Military Review

Two months before the war. Report "On new means of struggle in modern warfare for armored and anti-tank weapons"

83

Source: waralbum.ru


Immediate destruction


The report "On new means of struggle in modern warfare for armored and anti-tank weapons" was signed by the head of the GABTU, Lieutenant General Yakov Fedorenko on May 20, 1941. The document went under the heading "Top Secret" and was intended for the Main Military Council of the Red Army. It is noteworthy that the head of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR, Colonel Balakina, on June 11, 1941 (11 days before the war) returns the report back to the GABTU with the following comment:

I forward the material returned to him by Lieutenant-General Comrade Sokolovsky for the meeting of the Main Military Council of the Red Army "On new means of struggle in modern warfare on auto-armored and anti-tank weapons." I inform you that by order of the People's Commissar of Defense, all materials for the meeting of the Main Military Council are subject to immediate destruction upon return in the prescribed manner.


Source: worldwarphotos.info

What kind of document was required to be destroyed at the GABTU on June 11, 1941? The material contains a comparative qualitative and quantitative analysis of German and Soviet armored formations in the light of recent events. Particular attention was paid to the German experience in the German-Polish War, when tank and the motorized divisions of the Wehrmacht were brought together in groups. In particular, the largest in 1940 was Kleist's group, consisting of 5 tank and 3 motorized divisions. In the Red Army, tanks were brought together into mechanized corps, consisting of two tank, one motorized division and a motorcycle regiment.

In the German army, the tank division was a more powerful combat unit than in the Soviet one. There were up to 580 tanks of various types in the Panzerwaffe division, and 375 in the Red Army division. In addition, the Germans provided a whole anti-tank regiment in the division and a lot of air defense guns. In the conclusions of the report, experts urge to bring the organization of a tank division to nine tank battalions with a total number of tanks up to 500 vehicles in the shortest possible time.

The only thing in which the Soviet division was superior to the German was in the number of heavy tanks. In the USSR, each tank division was supposed to have 63 KV tanks, and German units were completely deprived of them. Only in special heavy tank divisions, the Germans provided for 160 thick-armored tanks at once, along with 200 medium and 24 light ones. This is where the real fiction from GABTU begins. By the summer of 1941, the Germans had no trace of any heavy tanks, not to mention heavy tank divisions. Nevertheless, military analysts have identified three models adopted at once: TV, T-VI and T-VII! Soviet intelligence definitely misled the GABTU, not fully understanding the situation when the Panzerkampfwagen VI "Tiger" being developed was mistaken for a production vehicle. TV, apparently some kind of prototype for the future Panzerkampfwagen V Panther, was described as a 32-36 ton heavy tank with a 75 mm cannon and 30-60 mm armor. Guessed only with the caliber of the gun, as shown by further история.


Source: worldwarphotos.info

If we conventionally take the mythical T-VI for the prototype "Tiger" (which was actually developed in 1941), then they never got here at all. The GABTU suggested, based on intelligence, that the vehicle will weigh about 45 tons and have 75 mm armor. With armament, an incident - the tank was equipped with two cannons of calibers from 20 mm to 105 mm. An anti-aircraft 88-mm artillery gun was not discussed. And, finally, the German 90-ton T-VII was to become the king of tank battles in future wars, for some reason equipped with two 47-mm and 20-mm cannons. The monster's armor was barely up to 90 mm thick.

On the armored topic, analysts concluded the following at the end:

The ongoing modernization of light and medium tanks of the German army is aimed at increasing the thickness of the armor and strengthening the machine-gun and cannon armament (increasing the number of guns, their caliber and increasing the initial speed).

Obviously, realizing that the data on heavy tanks can be fake, the authors of the report at the end propose to instruct the Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff to get accurate data on the number and quality of heavy tanks produced by Germany, Italy and the occupied countries.

Objective lag


In general, the presence of such implausible data in the report regarding heavy Wehrmacht tanks is quite surprising. Less than two years ago, on December 2, 1939, a report by GATU specialists about visits to factories in Germany was released. In total, the Germans allowed Soviet specialists to enter fourteen not the most advanced enterprises. But even this was enough for the engineers to make sure that it was impossible to quickly put into production German heavy tanks. The officers of the military department assured the then allies that there were no heavy tanks in service with the Wehrmacht, and that it would take at least 3-4 years to launch them into production. The only inconsistency was in steel mills and rolling mills, mastering 55 mm armor, it is likely for future heavy tanks. But tanks from it had yet to be created.


Source: worldwarphotos.info

Further qualitative analysis of the German armored forces showed the Red Army lagging behind in a number of parameters. In particular, in the equipment of armored vehicles. In the Wehrmacht, vehicles of various classes were presented, which differed from the Soviet best cross-country ability. The authors of the report from the GABTU complained that the experienced all-wheel drive armored car LB-62 "Lavrenty Beria" was never brought to the plant. Molotov is crazy and not ready for the series yet.

The situation with tractors and artillery tractors was also depressing. Among the Germans, the widespread semi-tracked Famo, Daimler-Benz and Krauss-Maffei ensured high mobility of artillery systems at speeds of about 40 km / h. At the GABTU, it was previously possible to get acquainted in detail with some copies of half-track tractors, and the engineers especially noted the successful design of the chassis, the transmission unit, the pneumatic braking system and the coupling device. During tests in the USSR, the heavy FAMO traveled about 2,5 thousand kilometers without serious damage. And its engine, 50% weaker than the diesel of the Voroshilovets tractor, provided equal speed indicators. The Red Army used tracked tractors, of which only Komsomolets (regimental and anti-tank artillery) and the aforementioned Voroshilovets (high-power artillery) met the requirements of the military. But this technique was chronically lacking. To solve the problem at the plant number 183 (Kharkov), there were attempts to create a tractor based on the T-34, which was supposed to be called the A-42 and used for towing heavy guns. On the basis of the T-40 light tank in Gorky, work was underway on the GAZ-22 tractor. But both cars turned out to be with serious defects and required large-scale improvements.

Two months before the war. Report "On new means of struggle in modern warfare for armored and anti-tank weapons"
Experienced GAZ-22. Source: rus-texnika.ru

Tractors S-2 "Stalinets", STZ-5 and ChTZ S-65, intended for divisional and corps artillery, had a low average speed (no more than 4-15 km / h), had defects in the chassis, which made it difficult to operate in the army. At the same time, the artillery systems themselves made it possible to withstand a towing speed of up to 60 km / h. This was not surprising - the army was supplied with tractors intended for agricultural work. In particular, "Stalinets" sinned with a difficult engine start, slipping of the main clutch, frequent breakdowns of the suspension bogie frames and unreliable electrical wiring. Since the end of 1940, the GABTU has repeatedly raised these issues with the high command of the Red Army. The Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant was blamed for the low quality of tractors and the unwillingness to modify them in accordance with the requirements of the military. As a result, the corps artillery by the fall of 1940 was virtually without mobile means of mechanical traction. The situation in no way changed by May 1941, when the chairman of the Artillery Committee of the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army, Major General of Artillery Vasily Khokhlov, wrote to Marshal Grigory Kulik:

Such a situation in matters of developing new models of artillery tractors is becoming intolerable and dangerous.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 27 January 2021 04: 34
    -6
    In the conclusions of the report, experts urge, in the shortest possible time, to bring the organization of a tank division to nine tank battalions with a total number of tanks up to 500 vehicles.
    Quite sensible, albeit superficial.
    Obviously, realizing that the data on heavy tanks can be fake, the authors of the report at the end propose to instruct the Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff to get accurate data on the number and quality of heavy tanks produced by Germany, Italy and the occupied countries.
    And that's healthy too! So it is not worthwhile to reproach the document with "fantasy". And then there are healthy and logical conclusions.
    Such a situation in matters of developing new models of artillery tractors is becoming intolerable and dangerous.
    1. Finches
      Finches 27 January 2021 06: 38
      +1
      June 24, 1941, the fateful date immediately and forever determined the price of mistakes, both of the military and political leadership of the country, expressed in huge human losses! For example, the decision to disband the clumsy mechanized corps was made already in July 41, following the crushing losses in the first battles, and the next time they were formed (starting in 1942) on a different principle! War, the best examiner - the price of an unlearned lesson, untenable reforms and bravura slogans - life!
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 27 January 2021 07: 59
        +3
        For example, the decision to disband the hulking mechanized corps
        In general, the principle of organizing the TA of the first formation (1942) turned out to be not particularly successful, because tank corps and rifle divisions have different mobility, instead of SD, mechanized corps were included in the TA of the 2nd formation, so principle Organization of tank armies arr. 1943-1945 is similar to MK arr. 1940-1941, the details differ.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 27 January 2021 11: 04
        +6
        Quote: Finches
        For example, the decision to disband the clumsy mechanized corps was made already in July 41, following the crushing losses in the first battles, and the next time they were formed (starting in 1942) on a different principle!

        If the war would delay ©, then the reorganization of the MK-40 into new states would begin in October-November 1941, after the experimental exercises of MK in the Moscow Military District scheduled for September.
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 21
        +1
        Zyablitsev, in fact, the Second World War began on June 22, not 24. In addition to this error, you have everything on the case
    2. oldbuddy
      oldbuddy 27 January 2021 10: 48
      +3
      I wonder why this Yevgeny Fedorov retells A. Isaev in his own words?

      Isaev A.
      The main myths about WWII
      Chapter 3
      But the intelligence reported exactly ...


      By the way, Isaev also provides a link to the "destroyed report":
      TsAMO RF F.38 Op.11353 D.895 L. 3
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 27 January 2021 15: 29
        +6
        Quote: oldbuddy
        By the way, Isaev also provides a link to the "destroyed report":
        TsAMO RF F.38 Op.11353 D.895 L. 3

        A scan of the report is in the piggy bank LJ uv. D. Sheina - number 02.
        https://litl-bro.livejournal.com/
    3. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 29 January 2021 14: 53
      +3
      Quite sensible, albeit superficial.

      A tank division of 500 vehicles is sensible (this is such a medium tank army in '45)? Than? Taking into account the quality and quantity of communications of the Red Army for the 41st year. Plus a fortune with self-propelled artillery, armored personnel carriers for the infantry, and at least tankers.
      It is difficult to imagine a more stupid proposal.
  2. Fat
    Fat 27 January 2021 04: 40
    +2
    Well laid out. Thank you. I will revise some sources with your permission. A depressing picture. No wonder the OKW did not consider our country to be normal people.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 27 January 2021 05: 43
      0
      Quote: Thick
      No wonder the OKW did not consider our country as normal people
      You seem to be with OKW at the same time in their assessment.
  3. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 27 January 2021 06: 17
    +4
    380 tanks in the German Panzer Division! Where did intelligence get this nonsense from? In reality, the German tank division had about 100 tanks as part of one two-battalion tank regiment. The German tank division was strong not due to the abundance of tanks, but due to the abundance of motorized infantry in motorized regiments and motorcycle battalions, as well as due to the excellent organization of interaction between troops. Well, of course, the German artillery was also on top. And the Soviet proposal for 500 tanks in a tank division is generally beyond reasonable limits. Even in the tank armies of the Red Army of the 1945 model, the standard number of tanks was 800-900 tanks. Yeah! Few Stalin shot disinformers and science fiction writers, extremely few!
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 27 January 2021 07: 10
      +4
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      380 tanks in the German Panzer Division! Where did intelligence get this nonsense from? In reality, the German tank division had about 100 tanks as part of one two-battalion tank regiment
      But do not, until the age of 40 in it. the division had two tank regiments, and the regiment had about 140 tanks. And the document covers just 40 years. Although of course 100 tanks from above did not sneeze either, but these are not your 280 plus.
      1. icant007
        icant007 27 January 2021 09: 15
        -2
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Although of course 100 tanks from above did not sneeze either, but these are not your 280 plus.


        Yes, the article says about 580 tanks in the division. Kuzya the cat confused the five with the three.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 27 January 2021 09: 18
          +1
          Ochepyatki business is common. ))) And editors are expensive these days.
      2. oldbuddy
        oldbuddy 27 January 2021 09: 37
        +11
        The presence of tanks in the Panzer-Division of the Wehrmacht

        on September 1, 1939
        1. Panzer-Division - 309 tanks
        2. Panzer-Division - 322 tanks
        3. Panzer-Division - 391 tanks
        4. Panzer-Division - 341 tanks
        5. Panzer-Division - 335 tanks

        on 10 May 1940 years
        1. Panzer-Division - 256 tanks
        2. Panzer-Division - 266 tanks
        3. Panzer-Division - 341 tanks
        4. Panzer-Division - 314 tanks
        5. Panzer-Division - 327 tanks

        A source:
        Jentz TL “Panzertruppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany, s Tank Force. 1933-1942 "
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 27 January 2021 11: 30
          -5
          Quote: oldbuddy
          The presence of tanks in the Panzer-Division of the Wehrmacht

          on September 1, 1939
          1. Panzer-Division - 309 tanks
          2. Panzer-Division - 322 tanks
          3. Panzer-Division - 391 tanks
          4. Panzer-Division - 341 tanks
          5. Panzer-Division - 335 tanks

          on 10 May 1940 years
          1. Panzer-Division - 256 tanks
          2. Panzer-Division - 266 tanks
          3. Panzer-Division - 341 tanks
          4. Panzer-Division - 314 tanks
          5. Panzer-Division - 327 tanks

          A source:
          Jentz TL “Panzertruppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany, s Tank Force. 1933-1942 "

          And on June 22, 1941, what was the presence of tanks in the German tank division? The tank division had a tank regiment of two tank battalions, where each battalion had 45 tanks, for a total of 90 tanks. Well, plus a few more tanks at the regiment headquarters and reconnaissance. There were about 100 tanks in total.
          1. oldbuddy
            oldbuddy 27 January 2021 11: 54
            +4
            Kot_Kuzya, where are you going with such a level of education?

            And on June 22, 1941, in the 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th, 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th divisions, there were three tank battalions each.
            It's elementary.

            Well, what was the presence of tanks in the German Panzer Division on June 22, 1941?
            Miscellaneous, Kot_Kuzya, miscellaneous.

            1. Panzer-Division - 145
            3. Panzer-Division -215
            4. Panzer-Division - 177
            6. Panzer-Division - 245
            7. Panzer-Division - 265
            8. Panzer-Division -212
            9. Panzer-Division - 143
            10 Panzer-Division - 182
            11. Panzer-Division - 143
            12 Panzer-Division - 220
            13. Panzer-Division - 149
            14 Panzer-Division - 147
            16. Panzer-Division - 146
            17 Panzer-Division - 202
            18. Panzer-Division - 218
            19 Panzer-Division - 228
            20. Panzer-Division - 229

            A source:
            Jentz TL “Panzertruppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany, s Tank Force. 1933-1942 "
            page 190-193
            1. Fat
              Fat 27 January 2021 20: 07
              0
              Thank you, Bro. I'll look through. But this is not the only source.
    2. Sahalinets
      Sahalinets 27 January 2021 07: 26
      +2
      In reality, before the attack on the USSR, there were from 147 to 209 tanks in the Wehrmacht division.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 27 January 2021 08: 28
        0
        The document (article) indicates 1940.
      2. icant007
        icant007 29 January 2021 12: 01
        -3
        Quote: Sahalinets
        In reality, before the attack on the USSR, there were from 147 to 209 tanks in the Wehrmacht division.


        Up to 299 according to Müller-Gillebrand.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 January 2021 11: 15
      +6
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      380 tanks in the German Panzer Division! Where did intelligence get this nonsense from? In reality, the German tank division had about 100 tanks as part of one two-battalion tank regiment.

      It's simple: the intelligence stubbornly considered the German TDs to be two-regimental - according to the OShS before the French campaign.
      Actually, from these German OShS in the rehash of our intelligence, the roots of our monstrous TD and MK grow.

      PS In the report there were comparative tables of our and German divisions - it will be necessary to look where the Germans got so many tanks from. smile
    4. Fat
      Fat 27 January 2021 20: 00
      0
      Well, your conclusions are terrible. I'll think about the rest. Who misinformed whom and what.
    5. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 January 2021 21: 41
      +7
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      380 tanks in the German Panzer Division! Where did intelligence get this nonsense from? In reality, the German tank division had about 100 tanks as part of one two-battalion tank regiment.

      I got to the original source - there is no breakdown of tanks by divisions, etc., etc. But the data in the comparative table (p. 2-3) are nevertheless interesting.

      The German conventional TD consists of one tbr (two tp) and one msbr (two smb). Plus an artillery regiment, a PTO regiment and support units. There are 170 ST and 410 LT in total. Plus artillery: field (24 x 105-mm, 18 x 75-mm), anti-tank artillery (12 x 75-mm, 36 x 47-mm) and ZA (28 x 37-mm, 12 x 20-mm).
      The German heavy TD has the same structure, but there are fewer tanks: 160 TT, 200 ST, 24 LT. No data on artillery.

      That is, as I said - in the Panzerdivision according to our intelligence there were two tp, and even with a brigade superstructure.
      By the way, in the history of the Panzerwaffe there was a real two-battalion tank regiment with 200 tanks. He also managed to enchantingly love 80% of serviceable tanks in two days of fighting. smile
      1. icant007
        icant007 28 January 2021 17: 55
        -6
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The German heavy TD has the same structure, but there are fewer tanks: 160 TT, 200 ST, 24 LT. No data on artillery.


        In my opinion, this whole story still smacks of French.
        A suspicious number of heavy tanks, as many as captured Char B1.

        And in terms of parameters, it is close to T-5 in the table.
  4. Undecim
    Undecim 27 January 2021 08: 26
    +13
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    In reality, the German tank division had about 100 tanks as part of one two-battalion tank regiment.

    On June 22, 1941, the tank divisions of the Wehrmacht consisted of one tank regiment of two - or three-battalion composition, two mechanized regiments of two-battalion composition, anti-aircraft defense, anti-aircraft defense, communications, engineering and others.
    The number of tanks in divisions, in fact, taking into account losses in previous campaigns, was from 143 to 293.
    The 293th Panzer Division had 12 tanks, of which 117 PzKpfw 38 (t), 40 PzKpfw I 33 PzKpfw II, 30 PzKpfw IV.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 27 January 2021 08: 56
      +8
      The author doubts the presence of heavy tanks in the Wehrmacht for the summer of 1941. But he did not note at least two facts that could mislead our intelligence:
      - Firstly, in German armored units at that time, T lV was called heavy.
      - Secondly, there was widespread misinformation about the presence of a multi-turret Rhinemetall tank in the troops, a photo of which was circulated in all newspapers. Moreover, both on the streets of Norway and in the workshops of the plant.
      1. icant007
        icant007 27 January 2021 09: 39
        -4
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        But he did not note at least two facts that could mislead our intelligence:


        One more point. Germany got 1940 B160 heavy tanks from France in 1. Perhaps they influenced the distortion of the data.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 27 January 2021 15: 40
        +10
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        - Firstly, in German armored units at that time, T lV was called heavy.

        Not named. The Quartet was a medium tank and was part of a medium tank company.
        The myth of the "heavy four", EMNIP, came from one of our intelligence reports, which mentioned that, according to the German classification, "four" is heavy.
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        - Secondly, there was widespread misinformation about the presence of a multi-turret Rhinemetall tank in the troops, a photo of which was circulated in all newspapers. Moreover, both on the streets of Norway and in the workshops of the plant.

        Thirdly, since 1937, work was underway in the Reich on a new heavy tank, which along the way everything was heavy and heavy - VK30.01, VK36.01, VK45.01. The VK30.01 (H) pair was ready in March 1941.
        1. stepet
          stepet 27 January 2021 22: 50
          -3
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The Quartet was a medium tank and was part of a medium tank company.

          Was.
          From the beginning of 1943
          And right up to the end of 1943.
          In total, a little more than six months.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          in which it was mentioned that, allegedly, according to the German classification "four" is heavy.

          There were no heavy tanks before the war and at its beginning, neither in the Wehrmacht, nor in the Red Army.
          And there were no middle ones with light ones either.
          There were light, medium and heavy armor tanks.
          But this is different.
        2. AsmyppoL
          AsmyppoL 31 January 2021 18: 53
          +2
          Quite right. In the reconnaissance report dated March 11, 1941, it is also referred to as medium tanks.
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 27 January 2021 17: 46
        +5
        In relation to T-IV, everything is correct, until a certain time it was classified as heavy.
        But the “Rheinmetall”, the Germans never used on the fronts, perfectly understanding its zero value in serious battles.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 27 January 2021 18: 10
          +4
          I wrote about propaganda purposes. Here he is in Oslo in 1940. The whole world sees German heavy tanks. The newspapers are silent about their uselessness.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 January 2021 18: 51
            +3
            I wrote about propaganda purposes

            Yes, I understand. I read somewhere that, during the "return of our ancestral territories", the Poles destroyed several such monsters, either T-28, or T-35. The Germans must have noticed this.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 27 January 2021 21: 47
          +5
          Quote: Sea Cat
          In relation to T-IV, everything is correct, until a certain time it was classified as heavy.

          By the way, in the report under discussion on page 7, the "four" is classified as ST.
          Medium tanks in the German army brand T-IU

          Also among the medium is the T-III tank and medium tanks from Czechoslovakia and France.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 January 2021 21: 59
            +2
            Well, Igor also writes about what exactly in elementary During the period, the Germans classified the "four" as difficult. Yes, I myself read the Soviet purely technical literature, where it was not called otherwise than heavy.
            Also among the medium ones are the T-III tank and the medium tanks of Czechoslovakia ...

            Czechoslovak tanks especially "successfully" fall under the classification - "average".
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 27 January 2021 22: 26
              +7
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Well, Igor also writes that it was in the initial period that the Germans classified the "four" precisely as heavy

              Yeah, in the first volume of Yenz, when describing proposals for an OShS panzerwaffe of the mid-30s, one regularly encounters "a heavy tank with a 75-mm gun." But as soon as this tank turned from discussion and drawings into a real product, it immediately became average. Campaign, dreams with reality at the Panzerwaffe did not coincide. smile
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 27 January 2021 22: 44
                0
                On the subject of Panzerwaffe's dreams, I shed a niggardly man's tear for a long time.
                They say that even with the new woman, in the Bundeswehr, with the Panzers, too, somehow not very good. smile
    2. oldbuddy
      oldbuddy 27 January 2021 10: 17
      +2
      But Thomas Yenz does not believe that the 12th Panzer Division had 293 tanks on June 22, 1941.
      :)
      On page 191 of his handbook (Jentz TL “Panzertruppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany, s Tank Force. 1933-1942”), the available tanks of the 12. Panzer-Division on June 22, 1941:
      109 Pz 38 (t), 40 PzKpfw I, 33 PzKpfw II, 30 PzKpfw IV, 8 Pz Bef 38 (t) - 220 total

      Well, for the rest of the divisions on June 22, 1941:
      1. Panzer-Division - 145
      2. Panzer-Division - 266
      3. Panzer-Division -215
      4. Panzer-Division - 177
      6. Panzer-Division - 245
      7. Panzer-Division - 265
      8. Panzer-Division -212
      9. Panzer-Division - 143
      10 Panzer-Division - 182
      11. Panzer-Division - 143
      12 Panzer-Division - 220
      13. Panzer-Division - 149
      14 Panzer-Division - 147
      16. Panzer-Division - 146
      17 Panzer-Division - 202
      18. Panzer-Division - 218
      19 Panzer-Division - 228
      20. Panzer-Division - 229
      1. oldbuddy
        oldbuddy 27 January 2021 10: 24
        -1
        "2. Panzer-Division - 266" - copy error.
        :(
        2-Panzer Division of the Wehrmacht on June 22, 1941 sunbathed on the beaches of Italy
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 27 January 2021 11: 22
        +6
        I have used George Parada, "Panzer Divisions 1940-1945", although there is also a source indicated by you.
        There are some differences in numbers between them, but I don’t presume to say who is more precise.
  5. icant007
    icant007 27 January 2021 09: 23
    -3
    I forward the material returned to him by Lieutenant-General Comrade Sokolovsky for the meeting of the Main Military Council of the Red Army "On new means of struggle in modern warfare on auto-armored and anti-tank weapons." I inform you that by order of the People's Commissar of Defense, all materials for the meeting of the Main Military Council are subject to immediate destruction upon return in the prescribed manner.


    So it is not clear, in the end the report was destroyed?
    1. oldbuddy
      oldbuddy 27 January 2021 10: 49
      +3
      Isaev A.
      The main myths about WWII
      Chapter 3
      But the intelligence reported exactly ...


      By the way, Isaev also provides a link to the "destroyed report":
      TsAMO RF F.38 Op.11353 D.895 L. 3
  6. BAI
    BAI 27 January 2021 10: 25
    +2
    1.
    Head of the Department of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR Colonel Balakina 11 June 1941 year

    A female colonel - head of the Directorate in 1941?
    2.
    On December 2, 1939, a report by GATU specialists on visits to German factories was released. In total, the Germans allowed Soviet specialists to enter fourteen not the most advanced enterprises. But even this was enough for the engineers to make sure that it was impossible to quickly put into production German heavy tanks. The officers of the military department assured the then allies that there were no heavy tanks in service with the Wehrmacht, and it would take at least 3-4 years to launch them into production.

    Did they lie? Tigers appeared at the front at the end of 1942, Panthers - in the summer of 1943.
    3. Why is the photo of Soviet equipment signed, but not German?
    4. How does the author know the content of the report, if
    all materials to the meeting of the Main Military Council are subject to upon return immediate destruction according to established order.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 32
      +1
      So I ask: "is subject to ... immediate destruction", but is the content known?
  7. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 27 January 2021 11: 00
    +4
    In general, the presence of such implausible data in the report on heavy Wehrmacht tanks is quite surprising. Less than two years ago, on December 2, 1939, a report by GATU specialists on visits to German factories was released. In total, the Germans allowed Soviet specialists to enter fourteen not the most advanced enterprises. But even this was enough for the engineers to make sure that it was impossible to quickly put into production German heavy tanks.

    EMNIP, according to this report, heavy tanks for the Panzerwaffe were mass-produced at factories located in occupied Czechoslovakia and France.
    By the summer of 1941, the Germans had no trace of heavy tanks, not to mention heavy tank divisions.

    Formally, the Panzerwaffe had heavy tanks - trophies of the French campaign.
    1. AsmyppoL
      AsmyppoL 31 January 2021 18: 56
      +2
      In May 1941, intelligence materials indicate the start of production of German heavy tanks.
  8. Undecim
    Undecim 27 January 2021 11: 24
    +4
    Tractors S-2 "Stalinets", STZ-5 and ChTZ S-65, intended for divisional and corps artillery, had a low average speed (no more than 4-15 km / h), had defects in the chassis, which made it difficult to operate in the army. At the same time, the artillery systems themselves made it possible to withstand a towing speed of up to 60 km / h. There was nothing surprising in this - the army was supplied with tractors intended for agricultural work. In particular, "Stalinets" sinned with a difficult engine start, slipping of the main clutch, frequent breakdowns of the suspension bogie frames and unreliable electrical wiring.
    Just C-2 "Stalinets"
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 27 January 2021 11: 42
      +1
      Sorry - some kind of glitch. Instead of one comment - one and a half.
  9. Undecim
    Undecim 27 January 2021 11: 40
    +10
    Tractors S-2 "Stalinets", STZ-5 and ChTZ S-65, intended for divisional and corps artillery, had a low average speed (no more than 4-15 km / h), had defects in the chassis, which made it difficult to operate in the army. At the same time, the artillery systems themselves made it possible to withstand a towing speed of up to 60 km / h. There was nothing surprising in this - the army was supplied with tractors intended for agricultural work. In particular, "Stalinets" sinned with a difficult engine start, slipping of the main clutch, frequent breakdowns of the suspension bogie frames and unreliable electrical wiring.
    The S-2 "Stalinets" was not an agricultural tractor, it was a specially designed medium artillery tractor.

    The agricultural tractor was the S-65 Stalinets.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 29
      +3
      Vic. Nick, thanks for your addition
    2. Fat
      Fat 27 January 2021 20: 16
      +1
      Victor Nikolaevich! We really don't know anything about Mob. regulations for Soviet MTS. Let's hold back. If there is real Info in the documents. Share! It is interesting.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 27 January 2021 20: 37
        +2
        To be honest, I did not understand the connection between the topic of the article and the topic of mobilization of automotive and tractor equipment.
        1. Fat
          Fat 27 January 2021 20: 59
          +2
          DO NOT pretend to be an innocent child. In the USSR, where we lived, even pasta was of a certain caliber. You have moved about tractors ... MTS came by itself. Excuse me.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 27 January 2021 21: 01
            +4
            About pasta and cigarettes - anecdote.
            1. Fat
              Fat 27 January 2021 21: 02
              +1
              From life. I regret
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 27 January 2021 22: 00
        +7
        Quote: Thick
        We really don't know anything about Mob. regulations for Soviet MTS.

        And don't prescribe anything - there are no artillery tractors in MTS. So, upon mobilization, the Red Army will receive only an agricultural tractor, the towing speed of the guns with which hinders the speed of the march even of a rifle division.
        The artillery tractor of mechanical connections must have a speed with a standard load (the gun on the hook, calculation and ammo) of at least 25-30 km / h. For the infantry - at least 10-15 km / h (to provide an operational maneuver with artillery + compensate for several hours of deployment / collapse of artillery units).

        What can the national economy offer? Nothing.
        Industry? Only "Voroshilovtsy" (for which the rembats and artillery of OM and BM are fighting) and "Komsomoltsy" (maximum towed - 45-mm anti-tank gun). Everything else does not meet the requirements of the GABTU and GAU.
        The STZ-5 tractor, used in the Red Army to tow divisional artillery systems, has been produced by the Stalingrad Tractor Plant since 1935 on the basis of the STZ-3 agricultural tractor.
        It was assumed that the STZ-5 tractor will be a universal type of tractor that meets both the requirements of agriculture and transport, as well as the requirements for an artillery tractor.
        On the very first samples of the tractor, the plant was convinced that the created machine does not meet any of the listed requirements.

        Since there was no tractor in the Red Army for divisional artillery, in spite of the fact that the STZ-5 tractor did not pass a single polygon test, it was necessary to use this tractor in the Red Army as a temporary measure until a new tractor appeared, fully meeting the new requirements of NPOs.

        The STZ-5 tractor, neither in terms of its dynamic qualities, nor in the convenience of its service, nor in its reliability, meets the requirements for the divisional artillery tractor in any way and urgently requires a large number of changes covering the entire tractor structure ...
        Division artillery does not have an appropriate tractor that meets its tactical and technical data and requirements.
        © Ulanov / Shein
  10. svp67
    svp67 27 January 2021 14: 50
    0
    By the summer of 1941, the Germans did not have any heavy tanks
    It depends on which classification to resort to ... According to the used in the "Wehrmacht", at that time - YES, there were. They considered such T-4.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 January 2021 15: 44
      +4
      Quote: svp67
      According to the "Wehrmacht" used at that time - YES, there were. They considered such T-4.

      More precisely, according to the classification reported by our intelligence, allegedly used in the Wehrmacht. For the Germans knew nothing about the heavy "four" - for them it was average. And one of the descendants of the Durchbruchwagen was supposed to become the heavy one.
      1. svp67
        svp67 27 January 2021 16: 30
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        For the Germans knew nothing about the heavy "four" - for them it was average.

        For the Germans in 1941, the main thing was not the weight of the tank itself, but the caliber of its gun and the T-4 with a 75-mm cannon they had and was considered "heavy", like our T-34 and KV-1, they considered heavy, but already KV-2 "super heavy"
        In 1942, they raised the "bar" and tanks with a 75-mm cannon were already classified as "medium"
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 27 January 2021 22: 12
          +4
          Quote: svp67
          For the Germans in 1941, the main thing was not the weight of the tank itself, but the caliber of its gun and the T-4 with a 75-mm cannon they had and was considered "heavy", like our T-34 and KV-1, they considered heavy, but already KV-2 "super heavy"

          This classification is found only in our intelligence reports.
          For the Germans themselves, a tank with a 75 mm gun was considered heavy only in the proposals for the OShS of tank formations of the mid-30s - and exactly until the time when they received the aforementioned tank in iron. As soon as the Panzerwaffe received a real "four", they immediately announced that with such armor protection it was only suitable for action in the second line and support of front-line tanks and infantry. However, what else did they expect from a vehicle originally designed as a Begleitwagen - a support tank.
          And then she was a medium tank.
          1. svp67
            svp67 28 January 2021 05: 59
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            , then they immediately declared that with such armor protection it is only suitable for action in the second line and support of the first-line tanks and infantry.

            Sorry, but that's why he armed himself with a short-barreled 75-mm cannon.
        2. stepet
          stepet 27 January 2021 22: 56
          0
          Quote: svp67
          For the Germans in 1941, the main thing was not the weight of the tank itself, but the caliber of its gun and the T-4 with a 75-mm cannon they had and was considered "heavy"

          This is a very old fake.
          In 1941-42. the Germans did not have heavy, medium and light tanks.
          There were tanks of heavy, medium and light armor.
          But this is different.
          Heavy, medium and light tanks from the Germans appeared during the Panzerwaffe reform in 1943.
          A little later, the same thing appeared in the Red Army. Since the end of 1943
    2. stepet
      stepet 27 January 2021 22: 53
      0
      Quote: svp67
      According to the "Wehrmacht" used at that time - YES, there were. They considered such T-4.

      The Germans never had Pz.IV heavy tanks.
      They were not averages for long, a little more than six months, it is true.
      But not heavy.
  11. zenion
    zenion 27 January 2021 16: 18
    -3
    The Germans had good tractors. Enemies of the people had a big hand in ensuring that the Red Army did not have tractors. They apparently thought that the tanks would carry guns behind them.
    1. bubalik
      bubalik 27 January 2021 21: 04
      +1
      ,,, it is only in films that the Germans rode exclusively on motorcycles, armored personnel carriers and tanks.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 January 2021 22: 22
      +9
      Quote: zenion
      Enemies of the people had a big hand in ensuring that the Red Army did not have tractors.

      Big hand added a low general level of literacy and a narrow layer of qualified personnel. GAU and GABTU constantly demanded tractors - and received semi-finished products, the design flaws of which were aggravated by production defects.
      … Take this tractor and try to work with a cannon: it doesn’t pull the required weight of the cannon, the power as a military vehicle is small… the uneven ride, the barbaric conditions for the driver in the cab completely devalue this tractor. And if this car is left as a transport vehicle and as a means of transporting goods, then it also does not fit in terms of carrying capacity ... The army needs three-ton vehicles, and if it is one and a half ton, then it will not suit the army either ... All your transport vehicles have a unique number of shortcomings ... Maximum speed this machine is 8 km / h, but usually it does 6 km / h ... the car does not pull itself at 4th speed ... if I took a combat position, and then I need to change the position immediately, and I need 40 minutes to start the tractor ...
      © Meeting of designers with representatives of the army regarding the operation of STZ-5, April 1941

      Everything was mowed down - even the design bureau of the best in the country and the most technically competent LKZ managed to design a KV based on a suspension and a transmission designed for only 40 tons of mass.
  12. vladcub
    vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 26
    +1
    "subject to immediate destruction upon return" if the report is destroyed, how is its content known?
    1. AsmyppoL
      AsmyppoL 31 January 2021 18: 59
      0
      The war began, probably, therefore, they did not have time to destroy. Extremely more important problems appeared ...
      1. AsmyppoL
        AsmyppoL 1 February 2021 04: 58
        +2
        I consulted with experts and such a picture emerges.
        The report was prepared in six copies. One stayed at the GABTU. Two more were sent to the Air Force Main Directorate and the Intelligence Directorate. One complete set with posters was gone for consideration by the Military Council of the KA. It is difficult to establish where the other two copies were sent (without mailing on the back of one of the sheets).

        After the Council was held, the report with the placards returned and on June 11 was sent for destruction to Division 1. Where it was destroyed. The escort was simply filed to the copy, which was in the GABTU and was not going anywhere.
        Indirectly, this is evidenced by the absence of a resolution on the accompanying document on the direction of instructions for the destruction of copies sent to other departments, in which, most likely, such reports also remained filed in the files (of their departments).
  13. stepet
    stepet 27 January 2021 19: 49
    -1
    By the summer of 1941, the Germans did not have any heavy tanks,

    They did not exist at all and until the middle of 1942.
    And in the Red Army, too, was not.
    Until the fall of 1942, the Germans used the pre-war structure of their BTT. And only in the fall of 1942 they switched to a new one.
    And the Red Army, and at all in 1943.
  14. Egorov Oleg
    Egorov Oleg 28 January 2021 13: 45
    +7
    The reconnaissance apparently also slept through the changes in the staffing of the German tank division, after the French company, one tank regiment was withdrawn from the tank brigades of tank divisions, after which the tank brigade and its headquarters ceased to exist, in the tank division there was only one tank regiment 200-220 tanks and a motorized brigade, 2 motorized infantry regiments. The Germans during the French decided that the Panzer Division was oversaturated with tanks and difficult to control.
    1. icant007
      icant007 29 January 2021 15: 47
      -3
      Quote: Oleg Egorov
      The intelligence apparently also slept through the changes in the staffing table of the German tank division,

      Generally speaking, the report was prepared by the GABTU, and apparently based on the results of a visit to Germany by a Soviet military delegation in the spring of 1941.

      Quote: Oleg Egorov
      one tank regiment was withdrawn from the tank brigades of tank divisions, after which the tank brigade and its headquarters ceased to exist, only one tank regiment remained in the tank division


      Yes, one tank regiment was withdrawn from the division. But the headquarters of the tank brigade formally remained in the structure of the division on 22.06.41, and in 4 divisions it was actually.
      What role did he play this question.
      1. Egorov Oleg
        Egorov Oleg 30 January 2021 18: 02
        +2
        The headquarters of the tank brigade was retained, most likely because it was the first company with a new staff, they were probably supposed to return to the spirit of the regimental scheme, but it was not necessary, in my opinion, in one regimental state, a balance of tanks was achieved with other types of troops in the division, especially to the motorized infantry brigade.
        1. icant007
          icant007 30 January 2021 20: 39
          -1
          I agree that they wanted to return. But I wonder what function the four headquarters that remained in fact performed. I took a quick look. One was abolished already in July 4, and one existed right up to the autumn of the 41nd. The rest did not look.

          Quote: Oleg Egorov
          The headquarters of the tank brigade was retained, most likely because it was the first company with a new staff, they were probably supposed to return to the spirit of the regimental scheme
          1. Egorov Oleg
            Egorov Oleg 30 January 2021 21: 41
            +2
            Maybe they were kept, for the formation of new tank divisions on their basis, the Germans generally treated the headquarters with anxious attitude, on the basis of one well-functioning headquarters, anything can be formed, cadres decide everything.
          2. Egorov Oleg
            Egorov Oleg 30 January 2021 21: 54
            +2
            I admit such a thing, the brigade headquarters in a place with a dedicated regiment formed a division around itself, in February 1941 the Wehrmacht began hostilities in Africa, which knocked down the planned increase in divisions, it is necessary to look at Mueller-Hillebrand, only a long search is needed.
            1. icant007
              icant007 31 January 2021 07: 12
              -1
              Quote: Oleg Egorov
              it is necessary to look at Müller-Hillebrand, only to look for a long time.


              Yes, I was looking for him. But he couldn't find it; he has more descriptive information than why and why.
            2. AsmyppoL
              AsmyppoL 31 January 2021 18: 46
              +4
              Probably, everything is somewhat different.
              It should be noted that as part of four tank brigades (the 2nd from the 2nd Tank Division, the 5th Tank Brigade from the 3rd Tank Division, the 4th Tank Brigade from the 10th Tank Division and the 18th Tank Brigade from the 18th Tank Division) ) in the spring of 1941 the 2nd brigade definitely did not exist.

              In dozens of documents from the correspondence of the 2nd TD for the spring of 1941 (including the address) there is no mention of the brigade headquarters. There is a mention of the headquarters of a motorized rifle brigade and a tank regiment, as well as other parts of the division.

              You can also say for sure that the 5th brigade is mentioned in the combat log of the 3rd TD. She often goes ahead of other parts of the division, interacting with the motorcycle and reconnaissance battalion (in the early days of the war, the reconnaissance battalion followed the 5th brigade).

              There is no information about the headquarters of the other two tank brigades in the archive ...

              However, there is one pattern: the 5th, 4th and 18th brigades were part of Guderian's Panzer Group: one in each of the three motorized corps. It is possible that the authoritative Guderian managed to defend the presence of the brigade headquarters ...
              There is no mention of the need for these three brigade headquarters in the memoirs of German military leaders. After all, back in the spring and summer of 1940, it was known that the second regiments would not have time to replenish the equipment. They did not have time to replenish the 3rd and 4th tank groups to the end ...
              1. Egorov Oleg
                Egorov Oleg 31 January 2021 19: 13
                +4
                I can assume that Guderian retained 3 brigade headquarters, in order to when, it is necessary to divert the forces of the division to solve the arising difficulties, to transfer these headquarters to the possibility of solving secondary tasks, without distracting the division headquarters from solving the main task, so to speak, the operational management reserve. But all the same, the fact remains that our command vaguely imagined the regular structure of a tank division, in Arkhipov's memoirs that in the triangle of Rovno, Brody, Lutsk, his reconnaissance battalion was discovered by one of the tank regiments (I don’t remember exactly at this time, like the 11th tank division ), that is, he believed that the division had 2 tank regiments.
                1. AsmyppoL
                  AsmyppoL 31 January 2021 19: 49
                  +4
                  A number of intelligence reports of the Intelligence Directorate directly speak of the presence of two tank regiments in a tank division.
                  Intelligence was unable to find out about this change in the structure of the tank divisions. Intelligence also failed to establish the weakening of the motorized divisions by excluding one motorized regiment and one artillery battalion in the fall of 1941 ...
                  What is surprising if, according to the scenarios of the games in May 1941 against the PribOVO (in a secondary direction), Germany can concentrate up to 4000 tanks. These tanks never arrived until June 22, 1941 ...
                  The intelligence was so unreliable that there was not even an anti-tank brigade near the direction of the attack of the 2nd Panzer Group ...
                  1. VS
                    VS 2 February 2021 06: 46
                    -1
                    yes, yes - Stalin did not expect an attack and did not believe in an attack on the summer of 41 ..
  15. VS
    VS 29 January 2021 09: 36
    -8
    Avtar writes - "" What kind of document was required to be destroyed at the GABTU on June 11, 1941? The material contains a comparative qualitative and quantitative analysis of German and Soviet armored formations in the light of recent events. Particular attention was paid to the German experience in the German-Polish war, when the tank and motorized divisions of the Wehrmacht were brought together in groups. In particular, the largest in 1940 was the Kleist group, consisting of 5 tank and 3 motorized divisions. In the Red Army, tanks were brought together into mechanized corps, consisting of two tank, one motorized division and a motorcycle regiment. "

    it seems that he wants to pull by the ears the idea that this report shows that the Germans are collecting their tank units in the TG, but someone did not like this and the report was ordered to be destroyed at the level of the NCO or the General Staff? and what - in this that is ((((