Military Review

Problems of morality and discipline of the Soviet Army. CIA opinion

251

Photo by Georgy B.


A declassified intelligence memorandum "Problems of Morality and Discipline in the Armed Forces of the USSR" dated April 1977 was published on the website of the US Central Intelligence Agency. Studied the Soviet press (the newspaper "Krasnaya Zvezda", the magazine "Soviet warrior", etc.), TV programs, interviewed defectors, collected rumors and information about the life of numerous garrisons outside the USSR.

According to CIA analysts, the chronic problems of the Soviet Armed Forces were:

- political discontent;
- ethnic relationships;
- disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants;
- hazing;
- alcoholism;
- drug abuse;
- desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit;
- suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
- black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military, as well as in civilian life.

Political discontent


Open dissent among the Soviet civilian intelligentsia resonated with the army. Military involvement in the dissident movement can be explained historical communication between officers and intelligentsia in Russian society. Political discontent may also be related to the deployment of a predominantly Slavic officer corps in areas populated by non-Slavic minorities.

In these areas, officers are faced with strong regional nationalism, which contradicts the official concept of the unity of the entire Soviet people. The contrast between the officer's convictions and his observations leads to internal contradictions. The rank and file, however, are less susceptible to this kind of pressure than the officers, due to their less frequent contact with others.

Ethnic relations


The policy of dispersing ethnic minorities in the military is in part designed to promote a national Soviet identity that transcends ethnic loyalty. Dispersion excludes ethnically homogeneous units who, in times of crisis, may be more loyal to their ethnic compatriots than to the central government.

The relative lack of education of some ethnic minorities does not allow them to be admitted to certain specialties and, therefore, excludes the filling of related posts by persons of the same ethnic origin.

The Soviet military has no alternative to ethnic integration, despite the side effect of increased ethnic strife. Soldiers from the Muslim minorities of Central Asia and the Caucasus are the main targets of ethnic tensions due to the racism of other soldiers, lack of adequate education, inability to speak Russian and other lifestyles.

Allowing Jews and Germans to emigrate from the USSR led to discrimination against these nationalities, limited their ability to enter military schools because of fears of violating the secrecy regime.

Disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and non-commissioned officers


The magazine "Communist of the Armed Forces" (No. 5, March 1976):

“It is known that some officers do not always succeed in maintaining the correct soldier order and organization in their units. Most often this happens because, by demanding strict adherence to rules or instructions from subordinates, they themselves do not set an example. "

Young Soviet officers tend to maintain informal contact with the rank and file, because most Soviet NCOs are conscripts who serve only two years, their inexperience forces junior officers to provide direct control. As a result, there is no separation between officers and privates, and a violation of command can go unpunished.

In some specialized units, commanders weaken disciplinary responsibility due to inadequate support from superiors or due to dependence on the activities of subordinates, the need to fulfill the plan. The Soviet press, in general, pays little attention to discipline in military construction units.

Hazing


The Soviet command admits that the arrival of inexperienced recruits into the army creates opportunities for abuse by senior conscripts. Senior conscripts of all ranks intimidate recruits and force them to do tedious jobs in their place. The Soviet educational system can encourage such abuse.

Major General D. Volkogonov, wrote in the magazine "Soviet Warrior" (No. 12, June 1976) that

the relationship between members of the military tends to be dependent on informal leaders who transcend military ranks. Sometimes it happens that the “leader” in a squad or crew may be a person with negative characteristics that do not contribute to the establishment of a healthy moral atmosphere.

Alcoholism


Alcoholism widespread in Soviet society has its roots outside the army.

The current economic system counteracts the success of the official anti-alcohol campaign. The need to fulfill the sales plan forces the Soviet trade organizations to increase the number of liquor stores. Vodka also contributes significantly to government revenues. Lack of entertainment for young people leads to drinking. After being drafted, these young people bring alcoholic habits into the army.

In 1974, the chief military prosecutor reported to Krasnaya Zvezda that

"More than a third of all violations are committed while intoxicated"

[further in the memorandum there is a description of examples of drunkenness among officers from the Soviet military press].

As a result, according to American intelligence officers, it is possible to attach some importance to the statement of the defector [probably V. Belenko, approx. author] that Soviet pilots daily drink an average of 250 grams of vodka.

The ingenuity and unpretentiousness of the Soviet soldiers in the search for alcoholic beverages is noted. Homemade wash, hydraulic fluids, shaving lotions, varnishes - anything that contains alcohol is used.

Drug abuse


Drug abuse appears to be less common among the Soviet military than alcoholism. In various forms known as plan or marijuana, cannabis is the most commonly used drug. This can occur mainly in the Islamic regions around the Black, Caspian and Aral seas.

Conscripts from these areas smuggle cannabis to East Germany or receive it in packets from home. The traditional use of hashish in Central Asia makes these claims credible. There were no cases of drug abuse among officers.

Desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit


The scale of desertion can be estimated from the analysis of a textbook for one of the military schools [data from the textbook has been removed from the memorandum]. The book describes in detail 2000 attempts to escape through the Soviet border during 1965, of which the Soviet Army made 500 attempts and another 200 - border guards.

The figure of 500 deserters for 1965 is the minimum because it does not include those caught before reaching the border, who did not try to leave the USSR, who deserted from units outside the Soviet Union, or whose escape was erroneously classified as unauthorized abandonment. 300 of these deserters were officers.

If the statistics are correct, then serious questions arise about the political loyalty of the Soviet officer corps. [The following is information about 62 cases of desertion in the period 1967-1976. Probably, we are talking about successful escapes from the USSR].

Restrictions on the exit of Soviet soldiers outside the garrisons, except for the rare short leave, leads to numerous cases of unauthorized abandonment of units. Because of this prohibition, AWOL is almost a prerequisite for purchasing alcohol and drugs or for trading on the black market.

Suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population


Just as alcoholism, drug addiction and desertion, so suicide is perceived by the Soviet soldier as one of the ways to avoid the unbearable conditions of military service. Based on the analysis of 16 suicide reports over the past 10 years, an indicator of 1,53 cases per thousand military personnel is displayed.

A similar indicator among the civilian population, according to the emigrant, is 0,17 cases per thousand inhabitants of the USSR (official data are classified).

Black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military as well as in civilian life


Black markets are a specific feature of the Soviet Union because the production of consumer goods is limited and the industrial supply system often fails. Such problems are transferred to the army [examples are given of the theft and sale of military uniforms, fuel, spare parts and products in parts from Hungary to the Soviet-Chinese border].

Officers can also take advantage of the practice (known as patronage) of providing military personnel to civilian factories and farms that lack hired labor. Patronage is widely practiced in Soviet units, usually by order of the local party leadership. This provides a compelling cover for extra cash on the side.

Having highlighted such problems, the authors of the memorandum note that

“Alcoholism, the black market, drug addiction, ethnic strife, political discontent and abuse of power are deeply rooted in Soviet civilian life. Most likely, military service only aggravates these shortcomings.

The Soviet military's own bureaucracy has hampered efforts to improve morale and discipline. It is logical to assume that officers, whose career development depends on records in their personal files, are not ready to inform the command about the true situation.

Many Soviet garrisons are turning into Potemkin villages. "

conclusions


In the final part, the authors of the memorandum are in no hurry to assess the overall combat capability of the Soviet Army. In their opinion, discipline breakers will inevitably be found among the 4 million military personnel. The collected data does not allow us to estimate the proportion of such people among the Soviet military, especially since

"The direct link between discipline, morale and military effectiveness is in doubt."

But, as the CIA believed, the total number of suicides and the increase in alcoholism should be considered a sign of serious problems.

Stronger command oversight can reduce the number of disciplinary offenses, but

"Soviet military morale has little chance of improvement."

"Most Soviet young people do not seek to serve in the army, and any future improvement in the general standard of living will make military service even less attractive."

To solve problems in the armed forces, systemic changes are required, wrote in Langley, for which the Soviet leadership is not ready.

The work ends with the remark that

"It is difficult to assess how the flaws in the morale and discipline of the peacetime army would be affected by possible Soviet involvement in any unpopular war."

The text of the memorandum has been removed from the public domain on the CIA website, but you can still read it by link.
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  1. nnm
    nnm 19 January 2021 12: 12
    +5
    According to CIA analysts, the chronic problems of the Soviet Armed Forces were:

    - political discontent; - NONSENSE!
    - ethnic relationships;
    - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants; - SHOOT!
    - hazing;
    - alcoholism; - SHOOT!
    - drug abuse; - SHOOT!
    - desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit;
    - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population; - TOTAL CRASH!
    - black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military, as well as in civilian life. - SHOOT!

    It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.
    1. apro
      apro 19 January 2021 12: 28
      +10
      they understood our problems in their own way. but they were ... you can't get away from it. but how critical is another question. I think the main problem is the junior command staff of the conscript service. There must be professionals. I did not particularly notice drunkenness. I was anti-Soviet. I served 88 90 it was already blooming everywhere.
      1. atalef
        atalef 21 January 2021 06: 10
        -1
        Quote: apro
        they understood our problems in their own way. but they were ... you can't get away from it. but how critical is another question. I think the main problem is the junior command staff of the conscript service. There must be professionals. I did not particularly notice drunkenness. I was anti-Soviet. I served 88 90 it was already blooming everywhere.

        I served in the VKS (then it was called VKS GUKOS) --- 88-90.
        All this was, although the unit was generally quite elite and there was practically no Caucasus, and if they did, they were sent straight to the guard company. There were about 1200 officers and warrant officers for 2000 conscripts. Nevertheless, everything was hazing, and they were drinking in some departments just in black. I did not see anything in this report - which was not, if not together in my unit, so in others parts where friends served were and, and in some even worse.
        1. luxing
          luxing 21 January 2021 09: 13
          +1
          In your time and in mine, I later served, all this was, but you don’t equal the years in which they made the report: dated April 1977, in those years this was not particularly so ...
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 21 January 2021 12: 57
          +1
          Quote: atalef
          I served in the VKS (then it was called VKS GUKOS) --- 88-90.

          In fact, the VKS were created in 1992, so you could not serve in them - in your years there was GUKOS.
          Quote: atalef
          , and booze in some departments just black.

          Tell these fairy tales to someone else, especially those who themselves did 8-10 shootings per day on combat duty. By the way, in which region your service took place, I'm just interested to understand where so many officers served.
          1. atalef
            atalef 22 January 2021 18: 15
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            By the way, in which region your service took place, I'm just interested to understand where so many officers served.

            Evpatoria - 19.
            The 40th separate command and measuring complex (Center for Long-Range Space Communication) (NIP-16, military unit 81415) as part of the Main Test Space Center named after G. S. Titov of the Aerospace Forces, is located in the village of Vitino, not far from Evpatoria (Crimea ). The territory of the center was divided into three sites. It has two codes in the list of observatories of the Minor Planet Center: 255 (Evpatoria, RT-70) and B17 (AZT-8 Evpatoria, AZT-8).
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 22 January 2021 18: 55
              +1
              Quote: atalef
              Evpatoria - 19.

              I know this MCC, I worked with them on "Almazy" in one "circular". A serious organization, and not the worst in the country, so I don’t strongly believe you that the officers did not want to serve there, and dreamed of getting to the NPC or KIK in Transbaikalia, for example, for drunkenness or immorality.

              Quote: atalef
              Well, my diesel power station - 3000 was in general on the outskirts of the technical territory

              Well, how could you know what was going on on duty if you were not allowed to go to combat posts? I don't need to rub it in - at best, you and the warrant officer could run on call if something in the energy sector or ventilation happens in the technical buildings. And that's all - then you all the time sat at your post and could only leave it with the permission of the shift supervisor.
              Quote: atalef
              in general, the service was great, I can't say anything bad.

              I completely agree with this - we also had no fools who dreamed of serving in the infantry or somewhere else, because they had an air defense regiment and a construction battalion before their eyes. And they perfectly understood where to serve better, so they tried not to fly.
              1. atalef
                atalef 23 January 2021 03: 46
                0
                Quote: ccsr
                I know this MCC, I worked with them on "Almazy" in one "circular". Serious organization, and not the worst in the country, so I don’t strongly believe you that the officers there did not want to serve

                And I wrote somewhere. we didn't want to serve 7
                Although there was one starley, a programmer. dreamed of quitting - they did not let me. until, with a general formation, he went to the plc on a donkey. sitting backwards in one tunic and shorts and chatting a book - in the evening I was already a civilian
                Quote: ccsr
                Well, how could you know what was going on on duty if you were not allowed to go to combat posts?

                why did you decide so?
                Energovzvod was part of the duty shift and we had access to all those buildings and knew perfectly well what was going on where.

                Quote: ccsr
                And that's all - then you all the time sat at your post and could only leave it with the permission of the shift supervisor.

                come on . are you an officer? You do not know what and where and how the soldiers did. Where were you . where we went. where and who has what connections.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 23 January 2021 12: 20
                  0
                  Quote: atalef
                  dreamed of quitting - they did not let me.

                  This is not just a problem with your MCC, because it has happened in other parts as well, but in your system much less often than in others.
                  Quote: atalef
                  Energovzvod was part of the duty shift and we had access to all those buildings and knew perfectly well what was going on where.

                  They had access, but they could only arrive in an emergency situation - no one would allow you to wander around the buildings without a call, at least in terms of cleanliness in the premises and the secrecy regime.
                  Quote: atalef
                  are you an officer? You do not know what and where and how the soldiers did.

                  I know what they were doing, because I went to the shift myself, and sometimes they also presented their own surprises.
                  Quote: atalef
                  Where were you . where we went. where and who has what connections.

                  And where should they go if the perimeter was under an alarm, and the platoon commanders brought them from shift to shift? Some of us could not get into the company for weeks, especially when the dismissal was taking place, so they had nowhere to go.
                  In general, I know your kitchen - we had a unit commander and chief of staff from Baikonur, they personally knew Gagarin and, under the leadership of Korolev, took part in the first launches. So I don't need to rub in - I know approximately how you served, especially since I have been to Shchelkovo-7 more than once.
                  1. atalef
                    atalef 23 January 2021 17: 01
                    0
                    Quote: ccsr
                    This is not just a problem with your MCC, because it has happened in other parts as well, but in your system much less often than in others.

                    Of course, the main contingent of officers was Mozhayka and Mai. Intelligent audience. The militants were not liked
                    Quote: ccsr
                    They had access, but they could only arrive in an emergency situation - no one would allow you to wander around the buildings without a call, at least in terms of cleanliness in the premises and the secrecy regime.

                    life in the unit began after 17.00, soldiers ruled, officers went home. Connections opened everything that was needed. Of course, we didn't have to fucking crawl, but in all the central apartment buildings and those buildings I walked. It was just interesting. I have been interested in technology since childhood
                    Quote: ccsr
                    I know what they were doing, because I went to the shift myself, and sometimes they also presented their own surprises.

                    Do you know? No one knows. I know what I'm talking about.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    And where should they go if the perimeter was under alarm

                    Through DES into AWOL. And I was the owner at DES. Perimeter under alarm --- you smile at me.
                    It was 800m from me to the sea, and the fence was common with the pioneer camp
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Did the platoon commanders bring them from shift to shift?

                    no. a sergeant, somewhere a warrant officer, somewhere an officer - everything depended on the department.
                    all met at the tsup, on the parade ground at the divorce of duty shifts.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Some of us couldn't get into the company for weeks,

                    I haven't lived in a company for over a year. it didn't stop me from walking where I wanted and how I wanted.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    we had a unit commander and chief of staff from Baikonur, they personally knew Gagarin and, under the leadership of Korolev, took part in the first launches.

                    okay and? how does this relate to the reality of NIP-16 in 1988?
                    Quote: ccsr
                    So I don't need to rub in - I know approximately how you served, especially since I have been to Shchelkovo-7 more than once.

                    lye is 32103 and near Moscow. and we are Evpatoria and 34436. what is the connection? request
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 23 January 2021 17: 42
                      0
                      Quote: atalef
                      life in the unit began after 17.00, soldiers ruled, officers went home.

                      Lies, because the duty shift remained all at the posts, and the duty officer was obliged to check the guard at least a couple of times, if you had one, of course.
                      Quote: atalef
                      Do you know? No one knows. I know what I'm talking about.

                      Of course, not everyone knew, but they themselves told a lot after their dismissal. However, even now some of the conscripts call me, but already very rarely. But in my classmates and on the site of the unit, I met those with whom I served in my youth.
                      Quote: atalef
                      Through DES into AWOL. And I was the owner at DES. Perimeter under alarm --- you smile at me.

                      So you had collective farm orders there, and I served where it was normal - we were from another department.

                      Quote: atalef
                      no. a sergeant, somewhere a warrant officer, somewhere an officer - everything depended on the department.

                      Something I don't understand - you didn't have platoon commanders for that?
                      From the battalion, all were brought by one commander, regardless of which department were the fighters, and here are the officers of the departments?
                      Quote: atalef
                      okay and? how does this relate to the reality of NIP-16 in 1988?

                      The orders were the same in this system. That's why I don't really believe in your "raspberry".
                      Quote: atalef
                      lye is 32103 and near Moscow. and we are Evpatoria and 34436. what is the connection?

                      The most direct one - we worked on some low-orbit objects, because were at the same longitude.
          2. atalef
            atalef 22 January 2021 18: 17
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            In fact, the VKS were created in 1992, so you could not serve in them - in your years there was GUKOS.

            yes, it was called GUKOS, but all of us and the officers called the VKS the same.
          3. atalef
            atalef 22 January 2021 18: 19
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            Tell these fairy tales to someone else, especially those who themselves did 8-10 rentals per day on alert.

            Yes, I have only been on combat duty for 2 years, this did not prevent the communications department or MCC not only from drinking, but also from carrying women to the technical buildings.
            Well, my DPP-3000 station was generally located on the outskirts of the technical territory - in general, the service was great, I can't say anything bad.
      2. PROVINCIAL
        PROVINCIAL 21 January 2021 18: 42
        0
        This problem is still relevant. There is no connection (spiritual, disciplinary, etc.) between the top and bottom. And not only in the army, but also in society.
    2. paul3390
      paul3390 19 January 2021 12: 30
      +11
      In general, exactly everything that has been said can be applied to the US Armed Forces .. Especially today ..
      1. anjey
        anjey 19 January 2021 13: 56
        +12
        And multiplied by 10 from our shortcomings, and if you also take transgender people and all sorts of ... health, the US Army will be in the first place laughingfrom the bottom. laughing
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 January 2021 23: 24
        +1
        Quote: paul3390
        In general, exactly everything that has been said can be applied to the US Armed Forces.

        This type of litter in the eye of a neighbor is more visible than a log in his own.
        Particularly amused:
        Most Soviet young people do not seek to serve in the army

        And, allegedly, their proposal followed that with an improvement in living standards it would be even worse. Yeah, that's why in the states no one especially (with rare exceptions) dreams of service. Even for a solid income.
        1. 210ox
          210ox 20 January 2021 08: 46
          +7
          Notice that political discontent comes first. Yes, there was no such word AT ALL. In any case, when I served in 82-84. Everything else can be attributed to any army in the world. Multiplied many times.
          1. Ryazan87
            Ryazan87 20 January 2021 15: 40
            +3
            Average ratings always leave room for justifiable criticism. The Soviet army was very heterogeneous in its training, supplies, and conditions of service.
            The GSVG is one thing, and some remote garrison in Transbaikalia is another.
            But the main problems are highlighted quite accurately: the lack of a professional non-commissioned officer corps, interethnic tensions, hazing and the penetration of near-criminal norms of behavior, constant distraction for household and construction work. As for alcoholism, it is rather a problem of the Soviet commanders (it was simply more difficult for soldiers to get this very alcohol).
            1. Alexander Kopychev
              Alexander Kopychev 20 January 2021 17: 15
              +1
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              The GSVG is one thing, and some remote garrison in Transbaikalia is another.

              EXACTLY!!! Only the CIA collected their "information" almost on construction battalions. But whether the GSVG was in their teeth is a question ...
          2. your1970
            your1970 20 January 2021 22: 44
            +1
            Quote: 210ox
            Notice that political discontent comes first. Yes, there was no such word AT ALL. In any case, when I served in 82-84.

            and in 1988 the guys from Ternopil were already saying to me - "Ridna Nenka Ukraine feeds all your poor USSR." And they said this in all seriousness ...
            1. atalef
              atalef 21 January 2021 06: 12
              -1
              Quote: your1970
              and in 1988 the guys from Ternopil were already saying to me - "Ridna Nenka Ukraine feeds all your poor USSR." And they said this in all seriousness ...

              Yes . I remember being called up like normal, and returning from holidays (somewhere in the year 89) and began.
              1. your1970
                your1970 21 January 2021 08: 13
                +1
                They told me this in the summer of 1988 - they just served a month. They have already come to the army with this in their brains
        2. sniperino
          sniperino 21 January 2021 19: 22
          0
          Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
          Particularly amused:
          Most Soviet young people do not seek to serve in the army
          According to my feelings from the beginning of the 70s, by the end of the 80s, the number of those wishing to derail or catch on to a university with a military department, so as not to go into the army for 2 years, was constantly increasing. But even about the end of the 70s, I would not say that those were the majority; for many it was a manifestation of weakness, cowardice. And the criminals like generally wrote about the 60s, which is even less likely.
      3. seregatara1969
        seregatara1969 20 January 2021 13: 46
        +3
        And how FSE zhurnalyugs again confused bullying with hazing among military personnel. There were all sorts of military men. When the battalion chief of staff came down to our company floor, in the summer even officers from the office jumped out the windows, he was strict, hot-tempered but fair.
        1. Alexander Kopychev
          Alexander Kopychev 20 January 2021 17: 23
          0
          Quote: seregatara1969
          When the battalion chief of staff came down to our company floor, in the summer even officers from the office jumped out the windows, he was strict, hot-tempered but fair.

          The same "byada" and I had. As soon as the "father-battalion commander" went into the battery ... And after all, no one knew his guilt ... He just came to carry the service, and not to poison jokes. laughing
    3. Alexga
      Alexga 19 January 2021 12: 37
      +13
      You are completely right, something changed in the late 80s, but it was not in the 70s. Isolated cases could have occurred, but this cannot be considered a regularity.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 14: 32
        +8
        I served in the mid-70s, and when it comes to discipline-related issues, it was even worse than in the article. And these were not isolated cases.
        1. sgrabik
          sgrabik 19 January 2021 16: 40
          +4
          What, you served in the construction battalion ???
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 17: 43
            +9
            Politeness not trained?
    4. Alexfly
      Alexfly 19 January 2021 12: 39
      +1
      You are right, most likely the Yankees drew from themselves ... 20 years earlier Vietnam
    5. Torins
      Torins 19 January 2021 12: 45
      +19
      It looks like you didn't know the Soviet army at all)
    6. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 19 January 2021 13: 01
      -2
      It turns out that the vaunted CIA knew practically nothing about the Soviet Army. So, at the level of rumors and gossip))))
      1. atalef
        atalef 21 January 2021 06: 13
        0
        Quote: TermNachTER
        It turns out that the vaunted CIA knew practically nothing about the Soviet Army. So, at the level of rumors and gossip))))

        come on, admit it to yourself.
        In the early 70s, hazing bloomed and booted, the only question in the report was that the bulk of the masses did not want to serve - I did not notice this, but everything else is true.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 21 January 2021 12: 52
          +1
          And in their army they don’t thump, don’t inject, no hazing? Booze and deed in those parts where the officers (ensign) allowed. In our company, there was one grandfather - the company commander, Major Bochkayev, CCM in boxing, from the second time it came to the most stupid))))
          1. atalef
            atalef 22 January 2021 18: 16
            0
            Quote: TermNachTER
            In our company, there was one grandfather - the company commander, Major Bochkayev, CCM in boxing, from the second time it came to the most stupid))))

            and what did this CCM boxing major do for that?
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 22 January 2021 23: 11
              0
              individual training in hand-to-hand))))
              1. atalef
                atalef 23 January 2021 03: 46
                0
                Quote: TermNachTER
                individual training in hand-to-hand))))

                Well, in general, everything is like in the CIA report.
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 23 January 2021 11: 28
                  +2
                  The opposite is true. At first, the moron was explained in words that there was no bullying in the company at all, from the word at all. If I didn't understand, they explained it differently. And there really was no hazing in the company. Everything depended on the officers and warrant officers. If they wanted, then everything was fine, but if they didn't give a fuck, then yes)))
                  1. atalef
                    atalef 23 January 2021 16: 51
                    0
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    The opposite is true. At first, the moron was explained in words that there was no bullying in the company at all, from the word at all. If I didn't understand, they explained it differently.

                    this is how they explained that there is no hazing 7 In my opinion, when not, there is nothing to explain
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    And there really was no hazing in the company. Everything depended on the officers and warrant officers. If they wanted, then everything was fine, but if they didn't give a fuck, then yes)

                    strange comment. Those. was not today - was tomorrow?
                    1. TermNachTer
                      TermNachTer 23 January 2021 22: 11
                      0
                      For the first part, different people came to the company, and there were those who had to explain. According to the second, I'm not talking about my company, but about others. In our company, on the very first day, the company commander gathered the new arrivals and said: "We have no hazing and the FSE))))" He explained only to the dull ones)))))
                2. ccsr
                  ccsr 23 January 2021 12: 25
                  0
                  Quote: atalef
                  Well, in general, everything is like in the CIA report.

                  So it tempts to ask, and you yourself once knitted a drunken soldier who yelled in good language that he would kill all the officers, and generally shoot everyone on guard. I think that analysts from the CIA knew badly about our life, otherwise they would have understood that in such cases it was necessary to use brute physical force, according to the rights given to the commander by law.
    7. Reklastik
      Reklastik 19 January 2021 13: 24
      +4
      It seems that they did not know us at all in those years
      ... In July 1983, Andropov Yu.V., one of the few clever late leaders of the USSR, said: “To be frank, we have not yet adequately studied the society in which we live and work, have not fully revealed its inherent patterns, especially economic. Therefore, sometimes we are forced to act, so to speak, empirically, a very irrational method of trial and error. " He honestly spoke and admitted many things that were officially said in a completely different way. So who here did not know us in those years: the CIA or ourselves, especially the KGB?
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 19 January 2021 13: 33
        +10
        one of the few smart late leaders of the USSR
        the one who bet on Gorbachev?
        1. for
          for 19 January 2021 14: 16
          -4
          Quote: Gardamir
          the one who bet on Gorbachev?

          From the grave?
          1. mmaxx
            mmaxx 21 January 2021 03: 37
            0
            He did not play it. But he promoted it as promising. Plus Yakovlev, Shevardnadze.
            1. for
              for 21 January 2021 04: 06
              0
              But promoted as promising

              He was not the only one who promoted it. There Brezhnev, Kosygin, etc. Let’s then start with the one who promoted on the Komsomol line and that he was born.
              1. mmaxx
                mmaxx 21 January 2021 13: 39
                -1
                I was also promoted along the Komsomol line. And Andropov is a dark horse. And all the main perestroika cadres moved to them
              2. sniperino
                sniperino 21 January 2021 19: 36
                0
                Quote: for
                Let's then start with the one who promoted on the Komsomol line
                This was the root of all evil. Komsomol is a school of careerism.
        2. Reklastik
          Reklastik 20 January 2021 11: 26
          +1
          Everyone is strong in hindsight.
      2. Graduate engineer
        Graduate engineer 20 January 2021 13: 55
        -1
        "He spoke honestly and admitted many things that were officially said in a completely different way." Well, yes, well, yes, a genius Jew. And a little later, he picked up and placed cadres who eventually ditched the USSR, using the CIA manuals.
    8. ccsr
      ccsr 19 January 2021 13: 44
      +9
      Quote: nnm
      It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.

      Well, if they pulled information from magazines and listened to the tales of Rezun and other REFUGEES, then naturally they had such an impression about the Soviet Army. In general, the materials smack of those that were presented to Hitler where the USSR was "a colossus with feet of clay", so politicians could believe in this report, but not their professional military.
      On the whole, our assessments of the US Army were deeper and more objective, even at the level of our operational intelligence.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 19 January 2021 21: 55
        +1
        Well, if they pulled information from magazines and listened to Rezun's tales ...

        I will add you "and Volkogonov ..."
      2. Pavel73
        Pavel73 20 January 2021 06: 50
        +6
        A defector is a person who defected for some reason. And often - precisely those negative circumstances that have developed specifically around him. Naturally, he will talk in such a negative way about our entire army. And in this way to form an idea of ​​it in Western intelligence.
      3. mmaxx
        mmaxx 21 January 2021 03: 39
        +1
        Here I am not a deserter. But the opinion is exactly the same. Except for item 1. I guess I myself am the CIA.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 21 January 2021 12: 49
          0
          Quote: mmaxx
          Here I am not a deserter. But the opinion is exactly the same.

          So no one argues that the intellectual abilities of all our citizens are the same and are able to impartially assess situations.
          Quote: mmaxx
          I guess I am the CIA myself.

          It is not excluded - an ordinary agent of influence in the Internet sphere, who decided to earn extra money in some "nongovernmental organization" of the West.
          1. mmaxx
            mmaxx 21 January 2021 13: 43
            0
            Then everyone who served in the barracks of the OL ZabVO (I will talk about what I know) are CIA agents.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 21 January 2021 14: 51
              -1
              Quote: mmaxx
              Then everyone who served in the barracks of OL ZabVO

              Abramovich also served urgently - but for some reason he doesn't cry about his service in the army ...
              1. mmaxx
                mmaxx 21 January 2021 15: 03
                -3
                Hold your tongue. About crying. Everyone on the web is brave. Knowing that you can flutter your tongue with impunity. Men don't do that.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 January 2021 15: 34
                  0
                  Quote: mmaxx
                  Hold your tongue. About crying.

                  Yes, people like you whine how hard it was for them to endure bullying in the army. And I always freed any "grandfather" because of his knowledge of technology from clearing snow on duty, and always appointed young fighters there. And the youth walked to the dining room in formation, because one old servant remained at their posts all this time, and then he himself slowly went to the dining room when everyone returned. But these are the realities of the service, and it’s not for me to listen to your chatter about how hard it was to serve.
                  1. mmaxx
                    mmaxx 21 January 2021 17: 59
                    -1
                    laughing laughing wassat uzbagoiza. I have not even learned to read, not that more serious. Minus.
    9. businessv
      businessv 19 January 2021 14: 15
      +1
      Quote: nnm
      It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.

      Reports based on open data were drawn up by analysts who sought to prove their relevance and the complexity of their work to justify costs, and therefore nonsense is written. The main thing is the complete absence of data on the percentage of incidents or events discussed, which makes the entire report meaningless and does not reflect the true state of affairs. It does not even mention directive D-028 on hazing relations between conscripts! The conclusion is correct: basically - SHOOT! All with the Baptism of Christ! All health and well-being in everything!
    10. qQQQ
      qQQQ 19 January 2021 19: 51
      +8
      Quote: nnm
      disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and non-commissioned officers; - SHOOT!

      Far from nonsense. 86-88, motor-hoofed regiment.
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 21 January 2021 03: 41
        0
        Probably, he served on the program "Serving the Soviet Union"
        1. qQQQ
          qQQQ 21 January 2021 11: 16
          -1
          Quote: mmaxx
          Probably, he served on the program "Serving the Soviet Union"

          Is very similar.
    11. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 19 January 2021 23: 14
      -1
      Quote: nnm
      It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.

      And after all, someone was sitting, composing ... He received a salary for this ... Maybe even a good one. He was considered an "expert" ... Grandpa Zbigniew, he was a complete foe, and he never thought of such insanity ... That "expert" for a month in the Kantemirov or Pskov divisions - I would look at the expression on his face. The collapse of everything, all life guidelines.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 20 January 2021 11: 54
        0
        Quote: Zoldat_A
        Grandpa Zbigniew, he was a complete foe, and he never thought of such insanity ...

        Here, in my opinion, you are mistaken, because the material refers to 1977, as I understand it. According to Brzezinski, the idea to involve us in the war came to them back in 1975 after the triumph of the Helsinki conference, in order to prove that we remained an aggressive country. Naturally, they began to develop various plans, including Afghanistan. As I understand it, sane politicians in the United States were afraid of direct military confrontation with the Soviet Army, and did not want to get involved in a new adventure after Vietnam. In order to prove that the Soviet Army is not so terrible, and will not be able to reach the Indian Ocean through Afghanistan, such materials were prepared specially for them, which showed that our army would not even be able to fight there. Therefore, so many negative assessments were hammered into this document, which was clearly not drawn up on the basis of the materials of the DIA, where professional military analysts worked.
        So do not get hung up on this scribble - retired American generals sometimes give much more balanced assessments of the Soviet army, and it is better to listen to their opinion, and not to the note of the opportunists from the CIA.
        1. Zoldat_A
          Zoldat_A 20 January 2021 14: 52
          0
          Quote: ccsr
          According to Brzezinski, the idea to involve us in the war came to them back in 1975 after the triumph of the Helsinki conference, in order to prove that we remained an aggressive country.

          I have a feeling that when grandfather Zbigniew was born, this was the first conscious thought that came to his mind. Three months after that, he learned to say "mom" ... Throughout his life, he proved it.
          Quote: ccsr
          As far as I understand, sane politicians in the United States were afraid of direct military confrontation with the Soviet Army, and did not want to get involved in a new adventure after Vietnam.

          And now they are not very stupid, even against the backdrop of "victories" in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. Bombing Libya is one thing, contacting Russia - you can get "unacceptable damage" in the event of a retaliatory strike. For some reason, more than 13% (I wonder where this figure comes from and how do they calculate it?) Of the population and infrastructure. I wonder if the "estimated damage" is 12% - is it possible to fight with Russia?
      2. atalef
        atalef 21 January 2021 06: 15
        -1
        Quote: Zoldat_A
        That "expert" for a month in the Kantemirov or Pskov division

        why not in the Kremlin regiment?
        You would still characterize all Soviet trade in a birch or albatross shop.
    12. Mwg
      Mwg 20 January 2021 03: 36
      -5
      The CIA flogged nonsense. Nonsense squealed ...
    13. sleeve
      sleeve 20 January 2021 11: 00
      +2
      It seems to me that you have prepared your "analytical" note quite so decisively. Are you talking about the Soviet Army? And probably the 80s, or even their second half. Times "One hundred days before the order". From the point of view of a psychologist, such a set will definitely be characteristic of any group of people with the same age qualification and structure of life, such as an army (prison, etc.) with low motivation of collectivism. In fact, they described their army before the introduction of the contract, and let's say the APU. There is nothing supernatural about this. An article in favor of the poor. And the whole thing. The answer could be an article on motivational changes in today's army, starting from a year's service life and "specifically combat load" (quote) to personal "innovations" (the army as a social stage). And with numbers, comparisons and comparisons. In order for the Americans to defeat all of the above plus more (for example, mass segregation), they had to create a monster almost beyond the control of the state, and now they have to "drive" it into a tolerant stall. So I think you were in a hurry. The article is not about "bad". Well, as it turned out ...
    14. Asad
      Asad 20 January 2021 17: 21
      -1
      nnm after reading your comment I want to ask, did you serve in the army?
    15. your1970
      your1970 20 January 2021 22: 40
      +4
      Quote: nnm
      - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants; - SHOOT!
      -when the unit duty officer enters the rise and retreats to the barracks - only by sending the cartridge into the chamber, isn't it? NOT disobedience?
      Quote: nnm
      alcoholism; - SHOOT!
      - drug abuse; - SHOOT!
      - at us, the RMO overtook steol from the D-1 howitzers division. We come to the park, and there the howitzers lowered the barrels down ... 100 liters of alcohol came out, clean the devices with optics, probably
      Quote: nnm
      black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power are common among the military as well as in civilian life. - SHOOT!
      - nu-nu ... 2 or 3 tons of green paint were put on the painting of one pontoon bridge - so they married her with gasoline, and exchanged a ton or two from civilians for booze or money. A brass sleeve from D-1 cost 5 rubles from the Turkmen apiece - they sold them to Afghans for 25 ...
      I won't even remember about the construction of summer cottages starting from the company commander and higher
    16. Artunis
      Artunis 21 January 2021 12: 48
      +1
      I served 78-80 and I can say for sure that all their conclusions at that time were a desire to pass off Wishlist as truth. Perhaps only hazing took place, and even then in those parts where the conscript was entrusted with military weapons with ammunition, hazing very quickly stopped by itself and became perhaps quite adequate in the form of respect for those "grandfathers" who fully deserved this in their moral and professional qualities. About politics, this is generally complete nonsense, the political officers firmly knew their job. That’s where you don’t be in the construction battalion, there must have been a mess, but the construction battalion and the army are two big differences - they took all the garbage there or with "low social responsibility" of people. Perhaps only a few cases from the training are remembered, when it became known that it was possible to be sent to Afghanistan, there were several idiots of Baltic nationality who managed to eat shit from the field toilet in the hope of getting sick with dysentery and getting rid of it, I saw it personally. The food was satisfying, although it was not tasty, perhaps, the discipline was tough, no one ran anywhere, there was no alcoholism, so out of bravado, perhaps, flights sometimes happened (because down!), They knew about drug addiction only from political information about "their manners"
      1. tolancop
        tolancop 21 January 2021 15: 37
        0
        Quote: Artunis
        ... About politics, this is generally complete bullshit, the political officers firmly knew their business ...

        It was the political officers who did not know their business, because by the mid-70s they had degenerated into something indecent. But they thought about themselves VERY much and poked their nose into all the cracks.
  2. Asad
    Asad 19 January 2021 12: 13
    +30
    Only your own experience! Hazing was! There were interethnic problems, with the Chechens almost before the shooting, they were fed badly, the officers obeyed, they did not complain about the Soviet regime, there was nowhere to run, the Arctic. Years of service 82 84. In addition, there were no suicides in our unit, in the neighboring guardhouse he shot himself because did not wait!
    1. Asad
      Asad 19 January 2021 12: 30
      +10
      I also remembered! The Belarusians from vacation brought jeans, glasses and other consumer goods and somehow sold them to the locals, Norilsk is a rich city! Well, what to do, there were all sorts of things. I could only bring Pepsi Cola from Novosibirsk.
      1. Asad
        Asad 19 January 2021 12: 56
        +5
        I will add, he was demoted from senior sergeant to sergeant for embarrassment, he sent real leather belts and metal letters SA to the mainland to the mainland, there they were a terrible shortage. Naturally free.
    2. Avior
      Avior 19 January 2021 13: 30
      +9
      And drugs were sent to Central Asia, but it was more like pampering.
      Really seriously hooked only those who served in Afghanistan. Not everything is clear.
    3. tatarin1972
      tatarin1972 19 January 2021 21: 37
      0
      Pechenga or Allakurti?
    4. atalef
      atalef 21 January 2021 06: 17
      -2
      Quote: ASAD
      .Additionally, there were no suicides in our unit, in the neighboring sentry he shot himself because of the bride who did not wait!

      in our third department (department of quantum electronics) - the grandfathers hanged themselves before ... led.
  3. Lionnvrsk
    Lionnvrsk 19 January 2021 12: 13
    -7
    Blah blah blah....
  4. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 19 January 2021 12: 16
    +1
    This analysis is about nothing about the entire SA .. so to blurt out ... Well, what is the conclusion from the author?
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 19 January 2021 15: 57
      -1
      Why is the American burp here?
  5. prior
    prior 19 January 2021 12: 18
    +1
    What an obsessive desire for the CIA to wishful thinking!
    But in fact, this is just an attempt to ascribe the problems of the then American army, the Soviet army.
  6. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 19 January 2021 12: 19
    -2
    Memorandum text removed from open access on CIA website

    Who today is interested in the problems of morality and discipline of the Soviet Army more than forty years ago? request
  7. Crowe
    Crowe 19 January 2021 12: 23
    +26
    I read the CIA's opinion carefully, although the sources are so-so in terms of trust - "defectors were interviewed, rumors were collected"
    I will share my opinion based on my own experience. So, let's go in order:
    - political discontent
    No, it was not. We were proud to serve the Soviet Union.
    - ethnic relations
    In our part, there were not many from Asia, so they behaved normally, understood Russian and did not dress up.
    - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants
    No, it was not.
    - hazing
    Yes, there was, but within reasonable limits - no one shot anyone on guard.
    - alcoholism
    No, it was not. They drank - yes, but they did not drink.
    - drug abuse
    No, it was not, even among Asians.
    - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
    No, it was not.
    Let the Americans look at their army better, they have any of these points "Yes, it was."
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 19 January 2021 13: 31
      +14
      No, it was not. Drank - yes, but not drunk

      What they drank for us is alcoholism for the criminals. :)
      Anasha was, in some places and poppy met.
      National problems were both Asians and Caucasians. I also heard that the Balts were crazy, but we didn't have them.
    2. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 19 January 2021 14: 24
      +22
      Quote: Crowe
      I read the CIA's opinion carefully, although the sources are so-so in terms of trust - "defectors were interviewed, rumors were collected"
      I will share my opinion based on my own experience. So, let's go in order:
      - political discontent
      No, it was not. We were proud to serve the Soviet Union.
      - ethnic relations
      In our part, there were not many from Asia, so they behaved normally, understood Russian and did not dress up.
      - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants
      No, it was not.
      - hazing
      Yes, there was, but within reasonable limits - no one shot anyone on guard.
      - alcoholism
      No, it was not. They drank - yes, but they did not drink.
      - drug abuse
      No, it was not, even among Asians.
      - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
      No, it was not.
      Let the Americans look at their army better, they have any of these points "Yes, it was."


      - political discontent
      No, it was not. We were proud to serve the Soviet Union.
      - ethnic relations
      In our part from Asia, there were also not many, so they led them together and worked together: one day two Uzbeks in the dryer decided to teach me - swept both of them, one of them grabbed an ax and tried to break my head - a block was put in time and a scar on my hand to until now - the case has been hushed up.

      - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants
      it was, the sergeant from the training he did for the grandfathers and stood on the bedside table for the first year,
      - hazing
      it was as much as you want, in our unit it is still divine, where there are more ethnic groups - there are fights for several dozen people. There were no crossbows.
      - alcoholism
      individuals had cologne, BF, glass cleaner. For the first time in the army I tried alcohol, they did not drink.
      - drug abuse
      Anasha among Asians - periodically, hushed up in part.
      - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
      No, it was not.
      - AWOL - periodically, but not to be considered AWOL when the nephew of the commander of honor is only listed in the unit, and lives in the city in an apartment :)) That was laughter when he was recalled at the roll call at the evening morning constructions ...
      There were escapes from the unit, but rarely, usually an officer and a sergeant went home to the fugitive and returned the fornication to the messy "lip".

      The only decent Afghan officer, who was respected by everyone in the company, was squeezed out by the unit commander for his honesty - well, who was pleased to hear that combat training - the horse was not lying around, soldiers build sheds for officers and run around on small errands, supply fraud ...
      Taki kicked out the zhirtrest of the only officer with combat experience who organized the BP in the company and shared his experience. By the way, after his "departure", half of the company wrote a statement with a request to send him to Afghanistan - they wanted to serve, not serve!

      Well, one more officer was remembered - the captain was an organizer along the political line, who, entering the officers' meeting, cut the truth: - Comrades, don't make smart faces, you are Soviet officers!
    3. AUL
      AUL 20 January 2021 07: 03
      +8
      Quote: Crowe
      I will share my opinion based on my own experience.

      I agree with you on almost everything. Differences can be mainly due to time, place of service and type of service. I have - 1971 ... 72 years, near St. Petersburg, air defense. There was a suicide motivated by insanity - he jumped from the 3rd floor. Another, also clearly stupefied, had time to dismiss.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. atalef
      atalef 21 January 2021 06: 21
      -2
      Quote: Crowe
      - alcoholism
      No, it was not. They drank - yes, but they did not drink.

      we had a shot, he had already been called up as a dead drunk, so he and another pretzel in a dress in the dining room drank some kind of crap, this one returned to the company to sleep, and the second lingered well and found him in the morning unconscious all in some foam (vomiting probably so 0 - well, in general, to Evpatoria in intensive care, and this one gets up in the morning - they ask him what the pancake was drinking, the second (I don't remember his name anymore) in intensive care wassat
      What do we hear the answer
      --- WEAK laughing
  8. polpot
    polpot 19 January 2021 12: 27
    +11
    Everything except political discontent took place, quite decent work of analysts with materials from open sources.
  9. Baloo
    Baloo 19 January 2021 12: 27
    +16
    In the army, the same processes took place and are taking place as in society. What is in the family is the core. What did this unfortunate Shamsutdinov want when he killed his freak colleagues? Justice! He did not find it, he restored it himself. What does this liberoid political gopot of the navralny type want? Is he an expert in what, what are his achievements? What useful has he done in his life to consider himself a moral authority and to call for something? As for the report of the Crowds ... remember when the first groups appeared? This is just a puzzle in the destructive work that was carried out against our country. I had a completely sincere desire to join the Communist Party of the Soviet Union until the moment when I did not attend a consultation in the "regional committee" hospital, and then returned to my place. Torn linoleum in three layers, a ward for 10 patients with cockroaches, torn mattresses, torn sheets, there is nothing to operate with, plates and screws for work were ordered through patients in kind or paid for their own. But we must pay tribute, with medicines it was still better. True, in recent years and now it has become the norm.
  10. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 19 January 2021 12: 39
    -5
    Nonsense written in the silence of the office in the CIA, during these years they were most afraid of us. Some motorized infantry regiments in the GSVG were worth what, Composition of immigrants from Central Asia, sergeants from Ukraine. The question of where to shoot did not arise! CIA nonsense !!!
    1. Asad
      Asad 19 January 2021 12: 46
      +3
      By the way, about sergeants from Ukraine, I was always surprised at the desire of the latter to receive the rank of sergeant for demobilization!
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 18: 00
        +2
        The mentality, however.
    2. your1970
      your1970 21 January 2021 10: 13
      +1
      Quote: tralflot1832
      CIA nonsense !!!

      Yes Yes Yes...
      And above and below - a bunch of posts that this is all IT WAS.
      And they stole, and boozed, and hazing, and disobedience to junior officers, and nationalism, and drugs ...
      My father served in the GSVG in the early 60s, saying that there was hazing, they drank on demobilization holidays, that the people stole ...
  11. Runway
    Runway 19 January 2021 12: 40
    +3
    I did not see the author's resume. What the author wanted to "submit" - did not understand.
    These moments took place, but the army is part of society.
  12. Naz
    Naz 19 January 2021 12: 41
    +5
    Yes, everything was. 87-89
  13. Igoresha
    Igoresha 19 January 2021 12: 49
    +3
    good article. Now I would like this from the KGB about the American army.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 19 January 2021 14: 01
      +4
      Quote: Igoresha
      good article. Now I would like this from the KGB about the American army.

      In general, it is very illiterate material, one can feel it was prepared for politicians. This is how the professionals covered the state of the American army thirty years ago:
      1. Reklastik
        Reklastik 20 January 2021 15: 38
        0
        Can I find out the source? And the year the material was released.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 17: 35
          0
          Quote: Reklastik
          Can I find out the source? And the year the material was released.

          Handbook of NATO Armed Forces in Europe. Publication of the WGV headquarters, 1992.
  14. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 19 January 2021 13: 14
    +4
    I observed half of the above. 91-93, Kharkov-Murmansk, Air Defense.
  15. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 19 January 2021 13: 19
    +6
    Before the "anti-alcohol propaganda", there were two pubs in TOVVMU on the territory (in the sense of two shops where beer was sold). There was a checkpoint, but there was no fence around the school, they were built already in 1987-88. After graduation, I almost (only a couple of times a year) did not drink, I handed over alcohol to the nachkhim, he muddied it with tangerine peels and then gave it out "for temporary use", but as a chief executive and KBCH-5 for a couple they went into week-long binges, closed in the cabin and in general they did not serve, but I think that from idleness in Dalzavod. For two months I was on a business trip at the naval PTK, there were mainly officers of the marines - they drank beer once a week (a canister for four per night, in the morning for "three rubles" like cucumbers). On the ships, they preferred strong alcohol-based drinks or vodka, especially sensitive ones drank "Vera Mikhailovna", I liked to puff champagne, because it was always available in large quantities. There was also a young summer with Knevich, just a kid (I was then already a "starley" !!!), only from school, he said that you need to drink little by little, otherwise they will not be allowed to fly - they say you need to have a "red face" , that is, slightly increased pressure. I have not seen drugs in nine years, only once they sent the Yakuts, it seemed to me, some kind of dried bark - they threw it overboard, they did not even ask what it was.
  16. BAI
    BAI 19 January 2021 13: 27
    +7
    Most Soviet young people are reluctant to serve in the army, and any future improvement in the general standard of living will make military service even less attractive.

    This was the main mistake of the USSR - the low prestige of military service. I had to do this - I didn't serve in the army, so you can't hold leading positions in the state administration apparatus (including in the party apparatus). And then a cognitive dissonance arose - he could not defend his Motherland, did not want to, etc., but be in charge. Then there would be a competition for the army.
    1. for
      for 19 January 2021 14: 27
      +6
      Quote: BAI

      This was the main mistake of the USSR - the low prestige of military service

      You probably confused Russia with the USSR.
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 21 January 2021 01: 36
        -1
        Yes, okay ... Not a single person knew who wanted.
      2. your1970
        your1970 21 January 2021 10: 25
        0
        Quote: for
        Quote: BAI

        This was the main mistake of the USSR - the low prestige of military service

        You probably confused Russia with the USSR.

        Never heard of "allies"?? !!!! Th ...
        They were called up and prepared to be sent to Afghanistan - but did not want to serve there ..
        For this, all measures were taken - the main thing is to stay in the Union.
        The most common and simplest was to get sick with jaundice.
        They bought 2 glasses of urine from the sick - a glass by the way cost 25 rubles belay - and drank at intervals of 3 days. To consolidate the result, some drank the third ...
        After that, about 60% of those who used it fell ill ...
        Voila! The sick were not sent to Afghanistan, they were treated on the spot ...
        There were not very many of them, like other self-injurious ones, but there were, especially after 1985 ...
  17. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 19 January 2021 13: 30
    +5
    The perception of things and relationships and their real state of affairs were increasingly torn between fact and image of propaganda. In 1977 it was already in a rather dangerous, but still "subcritical" phase. Since the army is a slice of society, it is not surprising that the report contains essentially emerging problems of the entire multinational Soviet society. It is not possible to assess the scale of the problems by sampling methods, their simple listing does not carry any special value, because in fact it reflects the growing contradictions of the entire USSR, which were easily discovered when communicating with a sample of 10+ respondents.
    Any non-mono-national and extended country will face these problems during a period of economic and political decline (or a period of slower growth, turning into decline).
  18. Timofey Charuta
    Timofey Charuta 19 January 2021 13: 31
    +13
    As for me, the biggest and real problem in CA is DEDOVSHINA. He served himself in 1973-1975. All the hardships and deprivations of military service can be endured, but to wash footcloths, socks to all kinds of idiots, to endure their bullying is the most difficult test. I don't know anything about drugs, sometimes they drank. CONSTANT FEELING - I WANT TO EAT AND SLEEP.

    If one was guilty, the whole platoon was punished. I remember a winter cross in gas masks under the command of a vengeful ensign. Two days before demobilization, just in case, he hid somewhere so that he would not be punished for demobilization.
    To be honest, the intervention of my influential relative saved me from a lot. For example, I caught a cold, fever, but they refused to send me to the medical unit. Prapor diagnosed - "Inflammation of the cunning ...". I got to the phone, complained and everything changed at once. And the rest did not have such an opportunity.

    For 2 years he shot only a few times, but the moronic shagistika regularly. I remember a soldier's proverb on this score: "Around, run, head against the wall!" In short, complete garbage and no "school of life"!

    PS From the stories I know that this was not the case everywhere ... An acquaintance served at the airfield, "He twisted the tails of planes" - garbage, but to a lesser extent.

  19. Avior
    Avior 19 January 2021 13: 35
    +6
    As for political discontent, they turned it down, but about steel everything was quite in one degree or another.
    They were more likely to indulge in drugs, of course, alcoholism - it was more likely that the officers happened, although they hid it as best they could, it is difficult for a 20-year-old boy to become an alcoholic because of his age, and in plain sight all the time, you will quickly catch, and vodka in a teapot, like ours they said they didn't sell, but not everyone had constant access to the city smile
    1. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 17: 50
      0
      With alcoholism - where is how. We drank regularly, one boy managed to catch squirrels after a year of service.
  20. Gardamir
    Gardamir 19 January 2021 13: 38
    -10%
    Judging by the comments, Yeltsin's supporters have gathered here today. I will say this, the one who spits into the past has no future.
    It does not matter what the Americans think, why is their opinion voiced here in Russia.
    1. your1970
      your1970 21 January 2021 11: 02
      +2
      Quote: Gardamir
      Judging by the comments, Yeltsin's supporters have gathered here today. I will say this, the one who spits into the past has no future.

      That is true about service in the SA - this is a spit into the past ??? However belay ...
      Everything that is written except
      "Political discontent" - all was in SA. Here they brought you a carload of examples, do they all lie?

      These are the blockheads from the Central Committee of the CPSU - closing their eyes with their palms - "Everything is fine in our country !!!!!" - they ruined this country (another word) ...
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 21 January 2021 13: 50
      -1
      This is, for example, my personal past. And my business is to spit on him or not. And I believe that where I served, this was all, except for item 1. AWOLs were rare. There is nowhere to go in the Gobi. Desertion was rare but terrible. With weapons and executions of civilians.
      And they drank anything. Before antifreeze with the corresponding consequences. And everything else was complete. 86-88.
  21. Quadro
    Quadro 19 January 2021 13: 39
    +1
    It seems to me that they wrote not about the Soviet army, but about the American army in Vietnam. Here are absolutely all the items they had there.
  22. janeck
    janeck 19 January 2021 13: 48
    +11
    I think on the VO site there are users who are over 55 years old .. and they can tell a lot about where is the truth and where is fiction.
    -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -------------------
    "
    According to CIA analysts, the chronic problems of the Soviet Armed Forces were:

    - political discontent;
    - ethnic relationships;
    - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants;
    -,
    - alcoholism;
    - drug abuse;
    - desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit;
    - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
    - black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military, as well as in civilian life. "
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for me, there were ethnic relations, hazing; desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit; I did not confront other manifestations in SA
    Xia.

    but let's be honest .. it wasn't massive. these were costs of the personal nature of each soldier. someone had character, with self-control, ready for the difficulties of military service. and some do not.
    1. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 17: 54
      +9
      I am over 60, served in the mid-70s in the air defense, in the air defense forces, except for political discontent, almost everything is true. I will say more, despite the constant presence on combat duty, they practically did not engage in combat training, they did not know how to fight
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 19 January 2021 19: 28
      +5
      Quote: Janek
      as for me, there were ethnic relations, hazing; desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit; I did not confront other manifestations in SA
      Xia.

      In the seventies, we did not have ethnic relations in terms of problems, because there was a special selection, and only once we got five Uzbeks with a secondary technical education, no one knows how. So they all quit with the marks of a corporal and a sergeant, and in the security company they even took the posts of checkpoint controllers, which was the dream of any soldier from this company. And a couple of them ended up in technical companies, and you can imagine their status among other construction battalions who were building a technical zone for us, when they suddenly saw their fellow countryman in an aviation uniform, vacuuming some power supply unit from an ES computer in front of the building with a vacuum cleaner. Or when a checkpoint inspector, in clean ironed uniforms, checked the list of a group of zakuchenny construction battalions who had arrived, checking their military IDs and, if they did not match, kicked them out of order - you just had to see it. For them they looked like some kind of military deity, or like conquistadors before the Indians. From the outside, it certainly looked funny, but I told this to the fact that everything depended on the unit where the conscript got to serve.
      We had hazing, but it did not flourish, because there were a lot of officers in the unit, the combat duty and shifts were not particularly disposed to this, although 6 or 7 people were sent to the disbat for it, and some of them out of their own stupidity. There was no desertion in the unit at all, not a single case. AWOL - the fighter secretly ran for moonshine when the perimeter was turned off, but almost immediately he got drunk, for which he was punished, but not much - there was no one on duty. Some drank cologne on duty at night, the drivers brought vodka in the autotube, but they did not arrange drunken fights, they did everything on the sly. We also did not have anything else that the Americans write, but we had a special unit, and this left an imprint on the battalion of soldiers.
      Quote: Janek
      but let's be honest .. it wasn't massive. these were costs of the personal nature of each soldier. someone had character, with self-control, ready for the difficulties of military service. and some do not.

      Quite right - this is exactly the way to approach many incidents in the army, although I believe that its increase in the 70s did not lead to anything good, because the draft contingent went not quite the one that was required for serious equipment. Moreover, generally antisocial elements began to enter the army, including those with a criminal past, and this could not be allowed.
      1. tasha
        20 January 2021 08: 10
        +3
        Quite right - this is how you should approach many incidents in the army
        A very good point. And CIA analysts, we must give them their due, also understood this perfectly and drew very careful conclusions.
  23. nikvic46
    nikvic46 19 January 2021 13: 51
    +9
    The figures that are given here do not go into any framework. For example, 200 border guards tried to trespass in 1965. There were no such cases in our detachment. And where they were, they were isolated cases, and we were told about it. There were cases associated with alcohol, with disinfestation. But in three years it was literally a few. There was no outpost. Every day we dealt with firearms, or even grenades. Probably, they wanted to see our Army like that.
    1. Asad
      Asad 19 January 2021 14: 00
      +4
      Hazing flourished when they began to call upon former criminals.
      1. for
        for 19 January 2021 14: 43
        -1
        Quote: ASAD
        Hazing flourished when they began to call upon former criminals.

        Don't confuse bullying with bullying. The criminals were called to the construction battalion. Hazing was from the time of mammoths and everywhere from the kindergarten and beyond .... For example, we, as elsewhere, had a God-anniversary, but there was no bullying and washing of other people's things. But when the fight against this "evil" began and the mess began.
        1. Asad
          Asad 19 January 2021 15: 48
          +4
          And in the Second World War was hazing, judging by your words?
          1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
            Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 January 2021 23: 50
            +3
            Quote: ASAD
            And in the Second World War was hazing, judging by your words?

            In the war, other, as I understand it, concerns.
            There is an opinion that the clear and logical hazing was just after the Second World War.
            When the units that had passed to peacetime orders went to serve the term, those who yesterday went to attack under the fire of German machine guns, who took city after city, who wore real awards on their chests, went to the military units. So they served their time not quite according to the charter.
            By the way, for example, conscripts born in 1926 - 1927, the so-called last military conscription, generally served in the end for 8 - 10 years.
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 20 January 2021 13: 55
              +3
              There is an opinion that the clear and logical hazing was just after the Second World War.

              My grandfather was drafted into the army in 45, graduated from a sergeant school and came to the army. He had front-line soldiers under his command. Of course, like them, he was in command! He said: "They will send to conduct classes, we will go to the field so that the commander does not see, we will lie on the grass. But if anyone goes, everyone immediately pretends to be smart, they study. They never set me up."
              On the one hand, hazing, and on the other .........
              In general, I agree with you that they served not according to the charter, but they deserved this right.
        2. Avior
          Avior 19 January 2021 18: 30
          +3
          You didn’t have it, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t everywhere.
          Still as it was
          1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
            Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 January 2021 00: 22
            -3
            Quote: Avior
            You didn’t have it, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t everywhere.
            Still as it was

            Those. if he did not have it, it does not mean that it was not everywhere.
            But if you had - does it mean that it was everywhere? ))
            1. Avior
              Avior 20 January 2021 00: 25
              +3
              it is obvious that you did not serve an urgent
              1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 January 2021 00: 26
                -1
                I am a jacket. But how does this relate to the discrimination I noticed by you against another user?
                1. Avior
                  Avior 20 January 2021 00: 32
                  +3
                  I did not see any discrimination either in my post, or messages about it in yours. Where is it in your post?
                  1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                    Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 January 2021 00: 35
                    -1
                    How did you not see?
                    You consider your experience worthy of extrapolation, and the experience of another person unworthy.
                    And such a sincere surprise, as in the case of the khokhlov - "but I am for sho"?
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 20 January 2021 00: 42
                      +3
                      you can't read. I asked, where is it in your post?
                      1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                        Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 January 2021 00: 43
                        -2
                        This is in my post. Can you read?
                        And what about discrimination? Are you not ashamed?
                      2. Avior
                        Avior 20 January 2021 00: 45
                        +2
                        You don't have this in your post.
                        Obviously, this became clear to you, since you started to play around.
                        I see no point in communicating.
                        hi
                      3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                        Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 January 2021 00: 48
                        -2
                        I strictly adhere to the raised issue, unlike you.
                        You discriminated against another user. Brazen and stupid.
                        If you can't read it in my first post, read it here.
                        And let's get down to business. Where did you get the idea that you can afford it?
  24. vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 19 January 2021 19: 28
    +2
    Quote: ASAD
    Hazing flourished when they began to call upon former criminals.

    Hazing flourished when the ideology of the Communist Party degraded. It was replaced by the subculture of the zone, and then the street.
  25. Николаев
    Николаев 20 January 2021 07: 19
    0
    Hazing began to flourish when the officers in their mass became career hucksters and withdrew from their duties.
  • vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 19 January 2021 13: 56
    +17
    Serve in the army from 1978 to 2005. Served as both a soldier and an officer. My answer point by point:
    - political discontent
    did not have
    - ethnic relationships;
    were always among the soldiers. Slavs-Central Asia-Caucasus.
    - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants;
    were among the attempts of soldiers from the national republics always. They were extinguished by various means, including force. Among the officers, rarely and not clearly.
    - hazing;
    was always among the soldiers, to varying degrees
    - alcoholism;
    there were always cases among officers, among soldiers constantly cases of use
    - drug abuse;
    cases were rare, mainly among soldiers and warrant officers
    - desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit;
    were always among the soldiers, among the officers mainly in the 90s
    - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population;
    were always among the soldiers, mainly due to hazing (hazing), rarely among the officers, mainly for family reasons
    - black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military, as well as in civilian life
    were always among the soldiers and officers
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 January 2021 14: 08
      +3
      I fully agree with your assessment
    2. kamakama
      kamakama 19 January 2021 15: 38
      0
      All the same desertion or AWOL? All the same, to run out for a couple of hours to visit a pretty girl or for moonshine and leave with a machine gun in a freight car, having shot the commander - are different concepts. Interested in the edge in the qualification of the act
      1. vladimirvn
        vladimirvn 19 January 2021 15: 44
        +4
        Desertion. They fled both with weapons and without weapons. Without weapons, dozens of soldiers in the 90-2000s were absent from the unit at once. Officers on business trips at their own expense caught them all over the country.
        Some officers did not go to service, appearing only after a certain period of time so as not to fall under the article. The most arrogant left completely, returning only when the order of dismissal came or when the prosecutor's office opened a criminal case.
    3. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 19 January 2021 17: 56
      +1
      I totally agree.
  • kamakama
    kamakama 19 January 2021 14: 14
    +5
    The cut is very peculiar. Without dividing, at least on a territorial basis, the place of service and the type of troops. A drunken meteorologist in Kamchatka - it's easy, what else is there to do then, took readings every 6 hours and is free? Planokura and nasvayschiki within Central Asia - this is how it grows everywhere, it is much easier to find it than alcohol. Hazing is the problem of a specific unit and commander. Where combat readiness is maintained, it is less, where everyone has spit - more. The problem with the national composition - compare the construction battalion, where Asia and the Caucasus served and the elite GSVG, where almost exclusively the titular nations of Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians were sent
    Deserters ... well, that's hard to assess. The meaning is where to run? Home - they will find, without documents you can not last long at all, if only a savage in the forest or abroad, but for this, a unit must be close or have access to a plane or ship. Running in the Arctic is generally harmful to health and life
    Suicide is hard to assess
    1. tasha
      20 January 2021 08: 19
      0
      The problem with the national composition - compare the construction battalion, where Asia and the Caucasus served and the elite GSVG, where almost exclusively the titular nations of Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians were sent

      Stroybat, I am sure, is generally a separate topic and has nothing to do with military service.

      "Georgy Zhukov, when he was Minister of Defense, in his memorandum to the Central Committee of the CPSU in 1956, reported that the presence of military construction detachments (VZO) - no more, no less - contradicts the Constitution of the USSR, because a soldier must serve with arms in hand, This document pointed to the low labor productivity of the construction battalions, the poor material and technical support of the WZO and the useless discipline in these units - indiscriminate unauthorized absences, mass drunkenness and fights, which often had to be stopped with the use of the police. "
      1. kamakama
        kamakama 20 January 2021 08: 53
        +1
        Maybe. These were very specific formations, however, they were under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defense and were recruited by conscription. So it's quite a military unit. From there are still growing Central Asians-repairmen, whom the service gave a profession for a restless life. And what about something that has nothing to do with military service - so they not only built garrison towns, they also dug bunkers on the Chinese border, Baikonur, Plesetsk. Yes, under the guidance of fortification engineers, but still
        1. tasha
          20 January 2021 09: 16
          +2
          A significant part of the WZO was formed by the Ministry of Defense and transferred to civilian ministries and departments ..
          Central Asians-repairmen still grow from there
          Maybe. It is also possible that the origins of interethnic conflicts in the late 80s and early 90s grow from there. What thoughts brought home hundreds of thousands (!) Of recruits from Central Asia, the Caucasus, who were told at school about the sacred duty to defend their homeland - the USSR, and instead were used for two years as a powerless and free (with reservations) labor force ...
          1. kamakama
            kamakama 20 January 2021 10: 26
            0
            And now there is an alternative service - in a nursing home, an orderly in a hospital. Consider that this was an alternative service. Only without the right to choose :)))
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 12: 18
          -1
          Quote: kamakama
          Maybe. These were very specific formations, however, they were under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defense and were recruited by conscription.

          In the Soviet Union, there were about 17 paramilitary structures that were not subordinate to the Ministry of Defense, and where they called up for urgent military service. But the Ministry of Defense had its own UNR and construction battalion regular units, but there were a lot of construction battalions in other ministries and departments.
          Quote: kamakama
          So it's quite a military unit.

          They lived according to the SA charters, but did not obey the leadership of the Ministry of Defense, i.e. were subordinate to other ministers, including the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Glavspetsstroy, Dalspetsstroy, the Ministry of Communications, etc.
          Quote: kamakama
          From there, Central Asians are still growing, repairmen, to whom the service has given a profession for a whole troubled life.

          Quite right - it was the state program for training rural residents of Central Asia and the Caucasus to work at construction sites and enterprises that served the fact that they were sent to the construction battalion most of all, and at the same time they could earn a little money before demobilization, which is important for their further adaptation.
          Quote: kamakama
          And what about something that has nothing to do with military service - so they not only built garrison towns, they also dug bunkers on the Chinese border, Baikonur, Plesetsk.

          Moreover, the calculations showed that if they were replaced with skilled workers at these construction sites, the cost of construction would rise sharply, and it was problematic to find them to work in remote areas. So they used the labor of unskilled construction battalions to reduce construction costs.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • AB
    AB 19 January 2021 14: 49
    +2
    Well, crap. 1976-1978, sergeant training for the first six months. Well, try at least with a glance to express your displeasure with the sergeant, the squad leader. You will quickly find out why the pound is dashing. It is generally better to keep silent about higher-ranked commanders, and not speak out. As a young sergeant, he often wore outfits than old-timers, but then the next replenishment came and they already went more often. The conscripts did not care about politics at all, from the word no-one. Political studies were mainly used to write letters home. The notes could then be rewritten. There was hazing, but without clarifications and massacres. It was necessary, for example, to appoint one, two old-timers and the rest of the young to the outfit. They did not force anyone to hem their collars and scrub their boots, but they always followed the cleanliness of the legs and footcloths of the youth. Well, there was a problem with alcohol in part, due to its complete absence, as well as leave-taking with vacations. So I can go through all the points. In short, crap, not an analyst at the CIA.
    1. tasha
      20 January 2021 08: 06
      +2
      As a young sergeant, he wore outfits more often than old servicemen
      That is, you, the junior commander, were not the commander and the leader of the team, all the more ...
      One of the reasons for the occurrence of bullying is considered to be a change in the status of a sergeant. The conscript sergeants replaced the conscript sergeants.

      In any case, Alexey, thank you for the memories.
      1. AB
        AB 20 January 2021 17: 01
        +2
        That is, you, the junior commander, were not the commander and the leader of the team, all the more ...

        I served in OPULAB. Do you know what a cropped part is? This is when there are 32 soldiers in a company, including 10 sergeants, plus 4 officers. Company commanders from captain to major. I had a major who was rarely seen, the service was dragged by the platoon commanders. I wonder what kind of team leader in such a company a young jr could become. sergeant. Who came for replenishment in the singular? Yes, I dragged the service for six months, but I also became a sergeant after 2 months.
        It so happened that in a separate communications platoon of the battalion, all the sergeants were of the same call and naturally left for demobilization, and the platoon commander did not speak at all. So I, a sergeant who served for 1 year, was put in a platoon lock, with the duties of a platoon commander. Before the army, I worked for two and a half years in the communications department, in one solid organization and had several specialties. I had 12 subordinates, plus company signalmen and artillerymen, who also had to be trained. For six months in a platoon, I raised 4 sergeants, to make my life easier. But here is the platoon commander, Art. lieutenant, was given only two months before demobilization. It's a shame, I failed to be a grandfather in the full sense.
        1. tasha
          20 January 2021 17: 18
          0
          Alexey, thank you again for sharing your memories of the service.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 19 January 2021 14: 53
    -4
    at that time I lived and saw how the country was going to collapse and all this was, to my great regret, and not only in the army and the navy ... the reason, it seems to me, is in the loss of faith, they massively lost faith in God (about 1972) moving from villages into the city and entering a different rhythm of life, at the same time lost faith in communism as the quintessence of the Christian idea of ​​the general welfare of love and justice. They replaced great ideas with petty materialism, love of money and pleasure, sold the birthright for lentil stew and Christ for 30 pieces of silver ... the result is the collapse of the USSR
    1. atalef
      atalef 21 January 2021 06: 47
      -2
      Quote: vladimir1155
      lost faith in God en masse (circa 1972) moving from villages to cities

      and what type of believe?
      Here's how I saw no one with the Bibles and the people did not climb the churches.

      Quote: vladimir1155
      exchanged great ideas for petty materialism, love of money and pleasure, sold the birthright for lentil stew and Christ for 30 pieces of silver ... the result is the collapse of the USSR

      mixed horses - people.
      like the USSR collapsed because it stopped believing in God.
      recourse request
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 21 January 2021 13: 52
      0
      In the 17th year EVERYONE was fucking churched and spiritual. Not to remind what happened next?
      Don't shove your God where you need to and where you don't need to.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 21 January 2021 14: 48
        -1
        “And look at our university youth and, in general, all higher educational institutions! She's almost completely unbeliever. As long as the youth are like that, there can be no complete prosperity in Russia; can she be faithful to the King? No, those who do not believe in God cannot be faithful to the Tsar and the Fatherland. From our unbelief and all our troubles ... Whoever is not faithful to God is not faithful to the Tsar and the Fatherland. Russia is strong only by faith in God, without faith it will not resist. "

        Holy Righteous John of Kronstadt 1905 ........
        The Monk Barsanuphius of Optina said: "The revolution has come out of the seminary." Metropolitan Veniamin (Fedchenkov), a graduate of the Moscow Theological Academy, wrote: "We, seminarians, have a deeply rooted conviction that if someone is smart, he is an unbeliever ..."
        Dostoevsky: "I will discover the enemy of Russia, this is a seminarian."
        The first revolutionary performances of seminarians took place already in 1860 in the Kazan seminary.
        In 1901, riots broke out in 7 seminaries at once, the seminarians chanted the Marseillaise and shouted slogans: Down with the monarchy, long live the republic.
        During the years of the First Russian Revolution, seminarians began to demand the abolition of compulsory participation in Divine services and Communion.
        Since 1906, a wave of assassinations and assassinations has been sweeping across the seminaries, by seminarians, rectors and inspectors.
        And we are still surprised that there was a revolution .......
        the blame is the environment, not the older generation. The youth of those years was characterized by atheism and a disdainful attitude towards the older generation, in which the youth saw retrogrades and "dogs" of autocracy.
        The nobility was Russian only in name, but essentially foreign, even communicating among themselves in French.
        The youth at that time threw away the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Fathers and elevated to the rank of prophets of the nihilists-Proudhon, Stirner, etc.
        The Monk Macarius of Optina wrote: "The heart bleeds about our beloved fatherland, Russia, our mother, the young generation feeds not on the milk of the Church's teaching, but on some foreign, muddy, poisonous, infected spirit, and how long will this last?"
        I agree about Peter, the forerunner of the Bolsheviks, who destroyed everything Russian and loved everything Western. But about Alexei Mikhailovich, I disagree with you, from history it is known that he was a deeply religious person, a prayer book and a fasting man.
        ...

        I have to write with bitterness that the majority of Russians in 1917 abandoned the Orthodox faith and betrayed the Tsar. And no bankers, no fighters against God, no Masons, no Jews, no Bolsheviks, no enemies could have done anything with Russia, if we Russians, for the most part, did not deviate from the Orthodox faith. Prince Nikolai Zhevakhov wrote that the deviation from the Faith took place not after 1917, but before 1917, for if there had been no retreat, there would have been no revolution.

        Only in the light of this is it possible to understand the meaning of the coups of 1917. The coups of 1917, both February and October, are God's permission and punishment for our Russian people. And God allowed the theomachists in Russia to act according to our sins.
        In my opinion, the way out of this situation is currently like this:
        1. Awareness of the need for autocracy for the Russian land.
        2.The realization that the Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1917 betrayed
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 21 January 2021 14: 50
          -1
          the majority of Russian people from the Russian generals and officers to the intelligentsia; from clergy to ordinary people ... (Of course, not all, but, unfortunately, the majority).
          3. Awareness of the martyrdom of the Russian emperor.
          4. Awareness of the need for Orthodoxy for the Russian land.
          5. Morality and loyalty to the family.
          6. Honest performance of the call of duty.
          7. Patriotism and learning from our history.
          27
          May 29, 2020
          Ludmila-Lvovna Ergomysheva
          Ludmila-Lvovna Ergomysheva
          Sergey, I totally agree with you! Only little has changed in the minds of modern people, they do not want any changes, they do not want Orthodoxy, they only agree to be baptized and baptized children. This is where their Orthodoxy ends. And patriotism and morality destroy our television. And of course, the so-called liberals.
          4
          May 29, 2020

          source https://vk.com/wall-34704403_157375
        2. mmaxx
          mmaxx 21 January 2021 15: 01
          +1
          The highest church leaders enthusiastically accepted the abdication of Nicholas II. So who has departed from the faith?
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 21 January 2021 15: 06
            -1
            the highest church officials, as well as the generals and ministers, and the rotten intelligentsia came out and betrayed not only the king, but against the country he headed, against the people he was concerned about, and against the God whom he believed ... they were all Judas traitors
  • iouris
    iouris 19 January 2021 15: 18
    +2
    And what? The Party has long condemned these negative manifestations and defeated the Soviet Army. All the guilty (and the innocent) have been punished long ago. Now what and how? We heard that Private Shamsutdinov solved the problem. In my own way. What is the opinion of the CIA?
  • Growlers
    Growlers 19 January 2021 16: 30
    +9
    The most important problem was impunity ....... It does not matter who the soldier, warrant officer, officer commits a crime, disobedience, in response - educate. And a talking shop, a talking shop ...
    1. agond
      agond 19 January 2021 17: 18
      0
      Quote: AB
      Hazing was

      Was, and then she was gone? and then everything became good?
      If the army was recruited on a voluntary basis,. If the "conscriptions" are canceled, then the attitude in society towards serving in the army and the attitude of the army towards the employees will change.
  • bandabas
    bandabas 19 January 2021 21: 53
    0
    There will always be problems in the men's team. But in the female ... I've seen angry furies. There is no other way to say.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 19 January 2021 22: 12
    0
    Well, how the horses fell into a heap!
    Well, the time period is long!
    In parts of the first line there was hazing. But this is not hazing of the construction battalion! If the young gunner had the concept and skills on the 64k. Then he could be calm for his fate until demobilization. And calmly go home with a diplomat pasted over with blinking beauties.
    For the specialist who shot down 5 of 5 targets had weight!
    Those who served in the FGP understood what I am writing about.
    The further from the borders, the darker it was. And every year to 90m more.
    Unfortunately.
    After the haunted law of the humpback for 1.5 years, the air defense officers had catharsis. Officers almost every day for a belt and for service.
    The former chief of the battery sometimes came to the location. From his appearance, the battalion commander's lip and eyebrow began to twitch. It was rare ooen. Even though everything is according to the charter. 7 people broke their legs while jumping from the 3rd floor. For this wise guy personally paid his money to put a fighter on his lip! At the same time in the chamber for the executioners!
    So it depended heavily on the officers. FGP? Do you know the technique? Do not care Union? The further from the borders with a potential enemy, the worse.
    ZABVO is a parable in tongues. Although tyuratam and mogochi did not differ much in terms of officer prospects!
    A. Remember! How a friend got to Turkwo as a laytenant! Orenburg air defense well, if anyone does not know! The moment the scoop ends! Comes to the division commander. Well, introduce yourself. HE called himself. Three phrases! Orenburg? Yes! Respect! I finished it myself! Will you have vodka? Eyes on the floor of a friend's face! You will!
    He takes out a bottle of cold vodka from the refrigerator and pours 2 glasses from the freezer. And puts a plate of herring out of the cold.
    We drank and the friend reached for the herring. To which the division commander replied the lieutenant. After a glass we don't have a snack, go serve!
  • orcinus
    orcinus 19 January 2021 23: 21
    +4
    Let's be self-critical: the analytics is written with "feet", but they grasp the essence
  • Pushkar
    Pushkar 19 January 2021 23: 50
    +3
    I fully agree with the CIA analysis for at least the 70s and 80s.
  • Jaromir
    Jaromir 20 January 2021 00: 16
    +14
    According to CIA analysts, the chronic problems of the Soviet Armed Forces were

    In my opinion, they did not compose this "analytics" in 1977, but recently.
  • stas-xnumx
    stas-xnumx 20 January 2021 06: 15
    0
    Well, we had hazing, half of the crew were Ukrainians, Kazakhs and Tajiks, Russians once or twice, well, they chased, it happened, but in the end the service rushed, everything was more or less in order, and this was on the nuclear-powered ship ... 91-93
  • certero
    certero 20 January 2021 06: 57
    +2
    Quote: nnm
    It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.

    What is that nonsense? Grandpa's disobedience to the Salabon sergeant? Or the fact that the soldiers fermented when there was an opportunity?
    those who served in Central Asia became absolutely familiar with marijuana, even if they had not tried it before.
    It seems that you were not conscripted in the army.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 20 January 2021 12: 30
      +1
      Quote: certero
      It seems that you were not conscripted in the army.

      I think you are too one-sided in your assessment of all military service in the Soviet Army, because our garrison had three units - one in which I myself served, the second - a regiment of the Moscow Air Defense District and the third - a construction battalion, their detachment was stationed in Bronnitsy, with us constantly most of it worked with its mortar unit and vehicle fleet.
      In general, these are three different worlds, where even the soldiers did not communicate much with each other, because the level of the units was completely different. And if in our unit in my eight years only one soldier's finger was cut off, by his own stupidity, then in the air defense regiment there were several corpses during this time. And the construction battalions in general distinguished themselves - their part even got into the Order of the Ministry of Defense when the driver of this unit drove into the convoy of construction battalions and there were victims. So there is no need to average out all conscripts - I have seen those who legally in civilian life in cars with civilian numbers and with weapons drove around, and even the traffic cops did not have the right to inspect them. Such was the urgent service in different places ...
  • tasha
    20 January 2021 07: 41
    +2
    I think that "political discontent" got into the list of urgent problems under the impression of the revolt at the "Watchdog" in 1975. And, most likely, numerous defectors necessarily declared their opposition to the regime, regardless of the circumstances of the escape. Although yes, there were doubts about the correctness of the political course among the officers, especially after 1968.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 20 January 2021 08: 37
      0
      This is called survivor syndrome. Well, or in this case, communication only with those who did not like the Union, even if they are mentally ill people who see problems where hundreds of thousands lived well.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 20 January 2021 08: 35
    +1
    Where from in the USSR 70s drugs in commercial quantities?
    Polit. dissatisfaction is definitely not among the conscripts.
    Alcoholism in the army is international and inevitable, as is the soldier's ingenuity in the extraction of booze.
    Hazing, so any army is supported by it, and civilian men's collectives.
    1. your1970
      your1970 21 January 2021 11: 42
      0
      Quote: EvilLion
      Where from in the USSR 70s drugs in commercial quantities?

      Do you seriously know that the area of ​​KTurkVO + KSAVO is larger than the area of ​​Europe? Do you seriously know that the local civilian population never considered anasha for a drug? That banal naswai has a mild narcotic effect?
      There were no drugs massively roughly speaking, to the Volga, everything further to Asia - it was quite easy to get any. There would be money ...
      A three-liter enamel can full of heroin was exchanged in the Chuy valley for a Zhiguli = 2 rubles per gram (roughly). Closer to the Volga, prices did not grow exponentially ...
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 21 January 2021 13: 53
      0
      Holy naivety.
  • alstr
    alstr 20 January 2021 09: 18
    +3
    If political discontent is sheer nonsense, then everything else is a direct consequence of the work of the command staff.
    If the commanders were commanders, then there was no hazing, no alcoholism, and everything else.
    If the commanders do not care, then all of the above will be.

    And again there were different parts. In the reserve units and cropped units, everything could be, tk. all garbage was usually written off there. Naturally, there was drunkenness and hazing and all the rest.

    In general, in the Soviet army, an officer could be forgiven a lot, but there were three things that were not forgiven:
    - incidents with the classified part
    - incidents with weapons and ammunition
    - incidents with personnel.

    Any of these options could either close the officer's career or seriously slow it down.
    1. your1970
      your1970 21 January 2021 11: 45
      0
      Quote: alstr
      If political discontent is sheer nonsense,

      Is the Sablinsky mutiny nonsense, deserters in Afghanistan?
      Or was it all the same?
      1. alstr
        alstr 22 January 2021 09: 20
        +1
        And how many people followed Sablin: 1 clearly (this one was imprisoned. And that is most likely just a toady who was looking for a warm place for himself) and 17 more sympathizers were (and these just got off with penalties). And note that these were officers and midshipmen, not sailors. This is from almost 200 crew members. At the same time, part of the team freed the captain on their own.
        And is this political discontent? Do not make me laugh. Here in 91 and 93 - it was discontent.

        As for Afgan, everything is not so simple there. Most of those who remained there are those who were simply trying to survive. Sometimes even shooting their own.
        At the same time, about 300 people remained in Afghanistan after leaving. Even if we consider them all deserters, then count the percentage of 625 thousand that the Afghan passed.

        Therefore, there was NO significant amount of political discontent.

        There was drunkenness (and mainly among the officers) and not everywhere, but by orders of magnitude more than political discontent.
        Moreover, there were even more deserters than politically disaffected.
        1. your1970
          your1970 22 January 2021 12: 08
          +2
          Quote: alstr
          And how many people followed Sablin: 1 clearly (this one was imprisoned. And that is most likely just a toady who was looking for a warm place for himself) and 17 more sympathizers were (and these just got off with penalties). And note that these were officers and midshipmen, not sailors.
          - you come up with domestic points of view..
          The important thing here is that the bulk of the team at least remained neutral.

          Imagine - a similar case during the Second World War. "I say I swam to the Germans" ... Can you imagine the team's reaction ?! He would have been hit on the head with a stool first and handed over to SMERSH.
          And it doesn't matter, out of patriotism or out of a sense of self-preservation.

          And here - "well, seized the ship and what?" (My hut is on the edge, I don't know anything !!) ..

          Moreover, if NOT remained neutral and went on about the officers / warrant officers - persons with a certain status, a fairly high monetary income, the presence of higher or technical education - this is a sign of very big problems in the army and society as a whole.
          Which was confirmed by 1991 -
          lack of mass support of the population, its neutrality. This is many times worse than direct dissatisfaction with the authorities.
          In our district in February 1917, there was -1 (one !!!!!!!!!) person. Came from the province, went to the only gendarme and shot him. Then he arrested all three police officers of the district. He ruled the county alone for a week, after which he organized the Council and then like everywhere else ..
          Neither the Cossacks, nor any other population with a weapon-murderer was arrested.
          Everyone was in Feng Shui - "Well, he killed and what?", We will stand on our side ...
          That is, the power of the king is over ...
          1. alstr
            alstr 22 January 2021 13: 40
            +2
            The team did not remain neutral at all. She was misled by the immediate commanders. And when this delusion was dispelled, it was the team that freed the captain.
            And the crew did not know at all that the ship was going to Sweden - they were told that they were going to Kronstadt.

            And with regard to neutrality, the 80 to 20 rule always applies. Where 80% are always amorphous. And 20% are active.
            The question is precisely the behavior of the active 20%. If their activity leads to destruction, then the system collapses.
  • RealPilot
    RealPilot 20 January 2021 11: 29
    +3
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: nnm
    It seems that they did not know us at all in those years.

    Well, if they pulled information from magazines and listened to the tales of Rezun and other REFUGEES


    And this, by the way, is happening now! what
    Who speaks on behalf of and about Russia in the West, gives interviews? That's right: Khodor, Navalny, Kasparov, Sobchak ... Then a smaller shushara echoes them: Sobol, Yashin, all sorts of Shenderovichi and Kara-Murza ...

    They are afraid of Putin and "stomping his feet" (this is from the Berlin patient N) from "investigations", Khodor is trying to sue 50 billion for Yukos with the support of adversaries ... Sea of ​​examples!
    "The regime will fall, the regime will fall ..." A hackneyed mantra.

    And there they hung their ears, they believe. Opposition noodles are sticky and sweet, they stick to ears no worse than bucks to sweaty palms ... They have symbiosis there wink
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 20 January 2021 14: 05
    +1
    Yes, in principle, apart from political discontent, everything is correct.
  • Sasha from Uralmash
    Sasha from Uralmash 20 January 2021 15: 18
    0
    There were problems, Yes! But the army did not lose a single war! And about drug addicts and necro-pedozoophiles, let them read about the NATO army Fie on them !!
    1. your1970
      your1970 21 January 2021 11: 47
      -4
      Quote: Sasha from Uralmash
      But the army has not lost a single war

      Afghan apparently defeated, didn't they?
      You are more careful with the words - nobody / never / nowhere ...
      1. your1970
        your1970 21 January 2021 17: 02
        -2
        Quote: your1970
        Quote: Sasha from Uralmash
        But the army has not lost a single war

        Afghan apparently defeated, didn't they?
        You are more careful with the words - nobody / never / nowhere ...

        judging by the minuses, apparently we won ... in the heads of individual comrades ...
  • tolancop
    tolancop 20 January 2021 15: 54
    +1
    I read it. Did not like. Something does not grow together. I can’t believe that the CIA has complete ... inadequacies, but the report mentioned prompts such thoughts.
    Use materials from the "Red Star", etc. official publications to analyze negative processes in the army, to put it mildly, is not clever. The credibility of other sources is also questionable.
    The overall assessment of the CA is given. This is something like the average temperature in the hospital. Drug addiction is mentioned. For the mid-70s, there was definitely no problem. Perhaps there were relatively frequent manifestations in regions with traditional drug use, but in general, such a scourge was never heard. For suicides among military personnel, the data are doubtful. If there were such statistics for both the military and civilians, then I am convinced that a very limited circle had access to it. And the suicide rate, I guess, varied a lot depending on the region.
    I served as a conscript not in the worst place and the situation in my unit could have been better and worse than in others, but after reading the above material, I got the impression that the data was sucked out of my finger and the result of the analysis turned out to be appropriate.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 20 January 2021 17: 52
      -1
      Quote: tolancop
      On suicides among military personnel, the data is doubtful. If there were such statistics for both the military and civilians, then I am convinced that a very limited circle had access to it.

      I will not reveal a big secret of that time, but in terms of mortality among different groups of the male population in the age interval of 18-21 years, the indicator for the army was the lowest in the country, because the conscripts were looked after and they were not given freedom of action in various doubtful situations. Moreover, young people had more chances to die or die at this age in civilian life than being in the army - these were closed statistics, and they were quoted somewhere at the level of closed letters of the Central Committee.
      1. tasha
        20 January 2021 19: 11
        +1
        Chief Military Prosecutor of the USSR A.G. Gorny reported in his report that in 1971 1573 suicides and attempted suicides were recorded. Among the suicides were 279 officers and 200 conscripts. In their assessment of the general level, the Americans were mistaken if we consider the size of the army in the early 70s to be about 2.5 million. people - about 0.5 - 0.6 per thousand. But there is no exact data ..

        The absolute number in the USSR in 1970 was 56,1 thousand people. Level - 0.23 per thousand people
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 January 2021 19: 33
          -1
          Quote: tasha
          Chief Military Prosecutor of the USSR A.G. Gorny reported in his report that in 1971 1573 suicides and attempted suicides were recorded.

          Can you give a link? Something confuses me about this figure, especially given that the military prosecutor gives data not for the Ministry of Defense, but for all the armed forces, and moreover, the age of these suicides is not indicated.
          Quote: tasha
          In their assessment of the general level, the Americans were mistaken if we consider the size of the army in the early 70s to be about 2.5 million. people - about 0.5 - 0.6 per thousand. But there is no exact data ..
          The absolute number in the USSR in 1970 was 56,1 thousand people. Level - 0.23 per thousand people

          You miscalculated, because in the civilian world it turned out 2,3 per thousand, and in the army 0,5 -0,6 per thousand.
          1. tasha
            20 January 2021 19: 42
            0
            Here: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2160969
            "in the civilian world it was 2,3 per thousand."
            I took the data for the USSR from this article:
            https://www.narcom.ru/ideas/socio/28.html#3)
            It indicates a level of 23 per 100 thousand people - 0,23 per thousand.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 20 January 2021 19: 58
              -1
              Quote: tasha
              I took the data for the USSR from this article:

              You spoke about the military prosecutor - there is none of that. The first link is generally broken, you cannot find out anything there. But you yourself can take a calculator and divide 56 thousand by 270 million - then you will find out how many suicides were there per thousand people.
              1. tasha
                20 January 2021 20: 03
                0
                Is it really broken? Try again.

                For example, in the report of the chief military prosecutor A.G. Gorny to the country's leadership "On the state of legality in the Armed Forces of the USSR and the work of the military prosecutor's office in 1971" it was said: ... As a result, the chief military prosecutor noted:
                "The Armed Forces of the USSR registered 1573 suicides and attempted suicides (+ 13,1%), a significant increase in them occurred among young soldiers and sailors (+ 43%). Among the suicides were 279 officers and 200 military servicemen. Every fourth suicide occurred in view of a painful condition (mostly mental), every third - due to family troubles. There are facts of insensitive, sometimes rude attitude of the bosses to their subordinates. "

                Here you puzzled me .. The population is 241 million people. (from wiki I take)
                241 million = 241 thousand people
                56 / 000 = 241 per 000 people. Where am I wrong?
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 20 January 2021 20: 15
                  -1
                  Quote: tasha
                  “The Armed Forces of the USSR registered 1573 suicides and attempted suicides (+ 13,1%), a significant increase occurred among young soldiers and sailors (+ 43%). Among the suicides were 279 officers and 200 servicemen.

                  You probably did not understand that the internal troops, and the troops belonging to the KGB, and those that were in other departments where conscripts served, belonged to the armed forces of the USSR. And he does not indicate how many real suicides were out of these 1573 cases, because under the "attempt" is sometimes a simple desire to get rid of the army. Our officer specially simulated suicide in order to quit, and achieved his goal. Then he worked normally in civilian life, since he was a builder by education, but he probably got into such statistics.

                  Quote: tasha
                  Here you puzzled me .. The population is 241 million people. (from wiki I take)
                  241 million = 241 thousand people
                  56 / 000 = 241 per 000 people. Where am I wrong?

                  You make a mistake, because you take 56 with three zeros, but you have to take 56 and divide by 241000 - then you will get the desired result.
                  1. tasha
                    20 January 2021 20: 38
                    0
                    And he does not indicate how many real suicides were out of these 1573 cases

                    Yes, it doesn't. Therefore, there will be no exact figures. By the way, can you share information about the strength of the USSR Armed Forces in 1970?

                    You make a mistake, because you take 56 with three zeros, but you have to take 56 and divide by 241000 - then you will get the desired result.

                    Are you sure of this?
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 21 January 2021 12: 44
                      0
                      Quote: tasha
                      Yes, it does not. Therefore, there will be no exact figures.

                      As for suicides, there may be more or less correct numbers, because this was always reported, and sometimes even the crime was concealed, disguising it as suicide.
                      But I can say for sure that these incidents, like any death in the army, did not try to hide - they still reported upstairs, even through the special departments.

                      Quote: tasha
                      By the way, can you share information about the strength of the USSR Armed Forces in 1970?

                      At a later time, according to the former Minister of Defense of the USSR, about 4 million servicemen were under his command. Other numbers come across, but in my opinion this is accurate.
                      Quote: tasha
                      Are you sure of this?

                      I am only sure that when you cited Gorny's figures at the beginning, you misinterpreted them, stating that suicides in the Armed Forces were at the level of 0,5-0,6 per thousand and comparing them with suicides in civilian life. Firstly, the prosecutor did not indicate exactly how many suicides were committed, and secondly, the figure of 2,5 million who served in the army is clearly underestimated, because in 1974, it significantly exceeded 3,9 million, not counting servicemen in other structures of the USSR Armed Forces. Well, and most importantly, the cunning of your numbers lies in the fact that you take the entire population of the country, even babies, schoolchildren, women and infirm pensioners when calculating the average suicide cases, and in the army you snatch only the most active part of the country's male residents in a certain age group, and this is an incorrect sample.
                      So your numbers do not say anything, but only indicate the wrong study of this topic. By the way, statistics are usually used in statistics for 10 or 100 thousand people, and not for a thousand.
                      1. tasha
                        21 January 2021 13: 46
                        0
                        Thank you for the detailed comment.
                        I agree that American analysts and I, together with them, misjudged the suicide rate in the USSR Armed Forces and compared it with the same indicator for the entire population of the USSR. But the problem did not disappear from this anyway ...
                        You make a mistake, because you take 56 with three zeros, but you have to take 56 and divide by 241000 - then you will get the desired result.
                        This is where you are definitely wrong.
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 21 January 2021 15: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: tasha
                        But the problem still did not disappear from this ...

                        This is a problem for any army in the world, not just the Soviet one.
                        Quote: tasha
                        This is where you are definitely wrong.

                        No, I was not mistaken, but you, because for mathematical calculations, if you go to some common unit, you cannot take one number with an accuracy of a person (56000), and another in thousands of people (241000). For the calculations to be correct, it was necessary to divide 56000 by 241000000, and only then proceed to further manipulations with thousands or tens of thousands, respectively multiplying the result. But the point is not that, using the statistics of Gorny, you are trying to prove that there were more suicides in the army than in civilian life, but that for this you take unequal categories of groups of people, which means that all your comparative statistics are from the bulldozer and are not trustworthy ...
                      3. tasha
                        21 January 2021 15: 09
                        0
                        This is a problem for any army in the world, not just the Soviet one.

                        Support.
                        You miscalculated, because in the civilian world it turned out 2,3 per thousand, and in the army 0,5 -0,6 per thousand.
                        Are you sure now?
                        There is one car. There are 10 thousand people. How many cars are there in one thousand?
                        all your comparative statistics from the bulldozer and not trustworthy.
                        I quote myself: “I agree that American analysts and I, together with them, misjudged the suicide rate in the USSR Armed Forces and compared it with the same indicator for the entire population of the USSR.” You began to amaze me.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 22 January 2021 19: 39
          0
          Quote: tasha
          Here: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2160969

          I checked and did not find the primary source - Report of the Chief Military Prosecutor A. G. Gorny to the country's leadership "On the state of legality in the USSR Armed Forces and the work of the military prosecutor's office in 1971."
          There is only a link to the author of "Kommersant", and this, as you yourself understand, is not a very reliable source. Can you tell me, you yourself saw this document somewhere to make sure how reliable the numbers in the text of the article are?
          1. tasha
            23 January 2021 10: 48
            0
            Can you tell me, you yourself saw this document somewhere to make sure how reliable the numbers in the text of the article are?
            Unfortunately, I could not find the text of the report.
            The figure came across 21 cases per 100 thousand in 1984-1985.
            Here is a link to the article: https://vpk-news.ru/articles/154
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 23 January 2021 12: 27
              0
              Quote: tasha
              Unfortunately, I could not find the text of the report.

              Do you not admit that it was a fake, cooked up to order? Even Volkogonov did not disdain to distort documents of past years, but here some incomprehensible journalist was admitted at least to classified material.
              1. tasha
                23 January 2021 12: 32
                0
                I admit it. We read, compare, think ...
          2. tasha
            23 January 2021 12: 18
            0
            Have you come across the Report of the Special Commission to verify the objectivity and completeness of the investigation into the causes of deaths and injuries of servicemen and military builders in peacetime? This commission was established in November 1990.
            The network contains only incomplete parts.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 23 January 2021 12: 37
              0
              Quote: tasha
              Have you come across the Report of the Special Commission to verify the objectivity and completeness of the investigation into the causes of deaths and injuries of servicemen and military builders in peacetime?

              The annual order of the Ministry of Defense on mortality and injuries in our army was enough for me, so I did not bother with what was being done in other structures - we were not told this.
              1. tasha
                23 January 2021 12: 42
                0
                From this report, you can learn that non-combat losses in the period 81-90 ranged from 7000 to 9000 + - people per year. Are they lying?
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 23 January 2021 13: 09
                  0
                  Quote: tasha
                  Are they lying?

                  They lie, and several times. That is why I doubted the figures allegedly given by the prosecutor. On average, about 2 thousand people died in the Ministry of Defense annually, which, with 4 million army in percentage terms, was less than in civilian life.
                  1. tasha
                    23 January 2021 14: 35
                    0
                    Your figure, unfortunately, is also in doubt ...
                  2. tasha
                    23 January 2021 17: 15
                    0
                    We can even calculate approximately. What do you think is the share of suicides among non-combat casualties? About?
                  3. ccsr
                    ccsr 23 January 2021 17: 25
                    0
                    Quote: tasha
                    Your figure, unfortunately, is also in doubt ...

                    For you - yes, but for those who served at that time, it does not call, because it was an order of the Ministry of Defense.
                    Quote: tasha
                    We can even calculate approximately.

                    You will never calculate, because suicides can hide crimes, as well as gross violations of safety. Those hookers who cling to electric trains, or want to ride on the roof of a subway car, are they suicidal or not?
                    Quote: tasha
                    What do you think is the share of suicides among non-combat casualties? About?

                    I don’t know, because during my service there were losses among my colleagues, even in everyday situations, but there were no suicides.
                  4. tasha
                    23 January 2021 18: 21
                    0
                    Don't know ... Or don't you want to?
                    The suicide rate in 1985-1989 was approximately 20-21 cases per 100 thousand people (1989 - 23.8). That's about 800-900 people a year (minimum!). The proportion of suicides among non-combat casualties is approximately 18-20%. So it turns out that in the period 1985-1989. the total non-combat losses of the USSR Armed Forces can be estimated at 4500-5000 people per year.
                  5. ccsr
                    ccsr 23 January 2021 18: 28
                    0
                    Quote: tasha
                    Don't know ... Or don't you want to?
                    The suicide rate in 1985-1989 was approximately 20-21 cases per 100 thousand people (1989 - 23.8). That's about 800-900 people a year. The proportion of suicides among non-combat casualties is approximately 18-20%. So it turns out that in the period 1985-1989. the total non-combat losses of the USSR Armed Forces can be estimated at 4500-5000 people per year.

                    I know that you will never confirm these figures with documentary sources, and therefore I think that everything that suits your point of view can be manipulated to please your views. What kind of suicide are you talking about - in the army, in society? If our soldier committed suicide in Afghanistan, how do you think his commanders will attribute this to combat or non-combat losses?
                  6. tasha
                    23 January 2021 18: 34
                    0
                    You have taken a very good position. Convenient .. "Where's the proofs, Billy?" Or - not caught, not a thief. And ask yourself a question - why, after 30 years, when there is no longer a USSR country, the data on crime and mortality in the army of this country remain a secret?

                    "Among the most successful research projects implemented during the period of the Center's activity, the study" Prevention of suicidal incidents in the army and the navy. "The analysis showed an increase in the number of suicides among military personnel: from 19,6 to 23,8 suicides per 100 thousand servicemen in 1985-89 The materials received were used in the preparation of the directive of the USSR Minister of Defense, job descriptions, methodological manuals and other guidance documents. As a result, the situation was significantly changed - in 1991 this figure was 20,1. the fact that throughout the country as a whole, the tendency for an increase in the number of suicides continued: in 1991, their number per 100 thousand people reached 30 (over 80 thousand suicides per year). "

                    Who do you think writes? And writes - OBRAZTSOV Igor Vladimirovich - Doctor of Sociological Sciences, Associate Professor of the Department of the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Colonel.
                  7. ccsr
                    ccsr 23 January 2021 19: 08
                    0
                    Quote: tasha
                    You have taken a very good position.

                    This is not my first year on the forums and I know very well the public who writes various articles on them. That is why I always want to know the source of information, where the author gets the numbers from. With the prosecutor, the above is a bummer - it turns out that no one except the journalist has seen his report. Whom to believe?
                    Quote: tasha
                    And writes - OBRAZTSOV Igor Vladimirovich - Doctor of Sociological Sciences, Associate Professor of the Department of the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Colonel.

                    At Volkogonov's command, our entire military history was redrawn after the collapse of the USSR, and you only give me the opinion of one colonel as an argument. I understand that if it were the author's work of a team of the highest ranks of the Ministry of Defense, which would be sent out to the troops by directives, and you would refer to it, then I would believe you. And so excuse me, the private opinion of an associate professor of some department of the General Staff Academy cannot be an official document of the Ministry of Defense. Moreover, I am alarmed by the year 1991 - I now understand where the legs grow from. By the way, you cited figures from the report of the prosecutor and the assistant professor on suicides in the army do not coincide several times - how do you explain all this, considering that it concerned the Soviet Army?
                  8. tasha
                    23 January 2021 19: 24
                    0
                    You can only trust daddy Mueller ... winked
                    We can only think, compare and analyze. And draw conclusions. Cautious, of course ... To declare that this cannot be, because I think so and that's all - this is the position of the turtle ...
                    By the way, you cited figures from the report of the prosecutor and the assistant professor on suicides in the army do not coincide several times - how do you explain all this, considering that it concerned the Soviet Army?
                    Here I already begin to think. The prosecutor's report is 1971, and the "assistant professor's information" is from the 80s ... Well, Yoshkin cat ..
                  9. ccsr
                    ccsr 24 January 2021 11: 36
                    -1
                    Quote: tasha
                    Here I already begin to think. The prosecutor's report is 1971, and the "assistant professor's information" is from the 80s ... Well, Yoshkin cat ..

                    Yes, in 1971 the army was much more disciplined than in the late 80s - those who served in it at that time will definitely confirm this.
                    Suspicions are also caused by the fact that associate professors in educational institutions do not have a good command of the information that is available in the troops, and not everyone is allowed to it in order to prevent leaks and arbitrary interpretation.
                    In general, your business, but I still do not understand where the legs of the "journalist" and the "docent" grow from, because there are no links to a single real document that can be seen on the net now, i.e. it is impossible even to verify their information.
                  10. tasha
                    24 January 2021 12: 53
                    0
                    I understand your position. Yes, on the modern Internet you can find information on any occasion and even mutually exclusive ones.

                    http://ecsocman.hse.ru/data/348/829/1231/005.OBRAZTSOV.pdf
          3. tasha
            23 January 2021 18: 50
            0
            Dear interlocutor. Well, you yourself write: "In general, these are three different worlds, where even the soldiers did not communicate much with each other, because the level of the units was completely different. And if in our unit in my eight years only one soldier cut off a finger, the same nonsense, there were several corpses in the air defense regiment during this time. "
            So what are you, that these anti-aircraft gunners, that construction battalions - served in the same army. And if you are lucky not to face the problems that are listed in the material, this does not mean that they were not ...
            A friend of mine served in 1992-1994. And you know what? For these two years he lived in the unit commander's apartment behind the castle. Some are outside the city, the apartment is in the city. Time, you know, is vague .. So it was guarding. Two years ... Hazing - 0! Addictions - 0! Alcoholism - 0! Suicides - 0! laughing
          4. ccsr
            ccsr 23 January 2021 19: 12
            0
            Quote: tasha
            So what are you, that these anti-aircraft gunners, that construction battalions - served in the same army. And if you are lucky not to face the problems that are listed in the material, this does not mean that they were not ...

            That is why it is not necessary to attribute the problem of individual units to our entire army, which analysts from the CIA have successfully done.
            Quote: tasha
            A friend of mine served in 1992-1994. And you know what? For these two years he lived in the unit commander's apartment behind the castle. Some are outside the city, the apartment is in the city. Time, you know, is vague .. So it was guarding. Two years ... Hazing - 0! Addictions - 0! Alcoholism - 0! Suicides - 0!

            Is that what he told you? Or maybe his dad, in order to see the child or to protect him from his service, specially bribed the commander so that he would keep him close to home? And now he has woven you from three boxes ...
          5. tasha
            23 January 2021 19: 17
            0
            Is that what he told you?
            I say - very convenient.
            Yes, he told me that.
  • mister-red
    mister-red 23 January 2021 20: 13
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: tolancop
    On suicides among military personnel, the data is doubtful. If there were such statistics for both the military and civilians, then I am convinced that a very limited circle had access to it.

    I will not reveal a big secret of that time, but in terms of mortality among different groups of the male population in the age interval of 18-21 years, the indicator for the army was the lowest in the country, because the conscripts were looked after and they were not given freedom of action in various doubtful situations. Moreover, young people had more chances to die or die at this age in civilian life than being in the army - these were closed statistics, and they were quoted somewhere at the level of closed letters of the Central Committee.

    For 2 years of service, there were 2 deaths: an officer crashed by parachute and one of the conscripts died of a heart attack while running either 6 or 10 km. And one serious injury - during the exercises, the APC got stuck when leaving the large landing craft, pulled with a cable, it broke and the guy's legs were crippled.
    Even before us, there was an incident about which everyone was told and shown a bullet hole in the ceiling. While cleaning the weapon, one of the sailors pointed the machine gun at the other and pulled the trigger. There was a shot, a bullet pierced him right through and hit the ceiling. The guy was conscious for a couple of minutes and died there. I don’t remember who fired directly into the dispatch battalion.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 24 January 2021 11: 53
      -1
      Quote: mister-red
      Even before us, there was an incident about which everyone was told and shown a bullet hole in the ceiling. While cleaning the weapon, one of the sailors pointed the machine gun at the other and pulled the trigger. There was a shot, a bullet pierced him right through and hit the ceiling.

      There were a lot of such cases of deaths of servicemen due to careless handling of weapons, and they were always investigated. Especially on guard, which was constantly reported by the orders of the Minister of Defense.
      I still found a time when there were not everywhere walls near guard rooms in places for unloading weapons. Then they were introduced without fail, then forced to sheathe it with wood so that there were no ricochets, in a word, there was a problem and they tried to fight it. And nevertheless, this has not been completely outlived.
      By the way, Korotich's "Spark" in the eighties inflated the story of the death of one soldier in Czechoslovakia, which just happened according to a similar scenario - foolishly he sent a machine gun at a colleague that was not properly discharged, and the man died. And in the article what was not attributed to this, and all for the sake of anti-army propaganda.
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 20 January 2021 17: 00
    +1
    Didn't read the article to the end - Nonsense from the CIA, well, they were looking for a weak link, this is their job. Only from my service in the GSVG I took out one thing - everything depends on the commander (in my case, on the battery commander). His battery worked like a Swiss watch! I knew what I was doing, and the first thing was crushing personality... Due to his youth, he did not understand with his youthful maximalism. Therefore, to such as I, "educated", He was especially strict. Now he lived and realized that the battalion commander did not need 40 personalities. He needed 40 soldier ants to perform their tasks automatically and accurately. He could not go into battle through a general meeting with a vote. Thanks to Him for the science!
  • mister-red
    mister-red 20 January 2021 17: 10
    +1
    Served in 1982-1984 in the brigade of the Black Sea Fleet. I will comment on the basis of personal experience.
    To make it clear in the brigade in peacetime, about 1,5 thousand personnel
    - political discontent; did not observe
    - ethnic relationships; in part, it was usually due to Caucasians. We had few of them.
    - disobedience of conscripts to junior officers and sergeants; very rare
    - hazing; Yes
    - alcoholism; rarity. Don't go AWOL, it's extremely rare to be fired
    - drug abuse; never heard. And from where. This is faster than in the Central Asian republics or in Afghanistan.
    - desertion and unauthorized abandonment of the unit; in 2 years not a single case
    - suicides, the number of which is higher than among the civilian population; not a single case
    - black markets, corruption, theft and abuse of power, common among the military, as well as in civilian life.
    Well, yes, they did not give one cotton (it was supposed to be 3 units in 2 years) and one pair of boots (it was supposed to be 2 pairs in 2 years), the fastest way, according to the documents, I received everything. Prapora was mainly engaged.
    And of course you could buy both uniforms and samogi.
    I won't say anything about corruption, it's faster to the officers.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 21 January 2021 03: 52
      +1
      CA norms - cotton 2 pcs. For every summer period. That is, the service life is six months.
      P / w - 2 years
      Boots - 8 months
      Overcoat - 2 years
      Wadded jacket - 2 years
      1. mister-red
        mister-red 23 January 2021 19: 49
        0
        CA norms - cotton 2 pcs. For every summer period. That is, the service life is six months.
        P / w - 2 years
        Boots - 8 months
        Overcoat - 2 years
        Wadded jacket - 2 years

        In the Marine Corps, the norm of hb was 3 pieces for 2 years, 1 pair of boots for 1 year (we had cowhide, strong enough), the jacket was called "MP jacket", like better than in the troops, but in fact not. I did not receive a new one for 2 years, it seems that it was calculated for 3-4 years.
        PS - I don’t know the term, don’t give us a new uniform for service, the old one was quite suitable. It was worn only on guard duty and on holidays.
        And we also had a naval uniform, they were given for 2 years, in which they went for demobilization. There were also pea jackets, also for 2 years, they also gave autumn workers for demobilization.
        Overcoat - 2 years old, worn little - on the buildings, guards, outfits. It was possible that they were allowed to be demobilized in greatcoats, but no one left, it was considered shameful.
  • certero
    certero 20 January 2021 18: 51
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    So there is no need to average all conscripts - I

    So I just don't average. I just wrote that such problems really existed in the Soviet army.
  • Motorhead
    Motorhead 20 January 2021 19: 58
    0
    Mlyn reading a super secret report of mattress toppers, rzhunemagu, amid problems in the us army
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 21 January 2021 05: 32
    +1
    The CIA report is not that bad ... although in the long run, a lot turned out to be true. My experience in the SA confirms this. He served in Sistema, OSNAZ GRU ..., honestly 2 years in boots, about 120 guards, shifts 6 through 6 on operational duty, radio interception, part of it was disbanded after perestroika, we were the last full Slavic call, then the local Balts, 88 g, part very very statutory, but everything that the author describes was, the political officer was very attentive to politics, the more the specificity of the service was such that the majority were university students and graduates of technical schools - this is a technical battalion - conscripts, a management group - translators and electronics engineers, even ensigns with teaching diplomas. Nat. there were problems, the Caucasus and Asia - the east is a delicate matter .., AWOL - in moderation, - Labusyandia, according to rumors from the forest brothers, paid off until the mid 60s ..., many American assumptions were justified in the late 80s, early 90s and the political officer hinted at the really razgandirovannye units before the introduction of troops into Czechoslovakia in 68g. - there is no smoke without fire.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 21 January 2021 13: 35
      -1
      Quote: Iskazi
      Nat. there were problems, the Caucasus and Asia - the east is a delicate matter ..,

      Where did they come from in the "circular" system and even in the Baltics? Well, I didn’t see people from these regions in Klimovsk, so I don’t strongly believe that they could serve you somewhere other than cooks, especially since you had a special selection. Everything else you describe correctly about this system, these were really elite units of central subordination with very high responsibility of all who served there. Well, little things like the flights of some fighters, so it happened everywhere, and no one denies. As for the CIA report, your assessment is not correct - this is a purely politicized report, more serious documents could have been created in your system.
      1. tasha
        21 January 2021 14: 36
        0
        this is a purely politicized report
        Not a report, rather a background document. CIA analysts tried to isolate the main chronic problems based on the available data and, as far as I can tell, did so. For example, possible problems inherent in other armies - a general decline in intellectual level, homosexuality, religious discord, mental illness, or a large number of physically disabled soldiers were not included in the list.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 21 January 2021 15: 08
          -1
          Quote: tasha
          CIA analysts tried to isolate the main chronic problems based on the available data and, as far as I can tell, did so.

          Data can be manipulated in the interests of the customer. Regarding this report, the author answered you better than me just below:
          Quote: vavilon
          Political not contentment is of course nonsense, just like drugs
          and desertions
          And the unauthorized abandonment of a part, if it happened, they were motivated out of personal interests, there was such a case of a soldier leaving a part and went home for a wedding to his beloved who was married to another
          Alcoholism - delirium
          Corruption is nonsense but stealing
          in some places

          Quote: tasha
          For example, possible problems inherent in other armies

          This report was about the Soviet army, so there is no need to speculate for its creators.
          1. tasha
            21 January 2021 15: 21
            0
            This report was about the Soviet army, so there is no need to speculate for its creators.
            Calmer, calmer. Please take your time. Try to read my comment again ...
            Regarding this report, the author answered you better than me just below:
            I disagree. Above there are opposite opinions of other readers. And the reader vavilon, alas, did not even indicate the time of service. And you put it nonsense as an example? With your reasonable comments?

            While preparing the article, I came across information that according to the intelligence agencies of the GDR in the 80s, 450-500 people deserted from the GSVG annually. And they fled not to the West, but home, to the USSR.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 21 January 2021 16: 08
              -1
              Quote: tasha
              While preparing the article, I came across information that according to the intelligence agencies of the GDR in the 80s, 450-500 people deserted from the GSVG annually.

              In fact, all cases of desertion were investigated, so that in the orders of the Ministry of Defense and the Commander-in-Chief, the exact number of all incidents in the troops was constantly communicated to all officers. Concerning
              intelligence agencies of the GDR
              , then someone told you this, because when a soldier escaped, especially with a weapon, we had to inform the local authorities so that they could quickly report all suspicious ones, with the aim of arresting them. And the German police helped us with this. As for the desertion in the 80s, I don’t remember the exact figure, but during the entire period of the withdrawal of troops (1990-1994), about 1000 people fled to the West, including civilians. About 400 then returned back. So 450-500 people annually is a big stretch - I don't believe in this figure.
              1. tasha
                21 January 2021 17: 10
                0
                I agree with you, the figure is very ... Doubtful. Although the source is a book by German authors.
                That is why the memories of people who really served in the 70s are very important. Unfortunately, these people are getting smaller and smaller. Just to compare and draw your own conclusions ...
      2. Iskazi
        Iskazi 22 January 2021 04: 14
        0
        and nevertheless, I do not give an assessment of what happened, and I am talking about that, because in those years there was an abundance of chaos, and there was no circle, there was a star.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 22 January 2021 12: 00
          -1
          Quote: Iskazi
          and there was no circle, there was a star.

          Even more so with Pozharsky that some immigrants from Central Asia serve - I do not believe.
      3. mister-red
        mister-red 23 January 2021 20: 01
        0
        Where did they come from in the "circular" system and even in the Baltics?

        I saw once in near Leningrad about a platoon of construction battalions from Asians, I don't even know who they were, the fastest of all are Tajiks or Turkmens. Believe it or not, the eldest of the conscripts (probably the deputy foreman or the platoon commander) gave commands in their language :) I didn’t believe it, I followed them - for sure, I didn’t give all the commands “stop, step march, combatant” in Russian. I went nuts. It was 1983. Probably not everyone knew Russian well. There were not a single Slavs among them.
    2. mister-red
      mister-red 23 January 2021 19: 54
      0
      shifts 6 through 6 on duty

      We had this in the exercises. Honestly, it is very difficult, especially if two weeks or more in a row.
      1. Iskazi
        Iskazi 24 January 2021 00: 16
        0
        for months ..., on guard like a holiday, and between shifts, combat training ..., sports mass time, digging ditches, exercises, too, has not been canceled ... but there was a rhythm and there was a feeling of SERVICE, not the worst time - looking back, and Even the nightly mopping of the floors in the control room in the "clergy" is not the worst thing that could have been, and the threat to transfer to the zheldorbat worked flawlessly, the Ventspils tank regiment was famous for its "lip" ...
  • vavilon
    vavilon 21 January 2021 11: 20
    +1
    Political not contentment is of course nonsense, just like drugs
    and desertions
    And the unauthorized abandonment of a part, if it happened, they were motivated out of personal interests, there was such a case of a soldier leaving a part and went home for a wedding to his beloved who was married to another
    Alcoholism - delirium
    Corruption is nonsense but stealing
    in some places it took place especially as warrant officers, who were usually appointed chiefs of warehouses, but this was not everywhere and was not massive.
    Suicides for my service did not happen, and I did not hear that such a case took place, but if there were, then these are very rare cases and they were mainly motivated by personal problems, but not by army everyday life