Military Review

"Varan" against "Manatee": what will be the Russian aircraft carrier of the new generation

234

Replace cannot be left



Despite the obvious successes of Russian shipbuilding (in particular, the transfer the fleet last year, the second frigate of project 22350 "Fleet Admiral Kasatonov" and the laying of the first universal landing ships), the main problem is in no hurry to leave the agenda. You can argue as much as you like about the prospects of the hypersonic "Zircon", compare it with Western counterparts, talk about carriers, and so on. However, it is obvious that this complex will not fundamentally change the balance of power. As before, aircraft carriers will remain the "first violin" in tactical terms. Replacing them with frigates or destroyers with missile weapons will be (if) "insofar as".

Even if we assume that the range of a promising hypersonic missile is 1000 kilometers (according to other sources - from 400 to 600 kilometers), this still does not give a decisive advantage over the deck aviation, carrying anti-ship missiles of the AGM-158C LRASM type, with such or even greater range. We also note that the carrier strike group has a flexibility of use that cannot be compared with anything else.

Speaking of the Russian Navy, everything is unchanged here: the country, as before, will rely on "Admiral Kuznetsov"... After the fire that occurred on board in 2019, rumors often appeared about the decommissioning of the ship, but, as far as can be judged, they do not correspond to the truth. The reason the problematic aircraft-carrying heavy cruiser will continue to serve is trivial: there is currently nothing to replace the ship with. The above-mentioned UDC are helicopter carriers and cannot be considered as a substitute for it. In December, a shipbuilding source said that sea trials of the upgraded aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov should begin in 2022. Most likely, this is close to the truth.


Source: mil.ru

Alas, the modernization does not solve key conceptual problems, such as the lack of a launch catapult, a relatively small air group and, therefore, vulnerability to air attacks. It is not surprising that projects of new aircraft carriers are periodically proposed in Russia. The projects are very different.

Aircraft carrier of project 23000 "Storm"


"Varan" against "Manatee": what will be the Russian aircraft carrier of the new generation
Photo: Wikipedia, Artem Tkachenko

Features:

Displacement: up to 100 thousand tons;
Length: 330 meters;
Width: 40 meters;
Travel speed: 30 knots;
Navigation range: unlimited;
Swimming autonomy: 120 days;
Crew: 4000-5000 people;
Aviation group: up to 90 aircraft, including the carrier-based version of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter.

The model of this ship was shown to specialists in closed mode as part of the international naval show in St. Petersburg in 2013. The general public was able to see her at the Army-2015 International Military-Technical Forum.

Judging by the size and potential of the ship, its concept, in general, fits into the concept of a "supercarrier": that is, a conditional analogue of American "Nimitz" and "Gerald R. Ford", which can also carry up to 90 aircraft. On the flight deck of the Russian ship, there are four launch positions: it is supposed to use four electromagnetic catapults. The landing of the aircraft will be provided by one aerofinisher. It is known that they want to equip the Shtorm with RITM-200 nuclear reactors: the same was chosen for the Arctic icebreaker.

In the spring of 2016, it became known about the possibility of building a promising ship at the facilities of the Far Eastern Zvezda plant, but since then information on the promising aircraft carrier has practically not appeared in the public domain.

Aircraft carrier of project 11430E "Manatee"



Source: Wikipedia.org

Features:

Displacement: 80-90 thousand tons;
Length: 350 meters;
Travel speed: 30 knots;
Autonomy: 120 days;
Crew: 2800 people, the air group should include 800 people;
Aviation group: up to 60 airplanes and helicopters, including airborne radio detection and guidance systems.

In July, TASS reported that the Nevsky Design Bureau, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, presented a project of a new aircraft carrier with the original name "Manatee" at the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg. According to the plans, the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier should receive a springboard, two electromagnetic catapults and four aerofinishers. Aviation ammunition ranges from 1600 to 2000 tons of ammunition and aircraft weapons.

Attention is drawn to the appearance of the ship. It is difficult to say what exactly this is connected with, but it is easy for a non-professional person to confuse an aircraft carrier with the above-mentioned TAVKR "Admiral Kuznetsov", which can hardly be called successful in the full sense of the word. It is also noteworthy that the developers did not "fantasize" about the deck version of the fifth generation: judging by the layout, the ship will be able to carry deck versions of MiG-29 and Su-27 (Su-33?) Fighters. Of course, such an air group in the XNUMXst century can hardly be called fully modern. Obviously, the issue of creating a fifth-generation carrier-based fighter will be no less "interesting" than the actual development of the new ship itself.

Despite all the differences between the projects "Storm" and "Manatee", there is one aspect that makes them in common: the almost complete lack of information in the media.

Aircraft carrier "Varan"



Photo: JSC "Nevskoe Design Bureau"

Features:

Displacement: approximately 45 thousand tons;
Length: 250 meters;
Width: 65 meters;
Travel speed: up to 26 knots;
Navigation range: unlimited;
Aviation group: 24 multipurpose aircraft, six helicopters and up to 20 UAVs.

The last known project of a promising Russian aircraft carrier is the Varan universal naval ship (UMK) presented by the Nevsky Design Bureau in the new year. Judging by the image, the carrier-based version of the MiG-29 is seen as the basis of the air group. There are no other reliable data to date.

The aircraft carrier is significantly smaller than the previously presented samples. In general, over time, the size and capabilities of promising Russian aircraft carriers became smaller and smaller. Obviously, this can be viewed as a reflection of the objective economic realities of the Navy and the state as a whole.

It is difficult to say whether this or that project will get a start in life. Today, the likelihood of another "deep" modernization of the TAVKR "Admiral Kuznetsov" in the future is much higher than the construction of any of the aircraft carriers presented.

One of the most important problems is the complexity of international cooperation in this area, aggravated by the sanctions pressure of the West and the difficulty in accessing new technologies. Nevertheless, as mentioned above, the presence (or absence) of full-fledged aircraft carriers dramatically affects the combat capability of the entire Navy. And this means that the topic will not be off the agenda soon: if it ever happens in the future.
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  1. Brylevsky
    Brylevsky 1 February 2021 05: 50
    +85
    what will be the Russian aircraft carrier of the new generation

    “Hello, dear guys and dear fellow adults. The TV show "Visiting a Fairy Tale" is on the air ...
    1. Alien From
      Alien From 1 February 2021 06: 00
      +21
      We were born to make a fairy tale come true ...) unfortunately with regard to aircraft carriers, this is sarcasm ...
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 1 February 2021 06: 12
      +38
      Quote: Brylevsky
      what will be the Russian aircraft carrier of the new generation

      “Hello, dear guys and dear fellow adults. The TV show "Visiting a Fairy Tale" is on the air ...

      Exactly.
      However, it is obvious that this complex will not fundamentally change the balance of power. As before, aircraft carriers will remain the "first violin" in tactical terms.

      The "first violin" will remain a clear naval strategy, a strategy for the development of the fleet. While she's gone, what's the point of having an aircraft carrier? After all, an aircraft carrier is not a goal, but a means of achieving tasks at sea ...
      1. bayard
        bayard 1 February 2021 09: 02
        +32
        So after all, in the Aerospace Forces, too, the strategy is not very good, albeit better than in the Navy. There are purchases of fighters, but there were no AWACS aircraft, and no. There are not enough fuel tankers, even for Long-Range Aviation. Specialized aircraft: RTR, PLO, RTP, patrolmen, etc. ... although Tu-214 was chosen as the main platform for such aircraft, for the construction of which no sanctions interfere ...
        Strategy is the lot of independent, sovereign powers.
        And so far, ideology is prohibited in our country.
        And without an idea, what is the strategy? request
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 1 February 2021 23: 06
          +3
          And so far, ideology is prohibited in our country.
          And without an idea, what is the strategy?

          What is the official ideology of the USA, France, Britain?
          How does its absence interfere with setting the goals of the fleet development?
          GDP once said "patriotism is our ideology" request
          1. bayard
            bayard 2 February 2021 02: 47
            +12
            Quote: 3danimal
            GDP once said "patriotism is our ideology"

            This is not an ideology, but a state of mind.
            And the GDP said a lot of things, incl. about the inadmissibility of raising the retirement age.
            And about 25 million new jobs in high-tech industries.
            And about the average level of per capita tax by 2020.
            Everyone can talk.
            It's time to do something and make from the promised.
            "20 years is a long time ...".
            It's time to take stock and check them against your promises.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 2 February 2021 04: 35
              +5
              And GDP said a lot

              I agree, it was a kind of irony good
              It's time to take stock and check them against your promises.

              They will say that sanctions, crisis, comet flyby are to blame. They will pull out a couple of facts from the area where it has become a little better. Some people have succeeded in excuses smile
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 2 February 2021 19: 41
                0
                Ilya posed an interesting question! Perhaps no one will answer him now. Even those who could. And now even they DO NOT know what they will decide. Probably, exactly what will happen in 10-20 years only that gypsy from the fable knows ... lol
            2. frog
              frog 2 February 2021 10: 58
              0
              It's time to take stock and check them against your promises.

              Which volume are you interested in?
          2. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 2 February 2021 16: 29
            +6
            What is the official ideology of the United States


            American Exceptionalism
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 2 February 2021 18: 53
              -1
              It is formalized in the form of laws, are there articles for violating the "party line", political prisoners?
              In reality, there are a lot of different people with very different views.
              Yes, they are more closed on themselves, there is almost no news about us there. Which is unfair compared to the time spent by the United States on Russian TV channels.
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 2 February 2021 21: 49
                +3
                It is formalized in the form of laws, are there articles for violating the "party line", political prisoners?


                Obstruction for violating the party line is quite there, the rest will slowly arrive.

                In reality, there are a lot of different people with very different views.


                This is true even for the DPRK

                there is almost no news about us. Which is unfair compared to the time the United States spends on Russian TV channels.


                Because they actively and successfully harm us, but we do not.
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 3 February 2021 01: 03
                  +1
                  Obstruction for violating the party line is quite there, the rest will slowly arrive.

                  It differs somewhat from the "political" articles in the same USSR, don't you find.
                  Pressure from communities, but not from governments.
                  There is no ideology enshrined in law and supported by punitive bodies. And trying to pass off the ideas existing in their society (which are more convenient) for her is wrong.
                  we don't.

                  Chapman, Butina - aren't they our heroines?
                  Dealing with Solar Wings?
                  Because they actively and successfully harm us

                  I know people who were sincerely happy with the latest news (as we ... did!) About Solar Wings.
                  Another thing is that we have very different political and financial weight: they can create noticeable problems in the economy, worsen the life of many officials and oligarchs (greedy for housing and recreation in the European Union or the United States), but we do not. Their officials do not go to rest in Sochi, do not buy housing on Rublevka (the budget does not allow request ).
                  The closure of Intel on the Moscow Stock Exchange will hardly affect the stock price, and the closure (even temporary) of RusAl on the London Stock Exchange - and the rate falls by 2 times.
                  The capitalization ratio explains the reasons:

                  (Moscow MOEX, New York NYSE, London LSE, Hong Kong HKEX, Madrid BMEX).
                  I think that the difference in TV time of each other is also due to a certain longing for the times when the Union was superpower number 2. Now only China can claim this role, there are no prerequisites to "catch up and overtake" it here. Which, again, is upsetting.
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 3 February 2021 01: 47
                    -1
                    Solar Winds
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 3 February 2021 01: 50
                      0
                      Attention! smile
                      (And so and so the norm sounds)
                      1. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 3 February 2021 01: 54
                        -1
                        Solar Winds is a specific firm that has been hacked and further infiltrated. On the question of the delights of SaaS.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 3 February 2021 06: 24
                        0
                        That's right, I made a mistake by one letter.
            2. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 3 February 2021 01: 52
              +1
              Quote: 3danimal
              It is formalized in the form of laws, are there articles for violating the "party line", political prisoners?


              Of course not. In general, calling "American exceptionalism" the official ideology is like calling the "special Russian way" the official ideology of Russia.
        2. Misha Honest
          Misha Honest 3 February 2021 12: 54
          -1
          Quote: 3danimal
          What is the official ideology of the USA, France, Britain?

          Rob, rape, kill ... other countries.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 3 February 2021 15: 18
            -1
            Rob, rape, kill ... other countries.

            Give the laws and articles where these postulates are spelled out?
            Do not build a picture of the world based on the materials of the Izborsk Club.
            1. Maikcg
              Maikcg 22 March 2021 04: 00
              0
              Over the 20th century, 110 (if I haven't lost count) full-fledged military operations, war, intervention, occupation, invasion, suppression, together with the CIA and you. as a rule, white and fluffy usa acts as an aggressor, carrying the burden of a white man to all savages.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 26 March 2021 04: 46
                +1
                Over the 20th century, 110 (if I haven't lost count) full-fledged military operations, war, intervention, occupation, invasion, suppression, together with the CIA and you.

                You can dig up something comparable to the USSR.
                Let me remind you that about a million people died in Afghanistan. Then it was called "international assistance" ...
                Is it possible on this basis to declare that the above-mentioned slogan applies to the Union?
                Big countries have their own interests.
                But the main income of the United States is not from the sale / resale of resources.
                The structure of their exports (about $ 2 trillion) is by no means secret.
                1. Maikcg
                  Maikcg 27 March 2021 06: 00
                  0
                  Dig up, the same period of the 20th century.
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 27 March 2021 09: 12
                    0
                    I mean that "rob, force, kill" - purely emotions and has little to do with objectivity.
                    Words from the category that the United States is rich only due to the robbery of all other countries.
                    1. Maikcg
                      Maikcg 28 March 2021 00: 28
                      0
                      As one gentleman used to say, "with a kind word and a pistol" (c). After all, you can rob in different ways, it is not necessary to carry boxes from under the copier, as happened with our fools. Now, thanks to the pistol, which is demonstrated annually, the USA has a lever of pressure. It’s just that the sheikhs buy billions of military hardware, but they can’t cope with the Houthis.
                    2. 3danimal
                      3danimal 28 March 2021 02: 29
                      +1
                      Selling weapons is about stats and marketing.
                      Superpower status is also a plus. The fleet (of 70 ships of URO rank 1) is attached, not to mention AB. Newport News and colleagues build well and quickly.
                      And for the F-35 program, new plants were simply (and quickly) erected.
                      Other features request
                      You can rob in different ways

                      They robbed me the other day: they took a laptop with an Intel processor and an NVidia video chip. American GI kept aiming until I left the store smile
                      And the friends took Coca-Cola to the cognac. And they were robbed ..
                      Guess you have a Qualcomm processor and Google OS in your phone?
  2. kalibr
    kalibr 1 February 2021 09: 06
    -7
    Quote: Doccor18
    and a means of achieving objectives at sea ...

    A bucket of Siberian diamonds for every admiral of the US Navy and an account in an offshore bank does not need any aircraft carriers.
    1. Nick rex
      Nick rex 1 February 2021 14: 17
      +6
      You don’t have so many diamonds and money will not help you. Not everything is bought and sold. But it’s likely that you (as a whole, as a society) have changed your consciousness so much that you cannot even realize this, in general, that simple thing.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 1 February 2021 15: 39
        +7
        Quote: Nick Rex
        You don’t have so many diamonds and money will not help you. Not everything is bought and sold. But it’s likely that you (as a whole, as a society) have changed your consciousness so much that you cannot even realize this, in general, that simple thing.

        If not everything is bought and sold in the West, then there are very good representatives of the ruling classes there, and we are constantly being told that "it is rotting" and all around there are "blue". So the concepts of honor and decency are still alive there? But let's remember the events of the war in Iraq ... then the Americans simply bought the Iraqi generals and the soldiers abandoned by them could not offer resistance. Or was it wrong? But our press also wrote about this. And yes, I personally don't have that many diamonds, but the state has them! And buying admirals (as well as generals and senators!) Is much more profitable than burying money in scrap metal. In 1991, all our tanks and missiles of the USSR were not saved!
        1. Nikon OConor
          Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 18: 34
          0
          If not everything is bought and sold in the West, then there are very good representatives of the ruling classes there, but we are constantly being told that "it is rotting" and all around there are "blue". So the concepts of honor and decency are still alive there?

          No, it's just that what is a bucket of diamonds compared to the annual US military budget? A bucket of diamonds will not give power, but access to the distribution of such a pie gives both money and power.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 1 February 2021 18: 37
            +3
            You don't know people well, Alexey. And not even people, but the wives of generals ...
            1. Nikon OConor
              Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 18: 42
              0
              maybe yes. But I know very well one wife of a general (retired first assistant to the chief military prosecutor of the Russian Federation (now assistant to the prime minister, retired lieutenant general Shevchenko I.V.) - she is my own aunt. Believe me, neither he nor she reasons to think so badly of myself never Even more, as far back as I can remember (from the age of 4-5) Uncle Igor for me was an example of a true Russian officer.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 1 February 2021 18: 46
                +2
                Quote: Nikon OConor
                Believe me, neither he nor she has never given reasons to think so badly

                So we're not talking about true Russian officers. They are, of course, all knights without fear or reproach. And about American, British, French in the form in which they are presented to us by our Russian sources of information. Or am I writing something wrong? And our overseas partners are shown as honest, deeply decent people loyal to their country and people? If this is actually the case, then let's build an aircraft carrier ...
                1. Nikon OConor
                  Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 08
                  -2
                  Yes, somehow I am in doubt)) If you judge by the principle of want / don't want - then give two (or three) !!! But there really is nowhere to keep them, Murmansk? I strongly doubt that in order to contain the AUG from the port city, you need to make such a fort so that they did not even think to break through its defenses, otherwise it is just a target for special forces and soup with ships (as they have already expressed here). IMHO
                  1. frog
                    frog 2 February 2021 11: 00
                    0
                    According to rumors))), the basing of our "elephants" there seems to have been provided. From only .... far from good. well, the uncles did not want to hang around in these ....... places))
                2. Grencer81
                  Grencer81 2 February 2021 19: 08
                  0
                  It looks like the propaganda of the SA GlavPUR is deeply rooted in the brains of some "comrade officers" if they still believe that generals and admirals of the countries of a potential enemy can be bought in bulk for buckets of diamonds.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 2 February 2021 04: 38
            0
            A bucket of diamonds will not give power, but access to the distribution of such a pie gives both money and power.

            The legality of income is extremely important. If a general has a large sum out of nowhere, big purchases, questions will immediately arise and all this can be lost at once. And lose your freedom, your reputation. More dear to yourself.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 2 February 2021 19: 34
              +1
              Quote: 3danimal
              The legality of income is extremely important. If a general has a large sum out of nowhere, big purchases, questions will immediately arise and all this can be lost at once. And lose your freedom, your reputation. More dear to yourself.

              All this is done very easily. As you described, of course, doing it is stupid, but there are other, "smart" ways ("bucket" is a figurative expression). The same can be done ... without drawing attention.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 1 February 2021 20: 45
          +6
          "then the Americans simply bought the Iraqi generals" ///
          ----
          Bribed a couple of Generals of the General Staff.
          But the commanders of the National Guard divisions fought properly.
          They were defeated in fierce battles.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 1 February 2021 20: 46
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            Bribed a couple of Generals of the General Staff.

            A couple was enough ... Even one might be enough ...
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 1 February 2021 20: 52
              +5
              It all depends on the resistance of the commanders on the ground.
              When Hitler planned to attack Switzerland,
              thought to land a surprise landing, capture the General Staff and force
              captured generals declare surrender.
              But the Swiss gave the order: the commanders of companies, battalions,
              brigades not to obey the orders of their General Staff if
              orders will call for an end to resistance
              under any pretext.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 1 February 2021 20: 57
                +1
                I know this story, but ... secretly managing the right people is also a very effective thing. Sun Tzu wrote about this ... What is there to argue about ...
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 1 February 2021 21: 43
                  0
                  The story of the bribery of several commanders is often indicated in the light that, they say, the Iraqi army did not fight (but if it had fought, it would have given the Americans for nuts! Zhirinovsky promised smile ).
                  Thus, trying to belittle the combat capability, armament and organization of the US Armed Forces, for example, in the context of a possible conflict with Iran.
            2. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 2 February 2021 16: 30
              +3
              Can you give an example when the battle with the Americans was lost because of such a betrayal?
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alf
      Alf 1 February 2021 19: 28
      +5
      Quote: kalibr
      One bucket of Siberian diamonds for each admiral of the US fleet and an account with an offshore bank

      Our "elite" will find a more beneficial use for this bucket and especially for the bank account
      and placement ...
    3. psiho117
      psiho117 1 February 2021 22: 15
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      One bucket of Siberian diamonds for each admiral

      Wow, the moderator's chaos has arrived - by what right was my comment removed?
      Is this lobbying for the interests of the De Beers corporation? Already about them and a word cannot be said, or what?
      People, how can you complain about the moderator?
  • Civil
    Civil 1 February 2021 06: 48
    +1
    No money ... let's cry and move on
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 1 February 2021 07: 25
      +7
      Quote: Civil
      No money...

      But hold on! © D. A. Medvedev
    2. kig
      kig 1 February 2021 09: 46
      +11
      Quote: Civil
      No money..

      no planes ... no pilots ... no escort ... and even more electromagnetic catapults.
    3. bayard
      bayard 1 February 2021 13: 36
      +9
      Quote: Civil
      No money...

      Whatever the rake teaches, but the heart believes in miracles ...
      And I'm more interested in how the installation of the power plant on the "Admiral Golovko" is going?
      Afloat .
      When not even a crane of suitable lifting capacity was found on the shore, the floating crane had to be connected ...
      The floating crane is afloat, the frigate is afloat ... The accuracy is phenomenal ... after loading, probably with a couple of dozen jacks, each element has to be set.
      But I wish good luck to the performers, we need the ship, albeit again with a delay of a year and a half because of this circus.
  • novel66
    novel66 2 February 2021 16: 39
    -1
    pink snot, blue drool
  • Vladislav Trofimov
    Vladislav Trofimov 6 February 2021 07: 04
    +1
    tales from shoigu ...
  • Pavel73
    Pavel73 20 February 2021 10: 36
    0
    The aircraft carrier will have to be done, like it or not. Another thing is that you need to know the measure. And, of course, do not swing at any "Storm" and "Manatees".
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 1 February 2021 05: 52
    +26
    There will be many more pictures and layouts.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 1 February 2021 06: 16
      +3
      Quote: Pessimist22
      There will be many more pictures and layouts.

      Interesting - how much are such models?
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 1 February 2021 09: 07
        +2
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Interesting - how much are such models?

        An acquaintance of mine does such things ... Builds a house from cylindrical beams in three floors with a billiard room on the third!
        1. pmkemcity
          pmkemcity 1 February 2021 09: 11
          +4
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: pmkemcity
          Interesting - how much are such models?

          An acquaintance of mine does such things ... Builds a house from cylindrical beams in three floors with a billiard room on the third!

          Yes! Papier-mâché is a little expensive now!
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 1 February 2021 11: 24
        +8
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Interesting - how much are such models?

        By estimate or really? wink
        In fact, the 11430E is a slightly revised model of the Soviet 11437.
        1. pmkemcity
          pmkemcity 1 February 2021 12: 02
          +5
          Quote: Alexey RA
          By estimate or really?
          In fact, the 11430E is a slightly revised model of the Soviet 11437.

          Probably the "model" plant has already been opened. Yunates x ... new!
        2. Cympak
          Cympak 1 February 2021 16: 34
          +5
          In fact, they took Project 1143.7 "Ulyanovsk" and replaced the old superstructure (ala TAKR "Kuznetsov") with a new one with an enlarged tower IBMK MF RLK "Zaslon"
    2. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 1 February 2021 06: 23
      +3
      The model of this ship was shown to specialists in a closed mode as part of the international naval show in St. Petersburg in 2013.
      The main thing - they showed! recourse
  • Dante Alighieri
    Dante Alighieri 1 February 2021 06: 02
    +13
    ... what the next generation Russian aircraft carrier will look like

    Concrete in the Gelendzhinsky Empire style. wassat Although, most likely, it will not come to this and he will simply remain DRAWED. laughing
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 1 February 2021 06: 02
    +2
    The "Manatee" has a combination of the take-off and landing deck archaism is completely inappropriate.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 1 February 2021 11: 27
      +2
      I'm wondering what kind of black aircraft (similar to turntables) on "Varana" ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 1 February 2021 11: 44
        +6
        Quote: PSih2097
        I'm wondering what kind of black aircraft (similar to turntables) on the "Varana".

        Yes, probably from the same store the models as the green ones (even more similar to turntables) in front of the island. ))
  • Crowe
    Crowe 1 February 2021 06: 12
    +13
    Speaking of the Russian Navy, everything is unchanged here.

    Here everything is according to the leftover principle - “why do we need a fleet, we are a land power.” And the fact that we have 38 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 06: 28
      -7
      Quote: Crowe
      And the fact that we have 38 807 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.

      Don't write nonsense. The Baltic and the Black Sea are puddles where aircraft carriers are not needed in principle. As for the Arctic and the Pacific Ocean, almost all of the northern and eastern coasts of Russia are freezing, that is, they, in principle, are not suitable for basing a fleet. The exceptions are the non-freezing section of the Kola Peninsula in the Barents Sea and Avacha Bay, where the main forces of the Russian Navy are based. That is, Russia has a meager number of convenient non-freezing bays and bays for basing an ocean-going fleet. Do you really think that the coasts of Novaya Zemlya, Taimyr, Yakutia, Yamal, Chukotka and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk are suitable for basing a fleet?
      1. Crowe
        Crowe 1 February 2021 06: 38
        +11
        It’s your prerogative to write nonsense. To listen to such clever people, we don’t need a fleet or an army, there’s no problem. And the fact that they were not used in any military conflict is not taken into account by you.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 06: 40
          -6
          If you are not writing nonsense, then answer the above question:
          Do you really think that the coasts of Novaya Zemlya, Taimyr, Yakutia, Yamal, Chukotka and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk are suitable for basing a fleet?
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 1 February 2021 08: 46
            +3
            they are such slogans. They don't require proof or thinking. But they collect likes well. it's time for likes and hype, not arguments. So don't ask unnecessarily No.
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2021 09: 21
            +22
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            If you are not writing nonsense, then answer the above question

            The answer is extremely simple. With what happiness suddenly the usefulness and necessity of the fleet began to be measured by the number of places of its possible basing? And if there are not enough places like this, then why will fewer Tomahawks fly to us from the water area of ​​the Barents Sea if we abandon the fleet?
            Do we need a marine component of the strategic nuclear forces? I need it. Is it necessary to ensure the deployment of SSBNs? Required. For this, at least, means are needed to prevent foreign aircraft from ASW and nuclear submarines from shying away in the deployment areas. Without its own, albeit a small aircraft carrier fleet, this task is practically unsolvable.
            1. Ka-52
              Ka-52 1 February 2021 10: 39
              -4
              Do we need a marine component of the strategic nuclear forces? I need it. Is it necessary to ensure the deployment of SSBNs? Required. For this, at least, means are needed to prevent foreign aircraft from ASW and nuclear submarines from shying away in the deployment areas. Without its own, albeit a small aircraft carrier fleet, this task is practically unsolvable.

              This is not the point. The question raised is different - throughout almost most of the northern coast of the Russian Federation, there are places suitable for the deployment of the fleet on one hand. And almost all of them are in the Murmansk region - Vidyaevo, Polyarny, etc. and then, up to Dezhnev, no shipping, no ports. I think it's not even worth discussing the logic of the aircraft carrier groups in the Baltic.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2021 10: 46
                +12
                Quote: Ka-52
                The question raised is different - throughout almost most of the northern coast of the Russian Federation, there are places suitable for the deployment of the fleet on one hand. And almost all of them are in the Murmansk region

                And what is the problem? :))) What is the connection between the limited number of naval bases and the "land power"?
                1. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 1 February 2021 12: 44
                  -3
                  What is the connection between a limited number of naval bases and a "land power"?

                  Well, "land power" is certainly exaggerated. But also
                  And the fact that we have 38 807 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.

                  too hypertrophied in the context of the article)
                  We still have either a fairly limited location in the Barents Sea or the Pacific zone to cover the deployment zones of the MLRS. IMHO
                  attack aircraft carriers in the weather and ice conditions in the Kara or Laptev Sea look very sad))
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2021 13: 27
                    +9
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    Well, "land power" is certainly exaggerated. But also
                    And the fact that we have 38 807 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.
                    too hypertrophied in the context of the article)

                    How is it? To some extent hypertrophied, I agree. However, the fact is that there are maritime regions such as the Black, Baltic, Barents and Okhotsk seas, where our maritime border simply has to be "locked". And we can be very painfully slapped from the waters of the Mediterranean, Norwegian, Japanese seas, so protection would not hurt there either.
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    We still have either a fairly limited location in the Barents Sea or the Pacific zone to cover the deployment zones of the MLRS.

                    So yes, but without AB zone A2 / AD, as it is fashionable to say now, it is unlikely to be able to build.
                    Quote: Ka-52
                    attack aircraft carriers in the weather and ice conditions in the Kara or Laptev Sea look very sad))

                    That's for sure :))) They have absolutely nothing to do there
                    1. marat2016
                      marat2016 2 February 2021 09: 46
                      -5
                      "And we can be very painfully slapped from the waters of the Mediterranean, Norwegian, Japanese seas, so protection would not hurt there." - Do you offer a mirror answer, build from 10 aircraft carriers + security?
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2021 10: 25
                        +5
                        Quote: marat2016
                        Do you offer a mirror answer, build with 10 aircraft carriers + guards?

                        I propose to stop talking nonsense (I’m not for you personally) about the fact that the Russian Federation is a continental power that does not need a fleet. I also propose to build a fleet based on the real tasks facing it, which can be completely solved without having parity with the US Navy
                      2. marat2016
                        marat2016 2 February 2021 20: 59
                        -3
                        1. We generally proceed from our understanding of the needs of the Russian Federation. And from what the Kremlin is based on an open question. 2. And you did not think that in the conditions of a possible imminent war, it is necessary to close any construction of ships altogether and throw all resources on what can be brought to mind within six months or a year (aircraft, air defense systems, ground vehicles). From the naval, there can be repair of nuclear submarines, etc. Anything that can be done quickly and accurately. Although for this you need to be sure of the timing of this very war .... 3. Still my opinion on the aircraft carrier program of the USSR: It's not sad, but the priority for the Union was not the construction of aircraft carriers, but the modernization of the country, (economy, industry, science, education ). All this is the basis for the military-industrial complex and for the army and the navy. Had the Union lost the entire fleet at once, like the Republic of Ingushetia in 1905, this would not have raised the issue of a threat to the country's sovereignty ..... But the situation with the economy and socio-economic structure led to the collapse of the country. In fact, the ocean fleet helped to carry out negative things for the country: external expansion that brought losses, not profits .... It was not his fault, he was just a tool, albeit an expensive one. Well, let's imagine that by 1991 we managed to build 3-4 ships according to 11437. So what ? Would it save the country? You can even predict their fate: most likely, the Americans would not have allowed them to be sold ... Erefia did not manage to maintain a normal state, much simpler and cheaper Kiev, Minsk and Novorossiysk were scrapped ...
                      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2021 07: 31
                        +2
                        Quote: marat2016
                        And you did not think that in the conditions of a possible imminent war, it is necessary to close any construction of ships altogether and throw all resources on what can be brought to mind within six months or a year (aircraft, air defense systems, SV equipment).

                        Are you going to fight on a large scale and totally with someone in a year? With whom, if not a secret?
                        Quote: marat2016
                        Had the Union lost the entire fleet at once, like the Republic of Ingushetia in 1905, this would not have raised the issue of a threat to the country's sovereignty ..... But the situation with the economy and socio-economic structure led to the collapse of the country.

                        Yes.
                        Quote: marat2016
                        Well, let's imagine that by 1991 we managed to build 3-4 ships according to 11437. So what ? Would it save the country?

                        By 1991, we had built a lot of tanks, aircraft, missiles, including intercontinental ballistic ones, and so on and so on. And all this did not save the country. In vain, it turns out, they built? :))))
                        It is absolutely unclear to me what you want to say now. That it is necessary to develop the economy and not build aircraft carriers? Well, I'll tell you this - any government measures aimed at developing the economy do not develop this very economy, because our government has an extremely remote idea of ​​the economy. But large military orders have the most beneficial effect on the economy.
                      4. marat2016
                        marat2016 3 February 2021 08: 06
                        -1
                        1. Are you saying that the government is just stupid people who do not know what to do? 2. Maybe then you need to replace it?
                      5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2021 08: 24
                        +3
                        Quote: marat2016
                        Are you saying that the government is just stupid people who do not know what to do? 2. Maybe then you need to replace it?

                        It is high time. But what does this have to do with the issue under discussion?
                      6. marat2016
                        marat2016 3 February 2021 19: 51
                        -1
                        Direct, the development of the Navy depends entirely on this issue
                      7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2021 08: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: marat2016
                        Direct, the development of the Navy depends entirely on this issue

                        It remains to understand how we can do this. I don't understand yet. Illegal methods will not lead to success, and legal (elections) are impudently forged.
                      8. marat2016
                        marat2016 4 February 2021 08: 52
                        0
                        I agree. It remains to hope for a miracle (at random). :(
              2. marat2016
                marat2016 3 February 2021 08: 12
                -1
                The Russian fleet as a tool of expansion can be useful after putting things in order in the country itself. Until then, it is only a very costly thing that brings losses. The option with the mass construction of nk, pl for export is not feasible in the current Russian Federation.
              3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2021 08: 27
                +3
                Quote: marat2016
                The Russian fleet as a tool of expansion can be useful after putting things in order in the country itself.

                The Russian fleet (including the aircraft carrier) does not have to be an instrument of expansion. First of all, its tasks are nuclear deterrence.
                Quote: marat2016
                Until then, it is only a very costly thing that brings losses.

                I'm afraid you don't understand the economics of military construction. Military orders from the state stimulate the development of the economy, specifically - industry and high technologies. There can be no talk of any losses
              4. marat2016
                marat2016 3 February 2021 19: 54
                -1
                In theory, in practice, it is possible to produce large quantities of low-tech obsolete morale weapons. Well, high technologies still need to be able to be introduced into the civil sector ...
              5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2021 08: 59
                +2
                Quote: marat2016
                In theory, in practice, it is possible to produce large quantities of low-tech obsolete morale weapons.

                In practice, ANY order will serve as a stimulus for the industry, but for its various segments. The same aircraft carrier is several tens of thousands of tons of high-quality steel, and this is a great help for metallurgists, for example
                Quote: marat2016
                Well, high technologies still need to be able to be introduced into the civil sector ...

                High technologies are valuable in themselves, even without being introduced into the civil sector. By developing military high technologies, you give additional funding to fundamental science, increase the demand for scientists and engineers ... In addition, manufacturers of military technologies will profit from these orders, which they can use for their own needs, and this will facilitate their position in the civilian market. All of this is of paramount importance, even if the resulting technologies never work in the civilian sector.
              6. marat2016
                marat2016 4 February 2021 21: 08
                -1
                The experience of the USSR has shown that the mere availability of technology does not provide any advantages to the economy. They can be considered within the framework of a specific socio-economic system. As well as the presence or absence of aircraft carriers in the Navy. Roughly like the presence of dreadnoughts in the RI fleet: huge resources were spent on them, the return is ZERO. Or rather, even a minus: since the presence of a couple of thousand extra 76mm AU in the SV would be much more useful.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 1 February 2021 09: 10
    -12%
    Quote: Crowe
    so we do not need a fleet or an army, there is a raid.

    Almost yes! Dumas wrote that "the pen and the threat are worth more than the sword and devotion." There would be something to threaten, right?
  • Runway
    Runway 1 February 2021 06: 55
    0
    In general, I agree. However, the thickness of the ice in Avachinskaya is 0,6 meth and the icebreaker still chops off the steamers. winked
    I smiled at the first sentence and paragraph of the "epic". From the last paragraph - he laughed heartily. Master class "how to write about nothing".
    The author of the proposal is to write an article on the state of the mooring front / piers / PB infrastructure. A win-win.
  • Revolver
    Revolver 1 February 2021 07: 32
    +7
    It was nehren to leave Cam Ranh. The Pacific Fleet did not have a better base and is unlikely to be.
    And another of Stalin's very few mistakes was the return of Port Arthur to China. Although Stalin could not even dream in a nightmare that Mao would aggravate relations with the USSR.
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 1 February 2021 07: 40
      +19
      Under Khrushchev, Port Arthur was surrendered. Judge for yourself: having already set a course for the elimination of the naval base in Port Arthur, the Presidium of the Central Committee, headed by the energetic and creative First, immediately, without taking a breath, will form a commission to ... "develop a 10-year plan naval shipbuilding and a plan for the construction of aircraft carriers. ”That is, having saved 100 million on salaries for the military, defeated the 39th Army in peacetime and donated 40 million worth of weapons and property to the Chinese, Khrushchev immediately conceived a program to modernize the fleet, including the creation of aircraft carriers Without thinking about where and how the new ships will be based and serviced ... How he became First Secretary, I don't understand ... It's good that he was removed, otherwise he would have heaped up more business, they just figured out the Crimea ...
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 1 February 2021 11: 33
        +7
        Quote: Crowe
        How he became First Secretary, I don't understand ...

        as a result of the coup, Stalin was killed, an English spy was made from Beria, then Zhukov was placed under house arrest, and voila - Kukuruznik was the head of state ...
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 1 February 2021 21: 40
          +5
          Quote: PSih2097
          Quote: Crowe
          How he became First Secretary, I don't understand ...

          as a result of the coup, Stalin was killed, an English spy was made from Beria, then Zhukov was placed under house arrest, and voila - Kukuruznik was the head of state ...

          Not certainly in that way. The fact that Stalin was killed is, as they say, highly likely, but there is no evidence. Beria - yes, they were killed by a military coup led by Zhukov, and so that it did not quite look like a military coup, he put the seemingly controlled Khrushch as First Secretary. Then the removal from power, again under the threat of the use of military force, of the remnants of the Stalin Presidium - Molotov, Malenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov, who joined them. And soon after that Khrushch made a clever combination with Zhukov's visit to Yugoslavia. The all-powerful Minister of Defense, a member of the Presidium (or then the Politburo was too lazy to look for it), was formally the second and in fact the first in the country's leadership, but the retired marshal returned, with a stain on his uniform "for reducing the level of party political work in the Armed Forces." And if you please, Khrushch on the top, straight according to the formula "I will kill everyone, one will stay."
          1. PSih2097
            PSih2097 2 February 2021 10: 44
            +2
            Quote: Nagan
            The fact that Stalin was killed is, as they say, highly likely, but there is no evidence.

            And the fact that doctors were not allowed to see him is what is called ???
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 2 February 2021 10: 57
              +1
              Quote: PSih2097
              And the fact that doctors were not allowed to see him is what is called ???
              Doctors, those who had been observing and treating Stalin for years, were in prison on the "doctors' case." And it was NOT Beria who planted them, at that time he was removed from the NKVD / MVD / MGB, and thrown into the military-industrial complex, which he, as the Secretary of the Central Committee (supposedly promotion), supervised. The country's nuclear missile shield is largely the merit of Beria. And the law enforcement agencies were then headed by Ignatiev (MGB) and Kruglov (MIA). Which of them assigned doctors to Stalin instead of those arrested, and why they were not allowed to see the dying Stalin, there is no single version, and the documents about this are either carefully hidden or carefully destroyed.
      2. pin_code
        pin_code 4 February 2021 07: 11
        0
        Khrushchev cut the fleet, both operating and under construction. and never read that he was a fan of aircraft carriers. this tovarischa had an idea for a fixed rocket !!!!!!!!!!!!!! even stopped developing promising artillery systems ...
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 07: 43
      +2
      Quote: Nagan
      And another of Stalin's very few mistakes was the return of Port Arthur to China. Although Stalin could not even dream in a nightmare that Mao would aggravate relations with the USSR.

      Stalin wanted a strong friendship with Mao and with China in general, as he understood the enormous potential of China. It was not for nothing that Stalin did not let China fall apart, keeping its borders Manchuria, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia and Tibet. But Manchuria has been an independent state for half a century, recognized by many countries, including the USSR itself. That is, it was very easy to leave Manchuria as an independent country after 1949, the same applied to East Turkestan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia, these territories are still showing attempts at separatism, and it was just as easy to separate these territories from China of the 1949 model. By the way, Mao understood all this perfectly, and therefore was very grateful to Stalin and respected him immensely. Therefore, relations between Mao and Khrushchev deteriorated after the maize-worker's false speech about Stalin in 1956.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 08: 37
        +13
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Therefore, relations between Mao and Khrushchev deteriorated after the maize-worker's false speech about Stalin in 1956.

        like Stalin himself, Mao did not betray his friends, even the dead, I respect! a quarrel with China is even more a crime of Khrushch (a traitor Trotskyist) than the transfer of Crimea
      2. Revolver
        Revolver 1 February 2021 21: 51
        0
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        it was very easy to leave Manchuria as an independent country after 1949, the same applied to East Turkestan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia, these territories are still showing attempts at separatism, and separating these territories from China of the 1949 model was just as easy

        Or maybe it should. One tremendous headache for the whole world would be less.
      3. marat2016
        marat2016 2 February 2021 09: 49
        -2
        Perhaps the Union option with 6-7 weak, warring China would be more useful.
    3. Runway
      Runway 1 February 2021 07: 47
      +16
      The question is: how and what to supply "the best PB of the Pacific Fleet".
      Last week BDK 1174 "Alexander Nikolaev", catching a favorable breeze, cut off the mooring lines and rushed from Abrek to the campaign. If it were not for Putyatin Island with its coastal bottom, this would have been the first unmanned cruise of the Pacific Fleet's BDK.
      This is about a certain readiness and dreams of the naval.
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 2 February 2021 16: 35
        +3
        Duc Nikolaev is a dead man for disposal.

        Well, they overlooked the deceased. If he left, they would have sunk them with bombs. The VKS would at least show that they, in principle, can reach at least some sea target, at least this.
      2. pin_code
        pin_code 4 February 2021 07: 15
        0
        and this large landing craft in the fleet?
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 1 February 2021 08: 56
      +5
      In fact, Kamran was sold to Vietnam after N.S.
    5. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 1 February 2021 11: 32
      +4
      Quote: Nagan
      And another of Stalin's very few mistakes was the return of Port Arthur to China. Although Stalin could not even dream in a nightmare that Mao would aggravate relations with the USSR.

      Stalin only planned to return Port Arthur. In fact, he gave it to the NSX.
      And yes, let me remind you that we are talking about the very Port Arthur, which at the end of the XNUMXth century. was declared unsuitable for the basing of the fleet. Since then, practically nothing has changed in geography and hydrography - a shallow-water basin with a single outlet in a remote corner of the Yellow Sea. One YaB / SBCH - and "soup with ships" is ready.
      1. Nikon OConor
        Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 18: 59
        0
        and yes! in Port Arthur, even small (compared to aircraft carriers) battleships could fit in a limited number, and as it turned out, locking up the fleet there was a rather trivial task. So as a base for AUG, the place is not very good. Chemulpo looked much more comfortable then.
      2. Revolver
        Revolver 1 February 2021 21: 45
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And yes, let me remind you that we are talking about the same Port Arthur, which at the end of the XNUMXth century. was declared unsuitable for the basing of the fleet. Since then, in geography and hydrography, practically nothing has changed - a shallow basin with a single outlet in a remote corner of the Yellow Sea.

        Deepening the bottom in a non-freezing bay is much easier than preventing freezing freezing ones. Also, of course, the job is not cheap, but really.
  • Hog
    Hog 1 February 2021 08: 28
    +7
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Do you really think that the coasts of Novaya Zemlya, Taimyr, Yakutia, Yamal, Chukotka and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk are suitable for basing a fleet?

    It is now, but in 10-15 years it may already be suitable. Compare the size of the ice cap in the Arctic now and 20 years ago, especially since the top sinks in order to use the northern sea route to the maximum.
    PS: Well, the aircraft carrier is of course a dream and nothing more (at the moment).
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 08: 48
      -9
      Quote: Hog
      It is now, but in 10-15 years it may already be suitable. Compare the size of the Arctic ice cap now and 20 years ago

      Don't write nonsense. To keep the Arctic from freezing all year round, the average annual temperature on the Arctic coast of Russia needs to rise from the current -12 to zero degrees - as much as 12 degrees! That is, it should be +10 in summer, and -10 in winter, and not as now +5 in summer and -30 in winter. Such an increase in temperature is definitely not threatening us in the foreseeable future. In Vladivostok, for example, the average January temperature is -12, and at this temperature, the Golden Horn Bay freezes every winter, and therefore a port was built in Nakhodka, because the climate there is warmer and the bay is deeper, and therefore freezes only in especially cold winters.
      1. Runway
        Runway 1 February 2021 09: 23
        +7
        The horn does not freeze every winter. In the 18th year there was ice escort (it pressed for - 20 with a wind turbine). This winter is also not "Tashkent", but the surface is clean. Ulysses, Diomede - ice. But they prick, under the exit of steamers.
        Nakhodka Bay (where the port is) - freezes. Bay Nakhodka (where the raid is) - does not freeze.
        Vladik was closed (fortress / vmb), and Nakhodka was a trading port initially.
        1. Nikon OConor
          Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 21
          -1
          To ensure the constant possibility of the AUG exit for deployment, it is necessary to constantly drive icebreakers and more than one or two. The ships should be able to leave the bay as soon as possible, and preferably all at once. It is possible to provide this, but it is difficult and expensive. Alas.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 08: 42
    -2
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    That is, Russia has a meager number of convenient non-freezing bays and bays for basing an ocean-going fleet.

    right, but a lot and not enough just two bases, both non-freezing, Severomorsk and Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky, the entire Russian fleet needs to be moved there, a reliable defense, airbases, air defense and support for the exit and return of nuclear submarines must be created, but of course the AB is not needed there RF is not needed anywhere.
    1. Runway
      Runway 1 February 2021 09: 30
      +7
      We will supply the Armada in P-K with galleys (I know one rower), we will build a bridge from Marchekan (I also know one bridge builder) or we will extend a railway from Yakutsk (we will provide 25 million jobs) ??? laughing
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 09: 33
        +1
        Quote: WFP
        To supply

        Have you heard about dry cargo ships? these are ships, they carry goods by sea

        population Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky urban district. Population - 179 people. (586). the personnel of the tof is about 2020-2000 people, especially the supply will not increase.
        1. Runway
          Runway 1 February 2021 11: 50
          +9
          Yes exactly. And also tankers, container ships, ro-ro ships, etc.
          2-3 thousand military men are the crews of steamers (from RRC to corvette, including those under construction).
          Now the "ladybug" will start to grow:
          - to take deck flying machines (regiment)?
          - take scout steamers and trawls?
          - to take BMTO vessels (from the tug to "Irtysh" and other GCs)?
          - AE (to carry asses) to take?
          - Do we take the RC, the servants of death and the coastal camp of the rear (from the guard battalion to the warehouse fraternity)?
          - happy people and other naval colonels (headquarters, however) we take?
          - regiment of air defense missile systems and IAP VKS take (Elizovskie MiGs - not count, alas).
          And now the "grain" of the question emerges:
          - the military shipping company has a l / s of professionals and double basses, which are mostly family people - to build yarangas or will they live in the holds / rented huts? The number of servicemen in 10-12 thousand, multiply by three and 18 meters squared - half a million on the IES line only Living area?
          - steamships and other equipment to devour fuel and lubricants and stock "in case we go to heaven" is it necessary?
          - BC (RMTV and RAV) need?
          - types of allowance l / s - yes or self-service?
          - do we expand the mooring front or do we sculpt board to board steamers?
          - rembaz, docks, etc. do you need?
          In peacetime, one alignment, but if oh, bmto through La Perouse with the original HokkaidoOur?
          So "one-two" - we'll tear your pants, sir.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 1 February 2021 14: 44
            +5
            Quote: WFP
            - regiment of air defense missile systems and IAP VKS take (Elizovskie MiGs - not count, alas).

            One IAP and one ZRP, provided that P-K becomes the main base? It will not be enough © - this is Kamchatka, here from the mainland if help comes, it will be too little and too late. So at least a couple of IAP and ZRBR.
            Plus PLO aviation.
            Quote: WFP
            And also tankers, container ships, ro-ro ships, etc.

            It would also be nice to add a supply route cover force to the supply vessels. Otherwise, you have to cosplay Tallinn-41 or Sevastopol-42.
            1. Runway
              Runway 1 February 2021 23: 12
              +1
              And what is Vladivostok covered at the moment? Mixed IAP (beefed up to HELL two-regiment ((two ae in each))) and ZRP (3 zrdn, including Nakhodkinsky).
              I meant strengthening the forces available in Kamchatka.
              And yes, Yelizovo is not rubber to stick 38 + 12 + 5 + 20 boards to the existing + civil ...
              About caravans of steamers - it was a banter. wink
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 20: 11
            -1
            I counted the ships of the first second rank, add aviation and rear, ships of the third rank can be mostly in the Soviet harbor, and Vladivostok ... well, according to your logic, Vladivostok is too far away, and Severomorsk is generally cold ... let's all go to Moscow , there and housing there is food too ... there are all kinds of cafes .... ????
            1. Runway
              Runway 1 February 2021 23: 48
              0
              Everyone adds according to their own understanding, but my "lady" is thicker, since it is close to your realities, Vladimir, I want to.
              Vanino and military paraships are the phantom pains of the Union times (a ravine on the Sakhalin supply line and "cover from the sea" of the railway route to Khabarovsk via KnA. From ... brya to April, sailing in the openings / divorces of fields or the coastal strip.
              There are enough “points” for steamers in the RFP (for dispersal and operation in the Sea of ​​Japan).
              At the expense of housing, PFS, infrastructure - you are "past the cash register." Without the conditions of being in the FM, the first thing you will encounter is a decrease in l / s, which you cannot make up for with a double salary (the charm of a double bass army).
              The current basing of the steamers satisfies the peacetime conditions, but no one guarantees that in a special period the steamers will not leave for PK.
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 2 February 2021 07: 51
                -2
                Quote: WFP
                Without the conditions of being in the FM, the first thing you will encounter is a decrease in l / s, which you cannot make up for with a double salary (the charm of a double bass army).
                The current basing of the steamers satisfies the peacetime conditions, but no one guarantees that in a special period the steamers will not leave for PK.

                we sell Kuzya and get 5000 l / s free, basing implies appropriate provision, supply, accommodation in human conditions, double salary, etc. ... it is better to spend money on supporting the base of the nuclear submarine than to maintain Kuzya in Severomorsk by the way
      2. Nikon OConor
        Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 23
        -2
        I know one more bridge builder)) Two - already a brigade)) with rowers - I'll have to think wassat
  • vladcub
    vladcub 1 February 2021 08: 49
    +2
    About the Baltic and Black Seas, I 100% agree. I also agree with Yamal.
    Now I do not agree with anything. Do you think we don't need an aircraft carrier?
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 08: 53
      -3
      Quote: vladcub
      Do you think we don't need an aircraft carrier?

      I believe that Russia, in principle, can build and maintain at least two aircraft carriers - one at the Northern Fleet, the other at the Pacific Fleet in Avacha Bay
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 09: 46
        -2
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        in principle can build

        what for? and for what money?
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 1 February 2021 13: 44
          +3
          There would be a desire, but you can find money, but for this you need to have the WILL
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 1 February 2021 15: 46
            -5
            Out of your pocket? I am for! From my own and a broken penny I will not give!
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 1 February 2021 18: 27
              +4
              Quote: kalibr
              From my own and a broken penny I will not give!

              You don't pay income !?
              And if you pay, they won't even ask you: they will vote, approve budget expenditure items - and ala-ulyu! Chase the geese !!! laughing
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 1 February 2021 18: 38
                -2
                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                You don't pay income !?
                And if you pay, they won't even ask you: they will vote, approve budget expenditure items - and ala-ulyu! Chase the geese !!!

                This is sad. Not officials for the people, but the people for officials. Not servants of the people, but people in the form of servants!
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 2 February 2021 09: 08
                  +2
                  V.O. "selyavi"
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 20: 12
            0
            with an effort of will, you'd better buy me a tea, 13 gas ... I really want to but no money
      2. Nikon OConor
        Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 31
        0
        Do you think we don't need an aircraft carrier?

        We need not one aircraft carrier, but a full-fledged AUG.
        I believe that Russia, in principle, can build and maintain at least two aircraft carriers

        Two AUG, and this is a different task format and other expenses. Frigates - as an ersatz substitute for air defense destroyers - is doubtful. As an ersatz substitute for shock ships - if an owl is on a globe, then of course you can. But if each AUG is also given an "Orlan" (just 2), then it is already possible to dance from something. In general, the problem is solvable.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 20: 15
          -1
          Quote: Nikon OConor
          Frigates

          what frigates? there are only 6 of them in the navy,
          1. Nikon OConor
            Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 20: 26
            0
            I meant in the future, the aircraft carrier will not appear instantly either (especially 2). So an escort of frigates can be built in time. But their functionality for AUG is a question. Destroyers, as far as I understand, we cannot and will not build yet. Erzats he is. Although "Tikanderogi" in mattress AUGs still go, why "Eagles" are worse? Moreover, "Nakhimov" has been modernized.
            With respect.
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 21: 15
              -1
              Quote: Nikon OConor
              I mean in perspective

              What for?
              1. Nikon OConor
                Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 21: 22
                +1
                what do you mean "why?" If we are discussing the prospects for Russian AUGs, what are we going to replace air defense destroyers and attack ships with?
                But yes, we won't have any aircraft carriers in the next 10 years. So yes, the question is why is relevant))
                1. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 22: 41
                  -2
                  Quote: Nikon OConor
                  prospects of Russian AUG

                  why do we need AUG? where?
                  1. Nikon OConor
                    Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 22: 43
                    0
                    I don't even want to answer. Good luck to you.
                  2. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 2 February 2021 07: 54
                    -1
                    it is clear that you have nothing to answer, and everyone here has known this for a long time, only some ran into their empty dreams of pink ponies about a spherical horse in a vacuum (AUG), while others made conclusions ... and good luck to you
                2. pin_code
                  pin_code 4 February 2021 07: 28
                  0
                  every time the same thing. Let submarines and minesweepers. and why boats and minesweepers? if your boats overwhelm. the fleet must be balanced. and it is better to have 5 boats and AUG than 25 boats and a minesweeper
                3. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 08: 46
                  -1
                  Quote: pin_code
                  have 5 boats and AUG than 25 boats and a minesweeper

                  it is clear that it is better to have 25 boats and a minesweeper, if there are 25 boats, and not 5, then there is the likelihood of their combat stability and the fulfillment of the most important task of a nuclear retaliatory strike by some of them, and a minesweeper he destroys mines and provides passageways for ships ... but why aug? nobody knows, so it is not needed if there are no tasks. that lewdness is one. Every thing must have a task.
      3. pin_code
        pin_code 4 February 2021 07: 24
        0
        there are no aircraft carriers yet, why are you so nervous?
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 09: 42
    -4
    Quote: vladcub
    You don't need an aircraft carrier?

    and why?
  • 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 1 February 2021 09: 01
    +7
    in general, in the east, as far as the Pacific Fleet is concerned, only the northern part of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk freezes, and farther south, and there is a lot of space, it freezes for a short time, only as an exception and not every year .. that is, your thought is already lame about the fact that the ocean is not suitable for basing a fleet.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 09: 20
      -9
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      and farther south, and there is a lot of space, it freezes for a short time, only as an exception and not every year .. that is, your thought is already lame about the fact that the Pacific Ocean is not suitable for basing a fleet ..

      Don't write nonsense. Let's take the Amur Bay, on the shores of which the city of Vladivostok is located, and this is almost the southernmost city in the Far East of Russia, only Nakhodka is located to the south.
      Amur Bay, among other water areas of Primorsky Territory, juts into the land most deeply and is distinguished by a significant indented coastline. It is fenced off from the open sea by the Muravyov-Amursky peninsula and the extended chain of islands of the Eugenia archipelago. Due to the relatively continental climate, the earliest ice formation is observed in the bay. Ice cover in Uglovy Bay and Novik Bay appears already at the end of November, and melts only in late March - early April. Nevertheless, in May the water in these bays warms up to +14 ° C. A strong fast ice, which allows safe movement on ice, forms in February and completely covers the northern part of the bay. The maximum boundary of the distribution of stationary ice usually runs east of the line between Cape Peschaniy and Cape Markovsky (Popov Island).
      That is, if even in Vladivostok the sea freezes off the coast, then what can we say about the more northern and colder waters? The Bay of Nakhodka is relatively non-freezing, where fast ice 5-10 cm thick is formed there in winter, which is regularly broken by the rough seas. But in severe winters, the bay can freeze. And warships are not icebreakers, they are designed for iceless waters, and the shape of their hulls is optimal for achieving maximum speed in iceless waters. That is, for warships, even relatively thin ice 10-20 cm thick is already an insurmountable obstacle. And a fleet frozen into the ice is useless from a military point of view, since it loses its mobility, and due to its immobility becomes an easy target for the enemy.
      1. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 1 February 2021 12: 30
        +8
        1. This winter, LNG tankers of the Christophe Margerie type sail along the NSR to Asia.
        2. There are icebreakers of various types, sizes and purposes.
        3. The Gulf of Finland and even sometimes the Sevastopol Bay freeze over. For some reason, no one questions the possibility of basing naval ships there.
        4. The criterion freezing-non-freezing bay-port was relevant in the era of wooden architecture of ships with a displacement of 100-150 tons.
        5. Even the impossibility or unwillingness for 2-3 months due to force majeure to carry out the daily activities of the fleet to ensure the country's defense is not a reason to abandon it for the rest of the year from a strategically important and convenient naval base.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 1 February 2021 19: 08
          -6
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          1. This winter, LNG tankers of the Christophe Margerie type sail along the NSR to Asia.

          What reality do you live in? Where do elves and goblins live?
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          3. The Gulf of Finland and even sometimes the Sevastopol Bay freeze over. For some reason, no one questions the possibility of basing naval ships there.

          The Sevastopol Bay NEVER freezes! Why are you lying?
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          4. The criterion freezing-non-freezing bay-port was relevant in the era of wooden architecture of ships with a displacement of 100-150 tons.

          That is why even now tankers and container ships prefer to go to Europe from Japan and Korea via Singapore and Sinai, and not via Taimyr.
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          5. Even the impossibility or unwillingness for 2-3 months due to force majeure to carry out the daily activities of the fleet to ensure the country's defense is not a reason to abandon it for the rest of the year from a strategically important and convenient naval base.

          Therefore, the US and British fleets are located in the Hudson Bay and the Beaufort Sea - after all, being frozen in the ice is the best thing a fleet can do!
        2. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 08: 49
          +1
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          There are icebreakers of various types, sizes and purposes.

          Quite right .... and by the way, not so expensive and even more so for ice 10 -20 cm, you can use not an icebreaker, but a tug, in a fairly northern St. Petersburg tugs are used to break ice in the Neva
  • Silhouette
    Silhouette 1 February 2021 08: 13
    +6
    And how many of them are on ice? Stop speculating on numbers! This is not a kindergarten.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 08: 44
    -2
    Quote: Crowe
    And the fact that we have 38 807 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.

    of which 308000 are tundra and taiga
  • PSih2097
    PSih2097 1 February 2021 12: 00
    0
    Quote: Crowe
    And the fact that we have 38 807 (almost equator) sea lines is unimportant.

    they will block everything with "Bastions" and "Balami" with "Bereg" ... laughing
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 1 February 2021 06: 43
    0
    The main thing is not to reinvent the wheel. It is enough to look at the western AUG. There are now built new aircraft carriers, different concepts. ... the moment 35 (modernized at that time) will cope quite well + UAV and drlo.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 08: 53
      0
      Quote: Zaurbek
      look at western AUG

      and they also support LGBT and you also need it? and if the head starts to beat the wall and you also start? and they also accept the Arabs and feed them ... well, that's not ... just at your own expense ...
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 4 February 2021 08: 58
        0
        To do this, you need to have a development program ... and it may not coincide with those of other countries or coincide on certain points ...
        1. Why do we need Arabs when we resist the relocation of Russian-speaking (Russians) from the CIS? Are there positive examples in the world of relocating those in need?
        2. Does the Russian Federation need the population to grow? Or is it not necessary? hence the questions on LGBT and migration?
        3. What migrants do we need - hard workers or scientists? Hence the selection of migrants ...

        And for everything there are examples of a POSITIVE solution to the issue in developed countries and a NEGATIVE one ...


        It is important to ask yourself a question and answer it.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 1 February 2021 06: 56
    +5
    So what are we talking about, I don't understand something, if it's about the author's dreams and fantasies, then that's all right. and if about reality, then .......? fellow
  • Passer
    Passer 1 February 2021 07: 13
    +6
    None. See things realistically.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 1 February 2021 07: 46
    -5
    Varan oh how logical it looks. Protect the "bastions". And in size it really looks like. You can even dream about this.
    1. SVD68
      SVD68 1 February 2021 08: 03
      +5
      "Bastions" can not be guarded otherwise than by attacking enemy ships and submarines. Varan has weak attacking capabilities. There are no PLO funds at all. Because it will be necessary to clear the sky of enemy ASW aircraft and provide its own air defense, then only 4-6 aircraft can be allocated to strike the ships.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 1 February 2021 10: 55
        -4
        Are you really driving? Air defense component and not a lone ranger. In this dimension, it is excellent for providing air defense connections. Near him is at least a destroyer and a couple of BODs. If something is nearby this is not close to the sides but at a distance of tens of miles
        1. Nikon OConor
          Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 55
          -2
          Understand, the very concept of AUG is striking, and an aircraft carrier as an air cover for attack ships is bad manners. Then it is easier to build many long-range missiles and their carriers and "bullet" from the Azov puddle. The air defense component of the AUG is provided by a link of aircraft (4-6 with constant rotation, i.e. multiplied by 3) and air defense destroyers, the rest of the air wing hollows out the barmaleev. We have no destroyers with air defense (there are none at all), they can only be replaced by cruisers of the Orlan project (I think Orlan will take out to replace 1 air defense destroyer and 1 strike destroyer from the CD). In general, the concept of using AUG is needed. And I think the RF will pull a couple of them.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 1 February 2021 21: 21
            +1
            AUG is, first of all, a full-fledged aircraft carrier for less than a hundred aircraft and cool AWACS. It will shine for Russia not earlier than in 15 years. And then in the amount of a maximum of two connections. And then in ideal political and economic conditions. Almost Utopia. But ensuring the deployment of the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces is the problem of today. And the problem is acute. An air defense monitor lizard will not need to hammer enemy ships. First of all, intelligence. Including and exploration in the interests of PLO. In the second air defense area. So that YadronBatons could safely shoot back. And that's all. The whole world is in dust. And so that the Batons could safely shoot, HunterKillers and Poseidons should not hang on their tail. 24/7. To prevent this, you need to have a destroyer in the Bastion. A couple of BODs. And a couple of dozen aircraft are highly desirable. Kastati small turboprop aircraft, the basis for AWACS can serve as the basis for the PLO aircraft.
            1. Nikon OConor
              Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 21: 45
              -3
              operation of submarine-based strategic nuclear weapons up to 10000 km. Roughly speaking, we can shoot from the home port. But this is of course all conditional, the home port will be destroyed. Therefore, the RKSN is on alert. but the withdrawal from the water area can also be provided by a grouping of ships in the near sea and far sea zones (corvettes, frigates). Varan controversial decision - a non-aircraft carrier. "Kuznetsov" is at least a cruiser (it has its own air defense and anti-ship missiles) and a larger air wing.
              In general, I have to agree with you, but there are some comments. -
              The withdrawal of underwater strategists can be solved with coastal aviation and small ships.
              This problem can be solved by "Orlan" and 2-3 corvettes + the Air Force of the fleet. IMHO
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 2 February 2021 01: 52
                +1
                Conclusion yes. No watch. Securing Bastion with a full-fledged aircraft carrier is expensive and irrational. A small aircraft carrier looks logical for these purposes. Plus gaining experience in construction, operation and flight support. In the future, aircraft are replaced by UAVs and new opportunities appear.
                1. SVD68
                  SVD68 2 February 2021 08: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  Securing Bastion with a full-fledged aircraft carrier is expensive and irrational. A small aircraft carrier looks logical for these purposes.

                  How do you think "Varan" will guard the bastion?
                  1. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 2 February 2021 09: 32
                    -1
                    Be part of a group of ships patrolling the area. Air defense and reconnaissance. Strategists will be hunted by PLO planes and hunting submarines. So that they do not hang on the tail will interfere with their work. Our BODs in the field of air defense just do nothing. They will cover them.
                    1. Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 08: 56
                      0
                      Quote: garri-lin
                      go to the group of ships patrolling the area. Air defense and reconnaissance. Strategists will be hunted by PLO planes and hunting submarines. So that they do not hang on the tail will interfere with their work. Our BOD in the field of air defense just do not. Will cover them.

                      Isn't it easier to do all this with coastal aviation?
                      1. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 4 February 2021 09: 08
                        0
                        At a distance of a thousand kilometers from your native shores? 90 percent of the engines resource for the round trip?
                      2. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 14: 42
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        thousand kilometers

                        a couple of three thousand ... the resource of engines ... yes, your aug at a price is more not only engines, but half of the entire videoconferencing of the Russian Federation, with planes and missiles (and not just engines)
                      3. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 4 February 2021 15: 29
                        0
                        Two patrol pairs of fighters in the air. A pair of AWACS. Three PLO scouts. 24/7. For Varana, a very real working condition. Driving this from the shore on fuel will go broke. Plus, light fighters won't fly that long. And with Varan, light types of MiG 29 can work. There is no need for more for those tasks.
                      4. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 17: 48
                        0
                        young man ... have you studied economics? .... your 24.7 is by definition more expensive than a shoulder of 2000 km (4 hours), and you just can't imagine the fuel consumption on ships ... they are much more voracious than trucks and even airplanes, because there is a Froude and Reynolds number ... read what it is.... . For example, a small aircraft carrier Kuznetsov eats more than 6 tons of fuel per hour or 145 tons per day .... have you noticed that a tanker usually drags behind a battleship? that's the same! ... do you still think that the bomber's fuel consumption on the shoulder of 2000 km is more expensive than what I have listed? .. and this is without taking into account the fact that your entire AV can simply sink from the first mine or third missile, torpedo and carry 5000 people to the bottom with the planes you listed
                      5. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 4 February 2021 18: 56
                        0
                        Purely if we flew into the patrol zone and flew back, the outfit of forces I described will spend approximately like Kuzya. Per day. 18 sorties per day with an impossible 12 hours of patrolling. 18 to 2000 there and 2000 back, what is the distance? Almost two equators a day is just a senseless journey.
                      6. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 4 February 2021 19: 05
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        flew into the patrol zone and flew back

                        and where did you get the idea that the planes need to patrol? The Second World War ended 75 years ago, now the planes do not patrol, but fly out on a combat mission, now satellites and ground radars are patrolling, well, the A50 is clearly not deck-based. The search for submarines can be mistaken for patrolling, but this is a combat mission with an indication of the search area and the time and methodology and aircraft there are specific for the task ...
                      7. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 4 February 2021 19: 07
                        0
                        Everything is clear with you. You have no idea how the service goes. Have you even served in the Army?
  • SVD68
    SVD68 2 February 2021 08: 06
    0
    Quote: garri-lin
    Castati is a small turboprop aircraft, the basis for AWACS can also serve as the basis for an PLO aircraft.

    Not planned for "Varana". There is no place for them. If only a UAV, but doubtful.
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 2 February 2021 09: 33
      0
      All projects are utopia. If they decide to do it, they will definitely take care. Without an AWACS aircraft, any aircraft carrier loses its meaning.
  • Nikon OConor
    Nikon OConor 1 February 2021 19: 41
    -1
    provide its own air defense

    that it will be difficult for Varana, since it is necessary to ensure the constant presence of the AUG cover link in the air, and this is 12-18 vehicles in rotation, how then to provide AWACS, PLO, and strikes? There will be no AUG, but a group of ships under air protection, the meaning is lost.
  • SVD68
    SVD68 1 February 2021 07: 52
    +1
    Why is the picture "Varana" mirrored?
    1. Sofa batyr
      Sofa batyr 1 February 2021 08: 51
      +3
      Quote: SVD68
      Why is the picture "Varana" mirrored?

      Usually such a "trick" is done to avoid possible claims from the copyright holder of the image.

      The image is essentially the same, but something is depicted on it fellow
    2. Avior
      Avior 1 February 2021 10: 34
      +3
      What would be more original. :)))
      But the number 460 failed
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 1 February 2021 07: 55
    +7
    The issue of goal-setting is not mentioned at all.
    But we must start with this.
    WHAT FOR
    What the fleet should want from this aircraft carrier.
    More precisely, no, not even so.
    First, what should the country's leadership want from the fleet?

    We even have a misunderstanding with coastal naval aviation, but here about the Asian carrier of fantasy.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 1 February 2021 08: 32
    -1
    no one needs vessels, no tasks, security guards and money ... there is nothing at all, except for a cardboard fool of a model
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 1 February 2021 08: 44
    +4
    Quote: Alien From
    We were born to make a fairy tale come true ...) ...


    Yes, but not under the current anti-popular political regime.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 1 February 2021 09: 05
    -3
    Actually, we can argue now until the second coming about the aircraft carrier.
    I would prefer the comments of people who are in the "topic". Which one of us is a current naval officer? I do not know such.
    Kamrad Petzorez is a shipbuilder and he is more in the "topic" than all our sofas
  • vladcub
    vladcub 1 February 2021 09: 23
    +4
    For some reason I am annoyed: "super" or "unparalleled." So it seems that some manager, I do not like this word, wants to show off. And to the place or not he does not care.
    Regarding the projects: "Storm" could only "pull" the Soviet Union, but not the Russian Federation., "Manatee", the name of the project is somewhat reminiscent of UDO. Remember, there was a lot of noise on the site about which project of the Russian "Mistral" would be chosen and then the name flashed: "Manatee", probably the designers have poor imagination? If repeat
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 1 February 2021 09: 25
    +5
    "Manatee" is a sticky one, of course, complete. We got out the old drawings of "Ulyanovsk" and reworked it a little.
  • iouris
    iouris 1 February 2021 10: 12
    +2
    The mind cannot understand it. One can only believe in this (or not believe).
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 1 February 2021 10: 55
    +3
    "Visiting a fairy tale" - correctly noted ...
    All 3 models are ugly.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 1 February 2021 11: 29
    +8
    the fewer such materials in the media, the better.
    Now building an aircraft carrier is an absolute fantasy.
    Even in the most optimistic expectations, if everything works out, it will be an extremely long development with no less lengthy production and refinement to a combat-ready state. And the resulting sample, if adopted, will go into operation already morally obsolete.
    And this is the best scenario. But according to the usual scenario, we will get the second Zenith stadium, which will never be handed over to the fleet, but huge amounts of money will be wasted.
    1. Scharnhorst
      Scharnhorst 1 February 2021 12: 39
      +4
      Better an aircraft carrier to the country than the stolen funds in the pocket of a private developer. And explain how an aircraft carrier can become obsolete as a ship?
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 1 February 2021 12: 45
        +6
        well, for example, Kuznetsov was put on modernization.
        In addition, the filling of many rooms is completely outdated in 20 years.
        For example, the project planned to install a lamp monitor, and when the ship was handed over, flat transistor ones already appeared. Dumb replacement monitors will free up substantial mass and volume in rooms.
        1. Scharnhorst
          Scharnhorst 1 February 2021 13: 06
          +1
          Nobody will argue with this. We will replace the free-falling bombs with guided gliding bombs, replace the Su-33 with the Su-57K, and change the core of the nuclear reactor. In fifty years, the crew will change a dozen times, the so-called. "metal fatigue", it is necessary to change the cable routes and the layout of the premises. The ship was built according to a new aircraft carrier design - why is it outdated?
          1. Avior
            Avior 1 February 2021 17: 43
            +3
            ... well, for example, Kuznetsov was put on modernization.

            we will change the core of a nuclear reactor.

            There will be serious problems with this
      2. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 1 February 2021 13: 05
        +5
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        how can an aircraft carrier become obsolete as a ship?

        If we mean a large flat-deck barge, then yes, it hardly gets old.
        And if, as a full-fledged airfield, then all the equipment at our rate will become obsolete even before the end of construction. And not only morally, but also physically.
      3. kalibr
        kalibr 1 February 2021 15: 52
        0
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        Better an aircraft carrier to the country than the stolen funds in the pocket of a private developer.

        Wrong! There was also Adam Smith - there was such an economist, Eugene Onegin read it (and it would be nice for you!), Proved that none of the economic follies of private traders, none of their financial waste and robberies harm the state, on the contrary. But the state is always harmed by the insanity in the economy committed by itself!
    2. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 2 February 2021 16: 40
      +1
      Not certainly in that way.
      You just need to organize yourself differently than now.
      And you can build it completely. And the sense will be.
      And there is money for it, they only need to be redirected from other projects. Like the same Poseidon.
  • for
    for 1 February 2021 14: 16
    +1
    How do you like this "project"
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 1 February 2021 15: 26
    +2
    Gentlemen, these are nothing more than wet dreams. It would make sense to implement such a project at least in a pair version - otherwise it will be VERY expensive, alterations of shipyards and R&D will make a piece product truly golden. The fleet now has no money for this, as well as the state in general.
    1. Escobar
      Escobar 1 February 2021 17: 55
      +1
      And besides, what's the use of this fool without an escort? Without cruisers and escort destroyers that we don't have
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 1 February 2021 16: 32
    +3
    The last photo must be looked through the mirror. Probably, the "Nevskoe Design Bureau" lives in a mirror universe. laughing
    Anyway, it's boring, kids. You - those who are engaged in this - first, at least design normal minesweepers and start building. So that the respected Klimov would say - "yes, now everything is fine with this." When he says, then I'll believe. smile Then the corvettes, so that Klimov and others who think about this would not have any questions for them. Then the frigates. Then the destroyers. Modern AWACS aircraft - coastal, basic - no matter what you call them. Anti-submarine aircraft - not antique Eli with a bookcase on the nose - and laughter and sin. recourse
    1. agond
      agond 1 February 2021 17: 03
      0
      One gets the impression that the topic of aircraft carriers is being persistently and constantly lobbied, and who are the stakeholders?
  • Escobar
    Escobar 1 February 2021 17: 53
    0
    Let at least the basic aviation of the Navy be restored so that the enemy does not approach the shore
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 1 February 2021 18: 08
    +3
    Quote: WFP
    write an article on the state of the mooring front / piers / PB infrastructure. A win-win.

    Colleague, you live in yesterday!
    The entire mooring front has been substantially renewed. Baltiysk, Novorossiysk, Vilyuchinsk, Severomorsk, Makhachkala - this is what I saw with my own eyes. And he also built in Baltiysk and Novorossiysk, Makhachkala ...
    So, the correct conclusions are still drawn from the mistakes of the past. yes
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 1 February 2021 18: 16
    0
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Therefore, relations between Mao and Khrushchev deteriorated after the maize-worker's false speech about Stalin in 1956.

    The entire Chinese delegation left the 20th party congress in protest ...
    The United States took advantage of the split, which led us to an armed conflict on about. Damansky.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 1 February 2021 18: 32
    0
    And why the hell of the Russian aircraft carriers? There is nothing to protect their borders with, so lovers of sawing ideas swing at very suspicious developments ...
  • storm
    storm 1 February 2021 20: 21
    +5
    I would prohibit any spending on an aircraft carrier until the fleet receives 30 frigates and 6-8 destroyers.
    First, you need to "build up" the surface ship structure to the minimum sufficient, and then rush to "expensive toys" ...
    Hopefully by that time Aviks will be no longer in demand ...
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 1 February 2021 21: 29
      +1
      Strike Avics in defensive doctrine are not in demand anyway. Only few people understand this. And Russia, in fact, has no conflicts in the future where strike aircraft carriers can be used. Or we help Friends and work from their airfields. As in Syria. Or just do not fight. Because Russia is not going to attack anyone.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 2 February 2021 08: 32
        +1
        Strike Avics in defensive doctrine and so unclaimed

        If there is a need to ensure the stability of a group of ships in the ocean, then an AB with catapults is needed. Years always have "eyes in the sky" and fighters, at least.
        A compromise option - Varan, quite himself.
        1. garri-lin
          garri-lin 2 February 2021 09: 35
          -1
          I'm just arguing on this topic above. Varan for modern Russia is a great option.
  • Eug
    Eug 1 February 2021 21: 18
    +1
    I was pleased that electromagnetic catapults are spoken of as realities. Steam in northern seas sometimes freeze ...
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 2 February 2021 08: 26
      +3
      I was glad that about electromagnetic

      There is a lot to talk about.
      We have been talking about the railgun for 20 years already, and BAE Systems has been producing them.
      Steam in northern seas sometimes freeze ...

      Give a specific example when something like this happened. request
      In theory, there may be a slight icing on the deck in the area of ​​the catapult. Easily solved with a reactive "wind blower".
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 2 February 2021 03: 55
    0
    There is no sadder story in the world ...
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 2 February 2021 06: 14
    0
    IMHO, Varan is the most realistic project. It is easier and cheaper to build infrastructure for its dimensions (for once).
    It is better to choose a nuclear power plant (RITM-200), due to the presence of certain difficulties in the production of marine diesel engines / gas turbines.
    1. SVD68
      SVD68 2 February 2021 08: 03
      0
      Quote: 3danimal
      Varan is the most realistic project. It is easier and cheaper to build infrastructure for its dimensions (for once).

      This reminds me that you need to look under the lantern, and not where you lost.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 2 February 2021 08: 19
        +2
        Living on 100 thousand a month, you can "try on" Lamborghini, but it is worth taking the maximum "Cretu". (Analogy)
        Complete lack of experience in building such large warships like the supercarrier.
        But something, Kuznetsov's format, is another matter. The main thing is not to step on the old "rake": to install an adequate and reliable power plant, to create infrastructure.
        Of the advantages - a flat deck and the presence of catapults (2x, it seems), which will finally allow you to launch an AWACS aircraft (and a transport aircraft based on it).
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 2 February 2021 08: 24
    +3
    With today's professionals in power, I suspect that the next Russian aircraft carrier will be decommissioned by the Chinese Liaoning, the one that is Soviet.
  • APASUS
    APASUS 2 February 2021 15: 47
    0
    One of the most important problems is the complexity of international cooperation in this area, aggravated by the sanctions pressure of the West and the difficulty in accessing new technologies.

    Maybe you shouldn't wait for mercy from the West and start investing in science yourself? The material once again emphasizes the flawedness of our policy in the field of development of science and technology
  • Angry
    Angry 2 February 2021 16: 27
    -1
    This Varan is definitely, I hope we saw him for the last time. And, of course, we need AB, but unlike the USA, we absolutely do not need nuclear shock 33-kilotons, such as Ford, and so on. No matter how we scold ourselves, we have weapons like the Onyx and Co anti-ship missiles, which are not available in the USA !. Therefore, percussion functions are not needed by our AB. The attack functions of the compound will be performed by the BNK, starting with the MRK and the corvette, on which there are UKSC and nuclear submarines. Why do we need to build a giant with catapults, the experience of creating which we do not have, so that our Su-800 can raise as much as one Onyx anti-ship missile with a launch range of 12 km? And the whole squadron will be able to hit as many as 33 anti-ship missiles. And if the Su-44 is intercepted? Such a blow can easily be made by a hundred times smaller RTOs "Karakurt". Why duplicate media? AB we should be of the Kuznetsov type, or Krylovsky light multipurpose AB with VI 4KT, with a springboard, which we know how to build, with a regiment of fighters, for solving reconnaissance, air defense and anti-aircraft missile forces. Moreover, we do not need an atomic one, and so at least fill up with oil. Otherwise, the price of such an AB will be several billion dollars more expensive. And for one billion dollars, you can build a couple of frigates with three UKSK. And for two or three? It would be better to have 6-33 more frigates in the formation, the striking force of each of which will be equal to two squadrons of Su-XNUMX .. And of course it is pointless to consider a hypothetical situation AB against AB. It is clear that if this happens (and it will never happen, nuclear weapons will not allow), then the air defense AB will win, and not the shock AB. The strike will lose all or part of the strike aircraft and sink home until they drown, and even then, if he's lucky.
    1. Yuriy71
      Yuriy71 2 February 2021 21: 04
      -1
      And who will provide air defense for the Karakurtam! With regard to air defense, this line of RTOs is babies! It is better for them to sit at home, under the cover of the Base's air defense and not stick out into the open sea, and, if they have to - to hit missiles right from its limits! Otherwise, a couple of NATO planes, being in a free search or having specific, fixed and tracked targets in the form of these RTOs, will melt them in HOUR X, like kittens !!!
  • Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 2 February 2021 20: 58
    +3
    Reading these Manilov opuses is somehow even funny! All smart people understand perfectly well that in Russia in the coming Decades - aircraft carriers are simply not expected! Many "officials" from the Ministry of Defense and other departments have already spoken about this! Why these stuffing and window dressing layouts! I am also fond of Ship modeling and I can present my models)))) Joke)))
  • Kushka
    Kushka 2 February 2021 23: 51
    0
    Quote: Falcon5555
    The last photo must be looked through the mirror. Probably, the "Nevskoe Design Bureau" lives in a mirror universe. laughing
    Anyway, it's boring, kids
    [i] [/ i]. :

    When we were tired of the same movie at sea,
    we turned it upside down or backwards.
    "Well, wait" back to front - it's not even boring,
    I will tell you.
  • Sevastiec
    Sevastiec 4 February 2021 09: 48
    -2
    Give me an aircraft carrier-submarine vodka!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • rjpthju
    rjpthju 5 February 2021 07: 30
    -4
    Dreamers ... Not tired of fantasizing? My friend said: Business, this is business. And if in between cases la, la, then this is no longer the case. And we have one la, la. Yes, it's not about between things.
  • Selevc
    Selevc 5 February 2021 09: 09
    -2
    Despite the obvious successes of Russian shipbuilding (in particular, the transfer to the fleet last year of the second frigate of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" and the laying of the first universal amphibious ships)
    These are successes ??? France has long built the Mistrals, Japan has also quietly and quickly built a helicopter carrier, Britain has built an aircraft carrier, China is completing its own - and Russia is building a frigate-class vessel and is proud of it !!! )))

    Russia completely lost the carrier race a long time ago because it never took part in it seriously and is not going to !!! Russia is actually building a surface fleet for the defense of which it is simply not designed for a long war far from its shores !!! This is very prudent in terms of cost savings and real prospects for the use of the fleet.

    And the construction of aircraft carriers in Russia in the years after the collapse of the USSR did not advance one step from the creation of cardboard and wooden models !!! Russia has nowhere to build aircraft carriers, there is no one and nothing, and not why - that's the whole prospect !!!
  • Prokhor80
    Prokhor80 7 February 2021 22: 30
    +1
    Why do we need this trough worth tens of hundreds of billions of rubles? Dozens of corvettes, frigates and submarines that can be built with this money will have much greater combat resistance.
    We do not need an aircraft carrier - this is a very concentrated target - and it is possible to destroy it!
  • Protos
    Protos 8 February 2021 19: 14
    -1
    Quote: bayard
    Quote: 3danimal
    GDP once said "patriotism is our ideology"


    And the GDP said a lot of things,
    Everyone can talk.
    It's time to do something and make from the promised.
    "20 years is a long time ...".
    It's time to take stock and check them against your promises.

    And what did you do yourself ?!
    Paid taxes or stopped parking on lawns ?!
    They gave birth to three children and gave them an education ?! laughing
  • Tambov-there is god
    Tambov-there is god 10 February 2021 13: 22
    0
    The "Storm" has two islands - this is idiocy, it is hard for airplanes to maneuver, and here obstacles are piled up, if only like impudent ones. The "Manatee" has too short a corner deck like the "Kuznetsov" - this is, the main thing is not takeoff, the main thing is landing .. The "Varan" has no speed like a dirt-carrier scow and jumps, but the island moved forward is good, there is nothing to park chop the island. But the aircraft lifts should be made out so as not to take up space from the deck. Well, it looks like a mirror photo.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Burdock
    Burdock 8 March 2021 11: 42
    0
    I have rich experience in modeling plastic, resin, cardboard. It's a hobby, but I see that it can also be a great job. The average salary in the country, 70 thousand, and everything is fine. My fakes will cost the state much cheaper than all these exhibition samples, and the main thing, the result will be from my work, and these design bureaus will be exactly the same - a model made of plastic, resin, cardboard. But in my case, much cheaper.
  • storm
    storm 8 March 2021 11: 52
    0
    The next 20 years, the Russian aircraft carrier will be made of plastic, two meters long ((:
  • sannyhome
    sannyhome 19 March 2021 12: 01
    0
    All go into space, and the RF into the water. Aircraft carriers, even in the United States, are considered ineffective and too expensive. Better invest this money in the space industry, satellites, rockets, orbiting drones, etc.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 19 March 2021 12: 43
    0
    Perhaps even a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier will be built at the Zvezda superyard. I do not exclude that it will be possible to scrape together a worthy escort. But how much will all this splendor cost? Shall we not go broke? And most importantly, for what intelligible purpose do we need an aircraft carrier? State prestige? It is difficult to talk about prestige when even the smallest and weakest neighboring countries laugh at Russia with impunity. And the aircraft carrier has no military expediency in our conditions. It is easier and more efficient to block puddles with coastal aircraft. In the north, especially not to roam - ice interfere. Here is the 22350M, a frigate with the power of a cruiser is a really worthy thing, so it should be dealt with in order for it to become the main ship. I have always said: Russia needs a strong coastal fleet. And the ocean is self-indulgence, especially given our poor economy.
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik April 2 2021 20: 57
    0
    Duc, I still do not understand, at a new stage of development, "young school" or "old" wins?
  • LSI_72
    LSI_72 April 24 2021 09: 31
    0
    We are a land power, we don't need an aircraft carrier
  • vel1163
    vel1163 1 May 2021 05: 14
    0
    Neither Varan nor Manatee