Military Review

The myth of Stalin's "preemptive war"

239
The myth of Stalin's "preemptive war"
Tanks KV-1 on Red Square during the parade on November 7, 1941.


Attempts to rewrite and destroy the original history Russia and Soviet civilization, on the pages of books, on the air of TV and in the information field of the Internet, a myth was formed that Stalin himself planned to attack the Third Reich. Hitler's blow was supposedly just a "preventive" one.

Developments of Hitler's propaganda


The most famous author of this scandalous black myth was the traitor to the motherland, a former Soviet intelligence officer, defector Vladimir Rezun. He brazenly took the pseudonym Suvorov. Rezun presented the concept ("Icebreaker", "Day" M "), according to which the Stalinist empire in early 1941 was preparing an attack on Nazi Germany in order to capture a significant part of Europe, spread the" world revolution "and establish a socialist system there. The start of Operation Thunderstorm was supposedly scheduled for July 6, 1941. And the crushing defeat of the Red Army at the beginning of the war was due to the fact that the Soviet armies were taken by surprise by the Nazis, preparing to attack, not defend.

Rezun's works received support in the West as part of the information war against the USSR-Russia, so this version became widespread. In general, we can say that by now the traditional picture of the Second World War is supported only in Russia.

At the same time, liberal, pro-Western circles are constantly throwing mud at our history and actively spreading anti-Soviet myths. In the West, Stalin and Hitler, the USSR and the Third Reich were put on the same level, they are considered the culprits of the war. White was repainted to black, and vice versa.

Although in reality England and the United States are guilty of starting World War II no less than Hitler's Germany - World War II - a terrible blow of the USA and England to Russia, Germany and Japan... Moreover, they are already trying to show Hitler as a defender of Europe against the Russian, communist threat.

In fact, this is just a repetition of cliches that were created by Hitler's propagandists. The version cannot be considered new.

German politicians and the military were prone to certain stereotypes. They use the slogan "preventive war" almost always when they are going to attack someone.

Under Bismarck, these were Austria and France. Then this slogan was used in the First World War and the Polish campaign.

A similar fake was developed on the eve of the Russian campaign.

German lawyers tried to use this thesis to defend the German elite during the Nuremberg trials.

However, the facts of aggression were so convincing (A. Poltorak. Epilogue of Nuremberg. M., Voenizdat, 1969.) that even during the Cold War, Western propaganda did not use these tales of "preventive war".

The Soviet Union could easily repel such information attacks. Only during the period of "perestroika" and "glasnost", when everything that was possible, including outright lies, was used to collapse Soviet civilization, this myth received a new life.

In "democratic" Russia, this myth also went off with a bang. At this time, any lie directed against Russia and the USSR had powerful support from above. And timid attempts to tell the truth were choked in the most harsh way.

"Preempt Hitler"


"Reveals" of the Soviet regime poured in a muddy stream from all pages and screens. Lenin is a German spy, the Bolsheviks destroyed the empire and killed 100 million of the best Russian people, communism is an ideology of enslavement, Russians are hereditary slaves, etc.

After the collapse of the Union, the masters of the West set their ideologists and propagandists the task of breaking Russia. Desecrate, rewrite the past of the Russians, so that they can never restore their power. They became slaves of the new world order led by the United States.

Interestingly, Rezun's works were popular not only in the West, but also in Russia. They were widespread among the youth, patriotic environment. The fact is that the lie was skillfully woven by him and pasted into the basis of real facts.

In the eyes of an ordinary person, everything was logical. It was difficult to dig in. In particular, Rezun after "perestroika", when everyone in "democratic Russia" was throwing mud at the USSR, spoke in a positive tone about the Red Army, advanced military equipment, powerful Soviet intelligence, Stalin's successful policies, and the weaknesses of Western countries and Japan. In the book "The Purifications" he rightly showed that the repression in the army is exaggerated, and the purge did not weaken the Red Army (one of the myths of liberal Russia), but vice versa.

Rezun wrote that Stalin allegedly concentrated the Red Army for a strategic offensive operation, but kept it in complete secrecy. Only the People's Commissar of Defense Timoshenko and the Chief of the General Staff Zhukov knew about the operation. The order was planned to be given only after the complete concentration and deployment of troops. Hitler allegedly preempted the Russians by literally 1-2 weeks.

The problem is that it is impossible to prepare an operation of this scale within this period. Millions of soldiers, thousands of pieces of equipment and heavy weapons. Exploration, planning and supply. Such operations are preceded by a tremendous amount of planning and preparation. Tasks for armies, formations and units, reserves, front sectors, directions of strikes, tasks of the first and second stages of the operation, organization of interaction, support for artillery and aviation, reconnaissance, delivery of reinforcements, ammunition and food and much more. The work is then carried out by the headquarters of all levels: the General Staff - the fronts - the armies - the corps - the divisions. The corresponding plans, directives, orders are being prepared. It happens that such operations are prepared for months.

And then the Germans struck a sudden blow. Chaos, disorder, especially in the western (central) direction. The death of entire corps and armies. Rapid loss of vast territories. Many headquarters with secret documents fall into the hands of the Nazis. High-ranking officers are captured. Obviously, if the Germans received at least some real proof of Stalin's "preventive war", they would immediately announce it to the whole world. But they found nothing! Not a single document, not a single testimony from top commanders. There is only one conclusion - the concept of Rezun and others like him is a deliberate lie and rigging.

If Stalin, whom the enemies considered a great and reasonable man, had wanted to strike at Germany, he would have done it earlier. In particular, he offered England and France to jointly defend Czechoslovakia, then Poland. But the British and French refused, they wanted to send Hitler to the East, not fight him.

The French campaign was a great moment. All the forces of the Reich were on the Western Front. Germany did not have the resources for a long and difficult campaign. All hope for a short, lightning-fast campaign. Only 5 divisions remained in the East. For his rear, the Fuehrer was calm. However, Stalin did not need a war with Germany. The plan was different: to be above the battle that is taking place within the capitalist camp.

After the defeat of France, Hitler sets his General Staff the task of developing a plan for a war with the USSR with the aim of

"Destruction of the vital force of Russia."

There is not the slightest indication of a "preemptive strike" in the text of the directive.

By the way, the German generals were ready for such a war.

German generals were very afraid of war with the French and British, their combined military-material power was higher than that of Germany. After their triumph in the West, they no longer objected. Even in narrow, behind-the-scenes discussions, there is no alarm and gloomy forecasts.

German senior officers, according to the experience of the First World War and the intervention, did not believe in the revival of Russia, its strength. And the Finnish campaign seemed to confirm these conclusions.

The Wehrmacht easily crushed and occupied the leading powers of Western Europe. The losses were minimal. It was believed that the East would be an easy walk. Russia will collapse not only from the attacks of the Wehrmacht, but from the actions of the "fifth column", uprisings of nationalists and the betrayal of the ruling elite.

That is why the German generals seized on preparations for a new war with great enthusiasm.
Author:
Photos used:
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239 comments
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 05: 02
    +9
    to date, the traditional picture of World War II is supported only in Russia.

    So it is ... constantly colliding with foreign members of the forum from abroad, I read from them a blatant lie about the Second World War.
    In addition, reading the memoirs and biographies of German soldiers and officers, I have never seen in their descriptions about the preparation of the USSR for an attack on Germany ... everything was absolutely the opposite, the Germans were absolutely sure of their impunity when attacking the USSR. The Red Army was caught unawares by the Wehrmacht and this is a concrete fact. All the Rezuns and Suvorovs are trying to turn the facts over to the contrary ... nothing will come of them.
    1. Dodikson
      Dodikson 20 January 2021 05: 20
      +1
      the war customers were the Naglo-Saxons, they formed the Germanenorden and the Thule and Vril societies, that is, the mythological and ideological part lay in England (the Golden Dawn worked, its members were Bram Stoker and Bulwerl Lytton and others, no less smart people), but the states were financing , through the "Friends of Germany" and this was done as Woodrow Wilson said in 1918 to the question of why defeated Germany was allowed to pay reparations in stamps, saying that now Germany and Russia are in ruins, but the time will come and they will rise from the ashes and their (Saxons and mattresses), the task is not to allow this, but to pit them against each other and then finish off the weakened winner, for whose role they already predicted Russia. that is, Hitler with his Ariosophy did not initially have a chance to win. and therefore Hitler was given the swastika and ariosophy as an ideology with only one purpose - to discredit these spheres and make them misanthropic in the eyes of another world. although the Germans themselves have no more relation to the swastika than the Arabs to the Star of David. and are the same Aryans as the Arabs are Jews, yes, the Celts are related to the Slavs (r1a and r1b), but these are different peoples with different cultures, religions and ideologies (from there comes the struggle of matriarchy with patriarchy, collectivism and individualism).
      that is, mattresses with Saxons killed 2 birds with one stone, discredited a philosophy that was dangerous for them, attributing to it something that was not characteristic of it at all and eliminated two of the most dangerous geopolitical competitors
      1. A1845
        A1845 20 January 2021 10: 00
        +6
        All piled up as usual
        there was a plan for the strategic deployment of a border grouping of Soviet troops ("and on enemy land .." - everything is like in a song), which is not at all evidence of aggressive plans
        the actions of the German side in the pre-war period were sheer improvisation (to say the least)
        The actions of the Soviet side were quite understandable within the framework of the strategy of "gathering Russian lands", and the Soviet army was absolutely not ready for any "throw into the English Channel" (and some authors rave even more abruptly).
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 20 January 2021 12: 34
          -5
          The idea of ​​a preemptive strike was born briefly in early 41, when
          it was already clear that the Nazis would attack the USSR.
          She was born out of the hopelessness of the situation. Stalin after the Wehrmacht blitzkrieg during
          France and the overwhelming losses of the Red Army against the Finns disappointed
          in the operational capabilities of the Red Army.
          And they decided to choose the lesser of two evils: the Red Army trained to attack,
          but to defend - no. Hoping for a TACTICAL success in a preemptive strike.
          There was no talk of any conquest of Europe.
          Rezun mixed the optimistic plans of the Red Army in the mid-30s and
          a tactical plan for a preventive strike at the beginning of 41 in one plan,
          which is completely wrong.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 20 January 2021 21: 10
            +1
            The idea of ​​a preemptive strike was born briefly in early 41, when
            it was already clear that the Nazis would attack the USSR.
            She was born out of the hopelessness of the situation. Stalin after the Wehrmacht blitzkrieg during
            France and the overwhelming losses of the Red Army against the Finns disappointed
            in the operational capabilities of the Red Army.
            And they decided to choose the lesser of two evils: the Red Army trained to attack,
            but to defend - no. Hoping for a TACTICAL success in a preemptive strike.
            There was no talk of any conquest of Europe.
            Rezun mixed the optimistic plans of the Red Army in the mid-30s and
            a tactical plan for a preventive strike at the beginning of 41 in one plan,
            which is completely wrong.

            This is where it all started:

            Considerations of the General Staff of the Red Army on the plan for the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies.

            https://www.1000dokumente.de/?c=dokument_ru&dokument=0024_zuk&l=ru&object=translation

            Key phrase:

            Given that Germany is currently keeping her army mobilized, with rear areas deployed, she has the ability to warn us of deployment and strike with surprise.

            In order to prevent this [and defeat the German army], I consider it necessary in no case to give the initiative of action to the German command, preempt the enemy in deployment and attack the German army at the moment when it is in the deployment stage and does not have time to organize the front and interaction of the combat arms.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 24 January 2021 12: 44
              -1
              Quote: Arzt
              Key phrase:

              You make one mistake when, when citing an excerpt from a document, you completely ignore what kind of document it is, how it is drawn up, its fate and the further course of its consideration.
              If you carefully read the comment [16] to this document, then you would understand. that this is just a draft, which was not even reported to Stalin:
              [16] The document is a 15-page manuscript on standard sheets for a typewriter, written in black ink by A.M. Vasilevsky. The first page is on a letterhead with a corner stamp of the USSR People's Commissar of Defense. Dated on May 15, 1941 according to the inscriptions on the annexes - maps and diagrams (1941. Documents, vol. 2, Moscow 1998, p. 220). The text of the manuscript contains clarifications and corrections of a strategic, statistical and editorial nature, made in pencil. According to V. Danilov, they were introduced by the First Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army, Lieutenant General N.V. Vatutin (Danilov, Did Stalin Prepare an Offensive War against Hitler ?, p. 84). According to another version, the corrections in the text were presumably made by G.K. Zhukov (1941. Documents, vol. 2, p. 220). [[16]]

              You can imagine a situation where they came to Stalin's report with a document containing some corrections not certified by the people's commissar of defense and put it on the leader's table. Yes, he would have thrown such a "document" in their faces and would have demanded that they submit a document fully drawn up and signed by an official with the rank of People's Commissar, not Vasilevsky. As far as I know, there is still not a single exact evidence (even a reference number!) Of the existence of the original text of the "Views ..." that would have been considered by Stalin and at least some kind of resolution would have been written by his hand, on the basis of which the document would be accepted as a basis. If you manage to find it somewhere, or at least a link to it, then I will be very glad to know from you where you can see it. Although no one disputes the authenticity of the draft, these are indeed the working materials of the General Staff.
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 24 January 2021 17: 20
                0
                You make one mistake when, when citing an excerpt from a document, you completely ignore what kind of document it is, how it is drawn up, its fate and the further course of its consideration.
                If you carefully read the comment [16] to this document, then you would understand. that this is just a draft, which was not even reported to Stalin:

                1. There was a plan for the war between the USSR and Germany. It could not but be, otherwise the General Staff had to be dispersed.

                2. This plan was offensive in nature, close to what was said in this note. It could not be otherwise, our army, as you know, is the most offensive in the world.

                3. Suvorov-Rezun has collected in detail evidence of the offensive nature of this plan, which is why his books are so convincing.

                4. And then - a little lie that this plan was already going to be put into action. According to Rezun - in early July. A lie, not because Stalin was so peaceful, but because the war with Germany at that moment was extremely disadvantageous to us.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 24 January 2021 19: 58
                  0
                  Quote: Arzt
                  1. There was a plan for the war between the USSR and Germany.

                  There was no such plan. There is no need to invent something that was not even in sight, because even a government decree on the development of a plan for a war with Germany did not exist.
                  Quote: Arzt
                  It could not but be, otherwise the General Staff had to be dispersed.

                  The General Staff does not have the right to develop such plans without government instructions.
                  Quote: Arzt
                  2. This plan was offensive in nature, close to what was said in this note. It could not be otherwise, our army, as you know, is the most offensive in the world.

                  This is all speculation, because initially a government decision is needed. This is how the military mechanism works. And poems and songs about the Red Army are not the basis for the development of such plans.

                  Quote: Arzt
                  3. Suvorov-Rezun has collected in detail evidence of the offensive nature of this plan, which is why his books are so convincing.

                  Well, if you also refer to this balabol, then I don't see the point of persuading you in something.
                  Quote: Arzt
                  4. And then - a little lie that this plan was already going to be put into action.

                  Get your thoughts together and think hard. Well, if we assume that such a plan existed, then it SHOULD be implemented for several months and instructions should have been sent to the troops, according to which certain points of the plan should be carried out. Bring at least one document where instructions are given based on this plan and a link to it. Then he will at least talk about something with you.
                  1. Doctor
                    Doctor 24 January 2021 22: 02
                    -1
                    There was no such plan. There is no need to invent something that was not even in sight, because even a government decree on the development of a plan for a war with Germany did not exist.

                    From the spring of 1941, relations with Germany began to strain. This note is preliminary considerations. Further, the volume of information from various sources increased, so there is no doubt that the note was implemented into a plan.
                    And of course it was approved by the government, or rather by a narrow circle.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 25 January 2021 12: 21
                      -1
                      Quote: Arzt
                      ... This note is preliminary considerations.

                      Even the title of the document says that this is not a plan.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      And of course it was approved by the government, or rather by a narrow circle.

                      All the pre-war Government Resolutions have long been declassified, so Rezun, Solonin or Volkogonov would have long speculated with this resolution.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      But the disposition of the troops, their movement from the depths to the border, speaks of preparation.

                      The deployment of troops is just a set of components for further use, and which must act in accordance with the developed plan. We did not have such a strategic plan for June 22, because we did not know all Hitler's plans, and our planning could not take place without it. Even in the Wehrmacht, until June 10, they did not know when the war would start - so decide what we could plan if the Germans could completely change the configuration of the offensive groupings on our border in 10 days. And they could easily do it.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Moreover, preparing for the offensive, otherwise why would a district hospital be located in Brest near the border, for example?

                      There was a housing and barracks fund there, which is why they stuck as many units as possible into the Brest Fortress and city buildings so that the troops would not be frozen in winter. This is a common practice when mastering a new theater of operations.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Another thing is that they were not going to attack Germany, then Rezun came up with it.

                      That is why Stalin did not give the command to develop such a plan - he hoped to delay the start of the war, and did not want to provoke the Germans to start the war immediately. If Hitler had started the war on May 15-22, for example, we would have had a very bad time in the future.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      For example, a system for training military intelligence officers. Before him, they had never heard such a word - the GRU.

                      This is an obvious exaggeration, especially since he lied a lot in "Aquarium" - professional scouts laughed at his chatter, I know for sure.
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Nothing like this. For decades, there were plans for a nuclear strike against the United States and NATO. And offensive.

                      What other plans for strikes against the United States could we have drawn up before the early seventies, if our delivery vehicles had a cat to cry? But they could have inflicted a massive nuclear strike on us already in the fifties, which is why our country's air defense forces were developing so quickly. And how can we attack the United States if we did not have a common border?
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Rezun described everything correctly.

                      I think you are greatly mistaken in this.
                      1. Doctor
                        Doctor 25 January 2021 14: 06
                        0
                        We did not have such a strategic plan for June 22, because we did not know all Hitler's plans, and our planning could not take place without it.

                        We didn't have a plan for a war with Germany ...
                        It is interesting.
                        Well, what then be surprised at the results of the initial period of the war.
                        Everything became clear now. laughing
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 25 January 2021 19: 25
                        -1
                        Quote: Arzt
                        We didn't have a plan for a war with Germany ...
                        It is interesting.

                        Nothing funny - we didn't have such a plan.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        It’s you who got excited. SUCH resolution will be declassified in another 100 years at best.

                        The government decrees of the USSR of that time have long been all declassified.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Let's now locate a district hospital in Pskov, 20 km from the border,

                        Do you think we should have placed the hospital in tents outside the fortress? Moreover, in such fortresses, premises for hospitals are provided even during construction. And you do not know the staffing of hospitals, so the conversation is about nothing.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Ask the GSVG retirees where the red arrows ended on the maps in the mobile departments.

                        Actually, the "arrows" are not drawn by mobists, but by operators. So do not try to convince me that you do not know - I myself participated in all the exercises of the group headquarters for almost five years and constantly applied the situation to all the exercises, and I know what the legend was for them.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Most likely, he saw the approved plan in the course of his studies or knew about the details from the teachers.

                        These are all fantasies - there are no real documents in educational institutions, which is why Rezun lied like a gray gelding. Moreover, he studied at the military-diplomatic academy, and not at the Frunze Academy.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        And then it's a matter of technology

                        He wrote on the material that the British gave him. Just remember this for yourself, so that later military specialists will not laugh at you.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        But the disposition of the troops, their movement from the depths to the border, speaks of preparation.

                        They can stand in one place for years, and there will be no war - GSVG is an example for you.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        and just a little thought that the USSR was going to attack Germany.

                        He deliberately lied at the behest of the British customers. It could not be otherwise.
                    2. Doctor
                      Doctor 25 January 2021 14: 08
                      0
                      All the pre-war Government Resolutions have long been declassified, so Rezun, Solonin or Volkogonov would have long speculated with this resolution.

                      It’s you who got excited. SUCH resolution will be declassified in another 100 years at best.
                    3. Doctor
                      Doctor 25 January 2021 14: 14
                      0
                      There was a housing and barracks fund there, which is why they stuck as many units as possible into the Brest Fortress and city buildings so that the troops would not be frozen in winter. This is a common practice when mastering a new theater of operations.

                      You are a competent military man, well enough already!
                      Let's now place a district hospital in Pskov, 20 km from the border, there is also a barracks fund. And then we will try to tinker with rockets from the flanks under fire.
                      And Brest is generally ON THE BORDER.
                    4. Doctor
                      Doctor 25 January 2021 14: 17
                      0
                      What other plans for strikes against the United States could we have drawn up before the early seventies, if our delivery vehicles had a cat to cry? But they could have inflicted a massive nuclear strike on us already in the fifties, which is why our country's air defense forces were developing so quickly. And how can we attack the United States if we did not have a common border?

                      Ask the GSVG retirees where the red arrows ended on the maps in the mobile departments. wink
                      Or do you think they were going to defend Berlin to the last? laughing
                    5. Doctor
                      Doctor 25 January 2021 14: 27
                      0
                      Rezun described everything correctly.

                      I think you are greatly mistaken in this.

                      I don't think that Rezun was such a history buff and such a super-analyst that he suddenly began to just sort out this issue. Most likely, he saw the approved plan in the course of his studies or knew about the details from the teachers.

                      And then a matter of technology, he could not publish it, so he collected multiple circumstantial evidence from open sources and came up with a little idea that the USSR was going to attack Germany.

                      But this "little bit" changes everything.
                2. Doctor
                  Doctor 24 January 2021 22: 18
                  0
                  This is all speculation, because initially a government decision is needed. This is how the military mechanism works. And poems and songs about the Red Army are not the basis for the development of such plans.

                  Poems and songs may not be. But the location of the troops, their movement from the depths to the border, speaks of preparation.
                  Moreover, preparing for an offensive, otherwise why would a district hospital be located in Brest near the border, for example? Looking forward to further advancement.

                  Another thing is that they were not going to attack Germany, then Rezun came up with it.
                3. Doctor
                  Doctor 24 January 2021 22: 23
                  0
                  Well, if you also refer to this balabol, then I don't see the point of persuading you in something.

                  He wrote many things correctly for the first time. For example, a system for training military intelligence officers. Before him, they had never heard such a word - the GRU.
                  A common practice for defectors is to write a book about their life. wink
                4. Doctor
                  Doctor 24 January 2021 22: 30
                  0
                  Get your thoughts together and think hard. Well, if we assume that such a plan existed, then it SHOULD be implemented for several months and instructions should have been sent to the troops, according to which certain points of the plan should be carried out.

                  Nothing like this. For decades, there were plans for a nuclear strike against the United States and NATO. And offensive.
                  But there was no command.
                  Rezun described everything correctly. Except for one thing - I figured out that the team entered.
                  This is the trick. winked
        2. Chack wessel
          Chack wessel 24 January 2021 09: 05
          +1
          Quote: "Rezun mixed the optimistic plans of the Red Army in the mid-30s and
          a tactical plan for a preventive strike at the beginning of 41 in one plan,
          which is completely wrong. "

          What kind of "optimistic" fees did the Red Army have in the 30s? The USSR was a poverty-stricken country with an impoverished army with impoverished weapons and a population of 500 tons (EMNIP), with a militia-territorial system. Not up to optimism.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 20 January 2021 13: 36
        +4
        Quote: A1845
        there was a plan for the strategic deployment of a border grouping of Soviet troops ("and on enemy land .." - everything is like in a song), which is not at all evidence of aggressive plans

        Quite right, even the presence of such a plan does not mean that a war plan has been developed and approved. This is just an element of pre-war planning and nothing more.

        Quote: A1845
        the actions of the German side in the pre-war period were sheer improvisation (to say the least)

        With this I cannot agree, if only because the Reichswehr trained not only officers, but also soldiers very well. Therefore, it is very difficult to believe that the whole war against the USSR was a complete improvisation - it is enough to study at least the documents of Germany's pre-war planning.
        Quote: A1845
        The actions of the Soviet side were quite understandable within the framework of the strategy of "gathering Russian lands", and the Soviet army was absolutely not ready for any "throw into the English Channel" (and some authors rave even more abruptly).

        I also agree with this - no one denied the "Curzon line", and they did not even rave about the rush to the English Channel, knowing what the Finnish had cost us. Not only was the army not ready for this, but the country's economy would not have been able to withstand such a war.
        1. Machito
          Machito 21 January 2021 03: 10
          +3
          Quote: ccsr
          Quote: A1845
          there was a plan for the strategic deployment of a border grouping of Soviet troops ("and on enemy land .." - everything is like in a song), which is not at all evidence of aggressive plans

          Quite right, even the presence of such a plan does not mean that a war plan has been developed and approved. This is just an element of pre-war planning and nothing more.

          Quote: A1845
          the actions of the German side in the pre-war period were sheer improvisation (to say the least)

          With this I cannot agree, if only because the Reichswehr trained not only officers, but also soldiers very well. Therefore, it is very difficult to believe that the whole war against the USSR was a complete improvisation - it is enough to study at least the documents of Germany's pre-war planning.
          Quote: A1845
          The actions of the Soviet side were quite understandable within the framework of the strategy of "gathering Russian lands", and the Soviet army was absolutely not ready for any "throw into the English Channel" (and some authors rave even more abruptly).

          I also agree with this - no one denied the "Curzon line", and they did not even rave about the rush to the English Channel, knowing what the Finnish had cost us. Not only was the army not ready for this, but the country's economy would not have been able to withstand such a war.

          The General Staff, on the basis of intelligence, plans both defensive and offensive actions of the army, depending on the actions taken by the enemy.
          This in no way confirms Rezun's false theory. History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood. Whatever plans the military makes, the decision is made by the country's political leadership. Stalin did not decide to attack Nazi Germany. It was Hitler who made the decision to attack the USSR. The decision to attack the USSR was made in December 1940, and for half a year Germany and its allies were systematically preparing for war, transferring troops to our border, developing plans for military operations at headquarters at all levels up to divisions, regiments and battalions. The author rightly points out that in the event of preparations for a surprise attack by the USSR on Germany, our headquarters would carry out similar work with the preparation of plans, maps, and other working documents. After the attack on the USSR, the Wehrmacht surrounded most of the troops of our border grouping, destroyed, captured, captured our headquarters, but the Nazis failed to find documents on the preparation of the USSR for a preemptive strike against Germany.
          Hitler's European Union, which includes almost all the countries that make up the European Union today, rallied around its leader, the fascist, to destroy the USSR, Russians, Russia, and other peoples with the aim of robbing and seizing our lands. It is wrong to blame only the Germans for the barbaric destruction of our people. All Europeans are to blame. All Europeans are fascists.
          75 years have passed since that war. But what do we see? Another European Union is preparing to attack us, destroy our people, seize our lands and wealth. We need to strengthen our defenses and warn the European Union fascists that in the event of another attack on our country, their states and peoples will be destroyed by 100%.
          We are peaceful people, but our armored train is on a side track.
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 20 February 2021 12: 26
          +1
          Quote: ccsr
          With this I cannot agree, if only because the Reichswehr trained not only officers, but also soldiers very well. Therefore, it is very difficult to believe that the whole war against the USSR was a complete improvisation - it is enough to study at least the documents of Germany's pre-war planning.

          The Germans had a war plan designed for a maximum of 4-5 months.
          therefore, everything after October 41 is improvisation by definition
          But according to the stories of Guderian and other officers, improvisation began around the 3rd week of the war. Moreover, the plan not only changed - the troops could receive completely contradictory orders. Just ask you not to confuse the offensive schedule with the war and offensive plan.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 20 February 2021 16: 44
            0
            Quote: yehat2
            The Germans had a war plan designed for a maximum of 4-5 months.

            This was their fatal mistake, because they did not take into account the military potential of the USSR, and were too self-confident when developing a war plan.
            Quote: yehat2
            therefore, everything after October 41 is improvisation by definition

            Improvisation probably began even earlier - in August, near Smolensk, when the German plans had to be adjusted. Although you can take several events of 1941, not to mention the battle near Moscow.
            Quote: yehat2
            But according to the stories of Guderian and other officers, improvisation began around the 3rd week of the war.

            Yes, it was - at least this can be understood from some reports to Berlin, where alarming notes began to slip that the war plan was already being thwarted.
            Quote: yehat2
            Just ask you not to confuse the offensive schedule with the war and offensive plan.

            I know the difference, that's why I don't understand those who shout that Stalin had a plan of war against Germany, but Hitler got ahead of him.
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 20 January 2021 13: 10
      +3
      .... defame these areas .......
      Where did you read this? You guessed it yourself?
      The swastika is an ancient symbol found literally all over the world. The symbol of world cycles, cyclicality, movement of energy, in the human body, in Nature, in Space. 4 elements revolve around the center.
      I doubt Hitler wanted to defame the ancient symbol! I suppose that he considered his teaching great and wanted to show it to everyone. Also runes, werewolves, an appeal to the ancient Gods, mass shootings on the full moon and new moon, underground sanctuaries, torchlight processions (luminous figures of the swastika from SS columns)
      1. Dodikson
        Dodikson 20 January 2021 18: 23
        +2
        1) the swastika is the first religious symbol and it was purely solar, there were no 4 elements anywhere near.
        the swastika has 2 types, right and left-sided, and means the gender of the wearer (among the Mari, the usual (such as German) swastika still serves as an ornament for men's clothing, the reverse swastika adorns women's clothing) and goes from another single culture to the division of R1 into different branches , r1b, after separation, adopted a different culture and vector of development and a star became their symbol. the swastika remained the symbol of the Aryans who are r1a.
        Germans are 2 different peoples - the western ones are the Celts, the eastern ones are the Slavs (see the genetic map of Germany) who were united under one artificial language and religion (they are doing the same with kakla now, they come up with a new language and faith, as well as history and there so the same 2 different peoples for the Westerners are the same Celts, Galicia comes from the word Gaul, you can even look at their genetic map, the same r1b is true, the share is much less, but according to the logic it should be minuscule).
        2) all cults, beliefs and even the interpretation of rune alphabets in Germany was artificial and created by the British, moreover, they had a distorted form, that is, they took some kind of ancient tradition and turned inside out, so in Wewelsburg they worshiped the black Sun, which is the essence of Saturn, there is such a confusing story that just won't fit in one post, you can write a whole book there.
    3. andrew42
      andrew42 20 January 2021 16: 17
      +4
      I absolutely agree with the conceptual victory of the "Anglo-Saxons" (although this is the name of the slaves, not their masters), regarding the capital denigration of the origins of the Indo-European (Aryan) civilization. Here the gentlemen "usurers" have a complete and unconditional victory, Hitler did an excellent job for them, unleashing a war against the most powerful ethnic group of the Aryans, discrediting cultural layers up to Sanskrit, not to mention the millennia-old swastika symbolism of the peoples of Eurasia. We got such a paradox that in Shaolin I easily buy a statuette of Buddha with a black fascia on my forehead (yes, by that very Hitler's cross "4-G"!), And in Russia, for a great-grandmother's towel with red roosters and "saffron milk caps" (also a swastika ) I have a certain number of years. This is a grandiose conceptual defeat of healthy forces on the guard of deep traditions. Should we be surprised today at the ban on "dad" / "mom" in the US Senate !? - One of the end links of one chain.
  2. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 05: 38
    +5
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    Also reading memoirs

    If it comes to that, the Germans also had different memoirs. Reading SS General Kurt Meyer "German Grenadiers", the commander of the Hitler Youth tank division, "I sensed that lies are intertwined with truth. Well, I don’t believe that ours carved a swastika on the backs of German soldiers. By the way, I read somewhere that West German generals sculpted his memoirs, during the Cold War, commissioned by the Americans, where the Red Army was presented in the most unattractive form.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 20 January 2021 07: 10
      +11
      Quote: Mordvin 3
      that there is a lie intertwined with truth. Well, I do not believe that ours carved a swastika on the backs of German soldiers.
      Well, the SS general confused the swastika on the backs of the Germans with the carved stars on the backs of our soldiers, these are Germans, and they and their documents have more faith! Sarcasm, if that.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 07: 22
        +2
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Well, the SS general confused the swastika on the backs of the Germans with the carved stars on the backs of our soldiers, these are Germans, and they and their documents have more faith! Sarcasm, if that.

        No, he wrote that this was how the NKVD troops committed atrocities. And in general, he presents our army as a crowd of idiots who were taken prisoner in batches, and the Americans - as a serious enemy. It was he who fought in Normandy at the end of the war. Since 44, that is, together with his Hitler Youth.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 20 January 2021 07: 34
          +10
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          It was he who fought in Normandy at the end of the war. Since 44, that is, together with his Hitler Youth.
          It is clear that usually such revelations are written by those who in the East (for Nazi Germany) did not fight and did not even see it. The hardened panzer Otto Carius has the opposite written. ))
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 07: 56
            +4
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It is clear that usually such revelations are written by those who did not fight in the East.

            No, he fought half a war on the Eastern Front (in the Army Group South, Crimea took, Kharkov), and from the 44th to the Western Front he was transferred. His memoirs frankly smell like an American one. IMHO. Yes, read it yourself, I personally disgusted reading them.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 20 January 2021 08: 02
              +1
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              No, he fought half a war on the Eastern Front
              I haven't read it, that's why I assumed, well, that means he is also frank nonsense.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 08: 08
                +1
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                I haven't read it, that's why I assumed, well, that means he is also frank nonsense.

                Before us lay the naked bodies of a mercilessly hacked company of German soldiers. Their hands were tied with wire. Wide eyes were staring at us. The officers of this company found an even more brutal death. They lay a couple of meters away from their comrades. We found their bodies torn to pieces and trampled underfoot.

                Here is an excerpt from his opuses. It is somewhere near Rivne, in July 41.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 20 January 2021 08: 09
                  +5
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  We found their bodies torn to pieces and trampled underfoot.

                  What a nationalist, he didn't find any teeth marks there ?!
            2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 09: 57
              +4
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              His memoirs frankly smell like an American one. IMHO.

              I don't think there is any "American order" taking place there. Panzermeier was the secretary of the HIAG (this is the union of mutual assistance of SS veterans) and was involved in the rehabilitation of the Waffen SS and equalizing them in rights with the Wehrmacht. Therefore, I believe he truly believed in what he wrote. The leitmotif of his memoir (concerning the Eastern Front) - "We were real soldiers, and they were a wild Mongol horde, which were driven to slaughter by fanatical commissars." I agree with you - it's disgusting to read this nonsense. And yet Panzermeier was an outstanding commander. He was the first from Leibstandart to be awarded the Knights' LCD for Greece - after all, it means something.
            3. Grim Reaper
              Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 22: 26
              +2
              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              It is clear that usually such revelations are written by those who did not fight in the East.

              , I personally disgusted them to read them.

              I have not read a single "memoir" from the Germans and will not read it. From the word "never" Why did you read this muck ?. Write what was disgusting. Were you forced? Or "mice squeaked, but continued to eat cactus" Sorry, for me this is a sore subject.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 22: 30
                0
                Quote: Grim Reaper
                Why did you read this muck ?. Write what was disgusting. Were you forced? Or "mice squeaked, but continued to eat cactus" Sorry, for me this is a sore subject.

                On the one that somehow the dispute turned on the grenadiers, and I tried to delve into the topic.
                1. Grim Reaper
                  Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 22: 32
                  +1
                  Sorry again. I freaked out.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 22: 38
                    0
                    Quote: Grim Reaper
                    Sorry again. Freaked out

                    It happens. An SS officer wanted to shoot my grandfather in captivity, but for some reason changed his mind. Maybe because he did not humiliate himself in front of him. The Germans were all the same different.
                    1. Grim Reaper
                      Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 22: 53
                      +2
                      And I have neither grandfather nor grandmother ... Of course they were. But they didn't manage to look at their grandson ... Therefore, I will not divide the Germans into different and not different. If ...
                2. Grim Reaper
                  Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 22: 35
                  +1
                  For me, the subject of the Second World War is very painful.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. motorized rifle
    motorized rifle 20 January 2021 15: 45
    +4
    Well, here's a fact.

    An entry from Goebbels' diary of June 16, 1941. The diary entry can in no way be considered propaganda material: “The Fuehrer explains to me the situation in detail: the offensive on Russia will begin when our deployment ends. This will happen within a week ... The Russians have gathered right at the border, this is for us the best that could have happened. If they, dispersed, retreat into the interior of the country, they will pose a great danger. They have 180-200 divisions, perhaps even fewer, in any case approximately as many as we have. In personnel and technical terms, they cannot even be compared with us ... The Fuehrer estimates the duration of the action at 4 months, I estimate it in a shorter period. Bolshevism will crumble like a house of cards ... We must act. Moscow wants to keep out of the war until Europe gets tired and bleeds out. Then Stalin will want to act, Bolshevize Europe and take over. These calculations will be crossed out ...

    Russia will attack us if we become weak, and then we will get a war on two fronts, which we prevent with this preventive action. Only then will we have a free rear ...

    We must also attack Russia to free the people. An undefeated Russia ties up 150 divisions that we urgently need for the war economy. It needs to be strengthened in order to implement programs for the production of weapons, submarines and aircraft, then the United States will not be able to do anything to us. We have materials, raw materials and machines for three-shift work, but we do not have enough people. If Russia is defeated, we will be able to free up entire draft age and build, arm, prepare. Only then will it be possible to start an air war with England on a different level. The invasion is still unrealistic. So, we are talking about how to guarantee victory in a different way ... "
  5. Silhouette
    Silhouette 20 January 2021 21: 38
    -1
    Another empty article containing another fruitless attempt to refute, smash Rezun-Suvorov to smithereens. Instead of taking the same "Icebreaker" and page after page to refute the facts that are cited there on the basis of open sources, memoirs and memoirs of Soviet commanders of all degrees. And then refute the conclusions drawn from these facts. But no - again blah-blah-blah: show the document certified by the seal - then I will believe you. And if it does not exist (the plan to defeat Germany), then I don’t believe it! The impression is that the material was not written by Samsonov, but by some superficial blogger on Zen. A stamp on a stamp, a cliche on a cliche.
    1. Chack wessel
      Chack wessel 23 January 2021 16: 04
      +1
      Quote: "Instead of taking the same" Icebreaker "and page after page to refute the facts that are cited there on the basis of open sources, memoirs and memoirs of Soviet military leaders of all degrees. And then refute the conclusions drawn on the basis of these facts."

      Dear, you know how in Great Erefia people from that amazing country are determined where the pan is the nat. headdress? It's very simple - all those "icebreakers" and many, many other things were invented, or first of all ended up in the Russian Federation. Back in the 90s. In the Russian Federation, all this literature has long been read, and dismantled to a screw. They chewed, spat it out, and began to forget. But not to waste the good? Therefore, this ideological second-hand was dropped on the territories adjacent to the Russian Federation (Including Gloom Solonin). And now, almost 30 years later, the citizens of the Country of Pan, with this recyclable material, are trying to get into the Russian-speaking segment of the Internet, and pass it off as a revelation. This is ridiculous. :)
      P.S. And you eat, eat. Don't slap on it. :)
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 23 January 2021 18: 48
        0
        Quote: Chack Wessel
        And now, almost 30 years later, the citizens of the Country of Pan, with this recyclable material, are trying to get into the Russian-speaking segment of the Internet, and pass it off as a revelation. This is ridiculous. :)

        I fully agree with your assessment, but I do not agree with the timing - they began to do this even earlier, at least twenty years ago. There is such a shot Zakoretsky, a well-known Kiev fan of Rezun, so he even published several books proving how right this defector is. And he has a dozen of fans in Ukraine - though their fantasies revolve around Corned beef and Rezun, but they sincerely believe them.
        1. Chack wessel
          Chack wessel 24 January 2021 08: 27
          +1
          Before Zakoretsky appeared, Rezun had to appear. And Rezun's books first of all appeared in Moscow. "Ogonyok" in the same place. Ukro propaganda was very dull, and gave birth to "historians" such as Plachinda. Farm folklore, yes. :) ... However, it is not very important where Rezun was first noted ... What is important is that our friends are coming out with pleasure to eat this ideological secondhand ... Well, Senka and a hat. :)
  6. yehat2
    yehat2 20 February 2021 12: 16
    +1
    it is for you that they tell a lie, and from childhood they are told other information and for them it is true. Therefore, it is necessary to speak from the point of view of factual analysis, not hysteria.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 20 February 2021 12: 32
      +1
      for example, in the United States, schools say that the largest land battle was at Alamein
      But the forces that were involved there are 15 times less than under the Kursk Bulge and 20 times less than during the Berlin operation. And the intensity of the fighting is different. We have an operation like the capture of the island of Gotland - this is an ordinary episode that is little talked about, in the United States each capture of such an island is presented as a mega-battle.
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 20 January 2021 05: 06
    +2
    the German generals seized on with great enthusiasm.
    their enthusiasm ended near Moscow ...
  • svp67
    svp67 20 January 2021 05: 07
    +7
    Hitler allegedly preempted the Russians by literally 1-2 weeks.
    Just before that in SEPTEMBER laughing 1941 in the Moscow VO, exercises were to be held, the only mechanized corps staffed by that time. The main goal of which was to understand why we came up with such a thing and whether we could even manage such a mass of troops and military equipment ...
  • apro
    apro 20 January 2021 05: 18
    -6
    In general, we can say that by now the traditional picture of the Second World War is supported only in Russia.

    I would not get so excited ... the condemnation of the Moscow Treaty of 1939, the recognition of Poland as a victim of the USSR in 1939.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 05: 38
      +2
      recognition of Poland as a victim of the USSR in 1939.

      it would be necessary to recognize Czechoslovakia from Poland after the Munich agreement with Hitler.
      1. apro
        apro 20 January 2021 05: 43
        -7
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        I must admit

        And is there a possibility? Poland is a great friend of the sga. And they will not be happy. And the Russian government has other priorities. Gas ...
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 05: 52
          +1
          Is there a possibility?
          There are always opportunities, there would be a desire. hi
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 06: 52
        -4
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        we should recognize Czechoslovakia from Poland

        Admit it, it's a master's business and quite in the spirit of the Russian Foreign Ministry. True, the Czechs are unlikely to be so happy about your recognition.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 07: 33
          +2
          True, the Czechs are unlikely to be so happy about your recognition.
          Who will ask them ... then.
          The Czechs, too, are demolishing monuments to our soldiers in their own business ... quite in the spirit of the US State Department.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 07: 50
            0
            )))
            Are you going to make claims to Poland for Czechoslovakia instead of the Czechs? Oh well.
            1. Korax71
              Korax71 20 January 2021 13: 17
              +1
              Well, after all, they are showing mattresses for the bombing of X and H, instead of the Japanese themselves laughing although Mr. Yonai (if sclerosis does not change) called it a boon for his country. so anything can be hi
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 21: 17
                0
                Quote: Korax71
                Yonai (if sclerosis doesn't change) called it a boon to his country

                "By the gift of heaven", if I'm not mistaken. All the same, the Japanese expressed themselves gracefully.
                1. Korax71
                  Korax71 21 January 2021 08: 56
                  0
                  In principle, the essence does not change from this drinks even if we assume that this event had not happened, then they would have found something else. perhaps this is a national character trait, the legacy of the world's best education system, etc., here I have, for example, a lot of questions for partners, from WWII to the storm in the desert, but it has more to do with what they didn't, couldn't, or didn't want repeat
  • tatra
    tatra 20 January 2021 05: 43
    +7
    It is useless to wait not only for the truth, but also for logic and common sense from the enemies of the communists in the West, in Europe, on the territory of the USSR. They only have a BENEFIT in their mean and criminal purposes, and they do not care about everything else. So, they accuse the Bolsheviks of the exact opposite - and that "the Bolsheviks destroyed Russia", and that the Bolsheviks in the 20-30s returned to Russia the lands seized by their enemies during the Civil War. They also prepared Stalin so well for the war that he planned to attack Germany, but Hitler got ahead of him, and the fact that the naive Stalin believed that Hitler was an ally of the USSR, and would fulfill the terms of the Agreement of 1939, and did not prepare the USSR for war at all ...
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 05: 53
      0
      From the enemies of the communists

      Irina you, as always, are inimitable and recognizable. smile
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 06: 12
      -1
      Quote: tatra
      So, they accuse the Bolsheviks of the exact opposite - and that "the Bolsheviks destroyed Russia", and that the Bolsheviks in the 20-30s returned to Russia the lands seized by their enemies during the Civil War.

      )))
      You see, all kinds of people don't like the USSR. For different things.
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 20 January 2021 07: 37
      -3
      Quote: tatra
      that the Bolsheviks in the 20-30s returned to Russia lands captured by their enemies during the Civil War

      In elementary school, they will explain to you that in 20-30 years FROM the composition Russia have been WITHDRAWAL- rejected 4 million km2... By creating a bunch of sovereign republics that baked from her body like hot cakes.

      Which constitution of 1936 SPECIALLY stipulated their right to leave the USSR at any time.

      What happened.

      Today's borders of Russia were established exactly then - and this is a FACT.

      Author:
      a myth was formed that Stalin himself planned to attack the Third Reich. Hitler's blow was supposedly just a "preventive" one.

      This, of course, is absolute nonsense: there is not a single testimony of either ours or even German military leaders.

      From the standpoint of today's post-mortem, given that the war has been overcome anyway and in order to avoid a catastrophe on June 22, 1941, air and artillery strikes on the Nazis and their airfields prepared for an attack would, I think, be productive and would help to avoid, then the least of that terrible beginning.

      And in the eyes of the world it would look like a blow to the presumptuous, world-recognized aggressor and occupier of Poland-Germany.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 20 January 2021 10: 54
        +7
        Quote: Olgovich
        From the standpoint of today's post-mortem, given that the war has been overcome anyway and in order to avoid a catastrophe on June 22, 1941, air and artillery strikes on the Nazis and their airfields prepared for an attack would, I think, be productive and would help to avoid, then the least of that terrible beginning.

        For this we need another Red Army.
        For the scenario of "air strikes on airfields" was brought to life - at the end of June 1941 in Finland. The result is depressing. First, the airfield network was opened by about a third. Secondly, most of the bombers did not find even this third of targets and unloaded on spare (stations and factories) - with traditionally low accuracy. And, thirdly, the Red Army Air Force did not have fighters capable of covering bombers at full range - and where the Finns managed to raise their planes, ours were waiting for "Helgoland". By the way, the inability of fighters to cover the actions of bombers working to disrupt the enemy's concentration was directly written in the plans for covering the border.
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 20 January 2021 13: 27
          +1
          ...... the Red Army Air Force did not have fighters ...

          I read in the book, the author Marshal Novikov, that after WW1, and during the Civil War, our literally from scratch created a new, Soviet, aviation. It was very difficult to train aircraft builders, pilots and technicians. Civil first. Then --- Spain, China. And now --- Finland.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 20 January 2021 05: 58
    +8
    Stalin himself planned to attack the Third Reich.

    Another myth about Stalin, one of many.
    “Many deeds of our party and people will be distorted and spat upon, first of all abroad, and in our country too. ... And my name will also be slandered, slandered. Many atrocities will be attributed to me.

    from I. Stalin's conversation with A. Kollontai. 1939
    1. A. Privalov
      A. Privalov 20 January 2021 09: 07
      +7
      Quote: Crowe
      from I. Stalin's conversation with A. Kollontai. 1939

      Kolontai never met Stalin in November 1939. Yes Yes! So she wrote in her diaries:
      "even though I was in Moscow only two days, an order came from Vyacheslav Mikhailovich to fly back to Sweden at 6 in the morning. I never saw Stalin. It's a shame!"

    2. Avior
      Avior 20 January 2021 09: 55
      +5
      in an interesting place you put ellipsis
      Many of the affairs of our party and people will be perverted and spat on, above all, abroad, and in our country too. Zionism, striving for world domination, will cruelly avenge us for our successes and achievements. He still sees Russia as a barbaric country, as a raw materials appendage. And my name will also be defamed, slandered. Many crimes will be attributed to me.

      Do you believe that Stalin said that?


      in the PSS of Stalin 13 volumes.
      This, you will not believe it, is from volume 18 :) Thanks to Professor Richard Kosolapom, he creatively expanded the works of Comrade Stalin into 5 volumes. smile
  • parusnik
    parusnik 20 January 2021 06: 07
    +11
    The most famous author of this scandalous black myth was the traitor to the motherland, a former Soviet intelligence officer, defector Vladimir Rezun.
    ... No less famous author was the Soviet, Russian writer Bunich, Igor Lvovich, one of his books Operation "Thunderstorm" in two volumes. So Rezun was not alone.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 20 January 2021 10: 52
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      ...... So Rezun was not alone.
      hi lol well yes! Rezun was not very alone! Then they did a linguistic analysis of his opus and it turned out that it was written by several different people. To whom I ordered, whose solid help I used ... request
  • Avior
    Avior 20 January 2021 06: 17
    +4
    if the Germans received at least some real proof of Stalin's "preventive war", they would immediately declare it to the whole world. But they found nothing! Not a single document, not a single testimony from top commanders. There is only one conclusion - the concept of Rezun and others like him is a deliberate lie and rigging.

    It is logical to document and confirm the real military-political plans of the USSR at that time. That would be Rezun's most compelling rebuttal.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 07: 42
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      It is logical to document and confirm the real military-political plans of the USSR at that time. That would be Rezun's most compelling rebuttal.

      That there would be war, Stalin had no doubts; the commander of the ADD Golovanov wrote about this in his memoirs "Distant Bomber". And he was directly subordinate to Stalin. But ours were not going to attack Germany, as far as I remember from his memoirs.
      http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golovanov_ae/03.html
      1. Avior
        Avior 20 January 2021 08: 39
        +2
        These are all guesses and memoirs of minor participants.
        There could not be no direct documents with plans for the future from the top officials of the Politburo, minutes of meetings - they are for sure
        But for some reason they don't declassify
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 09: 03
          +2
          Quote: Avior
          These are all guesses and memoirs of minor participants.

          What are the minor ones? Golovanov was set directly by Stalin, Golovanov himself directly created the Long-Range Aviation, and constantly participated in the work of the government.
          "I am ready to be responsible for the truthfulness"

          A letter from A. E. Golovanov to the Central Committee of the CPSU to L. I. Brezhnev {1} and to the Council of Ministers of the USSR A. N. Kosygin {2}

          8 April 1975 city

          Dear comrades! ....

          ... Indeed, the book says more about Stalin than other authors, and this is completely natural, because I did not have any other leaders or bosses to whom I would be subordinate, except Stalin. Neither the General Staff, nor the leadership of the People's Commissariat of Defense, nor the Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief had anything to do with the combat activities and development of the ADD. All leadership of the military operations and the development of the ADD went only through Stalin and only on his personal instructions. No one, except him, had anything to do with long-range aviation. The case, apparently, is unique, because I know of no other similar examples. As for the GKO and other higher authorities, their decisions, and hence the management of the development and activities of ADD, are given in the book.

          Being systematically at Headquarters and being present there when solving many issues that have nothing to do with either the ADD itself or me, but are directly related to the conduct of the war in general, I witnessed the process of their solution, and some of them are cited by me in the book as representing, from my point of view, a certain interest and significance.
          1. Avior
            Avior 20 January 2021 09: 14
            +2
            Golovanov was not among the persons who determined the military-political strategy of the USSR in those years.
            And he does not write about it. At the beginning of the war, Golovanov was the chief pilot of the Moscow Directorate of the Civil Air Fleet, lieutenant colonel.
            We are talking about documents of those years, and you brought a letter from 1975.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 09: 57
              +2
              Quote: Avior
              At the beginning of the war, Golovanov was chief pilot of the Moscow Civil Air Fleet Directorate, Lieutenant Colonel.

              No.
              - May I go? I asked Stalin, believing that everything had already been clarified.

              - Wait.

              After a while, most of those present dispersed. Several people remained, including Molotov, Malenkov, Mikoyan.

              After walking a little, Stalin stopped beside me and said:

              - You, like any military man, need to know firmly for what, for what operations you will train personnel, so I want to tell you something.

              He walked over to the map. I followed him.

              “You see how many of our opponents are here,” Stalin said, pointing to the western part of the map. “But you need to know which of them is more dangerous today and with whom we will first have to fight.” The situation is such that neither France nor England will fight with us now. Germany will fight with us, and this must be firmly remembered. Therefore, all preparation you should focus on studying military-industrial facilities and large bases located in Germany - these will be the main objects for you. This is the main task that is being set for you now.

              Stalin's confident, calm tone seemed to emphasize that it would be just like that, and not otherwise. Not a word was said about the agreement concluded with Germany.

              - Is everything clear to you?

              - Absolutely everything, Comrade Stalin.

              This was the beginning of 41, that is, before the war. The next day, Golovanov became the regiment commander. Damn, read his own memoirs, I can't post the whole book here. In addition, it is very interesting.
              1. Avior
                Avior 20 January 2021 10: 42
                +1
                and why lay them out? these are not documents, and have nothing to do with what I wrote.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 10: 50
                  +3
                  Quote: Avior
                  these are not documents

                  Look for the documents yourself, I'm not going to do it for you.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 20 January 2021 11: 06
                    +1
                    excuse me, you misunderstood me, and I did not demand this of you in any way.
                    Moreover, I myself have never seen them, although I deliberately rummaged, looked for.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 20 January 2021 11: 30
      +3
      Quote: Avior
      It is logical to document and confirm the real military-political plans of the USSR at that time. That would be Rezun's most compelling rebuttal.

      If these plans were. Because a year before the war, it suddenly became clear that:
      1. By the time of the acceptance and surrender of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, there was no operational plan of war, operational plans, both general and private, were not developed and lacked.
      The General Staff has no data on the state of covering the borders. The decisions of the military councils of the districts, armies and the front on this issue are unknown to the General Staff.

      1. Due to the war and significant redeployed troops, the mobilization plan was violated. The People's Commissariat of Defense has no new mobilization plan.
      Regulatory mobilization activities are not completed by development.
      © "Act of transfer to NPO"
      1. Avior
        Avior 20 January 2021 13: 08
        +2
        this is purely military
        But military-political is a big question ...
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 06: 26
    -1
    Why did Mr. Samsonov burst into another opus? Somehow already completely without content.
    1. The USSR, of course, was preparing for war, and this preparation is described by the saying "diligence beyond reason."
    2. The fact that the friendship of the USSR with the Reich would end in massacre was written for 2 years by all European newspapers except, naturally, Soviet and German.
    3. It would be strange if the USSR did not have plans for military operations on the territory of a potential enemy.
    4. Who attacked whom in 41 is known and, in a rare case, it was not the USSR that attacked. And what he cooked there was in his own right. Roosevelt Vaughn, a rabid militarist, increased the American ground forces from 4 divisions to 27 divisions in the 39th 40th, it would be strange to make claims to him for this.
    5. The theme of the preparation of the USSR for war causes phantom pains only for one category of people - who continue to drown for "the treacherous attack of Hitler's Germany on the peaceful Soviet Union." Somehow they attacked the Soviet Union like that.

    How such people can exist at all is not clear, but they exist nonetheless.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 07: 38
      +1
      The topic of the preparation of the USSR for war causes phantom pain only in one category of people

      Are you talking about yourself or what?
      You lie, my dear, insolent way, there was no friendship between the USSR and the Reich ... there was a non-aggression pact concluded, mind you, after the Munich agreement of Europe with Hitler, followed by the partition of Czechoslovakia and Poland's refusal to let the Red Army through to stop Hitler.
      So the rescue of a drowning man is the work of the drowning man.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 07: 54
        0
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        there was no friendship between the USSR and the Reich

        Well there is no way.


        Quote: Lech from Android.
        So the rescue of a drowning man is the work of the drowning man.

        Saved with credit, yeah
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 08: 05
          +5
          I knew that you will show me the editorials of Truth smile .
          Show me the treaty between the USSR and Germany on friendship and cooperation ... it does not exist in nature.
          It does not fit like that with Stalin's request to Poland to let the Red Army pass through Poland. Once England, France, Poland refused to meet the USSR halfway there is no reason to blame Stalin.
          Themselves untied the hands of Hitler and Stalin, the only option was to delay the start of the war by concluding a non-aggression pact with Germany ... with which Hitler then wiped himself off.
          Well, the fact that Poland went for a snack ... well, excuse me with wolves to live like a wolf howl.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 08: 33
            +2
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            Show me the treaty between the USSR and Germany on friendship and cooperation

            Oh, yes, I forgot the agreement on the service. I'm getting old. Thanks for the tip.

            Quote: Lech from Android.
            Stalin's request to Poland to let the Red Army through Poland

            )))
            Comrade Stalin was always not averse to letting the Red Army through Poland. The problem is how to ask them back later. Gorbachev had to wait.
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 09: 55
              0
              One - zero = what a pain ... Washed away. smile True, later, as the winner of the USSR, he denounced this treaty. After the war, Comrade Stalin slaughtered Poland in additional territories, he was a kind man.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 10: 10
                0
                Quote: Lech from Android.
                Stalin slaughtered Poland additional territories,

                You mean the history of matches from 43.

                1. He cut the territory to the USSR, not to Poland. For Poland, he seemed to compensate for the cut off lands in the East at the expense of Germany.
                2. At that time, there was no understanding even at the expense of the NDP, not to mention the GDR. The solution that was implemented by Comrade. Stalin was guaranteed after the war by a dispute over territory between Germany and Poland. Actually, the topic of the territories occupied by Poland and the USSR was raised by the government of the Federal Republic of Germany until the 60s. I did not want comrade. Stalin of the Polish-Soviet friendship against the USSR, he can be understood.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 20 January 2021 10: 44
                  +2
                  and the matches were not his :)
              2. Avior
                Avior 20 January 2021 10: 13
                +1
                One - zero = what a pain ... Washed away. smile

                True, then, as the winner, the USSR denounced this treaty.

                can I also take a little part in the morning procedures? smile Just kidding
                The friendship agreement, like the non-aggression agreement, was annulled in the agreement between the Soviet government and the Polish government in 1941 - the so-called Maisky-Sikorsky agreement.

                And the borders of Poland in Tehran were determined by Churchill according to the rule of three matches
                hi
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 10: 55
                  +1
                  Quote: Avior
                  determined by Churchill by the rule of three matches

                  Well, a little bit wrong. Comrade Stalin designated "the just borders of the USSR" (41, according to the principle "what is mine, what is mine"), as a result of which Mr. Churchill "compensated" Poland for these territories at the expense of Germany, which at that time was not a pity to anyone.
                  Mr. Sikorsky was against such a story, but no one asked Mr. Sikorsky. And a little later, he turned out to be a fascist singer at all, unexpectedly for himself.

                  So in general, the idea of ​​dividing the borders of third countries in absentia was not at all Soviet know-how, unfortunately.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 20 January 2021 11: 01
                    0
                    talk about it
                    Comrade Stalin slaughtered Poland additional territories

                    in fact, Churchill did it with three matches, and Stalin did not mind
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 20 January 2021 13: 43
              +2
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Oh, yes, I forgot the agreement on the service. I'm getting old. Thanks for the tip.

              You are getting old, don't even look at the dates, otherwise you would have seen that it was signed after the end of the war, when we had a GENERAL border of contact between troops. Quite a prudent step to avoid at least provocative shelling from the other side.
              So waving this document in vain is a common practice even for Nagorno-Karabakh.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 21: 19
                0
                Quote: ccsr
                don't even look at the dates, otherwise they would have seen that it was signed after the end of the war, when we had a GENERAL border of contact between troops. Quite a prudent step to avoid at least provocative shelling from the other side.
                So waving this document in vain is a common practice even for Nagorno-Karabakh.

                What does Nagorno-Karabakh have to do with it? There, too, someone signed a friendship agreement with someone?

                Besides, the friendship of the parties, you know, triumphed not only on the issue of borders. Read the text of the minutes to this beautiful treaty.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 January 2021 13: 44
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  There, too, did someone sign a friendship agreement with someone?

                  What kind of "friendship" is there between the two tribes to draw up an agreement? Friendship with a treaty only happens between great states. I gave an example that at the end of hostilities you still need to sit down and sign something in order to somehow stop.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Also, the friendship of the parties, you know,

                  Do not bother too much - this is a typical Treaty in the spirit of that time, no better and no worse than the Munich one.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Read the text of the minutes to this beautiful treaty.

                  All this is bullshit and demagoguery, against the backdrop of Munich. And neither Great Britain nor France in 1939 objected to Stalin's withdrawal to the Curzon Line, otherwise they would have declared war on us, like Germany. Have you heard about such an action against the USSR?
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 42
            -2
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            . it does not exist in nature.

            what illiteracy in the history of the native country ... bully
        2. Chack wessel
          Chack wessel 23 January 2021 08: 29
          0
          If all kinds of congratulations and valentines are considered a proof of friendship, then we must admit that at the moment the Russian Federation is friends with almost all countries of the world. Especially with the USA.
          https://youtu.be/5Ux1Xqarbvg и, особенно, с Турцией. https://youtu.be/AcmSrpj5Gx8 А то, что кто-то у кого-то сбил самолёт, и кто-то кому-то выбомбил к едрене-фене цистерны с нефтью - это всё сказки. И вся информация и о всеразличных санкциях - есно, сказки. :)
          ... This kind of evidence, which you brought here, can only deserve the attention of citizens of the state where the pan is the national headdress. SUGS, by the way. :) ... By the way, about SUGS - Ukraine, as it turned out, is the closest ally and friend of the Russian Federation: https://www.rbc.ru/politics/31/12/2019/5e0b22119a7947f1b62704d4
          ... The next proof of friendship between Germany and the USSR will be photos from the "parade" in Brest? :)
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 29 January 2021 03: 05
            +1
            Quote: Chack Wessel
            The Russian Federation is friends with almost all countries of the world. Especially with the USA.
            https://youtu.be/5Ux1Xqarbvg и, особенно, с Турцией

            Well, when and if the Russian Federation declares itself the savior of the world from Trumpism and Erdogism, it will be possible to return to this issue. In the meantime, you can be friends, why not?

            As for Ukraine, I agree with your assessment. An openly anti-Ukrainian state policy is a tradition in this country. However, this is not only a Ukrainian tradition.
            1. Chack wessel
              Chack wessel 31 January 2021 08: 19
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              As for Ukraine, I agree with your assessment. An openly anti-Ukrainian state policy is a tradition in this country. However, this is not only a Ukrainian tradition.

              Where did you see the openly anti-Ukrainian position ?! I gave you a link - sincere friendship and mutual understanding.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 31 January 2021 16: 53
                0
                Quote: Chack Wessel
                sincere friendship and mutual understanding.

                With the enemy.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 08: 39
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Somehow they attacked the Soviet Union like that.

      And that's exactly how they attacked. Don't forget that this was the longest day of the year and also a day off. What do you dislike about this picture?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 08: 51
        0
        You see, I will not say for June 22, but on Saturday 21st, the entire multinational Soviet people did not sleep on silk underwear (!) Under the images (!!!), but glued tanks on their 30 mechanized corps, and a lot of other stuff glued for the native Red Army. And then I didn't even dream, yeah.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 09: 23
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          You see, I won't say for June 22, but on Saturday 21st, all the multinational Soviet people are not sleeping on silk underwear (!) Under the images (!!!),

          This is a painting by Valentin Fedorovich Papko. He was born in 39 in the Cossack village of the Krasnodar Territory. What other tanks were produced there? And in general, it is believed that this kid in the picture is the artist himself, who at that time was 2 years old, and he painted the picture from the recollections of his parents. If you think that the USSR was completely rogue, then you are mistaken. About the images. From my grandmother, I still have an icon from 1928.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 10: 14
            -2
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            This is a painting by Valentin Fyodorovich Papko

            I know that.
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            in general, it is believed that this kid in the picture is the artist himself, who at that time was 2 years old, and he painted the picture according to the recollections of his parents

            )))
            How touching. When did the Junkers appear in those places, excuse me?
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            If you think that the USSR was completely rogue, then you are mistaken. Us

            Quote: Mordvin 3
            Cossack village of Krasnodar Territory

            "Kuban Cossacks" filmed not there?
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 10: 26
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              How touching. When did the Junkers appear in those places, excuse me?

              This is a painting, not a photo. By the way, there are such photos that if it were a picture, no one would have believed it.
              Keep a sweet couple.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 10: 39
                0
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                he painted the picture according to the recollections of his parents

                Quote: Mordvin 3
                This is a painting, not a photo

                That is, Mr. Papko whistled? What else?
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 10: 45
                  +2
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  That is, Mr. Papko whistled? What else?

                  And, say, portraits of saints on icons, is it whistling or not? As for me, the picture is quite normal, and life is described quite accurately. My grandfather lived in a similar house.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 20 January 2021 11: 03
                    +4
                    You can call and ask smile ... Papko is alive and well. Recently, his exhibition fell through due to the coronavirus.
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 48
            +1
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            If you think that the USSR was completely rogue, then you are mistaken.

            that is why the IVS introduced tuition fees ... bully
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 20 January 2021 23: 27
              0
              Quote: DrEng527
              that is why the IVS introduced tuition fees ...

              That is exactly how it is. In high school, starting from the 8th. 200 rubles a year in Moscow and Leningrad, 150 - in other cities and villages. Respectively - 400 and 300 - in universities. In year. This is from the decree of the Council of People's Commissars of 1940. At the cost of a bottle of vodka 11 rubles 50 kopecks. A teacher's salary is 750 rubles a month. Worker - 340. Roughly speaking, the payment was 2-3 bottles of vodka per month. Moreover, excellent students and good students got rid of tuition fees. In military schools, they taught free of charge. It is also free at factory schools. It can be compared with studying at a university, where my niece is now studying with a fee of 90 thousand a year. This is about 40 bottles of vodka per month for 250 rubles. So your rzhach is out of place.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 21 January 2021 10: 47
                0
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                Roughly speaking, the fee was 2-3 bottles of vodka per month.

                Quote: Mordvin 3
                Worker - 340.

                1) you have a curious currency, we count well in it ... bully
                2) you have a funny self-pork - the worker receives (340 / 11,5) = 29,5 bottles of vodka per month, now it is 29,5 * 250 = 7375 rubles, and is this a LOT for you? Eka you don't like Russian workers ... request
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                It can be compared to studying at a university, where my niece is now studying with a fee of 90 thousand a year. That's about 40 bottles of vodka a month for 250 rubles.

                The average salary in Russia in 2019 amounted to almost 37,9 thousand rubles / 250 = 150 bottles of vodka, i.e. 5 times higher than with IVS hi we subtract 40 bottles for the training of our niece, 150-40 = 110 bottles remain ... 3-plus times higher than with the IVS ... hi
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                So your rzhach is out of place.

                amuses you not wanting to think about your own data ... request
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 21 January 2021 10: 59
                  -1
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  amuses you not wanting to think about your own data ...

                  Well, what indicators have been achieved 80 years later. Seryozha ... In our city, 15 thousand a month are considered a salary. And even for 10 thousand there is in a 48 hour week.
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 21 January 2021 12: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Well, what indicators have been achieved 80 years later.

                    and you compare the salary of a worker in 1940 and 1914 in the same bottles - you will be incredibly surprised ... request and after all, under the tsar, children from skilled workers studied in commercial or real schools, naturally for a fee hi
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    And even for 10 thousand there is in a 48 hour week.

                    in the Russian Federation, the salary cannot be less than the minimum - so fairy tales are not needed ... request
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    In our city and 15 thousand per month are considered a salary

                    send to Eburg - they give a scholarship and in six months they will drive trolleybuses ...
                    http://www.ettu.ru/about/vacancy/
    3. DrEng527
      DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 46
      -2
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      How such people can exist at all is not clear, but they exist nonetheless.

      he is one of those whom nothing teaches - a barrel organ - as they put various agitprop nonsense into their heads at school, and continues request Again, then there will be mantras that there were few tanks and almost all old ones ... bully
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 20 January 2021 08: 03
    +4
    The myth about the preemptive war of the USSR against Germany is brought to light every time it is required to justify the aggressive actions of the USSR's neighbors - Russia. All NATO countries suffer from this, including "neutral" Sweden, democratic "Banderostan, whose prominent representative rides the cherry nine here on the site.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 20 January 2021 08: 12
      +1
      The myth about the preemptive war of the USSR against Germany comes to light every time it is required to justify the aggressive actions of the USSR's neighbors - Russia.

      They need to put Russia on a par with Hitler and, on this basis, demand money, compensation, reparations, indemnities from it ... whatever, as long as Russia repents and pays out of its own pocket to these swindlers and swindlers.
    2. RUSS
      RUSS 20 January 2021 20: 12
      -12%
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      The myth about the preemptive war of the USSR against Germany is brought to light every time it is required to justify the aggressive actions of the USSR's neighbors - Russia. All NATO countries suffer from this, including "neutral" Sweden, democratic "Banderostan, whose prominent representative rides the cherry nine here on the site.

      The aggression of Finland and Poland against the USSR in 1939?
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 21 January 2021 00: 25
        0
        Quote: RUSS
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        The myth about the preemptive war of the USSR against Germany is brought to light every time it is required to justify the aggressive actions of the USSR's neighbors - Russia. All NATO countries suffer from this, including "neutral" Sweden, democratic "Banderostan, whose prominent representative rides the cherry nine here on the site.

        Aggression of Finland and Poland against the USSR in 1939

        What happened before 1939? Peace and quiet, but God's grace?
        In the context of the events that took place in the period from 1918 to 1922, Soviet Russia was losing both territory and its citizens. This also applies to the western regions of Belarus and Ukraine, and Karelia.
        The overt anti-Soviet rhetoric of Pilsudski and his followers led to the disappearance of a country called Poland from the political map of the world in 1939.
        And the genocide, organized both by the army of Mannerheim in 1918, and by the Shutskor in the period 1919-1922. in Karelia, could not, and should not have gone unpunished. At least the USSR offered Finland a peaceful solution to the territorial issue.
        PS
        Why didn't you remember the "occupation" of the Baltic states? Didn't they prescribe in the training manual?
    3. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 23: 18
      0
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      a bright representative of which rides a cherry nine here on the site.

      It is strange that the "six eggplant"
  • faiver
    faiver 20 January 2021 08: 58
    +2
    The article is kind of scanty, accusations against the myth have been expressed, the denial of accusations at the level of emotions, this article is more likely a place in the "opinion" section than in the historical section, after all, history is a science .. hi
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 20 January 2021 10: 23
    +1
    In the west, Rezun's works are practically unknown to anyone, since nafig is not needed. "Icebreaker" EMNIP with a circulation of 5 thousand printed in total.

    As for the attack, I would like to remind the author that when Hitler began to bend Poland, the USSR tried to negotiate with both the Anglo-French and the Poles on joint actions. Simply because fighting on Polish soil is better than on our own. The Poles sent us, the Anglo-French were unable to negotiate. Obviously, from their point of view, the USSR, realizing that Germany will bend Poland, will be frightened and will prefer to enter the war unilaterally in order to move the front line from its borders. But Stalin then outwitted everyone and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, thanks to which the USSR did not go to war with Germany on its own, and was able to acquire a lot of things. This is precisely what the West cannot forgive Stalin.

    And when stupid people write that there was no need to negotiate, allegedly they would not have to fight alone in 41, they do not understand that France and Great Britain would not help us anyway, unlike the real story, where the Britons, at least the Reich, the Island was bombed and generally bogged down in the war so much that it is not so easy to get out.

    What Stalin did not guess was the fact that France would merge so quickly, but could have fought for 3 years as in WWI, and the USSR would have watched with interest.

    Well, if Stalin reached an agreement with the Germans in 39, then, in principle, he could not throw anyone. The USSR was supposed to be in the eyes of the other powers a country that fulfills its obligations with utmost precision. As a result, despite the difficulties of the 41st world powers in the mass were precisely for the USSR, and not for Germany. The same USA was going to fight for whoever they attacked. And this is what the USSR would do if the Americans joined in for Germany in one form or another, another question.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 20 January 2021 10: 46
    +5
    The French campaign was a great moment. All the forces of the Reich were on the Western Front. Germany did not have the resources for a long and difficult campaign. All hope for a short, lightning-fast campaign. Only 5 divisions remained in the East. For his rear, the Fuehrer was calm. However, Stalin did not need a war with Germany. The plan was different: to be above the battle that is taking place within the capitalist camp.

    Everything is easier - in the spring and summer of 1940, Comrade Stalin got acquainted with the results of the Soviet-Finnish war. And these results were disappointing: it suddenly became clear that the USSR did not have a modern army. The real state of affairs in the Red Army is clearly evidenced by the fact that as a result of the victorious war, the unsinkable comrade Voroshilov flew out of his post.
    To understand what the Red Army was like in 1940, it is enough to open the "Act of Acceptance of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR Timoshenko S. K. from Voroshilov K. Ye." But this is only a consolidated act of NGOs, documents of a lower level paint an even more unsightly picture.
    1. Avior
      Avior 20 January 2021 11: 22
      +1
      And what is Stalin planning to do next? For some reason, there are no documents on this score.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 20 January 2021 11: 40
        +6
        Quote: Avior
        And what is Stalin planning to do next?

        Sit quietly, do not rush into the eyes, chop potatoes. © smile
        Seriously, until the middle of 1942 the USSR planned to forcefully correct the mistakes of the previous two decades: to form, train and re-equip the armed forces. As a result, in the summer of 1941 the Red Army was in a "half-disassembled" form:
        - the mechanized corps are coordinated at the battalion level, the OShS will be adjusted based on the results of the September 1941 exercises, no one has a complete set of equipment, no personnel;
        - rifle divisions - the same picture of formation, rearmament and coordination, burdened by the transfer of the best cadres of junior command personnel to the BTV and the Air Force;
        - The Air Force is a complete chaos: the regiments are massively retraining for new equipment, the airfield network is put under modernization (the plan of 1940 and the plan of 1941, which was previously disrupted by the Air Force, are being implemented at once), the BAO and the rear in general are being reformed from top to bottom.
        1. Avior
          Avior 20 January 2021 11: 53
          0
          Seriously, until the middle of 1942 the USSR was planning

          yes, I read that.
          But there are no documents on what is next? not to fight with anyone, to fight, and if to fight then with whom?
        2. Avior
          Avior 20 January 2021 11: 56
          +1
          Seriously, until the middle of 1942 the USSR was planning

          yes, I read that.
          But there are no documents on what is next? not to fight with anyone, to fight, and if to fight then with whom?
        3. DrEng527
          DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 57
          -3
          Quote: Alexey RA
          until mid-1942, the USSR was planning

          do you mean the USSR IVS? This only speaks of his stupidity - to give up France to be devoured means to be alone not just with Germany, but also with its united Europe ... At the same time, the "fearful" IVS through the mouth of Molotov in December 1940 wanted:
          "In Berlin and during subsequent diplomatic negotiations with the German ambassador in Moscow, Mr. Molotov made the following demands:
          1) The Soviet Union wants to give Bulgaria a guarantee and, in addition, to conclude a pact of mutual assistance with this state on the model of the pacts concluded with the Baltic states, i.e. with the provision of military bases, and Mr. Molotov said that there would be no interference in the internal affairs of Bulgaria. The visit of the Russian commissar Sobolev to Sofia, which took place at the same time, also served this goal.
          2) The Soviet Union demands the conclusion of an agreement with Turkey in order to create bases for the land and naval forces of the USSR on the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles on the basis of a long-term lease 4). In the event that Turkey does not agree to this, Germany and Italy will have to support Russian diplomatic measures to force Turkey to agree. These demands were aimed at establishing USSR domination in the Balkans.
          3) The Soviet Union said that it still felt the threat from Finland and therefore demanded that Germany completely surrender Finland to it, which practically meant the occupation of this country and the extermination of the Finnish people. "Http://www.hrono.ru/dokum/ 194_dok / 1941nota.php
          Do not find that your thesis
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Sit quietly, do not rush into the eyes, chop potatoes

          somewhat stretched over the globe? hi
          Quote: Alexey RA
          As a result, in the summer of 1941 the Red Army was in a "half-disassembled" form:

          What again speaks of madness (stupidity, betrayal - choose any word) of the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army - the army must be ready for the summer campaign - there is a war in Europe! For example, the fleet modernized its old aircraft in winter ... hi What prevented the formation of 29MK not immediately, but in waves! Some MCs are being formed, others are undergoing combat coordination, etc. I'm not even talking about the number of MKs - for which the USSR simply did not have the resources ...
          1. Chack wessel
            Chack wessel 23 January 2021 09: 02
            +1
            Quote: "Do you mean the USSR as an IVS? This only speaks of its stupidity - to give up France to be devoured means to be alone not just with Germany, but also with its united Europe ..."

            To give France to be devoured, you need one little - you must have it.

            Quote: "What prevented the formation of 29МК at once, but in waves!"

            The fact that not "waves" are needed, but 29 corps ... And each time rewriting the Plans is a very difficult task: "Today we have 1 corps, so we act like this, tomorrow we will have ten corps, so we will act like this" well, etc ... No matter how it turns out worse.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 23 January 2021 13: 51
              -1
              Quote: Chack Wessel
              To give France to be devoured, you need one little - you must have it.

              if not a secret - what did you mean? request That at the end of May 1940 France will be against the Soviet strike against Germany? bully Alliances are strongest when there is a need for both sides ...
              Quote: Chack Wessel
              Making plans is a very difficult task:

              maybe that's why they should be compiled based on the availability of resources? And not from the wishlist? hi When the beginning. The General Staff of the Red Army writes in his memoir that he did not know the capabilities of the industry, this is somewhat strange ... request Or did he not know how many junior and middle tank commanders he had? How many driver and gunners? The timing of their preparation? Timing of combat coordination of units and units? Did he actually know anything?
              1. Chack wessel
                Chack wessel 23 January 2021 15: 44
                +1
                When I said that in order for the IVS to be eaten by France, it was necessary to have it, I meant that in order for the IVS to be able to give France to Hitler to be eaten by the IVS, it must be. That's all ... Okay. And what should the IVS have done so that "not to give France to be devoured"? Fit for her?

                Quote: "When the head of the General Staff of the Red Army writes in his memoir that he did not know the capabilities of the industry, this is somewhat strange ..." Our industry had a bunch of childhood diseases, and constantly disrupted the production of one or another weapon (for example, shells, tractors). In order to know the capabilities of the industry, one had to be not the General Staff, but Vanga. Alas ... You know, here PERSONALLY, oddly enough, it also seems to me that it would be better if I began to form not a lot of corps, but only those for which there is a match. (No, I'm telling the truth). But it only seems to me. :)
                ... Yes, yes, there were some mistakes in planning. But it seems to us from the height of the afterthought that everyone was fools. Both Stalin and Hitler (for him, finally, everything was bad). This is not the case.
                1. DrEng527
                  DrEng527 23 January 2021 16: 45
                  -1
                  Quote: Chack Wessel
                  I meant that in order for the IVS to be able to give France to Hitler to be eaten at the IVS, it must be.

                  in translation - the conversation is nothing ... request
                  Quote: Chack Wessel
                  Fit for her?

                  you are curious about the "logic"! According to it, RI in 1014 fit in for France at the cost of the death of 2A? Let me remind you that as a result of this, Germany had a Western front throughout WW1, and it was the main one, on which the French and British destroyed many Germans and themselves lost 2 million ... but thanks to the "brilliant" policy of the IVS in WW2, they lost at times less, but we are many times more ... request
                  Quote: Chack Wessel
                  and constantly disrupted the release of one or another weapon

                  maybe it was due to the fact that the plans were not real? request
                  Quote: Chack Wessel
                  But it seems to us from the height of the afterthought that everyone was fools.

                  if it's not a secret - you don't have cars, trained crews, walkie-talkies, commanders of all ranks on the 29MK, but you form them, and the stupidity of this approach is an afterthought? hi
                  1. Chack wessel
                    Chack wessel 23 January 2021 17: 44
                    +1
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    you are curious about the "logic"! According to it, RI in 1014 fit in for France at the cost of the death of 2A?

                    Before WWI, RI had an agreement with France. There was the Entente. In the 30s, the USSR proposed to conclude such agreements on collective security, but neither Britain nor France wanted this. The USSR did not have allies in the 30s ... And it was strongly necessary to fit in for France with vague consequences in the form of a "sit-down war", or separate negotiations between France and Germany on the Western Front and a bloody batch at 40, while knowing the low combat capability of the Red Army, which was demonstrated by the Soviet-Finnish War? Moreover, even if such an agreement existed, then after Munich the paper on which it was written could be used only for its intended purpose ... We must also remember about Japan. And Japan is an ally of Germany, and Japan turned its gaze to Asia only after the signing of the "MR Pact". I'm not sure that the Japs would sit exactly on the priest, and watch from the sidelines at the USSR attack on Germany ...
                    ... The USSR was not a bureau of good offices, and it was not possible to fit in for the one who fattened Hitler.
                    1. DrEng527
                      DrEng527 23 January 2021 18: 00
                      -1
                      Quote: Chack Wessel
                      The USSR had no allies in the 30s.

                      probably the French remembered about the Brest Peace ... request
                      Quote: Chack Wessel
                      while knowing the low combat capability of the Red Army, which was demonstrated by the Soviet-Finnish War?

                      And the defeat of the Japanese in Mongolia also showed this?

                      Quote: Chack Wessel
                      whether separate negotiations between France and Germany on the Western Front and a bloody batch on its own already in 40

                      those. the end of May 1940, separate negotiations of France? wink
                      Quote: Chack Wessel
                      The USSR was not a bureau of good offices, and

                      fit in for the one who fattened Hitler was not.


                      Quote: DrEng527
                      but thanks to the "genius" policy of the IVS in WW2, they lost several times less, while we lost many times more ..

                      hmm, reading and understanding the text is difficult for you ...
                      1. Chack wessel
                        Chack wessel 23 January 2021 18: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        probably the French remembered about the Brest Peace ...

                        Be that as it may, there was no union.

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        And the defeat of the Japanese in Mongolia also showed this?


                        The defeat was in Mongolia, and, precisely, of the Japanese. And yet, yes. Showed the low combat capability of the Red Army.

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        those. the end of May 1940, separate negotiations of France?


                        It could have been anything. From "sit-down war" to separate negotiations. But Japan's blow is more than real.

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        hmm, reading and understanding the text is difficult for you ...


                        You know, but I am generally illiterate and cannot read.

                        Okay. Let's say the USSR fits in for France. What's next?
                      2. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 24 January 2021 12: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        And yet yes. Showed the low combat capability of the Red Army.

                        you have a curious logic ... bully
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        It could have been anything. From "sit-down war" to separate negotiations.

                        the Franks have a chance to win, and they have to negotiate? bully Angles and in real life did not agree ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        But Japan's blow is more than real.

                        after H-G? They did not dare even in 41 ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        What's next?

                        whatever, just there will be no defeat of 41g and such losses in the USSR ... request In my opinion, the most likely destruction of Hitler by the generals and the conclusion of peace, while the Red Army manages to occupy all of Poland, maybe part of East Prussia. Partition awaits Germany.
                      3. Chack wessel
                        Chack wessel 24 January 2021 19: 47
                        +1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        you have a curious logic ...

                        Normal logic. You have a curious logic. For some reason, you did not notice that in the Soviet-Finnish war the Finns were also defeated, nevertheless, Voroshilov was replaced by Timashenko. The network has an act on the transfer of the Ministry of Defense from Voroshilov to Timashenko. Read it. An interesting thing. A good description of the Red Army.
                        ... And this is about clashes with the Japanese:
                        "According to the results of the entire operation, among the main reasons for unnecessary losses were called" inattention to reconnaissance and the inability to organize and conduct it directly, especially at night ... Our commanders and political workers, unfortunately, forget that the loss of an organizer and leader in battle weakens the troops, and inappropriate, reckless bravery increases casualties and harms the cause ... our infantry is poorly trained in joint actions with artillery and tanks. "
                        https://warspot.ru/2504-tankovye-boi-na-halhin-gole

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        the Franks have a chance to win, and they have to negotiate? bully Angles and in real life did not agree ...


                        The Franks and Angles had a chance to win in 1939. When Hitler attacked Poland. What? Germany on the one hand, Poland, England and France on the other. Not a bad balance of forces ... Nevertheless, France and England decided to sit out, although they had a mutual assistance agreement with Poland. The Poles did not like this. Later, the French and the British did not like it either. :) Duc who? Stalin or the Poles with the French and Angles?
                        http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1611504847/76905889/33078845.jpg
                        Finally, throwing an ally in time is a sign of a good European politician. :)


                        Quote: DrEng527
                        after H-G? They did not dare even in 41 ...


                        Nope. They did not dare after the Pact of Mr. :) They perceived the signing of this as treason on the part of the ally-Germany, and the government in Japan resigned, and Japan itself reoriented itself to the seizure of Asia. Pearl Harbor is the consequence of this reorientation. :)

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        whatever, but there will be no defeat of 41g and such losses in the USSR ... request In my opinion, the most likely destruction of Hitler by the generals and the conclusion of peace, while the Red Army manages to occupy all of Poland, maybe part of East Prussia. Partition awaits Germany.


                        And it seems to me that the continuation of the "sit-down war" in the West is most likely, observing the battle between the USSR-Germany, with the subsequent "cutting out" of the weakened winner all together. :)
                      4. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 25 January 2021 11: 57
                        -1
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        And this is about the skirmishes with the Japanese:

                        You are funny - under HG the Japanese were surrounded and defeated! And there are always shortcomings in the BP of the troops and they must be analyzed. I will note that the TBR marched without loss along the column tracks up to 700 km ... for comparison, the Germans in 38, when marching to Austria along the roads, lost up to 50% of the tanks ...
                        "The Franks and the Angles had a chance to win in 1939." by no means - you just do not know when the Franks were ready - they did not have time, and they did not want to fuss over the Poles - well, how did it end in 1940? The IVS saw everything, but did not draw any conclusions ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        Nope. They did not dare after the Pact of Mr. :)
                        those. the defeat of their army did not affect? bully

                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        And it seems to me that the continuation of the "sit-down war" in the West is most likely.

                        do you know so little about military history? request in May 1940 there was no longer a sit-down war, which is what I wrote to you earlier - a strike on Germany is possible ONLY after the start of the German offensive in France hi
                      5. Chack wessel
                        Chack wessel 28 January 2021 10: 51
                        0
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        You are funny - under HG the Japanese were surrounded and defeated! And there are always shortcomings in the BP of the troops and they must be analyzed. I will note that the TBR marched without loss along the column tracks up to 700 km ... for comparison, the Germans in 38, when marching to Austria along the roads, lost up to 50% of the tanks ...

                        Yes. Under HG, the Japs were flared up. But, with great difficulty. And if we remember about the German march to Austria, then we must also remember about the Soviet march to Bessarabia and North. Bukovina 1940. There everything was even sadder with tanks than that of the Wehrmacht ... Sobsna speaking, in the network there is an Act of transfer of the People's Commissariat of Defense from Voroshilov to Timashenko in 1940. The readiness of the Red Army is described in great detail in it. I, like, gave a link? If not, then here is:
                        http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/akt-vor-tim.shtml
                        We read and cry.

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        "The Franks and the Angles had a chance to win in 1939." by no means - you just do not know when the Franks were ready - they did not have time, and they did not want to fuss over the Poles - well, how did it end in 1940?

                        Sobsna speaking, I'm talking about this and I did not want to. :)

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        The IVS saw everything, but did not draw any conclusions ...

                        Just the opposite. The IVS saw that Britain and France "threw" their ally. And he made a conclusion.
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        those. the defeat of their army did not affect?


                        And what army was defeated under HG !?
                      6. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 28 January 2021 11: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        But, with great difficulty.

                        and it is always difficult to defeat a serious enemy ... request
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        There everything was even sadder with tanks than with the Wehrmacht.

                        will you give a figure? I brought ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        We read and cry.

                        About what? Besides, there is a military bureaucracy - to blame everything on the predecessor ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        Sobsna speaking, I'm talking about this and I did not want to. :)

                        and this, but in real life, it is more difficult, when the Franks became combat-ready, the Poles had already collapsed ... request This is the difference between RIA, which in 1914 prevented the defeat of France without full concentration ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        The IVS saw that Britain and France "threw" their ally.

                        and did something stupid! Any front in the West is better than no front ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        And what army was defeated under HG !?

                        Japanese, or do you need a number? bully
                      7. Chack wessel
                        Chack wessel 31 January 2021 08: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: DrEng527
                        Japanese, or do you need a number?

                        That's exactly what "number" is. And the Japanese still had enough of such "numbers". But the entire Japanese Army was finally defeated, and not some of its numbers, only 2 Aug. 1945 At the cost of great efforts, and not only the USSR ... So getting a stab in the back from the Japanese in 1940 is not the best scenario.

                        Quote: DrEng527
                        will you give a figure? I brought ...

                        On the actions of the troops of the Southern Front during the liberation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina "

                        Report by the Commander of the Kiev Special Military District (KOVO) General of the Army G.K. Zhukov, a member of the Military Council of the KOVO 2nd Rank Army Commissar V.N.Borisov and the Chief of Staff of the KOVO Lieutenant General N.F. K. Timoshenko "On the actions of the troops of the Southern Front during the liberation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina", July 1940.
                      8. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 31 January 2021 14: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        But the entire Japanese Army was finally defeated, and not some of its numbers

                        not the whole, but the Kwantung Army request
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        only 2 Aug 1945

                        you don't know much about the history of Russia bully looks like a teenager ...
                        Quote: Chack Wessel
                        On the actions of the troops of the Southern Front

                        how many words instead of numbers ... bully
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 20 January 2021 17: 05
    +1
    No, why not? There are documents. Command post exercises in January-February 1941, which were conducted by G.K. Zhukov. The legend of the exercises - the attack of the blue (Wehrmacht) on the red (Red Army). Zhukov played for the blue, DG Pavlov, the commander of the Belarusian Special Military District, for the Reds. Zhukov showed Pavlov how they would beat him. Events after June 22 almost exactly repeated the command-staff game.
    There are two conclusions. First, the legend of the teachings. BLUE attacking RED, not vice versa. Second conclusion. DG Pavlov did not learn lessons from the exercises until June 22, and after June 22 he repeated his mistakes made during the command-staff game, and therefore, he received his 9 grams of lead quite in the business.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 20 January 2021 20: 51
      +1
      No, why not? There are documents. Command post exercises in January-February 1941, which were conducted by G.K. Zhukov. The legend of the exercises - the attack of the blue (Wehrmacht) on the red (Red Army). Zhukov played for the blue, DG Pavlov, the commander of the Belarusian Special Military District, for the Reds. Zhukov showed Pavlov how they would beat him. Events after June 22 almost exactly repeated the command-staff game.
      There are two conclusions. First, the legend of the teachings. BLUE attacking RED, not vice versa. Second conclusion. DG Pavlov did not learn lessons from the exercises until June 22, and after June 22 he repeated his mistakes made during the command-staff game, and therefore, he received his 9 grams of lead quite in the business.

      Did Zhukov get it? laughing
      1. boris epstein
        boris epstein 21 January 2021 17: 13
        0
        Even Eisenhower and Montgomery considered GK Zhukov the best commander of the Second World War. So I got it.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 21 January 2021 17: 37
          +1
          Even Eisenhower and Montgomery considered GK Zhukov the best commander of the Second World War. So I got it.

          Rezun disagrees with you. wink

          Let's not argue: there was a stupid, incapable Pavlov in Minsk. He did not know how to repel the German invasion. But in Moscow sat, towering high above Pavlov, the wisest military leader of the XNUMXth century. But an amazing thing: Zhukov managed to put himself in the place of Hitler and Hitler's strategists and predict their plans, but Zhukov forgot to put himself in his own place as chief of the General Staff and find a solution to the problem of the defense of Belarus and the entire Soviet Union.
  • Shiden
    Shiden 20 January 2021 12: 11
    +2
    Sorry, but you're wrong, the Red Army's unpreparedness for modern war was revealed on Hal-Khingol. Finnish only confirmed these results. As for a preventive strike on Germany, such plans were probably worked out in a rough version. Or how to understand that in the spring of the 41st General Staff drives a new mob-plan when the old 40th years have just begun to translate into an idea. Although the "Barbarossa" plan was already known to the highest military-political leadership of the USSR at the end of the 40th.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 12: 51
      +1
      Quote: Shiden
      Sorry, but you're wrong, the Red Army's unpreparedness for modern warfare was revealed on Hal-Khingol


      Let's give the floor to Comrade Stalin:
      After all, keep in mind that for the entire existence of Soviet power we have not yet fought a real modern war. Minor episodes in Manchuria, near Lake Khasan or in Mongolia are nonsense, this is not a war - these are isolated episodes on a strictly limited patch.

      17.04.40
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 20 January 2021 14: 07
        +1
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Let's give the floor to Comrade Stalin:

        Moreover:
        Our army did not understand, did not immediately understand that the war in Poland was a military walk, not a war.
        © he and in the same place, two paragraphs earlier than the previous quote
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 14: 14
          +3
          Quote: Alexey RA
          he is there

          But the code was quite major:
          We defeated not only the Finns - this task is not so big. The main thing in our victory is that we defeated the technique, tactics and strategy of the advanced states of Europe, whose representatives were Finnish teachers. This is our main victory.

          (Loud applause, everyone stands up, shouts of "Hurray!"
          Shouts: "Hurray for Comrade Stalin!"
          The participants in the meeting arrange in honor of Comrade. Stalin's thunderous ovation)

          Well, and comrade. Kulik announced a collective viewing of the film "Kutuzov". To consolidate, so to speak, the major finale.
          1. Shiden
            Shiden 20 January 2021 16: 09
            +1
            Sorry, but what comrade Stalin had to say that the Red Army is not ready for war. If you are such a connoisseur of history, please explain why such a leapfrog with mob-plans on the eve of the war. In my opinion, the German invasion of the Balkans caused such a leapfrog. After all, the Barbarossa plan is already at that time began to partially realize. If to argue logically, if Germany did not donate to the Balkans, then the TASS statement would have come out somewhere at the beginning of May. After all, Comrade Stalin did not know what he promised Donovan Simonovich who staged a coup in Yugoslavia.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 16: 59
              +1
              Quote: Shiden
              Sorry, but what comrade Stalin had to say that the Red Army is not ready for war.

              It is a question or a statement?
              Excuse me - Stalin said exactly that.
              Quote: Shiden
              In my opinion, the German invasion of the Balkans caused such a leapfrog.

              By the time the results of the SVF were summed up, there was no "leapfrog" in the Balkans yet. A serious "leapfrog", in fact, took place at the time of Stalin's speech in the opposite corner of Europe.
              1. Shiden
                Shiden 20 January 2021 17: 48
                +1
                You can logically explain the leapfrog with the mob-plans, it turns out not as a result of the Finnish war, but the political situation in April of June 41, why Stalin changes the mob-plan on the eve of the war. And if you reason sensibly and not appeal to what we now know from history. That is a logical conclusion Stalin was sure that Hitler lost time by moving troops to the Balkans. Stalin realized the danger only when Hess flew to England.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 20 January 2021 18: 18
              0
              Quote: Shiden
              In my opinion, the German invasion of the Balkans caused such a leapfrog.

              In February, it was decided to revise all plans in the General Staff in connection with the emergence of reliable information about the real timing of the German attack and the appointment of a new chief of the General Staff in the person of Zhukov. It was a huge amount of work affecting the operational and mobilization structures of the General Staff. As a result of this work, already in May, a directive was given to the border districts to urgently revise the cover plans until June 1. For the district mobists, no such instruction was received at that time, as far as I know. So the invasion of the Balkans was not the main thing for the development of new guidelines - this work began earlier.
            3. Chack wessel
              Chack wessel 24 January 2021 08: 42
              +1
              Quote: "Sorry, but what comrade Stalin had to say that the Red Army is not ready for war."

              No, yes. Stalin was not supposed to say that. Timashenko should have said that. And he said it:
              http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/akt-vor-tim.shtml
              Quote: "The combat training of the troops has major shortcomings. The orders for combat training tasks issued annually by the People's Commissar for a number of years have repeated the same tasks, which were never fully carried out, and those who did not carry out the order remained unpunished."
              Well, etc., etc.
              With such an army, it only remains to attack Germany. :)
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 20 January 2021 16: 28
            +1
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            But the code was quite major:

            Well, do not end the meeting on the results of the won war on a minor note. smile
            Moreover, before that the IVS had been listing for a long time what the Red Army does not have and without which it cannot be considered a modern army. He walked especially hard on the "sacred cow" of the Civil War.
          3. DrEng527
            DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 59
            +1
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            But the code was quite major:

            namely, and this is about the IVS "afraid" of aggression ... hi
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 20 January 2021 14: 09
      +2
      Quote: Shiden
      Sorry, but you're wrong, the unpreparedness of the Red Army for modern warfare was revealed on Hal-Khingol .......

      There is a wonderful poem about the Japanese war
      JOSEPH UTKIN
      KOMSOMOL'SK SONG
      The boy was spanked in Irkutsk.
      He is only seventeen years old.
      Like pearls on a clean saucer
      Teeth shone
      Him.

      I mocked him for a week
      Japanese officer in prison
      And he smiled all the time:
      Like, "don't understand" anything.

      His mother was taken to him from home.
      We took you once
      We took five.
      And he: "We don't know each other at all!" ---
      And he smiles again.

      Him the Japanese "Mikada"
      Threatens, shouts: "Admit it yourself! .."
      And beat the boy with the butt
      By the famous pearls.

      But the Komsomol members
      Under interrogation
      Don't be afraid
      And do not speak!
      No wonder the red order is worn
      They have been for fifteen years in a row.

      ... When the sleepy city falls silent
      And a thief comes to business
      In one shirt and pants
      He was taken into the prison yard.
      But the communists
      At the shooting
      Do not lower their eyes to the ground!
      No wonder people sang songs
      And they talk to children about us.

      And he died, accepting fate,
      As befits young people:
      Face forward
      Embracing the earth
      Which we will not give up!
      1. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 23: 35
        0
        Disgusting verse. Do you want me to like you 10 pieces a day? But I will never write:
        ...
        We turned the earth back from the border ... (c)
        As well as yours, Utkin. I don’t know who it is? Should I be ashamed now?
      2. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 23: 56
        -2
        I would rush to the pillbox
        Only the pillbox is not the same
        Why rush there
        If you can ..... ghm (s) me.
        Forgive God for the sake of readers. The articles pissed me off today. RUNNED OUT.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 49
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Everything is simpler - in the spring and summer of 1940, Comrade Stalin got acquainted with the results of the Soviet-Finnish war

    there were a total of wars with Japan in H-G, so you simplify - just the Finnish one revealed other shortcomings request
  • BAI
    BAI 20 January 2021 11: 53
    +2
    Hitler allegedly preempted the Russians by literally 1-2 weeks.

    For 2 years. By 1943, 30 mechanized corps with 1000 tanks each were to be deployed. And the tanks are T-34 and KV, not T-26 and BT-7. It is a strike force, not a defensive force. Why in peacetime 30 tanks? And the military doctrine (which failed miserably) - "On a foreign land, with little blood."
    And Stalin's toast at a meeting with graduates of the Academies in May 1941 about the inevitability of war also speaks about something.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 20 January 2021 13: 51
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      For 2 years. By 1943, 30 mechanized corps with 1000 tanks each were to be deployed.

      It is not true - only by 1947 it was planned to create all 30 mechanized corps, based on the peacetime weapons programs.
      Quote: BAI
      It is a strike force, not a defensive force. Why in peacetime 30 tanks?

      For our territory, taking into account the Far East and the threats of Japan, this is not such an exorbitant figure, if only because the length of the western borders and the weak infrastructure of the districts required finding armored vehicles closer to the border, to repel the first strikes - we do not have a density of troops on the borders enough. That is why they wanted to compensate for this problem with mobile equipment, for which they were placed in the PP in the second echelon.
      And Stalin's toast is about nothing at all - it's a congratulatory health resort, not an extract from the plans of the General Staff.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 20 January 2021 17: 02
        -1
        Quote: ccsr
        It is not true - only by 1947 it was planned to create all 30 mechanized corps,

        and Hitler would have waited ... bully however, GKZh specified other terms in the memoir ...
        Quote: ccsr
        we lacked the density of troops at the borders

        maybe it was not necessary to spoil relations with all neighbors in 1940? hi
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 18: 00
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          and Hitler would have waited ...

          What does Hitler have to do with it, if the development of this program began at the end of 1940, when data on Barbarossa was not yet available, this is a long-term event, because the industry is not able to produce 30 thousand tanks in two or three years. There is also data on the annual production of tanks in 1940 and the first half of 1941 - take an interest in the numbers and you will understand everything.
          Quote: DrEng527
          maybe it was not necessary to spoil relations with all neighbors in 1940?

          And they strongly asked us when they planned to participate with Hitler in the defeat of the USSR? Are we supposed to play naivete?
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 20 January 2021 18: 53
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            started at the end of 1940, when data on Barbarossa were not yet available -

            but there were the results of Molotov's negotiations
            Quote: ccsr
            because the industry is not able to produce 30 thousand tanks in two or three years

            Have you read GKZh's memoirs? in them he wrote that he did not know the capabilities of the industry ... hi
            Quote: ccsr
            take an interest in numbers and you will understand everything.

            I'm not the head of the General Staff of the Red Army bully
            Quote: ccsr
            And they strongly asked us when they planned to participate with Hitler in the defeat of the USSR? Are we supposed to play naivete?

            And what should Finland do, which received independence from the RSFSR, and then part of its territory was taken away from it? Or Romania? from which Bessarabia was taken away ... The IVS created enemies before the war - well, a very good strategy ... request
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 20 January 2021 19: 17
              0
              Quote: DrEng527
              but there were the results of Molotov's negotiations

              And this has to do with it, if we did not know the plan of Barbarossa?
              Quote: DrEng527
              Have you read GKZh's memoirs? in them he wrote that he did not know the capabilities of the industry ..

              It is precisely that our many generals vaguely imagined the possibilities of industry and wanted a lot and at once. So they had to be lowered to the ground, which Stalin did, not allowing mobilization to be carried out in advance, understanding how this would hit the country's economy.
              Quote: DrEng527
              I'm not the head of the General Staff of the Red Army

              And in our country the General Staff was not responsible for the armored vehicles - in our country the GABTU was responsible for this, so do not hang on Zhukov what he had nothing to do with. Can you figure it out first, at least in this, before hanging the "awards"?

              Quote: DrEng527
              And what should Finland do, which received independence from the RSFSR, and then part of its territory was taken away from it?

              Appreciate the realities of that time and take much more than what they gave. But their show-off was in the first place, so they got shocked for their arrogance.
              Quote: DrEng527
              Or Romania? from which Bessarabia was taken away ...

              And you do not remember about Poland - after all, they took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia with the Germans even before us. Why are we worse than Germany or Poland in these matters?
              Quote: DrEng527
              The IVS created enemies before the war - well, a very good strategy ...

              Enemies with us still 800 years before that appeared, starting with the crusaders, and they always wanted something from us. So we began to behave the way they treated us - doesn't this reflect the realities of that time?
      2. BAI
        BAI 20 January 2021 19: 42
        +1
        By June 1941, 29 mechanized corps already existed. From the first to the thirtieth. It was not twenty-nine. Moreover, the 6th mechanized corps was fully equipped with:
        6th mechanized corps - of tanks - 1021 (1031), of which heavy tanks KV - 114 (126), medium tanks T-34 - 238 (420), light tanks BT - 416 (316), light tanks T-26 - 126 (152), others - 127 (17), armored vehicles - 229 (268), artillery guns —172 (172);
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 19: 51
          0
          Quote: BAI
          By June 1941, 29 mechanized corps already existed.

          The overwhelming majority of them were on paper, and those that were real had a shortage not only in weapons, but also in personnel. And the infrastructure of these mechanized corps wanted the best - all this manifested itself in the very first days of the war. Even if Rokossovsky could not get through to check the received signal about the lifting of the hull, then you can not talk about the rest.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 20 January 2021 16: 50
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      For 2 years. By 1943, 30 mechanized corps with 1000 tanks each were to be deployed. And the tanks are T-34 and KV, not T-26 and BT-7. It is a strike force, not a defensive force. Why in peacetime 30 tanks?

      Then, our intelligence regularly frightened the General Staff with thousands of German tanks:
      Thus, Germany has a monthly estimated production of 1000-1200 units, the main type of which is T-III - T-IV with 30-mm and 40-mm armor.
      The Skoda factories with an estimated production capacity of 150-175 tanks of the Sh-IIa, T-21, ChMKD types - 100 38-T and 50-60 V8HZ, the armor thickness of these tanks from 15 to 50 mm; the "Ursis" plant (former Poland), where the serial production of an 11-ton tank was launched in the amount of 30-40 tanks per month.
      In a total approximate amount, the monthly production will give the German army 1300-1550 tanks, not taking into account the release of the factories that are being commissioned in the occupied territory of France.

      © Head of the Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army, Lieutenant General Golikov

      In addition, mech connections are critical in defense. Only with their help it is possible to stop the consequences of the breakthroughs of the enemy's mechanical units: without "fire brigades" that are not inferior in mobility to the enemy, the infantry formations holding the defense will quickly find themselves in the cauldrons, and the reserves will be broken on the march.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 20 January 2021 18: 53
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In addition, mech connections are critical in defense.

        watch the battles near Brody ... request
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 21 January 2021 10: 46
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          watch the battles near Brody ...

          For which I must say special thanks to the command of the South-Western Front, who decided that the order of the General Staff was not a decree to them - and began to improvise. As a result, almost two days were lost, the mechanized corps were unwound on marches "there and back" and partially torn apart to reinforce the infantry defense, and the infantry approached the German mechanized formations. And instead of hitting the flank-rear of the 1st TGR by the forces of divisional groups with their own infantry and artillery (as it would have happened if the order of the NGSH was executed exactly), the South-Western Front received knocking with naked tanks (pretty much knocked out on marches) in the anti-tank defense.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 21 January 2021 11: 02
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As a result, almost two days were lost, the mechanized corps were unwound on marches "back and forth" and partially torn apart to reinforce the defense of the infantry, and the infantry approached the German mechanized formations.

            1) yes, I read the memoirs of a well-known tanker, where he commanded a KV battalion, which was driven in the heat to and fro for 80 km, and then, without reconnaissance, infantry, artillery and maintenance, the remnants of the battalion were thrown into the attack - the result is natural ... request
            2) this only confirms the banality - no matter how much the blockhead does not give tanks, he will ditch them ... request The question is, why did these "generals" command the fronts? For example, after the encirclement near Kiev, they were defeated in a week at the beginning of autumn ... And the Germans held out at Stalingrad in the winter for 2,5 months request
            "K. K. Rokossovsky
            I was extremely surprised by his striking confusion ... It seemed that he either did not know the situation, or did not want to know it. In those minutes I finally came to the conclusion that such voluminous, complex and responsible duties are beyond the capacity of this person, and woe to the troops entrusted to him [5]. "
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 21 January 2021 11: 43
              0
              Quote: DrEng527
              The question is, why did these "generals" command the fronts?

              So there were no others. And not only here - the actions of Soviet armored vehicles in the summer of 1941 are like two peas in a pod similar to their French counterparts a year earlier. smile
              In addition, do not forget that for the successful conduct of hostilities, in addition to commanders, you also need competent subordinates. And here in 1941 the infantry divisional commanders consider it possible to send the attached tanks into battle "naked" and without artillery support, the battalion commanders request corps caliber fire on small groups and even individual enemy servicemen (while the consumption of the battalion and regimental artillery BP is such that the front warehouses filled with shells), and at the grassroots level, an orgy like "the sergeant was sent on reconnaissance, crawled to the German dugout and, not knowing what to do next, crawled back".
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 21 January 2021 12: 26
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                So there were no others.

                this is the result of personnel policy in the Red Army request well, operations Spring, etc. - the main thing is to be devoted and suppress peasant uprisings ... hi
                Quote: Alexey RA
                two drops of water are similar to their French counterparts a year earlier.

                the Franks had only 1TD, and in the Red Army there are many ... request
                Quote: Alexey RA
                For 1941, our infantry division commanders consider it possible to send attached tanks into battle "naked" and without artillery support,

                see H-G and the famous attack on the B-C hill ... although there she shot from the river Arta ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                but at the grassroots level there is generally a bacchanalia like "

                at the same time, the same GKZH spoke very well about his school of non-commissioned officers in RIA! Well, who prevented them from preparing sergeants? request
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 22 January 2021 11: 15
                  0
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  this is the result of the personnel policy in the RKKA, request and operations Vesna, etc.

                  This is the result of the extremely low literacy rate of the population on average. If 90% of cadets at the beginning of the 30s have only primary education, then during the time allotted for their training it is impossible to train a competent commander - there is no base.
                  To understand the level of the fifth point with education in the USSR: even in 1941 in BTV KOVO, 60% of privates and 30% of junior command personnel had an education of 1-3 grades.
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  the Franks had only 1TD, and in the Red Army there are many

                  The Franks had 6 (six) panzer divisions: three DLMs and three DCu / DCRs. But they used them ...
                  In the face of the impending danger, a conceptual error followed - General Flavigny divided the 3rd Panzer Division into small parts in order to cover all possible penetration routes with them, instead of using this unit as a whole, in the role for which it was prepared. Thus, in the end, the counterattack, which I ordered to carry out 3 (!) Times, was never implemented.

                  A familiar picture, is not it?
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  see H-G and the famous attack on the B-C hill ... although there she shot from the river Arta ...

                  So at Bain-Tsagan there was no physical infantry - therefore, the Japanese were shot down with naked tanks and BA.
                  But in 1941-1942. tankers, attached to the infantry, were forced to independently storm the enemy defense if you have your own infantry on the battlefield... Because "the infantry does not follow the tanks," and the infantry commanders drive the tankers into battle almost under the threat of being shot.
                  A typical situation: a tank battalion was attached to a division to support the offensive, in the evening and at night with the division headquarters they outlined a battle plan - tanks attack under the cover of infantry and artillery of a rifle division ... and in the morning it turns out that the rifle battalion assigned to the offensive along with the tankers was ordered by the division commander transferred to the other flank, orders and plans were not communicated to the artillery regiment, and the divisional commander obscenities into the tube ordered to attack.
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  at the same time, the same GKZH spoke very well about his school of non-commissioned officers in RIA! Well, who prevented them from preparing sergeants?

                  Nobody interfered. But based on the army of the mid-30s with 25 personnel divisions and a bunch of territories.
                  And in the late 30s, this whole system went to hell. First - the rejection of the territorials, then - the rejection of the "troichats" and their division in peacetime into framed divisions, then - the shock formation of new formations in all branches of the military. The prepared reserve of junior command personnel dissolved like sugar in boiling water. And I had to prepare early-maturing young committees from conscripts, often with the same "grades 1-3", and they were often prepared by the same illiterate young committees.
                  BTV KOVO:
                  For six months, the number of command personnel of tank forces increased by one and a half times, the number of junior command personnel doubled, but the number of first-years, most in need of attention from the command personnel in terms of organizing training and monitoring its results, almost tripled. The number of “old-timers” has also increased disproportionately to the growth in the number of first-year students (doubling versus tripling).
                  © "The first T-34. Combat use".
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 22 January 2021 11: 54
                    -1
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    To understand the level of the fifth point with education in the USSR: d

                    At the same time, a competent officer and u-o corps were formed in the "illiterate" RI ... request And the USSR had successes in education, about which they shout at all corners ...

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    A familiar picture, is not it?

                    yes ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The divisional commander obscenities into the phone orders to attack.

                    and how did he become a division commander? request
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The prepared reserve of junior command personnel dissolved like sugar in boiling water.

                    in general, the same as it was with the tank units before the war, after the formation of the 21MK request In fact, not understanding the banal - that a lot of money is always good ...
                  2. ccsr
                    ccsr 22 January 2021 13: 47
                    -1
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    If 90% of cadets at the beginning of the 30s have only primary education, then during the time allotted for their training it is impossible to train a competent commander - there is no base.

                    Here I disagree with you if you are talking about the training of officers, because my father entered the military school in 1936, and they did not take it there with less than 9 grades, and even then the bulk of them entered the secondary school. For those who did not have it, they specially conducted additional classes at the school during their studies - apparently this was allowed by orders of the NGO.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    To understand the level of the fifth point with education in the USSR: even in 1941 in BTV KOVO, 60% of privates and 30% of junior command personnel had an education of 1-3 grades.

                    As for the rank and file, this really took place, and our conscript was qualitatively inferior to the German conscript not only in education, but even in the ability to own ordinary household appliances, not to mention the more complex military. As the saying goes, you can't throw out words from a song, and we had a lot of problems just because of the poor basic training of recruits.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 12: 47
    +3
    World War II was a terrible blow to Russia, Germany and Japan by the United States and England.

    Touched that the team of authors "Samsonov" gives a link to their own nonsense five years ago. I was not lazy, I went in. Came out - drained the water. In general, the Samsonov collective farm is incurable.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 20 January 2021 13: 08
    0
    And all this is directed not only at young people, many adults do not take a book in their hands. Moreover, all Soviet literature will be privatized at audio sites. Special thanks for this to Nikita Mikhalkov and his comrades. Such lies are aimed at dense people. How many preventive strikes have been made. Germany? Yes, the whole of Europe. And everywhere they put the base under their lies. Hitler managed to make mindless people in his country. Now someone's hands itch to make such people all over the world.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 January 2021 14: 25
      +1
      Quote: nikvic46
      many adults do not take a book in their hands

      And what is wrong with reading an alternative opinion?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 January 2021 14: 54
    +3
    In fact, the Red Army, of course, was preparing for a preemptive strike. But what was that blow?
    The plan of the Red Army largely repeated the plans of the Russian imperial army of the WWI era, the essence of which was as follows
    1) Everyone knew that the war begins with the announcement of general mobilization, and not with the actual date of the invasion.
    2) Since, subject to the simultaneous start of mobilization, the Germans managed to deploy their troops in full force about 3 weeks earlier than Russia (the same is true for the USSR), it turned out that in the war with the Germans, the initiative was a priori given to them, they would have the opportunity to inflict the first strike when our armies are not yet fully mobilized and deployed.
    3) It was impossible to accelerate the deployment of the Russian / USSR army. The Germans live closer together, the distances are shorter, and their transport networks are better.
    4) Accordingly, Russia / USSR planned to keep relatively small contingents of troops in high combat readiness on the border with Germany, so that they, having deployed a couple of days after the announcement of general mobilization, crossed the border and by their actions disrupted the deployment of the German army, delaying this deployment to 3 weeks. And then our army would have met the aggressor in full force.
    Well, it was these plans that Rezun presented as proof that we were going to strike first and conquer ffseh wassat
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 20 January 2021 18: 42
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      In fact, the Red Army, of course, was preparing for a preemptive strike. But what was that blow?

      None of the plan for covering the constituencies of 1941 mentions this "preemptive strike", but there is an indication of the People's Commissar of what should be in terms of covering. Here is what the People's Commissar pointed out for ZAPOVO:
      TO THE COMMANDING MILITARY OF THE WESTERN SPECIAL MILITARY DISTRICT
      Map 1: 1
      In order to cover the mobilization, concentration and deployment of the district’s troops by May 20, 1941, personally to you, the chief of staff and the chief of the operational department of the district’s headquarters, to develop:
      a) a detailed plan for the defense of the state border from Kapczyamestis to the lawsuit. Lake Svityaz;
      b) a detailed air defense plan.
      .....
      The task of the mechanized corps is, deploying under the cover of anti-tank brigades, with powerful flank and concentric strikes, together with aviation, to inflict a final defeat on the enemy's mechanical units and eliminate the breakthrough;
      3) provide for the application of counterattacks by mechanized corps and aviation in cooperation with rifle corps and anti-tank brigades;

      Well, where is at least one word here about readiness for a preemptive strike?
      Moreover, on the contrary, it is indicated to develop a completely different plan:
      7) in case of an emergency, develop an evacuation plan according to special instructions factories, factories, banks and other economic enterprises, government agencies, warehouses of military and state property, liable for military service, means of transport.


      I'm not even talking about the fact that the Commissariat of Communications was not even able to technically ensure the timely organization of communications abroad of our country, and the staffing of the communications troops was one of the worst in the armed forces. What kind of "preemptive strike" in this case could be discussed if we could not control them on foreign territory?
      Even KOVO was not instructed to develop a plan for such a strike, but they were only instructed to be ready to cross the border in a FAVORABLE situation:
      c) under favorable conditions, be ready, at the direction of the High Command, to deliver swift strikes to defeat enemy groupings, transfer hostilities to its territory and capture advantageous lines.
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 20 January 2021 20: 13
        0
        Not a single plan for covering the 1941 districts mentions this "preemptive strike"

        That's right, because this is a plan for the time of mobilization and concentration of the army at the starting lines.
        Well, where is at least one word here

        So here and it is not necessary, we are advancing after mobilization, according to "Considerations on deployment ..." by Zhukov, Meretskov, Shaposhnikov. Mobilization means war, that is, we have revealed the fact of preparing an attack and are going to disrupt the enemy's plans, there is no point in waiting, guessing the direction of the blows, it is easier to strike by ourselves, forcing the enemy to abandon the original plans.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 20: 28
          0
          Quote: strannik1985
          That's right, because this is a plan for the time of mobilization and concentration of the army at the starting lines.

          How can you plan what is impossible to accomplish in a short time, at least from the point of view of maintaining the secrecy regime? Even if you have mobilized the assignees, then you need to at least put together teams capable of competently acting in the offensive, and this is already a problem for the commanders, and not a single day. And the call for the counterstrike attorneys in itself unmasks our plans. All this does not fit with military science, and I'm not even talking about the fact that in reality no one has seen such a document.
          Quote: strannik1985
          , it is easier to hit yourself, forcing the enemy to abandon the original plans.

          Even with untrained troops, against those who already have combat experience? Yes, we would have been so smeared that after such losses, the Germans would have reached Moscow much faster.
          But that is not the point - the ultimate goal of such a strike as you imagine it, especially given the future losses of the army during the offensive.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 21 January 2021 21: 26
            0
            How can you plan what is not possible to implement

            It is also possible, moreover, part of the army can be mobilized without a BUS at all, simply by adopting a new state, for example SD 04/100 - there were 1941 such divisions by June 89, you can mobilize under the guise of large training camps (as they did in 1939 and as the GKZ in 1941), such gatherings were carried out since 1938, they did not cause much excitement among the Germans.
            Even by untrained troops

            So it is more difficult to defend with the same troops, it is necessary to guess the place of the offensive, bring the troops in advance (yeah, all 3 strategic echelons, spread over all western military units), carry out the necessary work to prepare the positions. During the Kursk defensive operation, they knew the directions, but the Germans were still able to break through the defenses. The offensive overturns the playing field - the enemy is forced to change plans on the fly, we beat part of the Wehrmacht with superiority, the country has time for normal mobilization. Of course, "Considerations ..." is not a plan, but an analytical note, but there is logic in it, it is not for nothing that all the notes of 1938/1940 (2) / 1941 suggest active b / d.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 22 January 2021 12: 57
              -1
              Quote: strannik1985
              As much as possible, moreover, part of the army can be mobilized without a BUS at all, simply by adopting a new state,

              The state is just a structure. What are you going to fill it with, and where will you get trained personnel for this, from privates to commanders?
              Quote: strannik1985
              So it is more difficult to defend with the same troops,

              Not so much as organizing an offensive. Yes, both temporal and territorial factors will be on our side during the defense.
              Quote: strannik1985
              ... During the Kursk defensive operation, the directions knew

              The biggest mistake of all researchers who compare the pre-war army with those who organized battles during the war is that the experience gained is not taken into account, and the whole country has already switched to a war footing. These are completely different situations, and this must be taken into account.
              Quote: strannik1985
              Of course "Considerations ..." is not a plan,

              Any professional understands this - if you have all the ordered building materials, you cannot start building a house without an architectural project, and even more so without engineering surveys, otherwise either the house will not be built, or it will collapse after construction.
              Quote: strannik1985
              it is not for nothing that all the 1938/1940 (2) / 1941 notes suggest active b / d.

              They often stipulate this with the words "under favorable conditions", i.e. the General Staff understood perfectly well that the Wehrmacht of 1941 was not the Finnish army of 1939.
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 22 January 2021 20: 53
                0
                The state is just a structure.

                The structure of the structure is different, by 1939 the personnel SD had 9 deployed rifle companies out of 27, the reservists went into battle having from a week to a couple of months to prepare, in 1941 the situation was different (before the start of permanent mobilization).
                Not so much as organizing an offensive.

                Much more complicated, a simple example - cover armies (which are not enough to build a stable defense) are not sitting in URs, but are located in regiments - battalions at a distance of up to 40 km from the border.
                The biggest mistake of all researchers

                What we are talking about, in advance to organize and prepare such a defense cannot. Extrapolate the COO experience to 1200 km of the German - Soviet border.
                They often stipulate this with conditions

                Favorable conditions, i.e. mobilization and concentration will take place without interference from the enemy, the Germans have a railway network better developed, it is simpler for them (all other things being equal).
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 January 2021 10: 08
        -1
        Quote: ccsr
        None of the plan for covering the 1941 districts mentions this "preemptive strike"

        By itself.
        There, in fact, everything is quite complicated. We had an operational plan for 1938, which implied a preemptive strike. We had an operational plan for August 1940 ("Considerations on the Foundations of the Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941"), which says
        The main task of our troops is to defeat the German forces concentrated in East Prussia and in the Warsaw area; inflict an auxiliary blow on the enemy grouping in the Ivangorod, Lublin, Grubeshov, Tomashev, Sandomir area

        including
        The North-Western Front - the main task - after concentration, attack the enemy with the ultimate goal, together with the Western Front, to defeat his grouping in East Prussia and capture the latter.

        и
        Western Front - the main task - to strike north of the river. Bug, in the general direction of Alenstein, together with the armies of the North-Western Front, inflict a decisive defeat on the German armies concentrating on the territory of East Prussia, capture the latter and reach the lower reaches of the river. Vistula. At the same time, with a blow from the left-flank army in the general direction of Ivangorod, together with the armies of the South-Western Front, defeat the Ivangorod-Lublin enemy grouping and also reach the river. Vistula.

        Finally, we had another operational plan, entitled "Considerations of the General Staff of the Red Army on the strategic deployment plan of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the event of a war with Germany and its allies,"
        Given that Germany is currently keeping her army mobilized, with rear areas deployed, she has the ability to warn us of deployment and strike with surprise.
        To prevent this, I consider it necessary in no case to give the initiative of action to the German command, to preempt the enemy in deployment and to attack the German army at the moment when it is in the stage of deployment and does not have time to organize the front and interaction of the branches of service.

        And then the riddles begin. Whether the last plan was adopted or not - historians argue to this day, based solely on circumstantial evidence. But there is a fact - shortly before the war, Stalin forbade attacking first. Hence the appearance of the Directives of the USSR People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army to the commander of the border districts.
        Quote: ccsr
        I'm not even talking about the fact that the Commissariat of Communications was not even able to technically provide

        And, nevertheless, they planned to wage a war exactly on foreign territory.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 21 January 2021 14: 07
          -1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Finally, we had another operational plan, entitled "Considerations of the General Staff of the Red Army on the strategic deployment plan of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the event of a war with Germany and its allies,"

          Yes, you at least carefully study the names, because CONSIDERATIONS for strategic deployment is not an operational PLAN of even the first operation, even for one district (front), not to mention the joint actions of several fronts. How can you not understand that the deployment of troops is just one phase in the preparation of the state for a POSSIBLE war, which is engaged in the mobilization structures of the General Staff. But the plan for the first and subsequent strategic operations is developed only when a decision is made to start a war against the enemy, and then the operational structures of the General Staff are engaged in this. But for all this there should be the will not of the People's Commissar or the Chief of General Staff, but only the government of the country, i.e. direct instruction from Stalin. That is why the famous Directive w / o was "polished" on June 21 precisely in Stalin's office - otherwise there could be no question at that time, and even now.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          ... Whether the last plan was adopted or not - historians argue to this day, based solely on circumstantial evidence.

          Even if this plan was adopted and the command was received to start mobilization deployment, this does not mean that a war with Germany will necessarily begin and they will start fighting on the basis of this mobplan. To do this, it was necessary to make a completely different decision, develop a new plan, including with an eye on how the deployment took place and what we have from the point of view of the combat readiness of the troops, otherwise all this would have been a phony letter.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And, nevertheless, they planned to wage a war exactly on foreign territory.

          You can also plan that you will accelerate your "Lada" to 250 km / h, and this is really possible - when you take off from the mountain road into the gorge. On landing, you will definitely reach this speed, that's just what is left of you ...
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 January 2021 14: 32
            -1
            Quote: ccsr
            Do you at least carefully study the names, because CONSIDERATIONS for strategic deployment is not an operational PLAN

            Hmmm ... The operational plans of the USSR were called "Considerations". To be precise, the "Considerations" were an integral part of the operational plan, it is clear that they were not exhausted by them alone.
            Quote: ccsr
            an operational PLAN of at least the first operation even for one district (front), not to mention the joint actions of several fronts. How can you not understand that the deployment of troops is just one phase in the preparation of the state for a POSSIBLE war, which is engaged in the mobilization structures of the General Staff

            Let's not confuse the operational and mobilization plans. They are slightly different, and we are talking about operational
            Quote: ccsr
            Even if this plan was adopted and the command was received to proceed with the mobilization deployment, this does not mean that a war with Germany will necessarily begin and they will begin to fight on the basis of this mobilization

            Did I say something different? :)))
            The bottom line is that preemptive strikes figured in our plans all the time, and the Red Army was preparing for them (well, how it was preparing ... in 1940 there was no mobplan, that's how they were preparing), but in May 1941 they were abandoned on Stalin's orders.
            Quote: ccsr
            You can also plan that you will speed up your "Lada" to 250 km / h,

            The lyrics are beside the point. In 1940 for the Red Army
            defeating German forces concentrating in East Prussia and the Warsaw area; inflict an auxiliary blow on the enemy grouping in the Ivangorod, Lublin, Grubeshov, Tomashev, Sandomir area

            passed under the category of unscientific fiction, nevertheless, this plan was approved in October 1940, it is known for certain.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 21 January 2021 15: 24
              -1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The operational plans of the USSR were called "Considerations".

              Only in your imagination. Considerations are only a memorandum and not an executive document - you are simply not in the subject. For example, the People's Commissar gave the troops his views on the creation of cover plans, but in the districts, based on his considerations, they developed a SPECIFIC plan for all the troops in the district. This is how it works in the army.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Let's not confuse the operational and mobilization plans. They are slightly different, and we are talking about operational

              This is how you confuse this, attributing to deployment considerations the title of a guiding document for operational planning. Have you read them carefully?
              Here's the text for you:
              III. Based on the indicated concept of strategic deployment, the following grouping of the USSR Armed Forces is envisaged:
              1. The ground forces of the Red Army, consisting of 198 RD, 61 TD, 31 MD, 13 CD (a total of 303 divisions and 74 artillery regiments of the Glossar RGK), shall be distributed as follows:
              a) The main forces of 163 rifle divisions, 58 TD, 30 MD and 7 CD (258 divisions in total) and 53 RNK artillery regiments should be in the West, of which: as part of the Northern, North-Western, Western and South-Western fronts - 136 rifle divisions , 44 TD, 23 MD, 7 CD (210 divisions in total) and 53 artillery regiment of the RGK; as part of the Glossar reserve of the Main Command for the Southwestern and Western Fronts - 27 rifle divisions, 14 TD, 7 MD (48 divisions in total);
              b) The rest of the forces, consisting of 35 RD, 3 TD, 1 MD, 6 CD (45 divisions in total) and 21 AP RGK, are assigned for the defense of the Far Eastern, southern and northern borders of the USSR, of which

              Well, where did you see here exactly how 136 RD, 44 TD, 23 MD, 7 CD (210 divisions in total) and 53 artillery regiment of the RGK concentrated in the West, in the conditional H + ...?
              You don't seem to understand at all what the words in the very heading of the considerations mean:
              I submit considerations for your consideration according to the plan of the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies.

              This is a typical report material, and not a plan of action by the fronts for a strategic offensive submitted for approval. With this at least figure it out for a start, if you climbed to teach others military science.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 January 2021 15: 47
                -1
                Quote: ccsr
                Only in your imagination. Considerations are only a memorandum and not an executive document - you are simply not in the subject

                I'm afraid to disappoint you, but you are not in the subject.
                First, as I said before, the Considerations are part of the operational plan.
                Secondly, you break into an open door. Because if you have already undertaken to dispute my thesis about a preemptive strike, then you should have argued that the operational plans of the districts BEFORE 1941 did not provide for this preemptive strike. You are quoting the May directives instead. What for?
                Quote: ccsr
                This is how you confuse this by attributing to deployment considerations the title of a guiding document for operational planning.

                Please leave the mobplan alone. He is not involved here in any way.
                Quote: ccsr
                Well, where did you see here exactly how 136 RD will have to act?

                There, above, I quoted it to you.
                Again. I perfectly understand what you want to say. That, they say, all these "considerations" and so on are the plans / reports of the upper level, and the real preparation should be judged by the operational plans of the border districts. No problem. If you provide data that in 1938-1940 the operational plans of these districts did not provide for proactive actions, then we can assume that you have proven your point of view.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 January 2021 16: 57
                  -2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  First, as I said before, the Considerations are part of the operational plan.

                  A link to this OPERATIONAL plan, because I realized that you are now starting to wag, and it would be best to immediately put you in front of a question that you will leave unanswered. Where is this OPERATIONAL plan, who drew up it, who signed it, who approved it? Date, number, details of this document.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Because if you have already undertaken to challenge my thesis about the preemptive strike,

                  This is not even a thesis, but just your personal fantasy, which is not supported by anything documented.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  then you should prove that the operational plans of the districts BEFORE 1941 did not provide for this preemptive strike.

                  The districts did not have an "operational plan" as such, because there was a cover plan for the district and a mobilization plan for the district, plus a bunch of supplements and current plans covering the life of the district troops. What other "district operational plan" have you come up with this time - can you give the full name of such a document? Or you have a fantasy and you have no idea that some formations in the area could be mobilized only for 15 days.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  That, they say, all these "considerations" and so on are plans / reports of the upper level, and the real preparation should be judged by the operational plans of the border districts. No problem.

                  You have not even figured out the purpose of the documents, because the considerations are a strategic-level document, and the plans for covering the districts have the status of the operational LEVEL, and not the operational planning of a pre-emptive strike. How does the strategic level differ from the operational level? As I understand it, you even get confused in this when you read military literature.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  If you provide data that in 1938-1940 the operational plans of these districts did not provide for proactive actions,

                  What kind of anticipation is there at the district level, if the decision on war is made not even by the People's Commissariat and General Staff, but by the country's government? What other preemptive strike can you dream of a district commander if he does not have the authority to do so?
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 January 2021 06: 05
                    -1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    because I realized that you are now starting to wag

                    (Heavy sigh) You started to wag when you were asked a straightforward and simple question
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Because if you have already undertaken to dispute my thesis about a preemptive strike, then you should have argued that the operational plans of the districts BEFORE 1941 did not provide for this preemptive strike. You are quoting the May directives instead. What for?

                    And they hit your usual verbiage, writing
                    Quote: ccsr
                    There was no "operational plan" as such in the districts because there was a cover plan for the district and a mobilization plan for the district.

                    and right there
                    Quote: ccsr
                    and the coverage plans for the districts have the status of an OPERATIONAL LEVEL

                    Good, rephrase.
                    If you have already undertaken to challenge my thesis about a preemptive strike, then you should have argued that the plans of the operational LEVEL of the districts before 1941 did not provide for this preemptive strike.
                    It'll do? Or will we continue to dig into the wording, instead of answering within the meaning?
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Where is this OPERATIONAL plan, who drew up it, who signed it, who approved it? Date, number, details of this document.

                    This is unknown to me, because I do not see them in the open press. But those who worked with the archives (Gorkov Y.A., for example), imagine, have the audacity to assert
                    Of course, there were operational plans for war in the Soviet Union, as in any other state. Their originals are kept in military archives. At different times, these plans bore different names: "On the strategic deployment of the Red Army in case of war in the West according to the PR option" (1924) {39}., "Note on the defense of the USSR" (1927) {40}., "Operational plan" (1927-1928) {41}., "Plan for the strategic distribution of the Red Army and operational deployment in the West" (1936) {42}., "Fundamentals of strategic deployment in the Far Eastern theater of operations" (1938 .) {43}., "Considerations on the foundations of the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941" (1940) {44}., "Considerations on the plan for the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union in the event of a war with Germany and its allies "(May 1941) {45}.

                    In doing so, referring to
                    {39} TsAMO RF. F. 16a, op. 2951, house 4.
                    {40} Ibid, 25.
                    {41} Ibid.
                    {42} Ibid, 175.
                    {43} Ibid, 209.
                    {44} Ibid., 239, ll. 198-244.
                    {45} Ibid., 237, ll. 1 -15.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 22 January 2021 13: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      If you have already undertaken to challenge my thesis about a preemptive strike, then you should have argued that the plans of the operational LEVEL of the districts before 1941 did not provide for this preemptive strike.

                      Open the last May cover plan and there you will see that there is nothing of the kind there and not close. And if we consider that these plans are 90 percent repeating the previous ones, then you don't need a lot of intelligence to understand that there was nothing like this in the previous plans.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      This is unknown to me, because I do not see them in the open press. But those who worked with the archives (Gorkov Y.A., for example), imagine, have the audacity to assert

                      Actually, Gorkov did not fight and did not participate in the development of pre-war plans, so his personal opinion, which you decided to speculate to justify a preemptive strike, does not coincide with the opinion of the group of authors of the book "Lessons and Conclusions", who more deeply studied the documents of those years:
                      February 1941 was a turning point in the development of the Soviet Armed Forces and in the operational and strategic planning of their use. The General Staff was developing a major program to develop new operational and mobilization plans. In particular, the reports of the chiefs of directorates of the General Staff to its chief, General of the Army G.K. Zhukov, outlined plans for resolving issues of strategic planning. On the basis of the instructions of the Chief of the General Staff, Lieutenant General NF Vatutin drew up a "Plan for the development of operational plans," in accordance with which a number of important operational documents were developed in February. In March - May 1941, N.F. Vatutin, together with Major General L.M. Vasilevsky, on the basis of instructions from the Chief of the General Staff and new intelligence data, made significant adjustments to the strategic deployment plan of the Armed Forces.

                      Well, where is it indicated here that at that time your mythical "operational plan" was developed, if we are talking only about strategic deployment? Gorkov has piled up various documents of different years, it can be seen even by their names, and you, having no idea how the lecture materials differ from the planning ones, are trying to show your cleverness, although it is clear that you don’t understand nifig in the documents.
                      Moreover, your "fix idea" is again refuted by a team of military authors:
                      But recommendations for a preemptive strike, even in conditions of direct preparation of the enemy for aggression, contradicted the nature of the Soviet military doctrine and the policy pursued by the Soviet Union immediately on the eve of the war. In addition, the Soviet Armed Forces were not ready for such decisive action. In order to increase readiness for war, given the growing threat of fascist aggression and the increase in the composition of the Armed Forces, the General Staff constantly updated the documents on strategic deployment {88}. By mid-June 1941, in a note on the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces, it was envisaged to deploy the first strategic echelon on the basis of the existing military districts as part of 4 fronts (189 divisions and 2 brigades, taking into account the troops located in the Crimea), which accounted for more than 60% of all formations Red Army.

                      http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/02.html
                      We have not really decided on the grouping of troops on the eve of the war, and it had to be corrected even in June, and you have already invented some "preventive strikes". Our military doctrine swept them aside, and you, referring to Gorkov, decided that you know better that time and who and what was planning then. Oh well...
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 January 2021 15: 14
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Open the last cover plan in May and there you will see that there is nothing of the kind there and not close

                        Bark-bast, start over. There - no, and I explained WHY not. A personal instruction of Vissarionych, made by him contrary to the opinion of his General Staff.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And if we consider that these plans are 90 percent repeating the previous ones, then you don't need a lot of intelligence to understand that there was nothing like this in the previous plans.

                        Prove that these plans are 90% the same as the previous ones. Especially in light of the APPROVED 1940 plans
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The main task of our troops is to defeat the German forces concentrated in East Prussia and in the Warsaw area; inflict an auxiliary blow on the enemy grouping in the Ivangorod, Lublin, Grubeshov, Tomashev, Sandomir area

                        including
                        The North-Western Front - the main task - after concentration, attack the enemy with the ultimate goal, together with the Western Front, to defeat his grouping in East Prussia and capture the latter.

                        и
                        Western Front - the main task - to strike north of the river. Bug, in the general direction of Alenstein, together with the armies of the North-Western Front, inflict a decisive defeat on the German armies concentrating on the territory of East Prussia, capture the latter and reach the lower reaches of the river. Vistula. At the same time, with a blow from the left-flank army in the general direction of Ivangorod, together with the armies of the South-Western Front, defeat the Ivangorod-Lublin enemy grouping and also reach the river. Vistula.
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 22 January 2021 17: 55
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Prove that these plans are 90% the same as the previous ones.

                        Yes, the number and deployment of troops in the first months of 1941 did not change much, which is why they could not bring anything significant into the old cover plans. Only in July did the first armies go to strengthen the border districts, and then they could begin to correct something in them, and even then if they were planned to be used not as a reserve of the General Staff.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The main task of our troops is to defeat the German forces concentrated in East Prussia and in the Warsaw area; inflict an auxiliary blow on the enemy grouping in the Ivangorod, Lublin, Grubeshov, Tomashev, Sandomir area

                        Well, stop cheating and bring a memo, which does not even have an account number, and you, as that thimble-giver, are trying to present it as an approved planning document of 1940:
                        Document No. 95
                        Note by the USSR People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army in the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks I.V. Stalin and V.M. Molotov on the basics of the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the USSR in the West and the East for 1940 and 1941
                        [not later than 19.08.1940]
                        non-cash
                        Of particular importance
                        Ow. top secret
                        Only personally

                        I am submitting for your consideration considerations on the foundations of the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the USSR in the West and in the East for 1940 and 1941.

                        Where is the approved plan based on this memo? Will you start wagging again, or slipping all kinds of bullshit? This trick will not work for you with me, you are not the first who sells this report to the gullible public as an approved strategic operational plan. Learn to at least classify military documents before waving different documents without understanding their purpose and status.
                      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 January 2021 22: 31
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Well, stop cheating and bring a memo, which does not even have an account number, and you, as that thimble-giver, are trying to present it as an approved planning document of 1940:

                        You know, already tired. The fact that this document was approved is evidenced by a number of historians, one I have already cited above. You didn’t cite ANYTHING to justify your own position, except for the May directives, which do not refute my point of view. The fact that the plans for the directives changed by 10% is your speculation.
                        So, you can continue to shake the Internet with angry philippics, but if you want to refute me - use it to you, prove that the pre-war plans of 1938-40 did not provide for a preemptive strike. Contrary to what is stated in the "Considerations".
                        Good luck
                      4. ccsr
                        ccsr 23 January 2021 12: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The fact that this document was approved is evidenced by a number of historians, one I have already cited above.

                        Lies, because you do not even have an idea of ​​the procedure if the presentation materials are considered and instructions are given to take them as a basis. Where is the word "I approve" for the report and the position of the one to whom it was reported? Moreover, on this memo, even the word "I approve" is not spelled out - you do not even understand these subtleties.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You didn’t cite ANYTHING to justify your own position, except for the May directives, which do not refute my point of view. The fact that the plans for the directives changed by 10% is your speculation.

                        Cover plans in the districts existed even before the People's Commissar's May directive to revise them. By the way, with what plans to cover the district did they enter the war on June 22, if the new plans were not approved by the People's Commissar? Well, frown and try to answer sanely.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        use it to you, prove that the pre-war plans of 1938-40 did not provide for a preemptive strike. Contrary to what is stated in the "Considerations".

                        You never realized that considerations are not a plan. That is why it is useless to discuss something with you on military topics - you are too illiterate for this. By the way, do not dodge, and explain what "pre-war plan" do you mean specifically, at least its name, because the word "considerations" and "plan" are not the same thing.
                      5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 January 2021 18: 22
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You never realized that considerations are not a plan.

                        Well, of course. Both me and historians, we are all stupid, you alone are the beacon of reason. True, when it comes to specifics, that is, plans of the operational level of the districts, the light somehow suddenly goes out.
                        So where are the plans for the operational level of the Red Army districts that do not contain a preliminary strike, our talkative one?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Where is the word "I approve" for the report and the position of the one to whom it was reported?

                        Kindergarten, group "herringbone". Read at least something about those times, there are often approved considerations not what I "affirm" - the performers did not have signatures. But we will stubbornly measure everything by our personal experience, yes.
                      6. ccsr
                        ccsr 23 January 2021 18: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Both me and historians, we are all stupid,

                        You are not far from the truth - many military historians are simply profane in military affairs, but they like to trump with their historical education. The same happens among journalists, so I'm not surprised by your pearls. For example, you say with a "smart" look:

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        when it comes to specifics, that is, plans of the operational level of the districts, the light somehow suddenly goes out.

                        So I explain to you once again that the district itself represents the operational level of our armed forces. Therefore, ALL documents for the districts belong to the "operational level" category - at least figure it out with this alphabet. And it doesn't matter, it is a cover plan, a mob plan, a district combat training plan, a plan for the construction and quartering of district troops for a year, a plan for equipping a theater of operations, etc. - these are all related to the operational level of documents. But the strategic documents are being developed by the General Staff, and before the war they developed ONLY considerations, which at the beginning of the war were not even formalized as a single package of directives and orders at the level of all armed forces. Learn the materiel the next time you start throwing words you don't understand ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Read at least something about those times, there are often approved considerations not what I "affirm" - the performers did not have signatures.

                        This is what they think in your kindergarten, and if you take at least one pre-war General Staff document of 1941, everything is there - you just haven't learned to distinguish originals from drafts and projects, hence the delusion.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But we will stubbornly measure everything by our personal experience, yes.

                        Experience is a great thing, especially when you compare what you yourself worked with and what happened many years ago. Any modern doctor, the best of any historian, will understand the history of the disease and surgery of that time, because he himself has experience.
                      7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 January 2021 11: 57
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are not far from the truth - many military historians are simply profane in military affairs, but they love to trump with their historical education.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        This is what they think in your kindergarten, and if you take at least one pre-war General Staff document of 1941, everything is there - you just haven't learned to distinguish between originals and drafts and projects

                        It's five! laughing
                        So, for your reference, the biography of the person I referred to (A.Yu. Gorkov), who claims that
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course, there were operational plans for war in the Soviet Union, as in any other state. Their originals are kept in military archives. At different times, these plans bore different names: "On the strategic deployment of the Red Army in case of war in the West according to the PR option" (1924) {39}., "Note on the defense of the USSR" (1927) {40}., "Operational plan" (1927-1928) {41}., "Plan for the strategic distribution of the Red Army and operational deployment in the West" (1936) {42}., "Fundamentals of strategic deployment in the Far Eastern theater of operations" (1938 .) {43}., "Considerations on the foundations of the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941" (1940) {44}., "Considerations on the plan for the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union in the event of a war with Germany and its allies "(May 1941) {45}.

                        The opinion of which you "crushed", and which you wrote down as a layman.
                        Gorkov Yuri Alexandrovich, Colonel General. Was born in 1928 in the village. Bar-Sloboda, Sursky District, Ulyanovsk Region. He graduated from 7 classes, from 1941 to 1945 he worked as a tractor driver, in 1945 he passed exams for secondary school as an external student. Since 1946 he has been a student at the Gorky School of Antiaircraft Artillery, graduated in 1949 with the military rank of lieutenant. Served in the Air Defense Forces as commander of an anti-aircraft battery platoon and chief of staff of an anti-aircraft artillery regiment. In 1962 he graduated from the Military Academy of Air Defense, in 1971 - from the Military Academy of the General Staff. He commanded an anti-aircraft artillery regiment and a brigade, an air defense division. Since 1973, he has served as chief of staff and commander of a separate air defense army. From 1983 to 1988 - Chief of Staff - First Deputy Commander of the Moscow Air Defense District. Since 1988 - retired colonel-general - consultant of the Historical Archive and War Memorial Center of the General Staff.
                        All. On this, I think, the discussion can end
                      8. ccsr
                        ccsr 24 January 2021 12: 25
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The opinion of which you "crushed", and which you wrote down as a layman.

                        Do not attribute to me what I did not do, tk. I don't need to "smash" his views, because against the background of the same Volkogonov, who held a higher post and was much more odd about our history, Gorkov's service was not in the General Staff and he hardly had access to the documents of the General Staff. By the way, this is not even I personally refute Gorkov, but M. Gareev refuted him in his works, and he was definitely a higher rank in the Soviet Army:
                        The question is raised about the possibility of a preemptive strike from our side in order to disrupt the attack of Nazi Germany. The falsifiers even claim that the Soviet General Staff developed a plan for such a strike.
                        However, a careful study of the operational plans of the General Staff of those years shows that there were no plans for a preemptive attack. Of course, in the process of preparing operational plans, various methods of possible actions of the Red Army were worked out, including actions to disrupt an enemy attack. This option was studied in case the Red Army had been completely mobilized, deployed and really ready, as they said at the time, to respond with a "double blow to the enemy's blow" by the beginning of the aggression against the USSR.
                        But in reality, the situation was developing in such a way that all the efforts of the Soviet leadership were aimed at delaying the start of the war at any cost. Proceeding from this, despite the concentration of large Wehrmacht groupings near our borders, the strategic deployment of our army was held back in every possible way. The USSR did not have mobilized and deployed groupings of troops, therefore, preemptive actions on our part could not really be prepared and the Western military districts were tasked primarily with covering the state border. Considering, moreover, that our troops were not on alert, it was even forbidden to shoot down German planes violating the airspace, if, finally, even after the invasion began ...

                        The bitter summer of 1941
                        General of the Army M. Gareev
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        All. On this, I think, the discussion can end

                        When you can refute Gareev's thoughts with Gorkov's texts, then you will tell everyone stories about a preemptive strike. By the way, Gareev considers people like you to be falsifiers of history - so you will never wash off this.
                      9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 January 2021 16: 46
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Do not attribute to me what I did not do

                        Once again, I notice your complete inability to answer for your words.
                        When I gave you the text "Considerations on the Foundations of the Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941", you said with a blue eye that it was not an operational plan, and that
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Well, stop cheating and bring a memo, which does not even have an account number, and you, as that thimble-giver, are trying to present it as an approved planning document of 1940:

                        When I humbly remarked that I was not the only thimble-giver here, and that a certain Gorkov asserted the same
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course, there were operational plans for war in the Soviet Union, as in any other state. Their originals are kept in military archives. At different times, these plans had different names.: "On the strategic deployment of the Red Army in case of war in the West according to the PR option" (1924) {39}., "Note on the defense of the USSR" (1927) {40}., "Operational plan" (1927-1928 years) {41}., "Plan for the strategic distribution of the Red Army and operational deployment in the West" (1936) {42}., "Fundamentals of strategic deployment in the Far Eastern theater of operations" (1938) {43}., "Considerations on the basics of the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941" (1940) {44}.

                        and even gave links to the archive, you stated
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are not far from the truth - many military historians are simply profane in military affairs, but they love to trump with their historical education.

                        Well, when it turned out that the "layman" to whom I am referring is a colonel-general, you quickly jumped off the questions that became uncomfortable for you.

                        You lie as you breathe, and you do not know what honor is. You do not have the courage to admit your own mistakes, and I doubt that you even know what courage is.

                        Now - I'm finished with you. You can still lie something goodbye, I will not answer you. My supplies of beads are not endless

                        PS By the way, Gareev, quoted by you, does not contradict Gorkov in anything, and fully confirms my position.
                      10. ccsr
                        ccsr 24 January 2021 19: 48
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Once again, I notice your complete inability to answer for your words.

                        Gorkov, with his views on a "preemptive strike", is not an authority for me - what is still incomprehensible to you?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        When I gave you the text "Considerations on the Foundations of the Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union for 1940-1941", you said with a blue eye that it was not an operational plan,

                        And he is not, based on the name and design. You have wild ideas about the staff documents, which is why you cannot understand their essence.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, when it turned out that the "layman" to whom I refer is a colonel-general,

                        What makes you think that Gorkov is a military historian - he is a military leader, not a historian who undertook to discuss pre-war planning, not even taking into account the fact that a team of military specialists published the book "Lessons and Conclusions."
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You quickly jumped off the questions that have become uncomfortable for you.

                        You have no questions, there is just your semi-literate babbling at the kindergarten level.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You lie as you breathe, and you do not know what honor is. You do not have the courage to admit your own mistakes, and I doubt that you even know what courage is.

                        So you also remembered about honor, after you were shown that you are just a layman in military affairs - originally, you will not say anything ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                        Now - I'm finished with you. You can still lie something goodbye, I will not answer you. My supplies of beads are not endless

                        Change the record - I've heard that from you several times.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        PS By the way, Gareev, quoted by you, does not contradict Gorkov in anything, and fully confirms my position.

                        At least he refutes your lie about the "preemptive strike". And Gorkov's fantasies too - you just do not understand the essence of what he writes about.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 21 January 2021 21: 04
    +1
    "But there is a fact - shortly before the war, Stalin forbade attacking first." ///
    ----
    Stalin pecked like a child on simple misinformation:
    personal letter from Hitler. Which was brought to Moscow
    at Junkers on May 15, 1941.
    Hitler railed about friendship and personal respect,
    And that the troops were at the border - for transfer to the south against England. And Stalin believed.
    After that, an order was given: not to succumb to the provocations of the Germans, not to answer.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 21 January 2021 22: 01
      +2
      This is the problem of personalist autocracies. None of the entourage would even dare to challenge the opinion (clearly erroneous) of the "leader". And one person always makes mistakes.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 22 January 2021 13: 56
        -1
        Quote: 3danimal
        And one person always makes mistakes.

        Of course, the fact that Pavlov was sitting in the theater on Saturday, June 21, and having received the Directive w / n did not even manage to raise his district by the time the Germans attacked, does not need to be taken into account, because it is much easier to hang all the blame of the military on Stalin alone. That Khrushchev did very well at the famous congress when he exposed the personality cult. But to what extent this corresponds to the truth, there are still disputes even among military professionals.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 22 January 2021 20: 21
          0
          Once again: who would dare to argue with Stalin about Germany?
          June 21 at the theater? They usually go there in the evening. From your data (if they are accurate) it turns out that ONLY 6 hours have passed since the receipt of a certain directive until the Nazis attacked. This is very little, given the low level of "anxiety", categorical instructions not to provoke the Nazis, weak command personnel. And very slow communication.
          The Germans were kept in a much more prepared state, the commanders did not know about the offensive several days in advance, and only the order “for everyone” was read out 4 hours before it. See the difference?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 23 January 2021 11: 45
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            Once again: who would dare to argue with Stalin about Germany?

            The question concerns primarily the actions of the military at the most crucial moment. And the fact that there would be a war with Germany was discussed even in the bazaars, and the overwhelming majority of the military knew very well about it.

            Quote: 3danimal
            June 21 at the theater? They usually go there in the evening.

            Yes, he was just there until 23 pm, according to the memoirs of a military leader from the Western Military District.

            Quote: 3danimal
            that it was ONLY 6 hours from the moment of receiving a certain directive to the Nazis' offensive.

            Less has passed since the decryption in the districts - 3 hours, or so.

            Quote: 3danimal
            This is very little, given the low level of "anxiety", categorical instructions not to provoke the Nazis, weak command staff.

            This time could have been enough if all the commanders did what Zakharov did. Although I understand that Tymoshenko and Zhukov are personally to blame for this.
            Quote: 3danimal
            And very slow communication.

            Command and control signals consisted of short phrases, so not much time was needed.
            Quote: 3danimal
            The Germans were kept in a much more prepared state, the commanders did not know about the offensive several days in advance, and only the order “for everyone” was read out 4 hours before it. See the difference?

            Well, if you are talking about the Germans, then keep in mind that Halder issued a directive on June 10, where he indicated the date of the attack and conventional signals. So do not confuse what was read to the soldiers of the Wehrmacht with what the commanders of the formations and the highest command personnel of the German army knew.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 24 January 2021 15: 20
              0
              So do not confuse what was read to the soldiers of the Wehrmacht with what the commanders of the formations and the highest command personnel of the German army knew.

              I do not confuse. Only the soldiers were told officially 4 hours in advance.
              Junior-middle ranks knew for several days or more. The generals are the very first.
              And the units were kept in combat readiness.
              The question concerns primarily the actions of the military at the most crucial moment.

              Until the attack, the strictest order “not to succumb to provocations” was in force, and at a certain cost of non-compliance.
              There are cases when they did not believe the reports, wasting time. Plus low initial combat readiness.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 24 January 2021 19: 38
                -1
                Quote: 3danimal
                I do not confuse. Only the soldiers were told officially 4 hours in advance.

                Do we have that soldiers assign tasks to commanders? And what difference does it make for how much they were given the task, if they are all trained, have combat experience and are fully equipped with everything necessary.

                Quote: 3danimal
                And the units were kept in combat readiness.

                Did I say the opposite for the Wehrmacht?
                Quote: 3danimal
                Until the attack, the strictest order “not to succumb to provocations” was in force, and at a certain cost of non-compliance.

                Nobody in the army prohibited personal initiative, and Zakharov proved this with his personal example on June 22, 1941.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 20 January 2021 15: 45
    0
    "It was believed that the East will be an easy walk. Russia (USSR) will collapse not only from the attacks of the Wehrmacht, but from the actions of the" fifth column ", uprisings of nationalists and the betrayal of the ruling elite." They were in a hurry and were wrong by exactly 50 years.
  • Kozak Za Bugra
    Kozak Za Bugra 20 January 2021 16: 22
    +1
    I am always amazed when they talk about the outbreak of the Second World War from the heights of our days and then conclude "how could you have believed Hitler and made a pact?" ... But then everything was not clear, for example, the United States was preparing for a war with England (which supported Japan - after all, nothing personal, just business), for example.
    In fact, England was not satisfied with the results of the First World War, which she unleashed to strengthen her status as the ruler of the seas, the colonies did not increase, although Russia collapsed, the USSR began to develop, the United States began to compete economically. As a result, the second war was needed to achieve the goals not achieved in the first world.
    (It is interesting to note the fact that the British created a racial theory back in the 20s, the Anglo-Saxons are a pure race in place with the Nordic and the Germanic race is also the highest, but there is a mixture, and the Slavs are third grade. Hitler only changed the places of the Germans and the British and "created" his own theory. )
    As a result, England, with all her efforts, intended to pit the Germans against the USSR and gave support to Hitler and tried to incite the Japanese whom they armed with the United States (by the way, according to Suvorov, one can say that this was a preemptive strike - in fact, the United States ended up in the Pacific Ocean at the insistence of England.)
    Therefore, it was clear that the war could not be avoided, but it was not clear which one, the British very skillfully played everyone off and they themselves seemed to stand aside, but, moreover, they gave open support to Hitler (Hitler himself was surprised that they then declared war on him).
    Therefore, Stalin and the United States feared that England would act together with the Germans and the Japanese, which, by the way, Hitler hoped to receive military assistance and provisions from England (as in Greece in 40-41, the British even at 43 had a plan of attack on the USSR together with the Germans "The plan is unthinkable" but the Kursk Bulge and the influence of the United States did not allow this plan to be completed) so in the worst case, Germany, Japan could attack the USSR with the support of England.
    They made such a mess, not everything turned out as desired, but everyone had to disentangle it.
    Therefore, they had to create a theory through Suvorov-Rezun that it was all Stalin's fault and they and their offspring Hitler had nothing to do with so that the remnants of prestige would not be lost.
    Although in England itself, scientists like Gabriel Gorodetsky proved the whole of Suvorov's lodges, Suvorov is further supported because it is beneficial to them.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 21 January 2021 22: 02
      +1
      USA was preparing for war with England ?? Destroyers and Lend-Leases, too, in preparation?
      Where did you get this information?
  • DWG1905
    DWG1905 20 January 2021 16: 34
    +1
    Well, in the first, Rezun was helped to write these books, the experts said that even the style is different. Those. this is a normal product of psychic struggle, it turned out very effectively, since this nonsense is still being discussed. Therefore, one must look at it calmly. In relation to the Germans, we were far from being angels, however, we were not the first to start a total war, but this topic does not need to be developed. The enemy will take advantage. We were not the first to attack the second, the plans are one, but the fact is another. In order to attack, it was necessary to declare mobilization, transfer NH on a military track, deploy troops, etc. etc. (veterans of GOU and GOMU can explain in more detail how this is done). Although we slowly began to deploy troops, this was not enough. Voroshilov proposed in the year 39-40 (I don’t remember more precisely) the actual transfer of NH on a military track, but Stalin did not agree, only the standard of living began to rise. There was hope to stay away. Now, of course, it is clear what was needed.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 20 January 2021 16: 41
    -1
    The author simply repeated the official Soviet version request
    Curious, did he read the Note of the German Foreign Ministry dated 22.04.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX?
    “Therefore, in summary, the Reich government should make the following statement:
    Contrary to all the obligations assumed and in obvious contradiction with its solemn declarations, the Soviet government turned against Germany. It
    1) not only continued, but since the beginning of the war even intensified its attempts at subversive activities directed against Germany and Europe; it
    2) increasingly gave its foreign policy a character hostile to Germany and it
    3) concentrated on the German border all their armed forces, ready to throw. "
    It is clear that the Nazis are all lying, but the secret mobilization called BUS was not denied by the USSR hi
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 20 January 2021 20: 04
      +1
      It's clear the Nazis are all lying

      Can you tell me how many horses and technicians were called to the BUS? What units and formations were equipped with traction equipment and horse personnel up to wartime states?
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 21 January 2021 10: 28
        -1
        Quote: strannik1985
        Can you tell me how many horses and technicians were called to the BUS?

        read the memoir of the beginning. General Staff of the RKKA GKZH bully
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 21 January 2021 11: 34
          0
          Quote: DrEng527
          read the memoir of the beginning. General Staff of the RKKA GKZH

          Which version? The one in which he consults with Brezhnev? wink
          You need to read the documents.
          On holding training camps liable for military service in 1941 and attracting horses and vehicles from the national economy.

          To approve the following draft resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR: "The Council of People's Commissars of the USSR decides:
          1. Allow non-profit organizations to call for military training in 1941 in the military reserve in the amount of 975.870 people, of which:
          for a period of 90 days - 192.869 people
          for 60 days - 25.000 people
          for 45 days - 754.896 people
          for 30 days - 3.105 people
          2. Allow NPOs to attract 45 horses and 57.500 vehicles for training camps from the national economy for 1.680 days, distributed according to the appendix to the republics, territories and regions.

          Then it was decided to call in about 200 more personnel of the rifle divisions - which were smeared with a thin layer in all districts, except for the Far East. KOVO (000 people) and ... Siberian Military District (27 people) became champions in obtaining these "new recruits".

          For comparison - the numbers mobilized by the official BUS in the fall of 1939:
          A total of 22 rifle, 5 cavalry and 3 tank corps, 98 rifle and 14 cavalry divisions, 28 tank divisions, 3 motorized rifle and machine-gun and 1 airborne brigades took part in the BUS. 2 people were called up, who on September 610, 136, by the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR and the order of the People's Commissar of Defense No. 22 of September 1939, were declared mobilized "until further notice." Troops also received 634 horses, 117 vehicles and 300 tractors..

          The main difference between the BUSS and the usual charges is highlighted - the massive mobilization of traction and transport.

          Particularly pleasing in the orders for training in 1941 are paragraphs like:
          To exempt from training fees in 1941 (...) all tractor drivers, combine operators for the period of the spring sowing and harvesting campaigns.

          The military council of the district / front, taking into account the interests of the national economy and local conditions, is allowed, without exceeding the total number of people involved in the training camp, to make its own changes in the specified dates for the training and in the number of people involved in each formation and separate unit.

          When organizing training camps, require commanders of units to inform the heads of industrial enterprises, collective and state farms in advance about the forthcoming involvement of military men from these enterprises and farms at training camps

          Good "hidden mobilization", the timing and number of those called up for which are determined by the sowing and harvesting companies and agreed with the directors. laughing
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 21 January 2021 12: 14
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Which version? The one in which he consults with Brezhnev?

            It was a banter ... wink
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The main difference between the BUSS and the usual charges is highlighted - the massive mobilization of traction and transport.

            while these BUS were organized early. General Staff of the RKKA BMSH, and in 1941 the great strategist of the State Conservation Committee bully
            Quote: Alexey RA
            and agreed with the directors

            this is not new, the director of the Black Sea Fleet was in command in winter ... wink
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 21 January 2021 16: 20
              0
              at the same time, these BUS were organized by the head of the General Staff of the RKKA BMSh, and in 1941 the great strategist of the State Conservation Committee

              It is not the responsibility of the country's top military and political leadership to determine what is the BUS and what is the hidden mobilization; such issues are not addressed by NPOs and NGSs. In fact, BUS-1941 was the usual military training.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 21 January 2021 16: 35
                0
                Quote: strannik1985
                the prerogative of the country's highest military and political leadership

                if not a secret - the People's Commissar and the beginning. Is the GS not included in this manual? recourse
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 22 January 2021 11: 24
                  0
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  if not a secret - the People's Commissar and the beginning. Is the GS not included in this manual?

                  Enter. But they don't decide for themselves. The decision on full or partial mobilization must be approved by the IVS.
                  Moreover, the Red commanders should have had a very good memory in their memory - which leads to self-righteousness in matters of mobilization. Just three years earlier, citizen Blucher had been brought under the Navy, including just for conducting unauthorized full mobilization in the district, which could provoke Japan into a full-scale war.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 January 2021 11: 20
              0
              Quote: DrEng527

              while these BUS were organized early. General Staff of the RKKA BMSH, and in 1941 the great strategist of the State Conservation Committee

              This was not the case in 1941. BUS. Therefore, it is incorrect to compare BUS-39 and US-41.
              The 1941 training camp is the usual training camp for enrolled personnel. As a result, mutant divisions of 12000 people were formed in the Red Army, in which the combat strength was overstaffed (in some units it was already double), and management, logistics and transport remained at the level of a peacetime cropped division.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 22 January 2021 11: 55
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The 1941 training camp is the usual training camp for enrolled personnel.

                Usually they were presented as BUSS - or were they covered in hindsight?
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 20 January 2021 20: 38
    -1
    The military-political leadership of the USSR was preparing the country for war in the summer of 1941 and precisely for the war that began in reality. The "preemptive" strike is, of course, a myth. The Germans should have believed in the preparations of the USSR to attack Germany (but they did not believe it either). The Soviet leadership deliberately and deliberately gave the initiative to the enemy for political reasons
  • Avior
    Avior 20 January 2021 20: 47
    +2
    I read the thread
    In our opinion, all these are just attempts to draw a conclusion about the political Soviet plans based on indirect indications of military plans.
    But these political plans could not but leave a direct reflection in the documents. On a national scale, Stalin could not keep everything in his head, it cannot be that the top Soviet leadership at a meeting of the Politburo, relatively speaking, did not ask directly - what are we planning to do next, Joseph Vissarionovich? There is no doubt that further political plans are in varying degrees of detail - in the form of a memo, minutes, etc.
    Much less significant events were perfectly reflected in the documents. The state machine leaves direct evidence in such matters, otherwise it simply cannot work.
    Why we still haven't seen them is a big question. What is it about them that they still lie somewhere in the folders?
    And we, 80 years after the events, after a cardinal change of power in the country, are still trying to guess by indirect signs what kind of plans were there?
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 21 January 2021 13: 05
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    The idea of ​​a preemptive strike was born briefly in early 41, when
    it was already clear that the Nazis would attack the USSR.

    1. The idea of ​​ET was born only in the minds of some General Staff officers and was rejected very quickly as deeply mistaken and leading to disaster.
    2. On the moral side, the USSR had more reason to wage a preventive war against Germany than Germany against the USSR.
  • Jarl
    Jarl 27 January 2021 15: 46
    0
    Even so ...
    Should you turn the other cheek? No! It was necessary to chop off all of Europe before the Germans hit. What Stalin was going to do. Otherwise, "The Man in the High Castle" would be a reality ...
    If it were not for the merits of Joseph Vissarionovich in the militarization / industrialization of the country in such a short time and only by such methods, then we would be blacks on the plantations of the fascists.
    What was, what was. The main thing is not to forget the bad, so as not to step on the same rake.
    PS
    Zhukov once blurted out: "The command is to blame"
    Who was in command? Isn't he?
  • PVM
    PVM 17 February 2021 11: 01
    0
    Skoko strategists and all the "couches". So I want to "podivanit".
    Appeal to Viktor Suvorov
    Dear Viktor Suvorov.
    You have written historically accurate books. They are based mainly on open sources and on archival data, as well as on the memories of not "important" people who have not been awarded high positions and honors. These people had no reason to lie about our history. They tried to refute you. But V. Suvorov's historical truth and historical logic completely coincide. And the detractors of V. Suvorov just have this "tension". No one has proved that the writer and historian V. Suvorov was wrong in some way.
    If only in some little things. But the writer and historian V. Suvorov was afraid or he was ordered to keep silent about the historical actions of the world "behind the scenes". He blamed everything on the supposedly independent actions of Stalin and Hitler. But long ago it was proved that they were recruited agents of influence of the world "behind the scenes".
    The Rothschilds and others like them brought the Bolsheviks to power (they paid for the organization of recruitment, organization of a coup, etc.) in 1917 as their recruited agents of influence. Including Stalin, who was put on the "throne" in the USSR.
    The Rothschilds and accomplices "muddied" the USSR, in which they carried out "industrialization" (militarization) for the currency and gold of the USSR. The industry developed mainly military.
    Have donated thousands of tanks, planes, ships, etc., etc.
    Recruited by the Rothschilds, Stalin and Zhukov and others in the summer of 1941 surrendered the Red Army to the complete defeat of the Germans. Then they recruited and armed the same Red Army and also surrendered to the Germans under defeat, during 1942. Then another Red Army in 1943. And only the Third and Fourth Red Army began to slowly, with huge losses, squeeze the enemy out of their territory. At the end of the war, there was no one to call on. Barely "won".
    And the world "behind the scenes" "got rich".
    Stalin had no plans to seize Europe and could not have!
    He was a Rothschild-ruled doll and the USSR was a direct Rothschild-ruled state. For the time being, Stalin was led by the nose, possibly promising to make him "the king of Europe." But this assumption is controversial. He just strictly followed the instructions of the Rothschilds and was under their full control. The Rothschilds had no plans for the capture of Europe by the USSR. Maybe this situation was played, but it was not planned as a working one.
    And no supporting documents were found. Almost the entire Red Army was simply thrown out on the western border under the defeat of the Germans in order to stretch WW2 according to the plans of the world "behind the scenes". Where the victory of the USSR over Germany was also planned.
    Dear V. Suvorov, maybe it's time to write historical books about the real actions of the world "behind the scenes" in persons?
  • Vladimir
    Vladimir 17 February 2021 13: 05
    0
    There was nothing wrong with the plans for a preemptive strike against the German troops ready to attack. Let us recall how counter-artillery preparation knocked the spirit out of the offensive of the Nazis on the Kursk Bulge.
    Yes, we were preparing for offensive actions. Let's read the book of the veteran-border guard Major General Vladimir Gorodinsky "Truth of history or mythology?"
    Three months before the start of the war with Germany, the NKVD leadership planned to deploy 21 camps and 40 reception centers for prisoners of war, whom it was planned to take prisoners from 8 to 30 thousand people every single day. After all, not in defense. As the author writes, in the directions of the alleged strikes, the border detachments were withdrawn inland, transferring sections of the border to the regular units of the Red Army. That is, the border troops carried out in mid-June 1941 the points of a certain offensive plan, not defense.
    If there is anything to blame our political leadership for (and for what there is), it is not for that.
  • Vladimir
    Vladimir 17 February 2021 14: 23
    0
    The Soviet leadership itself most clearly confirmed the assertions that the Stalinist and Hitlerite regimes are one field of fruit. It is enough to read the Molotov Memorandum of November 25, 1940, in which Moscow asked to be the fourth figure in the fascist-militarist Axis Berlin - Rome - Tokyo.
    Hitler was not satisfied only by the Kremlin's appetites to wash boots in the waters of the Indian Ocean, to control the Black Sea straits and Bulgaria, to turn German troops out of Finland ...
  • Vladimir
    Vladimir 17 February 2021 14: 36
    0
    Yes, they themselves were preparing to get ahead and attack the enemy who was preparing to attack.
    One can refer, in particular, to the book of the veteran-border guard Major General Vladimir Gorodinsky "The Truth of History or Mythology".
    Three months before the start of the war with Germany, the NKVD leadership planned to deploy 21 camps and 40 reception centers for prisoners of war. It was planned to take them every single day from 8 to 30 thousand. This is possible only on the offensive. In addition, the author discovered in a number of memoirs and documents that in the directions of the alleged attacks, the border detachments were withdrawn inland, transferring sections of the border to regular units of the Red Army. Very clear evidence of the fulfillment in mid-June 1941 of the points of a certain offensive plan.
  • Vladimir
    Vladimir 17 February 2021 14: 44
    0
    1. Yes, we ourselves were preparing to outrun and attack in June 1941 the enemy prepared for an attack.
    One can refer, in particular, to the book of the veteran-border guard Major General Vladimir Gorodinsky "The Truth of History or Mythology".
    Three months before the start of the war with Germany, the NKVD leadership planned to deploy 21 camps and 40 reception centers for prisoners of war. It was planned to take them every single day from 8 to 30 thousand. This is possible only on the offensive. In addition, the author found in a number of memoirs and documents that border detachments were withdrawn inland in the directions of the alleged attacks. Their sections of the border were occupied by regular units of the Red Army. Very clear evidence of the fulfillment in mid-June 1941 of the points of a certain offensive plan.
    2. And the fact that the Stalinist and Hitlerite regimes are one field of berries was best confirmed by the USSR itself, having asked for it on November 25, 1940, to the fascist-militarist Axis Berlin-Rome-Tokyo. See the Molotov Memorandum. But they got a shock. Berlin did not like the Kremlin's intentions to wash boots in the waters of the Indian Ocean, to control the Black Sea straits and Bulgaria, to kick German troops out of Finland ...
  • yehat2
    yehat2 20 February 2021 18: 55
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    It was their fatal mistake, because they did not take into account the military potential of the USSR.

    here you yourself made a mistake. The Wehrmacht just completed the initial task, grinding a significant part of the regular troops of the USSR, but they underestimated not the military, but the industrial, mobilization and moral potential, which at first critically delayed the offensive, and then actually destroyed the chances of victory for the Reich.
  • zav
    zav 3 March 2021 15: 05
    0
    Some kind of superstitious horror in the author of the possible recognition by Russia of plans for a preventive Stalinist strike on Europe. And why? What is unusual and abnormal in these plans for that pre-war era?
    And even for this one. Preventive strikes against Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Crimea and Syria are not the realities of today. And the projected US strike on Iran, isn't it the reality of tomorrow?
    Is not Stalin's duty as head of state to prepare a preemptive strike against Europe within the framework of the ongoing world war? Isn't Europe, which dragged Russia into the world slaughter, and achieved its defeat and decline, and then began to intervene, is not "worthy" of a retaliatory strike?
    Under the communists, general considerations prevented the recognition of the obvious, but the main thing was the desire to please countries that had not determined their sympathies in order to drag them over to the communist side of development.
    And under Putin's capitalists - not to give the West a reason, to finally bring Russia down and to begin, under a plausible pretext, to confiscate the dough that was transported over the hill, confiscated from the population of Russia.