Military Review

Are we in trouble again? Someone chops "Ash" and drowns "Poseidons"

280
We are all already accustomed to the fact that at the end of the year we usually start an assault. It is necessary to close contracts, agreements, supplies, and so on. Well, money ...


Therefore, at the end of the year, the Ministry of Defense always pleases us with beautiful reports on the topic of how much new equipment has got into the troops. This is a good tradition, but, alas, not always.


A source: vpk-news.ru

At the end of last and the hardest year, information came that three submarines, including the Poseidon carrier the fleet not only have they not been handed over, it is also not entirely clear how far "to the right" the deadlines will go.

Unpleasant?

Not that word. Even skeptics (such as the author) always had the confidence that with what, and with nuclear submarines, we have complete order. We could, we can and will be able to build.

And then this is ...

It became known that three boats at once, "Novosibirsk" and "Kazan" of the Yasen-M project and a carrier of special vehicles "Belgorod" will be accepted in 2021. Perhaps they will. Moreover, it's scary to even think about Kazan, the boat was launched in 2017, three years have passed, it's already 2021, and the boat, sorry, the boat is still in an incomprehensible state.

If these were less significant warships, it would be half the trouble. And so ...

In general, it is worth figuring out what is wrong.

"Ash-M" - the main tactical underwater weapon our fleet. This ship was born not so much in torment, but the birth of the project 855 "Ash", which cannot be called easy, began in more than distant 1977.


Photo: Sdelanounas.ru

And with "Ash" then, too, it was not just that. "Ash" was planned to replace the boats of projects 949 and 949A. And there was also Project 957 "Kedr", which was supposed to replace the boats of Project 971 "Shchuka-B".

At that time, we generally had a lot of boats of different types. Unlike the US Navy, where everything was unified.

But an unpleasant thing happened: it didn’t work with “Cedar”.

In general, the "Kedr" was planned as a fairly simple and massive attack boat to replace the nuclear submarines of projects 971 and even older 671. And the point is not even the financial problems that began in the 80s in the USSR, the fact is that there was a need for technical re-equipment enterprises of the military-industrial complex for these boats.

In general, they could not.

And then the "golden" idea came to the heads of the naval commanders: to universalize the "Ash" and entrust them with the tasks of the "Kedrov". Once the "Cedars" were too tough for the factories.

No sooner said than done, it was announced that "Ash" will replace ALL boats, except for strategic cruisers.

But then the complete collapse of the USSR came and something utterly out of the ordinary began. "Ash" was developed for the infrastructure of the Soviet Union, "Severodvinsk" was laid in 1993, when the Soviet system had not yet collapsed, but they began to adapt it already in Russian realities.

The result was a very unsuccessful attempt. Even on the stocks it became clear that Severodvinsk, which was supposed to combine Ash and Kedr, was really overcomplicated. Very much.

And as expected, the ship had just a huge number of problems and shortcomings. That is why, with the still unfinished Yasen, work began on the Yasenem-M project 855M. So to say, correcting mistakes?

No. Project 855M, despite the similarity of numbers, is a completely different ship. The compartments inside are located differently, the body itself is smaller, there are fewer torpedo tubes and they are installed at different angles, but there are more missile launchers. Different composition of electronic equipment.

In fact - Project 855M is a completely different boat, strikingly different from Project 855.


And the ill-fated Kazan is the first ship of the project with all the ensuing consequences. And constant delays with Kazan and further with Novosibirsk are probably quite normal.

How normal is it to modify the imperfections and eliminate the shortcomings for a long time after the ships seem to have already entered service.

But today we have problems with missile boats, but what about the most complex nuclear submarines? Never mind.

There is no information about what is wrong with Ash-M. This is logical. There are a lot of rumors circulating around the network, which there is no point in repeating, but sometimes quite reasonable thoughts slip through.

For example, it was announced that the boats will have to be armed with anti-torpedoes "Last". The “Lasta” complex has been created since 1989, the team of E. A. Kurskiy worked, the same team that worked on the “Packet-NK” complex and worked successfully.

However, there is no information about the shooting and testing of the "Fins". One can only guess where the problem is, in the anti-torpedoes or in the boat's systems that prevent the use of anti-torpedoes. Most likely, the matter is in the boats, because anti-torpedoes were successfully used back in the 90s, and "Packet-NK" was actually brought to mass production.

But again, I emphasize, guesswork. Which are based primarily on the few reports that have been published in reliable sources.

Ash-M is smaller than Ash. Moreover, it is considerably less, 9 meters in length. There are fewer torpedo tubes, 8 instead of 10, and there are more launchers for missiles, just 10 instead of 8. 40 "Zircons" instead of 32 for "Ash", and if we talk about "Calibers", then they can be placed 50.

There is information that some new sonar, much larger in size, was installed on the Yasen-M. This is indirectly confirmed by a decrease in the number of torpedo tubes and from the installation at an angle to the axis of the ship. Something rather big was actually placed there.

Plus an increase in the automation of the entire ship. "Ash" has a crew of 90 people. The Yasene-M has a crew of only 64 people. What does this mean? That there are more computers, more sensors, more ACS. In a smaller boat.

It turns out that the main enemy of Ash-M is simply a huge lack of space filled with vital systems and mechanisms.

But this is normal for any submarine, from the earliest to the most modern. There was never enough room. But in our case, the compactness of systems creates problems with their debugging, debugging and repair.

Remember how you changed a Chinese diesel engine that "suddenly" went out of order at one of the "Karakurt"? I had to cut the side to remove the engine.

It is quite possible that all the problems of Kazan (in particular) and Novosibirsk were caused precisely by these factors, namely the difficulty in eliminating all the shortcomings and imperfections. They can crookedly assemble it from us, but how can we fix it all ... Well, it's not for nothing that Kazan spent three years at the plant more time than on tests at sea?

The question arises: how sad is everything? In fact, yesterday it seemed that the construction of nuclear submarines is something so unshakable. And the "Ash" together with the "Boreas" will become, as intended, our underwater shield.


Source: Russian Ministry of Defense

But we will postpone the answer to this question for now and go to the third participant in our review.

K-329 "Belgorod".


The host of the Poseidons was also not accepted. There is no information on it at all, since the boat is very highly classified. In fact, it does not belong to the Navy, but to the Main Directorate of Deep Sea Research of the Ministry of Defense. That is, the head of the General Staff of the Russian Federation himself commands the boat.

This already says a lot, but says almost nothing about the boat.

But there is already a lot of information about the "Belgorod", this boat took too long to build. Initially, the boat was built according to project 949A, as an Antey-class SSGN, that is, a boat armed with cruise missiles from Granit to Caliber.

The "Belgorod" was laid down in 1992, in the month of June. And they "built" up until 1994, when the K-329 was decommissioned and mothballed. And they remembered about it only in 2000, when the Kursk died. The boat was reactivated and construction began.

In 2006 the construction was stopped again.

In 2009, they began to consider a restructuring project for the 995M project, that is, "Yasen-M". But in 2012, they re-mortgaged an unknown project 09852.

As a result, "Belgorod" was supposed to go into operation in 2020, but it did not happen. What could be the problem?

It's worth starting with the hardware. The boat has no missile weapons now, and the head does not hurt. The boat was lengthened, behind the wheelhouse they made a compartment for the "Harpsichord", an unmanned underwater vehicle, the carrier of which was the boat.

In the lower part of the boat, a lock and grips were made for a deep-water station of the AS-31 type, now notorious as Losharik.

There is nothing supernatural, except that the "Harpsichord 2R-PM" is not yet, and "Losharik" is no longer there.

What remains is Poseidon, which is also carried by Belgorod.

With "Poseidon" is also quiet and grace. At least, no news of successful tests was carried out, despite a decent number of announcements and promises from various persons of the Ministry of Defense, as information was not reported. There were announcements and advances, there were loud statements, but there were no reports.

And some conclusions can also be drawn from this.

"Harpsichord" and "Losharik" cannot be called new devices. These are all well-known underwater systems. Unlike Poseidon, around which questions really swarm.

How is this rather large apparatus, twice the size of any ballistic missile, stored?
How is the radiation safety of a nuclear reactor on board a boat ensured?
How is the warhead of this super torpedo positioned and stored?
How is the Poseidon reactor serviced and launched?
What are the requirements for the "torpedo tube" itself?

There may be three times more questions, just what's the point? "Poseidon" is a new weapon, structurally very complex and unsettled. Accordingly, there simply cannot but be overlaps and errors that can delay the commissioning of Belgorod. Unfortunately.

And here optimism melts before our very eyes, because today we have problems with well-developed technologies. What can we say about the new underwater vehicle? Everything is logical.

But there is also one more thought that haunts. And she, too, has the right to life.

Belgorod has been under construction for almost 30 years. More precisely, with all the delays and "shifts to the right" of the timeframe, it will actually approach the thirty-year line. The construction took place far from the best years for the country's industry. And how it was built in the 90s is probably not worth explaining.

It is highly likely that Belgorod started having problems not with the newest Poseidon, but with the old parts and mechanisms of the boat, which were created before and immediately after the conservation.

And here we run into the "ash" rake. That is, the boat is actually built, but the failures of physically obsolete parts and mechanisms begin, which are from 20 to 30 years old. And here there will be no other way out but again to apply the tactics of "Trishka's caftan" and try to replace everything that is needed by any means.

This is even more unpleasant than the failure of Poseidon and everything connected with it.

In any case, 2020 has shown that we have problems, there are even in the construction of submarines. And this does not inspire optimism, since the majority really believed that at least we had order with the submarine fleet. Alas, it turns out that not quite.

The assumptions that have been made here are, of course, based on certain speculations. But the fact that three nuclear submarines "hovered" indefinitely and will not get to the fleet in any case only indicates that not everything is as good as we would like.
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  1. Far B
    Far B 15 January 2021 04: 48
    +36
    Even skeptics (such as the author) always had the confidence that with what, and with nuclear submarines, we have complete order. We could, we can and we will be able to build
    Duc, we could do a lot of things once. A few years ago, there was a belief that we can and will be able to go into space. And now they have fallen back to third place in terms of launches, and no one makes much noise about this. They don't even remember about the domestic aircraft industry. Stable Putinism - it is, yes. What next industry are we going to grope for?
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Far B
        Far B 15 January 2021 05: 20
        +8
        There is an elder in the garden, and in Kiev there is an uncle. Does someone call you to donate something? What - the country ran out of money? so in a box of more than 11 percent of GDP. In the presence of the sovereign's will, Ash is more than enough for everything, and it will also remain for devouring.
        If everyone is fighting for the survival of the country and, first of all, those in power and the oligarchs with their children, then I am ready
        Consonant.
        Better to let the Ash disappear than I will exchange jeans with sausage

        I have the option of moving to another country
        Disagreeing.
        If you are not satisfied with the current situation, it must be changed, and not dumped into the bushes (over the hillock) in order to keep the back warm.
        1. bad
          bad 15 January 2021 08: 37
          +21
          Quote: Dalny V
          Disagreeing.

          I think he's just a provocateur.
        2. Crowe
          Crowe 15 January 2021 08: 53
          +38
          Quote: Dalny V
          In the presence of the sovereign's will, Ash is more than enough for everything, and it will also remain for devouring.

          So it’s so, but where to get it, this will. Money both went for the cordon, and goes away, there is almost nothing left on the Ash tree stump. And what should the fleet do, all personnel throw off (like text messages to children, Let's send everyone to self-financing - children, the fleet and everyone else, what load from the budget will drop immediately.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 17 January 2021 16: 45
            +1
            Quote: Crowe
            Let's send everyone to self-financing - children, the fleet and everyone else

            And with service and standard weapons? Then maybe something sensible will work out ..
        3. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 15 January 2021 13: 20
          +9
          Quote: Far In
          There is an elder in the garden, and in Kiev there is an uncle. Does someone call you to donate something? What - the country ran out of money? so in a box of more than 11 percent of GDP. In the presence of the sovereign's will, Ash is more than enough for everything, and it will also remain for devouring.
          If everyone is fighting for the survival of the country and, first of all, those in power and the oligarchs with their children, then I am ready
          Consonant.
          Better to let the Ash disappear than I will exchange jeans with sausage

          I have the option of moving to another country
          Disagreeing.
          If you are not satisfied with the current situation, it must be changed, and not dumped into the bushes (over the hillock) in order to keep the back warm.

          And no one will print the jug. It is needed for a "rainy day", to support banks and friends. The system works with a creak, so the rockets do not take off and boats do not surrender.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 19 February 2021 13: 30
            +1
            every time when it is necessary to print the money-box, it suddenly turns out that everything has already been plundered.
            There is no money box. Long ago everything was stolen.
        4. sleeve
          sleeve 15 January 2021 14: 55
          -1
          11 percent? And the rest?
      2. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 15 January 2021 05: 45
        +1
        Quote: Cool but not Igor
        In such a situation, everyone is for himself and I choose the availability of opportunities sacrificing the survival of the country. in the current situation she does not appreciate me and I have the option of moving to another country.

        You better go vote!
      3. oracul
        oracul 15 January 2021 06: 53
        +11
        What is your value for the country's survival? As a consumer of jeans and sausage? Where did this 10% come from, is it not from being? Those who wanted unlimited freedom from everything - love for the Motherland, morality, conscience, shame, the need to study and work, create a family - voted for them themselves.
      4. mark1
        mark1 15 January 2021 07: 35
        -1
        Quote: Cool but not Igor
        Better to let Ash disappear than I will change jeans with sausage. I'm not ready to sacrifice my life for my homeland

        Yes, so that you with .... emigrated to America!
        1. sleeve
          sleeve 15 January 2021 14: 56
          +7
          Isn't it possible with sausage and Ash? What is the extreme?
          1. mark1
            mark1 15 January 2021 15: 10
            +5
            Are you contacting me? Personally, I am for the Motherland and for Ash, "and for all the beautiful women", and for jeans with sausage ... in this priority order, but better all together.
            1. sleeve
              sleeve 16 January 2021 07: 45
              +2
              Where to apply for membership? I'm in...
          2. evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
            evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 15 January 2021 22: 57
            +3
            Yes you can, sleeve. But first, in the conservatory, something needs to be changed .. A serious state must be returned to Russia. This is something that has been effectively pumping wealth out of the country of Russia for three decades, but not the state by and large. Department ,, Rusland ,, TNK ,, Global Investment ,,. Something like that.
            There is no management STRUCTURE - there are no real officials. The most important official is absent - the emperor (Russia is already 300 years as an empire, how it became ... if SHO), i.e. there is no full-fledged HEAD OF STATE. “The manager of the department” is one thing, and the Master of the Russian Land is another. There is no STATE, therefore, the true SENSE of the existence of millions of people on the territory of the country of Russia is absent. The department has its own goals and objectives, a serious state has its own. Who will close the stupid, unnecessary, harmful for Russia ,, department ,,? After all, there is nothing funny in the fact that the employees of the department are degrading. The management of TNK ,, it suits ... They can easily, close ,, the department, re-profile ,,, ,, downsize ,, completely change ,, the management of the department ...
            Is it okay for us (you)?
            ... Until there is ORDER, there will be no sense. What fleet, what army, what aviation, if there is no SENSE? Protect, not sparing the belly, Russian-speaking mad hucksters, recklessly ,, milking ,, the country of Russia? Who needs it? And this will not happen
            1. sleeve
              sleeve 16 January 2021 15: 05
              0
              If you glance at your comment, then its meaning is somewhat illusive. Are you just unhappy with the current state of affairs? I do not understand what "department" we are talking about. In this situation, I only see that the state has just "pulled out" from these warm embraces of globalism, not wanting to dissolve and realizing what price will have to be paid for gullibility. However, the number of tentacles of this warm and understandable "swamp" gives rise to admiration for the success of the project of our "sworn partners" and hatred of powerlessness and hopelessness to see at least some result in the foreseeable future. I would not put it all together. If everything were, as some commentators claim here, about the fact that the Russian Federation is controlled by the world behind the scenes, then it would not make sense to fence the current vegetable garden with confrontations, etc. The 90s are about to reflect the colonialist victory. Further, until the resistance. More with two internal troubles: imbued with love for "non-Russian", since the people are so, but want crispy rolls and lace; well, and of its own production by the ossification of thinking and the principle of "surfacing" in the upper layers of certain substances. Oh yes, here's the trouble, so trouble because "Russia can only be destroyed by Russia itself." Well, we can only observe and draw conclusions. The country is tired of paying someone else's blood for ephemeral ideals for centuries of history ... Well, and to participate in the proposed system. Elections, public discussion, fulfillment of the social contract and obligations, private protection of one's rights.
            2. vlad106
              vlad106 20 January 2021 13: 13
              0
              "... Someone chops the Ash trees and drowns the Poseidons" ...


              We must revive SMERSH. With his rights ...
      5. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 15 January 2021 11: 20
        +12
        If everyone is fighting for the survival of the country, first of all the powers that be and the oligarchs with their children, then I am ready to sacrifice my life, but I am not ready to be their pawn in the chess game.
        Gold words, colleague. Patriotism, they educate, not by example, but by propaganda. And I'm not ready to fight for yachts and fornication of oligarchs, and I won't let children in. I will drive you into the taiga, but I won't let you in. Even for the state it is not insulting, tk. it is sold every day and not by some spies, but by those who are obliged by position, who care about its welfare and prosperity.
        1. Bashkirkhan
          Bashkirkhan 15 January 2021 12: 43
          -11%
          Quote: AKuzenka
          And I'm not ready to fight for yachts and fornication of oligarchs, and I won't let children in. I will drive you into the taiga, but I won't let you in.

          Not a bad option. Then, if anything, you will attach children to the occupation administration. And the concentration camps for the local population will need to be protected. And if they don't want to work, then they will let them in for soap and lampshades. For the extraction of resources of millions of 15 aborigines will be enough.
          1. Akuzenka
            Akuzenka 15 January 2021 12: 56
            +7
            Then, if anything, you will attach children to the occupation administration. And the concentration camps for the local population will need to be protected.
            Well, don't transfer your shortcomings to others. If you want, go to fight for yachts, fornication and children of oligarchs. I will be fine in the taiga. They will come to the taiga, I will fight for my own people. Destroy? For sure. The main thing is not for them. In general, if there is a war with NATO, the country will be surrendered, simply and shamelessly, as in 1991. But they will not be saved. There will be genocide, first by the hands of traitors, and then theirs, to the wall. So don't dream of becoming a Gauleiter.
          2. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 15 January 2021 13: 23
            +9
            Quote: Bashkirkhan
            Quote: AKuzenka
            And I'm not ready to fight for yachts and fornication of oligarchs, and I won't let children in. I will drive you into the taiga, but I won't let you in.

            Not a bad option. Then, if anything, you will attach children to the occupation administration. And the concentration camps for the local population will need to be protected. And if they don't want to work, then they will let them in for soap and lampshades. For the extraction of resources of millions of 15 aborigines will be enough.

            Here's an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting? Don't you think that what's wrong in the Danish kingdom?
            1. Bashkirkhan
              Bashkirkhan 15 January 2021 13: 26
              +3
              Quote: Pilat2009
              why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting
              This is a rhetorical question.
              "The West tried to bring Russia to its knees, but it continued to lie."
              1. Tiksi-3
                Tiksi-3 16 January 2021 09: 12
                -1
                Quote: Bashkirkhan
                Here is an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting?

                there, the ruling elite, understands that it is necessary to negotiate with the people !, but we do not
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 17 January 2021 18: 50
                  -1
                  Quote: Tiksi-3
                  there, the ruling elite understands that it is necessary to negotiate with the people!

                  dooo wassat understands! in France won as he understands! in Germany fucking understands. in Belgium, too, has already begun to understand in full. your idols, in the USA, understands best of all! even the cemetery was closed wassat
            2. Wertgan
              Wertgan 15 January 2021 16: 09
              +5
              Isn't it clear? Because we sit on 1/6 of the land with all its bowels ... And we protect this part from others. If we stop doing this, she will be captured. Still simple
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 19: 18
                +5
                Quote: WertGan
                we sit on 1/6 of the land


                1/7. This is even taking into account the territory unsuitable for life.
                1. 2 Level Advisor
                  2 Level Advisor 15 January 2021 20: 10
                  +3
                  generally already for 1/9 years 30t
              2. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan 15 January 2021 19: 33
                +8
                No, it's not that simple. The profit from the sale of our subsoil goes into the pockets of those close to the authorities, and the people of FIG. Then why should the people protect these bowels. And one more thing: the sons of any Peskovys, etc. will they wander around Londans and Paris, and my son will serve in the army? No, this will not happen.
                1. Akuzenka
                  Akuzenka 16 January 2021 10: 26
                  -2
                  The profit from the sale of our subsoil goes into the pockets of those close to the authorities, and the people of FIG.
                  Um, where else? China, North Korea, Cuba, do not give examples.
                2. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 17 January 2021 18: 52
                  -1
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  No, it's not that simple. The profit from the sale of our subsoil goes into the pockets of those close to the authorities, and the people of FIG.

                  opa belay and in the USSR, then everything went to the state budget, and the people of FIG?
                  1. Akuzenka
                    Akuzenka 19 January 2021 11: 55
                    0
                    oops belay and in the USSR it means everything went to the state budget, and the people of FIG?
                    Where is the USSR now? Sold and Committed. It's about now.
              3. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 15 January 2021 22: 13
                -4
                Quote: WertGan
                Isn't it clear? Because we sit on 1/6 of the land with all its bowels ... And we protect this part from others. If we stop doing this, she will be captured. Still simple

                Should we take over Australia? Or Africa?
                1. Akuzenka
                  Akuzenka 16 January 2021 18: 24
                  -1
                  Should we take over Australia? Or Africa?
                  Yes, this is very democratic. Get started.
              4. Sergey Sfiedu
                Sergey Sfiedu 16 January 2021 12: 46
                +3
                "If we stop doing this, it will be captured" - so it was captured almost thirty years ago.
              5. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 16 January 2021 15: 44
                -3
                Quote: WertGan
                Isn't it clear? Because we sit on 1/6 of the land with all its bowels ... And we protect this part from others. If we stop doing this, she will be captured. Still simple

                And why does no one seize Kazakhstan or Georgia or the Baltics? Even Ukraine and then no one except Russia is terrorizing. Why Iraq, Libya and Yugoslavia were defeated, but Egypt, Iran, Nicaragua, Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam not?
                1. Akuzenka
                  Akuzenka 16 January 2021 18: 24
                  0
                  Why doesn't the RF do this? Doesn't it invade foreign countries, does it not provoke conflicts? Does not bomb peaceful neighborhoods, does not kill peacekeepers, does not shoot down passenger planes. Um, only "the beacon of democracy, but its satellites are doing this. Strange, really.
              6. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 17 January 2021 15: 24
                +2
                Quote: WertGan
                Isn't it clear? Because we sit on 1/6 of the land with all its bowels ... And we protect this part from others. If we stop doing this, she will be captured. Still simple

                Everything is simple for you ...

                And only because. that you don't know anything ...

                For the next 50-70 years, no one will particularly need our bowels.
                Simply because of the extremely heavy and, accordingly, extremely expensive retrieval.
                Ours built BAM, the USSR was 20 years old and could not. Russia has been building for another 20 years. Continues.
                And not for the work of the railway. The passage of trains and goods along the BAM is negligible.
                $ 40 billion was spent on this - for what?
                so that at least some subsoil in Siberia and the Far East could be extracted ...
                But still it turns out very badly.
                There are 10-20 trains running along BAM per day.

                Nobody needs such subsoil - they are too expensive.
                Cheaper in other parts of the world, all the same is easy to buy.

                Across the sea, a half-calf, but a ruble ferry. This is just about our bowels.


                .
            3. Akuzenka
              Akuzenka 16 January 2021 10: 24
              -1
              Here's an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting? Don't you think that what's wrong in the Danish kingdom?
              It's simple. We are different and live in a huge rich territory (like Indians in America or Negroes in Africa). We do not have a large population, but we are close-knit (relatively). To obtain wealth, we must be destroyed, subdued, turned into slaves. strength (underline as required). Roads are built (more or less), where it lies, it is known. There is little to do - to master this "ownerless" territory. That's all. All the rest is a matter of special services, propaganda and ideology of those who want to "master" our country. We and Europeans have different approaches to development. We include the conquered territories, together with the peoples that live there, into the composition of the country. And we treat them as equals, they are not, their method is genocide and destruction. And before that, it is necessary to divide and rule, which they successfully do. For interest, read what the English, Germans, French wrote about us from the 16th century to the 30s of the 20th century. There are all sorts of ethnographers with geographers, there the thought sticks out so much that all this must be taken into our own hands. And these are scientists!
              1. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 16 January 2021 15: 36
                -3
                Quote: AKuzenka
                Here's an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting? Don't you think that what's wrong in the Danish kingdom?
                It's simple. We are different and live in a huge rich territory (like Indians in America or Negroes in Africa). We do not have a large population, but we are close-knit (relatively). To obtain wealth, we must be destroyed, subdued, turned into slaves. strength (underline as required). Roads are built (more or less), where it lies, it is known. There is little to do - to master this "ownerless" territory. That's all. All the rest is a matter of special services, propaganda and ideology of those who want to "master" our country. We and Europeans have different approaches to development. We include the conquered territories, together with the peoples that live there, into the composition of the country. And we treat them as equals, they are not, their method is genocide and destruction. And before that, it is necessary to divide and rule, which they successfully do. For interest, read what the English, Germans, French wrote about us from the 16th century to the 30s of the 20th century. There are all sorts of ethnographers with geographers, there the thought sticks out so much that all this must be taken into our own hands. And these are scientists!

                For the sake of interest, ask how many nationalities were forcibly resettled only in tsarist Russia. And then, the very word "conquered" already speaks for itself. There were no "good" Russians, these are the same conquerors
                1. Akuzenka
                  Akuzenka 16 January 2021 18: 19
                  +2
                  For the sake of interest, ask how many nationalities were forcibly resettled only in tsarist Russia. And then, the very word "conquered" already speaks for itself. There were no "good" Russians, these are the same conquerors
                  For the sake of interest, ask how many nationalities were DESTROYED by good Europeans. And how many were destroyed by evil Russians! Oh, amazing, really! RI did not destroy a single nationality, although it could. If RI was called a prison of peoples, then your beloved European civilization can rightfully be called a cemetery of peoples.
                  1. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 17 January 2021 15: 14
                    +2
                    Quote: AKuzenka
                    For the sake of interest, ask how many nationalities were destroyed by the good Europeans. And how many were destroyed by evil Russians! Oh, amazing, really!

                    It's not about who destroyed more or less, but about the fact that everyone's stigma is in the gun.
                    1. Akuzenka
                      Akuzenka 19 January 2021 11: 52
                      0
                      It's not about who destroyed more or less, but about the fact that everyone's stigma is in the gun.
                      Gee, everyone! But since born and raised here, then my sympathies are on the side of RI. As an Englishman said about the genocide in India: "My country is not right, but this is my country."
      6. venik
        venik 15 January 2021 20: 11
        +5
        Quote: Cool but not Igor
        It is better to let Ash disappear than I will change jeans with sausage.

        ========
        Simple awesome logics! And most importantly - "an excuse for such selfishness perfectly grounded:
        Quote: Cool but not Igor
        I'm not ready to sacrifice my life for the sake of my homeland when 10% of the population owns 83% of the country's entire wealth. In such a situation, everyone is for himself and I choose the availability of opportunities sacrificing the country's survival

        One of my acquaintances, in the early 80s, served as a "jacket", but at the same time was a good specialist, besides, he knew a couple of foreign languages ​​well. Once he was summoned to his superiors and told that a business trip was to be made to a certain "point" that is not yet "hot", but "not today, so tomorrow" will become very "hot." He could refuse (yes, that happened!), But immediately agreed, although he didn't really need it: (he didn't give a damn about a military career, well, you won’t earn a lot of money there, especially since there and in a calm the time the service was "no sugar"). To the question: "Are you not afraid?" answered honestly: "I'm afraid." And to the question So why do you agree? "Answered:" I am an OFFICER in the third generation. My grandfather went through three wars: World War I, Civil and Patriotic. My father fought in the Patriotic War ... So my turn has come. "
        From a "point" that soon became very "hot", he returned a few months later ... With a slight fragmentation and a rather serious concussion (with some "gap in the biography"), the consequences of which were felt for quite a long time ..... But for all subsequent life - I NEVER regretted that I did not refuse then! But he could!
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 20: 34
          0
          A beautiful story. I wonder how much truth is in it.
          1. venik
            venik 15 January 2021 21: 32
            +4
            Quote: Eye of the Crying
            A beautiful story. I wonder how much truth is in it.

            ==========
            Alas! ALL - true.
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 21: 36
              -1
              Why "alas"? A beautiful story, pretentious. And how do you know how true it is - or did it happen to you?
              1. venik
                venik 15 January 2021 21: 37
                +2
                Quote: Eye of the Crying
                And how do you know how true she is

                ======
                And what do you think?
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 21: 42
                  0
                  I just don’t know. Therefore, I asked (and you, which is typical, did not answer).
                  1. venik
                    venik 15 January 2021 21: 59
                    +3
                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    I just don’t know. Therefore, I asked (and you, which is typical, did not answer).

                    ========
                    I did not answer, because if you are a SMART person, then you yourself will understand everything! And about the "pathos" .... You shouldn't be so! There was no "pathos". It's just LIFE! The way it is. This is how we lived and how we live (who else remained).
                    And about "Igor, who is not Cool" - for some reason it seems that he is much better than trying to seem! And his "opus" is simply show off... At least - I really want to hope so!
                    1. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 22: 00
                      0
                      Quote: venik
                      if you are a SMART person, then you yourself will understand everything!


                      An intelligent person will not blindly believe beautiful fairy tales. Even though sometimes such tales are reality.

                      Quote: venik
                      And about the "pathos" .... You shouldn't be so! There was no "pathos".


                      There is pathos here. By the way, "pathos" is not a bad word or an insult.
                      1. venik
                        venik 15 January 2021 22: 04
                        +3
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        By the way, "pathos" is not a bad word or an insult.

                        ========
                        I understand that. Just somehow "in life" it turned out to think about it. There was not enough time. They served - "where they will send", worked when necessary - for days (and this is not "hyperbole"). Simply it was necessary!
                    2. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 15 January 2021 22: 31
                      +4
                      Quote: venik
                      And about "Igor, who is not Cool" - for some reason it seems that he is much better than trying to seem!

                      You see, we all love our Motherland, but everything is different, and we all wish our Motherland good and prosperity. Only everyone sees their own path of development and goal.
                      1. venik
                        venik 15 January 2021 22: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        we all love our Motherland, but everything is different. And we all wish our Motherland good and prosperity. Only everyone sees their own path of development and goal.

                        =======
                        It is impossible not to agree with this! And the main question: WHAT is the Motherland for us? Jeans, sausage and toilet paper or something else?
                      2. Malyuta
                        Malyuta 15 January 2021 23: 05
                        +3
                        Quote: venik
                        It is impossible not to agree with this! And the main question: WHAT is jeans for us, Motherland? Jeans, sausage and toilet paper, or something else?

                        I am very sorry, but the Motherland and the current government are incompatible concepts.
                        But jeans, gum, sausage have nothing to do with it.
                      3. venik
                        venik 15 January 2021 23: 22
                        +3
                        Quote: Malyuta
                        I am very sorry, but the Motherland and the current government are incompatible concepts.

                        =========
                        You know, but there was a period when both my friends and I, if I may say so, “lost our orientation” - Yes, this is the very period when my (sorry! "America and Europe" .... WAS! But fortunately - IT'S ENDED! You can agree with this, you can - no. But it - IT WAS!
                        I DON'T LIKE much of what the "holding power" do! From the word - CATEGORALLY! But the fact that My Country is not allowed to "bend" and humiliate, as it was in the period of "Gorbachevism" and "Yeltsinism" - already deserves respect! At least - elementary respect!
                        -----
                        Quote: Malyuta
                        But jeans, gum, sausage have nothing to do with it.

                        ========
                        And here you are, and WRONG! Moreover, you are greatly mistaken! Yes! A country is first of all a PEOPLE! But if for person and citizen - The country is, first of all, "jeans, sausage and toilet paper" - well, it means he is NOT a citizen and his place is THERE, where he will be provided with all this! As the saying goes: "a tablecloth - the road!
                      4. Malyuta
                        Malyuta 15 January 2021 23: 36
                        +5
                        Quote: venik
                        I DON'T LIKE much of what the "holding power" do! From the word - CATEGORALLY! But the fact that My Country is not allowed to "bend" and humiliate, as it was in the period of "Gorbachevism" and "Yeltsinism" - already deserves respect! At least - elementary respect!

                        You are sorry, but your words sound too pretentious, which will be at odds with reality. How can you combine the type of patriotic rhetoric for internal use with the export of trillions of dollars abroad, the impoverishment of the population and its extinction with some kind of respect?
                      5. venik
                        venik 16 January 2021 00: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: Malyuta
                        You're sorry, but your words sound too pretentious,

                        =========
                        Sorry, but to understand whether it is "pathos" or not, you have to go through THIS! And you, judging by the comments, are enough young and this tragedy "lost generation"- it will be difficult for you to understand! More precisely - it is practically impossible! Alas!
                      6. venik
                        venik 16 January 2021 10: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: Malyuta
                        How can you combine the type of patriotic rhetoric for internal use with the export of trillions of dollars abroad, the impoverishment of the population and its extinction with some kind of respect?

                        ===========
                        Difficult question. But my grandfather fought in the First World War. And he fought - not bad! The question is - WHAT did he fight for?
                    3. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 16 January 2021 07: 35
                      -3
                      Quote: venik
                      The country is, first of all, "jeans, sausage and toilet paper" - well, it means he is NOT a citizen and his place is THERE

                      That is, a real Russian should wipe himself with a newspaper, wear a quilted jacket and eat dumplings.
                    4. venik
                      venik 16 January 2021 10: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: Pilat2009
                      That is, a real Russian should wipe himself with a newspaper, wear a quilted jacket and eat dumplings.

                      =====
                      1. Well, if really dark - then you can not wipe at all - everything is one from the "dark" will stink!
                      2. Quilted jacket is classroom clothes (if there is no rain, you can't imagine the best in cold weather!). At my dacha Yes!
                      3. Dumplings are generally my FAVORITE dish! Wife has already "zadolbal" requests to cook dumplings! She is their notably trains!
                      hi
  • Akuzenka
    Akuzenka 16 January 2021 10: 30
    +3
    Simply amazing logic! And most importantly - "the excuse for such self-seeking is perfectly justified:
    If your story is true, then you yourself are confusing God's gift with scrambled eggs! Serving the people and serving capital are completely different things. Fighting for the country when there is confidence that your children will live no worse and get education and opportunities is one thing. And to serve for money, I know that if they kill (God forbid), the state will not take care of the children, something else.
    1. didra
      didra 17 January 2021 15: 43
      -4
      This is approximately how Shkuro and Vlasov reasoned. Only the Bolsheviks did not let them live. It would seem that Malchish-Kibalchish has long since closed the topic of jam and sausage.
  • lis-ik
    lis-ik 15 January 2021 06: 24
    +3
    Everything is natural, stable and unbreakable. Under this power, it could not be otherwise.
  • antivirus
    antivirus 15 January 2021 09: 40
    -19%
    Aircraft carrier supporters are to blame.
    they are slowly concentrating money for the construction of 10 units of 100 VI.
    everything else is on the side.
    except for the old oil seals and nuts - maybe they are pulling rubber - has the START-X trade started? and China-India, and nuclear submarines, and hypersound, new and old Iskanders, aviation strategists, special forces will limit the number ("Kadyrov's buggy in a gas pipe 1.5 m"), Vanguard itself, and what carrier ?, Burevesnik.
    everything has a price.

    If they are already rolling out "good offers" then why rush to solve technical problems?
  • Disant
    Disant 15 January 2021 16: 32
    -7
    A few years ago, there was a certainty that we can and will be able to enter space. And now they have fallen back to third place in terms of launches, and no one makes much noise about this.

    only fans of launches make this noise.
    here you just answer yourself - why do you need to compare the number of launches with the past epic numbers in ancient times, when now technology has stepped forward a long time ago and instead of ten launches of the same military satellite, which lives 3-5 months, we launch one that lives 3 -5 years.
    if you say about commercial launches that we supposedly missed some opportunities there, then all space program clerks from all countries will laugh loudly in your face - there is simply NO commercial launch market, there are NO commercial companies, practically everything that was launched, tied to the military.
    We can and will be able to - only in our iron a nuclear tug is already being built for interplanetary flights (it will take about ten years to roll it back and forth, or, for example, hang a 200 kW power supply into the Moon's orbit - how is that for you? Yes, you can walk around like this , which is not enough and the Death Star will not seem !!) - all the others, excuse me, smoke bamboo. And they will smoke. Although, of course, if you are the owner of a machine for printing certain banknotes, then we would also not mind asking you for 200 billion green in order to launch astronauts to the Moon (as the Americans are doing now) in order to stick a flag, declare a change and roll back again 50 years ago.
    About the new sites under construction for the Soyuz missiles (which, like military sausages, will start - in a chain, one after the other during the lunch break) and Angara (money allocated for the years ahead) for new systems at the new cosmodrome X, I will not even write - I'm afraid to go nuts.
    .
    They don't even remember the domestic aircraft industry anymore.

    Well, you at least turn on the TV or google it - PD-14, IL-114, MS-21, I don't even write about military programs.
    1. Akuzenka
      Akuzenka 19 January 2021 12: 02
      0
      Well, you at least turn on the TV or google it - PD-14, IL-114, MS-21, I don't even write about military programs.
      Oh, you are a naive youth! Everything that you wrote has been talked about for 20 years. And that our "lunar tractor" is not on the Moon, no carriers, all dimensions and varieties (even models). And Google will tell you that in the Russian Federation, in cities, in winter, bears walk around with balalaikas and take away vodka from passers-by.
      1. Disant
        Disant 21 January 2021 15: 39
        -1
        AKuzenka, about everything I wrote, they talked not for 20 years, but more - they began to assemble the IL-114 back in the USSR, PD-14 - legs from the same times.
        what is naivety ?? PD-14 and MS-21 - assembled and installed, the plane has already started flights, is certified, orders are dark. IL-114 - the same story. Do you want to refute me or clarify the quantitative production plan for years?
      2. Disant
        Disant 21 January 2021 15: 54
        -1
        And that our "lunar tractor" on the moon is not, no carriers, all dimensions and varieties (even models).

        but the moon tractor and other fantasies do not need to be hung on me - these are your inventions.
        Read again what I emphasized, speaking about the Moon - you can run new lunar rovers there at random for another three hundred years every year - but they don't pick anything worthwhile from the periodic table, they won't find voids for building bases. You need sounding to a depth, and for this you need a powerful power source (WHICH IS ONLY! THE RUSSIANS, IN ONLY SLAPPY PLANS FROM THE USED US - 2040 !! - THE BEGINNING OF FLIGHT TESTS of what they just saw and want to do), which also can and should be used for military purposes.
        .
        what media of all sizes do you need ???!? we have everything you need !! Angara!
        THERE IS NOTHING TO START, do you understand? refute me
        .
        or have you doubted the sausage and its capacities during your lunch break at the appointed time?
  • Volder
    Volder 16 January 2021 01: 25
    -3
    Quote: Dalny V
    Stable Putinism - it is, yes.
    It began with Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Don't you remember? The consequences of the collapse of the country are quite expected and natural. There was also a period of stagnation in the USSR. Better stagnation and stability than destructive revolutions and democratic disintegration of the country.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 16 January 2021 15: 50
      +1
      Quote: Volder
      Quote: Dalny V
      Stable Putinism - it is, yes.
      It began with Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Don't you remember? The consequences of the collapse of the country are quite expected and natural. There was also a period of stagnation in the USSR. Better stagnation and stability than destructive revolutions and democratic disintegration of the country.

      Stagnation is so terrible that the country is lagging behind technically and intellectually.
      1. Volder
        Volder 1 February 2021 11: 48
        0
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Stagnation is so terrible that the country is lagging behind technically and intellectually.
        And what should be done to avoid stagnation? Give Crimea? Or change Putin to Navalny? We live in an era of market economy. Therefore, as the market decides, so it will be. And we still live in the era of sanctions, and not only we, but also China, Iran, Cuba, Iraq, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Yemen, etc.
  • Maz
    Maz 16 January 2021 10: 02
    -3
    again Roma skomorokhov burns with a verb everything in one heap about everything and nothing expert
    1. sniperino
      sniperino 16 January 2021 10: 16
      -1
      Quote: Maz
      burns with a verb
      good Theme for the annual nomination of writers, such as a shnobel
      iksperd zhjot verbs nipadecki
  • Stepan S
    Stepan S 23 January 2021 18: 12
    -1
    And you wanted to lead in all sectors after the collapse of the country and the subsequent collapse of cooperation and industry? It's good that we have reached this level and continue to climb up, and not grope for the bottom, as you want to see.
  • Brylevsky
    Brylevsky 15 January 2021 04: 56
    +29
    In any case, the year 2020 showed that we have problems, even in the construction of submarines.

    And the situation, unfortunately, will only get worse from year to year. Because old, experienced and competent production workers are leaving life, and young people are in no hurry to go to their places. I saw a similar picture on Zvezda several years ago. I saw very few young boys there, mostly men in their deep years ... To whom then to transfer experience and knowledge? Each profession has its own secrets, unwritten rules that you cannot learn or feel at the school desk ... And so, old people die, taking their knowledge and experience with them to the grave, and there they have not had time to pass it on to the next generation. And without experience, how much can you work? The question is rhetorical ...
    1. CTABEP
      CTABEP 15 January 2021 07: 26
      +11
      Well, right, young people need to pay normal money.
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 15 January 2021 05: 13
    +8
    The people and the authorities are not the same thing, because what the average man understands comes to power much slower than for the longest animal on the planet. As Comrade Stalin says, cadres are our everything! So, the cadres that are in power, and the workers, PRODUCING some, say, equipment are people at least from different planets. Therefore, further will not only be worse than now, further will be more disgusting and disgusting than today. The authorities do not need the enterprise - they "privatize", bankrupt, and sell, and the hard workers on the street! Then they wonder why, with the invested funds, there is no result at the exit. Because there is no one and nowhere to do what is really needed. Not what happened. So, for these frames, work frames are an empty phrase.
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 15 January 2021 06: 42
      +1
      Also say thank you for not working American painter Casey J. Fury

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)
      1. victor50
        victor50 15 January 2021 08: 45
        +7
        Quote: Nagan
        Also say thank you that American painter Casey Fury is not working for you

        And thank God! And without him there is enough emergency!
      2. Deck
        Deck 15 January 2021 09: 23
        +7
        We ourselves can export such in large quantities to the states:
        https://ria.ru/20080607/109500208.html
        too lazy to look for more. Admiralty Shipyards (icebreaker Chernomyrdin) and Baltic Shipyard recently.
        So be spiteful about another matter.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 15 January 2021 10: 08
          +1
          Quote: Deck
          So be spiteful about another matter.
          I am by no means spiteful. But in Baltiysk they either cooked or smoked, in general, the truth is somewhere between carelessness and slovenliness. And this American proletarian set fire to oily rags in the living compartment of the submarine, because his girlfriend called and allegedly hinted that she was finally going to give, and the supervisor (supposedly a foreman or a foreman - it doesn't matter) did not give time off. Well, he decided that in the event of a fire, the workers would be dismissed early, and he would have time to fulfill his wishes. Those. deliberate sabotage is evident. The Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine USS Miami (SSN-755) was decommissioned, and this smart guy was given 17 years and was charged with a debt of $ 440M, which he would not earn in 100 lives.
          1. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 15 January 2021 11: 30
            +8
            [quote = Nagant] [quote = Deck] Ie deliberate sabotage is evident. The Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine USS Miami (SSN-755) was written off, and this smart guy was given 17 years and was charged with a debt of $ 440M, which he would not earn in 100 lives. [/ Quote]

            And how is sabotage different from sloppiness?
            If both are conscious ... and criminal.
            The fires in Tomsk and Orel are proof of this.
          2. SID
            SID 16 February 2021 10: 32
            0
            a friend called and allegedly hinted that she was finally going to give

            Well so how - gave?
      3. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 15 January 2021 14: 41
        +7
        Quote: Nagan
        Also say thank you for not working American painter Casey J. Fury

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)

        Very funny. There was an article "welders against the 6th fleet", and a month later the ship caught fire at Sevmash
  • ares1988
    ares1988 15 January 2021 05: 23
    +18
    And why was "Belgorod" illustrated with the 941st project?
    1. Aleksandr1971
      Aleksandr1971 15 January 2021 08: 28
      +12
      I will assume that this may be the tricks of the site's editors. However, let the author answer why the photo shows "Shark" instead of "Anthea".
    2. Crowe
      Crowe 15 January 2021 08: 42
      +17
      Quote: ares1988
      why was "Belgorod" illustrated with the 941st project?

      Quote: Aleksandr1971
      why the photo shows "Shark" instead of "Anthea".

      So that no one would guess. We confuse the enemy spies in every possible way, but we need to understand the entire depth of our depths.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 January 2021 05: 29
    0
    I've already read it! If I'm not mistaken last week in the news! Why repeat?
  • Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 15 January 2021 06: 08
    +14
    At that time, we generally had a lot of boats of different types. Unlike the US Navy, where everything was unified

    It is not true

    the misconception comes from the fact that ours use a new designation for each change

    The title of the series never changes in the USA. Only people close to the Navy know what differences are hidden behind each postscript "block" and "phase"

    Los Angeles submarine series, with t. Soviet traditions, these are four different projects. And each had colossal differences from its predecessors

    Three seawulfs built - two projects. The Jimmy Carter is 30 meters longer than the other two!

    Ps. In history, no ship has been 100% similar to its sisterships.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 January 2021 10: 32
      +5
      Quote: Santa Fe
      Los Angeles submarine series, with t. Soviet traditions, these are four different projects. And each had colossal differences from its predecessors

      So it is the same in the USSR - because 667A differed from 667BDR as "humped" from "chisel". smile
      If we count according to one method, then in the USSR as many as 7 SSBN projects reached the series.
      And for the SSNS, the number of serial projects went off scale: only on the base project 671 there were four SSNS projects. But 671 was not the only one: it got to the point that in the 80s three completely different projects of the ISSN were built at the same time. Not lettered "subprojects" - modifications of the base, but three independent projects - 671RTMK, 945, 971.
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 15 January 2021 11: 16
        +1
        671RTMK is the final development of the 671st family of SSNS, replaced by 971. These are boats of different generations that served at the same time

        945 titanium barracuda and condor, did not go into production.

        The Yankees had a similar experiment, two Los Angeles made of NY-100 steel
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 January 2021 13: 48
          +2
          Quote: Santa Fe
          671RTMK is the final development of the 671st family of SSNS, replaced by 971.

          Then Blocks of "Elks" are the development of one family. smile
          Quote: Santa Fe
          These are boats of different generations that served at the same time

          945 titanium barracuda and condor, did not go into production.

          Project 671RTM and RTM (K) surrendered to the fleet from 1977 to 1992.
          Project 971 surrendered to the fleet from 1984 to 2009
          Project 945 surrendered to the Navy from 1984 to 1993. 4 nuclear submarines - this is already a series.
          That is, in the 80s, the USSR in parallel built and put into operation three different "in the base" of the SSAPL project. Not different projects of the same family, but three fundamentally different projects. And in total there were four projects under construction and commissioned at the same time, taking into account the division of Project 671 into RTM and RTM (K) (since we consider the "loseblocks" to be different projects).
    2. Charik
      Charik 15 January 2021 13: 08
      0
      are not three Elk projects
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 15 January 2021 17: 16
        0
        Base
        Improved Elk
        Improved Elk with UVP
        Albany and Topeka
    3. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 13: 54
      -1
      Quote: Santa Fe
      Los Angeles submarine series, with t. Soviet traditions, these are four different projects. And each had colossal differences from its predecessors


      Are they really "colossal"? Do they have different reactors?

      Quote: Santa Fe
      The Jimmy Carter boat is 30 meters longer than the other two!


      Not "turned out", but was retrofitted with special reconnaissance equipment, which required an increase in size.
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 15 January 2021 17: 24
        +4
        Do they have different reactors?

        We have the same type of reactor on all submarines. Does this mean that 971, Ash and Borey are of the same type?
        Are they really "colossal"?




        Which one is Los Angeles? (the answer is both)
        The layout, bius, weapons, reactor core - everything has changed
        Not "turned out", but was retrofitted with special reconnaissance equipment, which required an increase in size.

        on 30 meters

        New project, for some reason recorded as SeaWolfe
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 17: 39
          -2
          How is it that the reactors are the same, but the reactor cores are different? smile

          Quote: Santa Fe
          New project, for some reason recorded as SeaWolfe


          And what's new in it?
          1. Santa Fe
            Santa Fe 15 January 2021 18: 24
            +2
            How is it that the reactors are the same, but the reactor cores are different?

            Los Angeles class submarines starting with USS Providence (SSN-719) have been built with a 2 MW D165W core, as opposed to the older 150 MW cores installed on older boats.
            what's new in it?

            All
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 18: 27
              -6
              Quote: Santa Fe

              Los Angeles class submarines starting with USS Providence (SSN-719) were built with 2 MW D165W core


              That is, they have new reactors.

              Quote: Santa Fe
              what is new in it?

              All


              Great answer.
              1. Santa Fe
                Santa Fe 15 January 2021 18: 46
                +2
                That is, they have new reactors.

                No, they did not change the designation of the reactor

                The Yankees call this change the Performance Machinery Program Phase I.
                laughing
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 19: 00
                  -3
                  Quote: Santa Fe
                  That is, they have new reactors.

                  No, I did not change the designation of the reactor


                  I didn't ask about the designation.
                  1. Santa Fe
                    Santa Fe 15 January 2021 23: 33
                    +1
                    Another core, more heat dissipation, probably required changes in the cooling and control circuits

                    More power means more consumers

                    How important are such changes in the reactor?

                    Their designation S6G did not change if it happened here - perhaps they would call it a new type of reactor
                  2. sniperino
                    sniperino 16 January 2021 10: 35
                    0
                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    I didn't ask about the designation
                    You cry so much that it is not clear which way your eye is looking.
                    1. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 13
                      +1
                      Petorsyan, re-login.
                      1. sniperino
                        sniperino 16 January 2021 11: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        Petorsyan
                        Is this an acquaintance of yours, or do you have agraphia?
  • Operator
    Operator 15 January 2021 06: 28
    -7
    Those. the author doesn’t know a damn about the progress of Poseilon’s development, but at the end of the year he decided to issue a page of an article about nothing to the mountain - as it says there: the annual plan for articles must be closed, and money isn’t superfluous bully
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 15 January 2021 09: 46
      +1
      I got 8 bans for "galley slave" -citation, etc. VO (logo) appeared in the Zen feed. etc . popularity price. from photo artists switched to paparazzi. be proud - "VO columnist - it sounds proud"
    2. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 13: 55
      -3
      Quote: Operator
      Oh, at the end of the year he decided to issue a page of the article to the mountain


      I understand everything, but today is the beginning of the year, not the end. It's time for you to enter the work rhythm.
      1. Operator
        Operator 15 January 2021 14: 21
        +3
        This is not the author's fault - he submitted his article to the editor on December 31, 2020 laughing
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 14: 26
          -3
          Or December 30, 2020 is the last day you were conscious. Therefore, it seems to you that today is December 31st.
          1. Operator
            Operator 15 January 2021 15: 42
            0
            Apparently, you have not yet regained consciousness, like most networked hamsters.
  • FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 15 January 2021 07: 04
    +16
    Eh, Vovkin cartoons. They raised projects that in the 80s were sent to the archive as unpromising. Petrels, Poseidons, Zircons ...
    We just forgot that "the armor of our ancestors is not always up to us." Russia cannot pull what they could not or did not want in the USSR 30-35 years ago. The intestine is thin. No matter how funny (or bitter), but the personnel, scientific, production potential of the country 35 years ago is head and shoulders above Russia in 2021. Degradation in everything and everywhere.
    1. Disant
      Disant 15 January 2021 15: 54
      -3
      They raised projects that were sent to the archive as unpromising in the 80s. Petrels, Poseidons, Zircons ...
      Russia cannot pull what they could not or did not want in the USSR 30-35 years ago. The intestine is thin. No matter how funny (or bitter), but the personnel, scientific, production potential of the country 35 years ago is head and shoulders above Russia in 2021. Degradation in everything and everywhere.

      what is wrong?
      the plan is drawn up.
      money is allocated for 10 years in advance,
      petrels, poseidons, and zircons lie on the stocks during the manufacturing process. Finishing is in progress.
      Explain what is hopeless, on what you base your conclusion.
      Explain what degradation is expressed in at least in some particular way - give a comparison in numbers or something, since you have "in everything and everywhere."
      1. Fan-fan
        Fan-fan 15 January 2021 19: 48
        0
        give a comparison in numbers
        Please: these have been in power for 20 years, and what has been done, what weapons have been supplied to the troops in sufficient quantities during this time? And compare these 20 years with any 20 years of Soviet power. They can't make a simple diesel engine for the fleet - a shame.
        1. Disant
          Disant 15 January 2021 20: 46
          +5
          Fan-Fan, these are common phrases!
          Should I roll out the military construction plan for 2013-2020 here? Repost articles from VO with reports on the ongoing rearmament?
          20 years is a whole era, everything has changed radically. The weapons that were relevant and new yesterday do not fully meet the new requirements of the time today. Everything is being revised - both the Doctrine and plans for military development, radically new weapons systems are replacing everything that was - I don't even know how to compare. Therefore, I asked about the comparison.
          And was the task at all set in the new history of Russia (apart from the past decade) - to fulfill and overfulfill? where did this lead the Soviet Union? They were afraid of us, and then we threw tanks and airplanes in an open field in shelves for cloudless storage - would you like to add hulls there for the country's budget, or even worse - for the country's deficit budget - on debt?
          First of all, it is necessary to ensure the balanced development of all components of the armed forces - through the competent distribution of forces and RESOURCES.

          Yes, there are many populist promises, but these promises, at least in vain, do not tear apart the military budget, and, most likely, most of it is an element of information warfare.
          .
          What to compare now - the number of armored hulls or missiles in service then and now? This is wrong, because the capabilities of a single weapon then and now are quite different, and against the background of the development of space systems, electronics, the production of new alloys, most likely new methods of detecting and transferring data in various environments, this is fundamentally wrong.
          .
          and these are already a little different
        2. Disant
          Disant 15 January 2021 21: 31
          +1
          Simple diesel for the fleet cannot be made

          Kolomensky Zavod made and is making diesel engines for the fleet. You are probably confused and complaining about the lack of gas turbines, the production of which remains in Ukraine.
          As far as I understand, the USSR and the new Russia have always lagged behind in engine building, the imported navy has already begun to switch to electric motors.
          if you write about the insufficient power and reliability of domestic diesel engines for the fleet, then I will most likely agree with you
          a revolution that took place much later was the emergence of sufficiently powerful and compact integrated electric power plants, in which both diesel generators and turbines generate electricity for propulsion electric motors, and the latter drive the ship. So, on the new destroyer Type 45 of the British Navy, it is a diesel-electric installation that is used as a system that ensures economic progress. Gas turbines with generators are used to reach the high-speed mode of movement, and the maximum power of the two propulsion electric motors is 20 Megawatts each. This is an innovative system, and, apparently, the future belongs to such power plants, since they do not have strict requirements for the placement of engines relative to the shaft lines - diesel generators and turbine generators can be installed in any suitable place.
        3. Disant
          Disant 17 January 2021 11: 21
          -2
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          They can't make a simple diesel engine for the fleet - a shame

          oh, and here is our Mercury on electric traction))))) icebreaker Ilya Muromets - there))
          and the turbines have already gone))))
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sit_TvWTL0
          look carefully
      2. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 15 January 2021 20: 15
        +5
        you know .. you can bring a year, or you can take 21 years, and yes, the process in both cases is .. we are talking about the delay of specific terms ..
      3. FRoman1984
        FRoman1984 16 January 2021 07: 21
        0
        Quote: Disant
        They raised projects that were sent to the archive as unpromising in the 80s. Petrels, Poseidons, Zircons ...
        Russia cannot pull what they could not or did not want in the USSR 30-35 years ago. The intestine is thin. No matter how funny (or bitter), but the personnel, scientific, production potential of the country 35 years ago is head and shoulders above Russia in 2021. Degradation in everything and everywhere.

        what is wrong?
        the plan is drawn up.
        money is allocated for 10 years in advance,
        petrels, poseidons, and zircons lie on the stocks during the manufacturing process. Finishing is in progress.
        Explain what is hopeless, on what you base your conclusion.
        Explain what degradation is expressed in at least in some particular way - give a comparison in numbers or something, since you have "in everything and everywhere."

        Okay, here are the numbers, the article "Fleet heading for Tsushima." About "Ash" as well.

        At the same time (according to data from open sources) GPV-2020 provided for the delivery of the Navy by the end of 2020:

        - 8 strategic AICR (in reality 4)
        - 8 PLA project 885 (M) (in reality, 1 head)
        - 20 diesel submarines (in reality 9 is the old trash of the 636 series, VNEU could not do that)
        - 35 corvettes (in reality 7)
        - 14 frigates, incl. 6 projects 11356 and 9 projects 22350, (in reality 5)
        - 6 MRK project 21630 "Buyan-M", (in reality, taking into account the "Karakurt" 12)
        - 6 BDK project 11711 (in reality 2)

        AND? Here are the figures showing that we have forgotten how to build a serious fleet of the far sea zone. Isn't this collapse? "Severodvinsk" was handed over (the only one of the 8 planned) only because it differs little from 971 projects in terms of filling. The boat 885M is already MUCH more complicated and there have been problems with it since 2017 since launching.

        About petrels, poseidons. These projects so far only claim human lives (an explosion at the test site with the death of people, with the release of radiation, a fire on Losharik with a large number of dead. Thank God, Poseidon has not yet / has exploded anywhere else).
        Jogging in aviation? It's not better there, to put it mildly.
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 16 January 2021 11: 03
          -7
          Quote: FRoman1984
          Here are the figures showing that we have forgotten how to build a serious fleet of the far sea zone.
          These are figures showing that after 2010, when the President signed GPV-2020, the West's sanctions war against Russia began, and this program is being implemented in completely different economic conditions. Crimea, again, made adjustments. Did not notice?
          1. FRoman1984
            FRoman1984 17 January 2021 03: 53
            +1
            Quote: sniperino
            Quote: FRoman1984
            Here are the figures showing that we have forgotten how to build a serious fleet of the far sea zone.
            These are figures showing that after 2010, when the President signed GPV-2020, the West's sanctions war against Russia began, and this program is being implemented in completely different economic conditions. Crimea, again, made adjustments. Did not notice?

            They always look for excuses in the form of external factors ... a very convenient way to justify their own problems in all external influences ... How did the sanctions prevent the commissioning of at least one 885M boat out of eight planned ???
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 17 January 2021 07: 11
              -4
              Quote: FRoman1984
              How did the sanctions prevent the delivery of at least one 885M boat out of the eight planned ???

              The question is, how do economic sanctions prevent the construction of very expensive submarines? Even 3 in one: as if complete bewilderment. Although, the answer seems to be on the surface. Perhaps there are deeper reasons, some miscalculations, for example, at the stage of a technical project, etc., but we have to wait with this, they will not rattle about them on TV today, and I have no insider information. Ask at the General Staff. But you want to express your confidence that it is Putin and the oligarchs who are putting sticks in the wheels of the military-industrial complex (what other problems are their own), therefore you are asking the wrong questions, NIW.
              1. sniperino
                sniperino 17 January 2021 07: 40
                -1
                PS. About "at least one". There is one, by the way, rejoice even for a second.
                1. FRoman1984
                  FRoman1984 21 January 2021 07: 05
                  0
                  Quote: sniperino
                  PS. About "at least one". There is one, by the way, rejoice even for a second.

                  They haven't passed it yet. This year it will be 4 years since it was built. And the Navy is right in not accepting a damp boat.
                  I'm bitter. It is bitter because all these ghouls, led by the tsar, unfinished, are building palaces for themselves with state money, with 21 million living below the poverty line. It's a shame that having tens of billions of dollars in their assets, they cannot steal in any way.
                  To solve the problems of the Army and the Navy, you have to pay money so that young people go to enterprises, and not become bloggers - “content producers” who uselessly exist in their virtual reality.
                  And nothing changes, it only gets worse and worse every year. Some kind of degradation of the population is underway. Those who received their education during the Soviet era are gradually leaving, and emptiness comes to replace them.
              2. FRoman1984
                FRoman1984 18 January 2021 07: 05
                0
                Quote: sniperino
                Quote: FRoman1984
                How did the sanctions prevent the delivery of at least one 885M boat out of the eight planned ???

                The question is, how do economic sanctions prevent the construction of very expensive submarines? Even 3 in one: as if complete bewilderment. Although, the answer seems to be on the surface. Perhaps there are deeper reasons, some miscalculations, for example, at the stage of a technical project, etc., but we have to wait with this, they will not rattle about them on TV today, and I have no insider information. Ask at the General Staff. But you want to express your confidence that it is Putin and the oligarchs who are putting sticks in the wheels of the military-industrial complex (what other problems are their own), therefore you are asking the wrong questions, NIW.

                No, not Putin and his thieves-friends-colleagues. He doesn't care.
                There are no people. There is no influx of young people into the defense industry. Non-monetary, unpopular activity among young people. All that we have now is inertia. Inertia of the late 80s. And everything gets worse and worse every year. Therefore, 1 boat out of 8 is built in 10 years.
                1. clerk
                  clerk 19 January 2021 22: 23
                  +1
                  Can you compare the effect of inertial force in naval shipbuilding in the late 80s in the 1990s and 2010s - has this effect increased or decreased over time?
                  1. FRoman1984
                    FRoman1984 20 January 2021 06: 16
                    0
                    Quote: clerk
                    Can you compare the effect of inertial force in naval shipbuilding in the late 80s in the 1990s and 2010s - has this effect increased or decreased over time?

                    Comparison of the force of inertia ....
                    it is necessary to look at the input of warships in quantity and, most importantly, their total displacement, by year. So that the current pelvis of the MRK type and corvettes cannot be compared with the Eagles.
                    1. clerk
                      clerk 20 January 2021 07: 26
                      +1
                      Well, you started talking about the inertial force of the 80s. So compare the strength of this inertia in the 90s and 2010s. You can compare by displacement. You can in general, you can - separately NK and separately - PL. Such a comparison can be a clear demonstration of the truth or falsity of your thesis about the inertia of the 80s.
                      1. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 21 January 2021 07: 44
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        Well, you started talking about the inertial force of the 80s. So compare the strength of this inertia in the 90s and 2010s. You can compare by displacement. You can in general, you can - separately NK and separately - PL. Such a comparison can be a clear demonstration of the truth or falsity of your thesis about the inertia of the 80s.

                        Here is a table for entering the PL by years (link below).
                        1985 introduced 10 boats, 8 of them - nuclear submarines.
                        How much was introduced in 2020? 1 nuclear submarine and 1 diesel.
                        How many were introduced in 2019? Only one diesel-electric submarine.
                        It's hard to find information on tonnage, but everything is clear. There is even no inertia here - "get off, the train does not go further, please push the cars."
                        In the 90s, the ships laid down in the late 80s were still being completed, the same 971 boats, 945s, Petra, Chebanenko. Now some pelvis in the form of corvettes with non-working air defense (article on 20385 here on the site) and MRK. Bright spot - 2 frigates 22350 in 15 years.
                        http://русская-сила.рф/others/itog3.shtml
                      2. clerk
                        clerk 21 January 2021 10: 22
                        0
                        1985 for comparison does not roll - this is a terry Soviet period. So how many submarines and NKs from the corvette and above were completed and built in the 90s and how many in the 2010s?
                      3. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 21 January 2021 18: 19
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        1985 for comparison does not roll - this is a terry Soviet period. So how many submarines and NKs from the corvette and above were completed and built in the 90s and how many in the 2010s?

                        In the sense of "not rolling"? I just wrote about the inertia of Soviet shipbuilding above in the text. What, everything under construction now is a pale shadow of the past. The ships 20380, 22800, 21631 are not the Fleet. None of the Oken ships were laid down (PP and Chebanenko were laid down in the late 80s), ships of the far sea zone were accepted - 2 frigates 22350. That's the whole "Fleet".
                      4. clerk
                        clerk 21 January 2021 19: 32
                        0
                        You get away from the question: So how many submarines and NKs from the corvette and above were completed and built in the 90s and how many in the 2010s?
                      5. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 23 January 2021 08: 57
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        You get away from the question: So how many submarines and NKs from the corvette and above were completed and built in the 90s and how many in the 2010s?

                        No, I'm not leaving. You twist. I was just talking about one thing, and you are asking about another.
                        In the 1990s (after 26.12.1991/8/971), 5 boats of Project 949 and XNUMX boats of Project XNUMX were built / completed / delivered on the nuclear submarine.
                        In the 2010s, 4 Project 955 boats and 1 Project 855 boat were built in Russia.
                        According to NK in the 1990s (after 26.12.1991/1/1142), 1 Project 1155 cruiser, 3 Project 956 BOD and XNUMX Project XNUMX destroyers were built / completed / launched.
                        According to NK in the 2010s, 2 frigates 22350, 2 BDK 11711 and 3 patrol boats 11356 were built / handed over (they were assigned to the "frigate").
                        We don't count other troughs such as corvettes and mrk.

                        Even according to these data, it is clear that for the past 20 years everyone who is at the trough now has been enriching themselves, building houses in Gelendzhik, and not dealing with the Army and the Navy.
                      6. clerk
                        clerk 23 January 2021 13: 02
                        0
                        After 1991, in the 90s, 3 submarines of project 971, 5 of project 949, 1 Cr of project 1144 (after launching in the USSR) and 2 EM of project 956 (after launching in the USSR) were completed / built. Against 5 nuclear submarines, 5 frigates and 2 large landing ships from scratch. Well, the question is - where is the inertia of the 80s, and where is the renewal of what was lost in the 90s and the beginning of the new? Well, to compare who stole and who was engaged in the army and navy, compare with France, England, Japan, and even with the United States over the past 10 years.
                      7. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 23 January 2021 20: 13
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        After 1991, in the 90s, 3 submarines of project 971, 5 of project 949, 1 Cr of project 1144 (after launching in the USSR) and 2 EM of project 956 (after launching in the USSR) were completed / built. Against 5 nuclear submarines, 5 frigates and 2 large landing ships from scratch. Well, the question is - where is the inertia of the 80s, and where is the renewal of what was lost in the 90s and the beginning of the new? Well, to compare who stole and who was engaged in the army and navy, compare with France, England, Japan, and even with the United States over the past 10 years.

                        1. You forgot to mention 1155.1 in the 90s list.
                        2. 971 boats were launched (handed over) more than 3. This is 100%.
                        3. The boats 955 and 885 were not built from scratch, but used the backlog from the unfinished boats 971. They wrote about it. Therefore, for example, the head 885 Severodvinsk differs greatly from the 885A.
                        4. Two frigates, 3 converted patrol boats and 2 large landing ships - that's about nothing in 20 years. It's just a shame. Not a single ship of the first rank.
                        5. So let's compare the USA and Japan, for example, see what they have introduced and what we are in 20 years. Please provide the numbers. Apparently, they also stole there and therefore did not introduce anything. It is also interesting to see China.
                      8. clerk
                        clerk 23 January 2021 22: 48
                        0
                        1.) "Panteleev" entered service on 19.12.1991. Or who was later? 2) Vicky gives 3 after 31.12.1991/3/90 4) Compared to the fact that most of those completed in the 11356s were launched back in the USSR, this is a trifle. 5) Project 2 is a full-fledged frigate. The results were 20 frigates and 10 UDCs, and not in 2000 years, but in 5. Considering that in the 2s there was an almost complete failure, it is quite normal. 5) Come on. Although the United States is 10 times larger in population and 6 times in economic power, Japan is quite comparable. At the same time, let us know how many planes, tanks, missiles have been put into operation by Japan over the past 10 years. Especially ICBMs - each for the price of EV. 4,5) China is XNUMX times larger than Russia in terms of population and XNUMX times in terms of economic power. When you accuse someone of theft, first compare the source codes.
                      9. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 24 January 2021 00: 05
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        1.) "Panteleev" entered service on 19.12.1991. Or who was later? 2) Vicky gives 3 after 31.12.1991/3/90 4) Compared to the fact that most of those completed in the 11356s were launched back in the USSR, this is a trifle. 5) Project 2 is a full-fledged frigate. The results were 20 frigates and 10 UDCs, and not in 2000 years, but in 5. Considering that in the 2s there was an almost complete failure, it is quite normal. 5) Come on. Although the United States is 10 times larger in population and 6 times in economic power, Japan is quite comparable. At the same time, let us know how many planes, tanks, missiles have been put into operation by Japan over the past 10 years. Especially ICBMs - each for the price of EV. 4,5) China is XNUMX times larger than Russia in terms of population and XNUMX times in terms of economic power. When you accuse someone of theft, first compare the source codes.

                        1. "Chebanenko" of the improved project 1155.1 was adopted in 1999.
                        2. Boats of the 971 project were built by 2 plants.
                        If you count from 1992, then they handed over to the Fleet: "Gerard", "Leopard", "Tiger", "Vepr", "Samara", "Kuzbass", "Nerpa". There are 7 boats in total. Plus 5 boats of the 949 series. It seems to be finally correct numbers.
                        3. So I'm talking to you about inertia. For 10 years after the collapse of the USSR, 12 boats were completed / handed over. And then in 20 years - 5 boats. I don't think 2021-2030 will be more than 5 either, despite the fact that 13 are now in varying degrees / stages of readiness. The problem is not to launch it into the water, but to hand it over to the Navy, that is, to come tests.
                        4. On surface ships, their rank is important. We slipped into the coastal fleet (near sea zone), which does not meet the definition of "Great Power". And I associate this with the corruption of our elites, who are interested in nothing but personal enrichment, retention of power, the welfare of children. And terrible hypocrisy, when with one hand our Nullified One is baptized, with the other he steals and allows his friends.
                        And in the plans of the Ministry of Defense and shipbuilders there are no destroyers or missile cruisers. The Leader project is only in the form of a layout, no documents. I have not heard a word about the cruisers.
                        4. Yes, it is useless to compare with China and the USA, we can hardly compete with them all.
                        5. No, it was you who said that in Japan (the United States is also dropping England, although the Britons recently surrendered 2 aircraft carriers) things are no better than in our country. Theft, apparently, does not affect the delivery of ships. So show that in Japan (or England) the situation with the navy is no better.
                        About the source - I did not understand. Few can compare with Putin and his friends in theft? I agree.
                      10. clerk
                        clerk 24 January 2021 09: 33
                        0
                        1,2 - I agree. 3- You talked about 80s inertia in 2010, not 90s. And this is an obvious invention. Crying for CR and EM does not take into account the real - there is no filling for them in the required amount yet. 4) But why - when the next attack of yelling about the theft of Putin and Co. begins, they compare it with the United States and China, and not with Japan and the AIF, which are close in economy and population? .5) In 2010, Japan put into operation 3 light AV, 7 EM and 9 diesel-electric submarines, Russia - 4 SSBNs, 1 nuclear-powered submarine, 5 frigates, 2 UDC and 8 diesel-electric submarines The difference is not many times .. Despite the fact that Japan did not have from spending on ICBMs, aviation and incomparably less on ground forces. 6) Explain about the source code once again - before making another hysteria about Putin's theft, one should compare the volumes of arms purchases with similar economies and populations of first-order countries, and not with those that exceed Russia by 5 times. Besides Navalny's "investigations"
                      11. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 24 January 2021 18: 53
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        1,2 - I agree. 3- You talked about 80s inertia in 2010, not 90s. And this is an obvious invention. Crying for CR and EM does not take into account the real - there is no filling for them in the required amount yet. 4) But why - when the next attack of yelling about the theft of Putin and Co. begins, they compare it with the United States and China, and not with Japan and the AIF, which are close in economy and population? .5) In 2010, Japan put into operation 3 light AV, 7 EM and 9 diesel-electric submarines, Russia - 4 SSBNs, 1 nuclear-powered submarine, 5 frigates, 2 UDC and 8 diesel-electric submarines The difference is not many times .. Despite the fact that Japan did not have from spending on ICBMs, aviation and incomparably less on ground forces. 6) Explain about the source code once again - before making another hysteria about Putin's theft, one should compare the volumes of arms purchases with similar economies and populations of first-order countries, and not with those that exceed Russia by 5 times. Besides Navalny's "investigations"

                        3. I talked about inertia in general without reference. I believe that 2 large landing ships, 2 frigates and 3 underfrigates in 20 years is not a rise, this is the same stagnation, marking time, being at the bottom.
                        Yes, there is nothing for destroyers and cruisers. And nothing is being done. Otherwise, the jingo-propogandons would have trumpeted all the media. They built a model of the destroyer (leader), immediately announced that they were almost ready for the bookmark.
                        I agree that the program for building a submarine fleet allows us to be called the Fleet.
                        4. Probably because many want to compare themselves with Great powers, strong, ambitious states, and not with Japan (having nothing against this country). The USSR collapsed a long time ago, many still remember that time.
                        5. It is curious that the Japanese introduce ocean-going ships, while not having such ambitions as we do. 3 light aircraft carriers (under the F-35B?) And 7 destroyers - this is a great result! And their boats are from VNEU, not the outdated Varshavyanka. Yes, of course, they are not comparable with nuclear submarines, but in their region they are very relevant.
                        6. I am quite sober about these investigations. It is clear who helps him with them, he himself would not have dug in such a volume. But the trick is, I knew very well before him, albeit not about all the persons involved and not in such a number. So the conclusions are not based on his video.
                      12. clerk
                        clerk 24 January 2021 20: 53
                        0
                        3) in 10 years. After 10 years of stagnation. Quite worthy - On the level of Japan and France. 4) Building a fleet out of nostalgia is cool. For those who yearn for the influence of the USSR, let me remind you that in 2010, over 10 years, Russia put into operation more than 120 Yars, which in terms of money is equivalent to 10-15 CR URO of the level of pr. 1164. To the question of comparing even with the United States and China. 5) Japan is an island country - the fleet is also used for air defense / missile defense. By the way, I don’t remember their UDC. 6) His "investigations" - this is from the category of "small change in your pockets". When some thread Klimov tears his shirt for the wrong corvette at the price of not 18, but 20 billion, and a hysterical chorus assesses him with a cry "Putin has stolen everything," then this does not cause anything but contemptuous disgust.
                      13. FRoman1984
                        FRoman1984 25 January 2021 23: 37
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        3) in 10 years. After 10 years of stagnation. Quite worthy - On the level of Japan and France. 4) Building a fleet out of nostalgia is cool. For those who yearn for the influence of the USSR, let me remind you that in 2010, over 10 years, Russia put into operation more than 120 Yars, which in terms of money is equivalent to 10-15 CR URO of the level of pr. 1164. To the question of comparing even with the United States and China. 5) Japan is an island country - the fleet is also used for air defense / missile defense. By the way, I don’t remember their UDC. 6) His "investigations" - this is from the category of "small change in your pockets". When some thread Klimov tears his shirt for the wrong corvette at the price of not 18, but 20 billion, and a hysterical chorus assesses him with a cry "Putin has stolen everything," then this does not cause anything but contemptuous disgust.

                        To be honest, I don't know who Klimov is, and what the story is with the price of the corvette. I will honestly say that I look at the investigations from the point of view of an alternative opinion on our realities. Naturally, what they have stolen is not enough for destroyers and cruisers, here the very fact of theft is important as a characteristic of the people in charge of the country and industries. It is unlikely that something positive can be expected from them if they think about their pocket and property outside the cordon, and not about the ocean fleet.
                        In Japan, the UDC is called helicopter carriers, it seems. They have such.
                      14. clerk
                        clerk 26 January 2021 09: 36
                        0
                        1) Klimov is a well-known character in narrow circles, captri 35-38 years ago, a former deputy engineer of a submarine brigade at the Pacific Fleet and a year before his dismissal - in some naval research institute. He writes articles about the problems of naval weapons, usually at the moment when these problems have already begun to be addressed. Which gives him the opportunity to look almost like a gray eminence, who is listened to when making decisions. 2) You demand that we replace Kozlov with someone like Hindenburg. But you must know that we do not have the Hindenburgs in reserve. (C) 3) These are those 3 built during the last 10 years, which I called light AB just above?
              3. clerk
                clerk 24 January 2021 09: 55
                0
                England and France over the past 10 years have put into operation (for two) - 1 SSBN, 4 nuclear submarines, 2 AB, 11 EM and 1 UDC. Admittedly, they were not spent on ICBMs and also much less on aviation and ground forces. Therefore, the accusations of Putin and Co. in the theft of funds for the defense industry have no serious justification. Of course they steal something, but compared to the 90s - a mere trifle.
  • sniperino
    sniperino 21 January 2021 08: 45
    0
    Quote: FRoman1984
    There is no influx of young people into the defense industry. Non-monetary, unpopular activity among young people.
    For many years, young people have been hammered into their heads that the most prestigious area of ​​activity is to start showing their bare ass on the Internet in their bedroom, and end up in the Maldives. It is not easy to take away such hope from young men, but movement in this direction is not seen only by those who fundamentally do not want to notice it, as well as regular viewers of "House 2", "Univer" and other fans of Buzova, for whom the military-industrial complex is an incomprehensible sequence of letters , and the closure of their favorite show is a signal that the authorities are atrocities and it is time to bring down.
  • Vadim237
    Vadim237 16 January 2021 15: 55
    -2
    "These projects so far only claim human lives (an explosion at a training ground with the death of people, with a release of radiation." And do not forget that since 2014 Russia began to have problems with the supply of marine diesel engines and turbines and other units and components from Ukraine, as a result of which all 6 years have been engaged in import substitution from here and a significant shift in terms of delivery of ships and submarines.
    "Here are the figures showing that we have forgotten how to build a serious fleet of the far sea zone. Is this not collapse?" This is not collapse - collapse is when nothing is being built at all and enterprises go bankrupt and close massively.
    1. FRoman1984
      FRoman1984 17 January 2021 04: 03
      -1
      Quote: Vadim237
      "These projects so far only claim human lives (an explosion at a training ground with the death of people, with a release of radiation." And do not forget that since 2014 Russia began to have problems with the supply of marine diesel engines and turbines and other units and components from Ukraine, as a result of which all 6 years have been engaged in import substitution from here and a significant shift in terms of delivery of ships and submarines.
      "Here are the figures showing that we have forgotten how to build a serious fleet of the far sea zone. Is this not collapse?" This is not collapse - collapse is when nothing is being built at all and enterprises go bankrupt and close massively.

      I will argue with you. The lead ship 22350 was prevented from surrendering 10 years ago not by the sanctions of Ukraine, but not by the readiness of Polyment-Redut. It took a very long time to finish it That is why only 2 ships were handed over, not 9. And here the Ministry of Defense should be praised that they showed adherence to principles and did not accept the unfinished ship with finishing "on the fly."
      On the second remark: if nothing was built at all and went bankrupt, it would be a national disaster. And the collapse is what we have now.
    2. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 17 January 2021 15: 34
      +2
      Quote: Vadim237
      This is not collapse - collapse is when nothing is being built at all and enterprises go bankrupt and close in large quantities.


      In order to prevent bankruptcy, our state annually injects cash investments into the absolute overwhelming number of enterprises and extinguishes the debts of enterprises to banks.
      With their own state banks.

      Our entire military-industrial complex is bankrupt!

      He does not have enough money allocated by the state for production - even with such inflated prices that they take in shock when looking at government contracts.

      And if additional annual infusions were to be stopped, then everyone would go bankrupt within a year.
      Such are our managers who grew up in the military-industrial complex from the very bottom.
      And no.
      These are not "effective outside managers" - they are relatives. which masters came to factories in the late 80s, early 90s ...

      This is who is actually destroying our defenses.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 17 January 2021 16: 47
        -1
        The military-industrial complex uses loans to create weapons and only then the state closes this loan with budgetary funds. so there is no need to talk about a total bankruptcy of the military-industrial complex here.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 17 January 2021 18: 48
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          The military-industrial complex uses loans to create weapons and only then the state closes this loan with budgetary funds. so there is no need to talk about a total bankruptcy of the military-industrial complex here.


          Do not smack nonsense ...
          The military-industrial complex first receives money for design.
          The military-industrial complex then receives money to re-equip enterprises for the production of new products.
          The military-industrial complex then receives money for the very production of new products ...

          You can’t tell me your fairy tales to me who has been working for several years with the state defense order ...
  • Foxnova
    Foxnova 15 January 2021 08: 13
    +11
    Karakurt with Chinese diesels ...
    941 projects as an illustration of Belgorod

    Analytega in the studio .....
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 15 January 2021 09: 56
    +10
    The boat has been built for 30 years! What, mediocrity can no longer cope? Do you need specialists? And when they put all Kirienkov and Serdyukovs to "steer", and what result did they expect? By the way, they still rule, and Chubais is still in power. For some reason, the authorities do not allow journalists or plumbers to treat them in case of illness! Give them doctors with education and ten years of practice - specialists! The hockey player and footballer have a salary of $ million. And what about the submarine designer? A collector of missiles, helicopters and other specific equipment? When all power is permeated with mediocrities, who think first of all about money, a house in Miami, what result can you expect? 20 years while Putin rules, they could not build, it means that they will feed us cartoons for another 20 years !!
    1. Charik
      Charik 15 January 2021 13: 10
      0
      so also all these athletes, employees of the FSB
  • Galleon
    Galleon 15 January 2021 09: 59
    +12
    Sometimes there is a feeling that some things are being done on purpose, consciously. Fanfare trumpets regularly, patriotism grows and braces grow stronger. But PLO forces are disappearing in the navy, and it seems that this is how it should be. They release surface ships without radar and air defense systems (some kind of obscurantism for the 21st century !!) - and again the top management looks pleased. Nuclear submarines are being built for 7-10-12 years. For 20 years they talk about a single combat information field (I generally keep quiet about the electromagnetic compatibility of the connection) - and, like 50 years ago, the basis of the BP is a single voyage without external sources of the situation. What is there - do our admirals generally know how to command formations in battle? And where did they learn this, on what teachings?
    The feeling that someone who already has both accounts and children is being forced to make us deliberately weak in a future collision. Even in the fact that no matter how important the production task is - its stupid and greedy little people will command it, and engineers and foremen will be kept on a beggarly salary, "so God forbid," so that people cannot raise their heads - even that is present this malicious intent, the deliberate will of the owner-grabber or the veiled cunning of the "father" of privatization.
    1. agond
      agond 15 January 2021 11: 02
      +2
      Quote: Galleon
      Fanfare trumpets regularly, patriotism grows and braces grow stronger.

      It is the competence of competent persons to blame, it seems to exist, but it is lame.
      But in fact, the answer is simple, the more functions are put into the ship, the more complex it turns out, larger, more expensive long-term construction, closer to the end of long-term construction, it turns out that the project is critically outdated in some places and it is necessary to make changes, but changes are already difficult, expensive and long ., the dates are shifted. In order for all this not to be necessary to build something smaller, but easier, for example, to limit the displacement of the submarine
  • U-58
    U-58 15 January 2021 10: 51
    +2
    BUREAUKRAT runs everything.
    This is in addition to designers, engineers, and so on.
    It is safe to say that the mass of paper spent on all possible correspondence on the project has long exceeded the mass of that very boat Belgorod.
    According to the newfangled standards, every sneeze, every change, innovation, deviation is overgrown with kilograms of memos, "decisions", protocols, requests and responses, approvals, inquiries, reports and other fiction.
    And no step forward is possible without this "necklace".
    How can we dream of the ocean depths, the Moon, Mars, Snickers ...
  • rudolff
    rudolff 15 January 2021 10: 59
    +11
    "Even skeptics (such as the author) always had the confidence that with what, and with nuclear submarines, we have complete order. We could, we can and will be able to build." Maybe these skeptics had their Internet disconnected for several years and did not have a TV set and could not watch the progress of the rearmament program in the submarine fleet? Remind me how many Ash and Boreyevs we should have had by the end of the 20th year? It is in submarine building that we have our biggest problems. And not only for nuclear submarines. The Lada project was covered with a copper basin, for VNEU and LIAB we will probably soon go to the Chinese with a bow. The loss of competencies in some places is simply catastrophic. And from the victorious reports of our Ministry of Defense is already just sick. The fleet rearmament program has failed miserably in all respects, but ... the goals have been achieved! Rearmament in the fleet was 70% with a hook! Ka-a-ak ?!
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 15 January 2021 12: 31
      +2
      Quote: rudolff
      Rearmament in the fleet was 70% with a hook! Ka-a-ak ?!

      hi Alternatively, by writing off old ships. For example, the K-84 has been stuck for a year. The remaining 5 BDRMs will also be written off soon, you can't extend their terms all the time. So we will update.
    2. Tiksi-3
      Tiksi-3 16 January 2021 09: 28
      +1
      Quote: rudolff
      And from the victorious reports of our Ministry of Defense is already just sick. The fleet rearmament program failed miserably in all respects,

      hi MoE has long since lost my trust with their constant promises and loss of competence
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 15 January 2021 11: 07
    -7
    horror! without a nuclear submarine and a fleet is not needed, you need to get away from unnecessary UDCs, sell Kuzya to India to China and spend more money on fine-tuning the nuclear submarine, the main striking force of the fleet, produce a large series of nuclear submarines
  • Luty
    Luty 15 January 2021 11: 13
    +11
    On MRK Karakurt there are diesel engines from Zvezda. Chinese are put on the project 21631.
  • prior
    prior 15 January 2021 11: 59
    +6
    Would it be worth checking if the propeller is still made of bronze on "Belgorod" or has it already been connected?
  • Egorov Oleg
    Egorov Oleg 15 January 2021 12: 34
    +2
    To bomb Voronezh and what is enough, how can a colony develop weapons against the mother country.
  • Charik
    Charik 15 January 2021 12: 48
    0
    And why is there a Shark (Typhoon) in the photo of pr.941 in the story about pr.949 Antey "Belgorod"
  • Charik
    Charik 15 January 2021 12: 49
    +1
    for the project 995M, that is, "Ash-M" .- kavo, chigo?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 15 January 2021 16: 38
      0
      There is no information about what is wrong with the "Ash-M". Unlike the Ash-M project, this is in fact a new submarine due to significant structural changes and new equipment; therefore, the terms of their construction and delivery are shifted.
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 18 January 2021 12: 15
        0
        are the terms from the lantern set, movable? why put it then? populism, sabotage or failure? there are no other variks ..
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 15 January 2021 12: 57
    +2
    Good "Belgorod" (pictured)! laughing Even if I can see "cognitive dissonance" here from my completely land-based sofa, how could it have appeared? belay
  • Charik
    Charik 15 January 2021 13: 01
    +6
    What will now be used to heat the AUGs of YUSA on the VO, there are few Zircons or not-Poseidons-No-Granites removed-Caliber little-probably effective managers will have to charge launchers
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 16 January 2021 16: 01
      0
      Caliber missiles a year, 200 - 300 pieces are produced in what and in them there is definitely no shortage.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 15 January 2021 13: 24
    +1
    Quote: Pilat2009
    Quote: Bashkirkhan
    Quote: AKuzenka
    And I'm not ready to fight for yachts and fornication of oligarchs, and I won't let children in. I will drive you into the taiga, but I won't let you in.

    Not a bad option. Then, if anything, you will attach children to the occupation administration. And the concentration camps for the local population will need to be protected. And if they don't want to work, then they will let them in for soap and lampshades. For the extraction of resources of millions of 15 aborigines will be enough.

    Here is an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting? Don't you think that something is wrong in the Danish kingdom?
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 15 January 2021 13: 25
    -1
    [quote = Pilat2009] [quote = Pilat2009] [quote = Bashkirkhan] [quote = AKuzenka] And I'm not ready to fight for yachts and fornication of oligarchs, and I won't let children in. I will drive you into the taiga, but I won't. [/ Quote]
    Not a bad option. Then, if anything, you attach children to the occupation administration. And the concentration camps for the local population will need to be protected. If they don’t want to work, they’ll be allowed to use soap and lampshades. To extract resources of millions of 15 aborigines is enough. [/ Quote]
    Here is an answer to a simple question. Why all countries (civilized) just live and Russia is always fighting? Don't you think that something is wrong in the Danish kingdom?
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 15 January 2021 13: 39
    +9
    I must say frankly and honestly. Currently, there are no combat-ready representatives of Project 885. The main problem is that 885 was not worked out and was brought to the industry during the existence of the USSR. And any complex project that is created from zero, in the conditions of the Russian Federation, where due to the triumph of "freedom and democracy" the culture of production has sharply subsided and tight control with the real prosecution of those involved is no longer possible, turns into a protracted long-term construction.

    In the current political realities, it is impossible to radically correct the problem. This means that 885 will be long and tedious to bring to mind, just like in their time they brought Bulava, S-400 and Redoubt, and now they are trying to bring 677 and 11711 to mind. By the way, this approach to business, when the project is brought to mind despite what an unrealistically prolonged timeframe, which often results in the forced construction of frankly outdated equipment, such as, for example, the same 636, so that at least something is in service, suggests that the Russian Federation today does not have the technical ability to be, and not to seem power, regardless of what the leadership has intentions in this regard.

    There is no economy, the goal of which is a large internal market, there is no basis for general welfare. An export-oriented economy, geared towards the export of raw materials, forces dumping by means of undervaluation of the national currency and low salaries, which again affects the welfare of most citizens. Lack of prosperity and the notorious confidence in the future directly affects motivation, which also affects labor productivity.

    Investment in science is stagnating. There is no guarantee of free higher education for everyone. At the same time, it is impossible to live normally on the minimum wage, which forces one to work for the purpose of earning money, and not self-realization. All this together leads to an insufficient (in comparison with the USSR) inflow of people into scientific, engineering and skilled workers. As a result, quantity does not translate into quality. As a result, there are either no breakthrough projects, or development times exceed all permissible limits. Ultimately, the leadership, out of despair, has to climb into the Soviet archives in order to get old developments from there, as well as try to modernize Soviet projects like the Tu-160 or Il-96 to a more or less relevant level. Simply because a weak scientific and engineering school and a ruined industry, which is not needed in conditions of imprisonment for the export of raw materials, face enormous difficulties trying to deliver a quality project within a reasonable time frame. There is no point in mentioning individual attempts at sawing, when a long-term construction becomes financially beneficial to specific individuals and organizations.

    So if someone is seriously counting on a real confrontation with the West, he must clearly realize that in a world where the advantage is provided by high-tech developments, there is no alternative to the Soviet project and cannot be.
    There is no alternative, because within the framework of the Soviet project, everyone received guarantees not even of survival, but of a normal life, which in turn opened up the opportunity to involve in science and the engineering and design industry, i.e. in those areas that are essentially engaged in pure creativity, a large number of people. And quantity, in turn, inevitably turned into quality, which was expressed in the creation of innovative products for that period of time.

    In the conditions of bourgeois reality, we have a typical expectation-reality effect. The layman, dreaming of a formidable imperial fleet under the banner of the great galactic conqueror, concludes that there is no analogy of content based on elegant glossy ceremonial beauty, which, of course, is fundamentally wrong, since the external form does not necessarily reflect the internal content. As the saying goes, not all that glitters is gold.
    1. sniperino
      sniperino 16 January 2021 11: 49
      -2
      Quote: A_Lex
      someone is seriously counting on a real opposition to the West, he must be clearly aware ...
      If the West did not feel real opposition from Russia to its expansionist wishes, they would have already written about the Russian Federation only in the past tense. In the meantime, they can only squeal and shit no more than the average level in retrospect.
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 16 January 2021 12: 28
        +3
        If the West did not feel real opposition from Russia to its expansionist wishes, they would have already written about the Russian Federation only in the past tense.


        Burn with such a primitive point of view, as if in words they always reflect only the real state of affairs, i.e. only tell the truth.
        The United States needs to continue pumping up its military-industrial complex, which ensures control of the colonies, and the Russian Federation, as the heir and type of successor to the USSR, is a wonderful object that can be advertised as an enemy with might and main, knocking out the budget on this basis. So the Russian Federation perfectly plays up to the United States, maintaining the intensity of the confrontation in the press, but as soon as it comes to a real confrontation, it surrenders another territory to the United States under the well-developed slogan "You cannot be more Serbs than the Serbs themselves."
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 16 January 2021 12: 47
          -1
          Quote: A_Lex
          RF as the heir and type of successor to the cause of the USSR, a wonderful object that can be advertised with might and main as an enemy, knocking out the budget on this basis.
          Why go against your own gas station myth? Communist China would just be "like the successor of the USSR cause" for advertising, and the Russian Federation would continue to "surrender another territory to the United States" without strengthening its partnership with the PRC. What a HiHA (American cunning move) ...
          1. A_Lex
            A_Lex 16 January 2021 13: 48
            0
            So no one argues against the real state of the gas station. Even the same GDP suggests that they have just begun to get off the oil needle, which means they have not yet got off, and the United States does not call Russia a superpower, and the sale of raw materials cannot be the basis of a superpower's economy.
            As for China, both economically and even more so militarily, it has only recently begun to resemble an opponent, while in terms of its nuclear arsenal it still cannot be compared with the Russian Federation. As for its "communism", then this fact is contradicted by the number of Chinese billionaires, who are already collectively more than American and Indian combined.
            The Russian Federation, on the other hand, is extremely convenient in the progressive process of transferring territories to partners, because it traditionally plays the role of an enemy, against the background of a seemingly friendly for a civilized West, to which it does not want to let go of the territories of its former influence stretching towards it.
            So there are no contradictions in this performance.
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 16 January 2021 13: 59
              +1
              Quote: A_Lex
              in the progressive process of transferring territories to partners
              This is about Chechnya, South Ossetia, Crimea, Donbass, Karabakh .... Do you see the world in a magic mirror?
              1. A_Lex
                A_Lex 16 January 2021 14: 17
                -1
                This is about Chechnya, South Ossetia, Crimea, Karabakh ...


                "This is about Chechnya" - a way out would be a dangerous precedent for the entire Russian Federation and would not fit into the concept of "a reviving empire that needs to be contained." As long as the Russian Federation is effectively promoting the reorientation of the territories of its former influence on the new hegemon, there is no point in disintegration, thereby increasing the risks.
                "South Ossetia, Crimea" - well, you need to somehow demonstrate to your public what for the sake of "restraining the Russian Federation". Do not just shake with one white powder. And the public in the Russian Federation can interpret the same actions as "collecting lands" and evidence of "increasing power." It turns out very conveniently.
                Karabakh is a victory for Turkey and a defeat for Armenia. One can no longer remember about the CSTO. There is no such organization in reality.

                Do you see the world in a magic mirror?


                I see the world as it is, because I ignore words that do not correspond to reality. Accordingly, I also ignore the product of advertisers who tell people what they want to hear.
                1. sniperino
                  sniperino 16 January 2021 14: 23
                  -2
                  Quote: A_Lex
                  I see the world as it is
                  I'm scared for you. Long-term use of hallucinogens leads to the fact that people become both externally and mentally like mushrooms.
                  1. A_Lex
                    A_Lex 16 January 2021 14: 27
                    +1
                    I'm scared for you. Long-term use of hallucinogens


                    Fire again. You are not discussing the arguments, but the opponent. Further communication with you is no longer advisable.
                    1. sniperino
                      sniperino 16 January 2021 14: 36
                      -2
                      Quote: A_Lex
                      You are not discussing the arguments, but the opponent.
                      I strive to see the person for the arguments of my opponent. Like Diogenes, who walked with fire during the day.
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 16 January 2021 16: 10
              0
              "So nobody argues against the real state of the gas station." Of course, no one argues, especially when this very "gas station" occupies 19% of the GDP and 30% of the budget for this year - they got off the oil and gas needle.
              1. A_Lex
                A_Lex 16 January 2021 16: 25
                +1
                in the structure of GDP 19% and 30% of the budget for this year


                Manipulation with numbers and fraud for the sake of misleading has long been uninteresting.

                18.01.2019. Capital outflow disappeared from Central Bank statistics after $ 67 billion leak
                The indicator "net capital outflow by the private sector" disappeared from all reports of the Bank of Russia against the backdrop of a sharp deterioration in statistics in 2018.
                After the outflow accelerated 2,7 times and reached a record since 2014, the Central Bank decided to rename the corresponding line in its publications.
                Former name - capital import / export - replaced by neutral “financial transactions of the private sector”, rewrote not only new releases, but also all publications up to 1994.
                The decision was made in order to "harmonize terminology" so that it would correspond to the system of national accounts of Rosstat, follows from the explanations of the press service of the central bank.
                Earlier, the Central Bank reported that capital outflow "may be good news", proving that export does not necessarily mean illegal operations. This can be, for example, just the purchase of foreign currency by the population or business.
                But they failed to convince the economists. “The grandiose scale of the withdrawal of capital from the country” underlines the “drop in confidence in the economy,” Kirill Tremasov, head of the analytical department at Loko-Invest, commented on Central Bank statistics.
                Outflow reached $ 67,5 billion in a year, which the central bank has not recorded even once since the crisis of 2014. At the same time, $ 36,5 billion flowed out of the country in the fourth quarter - almost 1,5 times more than in the entire last year.
                $ 9,6 billion for the year was taken by foreign investors from the public debt market; another 20 billion was directed by Russian companies to foreign assets. Probably, we are talking about the funds that commodity exporters left abroad, having decided not to transfer them to Russian accounts, says Dmitry Dolgin, an ING economist.
                At the same time, the capital markets closed: in the second half of the year, only 60% of external debt was refinanced (against 86% in the 1-2 quarters), said Denis Poryvai, an analyst at Raiffeisenbank.
                Also, shadow outflow rose sharply. Although the Central Bank did not formally detect any “dubious transactions” (their volume was estimated at zero dollars), the line “errors and omissions” for October-December included flows of $ 5,6 billion... These are funds that were withdrawn from the country under as yet unclear circumstances.
                https://www.finanz.ru/novosti/valyuty/vyvoz-kapitala-ischez-iz-statistiki-cb-posle-utechki-$67-mlrd-1027879307
                1. clerk
                  clerk 17 January 2021 12: 38
                  0
                  The main capital outflow is the repayment of external debt and the return of foreign investment. Before getting outraged, I recommend that you figure out how the balance of payments is calculated
                  1. A_Lex
                    A_Lex 17 January 2021 13: 26
                    -2
                    The main capital outflow is the repayment of external debt and the return of foreign investment.


                    Lies. The external debt of the Russian Federation has long been at the same level, its amount is relatively insignificant and does not require significant funds to cover. And most of the "investment" foreign is listed purely formally, since it goes through offshore companies such as Cyprus and in fact is money laundering. In any case, over 25 years, capital outflow from the RF briefly exceeds the capital inflow.
                    1. clerk
                      clerk 17 January 2021 13: 35
                      0
                      What you call my lies in fact is your illiteracy in the topic under discussion. You do not distinguish between the concept of external debt of government agencies, which is really small, and the total government debt (taking into account private companies, state-owned companies and state banks), which is comparable to the total amount of gold reserves and has decreased by $ 5-6 billion over the past 150-200 years. This decrease is shown in the balance of payments statistics as capital outflow. As well as dividends of foreigners from investing in shares of Russian companies and banks. The laundering of funds for this in general by no side is from another opera.
                      1. A_Lex
                        A_Lex 17 January 2021 14: 55
                        +1
                        What you call my lies in fact is your illiteracy in the topic under discussion. You do not distinguish between the concept of external debt of government agencies, which is really small, and the total government debt (taking into account private companies, state-owned companies and state banks), which is comparable to the total amount of gold reserves and has decreased by $ 5-6 billion over the past 150-200 years. This decrease is shown in the balance of payments statistics as capital outflow. As well as dividends of foreigners from investing in shares of Russian companies and banks. The laundering of funds for this in general by no side is from another opera.


                        There is no concept of "government debt". There is no such thing as a "full national debt" either. You are illiterate, you operate with incorrect terms, but at the same time they accuse me of allegedly illiteracy. And your demonstrated conviction that there cannot be money laundering among the indicated amounts clearly demonstrates your biasedness and betrays you as a propagandist, since you cannot have complete confidence that in this case there is no money laundering. Further communication with you as an agitator is impractical.
                      2. clerk
                        clerk 17 January 2021 15: 38
                        0
                        Of course, it is more expedient for you to sit down at textbooks and look at the statistics on external debt personally, and not retell illiterate people. Then you would understand (maybe) what is the debt of public administration bodies and what is external debt in the extended definition. You can look at the definition of money laundering in the law 115-fz. I wish you success in the field of self-education.
              2. Vadim237
                Vadim237 17 January 2021 16: 51
                0
                "The manipulation of numbers and fraud for the sake of misleading has long been of no interest." I tell you about Thomas, the "gas station" occupies 19% of the GDP and 30% of the budget for this year, you tell me about Erema "Over the year, the outflow reached $ 67,5 billion, which the central bank has never recorded since the crisis of 2014." Do not make the brain either yourself or others. Somehow ask how much money has been invested in Russia from 2000 to 2020 and how much has been withdrawn.
              3. clerk
                clerk 19 January 2021 22: 36
                0
                Capital outflow is primarily the repayment of external debt. There is nothing negative about this term.
  • t-12
    t-12 17 January 2021 15: 55
    0
    There is no guarantee of free higher education for everyone.

    The problem is not education, but its application. A graduate (of a technical university) has a choice of approximately the following: either work in a specialty for a penny, or work outside the specialty (some kind of programmer in a commercial company), or go abroad (and work in a specialty there).
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 January 2021 14: 03
    +1
    it's strange that photo 941 of the project ... request
  • kieferandreas
    kieferandreas 15 January 2021 14: 31
    0
    Are these submarines needed to transport Poseidon? the first couple of dozen can be programmed for offline mode.
    Poseidon will get to the geolocation, will get under its own power along the very bottom and then enter into sleep mode. he himself is smaller than a submarine in size, dives deeper, goes quieter, in short, almost invisible to everyone.
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 15: 18
      -6
      Exactly.
      I've been talking about this for a long time.
      To bring a couple of dozen under their own power to the US coast near potential targets and put them on the ground. And then, on signal, they attack targets at full speed. Moreover, it would be nice to be able to climb large rivers inland.
      Well, for routine maintenance, they also periodically removed from the position and went to the base themselves.
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 15 January 2021 16: 22
        -2
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        Exactly.
        I've been talking about this for a long time.
        To bring a couple of dozen under their own power to the US coast near potential targets and put them on the ground. And then, on signal, they attack targets at full speed. Moreover, it would be nice to be able to climb large rivers inland.
        Well, for routine maintenance, they also periodically removed from the position and went to the base themselves.



        And if they come to us?

        Well, there is Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk on the Amur - in the depths of the country along the Amur to achieve ...
        And to Rostov-on-Don - across the Don ...
        St. Petersburg and Vladivostok, Sevastopol, Novorossiysk, Sochi - what would wash away ... As they often write here ...

        Or will you again answer: "And what about us?" ...
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 16: 26
          -6
          Quote: SovAr238A
          And if they come to us?

          Hands are short.
          They don't have such devices.
          1. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 15 January 2021 16: 53
            +3
            Quote: Narak-zempo
            Quote: SovAr238A
            And if they come to us?

            Hands are short.
            They don't have such devices.


            Enemies should never be underestimated.
            They have normal hands.
            And they have plenty of money.
            And they have been working closely with drones for a long time.
            And underwater in particular.
            One Orc is worth something.

            They had no analogues of Iskander - so he quickly appeared.
            And it appeared that PU for him is much, much more than ours.

            They had no analogues of the Dagger - so it quickly appeared.
            And it also turns out that the carriers for it will not be specially redesigned aircraft, but standard aircraft, which will not need to recycle anything in the design.

            Do not underestimate the enemy.
            This leads to severe pain.
            1. Narak-zempo
              Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 17: 08
              -8
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Enemies should never be underestimated.

              Well, yes, perhaps, in the sense of cartoons, they really surpassed us. Disney, after all.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 15 January 2021 17: 26
                0
                Quote: Narak-zempo
                Quote: SovAr238A
                Enemies should never be underestimated.

                Well, yes, perhaps, in the sense of cartoons, they really surpassed us. Disney, after all.


                Orca is a living example.
                Already purchased 4 pieces ...

                Not cartoons.
                Is Disney different from SoyuzMultFilma?

                And if in fact, then they have: a real video and a real photo.
                On combat aircraft and on standard ground mobile launchers.
                And their missiles are "live" and fly on tests. The prism did exactly 5 flights.

                Air hypersound has not yet been tested in flight.
                But also five times they were lifted into the air.
                I think we'll see a video of the flight this year.
                1. Narak-zempo
                  Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 17: 33
                  -5
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  Orca is a living example.
                  Already purchased 4 pieces ...

                  Yes, let them buy for health.
                  Only in what place is "Orca" a counterweight to "Poseidon"?
                  It is a limited range diesel electric vehicle.
                  Maybe the striped ones have ultra-compact nuclear power plants to create analogues of the Poseidon? Or is the design of the 150-megaton warhead ready?
                  No, we are the leaders in this race so far, and we are not going to give up our positions.
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 19: 04
                    +3
                    Quote: Narak-zempo
                    Only in what place is "Orca" a counterweight to "Poseidon"?


                    She is not a counterweight, she (unlike Poseidon) definitely exists in reality. And how it (or its analogue) can be used to counteract Poseidon - think for yourself.

                    Quote: Narak-zempo
                    Maybe the striped ones have ultra-compact nuclear power plants to create analogues of the Poseidon? Or is the design of the 150-megaton warhead ready?


                    What makes you think that Russia has it all?
                    1. Narak-zempo
                      Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 22: 57
                      -6
                      Quote: Eye of the Crying
                      What makes you think that Russia has it all?

                      First, the President would not make statements from scratch, and secondly, in terms of nuclear technologies, we are now really ahead of the rest of the planet.
                      As for the charge, it was worked out in the early 60s.
                      1. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 23: 32
                        +4
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The President would not make statements from scratch


                        Are you serious? After 20 years of promises? good

                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        As for the charge, it was worked out in the early 60s.


                        A compact 150-megaton charge worked out in the 60s? Oh well. By whom, when?
                      2. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 23: 55
                        -4
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        A compact 150-megaton charge worked out in the 60s? Oh well. By whom, when?

                        Actually, Tsar Bomba is a 100-mt project. charge in which the uranium tamper is replaced by a lead one. So 150 mt could well.
                      3. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 01: 17
                        +1
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Actually, "Tsar Bomba"


                        fool Look at the dimensions and mass of the Tsar Bomba.
                      4. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 10: 33
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        See what dimensions and mass the Tsar Bomba had

                        Well, it was precisely for a charge of such dimensions that the T-15 torpedo was designed, later Status-6, and now Poseidon. Yes, you probably can't put a reactor in a smaller volume either.
                      5. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 12
                        +1
                        The T-15 was not designed for charges of such dimensions (and mass), because there were no such charges at that time. Status-6 is smaller.
                      6. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 22
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        The T-15 was not designed for charges of such dimensions (and mass), because there were no such charges at that time. Status-6 is smaller.

                        The T-15 was designed EXACTLY for a similar charge. This is the whole point of the project.
                        "Tsar Bomba" weighed 26 tons (including the hull and parachute system), the torpedo was supposed to weigh about 40 tons.
                        In addition, since the 60s, nevertheless, they have made progress in the field of miniaturization of warheads.
                      7. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The T-15 was designed EXACTLY for such a charge.


                        There was no such charge then.
                      8. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 37
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        There was no such charge then.

                        Physically it was not, but a general idea of ​​its dimensions, probably, was.
                        Otherwise, what was the whole project around?
                      9. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Otherwise, what was the whole project around?


                        If you don't know what the project was built around, this does not mean that it was built around Tsar Bomba.
                      10. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        If you don't know what the project was built around, this does not mean that it was built around Tsar Bomba.

                        The project was built around a 100 mt charge.
                        "Tsar Bomba" is a device for experimental testing of such a charge.
                      11. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The project was built around a 100 mt charge.


                        Come on already 1000mt. All the same, neither one nor the other existed.
                      12. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 48
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        All the same, neither one nor the other existed.

                        The charge was developed and was eventually tested in a reduced version.
                        The torpedo project was. And even the first Soviet nuclear submarine K-3 was originally designed as a carrier of such a torpedo.
                        Or do you have alternative data?
                      13. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 11: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The charge was developed and was eventually tested in a reduced version.


                        This smaller version was still larger than a torpedo, and appeared several years after the torpedo project was closed.
                      14. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        This smaller version was still larger than a torpedo.

                        Your arithmetic is strange - 26> 40 laughing
                      15. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 12: 15
                        0
                        I would ask where you got the numbers 26 and 40 from, but I'm already tired of chasing you.
                      16. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 12: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        I would ask where you got the numbers 26 and 40 from, but I'm already tired of chasing you.

                        Please.
                        26500 kg - the mass of the AN602 product, known as "Tsar Bomba".
                        40000 kg - the design weight of the T-15 torpedo (from the two-volume Nuclear Tests in the Arctic)
                      17. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 12: 40
                        0
                        Now read my comment carefully. There was absolutely nothing about the mass.
                      18. Narak-zempo
                        Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 13: 00
                        -3
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        Now read my comment carefully. There was absolutely nothing about the mass.

                        I read:
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        This smaller version was still larger than a torpedo, and appeared several years after the torpedo project was closed.

                        First, it was reduced only in power by replacing uranium with lead, which did not affect the dimensions and had little effect on the mass.
                        Secondly, yes, the diameter of the bomb exceeded the design diameter of the torpedo by 45 cm. But, again, it was practically an experimental device. "Ivy Mike" at 11 Mt generally occupied a 2-storey building and weighed under 60 tons.
                        The torpedo project was not taken from the ceiling. This means that there was an idea of ​​the possibility of creating a 100 Mt charge with a cross section of one and a half meters. Since the torpedo project was abandoned, they obviously did not bother with compaction issues during development.
                      19. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 16 January 2021 13: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Secondly, yes, the diameter of the bomb exceeded the design diameter of the torpedo by 45 cm.


                        The diameter of the bomb exceeded the design torpedo caliber of 1500mm.

                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The torpedo project was not taken from the ceiling. This means that there was an idea of ​​the possibility of creating a 100 Mt charge with a cross section of one and a half meters.


                        These are all your guesses. But if you rummage around on VO. you can find the following:

                        https://topwar.ru/22943-sovetskie-yadernye-torpedy-t-15-i-t-5.html


                        This unusual layout of the submarine is explained by the dimensions developed at the NII-400 under the leadership of the chief designer Shamarin N.N. torpedoes T-15. The length of the torpedo was about 23 meters, the mass of the torpedo - 40 tons, the mass of the warhead - 3,5-4 thousand kg.


                        Apply your knowledge of arithmetic and compare 26500 and 4000.
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 15 January 2021 17: 33
    -3
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Air hypersound has not yet been tested in flight.

    Experienced. I'm talking about the X-51A. New rockets are made on his developments.
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 15 January 2021 18: 52
    0
    Quote: SovAr238A
    They had no analogues of the Dagger - so it quickly appeared.


    If the "analogue of the Dagger" is called a BR with an air start, then they had SRAM 50 years ago.
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 15 January 2021 23: 46
    +2
    This is a torpedo, it cannot lie on the ground.
    But if she could ... the Americans will find her there. prompt the consequences?
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 16 January 2021 11: 17
      -5
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      This is a torpedo, it cannot lie on the ground.

      Already, as it were, not a torpedo, but a drone, a mini-submarine.
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      But if she could ... the Americans will find her there. prompt the consequences?

      Where will they look for something? All 6 million square kilometers of the shelf will be searched? Moreover, you can periodically change positions. Well, in case they do find it, it is necessary to make the AI ​​sufficiently advanced, to provide for the option of fleeing from the position upon detection and attempted capture.
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 16 January 2021 11: 48
        +4
        Already, as it were, not a torpedo, but a drone, a mini-submarine.


        Technically, it's a torpedo. This is not a "drone" even once, it can only shoot at 100 knots to the target to explode there, and nothing else.

        Where will they look for something? All 6 million square kilometers of the shelf will be searched?


        What for? There, closer to the United States, zones of continuous illumination begin, bottom acoustic emitters for military and civil purposes, etc., plus they will be monitored for noise on the way.
        They will know the area approximately.

        Our GUGI tried many times to climb to them on their speakers, Losharik tried, flogged right away.

        You just fantasize because you are not in the subject, but people have tried Yankees a lot of times, and today the result is this - the covert deployment of even the quietest submarine near their shore is an almost insoluble task.
        And a super-noisy torpedo - even more so.

        However, this is all speculation, in fact it can only shove on dozens of travel nodes and that's it. And the brains there are not much more complicated than that of a cruise missile. To lay low and hide is from the realm of fantasy.
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 15 January 2021 23: 45
    +4
    How long can you say this nonsense? A bunch of articles have been written about this project, incl. people who had permission to work on it, well, why write a gag?
  • Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 15 January 2021 14: 45
    -1
    and "Losharik" is gone.

    Why is it not?
    Where did you get the information that it was not put into operation after the fire?
  • nikolai.shupenin
    nikolai.shupenin 15 January 2021 14: 52
    -1
    yap, don't listen to this talker
    1. agond
      agond 15 January 2021 15: 39
      0
      The main reasons for the long-term construction of submarines
      1 desire to get universal versatility, and at a high level, which in principle is impossible for any human activity, of course you can try for a long time and persistently, for example, an eccentric wrench with the function of a screwdriver and a hammer, of course, no one will need it, unfortunately with complex objects type SP is not so obvious, but the nature of things cannot be fooled, so you should limit your wishes.
      2 our incomprehensible tradition of building double-hull submarines, in addition to complication, rise in price and long-term construction, imposes very serious restrictions on their modernization, if, for example, a single-hull boat can, in principle, be assembled from separate compartments by connecting sections with bolts (for future purposes, change outdated sections to new ones), then such a number will not work in a double-hull., both hulls will have to be cut, which was done in Belgorod
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 15 January 2021 16: 49
        -2
        We have an incomprehensible tradition of building double-hull submarines. Single-hull boats have low strength, respectively, and the survivability of our torpedo hits like the Mk 52-54 and the anti-submarine MU 90 with a 45-kilogram warhead will withstand a collision with an ice floe or a break of a decent thickness of people. steel for strengthening single-hull submarines is the same expensive pleasure.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 15 January 2021 17: 22
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          We have an incomprehensible tradition of building double-hull submarines. Single-hull boats have low strength, respectively, and the survivability of our torpedo hits like the Mk 52-54 and the anti-submarine MU 90 with a 45-kilogram warhead will withstand a collision with an ice floe or a break of a decent thickness of people. steel for strengthening single-hull submarines is the same expensive pleasure.


          The hull may survive, but it will definitely take the boat out of the battle.
          Disruption of equipment from fasteners and foundations.
          and there will be a struggle for survivability.
          In addition, the ammunition load of the same Poseidon - as many as 8 torpedoes.
          Sea Hawk has 2 torpedoes.
          And hitting two torpedoes at once does not look rosy at all.


          And if you take the option of a combat clash with enemy submarines with full-fledged torpedoes of the Mk48 level, the Spearfish hit of which is an unambiguous death of the submarine.

          On ice breaks - foreign submarines do it annually.
          Have you seen what happened to the LA-type submarine - when it crashed into the reef at full speed?
          Do you think that with our two-hull submarine the result would have been different?

          When Samara grabbed a practical torpedo in the nose, they could not fix it for almost 10 years ...
          Did the double hull help her?

          so double-hull is not a panacea at all ... And even a harmful, deceptive "pill" ...
          1. 2 Level Advisor
            2 Level Advisor 15 January 2021 20: 22
            0
            885m - not two, but one and a half hull .. argue in vain)
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 January 2021 00: 25
            +1
            Quote: SovAr238A
            When Samara grabbed a practical torpedo in the nose

            what year?
            1. SovAr238A
              SovAr238A 17 January 2021 15: 50
              0
              Quote: Fizik M
              Quote: SovAr238A
              When Samara grabbed a practical torpedo in the nose

              what year?

              2000-2003 year.
              I heard / read that allegedly during the exercises ...
              1. 2534M
                2534M 11 February 2021 10: 47
                0
                Quote: SovAr238A
                2000-2003 year.
                I heard / read that allegedly during the exercises ...

                there was no such
                the only one who "got it in the eye" in the year 2004-2005 is "Omsk"
                I was then "made happy" by the "hero of that celebration" assigned to me with a decrease
                1. SovAr238A
                  SovAr238A 11 February 2021 14: 49
                  0
                  Quote: 2534M
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  2000-2003 year.
                  I heard / read that allegedly during the exercises ...

                  there was no such
                  the only one who "got it in the eye" in the year 2004-2005 is "Omsk"
                  I was then "made happy" by the "hero of that celebration" assigned to me with a decrease


                  I found the article from where I read this.
                  https://bmpd.livejournal.com/971622.html
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 00: 26
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          our hit of torpedoes like the Mk 52 - 54 and the anti-submarine MU 90 with 45 kg warhead will withstand

          fool
          You are delusional
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 16 January 2021 16: 31
            -2
            Their warhead is cumulatively high-explosive, even if the explosive there was spent 2,3 times more powerfully in the first corps and breaks through the second, and there will be nothing for the second; hang at a distance from the main armor - the double hull of the nuclear submarine will work on the same principle.
            "YOU are delusional" - A very sensible and meaningful answer from a specialist go do torpedoes mediocrity.
            1. Brylevsky
              Brylevsky 16 January 2021 18: 49
              +1
              Their warhead is cumulatively high-explosive, even if the explosive there was spent 2,3 times more powerfully in the first body, and nothing will happen to the second; the cumulative jet will lose most of its penetrating energy, having formed at a distance from the second body

              The explosion of 45 kg of TNT will not pierce the boat's solid hull? Are you sure? Something I doubt ... A very long time ago, among other things, I studied RBU-6000 and its bomb, and so there BB - "sea mixture" - 23,5 kg, if my memory serves me ... well, I asked the teacher, the captain of the 1st rank, like, isn't it enough? He replied, literally: "It is enough to destroy the strong hull of the boat." He told me these words more than 20 years ago, and they engraved in my memory ... And you want to say that 45 kg of explosives will not penetrate 40-70 mm of a strong case? ... You focused on the cumulative action, for some reason missing out of sight, the action is explosive. Do not forget that the conversation turned about anti-submarine torpedo, which was created, including against our boats. Its designers could not have been unaware of the design features of our boats, therefore, they calculated this weight of the explosive quite deliberately. Draw conclusions.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 17 January 2021 17: 06
                0
                An explosion of 45 kilograms of course will break through the first hull, but the second is gone, it will be pierced by a cumulative jet, but the hole that it makes in the second hull will be 30 -40 millimeters in diameter with a high-explosive effect for the second hull. - These designers had limitations on the size and weight of such torpedoes, so they took the cumulative warhead as a basis so that they could somehow get out with the penetration of a double-hull boat - against torpedoes and single-hull submarines, these torpedoes are effective against double-hull submarines, the effectiveness will be extremely low.
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 11 February 2021 10: 56
                  -1
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  An explosion of 45 kilograms, of course, will break through the first case, but the second is gone, it will be pierced by a cumulative jet, but the hole that it will make in the second case will be 30 -40 mm in diameter

                  those. ALREADY PUNCH
                  and YOU are a notable BAD - at least write down for yourself!
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  took the cumulative warhead as a basis

                  there is no "cumulative warhead"
                  there is OTHER
            2. 2534M
              2534M 11 February 2021 10: 54
              -1
              Quote: Vadim237
              Their warhead is cumulatively high-explosive, even if the explosive there was spent 2,3 times more powerfully in the first body, and nothing will happen to the second; the cumulative jet will lose most of its penetrating energy, having formed at a distance from the second body, you think why

              THINK IS NOT YOURS
              photo of tests on the structure of the hull of 2-hull submarine warhead MU90 in the network are available
  • iouris
    iouris 15 January 2021 15: 34
    0
    "Poplar leaves are falling from an ash tree ..." For the first time or what? "It will be April."
    1. agond
      agond 15 January 2021 18: 00
      +2
      Quote: Vadim237
      our hit by torpedoes like the Mk 52 - 54 and the anti-submarine MU 90 with a 45 kg warhead will withstand the same as a collision with an ice floe or a decent thick ice break

      This is somehow very optimistic ... our double-hull boat is able to survive the hit of their anti-submarine torpedo !!! (by the way, does the enemy know that their anti-submarine torpedoes are not anti-submarine enough?) but they found a boat for any of them and they will spend as many torpedoes on it as necessary.
      According to a head-on collision of ours with theirs, their boats have long been built with a reinforced bow cistern, just for such the most likely case, but a strike on the side is more dangerous for them than for ours.
      If possible, surface in the ice, breaking the ice with a light hull with a boat, ... no comment
      The low corrosion resistance of a single-hull boat is worse than a double-hull, rather the opposite, the latter is always "damp" between the hulls, and access there is limited, there is a narrow gap
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 16 January 2021 17: 00
        -1
        Yes, a cumulatively high-explosive warhead weighing up to 45 kilograms will survive, such torpedoes will work well against single-hull submarines and against torpedoes. The maximum that they can make to our nuclear submarine is holes in the second case with a diameter of 30-40 millimeters from the cumulative jet, I doubt very much that they will be critical in terms of the survivability of the nuclear submarine, and yes, these torpedoes are quite expensive weapons - like a cruise missile in cost.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 17 January 2021 15: 52
          0
          Quote: Vadim237
          Yes, a cumulatively high-explosive warhead weighing up to 45 kilograms will survive, such torpedoes will work well against single-hull submarines and against torpedoes. The maximum that they can make to our nuclear submarine is holes in the second case with a diameter of 30-40 millimeters from the cumulative jet, I doubt very much that they will be critical in terms of the survivability of the nuclear submarine, and yes, these torpedoes are quite expensive weapons - like a cruise missile in cost.



          What is the essence of the HEAT part?
          And if it is also tandem?

          Can you figure out this issue yourself?
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 17 January 2021 17: 16
            0
            With these torpedoes, everything is clear anyway - there is no tandem cumulative warhead there, here is the MU 90 in the context
            the usual cumulative high-explosive warhead - the designers have the same set parameters of the product for which they cannot go.
  • Colonel
    Colonel 15 January 2021 18: 49
    0
    The assumptions that have been made here are of course based on certain speculations.

    Questions ???
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik 15 January 2021 20: 00
    +4
    it seemed that the construction of nuclear submarines is something so unshakable


    The cause of the problems is elementary. Stupidly "no one to do". And Sevmash has thousands of counterparties. And Zaporizhstal supplied metal, for example. All over again. There are a lot of competencies. Some were owned by several people in the COUNTRY! Where can I get them now? They have already died of old age without sharing their experience.
    Technology is not a description of a manufacturing process. First of all, these are people who can do it. To prepare a more or less normal welder, you need at least 10 years. For other specialties the same terms. "Students" cannot build a nuclear-powered ship. They do not know how. Not "grown" yet.

    Therefore, in agony, groans, squeaks of teeth, all this is revived. No other way.

    Good luck to the shipbuilders and crews seven feet under the keel.
  • PN
    PN 15 January 2021 20: 44
    +1
    Advice to the author: write articles in a more flowery way, without numbers. With numbers, you gave a little blunder. Well, okay, you are not a spy and you do not have accurate data, it's forgivable.
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 15 January 2021 22: 11
    +3
    Poseidons / Poseidons ...
    As the author correctly pointed out, hemorrhoids were added that year, and all the factories were. Moreover, for all orders.
    Absolutely all. And this I put it mildly and culturally.
    A couple more ventures on pandemics and other housebreaking, and we will cover ourselves with a copper basin. I am reporting to you as a shipbuilding building for about five hours from the slipway as one descended.
    This is not the Martians invented. And they disrupted all delivery dates.
    It was we ourselves who announced quarantines, curfews, and fines ... Nobody worked for nothing, terms ... I don't know ... What kind of terms can we talk about now? At least in our NW. On others, I think a similar picture.
    Our SZ is now almost bankrupt. In February, we will switch to a four-day work week. Plus, downsizing.
    Have a great time?
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman 15 January 2021 23: 48
    0
    Well, of course, so the Ministry of Defense told everyone what it accepted and what it sent for revision! Such "reports" will paint that "everything is bad with us", and then a huge Syria, almost ready to die in surrendering Damascus, will quickly return Assad back, so much so that even a squadron in the West did not have time to gather for a naval blockade. And out of nowhere, the calibers flew through several borders and flew into the vents of the demons and into the barrels of their guns one by one. Counterintelligence news game has long been used by the parties.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 00: 21
    -1
    The “Lasta” complex has been created since 1989, the team of E. A. Kurskiy worked, the same team that worked on the “Packet-NK” complex and worked successfully.

    1. I-Zen wassat - EVIL angry
    2. Kurskiy is gone for a long time
    3. His real role is purely NEGATIVE, - on the "rake thrown by him" so far "with rapture" "jump" and "Last" and "Packet"
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 04
    -1
    Remember how you changed a Chinese diesel engine that "suddenly" went out of order at one of the "Karakurt"? I had to cut the side to remove the engine.

    THERE WAS NOTHING THAT
    there are regular removable sheets - DECK
    everything is thought out, so the replacement takes literally HOURS
  • certero
    certero 16 January 2021 05: 10
    0
    Quote: Dalny V
    They don't even remember the domestic aircraft industry anymore

    In fact, Russia is one of the few countries that build modern fighters and bombers.
    And ms-21 is on its way
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 16 January 2021 05: 18
      +2
      Quote: certero
      And ms-21 is on its way

      Well, that's it, I throw the cap into the air ... wink
  • Vladimir Vlasov
    Vladimir Vlasov 16 January 2021 10: 01
    0
    Until 2000, submarines were difficult for enemies to detect. Then the submarines represented a great danger for enemies and great damage in the event of a conflict. Now, for enemies, the detection of submarines is not a problem, there are many breakthrough technologies that allow you to monitor all submarines around the clock, at any depth, at any speed. That is, they are constantly at gunpoint, all submarines and underwater drones
  • Dmitry Kapustin
    Dmitry Kapustin 16 January 2021 10: 03
    +1
    Our military-industrial complex is generally incomparable with the military-industrial complex of the USSR, since today's colleagues, and in the old days - enemies, even "galoshes" of the Soviet were terribly afraid. Today the Russian Federation raises a lot of "dust", but is alive, thanks to labor
    defenders and all citizens of the USSR. Well, the current Tops and even pensions do not like to remember this.
    for Soviet workers scanty. Probably to punish them for strengthening the defense of the USSR.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 16 January 2021 17: 05
      0
      "Our military-industrial complex is generally incomparable with the military-industrial complex of the USSR" - Now it makes no sense to keep the same defense industry as the USSR had. Russia no longer participates in the arms race, and if it participates, then with the mind minimum means maximum efficiency and within 2,5% of annual GDP and not more than 30% as it was in the USSR.
  • certero
    certero 16 January 2021 10: 15
    0
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Well, that's it, I throw the cap into the air ...

    I didn't understand your mockery.
    Don't give a damn if you throw anything or not, nevertheless Russia does produce modern fighters and modern bombers and modern medium-range passenger aircraft.
    But most importantly, it also produces engines for these aircraft.
  • VasYok
    VasYok 16 January 2021 12: 39
    -1
    No wonder. For P ... OVSKAYA COLONY this is the norm. The program of disarmament of Russia, launched by EBN, has not yet been canceled. As well as clause 15.4 of the RFC in the new edition.
  • Karen Khoreev
    Karen Khoreev 16 January 2021 14: 07
    0
    An article from the category: "What is happening there is not clear, but of course, everything is very bad and everything is gone" ... Comments from the same category .. Not a word about submarines, more and more about the oligarchs and Putin ... It's a pity .. Site always distinguished by serious analysis and reliable information. A couple more of these authors and it will be possible to put a cross on the site ...
  • fliger85
    fliger85 16 January 2021 19: 04
    +1
    I doubt that everything that is stated in the article is true.
    1. clerk
      clerk 16 January 2021 20: 20
      0
      The only time shift to the right corresponds to reality. The rest is speculation and experience. Again, we are not talking about SSBNs, but in fact about semi-experimental submarines. According to the level of concern, pathos and the use of special terms (for solidity), about 1/4 of Klimov. However, comments like “Putin stole our trillions” are generally below the plinth, even in essence.
  • Russian2020
    Russian2020 16 January 2021 22: 14
    +1
    Liberation sang a song
  • doktor_alex
    doktor_alex 17 January 2021 01: 32
    +1
    Chef, everything is gone, the plaster is being removed, the client is leaving .... In general, it’s funny, of course, to read panicky articles by experts from Wikipedia. Here really people are not too lazy to turn their fantasies into letters.
  • Boratsagdiev
    Boratsagdiev 17 January 2021 14: 06
    +2
    In the photo K-329 "Belgorod" is not the case of "Dmitry Donskoy"?
    from the category - "if only what to stick for beauty"?
  • Alexander Evdokimov
    Alexander Evdokimov 17 January 2021 19: 30
    +1
    There was no Elevator before. And there was a staircase, which you went from the first to the highest steps before taking leading and ministerial positions. But the level of professionalism and decision-making was much higher. It doesn't matter now, the main thing is loyalty. Well, how can a journalist run Roscosmos? And so practically everywhere. Every rape is an agronomist.
  • German_06
    German_06 17 January 2021 19: 40
    -1
    The article lacks an analysis: How many submarines does Russia need? What class?
    After tgo as they were driven as mad dogs behind the "Berlin Wall" the military-industrial complex of the USSR saved the economy from decay. So they built whatever they wanted just to build. Today we have other problems in the economy, and no one wants to build a submarine, as long as no one wants to build, and the generals from the military-industrial complex cannot find a compromise on many issues.
  • tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 18 January 2021 04: 07
    0
    - "And then the" golden "idea came into the heads of the naval commanders: to universalize the Ash trees and assign them the tasks of the" Kedrov ". Since the" Cedars "were too tough for the factories" - this is not a problem, this is the trouble of our military-industrial complex. Ie give us a "cat dog". this is where the "nonsense" for developers and manufacturers begins, how to make a "Mercedes" from "Zhiguli".
  • Veter_73_2017
    Veter_73_2017 18 January 2021 08: 57
    0
    All this is reminiscent of the story with "Armata".