Military Review

Aesop's Language of Loss: the Pan-European Empire VS Russia

170
Aesop's Language of Loss: the Pan-European Empire VS Russia

Many articles and books have been written on the topic of losses in the Great Patriotic War. But it is important first of all to understand: what is reality in them and what is not.


Therefore, I propose to once again carefully analyze and compare various scientific and publicistic sources, as well as statistical data on this topic. We have prepared a series of articles about this. And today we are publishing the first part, which will be devoted to the situation on the eve of the invasion of the USSR, when the united Europe was seriously imbued with the ideology of the destruction of all subhumans from the Slavs.

First, let's define a specific time period that we will analyze. We are interested in the Great Patriotic War.

Therefore, I propose to restrict ourselves to the following framework: June 22, 1941 until the end of hostilities in Europe.

In the losses of the USSR, let us include the deaths of the Red Army soldiers and civilian Soviet citizens in this time interval.

The losses of Germany will consist of the dead Nazis and the troops of the countries from the Third Reich bloc who fought on their side, as well as ordinary German citizens. The numbers will also be limited to the starting date - June 22, 1941. But with the final date chosen by us as a basis, let's say right away: it will be somewhat difficult for the Germans to calculate losses. But let's try.

The period of the Soviet-Finnish war was deliberately removed from the calculations. We will not take into account the damage in manpower during the period of the "Liberation campaign" of the Red Army.

I repeat once again that the discussion about the losses of the USSR and Germany in the Great Patriotic War has not subsided all 75 years since the day of our Great Victory. And all these years this topic has been excessively politicized. Discussions in the media are too emotional. And the participants in the controversy, as a rule, cannot agree. Not to mention the endless and never-ending violent battles over this on the Internet. The main stumbling block, as a rule, becomes argumentation.

And all because almost every Soviet family has its own tragic trace of the Great Patriotic War. And any conversation about the victims is still very painful and inevitably personalized.

Through the ideological jungle


In general, for the newest stories For Russia, this topic is very important, but debatable. Of course, looking for the ultimate truth is the lot of narrow specialists in this field. And this article is just an attempt to once again accumulate a variety of data that have been made public on this score. To remind the reader once again that the harsh truth is more expensive than the near-political embellishments. And we must look for it. And when you find it, share.

The trouble is that, as a rule, the search for real data and figures on this issue is complicated by two points. First of all, a lot of research is very superficial.

Another difficulty is that all the time you have to wade through the jungle of ideology. If in the last century books, articles, and even statistical materials abounded with communist ideology, then in the XNUMXst century, journalism and even scientific literature are sometimes colored with anti-communist passages with the same enthusiasm. Be that as it may, but the ideologization of the topic is obviously off scale at times. And, as a rule, this only testifies to the fact that the truth in such documents is very far.

Increasingly, the liberal community is trying to present the war of 1941-1945 as a battle between two ideologies or two dictatorships. They say that two totalitarian systems clashed, which supposedly cost one another. What to say? It's sad to read that.


Let's digress from this kind of trendy liberal opuses. And let's look at the Great Patriotic War from a completely different position. In this case, the geopolitical alignment can be considered the most objective view.

What did Germany look like from a geopolitical point of view on the eve of that war?

The vector of the German nation in the thirties of the last century, in fact, exactly coincided with the original aspirations of the German community - to be the first and main in Europe. And Germany then powerfully strove for uncontested leadership on the continent. Of course, with her then Nazi inclinations.

Remember how this craving for liberal hegemony was frankly expressed in the article "Germany among the European world powers" (1916) by the German sociologist Max Weber:

«Мы, 70 million Germans, ...must be an empire.

We must do this even if we are afraid to fail. "

It was written during the First World War. But even on the eve of World War II, the mood of the German elite did not change at all and did not change at all.

Scientists claim that imperial ambitions are in the blood of the Germans and that they are allegedly rooted in this nation almost from the beginning of time.

It is generally accepted that the main construct of social engineering in the era of Nazi Germany is a myth that appeals to Germany during the Middle Ages and even paganism. That is why events with just such an ideological stuffing there seriously mobilize the nation.

But there is also another point of view. Those who adhere to it believe that the empire of Charlemagne was created by the Germans. Their tribes. And on its basis, the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation later arose.

So, according to this theory, European civilization was founded by this very nation, or rather the German Empire. She also launched the eternal aggressive course of this European community to the East (known as the sacred Drang nach osten). Recall that before the VIII-X centuries. practically one-half of the lands that are now considered to be German since ancient times were owned by the Slavic tribes.

That is why when the Germans named the "Plan Barbarossa" project to attack the barbarians from the Soviet Union, it was by no means coincidence or coincidence.

One and the same ideological paradigm of the superiority of the German nation as the dominant segment of European civilization, in fact, led to two grandiose battles: the First and the Second World War. By the way, during the outbreak of World War II, albeit for a short time, Germany realized its age-old dream of primacy on the continent.

Imitation of European resistance


At the same time, the Germans then carried out their triumphal march across Europe with practically zero opposition from all neighbors.

The resistance of the troops of the European states (except Poland) was so minimal and helpless that it could be called rather an imitation of rejection of the invasion of the Nazis. The fighters of the occupied countries acted as if a tiny resistance should have been more for decency than for real defense of their own sovereignty.

Tales about the active movement of the European Resistance were composed, apparently, for purely propaganda purposes and, it seems, had nothing to do with reality. Well, again, tradition demanded that the myth be fueled that the peoples of Europe once and for all refused to rally under the banner of Germany.

The peoples of the enslaved countries themselves, perhaps, did not want a German occupation. But who is listening there? After all, the elites there absolutely resignedly accepted the new German power as a given.

And all that sea of ​​literature written about the gigantic losses allegedly inflicted by the resistance movement against the fascists in Europe is probably a bluff and nothing more.

There were also exceptions, of course. So, Yugoslavia, Albania, Poland and Greece really tried to fight the fascist regime.

And inside Germany, of course, there were also plenty of dissatisfied people. But for some reason, then neither in the countries-exceptions, nor in Berlin itself, it did not work out somehow with a nationwide protest. In the context of a country, nation, community and state - alas, in Europe the fascists were not resisted.

Let's turn to the loss figures.

Just think, over the five war years, of all those native Frenchmen who voluntarily joined the ranks of the fascists and violently crushed the Union, losses amounted to 50 thousand.

And among their actual opponents are the same French, but who nevertheless dared to voice their dissatisfaction with the German regime and joined the ranks of the French Resistance movement, 20 thousand people laid down their heads in the fight against the ideology of fascism for a whole five-year military period.

50: 20.

Yes, this is just the ascetic language of loss.

But, you must admit, how amazingly, dryly and objectively he demonstrates the harsh truth about our Great Patriotic War ... And about the true scale of French resistance, for example.


It is well known that in the past it was customary to exaggerate the scale of the Resistance. Even hypertrophy them.

This was demanded by the ideology of solidarity. Therefore, it was necessary to sing about the fact that the whole of Europe was in solidarity with the Russians in the fight against the hydra of fascism. But was it really so?

It is especially important to ask such questions now, when today's Europe is screaming louder and more violently that they lived happily ever after under the Nazis, and Russia with its Red Banner over the Reichstag, it turns out, did not free them from this plague, but came and occupied. At the same time, again, one should not forget that this is being shouted about today in the Russophobic frenzy, mainly by the elites of European countries.

So who resisted fascism there then in practice?

As mentioned above, only the four countries branded as barbaric. For the mentality of the peoples of all these four states on the territory of Europe (Yugoslavia, Albania, Poland and Greece), those European values ​​that were promoted as fashionable, modern and civilizational in those years were somewhat alien. In addition, the customs, lifestyle and traditions in these four countries were, as they would say today, traditional and patriarchal. And in its own way, the "non-traditional" fascist order of the new European power was then fundamentally contrary to their cultural code. From that there, apparently, and rebelled against the German occupiers.

And the rest - absolutely resignedly and almost without indignation, almost the entire European continent on the eve of 1941 merged into the new empire led by Germany.

And when Germany, as the leader of this new European empire, began a war with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, almost half of the twenty European countries immediately entered this war. Italy, Norway, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Finland, Croatia, Spain and Denmark (the last two countries without a formal declaration of war). All of them sent their armed forces to the Eastern Front.

And what about the rest of Europe?

They didn’t stay on the sidelines then either. Of course, they did not formally send armed forces against the USSR. But, as befits any component of a new European unified empire, they all earned on their leader, on Germany.

They grew bread for her, sewed clothes, worked in military factories, minted money, opened banks and hospitals. But what did they do for their new Nazi masters: everything for the German front, everything for the victory of fascism. Is not it?

In other words, all of Europe then turned into one fist, into a reliable and strong rear of the fascists fighting with the USSR. And we must not forget about this today.

The true role of the European satellite countries of fascist Germany should be told more and more often.

To dispel not only those ideological myths and propaganda clichés that camouflaged the truth about that war of ours, but also a distorted view of real events in Europe at that time.

Here is one example.

In November 1942, the British and Americans fought the French, not the Nazis. In North Africa, Eisenhower's allies defeated an army of 200 French.

The victory was swift there. Since there was an order from Jean Darlan to the French troops to surrender. Due to the clear superiority of the allies in manpower.

However, in the chronicle of losses, it appears that in those hostilities, the following died:

Americans - 584,

Englishmen - 597,

French - 1.

These figures, sparingly, but truthfully indicate that the realities of the Second World War were in fact more multifaceted and more confusing than it usually seems.

Or here are some more numbers. Which, whatever one may say, but much more eloquent than words.

Pan-European unity against Russia


It is known that during the battles on the Eastern Front, the Red Army captured 500 thousand prisoners who had the citizenship of countries that had not officially declared war on the USSR and, as it were, had not fought with the Union at that time.

What does it mean?

Today they would be called either mercenaries or volunteers fighting for Hitler in our Russian fields.

But, no matter how someone would like to hide this, the fact remains: half a million thugs for the Wehrmacht were put under arms by the half of Europe that allegedly did not fight with us at all.

Of course, some justly parry: they say, they were forced, forced, taken by the throat.

But the whole trouble is that the version of a half-million military contingent from the victims of exclusively German violence in the Wehrmacht troops is completely dismissed by experts.

The Germans were not idiots. For a contingent with such an unreliable reputation, the path to the front was closed in the last century.


We cited these figures as a reminder that Hitler's army that attacked the USSR was multinational. And in fact, it was, frankly and honestly, pan-European.

And as long as this bloodthirsty bulk won one battle after another on the territory of Russia, all of Europe, both in material terms, military and spiritually, was wholly and completely on the side of its all-European leader.

In confirmation, here are the words of their most common European leader Adolf Hitler, which were recorded by Franz Halder on June 30.06.1941, XNUMX:

«European unity as a result joint war against Russia».

That is, this unity of Europe was precisely formed, in other words, and was achieved precisely through a joint attack on us, on the USSR / Russia.

Agree, what a correct assessment of the real state of affairs! What a frank and kind of accurate geopolitical alignment!

In fact, the tasks of the war with the USSR were realized not only by the Germans. Behind the backs of the fascists, 300 million inhabitants of the then Europe also worked in the war. They worked together, worked together, and pursued the same goals together.

Of course, we must not forget that some of these three hundred million Europeans served the Third Reich, who then fought with us, absolutely voluntarily, and someone - involuntarily and compelled.

Be that as it may, but Europe (or the European empire) then rallied precisely for the sake of the destruction of the Union.

Let's look at the numbers again.

Relying on Europe (continental), the Nazis mobilized a quarter of the population (25%) into the army. Whereas the USSR was able to put under arms only 17% of its inhabitants.

25: 17.

That is, tens of millions of workers of the so-called European civilization, in fact, forged technical might and military strength, and also guaranteed the supply of the army that attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941.

Why do we remember this?

To state that the USSR fought not only the Third Reich during the Great Patriotic War. And not with Germany alone.

The war was fought practically and in fact - with all of continental Europe.

Then the manipulators skillfully fed the primordial Russophobia of Europeans with the horrors of Bolshevism.

It is no secret that in those days communism was presented to the inhabitants of Europe as a "terrible beast". Infected with propaganda viruses, the Europeans went to fight against Russia primarily for ideological reasons. They fought on our land with communism, as with a cursed hydra and as an ideology that they hate to the core.

And besides, the Europeans, like the Germans, even more than communism then hated the barbaric Slavs in general. They frankly and sincerely considered us inferior.

Which, of course, was facilitated by the technologies of the then social engineers, introducing into the consciousness of the inhabitants of Europe the paradigms of their absolute racial superiority over the subhuman Slavs.

But to blame everything solely on zombie and ideological fooling of Europeans by some puppeteers, of course, is not worth it. They themselves, as today's practice shows, were always ready to throw out their suppressed for the time being, but constant and inalienable internal Russophobia at any suitable moment.

No, it was not some kind of purely artificial hatred incited from the outside. And something primordial, natural and constantly living in the minds of the inhabitants of a united Europe, a sense of their own superiority and their absolute exclusivity, which Hitler and his accomplices only exploited, provoked, nurtured and warmed up.

That is why it is so dangerous, in our opinion, now (in 2021) the attempts of a modern united Europe (under the leadership, by the way, of the same country) again purposefully form the same image of the enemy - Russia under the same flag of protecting common European values. of course, for them (as well as almost a century ago) "backward", etc.

Take a look at what Reinhard Rurup (1941) writes about this in the book "The War of Germany against the Soviet Union 1945-1991":

“In many documents of the Third Reich was imprinted the image of the enemy - Russiandeeply rooted in Germanic history and society.

Such views were shared even by those officers and soldiers who were not convinced or enthusiastic Nazis.

They (these soldiers and officers) also shared the idea of ​​the "eternal struggle" of the Germans ... about the protection of European culture from the "Asian hordes", about the cultural vocation and the right to rule of the Germans in the East.

The image of an enemy of this type was widespread in Germany, it belonged to "spiritual values".

This kind of formatting of consciousness was at that time characteristic not only of the German population. The geopolitical tilt was then inherent in all of Europe.

The legions and divisions of all stripes, which then multiplied like mushrooms, defended their own European values:

Scandinavian SS "Nordland",

Belgian-Flemish "Langemark",

French "Charlemagne", etc.

But since June 22, 1941, for some reason they all fought for the values ​​of their European civilization not in their homeland, but far, far from their native land - in Belarus, in Ukraine and here in Russia?

In the book “Results of the Second World War. Conclusions of the vanquished ”(1953) German professor G.K. Pfeffer writes:

“Most of the volunteers from Western Europe went to the Eastern Front because they saw in this overall task for the whole West ".

It turns out that to this day, not stopping to repeat about its enlightenment and civilization in comparison with barbaric and backward Russia, that same united continental Europe led by Germany on June 22, 1941 came with a war to our native land?

And it was this united European civilization that fought in our Russian birch groves and in the Russian pole precisely as a horde of superhumans with subhumans, or rather, with a whole state of such barbaric subhumans - with Russia (which in those years was called the USSR)?

The Great Patriotic War, it seems, was never a clash between two dictatorships or two totalitarian regimes, as ideologists and social engineers drew.

In reality, it was a completely different geopolitical construct. And this is best demonstrated by the loss figures.

In the following articles, we will analyze various sources with specific figures for the losses of the USSR and the Wehrmacht in the Great Patriotic War. And we will try to unravel the Aesopian language of dry numbers.

To be continued ...
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  1. hohol95
    hohol95 18 January 2021 11: 44
    +1
    And not a single comment. I will wait for the continuation hi .
    But other authors have already been involved in calculating the losses on AO and their task turned out to be very difficult. Practically not feasible.
    Will there be records of civilians from Finland, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia? And how to take into account the same civilians who died in the bombing of the Allied aviation?
    1. Machito
      Machito 18 January 2021 13: 39
      +12
      The USSR defeated Hitler's European Union, but we killed too few Euro-fascists. It was necessary, like the Americans, to drive barbarian Europe into the Stone Age with carpet bombing. And then now the descendants of the fascist nedobitki would not sharpen their knives against the descendants of the victors.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 18 January 2021 16: 33
        +1
        Where could the Red Army Air Force get hundreds of long-range bombers for such a scenario? Alas, our industry could not simultaneously produce in the required quantities all the nomenclature required for the Air Force. Motors ... which were not there.
        1. Bow
          Bow 18 January 2021 18: 14
          +4
          We could put artillery in position and equalize (not just prepare the assault, but equalize) each of their settlements before the assault much more evenly than the Yankees with the help of aviation.
          Instead, we sacrificed our soldiers "to preserve the priceless architectural monuments" of their towns. Read, for example, about the capture of Prague. Konev himself unequivocally called the preservation of the city a priority during the assault.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 18 January 2021 18: 57
            -2
            For stone houses with walls almost a meter of brickwork, what calibers would be required? And how many shells? And those shells would be worth. As one veteran artilleryman said - one shell - one pair of good leather boots. This is only 122mm caliber. And if 152, 203, 210, 280, 305 mm? So the tools must be produced, the shells for them, and the main thing is to move them then not with tractors of the C-65 type, with faster tractors! Were those tractors available?
            1. Bow
              Bow 18 January 2021 19: 46
              +6
              It would be cheaper than building bombers, filling them with fuel and churning out bombs for them.
              It would be cheaper than paying for the storming of these cities with the lives of our people.
              Moreover, it would be many times cheaper than a new confrontation with them.
              If you are trying to tell that we, having come out to Europpa, did not have the means to destroy their cities, then you are simply delusional.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 18 January 2021 22: 18
                -1
                If you think my opinion is nonsense, then the conversation will not work. Everyone will have their own opinion!
                1. Bow
                  Bow 18 January 2021 23: 19
                  +6
                  Berlin offensive operation. In the offensive zone of 2 fronts (the First Belorussian and the First Ukrainian), more than 9 thousand guns and mortars, one and a half thousand rocket artillery installations were concentrated. In key sectors, more than 1 tons of ammunition fell on 350 km of the front! It must be understood that all this, mainly, fell on the outer contours of the defense of Berlin, while the city itself was later destroyed by the supporting fire of artillery and tanks. But even so, the results of the artillery work are impressive (photos and videos are in abundance on the Internet - look how the "meter-long brick" walls stood against our artillery). Now imagine if, after occupying the outer contours, the troops stopped and a new artillery barrage was prepared, after which the city itself would receive not only the supporting fire of our art, but the very same 350 tons of shells per km. What would be left of such cities then?

                  Let me remind you that this is exactly what Hitler was going to do with Leningrad, having approached the firing range of not only long-range artillery (which he failed to do). At the same time, there was enough aviation for a small Stalingrad. And they were going to destroy Leningrad with artillery.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 19 January 2021 05: 23
                    -8
                    Or maybe some of our military leaders needed to pacify their own ardor and pride? And pay more attention to the state of affairs in intelligence? And do some soldiers serve in accordance with the charter?
                    First, we had to start with ourselves.
                    1. Bow
                      Bow 19 January 2021 18: 05
                      -1
                      I know exactly what needs to be done first. First, grateful descendants, especially those who are not distinguished by intellectual abilities, should think several times before formulating their valuable opinion about past events. This is simply necessary in order not to inadvertently distort the idea of ​​such an important page in our history.

                      You, for example, with a sufficient strain of your intellect, could well come to the conclusion that one thing does not interfere with the other, at least. It is imperative to improve the skills and abilities corresponding to the position held. And not only in the army. But the proposal to replace them with a more powerful artillery barrage in this case is complete nonsense. Why should one necessarily exclude the other?

                      Couldn't you yourself have seriously approached the subject under discussion and independently reached this simple and understandable idea? What made you, contrary to logic and common sense, distort reality? How do you feel after that?
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 19 January 2021 18: 11
                        -3
                        good good good output to 5 +++! How did I decide to replace the artillery barrage? Remind.
                      2. Bow
                        Bow 19 January 2021 18: 39
                        -1
                        You can reread your message yourself, can't you?
                      3. hohol95
                        hohol95 19 January 2021 20: 15
                        0
                        Maybe you should re-read the literature about the Great Patriotic War? Or are you going to throw "propaganda tales" at me in the hope of hitting my "heart of stone"?
                        Who is responsible for the losses on the southern face of the Kursk Bulge? Who in 1942 yearned for Kharkov, and then quickly retreated to Stalingrad, who personally boasted to "twist the German's neck" after the victory near Moscow, and what came of that "boasting"? How much manpower and resources were lost in the battle for Rzhev? Who decided to create national formations, which scattered "ktov forest, and who for firewood"? Have they fought a lot?
                        And if you analyze the actions of the fleets, then in general you can become covered with gray hair. In the commanders of the KBF and KChF and their headquarters, only the paralyzed does not throw arrows!
                        Here, analyzing these own problems of command and execution of orders, we honor the memory of those who, despite all this, reached Berlin and hoisted the Victory Banner there!
                      4. Bow
                        Bow 22 January 2021 19: 07
                        +2
                        Translation of the topic into "command problems" is a receipt for the inability to discuss the previous topic. It takes courage and conscience to do it directly. As you can see, not everyone has them.
                      5. hohol95
                        hohol95 22 January 2021 20: 12
                        -2
                        Isn't leaving their territories and citizens under occupation by the enemy a problem of command ??? Or did it not inspire the propoganda - "With little blood on a foreign land"?
                        Only the war with the Finns cooled some hotheads a little.
                2. Rafidin
                  Rafidin 4 February 2021 00: 01
                  0
                  And now, again, they have plans ripening. They cannot live in peace if the Russians don’t have them a couple of times a century.
            2. boris epstein
              boris epstein 20 January 2021 15: 50
              +1
              They humbled pride and paid attention to the state of affairs in intelligence. In particular, they determined the positions of the German artillery batteries, and then waged a counter-battery battle. The battleships of the Baltic Fleet, the battleships October Revolution (12 305 mm guns) and Marat (also 12 guns), were in action. Even after it was damaged in 1942 (the nose part with the main caliber turret and superstructure was torn off), it was raised and the remaining 3 main caliber turrets (9 305 mm guns) continued to fire. The Leningrad poet wrote: "He hits the enemy from gun turrets. semi-submerged "Marat" ". And there were also the cruisers "Kirov" and "Maxim Gorky" - 9 guns each with a caliber of 180 mm, there were coastal batteries of Kronstadt, forts Krasnaya Gorka and Seraya Horse, railway batteries, there were 130-mm destroyer guns. The counter-battery fight was led by General Govorov, who graduated from the Mikhailovskaya Artillery Academy before the war.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 20 January 2021 17: 06
                -2
                Someone humbled their pride, studied himself and "spied" on others! But you will not deny the fact that in 1941-1942 and even in 1943, our military leaders at many levels created problems for themselves without bothering their brains with some analytical reflections. A striking example is Prokhorovka. Why on the Northern face the Germans were not able to break through the defenses, and on the South did they create a quite serious threat to Vatutin's troops? Why did the Germans seize air supremacy from the first hours and had to be knocked out of the sky with very generous blood? But we were preparing for battles in great detail.
                You cited as an example counter-battery combat during the defense of Leningrad. Good example. But how did the German get to the "Cradle of the Revolution"? Why wasn't he stopped? Why was the air defense system of Leningrad and Kronstadt strengthened only after the destruction of the battleship "Marat"?
              2. boris epstein
                boris epstein 20 January 2021 17: 56
                +2
                "But how did the German get to the Cradle of the Revolution?"
                You are walking down the street. Towards the fellow. Neither one nor the other punches you in the face, and then continues in full. You are not a weakling either, but he has the initiative, and you do not know his TACTICAL plans. In the end, you stop him (Moscow, Stalingrad).
                About the southern face of Vatutin and Prokhorovka Rotmistrov. Mistakes of the commanders. Or did the Germans, British, French, Americans not do them? Give examples? Pearl Harbor. The Japanese beat the Americans in the Pacific Ocean exactly as much as the Germans beat us: Dunkirk, Greece, Crete, Kasseria Passage, Monte Cassino, Naples, Operation Market Garden and the Tiger, pogrom in the Ardennes ... And how Rommel drove through the desert and beat in tail and mane three times the strength of the English, until Montgomery took command? By the way, it was against Vatutin that the bulk of the Tigers and Panthers were concentrated.
                "Why was the air defense system of Leningrad and Kronstadt strengthened only after the destruction of the battleship Marat?"
                And why did Goering vow to supply the Stalingrad group with transport aviation with everything necessary and could not?
                You and your kind love to pick a lingering wound, but the Red Army won both the Stalingrad and Kursk battles. After the Battle of Kursk, Guderian said that the Red Army had broken the back of the Pantsewaffe, and then there was the liberation of Sevastopol in four days (and your vaunted Manstein stormed it three times in 350 days), the same Manstein failed to break through to the encircled in Stalingrad and he also failed Operation Citadel , Operation Bagration, Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko, Jassy-Kishinev operation, defeat of Dietrich's 6th SS Panzer Army at Balaton, capture of Kingsberg, forcing the Oder, capture of Berlin, defeat of the Kwantung Army.
              3. hohol95
                hohol95 20 January 2021 18: 43
                -2
                The beginning of your comment is similar to what was once written by a certain person under the pseudonym Rezun!
                And before the events with which you end your comment, rivers of blood had to be shed. And leave millions of Soviet citizens in the occupation. Thousands of which will be destroyed or stolen!
                The German, imagining himself a "superman", began to make strategic mistakes, and the composition of the Red Army from private to general began to think, analyze, plan! Competently plan and competently prepare for the planned operations. That's all.
                The Japanese were also greatly let down by their pride and faith in the samurai spirit of the army. And then neither the "Exploding Sakura Petals" and belief in the "Divine Wind" nor the Divine origin of the Emperor could help them!
              4. hohol95
                hohol95 20 January 2021 18: 48
                -2
                Let's leave the analysis of the "shoals" of the British and Americans outside the dialogue. Their pride was no less than that of the Japanese. Only numerical and economic gains helped! From the lesions, they only frowned, as with a toothache, and continued to build equipment for new and new compounds!
              5. boris epstein
                boris epstein 21 January 2021 17: 19
                0
                We will not leave behind the shoals of Germans, British, French and Americans. Everyone, including Soviet commanders, is living people, and living people tend to make mistakes. Therefore, it is necessary to approach everyone with ONE measure, and not to pull out and inflate the mistakes of only SOVIET commanders.
              6. hohol95
                hohol95 21 January 2021 18: 19
                -2
                Then the Poles must be remembered. And the British and Americans in general will still "wash the bones" for the Far Eastern and Pacific fronts. Especially the problem of Singapore. The Japanese nicely took the British commanders "to the arap"!
                Are we going to dismantle the Chinese command? Kuomintang.
              7. boris epstein
                boris epstein 21 January 2021 18: 36
                +1
                Yes, we will. And precisely in order to know the history not selectively, but COMPLETELY. Moreover, the Japanese did not take Singapore "to the arap", but went with military equipment to the fortress where the British would not have been able to pass and deprived the British of cover from the sea-sank aviation British battleship and battle cruiser.
                And the Poles will be remembered for their unjustified ambition and refusal to let the Red Army in 1939 reach the line of contact with the Wehrmacht. After all, the passage corridors were determined, control was coordinated with the British, Poles and French, that is, the Red Army could not have made any impact (neither military nor political), because in that case there might not have been World War II at all. And the Chinese command will be dismantled. And not only Kuomintang, but also Maoist.
                Both the Americans and the Englishmen will wash the bones, both for underestimating the role of aircraft carriers and carrier-based aircraft before the war, and for Lend-Lease, which was terminated at critical moments on the Soviet-German front (the surrender of the PQ-17 caravan to the Germans to be torn to pieces). against this background, the role of the Red Army, its commanders and leaders of the USSR will be more clearly revealed.
              8. hohol95
                hohol95 21 January 2021 19: 49
                -2
                You know. All of this is excellent. But I don't intend to quit my job yet. And so only 2 months in a new place! If you want to arrange a dispute - write to your personal page. There is no need to fill up the thread of this article with comments.
                PS: So PQ17 is not equivalent to the "Tallinn Passage" for you?
              9. boris epstein
                boris epstein 22 January 2021 15: 08
                0
                There was a movie called "Going away."
              10. hohol95
                hohol95 22 January 2021 18: 34
                -2
                And there is a proverb - "The word is silver. Silence is GOLD!"
              11. boris epstein
                boris epstein 23 January 2021 15: 38
                0
                So shut up.
              12. boris epstein
                boris epstein 23 January 2021 15: 45
                0
                Having lost in the dispute on all counts, the Ukrainian could not even leave beautifully, he nominated. Well, I don’t minus for no reason, while there was an honest dispute, I didn’t put a single minus. Now get a reply.
              13. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 24 January 2021 23: 39
                -1
                Quote: Boris Epstein
                Having lost in a dispute over all articles


                He simply avoided a pointless argument involving a discussion of the mistakes of the Kuomintang. laughing
    2. DesToeR
      DesToeR 21 January 2021 20: 15
      +1
      Quote: Boris Epstein
      And then, against this background, the role of the Red Army, its commanders and leaders of the USSR will be more clearly revealed.

      Well said! As they say, everything is learned by comparison.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 19 January 2021 09: 38
    -2
    Look through the information about Soviet guns of special power, their number by 1944 and the amount of ammunition for them. The Germans at Leningrad pulled together a mass of large-caliber artillery. But for them it was not critical. They had much more such weapons than the Red Army. Or do you think that our artillerymen could have razed everything to the ground only with the help of the ZIS-3?
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 10
      +2
      Or do you think that our artillerymen could have razed everything to the ground only with the help of the ZIS-3?

      Alexey, do you need this dispute? He is clearly not productive ... You will not prove anything, and so you can see. drinks
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 19 January 2021 10: 16
        -2
        It was clear yesterday. So just a little hooked with the citizen. The main thing was no one objected to the comment about our military leaders and soldiers, but the minuses were stuck like a hare to a fox in a vulgar joke! laughing
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 23
        0
        like a hare to a fox of bumps in a vulgar joke!

        I corrected as much as I could, but there are many of them, and I am alone. Beware of arguing with "experts"! drinks As in that joke - "you won't achieve anything, but eat feces for free" laughing
      3. hohol95
        hohol95 19 January 2021 10: 26
        0
        I don't argue. And I also don't want to be like monkeys from the Madagascar cartoon. There, one invites the other to go to a lecture and leave the lecturer with bowel movements. laughing
      4. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 30
        +1
        There, one invites the other to go to a lecture and leave the lecturer with bowel movements.

        But what a way to relax! laughing
      5. hohol95
        hohol95 19 January 2021 10: 44
        0
        I'd rather "cleanse karma from negativity and cleanse my chakras" differently. drinks I'm not an American zoo monkey.
      6. hohol95
        hohol95 19 January 2021 20: 21
        0
        Go to the lecture hall or the "five"? crying
        "Eagle - fishing
        Heads for the hunt
        And if it's on the edge - it means to work "
  • hohol95
    hohol95 19 January 2021 10: 28
    -1
    So in one anecdote, the crow suggested that the sparrow end the argument and fly to where the horse cleared the intestines. Otherwise, stay without hot, she told them. drinks
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 20: 18
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    The main thing was that nobody objected to the comment about our military leaders and soldiers.

    Do you want to calculate the percentage of "hats" in the Red Army on 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX? Again? You have also written the main argument: Soviet military leaders are people, and people tend to make mistakes. At all times, in all countries.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 20: 27
    -2
    Only the mistakes of some lead to a cut in the finger, while others to hundreds of thousands of victims. That's the whole difference.
    We overcame our own management problems (almost all). But it was given with a very generous blood.
    That's all.
    The burden of responsibility is very different for everyone.
    And some mistakes cannot be redeemed ...
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 20: 51
    +2
    Quote: hohol95
    Only the mistakes of some lead to a cut in the finger, while others to hundreds of thousands of victims. That's the whole difference.

    Do you consider the loss of your own country a mistake of the leadership of the 3rd Reich at the level of a cut a finger? Against this background, the eight million Nazis who became fertilizer in the vastness of the USSR really look like a "cut a finger."
    Quote: hohol95
    We overcame our own management problems (almost all). But it was given with a very generous blood.

    Everything is relative. The blood (considerable) of some prevented the mass extermination of all the peoples of the USSR. The wolf bites off its own paw, if it gets into a trap.
    Quote: hohol95
    The burden of responsibility is very different for everyone.
    And some mistakes cannot be redeemed ...

    And how was the officer corps supposed to act in the realities of 1941 - 1942? Our generals could at least save the country, i.e. fulfilled the main thing - ensured the survival of the nation. But French, German and many other European "professionals" did not cope with this task. But in the memoirs (of course, post-war) they are all "krasautsy"! Hitler alone is a fool ...
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 21: 14
    -2
    Was it only the generals who could save the country? Didn't the home front workers contribute to this? Or was the supply of the army taken from the air?
    And further! I also wrote about ordinary soldiers. Sometimes a negligent attitude towards the service of the junior command and enlisted personnel led to sad consequences. How many strategically important bridges were ineptly given to the enemy, and he crossed water barriers along them. Counterintelligence agencies, instead of capturing living saboteurs, used the most common thing - destruction for further work with them. Before the war, intelligence behind enemy lines was taught from a book in which it was recommended to take 200 rounds of ammunition per rifle on a mission and nothing was said about the nutrition of the scouts.
    Even on Khalkhin -gol, it turned out that the uniform of Soviet officers is full of brilliant elements and distinctive signs. They were excellent targets for Japanese snatzers. And the helmets of ordinary soldiers glittered in the Mongolian sun, like a bright illumination. The Japanese, on the other hand, painted their helmets with the addition of sand. And they did not give them glare in the sun.
    The same "little things" remained on June 22, 1941. But it turned out that there are no trifles in military affairs.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 21: 22
    +2
    Quote: hohol95
    The same "little things" remained on June 22, 1941. But it turned out that there are no trifles in military affairs.

    I fully agree with your every thesis. But, again, everything is learned in comparison. What another friend has already written to you. You can pull on absurdities and nonsense in any army of that time. The Germans in the winter of 1941-42 must have been, to put it mildly, not enthusiastic about their uniforms, and Soviet snipers quickly explained to the Nazis that putting various emblems on their helmets was clearly not the best option. Everyone learned from each other, and in a war "pay" for education can only be done in one currency - blood. The only difference is that some learned faster than others managed to exterminate them. Let us leave tales about the unlimited human resources of the USSR on the "conscience" of the beaten German generals.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 21: 55
    -1
    I have always been a supporter of the denial of the thesis - "corpses filled up"! But...
    I recommend that you go to warspot.ru and read the article “What did the company-Vanka saw and did not see.” A similar case from the book of the same name by AI Shumilin is analyzed there!
    But I also disagree with the assertions of those who "rip a vest on themselves" and shout - "why were they stormed the cities and put people, artillery on a direct line and not leave a stone unturned"!
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 22: 06
    +3
    Quote: hohol95
    But ...
    I recommend that you go to warspot.ru and read the article "What has been seen and what has not been seen by" Company-Vanka ".

    Once upon a time I read a lot of memoirs of the participants in those events. Yes, this is interesting, but at the same time subjective. War is very large numbers, and where there are large numbers, it is not subjective opinion that works, but statistics. With the analysis in the USSR, judging by the results of the war, everything was generally not bad. Any quality management is impossible without analysis.
    Quote: hohol95
    But I also disagree with the assertions of those who "rip a vest on themselves" and shout - "why were they stormed the cities and put people, artillery on a direct line and not leave a stone unturned"!

    And I do not agree, but not because I do not own the figures for the rate of expenditure on the destruction of such a target as a millennium European city of the 40s. But because by education I am a civil engineer and I quite well understand that a projectile flying along a ballistic trajectory weighing 6 ... 70 kg from 1 ... 5 kg. explosives will destroy a multi-storey stone structure for a very long time. It is much more efficient (faster and cheaper) to undermine foundations and other load-bearing elements of buildings by engineering teams. And there is no point. The experience of Stalingrad showed that the debris from destruction does not interfere with the defenders in any way, but at the same time it strongly constrains the attackers.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 22: 09
    -1
    Soviet soldiers in the winter of 1939-1940 were also not happy with their uniforms. As a uniform headdress of the ground forces of the Red Army, the cap with earflaps appeared in 1940 !!!
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 22: 32
    +3
    Quote: hohol95
    As a uniform headdress of the ground forces of the Red Army, the cap with earflaps appeared in 1940 !!!

    I don’t argue with you! Everyone learns from their mistakes - there are no exceptions. We very quickly realized that boots for a soldier are better than boots, but we really got to Berlin in them ... Do you think the Red Army did not know that leather goods in a fighter's ammunition last longer and better than tarpaulin? But what do we see (lo and behold!) The Germans EMNIP since 1943 go to the imitation leather in their excellent ammunition, I am adopting samples of the "rifleman" that the Wehrmacht Model 1939 would not have dreamed of even in a nightmare. Large numbers of realities of that war are at work. The life of a soldier is much more fleeting than wear and tear.
    PS I try not to go into comments while someone gives figures and analytics backed up by facts. But it hurts me for the "value judgments" of the type "not thanks, but in spite of", and even completely ignoring the completely symmetrical state of affairs in the "late" Third Reich. When the time for "free nishtyaks" has passed. Concerning the Soviet generals, there is a specific opinion of the "participant" of those events - Hitler. The moment when he asked for an album with images (or photographs) of Soviet generals. There is no disdain from the word at all, but there is a not quite flattering comparison with the existing German command.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 22: 55
    -1
    Ushanka is not a mistake. The Germans created their shape based on their own knowledge of the climate in Europe. And our own industrial capabilities. But our "bright heads" living in our own climate did not bother with such a headdress. We decided that a woolen "budenovka" would save us from any frost. But at the same time, the command staff developed a Finnish hat. Without ears, but with a back turning down. Living in our country, people who were concerned about supplying the army did not think about using their "products" in real combat conditions. It is clear that up to a certain moment the army was a militia type. The economy did not pull on in many respects. But it seems that many items of uniform and soldier's food did not pass any fitness tests at all. As they took the form of a bowler hat from the tsarist army, they walked with it. The most awkward bowler hat in the world! Even the flasks were made of glass. They saved metal. But how long will such a flask live with a soldier on the front line ...
    Hitler was looking at an album with data on our generals, and did our high ranks of the Red Army know a lot about their potential opponents? It seems to me that there was little information. And not many people thought about it!
    First of all, you need to start the demand from yourself ... Do not sprinkle ashes on your head or tear your vest in "righteous anger", but systematically and competently analyze each case.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 21 January 2021 23: 11
    +2
    Quote: hohol95
    The Germans created their shape based on their own knowledge of the climate in Europe.

    Why then did they "climb" out of their cozy little world to us? Without preparing the appropriate "inventory" in advance ... Or is it different - you need to understand?
    Quote: hohol95
    Ushanka is not a mistake.

    Well, following the logic of the Wehrmacht, then the Red Army was not going to fight in the Arctic Circle. At least until the entry into force of General Frost, and there it is ... sadness. But we will forgive the Germans, but we will ask our own people to the fullest extent.
    Quote: hohol95
    But it seems that many of the uniforms and soldiers' food did not pass any suitability tests at all.

    It is not.
    Quote: hohol95
    Even the flasks were made of glass. They saved metal. But how long will such a flask live with a soldier on the front line ...

    As far as I know, glass flasks were also used in the Wehrmacht. And EMNIP even in the USA of those times. Again, what does this prove? That in the USSR there was not enough aluminum even for aircraft - yes. We need to run a lag of 100 years in ten years. Or they will crush us. The message is correct, and we were able to do a lot (Berlin is not so easy to take on one "grandfather's skill"). But miracles do not happen.
    Quote: hohol95
    Hitler was looking at an album with data on our generals, and did our high ranks of the Red Army know a lot about their potential opponents?

    Intelligence in the USSR did not eat bread for nothing. Analysis is not possible without assessing the enemy's control system. And planning is impossible without analysis. So yeah, I think we knew our likely opponents.
    Quote: hohol95
    First of all, you need to start the demand from yourself ... Do not sprinkle ashes on your head or tear your vest in "righteous anger", but systematically and competently analyze each case.

    I agree.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 22 January 2021 12: 01
    -1
    I don't care about the frostbitten Germans and their allies.
    But for the Red Army soldiers who were rolling frostbite in the winter of 1939-1940, it's a shame. Themselves started a war in winter conditions.
  • Bow
    Bow 19 January 2021 18: 35
    0
    A cursory search yields about a thousand barrels of special and powerful weapons.

    At the same time, you "forgot" about the existence of corps and army artillery (a caliber of up to 152 mm is not capable of working on "meter walls"?). Number of under 20 thousand trunks.

    And if it comes to that, then even a hundred thousand (!!!) of ZIS-3 released by us is not to steal buns from the table.

    So what do you say there was with the Germans near Leningrad?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 19 January 2021 20: 18
      -2
      BR-17 gun. How many shells were there on June 22, 1941? How many guns were there? How did the B-4 howitzer shoot and why did they not produce modern HE ammunition for it?
      Didn't you bother yourself with these questions?
    2. Bow
      Bow 22 January 2021 19: 09
      0
      What year are we talking about? You are entangled in three pines
    3. hohol95
      hohol95 22 January 2021 20: 14
      0
      Is there a difference over the years? Our artillery did not last the whole war. And in terms of the quantity of ammunition and their quality!
      And there were many problems with the quantity of artillery itself.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 January 2021 10: 57
    +8
    Quote: Bow
    It must be understood that all this, mainly, fell on the outer contours of the defense of Berlin, while the city itself was later destroyed by the supporting fire of artillery and tanks.

    You forgot about the Ingvoys. And their explosive consumption during the battles in Berlin went off scale. EMNIP, Isaev in his LiveJournal commented that, judging by the documents, the sappers in Berlin, during the assault on the defense units, did not bother looking for workarounds - they just walked straight ahead, undermining the walls of houses on their way. Here are the results of the work of the 2nd Shisbr given to the 8th Guards A:
    During the battles for Berlin, sappers made about 1500 breaches in the walls and ceilings of buildings, more than 1000 passages in barricades, and 159 objects were blown up.

    To flood the underground communications of Berlin (which annoyed our command with the constant appearance of enemy groups from nowhere), as many as 1,8 tons of explosives were used only when the S-Bahn tunnel under the Landwehrkanal was blown up.
    1. Bow
      Bow 19 January 2021 17: 52
      0
      It seems to me that I expressed a rather simple idea for understanding. Just add to everything that was also the artillery preparation I described in the city itself.
      Again, the same Prague was taken with minimal damage. Or they could have done it differently.
      If you want, you can also add the corresponding demolition work after taking. To consolidate the result.
      All this was more than in our power.
      Due to the above considerations, it is very foolish to talk about the fact that European cities survived only because we had few bomber aircraft.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 January 2021 18: 12
        +1
        Quote: Bow
        Again, the same Prague was taken with minimal damage. Or they could have done it differently.

        Could not. Because Prague was taken "on the move" by tank formations, which were sad with artillery - because high-speed tractors could carry AU with a caliber of no more than 100-122 mm. So Konev traditionally presented need as virtue. Yes, and there was little enemy in Prague.
        By the way, stories about how
        Quote: Bow
        we donated our soldiers "for the preservation of priceless architectural monuments" of their towns
        - These are mostly stories or post-war PR for the "allies in the ATS", not supported by documents. Last year, in the comments to stories about the capture of European capitals, the consumption of OM and BM ammunition and orders for firing were regularly posted up to harassing fire in the city center from B-4.
        And most importantly, in 1944-1945. there was practically no one to donate. The mob potential of the USSR was exhausted - one could only hope for the call of the next age. Divisions of 6000 men were considered "well-equipped" - and this is less than half of the staff. As a result, the lack of l / s had to be compensated for with artillery firepower, propping up rifle regiments with artillery divisions.
      2. Bow
        Bow 22 January 2021 19: 17
        0
        Did they take it on the move? And how else to take if they decided not to use artillery almost? You are confusing cause and effect.
        "Disturbing fire in the center" and the total destruction of foreign cities are not the same thing, is it?
        There was no one to sacrifice, you write. So they donated. And they could destroy from all trunks, in spite of the destruction of OTHER cities.
        But we are not some kind of monsters, like the citizens of the State of Israel, who are fighting other people by destroying their homes cleaned up.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 05: 45
      -1
      ))
      Artillery enthusiast, I'm watching.
      Quote: Bow
      And if it comes to that, then even a hundred thousand (!!!) of ZIS-3 released by us is not to steal buns from the table.

      The ZiS-3 was pure sabotage. Like most of the rest of the "legendary" Soviet weapons.

      Quote: Bow
      Again, the same Prague was taken with minimal damage.

      You, I see, do not know the history of the Second World War even in general terms.
      1. Events in Prague took place in peacetime. The ceremony at Karlhorst took place before the arrival of Soviet troops in Prague.
      2. At the time of the entry into the city of Konev's forces, it was not controlled by German troops.
      3. Prague - the capital of Czechoslovakia, the country of the anti-Hitler coalition. The USSR recognized the Benes government on July 18, 1941. The 1st Czechoslovak Corps (from April 44th) operates as part of the Soviet units.
      4. The Americans are 2 hours' walk from Prague. Their patrols in the suburbs of Prague.

      I, of course, understand your bloodlust in some way. It seems that the USSR did a lot to be hated in those places, but, alas, and now Prague is almost the main nest of friends of the Russian Federation in Europe. But you also understand Comrade. Stalin. He could not be especially bloodthirsty in the spring of 45, just stupidly there was no time. You now know that the Americans' love of advice has not passed for many years, and Comrade Stalin could not know this.
    3. hohol95
      hohol95 20 January 2021 17: 11
      0
      ZIS-3 sabotage - Long live the Balearic sling and the Cretan bow!
    4. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 20: 32
      -1
      What other 3 "divisional weapons of WWII times do you know?"
    5. hohol95
      hohol95 20 January 2021 20: 34
      0
      F-22USV
      Name the places of copper mining in the USSR in 1941!
    6. boris epstein
      boris epstein 23 January 2021 16: 39
      0
      Divisional gun 1902-1930, regimental 76-mm cannon model 1927, 76-mm cannon model 1933, 76-mm regimental cannon F-22 (not to be confused with F-22 USV), 76-mm mountain gun model 1938 , 76-mm regimental gun model 1943 OB-25, 76-mm anti-aircraft gun 9K, 76-mm anti-aircraft gun model 1931 3K, 76-mm anti-aircraft gun model 1938
  • hohol95
    hohol95 20 January 2021 20: 46
    0
    75mm guns type 38. Type 90. Japan.
    The British purchased 895 guns Model 1897 from the USA after fleeing France.
    But the British longbow is certainly better! good
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 21: 09
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    75mm guns type 38. Type 90. Japan.
    895 pieces of guns Model 1897 were purchased by the British in the USA after fleeing from France

    Yes, great examples, thanks.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 20 January 2021 21: 19
    0
    Are you unsatisfied with something?
    The Japanese fleet was stronger than the Soviet one. And they knew how to make planes. They just didn't invest heavily in tanks. But with the available forces a lot of "pepper" was given to the British and Americans.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 21: 23
    +1
    What does the fleet have to do with it? Have you decided to compare the imperial fleet with the Soviet one?

    As for the Japanese artillery, yes, it was lightened. As was the case with the British, who, in a panic in 40, bought up all the scrap metal for their Volkssturm. They took a deep breath - they continued to staff the divisions with regular 25lbt, 24 pieces for each infantry regiment.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 20 January 2021 21: 30
    0
    So how many copper mines did the British have in the colonies? How much did the USSR mine for its copper? Could we change casings starting from a rifle cartridge and ending with casings for new modern field guns with caliber from 85 mm? Or we even tried to save on everything and tried to make steel casings for gunshots. But they got to the normal quality only after the war.
    These are all modern dances with a tambourine. Everything is not so and not like that. All that we can and know. And then our ancestors turned out to be dark fools and won the war with simple slingshots in their hands.
    We did not live with you at that time. Didn't live.
    And the allot is just, as an example - making warships at the world level, the Japanese had their own attitude to artillery and tank building.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 20 January 2021 21: 46
    -1
    What was in the French divisional artillery?
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 21 January 2021 16: 27
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    The British purchased 895 guns Model 1897 from the USA after fleeing France.

    Do you know why the United States was so actively selling and distributing its 75-mm under Lend-Lease? And why did FDR get away with this squandering? Yes, because the 75th cannon in the United States was considered and was obsolete - the American artillery just before the war began the transition to 105-mm gun, traditionally delayed by the industry.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 21 January 2021 17: 09
    0
    Sold and sold. How did the French themselves shoot in 1940 ??? Is it not one of those same 75 mm model 1897?
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 29 January 2021 03: 12
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    How did the French themselves shoot in 1940 ???

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_105_court_mle_1934_Schneider
  • hohol95
    hohol95 30 January 2021 22: 49
    0
    Canon de 75 mm modèle 1897 modifié 1938 - all modernization was reduced to a new wheel travel with suspension and wheels on pneumatic tires.
    About 700 of the 5667 Canon de 75 mm modèle 1897 guns available to the French army in 1940 underwent such modernization!
    Canon de 75 mm modèle 1897 modifié 33.-
    The most important part was indeed almost entirely taken from the 1897 cannon, but the carriage was different. In the firing position, the box-shaped beds moved apart, giving a sector of fire of 60 °, and at the same time the all-metal wheels turned and could serve as additional protection. 71 guns made!
    Canon de 105 mm C modèle 1934 specified by you managed to make by 1940 304 guns.!
    Howitzer Canon de 105 mm With modèle 1935 - "mix" of gun carriage Canon de 75mm modèle 1897 m. 33. and a new barrel. They managed to produce 72 howitzers.
    It turns out that 75 mm of the times of the First Imperialist French army had more than 105 mm howitzers.
    But at first they wanted to equip the French divisional artillery with 120 mm howitzers. and they could not make anything intelligible. So they rushed back to the caliber of 105 mm, but "the time train has long since left."
    And the Canon de 105 mle 1913 Schneider howitzer is almost forgotten -
    700 copies were captured by the "Hunno-Teutons", and by May 1940, by May, there were 854 of them in the army.
    And again, this is a weapon of WWI times.
    So, that leaves the French divisional artillery was densely saturated with an obsolete 75 mm gun from the times of WWI.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 31 January 2021 05: 33
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    So, that leaves the French divisional artillery was densely saturated with an obsolete 75 mm gun from the times of WWI.

    Because of you, I had to deal with the topic of French art that was completely uninteresting to me.
    France really began to rearm in arte shortly before the war, and by the 39th their division still included a regiment of light (36 pieces) and a regiment of heavy (24x155) guns. This is quite comparable with the pre-war Soviet division (16x3 "32x5", 12x6 "). But, naturally, it is not comparable with the Soviet military rifle division (20x3, 12x5).
  • hohol95
    hohol95 4 February 2021 20: 56
    0
    Because of you, I had to deal with the topic of French art that was completely uninteresting to me.

    File a complaint about the arbitrariness and forcing "to deal with a topic of French art that is completely uninteresting to me."
    France really began to rearm in arte shortly before the war, and by the 39th their division still included a regiment of light (36 pieces) and a regiment of heavy (24x155) guns. This is quite comparable to the pre-war Soviet division (16x3 "32x5", 12x6 "). But, of course, it is not comparable to the Soviet military rifle division (20x3, 12x5).

    And if you compare the Soviet military rifle division with the French military infantry division?
    Oh, and there is nothing to compare with ... The French did not make it to such compounds. They capitulated.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 5 February 2021 11: 07
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    Oh, and there is nothing to compare with ... The French did not make it to such compounds. They capitulated.

    Again twenty-five.
    1. I also compare the Soviet art with the art of the countries that fought until 45. France, 45, had art, as far as I know, according to the American standard.
    2.
    German Surrender Act

    Signatures: Smith, Susloparov, Sevez. So who surrendered there - the question is not so simple.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 6 February 2021 21: 04
    0
    France, 45, had art, as far as I know, according to the American standard.

    How beautifully they wrote - "according to the American standard"! Handsomely.
    And why not write it more simply - all the military equipment and artillery in the formations of Free France were manufactured and provided by the British and Americans.
    Signatures: Smith, Susloparov, Sevez. So who surrendered there - the question is not so simple.

    June 22, 1940 in the Compiegne forest.
    The surrender was personally accepted by Hitler, signed by General Charles Hüntziger from the French side.
    Nobody could have known about May 1945 ...
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 6 February 2021 21: 35
    +2
    Quote: hohol95
    all military equipment and artillery in the formations of the Free France were manufactured and provided by the British and Americans.

    Yeah. Is this someone else's problem?
    Quote: hohol95
    Nobody could have known about May 1945 ...

    Let's say there is no May 45 at all, the Reich rotting until the 91st year. How much is there a loss of France in WWII, 600 thousand?
  • Bow
    Bow 22 January 2021 19: 19
    +1
    ZiS 2 sabotage? With such a highly educated interlocutor and argue zapadlo).
    On events in Prague. Moreover, there was no need to rush.
    What difference does it make to us who controlled the city? The main thing is not by us.
    Czechoslovakia. Exactly. Have you read the article at all?
    For the Americans. Bypass part of the forces of the city and meet allies away from it. Haven't you heard of that? And after that I do not know the history of the Second World War?

    No bloodthirstiness. Analysis of opportunities that we did not use due to kindness and condescension to the vanquished.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 22 January 2021 20: 08
    0
    Cherry Nine considers ZIS-3 sabotage. Do not juggle.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 29 January 2021 03: 30
    0
    Quote: Bow
    ZiS 2 sabotage?

    Of course. But initially it was about the ZiS-3. You do not distinguish between them, do I understand correctly?
    Quote: Bow
    What difference does it make to us who controlled the city?

    You see, if the Americans entered the city, then, with a high probability, you could no longer happen there. Comrade Stalin considered this highly undesirable.
    Quote: Bow
    Have you ever read the article?

    Which one?
    Quote: Bow
    Haven't you heard of that? And after that I don't know the history of the Second World War?

    You don't seem to know her at all. While you are maneuvering around Prague, the Germans will simply run away from there. In fact, they would have fled anyway, if the hunting excitement had not been played out on the Soviet side. Not only that, the longer you mess around, the more likely Benes, Patton or Truman will run out of patience. Comrade Stalin in those days was greatly disturbed by the hints that appeared that Prague would be liberated without him. And this is a matter of hours - on May 8, Patton is 3 hours away from Prague.
    Quote: Bow
    Analysis of opportunities that we did not use due to kindness and condescension to the vanquished.

    You weren't there, I have to remind you. But Comrade Stalin was not distinguished by kindness and condescension. However, he was distinguished by a strange form of economy: he treated cities and especially factories in the Soviet zone of occupation rather carefully. Perhaps more carefully than on the territory of the USSR.
  • Bow
    Bow 31 January 2021 19: 30
    0
    Will they enter the city surrounded by us? You cannot add 2 + 2. How did you teach you how to write?

    About ZIS3 - I wrote, even here to argue zapadlo.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 31 January 2021 23: 07
    0
    Quote: Bow
    You cannot fold 2 + 2

    What a mathematician. If the GA Center runs from east to west, then bypassing and surrounding the largest transport hub is a hundred percent easier and faster than going directly to the city, where by that moment there are almost no Germans. This is despite the fact that Konev needs to overtake not only Patton, but also Eremenko and Malinovsky. No, great idea, no questions asked.
    Quote: Bow
    About ZIS3 - I wrote, even here to argue zapadlo.

    Yes, for sure.
  • Edvid
    Edvid 19 January 2021 11: 35
    +3
    Even before the storming of Berlin, an allied squadron of 1200 heavy bombers dumped a bomb load on the capital of Germany !.
  • Sergey79
    Sergey79 19 January 2021 12: 18
    +5
    Thanks to the author. More such articles are necessary. Maybe there will be at least one "Nikolai s Urengoy" less .... I fundamentally disagree with the comment. First, the Russian soldier has always been distinguished by his generosity towards the vanquished. And secondly, it is possible to wipe the city off the face of the earth with artillery fire, but it is very difficult. I have knowledge of artillery.
    1. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 19 January 2021 23: 28
      +1
      Why waste artillery ammunition? SHISBR companies with flamethrowers and explosive charges would have done this with the support of three tanks each without much trouble. All the floors then were made of wood - European houses would be gloriously glowing.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 19 January 2021 16: 03
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    Motors ... which were not there.

    as well as gasoline, explosives, etc. request
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 19 January 2021 16: 58
      +1
      Exactly. A particularly difficult situation with the explosives developed by 1942. And the allies decided to replace the explosives with ready-made ammunition for the supplied equipment.
  • boris epstein
    boris epstein 19 January 2021 16: 36
    +3
    Because just the opposite. After all, Polish Krakow was saved by the Soviet reconnaissance group from a massive blow up by the Nazis. Vienna was also stormed without the use of aircraft and heavy artillery. Many cities were not completely surrounded, but left a hole for the retreat of Hitler's troops. The goals of this were as follows:
    Avoid street fights. The biggest losses are in such battles. Smash the troops that left the city in the field.
    Save buildings, structures and industrial facilities.
    Save, if possible, the lives of civilians.
    About motors and bombers. When it was necessary to level Budapest, Königsberg, Breslau and Berlin, everything was enough - and artillery, and ammunition, and aircraft. My grandfather took part in the battles for Budapest, Vienna and Breslau.
    The first bombing of Berlin was carried out by Soviet aviation in 1941. There were long-range heavy bombers Petlyakov Pe-8, Ilyushin Il-4, Arkhangelsk. But ONLY industrial objects were bombed.
    Phrase IV Stalin when the Red Army entered Germany: "We are not at war with the German people. We are at war with German fascism."
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 19 January 2021 17: 19
      +1
      Confusing Ar-2 with Er-2. The Ar-2 (the last modification of the SB-2) could not reach Berlin in any way.
    2. hohol95
      hohol95 19 January 2021 17: 23
      +1
      And the Romanian oil fields. Only these were pin pricks when compared with the raids of contemporaries. The same DB-3 / Il-4 worked not only in the distant rear. And in comparison with the B-25 they were losing.
      1. boris epstein
        boris epstein 19 January 2021 17: 34
        +2
        It was just the allys who bombed mainly the residential areas of Leipzig, Dresden, Hamburg ... Their bombing, but for a good deed, on factories producing bearings. Otherwise, they almost did not touch the factories in the zone that went to them, the factories, the shares of which were owned by the American millionaires, did not touch them either. They only practiced a fire storm in Dresden against the civilian population.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 19 January 2021 17: 47
          +1
          This was the doctrine of one of the senior officers of Her Majesty's Air Force. To deprive the German of working rest in their own home and thereby undermine the economy of the TR. But the Germans had to scatter the factories, and some even sent underground.
          1. boris epstein
            boris epstein 19 January 2021 17: 51
            0
            And the biggest paradox is that their bombing had no effect. The production of weapons in Germany increased until the end of 1944, and not only Germans, but also prisoners of war worked in German enterprises, which is prohibited by the Geneva Convention. That is, it says that they can work, but only VOLUNTARY and with wages equal to the citizen of the country that took him prisoner.
            1. Oprichnik
              Oprichnik 19 January 2021 23: 36
              +1
              And these volunteers also went on strike when they were not paid extra and the Nazis dutifully increased their salaries - this is how some French "genius and thinker, writer and master of thought" recalled his work for the good of the Reich at the factory. Similar events took place in the Czech Republic. And if you look at the photo of a crowd of many hundreds of thousands and "all the Czech sorrows" over the murdered Nazi, it becomes a pity that these Czechs got off so lightly and did not pay for producing weapons for the Reich before May 10-12, 1945 !! !
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 18 January 2021 18: 44
    +5
    Quote: Bearded
    It was necessary, like the Americans, to drive barbarian Europe into the Stone Age with carpet bombing.

    Why be like the barbarians. The USSR was a great country and Soviet people could not afford such barbarism, our ancestors had different ideology.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 19 January 2021 16: 01
      +3
      Quote: aleksejkabanets
      Why be like the barbarians.

      My grandfather in the 28th Army ended the war (and even after that he was late) - just East Prussia. Before the very beginning of the East Prussian operation, the watered workers from the army headquarters constantly reminded - "Why be like the barbarians."
  • lelik613
    lelik613 20 January 2021 07: 45
    +1
    Attack us. Therefore, their civilian losses interest (us) very shallowly, like the loss of a criminal's family during his neutralization ..
  • neri73-r
    neri73-r 18 January 2021 12: 51
    +1
    Very interesting, we will wait for the continuation.
  • certero
    certero 18 January 2021 13: 44
    +2
    Undoubtedly, the participation of other European countries was. The weight is different, from Romania and Hungary, which supplied hundreds of thousands of soldiers, to France, whose industry almost failed to be used for the needs of the Reich. Although captured weapons were actively used.
    Losses in battles against the Germans were higher for the spacecraft than for the enemy almost throughout the war. It is a fact. Another thing is that when they begin to "fill up with corpses" or "one in ten", it causes shock. Since nobody in modern war can be filled with corpses.
    The overall ratio will not be in our direction, since the defeat of 41 was avenged at 44, but it was impossible to completely compensate for the boilers of 41.
    1. nedgen
      nedgen 18 January 2021 21: 52
      +1
      Well, the fact that the French industry did not produce tanks and aircraft for the Reich is a fact. Well, the French did not have good planes and tanks before the war, BUT they delivered hundreds of thousands of cars and a huge amount of ammunition and equipment to the Wehrmacht. And cars and trains in WWII were almost more important than tanks. Indeed, without them, you will not deliver what the army needs in the place and time where it is needed. And also, to put it mildly, it is not true that the losses of the spacecraft were higher than the losses of the Wehrmacht since the end of 1943. Since then, the losses of the Wehrmacht began to exceed the losses of the USSR, including because of those who were surrounded and trying to escape from there. Read, for example, about the massacre that the Germans got into during the breakout from the Korsun-Shevchenko boiler. And when the fortified strips are broken through, it is ABSOLUTELY normal that the losses of the assaults are higher. The same was true of the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the Second World War and even in the middle. But this is only when the band is broken through and then the losses of the defending side begin to increase actively, because it has to retreat (run away) to get out of the encirclement, etc. leaving the damaged equipment of the killed and wounded (many of whom could have been saved), supplies and fuel, and without all this the army is not an army, but just a crowd of people armed with almost sticks. And iron all these people on the roads and tanks and attack aircraft, etc. So the losses of the Red Army after the middle of the war definitely started to decrease in comparison with the Wehrmacht. And the factor of the accumulation of experience by the fighters and commanders of the spacecraft and the loss of the same with the increase in losses and the arrival of almost untrained recruits into the ranks of the Wehrmacht also affected. And all this is possible ONLY with a decrease in losses compared to the Wehrmacht. hi In a special way, this was reflected in the decrease in tank losses despite the increased power of anti-tank equipment and tank guns of the Germans, as well as the massive use of anti-tank grenade launchers, but thanks to the constant improvement of the skill of the crews and commanders, the number of tank losses began to decrease compared to the period until the end of 1943. hi
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 January 2021 10: 37
        +5
        Quote: nedgen
        Well, the fact that the French industry did not produce tanks and aircraft for the Reich is a fact. Well, the French did not have good planes and tanks before the war

        Therefore, the French produced German aircraft - the same "Rama". smile
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 11: 02
          -2
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Therefore, the French produced German aircraft - the same "Ram"

          300 pieces, I think?
        2. DrEng527
          DrEng527 19 January 2021 16: 05
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          produced German aircraft

          as well as various units, assemblies, components, etc., which freed the German industry
      2. boris epstein
        boris epstein 19 January 2021 16: 48
        +1
        The French produced the best bomber sights in the world at that time for the Luftwaffe.
        Anyway. The book "Wehrmacht's Weapons". Minsk, Harvest, 1999. "In the course of military campaigns in the West, the arms of 92 French, 22 Belgian, 18 Dutch, 6 Norwegian and 30 Czechoslovak divisions were in the hands of the Germans."
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 09: 10
      -6
      Quote: certero
      as the defeat of 41, although it was avenged at 44

      In what operation, excuse me?
      1. Petrik66
        Petrik66 19 January 2021 10: 04
        +5
        Yassy-Kishinev and Belorussian operations? Do you have doubts?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 11: 09
          -1
          Quote: Petrik66
          Any doubts?

          Конечно.
          Belarus Germans 400 (Fraser) - 500 (Isaev) thousand general, USSR - 766 (Krivosheev) thousand general.
          Yassy-Chisinau, yes, an exception to the general rule, 115 thousand Germans, 66 thousand of the Red Army. True, this is if Ya-K is counted only in August, if from April - in terms of losses, everything becomes as usual for the 44th.

          Avenged for 41 years, yeah.
          1. boris epstein
            boris epstein 23 January 2021 16: 12
            0
            Do you know the rule that the losses of the attacker and the defender are treated as 3-4 to one? Therefore, the losses in Operation Bagration are 766 from the Soviet side and 000 from the German side, a very decent ratio. According to Soviet statistics, 500% of the wounded returned to service. The difference is that during the defeat of Army Group Center, the captured Nazis should be included among the irrecoverable losses. How many of them passed through Moscow during Operation Big Waltz? But the entire Army Group Center was completely defeated and the Red Army advanced 000-60 kilometers.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 29 January 2021 03: 39
              +1
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              Do you know the rule that the losses of the attacker and the defender are 3-4 to one?

              What conversations have gone. In what German offensive operation was this loss ratio?
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              According to Soviet statistics, 60% of the wounded returned to duty.

              Yeah, the USSR has always been distinguished by its worthless medicine. Why do you remember this?
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              The difference is that during the defeat of Army Group Center, the captured Nazis should be included in the irrecoverable losses.

              Yes, that's the problem with boilers. Taking into account prisoners, the non-return is approximately equal, 200K / 200K. For one killed, the loss of the Red Army is several times higher, from a military point of view, they worked terribly badly.
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              But the entire Army Group Center was completely defeated and the Red Army advanced 550-600 kilometers.

              Yes, in the 44th, the Red Army moved west, not east. But initially, it seemed to me, it was about some kind of revenge for the 41st, no?
              1. boris epstein
                boris epstein 29 January 2021 17: 10
                0
                60% of the return to the ranks of the wounded is a very high percentage, one of the best.
                "For one killed, the loss of the Red Army is several times higher, from a military point of view, they worked terribly badly"
                The total losses of Germany in the Second World War are 20 million with a civilian population, which was destroyed by carpet bombing and fire storms by the allied aviation. Total COMBAT irrecoverable losses of Germany-11. Disabled persons also belong to irrecoverable losses. Of these, only 200 are in the Western and African theaters of military operations. The rest is the work of SOVIET soldiers and officers .. Read Igor Pykhalov and Zemskova. This figure also includes the losses of Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, Slovaks, and other Europeans who served in the SS.
                But the losses of the 15th Don Cavalry Corps, the Crimean Tatar Legion, the Kalmyk Cavalry Corps, the RONA Kaminsky and Voskoboinik, the 14th Waffen SS Grenadier Division of Galicia, the North Caucasian Legion, the Volgo-Tatar Legion, the Azerbaijani Legion, the Armenian Legion, the Georgian Legion ( all these units were part of the SS troops), ROA Vlasov, UPA ... All these losses are AUTOMATICALLY written off as losses of the USSR. The losses of the battalions "Nachtigall" and "Roland" under the demagogy that the soldiers of these battalions were not citizens of Germany were not taken into account. And there were still battles in 1942-1943 between Bandera, Melnikov and Bulbovites (not to be confused with Belarusian Bulbash). Yes, they were citizens of Poland, but they fought on the side of Germany! All this will drip 500-600 thousand that way. These losses must be subtracted from the losses of the USSR and added to the losses of Germany. In the period 1945-1953 alone, 150 Bandera and Melnikovites were killed.
                "Yes, in the 44th the Red Army moved westward, not east. But initially, it seemed to me, it was about some kind of revenge for the 41st, no?"
                What do you dislike? In addition to Operation Bagration, there was the Jassy-Kishinev operation, and Sevastopol was liberated in four days, while the vaunted Manstein stormed it three times in 250 days, the 6th SS Panzer Army of Dietrich was defeated on Lake Balaton, the defeat of the Pomeranian group, yes and the garrison of Berlin, although it consisted of motley units, numbered about 1 soldiers and officers. Since the war was over, ALL defenders of Berlin can be written off as irretrievable losses, although some of them were captured. There was nowhere to return - no front, no army was already there.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 30 January 2021 01: 31
                  +1
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  60% of casualties return to service is a very high percentage, one of the best

                  Take, for example, the boilerless operations of the Red Army of the Reich and the Allies, and calculate the ratio of killed to wounded.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  Total losses of Germany in WWII

                  What other common ones? It was about the Belarusian offensive.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  World War II - 20 million

                  7.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  Fighting irrecoverable losses of Germany-11 200 000.

                  5. In the East, from strength 4.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  Read am Igor Pykhalov and Zemskov

                  1. Zemskov writes on the losses of the Reich? Wow.
                  2. What does it matter to me that Russian-speaking authors write about other people's losses? Let them do their own, enough for more than one century.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  These losses must be subtracted from the losses of the USSR and added to the losses of Germany. Only in the period 1945-1953, 150 Bandera and Melnikovites were killed.

                  1. And why should I record the destruction of other Soviet citizens by Soviet citizens for the Germans?
                  2. Comrade Beria, an English spy, was shot in the 53rd. His loss to the UK to write?
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  In the period 1945-1953 alone, 150 Bandera and Melnikovites were killed.

                  These statements look especially hilarious against the background of other Stalinists, who claim that Comrade. In 20 years, Stalin had a total of 600 thousand people. It's hard to be a Stalinist.
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  Since the war was over, ALL defenders of Berlin can be written off as irretrievable losses

                  You are right, the entire population of the GDR can be written off as losses. Why is there the GDR, all of Eastern Europe. But somehow it was not about this, but about who knew how to fight as of the 44th year.

                  As for Ya-K, they were mentioned earlier. Count the losses in the Balkan direction, not in a week, but in six months, from April to August. Crimea is generally a cursed place, where Manstein behaved like the last fool, but a normal person should probably not be comfortable comparing the German and Soviet losses in the Crimea.

                  However, why did I remember some normal people?
                  1. boris epstein
                    boris epstein 30 January 2021 15: 25
                    -1
                    "What does it matter to me that Russian-speaking authors write about the losses of others? Let them do theirs, enough for more than one century."
                    And what does it matter to me that the broken fascist writes about our, and their own losses? Naturally, they will diminish their losses, and exaggerate ours. "We were showered with corpses." Especially when they broke through from the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky cauldron, they went into a blizzard, drunk, splashed on fire, the losses were insane. Then you could figure out who and whom threw corpses. You just put your ears under their hot noodles.
                    "1. And why should I record the destruction of other Soviet citizens by Soviet citizens for the Germans?"
                    Having gone over to the side of the enemy, they ceased to be Russian or Soviet citizens, but became traitors. Traitors have only one way to go to the gallows. Krasnov, Shkuro, Semenov, Savinkov, Kutepov, Wrangel, Meller-Zakomelsky, Turkul, Vlasov and all his camarilla and others smaller. The Krasnodar trial of 1961, when the former Vlasovites recruited by the Americans were convicted. And then, the 70s-Polyakov, Popov, Tolkachev ...
                    "... there and Manstein behaved like the last fool ..,"
                    And not only there. Back in 1941, near Pskov, he was surrounded. Voroshilov simply did not have enough time or troops to eliminate the boiler. Manstein abandoned all military equipment and withdrew only part of the personnel. Erich von Manstein, "Lost Victories", Moscow, Veche, 2010. And he asked for the Battle of Kursk "" l. Guderian said the Russians broke the back of the Panzerwaffe in the Battle of Kursk. Heinz Guderian, "Memories of a Soldier", Moscow, Veche, 2011. Thanks to the "normal person" Erich von Manstein.
                    And not only Manstein behaved like the last fool ... ME Katukov and the workers' militia near Tula stopped Guderian and did not allow him to bypass Moscow.
                    The only difference is that Hitler ripped off shoulder straps from many other "geniuses" in the winter of 1941, and felt sorry for Manstein.
                    5. "In the East from strength 4."
                    Yep, the 6th Army of Paulus in the summer numbered 330 people, plus the Panzer Group of Gotha, plus for six months of battles, reinforcements came repeatedly, plus the Hungarian, Romanian and Italian armies smashed to smithereens. In the Battle of Stalingrad alone, the enemy's losses in killed, wounded and prisoners amounted to about a million.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 30 January 2021 16: 39
                      +2
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      What does it matter to me that the broken fascist writes about our, and even their own, losses.

                      He was not interested in the work of the Germans on Soviet losses. Soviet / Russian works give an interval from 8.7 (Krivosheev, caught on understatement) to 20 (OBD MO Memorial, caught on double-triple count). As for the Germans, then, of course, one should rely strictly on German research, no one, except the Germans, seriously worked with their archives.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Naturally, they will minimize their losses, while ours will increase

                      You should not judge others by yourself.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Especially when they broke through from the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky boiler

                      Losses of the Reich / USSR in the Dnieper-Carpathian operation 1: 4 in total, 1: 7 in killed. In favor, guess who.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Krasnov, Shkuro, Semyonov, Savinkov, Kutepov, Wrangel, Meller-Zakomelsky, Turkul, Vlasov and all his camarilla and others smaller

                      And who and when included Krasnov and especially Wrangel, 12 years as a deceased, in the losses of the USSR? Why did the hero of the defense of Moscow Vlasov and the 2nd shock army cease to be Soviet losses? Khryapte, or something, boyars, you need to calm down.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      70s-Polyakov, Popov, Tolkachev

                      The Second World War dragged on, I see.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      And not only there

                      Yes, criticism of Manstein is not so difficult to find. His reputation as the N1 Reich commander is often contested. But, naturally, Manstein does not go to any comparison with the Soviet side, where such ghouls - Oktyabrsky, Levchenko, Kuznetsov - that Mehlis seemed like a ray of light in a dark kingdom were gathered in Crimea. The commander is quite competent.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      plus the defeated Hungarian, Romanian and Italian armies. In the Battle of Stalingrad alone, enemy losses in killed, wounded and captured amounted to about a million.

                      Nobody pretends to win the laurels of Hungarians and Romanians, take it easy. On the other hand, historians know the circumstances of Italy's withdrawal from the war, I don’t know about you.
                      1. boris epstein
                        boris epstein 30 January 2021 17: 37
                        0
                        It has already reached the minus. This is a sign of defeat. On VO below there is an article: "Combat losses of Hitlerite Germany and genocide of 13 million Slavs of the USSR (1941-1945). The order of losses of Germans for me and the author of that article is approximately the same.
                        Maybe the author of that article will understand you. There are quite enough numbers. But there are no your comments under that article. Weak?
                        In Italy. Before withdrawing from the war, Italy managed to lose its army in Stalingrad.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 January 2021 21: 34
                        +2
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        It has already reached the minus

                        No idea who can read it. I don't put any cons.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        There is an article below: "Combat losses of Hitlerite Germany and genocide of 13 million Slavs of the USSR

                        I saw it, but didn't even open it. The level of this scribble is visible in the previous parts.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        managed to lose her army in Stalingrad.

                        8th Army, to be precise. This is less losses in Sicily and half the losses of Italy in Tunisia.
  • Oprichnik
    Oprichnik 19 January 2021 23: 41
    +1
    For reference: the rear autobats of the Germans were equipped by 30-40% with trucks from France throughout the war. Transport aircraft and aircraft engines were produced for almost the entire war. And the French also provided significant volumes of supplies of aluminum, steel and other metals, electrical goods and much more, not to mention food and rest in the beds of French women.
  • RMT
    RMT 18 January 2021 14: 01
    -6
    "And besides, the Europeans, like the Germans, even more than communism then hated the barbaric Slavs in general. They frankly and sincerely considered us inferior ...."
    Therefore, probably, the royal houses of Europe and the Russian emperors were related. Therefore, Russian emigrants flooded European countries after the civil war.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 18 January 2021 14: 16
      +5
      Presumably, the Europeans made an exception for the elite, nobles, and, of course, the imperial house. But the rest of the people, apparently really considered "subhuman".
      1. boris epstein
        boris epstein 19 January 2021 16: 53
        0
        Because the Romanov dynasty by 1917 was only 1/125 Russian. The long-term practice of taking wives from Holstein. And through blood ties, Nicholas II was a distant relative of the English king George V.
    2. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 18 January 2021 18: 47
      +2
      Quote: RMT
      "And besides, the Europeans, like the Germans, even more than communism then hated the barbaric Slavs in general. They frankly and sincerely considered us inferior ...."
      Therefore, probably, the royal houses of Europe and the Russian emperors were related. Therefore, Russian emigrants flooded European countries after the civil war.

      They hated communism much more than the Slavs as a nation. The author draws the wrong conclusion, in my opinion, of course.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 09: 08
        -4
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        They hated communism much more than the Slavs as a nation

        Well, the Bavarian Soviet Republic is not about the Slavs, after all.
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 09: 24
          +4
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Well, the Bavarian Soviet Republic is not about the Slavs, after all.

          And it was destroyed quite harshly, and the fascists (Nazis) treated their communists no better than the Slavs.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 11: 10
            -4
            Well, the BSR was a bit before the Nazis. And the claims, if we are talking about nationalities, were more likely to the Jews.
      2. boris epstein
        boris epstein 23 January 2021 15: 57
        +1
        Yes. There were 4,5 million German Socialists, Social Democrats and Communists in concentration camps.
    3. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 20 January 2021 00: 03
      +2
      Valery, I have worked as a translator for over 30 years. And believe me, according to my observations 80-85% of Germans, Austrians, Swiss, Swedes, having drunk 350-400 grams of vodka, suddenly began to mutter about "Russian
      g-no, Russian pigs, Russian fools ", etc. And in the morning they gazed in fright and tried to find out if they had blurted out something like that. Hatred of us sits at the genetic level. For centuries, their fellow countrymen, distant relatives rushed to us in order to plunder "subhumans and barbarians" and covered our lands with their bones. And generations of offended people have grown up in the West, who have lost their brothers-in-law, who did not bring home the loot. And for 1000 years the church has fueled this hatred with its sermons. Yes, there are sane people there. But there are so few of them that it is not worth taking into account.My relatives - tankers who fought the entire war and served in the army until the 80s, more than once regretted that they had not destroyed much there and too many enemies survived without hitting them in the gun sight or under We need to inform our people that the Germans and others not under Hitler became such non-humans. They have always been like this. The history of wars shows this unequivocally and clearly. Poles, Germans, Moravians (Czechs), Swedes who came here left after yourself a desolate desert. Therefore, we, like our great-Orthodox ancestors, must have one motto: Be friends with the wolf, but hold on to the ax !!! Well, today, you have to keep your finger on the button.
      And This former elite of tsarist Russia slept, lost, drank, lost the empire and rushed to save their skins, taking the money stolen from the people, rightly fearing the people's revenge for their flogged and flogged ancestors, who were not considered people. And what difference does it make - who killed the peasant's grandfather or great-grandfather - an alien enemy or a local landowner, an official, a nobleman?
      Real people have an ineradicable desire for justice. And they often install it in very cruel ways. But there is such a thought: there is a time to scatter stones, and there is a time to collect them. So they had to collect ...
  • Bow
    Bow 18 January 2021 18: 10
    +1
    Even in the context of "continental European"

    (and why, in fact, only European, and even only continental? Across the English Channel and beyond the Atlantic, no one made their infamous bets on Hitler, didn’t they? If we talk about who worked for the German economy then, we must not forget loans and participation of American capital in preparing Germany for war)

    So, in this context, it was convenient for Union propaganda to present the Great Patriotic War as a war of reactionary forces against "the world's first state of workers and peasants." To do this, we had to forget about the past, when we, not being "the first in the world ...", were regularly forced to save our Fatherland from European "civilized" conquerors (or Asian, slightly less civilized). This largely contributed to the erasure of a simple and truthful view of the Second World War as another battle between Russia and its primordial enemies.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 09: 06
      +1
      Quote: Bow
      (And why, in fact, only European, and even only continental? Across the Channel and beyond the Atlantic, no one made their nefarious bets on Hitler, did they?

      What period are you talking about? About the period of the Anglo-German war, in which, almost two years later, the USSR chose the side of England? Well, as he chose, the Germans chose for him.
    2. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 20 January 2021 00: 05
      0
      Dear Luke, you said very well - especially in your last phrase. Well done!!!
  • sleeve
    sleeve 18 January 2021 18: 36
    +1
    Geopolitics cannot be canceled. For now, anyway. But this process can take on particular cruelty with ideological content. Then it becomes possible to paint simple and understandable "features of social conglomerations" (peoples, nations, unions) in appropriate colors. And the meat grinder rushed ... Perhaps before the complete elimination of the problem. Historically it was so, and geographically ... Except Europe. A whole "civilizational concept" has been built up there, which does not give an opportunity to "lose" the confrontation in principle. Defeated this time? It's not us, it's, well, let's say, Napoleon or Hitler ... or whoever is smaller. But not Europe. No, no. The mother of civilization cannot fail. But it will, it will be every time, until it realizes that the feigned slogans about freedom, equality and brotherhood that she spat out, so successfully adopted by the demagogues-civilizers, this is the REAL future.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 18 January 2021 19: 04
    0
    How not to remember the Operator. "Erbins" against "Rashniki", with different nuances, at different times. There is definitely something in this. Three thousand years, after all, but the "interaction process" is still the same - it has not changed since the time of Attila :)
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 18 January 2021 19: 32
    +4
    very well placed accents about the war between the USSR and the united "common European values" of Nazism by a united Europe ... except for Yugoslavia, Albania and Greece ...
    everyone was under the banner of Hitler ... everyone strengthened the defenses of the Reich and their hands were in the blood of my relatives and compatriots ... we must always remember this ...
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 19 January 2021 07: 10
    +3
    The Great Patriotic War, it seems, was never a clash between two dictatorships or two totalitarian regimes, as ideologists and social engineers drew.
    In reality, it was a completely different geopolitical construct.

    There is such a theory, I will call it the "dominant gene theory", which puts the struggle of Russian and European, initially French, then German, now British-Jewish civilizations at the level of genes, which by means of the human body fight for their existence and dominance in nature. Recent studies of the genotype of the Slavs, and above all of the Russians, suggest that the gene for "Russianness" surpasses the genes of its neighbors in its vitality, and after two or three generations of mixed marriages, "mestizos" become Russians not only in language and outlook, but also primarily by genotype. The war is not even at the subconscious level, the war is at the level of elementary chemical and biological processes. Why do small European peoples want to be "non-Russians" or "non-Germans"? Be afraid of losing your genetic identity. If the gene cannot be "assimilated", then it must be destroyed by killing its carrier - a Russian person. The carriers of other genes now "dominant" in Europe - Germans and Anglo-Jews - feel the same latently. the fear of dissolving in Russian is so great that a European is not afraid of the risk of becoming a "non-European" - a Negro, an Indian, an Arab, but not a Russian! They are not at all afraid of Negroes, Indians, Arabs, because the gene memory gives them hope, they say, we will cope with them. But Europeans are afraid of Russians with every fiber of their soul, for a Russian will never become a European, but a European will sooner or later become a Russian.
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 19 January 2021 07: 56
    -3
    This is already a national tradition in Europe, once in a hundred years they are going to head east. In its current state, it is already not burning because economically, and so Europe rules in Russia. Why destroy something that already brings money and resources. It is enough to turn off the tap in time. And if they wish, they can quickly liquidate their emigrants - someone to the Fatherland and someone to a concentration camp, they have a lot of experience. Hence the exaggerated danger of migration flows from the EU to the Russian Federation disappears, no need.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 19 January 2021 08: 26
    0
    Relying on Europe (continental), the Nazis mobilized a quarter of the population (25%) into the army. Whereas the USSR was able to put under arms only 17% of its inhabitants.


    In fact, this is an extremely obvious fact that Germany could have had a higher overall mobilization percentage, and it gives some framework estimates of losses in view of the fact of the complete victory of the USSR, which means a significant deviation of the ratio of losses from the balance level in its favor. But the Germans pretend that they have not had any sensible data since the 45th year and tell the tales of Overmans, whose Germans allegedly lost 44 million by the summer of the 1.7th, while suffering several catastrophic defeats and being already in a strategically lost position.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 09: 01
    -1
    Is this the new pseudonym for Mr. Samsonov? His flight of thought is lacking, but the "geopolitical alignment" in historical matters is the same.
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 19 January 2021 09: 29
    -2
    Nifiga counting, one propaganda, in a fashionable style.
    And the fashion was different, and they wrote differently.

    I remember samizdat !!! long ago, when discussing "black overcoats" (like), one laid out the dynamics of the increase in the armed forces of the main countries 1935-1943. half of the questions of the dispute why and what was immediately removed
    But this was a fictional military site !! literary!!!
  • geologist
    geologist 19 January 2021 10: 10
    +1
    The Baltic States, Belarus, Ukraine, Bryansk, Kuban and Stavropol also worked for the Germans, since the people of the occupied territories had to eat, which meant they had to work. We will never know the actual losses. there are too many indirect calculations that are passed off as direct ones.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 January 2021 10: 32
    +5
    In November 1942, the British and Americans fought the French, not the Nazis. In North Africa, Eisenhower's allies defeated an army of 200 French.

    Everything is correct. Because the landing of Anglo-American forces in Africa was not carried out in the Italian colonies or in the territories occupied by the Germans - no, the Allies landed on the territory of formally neutral France, where there were no Germans born. "We came to you to fight the Germans, but the fact that you are neutrals does not bother us".
    Just imagine that tomorrow the United States decides to make war with North Korea and for this it will land troops in Vladivostok. smile
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 11: 14
      -1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      "We came to you to fight the Germans, and the fact that you are neutrals does not bother us."

      The relationship between the United States and the government in Vichy is not so linear. At first, there was some kind of mutual understanding, but by the end of 42, Fighting France became the government of France, and Pétain - so, some kind of muddy tipok.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 January 2021 11: 47
        +2
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The relationship between the United States and the government in Vichy is not so linear. At first, there was some kind of mutual understanding, but by the end of 42, Fighting France became the government of France, and Pétain - so, some kind of muddy tipok.

        EMNIP, it was even more difficult there - the muddy type Pétain and the conditionally subordinate to him North African warlord Darlan, who is considered benevolently neutral (hung between Pétain and de Gaulle, equally disliking both smile ). That is, it resists for the sake of appearance, but it won't put its head for Pétain. In principle, the assessment was correct, but with the level of temporary resistance, the Yankees missed a little.
        PMSM. military considerations played a major role. Landing in Africa has no alternative. Taking into account the level of training, it is best to land where there is no enemy, but at the same time there is a port infrastructure. This means French Africa. It makes no sense to negotiate with Vichy about neutrality during the landing - they will not only disagree, but will also pour information into Berlin. So you need to bet on other France - Darlan and de Gaulle, because the first is the owner of the landing zone, and the second is loyal to the Allies (as far as possible for a Frenchman) and also promises the support of the locals.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 19 January 2021 12: 05
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          So you need to bet on other France - Darlan and de Gaulle, because the first is the owner of the landing zone, and the second is loyal to the Allies (as far as possible for a Frenchman) and also promises local support.

          Well, it's not that simple. The Americans tried to figure out who was who, but quickly spat on this matter. Some D'Artagnans. General Giraud's demand to appoint himself commander-in-chief of the SES instead of Eisenhower went especially well.

          So we decided to come and act according to the circumstances. They were lucky with Darlan, frankly.

          The bottom line was that at that moment North Africa was not recorded as "neutrals", but as "territory of an ally under the control of collaborators." Like Czechoslovakia, for example.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 19 January 2021 15: 00
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            General Giraud's demand to appoint himself commander-in-chief of the SES instead of Eisenhower went especially well.

            Fuck feathers - I want to see it! © smile
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 20 January 2021 06: 38
              0
              Quote: Alexey RA
              I want to see it!
              The story is well known, it was filmed a couple of times.
              “You are a pathetic, insignificant person,” said Giraud, looking at his interlocutor with disgust.

              “And you are a cripple,” Eisenhower said. - Now I'm the boss.

              - Who is the boss?

              - I'm the boss. I am entrusted.

              - You?

              - To me.

              - For you?

              - Who else? Do you not?

              And the conversation turned into an area that had nothing to do with either the landing or the landing. The crooks got so excited that they even began to lightly push each other with their palms and vying to cry out: “Who are you! “Such actions usually precede a general's fight, in which opponents throw their hats on the ground, call passers-by as witnesses and smear children's tears on their bristly muzzles.
        2. DrEng527
          DrEng527 19 January 2021 16: 09
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          it is best to land where there is no enemy, but there is a port infrastructure.

          Exactly! Then the landing to Sicily, then to the South - all other strategies are of an extremely adventurous nature ... Even the landing across the Channel was a problem and required terrible resources ...
  • BISMARCK94
    BISMARCK94 19 January 2021 10: 35
    +1
    At the beginning of the article, the author began to tell how everything is politicized, not to breathe, and then the article went about politics))
  • smaug78
    smaug78 19 January 2021 11: 39
    +2
    Samsonov, Kharluzhny, Frolova ...
  • kamakama
    kamakama 19 January 2021 14: 33
    -1
    My grandfather, who had fought near Leningrad since the Finnish War, accurately described the motivation of those years. "At the front, you can die from a bullet, and in the rear, you can die of hunger. You can hide from a bullet, but you can't hide from your stomach." Do not forget that 10 years before that the Great Depression was blazing, the general economic crisis and the choice of the then average Frenchman, Belgian or Norwegian was not very big - either starve to death or go into the army, they will feed there
    About the French - the loss of 1,5 thousand out of 200 during the occupation of North Africa is less than 1%. Yes, one operation "Catapult" brought more discord between the British and French than the entire invasion. Moreover, this hitch occurred purely because of the ambitions of Dardan, Jansoul and de Gaulle, who claimed one place in command of the French troops.
    And finally. Does everyone know Renault? Well, which cars does. Check out the short biography of Louis Renault - even after his death, he was not rehabilitated. It very clearly reflects the situation that was happening then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno ,_Louis_( industrialist)
    1. kamakama
      kamakama 19 January 2021 16: 56
      0
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Операция_«Катапульта» . В 1940 году уже погибло более 1500 французов от британских снарядов и бомб, это не считая материальных потерь. Заметьте, тогда Британия не объявляло войну Вишистской Франции. Какие тогда претензии к тем же самым французам, когда к ним приперлись британцы 2 года спустя вместе с их прихвостнем де Голлем и потребовали чего-то там? Естественно, что восторга не было - кладбище погибших моряков и остовы затопленных кораблей все еще были частью пейзажа в Алжире. С такой точки зрения смотреть не пробовали? Выглядит это примерно так же, как СССР ультимативно потребовал Финляндию отдать землю, потом устроил военную провокацию, а затем неожиданно предложил повоевать против Германии, предложив в качестве главнокомандующего Куусинена? Сюрреализм
  • Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 19 January 2021 14: 50
    -1
    It turns out that to this day, not stopping to repeat about its enlightenment and civilization in comparison with barbaric and backward Russia, that same united continental Europe led by Germany on June 22, 1941 came with a war to our native land?

    And this one, as it turns out, incurable cave centuries-old Russophobia of Europe with its unbridled "values" again comes and prepares for the next "drang nach osten" and in these conditions, no our appeals to reason, exhortations, Gorbachev's ravings about universal values, are like throwing beads in front of pigs! Russia simply has no choice but to strengthen its power in response, resolutely preserve its cultural code, its values, and show exceptional pragmatism in international politics! Besides Europe, there is also the rest of the world.
    1. A_Lex
      A_Lex 20 January 2021 00: 31
      -2
      resolutely protect your cultural code, your values


      10.07.2019. Russians urged not to violate the rights of lesbians and gays
      The rights of representatives of sexual minorities should not be violated in Russia. Tatiana Moskalkova, Ombudsman for Human Rights in Russia, stated this, Interfax reports.
      “We have to accept these people, different people in society. If their rights are violated on this basis, they will be denied employment, admission to an educational institution on this basis, this is wrong, it is spelled out in the legislation, ”the Ombudsman said.
      In addition, Moskalkova noted the need to "find a balance of interests" with the leaders of the LGBT community. In her opinion, "a democratic society should be tolerant of different religions, attitudes towards art and culture."
      https://lenta.ru/news/2019/07/10/sexless/
      1. lelik613
        lelik613 20 January 2021 07: 51
        0
        What are the "leaders of the LGBT community"? Was it an organized crime group or the Politburo of the Central Committee that they formed? From-it cho, Mikhalych ...
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 19 January 2021 16: 02
    -3
    Criticizing ideological approaches, the author herself took the same position ... request
    1) "And the rest - absolutely resignedly and almost without indignation, practically the entire European continent on the eve of 1941 merged into the new empire led by Germany."
    the author forgot that the French fought, but were defeated, and one of the main reasons for this defeat is the absence of the Eastern Front ... request as for the resistance, it was not in the framework of WW1 either!
    And in most of Europe the resistance was communist request
    2) "captured 500 thousand prisoners who had citizenship of countries that did not officially declare war on the USSR and, as it were, were not at war with the Union then."
    Should we throw stones at them when about 800 citizens of the USSR fought on the side of the enemy? but there was nothing like this in WW000 ...
    3) "so mushrooms are legions and divisions of all stripes:"
    including from different classes and peoples who lived in the USSR - Cossacks, Muslim, Armenian, etc. And something similar happened during WW1 - Polish / Ukrainian legions
    Thus, the author's attempt to reduce everything to the attack of Europe on the Russians looks extremely one-sided, the fight against Bolshevism and the legacy of the Civil War in the USSR were of great importance in motivating the enemy ... request
    1. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 20 January 2021 00: 15
      0
      Dear Sergei, the author speaks about the peoples of Europe, and the issues of the legacy of painful points in OUR history are not the subject of this article.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 20 January 2021 12: 28
        0
        Quote: Oprichnik
        and the issues of the legacy of painful points in OUR history are not the subject of this article.

        this is his right, however, it is meaningless when considering the issue raised! Many Spaniards went to the Blue Division to fight communism and take revenge on the participation of our volunteers in the GV request
  • Demon
    Demon 19 January 2021 16: 58
    0
    An article about losses, but not a word about them ... only politics and the confrontation between Russia and Europe. Who fought with whom is clear, but again, where about the losses?
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 19 January 2021 17: 12
      0
      Quote: Bes
      An article about losses, but not a word about them ... only politics and the confrontation between Russia and Europe. Who fought with whom is clear, but again, where about the losses?

      In the following articles, we will analyze various sources with specific figures for the losses of the USSR and the Wehrmacht in the Great Patriotic War. And we will try to unravel the Aesopian language of dry numbers.

      To be continued ...
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 19 January 2021 18: 12
    +2
    The author rejected the ideological opposition of fascism against socialism, but in vain, because this is one of the main reasons for the war between Germany and the USSR. I will not remind about the total destruction of political workers and communists, I will give only a small but vivid example: the Nazis purposefully destroyed, namely, Soviet Jews, while European Jews enjoyed certain freedoms and benefits.

    In conclusion. I was surprised by the "bloodthirstiness" of some forum participants. When I was little, after watching a film about the war, I asked my father: "Why did the Nazis commit atrocities, but our soldiers are not in Germany?" To which my father simply answered: "That's why they called us the Red Army, not the fascist."
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 20 January 2021 12: 30
      -2
      Quote: Alexander Green
      we were called the Red Army, not the fascist. "

      Exactly! However, we judge them by ourselves, but in vain ... The same Germans were much easier to reassure the Czechs at 68 and without reflection ...
  • Nick rex
    Nick rex 20 January 2021 12: 38
    -3
    ".. the whole Europe worked for Germany ..", gyyy.
    And the whole world worked for the union + the USSR itself consisted of 15 countries, in fact. Then what? What do we compare? Losses? Gains? Achievements?
    All this historical headwash is intended solely for one purpose, to justify the total backwardness and poverty of modern Russia with victories in the Mesozoic era.
    Look around you, bot farm and use your brains a little. If you have them, of course, hehe
    1. Petrol cutter
      Petrol cutter 24 January 2021 20: 05
      0
      What specifically did you comrade do this week to move the country forward?
      For example, I installed the main deck on the "Comet120M" area 36 frame / transom on Saturday. I must say successfully.
      What are your successes / achievements?
  • Cossack 471
    Cossack 471 20 January 2021 15: 46
    0
    We have an absolutely flawed position in relation to the conquerors. When we manage to defeat them and enter their territory. we begin to "fight to preserve their material heritage." that is, we try not to destroy anything once again. not to kill the civilian population at the cost of heavy losses of our army But in 1944-45 the Soviet army could simply demolish the cities of the defenders and then move on. And they would have a memory of that. how and what does an attempt to attack Russia smell like? Genetic memory
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 24 January 2021 19: 06
    0
    RF is high time to stop being a whipping girl.
    This is already starting to get on your nerves.
    Calling outright enemies as some kind of partners! ..
    This is beyond ...
    The PRC is bending its line. At least it's time to take an example from them. Have survived! ...
    If you have lost your mind.
    What I absolutely do not believe ...
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  • obratov
    obratov 4 February 2021 14: 08
    0
    Well ... I must admit that the USSR had not the worst allies! In addition to the USA and England, Mongolia, for example, fed us! For some reason, the author decided to modestly keep silent about this.
    The war was really "multifaceted", really everyone (I'm talking about peoples) wants to look beautiful!
    Let's remember about the fate of Polish Jews and about the "resistance" in the same Czech Republic ... But let's add to the 50 thousand Spaniards (and the USSR took part in the civil war in Spain quite recently) the army of General Vlasov, Cossacks and other citizens USSR, who also fought on the side of the same fascists! It may be worth remembering the history of Finland's opposition to the USSR (we somehow did not take into account in this article that in 39 they chopped off 20% of the territory from the Finns, and they began bombing Helsinki even before the Finns officially entered the war, just when the question of this was decided in their parliament)?
    These are such ... sketches! But if it’s for the truth, then let’s first deal with our "great past" to the end!
    And then we all somehow stand proudly alone in white, in front of all the white light ... Why lie?
  • Anatoly Mikhailenko 2
    Anatoly Mikhailenko 2 11 February 2021 19: 39
    0
    Water, water, water everywhere. What is there to fence about this Europe? The occupied countries were enslaved, what the Germans told them, they did. It was the same in our occupied territories. Why put them together with Germany? The allies of Germany are Romania, Hungary, Italy, Finland, Slovakia, Bulgaria. Sweden is neutral. Well, she supplied Germany with iron ore throughout the war, so we also supplied Germany with ore, oil and much more until June 22, when England and France fought with her. All occupiers use the industrial potential, and we have also used it since 1944, when we entered Europe. Stop pouring water, balabolka. Stalin should have thought when he tried to stir up conflict in Europe, trying to come to the ashes of other people's battles and rule the ball there. It didn't work out. Hitler turned out to be more cunning, but he also did not calculate everything.
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota 17 February 2021 19: 50
    0
    seems to be like Krivoshein 1 all-European to one and a third of the Red Army soldier!
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota 17 February 2021 19: 58
    0
    Irina Frolova? Oh my god! woman and military statistics are two incompatible things!
  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 23 February 2021 18: 20
    0
    500 thousand. And these are only prisoners. But not everyone is so lucky. Obviously killed were no less. Plus those scum that managed to survive.
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