Military Review

China celebrates the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the J-20: "This fighter changed the balance of power and made the whole world talk about itself."

115

China is celebrating the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the J-20. Some intermediate results were also summed up. Recall that the first flight of this combat aircraft, which in China belongs to the new generation, took place in January 2011. Then in Beijing they said that China became the second country in the world, which has a new generation of fighters - 4th according to the Chinese classification, the fifth according to the global classification.


The Chinese media published an interview with one of the designers of the J-20 Yang Wei.

According to Yang Wei, when developing a new generation fighter "it was necessary to use the aircraft-building technologies available at that time, to create on their basis a new technological groundwork for improving the design of a combat aircraft."

Yang Wei:

I was very lucky as a large team of really talented people worked with me.

The Chinese press cited statements by military experts. Among them is Song Zhunping, who put it this way:

The J-20 became the first Chinese fighter that was not only comparable to US aircraft, but also surpassed it in a number of parameters. For example, the combat radius of the J-20 is approximately 300 km greater than the combat radius of the F-22 of the US Air Force. This is also the first time that our air superiority has become a threat to American stealth fighters. Then we were all inspired by this news.

According to Zhunping, the PLA Air Force J-20 fighter "changed the balance of power and made the whole world talk about itself."

At the same time, today the Chinese press notes that 10 years after the first flight of the J-20 fighter, they have certain problems. One of the main ones is the problem associated with their own engines. Chinese aviation the power plants do not yet fully meet the requests that the Chinese Air Force command makes to them. However, as noted, work continues on the WS-15 engines, "and they are being improved more and more."
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  2. Doccor18
    Doccor18 31 January 2021 17: 08
    +10
    This fighter changed the balance of power.

    Not yet.
    ... and made the whole world talk about himself "

    But this is yes. The country, which has not done 4 generations, swung to the 5th, at a time when most aviation luminaries can only dream of it ...
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 17: 31
      -14%
      Quote: Doccor18
      A country that hasn’t done for 4 generations


      J-10
      1. Doccor18
        Doccor18 31 January 2021 17: 35
        +10
        Did they design it themselves?
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 17: 39
          -14%
          I didn’t hold a candle (neither do you). Move on to the point.
          1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
            Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 17: 45
            +9
            Quote: Eye of the Crying
            Move on to the point.

            "Russian consultants from TsAGI and OKB MiG participated in the creation of the aircraft."
            Quote from Wikipedia.
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 17: 49
              -14%
              Yes, it is written. But it is not written what the participation was (and even when it was). This may turn out to be another legend about Schmeiser and AK-47.
              1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 17: 56
                +11
                Quote: Eye of the Crying
                Yes, it is written. But it is not written what the participation was (and even when it was). This may turn out to be another legend about Schmeiser and AK-47.

                Again, Wikipedia says:
                J-10 - maiden flight - March 23, 1998. Operation started in 2005.
                J-20 - maiden flight - January 11, 2011. Start of operation - 2017.
                That is, the Chinese independently, without any outside help, have developed a fifth generation fighter in thirteen years? And they adopted it just six years after the first flight? With minimal experience in aircraft construction before?
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 18: 08
                  -15%
                  Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
                  That is, the Chinese on their own, without any outside help, have developed a fifth generation fighter in thirteen years?


                  I didn’t hold the candle, and I don’t know if they developed it themselves, or with the secret help of Lockheed, or with the help of industrial espionage, or with the help of aliens. I don't know if they developed it in 13 years or 23 years (but the J-20 is similar, for example, to one of the AFTI concepts). I don't even know if this is a good fighter. But I know that before the J-20, the Chinese made the 4th generation aircraft (J-10).
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 1 February 2021 02: 18
                    +7
                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    But I know that before the J-20, the Chinese made the 4th generation aircraft (J-10).

                    Watch the history of the Israeli fighter "Lavi" and you will be admitted.
                    The United States convinced Israel to abandon the production of its own 4th generation light fighter by offering to buy their F-16 from them. For their own money.
                    And Israel agreed. yes
                    But the work will not be lost when the plane has already flown and really turned out ... And they sold all the documentation and all the materials to China.
                    This was known at the turn of the 80s - 90s, and was actively discussed.
                    In the early to mid-90s, China turned to TsAGI and the MiG Design Bureau for help in order to help with the development of a light fighter with an AL-31F engine based on the Lavi airframe (they basically had no other engine options).
                    TsAGI modified and blew out the airframe and adapted it for the AL-31F engine.
                    KB im. The cradles created a special modification of the AL-31F (with a special arrangement of the aggregate box) specifically for the J-10.
                    KB MiG helped with hardware and aggregate saturation of the airframe and organization of production.
                    So China did not develop this fighter on its own. But its further modifications are more of their creativity. Although not without the help of Israeli, British and Russian firms.
                    Well, cadres from the former USSR have been intensively recruited and exported to China since the 90s.
                    But the J-20 is really their development.
                    Although not without industrial espionage and Russian engines at the first stage.
                    1. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 02: 23
                      -6
                      Quote: bayard
                      Watch the history of the Israeli fighter "Lavi" and you will be admitted.


                      And I also heard this legend. Israelis love to tell it.

                      Quote: bayard
                      But the J-20 is really their development.


                      And there is a legend that this is the MiG-1.44

                      Quote: bayard
                      Although not without industrial espionage


                      What exactly did the Chinese get from espionage?
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 1 February 2021 02: 45
                        +3
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        And I also heard this legend. Israelis love to tell it.

                        This is not a legend, but a completely legal deal, a lot was written about it at that time in our press, the press of the USA, Israel, Britain, etc. The Chinese, about their clones of our Su-27 and Su-30, asserted that "these are our own developments." This is a Chinese tradition and should not be taken seriously.
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        And there is a legend that this is the MiG-1.44

                        They started talking about it right after the appearance of the J-20. Indeed, the glider (without taking into account the shape and location of the air intakes and engine nacelles) is very similar to the MiG-1.44. But it also resembles their lightweight J-10 - the Duck layout, the wing shape ... It is also similar to the Rafale, albeit more distantly.
                        In any case, the J-20 is an exclusively Chinese development, albeit with compilations (the shape of the air intakes is similar to the air intakes on the F-35). A very interesting solution for retractable weapons holders from the inner compartments.
                      2. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 02: 51
                        -3
                        Quote: bayard
                        This is not a legend, but a completely legal deal


                        The legend is that J-10 is essentially Lavi. Lavi himself is, of course, completely real.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But it also resembles their lightweight J-10


                        It also resembles some of the AFTI concepts, and more than the J-10.
                      3. bayard
                        bayard 1 February 2021 03: 33
                        +4
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        The legend is that J-10 is essentially Lavi. Lavi himself is, of course, completely real.

                        J-10 is a redesigned Lavi project for the Al-31F engine and new avionics.
                        The press of a number of states reflected that TsAGI had received an order from China to rework the Lavi project under the AL-31F engine.
                        KB im. The cradles made a special modification of the AL-31F engine for this project with a special arrangement of the aggregate box.
                        KB MiG helped to develop the aggregate and hardware saturation of this airframe and the organization of its production at production sites in China.
                        This is all - the official history, reflected in hundreds (!) Of publications.
                        Therefore, in its pure form, the J-10 is not a Lavi fighter, but is its development or, if you like, a modification.
                        Or a modified clone.
                        In any case, this is NOT an INDEPENDENT development of China.
                        And in general - not its development.
                        But its further modifications are already the work of Chinese designers, albeit with the involvement of companies from Israel, England and the Russian Federation.
                        After all, it was from this that the dispute began - that China did not have the experience of INDEPENDENT development of a 4th generation fighter. Although he certainly has extensive experience in the production and modernization of such fighters.
                      4. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 09: 47
                        -3
                        Quote: bayard
                        J-10 is a redesigned Lavi project for the Al-31F engine and new avionics.


                        This is what I call a legend.

                        Quote: bayard
                        After all, it was with this that the dispute began - that China did not have the experience of INDEPENDENT development of a 4th generation fighter.


                        The controversy began with the claim that China "did not make" the 4th generation aircraft. And this is another statement.
          2. Zoldat_A
            Zoldat_A 31 January 2021 22: 18
            +2
            Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
            That is, the Chinese independently, without any outside help, have developed a fifth generation fighter in thirteen years? And they adopted it just six years after the first flight? With minimal experience in aircraft construction before?

            Even the Americans praised by a certain stratum of our society with their "most powerful" ("ha-ha" 3 times) military-industrial complex did not succeed with the F-35. And then ... "Gloomy Chinese Genius"?
          3. yehat2
            yehat2 31 January 2021 22: 58
            +5
            Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
            And they adopted it just six years after the first flight?

            j-10 and j-20 are essentially the products of one project called plagiarism.
            The j-20 is not a new generation of fighters, but a new generation of plagiarism.
            If earlier the Chinese copied without invention, now they have begun to creatively assemble a product from other people's components.
            The same j-20 consists of stolen and purchased technologies mig-1.44, f-22, f-35, su-27 and, I think, the list is far from complete.
            The same story with their fleet and armored vehicles - the layout of other people's decisions.
            I am not inclined to laugh at China, they have specific goals and they go to them in the most effective ways. The same USSR made aviation completely out of plagiarism before the war. China's developments are still very timid and weak, but they are growing. On the other hand, we have fewer and fewer of our own developments.
            1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
              Sidor Amenpodestovich 1 February 2021 09: 15
              +2
              Quote: yehat2
              On the other hand, we have fewer and fewer of our own developments.

              Which of our own developments do we have less and less?
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 1 February 2021 09: 42
                +1
                Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
                We have less and less of our own developments

                yes everywhere.
                for example, all special groups on naval air defense missiles have recently been disbanded.
                it got to the point that we are no longer able to make a normal air defense officer for an aircraft carrier.
                it would seem - if you want - steal from the USA or France, if you want - use the developments of the USSR, if you want - invent it yourself. But no. There is no single option.
                Such a direction as robotics is simply zeroed out. We have a few do-it-yourself labs left, but there is no industry.
                And the further, the more the scientific and technological progress shrinks, because there is no experimental and scientific base, and a tenth of the former, there are only remnants of the USSR developments and by inertia not all specialists have disappeared yet.
                1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                  Sidor Amenpodestovich 1 February 2021 10: 07
                  0
                  Quote: yehat2
                  yes everywhere.

                  Clear. As always, everything is very, very bad.
                2. yehat2
                  yehat2 1 February 2021 10: 08
                  +1
                  I do not do demagoguery. I just worked in 3 defense enterprises and saw with my own eyes the difference between what is now and what was before the collapse of the USSR.
                  Basically yes, everything is either bad or not at all.
              2. KCA
                KCA 2 February 2021 07: 39
                +2
                Uranium-9, adopted and entering the troops, is, of course, never a robotics, and so, self-indulgence, and the fact that it is able to operate without an operator, including the use of weapons, dirt from under the nails, and Uranus-6, also no, and he did not clear Syria, we are lagging behind, we are lagging behind the United States, where there is NOT a single autonomous bot, only under the control of the operator, and, of course, the S-70 is just a cartoon, this cannot be in backward Russia
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 31 January 2021 17: 41
    +7
    China celebrates the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the J-20: "This fighter changed the balance of power and made the whole world talk about itself."
    about a dead engine ... yes they said, like about ours, but everything seems to be getting better with us, even though I and the old motor of the first complete set of su57 AL-41F1-wow ... they row forward in avionics not childishly, and we do not seem to be lagging behind (behind the hidden doors), but they too are rowing the devils forward ... and they still have more opportunities in microelectronics. now the main thing is not to lose the course.
    1. ironic
      ironic 31 January 2021 19: 05
      -2
      Why is it dead? Not the best, maybe.
  • newcomer
    newcomer 31 January 2021 17: 46
    0
    Not bad, was, "Lavi", the plane from Israel.
    1. ironic
      ironic 31 January 2021 19: 04
      -3
      It became J-10.
  • El Chuvachino
    El Chuvachino 31 January 2021 17: 57
    +8
    You might think that they created the J-20 from scratch, and not on the basis of 1.44
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 18: 24
      -9
      The 1.42 itself is similar to the old Rockwell concept.
      1. El Chuvachino
        El Chuvachino 31 January 2021 19: 22
        +3
        There is a big difference between “selling technical documentation to China” and “similar”.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 19: 27
          -5
          Where can I read about selling documentation to China?
          1. El Chuvachino
            El Chuvachino 31 January 2021 23: 34
            0
            Who need to know the.
    2. ironic
      ironic 31 January 2021 19: 08
      -8
      And you probably dont think that Tu-16 and their six are also close, except in appearance of the car?
  • ironic
    ironic 31 January 2021 19: 03
    -8
    You don't see him, but he is ... just almost quoting ... wink
  • Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 31 January 2021 17: 12
    +4
    Why would they just swing at the 26th generation?)))
    And there are no engines, no technologies.

    A hammer launched with a strong, albeit Chinese hand, can also fly.
    Only a little and not for long)))
    1. ironic
      ironic 31 January 2021 19: 09
      -2
      And they fly on a WS-10 broomstick, everything else is duralumin sheathing.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. ironic
          ironic 31 January 2021 20: 20
          -4
          But the third version will also completely replace the Russian ones before the end of work on the promising tag. And here we’re going to rub together what they don’t have there, they don’t know how much they will rub?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. ironic
              ironic 31 January 2021 20: 34
              -3
              Well, in this, in any case, it is impossible to surpass you even with putty, even without ... you cannot drink the experience of graters. lol
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. ironic
                  ironic 31 January 2021 20: 57
                  -3
                  From Kfar Saba, if you are interested exactly. Although I write with mistakes, but still not with such stupid methods of dreary attempts at a banter, which is not your intellect. And you are not building a dialogue. Your pour tries to pull me to that disgusting level of trolling will not going to success. Try something more intellectual if you can .. it is already the question if ...
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. ironic
                      ironic 31 January 2021 21: 15
                      -3
                      If you even was trying, but you really not. I new you stigmatically predicted reaction before you start to write it down. I used that manner of sentences build that never generated by translators with reason. But it was much more than actually was needed in order to realize who is in front of me. Not only your English is poor. But in "go on" you was right, no if, no points after it, it is definitely very low IQ detected. fool

                      PS /// see the google translator in you at all /// - that was phenomenal!

                      PS2 You didn't even notice my mistake in the word "poor" for the first time, which would have been impossible in the case of a translator, but you couldn't, there wouldn't be enough substance.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. ironic
                        ironic 31 January 2021 21: 36
                        -4
                        Your level of stupidity is 118 ... but in trolling the only level you can reach is fat. In case we will touch such a thing like level of behaver ... learn to behave yourself, it is never too late.
                      3. Crimean partisan 1974
                        Crimean partisan 1974 31 January 2021 22: 29
                        +3
                        my IQ is from 118-124)) ..... but in trolling the only level you can reach is fat. .... that's interesting, and in which laboratories for psycho-physical analysis did you pass, in private or public
            2. aszzz888
              aszzz888 1 February 2021 01: 27
              +1

              0
              I see that you are still from the very city that you can't drink without grapes))

              What do you have in life?
              I do not threaten, there is, say a couple of normal words in English))

              Otherwise, the dialogue cannot be built)))
              Don't waste your time on an Israelite bot, it doesn't deserve it. Rubs here, hisses at everything Russian - it is clear what, and who is charged.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 20: 42
      0
      Quote: Lord of the Sith
      Well, they don't have a flight school, whatever one may say.

      In the sense of? Expand the thought.
    3. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 31 January 2021 22: 28
      +2
      Quote: Lord of the Sith
      It's like putting a firecracker into the pilot's anus, Chinese engines are now about nothing, well, they don't have a flight school, whatever one may say.

      You're wrong - the Chinese have a centuries-old flight school laughing
      We can say for sure that in the 15th century, the Chinese already had rockets, since the chronicles of that time describe the flight of the mandarin Wang-gu to heaven. The nobleman built a strange unit - a seat attached to two box kites and hung with forty-seven powder rockets. The servants simultaneously set fire to the rockets, and ... a desperate enthusiast took off into the sky in the literal and figurative sense.

      laughing
  • Bradley
    Bradley 31 January 2021 17: 15
    +5
    This is also the first time that our air superiority has become a threat to American stealth fighters. Then we were all inspired by this news.


    The United States has a rich aircraft building history, they have a lot of experience. China has no such history, and therefore no experience.
    The moment when the journeyman considers himself at least as good as the master. And the apprentice is a beginner.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 31 January 2021 17: 48
      +3
      Quote: Bradley
      The United States has a rich aircraft building history, they have a lot of experience.

      they themselves are less years old than our Bolshoi Theater ... and they were "lucky" that everyone who had a "noose" in their homeland for crimes fled there.
      1. Bradley
        Bradley 31 January 2021 19: 31
        -4
        they themselves are less years old than our Bolshoi Theater ... and they were "lucky" that everyone who had a "noose" in their homeland for crimes fled there.

        Bayan myth.
        In general, the colonists were nobles, if we are talking about England. This was their problem, as they were afraid to get the pens dirty. Then came both workers and craftsmen, such as carpenters, blacksmiths, etc. And the noose did not shine for them. Moreover, no one would send a suicide bomber to the New World, no Sir would take him.
        1. poquello
          poquello 31 January 2021 21: 05
          +1
          Quote: Bradley
          Then came both workers and craftsmen, such as carpenters, blacksmiths, etc. And the noose did not shine for them. Moreover, no one would send a suicide bomber to the New World, no Sir would take him.

          and how many Germans died under US bombs in Dresden?
          1. Bradley
            Bradley 31 January 2021 21: 49
            0
            and how many Germans died under US bombs in Dresden?

            And how many British and Soviet citizens died under the bombs of Gerania?
            1. poquello
              poquello 31 January 2021 22: 24
              +1
              Quote: Bradley
              and how many Germans died under US bombs in Dresden?

              And how many British and Soviet citizens died under the bombs of Gerania?

              but what then
              Quote: Bradley
              Bayan myth.
              ?
              the colonization of the new world by England was given to two trading companies who would have brought the devil there if they could. The British brought the people there almost by force, shook everyone in a row, what nafig Sera))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))))))))))))))))))))))
              1. Bradley
                Bradley 31 January 2021 23: 08
                0
                but what then

                ?
                the colonization of the new world by England was given to two trading companies that would have brought the devil there if they could. The British brought the people there almost by force, shook everyone in a row, what nafig Seers

                The New World was presented as a kind of paradise, so there were enough people willing. Read how Virginia (Jamestown settlement) was founded, who sailed there. And this was already after the very Roanoke and other settlements destroyed by the Indians and Spaniards.
                Or was John Smith a suicide bomber? The same Smith who fought with the Turks and traveled around Europe? He was not at court, but he did lead Jamestown, because the nobles could not. He actually saved Jamestown. It says a lot!
                Even Nathaniel Bacon was not a criminal, and it was he who destroyed Jamestown.
                Yes, what to say if Virginia was aristocratic a little less than completely.
                Does the man Thomas West say anything to you?

                Remember Plymouth? Some criminals and death row, right? No, a whole ship of Puritan colonists.

                I've never read about colonization, but nowhere have I seen anything about criminals or prisoners.

                There is only one BUT - for the entire time of colonization in the States there were 50 thousand of those same criminals and suicide bombers, for more than 2.5 million people (the British).
                1. poquello
                  poquello 1 February 2021 00: 19
                  +1
                  Quote: Bradley
                  The New World was presented as a kind of paradise, so there were enough people willing.


                  Over the six decades of the 1717 Act in the American colonies, the transport of prisoners and others helped provide much-needed colonial labor, which in turn increased its production and benefited the kingdom as a whole. Wikipedia site: wikichi.ru
                  then I think you will figure it out for yourself)
                  1. Bradley
                    Bradley 1 February 2021 20: 58
                    +1
                    I know that England exiled garbage to its colonies, but very few of them came to the New World, 50 thousand out of 2.6 million. just over 5%, which does not correspond to the fact that the new world was populated entirely by criminals, rapists and suicide bombers.
                    1. poquello
                      poquello 1 February 2021 21: 40
                      0
                      Quote: Bradley
                      I know that England exiled garbage to its colonies, but very few of them came to the New World, 50 thousand out of 2.6 million. just over 5%, which does not correspond to the fact that the new world was populated entirely by criminals, rapists and suicide bombers.

                      did not understand (
                      Between 1614 and 1775 for years have been convicted over 50 English men, women and children. to be deported in American colonies for crimes ranging from handkerchief theft to bigamy or highway robbery, and sold as servants for 7 to 14 years depending on the crime against the crown.
                      Complete book of emigrants in slavery, 1614-1775 Wikipedia site: wikichi.ru

                      50000 or rather 59000 are only those who were sentenced
                      1. Bradley
                        Bradley 2 February 2021 11: 15
                        +1
                        American colonies, not a colony.)
        2. Zoldat_A
          Zoldat_A 31 January 2021 22: 56
          +1
          Quote: Bradley
          Then both workers and craftsmen, such as carpenters, blacksmiths, etc., came along.

          In the days of Fort Ross, the ancestors of today's "Americans" were "workers and craftsmen like carpenters, blacksmiths, etc." did not know how to make CAR WHEELS. All California rode on wheels made in Fort Ross.
          Quote: Bradley
          no one would send a suicide bomber to the New World

          Nobody "sent" them there. They were RUNNING THROUGH THE LOOP. A bunch of criminals, bums, adventurers and losers.

          Anyone who has a well-established business, who can create something, is a good specialist (and, therefore, is appreciated where he works and is appreciated HERE AND NOW) - will never leave his workshop (manufacture, farm, bakery, creamery, sausage workshop and so on) somewhere in Germany, Sweden or England and will not trample behind thirty-three "stars" on an empty spot to catch the Blue Bird by the tail ...

          An illustrative example is the same California. During the "gold rush" of 1848, the population of California grew 25 (!!!) times in two years and still 10% of the US population lives in California. With Alaska, this number did not work - it's cold. And in California, stick a birch shovel stalk into the ground - an orange tree will grow. I bought a dozen blacks for the plantation and live happily ever after, spit on the ceiling - "American dream", damn it ...
          1. Bradley
            Bradley 31 January 2021 23: 15
            0
            Nobody "sent" them there. They were RUNNING THROUGH THE LOOP. A bunch of criminals, bums, adventurers and losers.

            And they were released with God. Well, okay, he killed a hundred people, it doesn't matter, there is a ticket to America.
            They fled only if no one knew anything about their past.

            Anyone who has a well-established business, who can create something, is a good specialist (and, therefore, is appreciated where he works and is appreciated HERE AND NOW) - will never leave his workshop (manufacture, farm, bakery, creamery, sausage workshop and so on) somewhere in Germany, Sweden or England and will not go for thirty-three "stars" to an empty spot to catch the Blue Bird by the tail ..

            Who, in your opinion, rebuilt the colonies? Did you grow up yourself? One cannot do without carpenters, whatever one may say, and blacksmiths are needed, labor force.

            An illustrative example is the same California. During the "gold rush" of 1848, the population of California grew 25 (!!!) times in two years and still 10% of the US population lives in California. With Alaska, this number did not work - it's cold. And in California, stick a birch shovel stalk into the ground - an orange tree will grow. I bought a dozen blacks for the plantation and live happily ever after, spit on the ceiling - "American dream", damn it ...

            The land is rich, and where the land is rich, there are people.
          2. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 00: 56
            -4
            Quote: Zoldat_A
            And in California, stick a birch shovel stalk into the ground - an orange tree will grow. I bought a dozen blacks for the plantation and live happily ever after, spit on the ceiling - "American dream", damn it ...


            American California never had slavery.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 20: 47
      +2
      Quote: Bradley
      The USA has a rich aircraft building history,

      Is 117 years a rich history? The Greeks have much more. They have Daedalus and Icarus, the devil knows when they flew.
      1. Bradley
        Bradley 31 January 2021 20: 58
        0
        They have Daedalus and Icarus, the devil knows when they flew.

        Indeed, I forgot about the little Icarus.) Wax is an unreliable thing.)
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 31 January 2021 17: 15
    +4
    But this fighter of the 5th generation has been flying the AL-10 for 31 years ... And nothing ... And what generation should be considered the Su-35? With his AL-41? This is all so conditional ...
    1. newcomer
      newcomer 31 January 2021 17: 26
      +8
      Somehow I had to read the opinions of unbiased western aviation experts who consider SU35 underestimated in expert circles and, if SU35 is not better, then at least equal to F22. SU57 is considered a transitional between the fifth and sixth generations_ 5 plus, i.e. above the fifth. But in general, I agree with you_ these generations are conditional.
      1. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 17: 42
        -6
        Quote: newbie
        Somehow I had to read the opinions of unbiased Western aviation experts, who consider SU35 to be underestimated in expert circles and


        Have you got any links to the article?
        1. newcomer
          newcomer 31 January 2021 17: 45
          +4
          Alas and ah. You can dig in the VO library, I think you will find something similar for anyone. I did not remember the links, but you can, if you wish, delve into the air sites. The opinions of the unbiased are not very popular.
        2. Zoldat_A
          Zoldat_A 31 January 2021 23: 07
          +1
          Quote: Eye of the Crying
          Quote: newbie
          Somehow I had to read the opinions of unbiased Western aviation experts, who consider SU35 to be underestimated in expert circles and


          Have you got any links to the article?

          https://topwar.ru/163450-amerikancy-o-boe-su-35-s-f-35-my-ne-znaem-srabotaet-li-stels.html 11 октября 2019г.
          The search engine searches for the original source "at once".
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 00: 03
            -3
            If we are talking about https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-su-35-real-killer-and-its-not-even-russias-best-fighter-jet-125516, then there is no statement that " Su-35 is at least equal to F-22 ". It says:" The Su-35 is at least equal — if not superior — to the very best Western fourth-generation fighters. "

            The conclusion is: "The Su-35 may be the best jet-age dogfighter ever made and a capable missile delivery platform — but whether that will suffice for an air-superiority fighter in the era of stealth technology remains to be seen."

            By the way, a reference simply to "F-15", without the letter in the name, gives out a real expert.
            1. newcomer
              newcomer 1 February 2021 01: 25
              +2
              Most experts, both engaged and realists, believe that the SU35 is superior to the Raptor in combat. The Yankees' bet on early target identification and long-range combat is almost completely unsuccessful, since the SU35 is a super-maneuverable machine, coupled with UHT engines, easily maneuvers away from missiles, using suppression systems. Plus, an infrared system for searching and tracking targets, allows DRY to keep situational control and to scare targets without using radar. Plus, despite the Raptor's farsightedness, SU35 successfully managed to avoid detection of the Predator by AFAR, including using its electronic warfare system. And the commander of the 95th Yankee squadron speaks unflatteringly about the F22 next to the SU35. For both meetings in the Syrian sky began and ended sadly for the Raptor: Drying was the first to detect the enemy and force them to leave. And equipping the SU35 with new hypersonic missiles of a long-range radius of 420 km completely deprives the Predator of illusions. F22 has zero chances at medium and short distances.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 01: 49
                -4
                Quote: newbie
                Most experts, both engaged and realists, believe that the SU35 is superior to the Raptor in combat.


                Where does this majority hang out? I would like to read them.

                Quote: newbie
                equipping SU35go with new hypersonic missiles of long range _ 420 km, completely deprives the "Predator" of illusions.


                Fantastic in another department.
                1. newcomer
                  newcomer 1 February 2021 07: 58
                  +1
                  Are you in general familiar with the topic, even if at the level of an amateur? Give you everything and unpack it, and fantasy is in the emptiness of your knowledge and interests.
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 1 February 2021 09: 45
                    -3
                    Quote: newbie
                    Are you in general familiar with the topic, even if at the level of an amateur?


                    I am familiar with the topic enough to know - the Su-57 radar simply will not see the Raptor at 420 km.
              2. Dread
                Dread 1 February 2021 04: 04
                -1
                Quote: newbie
                Plus, despite the Raptor's farsightedness, SU35 successfully avoided detection by AFAR "Predator" , including using its electronic warfare system.

                Newbie - while the F-22 reaches the launch line of its long-range AIM-120 air-to-air missile with a range of D = 180 km, it will be detected earlier by the N035 Irbis Su-35S radar at a distance of D ~ 224 km and destroyed by the R- missile 37M air - air with a range of D = 300 km. The US and NATO currently do not have air-to-air missiles with a range of more than
                200 km.
                1. newcomer
                  newcomer 1 February 2021 08: 00
                  0
                  You at least read my comment, il as the previous one, just to blurt out?
    2. FIR FIR
      FIR FIR 31 January 2021 17: 33
      +4
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      But this 5th generation fighter

      This is what the Chinese decided.
      Is he really such? Who can convincingly confirm or deny? Also - only Chinese fellow
    3. Crash
      Crash 31 January 2021 17: 38
      +3
      Well, each country castrated the initial requirements for a fifth-generation fighter. The United States has abandoned super-maneuverability (like they don't need it), cruising supersonic doesn't work. And in general, at supersonic, everything falls apart yes We have the main problem with stealth, the stake is made precisely on super-maneuverability. The Chinese follow the path of the Americans, but the engines are still in trouble ...
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 17: 50
        +11
        Quote: Crasher
        We have the main problem with stealth, the stake is made precisely on super-maneuverability.

        I personally think that ours did everything right.
        Detection tools are being improved all the time. That is, today there is inconspicuousness, but tomorrow it’s fucking, and it’s not there. And super-maneuverability will always be super-maneuverability.
        There is still a long way to go before laser weapons capable of shooting down planes. And before such a weapon with the specified characteristics, which could be placed on the fighter even further.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 18: 23
          -4
          Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
          There is still a long way to go before laser weapons capable of shooting down planes.


          And to laser weapons capable of interfering with air-to-air missiles is much closer.
          1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
            Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 18: 54
            +2
            Quote: Eye of the Crying
            And to laser weapons capable of interfering with air-to-air missiles is much closer.

            But even this is not yet available, and is not expected.
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 18: 57
              -5
              Not yet, but research is ongoing.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 31 January 2021 20: 07
              0
              In Israel, it is already serially installed on civilian liners and military
              transport workers. Not on fighters yet, because it is quite large
              hanging container.
              1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 20: 16
                -1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                In Israel, it is already serially installed on civilian liners and military
                transport workers. Not on fighters yet, because it is quite large
                hanging container.

                Not suitable for a combat aircraft, as it must be integrated into the hull.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 31 January 2021 20: 18
                  0
                  It is planned to insert such a laser into the next Block F-35.
                  ---
                  The B-21 Raider will definitely have a defensive laser
                  weapon
                  1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                    Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 20: 30
                    -1
                    Probably instead of course guns? What power? How will they be guided? What is the defeat time?
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 31 January 2021 20: 49
                      -1
                      There are no particular details. Americans are now experiencing
                      two options: on the F-16 suspended and on the C-130 built into the fuselage.
                      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                        Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 20: 56
                        0
                        Hercules is transport. What's more interesting is what they came up with for Lightning 2.
                        You yourself wrote that the next block for the F-35 will have such a weapon.
                        It turns out that there is no data for Lightning, there is only for F-16 and Hercules. And this, you see, is a completely different story.
                      2. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh 31 January 2021 21: 01
                        0
                        I read about the F-35 that they use part of the space for the fan
                        (version A has an additional fuel tank) for the laser (or battery /
                        supercapacitor?). And the drive for recharging is from the engine.
                      3. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                        Sidor Amenpodestovich 31 January 2021 21: 09
                        0
                        It turns out, a reduction in the radius of action, an increase in mass. Even some rearrangement.
                      4. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh 31 January 2021 21: 39
                        -1
                        Probably instead of a cannon with shells? The mass will remain approximately
                        same. If the laser is slightly more powerful, then it can be used in
                        close combat. By drones, helicopters. Transport workers (blow to the cockpit). To save rockets.
                  2. Dodikson
                    Dodikson 31 January 2021 21: 07
                    +2
                    maybe I misunderstood him. but as far as I know, so far, lasers are used in BKO to blind missiles with IR seeker.
                    they have not yet learned how to destroy the missiles themselves.
                    and for dazzling they use ours, in the same Vitebsk and even in KAZ for Armata (Afghanite protects the upper hemisphere only through KOEP).
        2. poquello
          poquello 1 February 2021 01: 07
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          In Israel, it is already serially installed on civilian liners and military
          transport workers. Not on fighters yet, because it is quite large
          hanging container.

          and what does it bring down? spikes have tilivisers?
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 31 January 2021 17: 53
    -5
    Quote: Crasher
    the initial requirements for a fifth generation fighter, each country castrated for itself


    Were there any "initial" requirements?
    1. Crash
      Crash 31 January 2021 18: 05
      +2
      In general, there were. Long ago, the Americans themselves formulated it. Too lazy to look for where. I can only refer to the wiki, but this is so-so source winked
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F#%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BA_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8E_%D0%BF%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F
    2. Tsoy
      Tsoy 31 January 2021 18: 57
      0
      Were there any "initial" requirements?

      There were. ATF program. Super maneuverability, stealth, cruising supersonic. Result F-22. Everything that appeared after the raptor only partially meets these requirements, each country has its own vision of the best fighter.

      And the Chinese make little sense to rejoice. Well done, they caught up with the performance characteristics of the aircraft being developed in the 80s-90s of the last century. The gap is only 20 years.
      1. ironic
        ironic 31 January 2021 20: 23
        -9
        This is incorrect because real supersonic is considered from 1.25M, so there are graters on the topic of cruising 1.2M, but there is no afterburner cruising itself.
  • ironic
    ironic 31 January 2021 20: 21
    -8
    Already in his top ten he flies for two years.
  • Eroma
    Eroma 31 January 2021 17: 31
    0
    In fact, nothing is known about this plane! recourse design like a stealth aircraft. But does the material properties match stealth technology? The cockpit canopy is not covered with any gilding to heighten the stealth effect! The Hindus say they easily tracked the J20 with dryers' radars.
    Chinese avionics in the West is praised and even ranked higher than Russian. But honestly, for some reason I am tormented by murky doubts No. although this may be prejudice recourse
    But the engines that do not give a cruiser supersonic, and even not their own.
    In short, maybe the Chinese are right about the 4th generation for this aircraft, with +++++ probably fellow
    1. Dodikson
      Dodikson 31 January 2021 18: 29
      +1
      in fact, and rzhaka, the Chinese (and Indians, too) wrote that the PAK FA that they say he is not a real fifth generation because the engines of the first stage do not give out cruising supersonic (which by the way is a lie), and at the same time they consider their J20 the fifth generation in which the engines are even worse than the engines of the first stage of the PAK FA.
      they would have to take off the cross or wear panties, but they are not Christians.
      1. ironic
        ironic 31 January 2021 20: 24
        -5
        That the castati is true only 1.1M at low altitude and that's it. Those. with this, Penguin is even much better. But no one knows for sure what the third version of the Chinese top ten is.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 21: 15
      +2
      Quote: Eroma
      Hindus say

      To believe Hindus is not to respect yourself. Be careful there, until you have a bunch of Hindu relatives.
      1. Eroma
        Eroma 31 January 2021 22: 21
        0
        Do you doubt the capabilities of Su30 radars? wink it's not patriotic! laughing
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 22: 27
          0
          Quote: Eroma
          Do you doubt the capabilities of Su30 radars? it's not patriotic!

          Indians and all sorts of other Africans studied with us. I did not communicate with Africans, but I have never seen anyone dumber than Indians. crying
  • Alien From
    Alien From 31 January 2021 17: 43
    +1
    In the photo tandem) this is the tenth generation laughing
    1. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 31 January 2021 23: 12
      +1
      Quote: Alien From
      In the photo tandem) this is the tenth generation laughing

      I also thought about it. Such EXACTLY no one else.
      1. Alien From
        Alien From 31 January 2021 23: 37
        +1
        Comrades Xi and Trump)
  • semuil
    semuil 31 January 2021 18: 43
    +1
    Apart from the Chinese, no one is particularly impressed by this "miracle".
  • rocket757
    rocket757 31 January 2021 18: 52
    +1
    The sandpiper / frog croaks beyond measure ....
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 31 January 2021 20: 02
    +2
    You can criticize China. China can be praised. But I'm looking at something else. WHERE was China in 1991, and where is it now, 30 years later. And then I compare where Russia / the USSR was in 1991, and where it is now. Just compare how many Migs 29x FLY and how many J10x FLIES. Well, or compare how many SU-57 FLYs and how many J20x FLIES (and how many F22x FLIES), just compare the number and who achieved what. And somehow I don't want to compare anything else. You can see where the United States was in 1991, and what it has degraded into now. The comparison will also be in favor of China. The Chinese are great. They rolled their Maidanists / navalnat / antifa into the asphalt with tanks, all sorts of terrorists / Uighurs, the equivalent of the supporters of "Independent Ichkeria" were jailed in camps, and immediately things went ahead. By the way, if a politician were caught in China on the same thing that Biden and his son are doing, then I don't think that such a politician would remain at large for a long time.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 21: 18
      +2
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      The Chinese are great. They rolled their Maidanists into the asphalt / piled up /

      They just rolled the Democrats.
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 31 January 2021 21: 48
        +1
        They rolled their 5th column into the asphalt. What Russia, unfortunately, did not want to do. The result is obvious. By the way, the United States also indulge all sorts of Antifam, BLM and others like them. The result will be sad for the United States. All hostile elements are like CANCER. They need to be cut and burned. It is one thing when a person points out the corruption or negligence of a particular bureaucratic / officials, another thing when he deals with baseless accusations and, for some reason, where such elements have good money from and calls for the destruction / rewriting of history and for the overthrow of the regime. Nothing good will shine for you, in Russia, or for us, in the United States, if our governments are unhappy with hostile, undesirable subversive elements. The question is what language to learn? Chinese or Arabic?
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 22: 28
          +1
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          The question is what language to learn? Chinese or Arabic?

          Kalashnikov assault rifle.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 31 January 2021 20: 12
    -1
    Fig knows him. What are the Chinese Armed Forces - a secret sealed with seven seals. They have no combat experience, but what does it lead to ... Well, for example, the Yankees in WWI have entered the nodding distribution, Germany is already bled. The troops at the mattresses are fresh. not frightened yet, packed at the very least, the enemy is already half dead ... And so they broke the striped ones, only there was a crunch! And exactly the same picture was repeated in the same place in WWII. And all why? There are ammunition, the people are sea, and they fought only with the savages with a numerical superiority.
    So China ... It is not known what is there. Yes, and it is doubtful that this fighter would change someone's plans
  • Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 31 January 2021 20: 44
    0
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Well, they don't have a flight school, whatever one may say.

    whatever one may say, well, they do not have a flight school.

    Unfolded the thought. What's next? laughing
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 21: 20
      +3
      Quote: Lord of the Sith
      Unfolded the thought.

      I do not see a reversal of thought. But I see how we buy AN-2 from the Chinese.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 31 January 2021 21: 28
      -1
      Incidentally, this is the school of Chinese flight attendants.

  • Soveticos
    Soveticos 31 January 2021 21: 18
    -2
    I wouldn't be surprised if this plane starts to fall apart in a couple of years. It's still not smartphones and laptops to collect as a carbon copy and more or less add something of their own (in the bulk of unnecessary).
    1. poquello
      poquello 1 February 2021 00: 59
      +2
      Quote: Soveticos
      I wouldn't be surprised if this plane starts to fall apart in a couple of years. It's still not smartphones and laptops to collect as a carbon copy and more or less add something of their own (in the bulk of unnecessary).

      IMHO, for the longest time, the Chinese learned to shove the insides of phones neatly into the box of the case, which did not prevent them from experimenting with the elements and, in the end, getting nokia, motorola and other brands. It will be really more difficult with aviation, in it there are still more fundamental sciences than an assembly designer.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 31 January 2021 23: 03
    +1
    Quote: Aerodrome
    but they still have more opportunities in microelectronics

    China has many other opportunities growing.
    for example, it is a leader in the extraction, and soon the use of rare earth materials in technology.
    It was this feature that allowed the USSR to compete with the United States.
    In addition, China has already created an experimental base and is constantly building up its scientific base. After some time, they will be able to create their own high-quality developments.
    Another important advantage of China is that it has practically equal opportunities with the United States to invest in new projects, but at the same time they can choose from objective reasons, without politics.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 1 February 2021 11: 02
    0
    Quote: Cowbra
    Fig knows him. What are the Chinese Armed Forces - a secret sealed with seven seals. They have no combat experience, but what does this lead to ...

    Of course, the Chinese are subhuman and aviation is inaccessible to them (once the Reich Fuhrer spoke of the Russians). All the same, they have much more combat experience against the United States (Korea, Vietnam) than Russia.
  • wow
    wow 1 February 2021 18: 16
    -1
    They (the Chinese) are very good copywriters. In everything. But, further, something breakthrough is beyond their ability, obviously. Rip off, lick, pull off, add a couple of extra "nuts", yes! And the presence of an agromous population, even in the distant past, despite the fact that one (the Chinese) even allegedly invented gunpowder, somehow did not help them even once. For some reason, they lost all the wars of that time with a bang, to less small nations. In general, the point is not in the number of sewn room slippers and "licked" cars, but still in the quality of brains.