Combat losses of Hitlerite Germany and genocide of 13 million peaceful Slavs of the USSR (1941-1945)

This is the final article in a series about the losses of the USSR and Germany in the Great Patriotic War. In this final section, we will continue to look at Germany's combat and demographic losses.

In the period from June 22, 1941 to May 9, 1945, the demographic combat losses of the armed forces of Nazi Germany and the SS troops ranged from 5 to 200 people. Of these, 000 died in captivity. Irrecoverable losses (including prisoners) were from 6 to 300.

It is also worth noting that for a long time, domestic sources did not take into account certain data when calculating the number of prisoners of war in the armed forces of Hitlerite Germany at the time of the end of military clashes in Europe.

Perhaps this was done for purely ideological reasons. Agree, the fanned myth that Europe allegedly zealously resisted fascism, a certain category of the public pours balm on the soul. Whereas the truth about the actual state of affairs on the European continent, when a gigantic number of European residents either worked for the Wehrmacht or fought in the ranks of the Hitlerite army, is bitter and joyless. In addition, most Europeans accepted Nazism in their souls and fought for Hitler consciously and willingly.

According to a note made by General Antonov and dated 25.09.1945/5/200, the Red Army captured 000 Wehrmacht soldiers. But already by August of the same year, after passing the testing and filtration measures, 600 were released. This category of prisoners was not sent to the NKVD camps. Among those freed then were Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Poles, etc.

It turns out that the irrecoverable losses of the Hitlerite army in the battles with the USSR in fact could have been slightly higher (we are talking about another 600-000 people).

Another way to count

There is another way of calculating the losses of the German armed forces in the Great Patriotic War. Some experts consider it correct. It is to substitute indicators that are fair for Germany into the methodology for calculating the total demographic losses of the Soviet Union.

In this case, we will begin to use only official information from German science.

In general, the demographic picture in Germany in 1939 was as follows. On page 700 of his book, Müller-Hillebrandt (who is adored by the bodyfill theory) points out that the pre-war country had a population of 80 million.

It should be understood that this figure includes 6 Austrians. And also the inhabitants of the Sudetenland, who then numbered another 760 people. In total, there were 000 people.

Thus, in order to understand how many there were exclusively inhabitants of Germany at that time, it follows from the total figure to subtract Austrians and Sudeten Germans, respectively (80-600). In other words, (within the borders of 000), according to statistics for 10, only in Germany lived (70) 200 000 human.

Then it should be remembered that in those years in the Soviet Union the natural mortality rate was high and reached 1,5% per year. But in Western Europe, this figure was significantly lower during the same period. The figures ranged from 0,6 to 0,8%. And I must say that Germany was no exception in this regard then.

As for the birth rate, in the Soviet Union, we recall that in those years it exceeded the countries of Europe in approximately the same ratio. That guaranteed the USSR an annual increase in residents since 1934 and throughout the pre-war period.

Population census in Germany

After the war, a population census was carried out in the USSR. Its results have been made public. But much less is known about the fact that a similar census procedure was also organized in post-war Germany. It was carried out by the allied occupation authorities on October 29.10.1946, XNUMX.

The German population census showed the following statistics:

Soviet zone of occupation (excluding East Berlin):
male population - 7,
female population - 9.
Total: 17 people.

All western zones of occupation (excluding West Berlin):
male population - 20,
female population - 24.
Total: 45 people.

Berlin (all sectors of occupation):
male population - 1,
female population - 1.
Total: 3 people.

To get the total, add up the totals of residents of all three above categories. It turns out that the entire population in Germany at the time of the census was 65 people.

Now, from the aforementioned pre-war 70 people (statistics for 200), we subtract those who lived in Germany in the post-war 000. It turns out arithmetically (1939 minus 1946) that the decrease was 70 inhabitants. But not everything was so simple.

When the census was organized, it was recorded in the Soviet Union that almost 1941 million children had been born since January 11. Naturally, during the war years, the birth of babies was significantly reduced. As a percentage of the pre-war population, newborns then appeared only 1,37% annually.

In Germany, no more than 2% of children (of the total population) were born even without war. For example, in wartime, the birth rate there did not fall as sharply as in the USSR (three times in our country), but less - by about two times.

Then the natural increase in population during the war, together with the full first year after the war, was approximately equal to 5% of the pre-war number. And this is approximately 3–500 children.

It is this value that must be added to the final value that we received above, as an indicator characterizing the decline in the population in Germany (decline).

It turns out a simple arithmetic operation. The sought-after decrease in the population of Germany consists of 4 plus 200. The total is 000 people.

However, this figure is also not the final amount.

The fact is that for a complete picture, one should also subtract those who died of natural causes during all the war years and in the first post-war year. And according to statistics, there were 2 Germans. (Please note that we took the natural mortality rate as 800%).

Thus, (7 minus 700) we get the total loss of German residents as a result of the war with Russia / USSR for the period from 000 to 2: 800.

This figure, in essence, is quite consistent and very close to those indicators that Müller-Hillebrandt announced as irrecoverable losses of the Reich ground forces.

Well, really, with such a ratio (almost five million Nazis in Germany and twenty-six million Soviet citizens), the Germans have the right to accuse the Union of "piling up corpses" on the land of the Nazis?

Rather the opposite. It was the fascists who treacherously attacked Russia / the USSR (in my understanding, the European Nazi horde) literally strewn our native land with innocent civilians who were shot, tortured in concentration camps and killed by the Red Army. Is not it?

But these are still not the final figures of our calculations.

Let's try to complete the calculations.

Forced resettlement

There is one more nuance.

It should also be borne in mind that the population of Germany itself in the post-war year (1946) increased by approximately 6 people. And some sources indicate an even higher figure. It turns out that its growth was recorded at once by 500 million people.

We are talking, of course, about forcibly displaced (evicted to Germany) persons.

By the way, according to German primary sources and data published in 1996 by the Union of the Expelled, in total, about 15 million Germans alone were “forcibly displaced”.

Thus, it is known that at the date of the 1946 census, 6 Germans were forcibly resettled to Germany only from such regions as the Sudetenland, Poznan and Upper Silesia.

There were about a million and a half more Germans who fled to Germany from Lorraine and Alsace. (No precise data available).

It turns out exactly these same 6-500 people and should be added to the true losses directly to Germany.

And this gives us completely different numbers.

To begin with, let us determine the arithmetic mean of those forcibly relocated to historical the homeland of people of German nationality. There were 7 of them.

Then we add to them the decline in the German population calculated by us above. It turns out (7 plus 250) twelve million plus (000). And this figure is equal in percentage to 4 (%) of the actual inhabitants of Germany in 900.

However, this is not the final result.

Third Reich

Let's pay attention once again to the fact that the Third Reich, which fought against the USSR, is not only Germany.

By the beginning of the war with the USSR, according to official data, the following were included in the Third Reich:

Germany - 70 people,
Austria - 6 760 000 people,
Sudetes - 3 people,
"Baltic Corridor", Poznan and Upper Silesia (captured from Poland) - 9 people,
Luxembourg, Lorraine and Alsace - 2 people,
Upper Carinthia (cut off from Yugoslavia).

That is, in general - (92) 160 000 human.

All these regions were incorporated into the Reich at that time. And their inhabitants were drafted into the Wehrmacht.

Let us make a reservation right away that we will not include the "Imperial Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia", as well as the "General Government of Poland" in our calculations. Despite the fact that these territories also supplied recruits to the Wehrmacht, which fought with the USSR.

Moreover, one must understand that all these regions of the Reich until 1945 were controlled by the Nazis of Germany and supplied them with new fighters.

In order to finally calculate the losses of the Third Reich, we need one assumption.

We will proceed, first of all, from the fact that we know the losses of Austria. And they are estimated at 300 people. Which is 000% of the total population of this state for the period that we are studying.

Of course, in percentage terms, Austria's own losses were much lower than those of Germany as a whole.

However, we believe that it will not be an exaggeration to assume that other regions of the Third Reich had, in percentage terms, approximately the same human losses as Austria (4,43%).

Then we get that their losses (without Germany and without Austria) amounted to 673 people.

And now you can calculate the total demographic losses of the Third Reich.
12 (as we calculated above - Germany) plus 150 (known: Austria) plus 000 (other regions included in the Third Reich).

We leave on (13) 050 000 human.

This figure is already with a high degree of probability similar to the truth and most of all close to the real one.

This includes more 500-000 civilian deaths Reich. (By the way, this is exactly how many peaceful Europeans from the countries of the Third Reich died during the entire Great Patriotic War.

Now we need to subtract the dead civilians from these total demographic losses of the Third Reich. We will receive irrecoverable losses of the armed forces of the Third Reich. This is 12 million soldiers.

Let us recall that the Germans themselves, when calculating the damage in manpower of their armed forces in the East, calculate them as 70-80% of the total demographic losses on all fronts. In this case, if you follow their own logic, it turns out that directly in the battle with the USSR the Nazis lost about 9 troops irrevocably (75% of 12).

Naturally, not all of these servicemen were killed.

Therefore, an adjustment is needed.

According to reports, 2 people were released.
Died in captivity (prisoners of war) - 380.
Missing, but not captured (we take it as “killed” according to Russian historiography) - 700.

Thus, with a fairly high degree of probability, it can be clarified that actually killed and died from wounds and in captivity the armed forces of the Third Reich lost about 5-600 people during the campaign against the Soviet Union / Russia.

The ratio of enemy losses
Irrevocable
Based on the obtained figures, the ratio of irrecoverable losses of the armed forces of the Soviet Union / Russia to those of the armed forces of the Third Reich (without allies) will be
1,3:1.

Combat
And the ratio of the combat losses of the Red Army (according to the Krivosheev's team) to those in the Reich army is
1,6:1 .

Baseline data for calculating total demographic losses in Germany
The population in 1939 is 70 million people.
The population in 1946 was 65 people.
The natural mortality rate is 2,8 million people.
Natural increase (birth rate) 3,5 million people.
Emigration inflow of 7 people.

Calculation formula
("Population in 1939" minus "Population in 1946" minus "Natural mortality") plus "Natural increase" plus "Emigration flow" equals "Total demographic losses".

Counting Algorithm
(70 minus 200 minus 000) plus 65 plus 930 equals 000.

Сonclusion
The total losses in Germany amounted to 12 people.

That is only every tenth German died.

А only one in twelve was captured.

Some conclusions

When writing this article, we assumed that all the initial data are known. They are publicly available. The numbers can be found both in books and on the internet.

Let us recall that we call the USSR Russia not by chance and deliberately.

From our point of view, the united Nazi Europe at that time was at war with Russia (as a civilization and as a country that until 1917 was called the "Russian Empire", and after 1917, it did not cease to be the same Russia at all, only for some time (in historical retrospect) changed its official name to the abbreviation - USSR).

So, there is a lot of information. But they are located on various resources and need at least systematization. And those that are placed in the special literature, among other things, also need a kind of accessible presentation.

In addition, in our purely personal opinion, there is no one hundred percent trust in many sources. Since both sides underestimated their own losses, and the enemy's losses were overestimated. Both that, and another - were distorted by about two or three times. In addition, many authors openly speculated with facts and figures, parasitizing on the topic of war. And some of the liberals today, in general, use fake tricks with numbers to deliberately distort and rewrite our history. Moreover, the oppositionists do not hide their admiration for the West and are replicating the versions of Hitler's failed campaign to the East that Europe needs.

It cannot be accepted that some authors cling to German sources, exaggerating and idealizing their reliability. But, the German historians themselves admit that their German statistics of those years are far from the truth.

Irrecoverable losses of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union / Russia in the Great Patriotic War amounted to 11-500 people irrevocably.

The actual combat demographic losses of the USSR / Russia - 8-700 people.

The losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS troops on the Eastern Front are estimated at 8–000 irrevocably. Of these, purely combat demographic - 000 8 900-000 5 200 (including those who died in captivity) people.

Among the purely German losses of the armed forces on the Eastern Front, the losses of the regional countries included in the Third Reich at that time should also be counted. That is, 850 people were killed (with those who died in captivity). And also 000 prisoners.

The total losses of Germany are then calculated in the interval with a minimum value of 9 and a maximum of 050 people.

And here a natural question should be asked:

“Well, where is the replicated“ filling Germany with corpses ”?

What is constantly being trumpeted in the West? Yes, and in Russia they sing about this no less on the pages of opposition publications?

55% - 23%
This is the percentage of prisoners of war killed (Russia – Germany).
In the dungeons of the enemy camps, at least 55% of Soviet prisoners of war died (even according to the mildest estimates).

While the German prisoners, by the largest standards, died, then no more than 23%.

Is it possible that such a difference in the dead is the result of the inhuman conditions in which the Nazis kept our prisoners?

Official version of losses 2020

And now about the official figures.

In 2020, the Federal State Statistics Service released an anniversary statistical collection for the 75th anniversary of Victory [url = https: //rosstat.gov.ru/storage/mediabank/VOV_75_fin.pdf], which contains official data on human losses, as the USSR / Russia and Germany. Moreover, this collection contains information specified based on the results of the latest research by German and Russian scientists.

In particular, in the section "Losses of the armed forces" on page 273 of this document, there is a table "The ratio of the number of irrecoverable losses of the armed forces of Germany, its allies and the Red Army with the allies on the Soviet-German front from June 22, 1941 to May 9, 1945. ". From this table, we present the following official data (updated for 2020).

Irrecoverable losses accounted for in the course of the war on an operational basis on an accrual basis:

Armed forces of Germany and its allies (troops of Hungary, Italy, Romania, Finland, Slovakia):
Germany - 8 876 300 (85,8%).
Allies of Germany - 1 (468%).
In total - 10 344 500 (100%).

Armed forces of the USSR and its allies (troops of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia):
USSR - 11 444 100 (99,3%).
Allies of the USSR - 76 (100%)
Total - 11 520 200 (100%)

Germany: Russia Ratio
1:1,1

Demographic losses (excluding those who returned from captivity, as well as recruited into the troops)

Armed forces of Germany and its allies (troops of Hungary, Italy, Romania, Finland, Slovakia):
Germany - 5 965 900 (88,1%).
Allies of Germany - 806 (000%).
In total - 6 771 900 (100%).

Armed forces of the USSR and its allies (troops of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia):
USSR - 8 668 400 (99,1%).
Allies of the USSR - 76 (100%).
In total - 8 744 500 (100%).

Germany: Russia Ratio
1:1,29

Genocide of the Slavic civilian population

But now, about the deliberate extermination by the Nazis of our civilian population in the USSR / Russia should be said separately.

According to the data of the Federal State Statistics Service updated for 2020 the Nazis killed 13 684 692 civilians during the Nazi occupation of the western territories of the USSR.

What is this if not the genocide of the Slavic people?

These 13,7 million civilians of the Soviet Union, deliberately exterminated in the territory temporarily occupied by the Germans (intentionally destroyed by the Slavs), according to official figures, consisted of three categories:

deliberately exterminated - (7) 420 379 human,
killed in forced labor in Germany - (2) 164 313 people (out of the total number of all stolen 5 people),
those who died from the harsh conditions of the occupation regime (hunger, infectious diseases, lack of medical care, etc.) - (4) 100 000 human.

Pay attention to the ethnic composition of these 7 420 379 (broken down by republic) peaceful Slavs, intentionally exterminated at their place of residence:

RSFSR - 1 800 000,
Ukrainian SSR - 3,
Belarusian SSR - 1,
Lithuanian SSR - 370,
Latvian SSR - 313 798 (including 100 inhabitants of Lithuania),
Estonian SSR - 61,
Moldavian SSR - 64,
Karelo-Finnish SSR - 8028.

So what happens? Ordinary people (in total, this is 13 684 692) of our country, the Nazis killed even 2 240 592 people more than military personnel armed forces of the USSR (official irrecoverable losses of 11 444 100 of our soldiers and officers)?

That is, it should be finally recognized and declared that this it was the Germans who filled our homeland with a sea of ​​corpses? And certainly not the other way around.

Even according to overestimated estimates, the number of victims of the civilian population in Germany and the entire Reich is estimated at 3. Then how the Germans, it turns out, exterminated Soviet civilians with impunity by at least 200 million more?

The ratio of civilians killed in Germany and in the USSR is as follows (according to the most inflated estimates of the Germans):
3: 200
1:4,28.

And since they do not count people in halves, it would be more correct and ethical to write it down like this:
1:5.

Based on such a disproportionate picture, a completely reasonable question arises:

"The Nazis and their European allies, it turns out, planned and coolly carried out the genocide of 13,7 million civilians of the predominant Slavic nation?"

But now let's remember our calculations. After all, real figures show that (we repeat) only 500-000 civilians in the regions of the Reich (including Germany) actually died. The arithmetic mean between these extreme limits is 750 people.

And then the picture is even more eloquent.

The real ratio of the dead civilians in the European Reich and in the USSR in 1941-1945. looks like that:
625: 000
1:22.

Gentlemen, Europeans! Yes, this is genocide! For one dead German civilian, there are 22 killed peaceful Slavs ?!

Moreover, this is still nowhere and not a recorded genocide. Not in a single document. Not in a single act. Not in any chronicle. Not in a single chronicle. Nowhere in history. Nowhere.

But it really was a massacre of the Slavs, in the truest sense of the word. Thirteen Million Lives Including Children! Where are we, Slavayan brothers? Why are we silent about this? That Hitler managed to slaughter 13 million Slavs? Peaceful, innocent, unarmed?

But the Jews rallied after all? And in honor of their 1–2 million murdered fellows, they created a gigantic and well-functioning memory industry called the "Holocaust of the Jews." With museums and memorials, with books, poems and films ...

But our relatives (and this is 13 million unarmed brothers and Slavs killed by European fascism in our native land), it turns out, they are still just waiting for our memorials, memorable lists, poems, books and films about this unprecedented cruelty in the history of Russia genocide of the Slavs!

Take a look at another ratio of numbers.

For example, this is how the ratio of the irrecoverable losses of the armed forces of Germany itself to the number of peaceful unarmed Soviet population destroyed by the Germans looks like:
8: 876
1:1,54

It turns out that every Hitlerite (killed) took his life at least two civilians in the USSR? And this is in addition to the soldiers of the Soviet Union who died on the battlefield.

At the same time, those eight million Krauts perished on the battlefields. Under all the might of the Soviet weapons... And the 13 million peaceful and unarmed Slavs? Their Euroord Nazis killed more than one and a half times more than the Wehrmacht soldiers were killed! Why are we silent about this?

All fascists (and Germans and their European allies) were killed 10 million. And our peaceful unarmed people - thirteen million. And just because there was an anti-Slavic trend in the ideology of Europe in those years?

What is this, in fact, if not a real genocide of peaceful unarmed Slavic citizens?

We add that German society today does not deny the Holocaust of the Jews. However, German, and even more so European society, still does not perceive the "Slavic" Holocaust as a fact and does not recognize the genocide of the Slavs as such. Not officially, not publicly.

This organized mass extermination of the Slavs of the USSR by the fascists as a monstrous crime against the Slavic peoples in Europe for some reason prefer to "modestly" keep silent. Moreover, this is not being spoken about not only in the West, but also in our country.

The evasion of our intelligentsia and the so-called "stars": scientists, researchers, poets, writers, actors, politicians, artists and other celebrities from public discussion of this topic, from my point of view, is shameful. And not worthy of the memory of all the fallen unarmed citizens of the USSR from the monsters-fascists in that Great Patriotic War.

We sacredly honor the memory of the Red Army soldiers who perished in the struggle against fascism. We erect monuments to them. Installing obelisks. We write books about them and make films. Even the missing soldiers can now be found, thanks to the declassified archives of TsAMO and open access to the database of all the fighters participating in the war.

But for some reason we have a different attitude to the civilians killed for no reason - victims of the genocide of the Slavs in 1941-1945. There is still no way to find relatives destroyed by the Nazis. They have no graves. There are no commemorative plaques. There are no memory books. In general, there is still no such page in the history of our country as the genocide of the Slavs in 1941-1945.

Why?

Why is it still not accepted to speak openly about the phenomenon of the “Slavic Holocaust” in 1941-1945 as an unprecedented genocide of the Slavic people, carried out by the European Nazi horde? And neither from the high tribunes, nor from the pages of publications, not only in the world, but even here in Russia, this deliberate and purposeful genocide of the Slavic peoples (41-45) is still not resolved either to recognize or condemn.

I think this is blasphemous and unfair.

This is important to pass on to our descendantsso that such a crime against humanity will never happen again.

It is necessary to realize this for us, alive... To write this crime forever in the history of mankind as a "massacre of 13 million Slavs" or as a "Slavic Holocaust." And in order to restore their names and begin to sacredly honor the memory of all then untimely perished.

Finally, they need it... To those 13,7 million ordinary nameless Slavs, whom the fascist united Europe in just four years (from 1941 to 1945) mowed, killed, tortured and shot.

Indeed, until the truth about this mass atrocity committed by the collective West becomes universally recognized as the “genocide of 13 million Slavs”, for all of them (then innocent civilians of the Soviet Union), the Great Patriotic War will still remain unfinished.

Comments

[avia12005]

Russia itself, first of all, must officially recognize the destruction of the civilian population of the USSR in 1941-1945 as genocide. And urge all republics to do the same b. THE USSR. Without this step, everything will remain as calls to emptiness. Hello, State Duma, where are you?

[Lech from Android.]

Hello, State Duma, where are you?

The State Duma has all its thoughts on January 31 ... This authority has long ago broken away from the problems of ordinary people ... in the elections of deputies to the new State Duma I will vote for people who recognize the destruction of the civilian population of the USSR in 1941-1945 as genocide.

[Olgovich]

Quote: avia12005

Russia itself, first of all, must officially recognize the destruction of the civilian population of the USSR in 1941-1945 as genocide.

I must admit, of course.

But you need to understand that effect in the world from this it will be much and much lower than if the genocide of the people was recognized by the USSR IMMEDIATELY after the war... If there is one at all.

In our country, not only did they not do this, but the very figure of losses was generally hidden for a long time: what did the Soviet people and the whole world know about them?

In 1946 it was announced ...7 million losses.

And only in 1961, they said about 20 million.

If the USSR itself was silent about the terrible losses, then who will talk about them?

And today's figure of losses sounded in general more than FORTY years after the war!



author:

In the USSR na census was taken after the war population. Its results made public... But much less is known about the fact that a similar census procedure was also organized in post-war Germany. It was carried out by the allied occupation authorities on October 29.10.1946, XNUMX.

complete ignorance of the issue - there was no census of the population of the USSR after the war: the first census after the Second World War took place as much in 1959 g and there is simply nothing to compare with the census in Germany in '46.

Author:

What the USSR guaranteed annual population growth since 1934 and throughout the pre-war period.

Yes:
Stalin, 1934: "the population of the USSR -168 млн person"
Population census of the USSR, total people - 162 млн human.

To call Estonians, Moldovans, Finns, Karelians, etc., as the author did, is so strange that there are no words at all ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

In our country, not only did they not do this, but the very figure of losses was generally hidden for a long time: what did the Soviet people and the whole world know about them?

Anti-Sovietism Doesn't Allow You to Think Soberly? How did you decide that you were "hiding"? They just didn't know. Nobody did the calculations. There was no time for that. Why - 7 and not 20? What would the truth give? Add even more grief, and so huge, to the souls of people?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Anti-Sovietism does not allow to think soberly? How did you decide that you were "hiding"? They just didn't know. Nobody did the calculations. Not before that.

the opposite makes it impossible to think and know: everyone believed everything, knew already in 1945 d, but they said something completely different, which has nothing to do with the truth.

в June 1945... Colonel Podolsky, the head of the Department of accounting and control over the size of the Armed Forces, prepared a certificate "On the combat losses of the personnel of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War", according to which only the losses of military personnel (excluding 13 thousand wounded, of which 960 thousand were disabled) amounted to 9675 thousand people., including prisoners and missing persons - 3 344 thousand

And by the fall of the same year, the Extraordinary State Commission (CHGK), created in November 1942, had already completed the calculations of the losses of the country's civilian population and summarized them in a document with the name "On the results of the investigation of the bloody crimes of the German-fascisttheir invaders and their accomplices. " According to him, during the occupation of Soviet territory, the Nazis exterminated by shooting, hanging, burning, poisoning in "gas chambers" and gas chambers, burial alive, torture and torture, as well as a well-thought-out inhuman system of hunger, exhaustion and the spread of infectious diseases in concentration camps 6 civilians of the USSR and 716 prisoners of war.

And in 1946 they announced ... 7 million losses. And they refused to carry out the census and the calculations that were already available were not announced. to hide political and strategic mistakes and miscalculations on the eve and in the first half of the war, when the country was on the brink of disaster. And ALL countries, yes, held it.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What would the truth give? Add even more grief, and so huge, to the souls of people?

1. What nonsense: people knew very well about their dead relatives and friends and they could not add grief.

2. People are not dumb animals and have a right to know the truth about the price. paid by them и to nobody the rights to conceal it were not transferred.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

to hide political and strategic mistakes and miscalculations on the eve and in the first half of the war,

What to hide? Why hide? Who were they afraid of? What are you carrying a blizzard? Stalin was afraid to tell the truth because ... What?

[BMP-2]

Probably I missed something: so and Vlasov, Bandera and other forest brothers are considered as losses of Germany or as losses of the USSR? And they are considered as civilians or not so :?)

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What to hide?

Criminal mistakes

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Why hide?

To avoid being held back for criminal mistakes

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Who were they afraid of?

The people who paid the worst price

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What are you carrying a blizzard?

I don't understand your "give a damn": what are you talking about?

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Stalin was afraid to tell the truth because ... What?

Didn't get it the first time? To hide political and strategic mistakes and miscalculations on the eve and in the first half of the war, when the country was on the brink of disaster.

And again: People are not dumb animals and had the right to know the truth about the price ... paid by them and nicknamehave the right to conceal it did not pass.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Criminal mistakes

And what, and there are such?

Quote: Olgovich

The people who paid the worst price

Do not! It doesn't sound sincere in your mouth.

Quote: Olgovich

I don't understand your "give a damn": what are you talking about?

A person who loves his people cannot fail to understand youth slang

Quote: Olgovich

Didn't get it the first time? To hide political and strategic mistakes and miscalculations on the eve and in the first half of the war, when the country was on the brink of disaster.

No, it didn't. Explain. Why did the authorities hide "criminal" (!! ??) "political and strategic" mistakes and miscalculations? Were you afraid? What?
The fact that Stalin managed to force some bourgeoisie to fight, on the side of his ideological opponents, against other bourgeoisie, do you think these are "political mistakes"? But.

Quote: Olgovich

And again: People are not dumb animals and had the right to know the truth about the price. they paid and did not transfer the right to conceal it to anyone.

At a meeting, this sounds beautiful, of course. And what, from a practical point of view, will this "deliberately concealed" truth give the people?
You remind me of Partos - "I fight because I fight." Have you got rid of youthful maximalism yet? It's time, it's time.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And what, and there are such?

Yes, their consequence is the catastrophe of 41-42, unprecedented in the history of the world.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do not! It doesn't sound sincere in your mouth.

Do not! It sounds in your mouth insincerely.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

A person who loves his people cannot fail to understand youth slang

It is a prison slang, not youth

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

No, it didn't. Explain. Why did the authorities hide "criminal" (!! ??) "political and strategic" mistakes and miscalculations? Were you afraid? What?

Responsibility, demand, loss of trust

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

The fact that Stalin managed to force some bourgeoisie to fight, on the side of his ideological opponents, against other bourgeoisie, do you think these are "political mistakes"? but

Managed to stay ONE to ONE with all of Europe.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

At a meeting, this sounds beautiful, of course. And what, from a practical point of view, will this "deliberately concealed" truth give the people?

It sounds in the head of every normal person - a desire to know what they have achieved and at what PRICE.

People have not only the right to die, but also the right to know. And what-what-whom has given-nobody's business.

And yes - imagine the words of leadership about the need to hide losses

And you all perfectly understand why you are spinning?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Criminal mistakes

To listen to you, so you are an infallible person, a person who has not committed a single mistake in your life. Excluding the scale of the consequences, of course. So your mistakes were all criminal, or through one?

Quote: Olgovich

Do not! It sounds insincere on your lips.

Thank you.

Quote: Olgovich

This is prison slang, not youth

It means you do not communicate with young people. And I do not communicate with the criminal element.

Quote: Olgovich

Responsibility, demand, loss of trust

Do you think that the authorities were afraid of this? Are you joking? Do you believe yourself if you think so?

Quote: Olgovich

Managed to stay ONE to ONE with all of Europe.

Didn't know that Britain is an African state. But seriously, it is, but it is not his fault. The only country in the world building socialism. She, a priori, could not have allies. And yet they appeared. Thanks to the brilliant foreign policy of the USSR, in particular Stalin.

Quote: Olgovich

It sounds in the head of every normal person - a desire to know what they have achieved and at what PRICE.

And I already know that it is big. And even if the USSR lost three times less, for me the price would still be very high.
And for you not? Would you then accuse the authorities of hiding the truth?
So do you really need or personal satisfaction with the results?

Quote: Olgovich

And you all perfectly understand why you are spinning?

No, I don’t understand. Why do you need the truth in this matter? In order to once again throw a stone into the garden of the USSR?
That you are all sprinkling poison into the people who have taken upon themselves the inordinate work of leading the country during such a period?
Would you handle it? I’m sure not. So what do you then take the liberty of criticizing people for what you yourself could not do from the word at all?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

To listen to you, so you are an infallible person, a person who has not committed a single mistake in your life. Excluding the scale of the consequences, of course. So your mistakes were all criminal, or through one?

The cost of my - not millions of lives - caught the difference?

And yes, if, according to your foreman, for example, an oversight, unintentionally, someone suffers, you will be condemned for the crime

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Do you think that the authorities were afraid of this? Are you joking? Do you believe yourself if you think so?

I was still afraid, to a cold night sweat: I did not hold ANY elections: I didn’t trust the people at all. Therefore, she hid the truth about the millions of victims and cannibalism in the peaceful 1930s, about the victims in the war and after the war.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

But seriously, it is, but it is not his fault. The only country in the world building socialism. She, a priori, could not have allies. And yet they appeared. Thanks to the brilliant foreign policy of the USSR, in particular Stalin.

It's funny: how many YEARS did they run after Churchill and the United States to open the second front, did they forget? And when you opened it, do you remember? When we are BLOOD expired.

Great "achievement", yes.

And Russia in PMV-COULD achieve that the main victims on the Western Front, in contrast to the Second World War

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And I already know that it is big. And even if the USSR lost three times less, for me the price would still be very high.
And for you not? Would you then accuse the authorities of hiding the truth?
So do you really need or personal satisfaction with the results?

ANY, but the TRUTH is always NECESSARY for a person: for a correct assessment, development of behavior, measures, etc. WHAT is not clear?

And you personally always need the truth, do not deny the obvious

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

No, I don’t understand. Why do you need the truth in this matter? In order to once again throw a stone into the garden of the USSR?

Truth is not a stone, but a lie is he.

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

That you are all sprinkling poison into the people who have taken upon themselves the inordinate work of leading the country during such a period?

What is the poison? In ... truth? Yes, the leadership itself, read it, all the time declared that it was telling one truth and only the TRUTH.

I never said that I was committed to a lie. So I say HER.

[Illanatol]

20 million is US data based on CIA research. For the first time publicly voiced Kennedy in a conversation with Khrushchev.
There is no reason to revise this number. Direct losses of the USSR were like that. 27 million - demographic losses (+ drop in fertility for an obvious reason).

[Wertgan]

In the broad sense of the word, the State Duma has nothing to do with it. It is about our citizens and their worship of the so-called Western way of life. The point is the desire of the Russians to become the same as the inhabitants of Europe or America.

[Lech from Android.]

Because of this meat grinder arranged by Hitler's Germany, our people still cannot restore their normal numbers ... if it were not for this mass extermination of the civilian population, we would have had a normal increase in the population ... The West, represented by Germany in 1941, carried out genocide against peoples of the USSR ... not only against the Jews with its Holocaust, but also against the Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians and other peoples.

According to Filimoshin's research, this is the list of the peoples of the Soviet Union most affected by human losses:
Russians - 5 million 756 thousand (...
Ukrainians - 1 million 377 thousand (...
Belarusians - 252 thousand (2.917%);
Tatars - 187 thousand (2.165%);
Jews - 142 thousand (1.644%);
Kazakhs - 125 thousand (1.448%);
As you can see, the main blow fell on the Russian people, these are losses only for the military (they lost the most active and viable part of the population in this massacre) ... the Holocaust of the Jews is not worth it here and there ... these are the pies.

[Profiler]

Quote: Lech from Android.

According to Filimoshin's research, this is the list of the peoples of the Soviet Union most affected by human losses:
.....................
.....................
Belarusians - 252 thousand (2.917%);

Having seen the data you provided, I realized that it is not worth taking you seriously and Mr. Filimoshin.

Let me explain the fact of smaller (in percentage) losses of the RSFSR against the background of some other republics of the USSR.
The fact is that the most affected republics were occupied completely and for a longer time, and the territory of the RSFSR was only partially (with the exception of Crimea).

"Smaller losses", of course, is not evidence that "the Russians fought less", but only a reflection of the real situation with a larger population.

[user1212]

And your statistics should not be taken seriously. You are confusing nationality and place of residence. Why on earth would a Russian from, for example, Omsk, sent by a party to a factory in Belarus, suddenly become a Belarusian? And how many were evacuated along with the enterprises, and who settled anywhere in Siberia? And how many fled to the rear on their own, driven to Germany and returned after the war, but did not return to the territory of the republics? How were they subtracted from the list of losses?
In the statistics of Germany's losses, I am always surprised by something else. It turns out that at the time of 1946 in Germany, under 30 million male population lived quietly, then why was the Hitler Youth sent into battle in 1945? Why was the Reichstag building protected by foreign SS formations? Why even before Kursk, in 1943, did Germany rake out the last manpower reserves under the draft? Somehow it doesn't fit

[Profiler]

Quote: user1212

And your statistics should not be taken seriously. You are confusing nationality and place of residence. Why on earth would a Russian from, for example, Omsk, sent by a party to a factory in Belarus, suddenly become a Belarusian?

I will reveal to you such a "phenomenon" - Jewwho from time immemorial lived on the territory of Belarus, or Pole, from its western part, annexed to the BSSR / USSR in 1939, also does not become a Belarusian

I did not divide the dead by ethnicity, but only gave really statistics by place of residence.

How to share ???
The Armenians who lived on the territory of the RSFSR in the Crimea - in one column, Greeks - in another, Tatars - in the third, Karaites - in the fourth, and so on?

[user1212]

Quote: Profiler

I will reveal to you such a "phenomenon" - a Jew

This phenomenon is a phenomenon to all phenomena, but more on that below :)))

Quote: Profiler

I did not divide the victims according to ethnicity, but only gave really statistics by place of residence.

But the "Leha" above is the statistics on nationality. What's so strange about your statistics not converging?

Quote: Profiler

How to share ???
The Armenians who lived on the territory of the RSFSR in the Crimea - in one column, Greeks - in another, Tatars - in the third, Karaites - in the fourth, and so on?

This is the problem with all loss statistics. How to take into account all the nuances of the war period ...
For example, if a Jew, a soldier of the Red Army, deserted with arms and went over to the side of Germany, worked as a hivi, was surrounded with a German unit and was taken prisoner by the soldiers of the spacecraft, after which he died in the camp from pneumonia. Whose loss is this? We can only say for certain that this is a victim of the Holocaust

[avia12005]

And how many Jews so surrendered to the Germans and were captured by the Red Army? Figures in the studio ... Jews, communists and commissars, fascists immediately, without understanding ...

[user1212]

Quote: avia12005

And how many Jews so surrendered to the Germans and were captured by the Red Army?

Who knows. This story is generally made up as an example of the difficulty of estimating losses. And in general, during the Second World War, about 10 Jews were taken prisoner (as soldiers of the Wehrmacht)

Quote: avia12005

Jews, communists and commissars, the fascists immediately, without understanding ...

Contrary to popular belief, Jews do not always have nationality on their faces
For example, also a Jew

[Lech from Android.]

Jews, communists and commissars, the fascists immediately, without understanding ...

There were also such Jews ...
Aryan Wehrmacht soldier Werner Goldberg

[voyaka uh]

1/4 Jew. His Jewish relatives died in a concentration camp.
Learning about this on vacation, he left the army and drank himself to death. He was not touched.

[Lech from Android.]

Warsaw ghetto., Jewish auxiliary police.

Kaminsky's Cossacks in the service of Hitler.
Each nation has its own righteous and renegades.
Don't just make excuses for the renegades.

[user1212]

Quote: Lech from Android.

Each nation has its own righteous and renegades.

I totally agree. But here's the caveat. We have defectors, policemen and others. Everyone who was found. Some were shot on the basis of a military field sentence, there was such a thing. Now, remind you what is the status of the former "employees" of these very ghettos in Israel? Those who made the lists for sending to the concentration camp, helped to find the hiding, loaded and guarded? The Jewish people really suffered great losses during the Second World War, and maybe it really shouldn't have been worth judging them to the highest degree, but equating them with the victims of the Holocaust is a bit too much, isn't it?

[Lech from Android.]

In post-war Israel, a Jew used the most obscene word "kapo" to insult another Jew. Kapo is a privileged prisoner in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany, who worked for the administration and oversees the daily life of ordinary prisoners.

https://ivan-melnic667.livejournal.com/14566.html
Interesting pictures of Jewish policemen there.
I have not seen such yet ... live a century ... learn a century.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Lech from Android.

I have not seen such yet ... live a century ... learn a century.

I didn't see the same thing, but I heard stories from an Auschwitz survivor ... I got it as a child - for disobedience (the Ostarbeiter was taken from Belarus), so the number on the wrist was full of the arm ...

[sniperino]

Quote: user1212

to equate them with the victims of the Holocaust is a bit too much, isn't it?

The Holocaust is, according to the faith of the Jews, the promise of the coming of the Messiah after, if I am not mistaken, 6 million Jews will be killed in a short time. This explains the sacredness of the sacrifice, and not because the lives of non-Jews do not matter. Although, it is impossible to explain the criminal penalties for attempts by historians in different countries to question this death toll.

[avia12005]

No one argues with that. But then we were talking about the Jews who fought in the Red Army. Such as, for example, a tanker twice Hero of the Soviet Union Dragunsky. Or the Hero of the Soviet Union Marine Corps Kunnikov. That's why I asked where infa about "a Jew, a soldier of the Red Army, deserted with arms and went over to the side of Germany, worked as a hivi, was surrounded with a German unit and was taken prisoner by the soldiers of the spacecraft, after which he died in the camp from pneumonia." If there is no information, this is slander. You can go to court as an "oppositionfuehrer".

[user1212]

Quote: avia12005

That's why I asked where infa about

Well, you so shyly kept silent about the beginning of my post?

Quote: user1212

For example, if a Jew, a soldier of the Red Army, deserted with arms and crossed ...

Offended you with such a "vile" assumption? Oh, wey :)

[avia12005]

Can you give at least one real example, oh, wey :) Last name, date of surrender ...


Or blurt out something, and then into the bushes - is this the principle of life?

[antivirus]

antivirus 3 November 20, 2016 12:36
antivirus Today, 11: 59 ↑
Sergei Gavrilovich Semenov, 1931, d. Maksimovo, Staritsky district of the Kalinin region: “We were under the German for a month and a half, but nearby, near Rzhev 1,5 g, they didn’t count us as people. They could easily kill us” At 10, the child understood instinctively, everyday communication, glances and beat, drove out of the hut.
+ the elder brother died at the front, and 2 more were blown up on the remaining supplies in the ground (which ones? I dismantled out of curiosity, but I don’t know)
Reply Quote Complaint More ...
++ even earlier, he said-- "the first doctor to go was a military doctor, oh gut ... gave a harmonica and a chocolate bar"
NEXT WAS - SEE THE FIRST PART

[Lech from Android.]

Having seen the data you provided, I realized that it is not worth taking you seriously and Mr. Filimoshin.

And I don't take you seriously ...
In my city there is a stele with the names of 30000 dead Novosibirsk residents who went to war.
I read the lists of the dead by name ... so in percentage terms, it was the Russians who died the most, I respect all those who died regardless of nationality ... but since the Jews talk about their Holocaust, why shouldn't we talk about the Holocaust of our people? ... so don't la la.
Attempts to turn a Russian person into Ivan who does not remember kinship are constantly being made on the forum by various personalities.
Why do Armenians, Greeks, Tatars honor the heroes of their people, and why do you deny our people this right?

[Unknown]

Quote: Profiler

Having seen the data you provided, I realized that it is not worth taking you seriously and Mr. Filimoshin.

Well, you need to calm down, Filimoshin does not take into account the losses among civilians in his book. Different studies, different calculations ..... Belarusian experts also cited their statistics. They claim that the Second World War claimed the lives of a third of the population of the Republic of Belarus. Professor Emmanuil Ioffe believes that about 1 civilians who lived on the territory of the Republic of Belarus died in those years. At the same time, about 845 of them were Jews who lived in the same place, in Belarus. Another, Leonid Leonidovich Rybakovsky, went a little further: this man investigated the military losses among civilians, and calculated that about 000 million Russian civilians died, and about 715 million civilians died.

Peaceful Belarusians died due to the war 1,7 million. Losses among the civilian population, it seems to me, is generally impossible to calculate, the war is a ruthless thing, in some places it swept not once, twice, but three times, the fronts stood for months, and the population suffered the most.
Lost it, but there is nothing to divide the dead, they are all OURS, regardless of nationality.

[Lech from Android.]

Well, we need to calm down, Filimoshin does not take into account the losses among civilians in his book.

In my commentary, I said that these are losses only among the military ... the comrade apparently did not carefully read the comments.

Well, there is nothing to divide the victims, they are all OUR, regardless of nationality.

But you need to know ... so that someone does not later talk about the billions of babies that Stalin ate, an objective assessment is always important for the real perception of the world ... you cannot always show the world in pink.
I saw enough of these photos before burping ... and I try to proceed from the worst options.

[Unknown]

Quote: Lech from Android.

But you need to know ... so that someone does not later talk about the billions of babies eaten by Stalin, an objective assessment is always important for the real perception of the world ... you cannot always show the world in pink

I agree that an objective assessment is needed, and if we go back to the losses of the Wehrmacht, SS and others, then there is no way to get around, these ...

Where to count them? Everyone diligently avoids this topic. Will they also be added to the losses of the USSR? So if the traitors are attributed to the losses of the Germans and others, then the picture will be different.

[Lech from Android.]

Where to count them? Everyone diligently avoids this topic.

According to the laws of wartime, this is an enemy, shoot ... and if they hang war crimes behind their souls ... count them as enemy losses.
I don't consider such Russians ... scoundrels and renegades in the service of the enemy. There are some amazing quirks, though.
General Denikin, the worst enemy of Soviet power, refused to serve Hitler ... General Vlasov, Stalin's favorite, sold his soul to Hitler ... General Karbyshev, a former lieutenant colonel of the tsarist army, heroically accepted his death in the Mauthausen concentration camp ... refusing to serve the fascists.

[user1212]

Quote: Lech from Android.

According to the laws of wartime, this is an enemy, shoot ... and if they hang war crimes behind their souls ... count them as enemy losses.

Easy to say but harder to do. After the war, many returned from captivity, the living were judged for how many years (he was taken prisoner unconscious or surrendered himself with weapons, betrayed the communists, knocked in the camp, the Germans had everything written down in their personal files), let alone the dead ...

[Lech from Android.]

That is the trouble with us now ... Soviet power was good for such ... Comrade Stalin took pity on them.
Now this kindness backfires on us ... Nazis of all stripes are again raising their heads ... for the US State Department they are excellent material in the fight against Russia.

[Unknown]

Quote: Lech from Android.

General Denikin, the worst enemy of Soviet power, refused to serve Hitler ... General Vlasov, Stalin's favorite, sold his soul to Hitler ... General Karbyshev, a former lieutenant colonel of the tsarist army, heroically accepted his death in the Mauthausen concentration camp ... refusing to serve the fascists.

That is why Denikin did this, and Vlasov sold out, we need to figure it out. I grew up in the USSR, and lived in the Soviet Union for almost 30 years, and my worldview, as some commentators say, is “soviet,” and I don’t change it, I was not brought up that way. And I will honestly say that the USSR within the borders of R. and suited me. But the current stump called R.F. not. In the same way, some generals of the White Immigration understood and supported the revival of the USSR within the borders of the Republic of India, realizing that it became possible, whatever one may say, under Soviet rule. But ,, Vlasovschina ,, by the way, that traitor did not go to ,, pets ,, Comrade STALIN they do not care about the country, the main thing is that the owner allowed and issued a label for the reign, and in figs on the country. In this regard, THEY are similar to the current one, they also do not value anything, profited from all the Victory achievements paid for such a valuable one. For example, such a statement .......... “Yes, thanks to the Lord God we can all uplift. The Russian land is not put to shame, but even, on the contrary, is ascending higher and higher, and who knows - just now, what we only dreamed of will come true: the unification of the Slavs and access to the free seas. And we must give justice - the preparation for war, both in the moral sense and in the material sense, is simply amazing. It is not for nothing that now the sub-Soviet people say: "Now we understand why we did not have enough for life - everything went to prepare for war." Yes, great is the God of the Russian land. I always remember your final words: "Maybe it won't run." And now I always have in mind your other words: “The fate of Russia is more important than the fate of emigration.” These five words say everything and

[mat-vey]

Quote: Unknown

Everyone diligently avoids this topic.

Are you already starting to overtone in full - "The last battle of Major Pugachev" ...

[user1212]

Quote: Unknown

Professor Emmanuil Ioffe believes that about 1 civilians living in the territory of the Republic of Belarus died in those years. At the same time, about 845 of them were Jews who lived in the same place, in Belarus.

If my memory serves me, there were many Polish Jews who fled from the German occupation, and many of them were later resettled to Siberia from the territory of Belarus (this resettlement, as I recall, was also called an act of the Holocaust). So did they really die ...

[Avior]

And if you add the numbers together, how many affected Soviet people will turn out according to the figures you quoted and how does this compare with the fact that the generally accepted figures of losses are much higher?

[BAI]

Belarusians - 252 thousand (2.917%);

Every third or every fourth of Belarusians died. Are you saying that in 1941 there were less than one million?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Lech from Android.

Because of this meat grinder arranged by Hitler's Germany, our people still cannot restore their normal numbers ... if it were not for this mass extermination of the civilian population, we would have a normal

No, dear. Population growth will be only if most families have 3 children. If 2, then the number will not increase. And if in most families there is 1 child, as it is now in Russia (not to be confused with the Russian Federation), then regardless of the size of the population, it will decrease.

[Sergej1972]

According to the RF Constitution, the concepts of the Russian Federation and Russia are equivalent. You, like many, adhere to the false concept that the Russian Federation is a kind of federation of Russia and other entities. This is not true. The name "Russian Federation" simply means that Russia is a federal state. Analogs: Federal Republic of Brazil, Federal Republic of Germany. Obviously, by Russia you mean the aggregate of territories, regions and cities of federal significance Moscow, St. Petersburg and Sevastopol, in which approximately 85% of the population of the Russian Federation lives. But forget that in most of the republics of the Russian Federation, Russians either prevail, or constitute a relative majority, or are the second largest population group. And in most republics of the Russian Federation, demographic indicators are either the same as on average in the territories and regions, or not much better. The demographic situation is very different from the average Russian only in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and partly in Tuva. Although the birth rate there is also declining.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Sergej1972

According to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the concepts of the Russian Federation and Russia are equivalent.

Whoever argues, I won't. And he "separated" Russia from the Russian Federation with one goal - to show that the birth rate in Russia is much lower than in the Caucasian regions. And nothing more. So, I am not subject to any "false concepts".

[Pessimist22]

Nice article, thanks Irina, nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten!

[parusnik]

The victory of the Soviet people was pulled apart piece by piece, now the losses of the Soviet people are being divided along ethnic lines.
"The father ordered his sons to live in harmony; they did not obey.
So he ordered to bring a broom and says:
- Break it down!
No matter how hard they fought, they could not break.
Then the father untied the broom and ordered to break one rod at a time.
They easily broke the bars one by one.
Father says:
- So it is you: if you live in harmony, no one will overcome you; and if you quarrel and all are apart, everyone will easily destroy you. This is the last thing that happens.

[A. Privalov]

Wars always lead to losses and casualties. IN this war the aggressor, though he was punished, lost clearly less.
Who, where and when claimed that Germany lost more people than the USSR? Nobody, anywhere, ever. So why all this titanic work?
When the count goes to the millions, people are lost behind slender columns of numbers and no one needs arithmetic balancing act.

The suffering of the peoples is innumerable and the adding machine will not help here. It is impossible to measure the human pain and grief of loss in terms of the dead and the dead. Who lost more - the mother of the son of a murdered man at the front, who buried the baby during the Blockade, who did not find her child under the ruins of a house, or who lost him in the neighboring Treblinka barracks?

I kept waiting for what the autoress was heading for. Well, G ... judge her and all the deniers of the catastrophe ... Amen!

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

It is impossible to measure the human pain and grief of loss in terms of the dead and the dead.

But you can cheat them in the eyes of descendants.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

But you can cheat them in the eyes of descendants.

To prevent this from happening, descendants should be left as a legacy not only the pain and grief of losses eighty years ago, but also today's joy of acquisition and obviously fulfilling hopes plus an optimistic outlook on the future, and we will all be happy.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

To prevent this from happening, descendants should be left as a legacy not only the pain and grief of losses eighty years ago, but also today's joy of acquisition and obviously fulfilling hopes plus an optimistic outlook on the future, and we will all be happy.

First of all, the real picture must be "left" ... but here it is without a "adding machine".

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

First of all, the real picture must be "left" ... but here it is without a "adding machine".

The thing is that

Yesterday, today was tomorrow.

For you and me yesterday is reality, and for posterity, reality is today's. The same cunning craftsmen from the adding machine are trying to prove how happy and prosperous they live on one minimum wage, how useful sanctions are for the country and citizens, how good and joyful it is with a living wage, etc. Do you believe them? Will the descendants believe?

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

The same cunning craftsmen from the adding machine are trying to prove how happy and prosperous they live on one minimum wage, how useful sanctions are for the country and citizens, how good and joyful it is with a living wage, etc. Do you believe them? Will the descendants believe?

Have you decided to change the subject of the conversation?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Have you decided to change the subject of the conversation?

The topic is the same: verbal and arithmetic balancing act.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

Quote: mat-vey

Have you decided to change the subject of the conversation?

The topic is the same: verbal and arithmetic balancing act.

Well, on the "balancing act" you are special ... Only at this stage, who about "corpses filled up" and "about the usefulness of sanctions" from one team - are encouraged to repent and pay.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Well, on the "balancing act" you are special ... Only at this stage, who about "corpses filled up" and "about the usefulness of sanctions" from one team - are encouraged to repent and pay.

Don't talk about me. I'm bad by definition.
As for appeals, so few who are calling for what? About 40 years ago, the department of propaganda and agitation of the Central Committee of the CPSU, twice a year, published different appeals in the newspapers in marketable quantities. The people in those days were more obedient than today in a hundred times, and even then they did not rush to fulfill them. And now even more so. Whom do they care about?

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

I'm bad by definition.

And who determined? Although this is your own business. Only you are interested in it - someone can "correct history on the adding machine", while others do not need to know about the life of their own ancestors - just believe? And if you do not believe that "corpses were showered" and on the "adding machine" decided to count the real picture, then you do not respect your ancestors?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

How interesting is it for you - someone can "correct history on the adding machine", while others do not need to know about the life of their own ancestors - just believe? And if you do not believe that "they threw corpses" and decided to count the real picture on the "adding machine", then you don’t respect your ancestors?

Sorry, I didn't grasp the depth of your thought.
In my first commentary, I expressed the thesis that Madame, with fury and zeal worthy of better application, proves a completely trivial truth, which no one, anywhere, ever denied: the losses of the USSR were higher than those of Germany. Dot.
The next in terms of triviality are "Volga flows into the Caspian Sea" and "The moon is a natural satellite of the Earth".

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

proves a completely trivial truth, which no one, anywhere, ever denied: the losses of the USSR were higher than those of Germany. Dot.

Well, yes "did not deny" ... just overestimated at times ... but this is nonsense?

Quote: A. Privalov

Whom do they care about?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Well, yes "did not deny" ... just overestimated at times ... but this is nonsense?

I do not rely on the calculations of amateur accountants.
For me, as a lover of History, there are reputable experts who are well versed in the topic. For example, this is what it tells us
Lieutenant Colonel S.B. Eremenko,
Candidate of Historical Sciences,
Deputy Head of Department
Research Institute (Military History)
Military Academy of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces:

Irrecoverable losses alone amounted to more than 8,5 million people. The total human losses of the German armed forces in World War II are more than 13,5 million people, or 75% of the mobilized and 46% of the total male population of Germany.

I have no reason not to trust him. There is no need for me to read the amiable madame's idle studies and compare her astrological calculations with the source I have quoted.
Let us now speak in detail, how many times can these figures be underestimated or overestimated?

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

There is no need for me to read the amiable madam's idle studies and compare her astrological calculations with the source I have given.

And then what do we read, or do we condemn without reading?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

And then what do we read, or do we condemn without reading?

We simply follow the old man Occam's behest: "You should not multiply things unnecessarily."

[mat-vey]

"This article examines the losses suffered by the Red Army, the Wehrmacht and the troops of the satellites of the Third Reich, as well as the civilian population of the USSR and Germany, only in the period from 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX until the end of hostilities in Europe (unfortunately, in the case of Germany, this The Soviet-Finnish war and the "liberation" campaign of the Red Army were deliberately excluded. The issue of losses of the USSR and Germany was repeatedly raised in the press, there are endless disputes on the Internet and on television, but researchers of this issue cannot come to a common denominator, because , as a rule, all arguments ultimately boil down to emotional and politicized statements. This once again proves how painful this issue is in Russian history. The purpose of the article is not to "clarify" the final truth in this matter, but to summarize the various data contained in disparate sources. The right to make a conclusion is left to the reader. "
And what kind of "catastrophe" does the author "deny"?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

The issue of losses of the USSR and Germany was repeatedly raised in the press, there are endless disputes on the Internet and on television, but researchers of this issue cannot come to a common denominator, because, as a rule, all arguments come down to emotional and politicized statements. This proves once again how painful this issue is in Russian history.

True as a baby's tear All these endless disputes, emotions, politicized statements and painfulness of the issue exist exclusively for internal use. All over the world, for a long time, everything is known, calculated and published, and the figures cited by foreign sources (I mean, authoritative sources) are quite brought to a common denominator with authoritative sources from the USSR, and now, the Russian Federation.

The right to make a conclusion is left to the reader.

I read it and drew conclusions.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

I read it and drew conclusions.

"Nobody needs arithmetic balancing act." - Well, you made conclusions for yourself, then where does "nobody" have?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

"Nobody needs arithmetic balancing act." - Well, you made conclusions for yourself, then where does "nobody" have?

But this, my dear, is already the worst form of verbal balancing act - litigation and clinging to some trifles. It's called demagoguery.
Life is so short. Do you feel sorry for the time for idle talk?

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

- litigation and clinging to some trifles.

Everyone has their own concept of "little things" and to indicate that something is important to someone, and what is not, this is not even "balancing act". You have not attached the list to "anyone", so everyone has the right to consider that your conclusion applies to it ...

[mat-vey]

Look, judging by the downsides, your admirers think that remembering about Auschwitz is something bad ..

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Look, judging by the downsides, your admirers think that remembering about Auschwitz is something bad ..

Do not judge, and even more so, by the minuses of some "my admirers" there.
For myself, I consider it necessary to remember and be sure to pass on to the descendants the history of victories and defeats, but stop looking back. There, nothing has changed.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

For myself, I consider it necessary to remember and be sure to pass on to the descendants the history of victories and defeats, but stop looking back. There, nothing has changed.

It has not changed there, but there are more and more different tales about "there" every day .. And how to remember if you don't look back?
Just stop "looking around" at once, those who want to correct everything in their own selfish interests find that they have to be counted several times after them.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

It has not changed there, but there are more and more different tales about "there" every day .. And how to remember if you don't look back? Just stop "looking around" at once, those who want to correct everything in their own selfish interests find that they have to be counted several times after them.

Do not read different fairy tales about "there". There is excellent scientific literature. Look back only those peoples whose vulgarity changes unpredictably to suit the current moment.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

Do not read different fairy tales about "there".

Well, I sometimes read your comments .. Or are you claiming to be the ultimate truth?

Quote: A. Privalov

Look back only those peoples whose vulgarity changes unpredictably to please the current moment.

Well, if they "look around" it means they want to know the truth, and not something that "for the sake of the current moment" they want to sell.

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Well, I sometimes read your comments .. Or are you claiming to be the ultimate truth?

Not at all. Everywhere and always, if I do not quote, then I express my own opinion. Or is it not clear?

Quote: mat-vey

Well, if they "look around" it means they want to know the truth, and not something that "for the sake of the current moment" they want to sell.

It is possible to sell it only to those who have not established their own opinion, to those who cannot / cannot / does not want to "separate the wheat from the chaff." Who, instead of serious literature on the subject, reads all sorts of nonsense on yellow sites of dubious reliability.
I recommend that you rely on the works of the research institute (military history) of the Military Academy of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces. There are serious people writing serious work.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

I recommend you

Why did you decide that you can "recommend" something to someone?

Quote: A. Privalov

Not at all. Everywhere and always, if I do not quote, then I express my own opinion. Or is it not clear?

After "no one" is not at all clear .. or are you following in the footsteps of Odysseus? And what are there cyclops?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Why did you decide that you can "recommend" something to someone?

I use it myself. So I recommend it. A solid institution, not hukhry-muhry.

Quote: mat-vey

and what is there cyclops?

Maybe there is.
If you have something intelligible to me on the topic, you are welcome. If not, let me take my leave. Time is a pity, do not blame me.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

If you have something intelligible to me on the topic

Well, so you would have something on the topic, then maybe it would be ... Only about the "catastrophe" is not clear ...

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Only here about the "catastrophe" is not clear ...

What's not clear here? There is so much talk and discussion on this topic that it is simply not a hunt to start all over again. Having calculated almost the third figure of the loss on both sides, Madame could not resist so as not to stab the Jews. I wanted to answer her, but then I realized that the beads would not be enough.

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

What is not clear here?

Give tips and tricks ... and here ...

[A. Privalov]

Quote: mat-vey

Give tips and tricks ... and here ...

Gave a recommendation. Because the books are too good got caught. If you want - accept, but you want - vice versa. I will not be upset.
And advice ... What advice and to whom? Give advice to the citizens of a country where I have not lived for over thirty years? Why on earth?
How not to remember Timur Shaov:

The country is seething, swaying,
Noises, fights, drinks,
She puts up with herself
She spits in herself.
And I'm not gloating
And I don't sing glory.
I do not participate in this,
I just drink beer ...

All the best to you. God bless you!

[mat-vey]

Quote: A. Privalov

Gave a recommendation. Because the books are too good got caught. If you want - accept, but you want - vice versa. I will not be upset.

Well, in order to give recommendations, you need to know whether they are needed or not ... we did not have an exchange on the literature used ...
And I wonder - about citizenship you calculated by IP?

[Kushka]

If the Creator wanted man to look back,
he would have made his eyes on .... in general, elsewhere.
And he made them in front and at the maximum height - on the forehead.
(It was not me who said it, but the great Russian sculptor)

[Sling cutter]

Quote: mat-vey

Only at this stage, who about "corpses filled up" and "about the usefulness of sanctions" from one team - are encouraged to repent and pay.

There is also a topic about the "usefulness" of counter-sanctions and the "outstanding" role of the lend-lease in the "overall" victory.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Stroporez

There is also a topic about the "usefulness" of counter-sanctions and the "outstanding" role of the lend-lease in the "overall" victory.

Well, yes, at first they pile up it is not clear what, and then why count and understand ... Only after counting, sometimes a completely different picture emerges.

[chenia]

Quote: A. Privalov

judge her and all disaster deniers.

You are the one who throw stones to Europe. We have for every dead civilian a Jew, have 11 peaceful civil non-Jews. And for us they are all common losses, common pain. And highlight the victims of the Holocaust for us. it's not ethical. And Europe is another matter. There are 50-70 civilized Jews, one non-Jew. And now they need to repent in full.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: A. Privalov

I kept waiting for what the autoress was heading for. Well, G ... judge her and all the deniers of the catastrophe ... Amen!

The stupidest formulation of the question Why should someone be judged by G ... rd for allegedly denying the "catastrophe" and not judging those who do not recognize the genocide of Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians? Is Jewish pain stronger than Russian? A murdered Jew is more valuable than a murdered Russian? And, I understood - these are the goyim, why grieve for them? So, Privalov?

[tank64rus]

Well, what about the "cultural nations" of Europe. A part of our elite is torn there. How is it to recognize the most inhuman crime in the history of mankind.

[kalibr]

Very good stuff, Irina! If this is an excerpt from your dissertation, then it is enough to transfer the excess of pathos to the conclusion and provide the work with references and ... you can carry it to one of the Academic Councils. But it is advisable to work with German-language sources in the original, and the materials of the Bundesarchiv, that the evidence base was absolute!

[Undecim]

Very good stuff, Irina! If this is an excerpt from your dissertation, then it is enough to transfer the excess of pathos to the conclusion and provide the work with references and ... you can carry it to one of the Academic Councils
Well, if now this is called "good material" and "dissertation", then what is the name of the science in which this "dissertation" will be considered? Only Kipling's On the City Wall comes to my mind.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Undecim

and ... can be carried to one of the Academic Councils ... Only Kipling's On the City Wall comes to my mind.

Irina Frolova is introduced to the Academic Council:

[kalibr]

We all started somewhere. A dissertation is ... the same diploma, showing the ability to work with material and archives. I wrote that I need to add so that it was just "that". And so, a person tries to think, to find something of his own ... all this in science can only be welcomed. I have also read much weaker and nevertheless defended works. So what to do? That is life. We all would like the best, but we have to be content with what we have. Everything else is idealism!

[Undecim]

So what to do?
To award an academic degree for real research activity that has scientific value, and not to skiers-opportunists for manipulating numbers from the Internet in order to create liquid propaganda products.
And you don’t need to tell me what about idealism and that we should be content with "this".
Do you also choose doctors in the hospital by the criterion "I will go to which one is"?

[kalibr]

Well, if she works with the materials of German scientists in the Bundesarchive, then perhaps the scientific value will be added. I wrote about this ...

[Undecim]

Well, if she works with the materials of German scientists and in the Bundesarchive
The propagandists do not work in the archives, they do not strive for this and, as a rule, "do not speak languages." Therefore, they parasitize on someone else's work.

[kalibr]

Well, can I advise something? See this 100 comments in the piggy bank VO!

[smaug78]

Irina Frolova - Samsonov in a skirt (((. Irina, in a decent society, references are required to such statements ...

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: smaug78

Irina Frolova - Samsonov in a skirt (((. Irina, in a decent society, references are required to such statements ...

The abacus jangled merrily
Born in agony, a scrapbook opus.
Debit credit ... And in the final -
The owl is stretched over the globe.

(c) S

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

The aunt with the calculator once again pleased me with the title. After the pearls "USSR / Russia", her "peaceful Slavs of the USSR" were directly forced to play the topic with new colors. In general, the definitional and terminological narrow-mindedness of the authors of this compilation is obvious, I think, to everyone. Aunt's clumsy attempts to find an ethnonymic "golden mean" with a calculator and the diligent elimination of the terms "citizens of the Soviet Union" and "Soviet people" from the lexicon, as a kind of meta-ethnic community, cause, to put it mildly, surprise. Trying to stupidly follow the logic of the Jews with their Holocaust is also very funny. The Jews already initially stated precisely about ethnocide, they did not face a dilemma (or even a polyilemma) of national ownership. And the aunt with the calculator offers, as I understand it, a tracing paper from the Holocaust, without inventing anything better than to call the Soviet International the term "peaceful Slavs of the USSR".
And this passage:

Let us recall that we call the USSR Russia not by chance and deliberately.

From our point of view, the united Nazi Europe at that time was at war with Russia (as a civilization and as a country that until 1917 was called the "Russian Empire", and after 1917, it did not cease to be the same Russia at all, only for some time (in historical retrospect) changed its official name to the abbreviation - USSR).

in general, I think, does not need comments.
To me personally, the purpose of these "overtones" is not entirely clear.

[Krasnoyarsk]

From our point of view, the united Nazi Europe at that time was at war with Russia (as a civilization and as a country that until 1917 was called the "Russian Empire", and after 1917, [/ quote]
[quote = Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]
in general, I think, does not need comments. [/ quote]
Maybe from her point of view, Nazi Europe was at war with Russia, but from our point of view, the entire USSR was at war with Nazi Europe. And you can't get away from it.

[smaug78]

Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.

To me personally, the purpose of these "overtones" is not entirely clear.

To play on the base feelings of jingoistic patriots who know little about history - "The more monstrous the lie, the more willingly they will believe in it." From such lies the Samsonovs and Frolovs grow the Suvorovs and other Corned beef, unfortunately

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

You see, colleague, I perfectly understand Zetterling, Overmans or Hillebrand, I respect their titanic work in shoveling the archives of the OKW, NSDAP and the ministries of race, I understand their correspondence polemics in methodology. I even understand Marshall, who in 1946 dumped a completely leftist calculation on the table. But I don’t understand all these frolics, stupidly compiling other people's numbers and adjusting them to fit their own ideological ideology. The hecatombs for these Frolovs have lost their monstrosity and sacredness, these are just numbers, buttons on the calculator, with which Frolovs simply "wash" their virtual opponents. There is a kind of cynicism in this, wretchedly covered by pompous maxims. You know, it reminds me of Captain Miller's soldiers who played poker with the tokens of killed soldiers in Spielberg's incorrupt ...

[Viktor Sergeev]

As it turns out, our Romanian allies were slaughtering people in Odessa, and the Bulgarians and the Poles were not bad allies of the USSR.

[Paragraph Epitafievich Y.]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

About how our Romanian allies were slaughtering people in Odessa

The coolest Romanian for us in childhood was the elegant commissioner Tudor Miklovan (in the original version - Tudor Moldovan)
Romanian noir icon)

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Did the Bulgarians fight on the fronts? They just always scream about brotherhood and friendship, but they themselves really didn't really fight.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Well, why, quite fought with the Yugoslav and Greek partisans, freeing the German troops for the eastern front.

[Sergej1972]

On August 23, 1944, Romania became an ally of the USSR and other countries of the anti-Hitler coalition, the Romanians began to fight the Germans. Therefore, the losses of the Romanian army after going over to the side of the USSR already belong to the losses of the anti-Hitler coalition.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Yeah, they fought, they rather imitated, so as not to get the answer for 1941-1944. 3 years of atrocities, and then all were sharply among the winners.

[Alexfly]

As far as I know, in the territories of the former Soviet republics, primarily the Jewish population and half-breeds were destroyed. as well as the Gypsy people and everything suitable for them ..... The Slavic population was destroyed according to the principle - a slave or not a slave .. So, taken from 3 million people in Ukraine, most of them were Jewish settlers ..... and not Slavs, which the author kicks.

[Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko]

Yes, a strong article ... I got to tears!

[zenion]

The author again iced the USSR and Russia. But Hitler did not go against Russia, but to protect the West from the Asian hordes. Then you need to write the USSR-Asians. If we are to write the whole truth, then the whole, the Germans fought with the USSR. The USA and England helped and were allies of the USSR, not Russia. All agreements with the allies bear the inscription of the USSR, no Russia is mentioned there and there is no Russia in the UN, but the USSR, Ukraine and Belarus were the ones who suffered the most in this war. That is, the USSR, the Ukrainian SSR, the Byelorussian SSR. There is no Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic there, at least turn over all the sources. There is no need to kiss so deeply, and there is no need to unite two countries with different political systems. In the Great Patriotic War, the USSR defeated under the leadership of the VKPb. The USSR also won a Victory in World War II. The Russian Federation was not present there separately and in no status. Amen!

[Alexander Ra]

The author's conclusions are correct and important. And, unfortunately, today we do not have a national science, national history. The events of the Second World War are another outbreak of the genocide of the Slavs, lasting 1000 years both on the territory of Europe and on the territory of Russia, then subsiding, then intensifying. Understanding this should be one of the main pivots of our ideology and worldview for a long time. Russia / USSR - it is appropriate, the basis of our social education is the state-forming people, and not the Leninist national policy, which resulted in the Belovezhskaya separatism - it is also an act of genocide of the Slavs, little realized and not recognized (the high value of the advantages of the Soviet period compared to the new liberal-capitalist understandable).

[Mikhail Valeev]

Another count "according to some data of some historians"
See how evidence-based comparisons are made using publicly available and faultless sources.
German census 1939 - women are 1.5 million more than men
German census 1946 - women are 7.5 million more than men.
This does not mean that 6 million men died, but means that any increase in their deaths must be corrected by a similar increase in women. If, for example, the author of the loss of the Wehrmacht has 12 million, then this should be 9 million men and 3 million women, which of course is obvious nonsense.
Moving on to the USSR
1939 census - women are 7 million more than men
1959 census - women are 20.5 million more than men, if you subtract children under 14, the difference rises to 21.5 million
6 million in Germany and 14.5 million in the USSR - the resulting disproportion of the male population during the War. This is the approximate ratio of military losses.

[zenion]

The Germans had such tricks. If he died three to four days after being wounded, then this is not a combat loss from the Red Army, but the inability to heal. Now all diseases are from the virus. Starting from a log on the head, or with a knife in the heart.

[Sergej1972]

The inhabitants of the General Governorship and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia were not called up to the Wehrmacht.

[alekSASHKA-36]

Genocide can only be among the Jews, and the Slavs should be.

[Artem76]

It is right that we touched on this topic, Irina. Only figures alone give a tremor in the body ....... How many souls have been ruined by the insatiable monsters ....