The United States excluded Russia from the program of creating a circumlunar station Gateway

Russia will not participate in the creation of the Gateway lunar station, the United States has excluded the Russian side from the project. This was announced by a representative of the Russian rocket and space industry.

According to an informed source, the decision to exclude Russian representatives from the expert group on the creation of the station was made after repeated statements by Russians about their insufficient role in the project. Other details have not yet been reported.

Representatives of Russia are excluded from the discussion on this topic, excluded from mailing letters, discussions, access to materials

- leads RIA News words of the representative of the rocket and space industry.

The memorandum of cooperation in the creation of the international lunar station Roscosmos and NASA was signed in September 2017. The station was named Deep Space Gateway, then Gateway - Lunar Orbital Platform, and after a meeting in September 2018 simply The Gateway.

Russia was initially not satisfied with the terms of cooperation within the framework of this program. The head of Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, has repeatedly announced the likely withdrawal of Russia from the program due to secondary roles. The thing is that the Americans offered Russian specialists to develop and build only an airlock for the station, but according to American technical standards and under an American spacesuit.

The parties held repeated consultations and negotiations on this topic, the last meeting of representatives of NASA and Roscosmos was held in October last year. Rogozin stressed that Russia will participate in the project only on equal terms.

In May, Reuters reported that the United States was preparing a new agreement on mining on the moon, but Russia's participation in this project was not envisaged, since the Pentagon opposed it, which considers Russia an enemy in space.

Comments

[Ka-52]

Revenge for Palosi's laptop

[figwam]

Russia will not participate in the creation of the lunar station Gateway

And what did Russia ask for? Yes, in such a project, we would only be allowed to invest money and stand on the sidelines, no thanks, we will not help our enemies.

[barclay]

In this case, it was necessary not to wait until they point to the door, but to immediately refuse.

[Alex777]

At first Rogozin was banned from Facebook for his "diplomatic comments" by McFaul, and now Russia has been excluded from the discussion of the project.
Coincidence? I do not think.

[Disant]

In this case, it was necessary not to wait until they point to the door, but immediately refuse

if the Russians immediately abandoned this project, then the Americans would have come to their senses and would not have time to add money and TIME to this program))))
otherwise there is no turning back now - people will not understand.

[Infinity]

We have already de facto refused, and for a long time. There was simply a hope for a compromise, on the belief that at least somewhere people would act as a single civilization, without politics. And so the project includes Japan, Canada, the EU. The first two have already set the budget for the work. Formally, Rogozin put an end to our participation:

“We will most likely refrain from large-scale participation in it [the lunar station project]. We are interested in our American colleagues to create an airlock for docking the promising manned spacecraft Eagle, ”he said, speaking at the 71st International Astronautical Congress, which was held in October 2020 via videoconference.

What I expected happened. NASA began to conclude the first contracts for the creation of LOP-G modules in the first half of 2019, and recently, at one of the Northrop Grumman enterprises, the first part for the HALO module was released. Those. work on the station is already in full swing. There is no time for reflection, disputes and compromise, it was necessary to make a decision on the participation of the Russian side.

[military_cat]

Quote: Infinity

There was just a hope for a compromise, on the belief that at least somewhere people would act as a single civilization ...

This was not the case from the very beginning. China, for example, was not considered as a possible participant in Gateway. So, nothing has changed globally, only the perception by Western countries of Russia as a possible partner in space projects has changed.

Well, Roskosmos now has a full-fledged opportunity to demonstrate what it is capable of when there are no partners nearby, drilling holes in its casing.

[keeper03]

Better enemies than such partners !!!

[Cosm22]

What should have happened has happened. And why is there any surprise? What is Yaroslavna's crying?
What exactly can Russia offer to the lunar project, besides the manufacture of a sluice assembly (the only structure in which it, as they say, has a hand in it)?
The answer is NOTHING.
Absolutely.
Absolutely nothing that could interest the participants in the lunar project.
Hooray patriots, I advise you to just soberly assess the facts.
Let's take the statuses of launches from last year. The picture is depressing. And the main problem is not that Russia has shifted from the first place to the third. This is not so bad.
The trouble is that all launches were made on old media. This is a tragedy. You can endlessly "modernize", "modify", loudly declare this to the whole world (because there is essentially nothing to brag about), but this will not change the essence of the matter - Russia has forever lagged behind the two leading powers in astronautics and today exploits only the Soviet legacy ... Protons and Unions are the last century. And there is nothing new. And it is not even visible (except for the long-suffering Angara with a quarter of a century of history).
China and the United States are a different matter. That's where the leap forward in the development of astronautics is! That's where the new technology is! New engines, new launch vehicles, new space vehicles! New projects, new concepts! And what is Russia to do on this celebration of life? With what? If one American private trader has laid on his shoulder all the mighty government department Rogozin?
As for the alteration of the gateway to American standards, everything is simple here. What else to do? Under the Russian? And with what fright?
Does Russia have a spacecraft capable of reaching lunar orbit? No. Moreover, its creation is a big question. It is enough to get acquainted with the history of the Federation-Eagle.
Does Russia have a launch vehicle capable of reaching lunar orbit with a manned spacecraft? No. Is there a real superheavy option? No. Here, at least a decent working hydrogen generator can be made instead of a kerosene stove.
So what is Rogozin dissatisfied with? Everything is natural. Alas, the path to our Kalashny row has already been ordered. Therefore, they gave a turn from the gate.

[Vadim237]

"And there is nothing new." In this decade, there will be something new both in missiles and in manned ships - finish whining to breed.

[Analkara]

What a flight of fantasy

What exactly can Russia offer to the lunar project, besides the manufacture of a sluice assembly (the only structure in which it, as they say, has a hand in it)?
The answer is NOTHING.
Absolutely.
Absolutely nothing that could interest the participants in the lunar project.

It was the US officials who suggested that Russia build an airlock for the station, and not vice versa, but Kosm22 still has strong faith in the hail on the hill represented by the United States.

China and the United States are a different matter. That's where the leap forward in the development of astronautics is! That's where the new technology is! New engines, new launch vehicles, new space vehicles! New projects, new concepts! And what is Russia to do on this celebration of life? With what? If one American private trader has laid on his shoulder all the mighty government department Rogozin?
As for the alteration of the gateway to American standards, everything is simple here. What else to do? Under the Russian? And with what fright?
Does Russia have a spacecraft capable of reaching lunar orbit? No.

You probably missed the news about the failed tests of engines for the SLS rocket from the lunar-diaper power
Where the engine of 8 minutes only worked for one minute
https://chto-proishodit.ru/technology/science/1109501
And here is what Nathan Eismont, a researcher at the Space Research Institute, said.

So that the first time everything ends well, it is extremely rare, if not to say that it never happens. This test only demonstrated that the Americans have not yet been able to create a working engine for their super-rocket.

Does he mean to say that Saturn V is Hollywood?

[Maks winter]

Does the USA or China have QC? don't tell my sneakers

[ccsr]

Quote: Disant

if the Russians immediately abandoned this project, then the Americans would have come to their senses and would not have time to add money and TIME to this program))))

I do not think that such a far-sighted move was made by our employees in the space industry and by Rogozin himself. Most likely they just beckoned us with a dollar, and then they hid it in our pocket, so everything immediately fell into place. Our reaction is quite understandable and adequate - there is no need to go there, especially since we have much more experience in creating stations than the Americans. Let them do somersaults, especially considering that their former presidents have already promised us flights to the moon and landing in 2019-2021. Let's see what terms they will publish with the station in order to understand who will be responsible for this.

[eklmn]

Guys, don't despair! Rogozin promised a date, and
"Nobody will take away everything that we have been promised!"
And if he does not fulfill it on time (and the deadlines are such that not everyone will survive), then
"With a bright future, the problem will have a glorious past to live"

[BecmepH]

Quote: figvam

Russia will not participate in the creation of the lunar station Gateway

And what did Russia ask for? Yes, in such a project, we would only be allowed to invest money and stand on the sidelines, no thanks, we will not help our enemies.

I agree. They drive us with a broom with a wound, but we still climb.
We are a self-sufficient country. We have everything! As long as we will impose ourselves on everyone and everything ...

[A1845]

Quote: BecmepH

We have everything!

so far we only have Rogozin (chief trampoline expert)

[slipped]

Quote: A1845

Quote: BecmepH

We have everything!

so far we only have Rogozin (chief trampoline expert)

I will note - on the American trampolines.

[BecmepH]

Quote: A1845

Quote: BecmepH

We have everything!

so far we only have Rogozin (chief trampoline expert)

Rogozin is not Russia with its untold riches and the best people. It is a speck on the scale of Russia! Don't exalt him.

[astepanov]

Quote: figvam

And what did Russia ask for?

Have you read carefully?

Quote: figvam

no thanks we will not help the enemies.

Right. Rogozin will build his own. Buys a decommissioned trampoline, and ...
Can you reason sensibly? Maybe withdraw from participation in the construction of an international thermonuclear reactor? From participation in the work at the LHC at Cern? From research on the Radioastron and Spektr-RG programs? From the supply of its instruments for the US Martian programs? There are quite a few enemies ... But think about the fact that in the case of participation, the results of the work go to everyone and in full - this is the essence of science. And in case of non-participation ... Objectively, the United States is now stronger in space exploration than Russia, and therefore it seems quite expedient to take advantage of American capabilities. But when they start yelling: "We won't do it instead of the metric inch, this is an undermining of greatness," then this is stupid and strange. Our own lunar program is paper dreams. The super-heavy rocket was recently excluded from the programs for the coming years, and everything else is meaningless, even the Soviet achievements are unlikely to be repeated - and why? What's next? Hope for the Nuclon program? But it is still insanely far from implementation. Of course, American talk about mining on the Moon is of little value, there is nothing on the Moon that would not be easier and cheaper to mine on Earth. But we must not forget about the scientific component, and we seem to have lost it forever because of Rogozin's cheap show-off.

[ccsr]

Quote: astepanov

But think about the fact that if you participate, the results of the work go to everyone and in full - this is the essence of science. And in case of non-participation ...

And in case of non-participation, everything can be stolen or bribed - no one has canceled industrial espionage here, and Putin is the guarantee. And it will be cheaper than our participation in a dubious deal, how to drink ...

[military_cat]

Modern processors would at least steal, otherwise it is painful to look at what is produced.

[ccsr]

Quote: military_cat

Modern processors would at least steal, otherwise it is painful to look at what is produced.

Even if we create our own best processor in the world, no one will buy it from us - the example with the coronavirus vaccine I hope will explain everything to you. So why on earth should we develop something that we cannot sell at least to justify the investment?

[military_cat]

For yourself. In case of interruption of supplies due to foreign policy pressure.

[ccsr]

Quote: military_cat

For yourself. In case of interruption of supplies due to foreign policy pressure.

To us, and so all the military on its own - at least that which refers to strategic systems. And we are conducting our own developments, as far as I know, including quantum research in the field of microprocessors. Maybe we focused on some kind of technological breakthrough.

[astepanov]

Are you talking about a quantum computer, or what? Firstly, such a computer is hardly suitable for the military - it is too delicate and bulky. Secondly, it is suitable for solving a limited range of tasks. Thirdly, in the next twenty or thirty years, no one will have a mass model. In the latter, with the approaches to the management of science and its funding that we have, from domestic electronics we will soon have office accounts and the Felix-M computer. How many military electronics do we have on domestic components produced in Russia?

[Pechkin]

Even if we create our own best processor in the world, no one will buy it from us.

They will buy it if it is more competitively profitable even as they buy it. It's just that the processor is part of the computer and software. If we can create a working system with our processor, which, for example, will cost not $ 1000 (like others), but $ 500 with equal capacities, this will be a competitive advantage. They flew on our rockets until they found a better offer. The USA and the European Union are not the whole world.

[ccsr]

Quote: Pechkin

They will buy it if it is more competitively profitable even as they buy it.

And do not dream - the largest American and Taiwanese manufacturers will directly silently look at our products, you probably think so. Yes, they do not care about their own people when the question of our vaccine concerns, but here they will spread out in front of us.

Quote: Pechkin

If we can create a working system with our processor, which, for example, will cost not $ 1000 (like others) but $ 500 with equal capacities, this will be a competitive advantage.

It will not be anything, it seems so easy to you. We even have the best air defense systems in the world with our stuffing, which are cheaper than the US ones, we cannot sell in the West, and you are dreaming about processors.

[shahor]

Quote: ccsr

why should we develop something that we cannot sell, even to justify the investment

And since today it is unrealistic to recoup the funds invested in the development in the Russian Federation without export, I propose to invest in a new state-owned company - Rosvor. We have the best specialists in the world. And let's live with processors ...

[sniperino]

Quote: astepanov

we must not forget about the scientific component, and we seem to have lost it forever because of Rogozin's cheap show-off

Because of Rogozin's show-off, the scientific component cannot be deprived, but because of sycophancy in front of the West, it is easy.

[Pereira]

Laughing out loud.
What a level playing field? What can Roscosmos offer that no one else has?
Let's drop Rogozin on the trampoline.

[Dodikson]

what states have to offer that no one else has?

[nsm1]

Cheap powerful rockets.

[Dodikson]

wow, do Americans even have such?

[nsm1]

Yes, even as they exist, moreover, a long time ago.

In 2017, the American commercial company SpaceX with one Falcon 9 rocket was only slightly behind the entire Russian space program in the number of launches.

[Dodikson]

is it really cheap?

[nsm1]

Yes.
Because of it, Roskosmos is cutting prices by 30% in order to remain competitive.

[Dodikson]

I asked - is it really cheap? but not - is it cheaper than Roscosmos is now offering?
because if Roskosmos can safely reduce prices by 30%, then this means that the cheapest are generally Protons, not Falcons.
otherwise Musk would then have reduced prices by 30% to conquer the market and remove a competitor, but for some reason he did not lower prices.
so I'll repeat the question - is it really cheap?

[nsm1]

Yes, it's definitely cheap.
At market prices.
The costs of both spacex and roscosmos are not exactly known.
What is known is that in one criminal case on Roscosmos, only a specific one, there are more than one of them, theft is more than all the expenses for the spacex cosmodrome.
From which you can roughly judge the costs.
Yes, it is definitely cheap.

[Dodikson]

Then why didn't everyone switch from Roscosmos to it, because Proton is expensive, and Falcon is cheap?

[nsm1]

So the contracts did not end.
But Roscosmos has been losing the market for several years, it is a fact of life.

[Dodikson]

so if the contracts have not ended, then why are they switching to Falcon?

[nsm1]

Google to help

[Dodikson]

I know without Google, moreover, I know the prices for both the falcon and the proton without you, but I don't understand why you are telling me fairy tales here.

[nsm1]

So I know.
And your fairy tales are not chanted.

The Proton-M launch vehicle may become cheaper for customers as early as next year than the American Falcon, if Russian component manufacturers can agree on price reductions, says Andrey Tyulin, head of Russian Space Systems (RKS).

[Dodikson]

Moreover, I can tell you that Proton can become cheaper than Falcon even if Roskosmos simply supplies a smaller margin.
then even the supplier's price does not need to be reduced.

[nsm1]

No, you don’t know.
The position is not the same.
That "the head of the company" Russian Space Systems "knows without question.

[Dodikson]

and ragosen knows too. but won't tell.
and no one in their place would have said.
and by the way I know.
For a couple of years we had a heated dispute with Roscosmos employees about the fact that they missed leadership in space and in the course of the dispute interesting figures and documents emerged. and on them the Proton is by no means an expensive rocket. There were more questions about the quality and the fact that with a greater likelihood of a catastrophe of the past years it was not the fault of Roscosmos but someone's sabotage and all the ways went to the mattresses.

[nsm1]

In our system, the position of the leadership is important and nothing more.
It is not so important what the production cost of a proton is, Roscosmos has other costs that need to be recouped.
Including theft, saws, management salaries.
And everything falls on the customer.
Therefore important only market prices.

[Dodikson]

And do you want to discuss theft and saws in the states on the Musk project?
like the states steal our only dream.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

And do you want to discuss theft and saws in the states on the Musk project?
like the states steal our only dream.

Let's discuss, tell us how they steal, with sources only

[Dodikson]

read at least how the patents for the ball were transferred to the Mask, and of specialists by whole departments.

[Dodikson]

I actually answered another person who wanted to know how to steal beyond the cordon.

[nsm1]

Exactly, tupanul, erased.

[military_cat]

Quote: Dodikson

read at least how the patents for the ball were transferred to the Mask, and of specialists by whole departments.

I read it is very funny. People are writing seriously that Musk is using the lunar program's landing thrusters as cruise engines. To confuse engines based on self-igniting components with positive displacement feed and engines with turbopumps running on kerosene and liquid oxygen is at least a candidate of philological sciences.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

read at least how the patents for the ball were transferred to the Mask, and of specialists by whole departments.

Let's sources and I will read? But even so, let's give patents and specialists to some kind of oligarch who invests money in science, in the development of space technology, in energy. And you can just give patents and specialists to Rogozin,

[Rzzz]

Quote: Dodikson

The mask was given patents for the ball, and of specialists by entire departments.

Well, Roskosmos doesn't pay for patents either.

[nsm1]

Of course they steal!
I even read at Grisham's, about the shipyard (this is the author of detective stories, suddenly I don't know).
But only the final result is important.

[Dodikson]

and the end result is huge losses to the US budget to simulate rapid progress.
but on the plus side, I note that the development of technologies and they are also going well. I hope now the ragosen will be combed.

[nsm1]

That's really not interesting about the losses of the United States.
I won't cry, don't care.

[Dodikson]

Th then at the losses of Roskosmos you are filled with flammable tears, and then you have lost some interest.
how before that they stopped being interested in subsidies and saws when it came to states, although they were very interested in you when it came to Roscosmos.

[nsm1]

By itself!
This is my country and Roscosmos is a part of it!
And this is me very, very strong interested!
And on the USA I put my big and fat one.
And with what kind of cabbage America worries you?
Alien galley?
So in that case the conversation is over.

[Dodikson]

liberas what le?
When I see passengers criticizing Russia for any reason, but at the same time they do not want to notice it from others, I immediately see that there is nothing to talk about with such. they are not paid for coming to the truth, but for the propaganda that the customer paid for.

[nsm1]

I'm a patriot.
And for me it is important how we are.
In my land, my country, in that order.
So that all of us, the environment and myself, are happy.
Children in Africa, the US budget matters only if concern us.

[Dodikson]

in our country many thousands of years die of old age, in any system. under the tsars, under the communists, under Eltsin, under Putin and under the next, they will also die.
that I have sad news for you - Russia will always be a bad country because as they were dying of old age, they will continue to die. bad government does not prohibit old age, illness, and does not allow patriots to love their homeland forever.

[nsm1]

Power cannot be good by definition.
Because useful, only a critic can improve the situation, there are always drawbacks.
Praising the authorities is flattery and is harmful to everyone.
This is usually done by low-minded people to cover up theft and gain access to the feeding trough.

[Dodikson]

you need to criticize in moderation.
just try to criticize your wife and never praise. you will feel the consequences.

[sniperino]

Quote: nsm1

Praising the authorities is flattery and is harmful to everyone.

Honestly, sometimes I want to scold the authorities, but as I read how many rookies are pouring dirt on it, I immediately start scolding them, and praising the authorities. Reflexively.

[Horon]

I'm a patriot.

There are more such "patriots" here than people, but what have you done for the Motherland to call yourself that with such pathos? Maybe for a start, call yourself: "I try to be a patriot"?

[sannyhome]

Dodik, excuse me, write nonsense. The economies of the Russian Federation and the United States are too different, this time. To steal 200 rubles out of a thousand rubles or to steal $ 2000 out of a hundred thousand dollars - yes, they steal incomparably more, but the order of prices is different.
Second, yes, our missiles are better and cheaper, but only in their class. RD-180 is kerosene + oxygen, while all new engines make methane + oxygen, which gives a gain in price, performance and environmental friendliness.
Thirdly, kerosene and RD-180 are good for single-use missiles - their use in reusable systems is practically impossible. And in space, methane can be found almost anywhere.

[Dodikson]

I did not write that the Falcon shit.
Moreover, I am in favor of the Mask, because when he was just starting, I wrote that the returnable steps are a step forward and must be done. then when all the media in our country trumpeted that Max was a loshara and that nothing would come of him.
I am still rooting for Musk because he moves the industry forward, but there are also a couple of BUTs.
these are means and methods - Musk is not a genius, he is a project of the US state, he was given patents and people and production, in general, everything that is needed for successful work, and Musk is just a competent manager. and for the sake of fairness, it should be said that a successful and good manager cannot be compared with a passionate one. Musk is at least worried about his job, ragozen worries only about his chair.
But commercially, Musk is not as successful as they want to instill in us. He is stupidly subsidized, so he is kind of cheap.

[nsm1]

Commercial success is determined by the market and nothing more.
You don’t know what is behind the scenes, you are just telling what increases the comfort in your attitude.

[Blackmokona]

The mask was not transferred to production, specialists, and so on.
All this is easy to check, for example a ship, engine and missile factory. This is a former and decommissioned Boeing plant that produced fuselages for aircraft. You yourself understand where the fezulages are, and where the ships and engines are.
You can also see this through competitors, as before the Mask ULA (Boeing and Lockheed Union) flew into space and still fly. Their missile factories are still working and they have not been handed over to Musk.
And the same Rocketdine whom Lockheed recently bought, as he produces engines and produces and did not give his plant to anyone.
Understandably, no one shared the experts either. Musk's chief engine developer is naturally experienced, but he hired him from another company's sinking ship. And then a wave of lawsuits immediately followed him in order to check everything if he had even taken a letter from the last company in his head.

[Vadim237]

This year we are waiting for the start of the SLS Volcano and Neo Glen.

[Barmal]

that is, they made a lobotomy to the developer so that he could not use anything from his head, no?

[Blackmokona]

A careful audit that nothing in the Marilyn engine that he began to develop for SpaceX contained any developments of the past employer.

[Vadim237]

"You cannot compare with Ragozin, Ragozin worries only about his chair." And with all this, in the two years that he was in the chair of the main Roscosmos, the accident rate of launches dropped to zero.

[Blackmokona]

"You cannot compare with Ragozin, Ragozin worries only about his chair." And with all this, in the two years that he was in the chair of the main Roscosmos, the accident rate of launches dropped to zero.

By dropping the number of Proton launches to almost zero, if you do not launch a problematic rocket, then there will be no accidents with it.
Well, it is worth remembering the accident with the Soyuz ship that was at Rogozin.

[ccsr]

Quote: BlackMokona

Well, it is worth remembering the accident with the Soyuz ship that was at Rogozin.

Well, you shouldn't panic, because there have been no accidents for the last two years:

Roscosmos finishes its second year without accidents. For 26 months, fifty successful space launches were carried out in a row. Modern Russian cosmonautics has not known such a "pure" history since 1993. As part of the flight tests, the second launch of the heavy Angara was successfully completed, the Universe was surveyed in the X-ray range using the Spektr-RG telescope, the Sea Launch was relocated to Russia, and new rocket and space technology was being created. Difficulties and tragic events did not pass by: a crack was discovered on the International Space Station, a pandemic postponed the implementation of a number of plans and took the lives of leading space scientists. Read about the main events in the Russian space sector in the RIA Novosti review.

https://ria.ru/20201223/kosmonavtika-1590535864.html

[user1212]

Quote: BlackMokona

By dropping the number of Proton launches to almost zero, if you do not launch a problematic rocket, then there will be no accidents with it.

Why does the proton have a problem, but the union does not? Is there another rogozin driving?

[Cetron]

If the car is in the garage, then it will not get into an accident! And Rogozin breaks even that which cannot be broken ...

[Rzzz]

Quote: Dodikson

but commercially Musk is not as successful as they want to instill in us. He is stupidly subsidized, so he

Therefore, he does not steal money. And Rogozin is also subsidized, and even more than Mask. But, unlike the mask, they steal in Roscosmos.

[astepanov]

Quote: sannyhome

And in space, methane can be found almost anywhere.

And where are you going to look for methane in space? On Titan? It's cheaper to fill a rocket with gold - however, it does not burn ...

[Nyrobsky]

Quote: sannyhome

And in space, methane can be found almost anywhere.

Eco you banged !!! Methane is a decomposition product of organic matter under the influence of acetogenic bacteria. In this connection, there are two questions - How did organic matter form in space? and Where in space can you find bacterial colonies that cheerfully farts with methane sitting on a starvation diet in the absence of deposits of this organic matter?

[Vadim237]

Methane seas can be found only on Titan and can be under the ice crust of Europa if there really is liquid water and if organic life is present there.

[Bolt cutter]

methane can be found almost anywhere in space

In space, diamonds of hundreds of tons can be found ... How are you going to use space methane in rocket-fueling launch?

[Vadim237]

Refueling missiles to Titan send - they will land, throw their trunk and pumping tanks with liquid methane, and such refueling missiles can be made in thousands just for the entire solar system, enough in case of mass development of manned flights

[Bolt cutter]

And to pump oxygen on a neighboring asteroid with a trunk?

[Rzzz]

Musk has the Raptor almost ready. When it flies, then Roscosmos will lag behind forever.

[Keith Richards]

Regarding the lunar orbital station, methane or non-methane engines do not matter at all.
It's not a question of fuel, reusability, or money. And the engines have nothing to do with it.
Russia has no suitable missiles for this station, no suitable ships, nothing. Therefore, they trusted Roskosmos, like everyone else, to create a gateway module and be content with what it has. Roskosmos did not want to, it was negotiating for a long time that went on for several years and in the end did not lead to anything.
The hangara will not handle module delivery or ship delivery in the current configuration. And the A5-B is planned already in 2027. The ship is also stuck at the "finished bottom" level.
What the Americans have is Falcon Heavy, which has already been hanged for the dispatch of the first modules in 2023 (and in the future they will carry cargo to the station on it) (the converted fairing will be ready in a couple of years in accordance with the US Air Force contract), almost ready-made SLS and Orion (both are undergoing final tests), and Orion has even been in space. Plus, New Glenn and Vulcan are at the final stage of development, plus Musk is preparing something new, but it is unclear when his bandura will be ready (not the fact that earlier A5-B). The Americans now have questions only about the landing module, the situation there is not clear, several projects are involved at once, it is still far from the final assembly, however, they will need the descent module only in 2024.

With regards to the ISS, then Russia and the United States were on an equal footing, both had means of launching both cargo and a crew, both could participate in the construction of the station. Right there, Russia is in fact on an equal footing with the same Japs. At the same time, she wanted to adapt to her standards. Well, this is at least not very fair

[Barmal]

Quote: sannyhome

And in space, methane can be found almost anywhere.

what a laugh. Yes, you are still a dreamer, super astronafts will soon find ways to drill these deposits in space and start refueling Musk's rockets right at the place of deployment.
Are you saying that Musk sent a tesla dummy into outer space to scout for methane deposits in some unknown place?

[shahor]

Quote: Dodikson

And do you want to discuss theft and saws in the states on the Musk project?

I want to discuss! Tell us where and how Musk steals! I know about Russia.

[nsm1]

VIENNA, June 22 - RIA Novosti. Roscosmos CEO Dmitry Rogozin in an interview with RIA Novosti said that the Proton project is being closed.

[Cosm22]

Mr. Dodikson, before talking about Protons, does not interfere with learning materiel.
Back in June 2018, Rogozin loudly announced that he had stopped work on the Proton project. Bobik is dead.
Currently, Roskosmos is creating a launch vehicle, only previously stipulated in contracts. So, in 2020 there was only 1 (ONE !!!!!) Proton launch from Express-80 and Express-103.
What are you talking about in general? How is the proton, which has died in the Bose, sideways to modern launch vehicles?

[Vadim237]

The Protons are still performing their function, but they will not have much time left in 2024 their production will be curtailed.

[Rzzz]

There Kazakhstan began to seriously object to heptyl fuel.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

I know without Google, moreover, I know the prices for both the falcon and the proton without you, but I don't understand why you are telling me fairy tales here.

The first stage is resistance, then there will be the stage of acceptance. Roskosmos loses clients and money, and Musk makes money

[Dodikson]

the first stage is faith.
but then reality will come.
and the reality is that Musk earns not on clients, but on subsidies from which the United States pays him, so that he would seem like a leader and a type of efficient carrier.
and Roscosmos loses clients because the United States is willing to pay clients to use THEIR services.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

the first stage is faith.
but then reality will come.
and the reality is that Musk earns not on clients, but on subsidies from which the United States pays him, so that he would seem like a leader and a type of efficient carrier.
and Roscosmos loses clients because the United States is willing to pay clients to use THEIR services.

So let ours also pay extra, just as simple, it must be then de bi la mi to lose all clients when you can just pay extra to yourself

[Dodikson]

We do not have a printing press to print bucks, so ours have long decided that they will reduce the price as much as possible (after 30% they can lower it even further), but in general they will curtail the usual commercial supplies and the main work will go to the military.
the truth is that they started stirring up the hangar again. so it may still change.

[military_cat]

Quote: Dodikson

we do not have a printing press to print bucks

The United States prints its currency. Well, no one bothers us, too, to print our own, while the United States does it.

[Dodikson]

The United States, through WWII, made its dollar an international currency, and it will not allow anyone to make a competitor to the dollar. and to print something that no one will be able to sell their buck like the states is hyperinflation.
learn at least the basics or something.

[military_cat]

And "to make the world currency" - is it a magic spell that saves you from hyperinflation, regardless of the pace of the printing press?

[Dodikson]

yes, and again - learn the basics.

[military_cat]

With pleasure. And how will this spell save the dollar from hyperinflation, if, for example, you print ten-kilometer dollars from what is currently being circulated?

[Dodikson]

war ............

[military_cat]

You want to say that everyone is afraid of the US military power, and nobody is afraid of the Russian one?

[hydro]

Good morning) ahahaha

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

The United States, through WWII, made its dollar an international currency, and it will not allow anyone to make a competitor to the dollar. and to print something that no one will be able to sell their buck like the states is hyperinflation.
learn at least the basics or something.

Does China also print?

[Mrsim]

And if we print their bucks on an industrial scale?

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

We do not have a printing press to print bucks, so ours have long decided that they will reduce the price as much as possible (after 30% they can lower it even further), but in general they will curtail the usual commercial supplies and the main work will go to the military.
the truth is that they started stirring up the hangar again. so it may still change.

Where did the Americans get their printing press? Let's get another one there?

[nsm1]

And what is it for?
Perhaps it is.
And what's the point?
Your fairy tales will not help Roscosmos, nor will Russia ...
Why are they?
To be comfortable in an imaginary world?

[Mikhail Ya2]

In order not to be unfounded, write how much and when does Mask pay extra? By years and amounts. If you write it so confidently, you probably know it.

[Cosm22]

Mr. Dodikson, I apologize for interfering with the dialogue. But he hooked me.
Since you are such a great specialist in this field and are aware of the pricing policy, please be so kind as to voice the specific prices for launching the launch vehicle.
I emphasize - SPECIFIC values. Specific figures.
By Protons.
Falcon 9.
According to Soyuz-2.1b.
According to Soyuz-ST-A.
I repeat: I need specific numbers. Your "I already know everything" and "Google to help" will not suit me.
I'll wait.

[MMX]

Yes, it's definitely cheap.

The costs of both spacex and roscosmos are not exactly known.

Alone, do I see a contradiction here?

[nsm1]

There is no contradiction, for customers there are no prices other than market prices.

[MMX]

I deeply do not care about the opinions of customers and market prices. Specifically, there was your statement that the Americans have a "cheap powerful missile."
And then the recognition that there is no data on the cost of missiles ...
L-logic

[nsm1]

Once again, the market position is determined by the market price.
That's all.
Customers are not interested in subsidies, saws, only their own pocket, period.

[MMX]

Once again - the cost of the rocket is unknown!
Amers do not have a cheap rocket.
That's all.

[nsm1]

There is a cheaper price than a proton.
That's all.

[MMX]

What are you, sick person? The price list does not indicate the cost of the rocket

[Dodikson]

so subsidies and saws from Roskosmos for some reason you were interested before, but then stopped?

[nsm1]

In terms of costs, cost in the price list, do not confuse warm with soft.

[ccsr]

Quote: nsm1

There is no contradiction, for customers there are no prices other than market prices.

Nifiga - there is the cost of production in production, there is a selling price for intermediaries, and there is a market price that can float at least due to supply and demand at the moment.
Therefore, it is quite obvious that Roskosmos is carefully hiding, even from the Accounts Chamber, the true cost of production of all our launch vehicles in order to receive super-dividends both in the domestic and international markets when our missiles are used. In general, if we consider how many years we have already been producing our products, then we can definitely say that they will be much cheaper than the Mask products at cost price, which is why it was so easy to reduce the price by 30%.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: ccsr

it is quite obvious that Roskosmos carefully conceals even from the Accounts Chamber the true cost of production of all our media

Quote: ccsr

we can definitely say that they will be much cheaper than Mask products

This is how Roscosmos disrupts the cost, but a simple user with VO knows everything

[ccsr]

Quote: Eye of the Crying

This is how Roscosmos disrupts the cost, but a simple user with VO knows everything

This is a state secret - we even hid the cost of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, and it was sold at different prices all over the world. Any military representative will confirm this to you - they are just struggling with the fact that the industry does not tear up extra money from the military.

[Dodikson]

and how many contradictions there will be when the fact that Musk is subsidized by the state will come to light, and the difference in launches will be compensated for to make it look cheaper.
(there are a lot of interesting nuances)

[nsm1]

But this is not essential for sales.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

and how many contradictions there will be when the fact that Musk is subsidized by the state will come to light, and the difference in launches will be compensated for to make it look cheaper.
(there are a lot of interesting nuances)

Until you get out? That is, it may turn out that this is nothing more than your dreams?

[Disant]

Until you get out? That is, it may turn out that this is nothing more than your dreams?

There are no privateers in space.
The mask for space was given by everything - launch sites, ready-made test benches, teams of engineers from NASA and Northropgruman. This is a legalized state business in a new guise.

[zlinn]

the launch pads were not given to him, but they were leased, and it was the pads themselves, their equipment did not fit and was completely replaced, NASA provides ready-made test benches to everyone and also for money (the agency was created for this), but the existing stands did not satisfy spaces in full and I had to create some on my own, the engineering teams at NASA are not serfs and can move to another place of work, but only there were almost no specialists necessary for SpaceX (there were no engine engineers there at all, they initially worked in private companies in all kinds of rocketdines and lockhids) the mask could be approached by NASA specialists from NASA's flight control centers, but judging by the very young faces from the broadcasts of their launches, at the time of the formation of the spaces they were still in school and could not work at NASA, the NASA itself was terribly clumsy and a callous office, and she has no choice but to help young and zealous watchmakers in every possible way, otherwise they succeedSLS (which, under the strict guidance of Nasa, is also sawed by watchmakers, but they are just as fat and snickering as Nasa itself), they just found a different approach to the development of the industry, and do not spread rot on their entrepreneurs like RK Dauria

[Disant]

I have nothing to argue with you, because I cited well-known facts, and you are trying to object, nodding at "young non-serf faces", and talking about an almost finished engine, forgetting to say that this engine was given to Musk along with the stands and the results of almost ten years of work on the program "National Launch Initiative", for which the state paid money and "accidentally" closed it in 2000 + documentation and technologies from the lunar program (NOT PATENTS !!) the TRW team brought with them. And, of course, all this was accidentally organized by PRIVATEER Musk.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Disant

Until you get out? That is, it may turn out that this is nothing more than your dreams?

There are no privateers in space.
The mask for space was given by everything - launch sites, ready-made test benches, teams of engineers from NASA and Northropgruman. This is a legalized state business in a new guise.

So even if and so well and, what next oh, well, given for example and? And that after that his missiles stopped flying and the number of commercial launches decreased? So let's give, for example, the Rothenbergs

[Disant]

So even if and so well and, what next oh, well, given for example and?

and then:
a rocket costs five rubles, and its development and infrastructure costs a thousand. Here's a thousand and they gave the Mask, burying this thousand in the previous decades of development. You are comparing the cost of rockets. According to Musk's documents, it costs five rubles.
.

That is, it may turn out that this is nothing more than your dreams?

I repeat:

I have nothing to argue with you, because I cited well-known facts, and you are trying to object, nodding at "young non-serf faces", and talking about an almost finished engine, forgetting to say that this engine was given to Musk along with the stands and the results of almost ten years of work on the program "National Launch Initiative", for which the state paid money and "accidentally" closed it in 2000 + documentation and technologies from the lunar program (NOT PATENTS !!) the TRW team brought with them. And, of course, all this was accidentally organized by PRIVATEER Musk.

.
where are the dreams? here is a reality.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Disant

You are comparing the cost of rockets.

Launch cost

[Disant]

I do not see a contradiction - both there and there money is counted and it does not matter from which heap it is counted and how it is then divided

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Disant

I do not see a contradiction - both there and there money is counted and it does not matter from which heap it is counted and how it is then divided

With the cost of the rocket included in the launch cost, the cost of launching the falcon is cheaper. If there is evidence to the contrary, then you can provide it. The very idea of ​​a return stage aims to reduce cost

[bayard]

The mask was opened by NASA archives and patents, and NASA engineers and designers passed to it (by agreement).
And his rockets are reusable, on engines with low specific characteristics, but high resource.
And they provided him with orders.
The missiles were created under specific long-term contracts. This is the economy.
And Roskosmos has better engines, but the rockets are disposable. Therefore, all launches are much more expensive.
And the lease of Baikonur for Proton.

[Cosm22]

bayard, take the trouble to explain what is meant by the term "low specific performance" in relation to rocket engines. To me, as a person who is in the slightest degree in the subject, it will be extremely interesting.
For after your words, I begin to think that the Merlin-1D + rocket engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 190: 1 and an indicator of weight perfection of 4,15% is a complete crap compared to the thrust-to-weight ratio of the RD-170/180 in the region of 86: 1 and an indicator of weight perfection of 2,93% (not to mention the fact that with a 180th throttling resource it is impossible even to think about reusability).
Or is it about UI? Then explain why the first stage of the launch vehicle needs the priority of high PI over high thrust-to-weight ratio.

[bayard]

Of course I'm talking about UI and chamber pressure. And they took care of the potential reusability of the RD-170 even during the creation of Energia, trying to make the first steps reusable, dropping them on parachutes (unrealized plans).
When tested for service life, the RD-170 was found suitable for at least 10 reuse ... but the issue of returning them to the ground was not resolved.
Rather, I chose the wrong term. RD-170 \ 180 are more technological, but they are heavier. And of course, from an economic point of view, "Merlin" is preferable.
But the coefficient of conversion of thermal energy into traction energy in our engines is higher.

[zlinn]

NASA archives and patents are already open to all aerospace offices of the United States, the agency is national and its products and patents belong to the nation

[bayard]

Musk turned out to be just a "confidant" who got it all (documentation, personnel) when it was decided to cut NASA and transfer functions of developing spacecraft and rockets to private companies.
And it seems to me that he justified the trust placed and continues to justify.
And of course he was not alone, just perhaps the brightest to date.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: bayard

Mask opened by NASA archives and patents

They are open to all American corporations.

Quote: bayard

it was taken over (by agreement) by NASA engineers and designers.

Could you provide a link to this agreement?

[shahor]

Quote: bayard

And they provided him with orders.

Just don't feed us fakes. We provided orders ... Musk took part in a competition for the fulfillment of a government order, where he had two competitors. Most of the tender was won by Boeing, and Musk won an order for the construction of a cargo and manned spacecraft, which he fulfilled (forgot the name of the ship, I think, Trampoline-1) and the system for delivering them to the ISS. In a competition, he won several launches for the military.

[bayard]

Did I say something to the detriment of Musk's reputation?
He won competitions, he did the job properly, he did the rocket and the ship. But you must agree that such cases still cannot do without patronage - the same loan under such a program will not be given to just anyone. And he still launches more commercial satellites.
And the fact that he employed the laid-off NASA employees is only a plus for him.

[shahor]

Quote: bayard

But you must agree that such cases still cannot do without protection -

Your mistake is that you are projecting Russian reality onto a foreign country. Protection ... How do you imagine it to yourself? The administration official calls the head of NASA - listen, here we need to help one correct kid!
Musk is protected by his knowledge, talent, energy. Brilliant organizational skills. But the main thing is dedication. See how this richest man in the world manages the earned (keyword, not stolen) funds. Did he build himself a palace in Miami with an aquadiskotheque? He invests them in the development of advanced technologies - protection from carbon dioxide emissions, new modes of transport, solar panels ... And yes, sometimes he is wrong. But - on our own, not on the budget. Shall we throw a stone at him for this? And the rest, I agree with you.

[bayard]

Quote: shahor

Protection ... How do you imagine it to yourself? The administration official calls the head of NASA - listen, here we need to help one correct kid!

They call it lobbying, it is even a profession, it is a legal and highly respected occupation.
And yes - there is also a telephone right ... and protection.
Look at the Biden family and a lot will become clear to you.
But Musk is a really talented engineer and organizer.
But miracles do not happen.

[Disant]

The costs of both spacex and roscosmos are not exactly known.

then why are you fantasizing about the cheapness or high cost of something ????????)))))))

[Blackmokona]

Yes, Protons out of production could not stand the competition. And the Angara is more expensive than the Proton, even if it will be produced in large quantities according to the statements.

[slipped]

Protons have been discontinued due to the impossibility of launching them from 2025.

[Blackmokona]

And what is stopping them from launching them after 2025? Has the firmament increased?

[slipped]

Quote: BlackMokona

And what is stopping them from launching them after 2025? Has the firmament increased?

Kazakhstan.

[Blackmokona]

That is, it is impossible to build a start for Protons in Russia, and the diplomatic weight is not enough to push the extension for Kazakhstan?

[slipped]

Quote: BlackMokona

That is, it is impossible to build a start for Protons in Russia, and the diplomatic weight is not enough to push the extension for Kazakhstan?

The second launch complex for Angara missiles is under construction in Russia. Kazakhstan banned launches of Protons back in the 90s, but all this time, thanks to "diplomatic weight" and by mutual agreement, we launched Protons from Baikonur and finally we stop launches only in 2025, after the serial launches begin A5. This year there will be three launches of the Proton-M LV and one launch of the Angara-A5 LV.

[Blackmokona]

That is, there were no problems and further let Protons go if desired.

[slipped]

Quote: BlackMokona

That is, there were no problems and further let Protons go if desired.

I see it's getting to you that Kazakhstan is against. And they have no desire. Instead of Proton, the even cheaper and safer Soyuz-5 from the 45th site will be used in joint operation for the same loads.

[astepanov]

Quote: Dodikson

this means that Protons are generally cheap

Protons? These are the ones that have been discontinued and replaced with the Angara A5, not put into production, the one whose first manned launch is scheduled for 2025? Yes, you're right: a missile that doesn't exist is always cheaper than the one that is.

[slipped]

Quote: astepanov

Protons? These are the ones that have been discontinued and replaced with the Angara A5, not put into production, the one whose first manned launch is scheduled for 2025? Yes, you're right: a missile that doesn't exist is always cheaper than the one that is.

A strange post. This year both Proton and Angara launches.

[keeper03]

In the USA, apparently, they have not heard the saying - a miser pays twice! Space is not a place where they save on resources and the lives of astronauts !!! The reusable blank is just a price-cutting tool and a false path the Americans want us to take.

[zlinn]

This is where the notion that reusable rockets are less safe than disposable ones comes from? for the same mask, all 5 accidents occurred with new missiles, and with the used one, none? green grapes?

[keeper03]

Green grapes - until ripe! But to predict the destruction of a reusable blank is not rewarding and expensive!

[Pereira]

They can offer their leadership in international programs. And no one will dispute their leading role.
If they want, they will take it, they want to throw it out.

[Dodikson]

well, yes, but they want, they will go to the genitals,
and even if they don't want to, they will.
in space, despite all my dislike for ragosen, ours can still do something.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Dodikson

well, yes, but they want, they will go to the genitals,
and even if they don't want to, they will.
in space, despite all my dislike for ragosen, ours can still do something.

What can they do? Drill holes?

[Dodikson]

this is for mattresses. their methods.

[Starover_Z]

the decision to exclude Russian representatives from the expert group on the creation of the station was made after repeated statements by the Russians about their insufficient role in the project.

Well yes ! They are from Russian specialists who worked on the ISS and at the station itself fished out all sorts of important subtleties, on the creation, maintenance and repairs, and then "the Moor did the job, the Moor can dump" ... in a word!

[Blackmokona]

Super-heavy rocket SLS, which is undergoing tests, the Orion interplanetary spacecraft, which has already been assembled and is waiting for the SLS to be ready, advanced space electronics, etc.

[Dodikson]

well, how will it go and then we will talk, otherwise they have experienced how many engines, but everything goes crashing down (though not with Musk, but with Bezos, but still)

[Blackmokona]

It's just that they are on tests, but we have not figured out the pictures yet.
Everyone decides which one to choose. Do you understand the difference?

[Dodikson]

is Proton a picture? probably like the Crimean bridge in Mosfilm was removed.

[Blackmokona]

I'm talking about a super-heavy rocket.
Well, Proton will soon become a picture, it was removed from production.

The head of Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin told RIA Novosti about the decision to stop working on the Proton project after the last launch vehicles have been made under the contracts already signed.

News 2018.
https://www.forbes.ru/tehnologii/363553-reshitelnyy-otkaz-pochemu-rossiya-prekrashchaet-vypusk-svoih-samyh-moshchnyh-raket
Now everything is stopped.

NPO Energomash has created engines for all ordered Proton-M launch vehicles and will no longer be engaged in their production. This was stated by the general director of the enterprise Igor Arbuzov, reports "RIA Novosti".

Read more at RBC:
https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/5d35a6149a79478e2a08a233?utm_source=amp_full-link

[Dodikson]

and where did Angara disappear into a parallel reality?

[Blackmokona]

And Angara is much more expensive than Proton.

As noted by "RIA Novosti" with reference to the data of state purchases, under the contract dated April 2020, the cost of manufacturing the Proton-M rocket for launching the Express-AMU4 telecommunications satellite is 2,33 billion rubles. Thus, the Angara was three times more expensive than the Proton. By the time the serial production of Angara is expected, its prime cost will remain one and a half times more than that of Proton-M.

https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/29/06/2020/5ef934f69a7947d71570b6ac

[Dodikson]

and from this it will cease to exist and become a picture?

[Blackmokona]

I'm talking about super-heavy, rockets throwing above 100 tons at LEO according to the Soviet classification. SLS super-heavy, our super-heavy only in pictures

[Dodikson]

SLS is still only in the picture.
moreover, as early as 4 years.

[Blackmokona]

On tests, she plans to fly into space this year. May be delayed in testing, but a rocket in iron has been produced

[Dodikson]

according to her plans, she had to fly back in 2017

[Blackmokona]

There are big delays there, but the process is going on and everything is moving.

[Dodikson]

and he can move for a long time ... like shit in an ice hole.

[zlinn]

Well, what to do, let their beloved Boeing down, but it's not scary, the Boeing is not alone there and the rocket will of course fly, and if the NASU starts to press heavily, then modules up to 14 tons and Orion can also roll a heavy load to the moon, so it's obvious they are in no hurry, nasa has been rusty for a long time and cannot move quickly

[Alex777]

what states have to offer that no one else has?

Money. Therefore, we only left the gateway.

[Disant]

it is a space race (by analogy with the arms race), and there are dead ends in it, like on a road.
This program is a dead end into which the Americans crawled, not seeing what would happen next. And then, to maintain the program, HUGE money will be needed and the PURPOSE should be visible.
No goal, money will run out

[Horon]

So Russia needs to agree on any terms?
Situation: you have your own "fret", which needs only timely service, and the neighbor has a "Mercedes" in which you will be allowed to ride in the back seat if you wash it (Mercedes) and rub it to a shine every day. What will you choose? Maybe Rogozin is right in this case? And you need to throw off not on a trampoline, but on your own space industry and science!

[zwlad]

What can Roscosmos offer that no one else has?

Rogozin!

[sleeve]

Oh how? Did we "participate in the program"?

[dauria]

Did we "participate in the program"?

It seems like ... the project is international, there is no direct immediate benefit. The swing was generally to the transshipment base of the Martian expeditions. The United States has offered to spread the cost to the whole world under its strict leadership.
In principle, they could work for their money. At least zero cost, just train specialists. And so, just for the sake of dubious prestige - not that situation.

[Maki maki]

It's good that they refused outright. Otherwise, they could keep them at a taut leash for years.

[Pessimist22]

Now it was a shame

[The leader of the Redskins]

Another "victory" Rogozin.
You need to get up and applaud.

[Pessimist22]

Well, while we began to lag behind the United States and China in space, it will be seen further.

[RMT]

Is the USA the main one in this program?

[lis-ik]

Quote: RMT

Is the USA the main one in this program?

Most likely, Roscosmos has nothing interesting to offer, new developments and, most importantly, there are no specialists.

[ZAV69]

Quote: lis-ik

Most likely, Roscosmos has nothing interesting to offer, new developments and, most importantly, there are no specialists.

Most likely, just remove the competitor. In reality, no one can pull the entire program completely under current conditions. And then they took advantage of the opportunity to kill a competitor forever.

[mark1]

Quote: ZAV69

Most likely, just remove the competitor.

Yes, it seems that he is not a competitor (Roskosmos) at all, he excluded himself from the competition (the enemy) and now he simply does not represent interest. We must take it and refuse superheavy! And this despite the fact that all the constituent elements remain in development - "Soyuz-5", "Soyuz-6", the hydrogen stage ... Whole academicians of the Russian Academy of Sciences have given up a thought!

[Disant]

everything is beautiful - we did not allow ourselves to plunge into the Moon Gate and unnecessary superheavy weights and, with our desire to participate, pulled the Americans there as much as we could.
Congratulations to all of us!
we have everything - Supernova manned Soyuz, a share on the ISS, a line of Angara rockets for various tasks, Soyuz-5 for the military, a floating platform, new cosmodromes and a pearl in this collection, the future of all cosmonautics - a nuclear tug under construction - the most powerful power plant for any orbit and a horse for interplanetary travel!

Americans - I wish more launches, more flags on the moon and that the program is not cut.

[Alexander 3]

After all, the Americans are selling summer cottages on the moon; they don't want us to be neighbors.

[faiver]

I don't really understand, but what did our guys count on? Peace, friendship, gum are long over, every man for himself

[Ruby]

All technologies for a long stay in space were merged during the implementation of the ISS project. There is nothing more to take from us. Nothing surprising, just business.

[Lech from Android.]

All technologies for a long stay in space were merged during the implementation of the ISS project.

Deceived by the damned for jeans, friendship and gum.
Here are the cheats, threw the damned , on sailors and abandoned here and believe them after that.
Soon Biden will begin to breed Putin and, according to START, putting forward new demands such as peace, friendship, chewing gum.

[rocket757]

Not interesting ... not anywhere.

[Retvizan 8]

Damn, so they made a trampoline after all!

[donavi49]

The main trampoline on this topic was shot unsuccessfully by the way with an early emergency shutdown.


Plus Biden has slightly different priorities. I would not be surprised if the station goes a couple of years further in terms of time.

[Blackmokona]

Starship has every chance of intercepting contracts from SLS

[donavi49]

Well, the barrel still has a lot of work to do. Again, SLS, despite its incredible cost (the most expensive space program and rocket today), is still a relatively low-risk project.

The barrel is a revolutionary project, so the risks are sky-high. Again, if it does fly with a reasonable delay - 2-3 years, then all other medium-heavy carriers will become obsolete at once. If not, then it may well ruin or displace Musk from the leading position. Since competitors make their methane tanks on the classical scheme with a return or optimization of production, which is impossible for Musk (because the entire plant must be rebuilt and a rocket made for a new technological process). When the new classic generation flies, the 9ka will no longer be so attractive in price.

[Blackmokona]

Musk can always shrink the rocket again and make a methane Falcon-9 based on the Starship's developments. It is possible that his engineers are working on an alternative, just in case. For example, this indicates that he had a contract with the military to study the installation of the Raptor on the second stage of the Falcon-9

[donavi49]

Well, making a modernized 9ku on methane (which will also result in an increase in the booster resource) is the most logical and safe decision from the point of view of business and keeping the start-up market share in the future.

[OgnennyiKotik]

SLS is a niche project, the market does not need it. Its price is exorbitant, although they use ready-made solutions from the Shuttle program. At the same time, unsuccessful tests of already flown engines. Everything is very strange.
Boeing has been disappointing lately and needs reforms.

[donavi49]

Well, SLS is a budget of 100%, at most what thread a mission to Europe or Titan will take with the landing or military something especially heavy to high. As well as Delta in general.

I meant all sorts of private traders like Terran1, Bezos, Fireflies in Beta and Gama (22-24), well, Vulcan Centaur from ULA and even SoyuzSPG.

[OgnennyiKotik]

Private traders, yes. I think this year they will start to eat up orders seriously. In the next, full-fledged competition will begin. What is very good, monopolists are not needed.

[Vadim237]

"If it does fly with a reasonable delay - 2-3 years." It will fly only in an unmanned cargo version, and in a manned one, it was hardly earlier than 2030 - there was no work lying around. Super Heavy did not complete a single flight and it was not even assembled.

[loki565]

Quite an interesting version of why he "choked"

[forty-eighth]

Is it like the author of an opus about the "flying pasta monster Mask"?

[Pavel73]

If the Americans had such conditions, they were obviously unacceptable for us. And the Americans knew this from the very beginning.

[Guru]

Reuters reported in May that the US was preparing a new deal. for mining on the moon, but Russia's participation in this project is not envisaged, since the Pentagon opposes, considering Russia an enemy in space.

That is, they are already sharing minerals. The fact that the Americans would throw us out of this program was initially clear, at least because of the attempts that the Americans were doing with regard to Alpha.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

We need our own lunar station.

The moon is a source of resources and a springboard for further space exploration, we also need to stake out a site there.

[Disant]

We need our own lunar station.

you need - you build. For their money.
Do you know how much in the end one rocket to the Moon costs for the Americans, how much does the entire Lunar Gateway program cost in the end and WHAT ARE THE GOALS? Yes, it's cheaper to reach the golden staircase there.

we also need to stake out a plot there.

what are you going to post, knowing nothing - smaller or larger moonstones? Siberia is worth undeveloped.
and so yes - they trade in whole stars, the count's certificates are issued in the passage

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

I also accept this participation, I work and pay taxes and I want my country to develop in all directions.

And you, most likely, are not interested in anything other than your wallet.

The moon has a unique resource - "Helios 3" is the fuel of the future, among other things, there are reserves of titanium and other minerals.

And Siberia is not going anywhere, everything has already been explored and evaluated there. Or do you want to live there? Well, go ahead, there are plenty of places, only for half a year the temperature there is very low, often around -50 and below.

Try to think about what the country will do when the hydrocarbon reserves in Siberia are depleted? Do you think someone will give you some amount of an alternative fuel source?

No, we need to think about it now.

We need a base on the moon and a station in lunar orbit and a nuclear powered shuttle for transport between the lunar station and the earth station.

And then we will eventually be able to extract resources on the moon, and then on asteroids, some of which consist of non-ferrous metals, gold and platinum, for example.

The most costly is the launch of people and cargo from the Earth into space, but over time this problem will also be solved.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

The moon has a unique resource - "Helios 3"

Helios is the Greek god and the resource is helium-3. It is, of course, unique, but they don't know how to use it and don't even learn. When you need it, nobody knows. Perhaps by that time it will be more profitable to mine it in the atmosphere of Jupiter.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Yes, it is clear that Helium 3, not Helios. I did not notice the phone.

So they do not know how to use it, because it is minuscule on Earth, but on the Moon it is abundant.

We need stations on earth orbit and on the lunar and on the moon itself, and we need to do this right now, without strain or haste, but move forward.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

So they don't know how to use it, because on Earth its minuscule

No. Helium-3 is a potential thermonuclear fuel. They do not know how to use it, because 1) there is simply no practically useful thermonuclear now; 2) there is no practically useful thermonuclear reaction on helium-3 even on the horizon.

[Disant]

The moon has a unique resource - "Helios 3" is the fuel of the future, among other things, there are reserves of titanium and other minerals.

Ratmir, I can burst, but helium3 is, first of all, a controlled thermonuclear reaction, the technology of obtaining which will be fought for another 50-70 years installations and receiving data from them). That is, helium3 on an industrial scale may take a hundred years. After 100 years, astronautics will change, and from this it will be necessary to dance.

Try to think about what the country will do when the hydrocarbon reserves in Siberia are depleted? Do you think someone will give you some amount of an alternative fuel source?

... What we can get NOW will be enough for a hundred years.
The reserves of ALREADY EXTRACTED fuel for nuclear power plants around the world in Russia alone will last for 700-800 years. Nuclear power plants are now already 20 percent in the energy balance of our country. + HPP 20% + sun and wind. The share of hydrocarbons is steadily declining. Hydrogen will partially come to replace gasoline by that time (in Japan they are already driving on it, there is a network of gas stations).
We ourselves can provide anyone with electricity and, mind you, hydrogen, which is produced at nuclear power plants.
.
Helium3 - production - not even the whole earth ball can handle now, and there are no technologies for survival and maintenance of a lunar soil processing plant in space (and on the Moon). There is also no electricity on the moon for the plant (only one Lunar tractor mark2 - weight 18 tons, digging depth -3 meters, digging width -11 m, speed - 23 m / h - what to power from?)
.
Helium3 is not yet relevant. Titanium is on Earth in sufficient quantities.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

I read that uranium on the planet at the current rate of production will last for 60 years in total.

[Disant]

We need a base on the moon and a station in lunar orbit and a nuclear powered shuttle for transport between the lunar station and the earth station.

And then we can eventually extract resources on the moon,

Ratmir, it turns out that the resources on the Moon are not yet available and, accordingly, bases and stations with people are not needed there. But the robot repairman Fedor and others like him other automation such as a flying generator and a taxi in the form of a nuclear tug are very needed in the orbit of the Moon.
.
in the form of a fantasy - we will avenge our exclusion from the Program (which is being discussed here) - Attach a laser to the tug (there is energy!), start driving! in orbits, burn a couple of heliotractors on production, and declare that the Moon is still yours. )))) This will be a normal wild wild West, everything as the partners want and according to their rules.
.
On a nuclear tug, it is not a nuclear engine that is installed to move, but a bunch of electric rocket engines. The nuclear installation serves as an electrical outlet

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

It is clear that a nuclear reactor is a power source, and ion engines.

And with the rest, everything is as you described.

We build our own station in earth orbit, send a nuclear transport ship there with its help, build a station in lunar orbit and deliver all the materials and cargo for the lunar station, then we land a landing party there and all the Moon is ours!

Only so with them.

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

It is clear that a nuclear reactor is a power source, and ion engines.

This is not the case with Nuclon.

[Disant]

we build a station in lunar orbit and deliver all the materials and cargo for the lunar station, then we land the troops there and the whole moon is ours!

too difficult.
landing on the moon is pointless - we kill everyone from orbit and sit like a dog in the manger in orbit.
Accordingly, a circumlunar base is also not needed. No people in space, only Fyodor in a vest with a repair cutter wanders around the hull of the tug.
A near-earth station for capturing the moon can also be excluded. The tugboat in low-earth orbit will simply dock with the payload, Fedor will twist the twists of wires and that's it.
We spend the money saved from the lunar, circumlunar and near-earth stations on another heels of tugboats with a load in the form of lasers and other scientific devices, and drink the rest.
but there is also a minus in this scenario - you have to have a couple of space admiral posts, and this is extra mouths and expenses

[Retvizan 8]

Some have weird malevolent comments.
They wrote in Russian that we are for equal participation, but this does not suit the people.
We get the result.
Everything related to space is very expensive, I wonder who is left in their team?
Here Russia is not so easy to replace with some kind of Poland or Tribaltika.

[donavi49]

In the sense of? It initially considered a small participation of Russia with 1 module (docking gateway).

They have Canada, Japan and ESA.

[mojohed2012]

I believe that the rest of the project participants are capable of pulling the entire project without Russia.

[slipped]

Docking. With the Russian part. That the Americans don't want.

[Venya Selnikov]

Quote: Retvizan 8

we are for equal participation, but this does not suit the people.

Equal participation requires equal contributions. For money and means.
Objectively, we can neither spend, how many Americans, nor the technical means for OLO we (in foreseeable readiness) do not have.
Despite constant delays and cost overruns, the Americans already have a lot in the final stages - SLS, Orion, and more. They are proceeding in a planned way, they have reliable partners who are ready to invest as well - very large sums of money in this project.
Apart from the free statements of inadequate industry leaders "yes, we can do what you want, only for your money" - what is there? For OLO?
So there is only our inadequacy (at the request of equal participation) with our real unwillingness (in terms of money and means) to ensure this equality on our part.

[7,62x54]

Rogozin was bombing on the Shah. Stands by the wreck and twists the keychain on his finger. Who would you like to give, are there fearless passengers?

[Disant]

in more detail about the shaha and fearlessness - how is this expressed and what do you compare with

[Runway]

For three years Rogozin declared about ... what is the pop, so is the parish.
"We will not stand up for a ride" (V. Putin)

[prior]

The country that opened space to the world is no longer needed by the world in space.
They were rebuilding .......

[Runway]

It was a different country.

[Vadim237]

And what's more, there is another country - the whole world does not stand still, everything is moving and changing, other countries also have their own space programs, and after the triumph of Spaces, private space offices have grown by leaps and bounds. The space monopoly of the two countries has come to an end.

[yfast]

Quote: donavi49

In the sense of? It initially considered a small participation of Russia with 1 module (docking gateway). They have Canada, Japan and ESA.

Let it do it yourself.

[donavi49]

Well, they decided for themselves, all by themselves, what this article is actually about .

[A song]

Anyway, is it necessary. Invest in the current lag. With a current economy.

[Ros 56]

Haha, on this topic we ourselves with a mustache, we don't need striped ones either.

[Ros 56]

And rightly so, instead of us dashing tribalts will be with Lyakhs, Georgians and Ukrainians. Here is such a combined hodgepodge.

[mojohed2012]

In our last years in Roskosmos, apart from "advertising" and "daring statements" about success, there is still no sense. We can barely ensure our presence on the ISS, as well as intermittently supply our cosmonauts with food (ours increasingly borrow rations from sworn friends). What moon, what stations are we talking about, if the ISS is at the seams. Its service life is not rubber and there are more and more air leaks, wear of equipment and casing.
It's not about revenge for laptops and so on, but deeper. 1. There is no funding for space programs. 2. There is no order and control in the industry. The identified defects follow one after another. 3. The leadership declares promises and grandiose prospects only in words, not in deeds. The United States threatened and predicted a trampoline launch of ships to the ISS, but nothing came out.
I want to. I really want to believe that we will overtake and overtake our "friends", we ourselves will create stations near the Moon and on the Moon, but alas, there is little hope ...

[OgnennyiKotik]

The ISS has already been decommissioned in 24, the United States clearly will not continue this project. At best, they will extend it for a couple of years. It's just that Russia has nothing to offer. The moment when we were actually the only ones who could launch rockets into space is a fucking mess. Huge money received for this was stolen. A logical result.

[Vadim237]

"The identified defects follow one after the other." And it's bad for you that defects are detected at the production stage? "The leadership declares promises and grandiose prospects only in words, not in deeds." And in production it shows that the work is going on and the wind does not walk through the buildings.

[sannyhome]

How neatly the Americans switched from American participation in international projects to American projects with international participation. In which they are already the main ones.

[Redfox3k]

Reminds me of a joke:
Doorbell. At the doorstep is a neighbor with a sheet of paper and a pen.
- Will you participate in group sex?
- And who is involved?
“You, me and your wife.”
- Here's another! Of course I won’t!
- Well, then I cross out you ...

[Svetlana]

The project is still only at the stage of discussion, nothing material has been produced for this project. Therefore, nothing terrible happened. And it is not yet known whether the Americans will master it or not.

[Infinity]

Quote: Svetlana

The project is still only at the stage of discussion, nothing material has been produced for this project.

Nope, R&D has already been carried out on a number of modules, and the other day at one of Northrop Grumman's enterprises, they released the first part for the HALO module. NASA signed key contracts in 2019. And the Americans are not alone; Japan, Canada, and the EU are already participating in the project.

[Svetlana]

Read the original source, in this case Rogozin, for example in telegrams
...
How can you be excluded from some "lunar group" if we never entered it ?! Yes, NASA sent us some documents a couple of times, held a briefing (not a discussion, but a briefing). But we have already stated more than once that we are ready to take part in a project where all participants are equal. As an example, they cited the principles on which the ISS is based, "Rogozin wrote.
...
What you wrote is different

[Vadim237]

The Orion ship is in iron and has passed the tests and is waiting to fly. And the components of the station are created.

[AntiAleks]

Rogozinsky iconostasis did not fit

[Hog]

Well, now we will build our own, it remains only to fly to the moon a dozen times)

The first stage (2021–2025) - "Outing". Testing of all technologies on the ISS, creation of the base module of the circumlunar station, testing of the promising manned spacecraft "Federation", unmanned flyby of the Moon by the "Federation" and exploration of the Moon by automatic stations of the "Luna" series (Luna-25, 26, 27, 28) in order to solve scientific tasks, reconnaissance of the area and preparation of further steps.

PS: Give me a five-year plan in 20 years.

[slipped]

Hamsters do not know about this.

[Abdallah]

Quote: figvam

Russia will not participate in the creation of the lunar station Gateway

And what did Russia ask for? Yes, in such a project, we would only be allowed to invest money and stand on the sidelines, no thanks, we will not help our enemies.

all the money for the PALACE WAS NOT ANYTHING REMAINED FOR THE LUNAR PROGRAM, AND YES THE ENEMIES ARE GUILTY IN THE AQUODISCOTEK

[Vadim237]

What palace?

[1536]

It is very likely that the Americans are trying with all their might to slow down, and "ideally" destroy Russia's space programs. Either they are forced to produce outdated rocket engines, then "transition compartments" to build, and even according to their own standards. Replacement of production standards is a complete re-equipment of old or construction of new production facilities. On the one hand, it seems to be progress, but on the other hand, it dooms the industry to complete dependence on the owners of these standards, patents, equipment and production organization. Old, but working factories, therefore, will not be modernized, as they produce products of a different range.
As far as I understand, the notorious helium-2, which the Moon turned out to be rich in, is needed for thermonuclear fusion. Scientists in Russia came closest to solving this problem. But should you share your achievements with the Americans? Definitely not. Even if they do land on the moon, they are unlikely to be able to use helium-2 alone.
There is only one conclusion: to develop the space industry ourselves, not paying attention to "prestigious international projects" in this area. Today it is only a means of competition between corporations and the states they govern.

[Awaz]

Apparently, all the technologies for ensuring the long-term residence of people in space Rogozin & Co. have been leaked to the Americans and therefore the Americans no longer need the Soviet experience. NU and Rogozin and his company too ... Ours and on the ISS are mainly used as maintenance personnel ... Shame and only ...

[Maxwrx]

Equal resources (material, intellectual, technological) must be invested for equality. We cannot offer anything for such a project. Even in the short term, 15 years, we will not have a rocket, a ship, or a truck capable of reaching the station.
Russia, judging by its actions, will focus on separation from the ISS, add a couple of modules, will do space research with a minimum contribution to science (as well as the gateway), we cannot pull more with today's funding from Roscosmos.

We had to stay in the lunar station until the last moment, develop separate instruments, exchange experience, etc. Still, this is an international project of high complexity, and with due persistence, we could establish an international scientific exchange and gain new knowledge.

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

For equality, you need to invest equal resources (material, intellectual, technological)

ISS.

Quote: MaxWRX

We cannot offer anything for such a project.

Who are "we? And Roskosmos has long since suggested it.

Quote: MaxWRX

Even in the short term, for 15 years, we will not have a rocket,

Quote: MaxWRX

no ship

Quote: MaxWRX

no truck capable of reaching the station.

Quote: MaxWRX

Russia, judging by the actions, will focus on separation from the ISS, add a couple of modules, will do space research with a minimum contribution to science

The main thing is to blurt out about "separation" and "minimum contribution". And a couple of modules - just think ...

Quote: MaxWRX

We had to stay at the moon station until the last

You don't need it, but our station flies to the moon in the fall.

[Maxwrx]

1. What is the ISS for? That once in the 90s we were ahead of the rest of the world in space stations?
2. Roscosmos did not offer anything
3. The hangar is not suitable for the construction of a lunar station, nor for trucks, nor for delivering a crew to it. This is a replacement for a proton and, in the future, a union, no more
4. The eagle is not built and will fly at best in 5 years, its lunar modification is not even being developed
5. Progress will not be able to reach the lunar station
6. We have a space lander, not a space station on which people will work.

My advice is to read at least on Wikipedia the characteristics of rockets, ships, requirements for launching into lunar orbit, etc. Much will become clear

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

1. What is the ISS for? That once in the 90s we were ahead of the rest of the world in space stations?

Equal resources have been invested in the ISS.

Quote: MaxWRX

2. Roscosmos did not offer anything

Wrong. Roskosmos offered its own docking and storage airlock to service the domestic transport system. They do not want him, well - we do not impose ourselves. We will use it in our projects.

Quote: MaxWRX

3. The hangar is not suitable for the construction of a lunar station, nor for trucks, nor for delivering a crew to it.

Wrong. A5 brings ~ 4 kg to the Moon, A000M - half a ton more, A5B ~ 5 kg. TGK "Progress MS" in the cargo version weighs ~ 10 kg, the basic module of the domestic VOC, based on UM + NEM - 000 kg. Several launches of the "Angara" LV are quite enough.

Quote: MaxWRX

This is a replacement for a proton and, in the future, a union, no more

Replacement of Soyuz-2 - Amur-LNG.

Quote: MaxWRX

4. The eagle is not built and will fly at best in 5 years,

At the end of 2023.

Quote: MaxWRX

its lunar modification is not even being developed

He flies in a heavy lunar modification.

Quote: MaxWRX

5. Progress will not be able to reach the lunar station

It's strange to hear L1 with the help of Proton flew around the Moon.

Quote: MaxWRX

6. We have a space lander, not a space station on which people will work.

Where to start.

Quote: MaxWRX

My advice is to read at least on Wikipedia the characteristics of rockets, ships, requirements for launching into lunar orbit, etc. Much will become clear

Generation of the exam? Clear.

[Maxwrx]

1. What does the ISS and the new lunar station have to do with it?
2. A gateway, not a residential module, not scientific, not energy, just a gateway!
3. And the Eagle in the lunar version weighs 20 tons
4. Cupid will still be developing for 15 years (if not closed at all), now only sketches are being created
5. On February 13, 2020, in the materials of the device's developer - Rocket and Space Corporation Energia - information appeared that the Orel spacecraft will first go to the International Space Station (ISS) in manned mode in September 2025, but for sure will shift by 3-5 years
6. Where does it fly if the lunar modification is not even being developed. No draft design!
7. You do not take into account the weight of the satellite 361 kg and the weight of the manned spacecraft 20000 kg? They need different missiles
8. The scientific program in them is minimal, repeating the experience of the USSR
9. I didn’t have an exam, but that you don’t know how to look for elementary information is a fact. To compare a 361 kg apparatus with 20 kg is already called senile insanity.
You should put emoticons more often!

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

1. What does the ISS and the new lunar station have to do with it?

Given that there is now an equal partnership on the ISS. Why not have the same for the lunar station?

Quote: MaxWRX

2. A gateway, not a residential module, not scientific, not energy, just a gateway!

This "gateway" we offer is equipped with three docking stations. To which you can dock a residential, scientific or power module of domestic or foreign design, or transport ships.

Quote: MaxWRX

3. And the Eagle in the lunar version weighs 20 tons

About 22 tons for four crew members. This one flies to the A5 (P) in 2023.

Quote: MaxWRX

4. Cupid will still be developing for 15 years (if not closed at all), now only sketches are being created

Production of Amur-LNG will begin after the completion of tests of the Soyuz-5 launch vehicle. The RD-0169 engine is already being developed at KBKhA.

Quote: MaxWRX

5. On February 13, 2020, in the materials of the device's developer - Rocket and Space Corporation Energia - information appeared that the Orel spacecraft will first go to the International Space Station (ISS) in manned mode in September 2025, but for sure will shift by 3-5 years

As part of the LCI, the NP PTK has planned three flights - in 2023 (unmanned autonomous flight), 2024 (unmanned flight to the ISS) and 2025 (manned to the ISS).

Quote: MaxWRX

6. Where does it fly if the lunar modification is not even being developed. No draft design!

Do not carry a blizzard. The first bench product has already been assembled. The photo from the production above is half a year ago.

Quote: MaxWRX

7. You do not take into account the weight of the satellite 361 kg and the weight of the manned spacecraft 20000 kg? They need different missiles

The weight of the L1 spacecraft, which circled the moon, was 4 kg.

Quote: MaxWRX

8. The scientific program in them is minimal, repeating the experience of the USSR

No. The list of scientific experiments is published regularly on the Roscosmos website. Read on.

Quote: MaxWRX

9. I didn’t have the USE, but that you don’t know how to look for elementary information is a fact. Compare 361 kg apparatus with 20 kg .....

Well then, you are still studying and studying.

[Maxwrx]

Conversation with the wall, not a single argument was answered. You say specific dates and numbers, they send you fairy tales that are not confirmed by anything or are irrelevant

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

Conversation with the wall, not a single argument was answered. You say specific dates and numbers, they send you fairy tales that are not confirmed by anything or are irrelevant

Exactly I have specific dates and numbers and photos, but you have one verbiage.

[Maxwrx]

This is called playing with facts. 4400 kg - this is with the 3 stage of the Luna rocket (8K72, "Vostok-L") by equipping with the third stage (block "E") in order to deliver the spacecraft to the Moon. Block "E" made it possible for the first time in the world to reach the second space velocity, but it had significant drawbacks - its engine could not be started in zero gravity. Only 361 kg flew. The rest is the same pulling, wishful thinking. Or simply non-recognition of their mistakes, or just a wall. In general, one is not better than the other. I won't even answer.

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

This is called playing with facts. 4400 kg - this is with the 3 stage of the Luna rocket (8K72, "Vostok-L") by equipping with the third stage (block "E") in order to deliver the spacecraft to the Moon.

What are you doing? What is the third step? Here is a photo of the Proton-K launch vehicle with the L1 TPK before launching to the Moon:

Proton-M outputs more than Proton-K, and Angara-A5M outputs more than Proton-M. Further explain why "Progress" can go to the Moon?

Quote: MaxWRX

I won't even answer.

Now it's really not worth it.

[Maxwrx]

here is the third step
Do you understand what 2 space speed is? Do you know that a low orbit is not a lunar orbit and the weight of the lunar one is much less!
Angara a5m (which is only planned to be developed by the year 25) brings up to 6,5 tons into the orbit of the moon. The weight of Progress is 7150 kg and it is not intended for flights to the lunar orbit, it will not fly!
Apparently it's time for you to go to school tomorrow.

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

Do you know that a low orbit is not a lunar orbit and the weight of the lunar one is much less!

You can simply fall to the moon from the libration point.

Quote: MaxWRX

Angara a5m (which is only planned to be developed by the year 25)

In 2024, the first launch. Part of the in-flight elements will be tested at the end of 2023.

Quote: MaxWRX

puts up to 6,5 tons into the orbit of the moon. The weight of Progress is 7150 kg and it is not intended for flights to the lunar orbit, it will not fly!

So you don't even know what "Progress" is in its essence Well then, I'll show you a photo:

In general, nothing prevents you from replacing two of its compartments with one, lighter one.

By the way, this year "Progress" is flying to the ISS with a large 19-cubic nodal module "Prichal".

Quote: MaxWRX

Apparently it's time for you to go to school tomorrow.

Here is a big human thanks for this! I would love to return to my school, many different questions for teachers have accumulated in my life ...

[Maxwrx]

1.The Lagrange Point still needs to be flown, and it also requires a lot of energy, Angara-A5M will be able to throw even less on it - up to 5,1 tons
2. At the end of 2024, it will fly (information from 2019), but the engine is new, all the same, the rocket will not be able to put anything large into lunar orbit
3. Progress is not a modular ship, so that as if nothing had happened to remove / replace the compartment

besides, he also has to bring a couple of tons of cargo. Make a lunar ship weighing 4,5 tons ??

[slipped]

Quote: MaxWRX

1.The Lagrange Point still needs to be flown, and it also requires a lot of energy, Angara-A5M will be able to throw even less on it - up to 5,1 tons

To increase the potentially throwable weight, a contract was signed for the development of an oxygen-hydrogen upper stage of KBTK. The engine for this unit RD-0146 has already passed the entire cycle of its tests.

Quote: MaxWRX

2. At the end of 2024, it will fly (information from 2019), but the engine is new, all the same, the rocket will not be able to put anything large into lunar orbit

The engine is an upgraded RD-191. Has already passed the tests. The first space launch of a rocket with such engines will take place in 2023 from the Orel NPP.

Quote: MaxWRX

3. Progress is not a modular ship, so that as if nothing had happened to remove / replace the compartment

Have you seen the photo above? Or do you not believe your eyes? If necessary, they will replace it.

Quote: MaxWRX

besides, he also has to bring a couple of tons of cargo. Make a lunar ship weighing 4,5 tons ??

The weight of the Progress MS TPK for the flight to the ISS, already fueled and filled with all cargo, including the delivered fuel and water when weighed before rolling the GO is ~ 7 450 kg. The cargo delivered by Progress MS to the ISS is ~ 2450 kg.

[Jaromir]

The head of Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, has repeatedly announced the likely withdrawal of Russia from the program due to secondary roles.

And as a result, we did not come out, but we went out ...
It was necessary not to declare, but to act. And then you understand the trampoline ...

[slipped]

Quote: Jaromir

And as a result, we did not come out, but we went out ...

Duc we didn't even go in to "go out" We only offered the Americans our concept of our vision of the transport system, in which we thoroughly understand. If they don’t want to, they have a flag in their hands.

[Jaromir]

Quote: slipped

Duc we didn't even go in to "go out"

In 2017, Roscosmos and NASA entered into an agreement on joint work, but later the CEO of the Russian state corporation Dmitry Rogozin noted that Moscow could not afford to participate in the Gateway, since it was assigned an insufficiently large role, and he called the project itself American-centric.
Russia was entrusted with the manufacture of only one module of the station - a gateway for space walks. The United States was the main contributor to the project. Accordingly, the contribution took into account the country's role in the project. Rogozin announced his readiness to participate in the project if it is based on the principles of equality, like the International Space Station.
https://ria.ru/20210125/otstranenie-1594410088.html
That is, based on the agreement signed in 2017, Russia entered.

[slipped]

[quote = Jaromir]In 2017, Roscosmos and NASA entered into an agreement on joint work, but later the general director of the Russian state corporation Dmitry Rogozin noted that Moscow could not afford to participate in Gateway, since it was assigned an insufficiently large role, and he called the project American-centric. [/ Quote]

Actually, the design work for the station began much earlier. First with Lockheed, then with Boeing. But all this was at the stage of proposals from one agency to another. In order to somehow document this interaction, an agreement was concluded. After it became clear that the Americans did not want our full participation in their project, and they only see us as a subcontractor, Rogozin made his statements.

[quote = Jaromir]Russia was entrusted with the manufacture of only one module of the station - a gateway for space walks. [/ Quote]

The gateway was developed on the basis of the docking and storage compartment for the Russian orbital station and has, in addition to large exit hatches, docking nodes for expanding the station.

[quote = Jaromir]The United States was the main contributor to the project. Accordingly, the contribution took into account the country's role in the project. Rogozin announced his readiness to participate in the project if it is based on the principles of equality, like the International Space Station.[/ Quote]

Because it was planned to connect the Russian segment to our station element in the future as part of the second stage.

[quote = Jaromir]That is, based on the agreement signed in 2017, Russia entered.[/ Quote]

In addition to proposals for the module and NASA briefings on the subject, there was nothing there. And in 2018, our proposals were finally formed. And now it's up to NASA to accept them or not.

[Jaromir]

Thank you for the clarification
Sometimes they write in the news that you can't figure it out without outside help.

[slipped]

Quote: Jaromir

Thank you for the clarification
Sometimes they write in the news that you can't figure it out without outside help.

I can add such a picture from RKK according to Russian plans to an international VOC for visualization

that's what America refuses.

[Disant]

that's what America refuses.

of course they will refuse such a picture - the Russian module sits on the / gas / pipe in the center of the diagram !!!! If they want it, they will screw on the electric valve! They will want to, unscrew!
.
and on the gateway module, as for me (if the Americans have enough willpower and money to continue their lunar program), this is a real bargaining - the Americans will either twist our arms or make an offer that Rogozin cannot refuse - a spare Russian rescue ship that can in which case they need to dock to the lunar tub, they desperately need

[DPN]

There is only one conclusion, it means that we cannot provide anything new or breakthrough, and the old cart is no longer needed from the horse.
When we were self-sufficient, they themselves asked, and after the flight "BURAN", YOU heard something good about the Russian SPACE. ???

[slipped]

Quote: DPN

There is only one conclusion, it means that we cannot provide anything new or breakthrough, and the old cart is no longer needed from the horse.

Invalid output. We do not want to use the American station in a lunar orbit that is disadvantageous to us. That is why we offer a docking station for our transport system.

Quote: DPN

When we were self-sufficient, they asked for it themselves, and after the flight of "BURAN"

Wrong. Their space station "Fried" was not tied up in any way, and it was our specialists from Glavkosmos who proposed to unite their station and our station "Mir-2". The result was the ISS.

Quote: DPN

YOU have heard something about the Russian SPACE good. ???

Lots of. Both good and interesting.

[tovarich-andrey.62goncharov]

No, gentlemen, comrades. As they say - "On Senka and a hat." Those. with your finances, the current situation in the space industry, Rogozin with trampolines, with your "economy" - your place ... well, stand there, at the door, ie. in the gateway. somehow I understand. And they are right.

[slipped]

Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov

And they are right.

No, but neither are you. What is called a "gateway" here is a docking module for the Oryol spacecraft and Russian logistics and landing modules with two additional exit hatches. There is a render above. An additional transport system is still offered to them as a rescue system.

[Rufat]

That's right, why do we need a project where you can't rollback

[Prisoner]

We decided to make it before ours left. It is gratifying that ours have ceased to be content with secondary roles in this "celebration of life." "They themselves wanted to reign and own everything."

[Berg berg]

The United States did not exclude anyone, and it could not do this, since Russia independently renounced unequal conditions! The conditions of Russia are US money and will be considered a wallet, and the full owners are Russia!

[Usher]

Already sharing space.