"Leopard 2A4 did not pass the test of a real battle": Turkey explained the replacement of the German tank turret

The Turkish army in 2006-2011 acquired from Germany 354 tank Leopard 2A4. However, these combat vehicles did not live up to the hopes placed on them.

They participated in their first true combat trials, being deployed in recent Operations Euphrates Shield and Olive Branch. Leopard 2A4, unfortunately, did not pass the tests in a real battle, faced with a new generation of anti-tank ammunition, due to the lack of active and reactive protection

- the columnist for the Turkish edition of SavunmaSanayiST.com explains the unsuccessful "premiere" of "Leopards".

According to him, in the end it was concluded that the Leopard 2A4 needed improvement, especially in adaptation to asymmetric warfare. In this regard, the implementation of two separate projects for modernizing tanks began.

The first solution provides only an increase in defensive capabilities: equipping MBT with reactive protection and grilles with high ballistic strength, reinforcing the hull with additional armor. According to this scheme, which increases the weight of the tank from 55 to 62 tons, 40 vehicles will be modernized.

Two towers of Turkish Leopard 2A4

The second project consists of a large-scale modernization of the Leopard 2A4. The main innovation is the installation of the turret of the Turkish ALTAY tank on the German platform. As a result, the cannon is replaced in the MBT - the L55 is installed instead of the L44 of the same 120-mm caliber. In addition, the armor of the vehicle is being strengthened and the "electronic filling" is updated, including the FCS. Under this project, 81 tanks will be upgraded with an option for 250 units.

The author believes that this option for improving the Leopards has a number of advantages. First, due to a certain unification with the Altai, the cost of maintaining the tank fleet will decrease and the training of crews will be simplified. Secondly, due to the more mass production of towers, the cost of the Altai will decrease.

As a shortcoming, the observer calls the close connection of the modernization of the Leopards to the Altai project, the implementation of which is stalling and carries certain risks.

Comments

[Lech from Android.]

I read so many laudatory odes about the Leopards, but in fact he could not stand the test of battle. So advertising a weapon is one thing, but a real fight with this weapon is quite another.

[Dodikson]

Leo2A4 is a modification of the 80s, that is, it is 35 years old.
it is clear that the new PTSs beat them.
You are in the articles about the fact that in the same Syria they are also harnessing T-72s, which of the same years do not write that they say a Juano tank, because they are harnessing it. and start looking for reasons. here is the same topic. By the way, the T-90 in Syria was also burned, and the T-90 is newer and more powerful than the Leo2A4.
this is not a lousy tank. and the Turks are still warriors.

[Lech from Android.]

Don't pull the owl over the globe. I didn’t say a word about the T-72 and T-90. What kind of warriors the Turks were, they perfectly showed in Libya and Karabakh ... Do not underestimate the Turks ... Such an underestimation of the enemy's capabilities will cost dearly.

[Dodikson]

why would you talk about the T-72 and T-90?
After all, he showed himself to be no better than Leo2, and your comments were so built that it seems that the main thing for you is not the truth, but simply to spoil Leo2. how the West and Westerners vomit on our tanks.
but they can be compared. especially in the context of the fact that both were used in the same war, in Syria.
and the Turks did not show themselves to be good fighters, yes, they are better than semi-partisan formations. because a professional is always better than an amateur, but they still have to grow and grow to a true professional.
and Karabakh is not an indicator - they won against an opponent who could not win by definition, the Armenians had no normal air defense, no art, no aviation, it was a one-sided game, the only question there was, what would be the losses of Azerbaijan.
and in Libya they won against semi-partisans, and when the same professionals came (in the sense of a regular army, not semi-partisans) like the Turks, then all their victories changed dramatically for defeats.
I do not underestimate the Turks, I give a sober account of what they really are.
the same song about the Arabs, you can continue to tell how great they are and how much they can do, but then the Jews and the Arabs come to wipe their tears and snot and wash their trousers.

[Hermit21]

he showed himself no better than Leo2

How many T-5s have been lost in more than 90 years and for what reasons, and how many Lyopikov?

[Dodikson]

yes even if one is what?
the Turks pumped their own because they used it idiotically.
and Assad their tanks. and not only tanks also lost a lot because of the stupid command.
already discussed xs how many times

[Hermit21]

yes even if one is what?

That is that. Not one, but a little more, but this is the answer to the statement "he proved to be no better than Leo2"

[Dodikson]

and how did he show himself better? if the T-90 is the same T-72BU, and the T-72 suffered such losses that it would be better to keep silent about it.
send Leo2A7 there and that he would perform the same tasks as the T-90, do you think who will have less losses?
but this is the same Leo2.

[Hermit21]

and how did he show himself better?

Vitality. With comparable time and intensity of use.

if the T-90 is the same T-72BU

If Th, the T-90A and subsequent ones have gone even further from the T-72.

T-72 suffered such losses that it would be better to keep silent about it

It is necessary to look not only at the number of losses, but also at their circumstances.

send Leo2A7 there and that he would perform the same tasks as the T-90, do you think who will have less losses?

At the T-90. For the flaws in the layout of "Lohopards" have not gone anywhere

[Dodikson]

here I am about the same thing, as we are talking about the loss of Leo2 so the tank is worthless, but as we are talking about the T-72, it is necessary to look at the circumstances.

[Alex777]

How many conversations!
And all because the Turks are offended by the Germans, who refused to install engines for the Altai.
Until they refused - Leopards suited the Turks.

[Dodikson]

thats exactly what I mean . plus some neglect of someone else's technique, which is quite up to par.

[Hermit21]

Yes, you do. For one thing is a T-72M1 PPO stuffed to the eyeballs with long-expired shells and farting of a mountain ram in cylinders, and a completely different thing - the same T-72M1 with fresh shells only in AZ and a serviceable PPO. This is if you do not take into account the qualifications of the crews, the level of interaction with other branches and types of troops. And in "Lyop" you can unload a maximum of some of the shells from the nasal ammunition rack, but it still gets much easier than shells in the AZ. Of course, the Turks are crooked Kalichi, but this does not negate the congenital defects of "Lyopik"

[Serg Murchikola]

written as Leo2A4 does not stand up to criticism, especially shells. Too bulky and prominent for Spikes and Cornets, not to mention Vortex-1, Chrysanthemum and Hermes. The much less protected T-72 is stupidly lower and can be covered with compost bags to protect it from penetration kinetics

[Hermit21]

Much less secure? It depends on how you look at it. It seems to me that the T-72B1 mod. 1989 in terms of booking will not be inferior to the 2A4 from about the same period of appearance. On the sides and roof it will definitely surpass, on the forehead of the hull, EMNIP, too

[Hermit21]

The point is not so much the age and curvature of the Turks, but rather an unsuccessful layout with ammunition stowage next to the mechvod and three crew members from one side and a hole in the forehead of the turret. And none of this, in fact, fixed

[Dodikson]

the same can be said about our Teshki.

[Hermit21]

What is "the same"? More details

[Dodikson]

Damn, you really seem to be from another planet.
even the Chechens received instructions between which rollers to shoot at Teshki so that the ammunition would explode - this is not an "unsuccessful layout with ammunition"
and Th in the forehead, for example, the T-72B3 did not have a huge hole?

[Hermit21]

Not. It is unsuccessful for those who score everything with shells, which still remember Brezhnev and do not monitor the performance of the PPO. The bottom line is that the Hans can't just get rid of the bow ammunition rack - there are too few shells in the aft niche. And we can get by with one AZ / MZ, which is not so easy to get to, especially if it is with local booking. And in the T-90M, the bow tank rack was removed altogether.

and Th in the forehead, for example, the T-72B3 did not have a huge hole?

Was, but much less

[Dodikson]

Well, yes, the Germans have few charges in the stern, so they are forced to use the bow ammunition rack, and right there, and we only need to use AZ, well, everyone knows that there is an infinite number of shells in AZ. that is, the Deutsches must take the entire bookmaker, but ours do not need it.
You either take off the cross or put on your panties.

[alexey88]

do you really think that it is possible to get between the rinks at the teshka? well, if it stands on a flat surface like a table, and fires point-blank, then yes, everything else is from fantastic works, sofa theorists, I would like to see such a shot in nature. Read the research conducted since the time of T34, the lower part of the armored hull, in 70% of cases is protected by terrain folds, do you really think that placing the ammunition rack in the most likely defeat zone, from our partners, is just a masterpiece of engineering thought? In any technique, there are compromises, if there is a live loader, this is the best place to place the ammunition rack, but this does not mean that it is ideal, the presence of knockout panels does not make it safe, it just gives theoretical hope to the crew and a beautiful advertisement for future tank owners.

[Dodikson]

go and tell your fantasies to the Chechens, who in the city battles, according to those instructions, burned a bunch of our tanks (ours, not the export ones, which were weakened).

[Renator]

Quote: Dodikson

and the Turks are still warriors.

Have you fought against the Turks? And from there such conclusions? At least in his hand he held automatic machines whenever in life himself?

[Dodikson]

kept, then what?
how the Turks are fighting is not a secret for anyone, here on the site they described their operations in Syria and other places.
and if for someone their use of bayraktars is a paragraph of success, then, as I said, they are good fellows against the Papuans. if they start fighting with a normal army, they will be rolled out.

[Renator]

Quote: Dodikson

kept, then what?

And where did you keep it?
Who described? The man who described the military specialist? And about WAGNER, he also described how they ran away from the Turks with dirty pants? Arrogance goes off scale

[Dodikson]

held in the army, then what?
where did Wagner run from the Turks? in Idlib, where did the bailiffs endure everything?
and then Buki pulled up and what next? no longer ran from the Turks? why stopped? because Buki is an air defense, they did not beat the Turks on the ground. what has changed on earth then?
arrogance is to lose 2.5 thousand people in Karabakh, having an overwhelming superiority in everything, being able to take everything from the air and clean it up with minimal losses.
Or did not Turkish officers rule in Karabakh?

[Renator]

[quote = Dodikson] 2.5 thousand people in Karabakh, having an overwhelming superiority in everything [/ quote] You definitely do not rummage in military affairs, do not write anything and do not disgrace yourself!

held in the army, then what? [/ quote]
Did you shoot 9 rounds and become an expert in military affairs?

[Dodikson]

in order to understand that great losses with overwhelming superiority in all this are not from a great mind, you do not need to be a specialist.
just as you don't have to be a specialist to see that the heroes, after they removed the air support, began to hand over the back not exactly heroes.

[Otshelnik]

Don't mess with bullshit, I'm not even close to the Karabakh TVD, so talk about what you know about.

[voyaka uh]

The Turks fight very decently, like a professional army.
They have had losses, but they learn from their failures, quickly rework
technique, or replace it, change tactics.

[Dodikson]

no one called them idiots, but at the same time it is worth thinking about the fact that, despite all the software, they are far from being able to fight when compared with the big powers.

[Albay]

Dodikson you write nonsense, because you know little about what it is about. Correctly wrote above a couple of times with AKM shot and think that you can assess the capabilities of the armies. I am very familiar with the capabilities and training of the Turkish army, they are in no way inferior to the armies as you called Great powers. A highly professional and highly competent officer corps, plus a high fighting and morale of soldiers and officers. And Turkey itself is a power!

[palatin64]

We urgently remember Napoleon Bonaparte - "understand these idiots Turks, they have the gift of being beaten ..."

[Albay]

Palatun, you did not read well what Napoleon wrote about the Turks. It was the Turks who beat him first.

Give me an army of Turks and I will take the world hostage "

"A man is elevated by two of his qualities. The courage of a man and the chastity of a woman. A brave man and a chaste woman are honored by their unshakable sacrifice of themselves for the sake of their Motherland. So, the Turks are a heroic nation that is the bearers of these qualities. Therefore, the Turks can be killed, but defeated. impossible ".

"I can not even be considered a disciple of Sultan Mehmet Fatih (Conqueror), for I am a Loser who lost the lands that I conquered with a sword in my hands. As for Sultan Fatih, he is the Lucky One, whose conquered lands were passed on without loss from generation to generation."

If the whole World were one country, then its capital would be Istanbul ...
Napoleon Bonaparte

[Dizzy]

Several years ago in Donbass we saw what the Ukrainian T-72 and T-90 look like ...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Ukrainian T-90s?

[alexey88]

T-90 and Leo 2A4, almost the same age, that is, the age is almost the same. Well, unlike Leo, until recently they said about Teshki that nothing is worse, but Leo is a machine of the "future", in practice it turned out that this is far from the case, that's what the respected Lech from Android was trying to convey to you. Therefore, the conclusion, in comparison with advertising, but the tank is worthless. And the Turks are not very bad warriors, there is no need to say so about them, they have a very efficient army, among their NATI is one of the best. But 62 tons !? much further, the A7 + is already predicting 70 tons, soon the Germans will probably uncover the drawings of the mouse, after all, Mr. Porsche was looking into the future ..

[ivselim]

Can someone explain to me, not versed, what is the secret meaning of the "exercises" shown in the video? I don't really understand the value of such an exercise. Or is it a commercial? But in this case too ... is the car a real enemy for the tank, or an obstacle on the way? ...

[Lech from Android.]

Advertising, of course ... The Swedes at one time drove a video where they, with one launch of their ATGM, smashed the tank into small pieces, having previously stuffed a bunch of explosives into it ... Of course, the audience was not told about this ... This is how advertising of weapons is done for ordinary people. For me, the best advertisement for our tank was a video where the Syrian ISIS fighters got into the bursting tank of Assad's arimia from RPG 7 several times ... and could not destroy it.

[ivselim]

As a layman, it seems strange to me to roll a tank over cars, thereby advertising its power. Or am I not the right man in the street?

[Lech from Android.]

Of course, wrong, if you do not believe the laudatory propaganda of the West, then you are the wrong man in the street and should be used to a democratic flogging with all its delights of missile strikes and bombing.

[Reviews]

Quote: ivselim

It seems strange to me, as a layman, to roll a tank over cars, thereby advertising its power.

That's right - advertising. And a show for the layman. Civilians ride Bigfoot cars in stadiums, military men ride tanks on training grounds.

[abrakadabre]

It is also necessary to ride a bucket wheel excavator through a small car.

[Reviews]

Quote: abrakadabre

It is also necessary to ride a bucket wheel excavator through a small car.

Perhaps someone has already done this. Now the show is arranged with absolutely everything. In any case, I have seen tractors crushing cars on YouTube. In the United States, already in the XNUMXth century, two steam locomotives collided at the racetrack. Just for fun.

[Dodikson]

it was not the Swedes, but the mattresses when shown in the Javelin actions.

[Lech from Android.]

Yes, probably I was wrong ... I just don't remember exactly who it was.

[Reserve buildbat]

This is not just an advertisement. This is an exercise from a Gay European tank competition like our Tank Biathlon. Those in which skakuas steadily swallow dust. And the meaning of the exercise is apparently to convince the layman that a 60-ton tank is heavier than a 1-ton passenger car.

[abrakadabre]

is the car a real enemy for the tank, or an obstacle on the way?

If empty, then "obstruction". If loaded with 200-300 kg of explosives and with an installed push fuse, then the enemy

[shtatsov]

This is just a crash test of the world's car manufacturers! And it seems to me that they did not pass it!

[Thrifty]

It was necessary to put 300 kilograms of explosives in the car in order for the tank to "shoot with a turret", otherwise it was a show-off. ..

[Lech from Android.]

I would add napalm on top, then I would be satisfied with such a picture.

[Thrifty]

Only creating your own powerful engine of at least 1800hp
the Turks will promote the program of creating their own heavy tank, and changing the towers, hanging additional armor and KaZ on such an armored hybrid is simply out of despair! !!

[unhappy]

In practice, tanks are often used as strongholds or assault vehicles in urban areas. Speed ​​and maneuverability are not the main thing, but to build up protection, yes. Such a tank and 400 hp. enough is enough
A heavy tank, by definition, does not go fast, remember the Churchill ...

[donavi49]

Well, this armored hybrid will have a German engine of 1500 l / s and a good transmission.

Despite the fact that the Turks have quite a lot of Leo2A4 with low mileage + spare MTO blocks with near-zero.

It is a normal decision.

[Quadro]

Quote: donavi49

Well, this armored hybrid will have a German engine of 1500 l / s and a good transmission.

Despite the fact that the Turks have quite a lot of Leo2A4 with low mileage + spare MTO blocks with near-zero.

It is a normal decision.

Well, yes, after all, they have endless MTO blocks and transmissions. Maybe that's enough for a couple of years.

[donavi49]

Well, there is some kind of stock + used ears with a small consumption of resources. They will update 120 (+250) Leo2A4 and they will have enough for the foreseeable future. And there, either the Koreans will finish their engine or the Turks will fire up their 1000 hp. up to 1500-1800.

[rotmistr60]

did not pass, faced with a new generation of anti-tank ammunition, due to the lack of active and reactive protection

Tanks created 30 years ago all need modernization and increased protection against anti-tank weapons. Therefore, "Leopard" is not alone in this line. But an increase in mass entails other problems - speed, maneuver, cross-country ability ... But in this case, the survivability of the tank comes first.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

It turns out that the Turks are smarter than everyone. Something I do not believe in the failure of German engineering. Let us graduates of tank universities judge. I am sure that they are on the site.

[mark1]

It turns out that ... For them, perhaps, it is not even so important to modernize the "leopard" as they strive to urgently establish the production of their own "Altai", at least element by element, since it does not come out entirely. Quite competently.

[donavi49]

So there is no failure. The Turks have a tank in the technical room of the 80s. What year is it on the calendar today ???

The Germans patched the vulnerability even in export versions.

And for myself, even in the zero whale - by installing another composite package on the forehead.

[Hermit21]

Did they just get it now?

[steelmaker]

The video is weird. Are they going to fight with civilian vehicles? Now it is clear why they do not want to participate in the tank biathlon. Fighting for real!

[Lesorub]

They participated in their first true combat trials, being deployed in recent Operations Euphrates Shield and Olive Branch. Leopard 2A4, unfortunately, did not pass the tests in a real battle, faced with a new generation of anti-tank ammunition, due to the lack of active and reactive protection

- the columnist for the Turkish edition of SavunmaSanayiST.com explains the unsuccessful "premiere" of "Leopards".

Having released Leopards 2A4 (80s of production) in Syria without any modernization and after that complain about losses) - the modernization had to be done earlier - pulling the tower from "Altai" - more like - "support of a local manufacturer" - during this time the Germans carried out modernization with lower costs A5, A6 (available in the troops and A7)

[Incvizitor]

I thought there is no Altai and there won't be, so at least let us use its tower.

[zwlad]

The main innovation is the installation of the turret of the Turkish ALTAY tank on the German platform. As a result, the cannon is replaced in the MBT - the L55 is installed instead of the L44 of the same 120-mm caliber. In addition, the armor of the vehicle is being strengthened and the "electronic filling" is updated, including the FCS.

Well, what a normal modernization. Well done Turks. The heads are working.

[Quadro]

Turks balaboly, on the sample that showed l44. Nobody will give them l55.

[yehat2]

Quote: Dodikson

Armenians had no normal air defense, no arts, no aviation, it was a one-sided game

the Armenian army remained in Armenia. NK was defended only by the local police. They had quite a lot of military equipment, but all the same - in fact, a small piece of Armenia with a very limited manpower fought against the mobilized army of Azerbaijan. Therefore, Azerbaijan got even the most ridiculous attacks, because stupidly there was no front - there were separate fortified positions. with such a mobilization, I do not understand at all how they held out - the balance of forces was several times.

[alpamys]

Tureks with their Altai since 2008 to fiddle and give a mind can not.

[Constanty]

"Leopard 2A4 did not pass the test in real combat":

As for the clashes in the Al-Bab area, it was not the Leopard2 tank that failed, but the Turkish command and the way the Turks fought, as well as the level of training and morale of the crews themselves. None of the tank models would have looked better under these conditions.

[Growlers]

It's one thing to crush cars and "cut" on the autobahns, it's quite another to fight

[Sergey985]

It is advisable to learn how to use tanks tactically correctly, first of all. And if you use them as a target for the enemy, then you can hang at least 30 tons of additional protection, they will still be burned.

[Maxim_ok]

Well, this is a modification of '85. 35 years. The Turks gave a blunder by sending these tanks to Syria without modifications. are now hastily fixing vulnerabilities

[Foxmara]

This is not a technical statement, but more of a political one. Yes, Leo is an old tank, just like the T72. The question is in the skill of the crews and tactics of use. It's just that the Turks need something from the Germans, for example engines. Plus the desire to accept their technologies and tanks. In Afghanistan, Leo was used normally, but not in Syria .. Maybe it's the dancer?