Military Review

Combat aircraft. Loser in everything

75
And how well it all started ...


Combat aircraft. Loser in everything

No, in general it all started with the understanding that everything was bad. Moreover, it started badly at the very beginning of the Second World War, when there was nothing to respond to the night flights of the herds of British bombers except anti-aircraft guns. The Luftwaffe did not have specialized night fighter-interceptors. There were, however, night fighters, which were made according to the leftover principle from obsolete Dornier bombers of the 15th and 17th series.

And then the British got a very fast and very wooden "Mosquito", cheap and not so good for the radars of that time. Which really started to cause such trouble that the Luftwaffe began to understand that something had to be done.

But until the appearance of "Mosquito" in the Luftwaffe belonged to the raids of the British aviation give a damn. The command sat in the bunkers, which were not afraid of the British bombs, and the population could be ...

"Not a single bomb will fall on the capital of the Reich" - this phrase was recalled to Goering until his death and even after it. They fell. And not only British and American, but also Soviet in 1941, which was quite humiliating.

But that was in 1941, and at the beginning of the war in the Luftwaffe, everyone was in complete confidence that the tactics of the blitzkrieg would make it possible to do without expensive gizmos such as heavy bombers and night fighters.

What was created by the titanic efforts of Colonel Kammhuber, could only be called night forces by such an optimist as Goering.


Josef Kammhuber

The night forces of the Luftwaffe, formed on the basis of the leftover principle, of course, began to pose a certain danger to British bombers, but if impartially, then exclusively due to the disgusting training of British pilots and weak weapons. Well, the German pilots did evolve.

And the tactics of the British Air Force were simple: the planes took off and flew long gut across Germany. Just spot, just catch up and intercept. That is why everyone in the Luftwaffe was happy with the fact that night fighters appeared by reworking outright junk such as Bf.110, Do.17, Do.215 and the first types of Ju-88.


Kammhuber was against this approach, but Goering was not impressed by his arguments. Why design a specialized night fighter when everything is going well anyway? Moreover, the German industry was already barely able to cope with the production of aircraft, which were lost on the Eastern Front in staggering quantities ...

And then some kind of night fighters ... Kammhuber was not lucky, the Reich Aviation Minister Udet was against the diversion of funds for "night lights", and his successor Milch too.

Well, the British quietly built four-engine bombers, and as a result, very unpleasant things began: the "Kammhuber line", his brainchild, Germany's night air defense, consisting of early warning radars, searchlight fields and anti-aircraft batteries, night fighters that were guided by radar stations - all this turned out to be unable to resist those armadas that began to appear in the sky of the Reich.

More than a thousand bombers, which on May 31, 1942, flew into Cologne, calmly did their job, and the night air defense, in general, could not oppose such a number of aircraft. 41 British aircraft, which were shot down by the combined efforts of pilots and anti-aircraft gunners, is about nothing.


It was only then that everyone in the Luftwaffe realized that something had to be done. Yes, fighters were slowly being made for parts of the Kammhuber department, they were equipped with novelties such as Q-tubes, which caught infrared radiation from the exhaust, work was underway to install radars on "night lights". It was even said that before the appearance of new specialized vehicles, the Ju.88C was supposed to take over the role of a single night fighter.

When the Cologne bell rang out loudly, everyone in the Luftwaffe ran in search of a solution to the problem. Because everyone understood perfectly well that Cologne was just the beginning.

And they gave aviation firms assignments to develop a night fighter.

"No, well, you give ..." - answered the firms. The war was in full swing, and no one wanted to be distracted by a new project either.

“The party said - it is necessary! Who didn't understand? " Everyone understood, and work began to boil at Junkers, Focke-Wulf and Heinkel.

In fact, the Junkers took the Ju.188 project and based it on the Ju.188R night fighter. "Heinkel" extracted the project P.1060 from the archive, but everything turned out very well, turning into He.219, which we wrote about and which turned out to be just a wonderful aircraft.


By that time, the Focke-Wulf had a project of a certain analogue of the Mosquito, which Kurt Tank offered to the Ministry as a light bomber. The plane had to be wooden, so as not to burden the industry with the waste of strategic materials. This was very welcome.

In general, the success of the "Mosquito" actually gave rise to a personality cult of this aircraft. Milch decided that the Germans simply had to create something similar, but with better characteristics. Anti-Mosquito.

And then the project turned up Tank, and even based on wood, like "Mosquito". Moreover, the Germans mastered the production of Tego-Leim phenolic resin-based glue, which seemed to be not inferior in quality to the Araldite epoxy glue, which was used to glue parts of the Mosquito.

And the Ministry made a decision that the night fighter will be two-seat and twin-engined, in the long term - all-weather. He was supposed to fly for almost three hours in loitering mode. Armament was expected from four 30-mm guns, or two 30-mm and two 20-mm.


And naturally, the plane was needed yesterday. More precisely, the tests had to start in July 1943. Development started in September 1942.

Most interestingly, the Focke-Wulf designers converted the bomber into a night fighter in two weeks. Moreover, Tank's engineers even proposed two projects: one- and two-seater aircraft.

The glider met all the requirements and consisted of 57% wood, 30% steel, and only 13% were aluminum alloys and other scarce materials. Everyone at the Ministry liked everything, and Focke-Wulf received a development contract, with the order given top priority.


The aircraft project received the Ta.154 index. The design of the Ta.154 was supervised by senior engineer Ernst Nipp, assisted by chief engineer Ludwig Mittelhuder, chief aerodynamicist Gottold Matthias and enforcer Herbert Wolft.

Nipp and his team made many changes to the original design. The designers soon moved from the midplane to the high-wing. A crew of two was placed in front of one another under a single canopy. Single-fin, vertical tail was made at the same time with the fuselage, and horizontal - cantilever. The main landing gear was retracted into the engine nacelles, and instead of the tail wheel, they decided to use a nose support.


The liquid-cooled Junkers Jumo211F engines developed 1 hp at takeoff. were considered quite reliable.

Plastics began to be widely used in the assembly of prototypes. Where wood could not be used, the materials Lignofol L90 or Dynal Z5 were used, which had a modulus of elasticity close to wood.

Problems came suddenly and not from where they expected. Not worse than a cruiser, the plane began to gain weight following the implementation of all the "Wishlist" of the Luftwaffe. Even replacing the wood with plastics did not help. The engines had to be changed, because 1 hp. it was clearly not enough.

However, calculations showed that even 1 hp. the Jumo.500N engine was also lacking. The only engine that seemed to solve the problem of a heavier aircraft was the Jumo.211 with a capacity of 213 hp, but the 1 had not even completed the test cycle and there was no point in talking about installing it on a new aircraft.

Therefore, the following move was made: the car was lightened as much as possible and the Jumo.211F, with a capacity of 1 hp, was installed, on which the Ta.340 made its first flight on July 154, 1. Even two weeks ahead of the RLM deadline.


The first flight took place in the presence of Tank. The plane was piloted by the Focke-Wulf test aircraft, Hans Sander, and engineer Walter Schorn was in the operator's place. The flight was somewhat crumpled, because at first the plane began to roll to the left side. But the roll was removed with the help of trim tabs. Then the front landing gear did not retract, and then the entire landing gear retraction system failed. I had to release everything in an emergency.

However, the flight lasted for about an hour and ended without an accident. The flaws were removed and the Tank itself piloted the Ta.154 on one of the flights.


Tank and Zander noted little stick effort comparable to the FW.190, good rudder performance, and the balance of the entire vehicle in different flight modes. There were, of course, drawbacks, the main of which was a problem with the hydraulic system. Kurt Tank even completed his flight ahead of schedule precisely because the hydraulic system on the plane again failed.

There were other problems and shortcomings, but there were no critical ones. Everything was removable.

During tests, the aircraft showed a very good speed for a twin-engine fighter of 626 km / h. Do not forget that the engines were "only" 1 hp. This is the speed that was recorded in the official reports. And then some write about 340 km / h and even higher!
One of the prototypes was equipped with flame arresters for covert flight at night and the FuG212 Lichtenstein S-1 radar. So he flew even slower, since the radar antennas took another 20 km / h.

On November 24, 1943, another prototype was brought out for testing. The engines were installed Jumo211N, 1500 hp. The promised 213s were never ready. The armament consisted of four 20-mm MG151 / 20 cannons, flame arresters and a FuG.212 radar were included. The plane has grown to 8700 kg.

An attempt to install a more modern radar FuG220 "Liechtenstein" led to the loss of stability of the aircraft due to the rather impressive "Deer horns" antennas "Liechtenstein". I had to increase the keel, but it helped. The loss of stability led to the yaw of the aircraft and, accordingly, problems with aiming.

But with modernized engines, despite the losses in aerodynamics, the Ta.154 developed 620 km / h and showed decent handling.

The prototypes were sent for military trials, and the Focke-Wulf was ordered a series of 250 aircraft.

The combat use of the prototype in a specially created squadron Erprobungskommando 154 showed that four MG.151 / 20 cannons for operation on Lancaster and Halifax are definitely not enough even in the 20-mm version. Therefore, the carriages were urgently altered and a pair of Mk.108 were installed, 2-3 30-mm shells of which were enough to disable the Lancaster.


On May 6, 1944, the first loss occurred in the Ta.154 camp. A prototype that didn't have weapons, serving to test the new propulsion system, was shot down by the Lightning P-38.

Meanwhile, the situation in the skies over Germany was heating up in the truest sense of the word. The party took everything under its control, on March 1, 1944, by order of the Fuehrer, the Fighter Headquarters was formed, which was headed by one of the leaders of the Nazi party, Otto Zaur, who received the broadest powers. Zaur was able to do something to increase the production of aircraft, but all the same, the production of Ta.154 was actually hand-assembled in single quantities.

Milch, who was not very fond of Heinkel, decided to curtail the production of He.219, which had already successfully fought in the night sky of the Reich, and to produce Ta.154 and Ju.388J instead. And he did it! Despite the fact that the Ta.154 was produced individually, like the Maybachs, and the Ju.388J was generally built in one copy and passed factory tests.

Nevertheless, in May 1944, the He.219 was discontinued, even despite the protests of the pilots who liked the fighter. However, literally a month later, it became clear that neither the Ta.154 nor the Ju.388J should be expected quickly and in proper quantities, and the "Owl" went into series again.

And at the end of May, the first Ta.154s began to leave the factories. At the same time, Kurt Tank learned that the Ministry of Aviation wanted to curtail the production of Ta.154. Milch, who not so long ago opposed the He.219, now advocated the release of the Heinkel car together with the Junkers Ju.388J.

The tank did not give up. He went for a trick, inviting his friend Adolph Galland, who by that time was in command of the entire fighter aircraft of the Luftwaffe and the inspector of the night fighter aviation, Colonel Werner Streib, to personally fly the Ta-154.

June 2, 1944 both aces made one flight on the Ta-154 from the Berlin-Staaken airfield.

However, friends did not help Tank. They did not like the plane, and Galland generally said that the Ta.154, when fully loaded, would not be able to do anything with the Mosquito at all.

By the way, Galland was right, and so it happened in the end.


Then fate dealt another blow to the Ta.154 when several aircraft crashed. Proceedings began as the wings collapsed. The tank found itself at the center of a scandal and proceedings that reached the court under the leadership of Goering himself.

At the trial, it turned out that the Tank had nothing to do with it. The fault was the Kaurit glue, produced by Dynamite AG instead of the original Tego-Leim glue from Goldmann, whose factories were bombed by the allies. The glue was not quite suitable, which caused the wings to collapse. Goering apologized to Tank, who was acquitted.

At the same time, Goering learned that the Ta.154 was a night fighter, and not a high-speed bomber, which was supposed to operate over the territory of Great Britain, as the commander-in-chief of the Reich Air Force believed.

The lack of the necessary glue made the production of aircraft very difficult. But the situation itself was very unstable. Difficulties with suppliers, the allied bombing of German enterprises (from which the Ta.154 was supposed to protect), accidents - all this had a rather strong effect on the production of aircraft.

Not surprisingly, on August 14, 1944, the production of the Ta.154 was announced to be discontinued.

But even after that, Tank did not give up the struggle for his brainchild, and work on modifications of the Ta.154 was going on in the shops.

However, in November 1944 the last nail was driven into the lid of the Ta.154 coffin. This was the decree on the beginning of the implementation of the "Emergency Fighter Program", according to which the production of all twin-engine aircraft with piston engines, with the exception of the Do.335, was stopped.

A total of 31 Ta.154 aircraft were produced. Prototypes and pre-production - 21 copies and 10 serial. Some sources call the figure up to 40 cars, but in fact it is completely irrelevant.

Modifications were also developed.

Ta-154V with Jumo.211N engine. A new type of cab with a "blown" canopy and ejection seats. The armament was to consist of four 30-mm Mk.108 cannons in the nose and two of the same cannons in the Schrage Musik. As a radar was planned FuG.240 "Berlin N-1a" centimeter range with a parabolic antenna in the radome.

Ta-254. This is Ta.154C with Jumo213E engines (with three-speed two-stage superchargers and 1750 hp in takeoff mode) and GM-1 afterburner system.

It was expected that the Ta-254A-1 will reach a maximum speed of 682 km / h at an altitude of 10 m, and a single daytime Ta-590A-254 with the MW2 system - 50 km / h at an altitude of 736 m.

But of course, these planes did not go into production.

But we can say with confidence that Ta.154 still went into battle. Even in single copies. This is evidenced by both the business documents of the Luftwaffe units and the aerial photographs of German airfields taken by the British.


Ta.154, who ended up in NJG-10 and E / JG2, formed at the end of 1944 in southern Germany, could well take part in hostilities.

Feldwebel Gottfried Schneider made the first combat sortie on Ta.154 on November 19, 1944. According to some reports, Schneider shot down one Lancaster, but then the Mosquito that approached forced Schneider to retreat.

It turned out that "Mosquito" remained a tough nut to crack for Ta.154. The German fighter was unable to either catch up with the Mosquito bombers or escape the fighters. It turns out that the Ta.154 had only one option for attack - from below or from above the column of bombers. Once. Then "Mosquito" was pulled up, covering the bombers and "Focke-Wulfam" was not up to the attacks. Even good maneuverability did not help, and the speed of the British was higher.


Afterburner systems were installed on some aircraft in the field so that they could break away from British fighters.

But Ta.154 suffered the main losses during the day, on the ground, under the bombs of the allies. It was natural.

If circumstances were better, this interesting aircraft could have played a much more prominent role in the air battles over Germany. But alas, Tank failed to push the plane into production and quickly fulfill THAT order for 250 aircraft.

But this was the fate of almost all German combat aircraft, work on which went on after the start of the Second World War.

What else can you say about this plane?

The crew was very well protected. The weight of the armor that protected the cockpit was 150 kg. Frontal bulletproof glass - 50 mm, side glass - 30 mm. The seat of the RDS operator, which sat behind the pilot, facing forward during the flight, had an armored headrest. The frontal armor plate in the nose was 12 mm thick, the side armor plates were 8 mm thick.

Radio-electronic equipment.
- ultra-short-wave radio station FuG.16ZY with a radio compass unit ZVG16;
- equipment of identification "friend or foe" FuG.25a Erstling for interaction with the Wurzburg type air defense radar;
- radio altimeter FuG.101a;
- Blind landing equipment FuB.12F
- PeilG6 radio navigation system with APZ A-6 radio compass.
- Radar: FuG.212C-1, FuG.22O SN-2 or FuG.218 "Neptun".


LTX Ta.154a-1

Wingspan, m: 16,30
Length, m: 12,55
Height, m: 3,60
Wing area, м2: 31,40

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 8 940
- normal takeoff: 8 450
- maximum take-off: 9 560
Engines: 2 х Junkers "Jumo" 213Е x 1 750 hp
Maximum speed km / h
- near the ground: 530
- at height: 646
Cruising speed, km / h: 520

Practical range, km:
- with nominal fuel: 1
- with additional tanks 2х300 l: 1 850

Rate of climb, m / min: 750
Practical ceiling, m: 10 900

Crew, prs: 2

Armament:
- two 20-mm guns MG.151 with 200 rounds per barrel,
- two 30-mm cannon MK.108 with 110 rounds per barrel.


The plane was really good. But "Mosquito" was better, and No. 219 was better. The result of political machinations, Ta.154 lost even to itself in the sense that Focke-Wulf was unable to establish production in the required quantities.

The aircraft had strengths such as handling, range, good avionics and weapons.

But speed was a weak point. That is why, despite all the behind-the-scenes machinations of Kurt Tank, the plane did not become the guardian of the Reich's night sky. And no one stood up for him in the Ministry of Aviation.


So it turns out that Ta.154 lost to everyone.
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  1. Zementbomber
    Zementbomber 23 January 2021 05: 43
    +3
    The Luftwaffe did not have specialized night fighter-interceptors. There were, however, night fighters, which were made according to the leftover principle from obsolete Dornier bombers of the 15th and 17th series.

    By the beginning of WWII, the air defenses in Berlin had an air group Bf.109D, modified for night flights.
    In addition, right after the Polish Campaign, the Ar.68 squadron was transferred to the night fighter aviation.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 23 January 2021 11: 12
      -1
      The novel rightly drew attention to the fact that with what attempts the night exterminators were born in the Reich. And yet, the Germans decided to manufacture a night fighter based on the FV-189, and do you know against whom? - against U-2 (Po-2)! This speaks to the excellent performance of this plywood aircraft as a light night bomber! good
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 23 January 2021 22: 45
        +3
        Quote: Proxima
        And yet, the Germans decided to manufacture a night fighter based on the FV-189

        The "frame" was never a night fighter and never chased a Po-2. The Fw189 was and remained a short-range reconnaissance aircraft until the end of the war. Occasionally - yes, in 1943 he performed the tasks of counter-partisan struggle. Is there a documentary confirmation of your words? There is not a single mention of "frame" in the memoirs of Po-2 pilots. Just do not give a link to an article in VO 2016 - there is nonsense written, sucked out of the author's finger.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 24 January 2021 01: 34
          +1
          Apparently it was all the same, but in homeopathic doses and not factory, but field alteration
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 January 2021 11: 04
            +1
            I'm just amused by this nonsense about the "frame" as a "special hunter for Po-2". Where did it come from? From an article in Corner of Heaven?
            "Liechtensteins" and shrege muzyk - specially for hunting "maize" ??? And this cretinism is dragged back and forth (including repeatedly on VO)
            In the NJG.100 mentioned in all sources, in which a pair of frames served, in fact, everyone was hunting for everything that flies! Ok, let's see:
            Feldwebel Helmut Konter - 9 shot down Po-2 (record), 5 of them - at an altitude of 1 km - flew the Fw-58.
            Hauptmann Rudi Schönert (one of the most successful "night lights") shot down a pair of Po-2 from the general list of his victories on the Eastern Front (31 shot down). He flew the "thing".
            Lt Eberhard Kaross (2 shot down Po-2) flew Bf 109.

            etc.
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 25 January 2021 01: 31
          +2
          http://airwar.ru/enc/fww2/fw189.html
          the night hunter was made of the frame, in addition, there are real reports from both sides about his actions
          And no wonder. Po-2s operated in the amount of several hundred and it was unpleasant to ignore them.
        3. Proxima
          Proxima 25 January 2021 23: 46
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          The "frame" was never a night fighter and never chased a Po-2.

          Your peremptory nature of such a statement clearly shows that you, to put it mildly, are not an intelligent person.
    2. Alf
      Alf 23 January 2021 20: 58
      +1
      Quote: Zementbomber
      In addition, right after the Polish Campaign, the Ar.68 squadron was transferred to the night fighter aviation.

      Speed ​​335 and 2 MG-17 ... Not gut at all.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 January 2021 14: 04
        +1
        ... Speed ​​335 and 2 MG-17 ... Not gut at all.

        Dora is also not particularly good by 1940. It was disposed of in the 'night lights' from the combat units as they were rearmed on the 'emily', as far as I know.
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 January 2021 12: 29
      0
      Quote: Zementbomber
      By the beginning of WWII, the air defenses in Berlin had an air group Bf.109D, modified for night flights.

      It seems that the first night squadron with "doras" 11. (NJ) / LG 2 (from September 39th - 10. (NJ) / JG 26) was formed in May-June 39th in Ostheim (Cologne). This is not exactly Berlin air defense. And as far as I know, the "dora" were not subjected to any modifications. The squadron was a "night support flask" and was designed to fight in searchlight fields.
    4. yehat2
      yehat2 April 5 2021 11: 18
      0
      which does not mean that these machines were somehow effective.
      bf-109Ds had very mediocre characteristics. The Germans were no longer able to intercept the high-altitude bomber at a speed of 400-450 km / h.
  2. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 23 January 2021 05: 48
    0
    As always interesting and informative.
    I always wonder where the author gets such minute details from.
    This is how many documents need to be shoveled for just one article smile
    Thanks to the author hi
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 23 January 2021 13: 17
      +16
      I always wonder where the author gets such minute details from.
      This is how many documents need to be shoveled for just one article

      Credible trolling !!!
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 24 January 2021 22: 49
        0
        Why trolling at once? Maybe just a deflection?
    2. Fitter65
      Fitter65 23 January 2021 16: 22
      +12
      Quote: Lipchanin
      I always wonder where the author gets such minute details from.
      This is how many documents need to be shoveled for just one article

      In the best case, two "documents" are an article on "Corner of Heaven" and an article from Wikipedia, and there is one more "document" - "About the plane" ... At one time in the magazine "Aviamaster №2 1998" about this plane was a monograph , by the way, there were more details and very minute ones, without blunders which, as always, or rather, are mandatory in the articles of this author about aviation ...
    3. NF68
      NF68 23 January 2021 19: 02
      +3
      Quote: Lipchanin
      This is how many documents need to be shoveled for just one article


      Naive, you man.
  3. Comrade
    Comrade 23 January 2021 06: 21
    +10
    The Luftwaffe did not have specialized night fighter-interceptors. There were, however, night fighters, which were made according to the leftover principle from the outdated Dornier bombers of the 15th and 17th series.

    The first night fighter squadron was formed in the summer of 1940, and was equipped with aircraft four (do you hear the author?) types:
    Bf-110C, Bf-109D, Ju-88C-1 and C-2, Do17Z -7/10.
    The first officially confirmed victory "night lights" won on July 9, 1940 - Ober-Feldwebel Paul Förster shot down a Whitley Mk V bomber over Helgoland Island.

    That is why everyone in the Luftwaffe was happy with the fact that night fighters appeared by remaking blatant old stuff like ... Do.215 ...

    Roman, why do you call Do 215 aircraft, deliveries of which began in January-February 1940, "outright old"?
    You seem to be describing 1940, so when did this plane become so horribly out of date?
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 23 January 2021 11: 57
      +4
      Quote: Comrade
      Roman, why do you call Do 215 aircraft, deliveries of which began in January-February 1940, "outright old"?
      You seem to be describing 1940, so when did this plane become so horribly out of date?

      Here, honestly, the epithet outright old it would be quite fair to apply to the first British "night light" - "Blenheim". No speed, no maneuverability, no weapons. But, nevertheless, on July 22, 1940, the "radar" "Blenheim" shot down Do.17 over the English Channel.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 24 January 2021 04: 15
        -2
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        No speed, no maneuverability, no weapons. But, nevertheless, on July 22, 1940, the "radar" "Blenheim" shot down Do.17 over the English Channel.

        You can also remember the hero of the Soviet Union Safonov B.F., on August 6, 1941, on an I-16 fighter who shot down a Bf-109.

        And this is not the only case when in the summer of 16 Bf-109 was shot down on the I-16, because among the I-XNUMX pilots there were many excellent aerobatic pilots - veterans of the war in Spain.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 January 2021 09: 51
          +1
          Quote: Comrade
          You can also recall the hero of the Soviet Union Safonov B.F.

          And what does Safonov have to do with it? It's generally about night fighters, if you haven't noticed. If "but here we have ...", then it is more appropriate to recall the air defense aviation of Moscow, which shot down 40 German bombers in a hundred night battles in July-August. Talalikhin, for example, who rammed with his "donkey" He-111, is also an air defense officer (177 IAP)
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 25 January 2021 05: 05
            -1
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            And what does Safonov have to do with it?

            And despite the fact that the main detail of any weapon - in our case, morally obsolete - is the head of its owner.
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            it is more appropriate to recall the air defense aviation of Moscow, which in July-August in one hundred night battles shot down 40 German bombers.

            During the first raid on Moscow, the Luftwaffe lost two bombers. One (Non-111H-6), damaged by a fighter, was later shot down by anti-aircraft gunners, the second (Do-17Z-2) was hit, managed to reach Vitebsk, where it made an emergency landing.
            Are these two aircraft included in the figure you indicated?
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Actually, a year earlier. May 1939 11. (NJ) / LG 2.

            Actually 11. (Nacht) / LG2 formed 1 August 1939 in Greifswald. Commander - J. Steinhoff (Oberleutnant Johannes Steinhoff).
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 January 2021 10: 43
              -2
              Quote: Comrade
              Actually 11. (Nacht) / LG2 was formed on August 1, 1939 in Greifswald. Commander - J. Steinhoff (Oberleutnant Johannes Steinhoff).


              I took information from Die Deutsche Luftwaffe, Zerstörer und Nachtjagdverbände, part 2 (Mayer / Stipdonk)

              11. (NJ) / LG 2:
              Formed: late May-early June 1939
              Place of formation: Cologne (Ostheim)
              Mat.part: Bf.109D-1
              Number change: September 1939 - 10. (NJ) / JG 26
              Commander: Johannes Steinhof (May / June - September 1, 1939)
              Number change: February 3, 1940 - 11. (N) / JG 2
              SCommander: Johannes Steinhof (03.02.1940-25.06.1940)
              Final number: 5./NJG 1

              And anyway - August 1939 - is not
              Quote: Comrade
              The first night fighter squadron was formed in the summer of 1940
              , is not it?
              Quote: Comrade
              During the first raid on Moscow, the Luftwaffe lost two bombers. One (Non-111H-6), damaged by a fighter, was later shot down by anti-aircraft gunners, the second (Do-17Z-2) was hit, managed to reach Vitebsk, where it made an emergency landing.
              Are these two aircraft included in the figure you indicated?

              They enter, they do not enter - what is the fundamental difference for you, who credited these bombers?
              Quote: Comrade
              And despite the fact that the main detail of any weapon - in our case, morally obsolete - is the head of its owner.

              Of course, but why should the thought spread? "Closer to the body" (c) - so they would mention that the first night lights of our air defense were test pilots. Mark Gallay, for example, perfectly piloted the complex MiG-3, but never fired an airborne weapon... And nevertheless, in that very first raid of the Germans on Moscow, he dumped his first "Dornier".
              1. Comrade
                Comrade 26 January 2021 05: 32
                -1
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                I took information from Die Deutsche Luftwaffe, Zerstörer und Nachtjagdverbände, part 2 (Mayer / Stipdonk)

                My sources:
                1) Michael Holm "Lehrgeschwader 2 (available on the internet)
                2) M. Zefirov "Aces of the Luftwaffe. Night fighters".
                The date of formation is different, perhaps in different sources this date means different events in the life of the squadron.
                Another thing is important - the squadron you indicated was not combat, and experimental. (See said work p. 20).
                And Steinhof won his first victories as many as 18 December November 1939, XNUMX

                About
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                And anyway - August 1939 is not
                Quote: Comrade
                The first night fighter squadron was formed in the summer of 1940
                , is not it?

                I will answer as follows.
                Official formation order first Goering gave the night fighter squadron June 22, 1940 That is why first the officially confirmed victory "night lights" won on July 9, 1940, although to this date and the Germans won overnight victories.
                Thus, Yours truly wrote about combat a squadron of night fighters, and you - about educational.


                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                They enter, they do not enter - what is the fundamental difference for you, who credited these bombers?

                Anyone can record, but you categorically stated that
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                air defense aviation of Moscow, which in July-August in one hundred night battles shot down 40 German bombers.

                It doesn't seem to you that the plane that made an emergency landing near Vitebsk was shot down in an air battle not pulls?

                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Mark Gallay, for example, perfectly piloted the complex MiG-3, but never fired from an onboard weapon. And nevertheless, in that very first raid of the Germans on Moscow, he dumped his first "Dornier".

                It only seemed to him, in fact, not a single enemy plane was shot down there (details - see my previous comment)
                1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 10: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Comrade
                  Another thing is important - the squadron you indicated was not combat, but experimental.


                  Quite right, training until September 39th, when it changed its name from LG (Lehrgeschwader) to JG. So, I think she was quite militant at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Another thing is that she and the "night" was rather nominally - "Maki" Steinhof had no task to hunt at night, but only in the evening and early morning hours. But we were talking about the first division with a similar specialization, no?)

                  Quote: Comrade
                  Anyone can record, but you categorically stated that
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  air defense aviation of Moscow, which in July-August in one hundred night battles shot down 40 German bombers.

                  It was not I who "categorically stated," but the historians of the Soviet air defense system. And how Stalin's falcons recorded downed or conventionally shot down at their own expense is a separate topic.
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 25 January 2021 01: 34
          -1
          it's not just aerobatics - weak pilots rarely flew on the I-16.
          the point is that the I-16 of the last series at low altitudes was not much inferior to bf109 in speed, noticeably superior in maneuver and often in armament, and could well have wrestled with it.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 January 2021 11: 27
            -2
            Quote: yehat2
            weak pilots rarely flew on the I-16.

            why do you think so?
            Where did a large mass of "not weak" pilots come from by the beginning of the war? In the western districts there were 1800, emnip, "donkeys" - where did they recruit "not weak" pilots for them? At the Chuguev school? So GSS Kozlov N.A. I graduated with a 25-hour flight time on the I-16. In Kach? Pokryshkin flew there in the "donkey" in general for 10 hours 38 minutes.
            The war made them "not weak", not the fact of piloting the I-16.
            1. yehat2
              yehat2 26 January 2021 09: 48
              0
              At the beginning of the war, it was not Pokryshkin and not Chuguevsky who were considered strong pilots.
              I don't remember the names, this question never interested me in detail, but I know about the practice introduced by Alksnis, that in each important air unit they tried to place 1-2 very experienced pilots. Almost every IAP in the west of the country had at least one real ace. They regularly flew in the regiments, conducted air battles. When I read my memoirs, no one even stuttered about some lack of fuel or other materiel for combat training.
              Where did these pilots come from? Let me remind you that in the 30s the USSR launched a gigantic pilot training program. We flew on gliders, various whatnots. There were parachute towers throughout the country, more than 1800 airfields and reserve sites were created.
              In the country itself, many events took place where pilots were also required en masse - mail, the beginning of civilian traffic, various events like the development of the Arctic.
              To understand how much movement there was, a team of pros was assembled to save the Chelyuskinites in 2 days. Now this is simply impossible. From this base, people were recruited who had already completed their studies in schools and units. You probably don't even know that there were special training air regiments. Before the war, the USSR trained more than 2500 navigators for long-range aviation, not to mention other specialties.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 11: 17
                +1
                Quote: yehat2
                Where did these pilots come from? Let me remind you that in the 30s the USSR launched a gigantic pilot training program.

                Yes, I did, I don’t argue - the number of Air Force schools increased by 700%, that's right. A lot of attention was paid to aviation. But if you look beyond the poster side of this case, you will see a not so happy picture about "making a fairy tale come true."
                Schools and colleges of the Red Army Air Force have not yet become true educational institutions, providing fully trained, literate, cultural and highly disciplined pilot commanders

                From the Order of NCO No. 070 dated 04.06.1939
                The government expressed concern about the scale of the accident rate, which
                reached extraordinary proportions.
                1. yehat2
                  yehat2 26 January 2021 11: 36
                  0
                  only the United States could train such pilots en masse.
                  No other country was able to build mass training of high-level fighter pilots before the war.
                  In Japan, at the beginning of the war, there were about 150 of them. In frightening Germany there are about 250. In the USSR, there are no exact data, but according to what I read, there are about 100-120 fighters and 300 pilots for heavy vehicles.
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 24 January 2021 14: 14
      0
      ... The first night fighter squadron was formed in the summer of 1940

      Actually, a year earlier. May 1939, 11 2. (NJ) / LG XNUMX
  4. Sergey M. Karasev
    Sergey M. Karasev 23 January 2021 06: 26
    -2
    The article is good! good I heard about Ta-154 out of the corner of my ear, read out of the corner of my eye.
  5. Constanty
    Constanty 23 January 2021 11: 17
    +10
    In my opinion, a photo of Josef Kammhuber mid-1941.


    this would be more appropriate than a post-war photo (after 1957) from the West German service with the rank of Inspekteur der Luftwaffe
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 23 January 2021 18: 09
      +5
      I would ask the person who put the minus sign to give their arguments.

      Let me just remind
      j) It is forbidden to purposefully minus all comments in a row by one user
  6. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 23 January 2021 11: 46
    +6
    "Not a single bomb will fall on the capital of the Reich" - this phrase was recalled to Goering until his death and even after it.

    Goering never said that. Original phrase - "No bomb will fall on the Ruhr!" - he said on August 9, 1939 after the inspection of the Rhineland.
    What was created by the titanic efforts of Colonel Kammhuber, could only be called night forces by such an optimist as Goering.

    Look how it is. But what then to call the Butcher Harris, who declared that with his "Lancasters" he would destroy Berlin "from end to end" and this would force the Germans to capitulate (attention!) To 1 April 1944 of the year. ... At the same time, he said that if the Americans join the KBA, then the allied fleet will lose 400-500 aircraft, but for Germany it will be cost war... Well, and which of them is the biggest optimist? ))
  7. trahterist
    trahterist 23 January 2021 11: 58
    +2
    Quote: Constanty
    In my opinion, a photo of Josef Kammhuber mid-1941.


    this would be more appropriate than a post-war photo (after 1957) from the West German service with the rank of Inspekteur der Luftwaffe

    I also noticed that the form in the article is not from the time of the Reich.
  8. ludoger
    ludoger 23 January 2021 12: 16
    +2
    "Weight, kg
    - empty aircraft: 8 940
    - normal takeoff: 8 450 "
    ?? sad
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 23 January 2021 16: 46
      +7
      Quote: ludoger
      "Weight, kg
      - empty aircraft: 8 940
      - normal takeoff: 8 450 "
      ?? sad

      Well, what are you right, because of such a trifle you find fault? A person does not understand what it is at all, and therefore constantly confuses white with fluffy. I honestly watch his articles for fun. I just wonder where he will start to mow and carry nonsense. In this article I liked about the night fighter from
      obsolete Dornier bombers 15
      You always learn something "interesting" from his articles. laughing drinks good
  9. Oberleutnant
    Oberleutnant 23 January 2021 13: 51
    +4
    Sehr intensiv recherchiert. Vielen Dank!
  10. Fitter65
    Fitter65 23 January 2021 15: 54
    +3
    night fighters, which were made according to the leftover principle from obsolete Dornier bombers of the 15th and 17th series.

    Nothing changes over time. Moreover, given that Roman Skomorokhov had already rewritten an article about Do 17. There was a Do 17Z-6 Night fighter-interceptor. Infrared aircraft detection equipment. There was also such a Do 17Z-10 Night Fighter-Interceptor. Reinforced machine gun and cannon armament. Infrared aircraft detection equipment. Then there was such an option - the heavy night fighter Dornier Do 215B-5 "Kauz" III, then the Do 217J-1 went further and the following modifications. About fighters based on the Dornier 15 series, you can briefly say, again Roman screwed up
    Dornier Do Y (German Dornier Do Y) - German aircraft used in the interwar period. Although this aircraft was designed as a bomber, it was also used as a transport aircraft, a communications aircraft and a multi-engine training aircraft, an aircraft with multiple engines. It was produced by the Swiss division of the German company Dornier (German: Flugzeugwerft Alterhein am Bodensee). Only 4 copies of the aircraft were manufactured for the needs of the Air Force of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Two aircraft were built by 1932 and two more were built in 1936. Aircraft completed in 1936 are called in the literature Dornier Do 15.
  11. Alf
    Alf 23 January 2021 21: 02
    +1
    Nipp and his team made many changes to the original design. The designers soon moved from the midplane to the high-wing. A crew of two was placed in front of one another under a single canopy. Single-fin, vertical tail was made at the same time with the fuselage, and horizontal - cantilever. The main landing gear was retracted into the engine nacelles, and instead of the tail wheel, they decided to use a nose support.

    These are not changes, this is almost a new plane.
    1. Alf
      Alf 23 January 2021 21: 21
      +1
      Here he is, Hans, looming in the night ..
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 24 January 2021 01: 17
        0
        Model by Hasegawa.
        this is how the box from this model looks completely.
  12. Torukmakto
    Torukmakto 24 January 2021 01: 17
    +10
    It is significant, unfortunately, how (at least for me personally) the level of confidence in the reliability of the information presented in the articles on the Military Review has dropped.
    At some point I caught myself on the fact that before reading the article, I first check the author, and if, for example, Mr. Skomorokhov, I immediately proceed to the discussion in the comments.
    This case was no exception.
    I am not so well versed in some of the topics discussed and their small details, as many on this resource, in order to notice inconsistencies, inaccuracies and other problems of the author's rather colorfully written texts.
    People who are interested come to our resource to learn something new for themselves, some interesting moments hitherto unknown for themselves. They read the author's articles, colorful, with a bunch of beautiful illustrations, and then go down below, in the comments, and it turns out that all this beautiful picture de facto misleads the reader, presenting often inaccurate data and statements.
    Sadly that's all.
  13. yehat2
    yehat2 25 January 2021 16: 59
    +1
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Where did a large mass of "not weak" pilots come from by the beginning of the war?

    The I-16 is a difficult aircraft to pilot, much more difficult than the Yak-1 or I-153.
    a beginner on it will not be able to fight normally. In addition, it needs just physical strength.
    and good health. Therefore, the I-16 was mainly flown by the elite of the Soviet air force. For example, in the Leningrad iap (I don't remember the numbers), in one of the best air regiments, where people like Alksnis and Rychagov were ordinary guests on the I-16, only a third of the pilots had access.
    And accordingly, there were not many of them, as many might think.
    I'm sure there were no more than 200 pilots in the entire USSR who mastered this aircraft well.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 25 January 2021 22: 01
      -1
      Quote: yehat2
      Therefore, the I-16 was mainly flown by the elite of the Soviet Air Force ... I am sure that in the entire USSR there were no more than 200 pilots who mastered this aircraft well.

      All this is very touching, but I am embarrassed to ask - was there enough "elite of the Air Force" for 1800 "donkeys" in the border districts (plus naval ones)? The Red Five, of course, “mastered very well” the I-16, but they were the top five. She, sorry, not to fight. There are only a few such people in aviation.
      Quote: yehat2
      on the I-16, only a third of the pilots had access.

      Well, well, at the beginning of the war there were seven IAPs in the LVO, fully equipped with I-16s. Something of the order of 260 aircraft. A third of those who have a permit for the I-16 are, let's say, 90 pilots. And what about the rest of the cars? The dithyrambs of the "donkey" are understandable, but, excuse me, why the hell do you need such a machine, which only 200 people were able to pilot for all RKKVS ??
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 25 January 2021 22: 30
        +1
        Where did you get the data that the I-16s are fully completed?
        In that IAP, about which I wrote, there were only 4 donkeys and several MIGs (I do not remember the number and model number), and the basis was i-15 different versions. Most flew them.
        And not because the I-16 was not enough - just those 4 that were standing were not all exploited, because mainly senior officers who had other concerns could fly them.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 09: 00
          0
          Quote: yehat2
          Where did you get the data that the I-16s are fully completed?

          what does "where" mean? From the USSR Ministry of Defense. Before the war, in 5 border districts there were 57 regiments fully equipped with "donkeys". Plus 344 "donkey" in the air force of three fleets. I don't take shelves with mixed materiel. So - who flew this mass I-16? "Elite" and
          Quote: yehat2
          mostly senior officers

          ?
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 26 January 2021 09: 33
            +1
            you are some kind of provocateur. no ordinary air regiment was fully equipped with donkeys only. It was simply impossible. I have already said that not all pilots were allowed to fly them. In addition, it is worth recalling the resource of the machines and the quality of their service. The nominal presence of the car did not mean that it even had an engine.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 10: 39
              0
              Quote: yehat2
              you are some kind of provocateur

              Why is this? You will deign to tell tales that pilots of the level of almost Kokkinaki and Supruna were allowed to fly the I-16. I asked an elementary counter-question - who were the pilots of those 1800 "donkeys" in the western districts? All the "Air Force elite"?
              Quote: yehat2
              no ordinary air regiment was fully equipped with donkeys only. It was simply impossible.

              Okay, we selectively look by districts:
              145th IAP (LVO, Shangui) - 22.06.1941/56/16 - 52 I-XNUMX (XNUMX serviceable).
              33rd IAP (ZOVO, Pruzhany) - 22.06.1941/44/16 - 37 I-XNUMX (XNUMX serviceable).
              67th IAP (OdVO, Bulgarian) - 22.06.1941/64/16 - 38 I-XNUMX (XNUMX serviceable).
              21st IAP (PribVO, Riga) - 22.06.1941/65/16 - 50 I-XNUMX (serviceable XNUMX)
              etc.
              Passage pro
              Quote: yehat2
              The nominal presence of the car did not mean that it even had an engine.

              I ignore it.
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 26 January 2021 11: 25
                +1
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                I ignore it.

                but I won't leave
                5th IAP as an example. in June 41 there are 64 and-16, but
                besides them 45 i-15, 29 mig-3, 17 training aircraft.
                in August 41 luggies and harricanes began to arrive.
                In this regiment on the I-16 flew about 15 people, all were somewhere from the list - the Spaniards, the Halkin-Gol and the Finnish war. The rest of the I-16s were also distributed among the pilots, but none of them shot down a single plane on the I-16, completing a total of about 500 sorties.
                They began to shoot down, having received and mastered other machines.
                But the above mentioned group on the I-16 shot down 3 bf-109 and 7 unconfirmed ones in the first days of the war. I did not take into account the bombers.
                I mean, the formal ability to lift the car into the air does not mean that the pilot can do something on it.
                In addition, there were not many qualified technicians and, let's say, the I-16 regiment commander and a number of respected pilots were very different from other machines. For example, the first had an American engine, two had captured engines brought from China, and the rest had their own. And the horizontal speed and reliability of formally similar machines could differ by 100 km / h.
                1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 11: 47
                  0
                  Quote: yehat2
                  5th IAP as an example. in June 41 there are 64 and-16, but
                  besides them 45 i-15, 29 mig-3, 17 training aircraft.

                  damn, I told you, dear, about iap, fully equipped I-16.
                  You have stated directly in Chekhov's way that "This cannot be, because this can never be." What are we talking about?
                  I wrote that
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  I don't take shelves with mixed materiel.

                  Quote: yehat2
                  The rest of the I-16s were also distributed among the pilots, but none of them shot down a single plane on the I-16, completing a total of about 500 sorties.

                  Why are you contradicting yourself? You stated above that
                  Quote: yehat2
                  Therefore, the I-16 was mainly flown by the elite of the Soviet air force.

                  So "mostly elite" or mostly fighter pilots who weren't lucky enough to hit it?
                  1. yehat2
                    yehat2 26 January 2021 12: 07
                    0
                    you know, after a couple of hours of briefing, I can probably also take off on an I-16
                    not the fact that I can sit down, but it doesn't matter.
                    The ability to fly an airplane does not mean any benefit at all.
                    I threw out of the calculations incapacitated pilots
                    Exactly the same as throwing out a lot of pilots who have poorly mastered Lugg.
                    There are machines that require a lot of skill, and there are those that any kettle can do.
                    this is the difference between i16 and i-153, lag-3 of the first series and yak-1
                    why do you constantly ignore it?
                    For example, La-5FN. Great car at the time of its appearance.
                    But after the Yak-1, the pilots had to retrain them a lot, because the machine does not require dumb combat turns and turn, but more intelligent tactics.
                    And Lugg-3 is generally a plane for grandmasters.
                    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 13: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: yehat2
                      There are machines that require a lot of skill, and there are those that any kettle can do.
                      this is the difference between i16 and i-153, lag-3 of the first series and yak-1
                      why do you constantly ignore it?

                      Because I am not inclined to sentimentality. It's all lyrics and aesthetics - oh, complicated control, oh, LaGG-3, but Yak-1 ..... - so what? Is it an argument that yesterday's cadets of schools should not be put into the cabins of "donkeys" in combat units in 1939-40-41?
                      Quote: yehat2
                      I threw out of the calculations incapacitated pilots

                      What is it in general unfit pilots in combat units of the Air Force ???
                      How is it fucking?
                      1. yehat2
                        yehat2 26 January 2021 13: 52
                        0
                        and like this - takeoff and landing are notorious
                      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 14: 31
                        0
                        Quote: yehat2
                        and like this - takeoff and landing are notorious

                        in my opinion, a non-combatant pilot is a person who has the qualifications of a military pilot, but who is discharged due to an unrecoverable physical disability, such as the loss of legs. Isolated cases of Maresyev, Bader, Rudel and Yohei Hinoki do not take.
                      3. yehat2
                        yehat2 26 January 2021 14: 36
                        +1
                        an incapacitated pilot can be for a bunch of reasons, most often psychological.
                        For example, the German Rudel, 3 times was shot down over Kursk, received 2 serious injuries and several minor ones, but immediately jumped to his airfield after landing on a parachute and took off in another car.
                        But besides the very state of the pilot, there are also instructions for flying and his skills.
                        For example, in our Air Force, the charter prohibited free air combat for those who were in the group.
                2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 15: 53
                  0
                  Quote: yehat2
                  you know, after a couple of hours of briefing, I can probably also take off on an I-16
                  not the fact that I can sit down, but it doesn't matter.

                  Don't exaggerate. Or do you think the training of the pilots included "a couple of hours of instruction"? For all, to put it mildly, leaving much to be desired in the training of pilots, it still resulted in the output, albeit crude, but more or less prepared material. The famous Popkov also arrived at the combat unit, having 5 hours of flight time on a combat vehicle - and nothing, became one of the leading aces.
                  1. yehat2
                    yehat2 27 January 2021 09: 41
                    +1
                    Well, I do not speculate on a raid on a combat vehicle. In addition, plaque can include different components. For example, on Lagg-3, a raid would not help much to master piloting "from energy". This requires special tactical training. The difference was that this plane competed well with the Messer before losing energy, but an ordinary pilot after 2-3 elements lost speed by 80-150 km / h and became easy prey.
                    And for the I-16 and Bf-109, the raid played a significant role in the first battles. The Germans also had problems using full wing mechanization - it was difficult. For an instant-3, the raid greatly helped to learn how to properly control the engine. On the Yak-1, the plaque helped to better learn how to regulate the cooling, because at full throttle, the plane could fly until critical overheating for 5 minutes, and then it was necessary to push the radiator to the full and reduce the speed, which led to a similar problem with a weak iron.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 26 January 2021 14: 42
    +1
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Is it an argument that yesterday's cadets of schools should not be put into the cabins of "donkeys" in combat units in 1939-40-41?

    this is exactly what the pilot on whom I rely wrote in his memoirs. Cadets were not allowed on donkeys for half a year or a year, undergoing additional training
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 15: 05
      0
      Quote: yehat2
      Cadets were not allowed on donkeys for half a year or a year, undergoing additional training

      on what?
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 26 January 2021 15: 59
        0
        mainly uti and various auxiliary biplanes, as well as the I-153
        and short sorties on the I-16 with strictly limited missions, as well as constant observation from the ground for the demonstrative aerobatics of "more experienced" comrades - training battles, critical flight modes, a story about difficulties in flight - for example, landing gear release or at what speed to keep engine.
        A very interesting myth was that the I-16 easily went into a tailspin and was difficult to withdraw. In reality, it was the opposite. Only a flat spin was dangerous due to a strong loss of speed, but the I-16 came out of it calmly, but, for example, due to instability in direct flight, a whole series of accidents occurred. There were a number of questions on board. In general, the plane was not weak.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 26 January 2021 16: 17
          +2
          Quote: yehat2
          mostly uti ... and short flights on the I-16

          And UTI-2/4 is the I-16.
        2. illuminat
          illuminat 27 January 2021 11: 49
          0
          Uv. Leave! Well, the same is impossible. Mister S you bare facts, and you in response "I brush", "read somewhere", "heard something."
          Of course, there was no elite in the I-16. What type was in the regiment, that's on that and flew and fought.
          Quote: yehat2
          A very interesting myth was that the I-16 easily went into a tailspin and was difficult to withdraw. In reality, it was the opposite.
          Confusion is in your head. This is not a myth. The I-16 really went into a tailspin very easily, incl. unintentionally (this was the main and most dangerous feature of this aircraft), but also easily withdrawn.
          Quote: yehat2
          Only a flat spin was dangerous due to a strong loss of speed
          A flat corkscrew is dangerous not because of the loss of speed, but because of the delay in the withdrawal, in comparison with the usual one. In general, as a rule, the more the corkscrew is flatter, the more time (and, accordingly, the height) it takes to withdraw. And the speed in a spin can be different, and even quite high.
          Quote: yehat2
          but, for example, due to instability in direct flight, a whole series of accidents occurred.
          Due to insufficient stability (if we are talking about longitudinal), it was precisely the unintentional stall and spin that occurred. And the height for the output (here, at least as easy and simple to output) is not always there. And hi! ((
          In terms of travel, the I-16 was stable, unlike the I-15, for example. Why would an accident?
          Quote: yehat2
          There were a number of questions at the landing. In general, the plane was not weak.
          On landing, apart from the distraction of the landing gear, I don't remember any problems. Can you give a link?
          And the disposition of the I-16 changed for the better from series to series. The last series allowed flight with the thrown handle.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 27 January 2021 12: 04
    +1
    Quote: illuminat
    The I-16 really went into a tailspin very easily, incl. unintentionally

    this nonsense was officially refuted after special tests by Chkalov, because even then someone started this cartoon, and he made 70 flights specifically to check the corkscrew characteristics and what you say was not confirmed.
    1. illuminat
      illuminat 27 January 2021 12: 54
      +1
      Quote: yehat2
      this nonsense was officially refuted after special tests by Chkalov,

      This is not delusion, but a well-established fact, noted by all operators. Most likely, you misunderstood what is written in the source.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 27 January 2021 12: 59
        +2
        it is not written. This is described in the pre-war training film on the operation of the I-16.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 27 January 2021 13: 09
          +1
          The I-16 had a rear alignment, it was difficult to control the aircraft, but those pilots who mastered this aircraft worked wonders. And the experience gained on the I-16 allowed these pilots to master the Aircobra with its rear centering, which the American and British pilots refused. Most of our aces fought on Airacobras, after the I-16 they were able to control an unstable machine, but very powerful in armament.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 27 January 2021 13: 45
            +2
            As far as I know, the centering was not rearward, but simply closer to the center in comparison with the usual ones due to the length of the aircraft. And the aircobra had just the engine behind and the centering was fundamentally different. Another thing is that Polikarpov deliberately created the I-16 with unstable aerodynamics (the plane was scouring in flight), which was tiring in a long flight and could be annoying when landing in a crosswind, but gave a better reaction to the beginning of a maneuver in battle, and it is this feature made the I-16 very dangerous in maneuverable combat. The Su-27 has the same aerodynamics, but there a special robot compensates. The i15 first had, and the bis did not have such aerodynamics and was controlled much more comfortably, but at a speed of about 60 km / h less than the I-16, it made a turn only half a second faster, and the I-153 bis was generally on a par with the I-16 type 10 was spinning.
            But the I-16, like the FV-190, had the opportunity to turn its nose, which the I-16 often did on the very first bend, shooting at the opponent, while risking losing speed to almost zero and falling into a flat spin, among other things from which it was easy to get out.
            Later, because of the danger and difficulty of piloting, Polykarpov abandoned unstable aerodynamics and the I-153 bis and subsequent cars after the I-16 were all traditionally designed to be stable.
            1. illuminat
              illuminat 27 January 2021 14: 47
              0
              Quote: yehat2
              As far as I know, the centering was not rearward, but simply closer to the center in comparison with the usual ones due to the length of the aircraft.
              You don't know well. Precisely, the rear, with takeoff weight, was 31% of the MAR. For cars of the traditional scheme, the norm is 20-25% of the average, and 30-33% is close to the maximum rear.
              Quote: yehat2
              Another thing is that Polikarpov deliberately created I-16 with unstable aerodynamics.
              So this was achieved by rear centering!
              Quote: yehat2
              (the plane prowled in flight)
              Why are you bringing the blizzard to the masses? What is the purpose of this? Yaw is a course, at the rate of I-16 it is stable, therefore I DIDN'T YARK.
              Quote: yehat2
              Su-27 has the same aerodynamics,
              Not like that, from the word at all. Su-27 is aerodynamically UNSTABLE. The I-16 is a STABLE (although not enough in the first series) aircraft.
              Quote: yehat2
              u15 at first had, but encore did not have such aerodynamics and was controlled much more comfortably,
              I sincerely don’t understand WHY are you making this nonsense out of your head?

              The I-15 had a track instability, prowled (for "specialists" like Leave - "scoured" it to the left and right and nothing else) in the operating speed range. This was caused by the design of the center section of the upper wing of the "gull" type, and significantly hampered aiming in air combat. It is for this reason that the I-15bis abandoned the "seagull". Returning to this constructive solution, Polikarpov redesigned the center section of the I-153.

              Quote: yehat2
              But the I-16, like the FV-190, had the opportunity to turn its nose
              "Swift jack" (c)

              Quote: yehat2
              Later, because of the danger and difficulty of piloting, Polykarpov abandoned unstable aerodynamics and the I-153 bis and subsequent cars after the I-16 were all traditionally designed to be stable.
              The entire I-15 - bis-153 line was "traditionally stable", in contrast to the I-16. And the degree of stability has nothing to do with the time of the bend.

              Why, Karl? Ignorance is half the trouble. But why sculpt nonsense, not understanding anything ?????
        2. illuminat
          illuminat 27 January 2021 13: 14
          0
          Quote: yehat2
          it is not written. This is described in the pre-war training film on the operation of the I-16.
          Give the link. So that you can make sure that this is what was told, and not your interpretation.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 27 January 2021 13: 15
            +1
            but what interpretation can there be ???
            look for, throw off.
            1. illuminat
              illuminat 27 January 2021 14: 02
              0
              Quote: yehat2
              but what interpretation can there be ???
              look for, throw off.
              The interpretation is the most common, incorrect.
              In the Airplane Flight Manual (with M-25) it is written in Russian and white: "has only satisfactory longitudinal stability "," I-16 aircraft very easily and quickly falls onto the wing .... Plane easily goes into a tailspin. (the following is a list of errors leading to a corkscrew) "The selection is mine.
              Will you argue with the management?

              And so on ALL modes - avoid, not allow, take into account. Usually planes warn about a stall, I-16 fell WITHOUT WARNING, and very quickly and abruptly. After that, if nothing was done (to hold the steering wheels), he left the stall mode (or a spin). But, if there is no height, the pilot didn't care. ((

              Look for the link to the video. I have not found.
              1. illuminat
                illuminat 27 January 2021 15: 26
                0
                PySy. If anyone is interested, about different corkscrews
                Remembers P.M. Stefanovsky, test pilot

                [media = http: //i16fighter.ru/description/shtopornyie-ispyitaniya-i-14-i-16-i-ip-1.htm]
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 1 February 2021 08: 37
    0
    And I thought this about the MiG-29, the most unlucky aircraft of the 20th century.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 April 5 2021 11: 28
    0
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    so when did this plane become so terribly out of date

    after all, it was an aircraft designed 7-8 years before the war with only minor changes in flight characteristics
    and even then, it was a dual-use car
    that's why it's outdated