nd in any way.
                        I remember that the Americans had an aircraft carrier crisis on 2/2 of the 42nd - 1/2 of the 43rd. USS ROBIN, that's all.

                        Tell B and tell me how critical it was
                        So the claim to Essex as a ship is a very small part of the claims to USN as a whole.

                        USN is highly suboptimal in composition and construction stages. Wow, what news.
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 20: 06
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But not all decks are Essexes.

                        TG 58.1: Hornet, Bennington, Belleau Wood, San Jacinto; TG 58.3 Essex, Bunker Hill, Hancock and Bataan
                        5 Essexes, 3 Independences. It is important?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And the example is not representative, because it is not your notorious alpha-strike. the Americans acted with an eye on the kamikaze. And held back some of the machines

                        As if the air defense units should be occupied by the Alfastrike machines.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        To reproach Essex, well, such a thing. And even more so to question the striking ability of the Essexes.

                        What is it. You have one understanding of the role of AB, the Americans have a slightly different one. Somehow, little by little, their large AVs became primarily ships for ensuring air supremacy, and the shock functions against the coast mainly fell on jeeps.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Compared to the 45-year-old Implacable?

                        HMS Implacable arrived in the Pacific in mid-1945 with 81 aircraft: 48 Seafire IIIs, 12 Fireflies and 21 Avengers.
                        You, I remember, are insecure without the helpers.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        10 Essexes are more useful than any number of Vanguards. Suddenly.

                        In peacetime? Is not a fact.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The original was about Limey aircraft carriers

                        Stosh, I had to somehow spin the limes without aircraft carriers.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Japan was still able to.

                        No.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Essex is good because it is the best mobilization option. Shokaku is also good, but more difficult.

                        Because Sekaku is not mobilization at all. So, plus the States - their "mobilization" project was comparable to other people's drums. This is not only about AB.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The British line could have looked much more dignified, but there are absolutely idiotic miscalculations.

                        Yes, the British naval aviation was not very successful.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Tell B and tell me how critical it was

                        Well, in fact, nothing is critical to the Americans, they fought a little in the Chile. That is, labor exploits and all that, of course, but in chill, nevertheless.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        USN is highly suboptimal in composition and construction stages. Wow, what news.

                        Yeah. But you are presenting for Vanguard wassat

                        And again. The weirdness of the British, in my opinion, is far from the weirdness of the Americans. Even KD5, which you love so much, are explainable, in contrast to.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 6 February 2021 20: 53
                        0
                        5 Essexes, 3 Independences. It is important?

                        Obviously yes)
                        As if the air defense units should be occupied by the Alfastrike machines.

                        Don't juggle. Air defense, PLO Plus operational reinforcement of BVP for which, due to the threat of kamikaze, it is necessary to allocate more than usual.
                        What is it. You have one understanding of the role of AB, the Americans have a slightly different one. Somehow, little by little, their large AVs became primarily ships for ensuring air supremacy, and the shock functions against the coast mainly fell on jeeps.

                        Not true. In 45, the big guys are gutting the coast, as are the little baby flattops. The corsair provides very good opportunities.
                        Fleet battles are no longer expected. Benefit IB instead of the former clean drummers.
                        The corsair carries 2-1000 pounds. Hellcat alone. In Okinawa, the Corsair placed bombs and napalm tanks with very decent accuracy.
                        Against Yamato, the Helldiver would have been better, no doubt, but the corsair also has a lot to frolic under the conditions of speed reduction from torpedoes.
                        HMS Implacable arrived in the Pacific in mid-1945 with 81 aircraft: 48 Seafire IIIs, 12 Fireflies and 21 Avengers.

                        You, I remember, are insecure without the helpers.

                        Remember bad. Fireflies are quite good as dive bombers, but the real load is one 1000 pounds.
                        Sephaire 3 - one lb 500 But he desperately needs an extra fuel tank. Therefore, we delete the Sifires from the drummers.
                        There are no de facto torpedo bombers on Implacable. British torpedo does not go into Avenger. Amer torpedoes were delivered very few. But we will consider Avenger a torp because it is not Brit's fault that he had to serve in the Dolbychan fleet. The ship is not bad and deserves a better lot.
                        Yorktown CV-10
                        Air Group 88 VF-88 30 F6F June 1945
                        6 F6F-5N
                        3 F6F-5P
                        VB-88 15 SB2C
                        VBF-88 37 F4U
                        VT-88 1 5 TBM
                        30 full-fledged strikers versus 21 Avengers
                        37 magnificent corsairs versus 12 malachol fireflies (although I sympathize with this aircraft)
                        30 out of 39 Hellkets can carry a bomb load equal to a firefly.
                        The American aircraft carrier has more fuel. More bombs too
                        Major to complete advantage.
                        In peacetime? Is not a fact.

                        The fact, the more the Korean war is on the nose.
                        Yes, the British naval aviation was not very successful.

                        Like aircraft carriers, why be shy.
                        Because Sekaku is not mobilization at all.

                        Undoubtedly
                        So, plus the States - their "mobilization" project was comparable to other people's drums.

                        Strangers the best, to be more precise.
                        Stosh, I had to somehow spin the limes without aircraft carriers.

                        It turned out badly)

                        Well, in fact, nothing is critical to the Americans, they fought a little in the Chile. That is, labor exploits and all that, of course, but in chill, nevertheless.

                        That's right. This is the answer about the banner over the Reichstag. Spent more money than necessary, but kicked ass in between exercises and drinking.

                        Yeah. But you are presenting for Vanguard

                        Essex is the best because he was in time for the war, formed the ridge of the Navy and broke the enemy on the knee. The fact that they were built more than necessary is not an Essex problem.

                        Vanguard is the best because ... didn’t do anything at all, but Limephils like it.?
                      5. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 21: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Obviously yes)

                        It is not obvious, since half of the aircraft of the first wave is information security, including those from the Independences.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Air defense, PLO Plus operational reinforcement of BVP for which, due to the threat of kamikaze, it is necessary to allocate more than usual.

                        Well, they did it. You won't be able to launch all 58.1 and 58.3 aircraft on Yamato twice, whatever one may say.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The corsair provides very good opportunities.

                        Provides, although the main information security was f6f. But it seems to me that you have gone off topic.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Therefore, we delete the Sifires from the drummers.

                        Naturally, we cross it out, this is the air defense of the compound.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Major to complete advantage.

                        It seems that you have proved again that Corsair and Hellcat as IB are stronger than Sefire. Congratulations.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The fact, the more the Korean war is on the nose.

                        How many ABs do you need for the Korean War? Maybe you should save some money on AB and leave a couple of tank divisions, not to disperse everything to the last?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Yes, the British naval aviation was not very successful.

                        Like aircraft carriers, why be shy.

                        Naval Aviation.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The best of others, to be more precise.

                        Yes, you can.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It turned out badly)

                        Seriously? I did not notice such problems.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That's right. This is the answer about the banner over the Reichstag. ...

                        You again forgot about my dissenting opinion about the results of WWII.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Vanguard is the best because

                        Vanguard is the best because it is the only LC built after Yamato, which can be considered a reasonable construction. Vanguard has something to compare with in this regard.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Essex is the best because he was in time for the war, formed the backbone of the Navy and broke the enemy on the knee.

                        Essex is the best because it became the main AB of the only country that was able to enter naval aviation. Actually, with this understanding, it cannot have competitors by definition. But that doesn't make it a smart project. Successful - possibly reasonable - no.
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 6 February 2021 22: 04
                        0
                        Well, they did it. You won't be able to launch all 58.1 and 58.3 aircraft on Yamato twice, whatever one may say.

                        I didn't mean to. You have lost the thread of the dispute. Let me remind you: spherovacuum two essex against the Yamato group. But even here my estimates were given differently. ... 40 from the side in a wave, two waves, two sorties. In total, 80 aircraft from each avik make two sorties against Yamato a day.
                        It seems that you have proved again that Corsair and Hellcat as IB are stronger than Sefire. Congratulations.

                        Not this way. The impact capabilities of Brit and Amer were compared. And without reference to a specific task
                        Hellcut and Corsair drummers. No sleep. Everyone agreed on this. Essex is a clear winner. In the middle of 1945, he had 97 strikers, although 67 of them were strongly not optimal for operations against high-speed warships at sea. But there are, after all, strikes on the naval base and other coastal facilities.
                        Brit has only 33 of them.
                        How many ABs do you need for the Korean War? Maybe you should save some money on AB and leave a couple of tank divisions, not to disperse everything to the last?

                        Here you again move out on your toys. The dilemma was Essex or Vanguard. No TD. The answer is definitely Essex. Always.
                        Seriously? I did not notice such problems.

                        A convoy to Malta with a break of a year can hardly be considered an absence of problems. And he is defeated.
                        You again forgot about my dissenting opinion about the results of WWII.

                        There is a 70-30 ratio between theaters in terms of resources. I repeat. That is, let's say you are right and the war in Europe is lost. But was it because Yusevi ate as if not into himself? Or are the key miscalculations somewhere else?
                        Essex is the best because it became the main AB of the only country that was able to enter naval aviation. Actually, with this understanding, it cannot have competitors by definition. But that doesn't make it a smart project.

                        A specimen of resourcefulness. Straight Odysseus from Ithaca)
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 22: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But even here my estimates were given differently. ... 40 from the side in a wave, two waves, two sorties. In total, 80 aircraft from each avik make two sorties against Yamato a day.

                        Quote: Engineer
                        The two Essexes at the start are 202 operational aircraft at the start of the operation for 1945
                        At least 180 will be combat-ready for any current day. In case of losses, the remaining twenty will be alerted in a day or two.
                        Nobody will be distracted by Yahagi and destroyers with new introductions.
                        During daylight hours, Americans will make at least 2 flights for each plane in four waves

                        Even your refined calculation is 4 waves a day, complete nonsense. There were 4 waves when they came from different ships, if they could not be brought into one wave.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In the middle of 1945 he had 97 drummers

                        You see, I've already read that. However, you see this as a problem for the aircraft carrier, I - that the Sea Fury and especially the Westland Wyvern did not succeed a little.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The dilemma was Essex or Vanguard. No TD. The answer is definitely Essex. Always.

                        Not. The dilemma was the 5th useless LC or the 20th to 30th useless ABs.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        A convoy to Malta with a break of a year can hardly be considered an absence of problems.

                        You can't please you. As if in the Philippines, for example, there was no break with convoys. I remember that you had to push hard to equate the lost Arc Royal with the American aircraft carrier genocide of 42.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But is it because Yusevi ate as if not into himself? Or are the key miscalculations somewhere else?

                        In everything. Defeat, like victory, is a complex result of efforts. The distribution of resources, material and logistic, undoubtedly also contributed, although given the lack of scarcity of resources among the Americans, this contribution is in no way decisive.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        A specimen of resourcefulness.

                        What can you do. The bulk of TF 38/58 obscures the sun, darkens the mind. So you get Cleveland the best cruiser, Essex the best AB, and Iowa the best battleship, well if not South Dakota at least. Well, F6F with F4Yu, of course, are the best planes, although the first is hack, and the second is an epic failure.
                      8. Engineer
                        Engineer 6 February 2021 23: 12
                        0
                        Even your refined calculation is 4 waves a day, complete nonsense. There were 4 waves when they came from different ships, if they could not be brought into one wave.

                        You are surprisingly dull today. 4 waves because we strike again. Two hits in two waves. I don't know how else to explain it. Daylight hours in April in Okinawa google it yourself.
                        You see, I've already read that. However, you see this as a problem for the aircraft carrier, I - that the Sea Fury and especially the Westland Wyvern did not succeed a little.

                        Heh, the principle "the road is a spoon to dinner" is fundamental for me.
                        About "a little" at Wyvern, you are slightly bent
                        You can't please you. As if in the Philippines, for example, there was no break with convoys.

                        If in the 44th it did not happen. If in 42 you say
                        Seriously? I did not notice such problems.

                        about the Philippines, my tongue will not turn.
                        I remember that you had to push hard to equate the lost Arc Royal with the American aircraft carrier genocide of 42.

                        I don't need to press. Americans hacked to death with the strongest enemy in the world. Angles with Ark Royal and Glories fabulously shit out of the blue.
                        In everything. Defeat, like victory, is a complex result of efforts.

                        It's strange, I seem to have clearly learned from you, that defeat was forged by three people
                        1. Corrupt senile
                        2. Texas-Kansas devil. Or Kansas-Texas?
                        3. A redneck senator accidentally ascended to office that is beyond his rank.
                        And now everything is complicated.
                        not determining contribution

                        So I about it
                        Iowa is the best battleship

                        Yamato is the Best.
                        u and F6F with F4Yu, of course - the best planes

                        The corsair is undoubtedly the best. Sea Fury with Vanguard goes to the dustbin of history. Although I have already confessed my love for the former.
                      9. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 7 February 2021 00: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        4 waves because we strike again. Two hits in two waves.

                        It remains, as before, to find a real operation, where the number of sorties per day was higher than the number of available planes, not to mention that it was twice as high.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Heh, the principle "the road is a spoon to dinner" is fundamental for me.
                        About "a little" at Wyvern, you are slightly bent

                        Slightly, yeah. What to do, the Americans didn't make it to 42nd, the British didn't make it to 45.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Americans hacked to death with the strongest enemy in the world. Angles with Ark Royal and Glories fabulously shit out of the blue.

                        This strongest enemy had under 800 coastal aircraft in one operation in 42? I don’t remember.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        1. Corrupt senile
                        2. Texas-Kansas devil. Or Kansas-Texas?
                        3. A redneck senator accidentally ascended to office that is beyond his rank.

                        The State Department was forgotten.

                        As I said, defeat is a complex result of all efforts.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Yamato is the Best.

                        Maybe. Although controversial.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The corsair is undoubtedly the best.

                        I think, if the navy in the 38th year, who said that they were ordering an aircraft for the British and the ILC, and USN would receive it in seven years, it would not have done without a fight.
                      10. Engineer
                        Engineer 7 February 2021 00: 32
                        0
                        It remains, as before, to find a real operation, where the number of sorties per day was higher than the number of available planes, not to mention that it was twice as high.

                        Offhand CV-47 140 flights per day on the Busan perimeter.
                        https://military.wikia.org/wiki/USS_Philippine_Sea_(CV-47)
                        This strongest enemy had under 800 coastal aircraft in one operation in 42? I don’t remember.

                        That is, in 41-42 years there is a force more powerful than Kido Butai?
                        And the number of aircraft is from the Cretan operation? And what is its result? This is not to mention the fact that Richthofen's corps is much weaker than the Yaps de facto when operating against naval targets.
                        Interesting stories have gone. But I have to sleep, sorry
                      11. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 7 February 2021 01: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        140 flights per day on the Busan perimeter.

                        ))) No, it won't. And the 7th Fleet taffy sorties won't go.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And the number of aircraft is from the Cretan operation?

                        Pedestal.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That is, in 41-42 years there is a force more powerful than Kido Butai?

                        Quantitatively - any air force of any country in the first row. One AB - one three-regiment division funded by Soviet money.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But I have to sleep, sorry

                        hi
                      12. Engineer
                        Engineer 7 February 2021 09: 51
                        0
                        ))) No, it won't

                        I had no doubt)
                        Pedestal.

                        I described in sufficient detail the Axis air attacks in this operation. What kind of 800 aircraft are there or are they comparable to the Japanese wunderwaffe?
                        Quantitatively - any air force of any country in the first row. One AB - one three-regiment division funded by Soviet money.

                        The sense of proportion has completely changed for you. It is a pity that the debater in you is stronger than the researcher.

                        Control shot. I had completely forgotten that Lymephiles, unlike gentlemen, cannot be taken at their word. I checked it today.
                        Sea Fury didn’t get into the hangar of Implacable or even Illastries. Wyvern even more so.
                        The black dog of British military thought doesn't want to wash it off.

                        Enough for today. The spanking of the British should not become a routine.
                        Until next time hi
                      13. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 7 February 2021 14: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I had no doubt)

                        Yes, the work against the shore is not torn by the alpha-strikers. Does this cause a moral protest in you?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I described in sufficient detail the Axis air attacks in this operation.

                        Quote: Engineer
                        AB - one three-regiment division funded by Soviet money.

                        The sense of proportion has completely changed for you

                        Again twenty-five. You again forget that practically no one knew about the differences between naval aviation and land aviation. Up to Nimitz, sample 42, inclusive. The British proceeded from the quite sensible idea that it would be impossible to challenge the air superiority in the combat zone with carrier-based aircraft. Or, on the contrary, there will be enough albatrosses, because the enemy will have nothing but seaplanes.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I had completely forgotten that Limeiphils, unlike gentlemen, cannot be taken at their word. I checked it today.

                        I have to remind you that appealing to the moral character of the interlocutor was never a good idea.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Sea Fury didn’t get into the hangar of Implacable or even Illastries. Wyvern even more so.

                        Post-war air wings
                        Illustrious - Grumman TBF Avenger, Hawker Sea Fury
                        Victorious - Buccaneer, Gannet, Sea Vixen
                        Implacable - de Havilland Sea Hornet, Blackburn Firebrand

                        As for the unfortunate wyverns, they worked from Albion such as Centaurus and Needle.

                        Quote: Engineer
                        The black dog of British military thought doesn't want to wash it off.

                        The fact that you made claims to the British from about 44 years for insufficiently large hangars and elevators for aircraft, sharply different from the Fairey Swordfish, I have long understood.
                      14. Engineer
                        Engineer 7 February 2021 20: 03
                        0
                        Just to close the topic

                        Sea fury - height 4.84 m Illastries' hangar - 4 nominal. To fit the 88m high Corsair, the wingtips had to be cut by 4.6 inches
                        Sea Fury can only be based on the upper deck of Illastries, and even less so on Implacable. It can take off and land. No fight.
                        In colossus, of course, the fury is placed.

                        Illastries did not have a post-war air wing in the literal sense - since 45 he served as a ship for testing and training. In the 40s, two squadrons of si fury practiced takeoff and landing on it, but were not based. These were the so-called second-line units. In 52, he carried one Dutch Sea Fury squadron in NATO exercises. Everything.

                        Indomitable carried another squadron of Sea Fury on the upper deck in 51.

                        Checked mainly by Hobbs British Aircraft carriers


                        Victories could carry a wide range of aircraft, but only after modernization. Modernization for him is a complete overhaul because the hangar is integrated into the load-bearing structure. The cost of modernization was almost one and a half times higher than the cost of building, taking into account inflation. Costs concept.
                      15. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 7 February 2021 21: 49
                        +3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Just to close the topic

                        I appreciate well-trained interlocutors. However, the categorical unwillingness to understand what you are being told is somewhat surprising.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        To fit the 4.6m high Corsair, the wingtips had to be cut by 4 inches

                        Yeah. More, it seems.


                        The Furies worked primarily with the Colossus.
                        It is also presented to the British that Dantless did not climb on armored cars (although the absence of a folding wing on a deck aircraft does not raise questions for me to the British), as well as the Helldiver

                        At the same time, the Avengers climbed there

                        And, accordingly, the Hellkets


                        Actually, this is the difference between our points of view. You quite reasonably declare that the British, relative to the Americans, have little space, and therefore not any American plane climbs into them, but only Gruman's, Wurt's only if with a sledgehammer and queen-mother. If Essex is a floating warehouse, then the British have some kind of floating Khrushchevs. They might not have been greedy, especially on Implacable, when the construction of which the 23K limit was no longer relevant. In this respect, British ABs are reminiscent of my beloved South Dakotas.

                        This is certainly reasonable enough. The British at the end of the war found themselves in a rather comical situation when their strike aircraft carriers with hangars 4,3 meters in height were in fact inferior to their auxiliary aircraft carriers Colossus with hangars 5,33 meters due to the latter's ability to support albeit a small, but more relevant air wing.

                        But in my humble opinion, the air wing of Gruman's cars and clipped corsairs is not so bad to show the armored cars useless (in real life, as far as I know, the British were not supplied with the F6F). Moreover, the reasons for such a successful hit of Gruman's cars in English hangars are clearly visible in the pictures. So for me the problem of the British AB is the inability of the British to create naval aviation as a whole that is relevant by the standards of TO. For their concept of the 30s and their machines of the 30s, these ships fit perfectly.
                      16. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 February 2021 12: 01
                        0
                        The third battle about aircraft carriers is over. Hopefully there won't be a fourth) there are many other topics

                        I have repeatedly blamed your passion for rounding in the direction you want. You got angry and talked about getting personal.

                        Here is drawn a blissful picture
                        But in my humble opinion, the air wing of Gruman's cars and clipped corsairs is not so bad as to show the uselessness of armored cars

                        But in real life Avenger was placed in a hangar, but in the elevators of the first three he was placed back to back. Therefore, it required very precise positioning, which made operational use difficult.
                        Due to the shortage of American torpedoes, Avengers were used 90 percent as bombers. In my somewhat abstract paradigm of comparing ship + possible Avigroup is not a disadvantage. If there is a possibility of using American aircraft, then I can consider the lack of American torpedoes an annoying misunderstanding.
                        But when evaluating the real shock capabilities, one must not forget about the lack of torpedoes.

                        The picture is no longer so blissful.
                        The situation with the corsairs is even worse. In the hangars of the last pair (the most powerful), they do not climb even in the cut version. Indomable will only fit into the lower (half) hangar

                        F6F was delivered to the British and even knocked down messengers by acting from Aviks.
                        Spherical vacuum implacable with evangers and purely hellcats seems to be not bad,
                        But even with sifiers, he has a limit on aviation fuel of 6-7 flights for the entire air group. With the Hellcats, if also in the role of active drummers, and not BVP, it will not be very much.


                        In general, the purpose of the discussion is to increase knowledge and understanding on both sides. For some reason, it seems to me that there is no growth in this regard. I PR at every opportunity
                        armouredcarriers.com but appears to be null.
                        I want to believe that I'm wrong.

                        So for me the problem of the British AV is the inability of the British to create naval aviation as a whole, relevant by the standards of TO. For their 30s concept and their 30s vehicles, these ships were perfect.


                        This is a common approach and seems to me to be fundamentally wrong. The creation of military equipment is a special case of product development. The ships were designed and built using the technologies of the late 30s, but intended for the war of the future... Henderson was a visionary like Jobs. And for the fact that the war did not confirm his calculations, there are no excuses as there would be no excuses for the iPhone in case of its failure. An aircraft carrier cannot be separated from an air group, just as a battleship cannot be separated from cannons.
                        Henderson wanted to book the Arc Royal as well. Fortunately, he was already too high on readiness. Otherwise, it would most likely have drowned faster and with greater casualties, and thus the swordfish that got to Bismarck might have to be sacrificed because of the armor. Or would not have had time to go to the Reynyubung at all.

                        If you compose a similarity of the SWOT analysis matrix for the projected armored boxes without taking into account the verification of the war, then you can see.
                        1. Bomb protection looks like a solid strong point
                        2. Protection against torpedoes weak side
                        3. Striking capabilities are the weak side (regardless of the steepness of the swordfish, since only 24 drummers were planned)
                        4. Important for the British seaworthiness Plus-minus. Not bad, but looks like a step back from Ark
                        5 Scaling possibilities limited by elevators and hangars is a weak point. This is despite the fact that the British already have many years of positive experience in operating Furies and the company with huge hangars and elevators.
                        6. Anti-aircraft guns are a definite plus
                        7. Planned combat stability - rather optimistic, but with reservations

                        That is, even in your assessment paradigm, the project initially looks very dubious. I deliberately did not evaluate the quality of the aircraft of the air group.


                        The success of all products is determined by afterthought -lesson learned, comparison of planned and achieved indicators.

                        1. Protection against bombs. In general, NOT achieved.
                        2. Protection against torpedoes has been generally achieved, although it has not been seriously tested. But since they did not suffer, then it was adequate. A plus.
                        3. Impact capabilities. Enough against the Italians. Failure against the Germans. Against the Japanese, a powerful unit is capable of performing only secondary missions even at the end of the war.
                        4. Seaworthiness. Turned out good to excellent
                        5. Scalability - from bad to failure.
                        6 Anti-aircraft guns are a solid plus.
                        7 .. Real combat stability. Against the Italians, yes, against the Germans, no. It turned out to be very good protection against kamikaze with fuel spills and the overwhelming impact of the aircraft engine. As part of my concept of evaluating success. Within your framework - the usual unplanned random luck like with the Essexes

                        Perhaps I will write an article about the Britons of the WWII period, fortunately the Midnake does not write about them and there is a vacuum in the general consciousness.
                        But I hope I won't argue about them anymore. laughing
                      17. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 15: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You got angry and talked about getting personal.

                        You should not formulate your claims against the arguments in such a way that they read as claims against your opponent. That is to say, one should separate the struggle with sin and the struggle with sinners.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        but in the elevators of the first three it was placed back to back. Therefore, it required very precise positioning, which made operational use difficult.

                        There were constant problems with operational use. Sarah as well. The possible and required speed of deck operations was greatly underestimated.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Here is drawn a blissful picture

                        You don't quite understand the accents. I meant that it was technically possible to create modern aircraft for a hangar of this height. But the Americans, of course, created aircraft for their own conditions, which could suit the British, might not fit. Somehow it didn't work out with the British planes.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        PR
                        armouredcarriers.com but appears to be null.

                        It is strange that you think this, considering that when discussing the size of air groups, I inserted quotes from it.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        F6F was delivered to the British and even knocked down messengers by acting from Aviks.

                        Yes, something overwhelmed me, you are right. It was also delivered in large quantities, 1182 pieces.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The ships were designed and built using the technologies of the late 30s, but they were intended for the war of the future. Henderson was a visionary like Jobs.

                        Listen, well, this is no gate. And these people forbid me pick one's nose investigate the enemies of the American people. The wrong visionaries have gone.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        If you compose a semblance of a SWOT analysis matrix

                        Catch the hitman!

                        In reality, there is a 23K limit and it has the following options:
                        Yorktown
                        Illustrious
                        Hiryu
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Bomb protection looks like a solid forte

                        Horizontal protection in general. For example, Yorktown had an 83mm belt, but the armored deck (below) was only 36mm STS.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        2. Protection against torpedoes weak side

                        Hiryu's weak point. Yorktown has a PTZ depth of up to 3,2 meters, an Englishman - almost 4.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Impact capabilities are the weak side (regardless of the steepness of the swordfish, since only 24 drummers were planned)

                        With the adoption of deck parks came the need to constantly shift aircraft forward and aft to allow landing and takeoff operations. While this required larger deck handling parties, it allowed the ship's air groups to be boosted to a much more useful 55-57 Corsairs and Avengers in 1945.

                        In 1944 HMS Illustrious had a total establishment force of 36 Corsairs and 27 Avengers allocated to (though not all carried by) the ship. This allowed Illustrious to deploy with either 36 Corsairs and 18 Avengers, or 27 Corsairs and 27 Avengers.

                        Despite US liaison officers repeatedly raising doubts about the capacity for the Illustrious class to launch a strike greater than 25 aircraft (some as late as 1945), HMS Illustrious - when carrying a force of 57 Corsairs and Barracudas - demonstrated her ability to launch 39 in a single range. Similar 'strike packages' would be launched by her sisters.

                        The following aviation compliment was disembarked from Enterprise on 7 September 1945 at NAS Barber's Point; [34]

                        United States Pacific Fleet - Navy Carrier Air Group 52 (CVGN-52) - NYD SEATTLE 1x Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat - ship's flight
                        VFN-52 - 22x F6F-5 + 15x F6F-5P
                        VTN-52 (torpedo bomber squadron) - 16x General Motors TBM-3E Avenger

                        Suddenly.
                        The wing of a real Englishman in 45 is stronger than the wing of a real American in 45. Who would have thought. OK, by September 45, the American grandfather is already waiting for demobilization, so he was not loaded. But even in his best years, the superiority was about one and a half.
                        Japanese - standard 18 + 18 + 18 + 9 spare. Not so bad for an Englishman, as is commonly believed.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Important for the British seaworthiness Plus-minus. Not bad, but looks like a step back from Ark

                        Against the background of the above, it is quite worthy.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Scalability limited by elevators and hangars is a weak point.

                        Translated into Russian, three elevators 14,6x13,7 are better than two elevators 13,5x6,6 meters. It's true. The Japanese also has 3 elevators.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        6. Anti-aircraft guns are a definite plus
                        7. Planned combat stability - rather optimistic, but with reservations

                        Quote: Engineer
                        That is, even in your assessment paradigm, the project initially looks very dubious.

                        Hmm. In what? Are there not enough elevators?
                      18. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 February 2021 17: 27
                        0
                        In reality, there is a 23K limit and it has the following options:
                        Yorktown
                        Illustrious
                        Hiryu

                        Ark Royal. This fundamentally changes the matter.
                        Now on tpyming. Illastries' design approved on July 21, 36
                        And by the end of 36, it is obvious even to the British that the limit of 23 thousand tons will not work. There was a full opportunity to throw in one and a half two tons for further optimization. But this is nit-picking.
                        Japanese - standard 18 + 18 + 18 + 9 spare. Not so bad for an Englishman, as is commonly believed.

                        Of these, according to Pinak's assessment, only 3. Can you rate the capacity of a full-fledged deck parking for yourself? Stunt on the brink of a foul
                        But even in his best years, the superiority was about one and a half.

                        So what is the point of arguing? I didn't say anything more. He only added that York was doing everything much faster. For protracted operations, there is much more fuel and ammunition.
                        Hmm. In what? Are there not enough elevators?

                        In the pre-war paradigm, an air group of 33-36 aircraft was placed in a secure hangar. That is, initially, they deliberately slaughtered the shock functions. The supply of fuel and ammunition was reduced based on the cut down air group.
                        At the same time, based on the staffing at the beginning of the war, 2 squadrons of torpedo bombers and only one fighter were planned more for strike functions.
                        The paradigm turned out to be completely unviable. I had to introduce deck parking as smart people proposed in 31 and seek reserves for fuel and ammunition.
                        Hiryu and Yorktown are looking at your statement with interest. Here, I'm sorry, I'll put a tick.

                        It is right). The armor never once saved the British from German bombs. Out of 12 cases. Once saved from an Italian fugasca and twice (or three times) from a Japanese 250 kg.
                        The random 3 inches of deck armor? No, you have not fully understood my concept. The York designers did not envision a fleet at sea concept. But the British designers were quite prepared for the fact that all kinds of garbage would fall on the decks. Kamikaze is the Japanese version of the guided bomb, so to speak.

                        All Brown stuff - 500 lb bombs and 6-inch rounds. Kamikaze, and even more so controlled shells, no one then took into account. Unrecognized and unaccounted for threats.
                        AB type Illustrious were squadron, not shock.

                        Squadron carriers do not exist. There are tasks of air defense, reconnaissance, strikes against bases and ships at sea, both with the support of the main forces of the fleet and in isolation from them. Any aircraft carrier can perform these tasks, but with varying degrees of success. Accordingly, the air group can vary for specific tasks.
                        I only counted three unstressed operations for aviks KF throughout the war.
                        To understand that the British themselves did not consider their aircraft carriers to be squadron, it is enough to look at their speed. It is noticeably larger than even the projected kings, which were to become the basis of battleship squadrons. The myth of a squadron aircraft carrier arose from the exotic and partly forced exercises of Mr. Cunningham in specific conditions. At the same time, the fact that Victories and Arc-Royal at the same time acted as part of small high-speed search and strike units is ignored. By the way, during the Cretan campaign, Formidebl also acted independently.
                        Additional light on what the British themselves thought of their aircraft carriers at the beginning, for example, 42 years old. spills the combat schedule of Sommerville's forces while trying to repel Nagumo's raid.
                        Compound A Indomitable, Formidable and only one Worspeight.
                        Compound B four R and old Hermes.
                        That is, as soon as the British had more than 1-2 aircraft carriers in the formation, they immediately began to form separate drums fists
                        About protection from torpedoes (this is not equal to PTZ, this is a complex metric) I will sign another time.
                      19. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 22: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Ark Royal. This fundamentally changes the matter.

                        Did the British make the best AB from Lex to cranes? From you? Of course I do!
                        Quote: Engineer
                        the limit of 23 thousand tons will not work. There was a full opportunity to throw one and a half two tons for further optimization

                        Che, you went wrong. Unlike LK, ap AB was not exaggerated, even Essex was made under 20K initially.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        in his best years, the superiority was about one and a half.

                        Superiority in air group size.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That is, initially, they deliberately slaughtered the shock functions. The supply of fuel and ammunition was reduced based on the cut down air group.

                        Yes, it turned out to be a mistake. Aviation fuel stock in York 600 thousand liters, Illustrious 230 thousand, Indomitable 342 thousand, Implacable 430 thousand Hangars in York 166,4х19,2х5,25 (3 195 sq.m.), Illustrious 139,6х18,9 , 4,3x2 (638 18 sq. M., Less than an American ... by 51,2%?), A second hangar 18,9x4,9x968 (2 sq. M. + 638 3 = 605 63,4) is added to Indomitable, what the hell , arithmetic is bourgeois pseudoscience), on Implacable the second hangar is 18,9x4,3x1198 (3 sq. m., the upper one is unchanged, in total 836 30, but the ceilings are too low. On the other hand, on British aircraft of the XNUMXs the planes turn back, not up).
                        Oh yes. Ark Royal. It has hangars 4/5 from the Midway hangar. Slightly lower, 4,88 versus 5,33.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The armor never once saved the British from German bombs. Out of 12 cases.

                        Which armored car sank 12 German bombs? I don't remember right away.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        All Brown stuff - 500 lb bombs and 6-inch rounds. Kamikaze, and even more so controlled shells, no one then took into account. Unrecognized and unaccounted for threats.

                        The deck was expected to resist a 500lb semi-armor piercing bomb dropped from below 7000ft and 250lb SAP bombs from below 11,500ft. It was calculated the deck could resist a 1000lb armor-piercing bomb only if it was dropped beneath 4500ft.

                        Against 6in shells, the hangar walls would resist fire from over 7000 yards and stop 4.7in shellfire from all ranges. The 3in deck became vulnerable to plunging 6in shells beyond 23,000 yards.

                        The weight of the Zero does not yet make it the equivalent of an armor-piercing bomb of the same weight. But the weight of the bombs was underestimated, it's true.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Formideble also acted independently.
                        ...
                        That is, as soon as the British had more than 1-2 aircraft carriers in the formation, they immediately began to form separate shock fists

                        Well, an independent aircraft carrier is not quite Feng Shui, even American.

                        You are right that life and a corrupt girl - arithmetic forced even the British to transfer AB from the "long arm of battleships" to the main demage dealer, for which the American was better prepared, and the Englishman much worse (than the Japanese).
                      20. Engineer
                        Engineer 9 February 2021 10: 56
                        0
                        Did the British make the best AB from Lex to cranes? From you? Of course I do!

                        Oh yes. Ark Royal. It has hangars 4/5 from the Midway hangar. Slightly lower, 4,88 versus 5,33.

                        How many times can I repeat that Ark is a good ship without reservations ?. Even considering its two huge flaws
                        Che, you went wrong. Unlike LK, ap AB was not exaggerated, even Essex was made under 20K initially.

                        it is not clear what caused the confusion here. Exaggerated unambiguously.
                        Mister Brown, you have the floor
                        The 1935 London conference (1936 Treaty not ratified) reduced the limit on individual ships
                        to 23,000 tons but removed the limit on total tonnage. By that time Ark Royal was committed to 22,000 tons.

                        And further
                        No aircraft carrier shall exceed 23,000 tons nor carry a gun over 6.1in. No.
                        more than ten guns of 5.25in or over is allowed.

                        I was already tired of recommending it for reading.
                        Yes, it turned out to be a mistake. Aviation fuel stock in York 600 thousand liters, Illustrious 230 thousand, Indomitable 342 thousand, Implacable 430 thousand Hangars in York 166,4х19,2х5,25 (3 195 sq. M.), Illustrious 139,6х18,9 , 4,3x2 (638 18 sq. M., Less than an American ... by 51,2%?), A second hangar 18,9x4,9x968 (2 sq. M. + 638 3 = 605 63,4) is added to Indomitable, what the hell , arithmetic is bourgeois pseudoscience), on Implacable the second hangar is 18,9x4,3x1198 (3 sq. m., the upper one is unchanged, in total 836 XNUMX, but the ceilings are too low.

                        Surprisingly, as soon as it came to vulgar numbers, everything began to fall into place. But do not even try to round up and hint at approximate equality out of habit, indicating that the hangar of York is only 18% larger. Rise up to the level, on the flight deck.

                        Comparison to scale. Check it out. The flight area of ​​York is 1.4 times larger. It is not stupid bottlenecks. Notice how the excellent anti-aircraft battery on the shave will ruin his flight deck.
                        I think with polutorokratnym general superiority York we were quick on the plane. But 30% on the sum of the two decks looks very close to reality
                        The implacable is not bad. I never wrote it down to suck. But he is much worse than Essex with which he must be compared. Your usual tricks about comparing bookmark dates are not accepted. The British were forced to freeze the second trio after laying, but the time is not lost, and spent on project dopilivanie
                        The British managed to spoil the Indomitable with one click - the rear lift serving both hangars was small, like on its predecessors. The front, large, was in the nose.
                        Which armored car sank 12 German bombs? I don't remember right away

                        Which one they got was put out of action. And in general, what a demagoguery, considering that not a single Amer was also sunk by bombs.

                        You needed to get rid of the rudiments of the type of aircraft carriers and destroyers slogans like the perfect carrier to Gibraltar, Malta, and the line will be the norm. And consider a duel against a closed hangar open
                      21. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 9 February 2021 15: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        How many times can I say Ark is a good ship without reservation?

                        It's always nice to find a good English ship later than Lizzie.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Exaggerated unambiguously.
                        Mister Brown, you have the floor

                        I do not see it in the above quote. All English ABs of the late 30s are under the 23K standard.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Surprisingly, as soon as it came to vulgar numbers, everything began to fall into place.

                        Yeah. Hangars of the last three Englishmen are larger in area.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Let's go up one level to the flight deck.

                        Why do you need it? Are we already talking about deck-based?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        But he is much worse than Essex with which he must be compared.

                        Why on earth do you compare a contractual ship with a non-contractual one? Hornet is the negotiated American.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The front, large, was in the nose.

                        Yes, a strange decision.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The British were forced to freeze the second trinity after the bookmark, but they did not lose time, but spent on finishing the project

                        VI has not changed. The revision of the project was expressed, for example, in reducing the height of the second hangar.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And in general, what a demagogy, considering that not a single Amer was sunk by bombs either.

                        It seems that these ships were hit by bombs, after which they sank a little. Yes, Yorke also managed to meet PL, but who here resorts to demagoguery?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You just have to get rid of the rudiments of the type of squadron aircraft carriers and slogans such as the ideal aircraft carrier on the Gibraltar-Malta line and there will be norms

                        Yes? Oh well.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The implacable is not bad. I never wrote it down to suck.

                        You, I see, are also slowly moving towards reality. Which more or less consisted in the fact that Henderson's visionary ideas lost to the not at all visionary idea of ​​"just more planes" from the Americans. Yes, that happens too. But the ideas, nevertheless, were not bad. Both sides understood this, as a result of which both shoved this understanding of theirs into the 40K VI in 42-43.
                      22. Engineer
                        Engineer 10 February 2021 14: 41
                        0
                        The situation finally went beyond the bounds of decency.
                        Ship with a standard displacement of 23400 on the project embedded in 1939 year (the second so generally after the beginning of the war), which has grown fat from additional equipment by the time the construction is completed, is declared contractual. Either underpants or a cross. Either not contractual, or contractual original project, but started by construction when the contracts became fiction, and then who is the judge for these clowns-angles? South Dakota's case has a direct competitor.
                        It's hot with Yorktown. Well, no one is immune from mistakes, no doubt, but the discussion continued, and at least you opened Vika. The least you'd expect from a Midnake fan

                        Now that's enough for sure
                      23. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 10 February 2021 21: 56
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The situation finally went beyond the bounds of decency.

                        I absolutely do not understand, - he said from above, - the reasons for such a harsh treatment of me

                        Something you are at ease. As far as I know, all the subjects of our dispute have long been melted into plowshares. Well, apart from 4 essexes.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The ship with a standard displacement of 23400 according to the project, laid down in 1939 (the second so in general after the beginning of the war), having grown fat from additional equipment by the time construction was completed, is declared contractual.

                        Of course negotiable.
                        Article 5
                        No aircraft-carrier shall exceed 23,000 tons (23,368 metric tons) standard displacement or carry a gun with a caliber exceeding 6.1 in. (155 mm.).

                        In general, a strange reproach from a fan of Essexes, for whom 27K was a purely theoretical figure. At the expense of the possibility of modernizing the project - you are certainly right looking from the 44th and hardly right looking from the 39th. Friend Lyon won't let you lie. Actually, situevina is similar to the best LK of all times and peoples, the retired mistress of the seas overestimated her health.

                        Quote: Engineer
                        South Dakota's case has a direct competitor.

                        )))
                        No, far from it.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The least you'd expect from a Midnake fan

                        You wanted to offend me again or what?
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 15: 40
            0
            Quote: Engineer
            Bomb protection. In general, NOT achieved.

            Hiryu and Yorktown are looking at your statement with interest. Here, I'm sorry, I'll put a tick.
            Quote: Engineer
            2. Protection against torpedoes has been generally achieved, although it has not been seriously tested. But since they did not suffer, then it was adequate. A plus.

            Check mark.
            Quote: Engineer
            4. Seaworthiness. Turned out good to excellent

            Check mark.
            Quote: Engineer
            5. Scalability - from bad to failure.

            OK, cross.
            Quote: Engineer
            6 Anti-aircraft guns are a solid plus.

            check mark
            Quote: Engineer
            7 .. Real combat stability. Against the Italians, yes, against the Germans, no. It turned out to be very good protection against kamikaze with fuel spills and the overwhelming impact of the aircraft engine. As part of my concept of evaluating success. Within your framework - the usual unplanned random luck like with the Essexes

            The random 3 inches of deck armor? No, you have not fully understood my concept. The York designers did not envision a fleet at sea concept. But the British designers were quite prepared for the fact that all kinds of garbage would fall on the decks. Kamikaze is the Japanese version of the guided bomb, so to speak.
            Quote: Engineer
            That is, even in your assessment paradigm, the project initially looks very dubious.

            I don’t see it yet.
            Quote: Engineer
            3. Impact capabilities. Enough against the Italians. Failure against the Germans. Against the Japanese, a powerful unit is capable of performing only secondary missions even at the end of the war.

            This is the subject of our strange dispute. AB type Illustrious were squadron, not shock. I am ready to consider their shock in the understanding of the war against the possibility of zero but I do not think this is their disadvantage... Worse, Yorkies were also squadron AB, and as squadron AB they are definitely worse.

            You say, looking from 44, that the war demanded a rebalancing of the AB in the shock group, in connection with which the imbalance of the Americans in the air group became their advantage, and vice versa, the advantages of the British became disadvantages. This is so, I did not argue with that. So I talked about successful American AV.

            Essex separately, which I did not touch on here. Essex is a dumb mobilization project. In this capacity, he turned out to be quite successful, one cannot but admit it. However, I find it a big setback that 3 years after Vinson's second act, which provided for its construction, and 2 years after all restrictions were lifted, the Americans had nothing better than a dumb mobilization project.
          3. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 8 February 2021 16: 34
            -1
            Quote: Engineer
            Due to the shortage of American torpedoes, Avengers were used 90 percent as bombers.

            More precisely, because of the disgusting quality of American airborne torpedoes. The "torpedo scandal" in aviation was even worse than that of the submariners. In July 1941, only 10% of dropped torpedoes went normally. By the middle of 1943, the percentage of successful discharges had risen to as much as 31%. That is why the Avengers were launched with a bomb load, and their crews learned a gentle dive.
            Moreover, the dimensions of the weapons compartment on the Avenger were designed specifically for the Mark 13, which was notable for its short length - therefore, the Yankees could not borrow a working air torpedo from any of the Allies or neutrals.
          4. Engineer
            Engineer 8 February 2021 16: 54
            0
            As they say in the army, everything is right, but wrong.
            It was just by the end of 44 that it became clear that the barracuda, the main drummer of the British, did not export the tropics. They were urgently exchanged for Avengers and faced with a shortage of torpedoes and their lack of access to the carcass of the "avenger" This is the main reason.
            At the end of 44, with torpedoes from amers within the bounds of decency.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 February 2021 07: 29
    0
    Question. Was it possible to protect the extremities while maintaining the overall mass of the armor?
    On battleships of the Yamato class, the citadel was protected by armor even from below, with plates 50-80 mm thick.
  • Avior
    Avior 6 February 2021 12: 22
    +8
    Everyone knows how to win with a 10-fold superiority even without the Americans.
    but not everyone knows how to provide a 10-fold superiority.
    If we could, we would provide ...
    1. Santa Fe
      7 February 2021 04: 36
      0
      Not knowing, but understanding a 10-fold superiority is a sign of a very strange situation

      And this is not the economy, in the usual sense of the commodity-money. How the United States achieved this - the prerequisites are known, but how exactly it works, they probably don't even know on Wall Street
  • Doctor
    Doctor 6 February 2021 12: 38
    0
    Japanese anti-aircraft guns are mercilessly criticized for a strange set of fighting qualities, in which they took the worst from the Oerlikon (weak ammunition, short firing range) and Bofors (significant weight of the installation and low rate of fire).

    It seems that an assault rifle in caliber 30 with a rate of fire of about 200 per minute would be optimal for WWII.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 53
      +3
      Quote: Arzt
      the optimal would be an assault rifle in caliber 30, with a rate of fire of about 200 per minute.

      The British experimented on this matter. In order to ensure a confident defeat of the aircraft with one shot, 37-40 mm are needed.
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 6 February 2021 14: 01
      +2
      Quote: Arzt
      It seems that an assault rifle in caliber 30 with a rate of fire of about 200 per minute would be optimal for WWII.
      For the fleet - 76 mm (to defeat dive bombers, so that they reach the height of the transition to a dive), but they didn't really have time with it: I heard about them only on 18000-ton light air defense cruisers and on de moines.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 14: 15
        +1
        Quote: bk0010
        For the fleet - 76 mm (to defeat dive bombers, so that it reaches the height of the transition to a dive), but they did not really have time with it

        Post-war weapon
        BuOrd rushed this through the design phase, with the first prototype being ready for test firing on 1 September 1945. The end of the war slowed development and resources were diverted to the more potent 3 "/ 70 (7.62 cm) design. As a result , it was not until 1948 that this weapon was delivered to the fleet in quantity.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 6 February 2021 12: 39
    +1
    Task Force is absolutely the ultimate power. Like the 8th US Air Force.
    But even if instead of him there was only one Essex on the way of Yamato, the death of the battleship would be inevitable, it would simply stretch out for a couple of days. Instead of quartering, there would be a painful and tedious death from blood loss.
    1. Santa Fe
      6 February 2021 13: 07
      0
      In a day, he would have thrown himself aground near Okinawa and began to shake the nerves of the Americans in the form of an impregnable battery

      Would have bothered to mess with him like TKR Myoko in Singapore
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 6 February 2021 13: 20
        +2
        Roll, trim, no energy, no spotters, no speed?
        So you admit that even one Essex will unwind it?
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 57
        +4
        Quote: Santa Fe
        stranded near Okinawa and began to shake the Americans' nerves in the form of an impregnable battery

        Would be sick of bothering with him

        Seriously? How many torpedoes from submarines, electric vehicles and boats would the Americans have loaded on a stationary ship on the very first night?
      3. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 6 February 2021 16: 22
        +3
        In the form of a battery, this would be a gesture of despair and suicide. To feed, load 460-mm ammunition is not a box of cartridges to drag to a trench. The 305-mm battery near Sevastopol in the form of a battleship tower was not much more effective than the battery of 152-mm howitzers. As well as the German supergun in the same place. Even with such forces, the Japanese could look for weak points in the Pacific Ocean for using the Yamato group, and not climb with bare heels on Vasily Ivanovich with a saber. A pinpoint-and-flight strategy would have prolonged the agony.
      4. mmaxx
        mmaxx 6 February 2021 18: 19
        +2
        Yes, they would have driven a dozen battleships and practiced shooting at a stationary target.
        Even non-penetration (which would not have happened anyway) of the citadel and towers did not help. What is artillery without fire control was demonstrated by "Bismarck."
        I was always surprised by the consumption of ammunition of American battleships during shelling of the coast. They didn't save at all. Everything to the bottom.
      5. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 February 2021 17: 18
        -1
        Quote: Santa Fe
        In a day, he would have thrown himself aground near Okinawa and began to shake the nerves of the Americans in the form of an impregnable battery

        On a stationary target, even LeMey's four-engined engines will not miss. More precisely, the majority will miss, but in the end they will be killed purely due to statistics.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 6 February 2021 12: 59
    +14
    What is the author's naval horror turned out. The truth about what the author wanted to specifically tell, everyone can think out for himself.
    The Fast Carrier Task Force was created not at all for the fight with the Yamato, in January 1944, but for the war with Japan. "Yamato" was sunk already in April 1945, moreover, not all TF 58, but two working groups
    TG 58.1 and 58.3.
    The full Fast Carrier Task Force was never used. Working groups were formed from its composition to carry out specific tasks.
    The Americans believed that “the ideal composition of a fast aircraft carrier task force is four aircraft carriers, six to eight auxiliary ships and at least 18 destroyers, preferably 24. More than four aircraft carriers in a task group cannot be effectively used. Less than four aircraft carriers require uneconomical use of auxiliary ships and escort ships ".
    And the author's reproach towards the Americans about the qualitative and quantitative superiority is generally incomprehensible.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 13: 37
      +7
      Quote: Undecim
      The truth about what the author wanted to specifically tell, everyone can think out for himself.

      Well, this is a well-known topic. Mr. Kaptsov is trying in rather strange ways to prove that LK in general and Yamato in particular are a wunderwaffe, and that he was drowned by cheaters.
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 6 February 2021 14: 03
      0
      Quote: Undecim
      The truth about what the author wanted to specifically tell, everyone can think out for himself.
      Everyone has known this for a long time, the author's concept: "Armor rules".
  • iskanderzp
    iskanderzp 6 February 2021 13: 12
    +1
    If there were even three times fewer aircraft carriers there, this would not have changed the fate of the Yamato. By 1945, the battleships finally ceded the role of "Chief Naval Scarecrow" to His Majesty the Aircraft Carrier. And they themselves went to the dustbin of history (and often to the seabed). Iowa's "centenarians" are an exception that proves the rule. It is rather surprising that Oleg, known for his love of battleships, led readers to this conclusion ...)))
    1. Santa Fe
      7 February 2021 04: 44
      0
      "The main naval scarecrow" to His Majesty the Aircraft Carrier.

      Has anyone built aircraft carriers after 45?

      When the next project was laid after Midui (three of which were dismantled right on the slipway)

      USSR 40 years passed between the end of WWII and the first AV
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 February 2021 17: 23
        0
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Has anyone built aircraft carriers after 45?

        USA and Britain.
        Quote: Santa Fe
        When the next project was laid after Midui (three of which were dismantled right on the slipway)

        When the army, air force and navy stopped tearing each other's throats and finally divided up the reduced post-war budget. As a result, the fleet did not receive the coveted United States, but in 1952 the first two of the four Forrestals were laid down.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 February 2021 19: 11
          -1
          Two ships laid down after a 7-year hiatus

          The rest, except Britain and France, did not develop the topic at all. Where is the vaunted superiority of AB over other classes of ships, statements that it is impossible to fight without them

          The surface fleet has not disappeared anywhere, hundreds of non-aircraft carriers

          Complex transformations of the fleet took place, which at the philistine level boil down to replacing "battleships with aircraft carriers"
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 6 February 2021 13: 25
    +1
    Story in the style of "Proud stupidity against Zerg".
  • mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 6 February 2021 15: 46
    +1
    Thank you, an interesting placement of accents, but the whole situation is considered from an unusual angle. The author managed to convey the philosophy of the war in the Pacific.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 6 February 2021 18: 21
    +1
    The death of Yamato deserves respect. There is zero hope, but if you have the strength you have to go into battle.
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 6 February 2021 21: 16
    +1
    In this battle, according to my information, there were not "11 aircraft carrier groups" (what is that?), But 14 aircraft carriers from this "task force" (the 15th was burned out). The Americans had no "battle cruisers" at all. There were 16 cruisers of various types and 64 destroyers. In the air defense of the ships, shells with radio fuses were used, which, apparently, made American ships less vulnerable even to kamikazes, unlike any Yamat, Musasei, and Bismarck. And all the aircraft carriers, including various escorts and slow-moving ones, the Americans collected about a hundred from Okinawa during its capture. The troops sailed across the Pacific Ocean, i.e. across half the planet, on about 1200 ships, and ocean, of course.
    1. Santa Fe
      7 February 2021 01: 52
      0
      The Americans had no "battle cruisers" at all.

      type Alaska
      shells with radio fuses were used, which, apparently, made American ships less vulnerable even to kamikaze, unlike any Yamat, Musasei, and Bismarcs.

      The radar fuse cut the consumption by half for 1 shot down aircraft (~ 550 pieces instead of 1100), but, of course, it was not a superweapon

      Shooting down planes quickly did not work, the ships continued to burn like matches. And against the kamikaze air defense was generally useless
      1. Falcon5555
        Falcon5555 7 February 2021 03: 17
        0
        They called them "Alaska-class big cruisers".
        The radio fuse was apparently extremely useful. The term "superweapon" has been compromised, so I will refrain from voicing it. The planes, of course, went astray, and the ships did not burn like matches. Here, according to Sherman, "We destroyed 11 enemy aircraft during the day with only naval artillery fire" (this is about the task force on April 11, 45, page 408 in my publication). There are, I remember, at least a few videos of how "kamikazes" are knocked off course by anti-aircraft fire and they do not hit the ships.
        1. Santa Fe
          7 February 2021 04: 21
          0
          In Russian-language literature, Alaska is called linear

          It is clear that 34 tonnes of Alaska have nothing to do among conventional MCTs. Historical parallel - the description fits the battle cruisers of WWII and the interwar period
          There are, I remember, at least a few videos of how "kamikazes" are knocked off course by anti-aircraft fire and they do not hit the ships.

          Others hit 300 times
          the ships did not burn like matches

          How they burned
          Minimum 4 heavy aircraft carriers - scrapped
          The radio fuse was apparently extremely useful.

          Projectile consumption 500 is better than 1000
          But under the indicated conditions, both figures are a failure of the air defense
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 7 February 2021 13: 03
            +1
            Quote: Santa Fe
            In Russian-language literature, Alaska is called linear

            In the specialized period, WWII is classified as severe.
            1. Santa Fe
              7 February 2021 13: 08
              0
              What do those specialized sources say about Scharnhorst?)))
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 7 February 2021 13: 16
                0
                Quote: Santa Fe
                What do those specialized sources say about Scharnhorst?)))

                Battleship. :)
                1. Santa Fe
                  8 February 2021 01: 13
                  0
                  So Alaska is a ship of the line

                  according to sources
                  1. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 17: 59
                    +1
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    So Alaska is a ship of the line

                    according to sources

                    This is your idea and nothing more ... :)
                    1. Santa Fe
                      8 February 2021 19: 12
                      0
                      Yes, that's my conclusion

                      Why Sharhorst is a battleship, and Alaska is not a battleship. They don't have much difference
            2. Undecim
              Undecim 7 February 2021 20: 03
              +2
              The Alaska-class was never classified as battle cruisers by the Americans.
              1. Santa Fe
                8 February 2021 07: 27
                0
                The Americans came up with the designation for them large cruisers

                It makes no sense to translate literally. In terms of its characteristics, Alaska coincides with the ships, which we usually call battle cruisers (aka Scharnhorst and Dunkirk).

                A fast protected ship, whose characteristics tend to those of battleships, at a noticeably smaller size
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 18: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  In terms of their characteristics, Alaska coincides with the ships, which we usually call battle cruisers (aka Scharnhorst and Dunkirk).

                  I don’t know about YOU, but in the USSR during WWII (as well as in the building countries themselves), "dunkerki" and "shanrhorsty" were classified as battleships ....
                  The rest is secondary.

                  If you don’t believe the Soviet military specialists, look, for example, Jane.
                  1. Santa Fe
                    8 February 2021 18: 57
                    0
                    I believe in facts about displacement and ship performance

                    The rest is secondary
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 19: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Santa Fe
                      I believe in facts about displacement and ship performance

                      It seems to me that 80 years ago, naval specialists were more qualified to determine which class this or that ship belongs to ... :)
                      1. Santa Fe
                        8 February 2021 19: 15
                        -1
                        Vaughn from below Alexey RA gave an example with a "heavy cruiser" with a main battery 380 mm
                      2. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 19: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Vaughn from below Alexey RA gave an example with a "heavy cruiser" with a main battery 380 mm

                        AND? Internal classification as it is ...
                        If we bring everything to a general classification, then there is no need to suck anything out of the finger, but to take contracts that formally (because the procedure for their denunciation / correction was not followed) continued to operate until December 31, 1942.
                      3. Santa Fe
                        8 February 2021 19: 32
                        0
                        Then why this conversation about "big cruisers"
                        Internal classification. but the reality is a ship that a couple of years earlier could have been classified as a battleship
                      4. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 19: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Then why this conversation about "big cruisers"

                        About the same as the assignment of "Scharnhorst" and "Dunkirk" to battle cruisers. :)
                      5. Santa Fe
                        8 February 2021 22: 12
                        0
                        I am for common sense

                        If Alaska is similar in characteristics to Charles and Gnei, then they are classmates

                        And it is the German problem that the line forces of Germany consisted of 4 ships, two of which were undersized. For solidity, classified as battleships
                      6. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 9 February 2021 18: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        I am for common sense

                        As you wish... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        If Alaska is similar in characteristics to Charles and Gnei, then they are classmates

                        It is especially interesting to compare the booking ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        For solidity, classified as battleships

                        This is purely your opinion. :)
                      7. Santa Fe
                        10 February 2021 03: 35
                        0
                        Jane's handbook arguments are over

                        You still decided to proceed from the characteristics
                        It is especially interesting to compare the booking ... :)

                        You are especially interested in booking as belt thickness is the only noticeable difference between Shanhorst and Alaska;)

                        In terms of horizontal defense thickness, Alaska will suddenly win. Gk tower defense - identical

                        Are you also interested in comparing, for example, the main caliber? Or a power plant. Or displacement

                        Scharnhorst did not fit into the battleships due to the weak main battery. And Alaska cannot be written there. In history, there was a division of large ships into LKR and LK, for similar reasons

                        Therefore, the use of the term LKR is justified here. Contains more meaning than "internal classification" or the classification of Alaska as a conventional SRT, and Scharnhorst as a battleship
                      8. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 10 February 2021 18: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Jane's handbook arguments are over

                        If necessary, you can continue.
                        But I don't see the point ...;)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        You still decided to proceed from the characteristics

                        You don’t understand anything else ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        You are especially interested in booking as belt thickness is the only noticeable difference between Shanhorst and Alaska;)

                        Are the booking schemes themselves identical? :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        In terms of horizontal defense thickness, Alaska will suddenly win. Gk tower defense - identical

                        Think suddenly from the performance of the theater visibility.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Are you also interested in comparing, for example, the main caliber? Or a power plant. Or displacement

                        Does it bother you? Do you want to talk about it?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Scharnhorst did not fit into the battleships due to the weak main battery.

                        This is your very IMHA ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        And Alaska cannot be written there.

                        If you use the criteria of the existing treaties, then it is quite a battleship. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        In history, there was a division of large ships into LKR and LK, for similar reasons

                        Somewhat opposite. :)
                      9. Santa Fe
                        11 February 2021 02: 59
                        0
                        330 kg versus 870 ... 1220 kg, the difference in the mass of ammunition is 11 '' and 15-16 ''

                        The only thing that shared Scharnhorst with battleships of the 30-40s. - its vertical protection. But a price was paid for it .. Battleship protection indicators with a displacement of 38k were expensive: the main armored deck was below the waterline and there were problems with seaworthiness, due to the low side

                        Further, it can be classified as you like. But the differences from LK 30-40gg. so noticeable that they always write battleship / LKR (or battle cruiser)

                        The term "battle cruiser" is used, everyone is familiar, everyone knows what it roughly means, there is no need to invent a new one. Scharnhorst was really faster than many LK 30-40gg

                        Alaska - the same 34k ship, with a performance rebalance. But the sum does not change from the permutation of the terms
                      10. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 11 February 2021 18: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        330 kg against 870 ... 1220 kg, the difference in the mass of ammunition is 11 '' and 15-16''

                        Alaska? :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        with a displacement of 38k


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Alaska - the same ship 34k,

                        Tell me, for what reason do you operate with full and not standard displacement?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        But a price was paid for it ..

                        A banal construction overload, which was a secret for no one (at least in Germany).

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The term "battle cruiser" is used, everyone is familiar, everyone knows what it roughly means, there is no need to invent a new one. Scharnhorst was really faster than many LK 30-40gg

                        If a ship is classified as a battleship, why multiply entities? ..
                      11. Santa Fe
                        12 February 2021 05: 03
                        0
                        If a ship is classified as a battleship, why multiply entities?

                        Dunkirk, Scharnhorst and Alaska are intermediate between TKR and LC

                        “In the naval literature, the definition of a" battle cruiser "is widespread in relation to a number of ship designs that were built, under construction or just being designed in the 1930s - 1940s. These projects fall into two groups:

                        Small battleships built for special tactical missions, as well as financial or political constraints;

                        A kind of supercruisers designed mainly for the destruction of heavy cruisers "
                        Alaska?

                        Battleships have 30-40gg
                        Tell me, for what reason do you operate with full and not standard displacement?

                        Full I / O gives a clearer view of performance
                        Standard in / and Scharnhorst and Alaska are identical
                        Banal construction overload

                        The ships with a displacement of 45-50k did not have such problems and compromises.

                        Scharhorst paid a lot for the "battleship" level of protection with a much lower displacement
                      12. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 12 February 2021 11: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Dunkirk, Scharnhorst and Alaska are intermediate between TKR and LC

                        Your quote from Wikipedia is missing one important word in "MODERN literature "
                        The contemporaries of these ships did not have any problems with classification.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Full I / O gives a clearer view of performance

                        You know, this is a new word in shipbuilding ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Standard in / and Scharnhorst and Alaska are identical

                        Scharnhorst - standard at the time of commissioning - 31552 t.
                        Alaska - standard at the time of commissioning - 27200 tons.
                        Are you talking about the Scharnhorst's design standard displacement of 26000 tons?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The ships with a displacement of 45-50k did not have such problems and compromises.

                        Because with a larger displacement, the design process is somewhat easier.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Scharhorst paid a lot for the "battleship" level of protection with a much lower displacement

                        Yes ... paid. Due to the loss of weight discipline in the design and construction for 15 years of "downtime" of the German shipbuilding in the creation of large warships.
                      13. Santa Fe
                        12 February 2021 11: 44
                        0
                        Contemporaries were preparing for battle. And they knew who was worth what. Scharnhorst was created as a rival to Dunkirk, and not to the British line forces. Alaska was also in no hurry to fight in linear battles
                        You know, this is a new word in shipbuilding

                        Full v / and allows you to estimate fuel reserves
                        Alaska - standard at the time of commissioning - 27200 tons.


                        Because with a larger displacement, the design process is somewhat easier.

                        Because load items are nonlinearly related
                        40% of armor for a ship 30k and 45k are not the same
                      14. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 12 February 2021 12: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        And they knew who was worth what. Scharnhorst was created as a rival to Dunkirk, and not to the British line forces.

                        Probably news to you, but Dunkirk is a battleship. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Full v / and allows you to estimate fuel reserves

                        If you do not know the standard, then it does not allow.

                        As for the performance characteristics, then I believe Wright somehow more ...


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Because load items are nonlinearly related
                        40% of armor for a ship 30k and 45k are not the same

                        By weight - naturally. :)
                        And the functional dependence will be linear. :)
                      15. Santa Fe
                        13 February 2021 08: 35
                        0
                        but Dunkirk is a battleship. :)

                        Not an argument at all. Dunkirk was created in response to Deutschland

                        led to the creation of a ship unable to withstand an artillery duel with the majority modern battleships... Only modernized Italian battleships with 320-mm guns of the Giulio Cesare and Andrea Doria types, Japanese of the Congo type, as well as the German Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and American Alaska types (in fact large cruisers)

                        Scharnhorst, Dunkirk, Alaska - three projects with a displacement of ~ 30k, whose characteristics did not allow to engage in battle on an equal footing with real battleships, their peers. for all of them, the notation LKR is valid
                        If you do not know the standard, then it does not allow.

                        When comparing projects, the total in / and indicates the limit of all load items
                        And the functional dependence will be linear. :)

                        Will not. If you spend 30% on defense on a ship with a displacement of 40k, then there will be no reserves for armament, as in the LK with 8-9 guns 15-16 dm

                        And even with this compromise, as the example of Scharnhorst shows, there was still an overload, a low side with all the consequences
                      16. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 13 February 2021 10: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Not an argument at all. Dunkirk was created in response to Deutschland

                        So what?
                        The French classify it as a battleship.
                        According to the treaties in force, he is a battleship.
                        The rest is fantasy.
                        And what he could or could not - "on the conscience" of the developers of OTZ.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        for all of them, the notation LKR is valid

                        For you - maybe ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        When comparing projects, the total in / and indicates the limit of all load items

                        How do you determine the size of this load?
                        Nominally, we have two "Washington cruisers" of 10000 tons: "Northampton" and "Takao", their total displacement, say 11420 tons and 15625 tons, respectively.
                        Can you analyze the load based on these numbers only? ;)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Will not. If you spend 30% on defense on a ship with a displacement of 40k, then there will be no reserves for armament, as in the LK with 8-9 guns 15-16 dm

                        Again: a question for the OTZ developers. They ordered such a battleship - they received it. When they needed another, they ordered the Bismarck, then the N39. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        And even with this compromise, as the example of Scharnhorst shows, there was still an overload, a low side with all the consequences

                        Construction, but not design. That being said, there are two big differences.
                      17. Santa Fe
                        13 February 2021 11: 35
                        0
                        The French classify it as a battleship.
                        According to the treaties in force, he is a battleship.

                        But I didn't even count on engaging in battle with linear forces

                        Deutschland was considered the calculated enemy
                        their full displacement, say 11420 tons and 15625 tons, respectively.

                        These ships also have a couple of thousand tons of different values ​​of the standard w / and

                        I prefer to give full displacement, as it takes into account all load items. There are examples when the standard displacement is the same, but the total displacement is noticeably different

                        Can such a moment be ignored?
                        OTZ. They ordered such a battleship - they received it.

                        You might think if you ordered 4 main battery towers with 380 mm, it would fit on the Scharnhorst
                        Construction, but not design.

                        Undoubtedly, the designers did not know where the ship's waterline passes.
                        And how does it match the main armor deck - above or below
                      18. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 13 February 2021 12: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        But I didn't even count on engaging in battle with linear forces

                        Can you see the French sources where this is said?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        These ships also have a couple of thousand tons of different values ​​of the standard w / and

                        And then you suddenly remembered the standard displacement. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        There are examples when the standard displacement is the same, but the total displacement is noticeably different

                        For example?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        You might think if you ordered 4 main battery towers with 380 mm, it would fit on the Scharnhorst

                        The Bayern did fit. :)
                        Again, the question is what will be indicated in the OTZ.
                        When designing the "battleship" (future) "Deutschland", the Germans in 10000 tons managed to pack 2x2-380 mm with a 200-mm belt.

                        Quote: Santa Fe

                        Undoubtedly, the designers did not know where the ship's waterline passes.
                        And how does it match the main armor deck - above or below

                        The designers knew, but if the ship is overloaded during construction by 3000 tons, even a decrease in the thickness of the main armor belt by 30 mm will not save. The ship will land 1 m deeper.
                      19. Santa Fe
                        14 February 2021 07: 37
                        0
                        Can you see the French sources where this is said?

                        Well, this is already a task for you

                        Prove that the ships 30k and 45k were created for the same tasks
                        For example?

                        Takao and Zara
                        The Bayern did fit. :)

                        Bayern is not a battleship of the 40s
                        Again, the question is what will be indicated in the OTZ.

                        For the 45k battleship, the OTZ indicates the same, plus 15 '' caliber

                        OTZ Scharnhorst meant the construction of a class below the battleship
                        When designing the "battleship" (future) "Deutschland", the Germans in 10000 tons managed to pack 2x2-380 mm with a 200-mm belt.

                        The larger the ship, the greater% of its displacement is allocated for weapons and armor. For battleships, this value begins to prevail over the mass of the hull and mechanisms.

                        At Scharnhorst, to ensure protection at the level of the LC, with all belts of 350 mm, 40% of the displacement (standard) was spent on protection

                        For such a kid, a lot, but it has been achieved by reducing other load items. % Hulls and weapons

                        Taking into account the smaller size of the Scharnhorst itself, there was an incomparable difference in the main caliber with the LK
                      20. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 14 February 2021 13: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Well, this is already a task for you
                        Prove that the ships 30k and 45k were created for the same tasks

                        Nice try to transplant a monkey.
                        But wipe it down - I won't do the job for you. ;)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Takao and Zara

                        What displacement did you take for Takao?
                        I suspect it's lung. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Bayern is not a battleship of the 40s

                        This does not change the essence: 4x2-380 mm can be accommodated in 31000 tons of standard displacement.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        OTZ Scharnhorst meant the construction of a class below the battleship

                        Can you document it?
                        Or again, "search for yourself"?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        At Scharnhorst, to ensure protection at the level of the LC, with all belts of 350 mm, 40% of the displacement (standard) was spent on protection

                        Probably because they built a battleship, don't you think?
                        We would like LKR, they wouldn’t steam up and put a belt not 320 mm, but for example 220 ...
                      21. Santa Fe
                        15 February 2021 08: 26
                        0
                        I won't do the work for you. ;)

                        The monographs of Russian authors indicate Dunkirk - the answer to Deutschland

                        You think that there is something in the French sources that will confirm your point of view. Dunkirk with a main battery 330 mm is a full-fledged battleship, comparable to other representatives of this class, built in 30-40.

                        Well then, search and find why I need to look for data in favor of the opponent
                        What displacement did you take for Takao?

                        Suliga indicates the standard
                        4x2-380 mm can be accommodated in 31000 tons of standard displacement.

                        Then you have to forget about the belt 350 mm or 30 knots.

                        Ships belonging to battleships 30-40x combined all the above parameters. With a displacement of 45+ thousand tons, of course
                        Can you document it?

                        German 11-inch ammunition weight 330 kilograms
                      22. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 15 February 2021 18: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Well then, search and find why I need to look for data in favor of the opponent

                        I assumed such an answer. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Suliga indicates the standard

                        Are you sure that Suliga translated Lacroix correctly?
                        Lacroix points to 12986 tons ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        or 30 knots

                        The Germans quite themselves considered this option. :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        German 11-inch ammunition weight 330 kilograms

                        And how does this prevent a ship from fighting in a linear battle?
                      23. Santa Fe
                        16 February 2021 07: 16
                        0
                        Are you sure that Suliga translated Lacroix correctly?
                        Lacroix points to 12986 tons ... :)

                        Takao had a longer range than Zara = more fuel on board

                        When assessing the standard displacement, how can this characteristic of the ship be taken into account?

                        13k standard w / i - upon commissioning or after upgrades. By the end of the war, the fuel supply was reduced in favor of "iron" (installation of boules, new air defense points)
                        The Germans quite themselves considered this option.

                        In that case, they rebuild a ship that is not equal to peers belonging to the LC class.

                        Battleships of the mid-30s-40s, Richelieu, Littorio, Bismarck, King George V, Vanguard, all Americans - had a similar set of parameters: armor protection, speed, caliber from 15 '' (King George - 14 inches, but 10 barrels). Yamato with 18 '' - upper limit.
                        With a displacement of more than 45k (Yamato, Iowa - much more)

                        Could Scharnhorst be considered a representative of the LC class, if he is different and inferior to other projects in one or more important parameters. Further, the Germans could puff out their cheeks and classify it as they like.
                        And how does this prevent a ship from fighting in a linear battle?

                        What a stupid question. Compare the power of 330 and 870 kg shells

                        In practice, Charles and Gnaeus fled twice when meeting a 15 '' enemy
                      24. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 16 February 2021 18: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        What a stupid question. Compare the power of 330 and 870 kg shells

                        No less stupid answer, sorry ... :)

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        In practice, Charles and Gnaeus fled twice when meeting a 15 '' enemy

                        In practice, Lutyens had the appropriate orders.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 8 February 2021 22: 10
    0
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    continued to operate until 31 December 1942.

    Capital ships are surface vessels of war belonging to one of the two following sub-categories:

    Surface vessels of war, other than aircraft-carriers, auxiliary vessels, or capital ships of sub-category (b), the standard displacement of which exceeds 10,000 tons (10,160 metric tons) or which carry a gun with a caliber exceeding 8 in. (203 mm.);

    Surface vessels of war, other than aircraft-carriers, the standard displacement of which does not exceed 8,000 tons (8,128 metric tons) and which carry a gun with a caliber exceeding 8 in. (203 mm.).
    ...
    No capital ship of sub-category (a), the standard displacement of which is less than 17,500 tons (17,780 metric tons), shall be laid down or acquired prior to 1 January 1943.

    No capital ship, the main armament of which consists of guns of less than 10 in. (254 mm.) Caliber, shall be laid down or acquired prior to 1 January 1943.


    What is the dispute about? About the term "LKR"?
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 9 February 2021 18: 30
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    What is the dispute about? About the term "LKR"?

    Rather, what to relate to what ...
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 9 February 2021 18: 54
    0
    In the case of Alaska, the definition of "eating candy" is most appropriate. "Sleep of Reason" is too pretentious for such a craft.
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 8 February 2021 00: 32
    +1
    Quote: Santa Fe
    In Russian-language literature, Alaska is called linear
    They know better. The "Russian-language literature" did not have battle cruisers at all, and there were no heavy ones, and there were no normal battleships, and those two that remained from decaying tsarism and looked more like coastal defense battleships stood idle throughout the war, and one of them was destroyed by the Germans about in half with an airstrike. And so the "Russian-language literature" tells the country, which had more than a hundred aircraft carriers, about 26 battleships, etc.: "You named it wrong ... something there." "And you have an air defense failure" belay
    1. Santa Fe
      8 February 2021 01: 08
      -1
      No need to unwind the snot here. Uvas has something to add on the topic

      FACT - 34k tonnes of displacement, GK12 inches. The ship had other capabilities than the 10k ton cruisers. Its performance tends towards battleships

      Personal names and titles are not translated from English, everything else can and should be translated.

      American "big cruisers" sounds ugly and loses its meaning in Russian. We have such ships (Scharnhorst, Alaska) called battle cruisers
      Based primarily on their characteristics

      The fact that we did not have our own fleet then does not interfere with studying the experience of others
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 8 February 2021 17: 39
    0
    Quote: Santa Fe
    In Russian-language literature, Alaska is called linear

    Yes, yes, yes ... and the domestic "Kronstadts" and "Stalingrad" are called heavy cruisers.
    Project 69I with its six 380-mm main guns looks especially good in the KRT class. laughing
  • Eug
    Eug 7 February 2021 12: 56
    0
    In the situation with the Yamato, the Anglo-Saxons abandoned their typical cost-benefit approach, and applied the Russian approach “at any cost” ... fortunately, the economy allowed.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 8 February 2021 14: 07
    0
    In the original - Task Force (TF) 58 or "Teffi 58".

    EMNIP, the term "Taffy" usually referred to the numbered subgroups of a large Task Force (such as TF 58.1 or 77.4), and not to the compound as a whole. Sprague in the famous battle was commanded by Taffy 77.4.
    Destroyers were contemptuously called "cans", they were considered consumables. They were placed in pickets in the most dangerous directions in such a way that single ships would certainly attract the attention of the kamikaze.

    The task of the EM RLD was not to attract attacks. Their task was to expand the radar coverage area at low altitudes (solving the notorious problem of the radio horizon). Before the advent of AWACS aircraft, this was the only way. This technique was used even by the British at the Falklands (poor Sheffield during the attack was just a RLD ship).
    If USN needed a suicide ship, they had a bunch of cheap 25-27 nodal escort EVs to do it.
    Seven heavy aircraft carriers would be hard to fill in the entire history of the Japanese navy. And at the same time, the Japanese had a maximum of four such ships in combat.

    And how many aircraft carriers did the Japanese have when they hit Pearl Harbor? wink
    Throughout the war, the Kriegsmarine sailors were forced to fight off aircraft from the semi-automatic anti-aircraft guns 3.7 cm SK C / 30.

    Since 1944, the fleet received 37-mm M42 and M43 assault rifles.
    1. Santa Fe
      8 February 2021 19: 01
      0
      And how many aircraft carriers did the Japanese have when they hit Pearl Harbor?

      Heavy 4 pieces
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 8 February 2021 19: 14
        +1
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Heavy 4 pieces

        And by what parameters do you divide aircraft carriers?
        1. Santa Fe
          8 February 2021 19: 16
          0
          Displacement, dimensions, air group
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 8 February 2021 14: 34
    +1
    It was wrong to throw several surface ships against 11 aircraft carriers during the day and in good weather.
    Correctly beat to wait until the weather was bad for carrier-based aircraft - night or wind or fog, or 5 or more points of excitement and then throw surface ships into the attack.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 8 February 2021 21: 20
    +2
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Yes, that's my conclusion

    The diameter of the halo should not exceed the diameter of the head.
  • certero
    certero 15 February 2021 11: 47
    0
    Quote: cat Rusich
    Japanese samurai started the war

    After that, the defeat was natural. The Japanese, in their own opinion, had the only chance that the Americans would go nuts and not take out the losses. In other words, they had no chance at all.
  • Private SA
    Private SA April 20 2021 05: 15
    0
    Quote: cat Rusich
    Yamato "and" Musashi "had to be sent into battle at Pearl Harbor on November 7, 1941 - to finish off the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet located in Pearl Harbor.

    "Yamato went to sea on December 7, 1941 for sea trials."