Military Review

Bosnia and Herzegovina in the XX and XXI centuries

58

Sarajevo, skeleton tank T-54, April 1, 1996


Article Ottoman period in the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina we ended with a report on the collapse of four great empires - Russian, German, Austrian and Ottoman. In this one we will continue the story about stories Bosnia and Herzegovina from December 1918 to the present day.

Bosnia and Herzegovina in the first half of the XNUMXth century


After the end of World War I, Bosnia and Herzegovina became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, which in 1929 became known as Yugoslavia. This is surprising to many, but even then, in the territory of BiH, Sharia courts operated, which were abolished only in 1946 (and the wearing of the burqa by women was prohibited only in 1950).

In 1941, Yugoslavia was occupied by the troops of Germany, Italy and Hungary, and Bosnia and Herzegovina became part of the puppet state of Croatia. Serbs, Jews and Roma were also massacred on the territory of BiH. Some Bosnian Muslims then entered the service in the 13th SS Division "Khanjar" (this is the name of the cold weapons type of a dagger), which until 1944 fought against the partisans, and then was defeated by Soviet troops in Hungary.


Prayer of Muslim soldiers of the SS "Khanjar" division, 1943

Its remnants retreated to the territory of Austria, where they surrendered to the British.

In turn, the Serbian partisans (Chetniks) brutally massacred the inhabitants of the captured Muslim villages, destroying, according to some sources, over 80 thousand people.

On April 6, 1945, partisans of Tito's army entered Sarajevo; by May 1 of the same year, there were no German troops left in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the Ustasha units resisted until May 25.

This is how Bosnia and Herzegovina became part of Yugoslavia again.

Bosnia and Herzegovina as part of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia


In the Yugoslav Socialist Federation, Bosnia and Herzegovina received the rights of a separate republic - one of the six that was part of this state, the third in terms of area (after Serbia and Croatia). In Yugoslavia, it was one of the "underdeveloped" regions (along with Montenegro, Macedonia and Kosovo) and therefore received about twice as much from the federal budget as it gave in the form of taxes. This, by the way, caused discontent in the "rich" Slovenia and Croatia and was one of the reasons for the desire of these republics to secede from Yugoslavia. As a result, the volume of industrial production in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1945 to 1983. grew 22 times. This republic also received huge investments in infrastructure during the preparation for the 1984 Winter Olympic Games (in Sarajevo).


Olympic stadium in Sarajevo, 1984


Olympic stadium in Sarajevo, 1995

Until 1966, Bosnia and Herzegovina was ruled mainly by Serbian officials, who set a course for a tough suppression of separatist sentiments. But then Josip Broz Tito decided to rely on local Muslim communists, to whom he gave a strange gift. It will probably be difficult for you to imagine that in Belarus (for example) Catholics will be declared a separate nation. But this is exactly what happened in Yugoslavia in 1971, when, on Tito's initiative, the status of a nation was assigned to the inhabitants of this region who professed Islam: this is how a truly unique people - “Muslims” - appeared here. In 1974, this status was assigned to them in the country's new constitution. Outside the borders of the former Yugoslavia, they still prefer to call them "Bosniaks" or "Bosniaks".


Ethnic composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1895


Ethnic composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2013

In 1991, 43,7% of Bosniac Muslims lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 31,4% of predominantly Orthodox Serbs (while they constituted the majority in more than half of the territory of BiH - 53,7%) and 17,3% of Catholic Croats. About 12,5% ​​of the population of this region at the time of the last census called themselves Yugoslavs (they were mainly children from mixed marriages).

Beginning of the End


In November 1990, elections were held in Bosnia and Herzegovina on a multi-party basis, the results of which finally split the republic. The Muslim Democratic Action Party now openly opposed the Serbian Democratic Party.

On October 12, 1991, the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina proclaimed the independence of the republic. The Assembly of the Serbian people of BiH in response on November 9 proclaimed the Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina (as part of the SFRY). Early next year (January 9), the Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina was declared a federal unit of Yugoslavia, and its constitution was adopted on March 27. Serbs proposed to make Bosnia and Herzegovina a confederal republic.

But on March 1, 1992, the official authorities of BiH held a referendum on independence, in which only 63,4% of voters took part: 62,68% voted for leaving Yugoslavia. The degree of interethnic tension was rapidly growing, and in March 1992, the Bosnian Muslims began a "sniper war" against the Yugoslav army, as well as against peaceful Serbs. The Serbs "answered". As a result, the capital's street Dragon (or Snake) later received the name of the journalists "Alley of snipers." 220 people were killed here, including 60 children.


Dragon Street, Sarajevo, the Momo and Uzeyir towers are on fire, June 8, 1992

Bosnia and Herzegovina in the XX and XXI centuries
Sarajevo, Dragon Street ("Sniper Alley"), June 11, 1992


Norwegian soldiers on Dragon Street, November 1995

Bosnian War


On March 23, 1992, the first open attack on a military unit took place, and in April detachments of armed Muslims began to seize administrative buildings and police stations. These events went down in history as the "Muslim putsch".

Units of the Yugoslav army were blocked by Muslims in their barracks and did not take part in hostilities: the Serbian Volunteer Guards and volunteer detachments tried to fight back.

On April 11, the political parties of BiH signed a declaration on a unified Sarajevo, on April 13 - a ceasefire agreement, which never came into force. And already on April 30, the Yugoslav People's Army was recognized as "occupation" by the Bosnians.

On May 2-3, new attacks were organized on the JNA barracks. The clashes lasted 44 days and claimed the lives of 1320 people. About 350 thousand people were forced to leave their homes.

As a result, after the collapse of Yugoslavia, the Republika Srpska (President - Radovan Karadzic), the Croatian Republic of Herceg Bosna and the Muslim Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina appeared on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.


Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the map

And the war of all against all began, which received the name Bosnian. The battles were fought by the "Serbian Republic Army" (commander - Ratko Mladic), the Muslim "Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina", units of the "People's Defense of Western Bosnia" (Muslim autonomists) and units of the "Croatian Defense Council". And then the army of independent Croatia also intervened in this conflict.


Sarajevo, 9 June 1992

At first, Croats fought against Muslims, and then, starting in 1994, Muslims and Croats - against Serbs.


Bosnian with a gun, November 19, 1992, Sarajevo

From April 5, 1990 to February 29, 1996, the siege by the Serbs of the city of Sarajevo continued. Volunteers from the republics of the former USSR, united in the so-called "Russian volunteer detachments", fought on the side of the Serbs then.


Sarajevo, 16 February 1994

The complete blockade did not work, because the Boshniks dug a 760-meter-long tunnel through which electrical and communication lines, an oil pipeline, and rails were laid.

One of the most tragic episodes of this confrontation was the hit of a shell on the main market square of Sarajevo on February 5, 1994: 68 people were killed, 200 were injured.

On February 28, 1994, over the city of Banja Luka, American F-16 fighters attacked 6 old Bosnian Serb attack aircraft (J-21 "Hawk"), which had neither anti-aircraft weapons, nor a chance to repel this attack: according to American data, 4 attack aircraft were shot down, Serbs reported the loss of 5 aircraft.


Fighter F-16 Fighting Falcon ("Attacking Falcon")


Attack aircraft J-21 "Hawk"

Another landmark site of the Bosnian War was the small mining town of Srebrenica, from which the Serbs were expelled by Muslims led by Nasser Oric (formerly one of Slobodan Milosevic's bodyguards) in May 1992. In the spring of 1993, the Serbs surrounded this enclave; the declaration of Srebrenica as a "security zone" and the introduction of peacekeepers from Holland saved the Muslims from complete defeat. The Serbs constantly accused the Muslims of Oric for raids from Srebrenica and tried to exchange this city for one of the Serbian suburbs of the capital. Finally, their patience ran out, and on July 11, 1995, Srebrenica was captured. According to the Serbian version, about 5800 fighters of the 28th Boshniak division then went on a breakthrough, having lost about 2 thousand people. More than 400 Muslim soldiers were then captured and shot. According to the Bosnak version, supported by the West, the soldiers of Ratko Mladic killed from 7 to 8 thousand Muslims. These events were called the “massacre of Muslims in Srebrenica”.

On August 28, 1995, another shell fell on the Markala market in Sarajevo: this time 43 people were killed and 81 were injured. UN experts could not determine the place from where the shot was fired, but the NATO leadership blamed the Serbs.

After the second explosion in the market and the "massacre in Srebrenica" NATO troops joined the fighting against the Republika Srpska. In August-September, the alliance's military aircraft began bombing the positions of the Bosnian Serbs. It was Operation Deliberate Force, NATO's first large-scale military operation in post-war Europe. The leadership of the alliance now calls this operation "one of the most successful peacekeeping measures." During its holding, the "peacekeepers" destroyed completely or partially about 3 thousand settlements, 80% of the country's industrial enterprises, 2000 kilometers of roads, 70 bridges and almost the entire railway network. It is scary to even think about what will happen to the territory on which NATO will conduct an "unsuccessful operation".

After that, on the basis of the so-called Dayton Agreement (negotiations took place from November 1 to 21, 1995 at the American military base in Dayton, Ohio), peacekeeping forces were brought into Bosnia and Herzegovina. The state was divided into the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (51% of the country's territory), the Serbian Republic (49%, the capital is the city of Banja Luka) and a small Brcko district with an obscure status, which is governed by a person appointed by the High Representative of the countries of the Daytona Agreement. This district turned out to be necessary in order, on the one hand, to connect the two regions of Serbian Krajina, and on the other, to give BiH access to Croatia:


District Brcko on the map of Bosnia and Herzegovina - highlighted in green

And the Croatian Republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina was not recognized.

Currently, this country is governed by a presidium, which includes a Croat, Bosnjak and Serb.

Bosnia and Herzegovina after the Dayton Accords


As a result, the victims of the Bosnian war were (according to various estimates) from 100 to 200 thousand people, most of whom were civilians. Over 2 million people were forced to leave their homes. Elena Guskova, a Russian Balkan historian, gives the following figures:

During the war years, 100 thousand people died, of which 90% were civilians. From 2,5 to 3 million people left their homes: 800 thousand Serbs from Western Herzegovina, Central and Western Bosnia, 800 thousand Muslims from Eastern Herzegovina, Krajina and Eastern Bosnia, about 500 thousand Croats from Central Bosnia.

The economy of Bosnia and Herzegovina never fully recovered after this war, the level of production is about 50% of the pre-war level. According to official data, in 2014, 43,7% of able-bodied citizens were unemployed (but, since the “shadow economy” is very strong in BiH, actual unemployment that year, according to the World Bank, was 27,5%).

And now let's go back a little and look at the state of Turkey, the former Metropolis of the Balkan countries, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.

Ottoman Empire on the eve of World War I



The territory of the Ottoman Empire before the start of World War I

Having suffered defeat in the I Balkan War (1912-1913, the opponents of the Ottomans - Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Montenegro), this country lost almost all European territories, retaining only Constantinople and its surroundings. In the II Balkan War (June-July 1913 on the side of Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and Romania against Bulgaria), the Ottomans managed to return part of Eastern Thrace with the city of Edirne (Adrianople). Turkey also retained significant territories in Asia - the lands of such modern states as Iraq, Yemen, Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Syria and partly Saudi Arabia. Turkey formally also belonged to Kuwait, which by that time was actually a British protectorate.

Take another look at the map of the Ottoman Empire in 1914, see what territories it has already lost, and how much the territory of this country has decreased:


The entry into the First World War became fatal for the aging and losing empire.

The following articles will tell about the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the shameful Mudross truce and the humiliating Sevres peace treaty, the wars of the Turks with Armenia and Greece and the formation of the Turkish Republic.
Author:
58 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 29 January 2021 08: 27
    0
    And the war of all against all began

    I disagree: the Serbs fought with the West, personified in Boshniks and Croats.
    1. VLR
      29 January 2021 09: 32
      +9
      Well, why: Croats and Muslims also fought among themselves. Later they united and, with the support of NATO, began to fight the Serbs.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 29 January 2021 10: 44
        +3
        Quote: VlR
        Well, why: Croats and Muslims also fought among themselves

        But they all fought with the Serbs, as was said.
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 29 January 2021 08: 48
    +8
    What a sad photo of a stadium in Sarajevo. I remember that Olympiad. I watched with interest on TV.
    And yet, we lived then in a private house and jokingly began to call the barn "Sarajevo".
    Then I saw a traveler on TV, who was pointing out the signs "watch out for mines" right next to the remains of the bobsleigh track.
    It is sad.
    1. VLR
      29 January 2021 09: 35
      +10
      Yes, "Sarajevo" is a "meme" of that time. Sheds - "Sarajevo", summer cottages - "hacienda"
      smile .
      1. Crowe
        Crowe 29 January 2021 10: 41
        +12
        Thank you for the cycle of interesting articles, Valeriy. I hope that
        The following articles will tell about the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the shameful Mudross truce and the humiliating Sevres peace treaty, the wars of the Turks with Armenia and Greece and the formation of the Turkish Republic.

        everything will also be described in detail and fascinatingly. Or rather, I do not even doubt it! And then the fashion has gone, panimash, - many articles readers in the comments "add" themselves))
        PS I don’t remember to call the sheds "saraevo", but the dachas "hacienda", yes, it was after "Slave Izaura"!
    2. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 29 January 2021 11: 14
      +6
      Leader, I remember the Olympics in Sarajevo as one of the last visions of a fairy tale. My mom was still alive, there was also the SOVIET UNION and I was proud that I live in the USSR
  3. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 29 January 2021 09: 51
    +8
    Even during WWII, a massacre began there - the Chetnik monarchists against Tito's partisans and Muslim Bosnians. Tito, oddly enough, was supported by the British (Mao - Americans, Chiang Kai-shek - USSR laughing), According to British historians (in particular, Beaver), the Yugoslavs killed more of their own than the Germans during the war. SS-members from the Hajar division after May 1945 fled wherever they looked, some of them ended up in mandated Palestine - in Haifa (they were evacuated to Lebanon and Syria after the victory of Jewish armed formations in 1947), in Caesarea (they surrendered to the Jews without battle, were forced to leave in the vicinity of Jerusalem, under the wing of the supporters of the founder of the division, the Mufti of Jerusalem), and in Ramallah. In the villages surrounding the city, descendants of SS-ts with aoabized surnames still live. The most famous is Tamimi. It's a pity, I didn't know about it urgently sad
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 29 January 2021 10: 21
      +13
      In fact, the British initially bet on the Chetniks, from April 1942 until the end of the war, the British aviation regularly supplied the Chetniks with weapons, ammunition, medicines, money. On Tito, later, the British "switched", after at different times until the fall of 1943 several British and American military missions visited the areas of Yugoslavia liberated by the partisans and came to one conclusion: it is Tito's fighters who are the only real military and political force in Yugoslavia, they control many of the country's military-strategic regions and their influence is steadily growing due to the fact that they "fought staunchly with a common enemy from the very beginning, while other groups within Yugoslavia did not do it. "Churchill then told the Tehran conference participants:" ... we are preparing for raids in Yugoslavia and for organizing supply assistance to partisans who fight the Germans better than Chetniks Mikhailovich. "The name of the leader of the Yugoslav partisans, Josip Broz Tito, was mentioned by the leaders of the three allied powers and at the conference only in a positive sense. There was not a single positive assessment of the Serbian Chetniks and their leader D. Mikhailovich. However, the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of England insisted that military assistance should be provided simultaneously to the partisans and the Chetniks. This is all the British - don't put your eggs in one basket - an English proverb about how to reduce risks by investing in various assets: Don't put all your eggs in one basket
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 29 January 2021 10: 40
        +10
        Quite right - only to provide assistance to ZAO and TITO, the British began from 1942, then switched mainly to it, not forgetting the Chetniks. ))
        It's Beaver and Hastings hi
  4. akinak-f
    akinak-f 29 January 2021 10: 17
    +14
    Srebrenica is a very nasty story. Protected by the Dutch, the Muslims carried out raids on Serbian territory, committing violence and murder, and then returned back under Dutch protection. On the demands of the Serbs to stop the raids or to hand over the raiders, the Dutch refused. Every now and again. But one day, Muslim saboteurs captured two Serbian boys who were fishing, raped them and killed them. A message was left on the desecrated corpses, they say, this will happen with all Serbs. And - again hid behind the Dutch. The enraged Serbs demanded the extradition of the rapists and murderers. The Dutch again refused, the Muslims continued to mock. Then the Serbs removed several brigades from the front, swept away the Dutch screens and occupied Srebrenica. There was no time (I suspect - and desire) to search for the killers, the sexually mature Muslims of Srebrenica were massacred. So the Serbs washed off the insult with blood.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 29 January 2021 17: 07
      +2
      "Serbs washed off the insult with blood" here 100% of the Dutch are guilty: if they were interested in ending the violence, which is easier: to prohibit such a thing. If, for example, there are 1 Muslims for every 100 Dutchman and they are unable to control the situation, do not bother the Serbs. And this is how the policy of double standards turns out: Muslim militants are good, and Serbs are bad.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 29 January 2021 20: 51
        +2
        This is an interethnic slaughter, there are all the "Viscount de Bragelones". On the other hand, Serbs would hardly rape children.
  5. akinak-f
    akinak-f 29 January 2021 11: 04
    +11
    The author, unfortunately, did not write anything about the siege of Goraja, or the tragedy of Serbian Sarajevo, or the fact that Russian experts determined that the shelling of a market in Sarajevo, in which the Serbs were accused, and which resulted in the NATO bombing, was a Muslim provocation.
    It was a terrible war ...
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 29 January 2021 13: 46
      +2
      "It was a terrible war," and what kind of war can be fun. Except the pillow fight
  6. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 29 January 2021 11: 06
    +6
    Valery, thank you very much for your cycle. I've been your fan for a long time and decided to summarize.
    I immediately started reading for fun, then I found out that I know little about history and your works were just right. Now it turned out that they make you think, and some people don't like that. Tolley case under "Samsonov" to throw out emotions.
  7. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 11: 50
    +2
    I looked at the ethnic map of Bosnia, before that Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and other Balkan countries, mentally united them ...
    Then he looked at the ethnic map of Russia.

    And after the horrors that Valery describes here, I felt so sad ...
    Here I sit and think: maybe we shouldn't be so gentle with our Nazis here? Maybe it's time to identify them now, take and shoot nafig, out of harm's way.
    In the USSR, there was one unique article in the criminal code of the RSFSR with an absolutely definite sanction. That is, there was only one punishment in it - clearly defined. Not as in most articles - "from three to five years with or without confiscation", but clearly and unambiguously. This article had a number, if I am not mistaken, 190.1 and was called "Encroachment on the life of a police officer." During the years of perestroika, it was canceled, but I'm not sure what they did right. The article is short, but very indicative, in my opinion. I can't vouch for the literalness of the quote, but something close to the text:
    Any encroachment on the life of a police officer in connection with the performance of his official duties for the maintenance of public order is punishable by death.

    This is how it is simple and tasteful. smile
    I would now introduce such an article in relation to our newly-minted Nazis.
    It will not be so easy to formulate the disposition of the article there, of course, but one can think about it. The main thing is that the content of the article for the presence of corpus delicti does not provide for any appeals or something like that, but be simple and understandable. For example like this:
    The spread of ideas of radical nationalism on the territory of the Russian Federation is punishable by death.

    And no suspended sentences. There is an article - no need to think about the verdict.
    Well, then let the Supreme Court explain what "spreading" is and define the concept of "radical nationalism".
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 29 January 2021 13: 03
      0
      I agree - in such a multinational and multi-confessional country like the Russian Federation, such a law is necessary (instead of the death penalty, life can be imposed, with a term of 25, say, years, in the case of voluntary work in hazardous industries such as various mines).
      Greetings, Michael! hi
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 14: 24
        +1
        Quote: Krasnodar
        instead of the death penalty, life can be

        This liberalism is not necessary. stop Everything should be tough and unambiguous, without options, in order to exclude any illusions about this. So that even the right of pardon does not apply to this article. Specifically specify this in the law. And then our presidents are all merciful, just some kind of "motherfuckers". So that there was no such thing. smile
        And yes, greetings, Albert. smile
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 29 January 2021 20: 54
          0
          I do not agree - after 25 years, deportation from the country. If someone lasts more than 10 years at such mines ..
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 29 January 2021 15: 46
        +2
        What kind of "generous" Alik: voluntary work in hazardous production ", I doubt that they would like to work there.
        Such a loved one is adored more than nationality or religion
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 18: 31
          0
          A purely pragmatic approach, Slava. smile Everything should be beneficial. It may be so, of course, but sometimes it's better to play it safe ...
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 29 January 2021 20: 54
          -1
          Quote: vladcub
          What kind of "generous" Alik: voluntary work in hazardous production ", I doubt that they would like to work there.
          Such a loved one is adored more than nationality or religion

          Vlad, lifelong or an illusory opportunity to get out of prison - what do you think people will choose?
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 29 January 2021 13: 13
      +5
      Mikhail, you are fighting a phantom.

      Nazism in any organized form was suppressed in Russia in the early 2000s. Even then, rumors circulated in subcultures about the connection of the same digital specialists with the FSB. They were partially confirmed later.

      All existing excesses can be divided into 2 categories:
      Autonomous-criminal type Schultz -88 - isolated groups and individuals
      Supervised by the FSB of the BORN type in order to frighten the inhabitants with the threat of the terrible Nazis and discredit any possible nationalist movement with a simple comparison.

      Any nationalist discourse is suppressed along with Nazism.

      There is no threat of Nazism in the form of Russian ns-vp in Russia.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 14: 17
        -1
        Quote: Engineer
        You are fighting a phantom.

        Well, I’m the type of person who’s better at keeping up. smile
        It was at the beginning, or rather, in the first half of the 2000s, that I had a chance to communicate with the carriers of this ideology and, I can tell you, the impression from this communication I have remained quite unambiguous. Apparently, he still has not let him go and now he is unlikely to let him go. No.
        In general, "Carthage must be destroyed." smile
        And then, Russian Nazism, although in my opinion, it is the most dangerous, but unfortunately, not the only one. The rest must be fought hard and consistently as well. They are worried about the Caucasus, Tatarstan, for example. Although, of course, I am more interested in this respect by the representatives of my people, this is natural.
        Quote: Engineer
        There is no threat of Nazism in the form of Russian ns-vp in Russia.

        Well, if so. Now, therefore, it is necessary to do so that it will not happen in the future. smile
        And if such an article, as I suggested, appears, and several sentences are passed on it, it will not be very comfortable to use the language on this topic and publish the relevant materials on the network, too.
        A post of appropriate content has appeared - a criminal case is being initiated on the grounds of a crime under the relevant article ... With such high stakes, many will think about it before writing and publishing something of questionable content ... That's good. smile
        And those who will write and publish all the same - I do not mind those, honestly.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 29 January 2021 14: 23
          +1
          Already outdated)

          And the language in the Internet is not comfortable to wag for a long time.

          And considering that there would be an article, and there are cases and people, it is better that there are no grave articles for extremism "for pictures" at all. And then schoolchildren-students will receive full terms for reposts and pictures.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 15: 14
            -2
            Quote: Engineer
            Already outdated)

            It's just great that you think so, honestly. smile Now, if you said: "Something you watch badly, my dear - look what is happening around" - here I would be upset, my hands would drop and in sadness I would go into a binge, they say, since I am useless, then continue without me handle it yourself, etc. Well, since my efforts are bearing fruit, since you feel safe, you need to increase your vigilance, since you are no longer ready to defend yourself - you relaxed, lost your tone. laughing
            In general, seriously, I am a supporter of the point of view that the maximum possible minimum of prohibitions with strict control and maximum severity of punishment for their violation is the most effective mechanism for regulating public relations. The law should be simple and clear, and at the same time relentless and harsh.
            Quote: Engineer
            schoolchildren-students will receive full terms for reposts and pictures.

            Try to look at it from the other side. Imagine a situation where the law on the strict death penalty for radical nationalism will still be issued anyway, and you can only influence the formulation in which it will be adopted. This is how you will formulate it - this is how it will be applied. Sorry for you schoolchildren with students - we will put an age limit, for example. smile
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 29 January 2021 15: 25
              +1
              The law must be simple and clear, and at the same time relentless and harsh

              The cruelty of the law is justified only in the case of a mature and competent law enforcement, which we have no trace of.
              Imagine a situation where the law on the strict death penalty for radical nationalism will still be issued anyway, and you can only influence the formulation in which it will be adopted.

              I'd rather look at the matter from the side from which it is constructive and reasonable laughing
              And it would be constructive and reasonable to recognize that society and a particular individual must be protected not only from radical extremists, but also from respectable inhabitants. Respectable inhabitants do not build gallows, but they gladly applaud executions.
              A respectable man in the street, having learned about the death of the conditional Martsinkevich, competently says: "There and the road." As one remarkable writer put it "with the delight of virtue that exposed vice."
              A respectable man in the street does not want to think that those who killed him are many times worse and a hundred times more dangerous for society.
              Respectable inhabitants legitimize lawlessness and arbitrariness "from above" with their approval, and therefore the law and legality should be immune to their opinion wink
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 19: 18
                +1
                The number of pluses and minuses under our comments shows that with the nationalists, we are not as clear-cut as you think. smile
                Here, after all, a lot depends on other, purely economic circumstances, for example. The standard of living falls - the level of nationalism rises. The dependence is iron. So I have very bad forebodings for the near future in this regard.
                As for the townsfolk, I was talking about something else. The minimum of prohibitions means that everything that can be allowed is allowed. An ultra-liberal set of freedoms, if you like. Strict control over the observance of the remaining laws and strict and merciless punishment for their violation is a must.
                No matter how hypocritical our lawmakers may be, but in fact the only goal of criminal punishment, which is now really achieved in our country, is not correction, as is declared, but punishment for what we have done. No one in the zones is corrected, everything happens exactly the opposite. Damage compensation doesn't work either. If our penitentiary system is de facto punitive and not corrective, then we must recognize this and form the basis of sanctions as, first of all, punitive.
                As for the philistine consciousness itself, I will not even argue here. In general, our level of legal awareness is very low. That is why the law must be simple and understandable. It is useless to teach a first grader higher mathematics, just as it is useless for our existing society to instill a high legal culture in all the diversity of its manifestations. Let's learn the multiplication table first.
                The fate of Martsinkevich worries me a little. That is, it doesn't bother at all. I didn't even remember right away who he was. But one thing I know for sure - there would be no talk of him now if he was sentenced to death and executed.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 29 January 2021 19: 28
                  0
                  with nationalists, not everything is as simple as you think.

                  I'm about the Nazis писал
                  remind the thesis
                  No threat nazism in the form of Russian ns-vp in Russia is not.


                  Russian nationalism in modern Russia is a separate tragicomic story.

                  If our penitentiary system is de facto punitive and not corrective, then we must recognize this and form the basis of sanctions as, first of all, punitive.

                  She is not so much punitive as criminal. Systemically criminal. But this does not bother almost anyone until the person encounters it.
                  If she were just punitive, there would be much fewer questions.

                  But one thing I know for sure - there would be no talk about him now if he was sentenced to death and executed.

                  It is precisely stopping the bloodthirstiness of the man in the street that I consider one of the main tasks.

                  That is, it doesn't care at all

                  And it worries me. Because a piece of a big puzzle. Disgusting puzzle
                  1. aleksejkabanets
                    aleksejkabanets 29 January 2021 21: 00
                    +1
                    Forgive me for interfering in your conversation, but I could not keep silent))))
                    Quote: Engineer
                    I wrote about the Nazis
                    remind the thesis
                    There is no threat of Nazism in the form of Russian ns-vp in Russia.


                    The threat of nationalism is not so great today as the threat of fascism according to Musolini's patterns.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    She is not so much punitive as criminal. Systemically criminal. But this does not bother almost anyone until the person encounters it.

                    I know this system firsthand (I knew it 20 years ago), it is ugly and really criminal. I could tell a lot about her, but she is exactly the same abscess as all our state system. One cannot exist without the other.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    It is precisely stopping the bloodthirstiness of the man in the street that I consider one of the main tasks.

                    This is a huge task, does it have a solution at all? It is necessary, of course, to work in this direction, but a systematic approach is important here and one cannot do without the state, but does our state need this today?
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 29 January 2021 21: 21
                      0
                      Forgive me for interfering in your conversation, but I could not keep silent))))

                      The discass is open, and I only ignore the very stubborn ones. Mikhail doesn't ignore anyone at all. Even Baru will find something to say)

                      The threat of nationalism is not so great today as the threat of fascism according to Musolini's patterns.

                      Before talking about the threat of nationalism and generally stigmatizing it, it would be nice to understand briefly its features and types, to stop putting the sign "identically equal" between nationalism and extremism.

                      We already fascism. Light, of course. Neo-fascism, new-age fascism, whatever. Moreover, fascism as a whole is much softer than National Socialism according to Adolf, even in the classic version of Mussolini.
                      And of course, our fascism was created according to more modern templates.

                      What we have from fascism. Anti-Liberalism, Revanchism, Leadership. Statism and corporatism.

                      What is modified
                      Instead of the nationalism of the titular nation, a unifying ideology for the entire population. However, the system cannot be denied flexibility and it builds a dialogue with different peoples at different levels)
                      Anti-communism, it is not in an explicit form. A universalist concept as in the national question as a whole.

                      This is a huge task, does it have a solution at all?

                      No. Doesn't have. This is an indicator of the immaturity of our society. And an indicator of the impossibility of any transformation.
                      But does our state need this today?

                      Change is a two-way process. Neither the state nor the "respectable man in the street" need this.
                      1. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 29 January 2021 22: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        We already have fascism. Light, of course.

                        I agree with you, so far there are only enough blackshirts. Almost all other signs of fascism are already there.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What we have from fascism. Anti-Liberalism, Revanchism, Leadership. Statism and corporatism.

                        It is also worth paying attention to the merger of financial and commercial and industrial capital, "Sberbank" is a vivid example. I wonder if there is such a phenomenon in developed Western countries? Corporatism, I can never imagine myself in "voluptuous unity" with some kind of Deripaska or Abramovich. Apparently Remarque re-read in childhood))))))

                        Quote: Engineer
                        No. Doesn't have. This is an indicator of the immaturity of our society. And an indicator of the impossibility of any transformation.

                        Yes, our society is really immature, but here is the time, this is the best medicine. I hope that Navalny and his comrades will not have time, the social achievements of the USSR are too fresh in the memory, and he has completely different ideas.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 29 January 2021 23: 13
                        0
                        until only blackshirts are missing

                        Not needed. They just don't need it.
                        Cheno-shirts are needed if we come to power from the bottom up. This was not the case in modern Russia.
                        Corporatism, I can never imagine myself in "voluptuous unity" with some kind of Deripaska or Abramovich

                        You are not needed for unity either. It is unity for officials and senior civil servants.
                        What is common between Rogozin and Martsinkevich? And he and the other loved to throw a ridge.
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI0eEH_ZuHE
                        Why is Rogozin in the government, and Martsinkevich on a bunk and in a coffin? It's just Rogozin's dad, a general. This is how corporatism works.
                        Yes, our society is really immature, but here is the time, this is the best medicine. I hope that Navalny and his comrades will not have time, the social achievements of the USSR are too fresh in the memory

                        The appeal to the memory of the USSR as a society of social conquest is also an indicator of immaturity.
                        People turn to the image of the USSR without realizing that new challenges require different answers and concepts. Let's rewind, cleanse the teachings of Lenin-Stalin from the later heresies and everything will work out for us.
                        No, gentlemen, it won't work. You cannot enter the same river twice.
                      3. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 30 January 2021 10: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The appeal to the memory of the USSR as a society of social conquest is also an indicator of immaturity.

                        Here I disagree with you, but most likely we understand the concept of "maturity of society" in different ways. For me, this is not only an attitude to corruption, to the equality of all before the law, but also "People have always been and will always be stupid victims of deception and self-deception in politics until they learn to look for any moral, religious, political, social phrases, statements, promises interests of certain classes "V.I. Lenin. Agree with me that it is impossible to build a just welfare state without taking into account the issues of ownership of the means of production.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        People turn to the image of the USSR without realizing that new challenges require different answers and concepts.

                        What do “different answers and concepts” mean? After all, the class society has not gone anywhere, although yes, indeed, a lot has changed and you are absolutely right
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You cannot enter the same river twice.

                        But at the same time, I, for example, do not see a more just theory than communism.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You are not needed for unity either. It is unity for officials and senior civil servants.

                        Here, I will probably disagree. Have you read Surkov's article "Putin's Long State"? There, "dissent" is strongly discouraged. There are no opponents, there are "trolls" and "evil haters" (or vice versa). Yes, here on the site, for our primitives, if not for Putin, then from Ukraine, bulk or paid agents of the State Department.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 January 2021 11: 58
                        0
                        Do you understand what business

                        Initially, the subject of dispute with Mikhail is the threat of Nazism.
                        Nationalism is a related topic that can be condemned in a controversy

                        But you are for communism. For you, nations are a relic of bourgeois times, and peoples are a relic of feudal and ancient ones. The nationalism of the titular nation is the most dangerous thing for you with which you need to fight. You have class thinking. There are exploiters and exploited. The rest is from the evil one and the problem of national identity is irrelevant for you.

                        If you are trying to synthesize nationalism with socialism, then we get the German way of Hitler or a failed alternative in the form of Strasserism. There is no room for the classics of Marxism-Leninism here.

                        Agree with me that it is impossible to build a just welfare state without taking into account the issues of ownership of the means of production.


                        Norway did a pretty good job.

                        But at the same time, I, for example, do not see a more just theory than communism.

                        I prefer practice. Norway to help everyone.

                        What does “different answers and concepts” mean? Class society hasn't gone anywhere

                        The attitude towards class society has changed. Classes are strata, and they cannot be eliminated in general. Destroy the owners, there will be siloviki and officials distributing cash flows. They will continue to be "new nobles". There are no classes, but interest groups have remained and have even grown. Corporatism is not obsolete.

                        What will you offer to the generation of the 90s and 2000s?
                        Why do they need your USSR 2.0 (or 3.0, how to count)?
                        If you were successful at tackling women at 20, would you be using the same tactics at 50?

                        Here, probably, I will disagree. Have you read Surkov's article "Putin's Long State"? There, "dissent" is strongly discouraged.

                        Dissent is discouraged at different levels in different ways. You are not in a "corporation" and you can think whatever. But only in the kitchen. And you cannot go to rallies and write on social networks.
                        If you were in a corporation, you could not even think differently. Or you would have to pretend to the point of developing schizophrenia.
                      5. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 30 January 2021 13: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        For you, nations are a relic of bourgeois times, and peoples are a relic of feudal and ancient ...

                        Not entirely true, nations (peoples), this is an objective reality. Uzbek and Russian, for example, are different peoples, with their own history and culture, Alisher Navoi and Ali Abu ibn Sina (Avicena) or Ulugbek, for example, did no less for global science and culture than Pushkin or Lomonosov, for example. A person of any nation should be proud of its best representatives. The only question is the contradiction between nations. With an increase in the level of education, all contradictions are removed. Today, the educated intelligent Armenian and the educated intelligent Russian differ little from each other, without losing their national identity.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Norway did a pretty good job.

                        Unfortunately, today we can only remember about "Norwegian socialism". With the collapse of the USSR, the whole world is attacking the rights of workers (as a class), since the example in the face of the USSR and the "social camp" no longer exists.

                        Quote: Engineer
                        Classes are strata, and they cannot be eliminated in general.

                        Classes differ in their place in the social production system. It seems to me that this is a more accurate classification. Personally, it is much more convenient for me to operate with them. I would not call them strata, or rather strata, in my opinion, do not describe social relations so accurately.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What will you offer to the generation of the 90s and 2000s?
                        Why do they need your USSR 2.0 (or 3.0, how to count)?
                        If you were successful at tackling women at 20, would you be using the same tactics at 50?

                        Well, about women, perhaps little has changed, the principles have remained the same, except that we have become more confident in ourselves)))) And the generation of the 90s and 2000s, with the current socio-economic formation, simply have no prospects. Worldwide industrial production is falling, and the "service economy" is growing. How many one person employed in industrial production can feed "nail service masters" or "eyebrow architects"? We see what is becoming with the environment, in my Kuban in the open ground, even tomatoes like "Volgogradets" don't really grow, I'm not talking about "Bull's Heart". These problems cannot be solved with the current formation. And such problems are "a car and a small cart". What else can you offer them - libertarianism? But this is absolutely utopia. What else is there? Capitalism with a "human face" in the absence of such a deterrent as the USSR was not possible. It is possible, of course, but only if other countries (peoples) are robbed.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You are not in a "corporation" and you can think whatever. But only in the kitchen. And you cannot go to rallies and write on social networks.

                        This does not suit me at all. And the same generations of the 90s, 2000s are not satisfied. Hence the conclusion is that social protest will only grow until some "Black Colonels" come, and then all the same, "the thread will rip off."
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 January 2021 15: 31
                        +1
                        Well, I don't want to argue about communism. Straight in general.

                        And in Norway, everything is fine and the three-sector model of the economy does not imply that production feeds services.
                        All slogans like
                        Capitalism with a "human face" in the absence of such a deterrent as the USSR was not possible. It is possible, of course, but only if other countries (peoples) are robbed.

                        already fed up

                        I was in Austria a year ago, and I still think how cleverly they hid the true face of capitalism. Everything looks human. And surely someone is being robbed, scoundrels.

                        There was no desire to hurt you. I just don't want the historical section to turn into an arena for ideological disputes.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 29 January 2021 15: 28
    -1
    And if such an article, as I suggested, appears, and several sentences are passed on it, the language on this topic will not flutter very much


    Hi Mikhail, well, you gave it away! Yes, just give our judges a firing squad, they will let anyone down under it, and it is not a problem to recruit "witnesses". Forgot how it was at a certain time? The laws in this country are executed, to put it mildly, in a very peculiar way.
    But in general, "the matter of saving the drowning is the work of the drowning themselves" and the citizens do not have to rely on the "Office" and the police, but they need to take everything into their own hands. Examples were, for example, the Brazilian "Escudo de la Morte", they completely cut off the oxygen for the communists, and at the same time for the local bandits.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 19: 40
      +1
      Hello, Uncle Kostya. What is the attitude towards our judges? Are they maniacs to pass execution sentences back and forth? "At a certain time" there was an orientation towards the elimination of class enemies, the state machine worked for the direct destruction of certain categories of the population "in a period of aggravation of the class struggle." And then, the scale of repression in later times was greatly exaggerated. Although, what can I say, the people got a lot for nothing.
      But if
      Quote: Sea Cat
      take everything into your own hands.

      then trouble will come ... At least half a century ago it was still possible to talk cautiously about something like that ... No, and then it was too late. But now, when the media is everywhere, everywhere and can pour anything into anyone's head in any quantity, we have to admit that people from previously conscious (albeit not very much) subjects have turned into a zombie herd, trust such a herd to accept some decisions or giving something in hand - the height of stupidity. I, as a typical representative of this herd (I at least realize and admit this), believe that if I personally give something "in my hands" and offer to solve my problems on my own, without looking back at the state, then I can do a lot that flammable tears can be traded like oil - for export instead of oil. And if those who do not consider themselves a herd, but consider themselves very independent and wise, also begin to solve their problems, then in general it will be necessary to go into the forests, covering their tracks.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 29 January 2021 20: 03
        +2
        ... then in general it will be necessary to go into the woods, covering up their tracks.

        Right now I have just such a desire. Painfully, there are a lot of "independent and wise" people at the top, those who do not consider themselves a herd at all. laughing
  • vladcub
    vladcub 29 January 2021 15: 53
    +1
    “There is no threat of Nazism,” I will say a little differently: “There is no threat of interethnic and inter-confessional enmity YET.” This is “still” very fragile. Especially if there is an interest, and there is definitely such a thing
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 29 January 2021 16: 16
      +2
      Does the miner think that there are no people willing to destabilize the situation?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 18: 37
        +2
        The minus writer dreams of destabilizing it. And he thinks that when, as in Bosnia, they begin to kill some, the others will all remain alive and well. In the style of "what for us?"
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 29 January 2021 19: 53
          0
          Quite possible
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 29 January 2021 19: 39
        +1
        I will support Vladkub. Didn't PACE advocate for the Caucasian militants? Basayev or Raduev had flintlocks or modern small arms of foreign production. I was holding an M-16 in my hands, but what do you think: are they growing instead of acorns? I wish I could find such an oak tree
  • Avior
    Avior 29 January 2021 15: 23
    +5
    Soviet legislation was still more humane
    ... Article 191-2. Encroachment on the life of a police officer or
    people's guard

    Encroachment on the life of a police officer or a people's
    vigilante in connection with their official or social activities in
    protection of public order - is punishable by imprisonment for
    a term of five to fifteen years with reference to a term of two to five
    years or without exile, and under aggravated circumstances - mortal
    execution **.

    Still, the accuracy of wording, law enforcement practice, and most importantly, their invariability are important. So that from school children clearly distinguish what is specifically criminally punishable, otherwise a wide field for arbitrariness is possible: ((
    Another religious composition card can be imposed, and this will apply to such a problem.
    hi
  • vladcub
    vladcub 29 January 2021 15: 40
    0
    Misha, all four limbs are FOR. We just lack such "happiness". As soon as such "fun" begins, then "Mama do not cry."
    Here in my street, at least 3 nationalities, what about you? Now my division is simple: a normal person bangs or #, you yourself know the definition, then nationality.
    My history teacher, Adyg, told, from the words of the old people: in the Caucasus until 1917 they did not recognize division by nationality. It used to be: “a good person or a bad, Muslim or Christian, rich or poor, and the last thing - nationality, but now“ the devil has a bow on the side. ”We used to say that in the evening
  • Radius
    Radius 30 January 2021 17: 53
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    I looked at the ethnic map of Bosnia, before that Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and other Balkan countries, mentally united them ...
    Then he looked at the ethnic map of Russia.

    And after the horrors that Valery describes here, I felt so sad ...
    Here I sit and think: maybe we shouldn't be so gentle with our Nazis here? Maybe it's time to identify them now, take and shoot nafig, out of harm's way.
    In the USSR, there was one unique article in the criminal code of the RSFSR with an absolutely definite sanction. That is, there was only one punishment in it - clearly defined. Not as in most articles - "from three to five years with or without confiscation", but clearly and unambiguously. This article had a number, if I am not mistaken, 190.1 and was called "Encroachment on the life of a police officer." During the years of perestroika, it was canceled, but I'm not sure what they did right. The article is short, but very indicative, in my opinion. I can't vouch for the literalness of the quote, but something close to the text:
    Any encroachment on the life of a police officer in connection with the performance of his official duties for the maintenance of public order is punishable by death.

    This is how it is simple and tasteful. smile
    I would now introduce such an article in relation to our newly-minted Nazis.
    It will not be so easy to formulate the disposition of the article there, of course, but one can think about it. The main thing is that the content of the article for the presence of corpus delicti does not provide for any appeals or something like that, but be simple and understandable. For example like this:
    The spread of ideas of radical nationalism on the territory of the Russian Federation is punishable by death.

    And no suspended sentences. There is an article - no need to think about the verdict.
    Well, then let the Supreme Court explain what "spreading" is and define the concept of "radical nationalism".

    Sometimes radical liberalism is no different from Nazism :)
  • Jaromir
    Jaromir 29 January 2021 14: 37
    +10
    Commander - Ratko Mladic


    NATO intelligence services in Russia, in Europe around the world were looking for him ... And the General remained in Serbia, although he understood perfectly well what awaited him. Real men do not change their homeland.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 29 January 2021 15: 01
    +1
    Valeriy, purely out of opposition: "in Belarus (for example) Catholics will be declared a separate nation" in Bosnia, the confessional majority is Muslim, and in Belarus, Orthodox
    1. VLR
      29 January 2021 15: 18
      +3
      It’s not a matter of percentage, but the division of people not according to national, but confessional principles. This is now, probably, probably only in Israel is possible: converted to Judaism - means "Jew". If in conditional Belarus they declare Orthodox Christians and not Catholics as a separate nation, this will not change anything. It will probably serve as a destabilizing factor.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 29 January 2021 16: 11
        0
        What it will be: a "destabilizing factor" - no doubt
  • vladcub
    vladcub 29 January 2021 16: 49
    +1
    "So a truly unique people," Muslims "Valery, appeared here, but now how things are, and now there is a similar" people "?
    1. VLR
      29 January 2021 16: 56
      +2
      In my opinion, the former Yugoslavs still call the residents of Bosnia, who practice Islam, "Muslims." Outside the borders of the former Yugoslavia, they are Bosnians. But the Bosnians are citizens of BiH of any nationality.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 29 January 2021 20: 06
        +1
        "these are citizens of BiH of any nationality" only Serbs are not very popular there. You say it yourself
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 29 January 2021 20: 11
        0
        "they call those professing Islam" Actually, I did not mean confessional affiliation, but nationality "Muslim"
        PS.
        I'm waiting for new stories
  • Cure72
    Cure72 29 January 2021 20: 51
    +1
    Thank you very much Valery!
    I save the entire cycle of articles for offline reading (chrome pages in a separate folder).