Military Review

Energy 2.0 and "Hydrogen Valley" of Russia

113

My previous article the use of hydrogen as the fuel of the future was written two years ago. Many in the comments then were skeptical about my predictions. Some joked, they say, all this is science fiction, unrealizable "beautiful far away." Others feared the disaster of the American airship Hindenburg in May 1937.


But more than 80 years have passed since the tragedy at Lakehurst Air Base. Technologies and materials have changed, the level of safety of hydrogen use has increased by an order of magnitude. Each of us has at least once rode a gas-powered shuttle bus. Some have converted their cars with gas cylinders. And everyone is alive.

Indeed, in some ways, the skeptics were right, since the existing monopoly of hydrocarbon fuels, apparently, until recently, blocked all hydrogen projects. But the world does not stand still. And my forecasts for hydrogen energy began to come true, taking on real shape. And the conflict of interests of the hydrocarbon monopoly with hydrogen fuel has now been exhausted.

Over the past 15–20 years, the global hydrogen market has grown from USD 40 million to USD 12 billion. Bank of America predicts the hydrogen fuel industry will soon enter the $ 11 trillion market. Key player countries in this market: Canada, USA, China, EU, Japan, Korea.

In 2020, despite the coronavirus pandemic, a number of countries announced their plans to decarbonize, or "zero emissions" of carbon dioxide, by 2050. Their plans are to eliminate the use of coal, oil and gas, while hydrogen is a real alternative fuel for achieving 100% zero carbon.

It turned out that reducing emissions by 80% is difficult, but possible. But the significant high cost of eliminating the remaining 20% ​​became the "stumbling block" of all decarbonization programs.

Wood Mackenzie, an international energy research consultancy, has declared the 2020s "hydrogen decade." And Europe last July adopted the "EU Hydrogen Strategy". The so-called "2x40 GW Initiative" from the "Hydrogen Europe" association. By 2030, they plan to deploy 40-gigawatt electrolyzers producing green hydrogen, and they want to export the same amount of hydrogen from neighboring countries. Australia, Japan, China, Canada and several US states have also announced strategies to use hydrogen as a zero-emission fuel.

The leading countries in the production of hydrogen promise to increase its production 50 times within six years.

The newly formed international consortium of energy giants, Green Hydrogen Catapult, also plans to create a 2026-gigawatt production of green hydrogen by 25, while reducing its cost to $ 2 per kilogram. The consortium members are IPP ACWA Power from Saudi Arabia, offshore wind turbine developer Orsted, Chinese wind turbine manufacturer Envision and Italian gas company Snam.

From Bloomberg's Hydrogen Economy Outlook:

"In 2050, 24% of the world's energy needs will be covered by hydrogen, and its price will drop to the level of today's gas prices."

In other words, the consumption of hydrogen will grow in proportion to the decrease in the cost of its production.

"Hydrogen Valley"


Our country also did not stay away from global trends.

In 2015, Russia “entered the game” by signing the UN framework convention, which implies a multiple reduction in carbon emissions from electricity generation for the next decade. Last summer, Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin approved "Energy Strategy of the Russian Federation until 2035", in which Hydrogen Energy is spelled out as a separate item.

Strategy objectives -

"Development of production and consumption of hydrogen,

the entry of the Russian Federation into the ranks of the world leaders in its production and export ”.

It is planned that Russia in 2024 will export about 200 thousand tons of hydrogen, and by 2035, 10 times more - about 2 million tons.
This is how, no less, but the integrated development of hydrogen energy and the country's entry into the number of world leaders in its production and export, which in a ten-year horizon can be 10-15% of the global hydrogen market.

And here is the roadmap for the hydrogen energy development plan in Russia:

- At the end of 2020, a concept for the development of hydrogen energy was developed, as well as support measures for pilot projects for the production of hydrogen.

- At the beginning of 2021, incentives should appear for exporters and buyers of hydrogen in the domestic market.

- The first hydrogen producers will be "Gazprom" и Rosatom... The companies will launch pilot hydrogen plants in 2024 - at nuclear power plants, gas production facilities and raw material processing plants.

- In 2021, Gazprom is to develop and test a gas turbine using methane-hydrogen fuel.

- Until 2024, Gazprom will study the use of hydrogen and methane-hydrogen fuel in gas installations (gas turbine engines, gas boilers, etc.) and as a motor fuel in various types of transport.

- In 2024, Rosatom will build a test site for railway transport using hydrogen. We are talking about the transfer of trains to hydrogen fuel cells on Sakhalin, which was announced in 2019 by Russian Railways, Rosatom and Transmashholding.


In November 2020, the Russian consortium “Technological hydrogen valley", Which will conduct research and develop hydrogen technologies. The created consortium included: Tomsk Polytechnic University, Institute of Catalysis SB RAS, Institute of Problems of Chemical Physics RAS, Institute of Petrochemical Synthesis RAS, Samara State Technical University and Sakhalin State University. But later other universities and academic institutions will be able to join them.

And here are the customers - Russian companies relying on hydrogen energy: Gazprom, Gapromneft, SIBUR, Russian Railways, Severstal, Rosatom, NOVATEK. Let's face it, our country has a good head start in the form of its own developments and hydrogen generation at nuclear power plants, which allows us to increase hydrogen production almost immediately.

But, as they say, there are some nuances ...

Hydrogen production


According to the method of production, it is customary to separate hydrogen by color:

"Green" hydrogen (carbon-free) - electrolysis using renewable energy sources (RES);

"Yellow" hydrogen (carbon-free) - electrolysis using nuclear power plants (NPP);

"Turquoise" hydrogen (low carbon) - pyrolysis of natural gas (methane);

"Blue" hydrogen (medium-carbon) - steam reforming of methane (PCM) or coal with CO2 utilization (CCS -and technology of carbon capture and storage);

"Gray" hydrogen (high carbon) - steam reforming of methane with CO2 emissions;

"Brown" hydrogen (high carbon) - gasification or steam reforming of coal.

The main methods for producing hydrogen and energy consumption for its production are shown in this figure.

Energy 2.0 and "Hydrogen Valley" of Russia

Note the catalytic decomposition of methane in the presence of a catalyst (bottom line). The advantage of this method is in the absence of CO2 and CO in the reaction products, as well as in the formation of a valuable product - nanofibrous carbon (NFC), which is used today in many industries. Now our scientists are working to improve the characteristics of materials used in catalytic membrane reactors (CMR), which separate hydrogen from gaseous media.

I even came across an exotic way of producing "green" hydrogen (in KMR) from hydrogen sulfide at the bottom of the Black Sea, where its potential reserves can reach 3 billion tons.

There is also a technology of two-stage production of "brown" hydrogen.

Stage I - production of synthesis gas from oil waste, liquid combustible waste, solid municipal waste, biomass, low-grade and high-ash coals, peat, shale and other fossil fuels.

Stage II - the use of synthesis gas to generate heat, electricity, hydrogen evolution (in the CMR).

In our country, structured catalysts, models of reformers and fuel processors have been developed to produce hydrogen and hydrogen-containing mixtures from various liquid (diesel, biodiesel, gasoline, methanol, ethanol, etc.) and gaseous (methane, propane-butane, dimethyl ether) fuels ...

For example, in China, "brown" hydrogen is produced on an industrial scale from low-grade coal and oil shale. But because of this, the ecology suffers greatly and the atmosphere is polluted.


Electrolysis method


Water electrolysis is the most environmentally friendly method of producing "green" hydrogen, but so far the most expensive in the world. The cost of producing hydrogen by PEM electrolysis for Europe is estimated at 3,93 euros per kg.

In Russia, the capacities of underloaded hydroelectric power plants, wind power plants or nuclear power plants are ideally suited for hydrogen electrolysis. The presence of such an attached load as electrolysis hydrogen production is very beneficial for nuclear power plants, as it ensures the operation of the plant at a constant power level, smoothing the load "sinusoid" during periods of low load.

The plans for the development strategy of our nuclear energy until 2050 include the production of 50 million tons of hydrogen per year, which is 10% of its world consumption.

The ideal option for the pilot project of the State Corporation Rosatom is the Kola NPP.


Energy consumption for the production of "yellow" hydrogen by electrolysis at nuclear power plants is 6 kW * h per 1 cubic meter. m of hydrogen. Productivity up to 83000 cubic meters m / h of hydrogen. The cost of the hydrogen produced is $ 3 per kg. However, the transportation of hydrogen to Europe is still in question, and the "yellow" hydrogen generated in this way may not be certified as "renewable", which is so important for the EU market.

Also, Rosatom is organizing "western" and "eastern" hydrogen clusters to provide hydrogen to the domestic and export markets of Europe and Asia. Rosatom is currently working on a feasibility study for two promising projects. These are the launch of hydrogen trains on Sakhalin and the export of Russian hydrogen to Japan.

It must be admitted that electrolysis is not yet capable of providing an economically viable production of hydrogen in the required volumes. Now all over the world, large-scale production of hydrogen is carried out from natural gas using the technology of steam reforming of methane (PCM). True, in this case almost half of the initial gas is burned, and combustion products are released into the environment. On the other hand, gas workers are happy, their product is in demand, it is possible to obtain inexpensive "gray" hydrogen from it and sell it profitably in large volumes.

But if heat from a high-temperature gas-cooled reactor (HTGR) or a high-temperature gas-cooled thorium reactor (HGTRU) is used in the technology of steam reforming of methane (PCM), then we get an excellent tandem for the production of electricity and "blue" hydrogen. This saves natural gas, electricity, and no harmful emissions into the environment.

According to this scheme, a promising nuclear power plant (AETS) can be developed, which will ensure large-scale production of environmentally friendly "yellow" and cheap "blue" hydrogen, which is close in price to the cost of natural gas. Thus, only one HTGR module with a thermal capacity of 200 MW can provide for the production of about 100 thousand tons of hydrogen per year.


Storage and transportation of hydrogen


Due to the high "fluidity" of hydrogen, it is very difficult to transport it over long distances, such as, for example, liquefied natural gas (LNG).

The problem with transporting liquid hydrogen is that the molecules of the substance are so small that they can seep through the atomic structure of a metal container at temperatures above -253 ° C. Maintaining such a temperature in a large volume for a long time is very energy-intensive. But there is one more problem - hydrogen embrittlement and destruction of metals under the influence of atomic hydrogen. Even high-strength steels, as well as titanium and nickel alloys, are subject to it.

It is not economically viable to store hydrogen in large volumes today. Scientists are still developing effective and safe storage methods. Therefore, it is more reasonable to produce hydrogen directly on site, and store only 10% of the consumed volume, which means a continuous cycle of its production and consumption.


Do not forget that even in small proportions, an explosive “explosive gas” is formed with oxygen. But this effect can also be stopped in a methane-hydrogen mixture (MHM), which remains safe even with a 30% hydrogen concentration in it.

Hydrogen will be produced from methane (or MBC) using the adiabatic methane conversion technology (ACM) patented by Gazprom. It can be assumed that the delivery of hydrogen to Europe is planned to be carried out in this way and for this purpose the construction of the Nord Stream-2 pipeline is urgently completed. Germany is more interested in this than all European countries, as it presented its hydrogen doctrine, which obliges the country to completely switch to hydrogen by 2050. The media write that Gazprom even offered the host party to build a large hydrogen production plant in the vicinity of the landfall of the gas pipeline under construction, and even reverse CO2 reverse from Germany.

In the future, liquid reversibly hydrogenated organic compounds (LOHC), methanol, ammonia can be used to transport hydrogen. But about this there are such problems as the toxicity of "fragrances" and very harsh conditions for the reverse reaction.

Our scientists have also developed even more efficient ways to store hydrogen. It is based on the unique ability of solid reversibly hydrogenated metals and alloys based on LaNi5 to retain hydrogen in their structure, and the packing density of its atoms is higher than the density of atoms in liquid hydrogen.

This method is called "intermetallic" hydrogen storage. Intermetallic storage devices (IMN) have already been manufactured and tested, which have proven their efficiency and reliability. To extract hydrogen from such a compact storage, the consumer will simply have to heat it up.

In conclusion, I would like to present to you another unique technology of nanocapillary storage and transportation of hydrogen (CNT), which is based on the principle of dividing the storage structure into millions of independent capillaries - microvolumes, or the so-called polycapillary matrix. Such hydrogen accumulators will have a number of advantages: light weight, compactness and explosion safety.

Nanocapillary structure for storing hydrogen under a microscope

Fuel cell and hydrogen engine


Solid oxide fuel cell (SSF) remains the main converter of hydrogen into electrical energy. This device converts the chemical energy of the fuel (hydrogen) directly into electrical energy by oxidizing oxygen without burning it.

Inside the TFC, hydrogen molecules enter into a chemical reaction with oxygen ions, and the output is electricity, heat and water vapor. Fuel cells can operate with various hydrocarbon fuels: hydrogen, as well as methane, butane or synthesis gas. Their electrical efficiency reaches 60%, and in the future 80%, while thermal, gas turbine or nuclear power plants have an efficiency of about 40%.


BTE-84 is created on the basis of solid polymer fuel cells, operates on synthesis gas (hydrogen) and air with a minimum overpressure of 0,004 kg / sq. cm, rated power 6,5 kW, voltage range 40–80 V, load current 0–160A, operating temperature +60 ºC, number of TE - 84, weight - 72 kg.

In terms of energy efficiency, hydrogen is 3-4 times higher than traditional fuel and was first used as a fuel for internal combustion engines in 1806. In the USSR, during the war in besieged Leningrad, hydrogen was also used in transport due to a shortage of gasoline.

The developed modern hydrogen rotary piston engine (RPE), as such, is planned to be installed on electric vehicles mainly to increase their mileage. And in gas turbine engines for various types of transport, the use of hydrogen and methane-hydrogen fuel until 2024 should be tested by Gazprom.

Hydrogen boom


And for dessert, I present a short selection of world News on hydrogen topics.

Canada, producing approximately 3 million tons of hydrogen per year, is already one of the ten largest hydrogen producers, providing growing market demand.

USA are developing the world's largest hydrogen-electric mining dump truck, UFCEV class.


Automotive concern General Motors has announced that it is going to be carbon neutral by 2035. And this means not only the rejection of cars with internal combustion engines, but also that all factories of the auto giant will use only renewable sources of "green" energy.

Japan back in 2019, it signed an agreement on the import of hydrogen from Russia, as well as with Russian Railways, Transmashholding and regional authorities on the launch of railway transport on Sakhalin using hydrogen fuel cell trains. Japan is going to ban the sale of cars with internal combustion engines by 2035. Fukushima opened the world's largest solar-powered hydrogen plant in 2020, capable of fueling up to 560 fuel cell vehicles per day.

Already today, there are 100 hydrogen filling stations in the country, and 2030 more are planned to be built by 900. Kawasaki has launched the world's first ship to transport liquid hydrogen. In September 2020, Japanese consortium NYK Line announced plans to develop a 100-passenger fuel cell touring boat.

Korea. Hyundai Motor intends to supply hydrogen electric vehicles to the Russian market and is in talks with Rosatom to create the corresponding infrastructure.


Shipbuilding company Samsung Heavy Industries and Bloom Energy have announced the development of ships based on scalable solid oxide fuel cells (SOFC).

China launched its first hydrogen car, the Grove Obsidian, with a 1 km range. At the end of 000, there were about 2020 FCEVs in China. The plans are to increase the number of such cars to 6 by 165, and to 2025 million by 50. The plans are to build 000 hydrogen filling stations by 2030 and 1 gas stations by 350.


Australia plans to produce ammonia (hydrogen transport) powered by solar and wind energy with a capacity of 1,5 GW.

Saudi Arabia. ACWA Power is working with US Air Products to build a 4 GW green hydrogen and ammonia plant.

Britain will ban cars with internal combustion engines in 2030, and by 2050 plans to switch to a completely "carbon-free" energy industry. Shearwater Energy is working on a hybrid power plant in North Wales that will combine a wind turbine, US NuScale modular nuclear reactor and hydrogen production.

Norway plans to build a hydrogen production plant in Geirangerfjord to fuel ferries and cruise ships. They plan to start using the first hydrogen steam in 2021.

Holland. The gas network operator Gasunie and the port of Groningen have formed the NortH2 consortium. The plans are to create a "European Hydrogen Valley" with allocated power capacity from offshore wind farms up to 10 GW by 2040.

Germany presented a hydrogen doctrine to convert all spheres of the economy to hydrogen by 2050, including heavy industry and petrochemical production. At the same time, their hydrogen strategy is actually aimed at Russia as a "neighboring state" capable of solving Germany's hydrogen problem.

France. The largest nuclear power plant operator, EDF, announced the creation of a subsidiary company, Hynamics, to develop hydrogen energy.


Airbus has unveiled three hydrogen aircraft concepts: a "classic" turbojet, a turboprop, and an integrated fuselage (flying wing) aircraft.

Italy. The shipbuilding company Fincantieri SpA has turned to PowerCell for the decarbonization of ships, which will test its MS-30 fuel cells for power generation on the company's ships and yachts.

Ukraine looking for the possibility of building a hydrogen production plant in the country,

"In the conditions of a surplus of nuclear generation",

to export it to the EU.

Russia somehow casually and without fuss presented its own developments of hydrogen transport, including cars, buses, KamAZ trucks, trams, airplanes and trains. As well as many unique developments and technologies for the production and storage of hydrogen, indicating the strategically correct development of the country in the chosen direction.


Overview of developments in the field of hydrogen technologies by the NTI IPCP RAS Center
https://youtu.be/jWCmG2wZles
Author:
Photos used:
atomic-energy.ru, dailytechinfo.org, electrotrans.spb.ru, kommersant.ru, hansanglab.com
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  1. 7,62x54
    7,62x54 4 February 2021 15: 15
    +14
    What hydrogen. And we again have a full septic tank, we need to call a sewer. Technologies of the 21st century. We live in a city with a million inhabitants, and the entire private sector is in cesspools.
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 4 February 2021 15: 17
      +10
      Look how cool. 700 Atmo under the booty !!! It's cooler than a land mine! Will blow it to the trash. A very deterrent. And half a ton of lithium in the back under the floor, which burns like a thermite checker, but only blazes brighter from the water.
      1. Brturin
        Brturin 4 February 2021 15: 58
        +1
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        It's cooler than a land mine!

        So, in addition to hydrogen, they also offer "green ammonia", this one may not explode, but ... ammonia, of course ... that hydrogen, that ammonia ... will most likely switch to electric ... these will be left for "professional" transport
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 4 February 2021 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        700 Atmo under the booty !!! It's cooler than a land mine!

        Yeah, but in the light of the author's faith in:
        Some have converted their cars with gas cylinders. And everyone is alive.
        and generally scary.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. mister-red
      mister-red 7 February 2021 14: 25
      +1
      Quote: 7,62x54
      What hydrogen. And we again have a full septic tank, we need to call a sewer. Technologies of the 21st century. We live in a city with a million inhabitants, and the entire private sector is in cesspools.

      In fact, a septic tank is a water filtration device with a half-seated outlet of water into the ground. If yours is overcrowded, then it is poorly designed. And faster all you have is an ordinary cesspool. And yes, the last century. And septic tanks are very technologically advanced and modern, there are pumps, automation, etc. They were greedy, however, and the government is to blame for you.

      And ask what kind of canalization is in American homes. There is no smell of central sewers, this is the standard view of what they have under the green lawn. This is the septic tank filtration field. And somewhere the septik tank itself is buried
  2. Galleon
    Galleon 4 February 2021 15: 27
    +14
    Rosatom "in 2024 will build a test site for railway transport on hydrogen. We are talking about the transfer of trains to hydrogen fuel cells on Sakhalin, which was announced in 2019 by Russian Railways, Rosatom and Transmashholding.

    It's cool, of course. I will not tell you about the whole of Sakhalin, but in the Khabarovsk Territory, almost all stokers are on Sakhalin coal. And on Sakhalin, do you think they are on hydrogen? And what about this area of ​​the fight for clean air?
    The length of Sakhalin railways is 805 km. It is hoped that in this small section, locomotives will indeed be able to convert to a modern form of energy. And then, perhaps, they will get to the stokers.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 4 February 2021 16: 42
      +1
      Quote: Galleon
      It's cool, of course.

      Especially if you know the cost of hydrogen.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 4 February 2021 19: 24
        +4
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Especially if you know the cost of hydrogen.
        Not as expensive as it seems: up to $ 5 per kg on average. Storage problem. The author promises 8 times tighter packaging at atmospheric pressure than the traditional storage method (simple compression) at 350 atm.
        But judging by the fact, he believes that many have converted their cars to hydrogen ... I don't believe it!
        I will assume that no one has purely hydrogen cars on the site, methane - units. But propane-butane is not uncommon ...
        1. Brturin
          Brturin 4 February 2021 20: 49
          +1
          Quote: Simargl
          Not as expensive as it seems: up to $ 5 per kg on average.

          "not expensive" is production, only delivery ... especially if there are large volumes - to drive the mixture through the gas pipelines and then separate it (if the gas pipeline is new, then, in my opinion, up to 70% of water can be %, brought this mixture to the power plant, separated the hydrogen, gas where - to build reverse back to the distribution point ...), build separate pipelines .. transport by tanks (and if there is an accident) ... everyone is discussing production ... delivery as- then ...
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 4 February 2021 21: 17
            +2
            Quote: BrTurin
            build separate pipelines .. transport in tanks (and if there is an accident) ... everyone is discussing production ... delivery somehow ...
            There is such a catch ... the gas will also have to be left "there": it also burns.
            The second joke is that if hydrogen energy is fired (instead of kerosene), then in the end hydrogen will be obtained by electrolysis, not conversion, because while, of course, electrolysis is more expensive, but there is always water and electricity.
            And if electrolysis - local production.
            1. Brturin
              Brturin 4 February 2021 21: 41
              +2
              Quote: Simargl
              And if electrolysis - local production.

              So e / e, where to get it ... if you take Germany and those who consider nuclear power plants evil with it - yellow hydrogen will not work here, green remains - will there be enough power for all solar, wind, tidal, maybe geothermal (if they get to Eifel) for electrolysis necessary for energy, transport and elsewhere ... And if not, then hydrogen from the side and again how to transport it ... the gas was pumped into the storage and you can supply it to chemists, power engineers, and ordinary consumers and all this is worked out, since consumption is not constant (day-night, summer-winter), but with hydrogen ..
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 4 February 2021 21: 43
                +1
                Quote: BrTurin
                will there be enough power for all solar, wind, tidal, maybe geothermal (if they get to the Eifel) for electrolysis
                In parallel with SP-1-2, there will be SP-3-4-5, but aluminum.
                1. Brturin
                  Brturin 4 February 2021 21: 59
                  +1
                  Two of them will be enough, the main thing is that there are as few transients as possible ...
              2. UserGun
                UserGun 4 February 2021 22: 11
                +1
                "Evil tongues" are spoken and naturally not in the Russian Federation that:

                Quote: UserGun
                "Recently, solar and wind power plants have surpassed the most energy efficient coal plants in terms of efficiency: more than half of the capacities launched last year on the basis of solar and wind energy provided electricity costs lower than those of coal counterparts." https://www.finam.ru/analysis/newsitem/investicii-v-zelenuyu-energetiku-stanovyatsya-vse-privlekatelnee-20200626-160318/
                1. Brturin
                  Brturin 4 February 2021 23: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: UserGun
                  and naturally not in the Russian Federation

                  is the same Germany capable of providing itself with electricity with such stations, if yes - great, if not, then how will the problem of transporting hydrogen (obtained from outside) to the consumer, its storage and distribution, taking into account the instability in consumption (day-night , winter-summer), whether such a system is able to cope with maxims of consumption (abnormal heat or frost is the closest example of Japan in these frosts).
                  1. UserGun
                    UserGun 4 February 2021 23: 46
                    0
                    Of course not. But there are many countries around, energy sources too))) Look at the map. It is only the Russian Federation that is fenced off from everyone, hoping for something, and the FIRST thing is going to extract hydrogen from fossil fuels, judging by the statements of gas mines))) Recently Finland (and this is the largest importer of electricity from the Russian Federation) was going to refuse imports. The earth is already burning under the feet of the "national" property, so you have to turn around)))
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 5 February 2021 18: 54
                      0
                      Quote: UserGun
                      and the FIRST thing is going from fossil fuel to produce hydrogen
                      And where are they wrong? The first step is to plant (or transplant?) To another "needle", and then change the source to an inexhaustible one.
                      1. UserGun
                        UserGun 6 February 2021 00: 19
                        0
                        What, what, sorry ?!
                      2. Simargl
                        Simargl 6 February 2021 04: 30
                        0
                        Quote: UserGun
                        What, what, sorry ?!
                        And if the mind turn on buy? What problem arises when changing the energy source for transportation (say, from gasoline to methane)?
      2. Nyrobsky
        Nyrobsky 5 February 2021 00: 31
        +4
        Quote: Simargl
        But judging by the fact, he believes that many have converted their cars to hydrogen ... I don’t believe! I will assume that no one has purely hydrogen cars on the site, methane - units. But propane-butane is not uncommon ...

        I don't think you will be surprised, but some 100 years ago there were not much more cars powered by an internal combustion engine, and the railways confidently trampled steam locomotives on coal and water without seeing an alternative in the form of diesel locomotives, and even more so electric. Judging by the growing demand for energy from renewable resources, environmental friendliness and a decrease in the cost of its production, the future will probably still be with green energy, and therefore it is not very far-sighted to rely only on oil and gas, and therefore it is necessary to harness the topic of finding alternative sources already now, so that tomorrow in a hurry not to catch up with the departing train.
        1. Ajevgenij
          Ajevgenij 7 February 2021 19: 43
          +2
          I think, yes.
          In general, the topic of green energy is close to me. I think it would be possible to advance much more in this direction, if there was a strong oil lobby and speculative financial economy.
  • V1er
    V1er 4 February 2021 15: 27
    +5
    After 10 years, banning cars with internal combustion engines is somehow too optimistic. And no one thought how expensive it is, how difficult and time consuming it is to rebuild their energy sector and abandon combustible fuel? Utopian plans. For some reason I am sure that in 2030 they will report, which, alas, did not work out, we will postpone it until 2100.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 4 February 2021 19: 28
      +4
      Quote: V1er
      And no one thought how expensive it is, how difficult and time consuming it is to rebuild their energy sector and abandon combustible fuel?
      Hydrogen is a combustible fuel. Moreover, even a traditional internal combustion engine can be configured for a gasoline-hydrogen mixture.

      Quote: V1er
      For some reason I am sure that in 2030 they will report, which, alas, did not work out, we will postpone it until 2100.
      Not at all! Hydrogen is not free. It must be produced, which means there is a place for earnings. Oil tycoons will simply pump the loot into the desired sector and will use hydrogen (more precisely, with energy, as always). Business then.
      1. V1er
        V1er 4 February 2021 19: 29
        0
        Thanks for the clarifications.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 4 February 2021 15: 35
    +15
    Literally the eyes are on the forehead. Fiction. How crazy was it to get busy with this hat ?! When the USSR was in the world, this wild scam would never have occurred to anyone! But then it began ...
    First, we take and spend, for example, methane, up to half the volume. Then, we get hydrogen, which cannot even be transported anywhere economically, and we cannot store it on site for any length of time - it flows out of the cylinders, and besides, they spoil them, of course. Chumaaaa ...
    Actually, if we just burned all the methane that this fraud got off, we would get significantly more electricity. But then a lot of "respected" people would not profit from the scam! All other methods of producing hydrogen suffer the same - in the end, all of them are several times less efficient than the simple use of resources that went into conversion into hydrogen as a fuel for generating electricity.
    All this movement is simply a criminal scam to siphon funds from budgets. To insert one more link into the chain of converting initial fuels into electricity means simply increasing losses. And that's all. All as one participants in these schemes are criminals. This would never have happened in a world where there was global competition. But now what to be ashamed of?
    And now all this hydrogen sharaga is insolently robbing budgets, taking advantage of the general illiteracy and degradation of governing structures ... Our civilization has simply entered a period of decay, guys ...
    1. dauria
      dauria 4 February 2021 20: 06
      +3
      To insert one more link into the chain of converting initial fuels into electricity means simply increasing losses.


      You are right from the point of view of the entire planet. But here's another moment - they make a clean office, behind the wall of which there is noise and dirt. A workshop where clean electricity and clean hot water and warm batteries are produced. For the office.
      If the workshop is subordinate to the office, this will work. If it is fair trade, then the question will arise: "Gentlemen, office workers, what are you willing to sell to us, besides the services of your secretary?"
      In short, Russia needs to develop nuclear energy. And missiles with nuclear weapons. In any case, everyone needs energy. We'll throw wires in there - and if they can pay, let them indulge in hydrogen, heat their apartments with banknotes.
      1. Dkuznecov
        Dkuznecov 5 February 2021 22: 16
        0
        Quote: dauria
        And missiles with nuclear weapons

        Lord, where are you going to attach rockets?
        1. dauria
          dauria 5 February 2021 22: 27
          +1
          Lord, where are you going to attach rockets?

          At the door between the workshop and the office .... So that the bosses from the other side do not have a desire to set their own prices for our hot batteries and the services of "theirs" secretaries.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 20: 58
      +1
      In the future, they will most likely create such a material for cylinders that can hold hydrogen molecules.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 5 February 2021 09: 01
        -2
        That's when they will create ... However, all the same, hydrogen fuel will be many times more expensive than any other, because its deposits are not found in nature. Fuel is what has stored solar energy without our participation. And our energy consumption for its extraction is much less than it is stored in it. All redistribution products are net losses from the bulk of the original fuel. School physics.
        The question is, this scam would not have worked before. Just how? You are sculpting a fraudulent, thieves' scheme based on "new technology". And you go with her to those who will give money. The following happens there - people who make decisions are divided into two types. Some are dynamic, creative, result-oriented fellows, that is, a stupid, uneducated, brainless mess, the basis of today's "corporate culture". These stumps with eyes are deceived by the hat you brought. And there are others who understand physics for the 8-9 grade. These have to be taken into account.
        So, before such a hydrogen fraud was absolutely impossible for the simplest reason - too many would have to be taken as a share. Almost all of them. It's not profitable. But now the authorities and leadership of many large campaigns are very similar to the author of the article - dexterous language and desert under the skull. Civilization control systems are dying ...
      2. Sergey M. Karasev
        Sergey M. Karasev 6 February 2021 07: 31
        +1
        In the future, a thermonuclear reactor will be created, an antimatter reactor, and methane will be mined on Jupiter with Saturn. The only question is when this future will come.
  • Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich
    Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich 4 February 2021 15: 46
    +14
    Others feared the disaster of the American Hindenburg airship in May 1937.

    Well, since when did the Hindenburg airship become American ??? The disaster really happened in the USA, but the airship is German !!!
    1. Katran
      5 February 2021 08: 21
      +3
      I apologize for the "mess" lol I typed the word in the wrong place, and then the editors made a gap ...
      Please read this:
      “Others were scared by the Hindenburg airship disaster in May 1937.
      But after the tragedy on American Lakehurst Air Force Base is over 80 years old. " good
    2. Dkuznecov
      Dkuznecov 5 February 2021 22: 18
      0
      You will laugh.
      By 37, the entire German economy was
      completely and completely American.
      It is enough to read the "Black Obelisk" by Remarque,
      a house in Germany cost 2 (two) US dollars.
      All of Germany was bought up by comrades from overseas.
  • datura23
    datura23 4 February 2021 15: 50
    +9
    3 problems of hydrogen cannot be solved in principle
    1 molecule size - comes from any containers
    2 extreme reactivity - it is both an oxidizing agent and a reducing agent
    3 extremely explosive when mixed with air
    Conclusion - any dreams about clean hydrogen energy are water for the mill of scammers from science in conjunction with the authorities and there is nothing to argue about.
    1. Brturin
      Brturin 4 February 2021 16: 14
      +3
      Quote: datura23
      dreams of clean hydrogen energy

      Hydrogen has been used for a long time (the same problem of explosion hazard, gas analyzers are placed under the ceiling ...), the question is that all these issues can be solved in "industrial" installations, but in "domestic" use somehow not very ...
  • UserGun
    UserGun 4 February 2021 15: 50
    +2
    As I recall, quite recently, about 40 years ago, trial attempts to operate an internal combustion engine on hydrogen led to unexpected effects. ICE stupidly rusted)))
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 4 February 2021 19: 30
      +1
      Quote: UserGun
      ICE stupidly rusted
      They will not be with modern coatings.
      Of course, an example is not from an internal combustion engine ... but in modern times, turbine generators are cooled with hydrogen (as a coolant).
      1. UserGun
        UserGun 4 February 2021 20: 33
        -1
        )))

        With modern coatings ?! Well, well))) Read on the network the "enthusiastic" responses of car owners whose engines used modern coatings in the cylinders and assemblies. 100-150 thousand km. and the engine is sent to a landfill even without hydrogen))) Cooling is not at all burning it in the combustion chamber)))
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 4 February 2021 20: 46
          +2
          Quote: UserGun
          Read on the Internet the "enthusiastic" responses of car owners whose engines used modern coatings in the cylinders and assemblies. 100-150 thousand km. and the engine goes to landfill even without hydrogen
          Read about the technologies that led to this: modern engines are designed to last 150 km. Then to the disposal. And technology allows for programming wear. Now the engines are on the verge of a foul. This is capitalism.
          1. UserGun
            UserGun 4 February 2021 21: 05
            -2
            By the way, they stopped making such engines))) After the epic fail))) Capitalism, figle)))
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 5 February 2021 18: 56
              +1
              Quote: UserGun
              By the way, they stopped making such engines
              What kind? Which car, apart from mainline tractors, has an engine resource of more than 150 km guaranteed?
              1. UserGun
                UserGun 6 February 2021 00: 23
                +1
                You don't write such nonsense anymore. And do not confuse warm with soft, guaranteed mileage with mileage before overhaul. Honestly, it's funny to listen to such pearls)))
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 6 February 2021 04: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: UserGun
                  You don't write such nonsense anymore.
                  What kind? Unit warranty 100 or 000 years. I wrote about 5. Most of the cars that rolled 150-000 pumpkins require a very significant investment. Or are you in another universe?
                  1. UserGun
                    UserGun 6 February 2021 11: 59
                    0
                    Sorry, but I don’t have the habit of talking to fools. Goodbye.
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 4 February 2021 21: 02
          +1
          For hydrogen engines, new blocks will have to be made with special piston valve sleeves and plasma or laser ignition.
          1. UserGun
            UserGun 4 February 2021 21: 17
            0
            Let them do it, I'm all for it! Only now they will not do it in a hydrogen column))) Personally, it’s funny for me to see how quickly gas meats change their shoes on the fly))) That's where the circus is.
  • Serpet
    Serpet 4 February 2021 15: 50
    +21
    there is one more problem - hydrogen embrittlement and destruction of metals under the influence of atomic hydrogen. Even high-strength steels and titanium and nickel alloys are susceptible to it.

    And recently it was said that one line of SP-2 could be used to pump hydrogen to Europe. It turns out that not everything is so simple.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 21: 04
      +2
      Well, not directly hydrogen will be supplied through it - hydrogen will be mixed into the gas and this mixture of natural gas and hydrogen will be supplied through joint venture 2 and other gas pipelines.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 4 February 2021 15: 59
    +2
    In other words, the consumption of hydrogen will grow in proportion to the decrease in the cost of its production.

    as always, the key is the price ... followed by the PROBLEM of utilization A LOT of things that would burn clean fuel in the engines of green-eyed Geyropeans, after which there will be such an amount of "dirt" that you don't know where you have to put it.
    In general, as before, clean / dirty goes side by side, don't get what else !!!
    when not later ... if there is nothing better, cleaner.
  • Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich
    Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich 4 February 2021 16: 13
    +5
    And here's an interesting thought: we defeated all the difficulties and created cars that run on hydrogen. many such cars. So many that they have supplanted all classic-powered cars. Wonderful! And what will these cars have as an exhaust? Is it really water? Well, where will such an amount of water vapor go in our cities in winter? A real Russian winter? In Siberia?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 21: 07
      +2
      It will condense and turn into ice crystals in winter and evaporate in summer, but at the same time the roads will be moistened, which in turn will lead to less dustiness.
    2. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 5 February 2021 06: 18
      +2
      Quote: Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich
      A real Russian winter? In Siberia?

      They just won't start - the water in the exhaust will freeze!
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 5 February 2021 19: 57
        +2
        The outlet is the exhaust pipes of a larger diameter.
  • bar
    bar 4 February 2021 16: 15
    +4
    Our country also did not stay away from global trends.

    There were times when our country set these global trends.




    And all this was only 20 years ago sad
    1. bar
      bar 4 February 2021 16: 38
      +8
      By the way, ANTEL-1 was equipped with a fuel battery from the late Buran. She ate pure hydrogen and oxygen from cylinders. ANTEL-2 already had an original battery, twice as powerful. It was powered by hydrogen from cylinders and atmospheric air through a compressor and a carbon dioxide purification system.
      Has personally contributed to this hopeless cause smile
    2. Dkuznecov
      Dkuznecov 5 February 2021 22: 21
      -1
      Yes, stop flirting. There are many young people here
      they don't understand sarcasm.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 4 February 2021 16: 31
    +7
    In all formulas (except the last two), CO is released on a healthy scale. Where will the "green" energy gentlemen do with it? According to the last formula (catalytic decomposition of methane): well, now it is clear where the coal basins come from on Earth - these are the dinosaurs of the previous civilization who drove hydrogen fuel in immeasurable quantities :) In general, a strange excitement. I would still understand if they invented a portable installation for generating hydrogen from water, installed directly into the power unit of a vehicle. But dancing with tambourines around storage, transportation, distribution / refueling with hydrogen in industrial volumes is very reminiscent of a planetary scale scam.
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 4 February 2021 17: 08
      +2
      Quote: andrew42
      dancing with tambourines around storage, transportation, distribution / refueling of hydrogen in industrial volumes - this is very reminiscent of a planetary scale scam.


      It's just that the West is serious about global warming. And green energy, with its uneven production, needs energy storage means. Hydrogen is one of the candidates.
      1. Motorist
        Motorist 4 February 2021 22: 49
        +2
        Quote: Eye of the Crying
        It's just that the West is serious about global warming.

        No, in the West they profit from this hysteria. More "green" capitalists have less of them, and in the end the end consumer suffers. Hello! hi
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 00: 15
          +1
          Quote: Motorist
          Greener capitalists have fewer


          I agree.
          1. Motorist
            Motorist 5 February 2021 00: 20
            +1
            Green enclosed in quotes. I can give you the last "green" example from my industry, but you already understand everything. drinks
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 00: 22
              -2
              Quote: Motorist
              You already understand everything.


              Sure. But I am quoting only what I agree with.
              1. Motorist
                Motorist 5 February 2021 00: 48
                +1
                Quote: Eye of the Crying
                I quote only what I agree with

                Then - for the end user.

                You may be aware of the latest MARPOL Annex VI CO2 emission requirements for maritime transport (30% reduction, EMNIP). Applicable to all ships, but for now I'll tell you about steamers with 2-stroke main engines with direct transmission to fixed pitch propellers (4-stroke engines with fixed pitch propellers are a completely different story, even more dramatic).

                So the easiest way to reduce emissions is to slow down. But nobody canceled freight rates and is not going to mine! Thus, the price of the transported cargo is growing (time!). That is, to acquire it, you need to work harder and produce CO2.

                These are still qualitative estimates, quantitative ones will be in a year after adoption.
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 01: 12
                  -1
                  And ... what are you doing this for?

                  Quote: Motorist
                  These are still high-quality estimates.


                  These are not estimates at all.
                  1. Motorist
                    Motorist 5 February 2021 01: 23
                    0
                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    And ... what are you doing this for?

                    Well, you agree [only] with what you quoted. So I wanted to tell you about the impact on the end consumer (for you and me, from not quoted).

                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    These are not estimates at all.

                    This is more than just an estimate - soon either the whole IMO system will fall apart, or sea transportation will grow in price terribly. This is not only my assessment.
                    1. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 01: 29
                      -2
                      Quote: Motorist
                      So I wanted to tell you about the impact on the end consumer


                      About my idea of ​​this blow.

                      Quote: Motorist
                      soon either the whole system IMO will fall down, or transportation by sea will grow terribly in price.


                      Wikipedia slanders that "MARPOL Annex VI came into force on 19 May 2005". How long to wait?
                      1. Motorist
                        Motorist 5 February 2021 01: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        About my idea of ​​this blow.

                        Well, yes ... I'm not UK or RD. smile

                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        came into force on 19 May 2005

                        The wiki only gives a general idea of ​​the subject. Dig deeper - amendments and resolutions. Carbon dioxide is the latest trend.
                      2. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 01: 58
                        -2
                        I dug - it generally talks about nitrogen oxides, not carbon. In short, while you are not convincing. Let's link to the amendment with carbon monoxide.
                      3. Motorist
                        Motorist 5 February 2021 20: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        it generally talks about nitrogen oxides

                        It looks like Wiki only knows about Rule 13.

                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        Let's link to the amendment with carbon monoxide.

                        It's always a pleasure to talk to a polite person!

                        Be healthy.
                      4. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 5 February 2021 20: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Motorist

                        It looks like Wiki only knows about Rule 13.


                        This is not a Wiki, but an EPA site.

                        Quote: Motorist
                        Be healthy.


                        Have a nice one you too.
                      5. Dkuznecov
                        Dkuznecov 5 February 2021 22: 25
                        0
                        This is not a website, and you are not a correspondent for funds
                        mass media (hopefully).
                        It's just a "smoking room", "sandbox".
                        Here I even have a cat, walking on the keyboard,
                        leaves some notes, and no one is offended.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 4 February 2021 19: 37
    +3
    Quote: andrew42
    I would still understand if they invented a portable installation for generating hydrogen from water, installed directly into the power unit of a vehicle.
    Then to burn, get energy and water?
    Perpetual motion drawings have not been accepted for a long time. Ecumenical conspiracy. Well, you understand wink
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 4 February 2021 17: 06
    +1
    The article is interesting, but these are the pearls:

    Over the past 15–20 years, the global hydrogen market has grown from $ 40 million to $ 12 billion. Bank of America predicts the hydrogen fuel industry will soon enter the $ 11 trillion market.


    undermine trust. Coming to the market 1000 times more soon? Seriously?
  • Hwostatij
    Hwostatij 4 February 2021 17: 37
    +3
    Give me metallic hydrogen under normal conditions! fellow
    1. datura23
      datura23 4 February 2021 20: 17
      -1
      organize mining on Jupiter!
  • dgonni
    dgonni 4 February 2021 19: 36
    0
    In general, in terms of Russia's prospects, everything is very sad.
    Previously, advanced technologies and developments were thrown into the scrap. And they cannot be restored without the infusion of Western technologies.
    And without this, everything written resembles a program visiting a fairy tale!
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 4 February 2021 21: 13
      +2
      Rosatom is already making its own equipment for the production and storage of hydrogen. And yes, Russia is the only country in the world that is actively developing nuclear energy and generation, which means that our hydrogen production will be more competitive than other manufacturers.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. UserGun
        UserGun 4 February 2021 21: 56
        -4
        You are late and operate on outdated data. Maybe they were even late forever, as with cybernetics.

        "Recently, solar and wind power plants in terms of efficiency began to surpass most energy efficient coal plants: more than half of the solar and wind power capacity launched last year contributed to the cost of electricity lower than coal analogues." https://www.finam.ru/analysis/newsitem/investicii-v-zelenuyu-energetiku-stanovyatsya-vse-privlekatelnee-20200626-160318/
        1. Hwostatij
          Hwostatij 5 February 2021 00: 59
          0
          most energy efficient coal plants

          Fact of the day)))
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 5 February 2021 20: 06
          +1
          Everyone is starting to abandon coal, a too dirty way of generating energy and generating heat - they are switching to LNG and pipe gas. So the development of hydrogen energy and the production of it is an alternative alternative to replacing coal production, which will decrease every year.
          1. UserGun
            UserGun 6 February 2021 00: 26
            -1
            Nevertheless, this is a fact. Investing in green energy is becoming more profitable than in traditional ones. At least in developed countries. Of course, this does not apply to developing countries, including the Russian Federation and completely backward ones))) Trading in minerals is certainly the highest chic, yes))) Don't mind! ))) I am personally interested in watching from the sidelines how some are harnessed here, to foam on their lips, for such chic))) Circus! )))
  • iouris
    iouris 4 February 2021 23: 24
    -1
    Clear. The "middle class" will be declassified. The car will become an unaffordable luxury. At best, sometimes "public" transport will be available, at worst - only "remote". This is what communism looks like.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 5 February 2021 22: 22
      +2
      At best, sometimes "public" transport will be available
      and what's wrong with that, in the Union they went to cities on trams and trolleybuses, every morning and evening and nothing fellow , with a penny cost of gasoline and oil, and on weekends already to the dacha and pick mushrooms in personal transport, and then with the whole family, and not now in the city it is difficult to put the car where it is necessary, parking is everywhere, but not enough for everyone, plus a garage and maintenance "personal carriage" and safety on the roads ..., and so went out and stomped to a stop, the fight against physical inactivity and cardio load is constant, fitness is not needed laughing
  • Keer
    Keer 5 February 2021 01: 37
    +2
    Good thing. Burn hydrocarbons at CHPPs, obtain hydrogen by electrolysis, and drive it for export. In terms of the overall energy efficiency, it is not very good, but in terms of the local financial efficiency, it’s even nothing. laughing
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 6 February 2021 15: 12
      0
      Burn carbon at a CHP
      it is possible and not from a thermal power plant, but it is possible to take from a hydroelectric power station / nuclear power plant, somehow there are many more ways, plus generally get it from oil and methane, there are many types of reactions for producing hydrogen with the technical purity of the gas environment!
  • kig
    kig 5 February 2021 02: 55
    0
    Hydrogen production requires energy - so where is the waste-free production? Electrolysis using renewable energy sources ... this very renewable energy is mainly located outside the state borders of the Russian Federation. No, it's not bad to dream ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 5 February 2021 20: 02
      +2
      In Russia, it will be with the use of nuclear power plants.
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 5 February 2021 22: 16
        0
        In Russia it will be using a nuclear power plant
        that's right, there are a lot of stations and there is enough power with a margin, the South Koreans and the Chinese are already testing thermonuclear ones with might and main, apparently they know where to drive the power ...
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 6 February 2021 14: 21
          +1
          Quote: Intruder
          South Koreans and Chinese are already experiencing thermonuclear
          Since the end of the 50s, the thermonuclear lovers' club could not but replenish. Moreover, the exhaust is a very, very tasty morsel. During this time alone, no country has built an apparatus even slightly resembling an industrial design.
          While ITER is being completed, the concept of the reactor will change completely (now spherical ones are gaining popularity, and ITER is a torus).
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 6 February 2021 15: 09
            0
            Last year, South Koreans: 100 million degrees, if I'm not mistaken - 5 microseconds, held (on 3dnews), there was a note about it!
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 6 February 2021 21: 31
              0
              Quote: Intruder
              if I'm not mistaken - 5 μs
              Something a little ... we have such a time on a device 70 cm in diameter (I can lie, but the order is about this) they keep.
      2. Katran
        6 February 2021 19: 32
        0
        Already now, the nuclear power plants generate hydrogen for "their own needs". If necessary, they can simply ramp up production for consumers.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 7 February 2021 05: 32
          +1
          Already now, the nuclear power plants generate hydrogen for "their own needs".
          and not only, for other technical processes, even in petroleum chemistry and in the production of food and fertilizers wink :
          Hydrogen is widely used in oil refining - with its help sulfur compounds are removed from various oil products. A large volume of this gas is used to obtain ammonia (necessary, for example, for the production of fertilizers). Also, the reaction of hydrogen with chlorine gives hydrogen chloride, the aqueous solution of which is known to us as hydrochloric acid. Hydrogen is also used to reduce metals from their oxides. This gas is an important component in the production of methyl alcohol.
          Hydrogen is also used in the food industry - for the production of margarine from vegetable oils
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 5 February 2021 10: 26
    +3
    People are working on the problem of storage and use in "household" devices, and it seems that even, if you believe the advertising, it is quite successful (for example, here is the new one https://naukatehnika.com/novoe-toplivo-na-vodorodnoj-osnove-s-vyisokoj-plotnostyu -energii.html)
    And so yes, if you calculate the efficiency of this entire hydrogen epic in total, then just burning coal / oil / gas will turn out to be more profitable.
    But the green ones are not campaigning for the total, they are for clean energy in a specific place in Europe / America.
    The burgher wants to breathe clean air.
    And what the conditional Asian / African will breathe, he worries much less.
    1. iouris
      iouris 5 February 2021 11: 27
      0
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      The burgher wants to breathe clean air.

      After the world socialist system was destroyed, no one asks the burgher. There is no point. He will breathe, but if he can earn. I think that no one needs eighty percent of the "burghers".
  • Intruder
    Intruder 5 February 2021 22: 12
    +1
    pilot hydrogen plants in 2024 - at nuclear power plants, gas production facilities and raw material processing plants.
    But this is correct, it is time to change the "gasoline" of the last century, the technologies for fuel cells in transport and not only will sooner catch up:
  • Intruder
    Intruder 5 February 2021 22: 30
    +2
    The problem with transporting liquid hydrogen is that the molecules of the substance are so small that they can seep through the atomic structure of a metal container at temperatures above -253 ° C. Maintaining such a temperature in a large volume for a long time is very energy-intensive. But there is one more problem - hydrogen embrittlement and destruction of metals under the influence of atomic hydrogen. Even high-strength steels, as well as titanium and nickel alloys, are subject to it.
    composite materials, they did not come up with it yesterday, I had one such cylinder for liquid nitrogen (back in 2017 I was having fun with nitrogen overlocking), and why should it be stored for a long time !? it is also spent on performing work in an internal combustion engine, or on electrochemical reactions in a fuel cell in order to obtain energy on demand ...
  • Sergey M. Karasev
    Sergey M. Karasev 6 February 2021 08: 01
    0

    Energy 2.0 and "Hydrogen Valley" of Russia

    I have doubts about the partial oxidation of methane
    1. Katran
      6 February 2021 20: 13
      0
      And what exactly is confusing? The AKM technology is patented by Gazprom. To use this method, foreigners will have to "add a little more" money for using a patent.
      Or are you worried about excess CO2? They plan to pump it into underground cavities, and they also write that it is useful for good plant growth. For example, in greenhouses, but there are no people there yet, of course.
      1. Sergey M. Karasev
        Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 07: 49
        +1
        Yesterday I wanted to write a more detailed comment, but VO glitched up and it turned out what it did and it was not even possible to delete it. Let me briefly say that, based on the values ​​of the electronegativity of carbon and hydrogen, this reaction should produce water and elemental carbon. This reaction is called "methane pyrolysis" and is used in practice. But I admit that with the participation of catalysts from fine platinum metals, it will go as indicated in the article. Good catalysts and not such miracles worked.
        1. Katran
          7 February 2021 11: 37
          0
          Here, I found a picture of methane conversion. The most promising is the second method, since only methane and water (water vapor) are involved there, and at the outlet there is hydrogen 3: 1 with CO, and then CO + H2O -> H2 + CO2, a little more hydrogen.

          And also, if you're interested, here is a link to our latest developments (scientific presentations at TPU)
          https://portal.tpu.ru/htf/proceedings
          There are also catalysts that produce hydrogen from water without heating, but why then gas? lol
          And for the transition period to "green energy" hydrogen can be produced from a lot of things "on demand"
          1. Sergey M. Karasev
            Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 15: 53
            +1
            There are some catalysts that produce hydrogen from water without heating.

            Yes, the whole world would already know about them! The discoverers of SUCH catalysts for the Nobel Prize are not enough!
            1. Katran
              7 February 2021 16: 57
              0
              You are right, I got it wrong, it was catalytic isotope exchange in the water-hydrogen system with the transfer of a heavy isotope - from gas to liquid. The catalyst is our RKhTU-3SM.
      2. Sergey M. Karasev
        Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 10: 38
        +1
        But the yield of a useful product will be far from theoretically possible. Atomic hydrogen is VERY reactive. The situation is saved by the ability of platinoids for intracrystalline sorption of hydrogen, which temporarily takes it out of the game, on which, in fact, the catalytic properties of platinoids are based. But the limit of their sorption saturation is not infinite. IMHO, the hydrogen yield will be about 60%, not higher.
        1. Katran
          7 February 2021 11: 59
          0
          Not only expensive platinum is used for these purposes. Today there are other developments for cheaper materials and metal alloys - aluminum, magnesium, nickel, etc. They are also used to accumulate hydrogen, but only while the amount of hydrogen mass is <20%. Here is a link to the report on the topic https://portal.tpu.ru/files/conferences/htf/tarasov.pdf
          1. Sergey M. Karasev
            Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 15: 51
            +1
            Finely dispersed nickel, magnesium and aluminum oxides are actually used as catalysts, but their catalytic activity is significantly inferior to platinoids and they require higher temperatures and pressures, i.e. energy consumption. Their advantage is solely their low cost. Platinoids are much better suited for processes of fine selective oxidation, which is the partial oxidation of methane. They are required far from tons and, maximum, 100 kilograms, depending on the productivity of the installation. And they can work not even for years, but for decades, of course, with high-quality purification of reagents and strict adherence to the process parameters, excluding coking.
            By the way, I looked on the internet about the development of partial oxidation. They have catalysts, just ruthenium, rhodium and palladium. Their hydrogen yield is promised up to 90%. belay Well, here either they are lying, or my knowledge in the field of catalysis is outdated and requires updating.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Katran
              7 February 2021 17: 11
              +1
              As far as I understood from the materials of the conference, now there is also an emphasis on the creation of a new quality of membranes with a high selective function for the separation of the required component from various gaseous media. More "fine cleaning" is obtained. And fuel cells that generate electricity from hydrogen also gain efficiency. There is progress! good
          2. Sergey M. Karasev
            Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 17: 06
            +1
            In principle, the hydrogen yield can be increased to 90% and higher if the circulation process is carried out with a lack of oxygen with the inclusion of the stage of separation of CO2 and unreacted methane in the cycle by deep cooling or on zeolite membranes. So why not? But these are purely technological tricks. I have not seen any mention of circulation with separation.
            1. Katran
              7 February 2021 17: 29
              +1
              I also did not come across ... But the catalytic decomposition of methane (without air access) with the formation of only hydrogen and carbon is an interesting topic. They even want to carry out marketing in order to trade nanocarbon waste in the EU!
              Personally, I like to extract hydrogen from hydrogen sulfide, saving the inhabitants of the Black Sea wink
              1. Sergey M. Karasev
                Sergey M. Karasev 7 February 2021 18: 08
                +1
                Yes, and me too, especially since the concentration of hydrogen sulfide in the deep Black Sea waters is already close to critical. And gas sulfur is a valuable raw material for the chemical industry.
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 7 February 2021 19: 51
    -1
    Again this nonsense ... Apparently, it pays well: broadcast statements, beautiful pictures and photographs and promises, promises, promises ... Lies, for which no one will ever answer.
    How much it was already! The main thing is to speak louder, more and not to get involved in discussions with those who begin to count and check.
    There is no domestic demand for hydrogen fuel in Russia. And it won't appear in 10-15 years. And if the promises in some way (greetings from New Vasyukov!) Produce 10-15% of the world demand, we will be 100% declared the next embargo and investments in the production of hydrogen will be shoved up the ass.
    With the words: "This has never happened, and now - again!"
    Many times, instead of developing domestic demand, they offer something to quickly get, sell, and - do them.
    good Mavrodi's business is alive and well ...
    1. Katran
      8 February 2021 08: 47
      0
      Again this grunt from the unbeliever Thomas. Lagging behind life, comrade! Times change. This is about how people walk, walk along the boulevards, and then from the loudspeaker: "Air raid! Everyone to the shelter!" The inscription on the bomb shelter lights up and the crowd rushed there. The same thing happened with the hydrogen trend. That is expensive and not needed, otherwise tomorrow is cheap and everyone needs it yesterday. It has already been recorded in government documents, but you still doubt ...
      Colossal funds have already been invested for this and will be invested more. New jobs will appear, the energy sector will change. Open your eyes and see what is happening in the world.
      And then you will shout like jumpers to the last that the Crimean bridge is a fake! lol