Military Review

The Russo-Japanese War as a confirmation of the old rule

301

There is an old rule:


"Smart commanders don't think about strategy, but about logistics."

And it was he who was confirmed by the Russo-Japanese War in all its glory. It is precisely the gaps in supply and basing fleet and led to the result that we know.

Kuropatkin's plan


Disputes about the Russo-Japanese War in general and the catastrophe of the Russian fleet in particular have been going on for more than a century. True, they are moving in the direction of searching for the guilty. Those same legendary switchmen, if you had removed them, everything would have been different. This is not the case.

There were no culprits among the generals and admirals. They were simply given, in principle, an impossible task. And we must start with the plans for war. To understand - they really didn't exist.

On land, Kuropatkin's plan was in effect, the whole point of which was to collect half a million troops and how to hit ... The plan is stupid.

But were there alternatives?

Having neither normal supplies, nor recruits within walking distance (but instead of this - the single-track Transsib in the stage of completion), one can only hope for the numerical superiority, which still needs to be brought up. I will say more - even shoot with caution, because the supply of ammo is not guaranteed.

That, in fact, the brilliant staff officer Kuropatkin understood. So I planned on the basis - while the fleet cuts off the supply to the Japanese, we will gather people and deliver supplies.

All his fault is that he did not consider the position of the fleet. And it was, perhaps, worse than in the army.

There was no fleet in the Pacific Ocean.

There was the Pacific Squadron of the Baltic Fleet, accountable to the governor in the Far East. Formally submitting to Kronstadt, in fact it was a kind of independent force. So independent that in the person of Rear Admiral Vitgeft (who allowed himself to send in a veiled form the head of the General Staff School, Rear Admiral Rozhestvensky), it proudly declared:

"We will draw up the war plan ourselves."

With all this:

1. The only dock for battleships is in Vladivostok. Most of the shipbuilding specialists are in Port Arthur. Between them is the Tsushima Strait, completely controlled by the Japanese.

2. Serious repairs are possible only in the Baltic. Where before the war the detachments of ships and drove. Reinforcements can only be obtained from there. Like shells, and spare parts, and recruits ...

3. For the entire theater of operations, Russia has exactly 2 (two) bases: Port Arthur and Vladivostok. The first is on foreign territory, the second is poorly equipped. Between them is (once again) the Tsushima Strait, which is under someone else's control ...

4. Coal for the furnaces of ships in the Far East was not mined. More precisely, as ... Something was dug there on Sakhalin and Suchan, but of little use. Without logistics. Accordingly - Cardiff, naturally - the delivery of fuel from England by neutral ships with the risk of interception. By the way, no shells were produced in the Far East either, and, in general, nothing was produced. That is, absolutely. The second squadron had to drag the whole train to Vladivostok, including the floating workshop.

5. The fleet is not only ships with guns. This is also transport, and tugs, and other longboats ... All of this was just wildly lacking. Let's say there was exactly 1 (one) icebreaker in freezing Vladivostok. If suddenly, God forbid, we are waiting for spring and freeze-up. Have arrived. It was not for nothing that Skrydlov asked to send Ermak with the Second Squadron. After all, the only "reliable" and serviceable ones did not always pull out.

Summing up all this, one can only be surprised. No, not defeat. And the fact that they held out for so long in the hope of Baltic reinforcements.

Reinforcements


By the way, about reinforcements. It was not that much with them either.

It is known that the emperor handed over first 8, and then four more (3 squadron) battleships to the "bolarin Zinovy". The power is tremendous. But the logistics are damn ...

Firstly, only four of them were linear - of the Borodino type. Another - the fruit of the gloomy Russian genius, the battleship-cruiser, which has no analogues in the world, Oslyabya. More precisely, there were two analogs - already in the Pacific Ocean. And they have already shown themselves from the worst side.

This is our eternal fashion for exclusive ...

We are designing a flying submarine under Khrushchev. Under Stalin, sailors want an aircraft carrier battleship. Then under Nicholas we are building something slower than an armored cruiser. And weaker armed and armored (but healthy and handsome, contagion) than an armadillo. And then into battle after a march across three oceans ...

And the rest?

"Sisoy the Great" (they gave the same name) a ship with new artillery, but such a quality the buildingsthat the French, carrying out repairs, almost fainted. They have so hackwork was not accepted. And even smaller. In order to save money.

"Dish with Music"

in the sense of "Navarin" with black powder, old artillery and in quality - close to Sisoy. As well as on the marasmus of economy on displacement.

Well, and the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov", honestly scratched by the British unsuccessful project. And also outdated.

Nebogatov's squadron is a song. Reinforcements for Rozhestvensky came .... The ancient battering ram "Nicholas I" with artillery not even of the past (like in "Navarin"), but of the generation before last. And three BBOs. What is translated as battleships shore defenses sent by the royal will to ocean hike and fight.

The result - 4 ships of the line, two non-linear ships, two old men, one obsolete misunderstanding and three overgrown gunboats in a linear battle are meaningless.

All this was backed up with light forces - 8 cruisers are enormous power.

True, it is also not without nuances.

Among the eight cruisers, there are actually two for battle. Of these, "Oleg" with problem cars. A "Aurora" with insufficient (for a cruiser) speed. The rest are two ancient armored frigates, two yachts (one with by four three-inch) and two scouts, purely destroyers to drive.

Oh yes. Nine more destroyers. Weaker than Japanese ones. And worn out during the trip.

And this horde was driven across three oceans without entering ports, without repair facilities, without firing on crews. (Who was in the battle - knows. The first time - it's scary. And it turns out differently from the maneuvers).

Conclusion


And why did we fail?

Maybe "bolarin Zinovy" was stupid?

Maybe Nebogatov (champion of Russia in handing over weapons) was cowardly?

Or maybe the sailors did not work well?

No, probably there were few points in the corners. And the nuts (shells) of the wrong model ...

Personally, I blame the admirals for one thing - let's go. And it was necessary to resign and the newspaper scandal. And people would not have died, and the ships were useful, and the fleet would be repaired.

And it turned out that it happened.

There were troughs right up to Gorshkov. Of the fleet did not have.
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  1. nsm1
    nsm1 2 February 2021 18: 08
    -3
    "Sisoy the Great" (they gave the same name) a ship with new artillery, but such a quality of construction that the French, carrying out repairs, almost fainted.
    He is not alone.
    On "Oslyab", also a terrible name, the armor plate fell off under fire.
    Then, after the war, wooden dowels were found on the ships instead of rivets.
    1. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi 2 February 2021 20: 37
      +11
      Quote: nsm1
      He is not alone.
      On "Oslyab"

      Not only the quality of construction is a question. Also in what they built. That is slack in particular, and all overexposures in general. What was it? Unarmored? Cross-cruisers? Healthy, lightly armored and under-armored sheds. Mutants, in a word. Not having a clear purpose. And the goddesses? The point in cruisers that do not have superiority over battleships? The line Rurik-Russia-Thunderbolt also raises more questions than answers. Borodino, Poltava, six-thousanders and pebbles. Perhaps everything that was adequate and suitable for a linear battle. Well, yes. Another tsarevich with a retvisan, and a button accordion. Although the latter is also a controversial boat.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 11: 55
        -7
        Quote: Lannan Shi
        Also in what they built. That is slack in particular, and all overexposures in general. What was it?

        their designer, Admiral Krylov himself called them ub ... kami ... in general, the reason for the defeat in the war is one ..... pathological love for large surface ships, our contemporaries also suffer from it pink ponies = uryapatriots, supporters of sphero horses in a vacuum (battleship destroyers, UDC , Aircraft carriers). If, instead of the outdated Oslyabya-Peresvet, Potemkin had made destroyers and gunboats, they would have won. For example, instead of the unfinished ones to Tsushima, Slava and Potemkin would have received 60-70 destroyers much earlier, then in Tsushima we would have an advantage in forces The construction time of destroyers and gunboats is less and the number of shipyards for them is greater, it is easier to dock them (for example, in about Vladik), in general some pluses .. except pitching .... we have sailors that are afraid of pitching = parquet sailors.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 13: 38
          +4
          Quote: vladimir1155
          If, instead of the outdated Oslyabya-Peresvet, Potemkin had made destroyers and gunboats, they would have won. For example, instead of unfinished to Tsushima, Slava and Potemkin would have received 60-70 destroyers much earlier, then in Tsushima we would have an advantage

          It is highly doubtful. Well, first of all, the Japanese had their own minelayer trivia well over a hundred. Yes, more than half of them are small or outdated, but there were quite enough decent ones. This time. One and a half dozen armored decks, Chiyoda, advice notes. Despite the fact that the torpedo of the 1898 model, at 30 knots, was only 3 cables ... The Japanese would have smashed these destroyers to smithereens and in half. These are two. Well, it's very curious how many destroyers, in a state even remotely resembling combat-ready, would have reached Tsushima. That's three.
          Well, the gunboats against EBR ... It's pretty funny. Even the old man Chin was able to drown them non-stop. And in order to send Mikasa to the bottom, yes, by gunboats ... It would be easier to board it. yes Turbines, dozens, crampons, boarding cleavers, revolvers. Much more real recipe for success than trampling Japanese EBRs, multi-hundred herds of gunboats. lol
          The problem with the ship staff, the RI Navy, was not a shortage of gunboats, but the fact that by 1903 RIF was a very strange zoo. Of ships that are not compatible with each other. By the very ideology of their application, they are not combined. When in one formation it was necessary to drive the same poltavas built for a linear battle, and overexposures, with which this very linear battle was strictly contraindicated. The result of a wild flight of fantasy, the Naval Department. Half of the ships are built for raiding, half for linear combat. In the end ... And there is no one to put in the line, and there are not enough raiders. And they are not purebred raiders, a kind of hybrid that can raid and fight. This is if in theory. And if in practice, then they are not capable of either. Payback for striving - to buy a penny for a penny. yes
          The fleet is expensive, and always has been. But here either-or. Or get into big politics, and then prepare the money gentlemen. Or sit on the priest straight, and not get involved in the showdown of adult uncles.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 16: 00
            -2
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            Well, the gunboats against the EBR.

            very simple arithmetic. EBR has 4 op 305x40, but shoots only two from the nose, three gunboats each have a pair of 305x40, total 2 \ 6 (all three shoot at the same time with all guns) .... count who will go to the bottom faster? and for the cost of one EBR, by the way, you can make not three, but four gunboats
            1. Alf
              Alf 3 February 2021 19: 17
              +7
              Quote: vladimir1155
              three gunboats each have a pair of 305x40,

              What kind of gunboat was carrying a pair of 12-inches at that time? Well, at least one? Well, at least 254 mm?
              Quote: vladimir1155
              count who will go to the bottom faster?

              But a 12-inch hit is unpleasant for the battleship, but not fatal, but a gunboat and a close gap will be enough for the gunboat.
              Quote: vladimir1155
              and for the cost of one EBR, by the way, you can make not three, but four gunboats

              And drive them into at least a 4-5 point storm ..
              You this, tie it with the AI ​​...
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 21: 23
                -1
                Quote: Alf
                Well, at least one? Well, at least 254mm

                in the first, we are burning about hypothetical gunboats of 3000 tons of displacement, similar to Esmeralda (by the way, who successfully fought for the Japanese,), and secondly, a Korean (only 1300 tons) carried the required pair of × 203-mm (35 cal) could have one or even a pair 243 mm if I was younger.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 3 February 2021 21: 25
                  +2
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  we burn about hypothetical gunboats

                  I see, keep on dreaming. You should play with Carbine ...
                2. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 4 February 2021 12: 34
                  0
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  carried the required pair × 203 mm (3

                  hit one of them in battle?
            2. DrEng527
              DrEng527 4 February 2021 12: 33
              0
              Quote: vladimir1155
              very simple arithmetic.

              for, say, amateurs ... bully
              Quote: vladimir1155
              three gunboats and

              there is such a thing - a gun platform, so from a gunboat you will accidentally fall into a ship from such a caliber! bully For example, see Japanese matsushima with 12dm ... laughing
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 14: 51
                0
                From the report of the commander of the "Matsushima" it follows that the 320-mm gun of the cruiser fired three or four times as follows. 12 hours 58 minutes, the first shot, the projectile flew over the Ting Yen. 14 hours 26 minutes - the second shell hit the nose of the Chen Yen. According to the report of Lieutenants Epaichin and Shultz 2nd, the Japanese (probably from Itsukushima - AB) once hit the Chen Yen superstructure with a 320-mm shell.
          2. unknown
            unknown 3 February 2021 19: 58
            +3
            In the battle in the Yellow Sea, the "overexposures" looked no worse in the line than the "Garibaldians".
            Which were the same "underdogs" as the "asams", only of the Italian style.
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 20: 18
              +1
              Quote: ignoto
              In the battle in the Yellow Sea, the "overexposures" looked no worse in the line than the "Garibaldians".

              The only problem is that overexposures and Garibaldians are ships of completely different classes, weight and price categories. The fact that the EBR, albeit of the second class, can on equal terms withstand the cruiser, albeit an armored one, is not a reason for optimism. Plus one more thing. For the price, the three overexposures were approximately equal to the five Garibaldians. Only 6-7% cheaper, which may or may not be taken into account. But the ability of three overexposures to resist five garibaldi ... Causes vague doubts.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 5 February 2021 13: 14
                0
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                But the ability of three overexposures to resist five garibaldi ... Causes vague doubts.

                Russian ten-inch guns freely penetrate 152mm armor from about 30 cables. Armstrong's eight-inch guns cannot do anything with a 229mm GBP in principle.
                So don't even hesitate.
                But even if all five Garibaldians (which is unlikely) will be 2x254, like "Belgrano" (from which, by the way, no one has seen more than 18 nodes), then in this case the enemy will have 10 barrels against twelve, with incomparable combat stability.
                I'm just silent about seaworthiness, autonomy and living conditions. In any case, there has never been an epidemic of dysentery on the "Ruriks". This is to the question why, instead of the latter, they could not build the Garibaldians.
                1. fone
                  fone 8 February 2021 00: 07
                  0
                  But the main belt 229mm was only for the engine and boiler rooms. The cellars were covered with thinner armor (178mm), and if we consider that the armor was Harvey's, then the Garibaldians will also be in the black.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 8 February 2021 10: 42
                    0
                    Quote: fone
                    and if we consider that the armor was Harvey's, then the "Garibaldians" will also be in the black.

                    Why's that? Firstly, the 152mm Garibaldi also does not have the entire side, and secondly, not all cruisers of this type have an analogue of Krupp's armor. (as well as harvey not at all "overexposures")


                    You see, a respected colleague proposed an alternative, as a result of which, instead of three battleships of the "Peresvet" type, five "Garibaldians" will be built. But you can't put Kasuga instead of Oslyabi. Rather it will be "Garibaldi" (Argentinean) or "Belgrano".
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 February 2021 13: 56
          0
          Quote: vladimir1155
          their designer Admiral Krylov

          Maybe it's enough to talk nonsense? !!!
          This concerns, not only Krylov, who taught at the academy during the design of the "overexposures" and was not involved in design.
        3. Ryusey
          Ryusey 3 February 2021 15: 08
          0
          That's how much I read your comments and come to the conclusion that you are either stupid or bought with giblets ...
        4. Lynnot
          Lynnot 8 February 2021 15: 57
          +1
          Enough for you to humiliate "Peresveta". They were conceived not as Ebr, but on the concept of cruising war, mainly as support for the raiders - cruisers of "trade fighters" and they had to fight the British armored cruisers - "defenders of trade" in the ocean. In a general battle, they could play the role of a type of maneuverable "flying squadron", capable of delivering unexpected powerful blows to the enemy squadron due to speed and relatively large caliber of weapons. But they didn't have to act like that ...
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 3 February 2021 14: 07
        0
        Quote: Lannan Shi
        And the goddesses? The point in cruisers that have no superiority in the course over battleships?

        The design speed of these cruisers (laid down in 1896) was 20 knots. Another thing is that it was not reached, although we couldbut just for comparison.
        German cruisers of the "Hertha" type (1896-97) 18-19 knots.
        type "Gazelle" (1897-1901 h.w.) 19,5 knots
        Japanese "Niitaka" (1902 h.c.) - 20 knots
        English diadem type (1895-96) - 20 knots.
        Highflyer (1896) - 20 knots.
        1. unknown
          unknown 3 February 2021 20: 01
          0
          The Japanese "armored cruisers" did not have any superiority in speed over modern battleships, for a long time developing a course of 15 to 17 knots, and could not on equal terms withstand them in fire contact.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 3 February 2021 20: 50
            0
            Something like this.
        2. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 20: 53
          +1
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Another thing is that they did not reach it, although they could,

          Vasya was planning to become the emperor of the galaxy, but he became a homeless person. But I could, I could ... So let's proceed from reality, not from dreams? Huh?
          Germans .. Well, Gerts, who are generally Victoria or Freya, then yes. But. They were written off to training, actually from the stocks. And even though they cover the goddesses' weapons without problems. Gazelle? Yes. Actually gazelle, already with niobe it is quite 21.5. Comparing the British with the goddesses is completely inappropriate. For they were real raiders, with a power reserve 2.2 times higher than the goddesses. And again, the cut of the latter is in service.
          And in general. A trade fighter with a range of just over 3 miles? Sleep of reason. On the roadstead of Kronstadt, or Vladik, apparently, it was planned to catch enemy merchants. yes
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 3 February 2021 21: 23
            +1
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            So let's start with reality, not dreams? Huh?

            Come on, who is against that. In reality, the machines on tests showed almost a thousand indicator forces more than in TTZ. When the Japanese removed the trim and changed the pitch of the propellers (that is, they did not touch the structure), Tsugaru was dispersed to 21 knots.
            But I want to draw your favorable attention to the fact that even with the available speed, the "goddesses" did not at all stand out from the ranks of their classmates.
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            They were written off to training, actually from the stocks.

            Only in your fantasies. And in our reality, they served at foreign stations. And in the training they were identified only after the overhaul that took place in 1905-1911.
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            For they were real raiders, having a power reserve 2.2 times higher than the goddesses. And again, the cut of the latter is in service.

            As far as I understand, the claims have been canceled in terms of speed? :)))
            The range is actually variable. As for the weapons, then again, initially our project was with 10 six-inches. Yes, during the construction process, their number was reduced (not because of a great mind), but according to the results of the RYA they returned to the previous version. And again, without changing the design.
            You see, I don't mean to say that the "goddesses" were a masterpiece of shipbuilding. But do they deserve at least a little objectivity (and knowledge of the materiel), do you think?
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 21: 35
              +2
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              When the Japanese removed the trim and changed the pitch of the propellers

              Are we talking about RIF ships or the Japanese Navy? Let's start from what the RIF ships showed. Huh?
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              And in the training they were identified only after the overhaul that took place in 1905

              Those. 7-8 years after commissioning. And this is not almost immediately, for ships planned for colonial service, i.e. to the function of large gunboats?
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              As far as I understand, the claims have been canceled in terms of speed? :)))

              Not. With the weapons that stood on the goddesses, the power reserve that they had, and with their armor .... The goddesses had to compete, if not with a novice, in speed, then with a boyar for sure.
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              But do they deserve at least a little objectivity (and knowledge of the materiel), do you think?

              Objectively, the goddesses were an example of how not to build ships.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 3 February 2021 22: 15
                +1
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                We are talking about RIF ships

                Yes. And I try in vain to convey to you the idea that the 19 knots shown by the "goddesses" are quite consistent with the speeds of their contemporaries.
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                And this is not almost immediately, for ships scheduled for colonial service

                I appreciated your resourcefulness, but please note after 5-7 years of service, this is by no means a quote:
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                written off to training, actually from the slipway.


                Quote: Lannan Shi
                With the weapons that stood on the goddesses

                Wait a second. For some reason, you consider the "goddesses" to be raiders, but in fact they were intended to serve in the squadron. And for service with the squadron and the fight against destroyers, 75mm guns in large quantities were considered necessary. And they are all right there. Yes, this opinion, like many others, turned out to be wrong. And this was fixed over time. But for their direct duties, the "goddesses" were also suitable in their original form.
                For comparison, I can cite the Japanese dogs "Takosago", "Kasagi" and "Chitose", on which the Japanese piled up a pair of as many as 8 "guns and which never got anywhere. 10mm guns. Five on board ...
                the goddesses also have a side salvo of five, but six-inches. But at the same time, a strong body, water-tube boilers and the real speed (and not the one shown in the tests) is almost identical.
                Who will you bet on?
                1. Lannan Shi
                  Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 22: 33
                  0
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  The 19 knots shown by the "goddesses" are quite consistent with the speeds of their contemporaries.

                  Only frankly disgusting Frey. They were not immediately written off only because there was nothing to replace. Yes, it’s. Replace in colonies, not in the active fleet.
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  but in reality they were intended for service with the squadron.

                  And this version has the right to life. Like "to equalize the forces in the Baltic." Just look at the height of the side of the goddesses. Huh? Where is the Baltic, and where is this Chinese wall? Board of a typical ocean raider., But not a cruiser for the Baltic.
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  For comparison, I can cite the Japanese dogs "Takosago", "Kasagi" and "Chitose"

                  Well yes. If the goddesses are closer to the masterpiece, then not much. But if you compare with akasi, or niitaka, then here the goddesses look extremely poor. The performance characteristics are actually niitak, with VI it is 2-2.5 times more. And being overweight is extra money. But the goddesses had to be stuck in the place of niitak. Having received boats, for the same money, 2 times less than it would be possible. Consequences of throwing in foreign policy, and the lack of a coherent program at the Naval Department. yes
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 3 February 2021 23: 00
                    +1
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    Only frankly disgusting Frey.

                    to all of those listed by me. The difference of one knot is not significant.
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    And this version has the right to life. Like "to equalize forces in the Baltic"

                    Where did you get this nonsense?
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    Just look at the height of the side of the goddesses.

                    God, what progress! You learned that performance characteristics are not limited to a plate with weapons :)))
                    Now, what does the height of the side and the Baltic have to do with it? Somewhere there was a "supreme command" to build exclusively low-sided vessels for the Baltic? Or the squadrons for which the "goddesses" were intended are only in the Baltic?
                    Wake up !!!
                    But if you compare with akasi, or niitaka, then here the goddesses look extremely poor.

                    There are two points. On the one hand, I really think that XNUMXK models are not optimal in principle. And that a ship of a slightly more moderate displacement would have done no worse for less money.
                    But on the other hand, the options you choose ... are something!
                    but here again it is not necessary to compare the plates with the number of guns, but to climb into the jungle about which you do not even guess :)))
                    Seaworthiness, stability, hull weakness, CMU reliability ...
                    In short, what a kapets bad example. They look extremely pathetic against the background of "goddesses"
                    And all they can, when meeting one on one, is to try to escape using their not too great advantage in speed. But with the slightest excitement, they cannot realize it. Something like that.
                    1. Lannan Shi
                      Lannan Shi 4 February 2021 19: 53
                      0
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      to all of those listed by me. The difference of one knot is not significant.

                      Oh how ... And at 1,1? And at 1,2? And at 1,3? Well, why bother ordering 20? It is possible and 19. The difference is insignificant. And you can 18. What's the difference 18 or 19? So we get to the point that the cruiser and a couple of knots are enough. yes
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Where did you get this nonsense?

                      And different sources say differently about the reason for the order of the goddesses. But you can present your version of why in the Baltic, or even in Vladik, seaworthy high-board cruisers are needed, with a cruising range like that of another harbor tug.
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Seaworthiness, stability, weakness of the hull, reliability of the CMU .... In short, what a bad example.

                      Truth? Well, give an example from history when, taking advantage of their superiority in the listed factors, the goddesses, or there ryurik-like, heroically hung the Japanese. But the opposite examples, when the RIF stupidly lacked armored decks, or armored cruisers, any ... Actually, the whole war at sea with the Japanese is one continuous example of the fact that a pair of niitak is better, even if they are so-so, than one goddess who however, also that, not a masterpiece.
                      1. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 5 February 2021 09: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        The difference is insignificant

                        For ships of the same generation, yes. Especially when compared with the real speed in everyday use.
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        But you can state your version

                        Take Polenov, then read (and not speculate) and you will be happy.
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Well, give an example from history, when using your superiority in the listed factors

                        Naval history is not limited to RYA and there are more than enough such examples.
                        But also according to RYAV. If in the place of "Aurora" with "Oleg" in Tsushima or "Askold" and with "Diana" at Shatntung, the cruisers you proposed would have remained there. This is called combat resilience.
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        An example of the fact that a pair of niitak is better, even if they are so-so, than one goddess

                        And here I agree, but with a couple of reservations.
                        1) Not "Niitaka".
                        2) I strongly doubt that one goddess would have made a pair of "Niitak".
                      2. Lannan Shi
                        Lannan Shi 5 February 2021 11: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        For ships of the same generation, yes.

                        The sea is not a taiga. You can't sit out in the bushes. And 1 node is a chance to catch up / leave. Losing only 1 node, you are obviously losing to the enemy. Letting him choose when and how he will hit you.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Take Polenov, then read

                        And you discover a funny thing. That Chikhachev wanted ocean raiders, but got coastal gunboats. But terribly seaworthy. yes But with the rationale for how and why the ocean raider turned into a coaster ... This is somehow difficult for Polenov. yes
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Be in the place of "Aurora" with "Oleg" in Tsushima or "Askold" and with "Diana" at Shatntung

                        Maybe. But if RIF had not three goddesses, but six niitak-like ones, and not three Rurik-like ones, but five similar to garibaldi, then tsushima might not exist. For 4 BrKr and 8 BpKr (I don’t consider outright junk and light too), to the Baltic and quiet, this is one compote, but 6 and 11 are completely different.
                        The speed of 20 and higher, the Japanese, even in theory, could hold 6 BrKr and 9 BpKr, and the RIF, when replacing the Ruriks and goddesses with something adequate, albeit not raider, but equal in terms of the amount of costs, would set 6 and 11. And taking into account the individual superiority of six-thousanders over any Japanese armored deck, we do not even get parity, but a noticeable advantage in high-speed cruising forces, and freedom of cruising operations. And how would the supply of troops go, in conditions when not Jessen is running from Kamimura, but Kamimura is hiding from Jessen, the question is interesting. But the courage of the Japanese army, such a supply would definitely not add. And even the arrival of the Nissin with the cashier set the maximum parity.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        2) I strongly doubt that one goddess would have made a pair of "Niitak".

                        Aurora - 6,4 million, both pebbles - 6.8 million, Novik + Boyarin - 6.7 million. Won't we count it as a trifle? Huh?
    2. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 19: 55
      0
      Mutants? And what about the Japanese "armored cruisers"? Conceived as a "fast wing", but in real life? And in real life, the long run of these "cruisers" was from 15 knots to 17 knots.
      That is, these "cruisers" could not get away from modern battleships, but could they resist? One on one ? For battleships, the main caliber is 305 mm, the mass of the projectile is 331 kg, for the "overexposures" - 254 mm, the mass of the projectile is 225 kg, and for the "armored cruisers" - 203 mm, the mass of a light, "colonial" projectile is 93,5 kg ... What kind of ships are they that do not have a clear tactical purpose?
      I agree with those researchers who believe that two or three battleships, even the outdated Fuji type, would be much more useful than these six so-called "armored cruisers".
      PS "Goddesses" had a speed of 19 knots. They had a trim on the nose, hence the poor handling, and a lack of speed. But, the Japanese, having restored the "Pallada", quickly got rid of the trim. To do this, they only needed to place variable loads differently. The speed has increased, the handling has improved. There is information that the commander of the "Aurora" similarly got rid of this problem during the campaign to Tsushima.
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 20: 22
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        And in real life, the long run of these "cruisers" was from 15 knots to 17 knots.

        Do you suppose that a linear battle could last for weeks and months? In real life, the speed of the Garibaldians was quite enough to "put the wand over T", or to catch up with the Rurik-like ones. More of them was not required. In principle, they did not pretend to be the owners of the Atlantic blue ribbon.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 February 2021 20: 49
          +1
          Quote: Lannan Shi
          In real life, the speed of the Garibaldians was quite enough to "put the wand over T", or catch up with the Rurik-like ones.

          What are you talking about! And you can find out when exactly "Nishin" with "Kasuga" (and there were no other Garibaldians in the United Fleet) made a wand over T and caught up with the Rurik-like ones?
          1. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 20: 59
            0
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            (and there were no other Garibaldians in the United Fleet)

            And the Asamoids? No no. I know. Good old England, elswick, and so on blah blah blah. But ideologically then? Seamless design with garibaldi. In opposition to whom, and in the full likeness of which, it was created. yes
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 3 February 2021 21: 06
              0
              Quote: Lannan Shi
              And the Asamoids?

              Uh ... bigger, better armored (GBP up to 178 mm versus 152), more powerful machines, due to which they are faster. There is nothing in common, except, perhaps, the concept of a "second class battleship".
              Quote: Lannan Shi
              One-piece project with garibaldi. In opposition to whom, and in full likeness of which, and was created

              The Lord is with you, where did you get this from?
              1. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 21: 15
                -1
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Uh ... bigger, better armored

                Discrepancies in parameters, on average, are 5-6%. Serial ships of the same shipyard were sometimes more different.
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                The Lord is with you, where did you get this from?

                Should I believe the official version? With the evolution of the Higins? Sorry, but in the asame there is much less from the Higins than in me from the black weightlifter.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 3 February 2021 21: 47
                  +1
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  Discrepancies in parameters, on average, fit that way in 5-6%

                  Seriously?
                  "Asama" was founded in 1896. displacement of 9700 tons.
                  "Genral Belgrano" of the same year 6800 growth of more than 40%
                  Should I continue?
                  I can compare CMU, artillery protection and many other differences, but is it necessary ...
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  I have to believe

                  I do not discuss matters of faith.
                  But here is the very case when knowledge is better than blind faith.
                  1. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 22: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    "Asama" was founded in 1896. displacement of 9700 tons.

                    AND? The difference in weight between garibaldi and cassuga is 20%. Between the cashier and the asama 20%. In terms of armament, the kassuga is closer to the asame than to the garibaldi. Why is she of the same type with a less similar to her garibaldi, and not with a more similar asama ... Riddle ...
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    But here is the very case when knowledge is better than blind faith.

                    Look at the Higins and the Garibaldi. Try to find what the asama has in common with the first option and with the second. The manufacturer is in common with the first, but with the second ... But of course not. A gentleman cannot copy someone else's, and slightly modify it with a file. He's an English Zhentelmun, not an Italian. lol
                    Here is Esmeralda 2, then yes - a typical Elswick. There are no questions here. And the line of cressy-drake-kent is typically English. No problem. But the sirs honestly pulled the asamoids. yes
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 3 February 2021 22: 38
                      +1
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Weight discrepancy between garibaldi and kassuga 20%

                      That is still not 5-6% :))) And then bread.
                      In addition, Kasuga was built later than Asama. Tell me, how can you take a ship that has not yet been built as a prototype? So compare with "Belgrano" :)))
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      In terms of armament, the kassuga is closer to the asame than to the garibaldi.

                      In other words, apart from a plate with short performance characteristics, you have not mastered anything?
                      And tell me, please, from the fact that the "Tsesarevich", "Retvizan" and "Majestic" have almost identical weapons, they become the same?
                      Or is it not about the number of guns?
                      Try to find what the asama has in common with the first option and with the second.

                      With the second, there is definitely nothing in common, except for formal belonging to one class :))
                      http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MKA/2006_01/02.htm
                      http://wunderwafe.ru/Magazine/MK/1995_03/04.htm
                      Tell me, do you in principle not consider the possibility that British engineers were able to develop an armored cruiser project on their own? They bake them like hot cakes at the same time. "Cressy", "Drakes", "Kents" ...
                    2. Lannan Shi
                      Lannan Shi 3 February 2021 23: 06
                      0
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      In addition, Kasuga was built later than Asama. Tell me, how can you take a ship that has not yet been built as a prototype?

                      And I wrote somewhere. that Asama was pulled from the Kasugi? There was no such thing. It was licked off from the garibaldi. yes
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      And tell me, please, from the fact that the "Tsesarevich", "Retvizan" and "Majestic" have almost identical weapons, they become the same?

                      Of course not. But the legs of C and R grow exactly from there. Although soon all the same from a canopus or formdebla. Industrial espionage has not been for a year or two. Here the account is for centuries rather.
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MKA/2006_01/02.htm

                      thanks, but my wunderwaffe is crammed into links. lol
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Tell me, do you in principle not consider the possibility that British engineers were able to develop an armored cruiser project on their own?

                      Alas, no. More precisely, some kind of abstract cruiser, it's easy. But so out of bounds and out of the general course of development of their school? As it is very doubtful.
                      Take a look at the swiftshur. By the way, built for the same aircraft. Tracing paper from Duncan, who was cut off the GK, and fed the middle one. Even the outlines are almost identical. No questions. English creativity. But asamoids knock out of the concept very noticeably. yes
                      That's all, sorry. Although such a discussion is pleasant, without unnecessary confrontation, mutual aggression, and other delights, but alas and ah. Time...
                      Have a good night. yes
                    3. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 5 February 2021 09: 42
                      +1
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      thanks, but my wunderwaffe is crammed into links.

                      And what prevents you from at least familiarizing yourself with the drawings?
                      Questions would disappear by themselves ...
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Although such a discussion is pleasant, without unnecessary confrontation, mutual aggression, and other delights

                      And all the best to you :)
    3. rytik32
      rytik32 3 February 2021 23: 48
      0
      Quote: Lannan Shi
      catch up with the Rurik-like

      In fact, it did not always work out
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 4 February 2021 12: 31
    0
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    What was it? Unarmored? Cross-cruisers?

    compare with asamoids - which is better? bully With proper use, overexposures would be very effective - for example, in the fight against the transport of Japanese in the Yellow Sea and the Korean Strait ... For example, a detachment of 2-3 overexposures, 3 Ruriks and 3 goddesses to force the Japanese to throw the EBR to protect communications, Asamoids are not suitable against them ... And then who will block the PA? hi The question is not in technology, but its use request
  • PPD
    PPD 17 February 2021 19: 14
    0
    That is slack in particular, and all overexposures in general. What was it?

    These were armored cruisers. In the documents, they were originally listed that way.
    It was our Henii who translated, really, well, but the WH-battleship sounds menacing.
    Then Peresvet was officially called who he was and was originally a cruiser.
    Author-Borodino-battleships !! ???? fool
    Strong!
  • Alf
    Alf 2 February 2021 20: 57
    +7
    Quote: nsm1
    On "Oslyab", also a terrible name,

    And nothing, what was the name of the monk who went out on the Kulikovo field against Chelubey? Yes, and Oslyabya is a surname, name is Rodion. A normal surname, no worse than modern Deripasok or




    Or "theirs."
    Oliver Stone-Stone.
    John Carpenter-Carpenter.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 2 February 2021 22: 11
      +9
      Quote: Alf
      On "Oslyab", also a terrible name,

      And nothing, what was the name of the monk who went out on the Kulikovo field against Chelubey? Yes, and Oslyabya is a surname, name is Rodion.

      Strictly speaking, "Oslyabya" is a nickname, but not the essence. In any case, this is the traditional name in the RIF for cruiser / frigate class ships.
      The name "Sisoy the Great" seems strange only to us, who do not know their history and culture of that time. "Sysoy" was the name of at least four ships of the line of the sailing fleet, this is the name of a rather revered saint, and finally, "Sysoy" is one of the largest bells in Russia.
      1. Lynnot
        Lynnot 8 February 2021 16: 43
        +1
        On the question of names - for a modern person and the Russian language, the name "Three hierarchs" finally can be in any frame. And in the 18th - 19th centuries it was very respected.
    2. nsm1
      nsm1 3 February 2021 05: 59
      -7
      Not convincing.
      References to foreigners are generally inappropriate.
      Are we imitating monkeys?
      How should they be with us?
      From these examples, the name of the ship never ceased to remind of a donkey or weakening.
      "As you name a yacht, it will float" ™
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 12: 04
        +1
        Quote: nsm1
        As you name the yacht, it will float

        this is the memory of the victory on the sandpiper field ... Oslyabya = the hero brother of Peresvet, Dmitry Donskoy especially begged Sergius of Radonezh to give him these kind Warriors known throughout Russia ..., unlike some of our contemporaries ... who do not know the tribe .. .. in modern Russian it is either the surname Pirozhkov or Sinichkin ...
        (m., old., proper name, here - a derivative form - Old Russian patronymic Aslebyatev, 1424, indicating the presence in the producing name of the stem in -ęt- (see Bogatova, "Vestnik Mosk. un -ta ", 1958, No 2, p. 63). Oslyabya - from * osl-ęb-ęt- from donkey (see) Suff. -ęb- is known in the names of living beings, cf. olyabka. - T.)
        Polyapka - bird "Cinclus aquaticus", olives, olives "type of pie". According to Sobolevsky ("Slavia", 5, 439), they go back to * el- + suf. -ęb- and deer are related, Greek. ἔλαφος (from * elɨ̥̄bhos). They also try to bring the name of the bird closer to blurt; see Goryaev, Supplement. 2, 27. Unreliable. Komi аl᾽аbi̮š "barley flour pie" borrowings. from Russian. (Vihm.-Wotila 3).
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 2 February 2021 21: 54
    +4
    Go to Wikipedia and see how new it was. He just shortly before the war, arrived from the Far East to the Baltic, for overhaul)))) but in general, the reasons for Russia's defeat in this war are much broader and deeper than the author described. Entire tomes have been written on this subject, and the author has fit everything into five paragraphs)))
  • Roman81
    2 February 2021 23: 25
    +1
    The eagle was nearly drowned
  • svp67
    svp67 2 February 2021 18: 08
    +6
    They were simply given, in principle, an impossible task. And we must start with the plans for the war. To understand - they really didn't exist.
    Wow, you ... is it not the fault of the RI generals?
    Coal for the furnaces of ships in the Far East was not mined. More precisely, as ... Something was dug there on Sakhalin and Suchan, but of little use.
    I will not say about Sakhalin, but Suchansky coal, now partisan, coal is of the highest quality and it was quite used to supply warships. Another thing is that by 1904 they really did not have good logistics, but then ...
    During the first ten years of its development, the Suchansky mine turned into the largest coal enterprise in the Far East. Coal production in the mines of the mine by 1910 increased by 1033% (from 100% in 1903). The main consumer of Suchansk coal was the maritime and military departments. Labor productivity at the Suchansky mines, with a concentration of 1400 workers, in 1910 reached 8.671 poods per person. Such results were achieved due to the constant improvement of the technique and technology of coal mining.
    At the end of 1909, for the first time in Siberia and the Far East, a rescue station was created at the Suchansk coal enterprise and a rescue team was formed. In 1910, new sorting and ventilation mechanisms were installed to transfer anthracite from mine No. 1 to the loading station of the Suchansky narrow-gauge line. By this time, a cable-wire ropeway, the Bleichert system, with a length of 3,5 km had already been built, along which 30.000 poods of coal were transported per day.
    For better use of Suchansk coal, a briquette plant with a capacity of up to 200.000 tons per year of high-quality (smokeless) products was specially built in Vladivostok. The mines in 1910 gave this plant a net profit of 160 thousand rubles.
    In 1910 the demand for coal in the Far East reached 23 million poods. This year, the Suchansky mine produced 12.139.957 poods of coal, and in 1911 13.208.931 poods, which is 43-44% of the total coal demand in the Far East region. The Suchansk state mines alone produced more coal than all the private coal enterprises in the Far East taken together (Zybunnye mines of L. Sh. Skidelsky, Walden, etc.).
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 2 February 2021 18: 11
      +6
      Quote: svp67
      Wow, you ... that is, it is not the fault of the RI generals?

      Here V.I. was right. Lenin.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 2 February 2021 18: 19
        +6
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Here V.I. was right. Lenin.

        By the way, he said well: "A whitewashed coffin." It would be interesting for you to read the Russian newspapers of 1906 about the trials of Rozhestvensky, Nebogatov, Stoessel ... wow, the journalists frolicked there ... It's a pity, my archive is closed due to a virus!
        1. icant007
          icant007 2 February 2021 19: 11
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          It would be interesting for you to read the Russian newspapers of 1906 about the trials of Rozhestvensky, Nebogatov, Stoessel ... wow, the journalists frolicked there ... It's a pity, my archive is closed due to a virus!


          There is a whole nine-volume edition of 1910 about the Russian-Japanese war, compiled by the military-historical commission.
          The first volume alone has 868 pages)
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 2 February 2021 19: 26
            0
            Quote: icant007
            The first volume alone has 868 pages)

            I looked at a French illustrated edition and one of these volumes. Great photos in French, but incomprehensible. There is too much of everything in our edition, nobody needs so much. You need information in moderation.
            1. icant007
              icant007 2 February 2021 19: 42
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              You need information in moderation.



              It depends on whom) It will not be superfluous for the researcher.

              But I, for example, barely mastered half of the first volume. It's hard to get through. You must have a map with you, also with old geographical names.

              In general, reading pre-revolutionary historical literature is a pleasure. Just because of the style.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 2 February 2021 20: 16
                +3
                Quote: icant007
                In general, reading pre-revolutionary historical literature is a pleasure. Just because of the style.

                I agree! But the look clings to YAT and FITA
              2. kalibr
                kalibr 2 February 2021 20: 20
                +5
                Quote: icant007
                It depends on whom) It will not be superfluous for the researcher.

                Ha ha! And for a researcher ... in 1988, an acquaintance of mine wrote a candidate dissertation on the history of the CPSU in 800 pages! So the supervisor refused to read it, and the Council supported. They told me to cut it down to 180 pages. And so much of the factual material was ... But another friend wrote a standard work of 180 pages, but introduced 1159 sources in it into scientific circulation. Managed to show a high level of generalization!
                1. icant007
                  icant007 2 February 2021 20: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Ha ha! And for the researcher ...


                  Well, on the other hand, yes. Great knowledge multiplies sorrow)))
          2. mat-vey
            mat-vey 2 February 2021 20: 34
            0
            Quote: icant007
            There is a whole nine-volume edition of 1910 about the Russian-Japanese war, compiled by the military-historical commission.
            The first volume alone has 868 pages)

            That's why you believe historians at their word))))
            1. icant007
              icant007 2 February 2021 20: 40
              -3
              Quote: mat-vey
              That's why you believe historians at their word))))


              Who to believe? Mueller? )))
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 3 February 2021 04: 18
                +1
                Well, if you have so much free time to re-read what they read during work, maybe you.
                1. icant007
                  icant007 3 February 2021 06: 34
                  -1
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Well, if you have so much free time to re-read what they read during work, maybe you.


                  It follows from this that you still need to believe historians. But historians are different.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 February 2021 06: 35
                    0
                    Quote: icant007
                    But historians are different.

                    And here you can also believe .. and you need))))
        2. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 2 February 2021 19: 12
          +9
          It is enough to read A. Stepanov's novel "Port Arthur" to understand the essence of that time.
          The author of the article did it all too easily somehow. One - two and all the guilty on the surface.
          1. icant007
            icant007 2 February 2021 19: 44
            +1
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            It is enough to read A. Stepanov's novel "Port Arthur" to understand the essence of that time.
            The author of the article did it all too easily somehow. One - two and all the guilty on the surface.



            Well, "Port Arthur" is still more about landowners. And the author in the article is mainly about the fleet.

            It is necessary for Novikov-Priboi to read Tsushima.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 2 February 2021 21: 29
              +3
              And with that and with the other it is necessary to begin, but certainly not to end. If, of course, you want to understand the RYAV.
              1. icant007
                icant007 3 February 2021 06: 30
                -2
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                And with that and with the other it is necessary to begin, but certainly not to end. If, of course, you want to understand the RYAV.


                Yes, I read all this when I was 12)
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 3 February 2021 13: 13
                  +1
                  well, I'm like this :)))
                  I've just read a lot more since then ...
            2. gsev
              gsev 3 February 2021 17: 08
              0
              Quote: icant007
              It is necessary for Novikov-Priboi to read "Tsushima"

              Probably V.I. Semenov in his books (for example, "Reckoning") gave a more objective picture of the naval war with Japan. He managed to take out the ship entrusted to him from Port Arthur, flee to Russia from Vietnam, where he was interned and took part in the Tsushima battle, was wounded, was tried along with Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky. He also translated Japanese books about this war. It's just that his worldview was not close to the communist, so after the 1920s his books were forgotten. It is interesting to note that Rozhdestvensky did not shoot a single subordinate in the campaign to the Tsushima battle. Novikov-Priboy describes the admiral as a despot and tyrant. I wonder how many death orders were signed by the battalion commander and political instructor on average during the war?
        3. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 2 February 2021 20: 52
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          It would be interesting for you to read the Russian newspapers of 1906 about the trials of Rozhestvensky, Nebogatov, Stoessel ... wow, the journalists frolicked there ... It's a pity, my archive is closed due to a virus!

          Something is in print, but not much. Of course it would be interesting to read. All my knowledge about the Japanese War of 1904, to a greater extent, is the memories of my great-grandfather, a participant in that war, the builder of the Chinese Eastern Railroad and the captain of the Nerchinsk regiment.
      2. unknown
        unknown 3 February 2021 20: 04
        0
        Which one exactly?
        In the photo and film materials, the researchers identify at least four different people playing the role of "Lenin".
        Apparently, the real one, Nikolai Karpov, who arrived with Trotsky from the United States on an "opium" steamer to make a "revolution" in Russia, was killed in 1918.
    2. mat-vey
      mat-vey 2 February 2021 18: 15
      +6
      Quote: svp67
      Wow, you ... is it not the fault of the RI generals?

      Yes, it turns out interestingly - there are generals, but there are no plans ... And then why generals?
      1. svp67
        svp67 2 February 2021 18: 18
        +5
        Quote: mat-vey
        Yes, it turns out interesting - there are generals, but there are no plans ...

        Moreover, the same Kurapatkin spent most of his service at staff work. In particular, Skobelev
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 2 February 2021 18: 28
          -1
          It turns out when all the hope for "women will give birth" went to command ..
      2. dgonni
        dgonni 2 February 2021 19: 18
        -1
        There was no strategy as such!
        This is how we entered Afghan! What did they tell us? Prevent amers for a year and a half and go home!
        Well, then everyone knows. The winter mine war showed many and many.
        The Chinese had to be read, although whoever read them in the Central Election Commission.
        1. icant007
          icant007 2 February 2021 19: 49
          -1
          Quote: dgonni
          There was no strategy as such!


          Yes, the strategies were in the form of deployment plans. Only these plans were cough-cough.
          I always did not understand why the Russian command did not interfere with the landing at Jingzhou.
          It turns out that this was provided for by the war plans.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 12: 11
            0
            Quote: icant007
            Yes, the strategies were in the form of deployment plans. Only these plans were cough-cough.

            Now, according to the plans for the deployment of the Navy, 1 first the enemy will let know that he is going to attack .... and the Baltic let's go to the north .... let's go ... let's go .... "We know we sailed .. already in 2" and we will defend our nuclear submarines.
        2. mat-vey
          mat-vey 2 February 2021 20: 20
          0
          Quote: dgonni
          There was no strategy as such!

          But with logistics, everything seems to be normal?))
        3. unknown
          unknown 3 February 2021 20: 06
          -1
          What does the Americans have to do with it?
          Amin was a Maoist.
          China was our main enemy in Afghanistan.
      3. Roman81
        2 February 2021 20: 08
        +2
        And what plan is possible if the railway is unfinished and single-track, if you cannot place the troops BEFORE and AFTER it is long and sad? In this context, everything is logical - we retreat and wait for reinforcements.
        1. icant007
          icant007 2 February 2021 20: 13
          -2
          There was also a revaluation of China. It was believed that in the event of war, China would definitely join Japan.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 02
            0
            all because of Korea - they tried the highest (St. Petersburg) to probe where the Yapas will stop. "Divided the spheres."
            1. unknown
              unknown 3 February 2021 20: 07
              0
              Exactly. The Japanese considered moving the capital of their state to Seoul.
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 2 February 2021 21: 49
          +3
          Well, for example, not to drag untrained storerooms to the theater of operations, but to transfer the primary parts from European Russia. Do not leave positions without a fight when the enemy appears, and if they retreat, then with battles. Reinforce the garrison of Port Arthur. Abandon idiotic detachment tactics, suitable only for colonial wars, and not pull apart units to create indistinct "detachments of three types of troops"
          1. Roman81
            2 February 2021 23: 34
            +1
            Could not. Treaty and French loans. And the guards could not - internal unrest
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 3 February 2021 13: 48
              0
              Quote: Roman81
              Could not.

              Come on!
              Quote: Roman81
              Treaty and French loans.

              Could you quote which clause of the agreement interfered with?
              Not to mention how loans demanded to flee throwing artillery ...
              Quote: Roman81
              And the guards could not - internal unrest

              riots in 1904?
        3. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 12: 14
          -1
          Quote: Roman81
          unfinished and single track,

          single-track is not so little, but unfinished is surmountable, we changed to Baikal and drove on.
          1. gsev
            gsev 3 February 2021 17: 16
            0
            Quote: vladimir1155
            single-track is not so little, but unfinished is surmountable, we changed to Baikal and drove on.

            It is interesting to read in the memoirs of Kovalev (People's Commissar of Railway Transport at the end of the war and Mao Tse-tung's adviser on transport after 1945) how the Soviet General Staff almost lost the war with the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol by frivolously sending all echelons to unload at the Olovyannaya station, unable to pass the entire mass through itself troops and equipment.
          2. antivirus
            antivirus 3 February 2021 20: 51
            -1
            accidentally read - the launch of the Trans-Siberian Railway happened with wooden bridges. it was permissible for r \ n and then gradually changed.
            AND THE MAIN IMPORTANT IS THE MEETINGS TO SKIP - THE ENTRANCE. how now BAM is being expanded by trillions. The Transsib was an empty pig.
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 21: 17
              0
              Quote: antivirus
              The Transsib was.
              the greatest achievement of that time, then almost all railways were single-track, the siding of the station was normal ... and also steam locomotives
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 4 February 2021 12: 30
                0
                when almost all railways were single-track, the siding of the station was normal

                - Yes or no! the patrols make sense at a certain distance between them - they were too big in 1904.
                a one-way road turned out. it had to be filled with cargo and expanded to 2-way.
                was not recouped then.
                psychology and calculations like now ...
                The Transsib paid off in 50 years, in a different country and in a world situation.
        4. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 3 February 2021 23: 50
          0
          Quote: Roman81
          And what plan is possible if the railway is unfinished and single-track, if you cannot place the troops BEFORE and AFTER it is long and sad?

          Council, do not meddle with minus. The question of that war, even under the USSR, was not fully understood. There you had to be born and live in order to understand something.
    3. mark1
      mark1 2 February 2021 18: 21
      +2
      When the state hurts, everyone and no one is to blame (in the sense that they will always find someone more to blame, and so on in a circle), but all the heroes
    4. Undecim
      Undecim 2 February 2021 18: 44
      +11
      Tell me how all the splendor you described helped in the Russian-Japanese war, if the first two mines, having started mining in 1904, immediately stopped it due to the lack of an opportunity to export the mined coal and resumed work only in September 1905. Coal was transported by carts to the Nakhodka Bay.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 2 February 2021 19: 07
        +12
        Some kind of individual tells a minus, but is not able to designate his point of view. Probably can't write.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 2 February 2021 19: 13
          +6
          I will dance. Although this makes you neither warm nor cold, but it is insulting. Itself today I otked from the "pack".
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 05
            +1
            Are you afraid to lose "shoulder straps"?


            .................................................. .... "playing nuclear war will prevent it." and the game in VO will strengthen the defense of the Russian Federation ... ... and the biceps of conscripts.
            1. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 3 February 2021 02: 44
              +2
              Quote: antivirus
              and the game in VO

        2. mat-vey
          mat-vey 2 February 2021 19: 20
          +8
          Quote: Undecim
          Some kind of individual tells a minus, but is not able to designate his point of view.

          It reminds me of an old anecdote:
          One man suddenly fell into misfortune: his wife left, the car
          crashed, the apartment was robbed, the dacha burned down ... He fell to his knees and prayed:
          - Lord, for what!
          Then the heavens opened and a thunderous voice answered:
          - Well, I don't like you, understand?
    5. Roman81
      2 February 2021 20: 06
      0
      Then it's all great. But then you won't throw it into the furnace
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 2 February 2021 23: 30
        +1
        Here I am reading, Russian-Soviet "research" on this topic, there is about who turned how, how much of what he spent, how this and that did not work out, and about heroism, how much without it. But in Japanese real studies, in addition to a thorough study of the actions of each ship, each hit of a projectile is described, what damage it caused, the consequences, approximately from which ship it flew in, and so on with a bunch of technical details. We have some emotions with a slight touch of analysis of the operational art and an emphasis on heroism, the Japanese have a purely operational and tactical analysis with a full technical overview ...
        1. Roman81
          2 February 2021 23: 35
          0
          According to the stories of Zinovy's great-grandson, published by the media, the admiral was eager to write his memoirs, burned the drafts, complained - how not to write, but the tsar comes out ... ugly
  • Andy
    Andy 2 February 2021 18: 17
    +1
    What was it??
  • Avior
    Avior 2 February 2021 18: 19
    +6
    The author out of the blue determined who was not to blame; he did not blame admirals and generals.
    The question arises, who is to blame, according to the author?
    He somehow missed this moment.
    1. Rose capone
      Rose capone 2 February 2021 18: 26
      -4
      Yes, the Russian-Japanese war, flop.
      Adnaka: Considering the highest level of corruption and decay of the top, which we, by pure misunderstanding, are called the "elite", the destructive Westernization of education, which, under the pressure of its "modernizers" from the Higher School of Economics, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Education, takes over from the West all the worst that is possible there to find irreversible criminalization of the administrative class and the dominance of the bureaucratic-bureaucratic apparatus at all levels, the picture turns out to be grim. And efforts to organize the Russian Maidan fit into this picture, since Navalny, his supporters and the much more dangerous, but so far not named by anyone, the Russian "roof", make an open stake on him, supported in this by European leaders and the American leadership ... Only deaf-blind-mute people can fail to see what, however, there are plenty of them in our country.

      From the zigzags of their quasi-patriotic opponents, diligently imitating for the bosses to strengthen their own positions in power and the development of budgets, then the creation of pro-government movements and the production of "spiritual bonds" on the stream, then the rise of Orthodox monarchist sentiments, then some other cholera from the same area boltological nonsense, however, the harm is not less, if not more. Despite the fact that the level of public confidence in the authorities is already traditionally low, all these extremely awkward and annoying body movements that cause acute toothache only bring down. And for good reason. Fortunately, the trust rating in the country is high only for the incumbent president, who is clearly the only one who more or less knows how to speak with the population in such a way as not to piss him off. Which, by the way, is precisely why the main propaganda blow is now directed at him in his personal capacity.
      Doing fatal wills,
      Lifting their labor on the ramen,
      Russia cannot concede -
      She must triumph!
      And you, people of another Rock,
      You, the advanced countries of the old,
      You, having become a fighter for the life of the East,
      Only you perform your feat!
      But still, having fallen in a stubborn struggle,
      The whole world is stained in vain.
      Remember, brave: no shame
      To fall from the hand of the hero.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 3 February 2021 02: 18
        +4
        Rosette, crying Did you read the article? So why is V in Ades for a vegetable garden, and in Kiev for an uncle?
        But seriously, you do not have enough space on the "political articles", it is so itchy that you climbed into the Russian-Japanese war with your Navalny. We got it already, "pike vests", homegrown. There is little room for you in your favorite trough.
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 2 February 2021 18: 32
      +8
      The question arises, who is to blame, according to the author?
      And without the guilty in any way?
      And if you approach from a non-classical position of looking for the guilty, but try to approach from the position of looking for reasons? So that it doesn't happen again? But, apparently, it is not interesting.
      1. Avior
        Avior 2 February 2021 18: 44
        +2
        Well, if there are no guilty ones, then the reasons. The explanation should be in the author's version.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 2 February 2021 18: 48
          +4
          The author seems to have made it clear that the reasons, in his opinion, lie in the field of military logistics.
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 2 February 2021 19: 16
            +3
            Stocks at Port Arthur were significant. And at first, communication with Dalny by railway was maintained. Food shortages (not yet hunger) began a few months later. And there was enough weapons and ammunition.
            1. icant007
              icant007 2 February 2021 20: 45
              -3
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              And at first, communication with Dalny by railway was maintained.

              With the Far - neighboring city of Dalian, or with the Far East? )
          2. Avior
            Avior 2 February 2021 19: 30
            +3
            The problems with logistics were clear even before Russia took the Liaodong Peninsula from the Japanese, they spoke about this in the General Staff unequivocally.
            Obviously, the strategy of expansion in the Far East was to be built taking into account the problems with logistics, and this is the business of specific people.
            And now the explanation looks like the reason for the defeats near Moscow or Stalingrad is a severe frost.
            hi
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 2 February 2021 19: 37
              +4
              Obviously, the strategy of expansion in the Far East was to be built taking into account the problems with logistics, and this is the business of specific people.
              And the reason that "specific people" were out of place? And not only in 1904 and not only in the General Staff? Maybe it's the system?
              1. Avior
                Avior 2 February 2021 19: 42
                +2
                I, in fact, asked this question, the author's opinion on this matter.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 2 February 2021 19: 49
                  +8
                  Most of the site authors do not dig so deeply and do not bother themselves lately. A heading and a little text, no matter what content - that's the whole article. It is also desirable that the topic in the long run should cause a holivar.
                  1. Comrade
                    Comrade 2 February 2021 20: 38
                    +4
                    Quote: Undecim
                    Most of the site authors do not dig so deeply and do not bother themselves lately. A heading and a little text, no matter what content - that's the whole article. It is also desirable that the topic in the long run should cause a holivar.

                    This state of affairs is a consequence of the deliberate policy of the site administration.
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 2 February 2021 20: 41
                      +2
                      Naturally, who determines the policy of the site, if not the administration. But this process did not start today.
                      1. Comrade
                        Comrade 2 February 2021 20: 58
                        +3
                        Quote: Undecim
                        this process did not start today.

                        Of course not.
                        The emergence of the discussed hack is only a natural result of previously launched processes.
                        The site needs money. With rare exceptions, the lower the intellectual level of the text, the more comments and "clicks", which means money.
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 2 February 2021 21: 00
                        +3
                        The site needs money.
                        He loved and suffered. He loved money and suffered from their lack
                      3. 27091965
                        27091965 2 February 2021 21: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Comrade
                        The emergence of the discussed hack is only a natural result of previously launched processes.


                        Sometimes interesting articles appear, but not often.
                  2. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 2 February 2021 21: 51
                    +3
                    I can not disagree.
                2. antivirus
                  antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 11
                  +2
                  A heading and a little text, no matter what content - that's the whole article.

                  - delusion - for intrigue and manifestation of civil consciousness. "it's hard to wake the people up." it is even more difficult to calm him down later.
            2. mat-vey
              mat-vey 2 February 2021 19: 48
              +3
              Quote: Undecim
              Maybe it's the system?

              So the "system" appointed generals ... and the generals themselves knew in which system they served ... and you can hardly become a general without deflection to the system.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 2 February 2021 19: 51
                +1
                But the system did not fall from the sky, someone was building it. Moreover, for a long time. And durable.
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 2 February 2021 19: 52
                  +2
                  Well, the same generals became generals and built it ..
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 2 February 2021 19: 56
                    +1
                    Generals do not create a system of government. Perhaps the junta on some issues.
                    1. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 2 February 2021 20: 03
                      +2
                      Well, if you dig, it is unlikely that tsarism appeared without the participation of the military ... Moreover, the generalship is the lot of the nobles, and this is the flesh of the flesh of the monarchy and its support.
                  2. antivirus
                    antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 15
                    +1
                    the experience of wars was - SrAsia - an expedition by battalion. and several armies are not.
                    THE MAIN THING IS THE BEZOBRAZOV CLIKA FOOD FROM CONCESSIONS and others wanted and brought down its influence on the sovereign father.
                    two groups fought at the throne - to surrender - to conquer Manchuria - Korea - a bargaining chip.

                    in the defeat of 1905 there were the winners. "influence groups" and banks.
                    1. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 3 February 2021 04: 24
                      0
                      Quote: antivirus
                      the experience of wars was - SrAsia - an expedition by battalion. and several armies are not.
                      THE MAIN THING IS THE BEZOBRAZOV CLIKA FOOD FROM CONCESSIONS and others wanted and brought down its influence on the sovereign father.
                      two groups fought at the throne - to surrender - to conquer Manchuria - Korea - a bargaining chip.

                      in the defeat of 1905 there were the winners. "influence groups" and banks.

                      To be honest, I didn't have a question to your answer, or rather, it was implied ..
            3. Alf
              Alf 2 February 2021 21: 02
              +3
              Quote: Undecim
              And the reason that "specific people" were out of place? And not only in 1904 and not only in the General Staff? Maybe it's the system?

              The phrase "The clever are not needed, the faithful are needed" for a hundred years has not lost its relevance.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 3 February 2021 04: 25
                +1
                Quote: Alf
                The phrase "The clever are not needed, the faithful are needed" for a hundred years has not lost its relevance.

                And it invariably leads to an anthological result.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 3 February 2021 19: 25
                  +3
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  anthological

                  Similar.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 4 February 2021 07: 52
                    0
                    Quote: Alf
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    anthological

                    Similar.

                    And this is not a typo. I have "auto-literacy" turned on ... there was no red underlining .. and by the way, this is not the first time after a few days the words in posts change.
                    1. Alf
                      Alf 4 February 2021 19: 47
                      +5
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      I have "auto literacy" enabled

                      And you turn it off, it will good
                    2. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 4 February 2021 19: 53
                      0
                      Quote: Alf
                      And you turn it off, it will

                      her ... nothing will happen ...
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 2 February 2021 20: 12
        +4
        Vic, good evening. hi

        The author still accuses the admirals:
        Personally, I blame the admirals for one thing - let's go. And it was necessary to resign and the newspaper scandal.


        But it is somehow very doubtful that TE admirals at that time were capable of such a demarche.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 2 February 2021 20: 23
          +2
          it is very doubtful that TE admirals at that time were capable of such a demarche
          That's right.
        2. Roman81
          2 February 2021 23: 31
          0
          Some refused. The same Danilevsky.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 2 February 2021 23: 38
            +2
            I don't know, can you tell?
            1. Roman81
              3 February 2021 10: 05
              0
              Quote: Sea Cat
              I don't know, can you tell?


              It was prophesied at 3TOE. Said sick and didn't go
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 3 February 2021 14: 14
            +1
            A heroic act, you will not say anything, but ...
            Read (only carefully) at least the "last parade" of Gribovsky.
            There is literally one line there (as always, when this testifies in favor of Rozhestvensky) that Zinovy ​​Petrovich demanded the release of those ships that are still in late March and early April. And essno himself volunteered to lead this campaign. But he was detained under various pretexts, and when the hike became meaningless (while staying in Madagascar) and ZPR tried to refuse ...
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 3 February 2021 23: 43
              0
              Good afternoon, Ivan!
              And why did Nikolai refuse Skrydlov when he asked for 2TOE?
              A very strange move in the conditions of "shortage" of combat admirals.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 5 February 2021 09: 39
                +1
                Nobody will tell you exactly, but ... Skrydlov had an advantage over ZPR in production time. It is inconvenient to appoint him as subordinates. Subordinate Rozhestvensky to him after all that he did to prepare ...
                In general, from the point of view of modern us with you - just nonsense, but then these were important circumstances.
                I think so.
  • unknown
    unknown 3 February 2021 20: 18
    -5
    Interesting. But, it is completely incomprehensible.
    Why build such a large and superbly equipped commercial port?
    With whom and what were you going to trade with?
    There were no "Asian tigers" at that time.
    Yes, and not everything is clear with China. No burials of representatives of the yellow race over 150 years old have been found on the territory of China. That is, "yellow" China has no history as such. Fake.
    And Japan doesn't. Islands - Kuril. The so-called "Japanese Islands" are the very "four southern islands of the Kuril ridge". The autochthonous population is the Ainu. White race.
    The real history of "yellow" Japan began in the middle of the nineteenth century. When, after the "Crimean War", the Dutch, British, French and Americans began to import Polynesians to the South Kuril Islands. How, in such a short period of time, did you manage to create a state, an "elite", any kind of industry, language?
  • paul3390
    paul3390 2 February 2021 18: 36
    +11
    Well, who else? The then guarantor. Who, having no shisha in the Far East, decided to dance for some horseradish on the sore calluses of the Japanese Empire. After all, it was obvious how she would react to our crawling into Korea. Now the question is - did this Korea surrender to us at feijoa? Is there a little earth, people, resources? But for Japan it was a matter of life or death .. So they got it.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 19
      0
      gossip on VO- "how dare you sell Alaska." so the realism in its head let down some strategists. it turned out -Aldr2 and his relatives were right - to cut off too much for the development of the European part and to the Urals. Poland was also busied. and the Turks sharpened the scimitars.
    2. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 20: 20
      +1
      Really a matter of life. Japan was just being created; it was not for nothing that the question of Seoul was considered as the capital of the "Japanese empire".
  • Roman81
    2 February 2021 23: 36
    0
    Logistics. Accordingly, the political goals set for the army and the navy. The screwdriver was driven into the dowel
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 3 February 2021 10: 29
    +3
    Quote: Avior
    The author out of the blue determined who was not to blame; he did not blame admirals and generals.
    The question arises, who is to blame, according to the author?
    He somehow missed this moment.

    Because to clarify this point, one would have to delve into such boring and abstruse things as economics and budget. smile
    For the roots of the same "armed reserve" RIF grow from them. And the nightmare formation of the land defense of Port Arthur, when the fort belt was squeezed to the maximum, so that the core of the fortress was partially in the zone of fire of the rifleman - too. And the clearly insufficient garrison of the fortress - too.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 2 February 2021 18: 28
    +10
    Well, yes, one thing is confusing. A single-track Transib, compared to the transfer of everything by the sea, to the nail, to a territory without infrastructure, and then all this is telepathic on hand? For whom was the logistics more pressing? Japanese! And the surrender of Dalniy in general with intact port facilities and a railway line straight to Arthur - what's this? This is not logistics, but the clinical idiocy of the "brilliant staff" Kuropatkin, by the way, he later showed in WWI how brilliant he is ... He showed exactly the same!
    Maybe the lack of artillery played on land. the inability to shoot from closed positions, the banal lack of shells and never built fortifications? even a banal camouflage - the Japanese have, by the way, like all of the above, the Republic of Ingushetia has nothing in sight .. Well, the main artillery chief prefers to deal with artillery affairs from Paris, has he ever seen a Russian battery live?
    1. saigon
      saigon 2 February 2021 19: 33
      -1
      And what did Dalny Kuropatkin surrender, and moreover personally? As for logistics, it should be borne in mind that Japan is close by, and we have all the pearls from the European part of the country. Yes, the Transib is powerful, even with one track, but is there anything else across Lake Baikal by the Pearl ferries? And the idiocy with mobilization is also the merit of Kuropatkin? It was, of course, he personally announced the call of the older ages at first, the Mosin rifle was only seen in Manzhuria.
      So, the logistics played a role in grief, as did the mental throwing of the Tsar's father (only to drive the macaques, or to fight with the German)
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 2 February 2021 21: 54
        +1
        Quote: saigon
        And what did Dalny Kuropatkin surrender, and moreover personally?

        In general, yes. By the orders given to them Stoessel.
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 3 February 2021 06: 07
          0
          And if you also take into account how many kilometers he got away from the Japanese .... The scale of the drape is impressive.
          If the Japanese even committed blitzkriegs ...
        2. saigon
          saigon 3 February 2021 09: 07
          +2
          I read Kuropatkin's memoirs, you know, I made an unambiguous conclusion for myself, in his place no one would have done anything to the beam.
          The situation of complete non-readiness for war in that theater of operations, weak combat capability of troops, disgusting logistics, a lot of reasons.
          So the tsarist government prepared the catastrophe all the same, and prepared it industriously.
          You certainly know the phrase better than me - I do not allow the Japanese to destroy our fleet.
          I was once struck at Shirokorad for 6 "fortress guns in the ammunition load included katech, for new 3" there were no shells at the beginning of the war except shrapnel, in nature did not exist.
          They did not enter the war; they plunged into a fight like a drunken man.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 3 February 2021 13: 45
            0
            Quote: saigon
            I read Kuropatkin's memoirs

            the militer has Druzhinin's memoirs http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/druzhinin_ki01/index.html
            I recommend it as a different view. He, of course, had a reason to take offense at Kuropatkin and this must be borne in mind, but still ...
          2. 27091965
            27091965 3 February 2021 13: 52
            0
            Quote: saigon
            Once it struck me at Shirokorad for 6 "fortress guns in the ammunition included katech


            There is nothing surprising in this, at that time three defense zones were defined for coastal artillery. This defense system was used all over the world. I am more surprised why Shirokorad did not write about this. Although this is written about in all publications, both ours and foreign of that time, devoted to coastal artillery.
      2. Cowbra
        Cowbra 4 February 2021 11: 11
        -2
        Quote: saigon
        And what did Dalny Kuropatkin surrender, and moreover personally?

        Position remind me of Kuropatkin? Strategic miscalculation is not a cant of Mishchenko or Fock ...
  • SaLaR
    SaLaR 2 February 2021 18: 28
    +2
    I wonder ... but now who is to blame .... that there is no fleet? recourse recourse
    1. Alf
      Alf 2 February 2021 21: 04
      +5
      Quote: SaLaR
      I wonder ... but now who is to blame .... that there is no fleet? recourse recourse

      Sanctions..
      1. SaLaR
        SaLaR 2 February 2021 21: 49
        +2

        Sanctions..

        Comedy magazine on another page .....
    2. paul3390
      paul3390 2 February 2021 21: 55
      +1
      And what do you think?
  • Comrade
    Comrade 2 February 2021 18: 33
    +15
    Poor "Military Review", to which the level of the site has fallen.
    There have never been such illiterate vysers on the topic of Russian-Japanese here.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 2 February 2021 21: 22
      0
      we will quickly move from quantity to quality .. not even three years will pass ..
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 2 February 2021 18: 41
    +5
    In Russia, a vile tradition of an unaccountable belief in the supposedly a priori wisdom of the political elite has formed. Even if it includes outright quibbles. For this reason, any word from across is perceived almost as a rebellion against the system. It is believed that they say there is an Emperor or His Serene Princes, who always know better a priori how to do it. And you couldn't argue with them.

    The October Revolution did not break this pernicious tradition. The members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union took the role of "the best of people" instead of the Serene Princes. In recent history, the political elite is also outside the scopes of real criticism, although there are just some - lawyers, businessmen, journalists and furniture makers. Rogues - a shaft.

    This is actually an extremely interesting tendency - the forms of government are replacing each other, but professionals in their field, who reached their posts thanks to career growth, do not contradict the representatives of the "political elite" who often ended up in their places by accident, that is, either due to origin, or on a wave of political expediency as after 1917, or as at the present time, by acquaintance and pull. Simply put, professionals do not contradict amateurs.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 2 February 2021 19: 56
      +6
      The October Revolution did not break this pernicious tradition.

      Well, I don’t know .. In fact, under the Soviet Union, in order to steer something technical, one had to have a specialized education. And even better - to climb the career ladder from the very bottom .. To put some kind of rogozin to steer the GlavKosmos - even in a terrible dream, no one would dream .. Or there is a lawyer - Sberbank. Well - and so on .. Generally - lawyers in power is some kind of attack on nonesh Russia .. Worse than them - only like economists ..
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 2 February 2021 23: 41
        +2
        In fact, under the Soviet Union, in order to steer something technical, one had to have a specialized education.


        I would say that in comparison with the Republic of Ingushetia and the Russian Federation, in the USSR, managerial personnel were the most effective. But they were effective as long as they were harshly asked how, for example, it was in the period from the 30s to the 50s. Subsequently, the party's monopoly on power, which no one could challenge, led to a number of erroneous decisions both in the economy and in foreign policy. And in the end, it was the degenerated party elite who first initiated the process of transition to a bourgeois society, and then launched the processes of the country's collapse, for the sake of privatizing public assets.
        So we can already confidently say that it is the political elite that bears direct responsibility for the destruction of both the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR. And it is the political elite that is the reason for the ineffective social and economic policy in the Russian Federation.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 3 February 2021 23: 02
          0
          Subsequently, the party's monopoly on power, which no one could challenge, led to a number of erroneous decisions both in the economy and in foreign policy.


          “The first, older generation of Bolsheviks was theoretically savvy. We studied Capital, took notes, argued, checked each other. This was our strength. It helped us a lot.
          The second generation is less prepared. People were busy with practical work, construction. Marxism was studied through brochures.
          The third generation is brought up on feuilleton and newspaper articles. They do not have deep knowledge. They need to be given food that is digestible. Most of them were brought up not on the study of the works of Marx and Lenin, but on citations.
          If things go on like this, then people may degenerate. In America, they argue: everything is decided by the dollar, why do we need theory, why do we need science? And here they can argue: why do we need "Capital" when we are building socialism. This threatens with degradation, this is death. "
    2. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 20: 23
      0
      Actually, "" means "for the fools." And the word "" is just the last child born. And nothing to do with the level of intelligence.
  • Pavel73
    Pavel73 2 February 2021 18: 42
    -3
    The main reason for Russia's defeat in this war is its attempt to behave in a Western way. That is, hypocritical. Forcing the Japanese to leave China in 1895 and taking their place.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 2 February 2021 18: 42
    +3
    soldier whether briefly, the author wrote enchanting nonsense and repeated all the clichés that came before him ... I would refer to the article by VIL bully
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 2 February 2021 18: 44
    +1
    what a chatter, in vladik there was no dock for battleships, and in Port-Arthur there was that a new chrolongist or a young goblin ...
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 4 February 2021 12: 43
      0
      Quote: Ryaruav
      what a chatter, there was no dock for battleships in vladik

      was! "In 1897, a dry dock was built, named after Tsarevich Nicholas, who was present at its foundation. With its commissioning, ship repairs of any complexity became possible for the shipyard. This dock still exists today and is known as' dry dock No. 3" "
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 2 February 2021 18: 46
    +3
    Sisoy was 12 years old. It is akin to Petropavlovsk, Poltava and Sevastopol - do you have any claims against them? Mikaza is generally a barbet battleship. What's wrong with the same Peresvets? Apparently "logistics". Well, there were no specialists in "Logist1C" then.
    1. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 20: 29
      0
      The Fuji-class battleships are similar to the Petropavlovsk-class battleships. They have no advantages over them, even in speed. Real long-term -15 knots. Three battleships carried Harvey armor. "Mikasa" with a standard displacement of 15120 tons had a construction overload of 900 tons.
      Battleships of the "Borodino" type with a standard displacement of 14200 tons had a construction overload of 635 tons. The overload of the Japanese, in percentage terms, is higher.
      "Armored cruisers" could neither get away from modern battleships, nor fight them on equal terms.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 4 February 2021 05: 08
        0
        The light forces won and lost the war at sea, which were actively supported by the battleships (Japanese) and, on the contrary, abandoned by ours. If so, purely "hypothetically", to assume the presence of the "Novikov" EM, even several pieces, even without battleships?
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 2 February 2021 18: 52
    +3
    Well, tsarist generals are never to blame, but if there were an article about the Soviet Union, then the guilty would be quickly found.
  • Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 2 February 2021 18: 59
    +14
    It is famously written. Dear author, at the time of the RYA, there were no battleships in the domestic fleet, there were squadron battleships. Do you not like the phrase "Pacific Squadron"? So these are your problems. And the fleet was. I don’t know how you counted 2 battleships in the 8nd Pacific Squadron, there were only seven of them. I don’t know why Pearl and Emerald did not please you, the ships were beautiful, their predecessor Novik showed himself perfectly in Port Arthur.
    “Without entering ports, without repair facilities, without fired upon crews” - it is perfectly said, but where could all this be found in the existing reality on our home globe? Or was it not necessary to send reinforcements to the belligerent 1st squadron in principle? How can they get out by themselves?
    As for the Transsib, it fully coped with its task, but it was only necessary to start pumping up the Far East with troops, equipment and ammunition earlier.
    And now, finally, and the most important thing! “Personally, I blame the admirals for one thing - let's go. And it was necessary to resign and a newspaper scandal "- did you serve in the army as a citizen? You know what an order is? That is, while peacetime, you can receive money and benefits from the state, but how
    fried smell - resign. At the very least, this is called cowardice.
    “And people would not have died, and the ships would have come in handy” - do you know why the army exists in the state? I will reveal a little secret - for war and only for war. And if you take care of the boats ... there are examples in history, though sad.
    Yes, the RYAV war was shameful and unnecessary for RI. This war was provoked by irresponsible domestic politicians, and ordinary soldiers and officers died. Yes, the army and navy were not ready for war. But this is not a reason for the army and navy to refuse to do their duty.
    1. Roman81
      2 February 2021 20: 19
      0
      The fleet is not karapliks, it is bases, repair facilities, logistics, crews and other boring things. For some reason, we think differently, so the boxes are reset to zero regularly
      1. cniza
        cniza 2 February 2021 20: 41
        +4
        You mean not only ships ...
      2. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 2 February 2021 21: 08
        +1
        I agree completely, but only there is no logistics in the fleet, there is a rear service.
    2. icant007
      icant007 2 February 2021 20: 56
      -2
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      I don’t know how you counted 2 battleships in the 8nd Pacific Squadron, there were only seven of them.


      For the sake of justice, we must take into account the 3rd Pacific. "Emperor Nicholas I" and three coastal defense battleships.
      Some sources, such as Novikov-Priboy's Tsushima, include Admiral Nakhimov in the battleships section.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 2 February 2021 21: 06
        +1
        The presence of Nakhimov in the 2nd armored detachment does not make him an armadillo.
        1. icant007
          icant007 2 February 2021 21: 08
          -1
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          The presence of Nakhimov in the 2nd armored detachment does not make him an armadillo in any way


          I'm just explaining where it came from 8)
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 2 February 2021 21: 11
            +3
            I understood this even from the text of the article. The author, in my opinion, writes very famously, but does not know the topic. drinks
            1. icant007
              icant007 2 February 2021 21: 24
              -2
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              I understood this even from the text of the article. The author, in my opinion, writes very famously, but does not know the topic.



              Oh, and I just read the current. ))) First, it just went diagonally)
        2. unknown
          unknown 3 February 2021 20: 31
          0
          As well as the real characteristics of the Japanese "armored cruisers" they do not make them either cruisers (the speed is low) or ships of the line (the weapons are insufficient).
      2. Roman81
        2 February 2021 23: 29
        0
        8 battleships. It was not me who put Nakhimov in the line.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 3 February 2021 00: 01
          +2
          A destroyer / cruiser / aircraft carrier (it doesn't matter) placed in the wake of battleships does not become a battleship from this.
    3. Alf
      Alf 2 February 2021 21: 06
      +1
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      at the time of the RYAV, there were no battleships in the domestic fleet, there were squadron battleships

      Then there was the concept of "ships of the line".
      I don’t know why Pearl and Emerald did not please you, the ships were beautiful, their predecessor Novik showed himself perfectly in Port Arthur.

      The ships are excellent, but they cannot be used in a squadron battle.
      But it was only necessary to start pumping up the Far East with troops, equipment and ammunition earlier.

      Opinion then dominated at the top, we will cast aside hats.

      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 2 February 2021 21: 13
        +1
        According to the official classification of warships in the RIF at the time of the RYA, there were battleships.
      2. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 3 February 2021 00: 07
        0
        "Then there was the concept of" ships of the line "" - open any VKAM directory of that time and take a look. wink
        “The ships are excellent, but they cannot be used in a squadron battle” - but what does this passage have to do with it? belay
        "Opinion then dominated at the top, we will cast aside hats" - but I completely agree with this.
        By the way, I am now reading Witte's memoirs, he very well describes the reasons for the war and the "preparation" for it. Recommend.
        1. Alf
          Alf 3 February 2021 18: 53
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          “The ships are excellent, but they cannot be used in a squadron battle” - but what does this passage have to do with it?

          Your words-
          I don’t know why Pearl and Emerald did not please you, the ships were beautiful, their predecessor Novik showed himself perfectly in Port Arthur.
          ?
          Could they have been used at Tsushima or Breakthrough? Absolutely not. Although as scouts or leaders, the ships are fine.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 3 February 2021 21: 15
            0
            "Could they have been used at Tsushima or Breakthrough?" And what about repelling the attacks of Japanese destroyers? How about rehearsing signals? And what about intelligence? The inability to use them does not detract from their merits.
            1. Alf
              Alf 3 February 2021 21: 19
              +2
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              And what about repelling attacks from Japanese destroyers?

              And under Tsushima, these attacks were? If only night when finishing off the squadron. And what could one Stone do at night?
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              How about rehearsing signals?

              And be in the ranks of the leading squadron? How long will he hold out there?
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              And what about intelligence?

              This is closer to the topic, but that's what I was talking about.
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 4 February 2021 08: 53
                0
                "And under Tsushima these attacks were?" - You yourself answered about the night attacks. But the 2nd squadron was not for one battle, the task was first to strengthen the first, and then try to seize the initiative at sea, and that was not a single battle.
                “To be in the ranks of the squadron leading the battle” - to be in the ranks of the squadron for this purpose is meaningless. You need to be on the opposite side from the enemy at some distance.
    4. Roman81
      2 February 2021 23: 30
      0
      Zinovy ​​who wrote about ships of the line is better known in this matter. He then went into battle with these ships
  • Flooding
    Flooding 2 February 2021 19: 11
    -1
    Burning Port Arthur
  • Flooding
    Flooding 2 February 2021 19: 17
    -1
    As I understood on the left, the cruiser "Pallada" after being hit by a Japanese torpedo
  • Flooding
    Flooding 2 February 2021 19: 21
    -1
    Japanese ship thrown on rocks near Golden Mountain, Port Arthur

    Stereo image
  • zenion
    zenion 2 February 2021 20: 09
    +1
    Hats, hats forgot to distribute so that they would throw the Japanese.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 2 February 2021 20: 17
    +1
    A return to the past - the rotten tsarist government and the tsar himself are to blame for everything. Not without it, of course, and not without it. Underestimating the enemy and overestimating one's own forces. Everything as usual. As Chernomyrdin used to say - they wanted the best, it turned out as always.
    In general, Russia has no luck with the rulers. Such a chronic bad luck. However, they say that the people are worthy of their rulers. It is high time to understand that the king, monarchy, dictatorship are ineffective. But no - Russia has a special path, be it wrong. Now some bloodsuckers, then others. Sawmakers, that is.
    1. Ham
      Ham 2 February 2021 20: 52
      0
      ... It is high time to understand that the king, monarchy, dictatorship are ineffective

      please, give an example of when another form of government in Russia was more "effective"?
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 2 February 2021 20: 54
        +1
        Quote: Ham
        please, give an example of when another form of government in Russia was more "effective"?

        Please, give an example when there was another form of government in Russia.
        1. Ham
          Ham 3 February 2021 12: 02
          0
          and the ussr ?? not kosher? or is there a continuous "dictatorship" and "totalitarianism"?
          what about today's Russia? also does not channel? no matter how cool Putin was chosen by the people and our elections are more honest and more transparent than we admit in the USA
    2. Alf
      Alf 2 February 2021 21: 11
      +2
      Quote: sevtrash
      It is high time to understand that the king, monarchy, dictatorship are ineffective.

      And which one is effective?
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 2 February 2021 21: 15
        0
        Quote: Alf
        And which one is effective?

        Maybe the one in which the country is among the leaders in terms of GDP, PPP, PPI?
        1. Alf
          Alf 2 February 2021 21: 24
          +1
          Quote: sevtrash
          Quote: Alf
          And which one is effective?

          Maybe the one in which the country is among the leaders in terms of GDP, PPP, PPI?

          Can you name it?
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 2 February 2021 23: 32
            -4
            Quote: Alf
            Can you name it?

            ... Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ..
            ... the definition of democracy is usually narrowed down to one of the following:
            1 Appointment of leaders by the people they govern takes place through fair and competitive elections.
            2 The people are the only legitimate source of power
            3 The society exercises self-government for the common good and the satisfaction of common interests
            1. Ham
              Ham 3 February 2021 11: 59
              +2
              name the country where this utopia was implemented in practice? I mean a normal country and not some dwarf Switzerland-Austria ...
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 3 February 2021 16: 42
                0
                Quote: Ham
                name the country where this utopia was implemented in practice? I mean a normal country and not some dwarf Switzerland-Austria ...

                Norway, Sweden, Finland, France, Denmark, Germany, etc. and yes and yes - Switzerland, Austria. Normal countries, an excellent standard of living, officials can steal / file some of them, but not with billions and not with palaces.
                1. unknown
                  unknown 3 February 2021 20: 36
                  0
                  Because in these countries, power belongs not to officials, but to representatives of the first estate. And someone says that in Europe the time of feudalism is long gone.
                  1. sevtrash
                    sevtrash 3 February 2021 23: 58
                    0
                    Quote: ignoto
                    Because in these countries, power belongs not to officials, but to representatives of the first estate. And someone says that in Europe the time of feudalism is long gone.

                    Did they take the French class classification? So, does the clergy hold power there? For the first time I hear what news, however.
              2. unknown
                unknown 3 February 2021 20: 35
                0
                Real democracy, that is, the rule of the people, is possible only in a society in which the number of voters coincides with the number of candidates. This is an even greater utopia than communism.
                1. sevtrash
                  sevtrash 4 February 2021 00: 02
                  0
                  Quote: ignoto
                  Real democracy, that is, the rule of the people, is possible only in a society in which the number of voters coincides with the number of candidates. This is an even greater utopia than communism.

                  Read, first, the definition of democracy
  • cniza
    cniza 2 February 2021 20: 40
    +1
    Personally, I blame the admirals for one thing - let's go. And it was necessary to resign and the newspaper scandal. And people would not have died, and the ships were useful, and the fleet would be repaired.


    Cool, but there is something in this ...
  • Alf
    Alf 2 February 2021 20: 44
    +3
    "Smart commanders don't think about strategy, but about logistics."

    "Before you fight, learn to supply" -Napoleon. True, he did it, too.
    A "Aurora" with insufficient (for a cruiser) speed.

    With EIGHT six-inches and as many as 24 (!) Three-inches ... But with a displacement like Oleg, Askold, Varyag, Bogatyr ..
    It was not for nothing that Skrydlov asked to send Ermak with the Second Squadron.

    It's good that he didn't beg, otherwise they would have remained without Ermak ...
    1. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 20: 40
      -1
      The speed of the Aurora is greater than the real speed of the so-called "armored cruisers".
      An onboard salvo - five six-inch guns. Varyag has six. "Askold" in the Yellow Sea also has six.
      It is not a fact that the speed of Japanese small cruisers in waves is higher than that of the Aurora. Armament is weaker, combat stability is less.
      1. Alf
        Alf 3 February 2021 20: 46
        +2
        Quote: ignoto
        so-called "armored cruisers".

        Which ones?
        Quote: ignoto
        "Askold" in the Yellow Sea also has six.

        Oleg, Bogatyr - 8 barrels on board.
  • Ham
    Ham 2 February 2021 20: 48
    +1
    "Kuropatkin's plan" is an anecdote ...
    he already had more troops and guns, but here's one problem - Kuropatkin was a "parquet general", absolutely incompetent and weak-willed ...
    The Yapas, I must say, did not shine with talents, but against the background of absolute mediocrity from the tsarist army and navy, they looked like titans of military thought ...
    Kuropatkin was also the Minister of War before the war! a man who lived with the dogmas of the Napoleonic wars was a minister of war at the beginning of the 20th century !!! this is a full paragraph with a logical conclusion
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 2 February 2021 22: 00
      +1
      Quote: Ham
      Kuropatkin was a "parquet general"

      In fact, Kuropatkin was quite a fighting general.
      In the commanders, however, did not fit.
      1. Ham
        Ham 3 February 2021 11: 42
        0
        do you mean that he was the chief of staff for Skobelev?
        Well, Rozhdestvensky was also quite a combat officer ...
        but as independent commanders they were absolutely mediocre and inert! and they became ministers and commanders solely thanks to the palace intrigues and the king's sympathy for them ...
        The tsar did not even put his favorite Kuropatkin on trial as Rozhdestvenian, although the whole society demanded it!
        and his appointment as a front commander during WWII caused a real explosion of indignation in the country
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 February 2021 13: 11
          +1
          Quote: Ham
          do you mean that he was the chief of staff for Skobelev?

          I mean, he made his career on the battlefield, not in palaces on parquet floors. Just recount the campaigns he has done.
          And the fact that he was the chief of staff of the 16th division is only a brief, albeit rather bright episode in his biography.
          Quote: Ham
          and they became ministers and commanders solely thanks to the palace intrigues and the king's sympathy for them ...

          God, what a nafig "palace intrigues"? ... Kuropatkin from the seedy nobles, the Christmas son of a doctor.
          1. Ham
            Ham 3 February 2021 16: 39
            0
            do you think that a "seedy nobleman" or "doctor's son" cannot be schemers?
            the fact that the tsar did not fire Kuropatkin from the service even after yelling says a lot! he should have been tried by a tribunal and instead he was appointed a member of the state council
            and Rozhdestvensky's career is a masterpiece in itself ... only one episode with an article about the battle of "Vesta" is the intrigue of the highest flight
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 3 February 2021 18: 41
              +1
              Quote: Ham
              do you think that a "seedy nobleman" or "doctor's son" cannot be schemers?

              It's just that I'm a little aware of their track record. And when they became adjutants general, in order to have at least some weight at court.
              Quote: Ham
              The tsar, even after yelling, did not dismiss Kuropatkin from the service says a lot!

              I wonder what :)) well, except that Alexei Nikolaevich was not a bad military administrator and Nikolai knew it.
              Quote: Ham
              he should have been tried by a tribunal

              Why on earth? Do not confuse the era, but rather find out why then a military man could get on trial.
              Quote: Ham
              Rozhdestvensky's career is a masterpiece in itself

              I agree. A very extraordinary person, a good artilleryman, came out not so much from the bottom, but never an aristocrat.
              Only it does not make him a courtier.
              1. Ham
                Ham 3 February 2021 20: 03
                0
                Only it does not make him a courtier.

                so why would he suddenly become one?) adjutant general is a court rank;)
                "track record" is just this: tsushima and mukden!
                well, except that Alexei Nikolaevich was not a bad military administrator, and Nikolai knew it.

                "not a bad military administrator" in which the logistics went to pieces and who completely overwhelmed the concentration and deployment of troops, this is something ... such a royal mechlis)))
                all the time you insist that they are "from the bottom" - forgetting the definition of "favorite" and discarding the fact that they simply could be the protégé of certain palace groups ...
                Admiral Makarov was also from the bottom, if anything ... and Potemkin ... and Orlovs ... and Alexander Menshikov ...
                if they forgot in the history of russia there was another Menshikov - the favorite of the incompetent emperor nicholas 1 ... well, the same commander-in-chief with whom russia blew through the Crimean campaign with a bang;)
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 3 February 2021 20: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: Ham
                  adjutant general is a court rank;)

                  Hand face! Don't you read at all, what are you answering?
                  I wrote:
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  It's just that I'm a little aware of their track record. And when they became adjutants general, in order to have at least some weight at court.

                  so, Kuropatkin became adjutant general in 1902, i.e. four years after being appointed minister. Rozhestvensky, too, much after the appointment of the head of the General Medical School as correcting duties, already during the campaign of the second squadron. Isn't it somehow strange? Usually they first become courtiers, and then by intrigues they knock out a position for themselves, and then somehow the other way around ...
                  Quote: Ham
                  Admiral Makarov was also from the bottom, if that

                  From your point of view, is he also a court shaker and an intriguer? :)))
                  Quote: Ham
                  if they forgot in the history of russia there was another Menshikov - the favorite of the incompetent emperor nicholas 1 ... well, the same commander-in-chief with whom russia blew through the Crimean campaign with a bang;)

                  If you wouldn’t remind me of something with such knowledge of the materiel ... MenshIkov, just the same titled aristocrat, courtier (adjutant wing) from 1811.
                  Quote: Ham
                  you always insist that they are "from the bottom"

                  I insist all the time that you need to know what you are writing about, and not engage in inventions.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 2 February 2021 21: 19
    +1
    The entire Russo-Japanese war is the result of someone's business being put at the head of the policy of the whole Russian Empire.
    I think there were then heads, even the same Kuropatkin, who understood everything correctly, but the "vertical" said "must!" - The main headquarters answered - "Yes!"
    Moreover, the regime needed a "victorious little one", and some distant little slanting yellow men from the islands did not seem to be serious opponents, and caused slight contempt at the Court.
    Nevertheless, the ground forces were able to inflict very impressive losses on the Japanese; Japan was sorely lacking resources to continue the war ...
    But here, it is still the first Russian revolution, plus the monstrous unpopularity of the war among the people, it’s not for you to free the "Bulgarian brothers" from the bastards, probably even an educated university professor could not clearly explain why we are there and for whom ...
    So we paid for the disgusting foreign and domestic policy, but those were still flowers - there were still 1914 and 1917 ahead - the apotheosis of our alliance with the Entente (did we really need it?)
    1. Alf
      Alf 2 February 2021 21: 46
      +4
      Quote: faterdom
      (did we really need it?)

      Now Olgovich will come running and explain clearly that it was very necessary, and in the 18th year the Republic of Ingushetia would have received everything it wanted, would have become the first power in the world, but the Bolsheviks' oaths ruined everything again.
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 2 February 2021 22: 11
      0
      Well, yes, it was necessary to voluntarily become the German colonies and not show off.
      1. unknown
        unknown 3 February 2021 20: 43
        -1
        There is also such a version. The Russian "elite" of that time was German. St. Petersburg is a German city. Not a colony, but part of the "German Empire". East Prussia. Not for nothing, Suvorov is so indistinguishable from the Prussian Frederick.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 3 February 2021 22: 18
          0
          And we all take pictures, Jade Turtle.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 2 February 2021 22: 09
    +1
    Such a crappy article and a hundred comments
  • faterdom
    faterdom 2 February 2021 22: 21
    0
    Quote: Cartalon
    Well, yes, it was necessary to voluntarily become the German colonies and not show off.

    Apparently I am a very ignorant person ...
    Tell me, when and where at the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century we were offered or conditions were created for us to become a German colony?
    At the same time, with Great Britain, we had hard grains almost everywhere, from the Bosphorus and Central Asia to the Japan mentioned in the article - it was Britain that helped with money and ships, but our squadron of Rozhestvensky arranged provocations, and I think it spied in favor of the Japanese. But here we are suddenly allies, and we are suffering the greatest losses, we are saving France, and as a result we get a revolution, supported by the British, and the money they (until now) have clamped down on the supply of weapons for the Russian Empire.
    Here Alexander III correctly defined who our allies are, and as a result, we did not wage any wars under him, especially for other people's interests.
  • Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 2 February 2021 23: 01
    -1
    One-sided scribbling !!! Yes, disputes on this topic have been going on for a very long time, but! Read Port Arthur and Tsushima, if you have enough brains - you will see and understand everything there and the answers will be to all questions !!! You need to be able to read not literally, but between the lines!
    1. Roman81
      2 February 2021 23: 26
      0
      two opportunistic ART works. Literature on our fleet written by historians - sea
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 3 February 2021 14: 17
        +1
        Quote: Roman81
        Literature on our fleet written by historians - sea

        And what prevented you from getting to know them? :))))
  • clerk
    clerk 2 February 2021 23: 29
    0
    The author wrote nonsense .. The plan for the war at the Witgeft Sea was good and worked fine. And there were no problems with logistics - there were enough soldiers, coal, food and ammunition. And the plan of the administrator and staff officer Kuropatkin was normal. But the incompetent strategist and commander Kuropatkin himself failed him, sacrificing the main naval base Port Arthur as a sacrifice to the momentary interests of the army in Manchuria. If the beginning of the close blockade of Arthur had been delayed by at least six months, then the 2nd squadron would have come to Arthur and Japanese communications could have been cut. After that, the Japanese would not have fought for a long time.
    1. Black lotos
      Black lotos 3 February 2021 00: 03
      0
      Quote: clerk
      The Witgeft Sea War plan was good and worked fine

      it is difficult to understand the plan of the native of Odessa, when he allowed the landing.
      Maybe he managed to screw up the least and died on the bridge (both admirals were on the bridges of their flagships). Apart from his guilt in the initial losses.
      although plans for him just right to write. He wrote works well. And he was awarded three foreign awards
      One of them is the Order of the Rising Sun, 2nd degree (Japan). He has two awards for boxers from Japan and Prussia.
      And yet he is the most successful admiral of the Russian fleet from Nakhimov! Under him, 2 Japanese battleships were drowned on mines. About what he just wrote. He also wanted submarines with mine weapons.
      You can all complain about the death of Makarov, but having the combat path of Kondratenko, one can understand that it was difficult even for gifted people with such an empire to throw hats over a stubborn and organized enemy.
      The Japanese won deservedly. They were to play the role of a teacher, like German is to France.
      No other way. It’s bad that the people paid for such lessons ... But the system remained, but had to be completely reformed back in 1905.
      1. clerk
        clerk 3 February 2021 08: 28
        +1
        It is difficult to understand a person who evaluates the plan without even knowing what it was (to make the Japanese pull back forces from Port Arthur to counter the cruisers in Vladik). And he assesses the action / inaction of the naval commander without even knowing what forces he actually had (at the time of the same landing of the Japanese landing, only 3 battleships remained in the ranks (including one lame and without a quarter of the main caliber artillery) out of 7 available at the beginning of the war). And he blames him for the initial losses, not even realizing that the military make decisions based on the decisions of the political power, and not vice versa (Petersburg assured the Viceroy that there would be no war). And the fact that after Nakhimov he is indeed the most productive Russian (including Soviet) admiral is true. And if not for his death (sick and wounded) in a battle at a combat post, coupled with the cowardice of Schensnovich and Essen, who draped back to Arthur), it is not known how the breakthrough would have ended. The man was literate, brave, stubborn and executive to the extreme, and evil tongues say that if the Viceroy and the Tsar in the summer of 1904 had ordered him not to break through to Vladik, but to destroy the Japanese fleet, then it is not known how everything would turn out in that war. Unfortunately, he did not have any charisma at all, and we judge him by the memories of the ill-wishers who survived him, and not by real deeds.
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    2. Roman81
      3 February 2021 09: 56
      +1
      Quote: clerk
      The author wrote nonsense .. The plan for the war at the Witgeft Sea was good and worked fine. And there were no problems with logistics - there were enough soldiers, coal, food and ammunition


      Who has had enough? The second squadron carried with it, 1 TOE and could not use even one ammo. Cupid stood at a standstill, the mines ENDED
      1. clerk
        clerk 3 February 2021 10: 04
        0
        This is what we are talking about - both the 1st squadron and the 2nd squadron had enough ammunition. Mines played their role and after the death of 2 Japanese EBRDs and the landing of the Japanese, there was no sense in them. The main problem was not with logistics, but with the basing of the fleet. Due to the fault of Kuropatkin, Port Arthur as a naval base became unusable by the summer of 1904 and the 2nd squadron simply had nowhere to go. Vladik was too far from the main transport communications of the Japanese and the Russian fleet, by and large, had nothing to do but defend Sakhalin.
    3. Alf
      Alf 3 February 2021 19: 02
      +2
      Quote: clerk
      If the beginning of the close blockade of Arthur had been delayed by at least six months, then the 2nd squadron would have come to Arthur and

      True, if the 2nd squadron had left half a year earlier ... The Japanese decided to go to war with RI just like that, from the bay ... Where they looked at SP-B ...
      Quote: clerk
      and Japanese communications could be cut.

      But if in Arthur there was still a normal admiral instead of what was available ...
      1. clerk
        clerk 3 February 2021 21: 54
        -1
        1) If the siege of Arthur had begun six months later, and 2TOE had been released a couple of months earlier (without the "Eagle"), then by the beginning of 1905 there would have been 10-11 battleships in Arthur and the Japanese would have had nothing. 2) Stark and Witgeft were the most normal. The rest simply did not grow up to command a squadron.
        1. Alf
          Alf 3 February 2021 21: 56
          +2
          Quote: clerk
          Stark and Witgeft were the most normal.

          And where are their victories?
          1. clerk
            clerk 4 February 2021 05: 39
            0
            On account of the command of Vitefta one third of the Japanese line forces. And I ask you not to drive a blizzard, that it is like in spite of him. And Stark simply did not have time to prove himself, although in the first day's battle he behaved normally.
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  • rytik32
    rytik32 2 February 2021 23: 55
    +1
    By the way, about Kuropatkin's plan:
    1. The struggle of the fleets for supremacy at sea.
    2. Japanese landing and opposition.
    3. Defensive actions with the widespread development of partisan actions until sufficient forces are gathered.
    4. Going to the offensive:
    a) ousting the Japanese from Manchuria,
    b) ousting the Japanese from Korea.
    5. Landing in Japan. Defeat of Japanese territorial troops. Fight against popular uprising

    https://runivers.ru/bookreader/book450270/#page/290/mode/1up
    1. clerk
      clerk 3 February 2021 08: 33
      0
      Unfortunately, the incompetent strategist and commander Kuropatkin did not understand that the fleet is not only ships and people, but also suitable bases. Therefore, with his orders, he actually pulled the Japanese forces to Port Arthur, which led to a close blockade with shelling of ships in the harbor, which greatly impeded the actions of the fleet.
      1. Alf
        Alf 3 February 2021 19: 10
        +2
        Quote: clerk
        talentless strategist and commander Kuropatkin

        But
        And the plan of the administrator and staff officer Kuropatkin was normal.

        Again
        talentless strategist and commander Kuropatkin

        You either take off the cross or put on your panties. And then here and "talentless", right there and "normal" .. As it does not fit. Can a talentless strategist create a sane plan?
        1. clerk
          clerk 3 February 2021 21: 46
          +1
          It may well. Plans are made not by strategists, but by competent staff officers. This was Kuropatkin's plan. But Kuopatkin's strategic mediocrity was manifested in the fact that he casually (!!!) exchanged the strategic value of the fleet for additional bonuses for the army. Which he also could not talentlessly realize. In principle, the war was lost in the spring of 1904 after the surrender of Kinzhou, but the agony continued for almost 1,5 years.
    2. icant007
      icant007 3 February 2021 12: 04
      -1
      Quote: rytik32
      By the way, about Kuropatkin's plan:
      1. The struggle of the fleets for supremacy at sea.
      2. Japanese landing and opposition.
      3. Defensive actions with the widespread development of partisan actions until sufficient forces are gathered.
      4. Going to the offensive:
      a) ousting the Japanese from Manchuria,
      b) ousting the Japanese from Korea.
      5. Landing in Japan. Defeat of Japanese territorial troops. Fight against popular uprising


      Yes, we are always ready to make plans. Only plans should be executable.
      And not be in the nature of a project note.
      Landing in Japan - yes, we didn't really have local maps.
      1. Alf
        Alf 3 February 2021 19: 12
        +3
        Quote: icant007
        Landing in Japan - yes, we didn't really have local maps.

        Yes, and there were amphibious means ... There was no place to put it ...
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 3 February 2021 08: 13
    +1
    brilliant staff officer Kuropatkin


    How he showed himself in WWI later, there are simply no words, only emotions.

    I blame the admirals for one thing - let's go. And it was necessary to resign and a newspaper scandal


    This is how the army does not work. In no country in the world. Having received an order, the military carry out it, even if they have a special opinion about it obscenely.
    1. clerk
      clerk 3 February 2021 08: 52
      0
      As an army staff officer and peacetime commander, Kuropatkin was really quite good. And the receptionist was talented. But as a strategist and commander, he turned out to be extremely talentless. And in the RYAV and PMV.
    2. Roman81
      3 February 2021 09: 53
      0
      So we finished. The right to resign was then. By the way, after the battle of Vesta, Zinovy ​​himself turned to the media
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 11: 15
    -3
    in general, respected Roman Ivanov is right, moreover, all these problems still exist in the navy, and to a greater extent than then. but there was a way out. First, to collect the available forces into a fist, and not distribute over three points (even Chemulpo). Similarly, today they smeared the ships on the admiral's feeders for 5 fleets, it turns out that there are ships, but they are not capable of anything anywhere, even in the Northern Fleet, according to the number of ships in the Northern Fleet (the main fleet and the protection of the nuclear submarine approached the Black Sea Fleet). It is clear that all ships need to be collected in a fist on the Northern Fleet and have them in P-K, and in the rest of the waters only a little of the third rank. In the RY it was necessary to collect everything in Vladivostok, it would be a fleet. The second is logistics, but there was coal on Sakhalin, it was only necessary to extract and load it. The second problem is the nomenclature of ships. Why they were different and outdated, but because it is a cut, to design more, all sorts of R&D are useless. But not only and not so much .... the main problem is the size! That is why battleships are outdated, they are big and expensive, and therefore they are few and it is a pity to throw away, and obsolete old men accumulate in the fleet. Meanwhile, Esmeralda had already been invented and the wise Makarov called her an ideal ship. This is a large gunboat or small armored cruiser with a single turret of large caliber guns. If, instead of battleships and battleships with large cruisers, we could build gunboats with one 305x40 turret in a large series (and they are at least twice as effective as an battleship because they shoot all the guns at the same time, not half), and dozens of destroyers and small gunboats of medium caliber (Korean) to destroy destroyers and enemy transports., Then the first squadron would cut off the communications of the Japanese, and would win in Tsushima and the outcome of the war would be different.
    1. clerk
      clerk 3 February 2021 13: 21
      +2
      Yeah. From Vladivostok, they would cut off Japanese communications in the Yellow Sea ..... Immediately go to school and teach geography! Of course, if you are already 12 years old. It makes sense to discuss the rest of your ideas when you are at least 16 years old.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 15: 52
        -1
        Quote: clerk
        From Vladivostok, they would have cut Japanese communications in the Yellow Sea.

        it is quite possible if you control the water area, ... well, of course, is it better for you to be in the port all the time?
        1. clerk
          clerk 3 February 2021 16: 17
          0
          Of course, it is better to be in the port a few hours from the Japanese unloading point than to "control the water area" 60 hours from your base and the same to the Japanese unloading point, but in the other direction. Critics of Witgeft and other Russian sailors simply do not understand how convenient (for opposing the Japanese) Port Arthur was and just as useless Vladivostok. A weak analogy - Sevastopol - Tartus (from the point of view of control of the Black Sea).
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 16: 33
            -2
            Quote: clerk
            analogy - Sevastopol - Tartus (from the point of view of control of the Black Sea).

            that's the nonsense you wrote! , tartus is generally not suitable for controlling anything in the Black Sea, and it is impossible to supply it to the Bosphorus either and it is small, because not everything is decided by distances. this is not any control of the Bosphorus, but an MTO base for the Syrian operation. From this logic, Vladik would better control the transportation of the Japanese than Port Arthur, because it had warehouses and repair bases, the Fleet is not a spherical horse in a vacuum, it needs repair supplies, and the Sea of ​​Japan is not so long even by the standards of the early 20th century, and the Black today it is generally a puddle. And who prevented the Japanese from transporting everything not through the yellow sea, but through the Japanese? one way or another, my idea is that you need to fight without spreading the fleet over ports, but creating a strike fist to control the water area, this is what Kutuzov said and did. And where in the Republic of Ya. To make a fist, the admirals of that time had to decide. Although due to the lack of destroyers and gunboats, "no matter how you get into naval commanders, you are not good enough," everything was predetermined by the vicious crew
            1. clerk
              clerk 3 February 2021 16: 44
              0
              <<<< And who prevented the Japanese from transporting everything not through the yellow sea, but through the Japanese? one way or another, my idea is that you need to fight without spreading the fleet over ports, but creating a shock fist to control the water area, this is what Kutuzov said and did >>>>. --- At first I decided that you are a kid who started to study the topic, but still does not know geography, but now I see that you are just a fabulous chisel.
          2. rytik32
            rytik32 4 February 2021 00: 04
            +1
            Port Arthur was conveniently located and did not freeze. But he had many other problems:
            1. Small internal raid. The ships available in fact could hardly fit.
            2. Shallow fairway. You can only go out at high tide.
            3. The dock is not completed.
            4. Fortifications on the land side are not completed.
            With the balance of forces at the beginning of the war, it was not correct to deploy the main forces in the PA. There were no forces sufficient to defend either from land or sea.
            It was necessary either to have a grouping of 200-300 thousand for cover from land, including communications to Liaoyang - which is unrealistic.
            Or at least a fleet equal in strength to prevent the Japanese landing north of Chemulpo. But here it was already possible to have "Alexandra 3", "Oslyabya" and "Aurora" on the Far East by the beginning of the war.
            1. clerk
              clerk 4 February 2021 05: 53
              +1
              And also "Donskoy" 'and "Nicholas I". But the obstinacy of the ZPR prevented this. And this is his main fault, and not in Tsushima, as is commonly believed. Tsushima, against all the tragedy and shamefulness of this fact, but the course of the war could no longer influence. And it seems that ZPR realized this back in Madagascar, which is why he scored on everything, but did not find the courage to officially demand the return of the squadron. PS The dry dock for the battleships was in Dalniy.
            2. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 06: 41
              -1
              Quote: rytik32
              2. Shallow fairway. You can only go out at high tide.

              if the fleet consisted of many gunboats up to 3000 tons, then this problem would not be felt
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 4 February 2021 12: 33
                +1
                The mosquito fleet has a big problem: how can we get so many smart officers for command?
                1. clerk
                  clerk 4 February 2021 15: 45
                  +2
                  And most importantly - why?
    2. bbss
      bbss 3 February 2021 13: 30
      +4
      Bullshit! Instead of your gunboat cruisers, you can build a thousand launches and end the Japanese! And they don't need coal ...
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 15: 55
        -1
        Quote: bbss
        you can build a thousand launches

        and how are you going to defeat battleships by longboats? longboats have no artillery ... you are clearly writing nonsense
        1. clerk
          clerk 3 February 2021 17: 30
          +2
          Well, this is elementary - the launches are filled with dynamite, at night the rowers drive them to the parking areas of enemy ships and ram them. Rowers are posthumously awarded the Cross of St. George, and families are paid compensation in the amount of 1000 rubles (enough for a dozen horses).
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 21: 14
            0
            Quote: clerk
            Well, this is elementary - the launches are filled with dynamite, at night the rowers drive them to the parking areas of enemy ships and ram them. Rowers are posthumously awarded the Cross of St. George, and families are paid compensation in the amount of 1000 rubles (enough for a dozen horses).

            this is called a fire-ship, and in the past it was, then something with the psyche was abandoned in you, why blow up on a fire-ship, you can sail away from it in a boat
            1. clerk
              clerk 3 February 2021 21: 52
              0
              The launch is rowing, the charge should be a hundred or two kg, detonation on impact.
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 21: 59
                0
                Quote: clerk
                Rowing boat

                why do you think so? how can you make such nonsense? the fire-ships were towed small barges, and they tried to direct them towards the enemy in the wind, or let them down at night, and why put complex primers when you can just set fire to tow or flammable liquid ... read books learn this is useful
                1. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 22: 01
                  0
                  Brander (German Brander) - a ship loaded with flammable or explosives (explosives), used to set fire to or undermine an enemy ship in order to destroy it. It could be controlled by the crew that left the ship in the middle of the way, or floated downstream or downwind towards the enemy fleet.
                2. clerk
                  clerk 4 February 2021 05: 56
                  0
                  As for the books, I recommend that you find out what the firebugs started when they were used.
        2. bbss
          bbss 4 February 2021 17: 47
          0
          You don't know the concept of "sarcasm"? Then you just haven't grown to BO. Return to the sandbox.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 18: 09
            -1
            Quote: bbss
            Return to the sandbox.

            do not call, I do not want to go back there, because you are sitting there
    3. 27091965
      27091965 3 February 2021 23: 03
      +1
      Quote: vladimir1155
      Meanwhile, Esmeralda had already been invented and the wise Makarov called her an ideal ship. This is a large gunboat or small armored cruiser with a single turret of large caliber guns.


      True, when tested in an experimental pool in 1900, this "armored" cruiser, which was designed by S.O. Makarov, in cases of construction, developed a speed of only 19 knots, clearly not enough for that time. In addition, in one of his notes S.O. Makarov gave a brief simulation of the battle between the Pobeda battleship and the "armored" cruiser, in his opinion the ship he designed would inflict more damage on the battleship than the battleship on the "armless" ship. It is good that these conclusions were not paid attention.

      .
      If, instead of battleships and battleships with large cruisers, we could build gunboats with one 305x40 turret in a large series (and they are at least twice as effective as a battleship because they shoot all guns at the same time, and not half),


      The ideas of the French admiral T. Both are very interesting for that time, but he proposed using such gunboats for battles with ships shelling the port, under the cover of coastal batteries, and you offer them immediately for "slaughter".
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 18: 05
        0
        Quote: 27091965i
        armored "cruiser, which was designed by S.O. Makarov, in cases of construction, developed a speed of only 19 knots, clearly not enough for that time.

        you are apparently smarter than Makarov? only not by your name, but by his great name both ships and higher educational institutions are called ... it is clear that his contemporaries did not grow up to his ideas, And why all the same today there are no battleships you love so much, and all the cruisers are frigates and destroyers without armor? So Makarov was right all the same, and history judged by his ideas, and not by your outdated dogmas, supporters of armored slow-moving monsters drowned in tsushima ...! For your understanding, I will explain, the speed of the ship is provided by the power of its engines, and therefore, of course, not 32, but 21 knots was quite achievable then. (and the wholesale pool is generally not accurate and always with errors) Secondly, for some reason, all of you are trying to oppose one EBR of 10000 tons and one light cruiser of the genius Makarov of 3000 tons, but honestly, you need to consider economically, and if instead of one low-speed EBR we get three cruiser Makarov, then they will gnaw at your outdated EBR with their artillery, for a two-turret EBR has one turret that does not fire, and single-turret EBRs shoot with all their artillery, it turns out three times the combat power and who will win? and if you make gunboats like Hurricane, only bigger, more nautical and with a caliber of 305x40 ... then you get 8 such hurricanes against one EBR ... everything seems clear to me as a result.
        1. 27091965
          27091965 4 February 2021 19: 39
          +1
          Quote: vladimir1155
          you are apparently smarter than Makarov?


          No, but I am familiar with the history of the development of the Navy in different countries.

          it is clear that his contemporaries did not grow up to his ideas

          one light cruiser of the brilliant Makarov of 3000 tons, but honestly, you need to consider economically, and if instead of one low-speed EBR we get three Makarov cruisers, they will gnaw your outdated EBR with their artillery


          The cruiser "Itsukushima" was laid down at the shipyards of the French society "Forget et Chantier Mediterane" in La Seine-sur-Mer on January 7, 1888. It appeared earlier than S.O. Makarov put forward the idea of ​​an "armored" cruiser. Think three of these cruisers will be able to destroy the battleship.

          For your understanding, I will explain, the speed of the ship is provided by the power of its engines, and therefore, of course, not 32, but 21 knots was quite achievable then. (and the wholesale pool is generally not accurate and always with errors




          You can still write a lot on your comment.
  • bbss
    bbss 3 February 2021 13: 25
    +2
    What nonsense is it to associate the name of the ship with the fighting qualities ?!
    1. clerk
      clerk 3 February 2021 13: 42
      -3
      This is a long-known rule at a certain age - "What do you call a yacht - so it will float! (!)
  • Evgeny Seleznev
    Evgeny Seleznev 3 February 2021 14: 06
    +1
    About the fleet it will be forever "This is our eternal fashion for exclusive ...", like fools and roads.
  • Alf
    Alf 3 February 2021 19: 33
    +4
    Quote: vladimir1155
    But not only and not so much .... the main problem is the size! That is why battleships are outdated, they are big and expensive and therefore there are few of them and it is a pity to throw away, and obsolete old people accumulate in the fleet. Meanwhile, Esmeralda had already been invented and the wise Makarov called her an ideal ship. This is a large gunboat or small armored cruiser with a single turret of large caliber guns. If instead of battleships and battleships with large cruisers, we could build gunboats with one 305x40 turret in a large series (and they are at least twice as effective as a battleship because they shoot all the guns at the same time, not half), and even dozens of destroyers and small gunboats of medium caliber (Korean) to destroy destroyers and enemy transports., Then the first squadron would cut off the communications of the Japanese, and would win in Tsushima and the outcome of the war would be different.

    Why do you smoke such and such that you are so rushing?
    You do not buy winter boots for 4-5 thousand, but for this money collect slippers for 100 rubles. And it's cheaper, and it's not a pity to throw it away, and it will go for the street. True, not for long and not in winter ...
    1. unknown
      unknown 3 February 2021 20: 45
      +1
      It's like in the classics of Soviet animation: "Will you sew a hat? I will sew. And six? And six I will sew."
      And sewed it. Just wear it how?
      1. Alf
        Alf 3 February 2021 20: 54
        +2
        Quote: ignoto
        Only wear it like

        So Vladimir1155 explained the same.
        If, instead of battleships and battleships with large cruisers, we could build gunboats with one 305x40 turret in a large series (and they are at least twice as effective as an battleship because they shoot all the guns at the same time, not half), and dozens of destroyers and small gunboats of medium caliber (Korean) to destroy destroyers and enemy transports., Then the first squadron would cut off the communications of the Japanese, and would win in Tsushima and the outcome of the war would be different.
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 3 February 2021 22: 14
      0
      Quote: Alf
      You do not buy winter boots for 4-5 thousand, but for this money collect slippers for 100 rubles. And it's cheaper, and it's not a pity to throw it away, and it will go for the street. True, not for a long time and not in the winter ..

      Does this bother you so much? ... I explain, I am shopping on the applet, for many years everything has been checked, shirts for 100 rubles, jeans for 400 rubles, no difference with the branded ones was found. Winter boots on the aprashke are risky, and in general shoes, so I take the bastards in the military, for 2000 = 2500 they serve a couple of seasons in winter (I walk a lot), summer shoes factory dynamo Leninsky 140, stronger than adidas, bought in 1900 in the fall, nevertheless natural leather , they have not been demolished, I have been taking it there for 30 years, ... so I prefer a couple of winter ones for 2500 instead of one for 5000 and I do not regret it. take it for 5000 and cut it with something, ice for example, and it will still be how much they cost ... but it's not a pity. it is clear that only fools will build 8000 tons of EBR, if it is possible three gunboats of 3000 each, provided the same artillery weapons.
      1. Alf
        Alf 3 February 2021 22: 23
        +3
        Quote: vladimir1155
        shirts for 100 rubles, jeans for 400 rubles,

        I have no more questions ...
        1. clerk
          clerk 4 February 2021 08: 53
          0
          Or maybe he jokes so subtly?
  • bbss
    bbss 4 February 2021 17: 51
    0
    Quote: clerk
    maybe he jokes so subtly?

    Most likely he thinks so.
  • bbss
    bbss 5 February 2021 09: 18
    0
    Quote: vladimir1155
    I don't want to go back there

    No really! The place is right there!
  • geniy
    geniy 6 February 2021 11: 30
    +1
    So, according to the author's version, no one is personally to blame for the fact that Russia lost the RYAV? Allegedly, only the remoteness of the distance and the poor ships, the lack of weapons, are to blame. But I will remind you that not a lack of forces prevented the brilliant commanders and the admiral from gaining victories over the more powerful enemy Ushakov, Suvorov Rumyantsev and many other commanders won with a two or threefold superiority of the enemy. And Admiral Tegetgof at Lissa, fighting on obsolete ships, defeated the Italians. Distances are also not a hindrance: Orlov-Chesmensky made a trip around the whole of Europe to the Mediterranean Sea and defeated the Turks. Yes, and Ushakov fought in the Mediterranean without any bases and crushed the French. Likewise, Suvorov made a trip to the Alps without bases and without supplies. And other commanders - the Russians conquered Central Asia, Kars, Ardahan, the Spaniard Cortes conquered America by defeating a huge empire, Alexander the Great made a campaign in India, Napoleon reached Moscow itself.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 8 February 2021 22: 29
      +2
      I support. As the saying goes, "it was not the bobbin ...". The matter was in the professional suitability of a significant part of that very closed "naval caste", who lived on the memories of past glorious traditions, and it must be admitted that they were eating too much in the widest sense.
  • geniy
    geniy 7 February 2021 09: 50
    +1
    Complete defeat - the greatest catastrophe of the Russian fleet IN RYAV - who is to blame for this? The author of the article answers this question: in his opinion, no one is to blame! However, he is silent about glaring facts.
    First, before that war, Russian sailors confidently believed that they had the best shells in the world for their guns. Now this fact is blatantly forgotten. BUT what is this opinion based on? And the fact is that before the invention of trinitrotoluene, there was simply no explosive capable of withstanding the impact of a projectile on armor without an explosion - all types of explosives immediately detonated spontaneously. And the detonation of the explosive charge before piercing the armor is absolutely harmless. I have just found the explosion tests of 10 kg of TNT on unreinforced concrete so there is no hole at all. And armor steel is much stronger than concrete. That is, in order to inflict damage on a ship, the projectile must first pierce the armor and only then explode - this is an axiom. But laymen do not know that Japanese shells did not penetrate the armor at all - they spontaneously detonated on its outer surface, leaving only scratches. There was a case when 2 Japanese 305 mm shells immediately hit the Eagle's armor belt and this ship even tilted from this - but did not receive any damage !! And in those years it was indisputably believed that it was impossible to sink an armored ship without breaking through its armor. Therefore, the Japanese with their shells could not sink Russian ships in the RYAV. Here all the fools will immediately exclaim that this is not true - after all, the majority was sunk! To this I will answer that not a single Russian ship was sunk in the battle in the Yellow Sea. And in Tsushima, the Russian ships died due to the fault of their teams - the wrong fight for survivability - and Rozhestvensky is personally to blame for this. The fact is that in the middle part of the newest battleships there was an armored casemate and the Japanese shells did not penetrate its armor, which means there were no holes in the sides of the casemate and therefore the water did not drain from it, unlike the unarmored bow and stern extremities, which were turned into a sieve , but the water flowed out through these holes. And in the casemate the water stood up to the knee of sailors, and therefore all the newest battleships in battle went with a roll. Only on Oryol did the sailors bother without an order to drain the water into the hold. I'm too lazy to explain to you how and why the Russian ships actually sank in Tsushima, but I warn lovers of connoisseurs - that YOU will not all have enough sense to solve this mystery - because there was not one common reason for all - each Russian ship died from its own individual cause and I am the only person in the world who has meticulously investigated everything.
    But here is a typical example - the battleship Admiral Ushakov. It would seem - what doubts there can be - its displacement is only 5 thousand tons, and two Japanese armored cruisers have a total of 20 thousand tons - already 4 times more! What doubts can there be who will win? However, in fact, Ushakov should have won if he had fought the battle correctly. Because its 254 mm thick armor was, in principle, impenetrable by Japanese 203 mm shells, and if you had enough memory to remember the rule: an armored ship cannot be sunk without breaking through its armor belt, then it is clear that the Japanese could not have sunk it. But why then he drowned - the profane will ask. And in my opinion - just at the end of the battle he could not shoot at the Japanese - probably not only his towers were out of order, but also the shells ran out. Therefore, it was flooded by its own team from hopelessness. By the way, the cruiser Rurik was not sunk by Japanese shells - in fact, it was also sunk by its own team.
    All of you stupidly know that Ushakov did not reach the Japanese cruisers with his shells, but this is because of the roll towards the Japanese. But if Ushakov turned in the opposite direction from Vladivostok, then a roll to the other side of the enemy would help several times to increase his firing range - more than a hundred cables, and then he could inflict damage on the Japanese - but he was not smart enough. However, you will say that the Japanese cruisers could easily have escaped from Ushakov. But this is not a fact, because the projectile flies anyway faster than the ship sails. The projectile has a speed of 500 m / s and the cruiser has 10 m / s. So the projectile will still catch up with the cruiser, and having received one or two large-caliber projectiles in the engine-boiler rooms, any cruiser will inevitably stop and then Ushakov could shoot them both, using his large-caliber artillery. After all, his shells easily pierced their armor belt.
    By the way, the surrender of the Nebogatov battleship detachment is also explained by the almost complete absence of shells: on Nicholas 1 there were only 9 shots per barrel, and on Orel in the aft turret - only 2 shells per gun, and in the broken bow turret 331 kilogram shells can be was only lifted from the cellars manually. So Admiral Ushakov, before the last battle, had no more than 9 shells in the cellars, and by the end of it - hardly more than 1-2 shells per barrel. There was nothing to shoot with - all that remained was to drown.
  • geniy
    geniy 7 February 2021 09: 56
    -1
    In general, the Japanese did not have any chances to win either in the entire RYAF or in the specifically Tsushima battle - they were doomed to defeat, if not for Rozhestvensky. The author of that article brazenly hides not only the fact that the Russians had the best shells in the world, but also the fact that in Tsushima the Russians had 43 large-caliber guns, and the Japanese had only 17, because the 203 mm guns of that time were moving towards the average caliber, and they were the majority. The laymen do not know that damage from medium caliber relative to their number of shots is much less than from large caliber. Therefore, after the RYAV, the whole world began to build dreadnoughts without medium-caliber guns, and rightly so. The fundamental difference between large-caliber shells and medium-caliber shells is that the former can penetrate the armor of the main belt, while medium-caliber shells, in principle, do not penetrate, which means that it is practically impossible to sink an armored ship with them.
    But the main difference between Russian shells and all the others is because they used extremely wet pyroxylin - with a water content of about 30%. Moreover, the water content did not greatly reduce the explosive power of pyroxylin. But semi-dry pyroxylin with a moisture content of no more than 20% spontaneously detonated no worse than shimosa. Moreover, what is most interesting is that the Russian shells in their destructive power were much superior to the Japanese, even though the content of explosives in the Japanese was about 4 times higher: 10% versus 2,5%, and if we also take into account the fact that wet pyroxylin one third consisted of water, the ratio of explosive power is generally lower than any criticism. However, the laymen do not know that the high-explosive force of the explosion in a sea battle does not play a role at all, because in order to break the steel body of the projectile, very little explosives are needed, but fragments fly further, and the shock wave of the explosion has very little effect on strong steel structures ... But due to the fact that the Russian shells had thick walls, the fragments of these walls were very large and heavy in comparison with the Japanese. According to the laws of physics, the fragments fly from the epicenter, but they are slowed down by air resistance. However, the heavier the piece of iron, the farther it will fly. And according to calculations, fragments of large-caliber Russian shells scattered over an area with a diameter of about 1,5 km (1500 m), while the Japanese - from the strength of 50 m.But the truth is there were thousands of Japanese fragments, and only dozens of Russians. But heavy Russian fragments could easily penetrate the skin of the sides of Japanese ships at a distance of half a kilometer from the epicenter, and Japanese - only close.
    Thus, if the Russian shells during the RYAV exploded even a little, then all the Japanese ships would be turned into a sieve by shrapnel holes from the close fall of the shells - it turns out that the Russian artillerymen did not need to shoot accurately. But the paradox is that Russian shells did not explode at all in Tsushima or in other battles! But with rare hits on Japanese ships, the shells gave false signs of explosions: this is a bright flash from the impact of the shell on metal, the crash of the impact and fragments from the structures of the Japanese ship broken by this blow. And now stupid history buffs often ignore this fact and consider only other figures - the speed of ships, the number of guns, the weight of shells and explosives in them, not knowing or forgetting that Russian shells did not explode at all. And even the Russian officers themselves did not know about this during that war! And the only person who could know that Russian shells do not explode at all is Admiral Rozhdestvensky - he is the main culprit in the defeat of the Russian fleet. Because, although it is rare, nevertheless, sometimes in the navy they fired real war shells and could notice that they did not explode. And Rozhestvensky - this deceiver - at the demonstration firing in front of the Russian and German emperors, he ordered to set targets with such weak mountings that they would fall simply from the air stream of shells flying by. Thus, it is Rozhdestvensky who is guilty of the fact that the Russian sailors were armed with a "wooden sword".
    By the way, the Japanese shells were actually shit too. Therefore, in the first half of the war, they often did not explode either, or spontaneously detonated from hitting the armor. But the Russians in Port Arthur openly scoffed that Japanese shells did not explode, and then, after the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Japanese did a great job and replaced the fuses for all large-caliber shells, so that they began to explode from the slightest impact. Moreover, in the Battle of Tsushima, 110 guns exploded from a premature detonation of the Japanese from a premature detonation - this is counting medium-caliber guns (I am writing from memory - information from the Gangut collection, it seems number 2). And Semenov said that these were completely different shells than in the battle in the Yellow Sea.
    In contrast, Russian shells did not explode at all. But the paradox is that even firing non-explosive shells, the Russian sailors could still win if they used the right tactics! The fact is that even a non-exploding blank shell is capable of sinking an enemy ship. During WWII, the Germans fired at tanks with blanks alone. Because the blank does not just pierce the armor, but it also creates a huge swarm of fragments of the armor itself after it is pierced. And steel fragments inside an artillery tower or casemate will certainly cause a fire of gunpowder and an explosion of shells of an enemy ship - Fuji simply miraculously escaped death, and if there were dozens of cases of gunpowder fires on Japanese ships, then the entire Japanese fleet would be sunk. But the ability to penetrate armor strongly depends on the firing distance - the smaller it is, the more likely it is to penetrate. And for Japanese shells, this rule did not apply, because their explosives spontaneously detonated from impact on armor. Therefore, the most optimal distance for the Russians is 10 cables - to penetrate the armor, and for the Japanese - no closer than 30 cables so as not to get many holes in the armor. And here the stupid connoisseurs will immediately say that the Fuji tower with 152 mm armor was pierced, but in fact Fuji was covered with Harvey armor, which is weaker than the Krupp armor and its 152 mm tower armor is equivalent to about 127 mm Krupp armor. Therefore, all Russian ships had to go for a quick rapprochement with the Japanese - in order to reduce the distance and achieve penetration of their armor.
    But here all the fake experts will say that the Japanese had a high speed of 16 knots, and the Russians only 9 knots, which means that the Japanese could maintain an advantageous distance. But this is cheating. Firstly, it was Rozhestvensky who ordered to keep such a low speed just because of two transports, and secondly, the entire Russian squadron cleaned the underwater skin of their ships with scrapers, and fouling with algae and shells is the main factor in increasing the resistance to the ship's progress and reducing its speed. While many Japanese ships did not dock for more than six months for cleaning, and therefore had a speed two knots less than the passport speed. But the most important thing is tactics. If you turn your ship strictly with its nose at the enemy, then in 10 minutes there will be a rapprochement and firing point-blank, which is very beneficial for the Russians. And it is almost impossible to avoid this - only if all Japanese turned stern to the Russians and began to run away. But at an equal speed of the Japanese battleships of 16 knots and a detachment of the latest Russian battleships and cruisers with destroyers, they will be able to maintain this distance for several hours, and the shells will fly longitudinally along the ships and pierce the casemates and decks, falling into the engine-boiler rooms. And then both fleets will stop from such damage in the immediate vicinity in the form of a formation of an ugly heap and the Russians would have shot the Japanese piercing their armor from close range. But Rozhestvensky did not draw up such a battle plan - here he is the main culprit in the defeat of the Russian fleet.
  • Sychev Vitalii
    Sychev Vitalii 8 February 2021 18: 40
    0
    Initially, there was no need to climb there, otherwise, panimash, they stupidly wanted to shower the narrow-eyed with hats ...
  • andrew42
    andrew42 8 February 2021 22: 14
    +2
    This is a strange article. The "zazdravnoe" start seems to be correct - about logistics, and about the technical support of the 1st TOE, and about a variety of goods with subclasses of ships. But the final conclusion is not acceptable. This is a war, and you always have to fight with what you have. There is, of course, an alternative, put your head under your katana and calm down. But this is not an option. The question is how effectively it is possible to use the available combat resources, neutralize weaknesses, and use to the maximum what is possible. It was with this that there was a problem - with the top command and administrative cadres, with their captive moods up to the very attack on Stark's squadron, and the subsequent sheer despondency and awareness of the unwillingness to wage a modern war from the first months. Even if the headquarters officer Vitgeft passed the naval training exam following the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, then what was the quality of the other command personnel (except for Stepan Osipovich, who had not spilled the raid) - alas and ah! - Messrs. Stoessel and Fock are certainly odious figures, but far from alone in their "zeal". There is another story about the geniuses of naval warfare. Let's start with the fact that the 2nd TOE was sent in parts, at different times, although the time factor simply burned out, and it was necessary to send all the forces in one detachment, at least half of the pennants. Instead, Mr. Rozhdestvensky (possibly in the hope of a "reversal") chilled out for three months in Madagascar, which he clearly did not mind. So "to the rescue" do not go. And they also do not go obediently "with the whole flock" to slaughter in the Tsushima Strait, as the blinkered admiral-Kaperang caste did. Rozhestvensky was unable to act outside the box in a difficult (no doubt) situation when it was necessary to surprise the enemy. Instead of breaking through Tsushima with the backbone of the EBR on a good course, with minimal cruising and destroyer cover, launching a "slow-moving horde" around Japan, he stupidly led everyone in a crowd to slaughter, like a herd to slaughter. And there is only one reason - no matter how something happens, a wild fear of being responsible in case of failure, it is easier to put sailors on the selfish, and spread with their little hands "well, I told you" Logistics, training, repair capabilities, - yes, an important thing, but in As a result, Cadres are everything! With such personnel, no "readiness for war" will save.
  • Lesnik982
    Lesnik982 9 February 2021 16: 06
    0
    "And it was necessary to resign and the newspaper scandal. And people would not have died, and the ships were useful, and the fleet would be repaired." - Most likely, people died somewhere else, and the ships would not be useful, and the fleet would not be repaired. The lessons of war are written only in blood, and even then not always. Tsushima as a collective image became such precisely because it happened. But it would not be - and what a demand, they would curse these admirals until their shameful death from old age.
  • All the details
    All the details 14 February 2021 19: 03
    +1
    I read the first sentence and agreed. And then there is a lot of verbiage ...
  • Vladimir Maximov
    Vladimir Maximov 18 February 2021 08: 42
    0
    What do you think about the war in Syria ????