Military Review

Secret societies of future Decembrists and their programs

216
Secret societies of future Decembrists and their programs
Cover: "Russian Truth"


Comrade, believe: she will rise,
Captivating Star of Happiness,
Russia will wake up from a dream,
And on the ruins of autocracy
Write our names!
(To Chaadaev. A.S. Pushkin)

History the first in Russia against the autocracy. In our last article about the Decembrists, we parted on the fact that the Union of Welfare had dissolved itself. However, on its basis, in the spring of 1821, two large secret organizations at once arose in Russia: the Southern Society, headed by Pavel Pestel in Ukraine, and the Northern Society, headed by Nikita Muravyov, in St. Petersburg. It is believed that the Southern society was more revolutionary, while the Northern one was more moderate.

How is the organization of conspirators different from the organization of revolutionaries?


It is important to note here how the organization of conspirators differs from the organization of revolutionaries. The conspirators do not plan to change the social order. That is, their plans include the elimination of the monarch, who can be blinded, tonsured into a monk, strangled and even hidden in prison under an iron mask. But the conspiracy of the revolutionaries is more interesting. Here there is necessarily a program of reorganization of society, a break in gradualism, a rapid transition from one phase of development of the state and country to another. Both the Southern and Northern societies had such programs. For Yuzhny it was Pestel's "Russian Truth", which members of the society adopted as a goal-setting document at a congress in Kiev in 1823. And for Severny, Muravyov's "Constitution". True, the "northerners" had quite a lot of disagreements in relation to it, which weakened the position of society. Consider both of these programs ...

"Russian Truth" Pestel


In his Russkaya Pravda, Pestel proceeded from the then revolutionary idea of ​​the supremacy of the power of the people over the power of the ruler. He wrote:

The Russian people do not belong to any person or family. On the contrary, the government is the property of the people, and it was established for the good of the people, and not the people exist for the good of the government.

Wonderful words - all of us and always remember them! Pestel saw the new Russia as an indivisible republic with a strong centralized power. The federal state structure was rejected by him on the simple grounds that

"The private good of the region" is not so important as the "good of the whole state" ...

Pestel considered the people's veche of the Novgorod Republic to be an example of democratic rule in the renewed Russia. But since it was clearly impossible to gather veche from all over Russia, he proposed the division of Russia into regions, provinces, uyezds and volosts, in which all adult male citizens from the age of 20 would have the right to vote and participate in annual "popular meetings", electing delegates for representation at a higher level of management.

It was assumed that all citizens would have the right to elect and be elected to any government bodies on the basis of not direct, but two-stage elections. First, the volost people's assembly elects deputies to the county and provincial assemblies, and already representatives - to the "very top". The supreme legislative body of the new Russia should have become the People's Chamber, elected for a five-year term. Only it would pass laws, declare war and make peace. Nobody could dissolve it. Accordingly, Pestel's supreme executive body was the Sovereign Duma of five people, which was also elected for five years from the deputies of the People's Veche.

Power, Pestel believed, needs to be controlled. Therefore, so that both the People's Chamber and the Sovereign Duma would not go beyond the legal framework, he invented a control body - the Supreme Council, which consisted of 120 "boyars" who were to be elected to their office for life.

Pestel also had an extremely negative attitude to serfdom:

Possessing other people is a shameful thing ... contrary to natural laws ... Slavery in Russia must be resolutely abolished ...

The peasants, in his opinion, should have been freed by giving them land and all the rights of citizenship had to be assigned to them. The military settlements had to be destroyed (apparently, the nobles did not like them very much, if this demand fell into even such a serious program), and all the land allotted for them, again, should be given to the peasants for free land use. Moreover, the land in the state should have been divided into "public land" belonging to the volost community, which could not be sold under any circumstances, and "private land". Public land was divided into plots and issued to members of the rural municipality for use for a period of exactly one year, and then either remained with the same person, or transferred to someone who could dispose of it better.

Private lands will belong to the treasury or to individuals who have these with complete freedom ... These lands, being intended for the formation of private property, will serve to deliver abundance.

This is how Pestel thought in no other way, and I must say that all his proposals were quite reasonable and quite easy to implement.

Pestel also proposed a new taxation system designed to fully support entrepreneurship. All payments in kind, in his opinion, should have been replaced by collected money. Taxes should have

levy from the property of citizens, and not from the persons thereof.

Russkaya Pravda also resolved the national question, which has always been acute in Russia. According to Pestel, only strong nations, capable of single-handedly resisting foreign invaders, have independence. For small nations it is both better and more useful if

they will unite in spirit and society with a large state and completely merge their nationality with the nationality of the ruling people ...

But he also emphasized that people, regardless of their racial and national nature, are equal to each other by nature, as a result of which a great people, subjugating small ones, cannot and in no way should use its superiority in order to oppress them.

It is interesting that the Southern society openly recognized the army as its support and saw in it the decisive force of the revolutionary coup. The members of the Society planned to seize power in the capital, after which the tsar should be forced to abdicate. In accordance with the new goals, the organization of the Society also changed: now only military men were admitted to it, discipline within the Society was tightened; and all its members were to obey the Directory, the elected governing center, unconditionally.

But it was mainly Pestel who set the tone in the Society. Decembrist N.V. Basargin later recalled that Pestel took the lead in all the debates:

His bright logical mind guided our debate and often agreed disagreements.

"Constitution" Muravyov


In Northern society, there was no such harsh dictate. All questions were discussed at the table at lunches at N. Muravyov's or at breakfasts at Ryleev's, that is, pleasant was combined with useful. There were both moderates and radicals. The former supported Muravyov's "Constitution", while the radicals, including Ryleev, the Bestuzhev brothers, Obolensky, Pushchin and a number of other conspirators, were inspired by Pestel's "Russian Truth". There was a lot of controversy, but very little strict discipline. The main role in the Society was played by K. Ryleev. He knew how to convince people and thus attracted more and more "free-thinkers" to him.

Both societies maintained secret relations with each other, and in the spring of 1824 Pestel personally went to St. Petersburg and there tried to agree on their unification into one organization. However, the "northerners" did not like many of the provisions of Russkaya Pravda. Despite this, it was possible to agree on the main thing - a simultaneous performance both in the north and in the south in the summer of 1826.

The plans of the revolutionaries were not destined to come true. The interregnum situation prompted active members of the Northern Society to decide on an immediate performance in the capital. The northerners had to act in isolation from their southern associates. The defeat of the uprising on Senate Square and the performance of the Chernigov regiment in the south put an end to the Decembrist organizations. The foundations of the liberation struggle worked out by the Decembrists, constitutional projects and organizational experience played a significant role in the education of subsequent generations of fighters against the autocracy.

As for the “Constitution” of H.M. Muravyov, it was written on the basis of Western European, American and Russian legislative documents, and the last of its versions was written on January 13, 1826 (that is, after the defeat of the uprising) at the request of the Investigative Committee in the casemate of the Peter and Paul Fortress.

In the introduction to it, Muravyov stated the following:

The Russian people, free and independent, are not and cannot be the property of any person or family. The source of the supreme power is the people, who have the exclusive right to make basic decisions for themselves.

The future Russia, Muravyov believed, should be a federal state, consisting of large administrative units - in the last version called "provinces", and the right to independently decide all its internal affairs.

The supreme legislative body of power should have become the People's Chamber, which resembles in its organization and functions the Congress of the United States of America and consists of two chambers: the House of Representative and the Supreme Duma. The first expresses the will of the entire people, the second - of individual administrative units. The highest executive power in the renewed Russia was to belong to the emperor, as before, and this "knowledge" was still established by hereditary. But the emperor, according to Muravyov, was supposed to become "the supreme official of the Russian government," and by no means an autocrat, and his functions were akin to those of the American president.

Freedom of speech and press was proclaimed:

Everyone has the right to express his thoughts and feelings unrestrainedly and communicate them through the press to his compatriots.

... freedom of religion, full equality of all citizens in the face of the law, personal inviolability, sacred property rights and, most importantly, a jury. Muravyov's judicial system was borrowed from the British.

As for serfdom, the Constitution of Muravyov said directly:

A slave who touches the Russian land becomes free ...

But the ants were not going to take away the land from either the landowners or the Church. The villagers, that is, the peasants, were supposed to allocate land plots in the amount of two dessiatines for each peasant household. But they received the right to buy land in hereditary ownership. So, if someone lacked land, he could easily buy it. And money? Take money on credit!

Such were the programs for tsarist Russia among the Decembrists of the north and south of Russia. But in order to put them into practice, the most important thing was required - to take power into our own hands. And it went to that. But, as always, His Majesty Chance intervened in human plans!

PS Book for additional reading: N.V. Basargin. Memories, stories, articles. - East Siberian book publishing house, 1988

To be continued ...
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 January 2021 04: 15
    +8
    Tolstoy considered Veche and Potok-hero as a model.
    I always wondered how much the XNUMXth century views corresponded to the Novgorod reality.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 27 January 2021 07: 55
      +3

      Pestel also had an extremely negative attitude to serfdom:

      Possessing other people is a shameful thing ... contrary to natural laws ... Slavery in Russia must be resolutely abolished ...
      actual ... wi you say for the reality, Vyacheslav Olegovich? for our current feudal system? al aspired to this by the Russian people, throughout history? How did it happen that a couple of hundred oligarchs "have" such a country, and some still do not mind? Do you not want to "dig" not "deep antiquity" but, so to speak, "fresh"? you are very picturesque ... hi
      1. kalibr
        27 January 2021 08: 35
        +10
        Quote: Aerodrome
        you do not want to "dig" not "deep antiquity" but, so to speak, "fresh"

        I am constantly writing about this, haven't you noticed? Is there a series of articles about peasants right now? Yes, there is a lot of history. But doesn't she explain why villages are emptying and that this is a natural and necessary process. Or that the peasant consciousness in our country at a certain period of history began to dominate even in cities, and hence all the consequences? And the "feudal system", as you write ... And what other system can there be in a country where every second is the first generation of citizens, and the second is the second, that is, the most socially unstable ... It's all about modernity, if you think about it. .. Soon there will be the last article on this topic - there are all the conclusions.
        1. depressant
          depressant 27 January 2021 10: 14
          +10
          I fully support you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! A couple of years ago, I spoke at VO that half of my classmates at the institute were recruited directly from the village, which is bad. So they pecked me here!
          Meanwhile, selection according to a quota (village, small people) into complex institutes of physical and mathematical profile at least excludes the serious profile of the applicant. It is in this case that a rural school cannot provide a decent level on a massive scale! And I remember how these guys studied. This was not the enormous enthusiasm of the first Soviet five-year plans. The same learning outcome. But they were pulled out, not expelled, and they quickly began to understand that the main thing in life is to adapt and be grateful to someone. And surprisingly, being grateful to specific people, they mocked Soviet power as a whole.
          And where is our microelectronics now? Now they will come and tell me about Elbrus.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 27 January 2021 12: 08
      +12
      Quote: Korsar4
      I always wondered how much the XNUMXth century views corresponded to the Novgorod reality.

      The XNUMXth century is the century of romanticism. Read what they wrote about the Novgorod Republic in the XNUMXth century. - it seems that Novgorod is just an ideal, so to speak, an example of people's democracy. Direct popular rule. If there were pragmatists who saw in the Novgorod republic just an example of oligarchic rule, then they somehow did not really speak out.
      So the Decembrists, in fact, tried to "adapt" the idealized Novgorod system to their contemporary realities. Roughly speaking, they tried to create many Novgorods in the country, each with its own veche, and to unite them with something like a "superpeche". smile Two-tier democracy, as in the United States, to which they too, certainly looked back.
      What is ancient Novgorod?
      And Novgorod, in fact, is a few families, clans that usurped power. The political struggle in Novgorod is the process of dividing this power by representatives of these families. Depending on the personal abilities of the participants in this struggle, powers of power were transferred from one family to another. And the veche, which in the XNUMXth century. they were so moved - just a crowd, whose voice was bought, and sometimes, especially in the XIV-XV centuries. literally, for money. Veche has NEVER been an independent governing body; boyars have always stood behind its decisions - this or that grouping. There may have been exceptions in the early history of Novgorod, but nothing comes to my mind. Veche always acted in the interests of one of the boyar groups.
      Many did not understand this at that time, idealizing the Novgorod system. So, I'm afraid that for the most part "did not match."
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 January 2021 13: 36
        +9
        Read what they wrote about the Novgorod Republic in the XNUMXth century. - it seems that Novgorod is just an ideal, so to speak, an example of people's democracy.
        Akin to the reasoning of the "pike vests" that Chernomorsk is about to be declared a "free city"
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 27 January 2021 14: 27
        +6
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        There may have been exceptions in the early history of Novgorod, but nothing comes to my mind. Veche always acted in the interests of one of the boyar groups

        Good afternoon Mikhail, you wrote everything correctly about the veche, but it does not become such an instrument of power for boyar groups at once - by the second half of Novgorod's existence as an independent state. Initially, this is still a real institution of the power of society, but gradually it really turns into what you described (remember the Spartan appeal), but far from immediately, this process took a couple of centuries. hi
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 27 January 2021 16: 19
          +8
          Quote: Mihaylov
          Good afternoon Michael

          Kind. smile
          Quote: Mihaylov
          Initially, it is still a real institution of power in society.

          I expected such an objection, even raised it to myself ... But I came to the conclusion that it was not so.
          I just wondered - what are the signs that the Veche expressed the interests of the people, society? What is this society in general in relation to ancient Novgorod?
          Consider, I think, we will, Novgorod only until the XII century, further it is already too obvious a purely boyar influence on the veche, there, in my opinion, there is nothing to argue at all. Some boyars were smashed at the instigation of others.
          Let's leave the rural population of the Novgorod land in peace at once. They did not participate in the veche, if anyone represented their interests at the veche, it was the landowners, and these are completely different interests.
          We take only the population of the city proper. What was it made of? Craftsmen, merchants. All? No, the prince with his retinue, and the court, but these did not participate in the veche. Well, the local nobility, the landowners, too, of course, had their own yards with a set of servants (including their own squads). Who have you forgotten? Clergy. These themselves hardly shouted at the veche (although they probably could), but they had an influence on the flock. Officials - all sorts of mytniks, virniks, sneakers and others. But, I believe, there were much less of them in percentage terms than now.
          This is the society. Everyone has different interests.
          What problems did this society face? In general, two: an increase in profits from trade and an increase in the collection of tribute from the population, that is, the expansion of the territory. The tribute that was taken in its natural form (fur, wax, etc.) also required implementation and, as a result, was locked in trade. Craftsmen could trade independently in Novgorod itself, but export trade also required intermediaries. Plus Novgorod's dependence on food and other resources, such as iron, for example. Everything is tied to the merchants. So who is in charge in the city? Merchants.
          The second most important are large landowners. They collect tribute, they have armed forces.
          I did not specifically mention the boyars. In my opinion, boyars are simply representatives of the merchants and (or) landowners who have achieved the greatest success, who have formed their own separate class. Some of them grew out of the druzhina nobility of the first princes, some reached this status through wealth and influence. To one degree or another, they represented the interests of either merchants or landowners, depending on their origin and current occupation.
          What contradictions could arise in Novgorod?
          Interethnic? I have not heard of such.
          Religious? Sometimes, at first, pagan Christians, later heretical movements appeared - there are all kinds of shearers ... But these are episodes, not a system.
          Social? Whom with whom? Craftsmen versus merchants? Clergy versus landowners? Merchants versus landowners? Serfs against anyone? I have not heard anything about such conflicts. Later, another layer of lumpen appeared, but they did not perform independently.
          Only political contradictions associated with the struggle for power within the city itself remained. There were always enough of them. And in these conflicts, each side has always been represented by all social strata.
          What questions did the veche decide?
          The first question is the choice of officials for positions in the city government. Some boyars were exchanged for others. The princes were chosen and expelled. The bishop was elected.
          The second question is some foreign policy actions. Fight - or put up, for example. To give tribute or not to give.
          But so that the veche, for example, at the request of the blacksmiths guild, decides the issue of reducing duties on ironmongery - I have not heard that. In general, I don’t remember that at the veche any economic or social issues were decided - only political ones.
          So, in any case, I see it this way, the veche was an instrument for solving exclusively political issues, but not social or economic ones. And the subjects of political activity in Novgorod were exclusively boyar groups, represented by all social categories formed by kinship, personal sympathies and antipathies, place of residence, in the end, but not on the basis of social belonging.
          Something like that.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 27 January 2021 21: 24
            +3
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            But for the veche, for example, at the request of the blacksmiths guild, to decide the issue of reducing duties on ironmongery - I have not heard this

            I apologize, Mikhail, for not answering immediately, I had to run to the dentist.
            As for Novgorod and the Veche - briefly:
            Yes, the veche most likely did not resolve issues related to hardware, like the State. The Duma should not deal with the issue of painting sortings near the station, for this, both then and now there are relevant executive authorities, no matter how they are called.
            Veche resolved issues of calling / expelling the prince, elections / dismissal of townspeople, thousand, sotsk, archbishops, issues of war / peace. That is, it exercised the highest legislative power and controlled all other branches of government by re-election (in the 12-13th century, the princes changed 56 times, and the mayor even more often - however, I write from memory, I can be wrong in the numbers)
            Let's leave the rural population of the Novgorod land in peace at once.

            Let's not leave, the main population of Novgorod for the 12th century is free communal farmers, and yes: they participated in the veche and apparently even representatives of other city-communities that were part of the Novgorod state took part in it: Ladozhians, Pskovians.
            The economy of Novgorod is agricultural both for this time and for the entire time of its existence as an independent state. As well as all similar societies of that time. Trade is just an "extra piece of butter" on a sandwich, due to its advantageous geographical position on trade routes.
            By the way, the agrarian history of the North-West has been quite well studied and there is a good historiography on it.
            You are guided, as I see it, by the views of Yanin, who proceeded from the fact that Novgorod originally arose as a conglomerate of estates of large landowners, patrimonials. Now it is hardly possible to talk about this seriously, and Yanin himself later admitted that large patrimonial land tenure (those same boyars) in Novgorod was just beginning to take shape in the 12th century and was formed no earlier than the 14th century. That's when we really observe the addition of large patrimonial land tenure, the representatives of which are the boyars and de facto begin to exercise power in the city, and in fact the outrages that you described occur, but this is the 14-15th centuries.
            In my opinion, boyars are simply representatives of the merchants and (or) landowners who have achieved the greatest success.

            Most likely these are the descendants of the tribal nobility, at least in the bulk, although there could be other ways of getting into this class.
            Yours! hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 January 2021 23: 04
              +3
              That's interesting.
              Regarding the structure of Novgorod society before the XIV century, that is, the absence of large landowners in it ... let's say, I agree. But I was interested in the question: how do you imagine the gathering of the Novgorod veche? I'm not making jokes right now, I'm interested. Is it really like a gathering planned for a couple of weeks with the dispatch of messengers and the participation of representatives of suburbs, rural communities, etc. They must be warned in advance so that they can come to sing.
              It seems to me that the veche gathered without any schedules, sometimes completely spontaneously, sometimes for a couple of days, like: "Guys, tomorrow we will all go to the veche. We shout for Mikhalka Stepanich." In this case, only representatives of communities located in the immediate vicinity of Novgorod could participate in the veche, and if spontaneously, then only and exclusively the townspeople. I have no doubts that the bulk of the population of the Novgorod land was made up of peasants, but how many of them participated in the public life of the city itself? No, I would still exclude the rural population from active urban life, including participation in the veche. In Novgorod, they could only complain if something was, in their opinion, wrong.
              As for the boyars, then again, perhaps, and even probably, among them were the descendants of the tribal nobility, but the basis of this class, nevertheless, in my opinion, was created precisely by people from aristocratic druzhina strata, the term itself says , which, with a high degree of probability, comes from the word "fight", plus those who rose from the merchant class.
              Trade. This is not an additional piece of butter, but the only source of silver for commodity exchange and a tool of survival that is simply necessary for Novgorod due to the inability to provide itself with raw materials for handicraft production and food.
              Well, about the issues that were resolved at the veche, or rather its interpretation as an instrument of public power. As far as I remember, not once in the entire history of Novgorod was not a single person who did not come from the boyar class elected to the highest administrative positions. Never. After the veche made this or that decision, all power and control passed to the newly authorized persons, and these were always representatives of the upper class, who immediately had an opposition formed from the same boyars themselves, and the political programs of the opposing boyar factions were fundamentally different from each other. each other did not differ, except for the name of the prince, whom this or that faction supported. No matter how hard I tried, I could not see in any way how the veche influenced the social life of Novgorod, and not only the political one.
              And in what concretely do you see the "public" (or other, besides political) role of the veche?
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 28 January 2021 10: 33
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                But I was interested in the question: how do you imagine the gathering of the Novgorod veche? I'm not making jokes right now, I'm interested.

                This is a very good question, Mikhail, to which unfortunately there is no answer, because we do not know how the "gathering" and "meeting" of the veche actually took place. Unfortunately, the sources do not reflect these moments in any way, therefore all descriptions of the "meetings" of the veche are hypothetical. For example, the same Yanin expressed the idea that the representation at the veche had a two-tier nature, that is, the ends sent their representatives to the meeting. He proceeded from the fact that, in his opinion, there is not enough space for a large number of people on the Trade side and on the Sofia side, where meetings of the veche could take place. Everything seems to be logical and even entered the historical literature almost as an axiom, but in reality these are only hypothetical constructions of Ioannina, because we do not know how the meeting of the veche took place and where it took place. How the discussion went and the decisions were made - shouting or something else - we also do not know. With what regularity it was collected - again it is not known, we can only say that it was quite often, since there are a lot of references in the annals. And probably there were some planned, pre-agreed fees, this is indirectly indicated by the fact that representatives of their other cities (sometimes at least) were present at the training camps (there is such evidence). What range of issues was solved, in addition to the above, is also unknown: in the sense of whether some smaller administrative issues could be resolved at the veche (conditionally - the construction of a toilet) - this is also a question: I think - unlikely, but again presumably.
                Regarding the influence of the veche on the social life of Novgorod - well, it could not but influence, all the highest executive bodies were elected there: military, religious, administrative, judicial and apparently their activities were controlled, this is indirectly indicated by the process of their frequent re-election due to dissatisfaction with their activities ...
                As for the boyars, there is also an extensive historiography, to be honest, I have not addressed this topic for 25 years, but as far as I remember, the version of the origin of the boyars from the tribal nobility looked more balanced. If I am not mistaken, Vaschenko wrote something about the boyars in his articles.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 28 January 2021 11: 59
                  +1
                  As for the boyars, I just recently read Gorsky's monograph on the Russian squad. I am not ready to unconditionally agree with everything that was said there, but the fact that he deduces the origin of the boyars from the druzhina aristocracy seems to me quite reliable. However, this does not exclude other versions, you just need to figure out what was the ratio among the boyars of the descendants of vigilantes, tribal aristocracy and "homo novus" and how it changed over time.
                  But with regard to the veche, I have a completely clear and internally consistent picture, according to which the veche is a spontaneous meeting of townspeople, gathering at moments of exacerbation of the political struggle or in connection with a change in the political situation to resolve one or two issues. At the same time, there could be an unlimited number of such veche - depending on the degree of importance of these issues - ukhodansky, konchansky, on the sides and citywide. As far as I understand, the holding of the city council could have been preceded by a series of smaller meetings.
                  The existence of "planned" veche, such as "re-election meetings" is not confirmed by anything, as well as the existence of any controlling bodies that monitored the activities of the current government is not confirmed. The opposition coped with the functions of control quite successfully. If there is no "fermentation of social matter" in the city, then the veche may not be convened for years, but if the political struggle was in a stage of aggravation, various veche could gather almost daily throughout the crisis until its resolution.
                  In support of my opinion, I cannot refer to specific sources - I read a lot, but often I don’t remember and even confuse the titles of books. Only the general impression of reading and comprehending what has been read remains in the head, and the transformation of opinion on the issue under study is recorded. Often, I cannot remember in which book I learned certain facts and whether any thoughts expressed by me are read from some author in their pure form or the fruit of my creative processing of what I read. Just a picture is recorded, which at the right moment I can get out of the brain blocks and describe to the interlocutor.
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 28 January 2021 12: 52
                    +1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    But with regard to the veche, I developed a completely clear and internally consistent picture

                    In general, regarding the veche, you have described everything correctly, there are no special objections. I will only add that the Konchak struggle has been recorded in chronicles since the beginning of the 13th century, but it could have happened earlier.
                    The existence of "planned" veche, such as "re-election meetings" is not confirmed by anything, as well as the existence of any controlling bodies that monitored the activities of the current government is not confirmed.

                    Without a doubt, there were no special bodies. Veche "in the posadnichstvo and in the princes is free of nature."
                    So (just for example) in 1255 the mayor Dmitr was removed at the veche, accused of serious abuse, and his property was requisitioned and divided among all the townspeople.
                    Regarding "planned / unplanned", it is difficult to say anything: just what I have already mentioned earlier: from time to time residents of other cities that were part of the Novgorod volost also participated in the veche.
                    you just need to figure out what was the ratio among the boyars of the descendants of vigilantes, tribal aristocracy and "homo novus" and how it changed over time.

                    In general, yes: the boyars of the 11-12 centuries are far from the same as the boyars of the 14-15 centuries, and even more so of the 16-17 centuries.
                    For the 12-13 centuries in Novgorod, which we are talking about, the boyars are clearly the leaders of the local community, and only among them were the highest officials (posadniks, tysyatsky) elected, but its origin is not very clear to me, we must immerse ourselves in historiography.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 28 January 2021 13: 26
                      +1
                      But I just remembered that during the famine of the late 1220s. at the next coup in favor of Mikhail of Chernigov, supporters of Yaroslav Pereyaslavsky from among the Novgorod boyars were forced to finance the construction of a new bridge across the Volkhov as a punishment to replace the one demolished by the flood. This is already a real decision in favor of the urban community, and not a purely political one. But nevertheless, it is more likely such an exotic kind of settling political scores, punishment for defeat in a political struggle, as, incidentally, plundering the courtyards of the disgraced boyars.
                      In general, it is interesting and useful to talk with you, thank you.
                      Tell me, why don't you write articles for the site? You have excellent (apparently, fundamental) knowledge of the Russian Middle Ages (and not only), and here on the site there is such a gap among the authors of this period. Vaschenko abandoned us, Artyom (the art-writer) also disappeared, as is sometimes the case behind him, Shpakovsky is now fascinated by other topics, I, a sinner, rarely write ... repeat It turns out that only Samsonov writes systematically about the Middle Ages, but it would be better if he did not. smile
                      Anything about ancient Novgorod, I think, would be extremely interesting. smile
                      Although, to be honest, I have long wanted to replenish my knowledge of the medieval history of Scandinavia, in particular Sweden and Denmark, with an emphasis on their eastward expansion, of course ... Starting, probably, from the Viking Age ... And then there is Gotland - is also an interesting and remarkable place. I read somewhere that there were many Russians there.
                      If I correctly assess your possibilities, then writing an article in the scientific-pop genre for 10000 characters will take you literally a few hours. smile
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 28 January 2021 15: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Tell me, why don't you write articles for the site?

                        Honestly, Mikhail, while I have not seriously thought about it, I am a relatively new person here and then most likely I will be "carried away" into "academicism", which, apart from you and a few other people, will not be interesting. Then, as I understand it, there are all sorts of difficulties with the transition to the category of authors, the design of articles, illustrations: not aware of all these issues. Yes, and for the last 25 years I have been very little interested in the topic of Ancient Rus, it would be necessary to "refresh", the factology was seriously forgotten, to look at the new historiography.
                        And then there is Gotland - also an interesting and remarkable place.

                        I wanted to go there, I really want to get to the Visby Museum, to look at that very armor. By the way, this is not very difficult and relatively inexpensive: in the summer there are ferries from the Finns there, but then the era of coronavirus began and everything was postponed indefinitely. hi
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 28 January 2021 17: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        I will be "carried away" to "academic",

                        Vaschenko also suffered from this at first. We managed by joint efforts - he listened to the opinion of readers and tried to reduce the degree of academicism, and we were sympathetic to a certain dryness of presentation. smile
                        As a result - one of the most discussed and popular authors of the section. smile
                        The technical design of the text needs to be done once, then much easier. At first, as these requirements were first presented to the authors, I also twisted my finger at my temple, they say, what for is it necessary? But if it is necessary, then it is necessary. I myself hate it when my instructions are ignored or someone climbs into my monastery with their own charter, so ... it's a sin for me to do the same with others.
                        If there is a text ready for publication, I can send you detailed instructions, which I myself received from the site editor, how to arrange it.
                        And Gotland - yes ... I learned about the Battle of Visby only from the clip of Klim Zhukov relatively recently. I was not interested in the subject matter, but interesting ...
                        hi
      3. zenion
        zenion 27 January 2021 16: 34
        +2
        I forgot the name of the Greek philosopher who wrote about three centuries. At first there was a golden age that lasted two thousand years. After him began the Silver Age, which lasted a thousand years. Now the Iron Age has come in which we live and it is the worst of all ages.
        1. kalibr
          27 January 2021 16: 52
          +4
          Quote: zenion
          Now the Iron Age has come in which we live and it is the worst of all ages.

          This is not Greek, and not a philosopher. This is the Roman poet Hesiod in the poem WORKS AND DAYS wrote about 5 generations ...
    3. ee2100
      ee2100 27 January 2021 21: 44
      +1
      Read Akunin
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 27 January 2021 23: 06
        +2
        Quote: ee2100
        Read Akunin

        Do not understand what this is?
  2. Bar1
    Bar1 27 January 2021 18: 03
    +1
    The Russian people, free and independent, are not and cannot be the property of any person or family. The source of supreme power is the people to whom it belongs


    Rusky Muravyov wrote through one page. So it is right.
  • beeper
    beeper 27 January 2021 04: 55
    +10
    hi Thank you for this educational program, Vyacheslav Olegovich (in the midst of a routine cap. Bustle, in a nervous sleeplessness of the topical struggle for survival, I was curious to read the calm lines of "deep old legends" - the thought of rebellious ancestors about the ways of state improvement of our long-suffering Fatherland)! yes
    1. depressant
      depressant 27 January 2021 10: 56
      +8
      Colleague, I like everyone on the articles of Vyacheslav Olegovich, and I put it to you. But how wrong you are! )))
      The speech in this article is directly about modernity, about its evil deeds. And it allows us to compare good intentions - partly from Pestel, partly taken from Muravyov - with what our government is preparing for all of us within the framework of globalization. Finally leaving aside the palace in Gelendzhik, about which, by the way, I have not said a word anywhere, only read about it with a smirk, I want to state with great sadness that, judging by the laws adopted over the past year, the fathers of globalization have no more faithful follower than our president.
      What is the land for the peasants? Over time, all peasants will be driven into cities with a population of over one million, become townspeople, inhabitants of hundred-story dwellers, and there they are taken under strict credit control, or on imputed income from the hands of the state. Products will be produced only by large, industrially equipped corporations on an intensive year-round basis, with a small contingent of employees. The vacated land, not employed in food production, will become the property of the now-formed nobility from officials, and we can only rejoice if it is legally forbidden to sell it to foreigners, which is from the category of non-fulfillment of dreams. What a Pestel, what Ants! These were people of their time who considered a separate state to be an independent unit. Now there are no such states.
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 27 January 2021 12: 42
        +11
        Here is the history of one village, under the Soviet regime, an ordinary rice-growing village, where there were agricultural technical schools, a mechanized column, workshops that repaired any agricultural machinery, livestock raising was developed, and if so, therefore, a dairy plant, a meat shop, processing a shop for vegetable and fruit products. The winds of change have blown. They took the land from the state farm and returned it to the peasants deceived by the Bolsheviks. Naturally, they stopped growing rice, the second thing they sold was a mechanized column, and what they had not sold is still rusting, the repair shops were still holding, but they became unnecessary. The last dairy plant to fall was somewhere in 20212. Especially sorry for the SPTU, a magnificent building in the past, now stands abandoned. As if the invaders walked through it. The whole process went on from 1991 to 2012, the village was on the defensive for quite a long time. And people? There are people, mostly newcomers, some of them poach in estuaries and sell them in places that are not established for this. Some work in the city or coastal villages and villages where ports are equipped. The city is within a 30-minute drive, during the Soviet regime I walked a regular bus, not expensive, now a minibus, more expensive, is affordable. 30 minutes for locals is a long time, for those who live in big cities, tears.
        1. depressant
          depressant 27 January 2021 14: 11
          +8
          Daniel, I have told about my village many times. Once a cheerful, noisy academic town, in which the Motherland's radar shield was forged, as the inhabitants die out, more and more turns into a transit point, where people from distant Stbirsk and Far Eastern cities come to find work in Moscow. Who buys apartments, who rents, but everyone strives to take root in the capital. And the residents of the capital settle here during the economic crisis, then come back - some to their apartments, some to the removable ones. There is no talk of any industrial development of the village for a long time. The time of economic activity in our country seems to have stopped at a minimum point, and only signs of the coming crisis are visible in the form of shops closing forever.

          And here I would like to ask my fellow experts: maybe the Novgorod veche is still so extolled that each of the powerful Novgorod clans in their activities at least to some extent showed the ability to fulfill the urgent needs of the entire society?
          Either this is a delusion, and the noisy form of "democracy", being a beautiful signboard, did not solve the problems at all.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 27 January 2021 14: 58
            +6
            This is a delusion, the principle of voting was someone who shouted down whom, and the veche was not crowded, about 200 people gathered, deputies from different ends. When it was necessary to make the "necessary" decision, the force of one of the parties was used. The problem did not solve, because it reflected the interests of the Novgorod boyars .How today the State Duma defends the interests of the modern "boyars". They travel through the village, also from the Far East, and apparently do not want to receive a Far Eastern hectare. smile And in the village there is no land. All the "peasants" were given. Yes, the village arose around 1966, while some authors claim that the village was dying out en masse. There were many such new settlements in the area at that time, and not only in ours .. And now, the agricultural holding is replacing the peasant who was given the land, previously taken away. laughing
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 27 January 2021 20: 17
            +4
            Lyudmila Yakovlevna, this is EBN, God forbid dreaming at night, with a hangover he spit about Novgorod democracy, and then they decided who had stronger fists and stronger throats
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 27 January 2021 20: 47
          +7
          "This process has been going on since 1991" has been going on for a long time.
          Recently I was in my small homeland and looked into the neighboring village. Life there came to a standstill in 1981. Prior to that, the collective farm chairman was a former front-line soldier. He was expelled from the party in 1948, for which I do not know, he was elected chairman in 1954, the smart man refused, the people respected him. He was offered: tell me about the cult of personality and we will return the squirrels and give sweets, and he said that he was thinking about them. Since then, there has been one non-party chairman in the district, and the collective farm is in the lead. How many collective farmers were offered "correct" chairmen, and the collective farmers sent everyone on a walking tour
          As soon as he left the chairmen and trindets
      2. Fat
        Fat 28 January 2021 02: 51
        +3
        hi You are right.
        And I have a persistent idiosyncrasy for "skyscrapers". I was born and raised in Izhevsk. It hurts me when I see multi-story monsters appear on the site of private households. A normal person, IMHO, cannot live on the 24th floor - this is not a house as such, but a shelter for a "robot". Now I am a Kostroma. I really like the new redevelopment of the historic center. This is when new housing estates (along the banks of the Volga) no higher than 5 floors are being built on the site of production facilities killed by time. I especially "trudge" from the typical 12 apartment two-story buildings - this is simply the aerobatics of our architects. Modestly, with taste - you can just LIVE there, and not. "Recharge" before the work shift ... New microdistricts - 9-storey 111, 121 series of panel ugrebishches ). True, brick "series" are also being built - better, but not much.
        For the occasion, I bought a part of the house in the center of Kostroma (the old-old house is 200 years old) I live unhappy, although the corridor is common ...
        What a Pestel, what Ants! These were people of their time who considered a separate state to be an independent unit. Now there are no such states.
        There are no such states now ... And there are no such people either, stupidly slipping into a unit of society - an individual
        1. depressant
          depressant 28 January 2021 04: 30
          +7
          Oh, guys ... For some reason I can't sleep. Such articles went to VO, with hints. As if they want to tell us something, but directly - they cannot. Vyacheslav Olegovich speaks about conspirators. In the next headings - again about Stalin, and the people wonder, they say, it just happened, why again. And then there was an article by a Georgian lawyer about Stalin's death as a practically proven murder and on giving evidence to the prosecutor - no, not Beria's testimony, but a double, for Beria was already shot during his arrest so as not to point out Khrushchev as an accomplice in Stalin's murder. And then I listened to Putin's speech at Davos - a heavy impression! And so I want all of this to not be, but it is. And not having a direct relation to me, he has an active indirect one. It's like the 80s are back, but only in some even more savage form. Then at least it was immediately clear where everything was going. And now - a dangerous darkness ...
          As for the high-rise buildings. Visiting the regional center, more than once or twice I passed 24-storey buildings. The feeling is terrible. As if an immensely huge mass of sheer rock is hanging over you, which is about to collapse and bury you forever. I can't imagine how you can live in this. But they are half empty, few people buy apartments, but were built a long time ago. Dehumanizing architecture to a frightening appearance in accordance with the level of disregard for the person and the greed of the developer who wants to squeeze out as much as possible from the purchased site. In my village, wonderful one-story houses for two families have survived - they were built for scientists. Opposite there are two three-story buildings. This is architecture.
          I'll try to sleep a little. Maybe it will work.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 28 January 2021 22: 15
            +2
            “Skyscrapers, skyscrapers,
            And I'm so small ”(c).

            I thought somehow on a related topic. Here's what happened:

            https://stihi.ru/2020/09/25/7674
            1. depressant
              depressant 29 January 2021 00: 15
              +2
              "Or is it a habit of floors under the roof"

              Author: KORSAR 4

              Or is it a habit of the floors under the roof.
              Exactly: no further from Earth, no closer to Heaven.
              Or a dusty attic - a memory of childhood.
              You want to say something, but you can't help but dissemble.

              And the windows are looking at different sides.
              And the landscape has been changed: though not called, and not requested.
              Day disappears, evening comes.
              The cycle will close. So, see you again.

              good hi love )))))
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 29 January 2021 00: 19
                +3
                It's good when it's not higher than the fifth. It still happens. But not everywhere.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 29 January 2021 01: 06
                  +4
                  A covid hung over the rooftops
                  he threatens everyone and everyone,
                  he rules every floor
                  owns every garage,
                  the face of death seems to be everywhere,
                  "Do not forget!" - lips whisper to me
                  gone to a gloomy rest
                  in response to the bitter "Wait!
                  Wait, don't go, don't! "
                  It is necessary ... It is necessary ... It is necessary ...
                  They threaten and demand huge
                  city ​​gorges, shackles
                  like a press of pressing ceilings.
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 29 January 2021 01: 10
                    +2
                    You feel acutely.
                    With which I agree - the world is shrinking.
                    Few people manage to avoid this narrowing.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 29 January 2021 01: 27
                      +4
                      Yes, this is me gloomily kidding, do not take me seriously))) All day I had a wild headache, cough ...
                      Or like this:
                      Souls creep in space
                      And stumbling upon Mars, "What is this?" - they say.
                      - There are only foreigners here,
                      and where is the once promised garden to us? "
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 29 January 2021 01: 33
                        +2
                        And no one has canceled the old remark - "he is talking about that."
                        Not to take the interlocutor seriously is nonsense.
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 January 2021 22: 13
          +2
          A 200 year old home is great! Doesn't require much repair?
          The Kostroma region is one of the favorites in the Central Federal District.
          1. Fat
            Fat 30 January 2021 21: 55
            +1
            hi Strongly demanding. Funnily enough, the renovation began with the fence and the gate. Last summer, we took up the roofing, partially finished, not everything was in time. Now my next turn is a porch and a workshop in the basement. But you can live smile
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 30 January 2021 22: 39
              0
              Of course, from the fence. I really understand.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 27 January 2021 05: 28
    +18
    No, after all, Ilyich was right - “the circle of these revolutionaries is narrow. They are terribly far from the people.” They could not win the broad masses of the people to their side, because they were afraid of the popular movement. On their part, only pathetic attempts were made to propagate their ideas among the people and the soldiers (and then only Muravyov-Apostol was engaged in the systematic propaganda of his ideas among the soldiers), they gathered there, whispered something in the corners, even among each other did not agree on the methods and methods of struggle, but how was it necessary? like a hundred years later - peace to the peoples! land to the peasants! factories to the workers! bread to the hungry! power to the Soviets! And that's how it should have been.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 27 January 2021 05: 36
      +15
      Where are they - and where are the people.
      The word "people" is a classic sign. No more.
      Filatov did not miss to note:

      “I smear a sandwich in the morning.
      Immediately thought: but as a people.
      And the caviar does not go down the throat.
      And the compote does not pour into your mouth. "

      Maybe, too, think about the people while drinking tea?
      Where to start with?
      At this time - probably from the Far East.
      Exactly. For the next 5 minutes I will think about the Khabarovsk people.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 27 January 2021 07: 00
        +7
        Quote: Korsar4
        Maybe, too, think about the people while drinking tea?
        Where to start with?
        At this time - probably from the Far East.
        Exactly. For the next 5 minutes I will think about the Khabarovsk people.

        I always celebrate the New Year like that! As they said before, under historical materialism - New Year is marching across the country!
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 27 January 2021 07: 07
          +10
          Until you start from Kamchatka to Baltiysk, you may not get there.
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 27 January 2021 07: 46
            +7
            Quote: Korsar4
            Until you start from Kamchatka to Baltiysk, you may not get there

            It gets harder and harder every year. This year, only Muscovites called and fell down.
      2. tank66
        tank66 27 January 2021 08: 28
        +8
        hi you should start with Sakhalin, they are the first to meet the dawn.
        1. depressant
          depressant 27 January 2021 11: 02
          +12
          And I phoned my friends from Krasnodar. Officials took away nine out of ten businesses in 2020. The tenth was not taken away because the relative is an official of the mayor's office.
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 27 January 2021 15: 05
          +4
          Exactly. And Shaov sings:
          "Part of the sushi mega-holding" Mother Russia "
          Crawling forward into the night Kuriles.
      3. Fat
        Fat 28 January 2021 03: 15
        +2
        hi All the same, you, Sergey, master good I already shed a tear crying
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 January 2021 07: 10
          +2
          Conversational genre?
          If, honestly, sometimes yes.

          But there is still room for improvement.
    2. zenion
      zenion 27 January 2021 16: 42
      +2
      This is what Academician Tarle, a historian, wrote about Napoleon. If he remained a general, Russia would have won. But after becoming emperor, he became at the level of those with whom he fought and could not turn to the people, as he did in other countries.
  • Boris55
    Boris55 27 January 2021 08: 48
    +5
    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    equality of all citizens before the law

    Do all citizens take part in the drafting of the Laws or only the "literate" ones?
    Does anyone really think that they can offend themselves loved ones? laughing

    The law is necessary and must be observed, but the basis of the law must be the consent of all citizens. Tell me that citizens are illiterate? Yes, but are they to blame for this? No. Why? Because for those who write laws, it is beneficial to keep the people in the dark, while condemning that not knowing the law does not exempt from responsibility, but in vain. If we want the law to be observed, everyone should know it, as the traffic rules ...

    Something carried me there in the morning ... laughing
    1. depressant
      depressant 27 January 2021 11: 15
      +7
      No, you are not carried away, colleague. You are all right. And since now everyone is literate, at least they can read and write, no one initiates a broad and many months long discussion of laws important for the population. In the Duma behind the scenes, passions are boiling between the insolently grinning majority and the pitiful handful of "renegades". Those passions will boil, and then quietly and in an amazing way, under the clink of New Year's glasses, some hellish law is adopted. And so that the population does not know about him longer, does not realize what is in store for him, does not cry out in anger, passions are initiated for the Gelendzhik palace, which I, for example, learned about right after Lyoshik was sent to the cereus "treatment" in Germany. Domestic policy is now being made to fool the population. At the time of Pestel and Muravyov, the population at least knew the true state of affairs, albeit not knowing how it should actually be.
      1. kalibr
        27 January 2021 16: 48
        +5
        Quote: depressant
        At the time of Pestel and Muravyov, the population at least knew the true state of affairs, albeit not knowing how it should actually be.

        It knew nothing at all. And he lived ONLY BY RUMORS! Believe me! An example from the movie, but ... "I'm for!" - Arap from the White Arapia is waging war against us. Milien leads the army. And so it was!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 January 2021 17: 42
          +3
          Exactly!
          "The master will come,
          The master will judge us! " (FROM)
          And later:
          "And Lenin, who is he for? For the Reds and for the Bolsheviks?" (FROM)
          1. kalibr
            27 January 2021 17: 55
            +5
            I read a work about rumors in the life of the Russian peasantry in the 19th century - just darkness and horror. For example, that for the sake of the accession to the throne of Nicholas II, since he has a German wife, and to the joy of the German emperor (?), All villages in several provinces will be burned and, of course, they were called.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 January 2021 18: 04
              +4
              And after all, nothing changed in the next 100 years! The layman believes in what the media impose.
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 27 January 2021 20: 09
            +4
            Not certainly in that way. :
            -Vasil Ivanovich, are you for the communists or the Bolsheviks?
            -I'm for the International "
    2. sniperino
      sniperino 27 January 2021 13: 58
      +1
      Quote: Boris55
      The law is necessary and must be observed, but the basis of the law must be the consent of all citizens.
      Do you give a referendum on traffic rules? Although, get consent all citizens and here it is problematic: the Far East will insist on left-hand traffic, probably, because I rarely saw left-hand drive cars in Vladik and in the 90s.
      1. depressant
        depressant 27 January 2021 15: 21
        +4
        In your words, colleague, it was necessary to "Give a referendum on the law
        N 494-fz! "- the one that was adopted on December 30, 2020.
        "Laws on traffic rules", such as a ban on parking commercial vehicles near apartment buildings, a new procedure for an exam for a driver's license, fixing a vehicle inspection on a photo with subsequent storage in an automated information system, increasing recycling fees, using shokers from traffic police, other new rules were adopted at the end of December 2019 and were consistently introduced in 2020.
        And on 494-FZ, which is especially important for every citizen, it was not a referendum that should have been held, but a broad, many-month discussion of all the pros and cons.
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 27 January 2021 16: 46
          +4
          "broad discussion for many months" Lyudmila Yakovlevna, this is only outwardly attractive: "broad discussion", but it is very difficult to come to a common opinion. Let me give you the simplest example: my husband and I had completely different tastes. At one time I tried to make concessions, even though my mother-in-law scolded me: "you want to be hungry. He will not appreciate (she loved me like a daughter)" Then I got tired of starving and willy-nilly I had to look for a compromise. And yet, deep down, we were not happy. And there are too many parties involved.
          1. depressant
            depressant 27 January 2021 17: 06
            +2
            Faith, the law I'm talking about, is not a taste. As a result of its application, any of us can be thrown out of housing of any type with compensation at the BTI rate, that is, beggarly, and end up on the street. When the enforcement of this law begins, and it gradually begins, then when the renovator Khusnullin expands its activities, and the officials, having got a taste and feeling impunity, become more active, it will be too late to protest. Actually, it's too late. We were thrown, everyone.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 28 January 2021 09: 34
              +1
              Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you interested me. If possible, the essence of the law.
              And yet, are you a lawyer by profession?
              R.
              S
              Bureaucratic arbitrariness will intensify, and Zyuganov is to blame for this, if he were a consistent Leninist, and not a “social compromiser,” remember Lenin's definition? My grandmother said that Zyuganov is not a communist, but a right-wing social democrat
              1. depressant
                depressant 28 January 2021 10: 09
                +3
                I am an engineer-physicist. The assessment of the law I am talking about has already been given by professional lawyers.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 09: 11
    +6
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you for your work. After yesterday's boredom, the author's colleagues were able to tell much more, it's nice to read an intelligent person
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 12: 20
      +8
      After yesterday's boredom, colleagues were able to tell much more of the author, it's nice to read an intelligent person

      Vera, you just read something wrong yesterday. love While everyone was arguing under that "an article, the author of which is not indicated", we all chatted peacefully under the article of the esteemed Sergei-Bubalik. drinks
      I was interested in Muravyov's project:
      The highest executive power in the renewed Russia was to belong to the emperor, as before, and this "knowledge" was still established by hereditary.

      I wonder why then the post of regicide was introduced? And who should have inherited the power?
      Or Muravyov, "whitewashing the constitution" in the basements of Petropavlovka, modestly omitted this aspect ... Just in case. And then, you never know .. the king will be offended by chance! repeat
      As far as I remember, from this surname there were two representatives who were involved in societies, but who did not incur punishment, and who later became prominent military figures - Muravyov-Karsky (left memories) and Muravyov-Vilensky (aka "Muravyov-Hanging", as later lovingly he was named by the noblemen).
      Muravyov-Vilensky:
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 27 January 2021 15: 48
        +4
        "they just read the wrong thing" I read the title and thought it was Roman, but his topics are boring to me, only the history of the kitchen is a little bit interesting.
        If the author's surname was indicated, it would be convenient.
        When I was AiCh it was easy for me. So it's easy for me to recognize Valery now.
        I'll be frank. : I want to read materials interesting to ME, and if there is none. I can watch a movie on YouTube or read a love story novel. Benzoni writes very well
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 15: 53
          +3
          If the author's surname was indicated, it would be convenient.

          The last name was not indicated only in yesterday's article about a household item. laughing
          I'll be frank. : I want to read materials interesting to ME, and if there is none.

          Yes, this is an absolutely normal desire! love
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 27 January 2021 20: 02
          +3
          Astra, if the author is indicated in advance. Do you know what will happen? Some authors will have to read themselves and write reviews
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 28 January 2021 07: 53
            +2
            I think I know who
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 27 January 2021 16: 08
        +3
        "Muravyov" broadcaster "- the brother of Muravyov-" Amursky "?
        And who were they to the Muravyov-Apostles.? When I read history, I always think: Muravyovs and Muravyovs Apostles, Kutuzovs and Golenishchevs Kutuzovs, were they relatives or namesakes?
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 16: 13
          +3
          "Muravyov" broadcaster "- the brother of Muravyov-" Amursky "?

          No, Muravyov-Karsky. Which Kars took during the Crimean War. But their older brother Alexander was convicted of participation in society, although he got off relatively easily.
          Muravyovs and Muravyovs Apostles, Kutuzovs and Golenischevs Kutuzovs

          These are noble families that split into various branches. In fact, namesakes were usually distant or fairly close relatives.
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 28 January 2021 07: 57
            +1
            So Amurskiy and the broadcaster are relatives?
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 09: 41
              0
              So "Amursky" and "broadcaster" are relatives

              Most likely - distant.
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 10: 04
              +1
              So Amurskiy and the broadcaster are relatives?

              I looked at Wikipedia. They are not just distant - they are further relatives. There, even before the 18th century, the descendants of Ivan Ant divided into three branches. hi
              1. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 29 January 2021 09: 26
                +1
                Very confusing pedigree
              2. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 29 January 2021 09: 39
                +1
                Nikolay, true or not, but Muravyov-Amursky is credited with the phrase: "I am not one of those Muravyovs who hang. I am one of those Muravyevs who hang."
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 11: 16
                  +2
                  Nikolay, true or not, but Muravyov-Amursky is credited with the phrase: "I am not one of those Muravyovs who hang. I am one of those Muravyevs who hang."

                  This phrase is attributed to Muravyov-Vilensky.
                  Here is an interesting article:
                  https://www.livejournal.com/media/737563.html
                  In the 1830s, Muravyov-Vilensky served as governor of Grodno, and at one of the public events local Polish gentry, wishing to pry Mikhail Nikolaevich, asked him: "Are you a relative of that Muravyov who was hanged for rebellion against the Tsar?" (referring to S.I.Muravyov-Apostol, sentenced in 1826 to capital punishment for organizing the Decembrist revolt). Known for his wit, Muravyov replied: "I am not one of those Muravyovs who hang, I am one of those who hang themselves." After this incident, all of the count's ill-wishers began to call him "the hangman".

                  Muravyov defended his phrase in 1863, during the last Polish uprising. Toughly put things in order. He hung mainly ringleaders and "daggers" - murderers who were sent to deal with dissenters and keep them at bay. In general, the clairvoyants were still those "gifts". negative

                  Let's clarify the situation a little. The publicity of the execution was to emphasize the determination of the authorities to stop sedition in the region. Prior to this, local Poles did not believe that the authorities would show sufficient will to suppress the rebellion. So, one of the main leaders of the rebels, Serakovsky (whom they are trying to portray as a courageous hero), having learned that a court-martial was awaiting him, pretended to be crazy, complained of hallucinations and fever, endlessly demanded doctors and examinations. And when it became obvious that he could not escape punishment, he hinted at his connections in the highest European circles, threatened with the wrath of the West. The last thing he did: threw a tantrum on the scaffold.

                  But our liberal community, as usual, accused the honest general of all sins .. Well .. it was not them who were killed by daggers! And from a warm sofa it is very convenient to be "the honor and conscience of the nation" ... negative
                  Caricature on Muravyov-Vilensky:
                  1. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 29 January 2021 13: 37
                    +1
                    How simplified we knew the story. Thanks a lot for the story
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 14: 10
                      +2
                      How simplified we knew the story.

                      Exactly what. Very simplistic. And everything was much more interesting. If I'm lazy, my favorite pastime is to read Wikipedia. It's easy to follow the links from one article to another. Very broadening horizons, to be honest.
                      Thanks a lot for the story

                      It's nice to tell good people for good people. love The main thing is that a jealous minstrel with a domra does not come running and poke me over! laughing I'm talking about Anton! drinks
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 09: 41
    +10
    Colleagues, hello. I am now pondering the projects: Pestel and Muravyov. Some provisions seem very interesting to me.
    Pestel's version is more thought out and some provisions are relevant today
    1) "the government is the property of the people, and it was established for the good of the people, and the people do not exist for the good of the government" I would write these words in huge letters and hang them at the entrance to the Council of Ministers and in front of the president's office. Let them read every day and do not forget.
    2) the "private good of the region" is not as important as the "good of the whole state"
    1. kalibr
      27 January 2021 10: 11
      +9
      Quote: Astra wild2
      "the government is the property of the people, and it was established for the good of the people, and not the people exist for the good of the government"

      Yeah, you can’t say better.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 January 2021 11: 44
        +7
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Astra wild2
        "the government is the property of the people, and it was established for the good of the people, and not the people exist for the good of the government"

        Yeah, you can’t say better.

        Already passed!
        Division of internal affairs bodies until 2011 "Serving the law, serving the people"!
        Today - "Serving the law, serving Russia."
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 January 2021 12: 22
          +6
          to 2011
          It seemed to me that the reform of the Ministry of Internal Affairs began a little earlier ...
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 12: 29
            +8
            It seemed to me that the reform of the Ministry of Internal Affairs began a little earlier ...

            Renamed in 2011.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 January 2021 12: 44
              +6
              In 2010 I saw cars labeled "police".
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 13: 08
                +6
                In 2010 I saw cars labeled "police".

                Anton, most likely, you are confusing. drinks
                On March 1, 2011, the Police Law came into force
                They started talking about it tightly in 2008. EMNIP, preparatory work began in 2009. This is me, from memory ...
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 27 January 2021 13: 19
                  +6
                  No, I don't. I saw it in Saratov in 2010. I was surprised myself.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 13: 29
                    +8
                    I saw it in Saratov in 2010. I was surprised myself.

                    No idea. Perhaps they decided to surpass the five-year plan in three years.
                    I remember fifteen years ago I was surprised when at the Baltic station I saw a tattered "Lada-four" with the inscription "Cossack patrol", from which two skinny peasants in berets and with knives on their belts emerged. That's when my surprise really took place. laughing I did not want to offend the hereditary Cossacks at all! drinks including Albert ... lol drinks
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 14: 20
                      +5
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      when at the Baltic station I saw a tattered "Zhiguli-four" with the inscription "Cossack patrol", from which two skinny peasants in berets and with knives on their belts emerged.

                      Good afternoon Nikolai,
                      Well, what are you: these are the world-famous "Leningrad" Cossacks of the Ladoga estuaries, distinguished by their exceptional ferocity in linguistic battles over the "curb" wassat
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 27 January 2021 14: 33
                        +6
                        Led by Ataman Rosenbaum.
                        Sergei! hi
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 41
                        +5
                        Led by Ataman Rosenbaum.

                        And whoever will say the "curb" - pour the whip on the "apples in the snow"! angry Laughter laughter, but we had a teacher in the early 2000s - a retired police colonel and at the same time a major general of the Cossack troops! soldier
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 27 January 2021 14: 46
                        +3
                        retired police colonel and at the same time major general of the Cossack troops!
                        Vlad will have to suggest this idea! laughing
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 50
                        +3
                        Vlad will have to suggest this idea!

                        We simultaneously wrote comments mentioning Vlad! laughing mine is below.
                    2. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 14: 49
                      +6
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      And who will "curb" speak

                      My wife beats me for it wassat
                    3. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 53
                      +5
                      My wife beats me for it

                      She, like a true patriot of Peter, domesticates you! wink Himself, father, it is his own fault! drinks
                    4. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 14: 54
                      +4
                      Quote: Pan Kohanku
                      My wife beats me for it

                      She, like a true patriot of Peter, domesticates you! wink Himself, father, it is his own fault! drinks

                      I'm trying: I've already learned the word badlon drinks
                    5. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 59
                      +6
                      I'm trying: I've already learned the word badlon

                      So you are making progress! drinks And then, you know ... In general, beware of St. Petersburg history lovers and, at the same time, local historians! laughing
                    6. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 15: 08
                      +4
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      and, at the same time, local historians

                      and at the same time bears wassat
                    7. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 15: 10
                      +5
                      and at the same time bears

                      And bears! Poo-poo-pidu! repeat
                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 16: 24
                  +3
                  badlon

                  By the way, already out of fashion. More and more they say - "turtleneck". wink
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 January 2021 15: 04
              +5
              Objection !!! Give linguistic equality to those who come in large numbers!
            3. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 27 January 2021 15: 07
              +5
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Objection !!! Give linguistic equality to those who come in large numbers!

              I support: you can't just jump off the "curb" drinks
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 January 2021 15: 09
              +6
              I agree, it all depends on the clearance. laughing
            5. Fat
              Fat 28 January 2021 03: 42
              +4
              A good friend of mine killed a fresh porsche on a curb. Probably thinking about how "this is right" ... The curb is the curb, and the clearance is the clearance. And if the curb and the clearance? So you will become a "curb" here to swear laughing
            6. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 11: 37
              +2
              Curb - curb, and clearance - clearance.

              We have one magical place on the Mitrofanevskoe highway (St. Petersburg). wink You can turn around there, but there is not enough width to turn in one step. And a high curb. In general, once I broke the bumper on the Logan. Six months later, in the same place (!), My brother Lelik broke the bumper on his "Logan". laughing
        2. bubalik
          bubalik 27 January 2021 16: 06
          +8
          And strive hens by viaductjumping through curb в front, to the crumbs rolls.
        3. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 27 January 2021 16: 08
          +7
          Quote: bubalik
          And the chickens aim

          My wife resolutely rejects that "kura" is a St. Petersburg word, claims that she had never heard it before and that it was brought in large numbers.
        4. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 January 2021 16: 14
          +5
          More: shawarma and stall.
        5. bubalik
          bubalik 27 January 2021 16: 19
          +5

          3x3zsave
          Today,

          We also call a stall, and also a chip.
        6. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 16: 20
          +6
          shaverma

          So yes, the word "shawarma" sickens me, sir. No. But we ate shawarma in the morning, on the way to work ... good
        7. bubalik
          bubalik 27 January 2021 16: 39
          +7

          Pane Kohanku
          Today,


          "Did this Shawarma meow or bark before?" - "She asked me all sorts of garbage before!" tongue
  • zenion
    zenion 27 January 2021 16: 57
    0
    You did not accidentally confuse the police of the times of Hitler and the SS troops. It could have been easy there. There could easily be a police lieutenant and SS Sturmbannführer.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 17: 25
    +3
    You didn't confuse the police

    I have not confused. hi It's just that, apparently, the person, being retired, took up social activities.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 31 January 2021 00: 39
    0
    A police lieutenant could not be a Sturmbannführer, only an Untersturmführer.
    And the SS Sturmbannfuehrer was at the same time a major in the police and feljandarmerie. soldier
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 17: 17
    +3
    "Cossack troops", and who approved it? I can also call myself a chieftain or chieftain
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 17: 27
    +2
    I can also call myself a chieftain or chieftain

    Vera, you first have to join the Cossacks! wink do you think the hat will suit you? winked
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 January 2021 08: 39
    +1
    Nikolay, the local Cossacks have round "Kubank" hats
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 27 January 2021 14: 36
    +9
    Quote: Pan Kohanku

    No idea. Perhaps they decided to surpass the five-year plan in three years.
    I remember fifteen years ago I was surprised when at the Baltic station I saw a tattered "Lada-four" with the inscription "Cossack patrol", from which two skinny peasants in berets and with knives on their belts emerged. That's when my surprise really took place. laughing I did not want to offend the hereditary Cossacks at all! drinks including Albert ... lol drinks

    Hi, Nikolay! hi
    Probably it was a chop
    In the Krasnodar Territory, the Cossacks, incl. quite strong, not bad, in the style of 1916, dressed (hats, short caftans, kirzachi), patrolling the streets of Sobachkina Capital along with the police. ))
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 47
      +7
      In the Krasnodar Territory, the Cossacks, incl. pretty strong

      Albert, hello! I have such a concern - as I remember you, that's how you appear! drinks Krasnodar Territory - of course, this is a historical area of ​​settlement. yes In St. Petersburg, from the point of view of history, it will be easier to believe in the Life Guards Finnish Rifle Battalion than in the Cossacks! request
      The Finnish guards riflemen, by the way, are almost the only part of the Russian army that was completely rearmed with rifled fittings even before the Crimean War! 1850s, wikipedia:

      I saw the same picture in the Pskov-Pechersky monastery (on the border with free Estonia). There, the rest of the brothers and lords are also guarded by Cossacks with stripes and hats. fellow But Vlad explained to me in a popular way - these are registered Cossacks. Although, in fact, probably - the same private security company. soldier
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 27 January 2021 14: 52
      +7
      As my late great-grandfather said, Budyonny also chopped the real Cossacks))
    3. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 14: 57
      +4
      real Cossacks even Budyonny chopped

      God knows ... I think the real ones in the Red Square at the Victory Parade passed! drinks as you understand, if the war had taken a different turn, there could have passed the "Cossacks" from Shkuro and Pannwitz ... negative
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 17: 24
    +3
    "Registered Cossacks", and what's the difference registered or not?
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 16: 51
    +4
    Nikolay, thanks for having fun
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 17: 29
      +2
      Nikolay, thanks for having fun

      If your sweet-voiced minstrel will not be jealous - please, I'll have some more fun! wink
      "Registered Cossacks", and what's the difference registered or not?

      Vlad (Kokhankin the Cat) knows. He will come and explain. drinks
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 January 2021 17: 48
      +2
      will not be jealous
      Necessarily will! am
    3. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 17: 50
      +3
      Necessarily will!

      Well, here comes ... the virtuoso minnesinger ... recourse now he will get a lute, and I will be otmandolinite ... wink drinks everything, everything, I say nothing, I just made fun! belay
    4. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 January 2021 17: 52
      +3
      "Don't be afraid, silly thing!" (FROM)
    5. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 17: 53
      +3
      "Don't be afraid, silly thing!"

      But now I'm really tense ... belay
    6. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 January 2021 18: 10
      +2
      Relax and try to have fun.
    7. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 09: 40
      +2
      Relax and try to have fun.

      "And you are gambling, Paramosha!" wink
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 January 2021 08: 36
    +2
    I am glad to be in the same company with you. You know how nice it is to read a friendly conversation, but when swearing starts, it's creepy
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 09: 40
    +1
    You know how nice it is to read a friendly conversation, but when swearing starts, it's creepy

    Vera, your gold-eyed guitarist writes to me such intricate things that it's easier to quarrel with him! laughing
    Glad to be in the same company with you

    The Leader of the Redskins expressed this best of all - they say, "in the history section, people seem to have gathered a nice tea to drink." drinks
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 29 January 2021 09: 33
    +1
    Actually, he is right: a friendly atmosphere prevails in the History section, but unfortunately there is also wild abuse here. However, this is the "merit" of certain authors
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 11: 05
    +1
    Actually, he is right: a friendly atmosphere prevails in the History section, but unfortunately there is also wild abuse here. However, this is the "merit" of certain authors

    I absolutely agree with you on all points! yes
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 29 January 2021 13: 38
    +1
    That's wonderful
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 14: 12
    +2
    That's wonderful

    The main thing is that we, as our company, have learned to respect and accept each other! drinks
  • bubalik
    bubalik 27 January 2021 15: 58
    +6
    In the village, all his life, the district police officer was called a "sergeant" behind his back. laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 31 January 2021 00: 40
      +1
      There is a nickname "Okolotochny" on the site.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 January 2021 12: 14
    +7
    You can say anything. That's just the Murphy-Parkinson laws, voiced a little later, this beautiful phrase does not cancel. And one of them expresses the idea (I don't remember the exact wording) that any social organization, the number of which exceeds 1000 people, becomes self-sufficient and begins to serve itself.
    1. Fat
      Fat 28 January 2021 03: 55
      +3
      Murphy was optimistic. - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's laws.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 27 January 2021 11: 38
    +6
    Here are just land plots not with the landowners, nor the Church Ants were not going to select.

    Did the church have any significant land after the secularization reform of 1764?
    The villagers, that is, the peasants, were supposed to allocate land plots in the amount of two acres for each peasant household.

    You can't say anything, generously.
    It would be extremely interesting to compare it with the Arakcheev project.
    Southern society openly recognized the army as its support and saw in it the decisive force of the revolutionary coup. The members of the Society planned to seize power in the capital, after which the tsar should be forced to abdicate. In accordance with the new goals, the organization of the Society also changed: now only military men were admitted to it, discipline within the Society was tightened;

    Military junta?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 January 2021 11: 55
      +8
      Military junta?
      Absolutely true!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 27 January 2021 17: 13
        +4
        "I don't know who this damned Junta is, but if he doesn't let Luis leave the carnival, I won't go to work tomorrow."
        (S. Vasya Ivanov, 7th grade locksmith from the Moscow plant "Stankolit")
        Hello Anton. hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 January 2021 17: 49
          +3
          I’ll take a walk.
          Did the 7th category exist?
          Hi Uncle Kostya!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 January 2021 17: 54
            +4
            Did the 7th category exist?


            But do not care, Vasya could have had the tenth. laughing

            "Who is that browed next to Vasya Ivanov standing on the podium?"
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 55
          +6
          Kostya, good evening. And what did the director say to Vasya Ivanov. Perhaps: "but won't you go to work and see the progress?"
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 January 2021 20: 22
            +5
            Hi Slava. We then all demanded to return Luis from the carnival and worried about Angela Davis. The director is no exception, he would try to go against the party line, which Vasya Ivanov personified. laughing

            "Got up early this morning,
            No Luis Carvalan
            There she is. there she is,
            The junta has worked "(c)
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 28 January 2021 07: 21
              +3
              “I watched the program in my delirium.
              All stood up for Angela Davis "(c).
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 28 January 2021 15: 25
                +2
                "Three TVs - twist-twirl" (c)
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 28 January 2021 16: 05
                  +2
                  “If you don’t respond,
                  We will write to Sport Lotto. (from).
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 28 January 2021 16: 29
                    +2
                    "One hundred villains are captured,
                    And Magomayev sings in KVN "(c)

                    And after all, how talented Vysotsky wrote, here it is written - "One hundred scoundrels", and it is immediately clear that we are talking about mercenaries somewhere in Africa. smile
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 28 January 2021 18: 39
                      +2
                      Chronicle songs. What Vysotsky, what Vizbor.

                      "Why did you sink the boat?" (from).
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 28 January 2021 19: 22
                        +2
                        Yes.
                        "The Soviet government sent a document
                        And brought rockets to the boobies,
                        And a huge monument was built off to the boat
                        Which all Adesa is proud of "(c)
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 January 2021 19: 27
                        +2
                        “As a mother I speak, and as a woman:
                        I demand them to answer! " (from).
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 28 January 2021 20: 09
                        +2
                        "Your mother, your mother was arrested" (c)

                        Opera based on Gorky "Mother". wassat
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 January 2021 20: 52
                        +2
                        Remained in the memory of people.
                        As well as "Let's cut off Maresyev's legs."


                        But Kolesnikov named a wonderful variety of lilacs after him.
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 28 January 2021 21: 48
                        +2
                        Well, that's right, there was a worthy man, instead of a binge he went to heaven again.))
                        But there were stupid operas, and then there were enough ballets. I remember the opera "October", when sailors and soldiers pull out a plywood armored car on the stage, on which, in a well-known pose with an outstretched hand, Arthur Reisen is standing and sings with a sort of lisp: "Come on, tovagischi, ahead, ahead, ahead on the shtugm!"
                        Starfucker, Hollywood is resting. I saw it all myself and heard it on TV. A shame, and they were not ashamed. But it was this opera that was quickly removed from the Bolshoi's repertoire, someone had enough intelligence.
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 January 2021 21: 57
                        +2
                        In our school they showed Matrosov to the embrasure. Then the director figured out that it was not aesthetically pleasing for Kolya Strokov.

                        Trend is a dangerous thing.
                      7. Catfish
                        Catfish 28 January 2021 23: 18
                        +2
                        Yes, we were so obsessively loaded with these patriotic examples that people, in self-defense, themselves began to turn the tragedy into a farce, an example with the same Matrosov - "Damned ice!"
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 January 2021 23: 41
                        +2
                        It is enough to read the page "Hot Snow". No pathos.

                        And the First World War, except for "Quiet Don" I will not even say in what fiction it was reflected.
                      9. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 14: 17
                        +3
                        And the First World War, except for "Quiet Don" I will not even say in what fiction it was reflected.

                        Reflected. But not in the Soviet Union. The émigré magazine "Chasovoy" published works about WWI. And artistic, in particular. The file can be found on the internet.
                        Here is a clipping about some school from it. Interested in the author's name - at the bottom right ... look, Sergei! wink

                        Well, fiction about WWI was written brightly and colorfully by Pyotr Krasnov. The one who was later pulled up together with Shkura and "dad Pannwitz" hi
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 29 January 2021 15: 43
                        +2
                        Reincarnation?
                      11. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 15: 50
                        +2
                        Reincarnation?

                        "So, start studying family portraits ..." wink True, I was mistaken - this is, apparently, not the author, but the addressee. hi
                        I must say that the article, EMNIP, is about the cadets-artillerymen. So, General Parsky, who in 1918 tried to frantically defend Yamburg (now Kingisepp) from the advancing Germans, wrote in his memoirs that one of his best units was an artillery battery with the same surname ... what Maybe this is it? request
                      12. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 29 January 2021 17: 50
                        +1
                        Nikolai, something I did not understand: "General Parsky in 1918 tried frantically to defend Yamburg" I did not hear anything for such a general. By the date 1918, I can assume: February 1918 the German offensive against Petrograd. Between 21 and 24 February, the first victories of the Red Guards were won. All i know
                      13. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 19: 18
                        +2
                        Between 21 and 24 February, the first victories of the Red Guards were won.

                        Looks like they were bookish, Vera. The greatest mess was going on in the country and in the army. what
                        And Parsky himself offered his knowledge and skills to the Soviet government. He was involved in the defense of Yamburg. He himself was shocked when, after the first shots of the Germans, the "beauty and pride of the revolution", led by their leader, scrambled. In a sense, the revolutionary sailors of the Baltic Fleet arrived there, having successfully dealt with their officers before. At the head of them was Dybenko - a loving bearded man and lover of the exalted Kollontai - she broke this post for him. We found a cistern of alcohol .. got drunk .. in the morning, discordantly went to attack the Germans. Those at first were surprised, then reluctantly gave a couple of volleys. repeat
                        The sailor rushed back, dragged her criminal leader into the train, and fled in the train all the way to Gatchina! And this is 60 kilometers, if not more. fellow Well, we must fight the Germans! It's not about the officers being cracked down on by the revolutionary crowd, here they can even kill ... negative
                        Parsky, who remained in Yamburg, himself did not know how to organize the rabble that he got. As a result, he was lucky - the Germans did not go further. And there they concocted the Brest Peace ... request
                        Parsky's notes can be found on the Internet.
                      14. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 29 January 2021 19: 47
                        +1
                        In fact, I’ve already met Dybenko on the site somewhere. He was a random person in the revolution.
                        But what about February 23? What does Parsky himself write?
                      15. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 20: 29
                        +1
                        He was a random person in the revolution.

                        No, Vera. He was not random, he was natural person in the revolution. Because "from below" the masses begin to direct those leaders who yell louder, and at the same time have some organizational ability. Semi-criminal education is encouraged. No.
                        This is how individuals appear who are now called "field commanders" in the press! hi And how many of them were on both sides ..... I will not list modern examples over the past 30 years - there are enough of them.
                        Here are Parsky's notes. Do not be surprised if you see the name of Shpakovsky:
                        http://www.grwar.ru/library/Mil-Collect-II/MCII_05.html
                        In general, about Yamburg itself there is my second article on the site. Read to your health! love
                        https://topwar.ru/119690-krepost-yam-gorod-kingisepp.html
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 29 January 2021 14: 26
            +2
            For the First World War, read only Remark.
          3. Korsar4
            Korsar4 29 January 2021 15: 44
            +2
            I have already said: “All Quiet on the Western Front” does not hurt much.
          4. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 16: 06
            +3
            For the First World War, read only Remark.

            And Hemingway? It seems that Henri Barbusse also wrote something about the First World War ...
          5. Catfish
            Catfish 29 January 2021 16: 44
            +1
            Hi Nikolay. I have a crush on Remarque since childhood. And Ham, what exactly about the first War?
          6. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 29 January 2021 19: 08
            +1
            And Ham, what exactly about the first War?

            "Farewell to arms!", Uncle Kostya. Once I started reading, then I quit .... Alas for me! recourse
          7. Catfish
            Catfish 29 January 2021 19: 56
            +1
            Honestly, I completely forgot this book, but I remember "Islands in the Ocean", about "Hooligan Patrol". drinks
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 January 2021 18: 07
        +2
        I liked "For Whom the Bell Toll". And "Farewell to Arms" is smaller.

        "The Old Man and the Sea" - from school in memory.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 29 January 2021 14: 35
    +3
    Quote: Korsar4
    I will not say in which fiction it was reflected.

    Sergeev-Tsensky immediately comes to mind.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 29 January 2021 15: 45
    +3
    Do not read. I'll take a note.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 29 January 2021 15: 52
    +3
    Likewise. Pikul wrote about the war in the Baltic, but trusting him is more expensive for himself.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 28 January 2021 12: 55
    +2
    I was a kid and I remember: on every corner: "Freedom to Angela Davis". I remember Corvalan too. In Moscow, there was also a ditty about Corvalan and the Hooligan. Do you remember her?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 28 January 2021 15: 22
      +2
      Of course I remember:
      "Traded the bully for Luis Carvalan,
      Where can I find such a b (unprintable) that would exchange for Lenya "(c)

      The bully, this is the dissident Bukovsky, I don’t know what he is famous for, he was never interested.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 28 January 2021 16: 37
        +3
        I was told in another edition:
        Krgo used to change to Lyalya
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 28 January 2021 16: 46
          +1
          And sho for Lyalya like that?
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 28 January 2021 16: 53
            +2
            "Dear, Leonid Ilyich")
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 28 January 2021 16: 55
              +1
              This is the first time I see Lenya being called that.))
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 28 January 2021 19: 49
              +1
              I heard this version around 1982.
              Perhaps someone did not hear the verse, or maybe they observed tolerance while writing down?
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 19: 01
    +4
    Colleagues, and in the metric system 2 tithes are equal to what?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 January 2021 19: 23
      +8
      Just over two hectares. If it was meant, the so-called "official" tithe.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 28 January 2021 07: 23
        +3
        109 acres and a little more.

        Easy to remember:

        60 to 40 or
        80 by 30 fathoms.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 28 January 2021 07: 28
          +3
          Well, I just remember that a tithe is roughly equal to a hectare.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 28 January 2021 07: 51
            +3
            Конечно.
            But one of the signs of old books.
            Or books about ancient times.

            So it’s not in vain that everyone measures on his own yardstick.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 January 2021 14: 19
    +7
    All questions were discussed at the table at lunches at N. Muravyov's or at breakfasts at Ryleev's, that is, business was combined with business.
    I wonder at whose expense these noble Carbonari were supposed to eat in the event of the success of the planned adventure?
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 14: 53
      +6
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      All questions were discussed at the table at lunches at N. Muravyov's or at breakfasts at Ryleev's, that is, business was combined with business.

      As I understand it, the tradition of "kitchen conversations" was not born in the Soviet Union? hi
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 January 2021 14: 57
        +5
        Yes, it has not been interrupted even now.
        "And today at lunch,
        Eating an entrecote
        We thought with Medved:
        To stir up something else? " (WITH)
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 15: 07
          +6
          We thought with Medved:

          Did you think of Jacobin? Correct the booklets! laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 January 2021 15: 14
            +4
            What kind of booklets does a minstrel have?
            You already, mister captain, keep in line with the legend invented by you.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 15: 19
              +5
              What kind of booklets does a minstrel have?

              One minstrel by the name of Igelshneitskhen entered fenrik somehow, even under Frederick the Great .. In general, by 1806 he was already a colonel! (I keep the legend!) wink yes, yes, he still wrote poetry - Queen Louise was crazy about them ... winked
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 27 January 2021 15: 13
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      noble Carbonari were supposed to eat

      Spaghetti carbonaro
      We ate the Carbonari ... hi
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 49
      +3
      At the expense of the former sovereign.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 10: 09
        +3
        At the expense of the former sovereign.

        When the pose-posture of the former sovereign was tapped with a snuffbox, the conspirators, in joy, ate themselves right in the Mikhailovsky Castle. Although they have already come to kill ... request
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 28 January 2021 12: 47
          +2
          Apparently, it seemed to them a little, but there was not enough money to add denig. Let's go to the Mikhailovsky Castle for more?
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 13: 23
            +2
            Let's go to the Mikhailovsky Castle for more?

            A few days later, the "winners", led by the Zubovs and Palen, arranged a festive banquet. The dishes used on it (absolutely not cheap!) Were tied into a tablecloth right on the table and thrown out of the window. Shikovali-feasted! request
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 28 January 2021 16: 52
              +3
              Probably Platon Zubov hoped to find a new "hollow" instead of Catherine.
              When I grew up and began to understand this, I was interested in this detail: how did he "get up" to the old woman? Then "Viagra" _ did not know yet.
              I have not tried it, my friend said: if "hung" you can "score" on all Viagra. I already have few "caps", but I try without chemistry
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 28 January 2021 17: 06
                +1
                Then "Viagra" _ did not know yet.

                For a very, very big money ... laughing and ours and yours and love and dance! wink drinks
                Pavel for the whole family and residence (with the army, servants and construction) received something either 120, or 200 thousand a year. Mama's favorite slimes received such a contribution only for new clothes ... request
                Probably Platon Zubov counted

                They, naive, thought edit yourself. laughing But mother Alexandra demanded that her son remove the parricides, and the young tsar suddenly showed firmness of character. stop All were expelled from the capital. Prince Yashvil (of the Georgian princes) during the War of 1812 tried to return to the army. When Alexander found out about this, he ordered him to be kicked back to the estate. angry Count Palen, one of the leaders of the conspiracy, until the end of his life on the evening of the date of the murder, got drunk to unconsciousness ... recourse
                Bennigsen finished the best! But Leonty Leontyevich in Russian history, perhaps, will still remain not a heroic, but an ominous figure ... what And yet, yes - none of them repented!
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 28 January 2021 19: 42
                  +2
                  In fact, they miscalculated this fact. Palen hung around for a while at court.
                  And Benegssen is really some kind of muddy guy.
    4. Catfish
      Catfish 28 January 2021 16: 47
      +1
      For whose and now eat. laughing
  • BAI
    BAI 27 January 2021 15: 56
    +6
    The constitutions of the Decembrists will be more democratic than Ushakov's constitution for the Ionian Islands.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 January 2021 16: 00
      +5
      Ushakov's constitution for the Ionian Islands.

      A monument was erected to him in Zakynthos. I was there, but I didn't see the monument, and I didn't take a picture! recourse it's a pity!
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 27 January 2021 18: 58
    +3
    "the supreme executive power the Sovereign Duma of five people" 5 different characters and intellects. Outwardly it is attractive, but I work in a female team and I know how difficult it can be to find mutual understanding. By the way, if there is no interesting material tomorrow, we will discuss it. Today was not up to Vyachik (Vyacheslav Olegovich, do not be offended, but we call you by name)
    Р
    S
    We already. 3. Months together we discuss interesting materials. We work together and naturally communicate. Different ages, political interests. Young people do not care what is sacred to me, but the site has a lot of interesting things. We are cunning
    1. kalibr
      27 January 2021 21: 15
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild2
      By the way, if there is no interesting material tomorrow,

      Will be. There are 6 of them on moderation ...
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 28 January 2021 07: 51
        +1
        It is very good
  • dgonni
    dgonni 27 January 2021 19: 13
    +2
    If translated into Marxist theory. That is the meeting of the archaic with civilization. Even with the victory of the archaic. Leads to a change in archaic power or unrest.
    That is why Rome fell. It was after the victory of the great war of 1812-14 that the Decembrists came.
    That is why Stalin could not jail Zhukov for insanity in 45-46 years. And that is why Stalin wrote in his keynote speech when we reach and surpass the standard of living in Western countries, we will open the borders!
    It was like an answer to a question behind the Iron Curtain.
    For he really understood what a meeting of the archaic with the civilized world is!
    In this regard, he was completely right!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 27 January 2021 19: 47
    +6
    Good evening comrades. It is a pity that the reading did not work out during the day. I turned on the site, but I didn't go to the History section. I climbed around the bush. I already wanted to offer 100_grams but did not know to whom. And it will be like in a joke
    To lime cockroaches it is necessary: ​​"give on the paw."
    If you give the head of the epidemiological station. He personally interrupts them, and if Dash is cockroaches. Then from all houses they will run to you
  • vladcub
    vladcub 27 January 2021 21: 11
    +2
    Comrades, I looked at the version of Pestel and Muravyov. The Decembrists would have succeeded in figs. Let's say they forced Alexander 1 to abdicate or something else. And then what and how will govern the country?
    The northerners did not like and were afraid of Pestel. He could seize power and then it would be "fun". After all, in the FUTURE he planned to introduce veche and prch, but for now who will manage? By the way, V.O. lost sight of the fact that Pastel actually wanted to build a police state. He had projects to create "guards" something in between with the guardsmen of Grozny and the Russian Guard.
    In any case, what kind of success can we talk about if there were cardinal differences in the two societies?
    PS.
    Perhaps Muravyov, in his latest edition of the Constitution, suggested: "a shadow on the slab" that the commission did not consider him a dangerous troublemaker
  • vladcub
    vladcub 27 January 2021 21: 20
    +2
    Quote: bubalik
    In the village, all his life, the district police officer was called a "sergeant" behind his back. laughing

    We didn't say that. For the eyes of the district police officer's name: "toad, tick" or by nickname, and whoever was loved could be by patronymic or by name. Respected by patronymic, who is good, but earning love and respect - by name. Usually young
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 28 January 2021 12: 12
      +3
      Our district police officers, and all of them, were called for some reason exclusively by their last name. True, there was an exception - at one time such a young, thin boy appeared, as everyone called him "little boy". smile "Let's go to the boy", "Call the boy", "Now the boy will come", etc. But he did not serve for long with us ...
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 14 2021 14: 37
    0
    The Decembrists themselves were worthy people.
    But there is no need to seriously talk about the practical implementation of their lying ideas.
    Not even a utopia, but a dystopia.
    And to take Novgorod with its veche as a model ... such a model will not work in such a huge country. Even in its deliberately idealized form (in reality, Novgorod was no more democratic than republican Rome with its estate system).
    All this "democracy" is suitable for small spaces, for local government, no more.
    The neighbors of the gentry tried to play in the "republic", brought the country to the point that they began to divide it like a cake at a name day.