Military Review

"Falcon from Ladoga"

404

Ladoga find


And finally, completing this small study devoted to the hypothesis of the Slavic origin of the ancestor of the first Russian princely dynasty, it is necessary to mention one find that took place during an archaeological expedition to the Zemlyanoy settlement of Staraya Ladoga in 2008.


At one time, this find excited the scientific community, because it did not quite fit into the framework of the established ideas about the era under study. This refers to the discovery by the expedition of A.N. Kirpichnikov in the layers of the second quarter of the XNUMXth century, part of the casting mold, the so-called flask.

Here it is.

"Falcon from Ladoga"

There is no doubt that with the help of this form the master tried to make a figure of a bird, very similar to the "Rurikovich falcon", as he is depicted on the modern coat of arms of the village of Staraya Ladoga in the form of a trident.

Such a find could testify to the actual and direct relationship of the sign of the Rurikovich with a falcon, which took place already in the XNUMXth century. And the first impression of this find was just that.

The information space literally exploded with headlines like "Archaeological sensation" or "The coat of arms of Rurikovich was found in Staraya Ladoga." However, the passions in the scientific community about this find quickly subsided.

If you look at the find calmly and impartially, its similarity even with the sign of Yaroslav the Wise (most similar to an attacking falcon) does not seem so obvious.

First, an attentive observer will immediately notice that the shape of a bird, molded in this shape, will be located with its head up, not down. That is, the falcon (if it really is a falcon) will not be "attacking", but "guarding".

Secondly, it does not at all follow from the fragment at our disposal that we are dealing with a falcon. We cannot even simply claim that we are dealing with a bird of prey.

And thirdly, and this is probably the most interesting thing. Historians, studying this find, according to their old tradition, began to look for something among the well-known and well-attributed artifacts that would allow to compare this find with it and draw any parallels that would allow a better understanding of the meaning of the find itself.

King Olaf's coin


And almost immediately they found an image of a bird very similar to the one that should have come out of this box. Judge for yourself:


Before us is an image of a coin by Olaf Goodfritsson, King of Dublin and Jorvik from the times of Danish law (present-day York), a descendant of the legendary Danish king Ragnar Lothbrok. The coin was minted in the period 939-941. That is, it is a modern find of the expedition of A.N. Kirpichnikov.

Some researchers believe that the coin depicts a raven - a traditional sign of the Danish Vikings from the time of Ragnar Lodbrok. And, in general, a symbol characteristic of the Scandinavians (remember, crows are Odin's constant companions).

Others see in this figure an image of a hunting falcon, believing that a collar is depicted on the bird's neck, and this is a sign of a hunting, that is, a tamed bird.

However, both of them, one way or another, agree on one thing - the similarity of these two images is obvious enough that it (the similarity) cannot be simply dismissed.

Parallels are drawn. Let's see where these parallels lead us.

Olaf Gutfritsson spent virtually his entire life on the British Isles, cruising between Britain and Ireland. In Ireland (Dublin), he had domain possessions that had been conquered from the local population by his great-grandfather Ivar I, according to some reports, the son of Ragnar Lothbrok.

The entire life of the descendants of Ivar I was spent in the struggle for the kingdom of Jorvik in northern Britain. Now with the same restless Vikings, like themselves, now with the local Saxon nobility. They either managed to gain a foothold in this kingdom, then again they yielded to more successful rivals.

At the end of his life in 939, Olaf once again managed to reclaim the disputed kingdom. And it was during this period that he began to mint his own coin in it, a sample of which is before our eyes.

Given the undoubted Danish origin of Olaf Gutfritsson, the parallels drawn willy-nilly become Slavic-Danish and force us to return to the version of the Danish origin of the first Russian princes.

This refers to the alleged identity of the founder of the Russian princely dynasty, Rurik, with Rorik of Friesland (or Jutland).

By the way, Rorik's own uncle - Harald, who was even at one time the king of Jutland - was nicknamed Clack, that is, Raven.

Perhaps (I emphasize, perhaps) the master who created the flask, parts of which were found in Staraya Ladoga (by the way, traces of precious metals were found in it), wanted to cast the figure of a raven, not a falcon.

In general, the artifact found in Staraya Ladoga, in the opinion of most researchers, testifies more to the Scandinavian than to the West Slavic ties of this settlement.

A little more about falcons


In fact, falcon motives periodically manifest themselves in the Russian Middle Ages. It cannot be said that this topic was completely ignored by our ancestors.

One of the most characteristic examples of this kind is the so-called "Pskov tamga" of the 2008th century, found in the same XNUMX in the burial of a noble man in Pskov. Here is a drawing of it:


As you can see, on one side of the tamga there is a princely bident, presumably Yaropolk Svyatoslavich or Svyatopolk Yaropolchich, with a key. And on the other - a completely obvious falcon, crowned with a cross. That is, the falcon separately, the bident separately, without the slightest attempt to combine them.

Considering that such tamgas at that time were not just decorations, but were something like an official certificate testifying to the powers of its bearer, it can be assumed that one side of the tamga contained information about the bearer (falcon), and the other (the princely sign and key) confirmed his authority as a representative of the princely administration. And, possibly, it determined the scope of these powers.

In this case, it turns out that the falcon was a sign of a different, non-princely family, the representative of which was a buried man.

conclusions


Let's summarize the general results of the study.

Phonetic transformation of the word "Rarog" as well as the word "Rerik" into the word "Rurik" is impossible. While a similar transformation of the Scandinavian name when transferring it into the Slavic language is not only possible, but almost inevitable.

The generic sign of the Rurikovich neither in the form of a bident, nor in the form of a trident, nor in any other forms has and cannot have anything to do with the falcon.

Even seemingly obvious evidence in favor of the connection between the Rurik dynasty and the falcon totem, in fact, gives us only additional grounds to state the already archaeologically confirmed links between the Old Russian and Old Danish states.

Thus, the main arguments presented in the works of the most consistent and authoritative "anti-Normanists" in favor of the hypothesis of Rurik's West Slavic origin must be rejected. The very same hypothesis (already weakly argued) is even more in need of additional proof.

However, in my opinion, those for whom the Slavic origin of Rurik and the glorious feats of arms of our ancestors are an urgent need, regardless of whether they actually took place or not, should not be upset.

To calm them down, I can inform you that Rarog - an ancient Slavic deity, which, according to beliefs, could really take the form of a fiery falcon - was a purely peaceful deity. Namely - the keeper of the hearth. It had nothing to do with feats of arms and military glory. And did not show any aggression. Unless, being angry with careless or impolite owners, he could burn down a house or a village - as necessary. Kinship with this deity delivers as much honor as, for example, kinship with a barn or a kikimora would deliver.

As for the cheer tribe. According to some researchers, they had something like a nickname - "reriki" (in fact, derived from the ancient German word for reeds or reeds, so only the German neighbors called encouraged), that is, supposedly falcons. But they, too, in general, have nothing to be proud of.

Like the other tribes of the Pomor Slavs, as well as parts of the Balts, they could not effectively resist the German aggression. And by the middle of the XII century. finally left historical (and from the political) arena, being subdued (and then assimilated) by the Germanic peoples.

Now their descendants speak German (albeit with some accent) and consider themselves to be Germans.

Their closest modern relatives, who have retained their Slavic identity - the Poles - would undoubtedly be happy with the fact that the founder of the dynasty that ruled Russia for seven hundred years is their closest relative.

However, historical science, unfortunately or fortunately, does not provide them with such an opportunity.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 January 2021 05: 39
    -1
    Bold plus Michael! Thank you!!!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 18 January 2021 10: 15
      0
      all these lies from the trilobite, these are funny and worthless paper / forum rubbish.
      "Scientific" methods, such as - Rorik is not Rurik, but Rurik is a Danish brand-nonsense on vegetable oil. The study that the coat of arms of a falcon is not the coat of arms of Rurik is there.
      For a full-fledged historical investigation with far-reaching conclusions, it is necessary to take into account ALL facts and artifacts, not to lie or distort. And for this it is necessary to move away from the concept of OI, when events and times are not arranged in a natural order, that is. chronological distortion.
      I cited the research of the historian Anrey Paul in the last article as proof that the Varangians are Vagry from the Vagriya peninsula in Germany, so no one even answered this. But this is a fact.
      There are such historical sources that historians do not pay attention to at all, like the Russian Epics. There Kiev was, just not on the Dnieper, but on the Danube. Russian epics are very different from the OI, therefore they dropped out of historical investigations.

      The Veneds were ousted from the Danube and strange peoples of Hungarians and Romanians were created on the primordially Slavic lands, as well as such a very strange formation as "ancient Greece" in the Slavic Balkans, the history of which generally contradicts almost all facts and artifacts of the past.
      I have discovered a large number of toponyms in RUS / RUS, as well as Galizms (my name), ORDA toponyms in France, Italy, England and around the world. This is also a fact.

      The fact that Slavic / Venetian / Russian Rus / Russia of the type "lost" to German pressure is not true until, for example, such strange facts of buried cities and other finds of natural catastrophic phenomena are considered, the facts of which have already become too obvious that would not notice them.

      This says that the official story does not tell the truth and even worse, the Official story is created in order to hide the true story.
      1. Trilobite Master
        18 January 2021 13: 09
        +3
        The price of your "discoveries" has long been well known to everyone here. Every time someone tries to disassemble your discharge, only a foul smell remains from them, nothing more. Sometimes, however, they are funny, like Zadornov's, but today is clearly not your day.
        And the fact that no one wants to disassemble your opuses only says that no one is interested in anyone. Alas.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 January 2021 13: 49
          +3
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The price of your "discoveries" has long been well known to everyone here.


          why mine? I refer to quite academic publications of historians, the same Andrei Paul in his work, clearly, on the basis of the previous generation of chroniclers, declares that the Varangians are Slavs from Vagria.
          There are works by historians of the 19th century who studied Russian Epistles. And there are a lot of things that do not intersect with your history. For example, the Mongols come on ships, this also does not climb your gates. But questions remain and answer only with defamation and gnashing of teeth is no longer possible, because what becomes clear, what is OI, what is hiding.



          As for the fact that your nose perceives freshness, for a stench, then this is already a problem for your nose, but how else can a trilobite perceive reality?
          1. Trilobite Master
            18 January 2021 14: 55
            +1
            Pyzhikov is only interesting as fiction. But I better read Pikul, for example. As for the rest, there are different wagras, etc. - for me this is a long passed stage, I see no reason to return to this. But you dig if you like.
            Until then, think about where the name Rüstringen came from. smile
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 18 January 2021 15: 36
              +1
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Pyzhikov - interesting only as fiction


              do not they squint from lies yet? Don't measure yourself.
              Pyzhikov is a doctor of historical sciences, professor. Is there any need for him to mislead?
              The truth is what is good, then, as one said: "the truth is easy and pleasant to speak." Pyzhikov has a confirmation for his every thought - a link to sources.
              1. Trilobite Master
                18 January 2021 16: 05
                +3
                Pyzhikov is the only doctor of sciences who carries such crap. All other PhDs say almost exactly the opposite. Well, well, the family is not without its black sheep, the family of professional historians, apparently, is no exception, unfortunately. If the scientific regalia of the authors is of such value to you, then it is foolish of you to ignore the rest.
                By the way, check the links to its sources - you will be surprised. Well, the use of epics and other works of art as historical sources when building an evidence base in the course of historical research can only be afforded in the absence of evidence or simply in the case of a mental disorder. What takes place in the case of Pyzhikov - decide for yourself.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 18 January 2021 16: 33
                  +1
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Pyzhikov is the only doctor of sciences who carries such crap. All other PhDs say almost exactly the opposite.


                  for example, what Pyzhikov refers to

                  ILYA MUROMETS AND BATY BATYEVICH

                  Over the sea, sea blue,
                  Because of the blue sea, because of the Black,
                  Batu the king, son of Batuyevich, rose
                  With his son, with Tarakash,
                  With his beloved son-in-law, with Ulyushk.
                  The dog collected the strength of three years,
                  Forces of three years and three months;
                  The son had forty thousand strength,
                  The son-in-law had forty thousand strength,
                  There were forty kings alone, princes,
                  Forty kings, princes.

                  185

                  A dog came up under the capital Kiev city,
                  The dog mated damask anchors,
                  Produced silk sheims,
                  I washed out oak gangways,
                  I went out on the steep-red coast,
                  Tore apart the white and canvas tent,
                  I put an oak table in the tent,


                  So Baty the dog appeared from across the sea and sniffed damask anchors. If it is not clear, then we are talking about ships.

                  Good fellows gathered,
                  They sat on their good horses,
                  Brothers went across the Danube River.
                  Brothers drive up to the Danube River:
                  The first to jump was his nephew Samson Kolyvanovich.
                  Skidivshis mired in the middle of the river.
                  Uncle Samson Kolyvanovich jumped up,
                  He pulled out his nephew and with a horse.
                  All the heroes have moved.
                  We drove up to the capital city of Kiev,


                  http://feb-web.ru/feb/byliny/texts/rf1/rf1-1842.htm

                  so the city of Kiev was on the Danube River or somewhere nearby.

                  These are the sources that Pyzhikov referred to, and if other historians do not see this, then it is necessary either to an ophthalmologist or to room 6
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    18 January 2021 18: 24
                    +4
                    Here is a typical example of how fiction distorts real historical reality. But you have to choose which world to live in.
                    Personally, I prefer the harsh and ruthless reality to beautiful tales of the greatness of our ancestors.
                    The late Pyzhikov was far from being feeble-minded, just in our world everyone earns as much as they can. For Pyzhikov, you and people like you were just a food supply, with which I sincerely congratulate you. Well, that, he lived well at your expense and died in satiety and contentment.
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 January 2021 19: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Here is a typical example of how fiction distorts real historical reality. But you have to choose which world to live in.
                      Personally, I prefer the harsh and ruthless reality to beautiful tales of the greatness of our ancestors.


                      Here's the hilarity then, do you prefer reality? Yes, but you again confused the objective reality and the paper reflection of this reality. Bylins are fiction for you, but the PVL-Radziwill Chronicle is a 100% reflection of reality?
                      But there in the Radziwill Chronicle the pages were torn out and rearranged in places. And there is no account of any absurdities: I have already said that, for example, the Vistula River, where the Poles lived until the 19th century, was called Vistula.

                      And in the Annals of Rashid ad Dina there is generally a bacchanalia. There is a FULL edition of the times of the USSR - without illustrations, and then once there were editions with illustrations: where does it just come from?
                2. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 19 January 2021 15: 25
                  +5
                  Michael, only now I was able to read your work.
                  Yesterday I could not enter the section: "history". Perhaps the Fomenkovites deliberately did not let them in?
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    19 January 2021 17: 27
                    +2
                    Hello Vera.
                    I will not be surprised about the Fomenkovites. smile
                    There were a lot of them here yesterday, some kind of invasion, simple. Or maybe it was fate that kept you - they would minus along with everyone. smile
      2. andrew42
        andrew42 18 January 2021 14: 09
        +4
        It is useless to appeal to trilobites. There is one approach. turn another "inconvenient" artifact in your hands, date it, and stick it into your favorite anti-Slavic concept. A step to the right - a step to the left - execution on the spot. The fact that the people were previously called by the more capacious concept of "language", had a culture, at least everyday, is not, not interesting.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 January 2021 14: 15
          +2
          Quote: andrew42
          It is useless to appeal to trilobites.


          There is a good parallel about this fabulist Krylov and the inhabitants of this forum - Monkey and glasses. Where to put glasses, monkey? And nowhere, only to smash to smithereens.

          Fable Monkey and glasses read

          The monkey is weak with old eyes;
          And at people she heard,
          That this evil is not yet so big a hand:
          Only it is necessary to get Glasses.
          She took out the half-dozen glasses with herself;
          Twirls Points and syak:
          Then to temyu they will be pressed, then they will be pinched on the tail,
          Then they sniff them, then water them;
          Points do not work in any way.
          “Ugh abyss!” She says, “and he
          Who listens to all the people of the vrat:
          All about points only I lied;
          And the hair is useless in them. "
          The monkey here with vexation and with sadness
          About the stone so they were enough,
          That only the splashes sparkled.

          laughing
          https://deti-online.com/basni/basni-krylova/martyshka-i-ochki/
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 18 January 2021 14: 30
            +3
            "The land of the Romans is great, but they are all climbing up to us! For the sake of our children, and our grandchildren, we will present our Faith to the Romans!" ("Primordial Rus", the movie, of course, but as it is said!) Frankly speaking, we have already gotten these creeping steps to write down the Slavs as primitive Untermenschs - a huge number of tribes, clans without a unifying Culture, without the ability to self-organize, technologically backward, praying to stumps, without culture of military / weapons, reverently grabbing crumbs of culture from the hands of the Scandinavians, Greeks, Turks and "Khazars". Soon we will reach the point that Vologda will also be declared a Finno-Ugric, - the next step is not far off. And with the "Finno-Ugric" then you can not stand on ceremony at all. The main question is not where and when what was found, pasted over with tags and placed under glass, but in HOW it was interpreted, HOW it was built into the world outlook, and for what purposes.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 18 January 2021 16: 44
              -2
              Quote: andrew42
              Soon we will reach the point that Vologda will also be declared a Finno-Ugric, - the next step is not far off. And with the "Finno-Ugric" then you can not stand on ceremony at all.


              Duc, that there is Vologda, if the word Moscow is a Finnish word, because the ending is _va_, so if you please move back again.

              It's all about the coins. I read the archaeologist Sarionidi, who excavated the Kushan kingdom, so he openly said there: "It's not clear with the dating of all this good, COIN IS NEEDED" And the coin of course was found urgently and it was Roman, so all the finds were shoved to the Romans in their "time".

              So Trilobite too: "Here is Olafson's coin, therefore the falcon is not a Slavic symbol" so they twist our brains, they call it historical science.
              1. Nyrobsky
                Nyrobsky 18 January 2021 21: 32
                +2
                Quote: Bar1

                Duc, that there is Vologda, if the word Moscow is a Finnish word, because the ending is _va_, so if you please move back again.

                Nonsense that they are trying to link with toponymy, using the Finno-Ugric "Va" (water) as an argument.
                If you really walk like that, why waste time on trifles? laughing Salvador and Ekwador, this is also a Finno-Ugric land because in the Komi Republic there are villages with the names Tydor, Kozhmudor, Xingdor... Brothers of Latinos and Finno Ugrians ?! You can expand the geography of Madagas a little morect - Syktyvct(it's very close). If at all to set a goal and complete all disputes on history, then one must accept one fact for all - everything from Adam and Eve, that is, brothers and sisters. hi
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 18 January 2021 22: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Nyrobsky
                  If you really want to walk like that, why waste time on trifles - Salvador and Ecuador, this is also a Finno-Ugric land, because in the Komi Republic there are villages with the names Tydor, Kozhmudor, Sindor.


                  is _door_ also belonging to the Finnish language?
                  As for El Salvador and Ecuador, there in Latin America in the 18th century there were such place names as
                  -Daryen
                  -Darien Bay
                  -River Darien / Daria
                  and of course, how not to remember a fabulous country full of gold and riches
                  -El Dorado
                  apparently in the present Venezuela it is really very good there

                  1719 Wischer map



                  names on Daria a lot of peace, we have
                  -Obdoria
                  -Condoria
                  -Amu Daria
                  -Cheese Daria
                  -Red Gift
                  -Tartary-Dardaria-Big Darius
                  1. Nyrobsky
                    Nyrobsky 18 January 2021 22: 16
                    +4
                    Quote: Bar1
                    is _door_ also belonging to the Finnish language?

                    Yes Timur, "dor" in Finno-Ugric means - extreme, outskirts, at the edge ...
                    Quote: Bar1
                    -Obdorand I

                    "Obdor" - in Finno-Ugric it means "located near" ...
                    Toponymy is certainly a convenient discipline, but using it as a reinforced concrete argument is a very dubious occupation.hi
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 January 2021 22: 23
                      0
                      Quote: Nyrobsky
                      Yes Timur, "dor" in Finno-Ugric means - extreme, outskirts, at the edge ..


                      we will not believe them.

                      Quote: Nyrobsky
                      Toponymy is certainly a convenient discipline, but using it as a reinforced concrete argument is a very dubious occupation.


                      maybe, but in order to choose the right direction of search, knowledge of philology and etymology helps a lot. And even not so, good knowledge of the Russian language, first of all, helps.
                      1. Nyrobsky
                        Nyrobsky 18 January 2021 23: 08
                        +3
                        Quote: Bar1
                        maybe, but in order to choose the right direction of search, knowledge of philology and etymology helps a lot.

                        Toponymy, philology, etymology, combined with archeology, of course, can give a hint to the search for truth, yes, but you have to dig a lot. On the basis of one found fragment with feathers, to draw far-reaching conclusions, as the author did, is somehow too rash. yes
                  2. Akuzenka
                    Akuzenka 19 January 2021 17: 24
                    0
                    You forgot about Dauria!
            2. Connor MacLeod
              Connor MacLeod 19 January 2021 05: 56
              +5
              Nobody records Slavs in any untermensch! What is this nonsense? Are you interested in the history of the Eastern Slavs without Scandinavian and Turkic influences? Please - Polotsk land in the XNUMXth century. An interesting period during which Polotsk developed independently of both the Vikings and the Khazars. Take scientific evidence and research. There is a lot of material. Explore archaeological data, compare with data from written sources, etc., etc. Do quality research and strike a powerful blow against the Normanists, Turkists or whoever you don't like there! Why is it necessary to slide into pseudo history and Dolboslavia?
              1. Trilobite Master
                19 January 2021 11: 28
                +6
                Quote: Connor Macleod
                Polotsk land in the XNUMXth century.

                However, the names of Rogvolod and Rogneda hardly indicate that there were no Scandinavians there ...
                1. Connor MacLeod
                  Connor MacLeod 20 January 2021 12: 42
                  0
                  Even if they existed, then this is already the X century. Archeology says that in the XNUMXth century the Scandinavians were completely dispensed with. The Scandinavian presence appears in the X century, and then mainly in the Pskov and Smolensk regions, with Polotsk it is not clear. But the fact is that until the XNUMXth century Krivichi stood alone with a fairly developed trade and crafts. Not only that, they probably attacked the Scandinavians. The Scandinavian settlements in Ladoga burned in the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries. The Rurik settlement appears most likely as an outpost to protect Ladoga and the Volga-Baltic trade route from the raids of the Krivichi from the southwest.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    20 January 2021 14: 05
                    +1
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    Even if they existed, then this is already the X century

                    Well, okay, but what about this then?
                    In summer 862, the power of Rurik came to power and was given to his husband by his city: To Polotesk, to Rostov, to another Bulozero.

                    And in general, according to the chronicle, the Krivichi took a direct part in the "vocation of the Varangians", so they knew who it was and how to use them. smile
                    Or, for example, the message of Saxon Grammar about the capture by the Danes of a certain "Paltesquia" in some shaggy century? Direct evidence of the most direct contact. smile
                    No, I think, after all, the Krivichi did not live a completely isolated life, but were completely influenced by, in any case, Europe, represented by other Slavs, Scandinavians and Balts - for sure, although, perhaps - here you are right - to a lesser extent, than Slovenia.
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    Scandinavian settlements in Ladoga burned in the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries

                    There are no grounds whatsoever to lay the "blame" for this on the Krivichi. They could burn for completely different reasons, some of which may not be associated with military operations at all. On your part, this is too bold an assumption that cannot be confirmed, and, accordingly, refuted.
                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    The Rurik settlement appears most likely as an outpost to protect Ladoga and the Volga-Baltic trade route from the Krivichi raids from the southwest.

                    Also very bold, given that we have no data on such raids. I think Novgorod is just a safer place and is conveniently located - it blocks both the Volga and Dnieper routes and is safe from the sea - the Volkhov rapids, together with Ladoga as a fortress, protect it.
                    1. Connor MacLeod
                      Connor MacLeod 20 January 2021 14: 41
                      0
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Well, okay, but what about this then?
                      In summer 862, the power of Rurik came to power and was given to his husband by his city: To Polotesk, to Rostov, to another Bulozero.

                      And in general, according to the chronicle, the Krivichi took a direct part in the "calling of the Varangians", so they knew who it was and how to use them

                      This is the legend of the XNUMXth century, recorded in the XII, which has come down to us in the XIV lists. I think it's worth treating him with some skepticism.

                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Or, for example, the message of Saxon Grammar about the capture by the Danes of a certain "Paltesquia" in some shaggy century? Direct evidence of the most direct contact.

                      In what particular century? If in X it is quite plausible, at this time the expansion of the Vikings to the south just begins.

                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      No, I think, after all, the Krivichi did not live a completely isolated life, but were completely influenced by, in any case, Europe, represented by other Slavs, Scandinavians and Balts - for sure, although, perhaps - here you are right - to a lesser extent, than Slovenia.

                      By the independent development of the Krivichi, I meant, first of all, political independence, and not the absence of contact with the outside world. Judging by the find in Izborsk, for example, there was international trade. And thank God!

                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      There are no grounds whatsoever to lay the "blame" for this on the Krivichi. They could burn for completely different reasons, some of which may not be associated with military operations at all. On your part, this is too bold an assumption that cannot be confirmed, and, accordingly, refuted.

                      Well, if a Scandinavian settlement burns down and a Slavic settlement appears in its place, in this case the conclusions themselves suggest themselves.

                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Also very bold, given that we have no data on such raids. I think Novgorod is just a safer place and is conveniently located - it blocks both the Volga and Dnieper routes and is safe from the sea - the Volkhov rapids, together with Ladoga as a fortress, protect it.

                      Well, from whom were the Scandinavians to defend themselves from the north? From the finougri chtoli? The fact is that the fortress is placed on the border with hostile neighbors. In the XNUMXth century, Novgorod defended Scandinavian Ladoga from the Slavs. At a later time, on the contrary, Ladoga defended Russian Novgorod from the Scandinavians.
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        20 January 2021 14: 55
                        +2
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Under the independent development of the Krivichi, I meant, first of all, political independence

                        Sorry, I misunderstood.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        This is the legend of the XNUMXth century, recorded in the XII, which has come down to us in the XIV lists. I think it's worth treating him with some skepticism.

                        Probably. But this is the little that we have. In any case, in order to reject this chronicle message as unreliable, grounds are required.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        In what century was it?

                        In this case, Grammar wrote about earlier times - about King Frodo, this is roughly, century VII ...
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Well, if a Scandinavian settlement burns down and a Slavic settlement appears in its place,

                        Surprised.
                        Lyubshanskoe settlement, as if, is older than Ladoga for a hundred years.
                2. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 18: 25
                  -1
                  Quote: Trilobite Master

                  However, the names of Rogvolod and Rogneda hardly indicate that there were no Scandinavians there ...

                  Yes Yes Yes. Names: Avvakum, Avdey, Anna, Benjamin, Gabriel, Elizabeth, Elisha etc. hardly testifies to the fact that there (that is, with us) there were no Jews.
              2. andrew42
                andrew42 19 January 2021 13: 22
                +2
                But I see just a steady tendency towards this very "recording". Not indiscriminately, of course not. Quiet glanders, step by step. A whole "honest company" has been "artifacting" this for several years now. As the saying goes, "rubbish is collected here not in order to sweep it out of the hut, but to throw it in the owner's face."
      3. kalibr
        kalibr 18 January 2021 18: 28
        +4
        Quote: Bar1
        to hide the true story.

        What for? Now I will write that there was no Battle on the Ice. Well, I don't remember him. And everything else ... It was not. But I learned that the Russians lived where Paris was. I found out, yes ... But on the basis of this, will my pension be raised or offered a piece of the Eiffel Tower? Or my sleep will improve, that our women rinsed their husbands' underpants in the Seine. And I don't care where it was, the main thing is that the washing machine would work today.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 January 2021 19: 37
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          What for?


          Well, then, that there were real rulers of the world, and then intriguers seized power and rewrote history and now they criminally use all the benefits, that's why they seize power.
          Quote: kalibr
          Did not have. But I learned that the Russians lived where Paris was. I found out, yes ... But on the basis of this, will my pension be raised or offered a piece of the Eiffel Tower?


          you can, of course, live like a vegetable, not remembering kinship, but that's why a person differs from meaningless creatures, that in addition to animal needs he also needs spiritual food, as well as such a thing as memory, so as not to forget his mistakes and, most importantly, his victories and this is not a pension or the Eiffel Tower, which is built from Russian spare parts.
      4. sniperino
        sniperino 19 January 2021 00: 15
        +2
        Quote: Bar1
        Slavic / Venetian / Russian
        The Veneds, it seems, are not Slavs, but a separate Indo-European ethnos, intermediate between the Slavs and the Germans.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 19 January 2021 02: 56
          +1
          Quote: sniperino
          The Veneds, it seems, are not Slavs, but a separate Indo-European ethnos, intermediate between the Slavs and the Germans.


          between the Germans and the Slavs, you can only shove the Jews.
          According to the descriptions of Herodotus and Roman historians, the Wends are: Sklavens and Antes, while the Sklovens and Antes are the type of Proto-Slavs.
          According to the historian Jordan: the Vendians are the Slavs.
          Finns and Estonians malign Russians with Wends.
      5. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 00: 29
        +5
        Quote: Bar1
        There are such historical sources that historians generally do not pay attention to, like Russian Epistles.

        You have very strange ideas about historical sources. According to the Old Testament, do you want to try to justify the origin of life on earth?
        Quote: Bar1
        Kiev was there, just not on the Dnieper, but on the Danube.

        Yes, yes, that's exactly what it says in PVL. ))) Various artifacts of those years, the latest fake?
        Quote: Bar1
        The fact that Slavic / Venetian / Russian Rus / Russia of the type "lost" to German pressure is not true until, for example, such strange facts of buried cities are considered ...

        Archaeological evidence, in particular burials, do not tell you anything?

        Quote: Bar1
        This says that the official story does not tell the truth and even worse, the Official story is created in order to hide the true story.

        There is no need to be like "historians" such as Bebik or Fomenko-Nosovsky. It is impossible to hide the true story. Too many artifacts would have to be destroyed or forged. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of artifacts from different parts of Europe and Asia.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 19 January 2021 03: 12
          +1
          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          You have very strange ideas about historical sources. According to the Old Testament, do you want to try to justify the origin of life on earth?


          not for me: epics are an oral folk legend of their history. This is how academic science represents this folk art. This is how you can also call a folk epic. And among the Scandinavians, folk sagas. And no one confuses them with biblical stories.

          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          Yes, yes, that's exactly what it says in PVL. ))) Various artifacts of those years, the latest fake?


          in the PVL it is written that Kiy and his brothers founded the city of Kiev on the Dnieper, not on the Danube, and on the Danube, Kiy cut down the city of Kiev.
          What artifacts? In Kiev, there is not a single house of the 17th century except St. Sophia of the 17-18th century


          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          There is no need to be like "historians" such as Bebik or Fomenko-Nosovsky. It is impossible to hide the true story. Too many artifacts would have to be destroyed or forged. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of artifacts from different parts of Europe and Asia.


          I don’t know about the Bebik, but the historians Fomenko and Nosovsky are rarely mistaken.
          As for the artifacts, everything is simple: archaeologists take, for example, the Kushan kingdom and date it by one suspicious coin.
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 19 January 2021 13: 03
            +1
            I agree with Bar1. The oral tradition has been preserved for centuries, and its share is several times greater than the artifacts that everyone juggles with. Artifacts are the essence of "beads", and without a "thread" it is just a warehouse of a junk speculator. Otherwise, throw stones at the same Schliemann, who tried to dig out his Troy, based on the notes drawn by no means Homer himself, who, in turn, is also not far from a contemporary of the Trojan War. (The question of whether Hisarlik is the legendary Troy is not considered by me here, since it is offtopic).
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 19 January 2021 16: 12
              +1
              Quote: andrew42
              Otherwise, throw stones at the same Schliemann, who tried to dig out his Troy, - based on the notes written by not Homer himself


              about Troy and Schliemann, about everything is very ambiguous.
              There are MANY medieval maps where the name Troy is quietly present on the maps.



              Here is a map from 1696. French, where it is clearly and unequivocally seen that the city of Troy is quite present at this time. But already by the 18th century, for some reason, the city of Troy disappeared. But then Schliemann with such maps was not at all difficult to find this three, because in Turkey there are all sorts of ruins - at every step.
              As for Schliemann himself: in general, he is a thief and while in the Russian service he robbed the Russian army. Then, having become rich, he began to make his "discoveries".
              By the way, on these ruins it was not at all written that it was the city of Troy, that's how archaeologists work.
              1. andrew42
                andrew42 19 January 2021 16: 40
                -1
                I am aware of the "creative path" of Herr Heinrich Schliemann. I saw about the presence of the name "Troy" on the maps, but did not focus my attention. Not a trump card to beat them (it is too easy to reduce to Troas, as one of the stable options for naming a geographic area). Above I tried to draw attention to the fact that no one branded Schliemann a "Trojan-Tartarian", guided by "dubious Homeric writings" (and even Homer?), And for some reason the Iliad was not considered a "dubious source" by the then OI-scholars ... Although Schliemann was baptized as an adventurer. This is because the Iliad is not about the Slavs, but about the "civilized" Greeks (who destroyed Mycenae and Tiryns). Greek myth-making, for example, should evoke in us awe and certainty of real events, one way or another reflected there, albeit in a distorted form. Slavic is initially subjected to defamation and outright banter. Not allowed ! I’m wondering if A.S. Pushkin would have challenged Trilobite to a duel - to avenge “fairy tales from Arina Rodionovna,” or would it have cost? :)
      6. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 19 January 2021 17: 23
        +2
        I have discovered a large number of toponyms in RUS / RUS, as well as Galizms (my name), ORDA toponyms in France, Italy, England and around the world. This is also a fact.
        It has been revealed by me that Stalingrad, a primordially Soviet city, was actually founded on the territory of present-day France in ancient times, but over time it was moved to the Volga. Indeed, in many cities of France, streets with a name bearing the name of Stalingrad have survived. And the city of Stalingrad itself has not survived in France. Am I not handsome !!!!!
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 19 January 2021 17: 47
          0
          Quote: AKuzenka
          Am I not handsome !!!!!


          Of course not. It was necessary to find the city of Stalingrad in France, and since they did not find it, then another version is that the city of Tsaritsyn / Stalingrad / Volgograd is located on the Volga.
          But I found that in the 16-17 centuries on old maps the Rhone river had the name Rosna, and had tributaries Sosna and Don. And the Rhine river had its source the Rusa river. And the Seine river was called Segna before. Se Gan. And the Dordogne-Dar Don river had the Don river as a tributary. And in France there are the Seret and Tech rivers. And the Po river was formerly called the Tartar river.
          I have these maps. Do you have Stalingrad in France?
          1. Akuzenka
            Akuzenka 19 January 2021 18: 20
            +2
            I have these maps. Do you have Stalingrad in France?
            Pancake. You destroyed me !!!!! crying Good. Now I'll go and draw this map, I'll take some Frenchman as a basis. No, better than Pythagoras! It cannot be that a geometer (earth measurement is the same), and did not draw maps! And I will find (necessarily), on the territory of present-day France, Stalingrad! Well, or something similar in sound. Because I’m not a linguist, I can’t come right off the bat .., oh find it! But I will find it! Now I'll pump up another half a hundred and I will definitely find it! drinks Then I will definitely be KravcheGom!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 19 January 2021 18: 25
              0
              you do not seem to be a serious person.
              1. Akuzenka
                Akuzenka 19 January 2021 18: 30
                +3
                How can you be serious if this is a hypothesis. The proofs are adjusted to the result, like the tasks of the Losers. Where is the thoughtful analysis? Where is the source of the hypothesis? Because specializing in geophysicist (all geology is solid hypotheses) I will say: If there is no reliance on factual material (in large quantities and confirmed in different places of finds), I can fantasize, whatever.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 19 January 2021 18: 36
                  0
                  land physicist means. Are you aware of the buried cities? The building of the Polytechnic Institute in Moscow or the house on Bauman Street in Kazan, haven't you seen these excavations? Who could tell normally what is going on here?
                  1. Akuzenka
                    Akuzenka 19 January 2021 18: 45
                    +2
                    Of course I did. I studied at KSU and I know about the geological history of Kazan. And a little about the archaeological. In a few words: the cultural layer is growing, cataclysms add precipitation (sand, gravel, siltstone, pelite), and also mistakes of builders (they chose the wrong place for a heavy building, there is such a discipline - engineering geology). And alternatives, as it were, are softer, they pose questions (dumb, to be honest), without trying to understand the subject. And the answers to them are even more idiotic than the questions. Although interesting questions come across. Here is a search for answers and their finding, allows you to mock alternatives.
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 19 January 2021 18: 49
                      -2
                      does the cultural layer mean?
                      This cannot be, there is a layer of clay, what kind of cultural layer? Everything is clear with you.
                      1. Akuzenka
                        Akuzenka 19 January 2021 18: 53
                        +2
                        This cannot be, there is a layer of clay, what kind of cultural layer? Everything is clear with you.
                        Get off on the dirt side of the road (simplified model). Take a shovel and dig, there you will find many products interspersed with introduced sediments. On a city scale, the picture is a little different, but only in the last 50 years, since hard coatings appeared en masse. All of this forms a CONTINUOUS cultural layer as long as the city is alive.
                      2. Bar1
                        Bar1 19 January 2021 18: 58
                        0
                        yes, but the cities that are not cleaned, or what? Do not pavements sweep, do they take out garbage? If we take Moscow from the beginning of the 20th century, then the level of roads in, say, Tverskaya is the same as today. For a hundred years, what has no cultural layer accumulated? It used to accumulate, but now it doesn’t. This is the kind of "science" that spoils all relationships.
                      3. Akuzenka
                        Akuzenka 19 January 2021 19: 03
                        +1
                        It used to accumulate, but now it doesn’t. This is the kind of "science" that spoils all relationships.
                        Stay in your own little world, it is cozy and good there. Everything is explained there and there is no doubt that everything is lying to you and only you know the truth.
                      4. Bar1
                        Bar1 19 January 2021 19: 03
                        0
                        we'll figure it out without you ...
                    2. Akuzenka
                      Akuzenka 19 January 2021 19: 15
                      +1
                      If we take Moscow from the beginning of the 20th century, then the level of roads in, say, Tverskaya is the same as today. For a hundred years, what has no cultural layer accumulated?
                      You don't even know how the street has changed. Tverskaya for 100 years! laughing It became 4 times wider, tram lines appeared and disappeared on it, many new houses were located in the place of old lanes, along Tverskaya, old ones were demolished and now there is a ROAD! Wipers not swept away ?! Ah, scoundrels! And how has the relief of Tverskaya changed? No way? The wipers were grinding!? !!!! I'm sorry for you, sincerely. Unless, of course, you are a simpleton.
                    3. Bar1
                      Bar1 19 January 2021 19: 33
                      +1
                      wider, nothing to do with it, the conversation is not about that.
                      Here are the 30 years of the 20th century, the building of the Moscow City Council



                      but already in 1939 the building was excavated for a whole floor and even more.



                      What kind of "cultural layer" has grown so much since 1782 so it cannot be. And why since the thirties of the 20th century this building has not again grown into a "cultural layer, 90 years have passed"?
                      Clear?
                    4. Fat
                      Fat 20 January 2021 00: 56
                      +2
                      Don't try to argue about century-old street layouts. There are many abnormally incomprehensible things here. In each "case" individually. And if you press on "understandable", then certainly not an argument never. Are you a builder?
                2. Fat
                  Fat 20 January 2021 00: 48
                  +1
                  Don't be fooled, Timur. Russia charged me, as the owner of the land. The land is yours, and the dug-out skull is the state ... For me, God forgive me, it's time to plant spicy herbs. And then a commission of rednecks for a year ...
        2. Akuzenka
          Akuzenka 19 January 2021 18: 49
          +1
          Who could tell normally what is going on here?
          There is a channel on YouTube - digger Daniil Davydov, there is a lot of interesting things about underground Moscow (and not only). Very interesting and skillful storyteller! Nowadays it is a great rarity. Highly recommend.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 18 January 2021 14: 37
    +4
    Bold minus, sorry not to deliver. And in general, what the hell is not written in Danish or Norwegian? - This is how modern Gardarika should speak after the domination of the Scandinavian elite.
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 08: 58
      +2
      Quote: andrew42
      Bold minus, sorry not to deliver. And in general, what the hell is not written in Danish or Norwegian? - This is how modern Gardarika should speak after the domination of the Scandinavian elite.

      Why did neither England nor France speak Norwegian?
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 19 January 2021 12: 43
        0
        Britain did not speak Norwegian / Danish for 2 reasons. First, the descendants of the Vikings, simplified in the person of Godwin of Wessex and Harold II, identified themselves as the British (an old trend for the consolidation of kingdoms) and distanced themselves from newcomers. Secondly, these gentlemen were swept away by the Normans, so the elite of England began to speak Old French, and for several centuries. As for France (Normandy, Aquitaine), he is not strong in knowledge, obviously everything was more complicated there. However, the fact that in a couple of generations the descendants of the Vikings became "Northern French" (albeit Normans) is beyond doubt, for Guillaume Bastard's language was Old French without any doubt!
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 12: 59
          +1
          You wrote everything correctly, but tell me why then Kievan Rus had to speak Norwegian? As for the Norman theory, it seems to me more convincing today, with a better evidence base. You can even look at trade agreements with Byzantium, there are very few Slavic names. And so, wait and see, all these discoveries are still ahead. After all, the site of the Kulikovo battle, for example, was unequivocally identified and archaeological materials were found there quite recently.
        2. Bar1
          Bar1 19 January 2021 16: 50
          0
          Quote: andrew42
          Britain did not speak Norwegian / Danish for 2 reasons. First, the descendants of the Vikings, simplistically represented by Godwin of Wessex and Harold II, identified themselves as the British (an old trend for the consolidation of kingdoms) and distanced themselves from the newcomers


          and how could they speak English, if by that time there were such fame and names on the maps and in the available literature.
          -London-bosom of the Don
          and it is because the river
          -Temza-tem / den / don_za, replacement of consonants according to the rule of permutations of voiceless and voiced consonants.
          -Ivego-Walter Scott is just Russian Ivanko.
          -Escalibur - the famous sword of King Arthur
          -Escalibur-chop the other way around.
          so
          Ivanko / Ivanhoe tied his chopper / Excalibur to his belt, saddled Sivka Burka and went to the fair to Lon Don.
          As for the Norwegian language, it was not like that, but there were such languages.
          In modern Norwegian, there are two languages, Bokmål and Nyunorsk.
          There was also the so-called pidging language Russenorsk, a mixture of Russian and Norwegian, now this language is forgotten and no one remembers about it, except for linguists.
          Bokmål is spoken by only a part of the Norwegians, and Newosk was generally created in the 20th century by one linguist.
          What language Norway spoke at that time is unknown.
      2. andrew42
        andrew42 19 January 2021 12: 55
        0
        Here is just an example of a grandiose Norman stamp throughout British culture speaks of how much the trail of the foreign ruling elite is preserved, because even today the lion's share of the English nobility is the descendants of the very Norman robber knights who clamped the English villans in an iron collar 1000 years ago back. In Northern Russia there is no such hint, and there was not. And the attitude towards the Scandinavians was without special reverence and reverence. The same Harold Gardrada shish received Yaroslav's daughter until he became the "Hero of Byzantium" and the king of Norway-Denmark. This is certainly not the time of Rurik, but international relations at the household level are not growing out of empty space. And therefore the Varangians are the Varangians (the sword and shield of the Rurikids), and the Scandinavians are the Scandinavians (nothing more than the mercenaries who have worn out). And by the way, the Vikings quickly assimilated among the Russians, their last mention refers to a fraternal showdown between the surviving Vladimirovichs - between Yaroslav and Mstislav Tmutorokansky.
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 13: 06
          0
          Quote: andrew42
          And therefore the Varangians are the Varangians (the sword and shield of the Rurikids), and the Scandinavians are the Scandinavians (nothing more than the mercenaries who have worn out). And by the way, the Vikings quickly assimilated among the Russians,

          There is no unequivocal answer to the question of who the Varangians were, it is impossible to unambiguously attribute them to any of the existing peoples, there will always be quite powerful counter arguments. Let's wait and see, one thing is certain, that it was not a Scandinavian military conquest.
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 19 January 2021 13: 13
            0
            The Varangians cannot be attributed to one of the existing peoples (in terms of the peoples-heirs) for one simple reason. The habitat of the Varangians (modern Pomerania, Mecklenburg) was destroyed and Germanized, the cities on Rügen were wiped off the face of the earth. The homeland of the Varangians disappeared forever.
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 19 January 2021 13: 15
            0
            Disappeared just like the homeland of the Prussians, Curonians and many others. That is why today "collectors of artifacts" dance with impunity on their bones (figuratively, of course).
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 19 January 2021 13: 31
              +1
              Quote: andrew42
              Disappeared just like the homeland of the Prussians, Curonians and many others. That is why today "collectors of artifacts" dance with impunity on their bones (figuratively, of course).

              Well, why, archaeologists are working, the burial grounds do not disappear anywhere, everything is still ahead. The question, of course, is not simple, but judging by the burial grounds, our ancestors were much poorer than the Germans. I don't know how the Baltic Slavs were. Our ancestors were able to stop the German expansion only during the "Tatar-Mongol yoke". I think there is more than one century of work there, and today it is premature to draw unambiguous conclusions. Not enough data.
          3. andrew42
            andrew42 19 January 2021 13: 34
            +1
            Here the question can be narrowed down. That's what I would like to define exactly, so what kind of "outfit" was not in the Slovenian land at the time of the call of Rurik. This would answer all the riddles. It is unlikely that it was about "decorating the earth." Meanwhile, the "outfit" was the name of the artillery of Muscovy in the time of Ivan Vasilyevich. Most likely it was a question of "dressing up" the weapon people, in the modern sense of the "detachment". Well, who will call a gang of alien weapons to the New City? Why think of our ancestors as idiots? Gostomysl, it turns out, slept and saw how to surrender to the Vikings. - Delirium and nonsense. They called relatives, albeit distant ones, with a strong armed component.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 19 January 2021 08: 32
    +3
    Vladislav, someone disagrees with you
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 18 January 2021 05: 39
    +11
    Well, now, according to another version, the Danes are our ancestors, how far the interpretation of some historians goes in our history. smile
    1. marchcat
      marchcat 18 January 2021 05: 59
      +12
      It seems that almost all the peoples of Europe existed, but the Slavs, in these interpretations, did not exist at all. Why this is being done is perhaps clear: so that the Slavs would never know their real history.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 18 January 2021 06: 34
        -6
        Quote: marchcat
        It seems that almost all the peoples of Europe existed, but the Slavs, in these interpretations, did not exist at all. Why this is being done is perhaps clear: so that the Slavs would never know their real history.

        It's very simple. They flew from another planet in order to protect it from the alien-bogus. Read more in the Slavic-Aryan Vedas.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 18 January 2021 07: 18
        +2
        Quote: marchcat
        Why this is being done is perhaps clear: so that the Slavs would never know their real history.

        Why is it necessary that they never know the real story? Will it add them, our salary? Will he allow someone's land to be claimed?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 18 January 2021 07: 47
          -2
          In one of the battles of the second Great Assa on the aforementioned Line, the Whitemar spaceship carrying immigrants, including those from Ingard-earth, was damaged and was forced to land on Midgard-earth. Whitemara sank to the northern continent, which was called by the star travelers Daariya (Gift of the Gods, Gift to Ariyam).

          On Vaitmar there were representatives of four Clans of the allied Lands of the Great Race: Clans of Aryans - h'Aryans and da'Aryans; Clans of the Slavs - Russen and Svyatorus. These were people with white skin and a height of more than 2 meters, but had differences in height, hair color, iris color and blood type.

          Da'Aryans had silver (gray, steel) eyes and light blond, almost whitish, hair. The H'Aryans had green eyes and light blond hair. Heavenly (blue, cornflower blue, lake) eye color and hair from whitish to dark blond were in the Svyatoruss. Rassens had fiery (hazel, light brown, yellow) eyes and dark blond hair. The color of the eyes depends on which Sun shone on the people of these Clans on their native Lands in the process of their evolution. The Aryans differed from the Svyatorus and Rassen also in that they were able to recognize where false information (Krivda) and where - Truth. This was due to the fact that the Aryans had the experience of war with the Dark Forces, defending their lands.

          People should know the truth about the Russen and Svyatoruss hi
          1. depressant
            depressant 18 January 2021 09: 13
            +4
            Or like this:

            "The ancestral home of many of our ancestors is the solar system with the Golden Sun in the Hall of the Race. The clans of White people living on the Earths in this solar system call it Dazhdbog-Sun (the modern name is Beta Leo or Denebola). It is called the Yarovelik Golden Sun, it is more brighter in terms of luminous flux emission, size and mass than the Yarilo-Sun.

            Ingard-Earth revolves around the Golden Sun, its orbital period is 576 days. Ingard-Earth has two moons: the Big Moon with an orbital period of 36 days and the Small Moon with a period of 9 days. In the system of the Golden Sun on Ingard-earth, there is biological life, similar to life on Midgard-earth.

            In one of the battles of the second Great Assa on the aforementioned Line, the Whitemar spaceship carrying immigrants, including those from Ingard-earth, was damaged and was forced to land on Midgard-earth. Whitemara sank to the northern continent, which was called by the star travelers Daariya (Gift of the Gods, Gift to Ariyam).

            On Vaitmar there were representatives of four Clans of the allied Lands of the Great Race: Clans of Aryans - h'Aryans and da'Aryans; Clans of the Slavs - Russen and Svyatorus. These were people with white skin and a height of more than 2 meters, but had differences in height, hair color, iris color and blood type.

            Da'Aryans had silver (gray, steel) eyes and light blond, almost whitish, hair. The H'Aryans had green eyes and light blond hair. Heavenly (blue, cornflower blue, lake) eye color and hair from whitish to dark blond were in the Svyatoruss. Rassens had fiery (hazel, light brown, yellow) eyes and dark blond hair. The color of the eyes depends on which Sun shone on the people of these Clans on their native Lands in the process of their evolution. The Aryans differed from the Svyatorus and Rassen also in that they were able to recognize where false information (Krivda) and where - Truth. This was due to the fact that the Aryans had the experience of war with the Dark Forces, defending their lands.

            After the repair of Vaitmara, part of the crew flew away (that is, returned “to heaven”), and some remained on Midgard-earth, since they liked the planet, and many of them had “earthly” children by the time of departure. Those who remained on Midgard-earth began to be called Asami. Ases are the descendants of the Heavenly Gods living on Midgard-earth. And the territory of their further settlement began to be called Asia (later Asia), since it was originally settled by the Ases. After resettlement, the names "Russenia", "Rasichi" also appeared.

            This was followed by the resettlement of the people of the White Race from Ingard-earth to Midgard-earth, to Daariya. The people who migrated to Midgard-Earth remembered their ancient ancestral home and called themselves nothing more than "Dazhdbog's grandchildren," that is, the descendants of those Clans of the Great Race that lived under the radiance of Dazhdbog-Sun. Those living on Midgard-earth began to be called the Great Race, and those who remained to live on Ingard-earth - the Ancient Race. "

            Hmmm ...
            I'm not a fan of Darwin, but this is somehow too much. Modern science fiction writers rest, or smoke nervously, or what else is supposed to be done in such cases. I like all this, of course, but it's not an argument.
            On the other hand, no matter what fantasy you take, it lags behind reality laughing )))
            And if this is really so, a question for the ancestors:
            - Was it really impossible to choose a place with a more decent CLIMATE?!? fool
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 18 January 2021 09: 44
              +1
              Good morning, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi
              Here in the same text it is written that the center of the Svyatoruss and Rassenovs was the city of Asgard, which is now called - ... no, not Sochi, not Stavropol, not Yalta and not even Voronezh, but ... taram ... Omsk fellow
              The best climate, next to the sea, and most importantly - all trade routes passed through it laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 13: 36
                +2
                that the center of the Svyatorus and Rassen was the city of Asgard

                Albert, if we take names and toponomics ... what You know, according to Tolkien, the "secret city of the elves" was called .. Gondolin! yes I have two versions: 1. either this common name was given to him by orcs (who have absolutely no love for elves - they say, "the place where bad people live"), 2. or there was a factory of rubber and latex products. laughing
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 18 January 2021 15: 33
                  -2
                  Either the Gondoliers lived there fellow drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 15: 41
                    0
                    Either the Gondoliers lived there

                    The gondolier bawling gondoliers were producing latent latex langoliers! fellow drinks
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 04
                      -2
                      The gondolier gondolated, gondolaed, but did not vandalize repeat
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 11
                        +1
                        The gondolier gondolated, gondolaed, but did not vandalize

                        Minnesinger minushers minimize the cutest attitude! wassat (already two minuses have been slapped - to know, our explanations to the patriots-natives of Gondolin are very sickened by our explanations) drinks
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 16: 16
                        +1
                        You don't touch the minnesingers! am
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 22
                        -1
                        You don't touch the minnesingers!

                        Oh, you, damn it, came running, evil minstrel, waving a mandolin! laughing Like, I'll hurt you and all that. fellow Okay I will not! stop Moreover, they removed your plaster cast, you are now dangerous. drinks
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 16: 27
                        +2
                        That's the same!
                        "When I am sober, I am Mumu and Gerasim,
                        And so, I am war and peace! " (FROM)
                      5. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 57
                        +1
                        And so, I am war and peace!

                        I will paraphrase our Leo Nikolayevich Tolstoy, in relation to you: "The mandolin of the people's war has risen, and went to mandolin the foe right and left!" fellow laughing
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 17: 21
                        0
                        Damn, you also call "Stratacaster" a mandolin!
                      7. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 17: 22
                        -1
                        Damn, you also call "Stratacaster" a mandolin!

                        Uh-uh, I don't know what kind of mandolin system you have! stop Thank God, you didn't sing a serenade to me personally! laughing
                        "Stratacaster"

                        Stradakaster sits at my house. Not only is he castrated, he also suffers that the feed is not reported .. he always suffers .. laughing so it turns out - strada-caster. request
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 17: 26
                        +1
                        Mandolin is in Chuvashia, and the minnesingers have a lute! Eh you, pangolin ... crying
                      9. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 17: 32
                        0
                        Mandolin - in Chuvashia

                        In Chuvashia - Tamra (domra). wink there, it turns out, there is a bagpipe - you made me touch the roots and google it. yes Although my grandfather's favorite program was "Play, accordion"! drinks
                        and the minnesingers have a lute

                        Uh-huh, and in Polyarnye Zory - kantele, and everyone feels like a real Väinämäinen laughing especially, as he lets go of the beard, he feels - a straight philosopher-guslar! tongue
                        Eh you, pangolin ..

                        Yes, I remember it was from Ramstein. Gasoline, kerosene, pangolin .. Yes, there was something like that .. what
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 17: 42
                        +1
                        Yeah, but in Polyarnye Zory there is a kantele, and everyone feels like a real Väinemäinen laughing especially, as he lets go of the beard, he feels like a philosopher-guslar!
                        Naturally! For only real poets, subtly feeling the Word, could call the traveling station of Zasheek the sonorous hyperbole "Polyarnye Zori"!
                      11. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 18
                        +2
                        For only real poets, subtly feeling the Word, could call the traveling station of Zasheek the sonorous hyperbole "Polyarnye Zori"!

                        Uh-huh, but on the other hand, we were stuck with real polar baboons, or, as Nikolai Nikolaevich Drozdov says, polebuins. There, it seems, the entire "order" pulled up. Or the society of anonymous minus. laughing
                        However, let's continue:
                        Mandolin - in Chuvashia

                        Based on your logic, I can draw two important conclusions.
                        1. Every Chuvash has a mandolin.
                        2. Everyone who plays the mandolin is a Chuvash.
                        How do you like that, bass-guslar - virtuoso? tongue drinks
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 19 January 2021 10: 23
                        +3
                        And the "Rammstein" repertoire is working. Enchanting!
                      13. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 27
                        +3
                        And the "Rammstein" repertoire is working. Enchanting!

                        Why? This, like him ... Mark Knopfler! In! lol And play only Finnish polka on the kantele! wink

                        Do you fucking play guitars on TV? And we, here, carry microwaves and refrigerators! (free translation)drinks
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 24
    0
    Minimize world decay by cons? ))
  • Keer
    Keer 18 January 2021 18: 18
    +1
    a more decent CLIMATE?!? fool
    Judging by the parameters of the orbit on Ingard-Earth, the beater - babai, so they chose closer to the Arctic Circle, so that they would remind of the house.
  • Fat
    Fat 18 January 2021 11: 34
    +8
    hi Albert. I expected something like this from you. But do not joke about what part of the people sincerely believed. Actually, this text is "an approximate translation into Russian" from the original written by the H'ari runes (karuna), which can be read correctly unless drunk with fly agaric tincture. But the syllable is good - there are such pearls, mom do not cry.
    Much for the fact that this text is a remake. Despite the fact that it is not worth making fun of, there is no way to take it seriously either. Rassen, Svyatoruss, one pusher of this theory has already "flown" (Omsk Theological School EMNIP)
    PS By the way, I still can't understand why this "teaching" is called "Inglism" and what relation it has to Inglings request
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 18 January 2021 15: 38
      0
      Welcome hi
      Probably, the name is connected with the x- and d-Aryans, who spoke in English laughing
      1. Fat
        Fat 18 January 2021 15: 59
        +1
        laughing Who knows how they expressed themselves, except for Father Diya. Maybe they telepathized at all and not only did not speak English, but were silent like fish all the time?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 01
          0
          About the teleportation of Rossen and Khariy to the Bear Land (beyond the Urals, EMNIP) in the Vedas there is laughing It was just before the collapse of the second moon (initially, in their opinion, there were three fellow )
          1. Fat
            Fat 18 January 2021 16: 26
            +3
            More than that. These moons even had names, it seems, Lelya, Fatta and Month. For some reason they did not bang her (moon-month) with their manners. recourse In the course of the "fasci" ("fasc" is a rune of such a huge destructive force) they ran out, and the bad "grays" went underground.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 29
              +3
              laughing
              That's where the name cheese-fetta comes from
              The moon is cheese! It all fits fellow
              1. Fat
                Fat 18 January 2021 16: 50
                +3
                "The moon is usually done in Hamburg; and it is done very badly. I wonder how England will not pay attention to this. A lame barrel makes her, and it is evident that he has no idea about the moon. ... And because of this terrible stench all over the earth, so you have to shut your nose " (C) lol
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 18 January 2021 18: 47
                +1
                So after that, trust such an important matter to the harias. It was necessary to pay attention to the prefix am
  • Bar1
    Bar1 18 January 2021 10: 30
    +6
    Quote: marchcat
    It seems that almost all the peoples of Europe existed, but the Slavs, in these interpretations, did not exist at all. Why this is being done is perhaps clear: so that the Slavs would never know their real history.


    This suggests one thing, that the Venedy / Ruski were just there, and the rest of the peoples are invented formations, such as the Ukrainians.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 18 January 2021 10: 56
    +1
    Quote: marchcat
    It seems that almost all the peoples of Europe existed, but the Slavs, in these interpretations, did not exist at all.

    Do not worry so much. It has long been proven that the Slavs appeared in the Universe exactly 10 ^ -43 seconds later. after the Big Bang. But the Masters of the West are making every effort to hide this knowledge in the dark cellars of the Vatican, because the publication of this fact will certainly undermine their power over planet Earth. After all, then the Slavs will become the only legitimate supermen in the Universe, simply by birthright. And the Masters of the West will become who they really are - Untermensch and will be forced to put on muzzles, put a tsak in their nose and do A "Ku!" Twice, in front of every Slav they meet, and in front of the Russians - as many as four!
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 18 January 2021 15: 43
      +4
      Tartar supercivilization began with Asgard, and will end with the final victory of Svyatorossi over Locke and Fenrir! soldier
  • Trilobite Master
    18 January 2021 13: 24
    +6
    Quote: marchcat
    Such an impression

    Get rid of it urgently. The Slavs were, are and will be for a long time. They have lived and live beautifully for one and a half thousand years and during this time have made a huge contribution to world history, culture, in short, they showed themselves worthily in all aspects of human activity. And in many respects this happened because throughout the entire time of their existence, the Slavs, and in particular, the Russians, constantly contacted with the surrounding peoples, perceived the best that they had, absorbed into themselves and on this basis gave rise to something new, their own , in turn, being "cultural donors" for neighbors.
    I don’t know about you, but personally I am not ashamed of my ancestors, although I do not consider them "the founders of everything" and do not try to attribute to them all the achievements of earthly civilization.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 January 2021 06: 14
    +4
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    Well, now, according to another version, the Danes are our ancestors, how far the interpretation of some historians goes in our history. smile

    Alexey, let's be objective. Our ancestors are Slavs and Finno-Eels who lived in the territory of Ancient Russia.
    The author (Mikhail) only sanctified his view of the origin of the Rurik dynasty, which, by the way, if you follow V. Tatishchev, was originally not entirely Danish (Scandinavian) in origin. Rorik (Rurik) of Jutland was married to the daughter of the Slavic elder Gostomysl. Even if we dismiss this factor, further Slavization of the Norman element is obvious. The third and subsequent princes bear Slavic names (Svyatoslav, Yaropolk, etc.). Further full Russification of the dynasty, with some admixture of other peoples.
    So we are Slavs, Slavs with slanted eyes!
    1. depressant
      depressant 18 January 2021 10: 40
      +4
      Vladislav, for me it is not at all surprising that the Scandinavians of this or that ethnic form, roaming everywhere, climbed into the Russians of the north. They, the Scandinavians, have a maritime climate, milder, that winter horror that we do not have. I fully admit that Rurik was a Scandinavian, but he was the only one of his fellow tribesmen who dared to gain a foothold in our harsh reality. There were no others! I admit, I wrote home: "Guys, it’s so damn good here in winter, what’s happening!"
      But the place where the city of Peter stands, according to climatic features, did not seem disgusting to the same Swedes, but rather familiar. Therefore, at the confluence of the Okhta into the Neva, the city of Nyen was built, with it - the fortress of Nuenskans (Nyenskans, German). And all this happened until Peter I took over. But Peter ordered to dig everything, use the stones, it did not work out to the end, tourists are surprised at the titanic walls, the guides are shyly silent. After all, it is generally accepted that Peter erected his city on a bare spot, as if the factor of a bare swampy place was the only or the main justification for the greatness of St. Petersburg.
      The story with Rurik looks exactly the same. Well, he was a Varangian, so what? On the contrary, you need to shout about it at all corners! Like, you see what ancient and productive ties we have, and you are preparing to fight with us. Rurik was a Varangian, he was not, it is necessary to emphasize that he was. Politics has a lot of guitars.
      1. Trilobite Master
        18 January 2021 13: 38
        +5
        Quote: depressant
        Therefore, at the confluence of the Okhta into the Neva, the city of Nyen was built, with it - the fortress of Nuenskans (Nyenskans, German).

        At the confluence of the Okhta with the Neva in 1300, the Swedes laid a fortress, which they called Landskrona - "The Crown of the Earth". Before that, there was an unsuccessful attempt to establish the same one at the mouth of the Izhora (Battle of the Neva in 1240) and a successful one at the mouth of the Vuoksa (Vyborg, 1292, if I am not mistaken). Vuoksa then flowed into the Gulf of Finland as a main channel, and not into Ladoga. A fortress was not allowed to be built on Izhora, on Okhta they were conquered several times, Vyborg was captured only under Peter in the XNUMXth century.
  • Revolver
    Revolver 18 January 2021 11: 29
    +7
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    Well, now, according to another version, the Danes are our ancestors

    Try to apply for Danish citizenship on this basis. Here are just unlikely to give. No.
  • Trilobite Master
    18 January 2021 13: 13
    +6
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    Danes are our ancestors,

    I do not know where you saw the thesis that the Danes are our (or your) ancestors. Or do you consider yourself a Rurikovich?
    The conversation is only about the fact that the founder of the ruling dynasty may have been from Jutland, nothing more. The state itself did not become Danish from this, and its population continued to remain Slavic and Finno-Ugric.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 18 January 2021 05: 55
    0
    Here are dotted over and ..
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 18 January 2021 06: 42
    +13
    The information space literally exploded with headlines like "Archaeological sensation" or "The coat of arms of Rurikovich was found in Staraya Ladoga."

    Now let's move to the upper left corner. Are you transferred? There, three birds immediately catch the eye. Some in the West believe they are hummingbirds, but our scientists have identified them as wild ducks.
    ...
    On Maria's lap is a book and someone's skull. Now it is difficult to say who posed for the artist. Our art critics will have to puzzle over this. A decanter of some kind of liquid flickers to the left of the skull. What is it? Water, wine or other poison? Unknown! But it tastes good. In general, the picture is striking in its purity. Snow-white lace, the bedspread over the Magdalene all this tells us about the hard work of Spanish laundresses, day and night washing the clothes of the Spanish nobility, mired in luxury, wine and women. Thus, one can consider "The Penitent Mary Magdalene" as a harsh document of that distant era. A document signed by the hand of El Greco, a remarkable artist who died in 1614, who did not live to understand his painting correctly for more than three hundred and sixty years.
    Semyon Altov.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 18 January 2021 10: 31
      +6
      Quote: pmkemcity
      Now let's move to the upper left corner. Are you transferred?


      just like that, it is called -official science.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 18 January 2021 10: 40
        +3
        Quote: Bar1
        just like that, it is called -official science.

        There is a task - we dig! No assignment - no digging! This is for historians, not for the author, obviously just an interested person.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 January 2021 11: 00
          +4
          Quote: pmkemcity
          There is a task - we dig! No assignment - no digging! This is for historians, not for the author, obviously just an interested person.


          yes
          -... but what about your principles?
          -a FSU principles.
        2. Trilobite Master
          18 January 2021 13: 47
          +6
          Quote: pmkemcity
          There is a task - we dig! No assignment - no digging!

          And who gives the task? Tell me, I'll turn to him, maybe they'll give me an assignment - to dig?
          In fact, don't be silly, history is an ordinary science that develops like any other. Like any science, its task is to establish new facts and interpret them. And real historians, believe me, are interested in what will turn out as a result of their research, otherwise, if you know everything in advance, what is the point of researching something?
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 18 January 2021 14: 18
            -1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            who gives the task? Tell me, I'll turn to him, maybe they'll give me an assignment - to dig?


            a little off topic.
            And you jumped to the big star here, and now again, how did you demote? Stanley things are happening on this forum.
          2. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 18 January 2021 15: 22
            -1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            what's the point of researching something?

            Receive royalties.
            real historians, believe me, themselves are interested in what will turn out as a result of their research

            Masters do not philosophize! (The Pokrovsky Gate)
            Like any science, its task is to establish new facts and interpret them.

            I fully agree with the latter, and the facts are established precisely for the "correct interpretation."
            1. Trilobite Master
              18 January 2021 15: 29
              +7
              You, like most, confuse science and journalism. "Correct" interpretation is not science and it is not history. Study history as a science and questions of "correctness" mean absolutely nothing to you.
  • Van 16
    Van 16 18 January 2021 07: 07
    +4
    It was interesting to read, it was written well, calmly, and clearly. Thank you!
    I was in Veliky Novgorod twice, but I never made it to Ladoga, although I was going to .. I hope I will get there someday.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 18 January 2021 07: 15
    +4
    Yes, a completion worthy of a start !!!
  • BAI
    BAI 18 January 2021 09: 33
    +8
    First, an attentive observer will immediately notice that the shape of a bird, molded in this shape, will be located with its head up, not down.

    Well, how can you determine where is the top, where is the bottom?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 09: 42
      +5
      I agree, I also had this question.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 18 January 2021 09: 47
        +4
        He eats on horseback winked Greetings Anton hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 09: 52
          +4
          Albert! hi
          He eats on horseback
          And if we remove the gravitational constant?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 18 January 2021 09: 54
            +3
            Well then, on a whim laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 January 2021 10: 03
              +2
              Oh no! Here on a whim it is impossible! Indeed, in this case, we are faced with the global problem of a spherical falcon in a vacuum!
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 18 January 2021 10: 07
                +3
                Let's take a scientific approach - we will starve it and see everything for ourselves laughing
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 January 2021 10: 11
                  +4
                  And if he dies during the experiment? We will not get rid of the "green" ones!
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 18 January 2021 10: 23
                    +7
                    Let's get green from everyone. Even from blue))
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 36
                      +4
                      Let's get green from everyone. Even from blue))

                      Is there a risk of running into it? belay
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 19 January 2021 03: 25
                        +2
                        On blue in the bad sense of the word ((.
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 15
                        +3
                        Blue in a bad sense

                        These are the ones who borrow money and do not return it? laughing Well, if you "dance by contradiction" in the story below:
                        - Monya, Monya, and you know that our Zyama is a homosexual!
                        - Shaw, he borrowed money from you and doesn't want to give it back?
                        - No, in the good sense of the word ...
                        repeat
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 19 January 2021 11: 27
                        +1
                        Here I am about it laughing
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 11: 35
                        +3
                        Here I am about it

                        Only cowards give debts! laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 18 January 2021 10: 01
    +2
    Look at what smart people! Do not have time to press the "send" button, the minus already arrives!
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 18 January 2021 10: 02
      +1
      What did you expect from the descendants of the Kharians and Rassenov? They know how to distinguish Truth from Krivda lol
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 10: 07
        +1
        I don’t want anything from them, they want something unrealizable all the time.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 18 January 2021 10: 22
          +2
          They want the unrealizable - I have a lot of this stuff:
          Jerusalem was a Russian city (the root of Rus), later conquered by the reptilian David, as always sneakily, who killed Goliath. Retribution was not long in coming - less than 1500 years had passed, and the legions (squads) of the mighty Rome (Rus and Mongols) saved the X and Daryan peoples from this hotbed of Koschenism and Pekla in the primordial Slavic lands.
          However, incited by the Rothschilds and Barbara Streisand, the lizards did not calm down on this and bribed Attila, who destroyed the 1st Rome, the pan-Turkists, who destroyed the second. For this, Abramovich privatized an oil refinery in Omsk-Asgard, for which Rome III expressed condolences to Cryptobereza, who was found in the bathroom of her house in the capital of Chukotka, killed by her own scarf.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 38
            +5
            However, incited by the Rothschilds and Barbara Streisand, the lizards

            Just about, more details about the Anunnaki, please! wink I have corrected your karma, the question is that there are few of me, but there are many minusers. laughing
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 18 January 2021 15: 48
              +5
              These are black people ruled from Pekla, based in Sri Lanka (no kidding, in the Vedas it is written laughing )
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 08
                +4
                I'm not joking, it is written in the Vedas

                Nobody will believe you! stop Everyone, everyone has long known that the Anunnaki are the shadow government of the Earth, and they quite successfully live on Mars. fellow drinks
                You also say that Hitler does not live under the ice of Antarctica in a warm cozy house. laughing (The phrase is not mine - one very colorful professor put it this way in a lecture, with a joke, of course).
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 14
                  +2
                  Professor layman. It has long been proven that Aloizych lives in Sarah Jessica Parker's penthouse, he really lacks love and Lasko, so on long Manhattan evenings he whispers to her the script of the next episode of C-x in the Big City
                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 17
                  +3
                  Sarah Jessica Parker

                  However, it is illegible. what I would choose Kim Catrol. wink
                  so on long Manhattan evenings he whispers the script to her

                  Although with his "sexual talents", he only has to whisper ....
                3. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 18 January 2021 16: 25
                  +3
                  Oh Eve
                  About Blondie laughing
                4. Trilobite Master
                  18 January 2021 18: 34
                  +5
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  I would choose Kim Catrol.

                  Sarah bought it at the Odessa Privoz, what a choice. There then Hitler's rate was only six rubles thirty-eight kopecks (pre-reform), well, she could not resist. Now they are asking for big money for him, but after the war Hitler was cheap ... smile
                5. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 11: 39
                  +4
                  There then Hitler's course was only six rubles thirty-eight kopecks (pre-reform)

                  Does it really mean that Hitler lives with her, and not the disguised Taika Waititi? wink
                6. Trilobite Master
                  19 January 2021 12: 52
                  +4
                  Exactly - Hitler. Have you ever heard that someone was deceived on Privoz?
                  There is even a song like this:
                  Who lives with Aunt Sarah? Maybe the Viennese hussars?
                  Нет!
                  Maybe a couple of penguins, or the good Che Guevara?
                  Нет!
                  Well, maybe it is he - Bonaparte Napoleon?
                  Нет!
                  And not a goblin or a troll - maybe Hitler is our Adolf?
                  Yes!

                  Did not hear? laughing
                7. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 12: 54
                  +4
                  Did not hear?

                  No, I haven't heard, I was only in Feodosia in 2011, I didn't get to Odessa ... recourse we have a dispute over racial musical instruments with Anton up the branch. He called me a pangolin, and this is in medieval Polish - "poor gentry". Like, pan - goal! request
                8. Trilobite Master
                  19 January 2021 12: 58
                  +3
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  No, I haven't heard

                  It's because I just wrote it ... smile
                  How am I Agnia Barto? laughing
                9. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 13: 01
                  +4
                  How am I Agnia Barto?

                  Steeper than Agnia! good And taking into account the anatomy - so in general Samuil Marshak! drinks
                10. Trilobite Master
                  19 January 2021 13: 14
                  +5
                  Samuel?!! wassat
                  Just don't talk to the operator with Junger. They will kill me from the light!
                  laughing
                11. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 13: 37
                  +5
                  Just don't talk to the operator with Junger. They will kill me from the light!

                  Albert was not killed, and they will choke on you too! laughing
                12. Trilobite Master
                  19 January 2021 14: 47
                  +5
                  Albert was ready for this from infancy ... When he was born he knew what he was doing!
                  And I am just a creative person with a fine mental organization and a rich inner world, not ready for severe life trials ... recourse
                  How to drink give will devour me, so sweet, anti-Semites ... crying
                13. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 15: 15
                  +6
                  How to drink give will devour me, so sweet, anti-Semites ...

                  Yes! wink
                14. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 19 January 2021 17: 20
                  +5
                  - Last name?
                  - Rabinovich.
                  - Nationality?
                  - (decided to troll) Jew
                  - Which Jew? Maybe a turkey?
                  - Then the Indian ..
                  - So we will write: Rabinovich is an Indian of Jewish nationality fellow
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 19 January 2021 17: 29
                +5
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Albert was ready for this from infancy ... When he was born he knew what he was doing!
                And I am just a creative person with a fine mental organization and a rich inner world, not ready for severe life trials ... recourse
                How to drink give will devour me, so sweet, anti-Semites ... crying

                And you tell them:
                When I put your blood on matzah, kidneys for sale, heart for commercial transplantation in Israel, and I push your brain as an unused product for good money on Avito, no one will do anything to me for this, because by that time, comrades, I I will make the Great Socialist Revolution with my fellow tribesmen, and the riot police who will play football with your non-kosher scraps near the Hermitage, I will call it “beauty and pride” (c) am
              3. Trilobite Master
                19 January 2021 19: 06
                +4
                Albert ... I'm embarrassed to ask ... And all this will have to be done later? I mean this Gayvolution ... The rest is somehow at the very least back and forth, although even here I would have just limited myself to a short prison term, but this ... volition ... Fi!
                I still have to live in this country later ...
              4. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 19 January 2021 19: 10
                +5
                A revolution in Russia? laughing
                If according to Engels, it is strictly haram. ))
                A revolution can only be made in an industrialized country, so the answer is no. Gayvolution, which the Bolsheviks have been waiting for for so many years, is canceled fellow
              5. Trilobite Master
                19 January 2021 19: 12
                +5
                Ugh, relieved.
                I wrote down the rest, I will learn and, on occasion, I will answer the adversaries. smile
              6. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 19 January 2021 19: 23
                +5
                The main thing is ... do not start talking with them about the origin of the Russian royal dynasty, tk. if for Europe it is quite normal for the "foreign" origin of monarchs, as well as for the Russian times of Catherine and Elizabeth, then for the above-mentioned public this is a spit in the annals of the soul repeat
              7. Trilobite Master
                19 January 2021 20: 08
                +4
                With those who are simply against the foreign-language origin of their monarchs simply because "they do not want to," it is not so bad. The phrase of one of them that, they say, "why we all do not speak Danish now, since our elite was from Denmark," explains everything, in my opinion. This can be fought with education. Articles like this are disagreeable to them, but helpful. Notice, they pointed out the minuses, but in essence, not a single article had any comments, I'm not talking about presenting arguments in my favor. A normal reaction to an unpleasant stimulus, the next time it will dull, after one time it will pass completely painlessly, and something will be deposited in the head ... Well, not for everyone, of course, but for many.
                The ones I mentioned are different. You cannot enlighten such people, you can only force them to shut up, and even then not all and not always, if you do not resort to direct violence or threats of its use, as you essentially advised. smile
                Okay, to hell with them ...
                I have no desire to take care of their mental health. And the annals of their souls concern me in the last place.
                I'm going to write a new libel on our glorious Russian-Aryan past ... smile
              8. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 19 January 2021 21: 07
                +4
                It would be interesting, in my opinion, to reveal the theme of the Slavic-Goretsk wrestling, "Russian style" and other "combat hapaks", passed off as ancient martial arts of the peoples inhabiting the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia)).
              9. Trilobite Master
                19 January 2021 21: 28
                +4
                Try it. I have not had anything to do with hand-applied sports for a long time, and as far as its theory and history are concerned, never at all. smile
                My diocese is medieval Russia up to the XIV century. inclusive. This is interesting to me. Well, maybe another strife in the XNUMXth century. in a Moscow house.
              10. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 20 January 2021 07: 47
                +3
                There is a paper liter, let's see))
                I tried to write an article on the history of oncology in Russia - it didn't work laughing laughing
              11. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 20 January 2021 08: 08
                +2
                By the way, it was a good start.
              12. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 20 January 2021 09: 30
                +2
                It is necessary to delve into the archives, Moscow and St. Petersburg, to write a serious article.
                Good morning Anton! hi
              13. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 20 January 2021 09: 35
                +2
                Good morning!
                Well, write about what you know best! According to your comments, the history of Israel can be studied.
              14. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 20 January 2021 09: 39
                +2
                It is possible, but this niche is occupied by the respected Mr. Privalov, and he writes much better than me
              15. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 20 January 2021 09: 51
                +2
                I specially looked at Privalov's publications, not everything is covered.
                Do you remember I threw off your link, write about Jewish organized crime groups in the States. Again, I don't know how interested you are in ancient history, but this topic has no publications at all. And the information available to you by virtue of linguistics is the sea!
              16. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 20 January 2021 09: 57
                +2
                I know one thing about Jewish organized crime groups in the States - they had their own synagogues, because from other synagogues they were ... kicked out with beatings by workers laughing (then in New York there were no problems getting weapons, and everyone knew where the gangsters' families live)
              17. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 20 January 2021 10: 03
                +2
                It's your business, if you think about writing about ancient Israel, I can throw my photos from Timna.
              18. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 20 January 2021 10: 08
                +2
                I hardly think about it, but - thanks! ))
  • Fat
    Fat 20 January 2021 01: 30
    +3
    What a wise man you are! Libel? Let's ... recourse To us, not obvious "rusoaries" laughing bad does not stick repeat Rather, the Slavs will teach the whole world "bad things" ...
    Like to love your beloved and take care of children, grandchildren and neighbors. Regardless of the tribe, from the breadth of the soul ... laughing
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 20 January 2021 10: 46
    +2
    Quote: Krasnodar
    A revolution can only be made in an industrialized country, so the answer is no. Gayvolution, which the Bolsheviks have been waiting for for so many years, is canceled

    There is such a novel "The Wanting Seed" by Anthony Burgess (The Wanting Seed) 1962 - a dystopia of the accomplished game revolution in Europe of the future: it feels like now this book is being "fooled". Looks like Burgess made a bad joke ... hi
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 20 January 2021 11: 24
    +2
    Sinclair Lewis also joked badly in 1935.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 19 January 2021 13: 05
    +5
    "Who vomited a bear’s paw,
    Throwing a hare in the rain
    Tannin threw the ball into the river,
    He broke the board at the bull's ...
    Everyone knows who!
    This is Agnia Barto! "
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 13: 38
    +4
    This is Agnia Barto!

    On the topic of the day - in the sense, the historical dispute about the Slavs:

    But this is a memo to the beginning poet laughing

  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 19 January 2021 13: 48
    +4
    Why does Pushkin have blood on his hands?
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 13: 50
    +4
    Why does Pushkin have blood on his hands?

    He was engaged in dismemberment of Dantes in order to drown him later in the Black River. wink Have you forgotten where you live? It's just the climate! request
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 19 January 2021 14: 00
    +5
    Have you forgotten where you live?
    I can, I'm one of the comers. Imagine, I sometimes call the curb a curb! repeat
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 14: 08
    +4
    Imagine, I sometimes call the curb a curb!

    "Judge Lyapkin-Tyapkin is extremely bad manners!" (N.V. Gogol) laughing
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 19 January 2021 17: 49
    +5
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    But this is a memo to the beginning poet

    Have consumed - confirmed by photos:
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 09: 50
    +3
    Used - Photo Confirmed

    He also used women. wink It happens that so many will gather around him - he already does not know which rhyme to write first ... fellow
  • Fat
    Fat 18 January 2021 13: 15
    +7
    hi It seems it's called "holivar"

    Going to Macedonia, I asked you, do you remember, to stay in Ephesus and punish some there not to spread false teachings, 4 not to stick to old fables and not delve into endless genealogies, which only generate disputes, and do not serve to translate God's plan by the power of faith. (1Tm. 1: 3,4)
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 18 January 2021 15: 49
      +3
      Reforged the flog into feces? laughing
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 16: 56
        +3
        Reforged the flog into feces?

        Reforged a screaming fan. laughing
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 19 January 2021 17: 16
          +2
          Fan for Fecal? ))
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 17: 28
            +3
            Fan for Fecal?

            Chopper-feeder. wink so to speak, right into the panama hat.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 19 January 2021 17: 31
              +3
              Maybe on a plate? Because people hawala fellow
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 09: 41
                +2
                Maybe on a plate? Because people hawala

                When Samsonov writes another nonsense about the fact that the Finno-Slavs and the Udmurto-Aryans fought, offer him. wink Don't take it too expensive, it won't give you much anyway. laughing And his flock is eating.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri 18 January 2021 10: 22
    +4
    Quote: BAI
    Well, how can you determine where is the top, where is the bottom?

    Apparently, it is assumed that this is something like an amulet, and therefore, in the upper part of it there should be an "eyelet" for a string.
    But, on the other hand, if this is an amulet, then why is there only one raven (if it is, of course, a raven), because Odin has two sacred reconnaissance "drones" - Hugin and Munin?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 10: 58
      +4
      Due to the limited number of communication channels, the "One" UAV control system could support the operation of only one device. laughing
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 18 January 2021 11: 24
        +8
        But, in Scadinavia itself, the "One" system was perfectly controlled with two UAVs at the same time! It was originally designed for two UAVs. Moreover, the UAV "Hugin" was engaged in the collection and analysis of information, and the UAV "Munin" was responsible for data storage and communication with the operator.
        Apparently the vile Vikings supplied, to our Palestine, an export version of the system, with reduced functionality. laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 11: 58
          +6
          The damned Masters of the West even then considered us a third world country!
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 19: 57
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            The damned Masters of the West even then considered us a third world country!

            No. When the British tried to go to India through Russia, their traveler wrote a report: "If the Russians wanted, they would have conquered the whole world." This is under Ivan the Terrible in my opinion.
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 11: 31
        +6
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Due to the limited number of communication channels, the "One" UAV control system could support the operation of only one device

        It is logical: he only had 1 guidance system (eyes). hi
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 18 January 2021 11: 45
          +6
          But the ports are for receiving information, i.e. ears, he had, nevertheless, two ...
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 January 2021 12: 00
            +4
            Quote: HanTengri
            But the ports are for receiving information, i.e. ears, he had, nevertheless, two ...

            Here the questions are not for me, I am a technically illiterate person: how he directed two UAVs with a laser from one eye - I don't understand ... hi
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 18 January 2021 12: 27
              +4
              Quote: Mihaylov
              Here the questions are not for me, I am a technically illiterate person: how he directed two UAVs with a laser from one eye - I don't understand ...

              So that's why they are drones, that they do not need laser guidance. They have their own RAM in their heads, percentages and all that ... The software is stitched, with a speech recognition function ... So it is enough to send them ... and they will go by themselves. The main thing is to specify the address exactly. laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 January 2021 13: 54
                +7
                "And inside she has a thinker and an analyzer" (C)
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 January 2021 12: 17
            +6
            "But I smell and hear well!" (FROM)
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 12: 30
          +6
          only 1 was.
          Sergei!
          You've just made a breakthrough in anti-Norman doctrine! After all, one has only to voice the Russian designation for the number of eyes of the owner of Asgard, immediately it becomes extremely clear his Russoaryan genesis!
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 January 2021 12: 39
            +6
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            You've just made a breakthrough in anti-Norman doctrine! After all, one has only to voice the Russian designation for the number of eyes of the owner of Asgard, immediately it becomes extremely clear his Russoaryan genesis!

            I assure you Anton, this is a purely accidental discovery, which apparently I made without knowing it ... drinks
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 January 2021 12: 57
              +8
              All great discoveries are made by chance: a bath, an apple, the atmosphere of Venus, America ... good
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 18 January 2021 15: 27
      +6
      Quote: HanTengri
      Odin's two sacred reconnaissance "drone" - Hugin and Munin?

      It's funny, but Chekhov's dogs were called: Khina and Brom, I feel some kind of connection here ... I always feel ... wassat
  • Trilobite Master
    18 January 2021 13: 51
    +4
    Quote: BAI
    Well, how can you determine where is the top, where is the bottom?

    Items of this kind (and this is most likely a pendant) always have a strap attachment. On which side this device is - that and the top. smile From the bottom of this device, it is clearly not observed.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 14: 47
      +5
      Hmm ... And with what probability this device was cast together with the suspension, and not mounted on the product later?
      1. Fat
        Fat 18 January 2021 15: 07
        +6
        hi Most likely. It is much easier to cast the rod together with the product, and then bend it, giving the desired configuration. Casting in a split mold implies a certain series with all the accompanying simplifications. Soldering and riveting is boring.
        As the father of a certified jeweler, I tell you this smile drinks
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 15: 10
          +4
          Andrew! hi
          It is even easier to make a hole in the finished product.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 15: 39
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            It is even easier to make a hole in the finished product.

            You are both right and wrong. yes Let me give you an example of Finnish people. In one side of Finland, rivets were riveted, and in the other, they were carved from wood.
            1. Fat
              Fat 18 January 2021 16: 04
              +3
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Let me give you an example of Finnish people.

              hi Is a finca a "Finnish" knife?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 16: 49
                +3
                Quote: Thick
                Is a finca a "Finnish" knife?

                Well yes. If you look at my profile, then there I have made an article about our Finns. Though filthy, but her own ... yes
                1. Fat
                  Fat 18 January 2021 16: 52
                  +5
                  I will definitely read it. Thank you
          2. Fat
            Fat 18 January 2021 15: 46
            +5
            Anton. I thought about this before writing - it's not always easy to poke a small hole in a molded product. It's easier to make a hole in a coin for a pendant, yeah yes
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 January 2021 15: 51
              +5
              I do not argue. Not having any significant knowledge in the history of metalworking, I consider it possible for myself only to make assumptions and ask questions.
      2. Trilobite Master
        18 January 2021 15: 15
        +6
        With a big. At the beginning of the X century. with a big. Not a single thing like this comes to mind that would not have been cast entirely.
    2. SVD68
      SVD68 18 January 2021 19: 37
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      (and this is most likely a suspension)

      And not a brooch?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 18 January 2021 09: 47
    +3
    Let this be my little revenge for the spoiler for this article.
    Well then, revenge has come true!
    Thank you Michael!
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 19
      +5
      Thank you Michael!

      I join with all paws! good
      Before us is an image of a coin by Olaf Goodfritsson, King of Dublin and Jorvik from the times of Danish law (present-day York), a descendant of the legendary Danish king Ragnar Lothbrok.

      I remember that on our website there is a respected interlocutor with a similar nickname ... laughing Why didn't he follow his upbringing? His great-great-granddaughter is losing coins! belay drinks
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 12: 38
        +4
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        I join with all paws!

        Good afternoon Nikolai,
        I have a couple of photos for you, I took them yesterday at the Museum of the Guards (General Staff building, 3rd floor):


        Authentic dress of Catherine II made in the style of the Guards regiment.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 44
          +4
          Authentic dress of Catherine II made in the style of the Guards regiment.

          Sergey, class! good In the second photo, in the center, we see the officer's espontons. Along the edges, obliquely, there are apparently earlier espontons (with a straight blade) and a non-commissioned officer's halberd of the second half of the 18th century - with a "horned" blade. Shine!
          Did you remove the signs? I could be wrong. drinks
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 January 2021 13: 02
            +4
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            Did you remove the signs? I could be wrong.

            All removed:
            Halberd of junior non-commissioned officers late XVIII-XIX centuries
            Halberd of senior non-commissioned officers late XVIII-XIX centuries
            Espotons (from left to right):
            Officer of the Life Guards Izmailovsky Regiment (Alexander 1)
            Officer of the Izmailovsky Life Guard Regiment (Pavel1)
            Officer of the Life Guard of the Izmailovsky regiment of the early 19th century
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 13: 12
              +4
              I'm interested in the second blade on the left (and right) - straight. drinks
              Here's what they write about this on the Chobitka armored site.
              http://army.armor.kiev.ua/forma/alebarda.shtml

              In the picture from left to right: 1- non-commissioned officer halberd arr. 1731. 2-army non-commissioned officer halberd arr. 1797 3-Guards Non-commissioned Officer Halberd Model 1797 4-officer espanton model 1741 5-officer espanton model 1797
              There is a clarification that this is an army halberd.
              The question is that the article was apparently written in the pre-Internet era ... Therefore, on the armored site, they may make mistakes!
              Oh, delicious pictures, Sergey, sooooo delicious! good But this weapon is not really considered in domestic sources! If only Viskovatov, but he is too lazy to leaf through, look for the necessary paragraphs ... recourse
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 18 January 2021 14: 25
                +4
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                I'm interested in the second blade on the left (and right) - straight.

                Nikolay, here's the signature, I hope you can read:

                But look at this, what a beauty:
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 15: 33
                  +3
                  But look at this, what a beauty:

                  Beauty! good
                  Hmm .. Those who say. that Pal Petrovich introduced a tight uniform, apparently, they did not compare it with the subsequent uniform of the times of Alexander I, especially with the uniforms of the Napoleonic army, and there the incision generally came from the chest. soldier
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 18 January 2021 15: 47
                    +3
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    e who say. that Pal Petrovich introduced a tight uniform,

                    Like this?

                    Officer's caftan of the Izmailovsky Regiment Life Guard 1797
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 14
                      +3
                      Officer's caftan of the Izmailovsky Regiment Life Guard 1797

                      Yes. A year ago Anton and I filmed a little closer similar ones - in Gatchina. drinks Sergey - wonderful photos! good
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 16: 20
                        +2
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Yes. A year ago Anton and I filmed a little closer similar ones - in Gatchina.

                        I was most impressed by the Doloman officer of the Life Guards of the Hussar Regiment (until 1820):

                        What a beauty: it is clear why the hussars made such an impression on the ladies. hi
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 24
                        +3
                        Doloman officer of the Life Guard of the Hussar Regiment (until 1820):

                        ... and a fur-trimmed mentik was still casually draped over the top ... winked How did Kozma Prutkov say there? "If you want to be beautiful, become a hussar!" good
                        it is clear why the hussars made such an impression on the ladies

                        The French ladies were greatly impressed by the Cossacks in 1814. Even a series of hilarious pictures was released. yes
                      3. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 16: 32
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        and a fur-trimmed mantik was still casually draped over it ...

                        And finally, a few hats for Vyacheslav Olegovich (he likes these:



                        And Winter Petersburg for everyone:
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 44
                        +3
                        several hats for Vyacheslav Olegovich (he likes these:

                        How he loves! First, I wonder what period it belongs to? The second, like - a cavalry guard helmet of the late 18th century.
                      5. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 16: 49
                        +3
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        First, I wonder what period it belongs to? The second, like - a cavalry guard helmet of the late 18th century.

                        First and third:
                        Grenadier cap of the Life Guard of the Preobrazhensky Regiment 1760s
                        Jaeger hat of the Life Guard of the Izmailovsky regiment 1780-1790s
                        Second (middle):
                        Front helmet of a private of the Cavalry corps 1764-1796
                      6. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 16: 53
                        +3
                        Jaeger hat of the Life Guard of the Izmailovsky regiment 1780-1790s

                        I did not know that the gamekeepers had such!
                      7. kalibr
                        kalibr 18 January 2021 18: 39
                        +4
                        Very interesting. If you don't mind, I'll copy them for use. To me in PM - name for signature. I would be very grateful.
                      8. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 19: 16
                        +4
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Very interesting. If you don't mind, I'll copy them for use. To me in PM - name for signature. I would be very grateful.

                        Yes, of course, I'll write in a personal message.
                      9. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 34
                        +1
                        Very interesting. If you don't mind, I'll copy them for use. To me in PM - name for signature. I would be very grateful.

                        You must! It was I who spoke to Sergei about his uniform six months ago! laughing
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 38
                  +3
                  And Winter Petersburg for everyone:
                  Bravo, Sergey !!! Yesterday, once again, I saw the same.
  • Trilobite Master
    18 January 2021 14: 11
    +6
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Well then, revenge has come true!

    Wasn't she awful? Well, awful? Awful? repeat
    Am I scary in anger?
    laughing
    In fact, I was interested in this artifact for a long time, when I first saw it in the Ladoga Museum. And then he came to a common theme.
    I can't resist saying a few words about editing my original text.
    The text is divided into paragraphs by the editor. Many sentences are also split into several shorter ones. Not my style, I don't write that way and I don't like that style. Why the editorial office needed it - I don't understand. But I ask all readers, when evaluating the text itself, to take into account that if in my previous articles the text was published practically unchanged, then in this cycle the editor frolicked.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 14: 20
      +4
      Wasn't she awful?
      Not that word! Not revenge is terrible, but its expectation and inevitability!
      1. Trilobite Master
        18 January 2021 15: 08
        +6
        I feel like a real villain ... Nice, I must say the feeling ... smile
        Thank you, Anton. But now, it turns out, I owe you for a few pleasant minutes ...
        Okay, I'll think about how to "thank". Villainous.
        laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 15: 15
          +4
          I will consider the continuation of literary (!) Activities a worthy reward. Or joint trilobite fishing on Love.
          1. Trilobite Master
            18 January 2021 15: 25
            +5
            Trilobites are independent and proud creatures. They are not caught, but persuaded to join a good company. I think we can do it. smile
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 January 2021 10: 02
    +6
    Thus, the main arguments presented in the works of the most consistent and authoritative "anti-Normanists" in favor of the hypothesis of Rurik's West Slavic origin must be rejected.

    Based on what? belay

    Based on many copyright "presumably", "possibly", headless stone fragment and controversial linguistic research a la Columbus = Kolomyets?

    I see no reason.

    The author's work is interesting - as another pro-pocketbook attempt, I read it with pleasure.
    1. Trilobite Master
      18 January 2021 14: 16
      +6
      Quote: Olgovich
      Based on what?

      On the basis of this, from the point of view of linkvistics, "Rurik" cannot be "Rarog" or "Rurik", but is a Khrerek, and the trident is not a falcon from the point of view of archeology. This is unambiguous, not "presumably", and these are the main arguments in favor of Rurik's Slavic origin.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 January 2021 14: 33
        +2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        On the basis of that, from the point of view of linkvistics, "Rurik" cannot be "Rarog" or "Rurik", but is a Hrerek This is unambiguous

        There is nothing unambiguous there.
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        and the trident is not a falcon.


        The fact that a trident is not a falcon is unambiguous.
        1. Trilobite Master
          18 January 2021 15: 10
          +5
          Linguistics is an exact science. There, too, everything is unambiguous, even more so than with a falcon.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 18 January 2021 10: 08
    +5
    And finally, completing this small study devoted to the hypothesis of the Slavic origin of the ancestor of the first Russian princely dynasty, it is necessary to mention one find that took place during an archaeological expedition to the Zemlyanoy settlement of Staraya Ladoga in 2008.
    Such a find could testify to the actual and direct relationship of the sign of the Rurikovich with a falcon, which took place already in the XNUMXth century. And the first impression of this find was just that.
    Exactly a hundred years earlier, a similar incident had taken place. During excavations in the estate of Doctor Petrovsky in Kiev, a tile with the "patrimonial mark of the Rurikovich" was found.

    I read Bolsunovsky about this - more than a hundred years have passed, but nothing has changed much - a bird, a banner, a trident.
    Bolsunovsky himself believed that this is a symbolic outline of the word "Vasilevs".
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 18 January 2021 10: 28
      +5
      Quote: Undecim
      Bolsunovsky himself believed that this is a symbolic outline of the word "Vasilevs".

      Good afternoon, a very logical addition: the "Greek version" also needs to be added to the Khazar, Norman, Slavic and Hungarian.
      Especially considering that the early stone buildings in Kiev were most likely carried out by Greek craftsmen.
      During excavations in the estate of Doctor Petrovsky in Kiev, a tile with the "patrimonial mark of the Rurikovich" was found.

      The dating of this "brick" is not clear, I doubt that it is earlier than the XI century.
    2. Trilobite Master
      18 January 2021 14: 21
      +5
      The origin of the sign itself (bident) is "a mystery covered in darkness". In the article itself, or rather in the cycle itself, I did not want to touch it too much. Perhaps in the future I will try to expand on this topic in more detail, but not now for sure.
      The main thing that I wanted to convey is that this sign has nothing to do with the falcon. I don't know how much I succeeded, but for me personally this fact is obvious.
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 18 January 2021 10: 30
    +5
    In many ways, modern (historical science) is a set of agreements to somehow understand a fact among historians, and if something gets out of this series, it is subjected to obstruction and worse for this fact or finding.
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 18 January 2021 10: 55
    +4
    Like the other tribes of the Pomor Slavs, as well as parts of the Balts, they could not effectively resist the German aggression. And by the middle of the XII century. finally left the historical (and political) arena, being subordinated (and then assimilated) by the Germanic peoples.

    Well, somehow I'm sorry, debatable. If the Pomor Slavs due to the fact that as a people did not survive, then Rurik should not be given to them in any way? Following your logic, Attila is clearly not a Hun. Judging by how famous he was, a citizen of the United States or Israel? Well, either Russian or German at worst.
    1. Trilobite Master
      18 January 2021 14: 25
      +7
      Quote: Termit1309
      Following your logic

      Mine? wassat
      What are you talking about now?
      I say that there is no reason to assert the thesis about the Slavic origin of Rurik, since the main arguments in favor of this theory (the similarity of his name with the name "Rarog" and the West Slavic "rerik", as well as the "falcon" symbolism of the generic sign) are untenable. Everything else is your speculation and your "logic".
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 18 January 2021 11: 05
    +2
    Quote: Bar1
    yes
    -... but what about your principles?
    -a FSU principles.

    The principle is one - pay, and we will find!
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 18 January 2021 12: 11
      0
      Quote: pmkemcity
      The principle is one - pay, and we will find!


      well, only Christ said:
      -You cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 18 January 2021 12: 14
        +2
        Quote: Bar1
        well, only Christ said:
        -You cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time.

        And who said that only Christians dig the earth?
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 January 2021 12: 16
          +2
          Quote: pmkemcity
          And who said that only Christians dig the earth?


          um, Christians usually do not dig the earth at all. True Christians / Abramites lead this process, i.e. graze the flock.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 18 January 2021 11: 53
    0
    Normanism-anti-Normanism is a false dilemma, and here's why
    (1/2) Names
    The name Rurik is Germanic, or rather Gothic. There are at least three Gothic kings with this name, the Visigoth king Ariaric in the Black Sea region, the Ostrogoth king Eraric in Italy and Roderik (Ruderik) - the Visigoth king in Spain. Eraric was the king of the Rugs (Rus) who, among others, had a certain autonomy, "special status" and was elected the king of all Goths in Italy as a compromise figure. That is, at least already in the XNUMXth century, not just Gothic, but Russian kings with the name Rurik are known. Nowadays in Spain this name (Rodrigo) is quite common.
    The names with the ending in -slav are not "Slavic", but also Germanic, and also precisely Gothic. The thing is that they actually end in -lav. For example. The name Stanislav exists and is popular not only in countries that are considered "Slavic". The Italian form of this name is Stanislao, Portuguese is Estanislau, Spanish is Estanislao, French is Stanislas. It was on the territory of these modern states that the Gothic kingdoms existed. Let's continue this series of names - Athulef, Dagalaif, Edilef, Haduleif, Herleif, Hordleif, Ratleib, Sileif, Wiglaf, Wunnileif (there are spellings like Ratleib or Wulfleip). In Scandinavia this part of the name became a name (e.g. Leif Erikson)

    Leif / Leiv (read as life) means beloved, heir, descendant. It is this meaning that part of the name has - glories in Gothic names. But where does the "c" come from?

    "C" does not refer to the "lava" part, but to the transliteration of the first part of the name. John Skilitsa, narrating the events of the XNUMXth century, wrote down the names of the Russian princes as follows - Νεσισθλάβος (Nesisthlabos), Iεροσθλάβος (Hierosthlabos) and Ζινίσθλαβος (Zinisthlabos). As you can see, Skylitsa did not consider the part of the name - glory (θλάβος) to be derived from σκλαβηνός. θ is really (th) in English transcription, and the first part of the name ends with this sound (such as the name Widsith). But transliteration and transmission of θ and th as z are more common - Wizlaw, Jarizleifr
    1. Force multiplier
      Force multiplier 18 January 2021 12: 22
      +2
      (2/2) Bird
      "The seal of Svyatoslav" hardly belonged to Svyatoslav, because the cross on it is a Christian symbol. In the comments to the previous article, there was a fair observation that the motive of the coat of arms of Rurik is traced in the Khazar tamgas. Everything is true, but where did the Khazars get this emblem? And they have it from the Goths, because the further to the East, the more such emblems only decrease.


      Amazing resemblance to a bird from Staraya Ladoga

      The history of Russia traditionally begins with PVL and Rurikovich. But it is correct to start it with the Gothic Jordan. Rus, among other Goths, came to the territory of central and eastern Europe in prehistoric times, and is the indigenous people of this region. The Germanic roots of Russia are obvious, but it is also obvious that they are much older than the XNUMXth century, and, of course, we cannot talk about the Scandinavians. The Rurikids only completed the "reconquista" (an obvious analogy with Spain, only instead of the Arabs the territory was conquered from the Türks and Sarmatians). It is the substitution of Goths for Scandinavians in the official discourse that makes him so vulnerable to criticism, and this substitution is deliberate. The whole dispute between Miller and Lomonosov (with his ultra-"patriotism" and the version about Sarmatian origin, with a murky biography even by the standards of the XNUMXth century, who lived with a "German" wife and her "brother", and was a protégé of the Mason Vorontsov) is a production that was not started in order to find the truth, but in order to hide it and "detach" Russian history from the Goths and from the foundations of European civilization
  • Engineer
    Engineer 18 January 2021 12: 05
    +9
    Thanks to this series of articles, I refreshed in my memory certain aspects of the state of Russian historiography.
    Unfortunately, from the outside (from mine, of course) it is very sad. In fact, we can talk about a deep crisis or, at least, marking time. Both sides - Normanists and anti-Normanists - are chewing on arguments for the twentieth time, half of which were formulated 100 years ago.
    The Normanists are convinced of their victory. "End of discussion" - how do you like that? That is, in their opinion, there is nothing further to discuss.
    The anti-Normanists degenerated into some kind of sectarians, constantly fighting with the mills in the form of the shadows of Miller and Schletzer. And screaming about a conspiracy against science.

    On this topic. Everything below is not a reproach to the author, but rather a reproach to our entire historiography.

    There is no justification for the origin of tamgas. Absolutely not. Analogs of tamgas among the Khazars and Sarmatians are indicated. The same Sarmatians have at least one "voluminous" two-toothed tamga with a lower projection, very similar to the later "Rurik" one. The logical chain and continuity are not built.

    The Scandinavians proper have generic signs - analogs of tamgas appear later. How to deal with this? The Scandinavians did not have any analogues of the trident-bident in previous eras. Found two-toothed images are concentrated primarily on the territory of Russia, and not Scandinavia.

    Rerik of Jutland was most likely from the Skjeldungs, but images similar to two-toothed tamgas that could be correlated with this most famous genus in Scandinavia are not known at all.

    Russian science could not solve the most acute and key question of our history. Alas
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 32
      +6
      Russian science could not solve the most acute and key question of our history.

      Denis, I am far from being a guru in ancient Russian history. laughing I mean, I remember the main thing, in the intricacies - "I am swimming". But I’ll ask you - don’t you think that small literary sources are to blame? drinks
      I'll explain. In my free time, my favorite pastime is flipping through Wikipedia on the topic of early medieval England, Scotland, Ireland ... Everything there, even about rulers and small states, was much more fun than ours. fellow The question is, I think it was better documented. what Christianity has already come, and the event you are interested in could be recorded in Latin - the international language of that time. soldier
      I mean that their written records began much earlier than ours. request We have to fill the gaps in the written evidence with the help of archeology ... hi
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 18 January 2021 12: 47
        +6
        But I’ll ask you - don’t you think that the reason is small literary sources?

        Undoubtedly. But there is still over 100 years of systemic digging. And the exhaust specifically for this problem is so-so.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 12: 55
          +6
          And the exhaust specifically for this problem is so-so.

          But how many copies have been broken, and their asses torn from straining in the dispute ... fellow
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 18 January 2021 13: 00
            +8
            Rather, how many cuckoos moved out, how many trolls were banned
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 13: 07
              +6
              how many trolls are banned

              And how many new ones were born from those who went like a cuckoo ... what
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 18 January 2021 12: 57
      +6
      Quote: Engineer
      Russian science could not solve the most acute and key question of our history. Alas

      Good afternoon Denis, you said everything correctly, but alas, how we all understand it all depends on the state of the sources and unfortunately hopes in the future only mainly for archeology, hopes for new written sources almost never. As archaeological material is accumulated, processed and introduced into scientific circulation, which is happening very slowly, it will move slowly forward, and I must say we are moving, but slowly.
      For myself, I closed the Norman question long ago.
      By the way, I don’t understand why everyone became attached to Schlezer, they probably didn’t read him.
      Analogs of tamgas among the Khazars and Sarmatians are indicated. K The logical chain and continuity is not built.

      I can offer you a "working version" of the Khazars: after the fall of such a powerful state as the Khazar Kaganate, successors for its inheritance appear among the neighbors: territorial, military, ideological, etc., which is commonplace. Perhaps this is an attempt at ideological continuity: the term kagan, Khazar tamga (if, of course, it is of Khazar origin). Analogs - for example, the claim to the ideological legacy of the Byzantine Empire by the young Russian state (Moscow - Tritium Rome) or, for example, to the legacy of the Golden Horde (title - tsar).
      However, of course, you can throw a lot of such versions outright hi
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 18 January 2021 13: 07
        +3
        unfortunately hopes in the future can only be mainly on archeology, hopes for new written sources almost never occur.

        kind
        So we have been hoping for diggers for a hundred years, but things are still there.
    3. Trilobite Master
      18 January 2021 14: 42
      +4
      The history of the tamgas, their typology, genesis, and so on, I did not want to touch at all. If we seriously deal with this issue, then this topic is not at all for VO in principle. And so, noddingly - he reached the Bosporus kingdom, there were similar symbols, and their roots can probably be traced even deeper - to some Phoenicians.
      As for the use of tamgas by the Scandinavians, I did not pry into this area from the word "at all". Surely there is something in foreign languages, but it's a long and dreary task to search, then comprehend, even I don't know English that well, and the topic itself is not very interesting to me.
      I wrote about falcons and only because I saw how popular this delusion is among the people. In science, this issue has long been clear - genetics and archeology have not left Rurik at all with room for maneuver for the apologists of Slavic origin, but among the masses, thanks to the efforts of some clowns, this theory is still in circulation. With which we are fighting. smile
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 18 January 2021 14: 56
        +3
        As for the use of tamgas by the Scandinavians, I did not pry into this area from the word "at all". Surely there is something in foreign languages

        Our researchers, not anti-Normanists, by the way, write that in Scandinavia generic marks did not appear earlier than the 12th or 13th century.
        genetics and archeology left no room for maneuver for apologists of Slavic origin Rurik

        Rather, it was the Normans who announced it.
        And in fact there is such a thing
        Smirnova brings some of the early Novgorod ceramics from Mecklenburg. The same Slavic one.

        Let me remind you that ceramics is one of the most important ethnic markers.
        1. Trilobite Master
          18 January 2021 15: 21
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          Smirnova brings some of the early Novgorod ceramics from Mecklenburg. The same Slavic one.

          Which Rerik? smile
          Novgorod's connections were extensive - with Gotland and Sweden, and with Norway and Denmark, it would be strange if there were no connections with their direct and close relatives from Pomorie. But the presence of markers of such ties can in no way be evidence in favor of the specific ethnic origin of the founder of the dynasty. We're talking about him?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 18 January 2021 15: 43
            +5
            The presence of similar dishes suggests that resettlement was most likely taking place. In this case, from west to east. Because ethnic groups prefer to use their own dishes. This is certainly not an immutable law, but quite a universal trend, well known to archaeologists.

            The Norman theory at the moment looks more complete, but to say that Rurik's Slavism has been refuted once and for all is premature, as for me.
            1. Trilobite Master
              18 January 2021 16: 08
              +2
              Quote: Engineer
              prematurely,

              Nobody speaks. In the article:
              In this way, main arguments, stated in the works of the most consistent and authoritative "anti-Normanists" in favor of the hypothesis of the West Slavic origin of Rurik, must be rejected. The very same hypothesis (already weakly argued) is even more in need of additional proof.

              Let them seek new evidence - who is against? But so far nothing intelligible has been proposed, unfortunately.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 18: 47
                -1
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                Let them seek new evidence - who is against? But so far nothing intelligible has been proposed, unfortunately.

                But you didn't offer anything intelligible either.
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 22: 29
              +1
              Quote: Engineer
              The presence of similar dishes suggests that resettlement was most likely taking place. In this case, from west to east.

              Why not east to west? After all, our ancestors wrote letters to each other when the Vikings only carved the runes. For example. 11th century letter:
              [I sent (?)] To you three times. What evil do you have against me that this week (or: this Sunday) you did not come to me? And I treated you like a brother! Did I hurt you by sending [to you]? And you, I see, do not like it. If you were in love, would you burst out from under [human] eyes and rush ...? Even if I hurt you out of my folly, if you start mocking me, then God and my badness (that is, I) will judge [you]. "
              By the way, they took Rome too.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Engineer
                Engineer 19 January 2021 09: 17
                +3
                Because the forms in Mecklenburg are older than the forms in Novgorod.
                About the capture of Rome by our ancestors, this is to Samsonov and his Slavic district.
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 10: 25
        -1
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        but among the masses, thanks to the efforts of some clowns, this theory is still in circulation. With which we are fighting.

        And all of you are clowns. And look in the mirror is not destiny?
        Generally, they insult the opponent when there is no convincing argument, other than those that are sucked from the finger. laughing
        1. Trilobite Master
          20 January 2021 14: 26
          0
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And all of you are clowns.

          Why is it all? Only some. Well, what else to call Fomenko, Chudinova, Zadornov? Oh yes, I forgot about Klesov.
          Do you want to argue with me about the origin of Rurik, give "convincing arguments"? Maybe there is something new from this area, but I'm not in the know? Do not hesitate, expound!
          To be honest, I have long wanted to discuss this topic with a competent and intelligent interlocutor, to listen to his arguments, to be heard myself ... But for the past few years, opponents have not found other arguments other than insults. In the best case, they will remember, as recently, Gedeonov, Ilovaisky and Kuzmin, the most advanced - also Rapova, well, these are all the arguments of one and a half centuries ago, the main of which I analyzed in this cycle.
          So what - to expect something interesting from you?
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 18: 44
            -1
            Quote: Trilobite Master

            Why is it all? Only some. Well, what else to call Fomenko, Chudinova, Zadornov? Oh yes, I forgot about Klesov.

            You also wrote Pyzhikov there just now, for some reason you forgot Spitsyn and his teachers, one of whom is Kuzmin, you just mentioned. Are you ashamed?
            About debating ... No, of course, I'm not a historian. And don't get me wrong - I am not arguing with you, I am showing your flaws in the article.
            "Casting a ball bird would be head up." Yes? And where are the paws of the bird in the image? How would she sit without them? And since they are not in the image, then she is depicted in flight. Further, I repeat, the bird's wing on the flask is not a raven's wing. What are you trying to tie the coin that depicts (most like) a raven? For solidity?
            What does the found investment ring say? That the Normans lived there? Maybe they lived in a small community, or maybe a few people to maintain the courtyard for the Norman merchants. AND? Or maybe a Norman merchant brought it as a gift to a Russian goldsmith? Maybe, maybe, maybe ... And you call this a proof article? This is from the category - people grabbing. But I'm not people. hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              20 January 2021 20: 09
              +1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              You also recorded Pyzhikov there just now

              Yes you are right. Thanks for reminding me. Also Pyzhikov. I cannot say anything about Spitsyn - if I came across his work, I did not remember it, although the name is familiar. If he is the author of history textbooks for the school, then he has not read it.
              Now let's deal with the "flaws".
              Why the upper part is considered lost is obvious - because pendants were cast in such forms, and the suspension itself (loop for the strap) was naturally located on top. It is not near the tail, so it was near the head. A possible objection that such a loop could be attached to an already finished product does not work - the technologies for making such items are well known. This, by the way, was discussed with colleagues in the comments to this article.
              Next.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              a bird's wing on a flask - not a raven's wing

              We read in the article:
              Perhaps (I emphasize, perhaps) the master who created the flask, parts of which were found in Staraya Ladoga (by the way, traces of precious metals were found in it), wanted to cast the figure of a raven, not a falcon.

              I deliberately highlighted this point to avoid such a reproach, but you continue to see what you want in the text, not what is written.
              It was not me who tied the coin to the box. But personally, I see a certain similarity in the image on the coin and on the box, as well as the differences. In any case, scientists do not know anything more similar yet and draw parallels from the available material. If you study the examples of the fine arts of those times, it will be clearly seen that the masters of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, and even later, always adhered to certain traditions in the depiction of something, and these traditions were formed in a certain environment and were passed from teacher to student. Let's just say: for example, a bird or an animal of a certain species in different areas could be depicted in completely different ways. Therefore, having studied such an image, a specialist will be able to say from which area either the image itself or its author arrived. In this case, a clear Scandinavian style is stated, possibly related to Denmark. No more.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              What does the found investment ring say? That the Normans lived there? Maybe they lived in a small community, or maybe a few people to maintain the courtyard for the Norman merchants.

              The find is not one, there are many of them, and in these layers seventy-eighty percent indicate the Normans, the remaining twenty are Slavs and Finno-Ugric peoples. In younger strata, the percentage of Scandinavians decreases, then disappears. I will not give a list of finds. I can recommend reading, for example, G.S. Lebedev, if this really interests you.
              The article says that the found flask is not necessarily a falcon, but with a guarantee - of Scandinavian origin, and with a significant degree of probability it is Danish. It's all.
              What you personally saw in it, I do not know. What you are arguing with is also not entirely clear to me.
              And yet you, unlike the majority of "dissenting", at least formulated what exactly does not suit you - even as a result of incorrect reading of the text, but nevertheless. You have asked questions that I could at least try to answer, give explanations. The rest do not bother themselves with this either. The only pity is that this happens on the third day after publication, when few people read the thread. But thanks anyway. hi
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 21: 43
                -1
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                Perhaps (I emphasize, perhaps) the master who created the flask, parts of which were found in Staraya Ladoga (by the way, traces of precious metals were found in it), wanted to cast the figure of a raven, not a falcon.

                I don’t understand - if the wings and tail of a bird from the box to your (and not yours, too) look are similar to the tail and wings of a raven, then why mention a falcon?
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                The article says that the found flask is not necessarily a falcon, but with a guarantee - of Scandinavian origin, and with a significant degree of probability it is Danish. It's all.

                The article just said that was it. Without honoring the inexperienced reader with evidence of his claim. This is the first thing. Second, if this is a raven, then how to tie it to Rurik, if a falcon is already tied to it? But you are tying Rurik to the Normans. It is quite possible to assume that one Danish "king" had a raven totem sign, while another had a falcon. But again, this is only speculation.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                that in such forms pendants were cast, and the suspension itself (loop for the strap) was naturally located on top. He is not near the tail,

                Yes, I agree, it is possible. It is difficult to determine the dimensions of the investment ring from the photo. And it is impossible to imagine that the suspension hung upside down.
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                What you personally saw in it, I do not know. What you are arguing with is also not entirely clear to me.

                I do not argue, I ask for well-reasoned evidence. If we had a disagreement about the bird from the box, then everyone sees what he sees. But as soon as conclusions are drawn from this - Russia is of Norman origin, then, excuse me, we need strong evidence. And they are not. By the way, your opponents don't have any clear and clear proofs either.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  21 January 2021 13: 07
                  +1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  I don’t understand - if the wings and tail of a bird from the box to your (and not yours, too) look are similar to the tail and wings of a raven, then why mention a falcon?

                  Let's go back to the article:
                  Some researchers believe that the coin depicts a raven - a traditional sign of the Danish Vikings from the time of Ragnar Lodbrok. And, in general, a symbol characteristic of the Scandinavians (remember, crows are Odin's constant companions).
                  Others see in this figure an image of a hunting falcon, believing that a collar is depicted on the bird's neck, and this is a sign of a hunting, that is, a tamed bird.
                  However, both of them, one way or another, agree on one thing - the similarity of these two images is obvious enough that it (the similarity) cannot be simply dismissed.

                  When will you learn to read normally?
                  And where did you get the idea that I personally consider some image as a falcon, and some as a raven? It doesn't matter to me at all. Even if there is a falcon in Ladoga and a raven on the coin (or vice versa!), They don't care similar, made in the same style - Scandinavian.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  It is difficult to determine the dimensions of the investment ring from the photo.

                  Yandex. Request, for example, "Rurik's falcon ladoga". And you will have such a picture:

                  So difficult?
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  conclusions are drawn from this - Russia of Norman origin,

                  This is just one fact. Of course, one cannot draw a conclusion from one fact. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, and their number is constantly growing. And it clearly follows from them that Russia - including of Norman origin, that is, the Normans, along with the Slavs and Finno-Ugrians, took an active part in its formation, formation and development in the first stages, and we all - both you and me - descendants of both one and the other and third. Is it really incomprehensible? The Scandinavians did not create Russia. They participated in its creation.
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 21 January 2021 16: 15
                    -1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master

                    However, both of them, one way or another, agree on one thing - the similarity of these two images is obvious enough that it (the similarity) cannot be simply dismissed.

                    Yes, there are similarities. A bird is depicted here and there. This is where the similarities end.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    values. Even if there is a falcon in Ladoga, and a raven on the coin (or vice versa!), They are still similar, made in the same style - Scandinavian.

                    You want to say that historians know images of birds in, conventionally, Italian, Greek, Arabic, Japanese, etc. styles and exactly for that time period?
                    Thank you for the image of the casting from the discussed investment ring. In this regard, the question is - what do you think, why is the bird's tail ringed?
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    that is, the Normans, along with the Slavs and Finno-Ugrians, took an active part in its formation, formation and development in the early stages

                    Thanks for the fun. In your opinion, the Chukchi, Mordovians, Chechens and others took an active part in the formation and formation of the USSR.
                    No. And the Slavs and Normans and Finno-Ugric peoples are all people. And the people, by themselves, are not capable of creating a state formation. The key question is who was in charge? It is from here that there are so many broken copies on the question - to which ethnic group should Rurik be attributed?
                    By itself, Rurik's belonging to the Normans does not matter. What matters is that Rurik was INVITED FOR THE INABILITY TO RULE ONSELF ...
                    Those. the Slavs are denied the ability to govern themselves. The Slavs are flawed. It is for this reason that passions for the origin of Rurik are so heated.
                    And this is already a political question.
                    Thank you. Not for the article. I didn't like it for imposing unconvincing conclusions. And for polemics with me. I suppose you regret the time spent on me. hi
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      21 January 2021 17: 37
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      the people, by themselves, are not able to create a state formation

                      The state creates precisely the people, or rather, social relations among this people. In other words, upon reaching a certain level of development of society, the emergence of a state is inevitable, before that it is impossible. We can say that the state cannot be created, it can only arise.
                      When the state arose, of which Russia is the heir - generally a controversial topic. In the 830s. there was a "kaganate of the dews", which sent embassies to the emperors. And these ambassadors were received there. There is an opinion that the capital of this kaganate could have been Ladoga (there are others: Kiev, Rostov, for example, or Smolensk, even if there are still layers of the first half of the XNUMXth century not ours, they may find it). If Ladoga - then the arrival of Rurik - just a change of dynasty, a coup d'etat in an already existing state.
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      By itself, Rurik's belonging to the Normans does not matter. What matters is that Rurik was INVITED FOR THE INABILITY TO RULE ONSELF ...
                      Those. the Slavs are denied the ability to govern themselves. The Slavs are flawed. It is for this reason that passions for the origin of Rurik are so heated.

                      This is due to the lack of education and a complex of historical inferiority in some of our compatriots, which they not only experience themselves, but also intensely broadcast to others. During its long history, foreigners have been at the head of our state several times and, in general, coped well. In other states, this also happened systematically. The British have NEVER had a dynasty of their own since the days of King Arthur, who may have been a Roman - and nothing, no complexes, why should we have?
                      Well, we were ruled by a foreigner, the people, the state itself, had its own. Moreover, in the third generation, these "foreigners" were already representatives of the Slavs, despite the Scandinavian blood.
                      1. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 21 January 2021 20: 22
                        -1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        In other words, upon reaching a certain level of development of society, the emergence of a state is inevitable,

                        The level of development of society - yes, this is a universal act. But when you reach a certain level, what happens? Even if by a wave of a magic wand, as I understood you, a state appeared, then someone must wave this wand. It is clear that we are not talking about the emergence of a full-fledged state, but only about its beginnings. You seem to be not a Marxist, but you deny the role of personality. And without it, nothing happens. The personality either drives society towards progress or towards regression. We are living witnesses of this.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        If Ladoga - then the arrival of Rurik - just a change of dynasty, a coup d'etat in an already existing state.

                        I like this version more for its consistency. Unproven, but quite logical.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        In other states, this also happened systematically. The British have NEVER had a dynasty of their own since the days of King Arthur, who may have been a Roman - and nothing, no complexes, why should we have?

                        Because no country has invited anyone to rule over itself due to the inability to do it themselves. Foreigners took the control rod by force or in other ways.
                        "Our land is abundant, but there is no order in it, come to rule us" Do you believe that? This absurdity is impossible to believe.
                        Well, there was no state. There was a certain union of tribes, or one strong tribe. And what, no one was found to manage it? Was it necessary to invite someone outside?
                        Therefore, 1. Rurik is his guy on the board, and therefore the words "... come to rule us" are fake, in modern terms. Or 2. Rurik seized power by force and then the same words again - a fake. Conclusion - the chronicles in the legend of Rurik cannot be trusted.
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        21 January 2021 22: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        this wand must be given up by someone.

                        Most suitable at the moment. Or, if you like, the luckiest one. And it could have been anyone. It so happened that Rurik became.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        no country invited anyone to rule itself

                        There were such precedents, the same Britain.
                        But we are now arguing not about the circumstances of the vocation, but about Rurik, his ethnicity. I fully admit that there was no "our land ..." and there was no subsequent, that this is a legend. Most likely, they simply offered a tribute for protection, and then decided "let it stay." There were, of course, those who disagreed, but they were "persuaded" by common efforts.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And what, no one was found to manage it?

                        Here are such and such examples, when their own fought to bloody snot, and who was stronger and did not find out and as a result got tired and invited as an arbiter a completely left character "neither ours, nor yours", who eventually strengthened in power - there are plenty of such examples ... Yes, even the election of Mikhail Romanov. I jumped out like the devil from a snuffbox. Or they could have summoned Habsburg (Prince Pozharsky personally wrote letters), only there the family calved for a long time, choosing exactly whom to send to us to rule. We would have hurried - instead of the Romanovs, we would have had the Habsburgs.
                        As for Marxism, on the contrary, I consider its theory of formations to be the most adequate, and class struggle as the engine of progress. And he never even hid it. For me, this is how the personality does not move society, but either contributes to its movement, or prevents it more or less successfully, depending on the abilities. And society is moving by itself and exclusively in the direction and at such a speed that the desire for survival dictates to it.
                      3. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 22 January 2021 11: 33
                        -1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Most likely, they simply offered a tribute for the protection, and then decided "let it stay."

                        What do you mean "simple"? Such things are not done just like that. There were good reasons for that. Either suddenly (?) A strong adversary * formed, or for some reason (what?) They themselves weakened and then - yes, appeal for help. But who do they usually turn to for help? To relatives. To the tribe of your LANGUAGE. And they could not but be. It remains to find out - in (conditionally) Ladoga, who were the "leading" ethnic groups? Slavs, Normans or some incomprehensible Finno-Ugric people?
                        * Who can be a "strong opponent" for Ladoga? (When I call Ladoga, I mean the vast area in that area)
                        If not offhand, then - the Normans. (By the way, do you know what the words meant: Viking, Varangian, Norman in the 9th century?)
                        Chernigov? Smolensk? Unlikely. Long away. And the Normans are nearby (waterways)
                        Think about it. You, historians, and cards in hand. Only without speculation !!!
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        And society is moving by itself and exclusively in the direction and at such a speed that the desire for survival dictates to it.

                        Eco carried you ...
                        Society moved, moved (by itself lol) and then Lenin appears on the stage and ... changes both the vector of motion and speed.
                        And Stalin's collectivization, industrialization, too - "the movement of society in itself"?
                        No, dear, without PERSONALITIES, without PASSIONARY, we would still live in caves today.
                        Thank you for the dialogue. hi
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        22 January 2021 13: 33
                        0
                        You're welcome. hi
                        It’s interesting with you - you ask, and not assert without proof.
                        There are quite adequate hypotheses for most of your questions in historical science.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        It remains to find out - in (conditionally) Ladoga, who were the "leading" ethnic groups?

                        At that time, they were definitely Scandinavians. About 70% of finds.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Who can be a "strong opponent" for Ladoga?

                        The one who had just been kicked out and given no tribute, of course. He will certainly want to return and get his own. Not in a year, so in two.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But who do they usually turn to for help? To relatives.

                        In Ladoga, both Norwegian and Swedish (mainly), and Danish (probably the least) presence are recorded - there they had a special funeral rite, a mixture of pagan and Christian. This, please note, along with Slavic and Finno-Ugric. In general, there were enough "friends". Decide with strangers.
                        If we assume that the Swedes were kicked out before that, then the Norwegians or Danes should be called. If Norwegians - then Swedes or Danes. If Danes - then we call Swedes or Norwegians. The only thing - to call the Slavs or the Finns is useless - they had neither sensible (professional) weapons, nor, accordingly, squads at that time, (they are not archaeologically recorded), which means they could only give the militia, and only for a short time .. It is not known when the villains will come. Conclusion: you need a leader with a squad, and such were only the Scandinavians at that time and in that place. That's all. It remains to choose the most suitable candidate and agree on the price.
                        And "to rule us" is most likely a later rethinking of events by the chronicler who tried to "legitimize" the dynasty that has been ruling for a couple of centuries. Say, we were called to "rule" and we rule.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Do you know what the words meant: Viking, Varangian, Norman in the 9th century?

                        Me not. And you too. There are several hypotheses about this, but no one can say for sure. Unless, according to the Normans, there is a more or less unanimous opinion - "a man from the north" for Europe. But it is difficult to say whether representatives of, for example, the Anglo-Saxon nobility were among the "Normans" or whether they were exclusively Scandinavians.
                      5. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 22 January 2021 18: 26
                        -1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master

                        It’s interesting with you - you ask, and not assert without proof.

                        How can I, a layman in history, say anything? Even the knowledge that the school gave me, the independent study of the works of certain historians (incidentally, a haphazard study) is questioned. Therefore, I do not trust some artifacts more, but logic.
                        Let's imagine for a second a global cataclysm. The earthly civilization has died. it is not known how long a new civilization appeared and its archaeologists, excavating the ruins of Moscow, will decide from artifacts, for example, the remains of cars, that it was mainly Germans and Japanese who lived in Moscow. How do you like this prospect?
                        Quote: Trilobite Master

                        In Ladoga, both Norwegian and Swedish (mainly) and Danish (probably the least) presence are recorded -

                        Are you saying that in the 9th century there was already a clear division into Swedes, Norwegians and Danes? Frankly speaking, I'm amazed.
                        The Swedes, having created their statehood as early as the 16th century, can claim to be the creators of the foundations of the Russian state in the 9th century? And the Danes? Same. We couldn't do it for ourselves, so let's create the Rus, so what?
                        Well, all this does not fit with logic.
                        So, Rurik may have been, but not as a creator of the state, but simply as a military leader (voivode) of a tribe (union of tribes) somewhere out there, in the Ladoga region.
                        I doubt that any discoveries are possible that will shed light on this mystery.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        The only thing - it's useless to call the Slavs or the Finns - they had neither sensible (professional) weapons, nor, accordingly, no squads at that time,

                        And this did not prevent them, the local, in your own words, to expel someone (?) To win the battle (?). Someone is - well-armed Swedes, or Danes, or Norwegians. ?????
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Me not. And you too.

                        I would have known, I would not have asked. Immutable hi
                      6. Trilobite Master
                        22 January 2021 21: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        was there a clear division into Swedes, Norwegians and Danes?

                        There were a number of craft centers with their own traditions of making something. These centers were located in modern Sweden, Norway, etc. and their products differed from each other in some characteristics peculiar only to them. More details can be found in G.S. Lebedev. It is by these signs that archaeologists judge their origin.
                        For example, ten brooches of the same type were found in the conditional Oslo and two of the same type in the conditional Ladoga. Plus, a workshop with semi-finished products of these brooches or the remains of casting molds was also discovered in Oslo, which means they were made there. If there is no such thing in Ladoga, then they brought it from Oslo.
                        The finds in Ladoga have their counterparts in Sweden and Norway and Denmark. There was also its own production in Ladoga - the flask, which served as the reason for the article, was found during the excavation of the foundry, among other wastes of the foundry. But her style suggests that the craftsman who made it adhered to the Scandinavian fine arts traditions.
                        And among the Danes, as I already wrote, even the funeral rite itself was significantly different - many of them were already baptized at that time, although they did not renounce paganism either. A sort of double belief.
                        Regarding your example with machines, just yesterday I wrote about this on the same thread. My profile has a message for yesterday from 12:42 pm. smile
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Swedes, having created their statehood already in the 16th century

                        In the XNUMXth century, only fifty years later than us. And the fact that the state arose later for them than for us (earlier for the Danes than for us, but insignificantly), just says only that the personality here, in fact, plays almost no role, the environment is important.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        So, Rurik may have been, but not as a creator of the state, but simply as a military leader (voivode) of a tribe (union of tribes) somewhere out there, in the Ladoga region.

                        This is what I am trying to convey to people. He is just a military leader, who, by chance, became the ancestor of not even a state, but a dynasty that survived the further struggle. If Askold and Dir were more agile and hacked Oleg and baby Igor on the banks of the Dnieper (they had such an opportunity), we would not have been Rurik (and no one would have known this word), but Askold. Or if Olga had a girl, not a boy, after Igor's death, she would have married the Drevlyan Mal, as she was offered, - they would have been on the throne of Malichi.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And this did not stop them, the local, in your words, to expel someone

                        Of course. The city of Ladoga is one thing. Scandinavians lived in it - many, most. But around the village, in which lived exclusively Slavic farmers. Together there were many more of them, dozens of times, but they could not get together often and for a short time - they had to work, otherwise they could die of hunger. Not for long - just enough to expel someone. And then they could not sit and wait for this someone to return with their friends. Therefore, Rurik was needed.
                        Thank you for your communication - it helped me well to understand the logic of people who fiercely argue with the Norman theory. Your example clearly shows that you are simply unfamiliar with this theory in its truly scientific form, and you operate with information gleaned from sources far from science, in which the main provisions of this theory are distorted beyond recognition and presented in the most unattractive form. In fact, you are fighting not with modern science (although you accuse it of lying), but with propaganda. Fomenko, Klesov and other clowns, they are innumerable, telling you about the Norman theory, in fact retell Goebbels, passing off his fabrications as the modern position of historians, although this position has nothing in common with Goebbels.
                        Apparently, it is necessary to write articles not on refutation of anti-Normanists, but on enlightenment about Norman theory.
                        Thanks again.
                        hi
                      7. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 23 January 2021 00: 59
                        -1
                        Forgive me for my importunity, if I'm bored or too busy, do not answer, I will understand.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        But her style suggests that the craftsman who made it adhered to the Scandinavian fine arts traditions.

                        And this is a reason to think that the master is a Scandinavian?
                        And what if a Slavic master, who studied with a Scandinavian, came to Ladoga and opened "his own business"?
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        If Askold and Dir were more agile and hacked Oleg and baby Igor on the banks of the Dnieper (they had such an opportunity), we would not have Rurik (and the words

                        Well, where did you get such confidence? I mean "had such an opportunity" Just did not have such an opportunity. Nobody gives up power just like that. Not now, not even before.
                        Simple everyday logic.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Or if Olga was born a girl, not a boy, after Igor's death she would marry the Drevlyan Mal, as she was offered, - they would be on the throne of Malichi.

                        I agree here - an heir is needed. And once there was an heir. then why would she have to obey some Mal? She herself could subdue.
                        Logics.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master

                        Of course. The city of Ladoga is one thing. Scandinavians lived in it - many, most. But around the village, in which lived exclusively Slavic farmers. Together there were many more of them, dozens of times, but they could gather infrequently and for a short time - they had to work, otherwise one could die of hunger. Not for long - just enough to expel someone.

                        And here I do not understand anything.
                        Initially, the area was inhabited by Slavic farmers. Then the Scandinavians came there and built a city in which they began to live. What was the relationship between the locals and the outsiders?
                        If the locals were tributaries, then the newcomers were the "roof", in modern terms.
                        And now the "jarl" from Luga is attacked by the "jarl" from, conventionally, Oslo, so what?
                        With what fright will a Slavic farmer fight on the side of a "roof", but a stranger and expel the "Jarl" from Oslo? Does he care who pay tribute to? "These" Yarlov's "showdowns do not concern me and I am not going to risk my life for any of them" - so thought a normal, unarmed, agricultural Slav.
                        No logic
                        And if no one attacked anyone, and the farmers were tired of the "roof" and they drove it out? What for? To again ask some "Jarl" Rurik to become a "roof"? And what did the new "roof" promise to be better than the old one?
                        There is no logic.
                        If you don't mind, I'll continue tomorrow. hi
                      8. Trilobite Master
                        23 January 2021 12: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And this is a reason to think that the master is a Scandinavian?

                        Unconditional. You keep forgetting that archaeological finds always lie in the context. smile A person who lives in a long Scandinavian house, uses Scandinavian household items and practices a Scandinavian art school, most likely a Scandinavian. smile Even if by origin he is a Slav (let's say!), He is still the carrier and distributor of Scandinavian culture.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well, where did you get such confidence?

                        There is no certainty. If we proceed from the chronicle, Oleg killed them by cunning, deceived them, posing as a merchant, summoned them to the banks of the Dnieper and killed them. It is unlikely that, posing as a merchant, he kept a large armed squad with him and it is unlikely that Askold would have gone ashore alone to the armed men.
                        Yes, actually, that's not the point. Both Oleg and Igor could have died a hundred times each from any of the most prosaic reasons. I wrote this to the fact that Rurik and Rurik is an accident. Anyone could have been in their place, but the state would have taken place anyway.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And here I do not understand anything.

                        I see the picture like this.
                        At the beginning of the IX century. the lands around Ilmen and along the banks of the Volkhov, Luga, Msta and other rivers were inhabited mainly by Slavs. In the floodplains of these rivers, it was convenient to engage in agriculture. Away from rivers, in forests, on the shores of lakes, Finnish settlements were located. Mainly fishermen and hunters lived in them. Scandinavian trading posts were founded on the trade routes in convenient places, performing two functions - a permanent trade mission and a customs point. Gradually these points turned into cities and became glorified, but by the 850s. this process has just begun. Ladoga is a typical and largest of these cities.
                        All three peoples lived relatively peacefully - there was nothing special to share, each was doing his own thing, constantly communicating with each other, trading. The tribal foremen (elders) of the Slavs and Finns, apparently, had their permanent missions in shopping centers, and most likely already lived in Ladoga themselves. They found there, like Slavic houses, and precisely that they were not easy, so that the Slavic communities also received their benefits and profits from this trade.
                        In these cities, a lot of money was accumulated from transit trade and customs duties. There were those who wanted to pocket this money, to impose a tribute. Ladoga. apparently, at first it was more profitable to pay than to fight. But in the courtyard there is the height of the Viking Age, there are many discoveries, you cannot feed everyone, but they still walk and walk. Here are the next and asked, as they say, "out" by the whole world. Maybe they behaved arrogantly, maybe they asked for a lot, maybe they were simply not the first ones this year, or maybe they agreed on ensuring security from the rest of the same, but did not fulfill their obligations. Actually, who to pay is all the same, the main thing is that he does not oppress himself and protect from others. The former "guards" imposed themselves, but now, they say, we ourselves will choose whom to pay. Let's go for Rurik! Hey guys, who knows Rurik? Well, I know, I traded with him - a normal man, he keeps his word. Yes, and so cool - many are afraid of him and everyone respects. Well, what are we calling? We are calling!
                        Something like that. smile
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 18 January 2021 12: 27
    +1
    Quote: Bar1
    um, Christians usually do not dig the earth at all. True Christians / Abramites lead this process, i.e. graze the flock.

    With what fright did the "Abramites" become Christians? And since they reject circumcision, it will not work to attribute them to "true historians" either.
  • depressant
    depressant 18 January 2021 13: 46
    +7
    To be completely honest and frank, the first thing that came to mind, looking at all these tridents and diving falcons, - bah, it's a collective farm pitchfork! Those same pitchforks, which are familiar to me from visual contact with agricultural production. But in order not to traumatize our respected colleagues, who entered into a clinch with each other at a high and noble level of historical science, she quietly kept silent about the impression she had received.
    However, the question was relentlessly pursued: where did the forks from the ancient Russian collective farmers come from? Maybe they piled on some technically advanced invader, the owner of a battle trident, and, having improved the trophy, used it for tedding hay? I went to see the tridents already at the Sarmatians. And for sure! There are dagger guards twisting to the handle in the form of kites, and the notorious battle tridents, and what is not shown - already eyes have run up, many miracles have been discovered by archaeologists! Apparently, a trident is the best way to hit large fish, even in the sea, even in a continental reservoir. And the guards in the form of birds are an association with the noted way of hunting for fish in birds. And since the ancestors lived on a land that did not suffer from the absence of reservoirs filled with large, fatty and very tasty fish in those days - beyond all measure, then, I believe, they came to the trident quite spontaneously and independently.
    Neptune also had a trident - and for catching fish for food (he ate something, and, presumably, not beef), and for defense, and as a symbol of his power.
    Here! Weapon! Weapon is a symbol of power.
    The only question is, could the collective farm trident in the form of a pitchfork, unable to emit lightning, be a symbol of the power of the ruling dynasty?
    In any case, one must assume that even in those ancient times, collective farmers could lift anyone on a pitchfork. But for the prince it is not comme il faut. Or maybe populism? And quietly - alteration in a falcon.
    Please treat with understanding !! wassat ((((( belay ))))
    1. Keer
      Keer 18 January 2021 19: 06
      +3
      Neptune burst beef, but at the expense of fish - it is unknown.
      Poseidon alone persisted in chasing Odysseus,
      Godlike husband, until he reached his homeland.
      But at the time he was in a remote land of the Ethiopians
      (Extreme people, settled in two ways: one where it descends
      Light-bearing God, others, where he rises), so that there from the people
      25 Lush obese bulls and rams take on the hecatomb.
      There he, sitting at a feast, was merry;
      1. depressant
        depressant 18 January 2021 19: 33
        +3
        Colleague Keer, are you sure that fish was not served at that feast specifically for Poseidon's tastes? Homer couldn't know everything)))
        1. Keer
          Keer 18 January 2021 20: 03
          +2
          The menu says: meat hecatomb (from beef and lamb)
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 19 January 2021 05: 52
        +3
        And rightly so, how many kilks would have to be used for fun. And the Greeks respected the Master of the Seas. The sea is a bad joke.
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 10: 01
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      Please treat with understanding !!

      Reacted with understanding, but the pitchfork has four teeth. hi
      1. depressant
        depressant 20 January 2021 11: 19
        +2
        So after all, I'm not a collective farmer, hehe! My acquaintance with agricultural production is purely visual, and I emphasized it)))
        And a practical ancient Swiss and a reaper - he is also a gamer on a pipe! By the totality of his skills, he is extremely savvy. I figured it out, made R&D, and made such a thing so that the hay would not slip through the pitchfork, but obediently folded into a shock. In other words, he improved the gadget to the state of a four-pronged pitchfork. And the administrative apparatus is pleased, because without equivocation from the side of the plebs, you can calmly declare a trident as a falcon and vice versa)))
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 12: 02
          0
          Quote: depressant
          So after all, I'm not a collective farmer,

          So do I. But, Yakovlevna clicked on my nose. Serves me right, you bore.
          I know that initially, when the pitchforks were made of wood, they were mostly two-pronged. There were also three-toothed ones. Yours faithfully hi
  • ee2100
    ee2100 18 January 2021 13: 46
    +6
    The question, as always, ran into the Norman and anti-Norman theory. I, like some other visitors to this site, do not care.
    The fact that in antiquity there were extensive ties not only with close neighbors is a fact. How the Scandinavians could settle in the area of ​​residence of the Slavic tribes and vice versa.
    Searched but did not find a BBC film about the excavation on the island of Gotland in the Visby area. I watched it about 10 years ago. Archaeologists have unearthed a Viking cemetery and according to DNA taken in the dental canal it was found that about 50% of the buried had so-called. eastern genes (they were called Tatar). So draw your conclusions. No one in the West falls into a stupor from this fact.
    Below is a link to a fairly recent article
    https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-54221532
    The author expressed his vision of this issue, which means he came to this thinking about the available facts. Super!
    Articles of this level on this site are very rare. Thanks to Michael again.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 13: 51
      +7
      The fact that in antiquity there were extensive ties not only with close neighbors is a fact.

      In Staraya Ladoga, the museum is full of artifacts - yes, Arab coins and so on. That is, the "way from the Varangians to the Greeks" functioned, and how!
      Articles of this level on this site are very rare. Thanks to Michael again.

      I will fully join you. These are not "anyhow" slabby articles, but really - the work done. yes
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 13: 58
      +5
      The question, as always, ran into the Norman and anti-Norman theory. I, like some other visitors to this site, do not care.
      I support! Just wondering.
      1. depressant
        depressant 18 January 2021 16: 13
        +5
        Dear colleagues, Arkaim is interesting to me. It was necessary to make a road. Formal requirements forced the local authorities to send at least someone there for a superficial archaeological survey. Schoolchildren, students and several full-time professionals arrived. We dug, stumbled upon Arkaim. And now there are excavations on an area of ​​350 km × 100 km, a whole country, dozens of cities similar to Arkaim.
        I would like to know in more detail what they have dug up and how to evaluate it. And for Misha to cover this topic, there is also a whole layer of extremely interesting history.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 January 2021 16: 30
          +5
          Arch
          Lyudmila Yakovlevna! For heaven's sake, don’t push it!
          There are so many profanities around this settlement that RenTV cannot handle in life!
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 January 2021 16: 45
            +5
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Arch
            Lyudmila Yakovlevna! For heaven's sake, don’t push it!
            There are so many profanities around this settlement,

            Arkaim: there is nothing particularly sensational there.
            Well, horror, horror, but not horror, horror! wassat
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 January 2021 16: 58
              +4
              Here I am about the same!
              1. depressant
                depressant 18 January 2021 17: 45
                +4
                Well, you are all boring! )))
                Well, let's say I will study it myself. So what? I’m not a professional, I’ll pick up speculative versions. However, I see that your interest is focused on the princely dynasties.
                Here is Rurik for you!
                Meanwhile, ancient Novgorod was practically exterminated after the Moscow conquest at the end of the XNUMXth century. The descendants of ordinary Novgorodians, if they exist, do not know about it. And their language is incomprehensible to us. And the last names? Chermny, Voiborzovich, Lugotinits, Lever, Podvoisky - what is it like, eh? If there are such surnames now, then they are just coincidences with Novgorod ones!
                But you all proceed from the fact that

                "... all the monarchs of Europe and noble European families are descended from the Ruriks. Their descendants are even the presidents of America, as well as Obama himself, who became a descendant of Anna Yaroslavna. A huge number of actors, artists, politicians have roots precisely from the Ruriks and even do not suspect such a historical fact of origin from the Russian lands. But it is quite difficult to study your origin, because all references to Ruriks are practically interrupted after the 10th century. All that remains for people is just to guess about their “princely” past. "

                Isn't it a secret hope that some of you are a descendant of Rurik compels you to turn to this topic again and again? wassat
                lol )))))
                This is so flattering!
                It's all the same to me whether I had Rurik in my family or not)))
                Or is there something else that I don’t understand underlies this interest?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 January 2021 17: 50
                  +8
                  Well, you are all boring! )))
                  Personally, I never hid it!
                  All men are divided into bores and slobs. But, here is such a gender paradox: women love slovens, but prefer to give birth to children from bores.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 18 January 2021 17: 59
                    +4
                    Well, it's impossible to talk to you seriously! ))))
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 07
                      +4
                      Well why ??? I propose a topic: features of the construction of multi-level structures from gypsum board.
                      "Do you want to talk about it?" (C) laughing
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 18 January 2021 18: 24
                        +4
                        Only after the disclosure of the secret meaning of the abbreviation GKL. And then you get into something like that, rub yourself off later! )))
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 18: 42
                        +4
                        Plasterboard sheet.
                        I thought you were focusing on the last phrase ...
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 18 January 2021 19: 14
                        +3
                        Well, I knew it! crying (((
                        Hope it's not very offensive?!?
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 18
                        +4
                        Oh, leave it, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Insult me, you need to try hard!
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 18 January 2021 19: 25
                        +5
                        Well, you are slippery, Anton! I'm talking about myself, about my highly developed self-esteem and global significance, and he transfers the arrows of the scales to himself! How does it feel, huh?!?
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 33
                        +3
                        I used to translate "arrows" aimed at women on myself. You perceive me somewhat exaggerated.
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 18 January 2021 19: 47
                        +4
                        Wherever you go, and he is still downwind! Cunning and clever!
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 55
                        +5
                        "Yes, I am a jester, I am a circus performer! So what ?!" (FROM)
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 20: 07
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                Well, I knew it! (((
                Hope it's not very offensive?!?

                My friend works there. On Gips-Knauf. I really don't understand why the largest gypsum deposit was sold to the Germans.
              3. depressant
                depressant 18 January 2021 20: 29
                +4
                So, it's still offensive ... It turns out that there is nothing that has not been sold to the side. The cause of Nicholas II lives on and wins.
              4. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 January 2021 20: 47
                +4
                So it's still offensive ...
                Oh-wei, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! So you don't accentuate your influence on Deripaska at the moment of the sale of Rusal's assets, do you?
              5. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 20: 48
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                The cause of Nicholas II lives on and wins.

                Gorbachev began with his comrade societies. The Americans were delighted and bought everything. Let me give you an example. We had an artel "The Third Five-Year Plan". After Khrushch made it a state-owned enterprise. Under Gorby, a comradely society with the Americans became. Well, under Yeltsin, the Americans bought everything. The plant is now called Procter & Gamble.
              6. depressant
                depressant 18 January 2021 22: 01
                +5
                And in front of me is the building of the former radar research institute, forged the shield of the Motherland. Now the paint is poured into plastic containers there. In one place the components are mixed together, then they are poured. Such is the division of labor, and everywhere in the village there are milestones in history. The former club, where the researchers were having fun, has been converted into trade shops. The gigantic radar has stood by the church for many years, ownerless. Then, they say, they sawed him and handed him over for scrap. In the former kindergarten - housing office. There was a good large dining room, it was demolished, some private owner built a private hotel in its place, surrounded by a three-meter fence. For the new, 2019th year, the rich came there and annealed them with fireworks.
                Signs ... Signs of decline in life, loss of purpose and tone. And Lenin looks at all this on the square, they either did not dare to demolish it, or just in case they left it - life is changeable.
              7. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 22: 04
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                Signs ... Signs of Decline in Life

                And we closed all 4 cinemas. And in one of them they made a church, and in the other - a night tavern.
              8. depressant
                depressant 18 January 2021 22: 58
                +5
                Once I went online and decided to see my city from a past life. He's by the sea, so people come, shoot a video, this is now accepted. I hesitated for a long time, then, worried, I opened ...
                It was a huge psychological trauma, I will never do this again. For a whole month I came to my senses, unable to get rid of the dreary sensations, the nature of which I still cannot understand. Perhaps this is the aggravated feeling of loss of a past life, its final deletion from my biography. Worse than amnesia.
                The skeletons of empty high-rise buildings with gaping windows, ruins, among which separate decent houses of local "nouveau riche" appear absurdly, and again ruins, desolation. The streets are deserted, only isolated places are recognizable, everything is wild, alien. Everywhere there are remnants of decaying equipment, thrown at random. Started back in Soviet times and since then, frozen, decayed construction sites. The once cheerful, compact town with several good sanatoriums, beautiful shady parks, cinemas and many cafes, with tens of thousands of tourists, has turned into a ghost inhabited by rare zombies, into a bad dream. Very scary. As if I got into another dimension, into another life that I did not have. I was just looking for my home. Did not find.
              9. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 23: 00
                +4
                Quote: depressant
                The once cheerful, compact town with several good sanatoriums, beautiful shady parks, cinemas and many cafes, with tens of thousands of tourists, has turned into a ghost inhabited by rare zombies, into a bad dream.

                Abkhazia?
              10. depressant
                depressant 18 January 2021 23: 50
                +4
                Well, yes, Abkhazia. Just please, please don't ask for the name of the city. This was my life, and it is not. It probably looks like amputation of a part of the body. It's like asking what exactly was amputated.
              11. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 23: 52
                +2
                Quote: depressant
                Well, yes, Abkhazia. Just please, please don't ask for the name of the city.

                I’ll guess it myself. hi
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 18 January 2021 18: 59
    +4
    Quote: depressant
    And the last names? Chermny, Voiborzovich, Lugotinits, Lever, Podvoisky - what is it like, eh?

    Here you open up a lot of space for creativity, for example, you can recall such representatives of the Novgorod nobility of the late 15th - early 16th centuries as D.V. Shchenyu, I.F.Lyapun Ushaty, I.F.Gundor Paletsky or among the Rostov princes I. Bryukho Puzhbolsky, mentioned in 1496. or, for example, the appanage prince VI Kaplyu Ukhtomsky. A low-ranking voivode is mentioned by I.B. Sample Blue. Personally, I am sympathetic to the tiun Oladya Shishmarev, he had a son - the Runaway, that is, the Runaway Oladevich turns out ... hi
    1. depressant
      depressant 18 January 2021 19: 19
      +6
      Colleague!!!
      Sample Blue, and only him!
      And that's how it turns out: you dig a story, and there it is soooooooooooooooooooooo!
      As for the present, I believe that Shifonier Tapkovich is still alive in Abkhazia, and this is not a joke, although "hee hee!" asks))))
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 21: 17
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        Chiffonier Tapkovich

        Seriously?
        1. depressant
          depressant 18 January 2021 22: 08
          +5
          Absolutely! )))
          For example, such female names: Doll, Tsatsa, Babusya, Kakasha. The old generation. We heard how the soldiers of the tsarist army addressed them, thought they were names, they did not know the language. Then the Soviet generations were called so, and even further - they learned Russian. All of them today - Angela, Aida, Viola and other foreign ones.
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 22: 11
          +3
          Quote: depressant
          Doll, Tsatsa, Granny, Kakasha.

          laughing That's it, I gurgled .... laughing
        3. depressant
          depressant 18 January 2021 22: 27
          +4
          And for us it was somehow familiar. For example, I had a friend, a very nice elderly lady - Babusya Basakovna. This is such surrealism. Echoes of history in names.
        4. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 22: 43
          +3
          Quote: depressant
          Babusya Basakovna.

          I think that it was the names of the street children that were invented. There are still funny people. laughing Well, what parent would call their offspring grandmothers? I have a friend, his name is Frol, so he is still offended by his mother because of this name. Although he is already under fifty dollars.
        5. depressant
          depressant 19 January 2021 00: 17
          +4
          Abkhazians do not have street children, no matter what happens. There will always be a relative, albeit a very distant one. The child will be taken away and brought up as their own. That's why they are strong.
        6. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 19 January 2021 00: 26
          +2
          Quote: depressant
          Abkhazians do not have street children, no matter what happens. There will always be a relative, albeit a very distant one. The child will be taken away and brought up as their own. That's why they are strong.

          I agree. I am aware that in the Caucasus it is considered a shame to abandon one's relatives. It is a pity that this is not quite the case here. Although the Israelis are even worse. With pleasure, their relatives are sent to nursing homes. Like they feel good there.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 19 January 2021 08: 00
    +3
    For example, Tsutsa from "Date Tutashkhia".
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 25
    +4
    Bravo, Sergey! I assumed you were a carefully disguised professional, but was unsure. Admit it, we started with Kirpichnikov!
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 18 January 2021 19: 30
      +5
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Admit it, we started with Kirpichnikov!

      No, I did not study at the Department of Archeology, although I entered the Faculty of History in order to become an archeologist, but I did not become one, I graduated from the Department of History of Ancient Rus.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 41
        +4
        The further, the more. Well, you must admit, I could not, because of my sophistication and piquancy, ask: who are you?, As recommended by some comrades ...
        Now that all the points above the "and" are dotted, I will ask: and who do you have Vaschenko?
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 19: 43
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        The further, the more. Well, you must admit, I could not, because of my sophistication and piquancy, ask: who are you?, As recommended by some comrades ...
        Now that all the points above the "and" are dotted, I will ask: and who do you have Vaschenko?

        I'll write to you in a personal
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 January 2021 19: 47
        +5
        Well, actually, my gamble also assumed this result.
      4. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 17: 12
        +3
        Well, actually, my gamble also assumed this result.

        "Well, you are a slippery type, Anton!" (Depressant - Lyudmila Yakovlevna) lol
      5. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 19 January 2021 17: 18
        +3
        "The one-eyed but pretty night has filled up the sunset,
        It smells like rabbit soup from grandfather Mazai,
        Laying a completely burnt daughter on the floor from the stove,
        I crawl out with a shotgun on the path.

        Wander through the swamps, check the mushroom spots
        Let my soul warm up to the stars
        Yes, in conscience, you need to fix the cop grave,
        That spring scared me with a shot in the air.

        Chorus: Oh, the trouble with the boots,
        And since spring I have completely worn out
        Oh, you could have it yourself
        I would not have ruined them in vain.

        Wild boars and bears are riding in the collective farm garden,
        The owl wears its swan song.
        Shuns me - he knows, bastard, when, never get.
        Well, I'm not in a hurry, it's more interesting with him.

        In these heavens I know how many moons are counted.
        Already a long time ago put his hut on the edge.
        I treated myself like a shitty sorcerer
        Turned into shit, but how back - I do not know.

        The trouble with the boots ...
        Since spring, I have completely worn out.
        We would shoot ourselves
        So I would not have ruined them in vain.

        I'll sit there, smoke, and go back,
        Emboldened by a sip of moonshine.
        Yes, I’ll look at the tract, there in the morning mushroom pickers eat,
        Suddenly, in big boots, there are two more cartridges "(c)
      6. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 17: 30
        +4
        Turned into shit, but how back - I do not know.

        Urgently for personal growth training! lol You don't know yourself - ask Albert! wink
      7. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 19 January 2021 17: 33
        +3
        "Are you kidding me?" (FROM)
      8. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 09: 43
        +3
        "Are you kidding me?" (FROM)

        Not at all. He is a positive person, and there are probably familiar psychotherapists and dentists. wink
        And in general - do not wind yourself up! laughing
      9. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 January 2021 09: 52
        +2
        And most importantly - gynecologists!
      10. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 10: 34
        +1
        And most importantly - gynecologists!

        And even a couple of art critics! yes
      11. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 January 2021 10: 38
        +1
        That Piotrovsky is also a Jew?!?!?!
      12. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 10: 44
        +1
        That Piotrovsky is also a Jew?!?!?!

        Ask him. Maybe a Pole! laughing
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 10: 38
    +3
    The further, the more.

    The more, the stronger.
    Friends are choked with envy
    - I don't care about my friends!
    laughing ("Aria", song "King of the Road") drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 19 January 2021 17: 10
    +3
    Personally, I am sympathetic to the tiun Oladya Shishmarev, he had a son - the Runaway, that is, the Runaway Oladevich turns out ...

    As far as I remember, the first documented Russian scribe was named Ghoul Likhoi, and he lived in Novgorod. By the way, he was a priest! laughing
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 19 January 2021 17: 47
      +3
      Quote: Pane Kohanku
      Ghoul Dashing, and he lived in Novgorod.

      I haven't heard of this comrade, but judging by his name - and for the better ... hi
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 09: 44
        +3
        I haven't heard of this comrade, but judging by his name - and for the better ...

        Type wick. It is believed that he was a foreigner.
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 10: 35
        +2
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        It is believed that he was a foreigner.

        Well what can I say: judging by the name, this character was distinguished by a high degree of humanity, philanthropy and kindness. Meeting him at night meant sending him to Valhala, to his ancestors or to heaven (depending on religion), but in the end he repented, was baptized, became a priest, and even copied church books. Reading a sermon in the newly built cathedral, he looked with love at the flock. wassat
        But seriously, the version of his foreign origin looks quite logical.
        But again, everything is according to sources from the 16th century. hi
      3. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 10: 42
        +2
        but in the end he repented, was baptized, became a priest and even rewrote church books.

        Have you re-educated Sharikov with a kind word and a whip? laughing
      4. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 10: 49
        +2
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        Have you re-educated Sharikov with a kind word and a whip?

        And with a colt, because "this can achieve much more than just a kind word" drinks
      5. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 11: 14
        +1
        And with a colt, because "this can achieve much more than just a kind word"

        Then the Colt was replaced by a six-tailed whip! laughing once - and your ass in half! fellow
      6. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 11: 20
        +2
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        Then the Colt was replaced by a six-tailed whip! laughing times - and your ass in half!

        You can also use the espoton:
      7. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 11: 23
        +2
        You can also use the espoton

        Is the miniature called "Angry Hosts Kicking Out Drunk Guests"? good laughing It is a pity, Pal Petrovich did not see this picture - he would have shed a tear! yes Cannabiha would make me teach this technique. fellow
      8. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 11: 33
        +2
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        Is the miniature called "Angry Hosts Kicking Out Drunk Guests"?

        Here you can offer many options, for example:
        "The Tsar chastises the negligent boyars."
        Or: "a severe reprimand with entry into a personal file ..." wassat
      9. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 January 2021 11: 47
        +2
        Sergei! hi
        And where does the miniature come from? Judging by the painting technique and images of armor, the first half of the 15th century ...
      10. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 11: 53
        +2
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        And where does the miniature come from? Judging by the painting technique and images of armor, the first half of the 15th century ..

        The Hundred Years War, I suppose, I also think the 15th century, but from which list I won't say, you need to look hi
      11. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 11: 57
        +3
        The Hundred Years War, I suppose, I also think the 15th century, but from which list I won't say, you need to look

        Interestingly, the escaper on the right is armed with a rhondash (or even a buckler) and some kind of curved saber with an intricate blade.
      12. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 12: 02
        +2
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        some kind of curved saber with an intricate blade.

        This is a falchion I suppose
      13. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 12: 09
        +3
        This is a falchion I suppose

        It looks like it. I was embarrassed by the edge, but it looks like there were some like that too ...

        “Hercules is destroying the Greek lion population,” Greenpeace weeps.
      14. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 20 January 2021 12: 44
        +1
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        Hercules destroys the Greek lion population, "Greenpeace weeps.

        Here, lions are also quite realistic depicted, unlike most medieval miniatures. I especially like their elephants, for example:
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 20 January 2021 12: 18
      +2
      If we consider the falchion, coupled with the rondash, then the defeated are probably the British, for the weapons mentioned are characteristic of the English archers of that time.
    3. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 20 January 2021 12: 34
      +3
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      If we consider the falchion, coupled with the rondash, then the defeated are probably the British, for the mentioned weapons have been characteristic of English archers since the end of that time.

      Seriously though, the blow to the buttocks actually had a purely practical meaning - this is the most unprotected place for an equestrian knight: as you know, you will not sit on chain mail, so there is a cutout. Of course, we tried to cover it as best they could, but for an infantryman it is very convenient to hit there (the main thing is to fill it up - then we kick in with our feet). The Swiss of course filled up the same Karl the Bold with a halberd, knocking his head in half along with a helmet (he was only identified by his clothes), but at the same time he also had a serious wound in the buttock
    4. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 20 January 2021 12: 52
      +3
      Actually, yes!
      In addition, wounds of adipose tissue do not heal well, and in such cases they make the wounded poorly transportable
    5. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 13: 35
      +1
      but at the same time he also had a serious wound in the buttock

      When our knight-minstrel makes me another indecent proposal (see below), I will buy him an "esponton" in the nearest interesting store, and give him for his birthday. fellow
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 11: 51
    +3
    Or: "a severe reprimand with entry into a personal file ..."

    If the Japanese painted, it could be called "The Death of Uesugi Kenshin." There was a legend that he somehow went to the toilet "for a big", and in the cesspool a ninja killer sat, who with his spear straight "there" and poked ... fellow
    But this is a legend. In fact, Kenshin's associates found him lying on the floor. He was paralyzed and died a few days later. There are reports that he has been drinking a lot lately ... what In general .. "dokensinilsya"! request
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 20 January 2021 12: 03
    +3
    Quote: Pane Kohanku
    But this is a legend. In fact, Kenshin's associates found him lying on the floor. He was paralyzed and died a few days later

    Still, legends are always much more beautiful than a banal and boring reality ... drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 12: 12
    +3
    Still, legends are always much more beautiful than a banal and boring reality ...

    Yes, just like that, another day, imagine such a legendary death of Kenshin (with a spear in the toilet in the ass), and already tears welling up - "How boring I live!" crying drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 20 January 2021 12: 38
    +3
    Do not worry! I can give you this ride the next time I redo the plumbing!
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 12: 51
    +2
    I can give you this ride the next time I redo the plumbing!

    I taught myself to take care of my nerves. stop You can arrange for Timur. laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 20 January 2021 12: 55
    +3
    Well, here we have solved the problem you indicated yesterday! laughing
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 20 January 2021 13: 07
    +2
    Well, here we have solved the problem you indicated yesterday!

    Not funny. stop
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 20 January 2021 18: 54
    -1
    Quote: depressant

    Meanwhile, ancient Novgorod was practically exterminated after the Moscow conquest at the end of the XNUMXth century. Descendants of the simple

    Do not believe, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, do not believe.
  • Trilobite Master
    18 January 2021 18: 50
    +5
    Quote: depressant
    for Misha to cover this topic

    In short - an ordinary settlement of the Bronze Age, of which there are plenty everywhere. Sintashta culture. There are cities that are older, larger and richer. The very name "Arkaim" is modern, as this place called its inhabitants is unknown. The uniqueness of this object is solely in its safety.
    In general, not my circle of interests. There are several excellent videos in the u-tube (by Ivan Semyan) on this topic, I recommend it if you are interested. But I personally don't see anything particularly interesting in this topic. For experts and fans of the Bronze Age, perhaps, but nothing more.
    Although I myself, I remember, put forward a theory that Arkaim is one of the vertices of the magic triangle Alexandria - Arkona - Arkaim, and Arkona is located on the site of modern Petersburg, and the streets diverging from the Admiralty are magic rays: Nevsky Prospect points exactly to Arkaim, Voznesensky - to Alexandria, and Gorokhovaya Street - to Moscow - the center of world evil, just enclosed in this triangle. How do you like that? smile
    1. depressant
      depressant 18 January 2021 19: 40
      +4
      And this is like this to me: I'm in the suburbs, so you, Misha, put me in the center of world evil crying Get it out immediately!
  • Smoke
    Smoke 18 January 2021 14: 54
    +3
    I am not from the galaxy of the last of Fomenko and Nosovsky, I am for the good old Soviet school of historical science. But in all his articles, no convincing evidence has been provided that Rurik was a Norman.
    - About the name of Rurik. Some mythical supposedly linguistic studies of some Melnikova, there weren't even any theses from these studies, just "I said so, there is a study, but what content of this study I will not tell you, because you are stupid and will not master, so believe me on word". Sorry, but NOT CONVINCED;
    - About the generic mark. The same desire to pass off as real: there is incontrovertible evidence, which you yourself cite, that the early Rurikovich themselves and their contemporaries identified them as falcons. A falcon dives on the patrimonial mark, but someone sees two-prongs, some kind of omegas, alphas and Hungarians dragged along, and by "settling" them not in the Urals initially, but on the Volga ... well, and another madhouse - there is some kind of unhealthy desire to take away and lead historical research to a standstill;
    - Well, now. Well a coin. Well, maybe a found cast of an ancient metallurgist foundry worker and really a RAVEN and not a Falcon, and WHAT? Didn't the Scandinavians live in Staraya Ladoga or what? We lived, of course ...
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 18 January 2021 15: 51
    +2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    You, like most, confuse science and journalism. "Correct" interpretation is not science and it is not history. Study history as a science and questions of "correctness" mean absolutely nothing to you.

    As the saying goes, "hunting for fleas" is also not a science. Science is a field of human activity aimed at developing and systematizing objective knowledge about reality. The word "objective" puts many pseudoscientists from history into the category of highly paid (or glory-hungry) charlatans.
    1. Trilobite Master
      18 January 2021 19: 01
      +6
      Quote: pmkemcity
      The word "objective" puts many pseudoscientists from history into the category of highly paid (or glory-hungry) charlatans.

      I agree absolutely, except for the word "many". I would replace it with "everyone."
      But the real scientists, who are principled and disinterested (yes, there are such, and there are a lot of them) are promoting historical science, their opinion is simply difficult for ordinary people to perceive, and there are even fewer good popularizers of historical science than good scientists.
      This year, two very respected specialists by me personally, Anatoly Nikolaevich Kirpichnikov and Tamara Anatolyevna Pushkina, have passed away - a blessed memory of real scientists, of whom many have never even heard.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 18 January 2021 19: 22
        +6
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        This year, two very respected specialists by me personally, Anatoly Nikolaevich Kirpichnikov and Tamara Anatolyevna Pushkina, have passed away - a blessed memory of real scientists, of whom many have never even heard.

        This year, unfortunately, the outstanding historian Igor Yakovlevich Froyanov also passed away.
        Bright memory!
      2. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 19 January 2021 05: 27
        +2
        Very often the very etymology of the word speaks much more than all the sophisticated definitions. Does the word "scientist" really need the prefix "real"? Can a scientist be selfish? Yes! Can a scientist be unprincipled? Obviously not! Any science, school, is built on principles, even the denial of other people's principles, this can be a personal principle of the scientist, as they say - "go to the principle." Can the selfish be principled? Why not? If someone buys your principles, then they can be sold, and you can trade just like that, "out of principle." Can a scientist without pride be “great”? Is it possible to achieve success without a person's arrogance, the belief that he can do everything himself and achieves everything on his own, and not with the help and will of God? Is science sinful, and with it scientists?
        What happened in the morning ... Happy holiday everyone! With the Baptism of the Lord!
        1. Fat
          Fat 19 January 2021 13: 02
          +2
          Quote: pmkemcity
          Does the word "scientist" really need the prefix "real"? Can a scientist be selfish?

          hi Can. The word "scientist" suggests that a person taught, it will never mind that a person is at least something learned yes
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 19 January 2021 13: 32
            +1
            Quote: Thick
            Can. The word "scientist" implies that a person was taught, it will never mean that a person has learned at least something

            "Scientist" but "unscientific" is a sign of a subject, that is, an "adjective", "what?" But the "scientist", about whom they ask "who?", Is already a "noun"! drinks
            1. Fat
              Fat 19 January 2021 13: 55
              +2
              I don't mind much. There used to be a "learned man", he became just a "scientist". There was an ELK, but it became "just an elk" lol drinks
              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 19 January 2021 15: 05
                +2
                Quote: Thick
                There was a "pundit" before

                Subtly noticed! By the way a "learned wife" is something from a house building, like "beloved", in the sense of "beaten". love
  • tacet
    tacet 18 January 2021 15: 57
    +2
    Michael, as for the Pomor Slavs, the Germans tried to capture them for almost 400 years (starting with Charlemagne), from the 10th century the Poles also joined (with the support of Rome). They held out for a surprisingly long time without any support (I don’t consider temporary alliances with the Prussians).
  • sniperino
    sniperino 19 January 2021 00: 07
    +1
    And why the hypothesis of Rurik's Venedian origin was not considered?
  • Sertorius
    Sertorius 19 January 2021 05: 30
    +2
    Thus, the main arguments set forth in the works of the most consistent and authoritative "anti-Normanists" in favor of the hypothesis of Rurik's West Slavic origin should be rejected

    This is strong! Where is Kuzmin, Gedeonov, Ilovaisky there? Zinochka! Into their furnace! laughing Mikhail did a couple of articles!
    As for the cheer tribe, but they, in general, have nothing to be proud of either.
    Like the other tribes of the Pomor Slavs, as well as parts of the Balts, they could not effectively resist the German aggression. And by the middle of the XII century. finally left the historical (and political) arena, being subordinated (and then assimilated) by the Germanic peoples.
    Now their descendants speak German (albeit with some accent) and consider themselves to be Germans.


    Well, statements! request In this logic, all the disappeared states then also have nothing to be proud of. And the poor descendants of the Byzantines generally speak Turkish and consider themselves Turks! So what?
    It would be better for Mikhail to confine himself to the good research done in these articles, but not to make statements on their basis about the last nail in the coffin of the Slavophiles.
    1. Trilobite Master
      19 January 2021 12: 23
      +3
      Quote: Sertorius
      Where is Kuzmin, Gedeonov, Ilovaisky there?

      So I ask - where? There are none.
      Instead of them - Klesov, Fomenko, Zadornov.
      But maybe there are new facts, new arguments in favor of anti-Normanism, at least something fresher than reasoning a century and a half ago? Hey! Maybe there are some findings, research using modern technology, scientific achievements in related disciplines? A? No? No...
      Or maybe I don't know something? Then enlighten me.
      And there is no need to blame Mikhail for the collapse of the concept of anti-Normanism. I, of course, flatter, but here the specialists have worked more thoroughly. So the main questions are for them. laughing
      Quote: Sertorius
      It would be better for Mikhail to confine himself to the good research done in these articles, but not to make statements on their basis about the last nail in the coffin of the Slavophiles.

      "The last nail in the coffin of the Slavophiles"? wassat
      Damn, when did I manage to make such a statement? Isn't that so?
      Thus, the main arguments presented in the works of the most consistent and authoritative "anti-Normanists" in favor of the hypothesis of Rurik's West Slavic origin must be rejected. The very same hypothesis (already weakly argued) is even more in need of additional proof.

      Are you sure, Sertorius, that you read my article? smile
      1. Sertorius
        Sertorius 21 January 2021 06: 00
        0
        Maybe there are some findings, research using modern technology, scientific achievements in related disciplines? A? No? No...

        Drop it! Nothing "reinforced concrete" has long been offered by both sides.
        The dispute itself has already degenerated into a mind game, useful for the most part for students of history. Related disciplines have also been stalled for a long time. Numismatics, onomastics, etc. long ago exhausted arguments. Archeology will never in itself give an answer to the degree of influence of the Scandinians on the process of the formation of Russian statehood.
        In a couple of thousand years my city will be dug up and, by the number of Japanese cars, they will conclude that the Japanese lived here. laughing
        We will probably never know Rurik's ethnicity (which his contemporaries generally did not care about).
        This topic is a swing, which has a purely political connotation. The wind of public inquiries will change - finds, arguments, arguments will immediately appear. While the wind fills the sails of Westernism All this worries me only from the point of view of warm-up for the head. hi
        1. Trilobite Master
          21 January 2021 12: 42
          0
          Quote: Sertorius
          Nothing "reinforced concrete" has long been offered by both sides.

          Ah, so you need "reinforced concrete" ... I don't know, I'm not sure that even a notarized birth certificate of Rurik indicating the exact time, place, and the names of his parents would put an end to these disputes.
          In my opinion, until the 1950s. Normanists and anti-Normanists went, as they say, head to head.
          But then archeology started first - Gnezdovo, Ladoga, Pskov, Novgorod, Rostov, Yaroslavl - Norman finds rushed. Moreover, their context leaves no doubt - it was the Normans of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries who were an elite, privileged class representing the military class. This is the question
          Quote: Sertorius
          Archeology will never in itself give an answer to the degree of influence of the Scandinians on the process of the formation of Russian statehood.

          smile
          Then they found birch bark letters and historical linguistics entered the battle.
          Well, the last science that touched on this issue is genetics.
          And everything somehow right in color, in one gate.
          Have geneticists, linguists and archaeologists agreed among themselves, having arranged a Normanist conspiracy and hiding the truth? Like, now is not the time? And then, when the true patriots of the country come to power, will this truth be sharply revealed?
          Is that what you believe?
          Quote: Sertorius
          In a couple of thousand years my city will be dug up and, by the number of Japanese cars, they will conclude that the Japanese lived here

          am
          I'm tired of this mantra. one of the Fomenkoids invented it and everyone is now repeating it. Archaeologists of the future will figure out who lived where, do not worry. You will not become Japanese. Plants for the production of these machines will be unearthed in Japan and more and more advanced models will be found in Japan itself.
          And in science, the dispute between Normanists and anti-Normanists has long shifted towards a dispute specifically about the influence of the Scandinavians on the formation and development of the Russian state. The Scandinavian origin of Rurik and the word "rus" itself is practically not disputed in the scientific community, especially since these issues are generally insignificant for historians.
  • Cure72
    Cure72 19 January 2021 13: 05
    +2
    And I liked it. Thanks to Michael!
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 19 January 2021 17: 25
    +2
    All the arguments are quite well presented except for this passage:
    First, an attentive observer will immediately notice that the shape of a bird, molded in this shape, will be located with its head up, not down.
    You can find out from what considerations the correct orientation of the image obtained during casting in the given photo was determined? I would like arguments.
    I can imagine him sideways. Anyone.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 19 January 2021 21: 10
    -1
    = First, an attentive observer will immediately notice that the shape of the bird, molded in this shape, will be located with its head up, not down. =
    What is it that the "attentive observer" noticed that gives him reason to assert that "the bird's figure, molded in this shape, will be located with its head up, and not down"?
    Has the author ever seen a raven's wing spread? And the falcon? Compare with the wing shown on the flask.
    = And almost immediately they found an image of a bird very similar to the one that should have come out of this box. =
    Oh really? Compare the "curvature" of the underside of the wing with the flask and the same section of the wing on the coin. Is very similar? The bird's head on the coin is more suitable for a crow, yes.
    In a word, the article is unsubstantiated fabrications. Sorry if offended.
  • kig
    kig 23 January 2021 10: 14
    0
    A striking example of historical science: any event (find, description, legend, artifact) can be interpreted as you like, following one or another (sometimes directly opposite) views (ideas, aspirations, official opinion).